July 23, 2025 • 27 mins
Summary
In this engaging conversation, Dr. Nashay Lowe speaks with Dr. Darrin Theriault, a military veteran and leadership consultant, about the profound impact of leadership on individuals and organizations. They explore the emotional toll of toxic workplaces, the importance of trauma-informed leadership, and the necessity of creating healthier work cultures. Darrin shares his personal journey from the military to academia and consulting, emphasizing the need for leaders to connect with their teams on a personal level. The discussion also delves into the challenges of work-life balance, the distinction between power and control, and the significance of integrity in building a brand.
Key Takeaways
- Leadership can either break or build people.
- Toxic leadership creates a pit in employees' stomachs.
- Emotional labor is draining and often unrecognized.
- Power is often confused with control in leadership.
- People and relationships are crucial in leadership.
- No employee should go to work with a pit in their stomach.
- Building a consulting business requires self-reflection.
- Integrity is essential in branding and leadership.
- Leaders must connect with their teams personally.
- The law of unintended consequences affects decision-making.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Shay (00:02):
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
In this candid and energizingconversation, I sit down with
(00:42):
Darrin Theriault, a militaryveteran, professor, and emerging
leadership consultant whoshares the moment that sparked
his mission, the day he realizedleadership could either break
or build people.
Together, we're going to sitdown and unpack the emotional
cost of toxic workplaces, howtrauma-informed leadership
begins with presence, and whypurpose-driven professionals are
(01:03):
often the ones called to createthe work cultures that they
never had.
From military ranks to facultyoffices to the early days of
building a consulting business,this episode offers powerful
reminders that integrity isscalable, that leadership is
relational, and that healingculture starts from within.
So Darrin, can you pleaseintroduce yourself?
Let everyone know who you areand what you do.
Darrin (01:25):
Sure.
I'm Darrin Theriault.
I took a really incrediblepath, I would say, to get to
where I am.
Coming through high school, Iwas just focused on athletics
and I just did the bare minimumto get by.
And then I kind of figured ifI'm going to have any kind of
life, I need a career.
So I decided to join the Armyafter failing out of college
twice because I was just focusedon sports.
(01:46):
The Army was a watershed momentfor me.
He let me know that withpurpose and motivation and
focus, I could achieve biggerand better things.
And so I had great leadership.
When I was an enlisted soldier,they saw potential in me,
leadership potential in me.
They encouraged me to competefor an Army ROTC scholarship,
(02:06):
which thankfully I earned.
And then I went back tocollege.
I was focused like a laserbeam.
I was in ROTC.
I got commissioned as a secondlieutenant, and then I had a
nice Army career that I'm veryproud of, 23 years.
We're going to talk more aboutthat specifically because that's
what triggered some of thesethoughts I have about
leadership.
And then I got into higher edwhen I retired, and I really
(02:30):
wanted to have the biggestimpact that I possibly could on
students and on the community,so I decided to pursue a
terminal degree.
I earned a PhD from KennesawState University.
And now I'm a professor, asyou've already said.
And I've got this idea thatcollectively we can make the
workplace a healthier place forpeople to go and do their jobs.
(02:51):
Thank
Dr. Shay (02:52):
you for sharing your background.
So talk to me a little bitabout that sort of hit in your
stomach feeling and why thatmoment shaped your leadership
path a little?
Darrin (03:01):
Sure.
During my introduction, youknow, I mentioned that I started
as an enlisted soldier and thenI became an officer.
And up until this point, likemy entire Army journey was
amazing.
Really, I had just positiveleaders for the most part.
And then, but the whole timethat you're an Army ROTC, or if
you're a cadet West Point, or ifyou're going through OCS, the
ways that you can become acommissioned officer, You cannot
(03:24):
wait to get to your first dutystation and to become a platoon
leader.
It's the best job you're evergoing to have.
It's the closest you're evergoing to be to soldiers.
And I couldn't wait.
I found out that I was going toFort Riley, Kansas, 1st
Battalion, 34th Armor Regiment,the Centurions.
And I could not have been moredisappointed.
(03:46):
I was so excited.
I was so eager to get to myplatoon.
And as it turns out, my leader,my company commander was not a
very positive leader.
He's a toxic, abusive leader.
And although I love theexperience of being with my
soldiers in the platoon, I wouldoften drive to work with the
(04:06):
pit in my stomach because I hadno idea how the company
commander was going to treat usthat day.
Dr. Shay (04:13):
So what was that turning point for you where you
were like, I can't continue withthis feeling?
Darrin (04:20):
So there were a few things that kept me positive.
There were a few things thatkept me motivated.
Thankfully, I was very goodfriends with the two other
platoon leaders within thatorganization.
And we collectively said, youknow what, no matter how bad
this guy gets, we will not letit ruin our experience.
We are going to be the bestplatoon leaders that we can be.
We are going to be as positiveas we can be with our soldiers,
(04:43):
with our platoon sergeants.
And we are going to worktogether to And, you know, this
guy could be the worst.
And oftentimes we thought hewas the worst leader in the
army.
And although it wasn't the bestexperience, we didn't let it
completely demoralize us.
Dr. Shay (04:58):
It's such an interesting thing to think about
because I think when people aresurrounded by that type of
leadership, it's sort of justinternalized as this is just how
it is.
And you accept that and eitherend up being the same way.
What made it different for you?
What made you just say thatthere's another way to do this?
Darrin (05:15):
So.
There were times when I wasreally close to just calling it
quits, like just doing my barefour-year or five-year service
obligation because the Army paidfor me to go to school.
So I knew I had to at least dothree or four years, maybe five
years.
But the cool thing about theArmy is that, well, it can be a
good thing and it can be anegative thing sometimes, is
(05:36):
that you rarely have the sameleader for more than 12 to 18
months.
Either you're going somewhereelse or your leader is going
somewhere else.
So it's this constant rotationof leadership.
And ironically, just whateverthe width of a cinder block is,
because all the walls in thecompany headquarters back there
were just cinder block.
It was an old building.
And just on the other side ofthe cinderblock wall from my
(05:58):
company, I was in Bravo Company,134 Armor, and Charlie Company,
C Company, right on the otherside of this wall, had one of
the most amazing, positive,dynamic leaders you could ever
imagine.
