September 3, 2025 • 44 mins
Summary
In this conversation, Dr. Nashay Lowe and Dr. Joel Pérez explore the concept of cultural humility in leadership, emphasizing the importance of asking the right questions and fostering genuine connections. They discuss the challenges leaders face in practicing humility, the significance of understanding microaggressions, and the need for open dialogue in diverse environments. Through personal anecdotes and practical examples, they highlight how humility and empathy can lead to more effective leadership and healthier relationships across various contexts. In this conversation, Dr. Joel Pérez discusses the importance of creating safe spaces for feedback, leading with empathy, and understanding the principles of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). He emphasizes the need for self-awareness and cultural humility in leadership, and the significance of genuine efforts towards organizational change. The discussion highlights that real change requires a commitment to listening and understanding the experiences of others, and that leadership is about fostering connection and growth rather than merely performance.
Key Takeaways
- Leadership is about asking the right questions, not just having answers.
- Cultural humility involves recognizing and addressing power imbalances.
- Empathy is essential for effective leadership, not a sign of weakness.
- Microaggressions can occur unintentionally but have significant impacts.
- Creating a safe space for feedback is crucial for growth.
- Diversity, equity, and inclusion must be practiced, not just checked off.
- Self-awareness and curiosity are foundational to cultural humility.
- Real change requires intentionality and a framework for action.
- Listening deeply is a key skill for leaders.
- Hope lies in the genuine desire for improvement among leaders.
This episode may include brief sponsor messages that help support the show. For an ad-free listening experience, consider subscribing to The Resolution Room.
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2471266/subscribe
Please also Follow, Share, Rate, and Review us on your favorite platform! 🫶🏾
https://ratethispodcast.com/resolutionroom
To bring a conversation like this to your stage, please visit https://forms.gle/XineBr3err9W1HD49
Want to talk with me 1:1? Visit: intro.co/NashayLowe
Shop at The Mind Shop and explore our collection designed to carry the spirit of The Resolution Room into everyday life.
https://lowe-insights-mind-shop.fourthwall.com/
And if you just want to say thank you in a simple way, you can always buy me a coffee—every gesture helps keep this space going.
https://buymeacoffee.com/resolutionroom
Theme music credit:
https://uppbeat.io/t/aavirall/soft-waves-forming
License code: YHLX3CWSWGWNCJZT
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
intro music
Dr. Shay (00:19):
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
We often think leadership isabout having the answers, but
(00:45):
what if it's more about askingthe right questions?
In this episode, I'm joined byexecutive coach and DEI
strategist, Dr.
Pérez, to talk about whatcultural humility really looks
like in practice, not just forexecutives, but for anyone
navigating relationships acrosslines of identity, power, or
experience.
From family dynamics toworkplace leadership, this
(01:06):
conversation explores how egoand tension and fear of getting
it wrong can hold us back andhow letting go of being the
expert can actually bring uscloser to real connection,
equity, and lasting change.
Joel, can you please introduceyourself?
Dr. Pérez (01:22):
Thank you for having me on the podcast.
My name is Joel Pérez, and I'man executive and leadership
coach.
And I wrote a book called DearWhite Leader, How to Achieve
Organizational ExcellenceThrough Cultural Humility,
mainly because of the work I wasdoing with my clients who
identify as white, who aretrying to navigate how do I lead
(01:42):
diverse teams, particularly ata time when organizations were
in volatile spaces because ofthe murder of George Floyd,
wanting to become moreinclusive.
And in that process, Irealized, I think I have a book
here.
And so that led to the projectof writing a book.
I'm based in Los Angeles.
I have four biracial children,ages 13 to 21.
(02:05):
They all live at home.
And my spouse and I have beenmarried almost 29 years.
And she and I met in college.
And yeah, and so my backgroundis higher education.
I've worked in higher educationover 20 years.
And then in 2019, left highereducation and started my
(02:26):
coaching and consultingpractice.
Dr. Shay (02:28):
Amazing.
And again, thank you for beinghere.
So let's start here.
We live in a culture thatteaches us to perform
confidence, but you help leaderspractice humility.
So why do you think humilityfeels so hard for people in
power.
Dr. Pérez (02:44):
That's a good question.
So I think three years ago, Idid a LinkedIn poll.
It wasn't a validated study oranything like that.
But I put a poll like, do youall, do you, my network, do you
(03:04):
believe that humility is acentral aspect to leadership?
And most people said yes.
One person said no.
And the one person said nobecause they feel like at times
humility can get in the way ofhaving to make hard decisions.
Okay.
(03:25):
And that it was a sign ofweakness.
And so now the people that saidyes, I didn't dig further,
right?
There was no qualitativefollow-up.
I'm guessing...
Well, as a follow-up I did, doyou all believe that cultural
humility is an important aspectof leadership?
