July 11, 2025 • 29 mins
Summary
In this episode, Dr. Nashay Lowe talks with Lila Raouf, an expert in international development and emergency management, to explore the concept of cultural competency. They discuss the importance of cultural humility over mastery, the evolution of understanding cultural competency through personal experiences, and the necessity of curiosity in cross-cultural interactions. The conversation highlights the risks of lacking cultural competency in the U.S. and emphasizes the need for social cohesion. Lila shares insights from her research on refugee education and the potential for positive change in humanitarian work, concluding with a hopeful outlook for the future.
Key Takeaways
- Cultural humility is more important than cultural mastery.
- Cultural competency should be viewed as a mindset.
- Personal experiences shape our understanding of cultural competency.
- Preparation and openness are crucial in research.
- Curiosity leads to deeper understanding across cultures.
- Lack of cultural competency risks social cohesion in the U.S.
- Americans often have a different perspective on cultural norms.
- There are many ways to approach education and humanitarian work.
- Cultural competency is essential for effective leadership.
- Hope exists for positive change in humanitarian efforts.
This episode may include brief sponsor messages that help support the show. For an ad-free listening experience, consider subscribing to The Resolution Room.
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2471266/subscribe
Please also Follow, Share, Rate, and Review us on your favorite platform! 🫶🏾
https://ratethispodcast.com/resolutionroom
To bring a conversation like this to your stage, please visit https://forms.gle/XineBr3err9W1HD49
Want to talk with me 1:1? Visit: intro.co/NashayLowe
Shop at The Mind Shop and explore our collection designed to carry the spirit of The Resolution Room into everyday life.
https://lowe-insights-mind-shop.fourthwall.com/
And if you just want to say thank you in a simple way, you can always buy me a coffee—every gesture helps keep this space going.
https://buymeacoffee.com/resolutionroom
Theme music credit:
https://uppbeat.io/t/aavirall/soft-waves-forming
License code: YHLX3CWSWGWNCJZT
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Shay (00:02):
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
In this episode, I sit downwith international development
(00:43):
and emergency managementprofessional Lila Raouf to
unpack what cultural competencyreally looks like, not just in
theory, but in high stakes, realworld environments.
Lila brings grounded insightinto how culture, language,
history, and power all shape theway we engage across
differences.
Together, we'll explore whycultural humility matters more
(01:03):
than cultural mastery and howthis work is essential not just
abroad, but in our owncommunities and institutions.
Lila, can you introduceyourself?
Tell us about yourinternational experiences and
the current research that you'redoing.
Lila Raouf (01:17):
Sure.
Hi, Shay.
It's so nice to see you aftersuch a long time.
My name is Laila Raouf.
So I have worked in theinternational development,
refugee resettlement, andemergency management space for
the past 10 years.
I started my career with theUnited States Peace Corps as a
(01:39):
youth development and educationvolunteer specialist in Jordan
and Kyrgyzstan.
And then after some years inthe development space, I got
experience with refugeeeducation and refugee
resettlement in the UnitedStates and then transitioned to
emergency management where Iworked for the Federal Emergency
Management Agency for a fewyears out of Washington, D.C.
(02:01):
Last year, I left my positionbecause I was awarded a
Fulbright Fellowship to theUnited Kingdom.
So I'm now at UniversityCollege London.
I study at the Institute ofEducation and I'm pursuing a
master's degree in education andand international development,
conflict, emergencies, andpeace.
It's a long name, butessentially it is focused on
(02:23):
education in conflict andemergency settings.
So I hope to specialize in massdisplacement and forced
displacement context.
So my current research isfocused on the influx of
Sudanese refugees into Egyptsince the resurgence of conflict
in April 2023.
And I'm studying Sudaneserefugee-led education
(02:46):
initiatives.
So I'm really kind of focusedon how Refugees Respond in
Education Emergencies.
Either before or while GlobalNorth humanitarian actors set up
education interventions.
So a lot of my research isfocused on refugee agency, how
they perceive education andeducation during these emergency
(03:07):
situations.
And I'm looking foropportunities for collaboration
between all these differentstakeholders who work in these
complex environments.
So your topic about culturalcompetency is really interesting
to me.
And I guess when I wasreflecting on it, I guess I do
use a lot of these skills in myresearch and in my past
positions.
Dr. Shay (03:25):
Yeah, without even thinking about it, you are the
expert in this.
And might I say, I think I wantto be you when I grow up.
Lila Raouf (03:35):
I think you're just as cool as me.
I mean, you have your PhD.
You're like a real researcher.
I'm just a baby.
I'm just getting started.
Okay.
Dr. Shay (03:42):
Well, I'm rooting for you, and it's been so amazing to
see all that you've done sinceyour time at the Peace Corps
when we first met.
So you've worked in vastlydifferent cultural, political,
and humanitarian environments.
So when you hear the termcultural competency, what does
that mean to you?
Lila Raouf (03:58):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think if you...
have experience in theinternational foreign affairs
arena.
They throw this term around asa soft skill, which I personally
don't agree with.
I think it's a technical, Iwouldn't even say expertise.
It's just maybe a mindset, away about you to have this
(04:20):
cultural competency.
I think if you ask generalinternational development
professionals, they're going todefine it as the ability to
navigate an environment that'sdifferent from you culturally.
And then how you defineculturally, there's so many
definitions of that.
And I would, for the most part,agree with that.
I think the origins of theinternational development field
(04:43):
makes that term a little bitcomplicated and makes you maybe
assume that cultural competencycan only be done in maybe a
country far away from where youare.
It kind of divides people,maybe that we're so different
from each other that we have tolearn these unique skills in
order to be able to worktogether or to work in that
country.
I don't agree with that.
(05:04):
There's so many instances ofcultural competency being used
even within the United States.
So although I agree on abroader level, I think cultural
competency is just the abilityto meet people halfway and to
understand and relate tosomeone, maybe empathize with
someone who is a Right.
How has your understanding of
Dr. Shay (05:38):
cultural competency evolved through your direct
experiences?
Lila Raouf (05:43):
It's so interesting because I'm in my 30s now and I
waited after working for about10 years to go back to doing a
Master's of Arts.
And so now I'm actuallylearning a bunch of the theory
that kind of guides my practiceafter I've been working.