And when I got reassigned, Ihad finished my time as a
platoon leader.
They said, hey,congratulations, you did a
pretty good job.
Now we're going to make you theexecutive officer for Charlie
Company.
(06:18):
And when I reported it just onthe other side of that cinder
block wall, it changed.
Like the sun was shining, theunicorns were flying through the
air.
I mean, birds were chirping.
It went from black and white tocolor TV for, you know, high
def.
Just like that, because of theleadership climate, because of
the command climate.
It makes a big difference.
(06:39):
So when I hear people telltheir stories, and it's not
onesie twosie, it's almosteverybody who I talk to, Almost
everybody.
Thankfully, there's some folksout there who love their job.
They're in a very positiveworkspace.
But I would say the majorityare not really digging going to
work.
They have a pit in theirstomach.
So I know the difference thatleadership can make.
(06:59):
And I want to work withleaders.
I want to work with teammembers.
I want to work withorganizations to help.
Let's bring up the climatelevel of the place where people
work.
It's possible.
Dr. Shay (07:09):
Right.
Yeah.
It's just fascinating.
The workplace really isn'tseparate from real life, right?
You spend so much time there.
We spend our highest energyhours at work.
And so when that space is asfunctional, I mean, it doesn't
just affect productivity.
It reshapes your self-worth,your health, your identity.
Getting a little personal here,but can you share anything
(07:32):
about how you...
created either boundariesbetween your work life and home
life during that sort of toxicperiod?
Or just how do you had to learnto create balance between the
two just to survive it while youwere there?
Darrin (07:46):
Yeah, thankfully, I had a great family.
You know, my kids were awesome.
I love being a dad.
And that was my escape, quitehonestly, like I was able to, to
just get away.
So like when I was And Iactually lived on the post,
which is not uncommon.
A lot of folks who havefamilies, they live on the same
installation where they work,where their units are.
But this drive down Custer Hillfrom my headquarters down to
(08:11):
the housing unit that I wasliving in, it was my getaway.
And I refused to just kind ofdwell on some of these things
and let it ruin my family timeand my family space.
So I really didn't get the pituntil I was driving in the next
day.
But not everybody has thatluxury.
In fact, when I talk to people,not only is work part of life,
(08:32):
but that can be a friction pointin relationships because it
affects some people to the pointso much that they can't stop
talking about it.
Like when they get home andthey're with their spouse or
they're with their friend orthey're with their partner, and
all they can do is vent becausethey had such a terrible
experience.
And then the other person'slike, all right, enough of this,
right?
So I think you do have to setboundaries because otherwise it
(08:56):
just becomes a nonstop cycle.
And oftentimes it's a downwardcycle and it just brings you
down.
It wears you in your mentalhealth.
It wears you in your energy.
And a seemingly otherwisepositive person can sink down
into a very negative space ifthey dwell in that space too
long.
Dr. Shay (09:13):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
That part about the unspokenemotional labor that people
carry into the home after theyclock out.
I mean, gosh, that line is sohard to draw though, because,
you know, again, everything youjust went through in the last
eight hours, it's fresh on yourmind.
And you often want to talk tothe one person who is hopefully
your best friend and you want tovent to, which is your partner.
(09:35):
And then, you know, I canimagine that being a sort of
another toxic cycle that's beencreated at home.
Darrin (09:41):
It can be.
Because if that's all you do istalk about work, then the other
person's like, listen, I knowhow important this is to you,
but I got my own problems,right?
So from a relationshipperspective, there can be
healthy ways, tangible wayswhere you can just say, listen,
we get 30 minutes each.
We can talk about work for 30minutes and then let's move on
to something else.
(10:01):
Let's watch a show together.
Let's go for a walk.
Let's go play pickleball.
Let's do anything.
But if that's If work consumesyou, I think that will grind you
down even quicker.
And I'm so glad you brought upthis topic about emotional labor
because it's the hidden labor.
It's very easy if we see afirefighter carrying a heavy
(10:22):
hose and going up and down theladder and pulling these heavy
pieces of equipment around.
Well, that's physical labor.
We see that and we know howdemanding that can be.
And we might say to ourselves,that must make that person
really tired.
Well, emotional labor...
is just as draining if youconstantly have to give of
yourself and you know there'stwo there's two aspects of
(10:45):
emotional labor and the one ithink that uh drains you the
most is this thing calledsurface acting where if the
place where you work if theexpectations are hey you always
have to smile and especially inthe service industry and if
you're behind a counter and theexpectation is as the employee
you always have to smile and theperson across the counter is
(11:07):
really berating you, well, nowyou have to surface act.
Okay, sir.
Okay, ma'am.
Well, let me.
And on the inside, you're justfurious.
That will really wear you down.
So at the end of the day, doingthis all day, you are
completely exhausted.
Dr. Shay (11:23):
That makes perfect sense.
Yeah.
Going back just a little bit,actually, to your toxic work
environment in the military, andmind you, my military knowledge
is very limited.
I understand that world.
Darrin (11:37):
Different
Dr. Shay (11:39):
world, but I imagine similar to other places like in
the corporate sphere as well,power seems to often be confused
with control.
Yeah.
And that confusion creates,again, environments where fear,
not trust, drives behavior.
So where do you think that,where is that mix up coming
(12:00):
from?
Like, why do we just see poweras this control factor?
Darrin (12:05):
Yeah, so in my experience, what I found is
leaders like the first companycommander who I told you about.
I'm not going to say any names.
I'm not about throwing peopleunder the bus.
But it is a fact that ifsomehow this person stumbles
upon this, I hope you're abetter leader now than you were
then, right?
People grow, people change.
Otherwise, why would we havethis podcast?
Why would we have theconsulting that I'm trying to
(12:25):
do?
I believe people can change andgrow and learn.
But this whole thing aboutpower is it's almost a direct
correlation.
is the folks and the type ofleaders who I call the yellers
and the screamers.
And it's not just in themilitary.
It's just as much in thecivilian workforce.
But the folks who put on thispersona and march around and
point their finger because theyjust want that power.
(12:48):
They want to control people.
But what I have found is thatoften they are the most
insecure.
You know, they've gotself-doubt.