And I got more no's during thattime, again, because of this
(03:51):
idea that the term humility,although it's something we all
aspire to when it comes toleadership, there's this belief
that it can limit you in makingthe hard decisions and or impact
the Right.
That empathy is not good forleaders to have because
(04:42):
empathetic leaders can't makehard decisions.
And again, I don't believethat.
I think empathy is a verystrong piece or a characteristic
of exceptional leadership.
But clearly there is a beliefby some that empathy and
humility are actually obstaclesto becoming a strong leader.
Dr. Shay (05:07):
Yes.
And actually, let's back up fora second.
And can you define what we'retalking about when we say
humility and cultural
Dr. Pérez (05:16):
humility?
is taking that further,particularly when it comes to
(05:41):
working with people that havedifferent salient identities
than yourself and recognizingthat there are stories that
other people have that need tobe listened to, particularly
around their identities, thatshould influence the way you
(06:01):
lead, particularly those thatare in your sphere of influence,
whether that isorganizationally, family, faith,
community, volunteerorganization.
And so the way culturalhumility is defined is there's
three characteristics,self-awareness and
self-critique.
(06:21):
Redressing power imbalances.
And that's where the differenceis.
Culture humility is you as youbegin to listen to others, you
recognize that things may needto change so that others can be
successful in organizations thatwhether it's retention, whether
(06:43):
it's promotion rates, whetherit's pay equity.
And then as you begin torecognize that there's things
that need to be addressed orredressed, you begin to
recognize that there's a need tochange.
address those power balancesthat ultimately leads to
systemic change.
So cultural humility is notjust about you.
It's about the people you leadand the organization you serve
(07:07):
in.
So it moves beyond just theindividual where I think
humility, in my view, is moreabout personal, where cultural
humility is more aboutorganizationally and or and or
societal.
Dr. Shay (07:25):
Right.
And can you provide like anyexamples of how cultural
humility shows up in everydayconflicts, like whether that be
family disagreements, tense teammeetings or identity based
Dr. Pérez (07:36):
misunderstandings?
Yeah.
So the way I example would beat the dinner table, we have
said there are six of us.
We all live at home.
My kids all have varyingperspectives politically, about
life.
We have hard conversations.
(07:57):
The example I share with you istwo of my kids were having an
argument and it was clearly theywere raising their voice and
they were getting agitated ateach other.
The conversation ended and Isaid, okay, are you all willing
to walk away still loving eachother?
And the answer was yes.
(08:18):
I said, that's good.
That's an aspect of culturalhumility, meaning that even
though you may disagree withsomeone, you're able to walk
away with a better understandingof that person's point of view,
as opposed to feeling like Ishould have convinced them that
I was right and they were wrong.
So it's having this posture ofcuriosity.
(08:39):
So the three things that I tellwhen I do workshops that you
need to develop in order todevelop a posture of cultural
humility are having a growthmindset, developing deep
curiosity and deep listeningbecause you have to be able to
understand where other peopleare coming from so that you can
(09:00):
leave a conversation better it'snot about convincing the other
person that they're wrong orthey're right or that they're
wrong you're right and viceversa the problem is now in
society and because we're in apolarized world is that we don't
have conversations like thatit's about me convincing you by
laying out my talking pointswithout really being curious and
(09:22):
asking questions.
That doesn't mean we're goingto ultimately agree, but I
contend that we would leaveconversations in better places.
And we may change our minds onsome things, but we may not.
But I still love you andrespect you and see you as a
colleague and a friend.
Absolutely.
So that's the piece of theculture of humility that's
(09:43):
really important.
And I think it allows for spacein the middle.
So I think it's important thatwe develop this podcast Because
I think what the other thingthat cultural humility does is
it creates space for people tobe in the middle because they
don't have this fear of beinglabeled by one extreme or the
(10:03):
other extreme, which causespeople to shut down and isolate
themselves and not ask questionsfor fear of being labeled and
misinterpreted, misconstrued.
And that is leading to thepolarization that exists because
people in the middle feel likethey cannot ask questions
(10:25):
because they have a fear ofbeing labeled.
You know, if you're going touse political terms, progressive
or conservative, right?
And that gets in the way ofhaving really deep, meaningful
conversation and dialogue thatneeds to happen.
Dr. Shay (10:41):
And thank you for using the example of like
family, because I think, again,that kind of brought more nuance
to the definition of culture,because I think most people
wouldn't expect there to bemulti culture in the same
Dr. Pérez (10:52):
family yeah yeah and particularly like for me you
know faith is really importantto me and I want to have deep
conversations about of faithwithout fear or creating fear in
other people to share who theytheir beliefs because they if
they share beliefs that aredifferent than mine that they're
(11:13):
going to get ostracized orasked to leave the congregation
and that's and that's wherethat's where Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
strip culture humility, you canenter into conversations with
(11:55):
really being curious and askingopen-ended questions.