So I'm going to think with allthis theory, I'm answering your
(06:04):
questions because this is allfresh in my brain, but I would
say when I first exiteduniversity and joined the United
States Peace Corps, I had avery surface-level understanding
of the internationaldevelopment field.
I didn't understand the historyof the humanitarian industry,
of the aid industry.
(06:24):
And so I think I had a veryEurocentric, Western, even white
savior understanding ofcultural competency and
development in general.
And it's important to kind oflearn about the history of this
industry in order to dismantlesome of those beliefs that are
still present in the field andin the sector.
So I would say the more directexperience I got, I started
(06:47):
maybe complicating some of thosenotions and in particular
cultural competency.
Like I mentioned after yourfirst question, I used to think
of it as like, oh, this is asoft skill that you put on a
resume.
It's something that has to betrained into you and taught.
It has to be a skill that istransferred.
And I would Yeah.
trained perfectly in a person.
(07:29):
There are a lot of people whohave worked in international
development for decades, and Iwouldn't consider them
culturally competent at all whenit comes to direct experience
or in-person interactions withthem.
So that's just my opinion.
And that's just years and yearsof working in this field in
different positions and havingto interact with a quote
(07:51):
unquote, different than me andthen actually not that different
than me at all.
I think I'm the most differentfrom people within the United
States.
Maybe I practice the mostcultural patience with people
within this sector from theUnited States.
Well, that was a bit of atangent, but it has changed a
lot over the years.
Dr. Shay (08:11):
We're here for the tangent.
One thing I had to learnWhereas everyone who has been a
lot of places or even grew up ina sort of diverse neighborhood
or a city, that doesn'ttranslate to cultural
competency.
Lila Raouf (08:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
So many people spend theirwhole lives traveling, going on
vacation and never interact withpeople that are different than
them and have no interest reallyin getting on someone's level
and understanding people aroundthem.
So I would agree with you.
I don't think that necessarilyyields cultural competency just
because you've lived in a lot ofcountries.
Dr. Shay (08:46):
Exactly.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow your cultural background
both supports and complicatesthe work that you're doing in
the Middle East?
That's a good question. I wouldsay my First big girl experience
in Peace Corps Jordan is a goodexample.
There are lots of examples, butthis was a foundational, really
clear example that demonstratesthis.
(09:08):
So I'm half Egyptian, I'm halfArab, and my family's Muslim,
even though I don't maybepresent the way that Muslims are
stereotypically presented.
So in Jordan, I caused a lot ofconfusion.
People can tell from my nameand my hair that I'm Arab and
have Arab roots.
And in some way, it didn't giveme a little bit of privilege.
(09:30):
I think people were a littlebit more comfortable and relaxed
around me.
There was an instantconnection, something we could
quickly have a conversation andconnect about.
There were some maybe differentexpectations for me from other
people working.
So for example, I don't speakArabic perfectly.
And so I was maybe extrascrutinized for that.
And And also when it came downto religion, I don't practice
(09:51):
wearing hijab, for example, andthat was a bit confusing.
So, you know, at first it ischallenging because you're
having to explain your identitya lot to people.
But that's, I guess, part ofthe cultural competency as well.
I'm having to share a lot aboutmyself and in order to learn
about others.
So, yeah, so it did.
(10:12):
And I would say that experiencetaught me a lot.
You know, I like...
lived cultural humility wheremy family is from the Middle
East, but that doesn'tnecessarily mean I know
everything about all countriesin the Middle East.
That's silly of me to make allthese assumptions.
So I was really checked in myassumptions when I went to
Jordan and being questioned somuch and interrogated about all
(10:34):
these different parts of myidentity.
It really makes you realizewhat you don't know you don't
know.
And definitely take thatexperience with me and just try
to stay humble when I'mconnecting with new people.
Yeah, yeah.
And you hit it just as you'repursuing your master's.
And if you do anything higherthan that, I can tell you right
now, all you're going to walkaway with is knowing that you
(10:55):
don't know anything.
Lila Raouf (10:57):
Yeah, I would say Each new experience I get, and I
try to have a diverse range ofexperiences.
So I know that I am throwingmyself into, you know, very
different situations with eachnew job, but definitely my
master's, I'm just realizingthat I don't know anything.
And I think that's a good,honestly, a good mindset to have
because I'm like open tolearning.
Like I don't have much, I trynot to have much of an ego about
(11:20):
it.
Dr. Shay (11:21):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So speaking of being open, andI'm glad you shifted into the
humility aspect of this.
You've been so many places andso many, not opposing cultures,
but cultures that are clearlydifferent from one another,
right?
So how do you balancepreparation with openness to
being either wrong or surprisedas you go from country to
(11:42):
country?
Lila Raouf (11:43):
So how you balance preparation, what do you mean by
preparation exactly?
Dr. Shay (11:48):
So I'm assuming for you, you're going into certain
places with very specificreasons for being there.
You might be looking for data.
And I think as a researcher,you can already speak to
research bias and all thesetypes of things that can kind of
cloud your judgment.
So in trying to be prepared forwhat you're there to do, but at
the same time being open to theunexpected, how do you balance
(12:10):
those two?
Lila Raouf (12:11):
Yeah, that's a...
That's a very good question.
I would say in my research,which is very fresh, I just
returned from doing my datacollection for my master's.
I was in Egypt interviewingSudanese refugees and
organizations.
So this was a good example ofwhere I had some expectations.
(12:31):
There were I think even goinginto that, I was expecting to be
surprised.
I was expecting maybe need torework my question a bit.
I was expecting maybe a littlepushback or maybe people not to
understand what I'm researching.
I don't know if I have a veryclear answer for it, but I do
(12:55):
think it's a little bit ofhumility.
Maybe I'm a little shy, so Ijust naturally don't think I...
know everything there is toknow in a situation, which I
think helps with research.
And then I also, with research,I mean, I'm very vocal in my
program because I have, I workedin international development,
but I also worked in ICD and Iprocess development in the
(13:19):
international development space.
So I'm pretty comfortabletalking about intersectionality
and all these different ways toanalyze and reflect on your
identity, the very multiplefacets of your identity.
