August 27, 2025 • 43 mins
Summary
In this conversation, Steve Afra, a managing partner at Nvestor Funding, shares his extensive experience in private lending, discussing the nuances between private and hard money lending, the importance of risk management, and how to evaluate potential borrowers. He reflects on the emotional aspects of real estate transactions, the significance of vision in investment success, and the lessons learned about money and resilience in entrepreneurship. Steve emphasizes the need for consistency in business and the generational differences in understanding money, ultimately highlighting the importance of personal growth and resilience in navigating the challenges of entrepreneurship.
Key Takeaways
- Steve has over 30 years of experience in lending.
- The distinction between private lending and hard money lending is often misunderstood.
- Building trust in lending requires taking the high road and doing the right thing.
- Risk management is crucial in lending, especially in fluctuating markets.
- Evaluating a borrower's track record is essential for making informed lending decisions.
- Affordable housing remains a strong investment, even in recessionary times.
- Vision is key for investors looking to succeed in real estate.
- Emotions can negatively impact real estate transactions and decision-making.
- Money should be viewed as energy, and negative energy can lead to negative outcomes.
- Consistency in business practices is vital for long-term success.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Shay (00:01):
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
There's a story behind everysale, and sometimes the biggest
risk isn't the money, it's themirror.
(00:44):
In this episode, I sit downwith Steve Afra, an investor,
private lender, and quiet forcein the real estate world for
over 30 years.
Long before real estate becamea buzzword online, Steve was
navigating the tension betweengut instinct and spreadsheets,
learning what trust reallycosts, and betting on people
(01:04):
when the banks wouldn't.
But this conversation goes farbeyond square footage and
interest rates.
Together we unpack what riskreally means, how perception
shapes power, how money movesthrough identity and emotion,
and what it looks like to play along game in a world obsessed
with short wins.
This is an episode about realestate, yes, but it's also about
(01:25):
leverage, leadership, andlearning how to see value where
others only see volatility.
Steve, can you please introduceyourself to the audience?
Steve Afra (01:33):
So I'm Steve Afra.
I am the managing partner ofInvestor Funding.
Investor Funding is a nationalprivate money firm that lends
money to different types of realestate investors.
And Let's say if they're tryingto do fix and flip, ground to
construction, or long-termrental financing.
(01:54):
That's it in a nutshell.
Dr. Shay (01:57):
That was a very good summary.
Thank you.
So you've been in privatelending for over 30 years,
right?
Steve Afra (02:02):
I've been in lending for over 30 years.
I've been in private lendingnow for the better part of five
years.
Dr. Shay (02:09):
Okay.
And so this predates socialmedia, of course.
Yes.
And this is before it made it atrending topic.
So what got you into this work?
Steve Afra (02:19):
What got me into lending or private lending?
Dr. Shay (02:21):
Let's do both.
Steve Afra (02:22):
So lending, I kind of fell into, I was 17 and it
was the summer.
And I worked for a bigrestaurant in New York.
It was an Italian restaurant.
And I was a ballet parkerthere.
I was making a lot of money.
But that work was just on theweekend.
(02:46):
So it was Friday night.
Saturday and Sunday.
And I was a valet parkingmanager then.
17, that was a big shot, makinga ton of money.
But we were making good money.
And during the week, I was justrelaxing, doing nothing.
And my mom wasn't having it.
She was like, you're notstaying home.
There's no way.
Like, you have to go find ajob.
(03:06):
I'm like, I have a job.
I run the valet parking at thisrestaurant.
I make a ton of money on theweekends.
And she said, no.
You know, her best friend, wasthe executive vice president of
the largest mortgage bank backthen.
And she said, well, she'slooking for someone to help her.
(03:27):
You're working there.
And that was it.
And that's how it started.
And her best friend is like asecond mom to me.
So I started working there andI caught the mortgage banking
bug.
Dr. Shay (03:41):
Yeah.
And then, so what was like yourvery first big deal and what
did you learn from that?
Steve Afra (03:48):
My first big deal.
I tell people this, it wasn'treally that fascinating, right?
My first deal, the first dealthat I ever closed originated
came from my father.
My father was a big fix andflipper back then, a big
developer.
He was working with themortgage company that I was
(04:08):
working for, and the owner ofthat mortgage company, who, God
rest his soul, just passed away,said, his name was Jacob, he
said, this deal is coming infrom your dad, why don't you go
and originate the deal?
I had no idea.
I didn't know what I was doing.
And I went.
I learned how to take a loanapplication on the spot.
(04:30):
And when the deal closed, theygave me 50 bucks.
Dr. Shay (04:35):
So
Steve Afra (04:36):
that was it.
Dr. Shay (04:37):
Okay.
And I like that you...
But that was your first bigdeal or your first deal?
Steve Afra (04:42):
First deal.
Dr. Shay (04:42):
Okay.
That
Steve Afra (04:43):
was my first deal.
Dr. Shay (04:43):
Okay.
Steve Afra (04:44):
That's a first big deal.
Dr. Shay (04:45):
That's a big deal.
Steve Afra (04:46):
That's a big deal.
You know, your firstorigination.
Would you figure it'd be moreglamorous?
I could tell you I sat thereand made tons of money, but no.
Yeah.
It wasn't like that when I wasgrowing up.
And whatever they gave you, youwere gracious and grateful for
taking whatever it was.
Is
Dr. Shay (04:59):
there anything from that deal that you learned that
you took with you later on?
Steve Afra (05:04):
Couldn't tell you?
No, no, not that particulardeal.
There are other deals that I,you know, but you remember
things for different reasons inmy business.
More it's for some of thelosses that you took, some of
the gains that you took, right?
So yeah, unfortunately.
Dr. Shay (05:23):
Yeah, so what do you think people misunderstand most
about what you do?
Steve Afra (05:28):
What people misunderstand most is Is that
they don't understand thedifference between private
lending and hard money lendingand that's kind of been meshed
together but historicallyspeaking hard money lending was
for people that had a Hardship,that's where the term hard money
(05:49):
comes from And it was forpeople I more than others where
let's say they were in some sortof distress, right?
And they needed money in a badway because they had hardship,
hence hard money.
And now things have changed andthey kind of interchange it and
(06:11):
they'll say, well, you know,I'm in a foreclosure, can you
help me?
And I'll tell them, no, that'sa hard money lender.
I'm a private money lender.
And that's the difference.
So private money is...
basically for people that arewithin the real estate
investment world.
That's what private money isfor.
(06:33):
So we just help real estateinvestors.
And it could be, you can haveexperience, but on the fix the
flip side, you don't even needexperience.
So if you don't haveexperience, you could come and
we'll lend you money.
But it has to be asset-based.
Dr. Shay (06:50):
I see, I see.
Was there ever a moment youalmost walked away from doing
this work?
Steve Afra (06:56):
Yes.
I don't even think it was bychoice.
We had that mortgage meltdownin 2008.
I think everybody wanted towalk away.
But what ended up happening isthe bigger you were in the
business back then, the more ofa leopard you were looked upon
because everybody blamed you foreverything that happened,
(07:18):
right?
And so you were unemployable.
You really couldn't do anythingbecause as soon as they would
look at your resume and they sawthat you had mortgage banking
and you were a mortgage banker,you were kind of the enemy of
the state, right?
It was, oh, you were the badguy, you did this, and that's
(07:39):
how you were kind of lookedupon.
Dr. Shay (07:41):
Interesting point too.
So having to navigate that kindof reputation that was beyond
your control, like how do youbuild trust in an industry where
people are often skeptical?
Steve Afra (07:52):
So how you build trust in any industry is no
matter what, even if people areskeptical, you have to take the
high road.
You always have to try and dothe right thing.
Right.
And that catches up to you bothways.
If you don't do the rightthing, it's going to catch up to
you.
And if you do the right thing,it's going to catch up to you in
(08:13):
a positive way.
So what I've always done, I'vealways tried to do the right
thing, always in business.
Even though it's hurt mepersonally in the short run,
it's always kind of helped me inthe long run.
Dr. Shay (08:28):
Right, right.
And reflecting on your career,what does risk mean to you today
in this business?
And how has that evolved foryou over time?
Steve Afra (08:38):
If you speak to my wife, she says it hasn't
evolved.
You know, I'm always, whenyou're lending money, you're
always taking some sort of risk,right?
But I think the type of riskthat we're taking now and with
the types of projects that wetake risk on, we make sure that,
God forbid, if things go south,there's enough room, right,
(09:04):
where...
we're really not going to takethat much of a loss if we take a
loss.
That's kind of evolved, whichobviously is better.
I think when I was in theregular side of the business,
and let's say I was an FHAlender and people were putting
3% down and getting an FHA loan,there's not much room for risk,
(09:29):
right?
Because if that loan goes badand you have to kind of, you
know, take the losses onsomething like that, you're
gonna take a heavier loss.