And so they feel like they haveto project this extra toughness
or whatever.
What I'm drawn to is we talkabout power, this referent
power.
It's the interpersonal skills.
It's the ability to relate topeople.
My experience, that's whatreally makes people want to
(13:11):
follow.
That's what motivates people towant to go above and beyond.
So if I go back to the firstcompany and the second company
that I was in, the units, theBravo company and the Charlie
company, of course, if mycommander gives me an order, of
course, I'm going to follow thatorder.
Nothing that he ever told us todo was unlawful.
We did it to the best of ourability, but it was a difference
(13:33):
in the new company and thepositive unit, right?
We would do our best and thenwe would find a way to go above
and beyond because the leaderthere, we felt really cared
about us as a person.
And when you can connect withsomebody on that personal level
and it's not just about thebusiness, the workforce, they
will do great things.
They will surprise you.
They will go above and beyondanything you ask them to do.
Dr. Shay (13:57):
Absolutely.
And so, you know, speaking ofthat sort of dynamic, and I
realized we might even be usingthe term leaders kind of
loosely, if I'm being honest,because in my experiences, I've
been shown there is a cleardistinction between leadership
and management.
And I think it's sort ofassumed a lot of times that
because someone's in management,they are good leaders, or, you
(14:18):
know, they are leaders at all,when in reality, people just
naturally move up corporateladder and it makes sense to be
promoted, but very little arethey actually trained or taught
key and core leadership skills.
So can you talk to me a littlebit about the importance of why
people need leaders who see themand not just manage them?
Darrin (14:38):
That's probably the most important thing is the people
aspect of it.
There's a model that I follow.
I'm not saying I invented thisor whatever, but it's people
plus process equals products.
And in the people part is theinterpersonal relationships, the
ability to connect emotionalintelligence, these types of
things.
The process could be anything.
(15:00):
It could be an assembly line.
It could be, you know, abakery.
It could be a dance crew.
It could be the process couldbe anything.
But it's always people.
It takes we put so muchemphasis when we talk about
leadership on authenticleadership, charismatic
leadership, compassionateleadership and all these things.
We can't discount the processpart of it, right?
Being a nice leader is notenough.
(15:22):
Like I also want a leader whoreally knows what the heck
they're doing.
When I was in the army on thefront lines, I wanted my leaders
to also know how to do warfighting and not just be a
really nice person.
Ultimately, that person isboth.
And so one of the, I would saya manager.
This gentleman was in a role asthe executive officer of our
(15:43):
brigade when we went into Iraqin 2003.
He didn't have very strongpeople skills, but his ability
to forecast logistics and hisability to understand
communication systems, he wasthe ideal manager, really.
And that paired up with thecommander who really understood
the people part.
(16:04):
They made this great commandteam partnership because one
really had the people partstrong, And the other one was
very strong in the managementtype of skills.
Dr. Shay (16:14):
Right, right.
And so building on what you'veseen from different types of
leaders, talk to me about howthose lived experiences played
into you building your ownconsulting business.
Darrin (16:26):
So again, I do believe people can change.
The leadership classes that Iteach, I design it very much to
be a leadership developmentcourse.
So they're getting aboutleadership theory, like they're
understanding the terminology.
But I want it to be applicable.
I want them to grow.
So we do these reflectionswhere every week it's an
assignment and they have to readthe assignment and do some type
(16:47):
of survey, either a self-surveyor somebody will do a survey on
them.
And then they reflect on it andthey identify their weaker
areas, which we all have.
The best leaders you can everimagine, my favorite leaders,
they still have weak areas,right?
So leading, becoming a betterleader is all about learning.
It's about being open tounderstanding that you do have
(17:09):
weak areas.
If you think you have just gotit going on as a leader and
there's nothing you can improvein, you're not going to grow.
You're not going to improve.
So that's the first part.
But I do believe people canchange.
Otherwise, why would we even behaving this conversation?
The point of this is that it'sOrgFit360, my consulting
company, which is just gettingoff the ground here, is built on
(17:32):
the fundamental belief that noemployee should ever go to work
with a pit in their stomach.
So I want to work with leaders.
I want to work with teammembers.
And when I talk about the360-degree part of it, it's the
survey tools because oftentimeswe see things from a different
(17:53):
perspective.
And we might be in thatfriction if there's
incongruence, if there's adifference between what you see,
you're the leader, I'm the teammember.
And I'm asking you thesequestions.
How healthy is this workplace?
And you rate it a 10.
It's the healthiest workplace.
What are you talking about?
And I'm the employee or theemployees collectively are
(18:14):
rating it at a two.
Well, that's a huge disconnect.
There is a blind spot that theleaders aren't seeing.
So leaders will take a surveythat's with the same elements in
it, written for them.
And then team members will alsoanswer the same types of
questions.
And then when I do my dataanalysis, because it's very much
(18:34):
data driven, I'm not like juststicking my finger in the wind
and trying to figure it out.
It's going to be data driven.
The important part is to seewhere the disconnects are.
Because that's where the realfriction comes in.
Like something is seriouslywrong here.
If you're seeing it up here andthey're seeing it down here or
vice versa, they're seeing it uphere.
So the point of it is to let'scome to a closer agreement about
(18:57):
where the misunderstandingsare.
Dr. Shay (19:01):
Absolutely.
Definitely have experiencedthat as well.
I think what naturally happens,especially as people move up
the management ladder, is youalmost forget what it was like
to once be in the employee'splace.
So something that you've nowbeen doing for 20 plus years,
it's second nature to you.
And we think that when we givesomeone a one-line instruction
(19:21):
on how to do something, thatthey're just going to know how
to do it at that same level.
And that's just not how itworks when it took you five
years to learn how to do it aswell.
Darrin (19:28):
100%.
100%.
And based on our model, right?
Like it's the same with theplatoon leader.
The day that I stepped foot andmet my platoon, I was at that
very moment, I was the leastexperienced person in that
platoon.
And yet I was the platoonleader.
You know, the private who Iranked, the lieutenant outranks
(19:51):
the private who got there a weekbefore I did, was more
experienced in that platoon thanI was yet.
I was in charge.
So sometimes leaders get to aposition and they never did the
ground level work.