And so I think that helps me aswell, because whenever I have a
conversation with someone, if Ifeel myself having emotional
reaction, or maybe I'm doubtingthem, or I'm not believing what
(13:41):
they say, I always try to referback to the intersectionality,
that pinwheel of all thedifferent facets of your
identity and see maybe what'sfiring in me and what I need to
maybe reflect on a little bit tosee if that's causing any type
of Girl, that is the key toeverything.
Dr. Shay (14:13):
That and reflection, self-awareness and
self-reflection.
And I actually want to go backto something you mentioned
earlier.
So when you were talking aboutyour experience, especially in
Jordan, but the Middle East andyou having Middle Eastern
descent as well, why do youthink it's critical to approach
communities with curiosityrather than assumption, even
when you share a background?
Lila Raouf (14:35):
Yeah, I mean...
Thank you so much for havingme.
It's, I think, different whenyou have family that's
(14:58):
constantly challenging you andyour beliefs.
So you're constantly having tobe open to learning and
analyzing and code switching,like I was talking about.
So even on the individualfamily level, I think I've had
to be more attuned to nuancesand diversity, even within a
really specific context, like myfamily unit, for example.
(15:20):
My parents are from differentreligions.
They're from different racial,ethnic backgrounds.
I'm constantly trying toobserve or just understand
what's going on in differencesand communication.
I mean, that happens on thevery basic level.
So if that's happening in justmy family, you can imagine in a
country, in a region.
(15:40):
There's way more diversity thanyou can ever imagine.
I mean, honestly, I think PeaceCorps was a good experience for
that because even though weweren't there that long and I
did serve in Kyrgyzstan after, Ileft that experience knowing
that even though I was there fortwo years and I lived in a
rural village in Kyrgyzstan fora very long time, I only knew
(16:00):
maybe 2%.
I knew the very surface of thatsociety and that culture.
That was just the tip of theiceberg.
So I think...
Even when I'm going into newwork situations, I kind of have
that humility about me that I'monly going to get to know a
small percentage.
The very surface of this isgoing to take much longer for me
(16:21):
to understand the root causesand whatnot.
So, yeah.
Dr. Shay (16:27):
And...
We talked about this a littlebit earlier too, but we can
build on this.
So we often think of culturalcompetency as something you need
abroad, quote unquote, andespecially with the current
political climate in the U.S.
and all these things going on,arguably now more than ever.
What are some of the risks oflacking the skill here in the
(16:48):
U.S.?
?
And I will just add that Iunderstand stuff like this,
cultural competency, humility,empathy, compassion are becoming
like these little buzzwordsthat everybody is tired of
hearing, but they are tangiblethings that just as human
beings, you would hope peopleare just practicing naturally.
Lila Raouf (17:03):
Yeah, I think I do have like a strong opinion or
answer to this question.
I think in the context of theU.S., The lack of cultural
competency is risking socialcohesion and peace building.
For my emergency managers outthere, you can think of cultural
competency as a mitigationtool.
It's going to yield benefitsincrease social cohesion and
(17:25):
decrease potential for risk.
I mean, there's many problemsgoing on.
It just doesn't come down tobeing empathetic with others.
Cultural competency also can beat a systemic level.
And removing culturalcompetency from the systemic
level, like we're seeing in theUnited States, has real
consequences.
Awesome.
and symptoms.
(17:45):
But yeah, I think culturalcompetency is a pathway forward
for social cohesion.
And so it should be takenseriously.
I know you are focused onconflict resolution.
I mean, it's kind of the base.
If you walk into a situationwhere you have no awareness
about the other party, and youhave no interest in
understanding the other party,then you're not going to get
(18:10):
anywhere.
Like, it's not even, nobodylikes to be spoken to, you know,
with someone who has likeassumptions about you.
So yeah.
Understanding
Dr. Shay (18:21):
is the bridge to almost just about every
conflict.
Everybody just wants thatdignity, that understanding that
that's what builds commonground.
Lila Raouf (18:29):
Yeah.
And I think maybe if we'regoing to try to like attach a
metaphor to it, I remember welearned this in our pre-service
training and I've stuck withthis my whole life.
It's like, I should not expectto go 50-50 to meet someone
halfway on that bridge.
I need to expect to go 80 andhave that person go 20% if we
want to go anywhere.
So you should just prepare.
(18:50):
Can you imagine if everybodywas doing that?
If everybody was going theextra mile to understand someone
on the other side of the tableas them?
Wait,
Dr. Shay (18:58):
first of all, I don't remember that.
Lila Raouf (19:00):
I remember it.
It really stuck with me becauseit was a lesson about humility
and it was a lesson about You'recoming from XYZ background.
You have more capacity to gofurther, to lean in more, to
give more empathy than the otherparties.
So you should.
And it was, I think, a verygood lesson.
And I think it was consideringlike the circumstances we were
(19:23):
in and like majority like whiteprivilege cohort of volunteers
going to Middle East.
Like I thought that was a goodway to phrase it.
And so I do think culturalcompetency isn't necessarily
meeting halfway.
It's like taking the extrasteps to really understand
someone, maybe 80, 90% acrossthe bridge from them.
I
Dr. Shay (19:41):
love that.
Okay, now I'm going to use thatnow that I have been refreshed.
So what's one lesson youlearned about human connection
across cultures that you carryinto every space you enter,
minus the bridge you just toldme about?
Lila Raouf (19:57):
Yeah, this is a big question.
I think the more I interactwith other cultures in different
parts of the world, the more Irealize that Americans are the
ones that are different.
And the rest of the world iskind of more on the same page
with each other.
Once you leave the UnitedStates, between other countries,
there are less culturaldifferences.
(20:19):
There's more opportunities forsimilarity and connection than
other countries and the UnitedStates.
And I have some thoughts aboutwhy that is, but no, that's not
the point of this podcast.
But my point is that I actuallythink people are way more
similar in terms of their valuesthan they are different.
(20:40):
Sometimes those values manifestdifferently and then people get
distracted by how it looks onthe surface level.
But deep down, the value, forthe most part, is the same
everywhere.
Not the same, but quitesimilar.
There are many, many, manypoints for connection around the
world.