Dr. Shay (09:40):
And I guess going a little deeper on how do you
determine whether someone isworth betting on?
Steve Afra (09:48):
Really their experience, right?
So we look at the track recordand we really look for like for
like kind of track record,right?
So if the guys put up three orfour, homes in affordable
housing and he wants to go builda $5 million mansion, we're
(10:12):
kind of like, I'm sorry, this isnot like for like, right?
However, the reverse could be,if someone has put up $5 million
mansions and they want to godabble in affordable housing,
you kind of like, well, you knowwhat?
He's put up five, $6 millionhomes.
If he's putting up 300,$400,000 homes, the risk is a
(10:34):
lot less because you know he'shandled larger projects.
Dr. Shay (10:39):
I see, I see.
And so you funded luxury homes,like you said, short-term
rentals and everything inbetween.
So what does luxury real estatereveal about how people define
success?
Steve Afra (10:53):
So I think really it depends on what type of luxury,
right?
Believe it or not, I think alot of people...
who are buying the luxuryhomes, and I'm talking 7 million
plus, they kind of want to beunknown.
Like they don't want people toknow.
(11:14):
It's kind of people that are inthe 2 million to let's say $5
million mark, where they kind offlaunt that a lot more.
But in terms of my business, Icould tell you something about
risk with that type of business.
In a market that we're in todaywhere interest rates are still
(11:35):
high, there's two markets that Itell my builders that we really
like.
It's the affordable housingmarket because people that are
looking for affordable housing,whether rates are high or
whether rates are low, it reallydoesn't affect them.
They care more about what is mypayment and to have an
(11:56):
opportunity to actually buy ahome.
Dr. Shay (11:59):
Right.
Steve Afra (12:00):
That's most important to them.
And they care about thepayment.
What's my payment?
Not, you know, it could be 7%,8% rate.
It really, you know, they getthe opportunity and they want to
know what the payment is tomake sure that they could afford
the payment.
And if they could afford thepayment, they're going to take
that opportunity, which isgreat.
So in an environment like this,I always say, you know,
(12:23):
affordable housing is fantastic.
In any environment, I actuallylike affordable housing.
I think it's recession-proof,it's everything-proof.
And it only gets hotter whenthe rates are better.
It's a fantastic market.
The other market that I reallylike that's recession-proof is
complete unaffordable housing.
(12:44):
So people who are buying homes,let's say 5 million plus,
because they're buying it incash.
And in an environment likethis, they're getting deals on
the type of properties that theywanna buy.
So they're gonna buy thoseproperties undervalued.
And I see that all the time.
So we have a lot of luxurybuilders today that are sitting
(13:07):
on some properties and whenthey're getting cash offers, the
cash offers are coming in$500,000, $250,000 below market
value.
And they're taking them becausethey don't have a choice.
They have to take them.
Dr. Shay (13:23):
I see.
And so when we're looking atthe difference between It sounds
like people who come to you whojust look rich versus being
wealthy.
What have you learned about thedifference between those two
types of clients?
Steve Afra (13:37):
So in real estate, especially real estate
investments, if people havemoney in the bank, usually
they're not that savvy in realestate.
Most of my builders, because ofthe type of savvy builders, I
should say, because the type ofbusiness that they do, they're
(13:59):
always cash poor.
They just don't have enoughmoney because they're involved
in so many real estate deals.
And when you're involved in somany real estate deals, it sucks
up all your liquidity.
And If you come across abuilder that says he's an avid,
very avid builder, activebuilder, and if you look at
(14:21):
their bank account and they'resitting on a couple of million
dollars, you know that it's nottrue.
Not to say I don't like it, Ilove it.
When people do have that typeof money, I feel more secure.
But more than likely, the guythat has the experience and is
involved in multiple projectsthey don't have much in liquid
assets.
They have a lot in assets, butthey don't have a lot in liquid
(14:44):
assets.
Dr. Shay (14:45):
Right.
So I feel like most people,when they come into a little bit
of money, one of the firstthings they seek to go into is
real estate.
Yes.
What would you recommend tosomeone who's finally got a
little money in their pocket?
Steve Afra (14:58):
I think it's a great idea, but you have to be very
careful just because you comeinto money.
I'll give you an example.
So I actually took a businesstrip down to Orlando recently,
and I met some entrepreneurs whoare in the tax preparation
business.
And these guys make a ton ofmoney on a quarterly basis, like
(15:21):
they'll make three, $4 millionjust in a quarter for taxes.
And those guys were gettinginvolved in real estate in
Orlando.
And recently, Orlando is one ofthe top 10 markets that are
taking the biggest hits in thereal estate market.
So some of the conversationsthat I was having with them was,
(15:42):
well, how can they shelterthemselves from such swings?
And I explained to them, Isaid, look, leverage is not for
everybody, but in situationslike this, you might want to
lever yourself so that at leastyou get some of that cash back
and you can shelter yourselffrom some potential losses.
Or when the market's gettingcrushed, that's when you're
(16:07):
getting the better deals, right?
And for them to recoup some ofthat money so that they can
offset some of the losses thatthey're taking by being able to
purchase some new projects withbetter returns.
And they loved it.
Dr. Shay (16:24):
Interesting.
So I've seen on some of yourInstagram posts talking about
clients that turned a visioninto a multi-million dollar
return.
What do those clients have incommon beyond money?
Steve Afra (16:34):
Like you said, vision.
And that's the most importantthing.
What I try to tell people is, alot of people come and they
say, I don't have the money.
What do I do?
I usually tell them, look, ifthe vision's right, and the
returns are right, the moneywill follow, right?
(16:57):
So you just have to have thevision, put a great product
together, and then present it todifferent investors.
And if it really is, and if youcould show them, hey, you can
make a return on this, you know,I need $100,000, and
necessarily I wouldn't go to oneperson for 100,000.
I would say go to five peoplefor $20,000 a piece that are
(17:20):
looking to invest in real estatethat are sitting on something
and say, look, this is myvision.
This is what it looks like.
And if it looks great and it'sout of the box, it's not kind of
what's in the norm and youcould show them the returns,
who's gonna say no?
I think a lot of people, Theystart out saying, well, I'm
(17:43):
never going to be able to findthe money.
And I tell them, well, if youwake up every morning and you
tell yourself whatever it is,that becomes your reality,
right?
But if you change that aroundand you say, no, I have the
perfect project.
People are going to invest inthis project.
And you believe in the project,the money always comes.
Dr. Shay (18:02):
And you brought up an interesting point about sort of
define the odds.
So have you ever had a deal orone that you could think of that
surprised you where maybe likethe outcome went against all
logic or prediction?
Steve Afra (18:15):
Fortunately, sometimes it goes the other way.
Where I'll be like, I reallybelieve in this deal and usually
tanks.
When I'm lending money, I'mjust joking.
No, I've had surprises.
I've had surprises, I'll tellyou.
In your neck of the woods, kindof farther north, in, I think
(18:38):
it's either Washington orOregon.
I think it's Oregon.
And you're from NorthernCalifornia, so it's close.
And they've just started to dothis in San Diego.
there were these guys wherethey started kind of
deregulating ADUs, where youcould put up an ADU, an
(18:58):
auxiliary detached unit, right?
So you could call it like agranny pad or things like that.
And in Oregon, when you put upthat ADU, now you can sell that
ADU as a standalone property.
which is fantastic.
So these guys were buying homeswith some land in the back,
(19:21):
putting up three of theseauxiliary units and selling
them.
So when they first gotpresented to us, we were
obviously skeptical.
So we really didn't invest thatmuch or lend that much against
these properties, which turnedout to be the wrong thing
because they knocked it out ofthe park and they're still
(19:41):
knocking it out of the
Dr. Shay (19:42):
park.
Interesting.
Nice.
I think we have a mutualfriend, Michael Gomez, here in
Nashville.
Yeah, I recently talked to himand we had a great conversation
about...
I love Michael.
I know, he's great.
He's so funny too.
And we were talking more aboutthe emotional aspect of real
estate, like how the conflictshe has to manage in a day
between agents, betweencustomers, all the above.
(20:04):
In your line of work, how doesemotion show
Steve Afra (20:07):
up?
I think in anything in realestate, emotions kill you.
Dr. Shay (20:10):
Yeah.
Steve Afra (20:11):
Once you add that emotional component into any
project, unless it's yourpersonal property, you're just,
you're going to get crushed.
And you just have to detachyourself and understand that
everything is just numbers,right?
And once you move away fromthat, and then you have a
(20:31):
feeling, well, your feelingdoesn't mean anything.
Your feelings are going to loseyou money, right?
And if you're not going withthe statistics, Once you
involve, especially in my lineof business, where I'm lending
money, if I have just a feelingand I don't go with the numbers
and I emotionally attach myselfto something, where the numbers
(20:51):
are always telling me, run away,this is a bad deal, you're
going to end up losing.