So that's important.
And the growth mindset'simportant because we all make
mistakes.
In the book, I share my ownmistakes, but it's what I do
with those mistakes, right?
I could very easily like shutdown after I make mistakes, but
(12:15):
having a growth mindset meanswhat can I do to learn from
this?
So I'm better even in my mid50s or in midlife, mid 50s and
not mid 50s.
I'm going to be close to mid50s.
It doesn't mean that I can'tlearn new things just because
I'm older or I'm a boomer.
I have to have this posture of,I have to have this posture of
(12:37):
being open to learning more sothat I can get better.
Dr. Shay (12:41):
Right.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Okay.
So one thing you brought up, Iwant to revisit was again,
entering conversations, not withthe intent of trying to be
right, but again, trying tobridge understanding.
Right.
And I guess on the other end ofthat, there's some people, many
(13:01):
well-meaning people stay quietbecause they're afraid of
messing up.
So how do we show shift fromfear of failure to curiosity and
tough conversations.
I think that builds on whatyou're talking about with the
growth mindset.
Dr. Pérez (13:13):
Yeah, having a growth mindset, but also feeling
like you can have a, if you, soif I'm coaching someone and I
have coached people who haveexperienced a microaggression or
something that's happened inthe workplace they disagree
with, my first question'salways, one, are you okay with
that?
Generally, it's no, right?
(13:34):
And I said, is this somethingyou want to address?
So if the answer is yes, okay.
What are some things that youbelieve you can do to address
the particular scenario you'vejust described, right?
A boss said something.
And then my next question is,do you feel in your
(13:59):
organization's culture, do youfeel like you can ask a question
or address the area withoutfear of losing your job.
If there is fear that you'regoing to lose your job, then I
will never advise someone thatyou got to go ahead and go
forward.
What I would say is...
Two things, right?
(14:20):
If you feel like theorganizational culture doesn't
allow for that kind ofconversation, then it's a
different conversation in thesense of, is this the right,
does this organization have thevalues that are in alignment
with your values?
Okay, so there's that.
There's a career coachingaspect.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
(14:41):
But for me, I always put thiscaveat, and I do this too, not
(15:08):
only with coaching, but when Ido workshops, safe space does
not mean comfortable, right?
There's going to be somediscomfort because this
conversation can be hard, right?
Now, when I coach leaderswho've perpetrated a
microaggression, then theconversation is that someone
might say, not someone, someonehas said to me, I really messed
(15:31):
up.
I committed a microaggression.
I said, okay.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhy you think you need to
address it.
So I want to make sure it'scoming from a genuine place,
right?
And in their book, Did ThatJust Happen?
It's called Did That JustHappen?
The authors walk through forleaders and organizations how to
(15:53):
recover and address whenmicroaggressions happen.
And what I've learned from thatand have used is the first
thing is you apologize, right?
But you apologize not expectinganything in return.
Okay, so an example, I wasdoing a, I was a keynote speaker
for a virtual event.
(16:14):
I used an example, I talkedabout nostalgia and the problems
that sometimes nostalgia cancreate in moving forward because
we want everything to go backto the way it was, right?
And the example I used did notland well with a particular
person.
So they gave me some feedbackThank you.
(16:36):
I was like, oh, all right, howdo I do this?
Practice what I preach.
So I sent them an email.
I said, first of all, I am sosorry that this happened.
I do not expect you to reply tome, but if you are open to
having a conversation so I canlearn exactly how it landed, why
(16:57):
it landed the way it is, I'mopen to that.
But I don't expect you torespond to this email.
If you choose not to respond,great.
Have a great rest of your Ifyou do, here's how we can meet
and connect.
Right.
I tried not to make it about megetting defensive, which a lot
of people do.
Right.
Like, oh, I'm so sorry.
That's not what I meant.
Or you misconstrued somethingthat I said.
(17:20):
And that is not good.
Particularly with people from,I'm not using the term
underestimated groups.
People from underestimatedgroups, we, people, when we
experience a micro, I identifyas a When I experience a
microaggression and the personon the other end is apologizing,
(17:42):
sometimes it becomes more aboutthem and how, you know, or
like, well, tell me what I needto do better.
Well, are you asking me to helpyou?
And I may not feel comfortablehelping you, but I don't have
permission to just say no.
So if you're perpetrating it toget people permission, like
here's one, I'm sorry.
(18:03):
I really do want to get better.
Are you open to help me getbetter?
And if you're not, that's okay.
And just walk away.
But we have a hard time doingthat because we want to fix it
right away, right?
Dr. Shay (18:20):
Right.
And you want the validationfrom the other person that they
accept your apology.