So they can't understand itbecause they never did it.
So now we have to have aconversation because most of
your top management books andresearch is that the solutions
(20:14):
will often be found not in theboardroom, but on the floor of
the plant, so to speak, wherethe workers are.
Dr. Shay (20:20):
Excellent point.
Yes.
Yes.
That's also, yeah, again, ahuge disconnect.
It's just not evenunderstanding what the practical
day-to-day execution lookslike, but the assumption of the
bigger picture idea of what youthink it should look like.
Darrin (20:35):
Absolutely.
I call it the law of unintendedconsequences, right?
If you're sitting way up highand you're making decisions,
uninformed decisions, but youthink it's informed and you
haven't talked to folks from upand down the company, right?
not just the folks in thefloor, middle management, they
see things from a very uniqueperspective.
They're closer to theworkforce, right?
And they're kind of this bufferbetween senior leaders and the
(20:58):
workforce.
If you're not getting feedbackfrom everybody, but especially
the employees, the ones who arereally making it happen every
day, you're going to makedecisions that you think are
great, but come to find out ayear down the road, that was not
the best decision, right?
It's the law of unintendedconsequences.
We thought we were going tocome to this outcome.
(21:18):
But we came to a completelydifferent outcome than none of
us anticipated.
Dr. Shay (21:23):
Right.
So as you're building up yourconsulting firm, talk to me a
little bit about the sort ofemotional process of building a
brand that reflects your values.
Because I know for me, evenstarting off, I underestimated.
You know, I think of myself asa pretty...
introspective person, but Ididn't realize so much of
(21:45):
building the business in thebeginning was going to involve
so much self-reflection.
Like me really buildingsomething that reflects who I
am, my mission, my values, allof these things, right?
It's just kind of, I didn'tthink much about the branding
process of anything, which yourbrand is pretty much your
reputation, right?
Just what people think or howthey feel when they leave a
conversation with you.
So talk to me about thatprocess of building your brand.
Darrin (22:08):
So I was so focused on the technical parts of it, like
the services I'll offer, pricingmodels, all these other things.
I wasn't even thinking aboutthose elements until, believe it
or not, until you and I talked.
And you were the one whoplanted the seed that there's a
very important part that I haveto also think about.
But the word that I'll alwayscome back to is about integrity,
(22:31):
doing things with very highethical standards and having
integrity.
And so when I'm meeting withclients, they have to know that
I'm dealing from a background oftwo very different, but two
institutions that are widelyregarded as being highly
ethical, the military and highereducation.
And so some may debate thehigher education part of that,
(22:56):
but from my experience, all thefolks I've dealt with, the
professors, they're in it forthe students, most of the ones
that...
that I've dealt with.
So my brand is very much basedon being humble.
Of all the personality traits,the one that least resonates
with me is an arrogant person,is kind of a know-it-all.
So I don't want to be aknow-it-all.
(23:16):
I actually want to be alearn-it-all.
I want to learn more and more.
Dr. Shay (23:21):
I love that, a learn-it-all.
Darrin (23:23):
Yeah, I want to be a learn-it-all.
I don't want to be aknow-it-all.
I want to be a learn-it-all.
There's so much to learn.
And so I see it as a win-winsituation when I can get in work
with these companies, work withleaders, work with team
members, work with the entireorganization.
Hopefully, they're going tocreate a more positive, a
healthier work climate, whichwill benefit them because
(23:44):
healthier, more emotionallystable employees are going to be
much more effective, much moreefficient, much more motivated.
And that's actually going toincrease the bottom line more
than them coming in with thehammer and hammering the
workforce.
Dr. Shay (24:01):
Mm-hmm.
Darrin (24:01):
But then through the process, too, certainly I'm
going to learn a lot aboutmyself, a lot about how I can
improve as a leader.
So leadership is one of thesedeals where you pay it forward
all the time.
You know, I picked up thingsfrom you.
Hopefully I can pass thingsalong to other people.
And collectively, we can alllearn and grow from each other.
Dr. Shay (24:19):
That's the goal, right?
Darrin (24:23):
It is.
It is the goal.
So the 360 part of the OrgFit360, I like the image and the
metaphor about This thing isjust a cycle that we can all
grow.
We can all improve.
Dr. Shay (24:33):
Right.
Well, thank you so much,Darren.
It's been a beautifulconversation.
We're going to talk a lot moreafter this.
Darrin (24:40):
Absolutely.
Dr. Shay (24:41):
Can you let everyone know where to find you and
follow your work?
Darrin (24:44):
Sure.
The website is orgfit360.comand look for me.
I recently went to the CobbCounty Chamber of Commerce in
Cobb County, Georgia.
So initially, I'm going to lookto really plug in with some
local folks and then kind ofjust bring it nationally, if you
will.
So one step at a time, a crawl,walk, run.
(25:05):
But I firmly believe that if Ican make just even a small
difference in one person's life,that's worth it for me.
I'm reminded of the story ofthe girl who was walking along
the beach, tossing the starfish.
Maybe you've heard this storybefore.
tossing the starfish.
There's hundreds of starfishalong the beach and she's
(25:25):
putting them back in and thisold man kind of stumbles upon
her and he's wagging his fingerat this young lady.
And she says, or he says,surely you can't make a
difference with all thesestarfish.
And she said, you know what?
Maybe not all of them.
And she bent down and picked upanother one and she tossed it
in the ocean.
But I made a difference withthat one.
So that's what it's all about.
(25:46):
You know, maybe we can't touchevery single life, but if we can
just make a small difference,we're doing something really
meaningful.
Dr. Shay (25:53):
Thank you so
Darrin (25:54):
much.
Yeah, absolutely.
It was a pleasure.
Dr. Shay (25:56):
What stood out most in today's conversation is that
leadership isn't about titles ortactics.
It's about the tone you set,the presence you bring, and the
humanity you uphold.
Darren reminded us that toxicworkplaces don't just damage
morale.
They often leave lasting markson how people see themselves.
(26:17):
But when leaders show up withclarity, care, and courage, the
culture shifts.
If you're in a workplace thatdrains more than it gives,
you're not imagining it, you'renot alone.
If you're in a workplace thatdrains more than it gives,
you're not imagining it, andyou're not alone.