There's no room in emotions andbusiness unless you're in the
people business, right?
And unless you're running anon-profit, And then that's a
different story, right?
But if you're for-profit andyou're an entrepreneur, then
(21:14):
there's nothing wrong with that.
You know, a lot of people thinklike, you know, that's a
problem.
It's not.
We're sitting in anentrepreneur's building, right?
If you're an entrepreneur, mybiggest advice is take emotion
out of business.
and make your decisions basedon the numbers and the facts,
(21:34):
and that's it.
Dr. Shay (21:35):
Do you find yourself having to help other people
manage their emotions whenthey're working with you, or is
that something that just doesn'treally?
Steve Afra (21:40):
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (21:42):
How do you get
Steve Afra (21:43):
them off to the other side?
On both ways, right?
With both ways.
You could have an underwriterthat's emotionally attached to a
deal where they feel it's a baddeal for some reason.
It could be attached.
Maybe they don't like the loanofficer.
And all of a sudden, all ofthis particular loan officer's
(22:07):
deals are just getting denied.
And you're saying, well, what'shappening?
So when you're looking at theKPIs and you realize that,
you're like, there's somethingwrong.
Is it the loan officer?
Well, no, because if it's goingto a different underwriter, his
deals are getting approved andthey're coming this way, they're
all getting denied.
Right?
(22:28):
It should be both ways, right?
So if he's writing bad deals,then across the board his deals
should be getting.
So then you have a conversationwith the underwriter and you
have to say, hey, you could likethis person or not like this
person.
That has nothing to do with thecrux of the deal.
You've got to make thatdecision.
You've got to base yourdecision on the deal.
Well, this person, you know,they're always giving this type
(22:52):
of deal.
Well, that's none of yourbusiness.
Like, And if you can't handleit, then that's...
So we do, yes.
And that happens,unfortunately.
Dr. Shay (23:00):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
And I guess reflecting on your,again, your own entrepreneur
journey, are there any, I guess,lessons or relationships or
attitudes about money that youhad to unlearn to get where you
are today?
Steve Afra (23:14):
I think that, you know, what do they call it?
Commission breath, right?
Where...
everything you try to do is tryto make money.
But people sense that off ofyou, right?
I think what people forget iswhatever business that you're
trying to do, if you're tryingto do it well, with the
(23:37):
betterment of whoever you'retrying to do it with in mind,
right?
Whether it's, I'm trying tosell real estate.
I'll just give you an example.
Well, I'm going to try andstick this person in a...
you know, more expensive houseso I can make more commission.
Rather than listening to thatperson and try to place that
(23:59):
person in the right place that'sright for them.
It makes a big difference.
And that energy, whoever it is,it's going to pick up on it and
you're going to end up losing.
Whether you want to call itkarma, whether you want to call
it whatever you want to call it.
It's just, you know, money isthe same as energy.
And It's just, it is what it is.
(24:21):
And when you attach negativeenergy to it, it's gonna have
negative effects one way or theother.
It could be financial, andthat's a good thing, because if
it comes in a different way,like health, which it can also,
then there's nothing you can do.
Dr. Shay (24:40):
And can you talk to me a little bit about resiliency
in your line of work?
Having to push, like you said,the tough markets, the people,
the emotions, all the pieces.
Steve Afra (24:48):
So...
I'll tell you resiliency andentrepreneurship in general.
In order to be an entrepreneur,you have to be able to endure
the losses.
And a lot of people can't.
And when they face the firstloss is when they'll pack up
their bags and they'll head homeand they'll say, well, I need
to have a job or it's a W2 joband I can't handle this anymore.
(25:09):
And my wife is here and she'smy witness.
There've been times where wehaven't had to look at price
tags and we're buyingeverything.
And then there've been timeswhere we don't even know how to
feed our daughter.
And it's unfortunate, but thosecome.
But the thing is, you have tohave enough faith in yourself to
(25:30):
know that even in those timeswhere you're just looking around
and you're like, well, what arewe gonna do?
But if you apply the sameprinciples, you don't cheat
anyone, you don't lie, you stayconsistent that you're going to
come out of those times.
And, you know, I'll say thatit's like a slingshot sometimes,
(25:54):
and you have to believe that,where when you're falling down,
you feel like, wow, I'm justnever going to get back.
But sometimes it's like, youknow, when you have a slingshot,
you have to pull it back andlet it go in order to really go
further.
And the further you pull thatback, right, the further you
(26:14):
pull that back, the furtheryou're going to go.
And if you have that belief tounderstand, hey, I'm falling,
but maybe I need to fall really,really back in order to go
really, really forward at somepoint.
And that's the faith that youhave to have in yourself.
Dr. Shay (26:33):
Gosh, this is...
You're killing me softly rightnow because as a new
entrepreneur, I'm going througha lot of this right now.
It's so up and down and it's sointeresting to see or to learn
how I think other people thinkyour day looks like.
I think they just think thatyou're playing hopscotch or just
writing down like I'mjournaling all day.
It's a nonstop grind and it'salmost like a you're lucky you
(26:56):
get to work for yourself type ofthing.
I'm what?
Steve Afra (27:00):
But they don't understand that, right?
It's...
So my nephew is really, reallybright.
And he got a job with PriceWaterhouse, right?
And they're working him todeath.
I mean, this kid is putting in14, 15 hour days, let's say,
right?
And his dad, which is mybrother-in-law, is ultra
(27:24):
successful.
And I said, they said, youknow, wow, they're killing this
guy.
He said, well, you don't evenrealize.
He said, I guarantee if you login the numbers, that you work,
it's gonna be more than my son'swork.
And how do you determine that?
Because I'll wake up, and justbecause we don't punch in the
(27:47):
clock, we don't realize how manyhours it is, right?
Because if we did punch in theclock, it's gonna be two times,
maybe three times the amountanybody else in the organization
is working.
And my wife witnesses thisbecause she sees the late night
calls.
(28:07):
She sees the weekend calls withmy business partners.
She sees me up at night atmidnight returning emails,
right?
Where I don't expect that,right?
From anyone in my organization.
I feel bad sometimes for myexecutive assistant that's here
(28:27):
also because she will be gettingemails on the weekend.
I don't expect her to respond,but she's going to get them or
she will get them late at nightbecause I'm having conversations
with different people and Ineed to remind myself and remind
her to please help me out.
And she'll wake up in themorning.
But that's what people don'trealize.
(28:47):
We're not on the clock.
Dr. Shay (28:49):
Yes, exactly.
And shout out to all thespouses out there supporting
entrepreneurs.
Steve Afra (28:53):
Oh, yeah, 100%.
Because they're in on it withyou, right?
Dr. Shay (28:56):
Yes, absolutely.
Steve Afra (28:57):
They're there.
And they're kind of livingvicariously through whatever is
going on in your life and what'sgoing on in your business.
But the other thing I want tosay for entrepreneurs is you
have to stay consistent.
Dr. Shay (29:13):
I love that word.
Steve Afra (29:14):
It's very important.
And I tell people, I know...
Plenty of crazy people that aresuccessful, right?
But you want to know something?
They're consistently crazy,right?
And at least people know, wow,I know this guy is a psychopath.
He's crazy as hell.
But...
Dr. Shay (29:31):
You know what to expect.
Steve Afra (29:32):
You know what to expect.
But if they were to go to him,I have one person in particular
that I know, right?
But he's great at what he does.
And sometimes I'll sit thereand say, how does this guy even
get clients?
He's crazy.
But at least they know he'scrazy.
And they're, oh, you got todeal with this guy.
He's not.
Well, he gets the job done.
Right, right.
(29:53):
But what if he was really niceone day, then he was medium
nice, and then he was crazy?
It would be too inconsistent,right?
And I tell people, either goright or go left.
But if you're going to be inthe middle, no one knows what
they're going to get.
That's when you get run over onthe road, right?
Pick the lane.
(30:14):
Either I'm going up or I'mcoming down.
Pick one.
But everybody's got to knowwhat they're getting from you at
the end of the dayconsistently.
Dr. Shay (30:24):
Yeah, I think that translates to relationships too,
right?
It's nice to know what you'recoming home to every day.
100%.
Steve Afra (30:29):
Unless you're married to a Gemini.
Oh, my God.
My son's a Gemini.
I don't know what I'm gettingin the morning.
I tell my wife, you know.
Whoever this guy's gonna end upwith, let's help him.
Dr. Shay (30:44):
For the record, I'm a Gemini too.
And my partner told me I'm themost consistent person he's ever
met.
Steve Afra (30:51):
Wow.
Dr. Shay (30:52):
So shout out to the Gemini.
Steve Afra (30:54):
I think Gemini females are different than
Gemini males.
Because my poor mother had todeal with my father, who was a
Gemini.
I got to see Gemini male.
And my son happens to be acarbon copy of my father.