So it's just whether or notyou're willing to be distracted
(21:02):
by that surface or maybe go alittle bit deeper and understand
what's going on there in orderto try to find a way to connect
with someone.
And I do think, yeah, I justthink Americans are kind of the
weird ones.
Like we're the ones who are alittle weird, like to the rest
of the world.
And so we need to do the workRight,
Dr. Shay (21:21):
right.
Doing the work.
Testing
Lila Raouf (21:23):
our humility.
Yeah, we need to be humble andrealize that really the world
does not revolve around the waywe do it in the United States.
There are so many ways to doand operate and be around the
world.
And maybe there's something tolearn from other people.
Dr. Shay (21:39):
Yeah, I think that's such an important point.
Because again, I think I kindof mentioned this earlier.
I think there's a misconceptionsometimes that people from the
United States have that the factthat you're from a
multicultural, diverse countrymeans that you're culturally
competent.
And those are two differentthings.
And if you never step outsideof your city, your town, your
(22:03):
state, your country, it's anentire world and we're one
little tiny part of it.
And our culture has built us upto believe that we're the
center of it.
Right.
Yeah.
And
Lila Raouf (22:15):
I mean, in a way, that's like kind of what my
current research is trying tocomplicate or interrogate a bit.
It's like why I'm looking atthese like Western centric,
Eurocentric ideas about qualityeducation and education during
emergency settings and stuff.
I'm wondering if there's otherways of knowing, if there's
(22:36):
other ways of addressingeducation during emergency
situations.
And I'm looking to refugees asagents who can decide their
futures rather than justbeneficiaries of aid that's
mainly coming from a fewcountries from the West.
So, yeah, I would agree withyou.
And I'm constantly kind of likelooking at different ways.
(22:58):
post-colonial and decolonialtheories to try to understand
these really complicatedproblems around the world and
see if maybe we're just notstubborn, but we've just been
made to believe that there isonly one right way of doing
things when there are many waysof doing and knowing and
learning and educating andthings like that.
Dr. Shay (23:22):
That pre-exists our own country.
I think we forget too, Americais a very young country.
So young.
Lila Raouf (23:28):
Yes, so young.
This is what I'm always readingand learning.
The more I read and learn, themore angrier I get and the more
disillusioned I get.
And then I feel more optimisticbecause I'm learning and
getting slowly
Dr. Shay (23:41):
better at it.
That's a cycle.
You're going to get frustrated,then relieved, and then all
over again.
And then
Lila Raouf (23:46):
energized and then tired.
Yeah, I'm going through all ofthat now.
Dr. Shay (23:50):
Yep.
Well, let's keep on that noteof optimism.
So what gives you hope about...
where we're headed, especiallyin international education and
humanitarian work?
Lila Raouf (24:02):
I mean, it's a tough time right now for humanitarian
work for a lot of differentreasons.
I think my research is a bittimely because the aid cuts and
the shift of many countriestowards more nationalist or
isolationist foreign policypolicies issues or perspectives
(24:25):
is going to force us to look atalternative ways of supporting
others.
So there is in the policy worldkind of push towards more
localization.
and more integration ofparticipants into research and
into solutions into theseproblems.
And so I know I'm justscratching the surface of that
by looking at refugeeperspectives to education
(24:48):
emergencies.
But there is a lot of researchout there around, for example,
refugee teachers into theemergency response planning and
things like that.
There's loads of research outthere.
And it's just surprising thatI'm just now learning about it
after working in the field for10 years.
It's not surprising.
It's calculated.
But now that I'm learning allof this, I do think there is a
(25:10):
way forward.
It's just whether or not we canchange enough minds and
mobilize enough people toconsider alternate routes.
And it would require shiftingpower, some people giving up
power and redistributing powerand resources in order to move
forward.
But I do think, same within theUnited States, maybe you have
(25:30):
to hit rock bottom to consideralternate solutions.
And so the aid cuts in thehumanitarian field because of
the US government, there mightbe possibilities or people are
willing to gamble on othergrassroots, more alternate
initiatives and maybe considerthe complete restructures of the
(25:51):
way humanitarian aid andinternational education
operates.
That's me being reallyidealistic, but I will say that
The research is there andpathways are there.
It's just whether or not thosegreater forces want to use that
information moving forward.
So yeah, I would say right nowin terms of the cycle, I'm a
(26:11):
little bit more optimisticbecause I'm like realizing
there's alternate ways ofeducation.
And
Dr. Shay (26:18):
like you said, the more that you're learning this
stuff, one thing that's going toblow your mind is As you
mentioned, a lot of theseframeworks already exist.
Do you think you're coming upwith something brand new?
No, it's pretty much there.
It's just having the politicalwill to execute these things.
Lila Raouf (26:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's all there.
It's just whether or not peoplewant to fund it.
But it's there.
If power holders are maybedesperate enough, maybe they'll
consider other routes.
Dr. Shay (26:44):
So what's next for you after your program?
Lila Raouf (26:48):
Good question.
I have to submit mydissertation in September.
So I'm done with class now.
And now I'm just in the writingprocess.
I've done my data collection.
So I'm analyzing and puttingeverything together.
And then I'm going to decidenext steps.
I will go home in the fall tovisit my family because I
haven't been home in a while.
And then from there, I amconsidering some like education
(27:14):
and emergency consultancies.
But the ultimate goal is Iwould like to pursue positions
at United Nations organizations.
I know the timing is toughright now, but I think it's
really important for me tounderstand their perspective and
how they work.
I have a major crush onInternational Organization for
Migration.
Oh,
Dr. Shay (27:33):
yes.
I visited their office inGreece when I was there.
I
Lila Raouf (27:38):
might look into positions that deal with
education and emergencysituations in Egypt.
It would be a nice way tofollow up on my research.
Dr. Shay (27:47):
Well, Where can everybody else follow you and
your work?
Oh my gosh.
Lila Raouf (27:52):
I mean, nowhere.
I'm not set up for this.
I guess LinkedIn.
That's really the only spacewhere I post about my work and
updates to positions and updatesto my research.
And definitely if anyone isinterested in connecting or
learning more about the programthat I'm in or Fulbright as a
funding opportunity, they'remore than welcome to reach out
to me and I'm happy to help.
Dr. Shay (28:14):
Thank you, Lila.