And if you're in a position tolead, even informally, remember,
(26:41):
every small act of respect,transparency, and trust makes a
difference.
Leadership is alwaysrelational, and healing the
workplace starts with the peoplein it.
So if nothing else, let todaybe your reminder that no one
should dread going to work andbuilding something better starts
now.
(27:01):
As always, thank you forjoining me today in the
Resolution Room.
I'm grateful you're here doingthis work alongside me.
If this episode spoke to you,I'd love for you to please
share.
And until next time, keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
(27:22):
s
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
In this candid and energizingconversation, I sit down with
(00:42):
Darrin Theriault, a militaryveteran, professor, and emerging
leadership consultant whoshares the moment that sparked
his mission, the day he realizedleadership could either break
or build people.
Together, we're going to sitdown and unpack the emotional
cost of toxic workplaces, howtrauma-informed leadership
begins with presence, and whypurpose-driven professionals are
(01:03):
often the ones called to createthe work cultures that they
never had.
From military ranks to facultyoffices to the early days of
building a consulting business,this episode offers powerful
reminders that integrity isscalable, that leadership is
relational, and that healingculture starts from within.
So Darrin, can you pleaseintroduce yourself?
Let everyone know who you areand what you do.
Darrin (01:25):
Sure.
I'm Darrin Theriault.
I took a really incrediblepath, I would say, to get to
where I am.
Coming through high school, Iwas just focused on athletics
and I just did the bare minimumto get by.
And then I kind of figured ifI'm going to have any kind of
life, I need a career.
So I decided to join the Armyafter failing out of college
twice because I was just focusedon sports.
(01:46):
The Army was a watershed momentfor me.
He let me know that withpurpose and motivation and
focus, I could achieve biggerand better things.
And so I had great leadership.
When I was an enlisted soldier,they saw potential in me,
leadership potential in me.
They encouraged me to competefor an Army ROTC scholarship,
(02:06):
which thankfully I earned.
And then I went back tocollege.
I was focused like a laserbeam.
I was in ROTC.
I got commissioned as a secondlieutenant, and then I had a
nice Army career that I'm veryproud of, 23 years.
We're going to talk more aboutthat specifically because that's
what triggered some of thesethoughts I have about
leadership.
And then I got into higher edwhen I retired, and I really
(02:30):
wanted to have the biggestimpact that I possibly could on
students and on the community,so I decided to pursue a
terminal degree.
I earned a PhD from KennesawState University.
And now I'm a professor, asyou've already said.
And I've got this idea thatcollectively we can make the
workplace a healthier place forpeople to go and do their jobs.
(02:51):
Thank
Dr. Shay (02:52):
you for sharing your background.
So talk to me a little bitabout that sort of hit in your
stomach feeling and why thatmoment shaped your leadership
path a little?
Darrin (03:01):
Sure.
During my introduction, youknow, I mentioned that I started
as an enlisted soldier and thenI became an officer.
And up until this point, likemy entire Army journey was
amazing.
Really, I had just positiveleaders for the most part.
And then, but the whole timethat you're an Army ROTC, or if
you're a cadet West Point, or ifyou're going through OCS, the
ways that you can become acommissioned officer, You cannot
(03:24):
wait to get to your first dutystation and to become a platoon
leader.
It's the best job you're evergoing to have.
It's the closest you're evergoing to be to soldiers.
And I couldn't wait.
I found out that I was going toFort Riley, Kansas, 1st
Battalion, 34th Armor Regiment,the Centurions.
And I could not have been moredisappointed.
(03:46):
I was so excited.
I was so eager to get to myplatoon.
And as it turns out, my leader,my company commander was not a
very positive leader.
He's a toxic, abusive leader.
And although I love theexperience of being with my
soldiers in the platoon, I wouldoften drive to work with the
(04:06):
pit in my stomach because I hadno idea how the company
commander was going to treat usthat day.
Dr. Shay (04:13):
So what was that turning point for you where you
were like, I can't continue withthis feeling?
Darrin (04:20):
So there were a few things that kept me positive.
There were a few things thatkept me motivated.
Thankfully, I was very goodfriends with the two other
platoon leaders within thatorganization.
And we collectively said, youknow what, no matter how bad
this guy gets, we will not letit ruin our experience.
We are going to be the bestplatoon leaders that we can be.
We are going to be as positiveas we can be with our soldiers,
(04:43):
with our platoon sergeants.
And we are going to worktogether to And, you know, this
guy could be the worst.
And oftentimes we thought hewas the worst leader in the
army.
And although it wasn't the bestexperience, we didn't let it
completely demoralize us.
Dr. Shay (04:58):
It's such an interesting thing to think about
because I think when people aresurrounded by that type of
leadership, it's sort of justinternalized as this is just how
it is.
And you accept that and eitherend up being the same way.
What made it different for you?
What made you just say thatthere's another way to do this?
Darrin (05:15):
So.
There were times when I wasreally close to just calling it
quits, like just doing my barefour-year or five-year service
obligation because the Army paidfor me to go to school.
So I knew I had to at least dothree or four years, maybe five
years.
But the cool thing about theArmy is that, well, it can be a
good thing and it can be anegative thing sometimes, is
(05:36):
that you rarely have the sameleader for more than 12 to 18
months.
Either you're going somewhereelse or your leader is going
somewhere else.
So it's this constant rotationof leadership.
And ironically, just whateverthe width of a cinder block is,
because all the walls in thecompany headquarters back there
were just cinder block.
It was an old building.
And just on the other side ofthe cinderblock wall from my
(05:58):
company, I was in Bravo Company,134 Armor, and Charlie Company,
C Company, right on the otherside of this wall, had one of
the most amazing, positive,dynamic leaders you could ever
imagine.
And when I got reassigned, Ihad finished my time as a
platoon leader.
They said, hey,congratulations, you did a
pretty good job.
Now we're going to make you theexecutive officer for Charlie
Company.
(06:18):
And when I reported it just onthe other side of that cinder
block wall, it changed.
Like the sun was shining, theunicorns were flying through the
air.
I mean, birds were chirping.
It went from black and white tocolor TV for, you know, high
def.
Just like that, because of theleadership climate, because of
the command climate.