So
Dr. Shay (31:12):
what do you hope the next generation understands
about money that yours didn't?
Steve Afra (31:19):
I think my generation understood a lot more
than the new generation.
And I'll tell you, I think thenew generation doesn't
understand the value of moneyand that their whole thing is
work smarter not harder andthat's not the case it's work
harder and smarter right andi'll tell you this i know plenty
(31:43):
of people that work harder thansmarter and they have way
better results and they're moresuccessful and that's just what
it is it's a matter of i think alot of people in this
generation want instantgratification because They want
(32:03):
Amazon.
And it's not even Amazon nextday.
It's Amazon now.
They want TV shows.
Where my generation had to...
When I was watching cartoons,it was Saturday morning
cartoons.
And I had to wait.
And when we had TV shows, itwas every week.
(32:25):
We would watch 30 minutes andthen we had to wait for the next
Wednesday or the next Tuesdayto watch the next episode.
Dr. Shay (32:32):
Gosh.
Steve Afra (32:34):
Right?
It was just crazy.
That's horrible.
That's horrible.
Now they get Netflix andthey're watching eight episodes
in one night.
Guilty.
My wife too.
Yeah.
She's the same thing, right?
And, you know, we're watching anew show.
She's miserable that we have towait until Friday until it's
coming out.
But for me, it's exciting.
I miss those days.
(32:54):
Or if they want food, I mean,we had to go ride our bikes 30
minutes, sit down in a Chinesefood place with God knows what
the hell they were serving us.
It wasn't meat, you know?
Wait, take the bus or, youknow, ride the bike 30 minutes.
Now my kids want food.
Instantaneous.
They want...
Movies, it's instantaneous.
(33:14):
And I think the wholegeneration, they think that
money comes like that too.
And it really doesn't.
It's not.
They look at certain peoplethat are instantaneously
successful, but that's not forthe majority of people.
It's not the case.
Dr. Shay (33:30):
Yeah.
That's the part that's hard tograsp.
I think I find myself sometimesI think I'm grounded enough to
know everything you just saidmakes sense.
But the little part of me, youknow, I've been at this full
time for like, let's just sayfive months.
And I'm like, I'm not rich yet.
Like, what is this?
I feel like I'm doingeverything right.
But you also, at the same time,it's intimidating to see how
(33:52):
many podcasters on YouTube whohave millions of views and not
compare yourself to that.
And kind of find the balance ofwhat's real and, you know, how
long it really does take.
Steve Afra (34:02):
So one other thing is, For entrepreneurs, I say,
never compare yourself tosomebody else.
It's compare yourself toyourself.
So it's, you know, I have10,000 followers, I wanna have
15.
And when I get 15, I wanna have20.
I'm never looking at the nextguy and say, well, this guy's
(34:23):
got 30, I have to chase him.
Who cares about that guy?
Just set goals.
And whatever goals that you'resetting, people say set
achievable goals.
I kind of disagree.
Set somewhat unachievablegoals, right?
I
Dr. Shay (34:41):
like that.
Steve Afra (34:41):
You just want to reach a little bit further.
And I think that's the key.
Dr. Shay (34:46):
Yeah.
I mean, it's just such a fault,right, to not compare yourself
to others.
But like, of course, you'reabsolutely right.
And I think what happens a lotof times, too, is you're
comparing where you are at thestart of the race and they're
already at the end.
half mile or whatever it is.
And you just don't see thatpart for them to get to that
half mile.
So that's the part you're not
Steve Afra (35:06):
seeing.
And we don't know what they'redoing to get there, right?
As long as you're doing yourbest.
So I'll tell you, for instance,again, I'll go back to my wife.
My wife is a very talentedphysical specimen in terms of
athletics, right?
And whether me, I was what wascalled a blue collar athlete,
(35:29):
right?
know what a blue collar athleteis and it means i had decent um
athletic ability but i had suchdrive that made me a good
athlete and i got a chance to bea collegiate athlete because of
that where there was plenty ofathletes that were way better
athletically physically than methat couldn't make it so now if
(35:50):
my wife had back then my bluecollar work with her physical
activity like physical abilitiesshe probably could have been a
famous athlete right which youknow it didn't happen for
whatever reason she you know shewas successful in different
(36:11):
ways um but the the whole thewhole point is you have to know
like what are my limitationsright and at an early age i knew
what my limitations wereathletically and i Just, I would
never, I tried to put theblinders on and not look at the
other kids that were maybefaster than me in the 40.
(36:34):
And because then I would get, Iwould get nagged out.
Like, oh man, I can't competewith these kids, right?
So it's kind of helped me inbusiness life where whatever
could be happening around me,right?
I aspire, I look at people andI say, oh, this guy's
successful, right?
But I'm never chasing him.
I'm just chasing myself.
(36:54):
Yeah.
And setting goals for myself,whatever that goal is.
Dr. Shay (36:59):
What's your relationship to legacy?
Steve Afra (37:01):
So
Dr. Shay (37:02):
I
Steve Afra (37:05):
try to tell people not to have an ego, right?
But I've put 30 years plus intothe mortgage business.
And when it comes to legacy,I've put my dues into this
business.
I've given it my whole life.
And the legacy that I want whenI leave and exit this business,
(37:31):
I want my legacy to be, Iexited better than anybody else
in the business.
And that's my goal, my legacy.
Now, personal legacy is mychildren, right?
And however, I just want themto be good humans when I'm not
(37:54):
here.
And to treat others, just bekind people.
My personal legacy iscompletely zero ego compared to
my business legacy.
My business legacy is all ego,whether it's right or it's
wrong, it is what it is.
It's the competitive nature ofme.
(38:14):
My personal legacy is if Ileave behind kind human beings,
I know I did the right thing inlife.
Dr. Shay (38:21):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
And let's see, if you had towrite your biggest lesson behind
your career on a billboard,what would it say?
You can't fit a lot of words onthere now.
Steve Afra (38:34):
Persistence broke resistance.
Elaborate a little bit.
I just don't take no for ananswer.
I like it.
When people say no...
in business, I always take itas a maybe.
It kind of translates like, no,it doesn't translate as no in
(38:56):
my mind.
It goes, well, maybe there's ashot, right?
And then I just don't stop.
I don't stop.
Dr. Shay (39:04):
And you know, so again, my podcast is about
resolution, the resolution room,right?
So after decades of watchingpeople chase wealth, make bold
bets, and rebuild from failure,what in your experience does
real resolution require?
I
Steve Afra (39:22):
can tell you that there have been times in my
life, like I said, where I'vehad tremendous success, followed
by the lowest of lows.
On a personal level, and on afinancial level, where a lot of
my peers, a lot of my friends,they kind of, I guess, look up
(39:47):
to me and, well, my best friend,even a year ago when he was
facing some sort of adversityhimself said, I can't believe
how many times you went throughthis and you made it through.
It's amazing, right?
But I think you have to have,not I think, I know you have to
(40:08):
have faith.
And that's the most importantthing.
To understand that even if youhit rock bottom, which I have,
right?
To say, maybe there's somegrace even in that.
Because if I lose everything,then I get to really rebuild
myself.
And then this time around, I'llget to really rebuild myself in
(40:30):
a way where I'm not going tolose everything.
And the fortress that I'm goingto build, it's going to be on
such crazy foundation that it'sgoing to withhold and withstand
anything that's going to come.
And a lot of people don't get achance to do that, right?
Because some of them are goingto live in a house or a fortress
that's always half built andthat shaky ground, right?
(40:53):
And sometimes losingeverything, is the grace of the
almighty, right?
Because he's giving you cleanslate.
Here you go.
How do you want to rebuildyourself?
And as hard as it is, you get achance to do it.
Dr. Shay (41:11):
Steve, Steve, Steve.
Thank you so much.
Can you let everyone know whereto follow you in your
Steve Afra (41:16):
work?
So they can find me onInstagram at afrasteve.
That's my Instagram.
I'm on LinkedIn.
And I think I'm on YouTube.
I am.
And those are the best ways toget to me.
Dr. Shay (41:31):
I mean, thank you so much for coming in the residency
Steve Afra (41:33):
room.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
And I wish you the best ofluck.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Just keep at it.
Dr. Shay (41:40):
In a market that's constantly shifting and in a
culture that often confusesimage with impact, Steve
reminded us that real successisn't built on luck.
It's built on listening well,reading people with care, and
learning when to lean in or walkaway.
From first-time buyers toseasoned investors, from
spreadsheet calculations to gutinstincts, what this episode
(42:01):
revealed is simple.
Real estate is emotional.
And navigating it well requiresclarity, not just about the
deal, but about yourself.
Whether you're building aportfolio or just trying to make
bold moves in your own life,the lesson is the same.
Calculate at risk is never justabout math.
It's about meaning.
Because at the end of the day,your most powerful investment is
(42:23):
in the property.
It's in the person and who youbecome through the process.