Dr. Pérez (18:27):
Yeah.
So the example I gave issomething that I did as a
speaker that I knew that Ineeded to model.
Let's say I offended someoneand I needed to apologize.
And then as I've done theseworkshops, we talk about it.
I communicate with people howit is you recover, but also
making it not a about you, butwe're all gonna make mistakes.
(18:48):
Growth mindset.
Curiosity.
learning how to listen deeply,because we all say we're better
listeners than we actually are.
I'm guilty of that.
My guess is you may be guiltyof that.
My spouse reminds me that I'mguilty of that, right?
And so being able to prepare tohave conversations in a way
(19:11):
where I am centered and fullypresent.
Dr. Shay (19:15):
Absolutely.
And actually, can we go back alittle bit, just because I want
to clarify too, can you definewhat we're talking about when we
say microaggressions and youknow I feel like it might be
misconstrued as something justoversensitive people take jokes
too seriously and things likethat so
Dr. Pérez (19:32):
what do we mean well microaggressions when you so an
example would be when I was incollege I was working for
someone who identifies a whitemale and I'll use a pseudonym
we'll say Larry Larry said Larrywas trying to get to know me
and so I said hey you know LarryI'm a son of immigrants Spanish
is my first language He said,wow, you're so articulate.
(19:56):
I had no idea.
I could tell you were son ofimmigrants.
Okay.
So it's when you say somethingthat singles out someone's a
particular aspect of someone,your intent may have been, you
know, you may have intended notto be offensive, but the impact
(20:20):
was clearly felt by that otherperson.
Right.
So one of the examples,particularly my colleagues of
color, who are doctorate youknow doctorate like I have a PhD
and and you have a you know youhave a doctorate and something
that sometimes happens to me islike oh man you're so articulate
like okay so what are youtrying to communicate to me
(20:45):
right let's have a conversationof why that was and that may not
be offensive to everyone rightthere's some things that some
are offensive to others and notnot offensive to you and not
others so it's when you offendsomeone in a way that initially
your intention is to be positivelike to give a compliment but
it's really not a compliment andit's not received as a
(21:08):
compliment right or it's justoutright rude right um and and
it's not like overt racism orovert offensiveness it's the
little bit you know backhandedcomment right and it may not
just be around race it could bearound gender socioeconomic It
(21:28):
could be just around interactingwith family.
So one of the things aboutbeing curious is to remembering
to remember to be curious.
That's important.
So back to your point aroundthe microaggression, that's how
I describe it and define it.
I know there's an actualacademic definition, which I
(21:50):
don't have in front of me, and Idon't have it memorized.
But what I try to help peoplewith is how do you recover from
it?
Dr. Shay (21:57):
Yes.
start that conversation withsomeone who commits one without
(22:31):
also making them defensivebecause they weren't
intentionally trying to be rudehow do you even start that
conversation without blaming andthen second I sort of feel like
When we talk about stuff likethis, my girl, I feel like
everything has become sort oflike kind of taboo to talk about
(22:51):
because it's like, oh, here wego again with the sensitivity
police, blah, blah, blah.
But the reality is we've beendoing a lot of wrong things
socially for a long time andwe're just not kind of speaking
up to what we should have beendoing all along.
So it's kind of like, how do weeven get people to realize just
sort of bad habits we've beendoing for a long time are no
longer publicly okay?
(23:11):
I
Dr. Pérez (23:14):
think there's two aspects to it.
I mean, there's two things Iwould say to your question.
One is, are you one torecognize if you're in a
position of power, if yousupervise people, right?
To you modeling that it's okayfor people to come to you,
(23:34):
right?
Or letting people know that,hey, if I say, and not just say
it, but actually, you know,demonstrate it, right?
So if I ever commit amicroaggression or offend you,
Um, I really want to know aboutthose things because I want to
get better before it happens.
So you as a leader level set,right?
If it's happened to you, areyou, again, back to the safety
(23:58):
piece, are you able to confrontyour boss, your peer, your
colleague, right?
Do you feel like you can dothat?
If you feel like you can do,one is to get ready to have the
conversation.
And it could be as easy, likefor me in the book, I describe a
person who identifies as awhite woman came to me and said,
(24:20):
can I give you some feedback?
And I was like, sure.
I knew it wasn't going to be aquick conversation, even though
for me it was towards the end ofthe day I wanted to get home.
But she shared with me like,hey, do you recognize that you
tend to call on mostly the menin the room?
And you also tend to call onthe people who are more vocal
(24:45):
about their opinions, which forme, there was some bias against
introverts, bias against women,right?
she felt safe enough or I hadcreated a space where she felt
now this person's also very verycourageous and not afraid to
mix it up with you but I hadcreated a space where she didn't
(25:06):
feel like I was going to likeyou know get over it move on
whatever so you as a leader haveto create that space for the
feedback to happen you as theperson who feel you have to feel
like you can but it generallyit's more of like do I feel like
Joel is going to receive it.