It makes a big difference.
(06:39):
So when I hear people telltheir stories, and it's not
onesie twosie, it's almosteverybody who I talk to, Almost
everybody.
Thankfully, there's some folksout there who love their job.
They're in a very positiveworkspace.
But I would say the majorityare not really digging going to
work.
They have a pit in theirstomach.
So I know the difference thatleadership can make.
(06:59):
And I want to work withleaders.
I want to work with teammembers.
I want to work withorganizations to help.
Let's bring up the climatelevel of the place where people
work.
It's possible.
Dr. Shay (07:09):
Right.
Yeah.
It's just fascinating.
The workplace really isn'tseparate from real life, right?
You spend so much time there.
We spend our highest energyhours at work.
And so when that space is asfunctional, I mean, it doesn't
just affect productivity.
It reshapes your self-worth,your health, your identity.
Getting a little personal here,but can you share anything
(07:32):
about how you...
created either boundariesbetween your work life and home
life during that sort of toxicperiod?
Or just how do you had to learnto create balance between the
two just to survive it while youwere there?
Darrin (07:46):
Yeah, thankfully, I had a great family.
You know, my kids were awesome.
I love being a dad.
And that was my escape, quitehonestly, like I was able to, to
just get away.
So like when I was And Iactually lived on the post,
which is not uncommon.
A lot of folks who havefamilies, they live on the same
installation where they work,where their units are.
But this drive down Custer Hillfrom my headquarters down to
(08:11):
the housing unit that I wasliving in, it was my getaway.
And I refused to just kind ofdwell on some of these things
and let it ruin my family timeand my family space.
So I really didn't get the pituntil I was driving in the next
day.
But not everybody has thatluxury.
In fact, when I talk to people,not only is work part of life,
(08:32):
but that can be a friction pointin relationships because it
affects some people to the pointso much that they can't stop
talking about it.
Like when they get home andthey're with their spouse or
they're with their friend orthey're with their partner, and
all they can do is vent becausethey had such a terrible
experience.
And then the other person'slike, all right, enough of this,
right?
So I think you do have to setboundaries because otherwise it
(08:56):
just becomes a nonstop cycle.
And oftentimes it's a downwardcycle and it just brings you
down.
It wears you in your mentalhealth.
It wears you in your energy.
And a seemingly otherwisepositive person can sink down
into a very negative space ifthey dwell in that space too
long.
Dr. Shay (09:13):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
That part about the unspokenemotional labor that people
carry into the home after theyclock out.
I mean, gosh, that line is sohard to draw though, because,
you know, again, everything youjust went through in the last
eight hours, it's fresh on yourmind.
And you often want to talk tothe one person who is hopefully
your best friend and you want tovent to, which is your partner.
(09:35):
And then, you know, I canimagine that being a sort of
another toxic cycle that's beencreated at home.
Darrin (09:41):
It can be.
Because if that's all you do istalk about work, then the other
person's like, listen, I knowhow important this is to you,
but I got my own problems,right?
So from a relationshipperspective, there can be
healthy ways, tangible wayswhere you can just say, listen,
we get 30 minutes each.
We can talk about work for 30minutes and then let's move on
to something else.
(10:01):
Let's watch a show together.
Let's go for a walk.
Let's go play pickleball.
Let's do anything.
But if that's If work consumesyou, I think that will grind you
down even quicker.
And I'm so glad you brought upthis topic about emotional labor
because it's the hidden labor.
It's very easy if we see afirefighter carrying a heavy
(10:22):
hose and going up and down theladder and pulling these heavy
pieces of equipment around.
Well, that's physical labor.
We see that and we know howdemanding that can be.
And we might say to ourselves,that must make that person
really tired.
Well, emotional labor...
is just as draining if youconstantly have to give of
yourself and you know there'stwo there's two aspects of
(10:45):
emotional labor and the one ithink that uh drains you the
most is this thing calledsurface acting where if the
place where you work if theexpectations are hey you always
have to smile and especially inthe service industry and if
you're behind a counter and theexpectation is as the employee
you always have to smile and theperson across the counter is
(11:07):
really berating you, well, nowyou have to surface act.
Okay, sir.
Okay, ma'am.
Well, let me.
And on the inside, you're justfurious.
That will really wear you down.
So at the end of the day, doingthis all day, you are
completely exhausted.
Dr. Shay (11:23):
That makes perfect sense.
Yeah.
Going back just a little bit,actually, to your toxic work
environment in the military, andmind you, my military knowledge
is very limited.
I understand that world.
Darrin (11:37):
Different
Dr. Shay (11:39):
world, but I imagine similar to other places like in
the corporate sphere as well,power seems to often be confused
with control.
Yeah.
And that confusion creates,again, environments where fear,
not trust, drives behavior.
So where do you think that,where is that mix up coming
(12:00):
from?
Like, why do we just see poweras this control factor?
Darrin (12:05):
Yeah, so in my experience, what I found is
leaders like the first companycommander who I told you about.
I'm not going to say any names.
I'm not about throwing peopleunder the bus.
But it is a fact that ifsomehow this person stumbles
upon this, I hope you're abetter leader now than you were
then, right?
People grow, people change.
Otherwise, why would we havethis podcast?
Why would we have theconsulting that I'm trying to
(12:25):
do?
I believe people can change andgrow and learn.
But this whole thing aboutpower is it's almost a direct
correlation.
is the folks and the type ofleaders who I call the yellers
and the screamers.
And it's not just in themilitary.
It's just as much in thecivilian workforce.
But the folks who put on thispersona and march around and
point their finger because theyjust want that power.
(12:48):
They want to control people.
But what I have found is thatoften they are the most
insecure.
You know, they've gotself-doubt.
And so they feel like they haveto project this extra toughness
or whatever.
What I'm drawn to is we talkabout power, this referent
power.
It's the interpersonal skills.
It's the ability to relate topeople.
My experience, that's whatreally makes people want to
(13:11):
follow.
That's what motivates people towant to go above and beyond.
So if I go back to the firstcompany and the second company
that I was in, the units, theBravo company and the Charlie
company, of course, if mycommander gives me an order, of
course, I'm going to follow thatorder.
Nothing that he ever told us todo was unlawful.