As always, thank you forjoining me in the Resolution
Room.
If this conversation moved you,challenged you, or gave you
something to carry forward,consider supporting the show.
You can explore our wearablewisdom collection in our mind
(42:43):
shop, where each piece isdesigned to spark reflection and
dialogue.
You can also join our growingcommunity for behind-the-scenes
conversations, resources, andsupport of your own journey
through tension andtransformation.
And if you just want to saythank you in a simple way, you
can always buy me a coffee.
Every gesture helps keep thisspace going.
(43:05):
All the links are in the shownotes.
And until next time, Keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
There's a story behind everysale, and sometimes the biggest
risk isn't the money, it's themirror.
(00:44):
In this episode, I sit downwith Steve Afra, an investor,
private lender, and quiet forcein the real estate world for
over 30 years.
Long before real estate becamea buzzword online, Steve was
navigating the tension betweengut instinct and spreadsheets,
learning what trust reallycosts, and betting on people
(01:04):
when the banks wouldn't.
But this conversation goes farbeyond square footage and
interest rates.
Together we unpack what riskreally means, how perception
shapes power, how money movesthrough identity and emotion,
and what it looks like to play along game in a world obsessed
with short wins.
This is an episode about realestate, yes, but it's also about
(01:25):
leverage, leadership, andlearning how to see value where
others only see volatility.
Steve, can you please introduceyourself to the audience?
Steve Afra (01:33):
So I'm Steve Afra.
I am the managing partner ofInvestor Funding.
Investor Funding is a nationalprivate money firm that lends
money to different types of realestate investors.
And Let's say if they're tryingto do fix and flip, ground to
construction, or long-termrental financing.
(01:54):
That's it in a nutshell.
Dr. Shay (01:57):
That was a very good summary.
Thank you.
So you've been in privatelending for over 30 years,
right?
Steve Afra (02:02):
I've been in lending for over 30 years.
I've been in private lendingnow for the better part of five
years.
Dr. Shay (02:09):
Okay.
And so this predates socialmedia, of course.
Yes.
And this is before it made it atrending topic.
So what got you into this work?
Steve Afra (02:19):
What got me into lending or private lending?
Dr. Shay (02:21):
Let's do both.
Steve Afra (02:22):
So lending, I kind of fell into, I was 17 and it
was the summer.
And I worked for a bigrestaurant in New York.
It was an Italian restaurant.
And I was a ballet parkerthere.
I was making a lot of money.
But that work was just on theweekend.
(02:46):
So it was Friday night.
Saturday and Sunday.
And I was a valet parkingmanager then.
17, that was a big shot, makinga ton of money.
But we were making good money.
And during the week, I was justrelaxing, doing nothing.
And my mom wasn't having it.
She was like, you're notstaying home.
There's no way.
Like, you have to go find ajob.
(03:06):
I'm like, I have a job.
I run the valet parking at thisrestaurant.
I make a ton of money on theweekends.
And she said, no.
You know, her best friend, wasthe executive vice president of
the largest mortgage bank backthen.
And she said, well, she'slooking for someone to help her.
(03:27):
You're working there.
And that was it.
And that's how it started.
And her best friend is like asecond mom to me.
So I started working there andI caught the mortgage banking
bug.
Dr. Shay (03:41):
Yeah.
And then, so what was like yourvery first big deal and what
did you learn from that?
Steve Afra (03:48):
My first big deal.
I tell people this, it wasn'treally that fascinating, right?
My first deal, the first dealthat I ever closed originated
came from my father.
My father was a big fix andflipper back then, a big
developer.
He was working with themortgage company that I was
(04:08):
working for, and the owner ofthat mortgage company, who, God
rest his soul, just passed away,said, his name was Jacob, he
said, this deal is coming infrom your dad, why don't you go
and originate the deal?
I had no idea.
I didn't know what I was doing.
And I went.
I learned how to take a loanapplication on the spot.
(04:30):
And when the deal closed, theygave me 50 bucks.
Dr. Shay (04:35):
So
Steve Afra (04:36):
that was it.
Dr. Shay (04:37):
Okay.
And I like that you...
But that was your first bigdeal or your first deal?
Steve Afra (04:42):
First deal.
Dr. Shay (04:42):
Okay.
That
Steve Afra (04:43):
was my first deal.
Dr. Shay (04:43):
Okay.
Steve Afra (04:44):
That's a first big deal.
Dr. Shay (04:45):
That's a big deal.
Steve Afra (04:46):
That's a big deal.
You know, your firstorigination.
Would you figure it'd be moreglamorous?
I could tell you I sat thereand made tons of money, but no.
Yeah.
It wasn't like that when I wasgrowing up.
And whatever they gave you, youwere gracious and grateful for
taking whatever it was.
Is
Dr. Shay (04:59):
there anything from that deal that you learned that
you took with you later on?
Steve Afra (05:04):
Couldn't tell you?
No, no, not that particulardeal.
There are other deals that I,you know, but you remember
things for different reasons inmy business.
More it's for some of thelosses that you took, some of
the gains that you took, right?
So yeah, unfortunately.
Dr. Shay (05:23):
Yeah, so what do you think people misunderstand most
about what you do?
Steve Afra (05:28):
What people misunderstand most is Is that
they don't understand thedifference between private
lending and hard money lendingand that's kind of been meshed
together but historicallyspeaking hard money lending was
for people that had a Hardship,that's where the term hard money
(05:49):
comes from And it was forpeople I more than others where
let's say they were in some sortof distress, right?
And they needed money in a badway because they had hardship,
hence hard money.
And now things have changed andthey kind of interchange it and
(06:11):
they'll say, well, you know,I'm in a foreclosure, can you
help me?
And I'll tell them, no, that'sa hard money lender.
I'm a private money lender.
And that's the difference.
So private money is...
basically for people that arewithin the real estate
investment world.
That's what private money isfor.
(06:33):
So we just help real estateinvestors.
And it could be, you can haveexperience, but on the fix the
flip side, you don't even needexperience.
So if you don't haveexperience, you could come and
we'll lend you money.
But it has to be asset-based.
Dr. Shay (06:50):
I see, I see.
Was there ever a moment youalmost walked away from doing
this work?
Steve Afra (06:56):
Yes.
I don't even think it was bychoice.
We had that mortgage meltdownin 2008.
I think everybody wanted towalk away.
But what ended up happening isthe bigger you were in the
business back then, the more ofa leopard you were looked upon
because everybody blamed you foreverything that happened,
(07:18):
right?
And so you were unemployable.
You really couldn't do anythingbecause as soon as they would
look at your resume and they sawthat you had mortgage banking
and you were a mortgage banker,you were kind of the enemy of
the state, right?
It was, oh, you were the badguy, you did this, and that's
(07:39):
how you were kind of lookedupon.
Dr. Shay (07:41):
Interesting point too.
So having to navigate that kindof reputation that was beyond
your control, like how do youbuild trust in an industry where
people are often skeptical?
Steve Afra (07:52):
So how you build trust in any industry is no
matter what, even if people areskeptical, you have to take the
high road.
You always have to try and dothe right thing.
Right.
And that catches up to you bothways.
If you don't do the rightthing, it's going to catch up to
you.
And if you do the right thing,it's going to catch up to you in
(08:13):
a positive way.
So what I've always done, I'vealways tried to do the right
thing, always in business.
Even though it's hurt mepersonally in the short run,
it's always kind of helped me inthe long run.
Dr. Shay (08:28):
Right, right.
And reflecting on your career,what does risk mean to you today
in this business?
And how has that evolved foryou over time?
Steve Afra (08:38):
If you speak to my wife, she says it hasn't
evolved.
You know, I'm always, whenyou're lending money, you're
always taking some sort of risk,right?
But I think the type of riskthat we're taking now and with
the types of projects that wetake risk on, we make sure that,
God forbid, if things go south,there's enough room, right,
(09:04):
where...
we're really not going to takethat much of a loss if we take a
loss.
That's kind of evolved, whichobviously is better.
I think when I was in theregular side of the business,
and let's say I was an FHAlender and people were putting
3% down and getting an FHA loan,there's not much room for risk,
(09:29):
right?
Because if that loan goes badand you have to kind of, you
know, take the losses onsomething like that, you're
gonna take a heavier loss.
Dr. Shay (09:40):
And I guess going a little deeper on how do you
determine whether someone isworth betting on?
Steve Afra (09:48):
Really their experience, right?
So we look at the track recordand we really look for like for
like kind of track record,right?
So if the guys put up three orfour, homes in affordable
housing and he wants to go builda $5 million mansion, we're
(10:12):
kind of like, I'm sorry, this isnot like for like, right?
However, the reverse could be,if someone has put up $5 million
mansions and they want to godabble in affordable housing,
you kind of like, well, you knowwhat?
He's put up five, $6 millionhomes.