Right?
If you feel like someone's notgoing to receive it, but you
(25:27):
still want to say it, then Ithink the approach is...
So I just want you to know,Joel, your comment right now, I
know you may have intended it acertain way, but here's how it
impacted me.
As a person from a minoritizedcommunity, underrepresented
community, underestimatedcommunity, and I want to make
(25:50):
you aware because I don't wantyou to do it again to someone
else.
And here's what you said, andhere's how it impacted me.
Now, hopefully the personreceives it well, but if they
don't, you, the person, have tobe ready for it.
for what may ensue, right?
The defensiveness.
And I know right now with theway we're so polarized and
(26:13):
particularly our currentpolitical environment, there's
probably going to be moretrepidation.
And that fear is real.
And so I want to name it forpeople that it's okay to be
afraid of the conversation, butyou need to determine if it's
something you want to moveforward with and develop a
strategy before you engage.
in that conversation.
Dr. Shay (26:35):
Absolutely.
And I want to go back again tosomething you said earlier.
It was the quote from ElonMusk.
So you work with executiveteams and nonprofits, but your
work isn't just strategic, it'sdeeply relational.
So what does it really meanthen to lead with empathy?
Dr. Pérez (26:53):
Yeah, that's good.
One is, so I also coach peoplewho don't consider themselves
very empathetic.
So what it looks like isAcknowledging people's feelings
and hurt.
blog post not too long ago onthe power of proximity, meaning
(27:39):
sometimes people just want youto be present.
They don't want you to solvetheir problems.
And this is an extreme example,right?
Someone comes in crying andthere's clearly something has
happened.
To just ask, do you want totalk about it or do you just
want me to sit here and listen?
So that's one piece.
(27:59):
To lead with empathy means I amlearning to listen to people's
stories and their livedexperiences in a way that
seeking to understand andrecognizing that we bring
whatever's happening in ourworld into the workplace, if
(28:20):
it's a work situation.
If it's with your spouse oryour partner, it's looking at
them directly and just wentagain.
So like, I'm so sorry this ishappening.
So the other example I'll shareis I had a friend, I have a
friend that I had, he's still afriend, who his son developed a
(28:42):
really just, well, his sonpassed away at a very, very
young age.
Like, I think they were two orthree.
Yeah.
contracted genetically had thisdisease that was just i mean it
was really it just wrecked himright because he was watching
his child deteriorate mentallybefore his eyes it hurt right it
(29:08):
was hurting me clearly becauseit was hurting him i was living
in oregon at the time I said,hey, give him a pseudonym.
Hey, Victor, are you okay if Ijust fly down and be with you?
(29:28):
I just want to sit with you.
I'm not asking for anything inreturn.
I just want to be with you.
That is leading with empathy,right?
And hearing people,particularly people like are
having problems with decisionsor the direction the
(29:51):
organization is going isacknowledging that there's some
pain, right?
You're restructuring theorganization.
You're letting people go Youcan still be empathetic.
Empathy does not mean weaknessor you don't hold people
accountable, but you truly, youhave a posture of listening
where you are absorbing what'shappening and just acknowledging
(30:14):
that there's hurt, not justacknowledging.
When acknowledging that there'shurt, it's like, okay, what can
we do to get better?
So we treat you with dignityand we help people just feel
like we're, we feel like humansand not just Exactly,
Dr. Shay (30:33):
exactly.
And those two things, thatpersonal and professional,
(31:03):
should be separated.
What do you say to those
Dr. Pérez (31:06):
people?
Well, I think we're beyond thepoint where people are now being
impacted outside of work thatit's not coming into the
workplace.
So one, that's the reality.
And given the generations thatare coming into the workplace,
they want to be themselves andbe truly authentic to
themselves.
So if you want to retain thosepeople, you have to learn to
(31:31):
listen with empathy.
and be okay.
I mean, you can create someboundaries and parameters.
I think that's fair, right?
I believe that's fair to do.
But you can still do it in away that acknowledges people's,
affirms their identities andtheir experiences that they're
bringing into the workplace.
(31:51):
The other piece I would say iswhat is the organization doing
to prepare leaders?
Yeah, you're not therapists.
So if a therapy situation comesup how do you feel support as a
leader from your organizationto be able to say clearly
there's some things going on andI want we want to provide some
(32:14):
resources for you as anorganization and Also, I've been
trained on what to say and helpyou so that if clearly there's
some therapeutic stuff thatneeds to happen, and people know
that I can say, thank you forsharing, what support do you
(32:36):
need in order to get the helpyou need?
Because I cannot provide youwith counseling and therapy.