Well, this episode challengedus to let go of assumptions,
embrace complexity, andrecognize that survival, whether
of a project, a partnership, ora society, often depends on how
well we navigate differences.
So whether you're working in aninternational development space
or walking into a diverse teammeeting tomorrow, remember that
(28:35):
cultural competency is not abonus skill.
It's a leadership requirement.
And like any meaningful work,it starts with them.
This conversation also pairspowerfully with our episode on
cultural humility with Dr.
Joel Perez.
While today we explored howcompetency shows up across
global institutional systems,Joel reminded us that humility
isn't weakness.
(28:56):
Again, it's a leadershipstrength.
Together, both conversationsask us to examine not just how
we show up across cultures, buthow willing we are to stay
curious, admit what we don'tknow, and choose connection over
control.
As always, thank you forjoining me today in the
Resolution Room.
I'm grateful you're here doingthis work alongside me.
If this episode spoke to you,I'd love for you to please
(29:19):
share.
And until next time, keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
(00:22):
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
In this episode, I sit downwith international development
(00:43):
and emergency managementprofessional Lila Raouf to
unpack what cultural competencyreally looks like, not just in
theory, but in high stakes, realworld environments.
Lila brings grounded insightinto how culture, language,
history, and power all shape theway we engage across
differences.
Together, we'll explore whycultural humility matters more
(01:03):
than cultural mastery and howthis work is essential not just
abroad, but in our owncommunities and institutions.
Lila, can you introduceyourself?
Tell us about yourinternational experiences and
the current research that you'redoing.
Lila Raouf (01:17):
Sure.
Hi, Shay.
It's so nice to see you aftersuch a long time.
My name is Laila Raouf.
So I have worked in theinternational development,
refugee resettlement, andemergency management space for
the past 10 years.
I started my career with theUnited States Peace Corps as a
(01:39):
youth development and educationvolunteer specialist in Jordan
and Kyrgyzstan.
And then after some years inthe development space, I got
experience with refugeeeducation and refugee
resettlement in the UnitedStates and then transitioned to
emergency management where Iworked for the Federal Emergency
Management Agency for a fewyears out of Washington, D.C.
(02:01):
Last year, I left my positionbecause I was awarded a
Fulbright Fellowship to theUnited Kingdom.
So I'm now at UniversityCollege London.
I study at the Institute ofEducation and I'm pursuing a
master's degree in education andand international development,
conflict, emergencies, andpeace.
It's a long name, butessentially it is focused on
(02:23):
education in conflict andemergency settings.
So I hope to specialize in massdisplacement and forced
displacement context.
So my current research isfocused on the influx of
Sudanese refugees into Egyptsince the resurgence of conflict
in April 2023.
And I'm studying Sudaneserefugee-led education
(02:46):
initiatives.
So I'm really kind of focusedon how Refugees Respond in
Education Emergencies.
Either before or while GlobalNorth humanitarian actors set up
education interventions.
So a lot of my research isfocused on refugee agency, how
they perceive education andeducation during these emergency
(03:07):
situations.
And I'm looking foropportunities for collaboration
between all these differentstakeholders who work in these
complex environments.
So your topic about culturalcompetency is really interesting
to me.
And I guess when I wasreflecting on it, I guess I do
use a lot of these skills in myresearch and in my past
positions.
Dr. Shay (03:25):
Yeah, without even thinking about it, you are the
expert in this.
And might I say, I think I wantto be you when I grow up.
Lila Raouf (03:35):
I think you're just as cool as me.
I mean, you have your PhD.
You're like a real researcher.
I'm just a baby.
I'm just getting started.
Okay.
Dr. Shay (03:42):
Well, I'm rooting for you, and it's been so amazing to
see all that you've done sinceyour time at the Peace Corps
when we first met.
So you've worked in vastlydifferent cultural, political,
and humanitarian environments.
So when you hear the termcultural competency, what does
that mean to you?
Lila Raouf (03:58):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think if you...
have experience in theinternational foreign affairs
arena.
They throw this term around asa soft skill, which I personally
don't agree with.
I think it's a technical, Iwouldn't even say expertise.
It's just maybe a mindset, away about you to have this
(04:20):
cultural competency.
I think if you ask generalinternational development
professionals, they're going todefine it as the ability to
navigate an environment that'sdifferent from you culturally.
And then how you defineculturally, there's so many
definitions of that.
And I would, for the most part,agree with that.
I think the origins of theinternational development field
(04:43):
makes that term a little bitcomplicated and makes you maybe
assume that cultural competencycan only be done in maybe a
country far away from where youare.
It kind of divides people,maybe that we're so different
from each other that we have tolearn these unique skills in
order to be able to worktogether or to work in that
country.
I don't agree with that.
(05:04):
There's so many instances ofcultural competency being used
even within the United States.
So although I agree on abroader level, I think cultural
competency is just the abilityto meet people halfway and to
understand and relate tosomeone, maybe empathize with
someone who is a Right.
How has your understanding of
Dr. Shay (05:38):
cultural competency evolved through your direct
experiences?
Lila Raouf (05:43):
It's so interesting because I'm in my 30s now and I
waited after working for about10 years to go back to doing a
Master's of Arts.
And so now I'm actuallylearning a bunch of the theory
that kind of guides my practiceafter I've been working.
So I'm going to think with allthis theory, I'm answering your
(06:04):
questions because this is allfresh in my brain, but I would
say when I first exiteduniversity and joined the United
States Peace Corps, I had avery surface-level understanding
of the internationaldevelopment field.
I didn't understand the historyof the humanitarian industry,
of the aid industry.
(06:24):
And so I think I had a veryEurocentric, Western, even white
savior understanding ofcultural competency and
development in general.
And it's important to kind oflearn about the history of this
industry in order to dismantlesome of those beliefs that are
still present in the field andin the sector.
So I would say the more directexperience I got, I started
(06:47):
maybe complicating some of thosenotions and in particular
cultural competency.
Like I mentioned after yourfirst question, I used to think
of it as like, oh, this is asoft skill that you put on a
resume.
It's something that has to betrained into you and taught.
It has to be a skill that istransferred.
And I would Yeah.
trained perfectly in a person.