We did it to the best of ourability, but it was a difference
(13:33):
in the new company and thepositive unit, right?
We would do our best and thenwe would find a way to go above
and beyond because the leaderthere, we felt really cared
about us as a person.
And when you can connect withsomebody on that personal level
and it's not just about thebusiness, the workforce, they
will do great things.
They will surprise you.
They will go above and beyondanything you ask them to do.
Dr. Shay (13:57):
Absolutely.
And so, you know, speaking ofthat sort of dynamic, and I
realized we might even be usingthe term leaders kind of
loosely, if I'm being honest,because in my experiences, I've
been shown there is a cleardistinction between leadership
and management.
And I think it's sort ofassumed a lot of times that
because someone's in management,they are good leaders, or, you
(14:18):
know, they are leaders at all,when in reality, people just
naturally move up corporateladder and it makes sense to be
promoted, but very little arethey actually trained or taught
key and core leadership skills.
So can you talk to me a littlebit about the importance of why
people need leaders who see themand not just manage them?
Darrin (14:38):
That's probably the most important thing is the people
aspect of it.
There's a model that I follow.
I'm not saying I invented thisor whatever, but it's people
plus process equals products.
And in the people part is theinterpersonal relationships, the
ability to connect emotionalintelligence, these types of
things.
The process could be anything.
(15:00):
It could be an assembly line.
It could be, you know, abakery.
It could be a dance crew.
It could be the process couldbe anything.
But it's always people.
It takes we put so muchemphasis when we talk about
leadership on authenticleadership, charismatic
leadership, compassionateleadership and all these things.
We can't discount the processpart of it, right?
Being a nice leader is notenough.
(15:22):
Like I also want a leader whoreally knows what the heck
they're doing.
When I was in the army on thefront lines, I wanted my leaders
to also know how to do warfighting and not just be a
really nice person.
Ultimately, that person isboth.
And so one of the, I would saya manager.
This gentleman was in a role asthe executive officer of our
(15:43):
brigade when we went into Iraqin 2003.
He didn't have very strongpeople skills, but his ability
to forecast logistics and hisability to understand
communication systems, he wasthe ideal manager, really.
And that paired up with thecommander who really understood
the people part.
(16:04):
They made this great commandteam partnership because one
really had the people partstrong, And the other one was
very strong in the managementtype of skills.
Dr. Shay (16:14):
Right, right.
And so building on what you'veseen from different types of
leaders, talk to me about howthose lived experiences played
into you building your ownconsulting business.
Darrin (16:26):
So again, I do believe people can change.
The leadership classes that Iteach, I design it very much to
be a leadership developmentcourse.
So they're getting aboutleadership theory, like they're
understanding the terminology.
But I want it to be applicable.
I want them to grow.
So we do these reflectionswhere every week it's an
assignment and they have to readthe assignment and do some type
(16:47):
of survey, either a self-surveyor somebody will do a survey on
them.
And then they reflect on it andthey identify their weaker
areas, which we all have.
The best leaders you can everimagine, my favorite leaders,
they still have weak areas,right?
So leading, becoming a betterleader is all about learning.
It's about being open tounderstanding that you do have
(17:09):
weak areas.
If you think you have just gotit going on as a leader and
there's nothing you can improvein, you're not going to grow.
You're not going to improve.
So that's the first part.
But I do believe people canchange.
Otherwise, why would we even behaving this conversation?
The point of this is that it'sOrgFit360, my consulting
company, which is just gettingoff the ground here, is built on
(17:32):
the fundamental belief that noemployee should ever go to work
with a pit in their stomach.
So I want to work with leaders.
I want to work with teammembers.
And when I talk about the360-degree part of it, it's the
survey tools because oftentimeswe see things from a different
(17:53):
perspective.
And we might be in thatfriction if there's
incongruence, if there's adifference between what you see,
you're the leader, I'm the teammember.
And I'm asking you thesequestions.
How healthy is this workplace?
And you rate it a 10.
It's the healthiest workplace.
What are you talking about?
And I'm the employee or theemployees collectively are
(18:14):
rating it at a two.
Well, that's a huge disconnect.
There is a blind spot that theleaders aren't seeing.
So leaders will take a surveythat's with the same elements in
it, written for them.
And then team members will alsoanswer the same types of
questions.
And then when I do my dataanalysis, because it's very much
(18:34):
data driven, I'm not like juststicking my finger in the wind
and trying to figure it out.
It's going to be data driven.
The important part is to seewhere the disconnects are.
Because that's where the realfriction comes in.
Like something is seriouslywrong here.
If you're seeing it up here andthey're seeing it down here or
vice versa, they're seeing it uphere.
So the point of it is to let'scome to a closer agreement about
(18:57):
where the misunderstandingsare.
Dr. Shay (19:01):
Absolutely.
Definitely have experiencedthat as well.
I think what naturally happens,especially as people move up
the management ladder, is youalmost forget what it was like
to once be in the employee'splace.
So something that you've nowbeen doing for 20 plus years,
it's second nature to you.
And we think that when we givesomeone a one-line instruction
(19:21):
on how to do something, thatthey're just going to know how
to do it at that same level.
And that's just not how itworks when it took you five
years to learn how to do it aswell.
Darrin (19:28):
100%.
100%.
And based on our model, right?
Like it's the same with theplatoon leader.
The day that I stepped foot andmet my platoon, I was at that
very moment, I was the leastexperienced person in that
platoon.
And yet I was the platoonleader.
You know, the private who Iranked, the lieutenant outranks
(19:51):
the private who got there a weekbefore I did, was more
experienced in that platoon thanI was yet.
I was in charge.
So sometimes leaders get to aposition and they never did the
ground level work.
So they can't understand itbecause they never did it.
So now we have to have aconversation because most of
your top management books andresearch is that the solutions
(20:14):
will often be found not in theboardroom, but on the floor of
the plant, so to speak, wherethe workers are.
Dr. Shay (20:20):
Excellent point.
Yes.
Yes.
That's also, yeah, again, ahuge disconnect.
It's just not evenunderstanding what the practical
day-to-day execution lookslike, but the assumption of the
bigger picture idea of what youthink it should look like.
Darrin (20:35):
Absolutely.