So what's the organizationdoing to train people?
to be a resources for people.
Dr. Shay (32:52):
Yeah.
Training people to be resourcesfor people.
I like that.
So, you know, in highexperiences and some of my work
too, that can be a bitfrustrating as someone who
deeply cares about a lot ofthese issues.
And we're talking about DEInow.
And actually, before we evenjump in there, can you define
what we're meaning by DEI whenwe say this?
(33:14):
I want to define everything.
Dr. Pérez (33:15):
Yeah.
So DEI to me means diversity,equity, and inclusion, right?
So diversity to me is for me,the aesthetic piece.
We want people that lookdifferent, have different
cultural backgrounds.
The equity piece for me is whatare we doing to create an
(33:36):
equitable organization?
The example I generally shareis pay equity, right?
That men get paid more thanwomen.
And if we want there to beequity, we need to start
leveling the playing field.
or redressing the powerimbalance that may exist.
(33:57):
And some organizations aredoing this.
The inclusion is, are wecreating space for people with
different perspectives thatbring different perspectives to
come together and not only feel,but truly create an
organization where they feelincluded at the table?
(34:18):
So diversity is, I would say,Historically, what a lot of
organizations were doing, right?
It's more checking the boxes.
We have so much percentage.
Still important.
Representation is important,but it's more than just
representation.
It's how are we creatingorganizations that are inclusive
and then also equitable so thatwe can be the best organization
(34:43):
we can be.
Dr. Shay (34:45):
Yeah.
And that hits the nail on thehead on my next question,
because DEI isn't just a box tocheck, right?
It's a practice.
It's a continuous effort.
And given our politicalclimate, I think there's a lot
of institutions that are makingeffort, but I know that people
(35:08):
who work for them might disclaimthat they feel more
performative than sincere.
So how do you help clients movefrom theoretical application to
real change?
Dr. Pérez (35:20):
So I always stress the importance of having a
framework.
If you're going to truly createchange in an organization, a
framework to guide your efforts,because you can't just take a,
let's throw a up on the wall andsee what sticks.
It has to be intentionalbecause you want to embed the
change into the organization soit becomes part of the ethos of
(35:44):
the organization.
And that's where the heavylifting needs to happen.
But the way you do that is youstart with gathering data,
right?
Because I believe data isimportant because it shows us
where our gaps exist and But Ialso believe that you have to
(36:04):
anchor your work in mission,vision, and values.
Now, I know some organizationsare changing their mission,
vision, and values because ofpressure.
But I believe if you're trulygoing to remain true to your
values as an organization andyou say you value diversity,
equity, inclusion, or inclusion,then you need to own it.
(36:26):
But you can't just say it.
You have to...
identify is it actuallyhappening and that's where the
pulling the data and then onceyou see where you are from a
baseline perspective and thenokay we want to get better how
do we get better and thenthere's that framework that's
really helpful in guiding you asopposed to you can't just hire
(36:48):
someone you can't just start aprogram which a lot of
organizations have done right inresponse that hasn't led to
change it's been performativeright that doesn't mean that
perform it that you don't needto be That doesn't mean you
don't need to perform, but itmeans it's one thing to say and
just do it, but are youmeasuring the impact in a way
(37:12):
that's going to continuallyallow you to assess progress?
And not very many organizationsdo that.
Dr. Shay (37:20):
Yeah.
And so what are some finds thatan organization is ready for
real change?
Dr. Pérez (37:27):
One, they have the conversation with multiple
people in the room, right?
People high up in theorganization so they can
demonstrate that this isimportant.
Yes, that's performative.
But with that posture oflistening and then, okay, we got
to make changes and we're goingto put...
(37:48):
We're going to allocate theresources in order for the
change to happen.
Human, fiscal, time, becauseit's going to take work.
And then making sure thatyou're making progress or
collecting data baseline, butthen also to show you're making
(38:09):
progress.
And there's four areas that Italk about in the framework that
I...
One is...
Organizational climate andintergroup relations.
How are people experiencingeach other?
The other is what are you doingor vitality and viability?
So what are you doing tosustain your work over time?
(38:31):
training and development?
So how are you buildingcapacity for your leaders to
lead cross-culturally,cross-generationally?
And then what are you doing inrecruitment and retention?
That's not just about hiringpeople.
It's how you, are you retainingthem and are they moving
(38:54):
through the organization at therate you want them to move?
So that's how I work withorganizations is once you, so
for me, organizations that'sserious that isn't just being
performative it's actuallyhaving a plan and then following
through on the plan right andthen letting people know being
(39:14):
public about hey we're doingthis work we're doing okay over
here but we're not doing sogreat over here and we need to
figure out why
Dr. Shay (39:26):
so zooming out a little bit what's one tangible
practice that any anyone,regardless of their title, can
begin today to lead with moreculture of humility.