If he's putting up 300,$400,000 homes, the risk is a
(10:34):
lot less because you know he'shandled larger projects.
Dr. Shay (10:39):
I see, I see.
And so you funded luxury homes,like you said, short-term
rentals and everything inbetween.
So what does luxury real estatereveal about how people define
success?
Steve Afra (10:53):
So I think really it depends on what type of luxury,
right?
Believe it or not, I think alot of people...
who are buying the luxuryhomes, and I'm talking 7 million
plus, they kind of want to beunknown.
Like they don't want people toknow.
(11:14):
It's kind of people that are inthe 2 million to let's say $5
million mark, where they kind offlaunt that a lot more.
But in terms of my business, Icould tell you something about
risk with that type of business.
In a market that we're in todaywhere interest rates are still
(11:35):
high, there's two markets that Itell my builders that we really
like.
It's the affordable housingmarket because people that are
looking for affordable housing,whether rates are high or
whether rates are low, it reallydoesn't affect them.
They care more about what is mypayment and to have an
(11:56):
opportunity to actually buy ahome.
Dr. Shay (11:59):
Right.
Steve Afra (12:00):
That's most important to them.
And they care about thepayment.
What's my payment?
Not, you know, it could be 7%,8% rate.
It really, you know, they getthe opportunity and they want to
know what the payment is tomake sure that they could afford
the payment.
And if they could afford thepayment, they're going to take
that opportunity, which isgreat.
So in an environment like this,I always say, you know,
(12:23):
affordable housing is fantastic.
In any environment, I actuallylike affordable housing.
I think it's recession-proof,it's everything-proof.
And it only gets hotter whenthe rates are better.
It's a fantastic market.
The other market that I reallylike that's recession-proof is
complete unaffordable housing.
(12:44):
So people who are buying homes,let's say 5 million plus,
because they're buying it incash.
And in an environment likethis, they're getting deals on
the type of properties that theywanna buy.
So they're gonna buy thoseproperties undervalued.
And I see that all the time.
So we have a lot of luxurybuilders today that are sitting
(13:07):
on some properties and whenthey're getting cash offers, the
cash offers are coming in$500,000, $250,000 below market
value.
And they're taking them becausethey don't have a choice.
They have to take them.
Dr. Shay (13:23):
I see.
And so when we're looking atthe difference between It sounds
like people who come to you whojust look rich versus being
wealthy.
What have you learned about thedifference between those two
types of clients?
Steve Afra (13:37):
So in real estate, especially real estate
investments, if people havemoney in the bank, usually
they're not that savvy in realestate.
Most of my builders, because ofthe type of savvy builders, I
should say, because the type ofbusiness that they do, they're
(13:59):
always cash poor.
They just don't have enoughmoney because they're involved
in so many real estate deals.
And when you're involved in somany real estate deals, it sucks
up all your liquidity.
And If you come across abuilder that says he's an avid,
very avid builder, activebuilder, and if you look at
(14:21):
their bank account and they'resitting on a couple of million
dollars, you know that it's nottrue.
Not to say I don't like it, Ilove it.
When people do have that typeof money, I feel more secure.
But more than likely, the guythat has the experience and is
involved in multiple projectsthey don't have much in liquid
assets.
They have a lot in assets, butthey don't have a lot in liquid
(14:44):
assets.
Dr. Shay (14:45):
Right.
So I feel like most people,when they come into a little bit
of money, one of the firstthings they seek to go into is
real estate.
Yes.
What would you recommend tosomeone who's finally got a
little money in their pocket?
Steve Afra (14:58):
I think it's a great idea, but you have to be very
careful just because you comeinto money.
I'll give you an example.
So I actually took a businesstrip down to Orlando recently,
and I met some entrepreneurs whoare in the tax preparation
business.
And these guys make a ton ofmoney on a quarterly basis, like
(15:21):
they'll make three, $4 millionjust in a quarter for taxes.
And those guys were gettinginvolved in real estate in
Orlando.
And recently, Orlando is one ofthe top 10 markets that are
taking the biggest hits in thereal estate market.
So some of the conversationsthat I was having with them was,
(15:42):
well, how can they shelterthemselves from such swings?
And I explained to them, Isaid, look, leverage is not for
everybody, but in situationslike this, you might want to
lever yourself so that at leastyou get some of that cash back
and you can shelter yourselffrom some potential losses.
Or when the market's gettingcrushed, that's when you're
(16:07):
getting the better deals, right?
And for them to recoup some ofthat money so that they can
offset some of the losses thatthey're taking by being able to
purchase some new projects withbetter returns.
And they loved it.
Dr. Shay (16:24):
Interesting.
So I've seen on some of yourInstagram posts talking about
clients that turned a visioninto a multi-million dollar
return.
What do those clients have incommon beyond money?
Steve Afra (16:34):
Like you said, vision.
And that's the most importantthing.
What I try to tell people is, alot of people come and they
say, I don't have the money.
What do I do?
I usually tell them, look, ifthe vision's right, and the
returns are right, the moneywill follow, right?
(16:57):
So you just have to have thevision, put a great product
together, and then present it todifferent investors.
And if it really is, and if youcould show them, hey, you can
make a return on this, you know,I need $100,000, and
necessarily I wouldn't go to oneperson for 100,000.
I would say go to five peoplefor $20,000 a piece that are
(17:20):
looking to invest in real estatethat are sitting on something
and say, look, this is myvision.
This is what it looks like.
And if it looks great and it'sout of the box, it's not kind of
what's in the norm and youcould show them the returns,
who's gonna say no?
I think a lot of people, Theystart out saying, well, I'm
(17:43):
never going to be able to findthe money.
And I tell them, well, if youwake up every morning and you
tell yourself whatever it is,that becomes your reality,
right?
But if you change that aroundand you say, no, I have the
perfect project.
People are going to invest inthis project.
And you believe in the project,the money always comes.
Dr. Shay (18:02):
And you brought up an interesting point about sort of
define the odds.
So have you ever had a deal orone that you could think of that
surprised you where maybe likethe outcome went against all
logic or prediction?
Steve Afra (18:15):
Fortunately, sometimes it goes the other way.
Where I'll be like, I reallybelieve in this deal and usually
tanks.
When I'm lending money, I'mjust joking.
No, I've had surprises.
I've had surprises, I'll tellyou.
In your neck of the woods, kindof farther north, in, I think
(18:38):
it's either Washington orOregon.
I think it's Oregon.
And you're from NorthernCalifornia, so it's close.
And they've just started to dothis in San Diego.
there were these guys wherethey started kind of
deregulating ADUs, where youcould put up an ADU, an
(18:58):
auxiliary detached unit, right?
So you could call it like agranny pad or things like that.
And in Oregon, when you put upthat ADU, now you can sell that
ADU as a standalone property.
which is fantastic.
So these guys were buying homeswith some land in the back,
(19:21):
putting up three of theseauxiliary units and selling
them.
So when they first gotpresented to us, we were
obviously skeptical.
So we really didn't invest thatmuch or lend that much against
these properties, which turnedout to be the wrong thing
because they knocked it out ofthe park and they're still
(19:41):
knocking it out of the
Dr. Shay (19:42):
park.
Interesting.
Nice.
I think we have a mutualfriend, Michael Gomez, here in
Nashville.
Yeah, I recently talked to himand we had a great conversation
about...
I love Michael.
I know, he's great.
He's so funny too.
And we were talking more aboutthe emotional aspect of real
estate, like how the conflictshe has to manage in a day
between agents, betweencustomers, all the above.
(20:04):
In your line of work, how doesemotion show
Steve Afra (20:07):
up?
I think in anything in realestate, emotions kill you.
Dr. Shay (20:10):
Yeah.
Steve Afra (20:11):
Once you add that emotional component into any
project, unless it's yourpersonal property, you're just,
you're going to get crushed.
And you just have to detachyourself and understand that
everything is just numbers,right?
And once you move away fromthat, and then you have a
(20:31):
feeling, well, your feelingdoesn't mean anything.
Your feelings are going to loseyou money, right?
And if you're not going withthe statistics, Once you
involve, especially in my lineof business, where I'm lending
money, if I have just a feelingand I don't go with the numbers
and I emotionally attach myselfto something, where the numbers
(20:51):
are always telling me, run away,this is a bad deal, you're
going to end up losing.
There's no room in emotions andbusiness unless you're in the
people business, right?
And unless you're running anon-profit, And then that's a
different story, right?
But if you're for-profit andyou're an entrepreneur, then
(21:14):
there's nothing wrong with that.
You know, a lot of people thinklike, you know, that's a
problem.
It's not.
We're sitting in anentrepreneur's building, right?
If you're an entrepreneur, mybiggest advice is take emotion
out of business.
and make your decisions basedon the numbers and the facts,
(21:34):
and that's it.
Dr. Shay (21:35):
Do you find yourself having to help other people
manage their emotions whenthey're working with you, or is
that something that just doesn'treally?