I call it the law of unintendedconsequences, right?
If you're sitting way up highand you're making decisions,
uninformed decisions, but youthink it's informed and you
haven't talked to folks from upand down the company, right?
not just the folks in thefloor, middle management, they
see things from a very uniqueperspective.
They're closer to theworkforce, right?
And they're kind of this bufferbetween senior leaders and the
(20:58):
workforce.
If you're not getting feedbackfrom everybody, but especially
the employees, the ones who arereally making it happen every
day, you're going to makedecisions that you think are
great, but come to find out ayear down the road, that was not
the best decision, right?
It's the law of unintendedconsequences.
We thought we were going tocome to this outcome.
(21:18):
But we came to a completelydifferent outcome than none of
us anticipated.
Dr. Shay (21:23):
Right.
So as you're building up yourconsulting firm, talk to me a
little bit about the sort ofemotional process of building a
brand that reflects your values.
Because I know for me, evenstarting off, I underestimated.
You know, I think of myself asa pretty...
introspective person, but Ididn't realize so much of
(21:45):
building the business in thebeginning was going to involve
so much self-reflection.
Like me really buildingsomething that reflects who I
am, my mission, my values, allof these things, right?
It's just kind of, I didn'tthink much about the branding
process of anything, which yourbrand is pretty much your
reputation, right?
Just what people think or howthey feel when they leave a
conversation with you.
So talk to me about thatprocess of building your brand.
Darrin (22:08):
So I was so focused on the technical parts of it, like
the services I'll offer, pricingmodels, all these other things.
I wasn't even thinking aboutthose elements until, believe it
or not, until you and I talked.
And you were the one whoplanted the seed that there's a
very important part that I haveto also think about.
But the word that I'll alwayscome back to is about integrity,
(22:31):
doing things with very highethical standards and having
integrity.
And so when I'm meeting withclients, they have to know that
I'm dealing from a background oftwo very different, but two
institutions that are widelyregarded as being highly
ethical, the military and highereducation.
And so some may debate thehigher education part of that,
(22:56):
but from my experience, all thefolks I've dealt with, the
professors, they're in it forthe students, most of the ones
that...
that I've dealt with.
So my brand is very much basedon being humble.
Of all the personality traits,the one that least resonates
with me is an arrogant person,is kind of a know-it-all.
So I don't want to be aknow-it-all.
(23:16):
I actually want to be alearn-it-all.
I want to learn more and more.
Dr. Shay (23:21):
I love that, a learn-it-all.
Darrin (23:23):
Yeah, I want to be a learn-it-all.
I don't want to be aknow-it-all.
I want to be a learn-it-all.
There's so much to learn.
And so I see it as a win-winsituation when I can get in work
with these companies, work withleaders, work with team
members, work with the entireorganization.
Hopefully, they're going tocreate a more positive, a
healthier work climate, whichwill benefit them because
(23:44):
healthier, more emotionallystable employees are going to be
much more effective, much moreefficient, much more motivated.
And that's actually going toincrease the bottom line more
than them coming in with thehammer and hammering the
workforce.
Dr. Shay (24:01):
Mm-hmm.
Darrin (24:01):
But then through the process, too, certainly I'm
going to learn a lot aboutmyself, a lot about how I can
improve as a leader.
So leadership is one of thesedeals where you pay it forward
all the time.
You know, I picked up thingsfrom you.
Hopefully I can pass thingsalong to other people.
And collectively, we can alllearn and grow from each other.
Dr. Shay (24:19):
That's the goal, right?
Darrin (24:23):
It is.
It is the goal.
So the 360 part of the OrgFit360, I like the image and the
metaphor about This thing isjust a cycle that we can all
grow.
We can all improve.
Dr. Shay (24:33):
Right.
Well, thank you so much,Darren.
It's been a beautifulconversation.
We're going to talk a lot moreafter this.
Darrin (24:40):
Absolutely.
Dr. Shay (24:41):
Can you let everyone know where to find you and
follow your work?
Darrin (24:44):
Sure.
The website is orgfit360.comand look for me.
I recently went to the CobbCounty Chamber of Commerce in
Cobb County, Georgia.
So initially, I'm going to lookto really plug in with some
local folks and then kind ofjust bring it nationally, if you
will.
So one step at a time, a crawl,walk, run.
(25:05):
But I firmly believe that if Ican make just even a small
difference in one person's life,that's worth it for me.
I'm reminded of the story ofthe girl who was walking along
the beach, tossing the starfish.
Maybe you've heard this storybefore.
tossing the starfish.
There's hundreds of starfishalong the beach and she's
(25:25):
putting them back in and thisold man kind of stumbles upon
her and he's wagging his fingerat this young lady.
And she says, or he says,surely you can't make a
difference with all thesestarfish.
And she said, you know what?
Maybe not all of them.
And she bent down and picked upanother one and she tossed it
in the ocean.
But I made a difference withthat one.
So that's what it's all about.
(25:46):
You know, maybe we can't touchevery single life, but if we can
just make a small difference,we're doing something really
meaningful.
Dr. Shay (25:53):
Thank you so
Darrin (25:54):
much.
Yeah, absolutely.
It was a pleasure.
Dr. Shay (25:56):
What stood out most in today's conversation is that
leadership isn't about titles ortactics.
It's about the tone you set,the presence you bring, and the
humanity you uphold.
Darren reminded us that toxicworkplaces don't just damage
morale.
They often leave lasting markson how people see themselves.
(26:17):
But when leaders show up withclarity, care, and courage, the
culture shifts.
If you're in a workplace thatdrains more than it gives,
you're not imagining it, you'renot alone.
If you're in a workplace thatdrains more than it gives,
you're not imagining it, andyou're not alone.
And if you're in a position tolead, even informally, remember,
(26:41):
every small act of respect,transparency, and trust makes a
difference.
Leadership is alwaysrelational, and healing the
workplace starts with the peoplein it.
So if nothing else, let todaybe your reminder that no one
should dread going to work andbuilding something better starts
now.
(27:01):
As always, thank you forjoining me today in the
Resolution Room.
I'm grateful you're here doingthis work alongside me.
If this episode spoke to you,I'd love for you to please
share.
And until next time, keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
(27:22):
s
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