Dr. Pérez (39:41):
Starts with self-awareness.
And there are three things thatI help leaders work through.
One is identifying the biasesthat you as a leader have, and
then talking about how do youmitigate the impact of those
biases.
Getting clear on your salientidentities, even as a white
(40:03):
heterosexual man, that is youridentity.
Because then you can mayberecognize that there's some
things that I'm doing that Idon't know that I'm doing
because I don't have to worryabout it, right?
Or whatever the identity is,you need to get clear on your
salient identities or what Icall cultural self-awareness.
(40:25):
And the other is otherawareness, right?
Learning more about the peoplethat are in your organization or
the people you lead so that youcan understand their stories,
but letting them know that yougenuinely are curious, that
you're not just checking a box.
And you can't just go aroundasking people their identity.
(40:48):
The example I give in the bookand that I share is I was
working with a person identifiedas a white woman who wanted to
get to know her team.
Right.
Right.
Cultural self-awareness andother awareness.
(41:22):
And that's where leaders needto start.
And growth mindset, developingdeep curiosity, and developing
the ability to deeply listen.
Dr. Shay (41:35):
So in this work, it's easy to focus on what's broken,
right?
What gives you hope about howpeople are showing up
differently?
Yeah.
Dr. Pérez (41:46):
Oh, that's a good question.
Well, I just innately, I'm aglass half full kind of guy.
What gives me hope is that whenI have conversations,
one-on-one conversations withpeople, I can hear that there's
a genuineness.
(42:06):
of people wanting to get betterat this because they recognize
that they need to get better,but I've created a space for
them to acknowledge that theyneed to get better.
So that's what gives me hopeand keeps me going.
And that's my why is I wantpeople to get better at this,
but my why is also, I need toget better at it too, because I
(42:29):
need to model it.
All right.
Yeah.
And that's hard.
Right.
But, but it starts with you.
That's why I always say itstarts with you, but it doesn't,
end with you
Dr. Shay (42:39):
absolutely so yeah well thank you so much for
speaking with me today um canyou let everyone know where to
follow you and your work
Dr. Pérez (42:48):
yeah so i am on linkedin um i would encourage
people you can download thefirst chapter of my book if you
go to dear white leader.com andthe first chapter is made
available so if you want to readit and kind of go hey this is
really interesting uh and thenwhich may lead to you buying the
book but um so but for mefollowing linkedin is where I
(43:10):
live, where I interact withpeople.
And then the website isdearwhiteleader.com.
Dr. Shay (43:17):
Thank you.
So in this episode, Dr.
Paredes helped us rethink whatit means to lead well, not with
ego or fear, but with thecourage to stay curious.
We explored how humility isn'tweakness.
It's a powerful tool forconnection, repair, and
transformation.
Whether we're navigatingidentity-based tension, tough
conversations, or internal orour own internal biases.
(43:40):
As we were reminded, the goalisn't to avoid mistakes.
It's to stay in the room whenthey happen.
Real change starts when we'rewilling to trade certainty for
growth and perfectionism forpresence.
If you've ever felt pressuredto have the right words or
worried about saying the wrongthing, this episode is a gentle
nudge towards something better.
(44:00):
Honesty, listening, and thekind of leadership that centers
people over performance.
As always, thank you forjoining me in the resolution
room.
If this conversation moved you,challenged you, or gave you
something to carry forward,consider supporting the show.
You can explore our wearablewisdom collection in our mind
(44:24):
shop, where each piece isdesigned to spark reflection and
dialogue.
You can also join our growingcommunity for behind-the-scenes
conversations, resources, andsupport of your own journey
through tension andtransformation.
And if We just want to saythank you in a simple way.
You can always buy me a coffee.
Every gesture helps keep thespace going.
(44:45):
All the links are in the shownotes.
And until next time, keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
intro music
Dr. Shay (00:19):
Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn
tension into transformationthrough clarity, connection, and
consistency.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nashay Lowe, and this is aspace where we explore what's
really underneath the momentsthat challenge us and how they
can lead to something morehonest, more human, and more
whole.
So let's get into it.
We often think leadership isabout having the answers, but
(00:45):
what if it's more about askingthe right questions?
In this episode, I'm joined byexecutive coach and DEI
strategist, Dr.
Pérez, to talk about whatcultural humility really looks
like in practice, not just forexecutives, but for anyone
navigating relationships acrosslines of identity, power, or
experience.
From family dynamics toworkplace leadership, this
(01:06):
conversation explores how egoand tension and fear of getting
it wrong can hold us back andhow letting go of being the
expert can actually bring uscloser to real connection,
equity, and lasting change.
Joel, can you please introduceyourself?
Dr. Pérez (01:22):
Thank you for having me on the podcast.