Steve Afra (21:40):
Yeah.
Dr. Shay (21:42):
How do you get
Steve Afra (21:43):
them off to the other side?
On both ways, right?
With both ways.
You could have an underwriterthat's emotionally attached to a
deal where they feel it's a baddeal for some reason.
It could be attached.
Maybe they don't like the loanofficer.
And all of a sudden, all ofthis particular loan officer's
(22:07):
deals are just getting denied.
And you're saying, well, what'shappening?
So when you're looking at theKPIs and you realize that,
you're like, there's somethingwrong.
Is it the loan officer?
Well, no, because if it's goingto a different underwriter, his
deals are getting approved andthey're coming this way, they're
all getting denied.
Right?
(22:28):
It should be both ways, right?
So if he's writing bad deals,then across the board his deals
should be getting.
So then you have a conversationwith the underwriter and you
have to say, hey, you could likethis person or not like this
person.
That has nothing to do with thecrux of the deal.
You've got to make thatdecision.
You've got to base yourdecision on the deal.
Well, this person, you know,they're always giving this type
(22:52):
of deal.
Well, that's none of yourbusiness.
Like, And if you can't handleit, then that's...
So we do, yes.
And that happens,unfortunately.
Dr. Shay (23:00):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
And I guess reflecting on your,again, your own entrepreneur
journey, are there any, I guess,lessons or relationships or
attitudes about money that youhad to unlearn to get where you
are today?
Steve Afra (23:14):
I think that, you know, what do they call it?
Commission breath, right?
Where...
everything you try to do is tryto make money.
But people sense that off ofyou, right?
I think what people forget iswhatever business that you're
trying to do, if you're tryingto do it well, with the
(23:37):
betterment of whoever you'retrying to do it with in mind,
right?
Whether it's, I'm trying tosell real estate.
I'll just give you an example.
Well, I'm going to try andstick this person in a...
you know, more expensive houseso I can make more commission.
Rather than listening to thatperson and try to place that
(23:59):
person in the right place that'sright for them.
It makes a big difference.
And that energy, whoever it is,it's going to pick up on it and
you're going to end up losing.
Whether you want to call itkarma, whether you want to call
it whatever you want to call it.
It's just, you know, money isthe same as energy.
And It's just, it is what it is.
(24:21):
And when you attach negativeenergy to it, it's gonna have
negative effects one way or theother.
It could be financial, andthat's a good thing, because if
it comes in a different way,like health, which it can also,
then there's nothing you can do.
Dr. Shay (24:40):
And can you talk to me a little bit about resiliency
in your line of work?
Having to push, like you said,the tough markets, the people,
the emotions, all the pieces.
Steve Afra (24:48):
So...
I'll tell you resiliency andentrepreneurship in general.
In order to be an entrepreneur,you have to be able to endure
the losses.
And a lot of people can't.
And when they face the firstloss is when they'll pack up
their bags and they'll head homeand they'll say, well, I need
to have a job or it's a W2 joband I can't handle this anymore.
(25:09):
And my wife is here and she'smy witness.
There've been times where wehaven't had to look at price
tags and we're buyingeverything.
And then there've been timeswhere we don't even know how to
feed our daughter.
And it's unfortunate, but thosecome.
But the thing is, you have tohave enough faith in yourself to
(25:30):
know that even in those timeswhere you're just looking around
and you're like, well, what arewe gonna do?
But if you apply the sameprinciples, you don't cheat
anyone, you don't lie, you stayconsistent that you're going to
come out of those times.
And, you know, I'll say thatit's like a slingshot sometimes,
(25:54):
and you have to believe that,where when you're falling down,
you feel like, wow, I'm justnever going to get back.
But sometimes it's like, youknow, when you have a slingshot,
you have to pull it back andlet it go in order to really go
further.
And the further you pull thatback, right, the further you
(26:14):
pull that back, the furtheryou're going to go.
And if you have that belief tounderstand, hey, I'm falling,
but maybe I need to fall really,really back in order to go
really, really forward at somepoint.
And that's the faith that youhave to have in yourself.
Dr. Shay (26:33):
Gosh, this is...
You're killing me softly rightnow because as a new
entrepreneur, I'm going througha lot of this right now.
It's so up and down and it's sointeresting to see or to learn
how I think other people thinkyour day looks like.
I think they just think thatyou're playing hopscotch or just
writing down like I'mjournaling all day.
It's a nonstop grind and it'salmost like a you're lucky you
(26:56):
get to work for yourself type ofthing.
I'm what?
Steve Afra (27:00):
But they don't understand that, right?
It's...
So my nephew is really, reallybright.
And he got a job with PriceWaterhouse, right?
And they're working him todeath.
I mean, this kid is putting in14, 15 hour days, let's say,
right?
And his dad, which is mybrother-in-law, is ultra
(27:24):
successful.
And I said, they said, youknow, wow, they're killing this
guy.
He said, well, you don't evenrealize.
He said, I guarantee if you login the numbers, that you work,
it's gonna be more than my son'swork.
And how do you determine that?
Because I'll wake up, and justbecause we don't punch in the
(27:47):
clock, we don't realize how manyhours it is, right?
Because if we did punch in theclock, it's gonna be two times,
maybe three times the amountanybody else in the organization
is working.
And my wife witnesses thisbecause she sees the late night
calls.
(28:07):
She sees the weekend calls withmy business partners.
She sees me up at night atmidnight returning emails,
right?
Where I don't expect that,right?
From anyone in my organization.
I feel bad sometimes for myexecutive assistant that's here
(28:27):
also because she will be gettingemails on the weekend.
I don't expect her to respond,but she's going to get them or
she will get them late at nightbecause I'm having conversations
with different people and Ineed to remind myself and remind
her to please help me out.
And she'll wake up in themorning.
But that's what people don'trealize.
(28:47):
We're not on the clock.
Dr. Shay (28:49):
Yes, exactly.
And shout out to all thespouses out there supporting
entrepreneurs.
Steve Afra (28:53):
Oh, yeah, 100%.
Because they're in on it withyou, right?
Dr. Shay (28:56):
Yes, absolutely.
Steve Afra (28:57):
They're there.
And they're kind of livingvicariously through whatever is
going on in your life and what'sgoing on in your business.
But the other thing I want tosay for entrepreneurs is you
have to stay consistent.
Dr. Shay (29:13):
I love that word.
Steve Afra (29:14):
It's very important.
And I tell people, I know...
Plenty of crazy people that aresuccessful, right?
But you want to know something?
They're consistently crazy,right?
And at least people know, wow,I know this guy is a psychopath.
He's crazy as hell.
But...
Dr. Shay (29:31):
You know what to expect.
Steve Afra (29:32):
You know what to expect.
But if they were to go to him,I have one person in particular
that I know, right?
But he's great at what he does.
And sometimes I'll sit thereand say, how does this guy even
get clients?
He's crazy.
But at least they know he'scrazy.
And they're, oh, you got todeal with this guy.
He's not.
Well, he gets the job done.
Right, right.
(29:53):
But what if he was really niceone day, then he was medium
nice, and then he was crazy?
It would be too inconsistent,right?
And I tell people, either goright or go left.
But if you're going to be inthe middle, no one knows what
they're going to get.
That's when you get run over onthe road, right?
Pick the lane.
(30:14):
Either I'm going up or I'mcoming down.
Pick one.
But everybody's got to knowwhat they're getting from you at
the end of the dayconsistently.
Dr. Shay (30:24):
Yeah, I think that translates to relationships too,
right?
It's nice to know what you'recoming home to every day.
100%.
Steve Afra (30:29):
Unless you're married to a Gemini.
Oh, my God.
My son's a Gemini.
I don't know what I'm gettingin the morning.
I tell my wife, you know.
Whoever this guy's gonna end upwith, let's help him.
Dr. Shay (30:44):
For the record, I'm a Gemini too.
And my partner told me I'm themost consistent person he's ever
met.
Steve Afra (30:51):
Wow.
Dr. Shay (30:52):
So shout out to the Gemini.
Steve Afra (30:54):
I think Gemini females are different than
Gemini males.
Because my poor mother had todeal with my father, who was a
Gemini.
I got to see Gemini male.
And my son happens to be acarbon copy of my father.
So
Dr. Shay (31:12):
what do you hope the next generation understands
about money that yours didn't?
Steve Afra (31:19):
I think my generation understood a lot more
than the new generation.
And I'll tell you, I think thenew generation doesn't
understand the value of moneyand that their whole thing is
work smarter not harder andthat's not the case it's work
harder and smarter right andi'll tell you this i know plenty
(31:43):
of people that work harder thansmarter and they have way
better results and they're moresuccessful and that's just what
it is it's a matter of i think alot of people in this
generation want instantgratification because They want
(32:03):
Amazon.
And it's not even Amazon nextday.