(07:29):
There are a lot of people whohave worked in international
development for decades, and Iwouldn't consider them
culturally competent at all whenit comes to direct experience
or in-person interactions withthem.
So that's just my opinion.
And that's just years and yearsof working in this field in
different positions and havingto interact with a quote
(07:51):
unquote, different than me andthen actually not that different
than me at all.
I think I'm the most differentfrom people within the United
States.
Maybe I practice the mostcultural patience with people
within this sector from theUnited States.
Well, that was a bit of atangent, but it has changed a
lot over the years.
Dr. Shay (08:11):
We're here for the tangent.
One thing I had to learnWhereas everyone who has been a
lot of places or even grew up ina sort of diverse neighborhood
or a city, that doesn'ttranslate to cultural
competency.
Lila Raouf (08:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
So many people spend theirwhole lives traveling, going on
vacation and never interact withpeople that are different than
them and have no interest reallyin getting on someone's level
and understanding people aroundthem.
So I would agree with you.
I don't think that necessarilyyields cultural competency just
because you've lived in a lot ofcountries.
Dr. Shay (08:46):
Exactly.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow your cultural background
both supports and complicatesthe work that you're doing in
the Middle East?
That's a good question. I wouldsay my First big girl experience
in Peace Corps Jordan is a goodexample.
There are lots of examples, butthis was a foundational, really
clear example that demonstratesthis.
(09:08):
So I'm half Egyptian, I'm halfArab, and my family's Muslim,
even though I don't maybepresent the way that Muslims are
stereotypically presented.
So in Jordan, I caused a lot ofconfusion.
People can tell from my nameand my hair that I'm Arab and
have Arab roots.
And in some way, it didn't giveme a little bit of privilege.
(09:30):
I think people were a littlebit more comfortable and relaxed
around me.
There was an instantconnection, something we could
quickly have a conversation andconnect about.
There were some maybe differentexpectations for me from other
people working.
So for example, I don't speakArabic perfectly.
And so I was maybe extrascrutinized for that.
And And also when it came downto religion, I don't practice
(09:51):
wearing hijab, for example, andthat was a bit confusing.
So, you know, at first it ischallenging because you're
having to explain your identitya lot to people.
But that's, I guess, part ofthe cultural competency as well.
I'm having to share a lot aboutmyself and in order to learn
about others.
So, yeah, so it did.
(10:12):
And I would say that experiencetaught me a lot.
You know, I like...
lived cultural humility wheremy family is from the Middle
East, but that doesn'tnecessarily mean I know
everything about all countriesin the Middle East.
That's silly of me to make allthese assumptions.
So I was really checked in myassumptions when I went to
Jordan and being questioned somuch and interrogated about all
(10:34):
these different parts of myidentity.
It really makes you realizewhat you don't know you don't
know.
And definitely take thatexperience with me and just try
to stay humble when I'mconnecting with new people.
Yeah, yeah.
And you hit it just as you'repursuing your master's.
And if you do anything higherthan that, I can tell you right
now, all you're going to walkaway with is knowing that you
(10:55):
don't know anything.
Lila Raouf (10:57):
Yeah, I would say Each new experience I get, and I
try to have a diverse range ofexperiences.
So I know that I am throwingmyself into, you know, very
different situations with eachnew job, but definitely my
master's, I'm just realizingthat I don't know anything.
And I think that's a good,honestly, a good mindset to have
because I'm like open tolearning.
Like I don't have much, I trynot to have much of an ego about
(11:20):
it.
Dr. Shay (11:21):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So speaking of being open, andI'm glad you shifted into the
humility aspect of this.
You've been so many places andso many, not opposing cultures,
but cultures that are clearlydifferent from one another,
right?
So how do you balancepreparation with openness to
being either wrong or surprisedas you go from country to
(11:42):
country?
Lila Raouf (11:43):
So how you balance preparation, what do you mean by
preparation exactly?
Dr. Shay (11:48):
So I'm assuming for you, you're going into certain
places with very specificreasons for being there.
You might be looking for data.
And I think as a researcher,you can already speak to
research bias and all thesetypes of things that can kind of
cloud your judgment.
So in trying to be prepared forwhat you're there to do, but at
the same time being open to theunexpected, how do you balance
(12:10):
those two?
Lila Raouf (12:11):
Yeah, that's a...
That's a very good question.
I would say in my research,which is very fresh, I just
returned from doing my datacollection for my master's.
I was in Egypt interviewingSudanese refugees and
organizations.
So this was a good example ofwhere I had some expectations.
(12:31):
There were I think even goinginto that, I was expecting to be
surprised.
I was expecting maybe need torework my question a bit.
I was expecting maybe a littlepushback or maybe people not to
understand what I'm researching.
I don't know if I have a veryclear answer for it, but I do
(12:55):
think it's a little bit ofhumility.
Maybe I'm a little shy, so Ijust naturally don't think I...
know everything there is toknow in a situation, which I
think helps with research.
And then I also, with research,I mean, I'm very vocal in my
program because I have, I workedin international development,
but I also worked in ICD and Iprocess development in the
(13:19):
international development space.
So I'm pretty comfortabletalking about intersectionality
and all these different ways toanalyze and reflect on your
identity, the very multiplefacets of your identity.
And so I think that helps me aswell, because whenever I have a
conversation with someone, if Ifeel myself having emotional
reaction, or maybe I'm doubtingthem, or I'm not believing what
(13:41):
they say, I always try to referback to the intersectionality,
that pinwheel of all thedifferent facets of your
identity and see maybe what'sfiring in me and what I need to
maybe reflect on a little bit tosee if that's causing any type
of Girl, that is the key toeverything.
Dr. Shay (14:13):
That and reflection, self-awareness and
self-reflection.
And I actually want to go backto something you mentioned
earlier.
So when you were talking aboutyour experience, especially in
Jordan, but the Middle East andyou having Middle Eastern
descent as well, why do youthink it's critical to approach
communities with curiosityrather than assumption, even
when you share a background?
Lila Raouf (14:35):
Yeah, I mean...
Thank you so much for havingme.
It's, I think, different whenyou have family that's
(14:58):
constantly challenging you andyour beliefs.
So you're constantly having tobe open to learning and
analyzing and code switching,like I was talking about.
So even on the individualfamily level, I think I've had
to be more attuned to nuancesand diversity, even within a
really specific context, like myfamily unit, for example.
(15:20):
My parents are from differentreligions.
They're from different racial,ethnic backgrounds.
I'm constantly trying toobserve or just understand
what's going on in differencesand communication.
I mean, that happens on thevery basic level.
So if that's happening in justmy family, you can imagine in a
country, in a region.
(15:40):
There's way more diversity thanyou can ever imagine.
I mean, honestly, I think PeaceCorps was a good experience for
that because even though weweren't there that long and I
did serve in Kyrgyzstan after, Ileft that experience knowing
that even though I was there fortwo years and I lived in a
rural village in Kyrgyzstan fora very long time, I only knew
(16:00):
maybe 2%.
I knew the very surface of thatsociety and that culture.
That was just the tip of theiceberg.
So I think...
Even when I'm going into newwork situations, I kind of have
that humility about me that I'monly going to get to know a
small percentage.
The very surface of this isgoing to take much longer for me
(16:21):
to understand the root causesand whatnot.
So, yeah.
Dr. Shay (16:27):
And...
We talked about this a littlebit earlier too, but we can
build on this.
So we often think of culturalcompetency as something you need
abroad, quote unquote, andespecially with the current
political climate in the U.S.
and all these things going on,arguably now more than ever.
What are some of the risks oflacking the skill here in the
(16:48):
U.S.?
?
And I will just add that Iunderstand stuff like this,
cultural competency, humility,empathy, compassion are becoming
like these little buzzwordsthat everybody is tired of
hearing, but they are tangiblethings that just as human
beings, you would hope peopleare just practicing naturally.
Lila Raouf (17:03):
Yeah, I think I do have like a strong opinion or
answer to this question.
I think in the context of theU.S., The lack of cultural
competency is risking socialcohesion and peace building.
For my emergency managers outthere, you can think of cultural
competency as a mitigationtool.
It's going to yield benefitsincrease social cohesion and
(17:25):
decrease potential for risk.
I mean, there's many problemsgoing on.
It just doesn't come down tobeing empathetic with others.
Cultural competency also can beat a systemic level.
And removing culturalcompetency from the systemic
level, like we're seeing in theUnited States, has real
consequences.
Awesome.
and symptoms.
(17:45):
But yeah, I think culturalcompetency is a pathway forward
for social cohesion.
And so it should be takenseriously.
I know you are focused onconflict resolution.
I mean, it's kind of the base.
If you walk into a situationwhere you have no awareness
about the other party, and youhave no interest in
understanding the other party,then you're not going to get
(18:10):
anywhere.
Like, it's not even, nobodylikes to be spoken to, you know,
with someone who has likeassumptions about you.
So yeah.
Understanding
Dr. Shay (18:21):
is the bridge to almost just about every
conflict.
Everybody just wants thatdignity, that understanding that
that's what builds commonground.
Lila Raouf (18:29):
Yeah.
And I think maybe if we'regoing to try to like attach a
metaphor to it, I remember welearned this in our pre-service
training and I've stuck withthis my whole life.
It's like, I should not expectto go 50-50 to meet someone
halfway on that bridge.
I need to expect to go 80 andhave that person go 20% if we
want to go anywhere.
So you should just prepare.
(18:50):
Can you imagine if everybodywas doing that?
If everybody was going theextra mile to understand someone
on the other side of the tableas them?
Wait,
Dr. Shay (18:58):
first of all, I don't remember that.
Lila Raouf (19:00):
I remember it.
It really stuck with me becauseit was a lesson about humility
and it was a lesson about You'recoming from XYZ background.
You have more capacity to gofurther, to lean in more, to
give more empathy than the otherparties.
So you should.
And it was, I think, a verygood lesson.
And I think it was consideringlike the circumstances we were
(19:23):
in and like majority like whiteprivilege cohort of volunteers
going to Middle East.
Like I thought that was a goodway to phrase it.
And so I do think culturalcompetency isn't necessarily
meeting halfway.
It's like taking the extrasteps to really understand
someone, maybe 80, 90% acrossthe bridge from them.
I
Dr. Shay (19:41):
love that.
Okay, now I'm going to use thatnow that I have been refreshed.
So what's one lesson youlearned about human connection
across cultures that you carryinto every space you enter,
minus the bridge you just toldme about?
Lila Raouf (19:57):
Yeah, this is a big question.
I think the more I interactwith other cultures in different
parts of the world, the more Irealize that Americans are the
ones that are different.
And the rest of the world iskind of more on the same page
with each other.
Once you leave the UnitedStates, between other countries,
there are less culturaldifferences.
(20:19):
There's more opportunities forsimilarity and connection than
other countries and the UnitedStates.
And I have some thoughts aboutwhy that is, but no, that's not
the point of this podcast.
But my point is that I actuallythink people are way more
similar in terms of their valuesthan they are different.
(20:40):
Sometimes those values manifestdifferently and then people get
distracted by how it looks onthe surface level.
But deep down, the value, forthe most part, is the same
everywhere.
Not the same, but quitesimilar.
There are many, many, manypoints for connection around the
world.
So it's just whether or notyou're willing to be distracted
(21:02):
by that surface or maybe go alittle bit deeper and understand
what's going on there in orderto try to find a way to connect
with someone.
And I do think, yeah, I justthink Americans are kind of the
weird ones.
Like we're the ones who are alittle weird, like to the rest
of the world.
And so we need to do the workRight,
Dr. Shay (21:21):
right.
Doing the work.
Testing
Lila Raouf (21:23):
our humility.
Yeah, we need to be humble andrealize that really the world
does not revolve around the waywe do it in the United States.
There are so many ways to doand operate and be around the
world.
And maybe there's something tolearn from other people.
Dr. Shay (21:39):
Yeah, I think that's such an important point.
Because again, I think I kindof mentioned this earlier.
I think there's a misconceptionsometimes that people from the
United States have that the factthat you're from a
multicultural, diverse countrymeans that you're culturally
competent.
And those are two differentthings.
And if you never step outsideof your city, your town, your
(22:03):
state, your country, it's anentire world and we're one
little tiny part of it.