It's Amazon now.
They want TV shows.
Where my generation had to...
When I was watching cartoons,it was Saturday morning
cartoons.
And I had to wait.
And when we had TV shows, itwas every week.
(32:25):
We would watch 30 minutes andthen we had to wait for the next
Wednesday or the next Tuesdayto watch the next episode.
Dr. Shay (32:32):
Gosh.
Steve Afra (32:34):
Right?
It was just crazy.
That's horrible.
That's horrible.
Now they get Netflix andthey're watching eight episodes
in one night.
Guilty.
My wife too.
Yeah.
She's the same thing, right?
And, you know, we're watching anew show.
She's miserable that we have towait until Friday until it's
coming out.
But for me, it's exciting.
I miss those days.
(32:54):
Or if they want food, I mean,we had to go ride our bikes 30
minutes, sit down in a Chinesefood place with God knows what
the hell they were serving us.
It wasn't meat, you know?
Wait, take the bus or, youknow, ride the bike 30 minutes.
Now my kids want food.
Instantaneous.
They want...
Movies, it's instantaneous.
(33:14):
And I think the wholegeneration, they think that
money comes like that too.
And it really doesn't.
It's not.
They look at certain peoplethat are instantaneously
successful, but that's not forthe majority of people.
It's not the case.
Dr. Shay (33:30):
Yeah.
That's the part that's hard tograsp.
I think I find myself sometimesI think I'm grounded enough to
know everything you just saidmakes sense.
But the little part of me, youknow, I've been at this full
time for like, let's just sayfive months.
And I'm like, I'm not rich yet.
Like, what is this?
I feel like I'm doingeverything right.
But you also, at the same time,it's intimidating to see how
(33:52):
many podcasters on YouTube whohave millions of views and not
compare yourself to that.
And kind of find the balance ofwhat's real and, you know, how
long it really does take.
Steve Afra (34:02):
So one other thing is, For entrepreneurs, I say,
never compare yourself tosomebody else.
It's compare yourself toyourself.
So it's, you know, I have10,000 followers, I wanna have
15.
And when I get 15, I wanna have20.
I'm never looking at the nextguy and say, well, this guy's
(34:23):
got 30, I have to chase him.
Who cares about that guy?
Just set goals.
And whatever goals that you'resetting, people say set
achievable goals.
I kind of disagree.
Set somewhat unachievablegoals, right?
I
Dr. Shay (34:41):
like that.
Steve Afra (34:41):
You just want to reach a little bit further.
And I think that's the key.
Dr. Shay (34:46):
Yeah.
I mean, it's just such a fault,right, to not compare yourself
to others.
But like, of course, you'reabsolutely right.
And I think what happens a lotof times, too, is you're
comparing where you are at thestart of the race and they're
already at the end.
half mile or whatever it is.
And you just don't see thatpart for them to get to that
half mile.
So that's the part you're not
Steve Afra (35:06):
seeing.
And we don't know what they'redoing to get there, right?
As long as you're doing yourbest.
So I'll tell you, for instance,again, I'll go back to my wife.
My wife is a very talentedphysical specimen in terms of
athletics, right?
And whether me, I was what wascalled a blue collar athlete,
(35:29):
right?
know what a blue collar athleteis and it means i had decent um
athletic ability but i had suchdrive that made me a good
athlete and i got a chance to bea collegiate athlete because of
that where there was plenty ofathletes that were way better
athletically physically than methat couldn't make it so now if
(35:50):
my wife had back then my bluecollar work with her physical
activity like physical abilitiesshe probably could have been a
famous athlete right which youknow it didn't happen for
whatever reason she you know shewas successful in different
(36:11):
ways um but the the whole thewhole point is you have to know
like what are my limitationsright and at an early age i knew
what my limitations wereathletically and i Just, I would
never, I tried to put theblinders on and not look at the
other kids that were maybefaster than me in the 40.
(36:34):
And because then I would get, Iwould get nagged out.
Like, oh man, I can't competewith these kids, right?
So it's kind of helped me inbusiness life where whatever
could be happening around me,right?
I aspire, I look at people andI say, oh, this guy's
successful, right?
But I'm never chasing him.
I'm just chasing myself.
(36:54):
Yeah.
And setting goals for myself,whatever that goal is.
Dr. Shay (36:59):
What's your relationship to legacy?
Steve Afra (37:01):
So
Dr. Shay (37:02):
I
Steve Afra (37:05):
try to tell people not to have an ego, right?
But I've put 30 years plus intothe mortgage business.
And when it comes to legacy,I've put my dues into this
business.
I've given it my whole life.
And the legacy that I want whenI leave and exit this business,
(37:31):
I want my legacy to be, Iexited better than anybody else
in the business.
And that's my goal, my legacy.
Now, personal legacy is mychildren, right?
And however, I just want themto be good humans when I'm not
(37:54):
here.
And to treat others, just bekind people.
My personal legacy iscompletely zero ego compared to
my business legacy.
My business legacy is all ego,whether it's right or it's
wrong, it is what it is.
It's the competitive nature ofme.
(38:14):
My personal legacy is if Ileave behind kind human beings,
I know I did the right thing inlife.
Dr. Shay (38:21):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
And let's see, if you had towrite your biggest lesson behind
your career on a billboard,what would it say?
You can't fit a lot of words onthere now.
Steve Afra (38:34):
Persistence broke resistance.
Elaborate a little bit.
I just don't take no for ananswer.
I like it.
When people say no...
in business, I always take itas a maybe.
It kind of translates like, no,it doesn't translate as no in
(38:56):
my mind.
It goes, well, maybe there's ashot, right?
And then I just don't stop.
I don't stop.
Dr. Shay (39:04):
And you know, so again, my podcast is about
resolution, the resolution room,right?
So after decades of watchingpeople chase wealth, make bold
bets, and rebuild from failure,what in your experience does
real resolution require?
I
Steve Afra (39:22):
can tell you that there have been times in my
life, like I said, where I'vehad tremendous success, followed
by the lowest of lows.
On a personal level, and on afinancial level, where a lot of
my peers, a lot of my friends,they kind of, I guess, look up
(39:47):
to me and, well, my best friend,even a year ago when he was
facing some sort of adversityhimself said, I can't believe
how many times you went throughthis and you made it through.
It's amazing, right?
But I think you have to have,not I think, I know you have to
(40:08):
have faith.
And that's the most importantthing.
To understand that even if youhit rock bottom, which I have,
right?
To say, maybe there's somegrace even in that.
Because if I lose everything,then I get to really rebuild
myself.
And then this time around, I'llget to really rebuild myself in
(40:30):
a way where I'm not going tolose everything.
And the fortress that I'm goingto build, it's going to be on
such crazy foundation that it'sgoing to withhold and withstand
anything that's going to come.
And a lot of people don't get achance to do that, right?
Because some of them are goingto live in a house or a fortress
that's always half built andthat shaky ground, right?
(40:53):
And sometimes losingeverything, is the grace of the
almighty, right?
Because he's giving you cleanslate.
Here you go.
How do you want to rebuildyourself?
And as hard as it is, you get achance to do it.
Dr. Shay (41:11):
Steve, Steve, Steve.
Thank you so much.
Can you let everyone know whereto follow you in your
Steve Afra (41:16):
work?
So they can find me onInstagram at afrasteve.
That's my Instagram.
I'm on LinkedIn.
And I think I'm on YouTube.
I am.
And those are the best ways toget to me.
Dr. Shay (41:31):
I mean, thank you so much for coming in the residency
Steve Afra (41:33):
room.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
And I wish you the best ofluck.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Just keep at it.
Dr. Shay (41:40):
In a market that's constantly shifting and in a
culture that often confusesimage with impact, Steve
reminded us that real successisn't built on luck.
It's built on listening well,reading people with care, and
learning when to lean in or walkaway.
From first-time buyers toseasoned investors, from
spreadsheet calculations to gutinstincts, what this episode
(42:01):
revealed is simple.
Real estate is emotional.
And navigating it well requiresclarity, not just about the
deal, but about yourself.
Whether you're building aportfolio or just trying to make
bold moves in your own life,the lesson is the same.
Calculate at risk is never justabout math.
It's about meaning.
Because at the end of the day,your most powerful investment is
(42:23):
in the property.
It's in the person and who youbecome through the process.
As always, thank you forjoining me in the Resolution
Room.
If this conversation moved you,challenged you, or gave you
something to carry forward,consider supporting the show.
You can explore our wearablewisdom collection in our mind
(42:43):
shop, where each piece isdesigned to spark reflection and
dialogue.
You can also join our growingcommunity for behind-the-scenes
conversations, resources, andsupport of your own journey
through tension andtransformation.
And if you just want to saythank you in a simple way, you
can always buy me a coffee.
Every gesture helps keep thisspace going.
(43:05):
All the links are in the shownotes.
And until next time, Keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
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