And our culture has built us upto believe that we're the
center of it.
Right.
Yeah.
And
Lila Raouf (22:15):
I mean, in a way, that's like kind of what my
current research is trying tocomplicate or interrogate a bit.
It's like why I'm looking atthese like Western centric,
Eurocentric ideas about qualityeducation and education during
emergency settings and stuff.
I'm wondering if there's otherways of knowing, if there's
(22:36):
other ways of addressingeducation during emergency
situations.
And I'm looking to refugees asagents who can decide their
futures rather than justbeneficiaries of aid that's
mainly coming from a fewcountries from the West.
So, yeah, I would agree withyou.
And I'm constantly kind of likelooking at different ways.
(22:58):
post-colonial and decolonialtheories to try to understand
these really complicatedproblems around the world and
see if maybe we're just notstubborn, but we've just been
made to believe that there isonly one right way of doing
things when there are many waysof doing and knowing and
learning and educating andthings like that.
Dr. Shay (23:22):
That pre-exists our own country.
I think we forget too, Americais a very young country.
So young.
Lila Raouf (23:28):
Yes, so young.
This is what I'm always readingand learning.
The more I read and learn, themore angrier I get and the more
disillusioned I get.
And then I feel more optimisticbecause I'm learning and
getting slowly
Dr. Shay (23:41):
better at it.
That's a cycle.
You're going to get frustrated,then relieved, and then all
over again.
And then
Lila Raouf (23:46):
energized and then tired.
Yeah, I'm going through all ofthat now.
Dr. Shay (23:50):
Yep.
Well, let's keep on that noteof optimism.
So what gives you hope about...
where we're headed, especiallyin international education and
humanitarian work?
Lila Raouf (24:02):
I mean, it's a tough time right now for humanitarian
work for a lot of differentreasons.
I think my research is a bittimely because the aid cuts and
the shift of many countriestowards more nationalist or
isolationist foreign policypolicies issues or perspectives
(24:25):
is going to force us to look atalternative ways of supporting
others.
So there is in the policy worldkind of push towards more
localization.
and more integration ofparticipants into research and
into solutions into theseproblems.
And so I know I'm justscratching the surface of that
by looking at refugeeperspectives to education
(24:48):
emergencies.
But there is a lot of researchout there around, for example,
refugee teachers into theemergency response planning and
things like that.
There's loads of research outthere.
And it's just surprising thatI'm just now learning about it
after working in the field for10 years.
It's not surprising.
It's calculated.
But now that I'm learning allof this, I do think there is a
(25:10):
way forward.
It's just whether or not we canchange enough minds and
mobilize enough people toconsider alternate routes.
And it would require shiftingpower, some people giving up
power and redistributing powerand resources in order to move
forward.
But I do think, same within theUnited States, maybe you have
(25:30):
to hit rock bottom to consideralternate solutions.
And so the aid cuts in thehumanitarian field because of
the US government, there mightbe possibilities or people are
willing to gamble on othergrassroots, more alternate
initiatives and maybe considerthe complete restructures of the
(25:51):
way humanitarian aid andinternational education
operates.
That's me being reallyidealistic, but I will say that
The research is there andpathways are there.
It's just whether or not thosegreater forces want to use that
information moving forward.
So yeah, I would say right nowin terms of the cycle, I'm a
(26:11):
little bit more optimisticbecause I'm like realizing
there's alternate ways ofeducation.
And
Dr. Shay (26:18):
like you said, the more that you're learning this
stuff, one thing that's going toblow your mind is As you
mentioned, a lot of theseframeworks already exist.
Do you think you're coming upwith something brand new?
No, it's pretty much there.
It's just having the politicalwill to execute these things.
Lila Raouf (26:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's all there.
It's just whether or not peoplewant to fund it.
But it's there.
If power holders are maybedesperate enough, maybe they'll
consider other routes.
Dr. Shay (26:44):
So what's next for you after your program?
Lila Raouf (26:48):
Good question.
I have to submit mydissertation in September.
So I'm done with class now.
And now I'm just in the writingprocess.
I've done my data collection.
So I'm analyzing and puttingeverything together.
And then I'm going to decidenext steps.
I will go home in the fall tovisit my family because I
haven't been home in a while.
And then from there, I amconsidering some like education
(27:14):
and emergency consultancies.
But the ultimate goal is Iwould like to pursue positions
at United Nations organizations.
I know the timing is toughright now, but I think it's
really important for me tounderstand their perspective and
how they work.
I have a major crush onInternational Organization for
Migration.
Oh,
Dr. Shay (27:33):
yes.
I visited their office inGreece when I was there.
I
Lila Raouf (27:38):
might look into positions that deal with
education and emergencysituations in Egypt.
It would be a nice way tofollow up on my research.
Dr. Shay (27:47):
Well, Where can everybody else follow you and
your work?
Oh my gosh.
Lila Raouf (27:52):
I mean, nowhere.
I'm not set up for this.
I guess LinkedIn.
That's really the only spacewhere I post about my work and
updates to positions and updatesto my research.
And definitely if anyone isinterested in connecting or
learning more about the programthat I'm in or Fulbright as a
funding opportunity, they'remore than welcome to reach out
to me and I'm happy to help.
Dr. Shay (28:14):
Thank you, Lila.
Well, this episode challengedus to let go of assumptions,
embrace complexity, andrecognize that survival, whether
of a project, a partnership, ora society, often depends on how
well we navigate differences.
So whether you're working in aninternational development space
or walking into a diverse teammeeting tomorrow, remember that
(28:35):
cultural competency is not abonus skill.
It's a leadership requirement.
And like any meaningful work,it starts with them.
This conversation also pairspowerfully with our episode on
cultural humility with Dr.
Joel Perez.
While today we explored howcompetency shows up across
global institutional systems,Joel reminded us that humility
isn't weakness.
(28:56):
Again, it's a leadershipstrength.
Together, both conversationsask us to examine not just how
we show up across cultures, buthow willing we are to stay
curious, admit what we don'tknow, and choose connection over
control.
As always, thank you forjoining me today in the
Resolution Room.
I'm grateful you're here doingthis work alongside me.
If this episode spoke to you,I'd love for you to please
(29:19):
share.
And until next time, keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.