My name is Joel Pérez, and I'man executive and leadership
coach.
And I wrote a book called DearWhite Leader, How to Achieve
Organizational ExcellenceThrough Cultural Humility,
mainly because of the work I wasdoing with my clients who
identify as white, who aretrying to navigate how do I lead
(01:42):
diverse teams, particularly ata time when organizations were
in volatile spaces because ofthe murder of George Floyd,
wanting to become moreinclusive.
And in that process, Irealized, I think I have a book
here.
And so that led to the projectof writing a book.
I'm based in Los Angeles.
I have four biracial children,ages 13 to 21.
(02:05):
They all live at home.
And my spouse and I have beenmarried almost 29 years.
And she and I met in college.
And yeah, and so my backgroundis higher education.
I've worked in higher educationover 20 years.
And then in 2019, left highereducation and started my
(02:26):
coaching and consultingpractice.
Dr. Shay (02:28):
Amazing.
And again, thank you for beinghere.
So let's start here.
We live in a culture thatteaches us to perform
confidence, but you help leaderspractice humility.
So why do you think humilityfeels so hard for people in
power.
Dr. Pérez (02:44):
That's a good question.
So I think three years ago, Idid a LinkedIn poll.
It wasn't a validated study oranything like that.
But I put a poll like, do youall, do you, my network, do you
(03:04):
believe that humility is acentral aspect to leadership?
And most people said yes.
One person said no.
And the one person said nobecause they feel like at times
humility can get in the way ofhaving to make hard decisions.
Okay.
(03:25):
And that it was a sign ofweakness.
And so now the people that saidyes, I didn't dig further,
right?
There was no qualitativefollow-up.
I'm guessing...
Well, as a follow-up I did, doyou all believe that cultural
humility is an important aspectof leadership?
And I got more no's during thattime, again, because of this
(03:51):
idea that the term humility,although it's something we all
aspire to when it comes toleadership, there's this belief
that it can limit you in makingthe hard decisions and or impact
the Right.
That empathy is not good forleaders to have because
(04:42):
empathetic leaders can't makehard decisions.
And again, I don't believethat.
I think empathy is a verystrong piece or a characteristic
of exceptional leadership.
But clearly there is a beliefby some that empathy and
humility are actually obstaclesto becoming a strong leader.
Dr. Shay (05:07):
Yes.
And actually, let's back up fora second.
And can you define what we'retalking about when we say
humility and cultural
Dr. Pérez (05:16):
humility?
is taking that further,particularly when it comes to
(05:41):
working with people that havedifferent salient identities
than yourself and recognizingthat there are stories that
other people have that need tobe listened to, particularly
around their identities, thatshould influence the way you
(06:01):
lead, particularly those thatare in your sphere of influence,
whether that isorganizationally, family, faith,
community, volunteerorganization.
And so the way culturalhumility is defined is there's
three characteristics,self-awareness and
self-critique.
(06:21):
Redressing power imbalances.
And that's where the differenceis.
Culture humility is you as youbegin to listen to others, you
recognize that things may needto change so that others can be
successful in organizations thatwhether it's retention, whether
(06:43):
it's promotion rates, whetherit's pay equity.
And then as you begin torecognize that there's things
that need to be addressed orredressed, you begin to
recognize that there's a need tochange.
address those power balancesthat ultimately leads to
systemic change.
So cultural humility is notjust about you.
It's about the people you leadand the organization you serve
(07:07):
in.
So it moves beyond just theindividual where I think
humility, in my view, is moreabout personal, where cultural
humility is more aboutorganizationally and or and or
societal.
Dr. Shay (07:25):
Right.
And can you provide like anyexamples of how cultural
humility shows up in everydayconflicts, like whether that be
family disagreements, tense teammeetings or identity based
Dr. Pérez (07:36):
misunderstandings?
Yeah.
So the way I example would beat the dinner table, we have
said there are six of us.
We all live at home.
My kids all have varyingperspectives politically, about
life.
We have hard conversations.
(07:57):
The example I share with you istwo of my kids were having an
argument and it was clearly theywere raising their voice and
they were getting agitated ateach other.
The conversation ended and Isaid, okay, are you all willing
to walk away still loving eachother?
And the answer was yes.
(08:18):
I said, that's good.
That's an aspect of culturalhumility, meaning that even
though you may disagree withsomeone, you're able to walk
away with a better understandingof that person's point of view,
as opposed to feeling like Ishould have convinced them that
I was right and they were wrong.
So it's having this posture ofcuriosity.
(08:39):
So the three things that I tellwhen I do workshops that you
need to develop in order todevelop a posture of cultural
humility are having a growthmindset, developing deep
curiosity and deep listeningbecause you have to be able to
understand where other peopleare coming from so that you can
(09:00):
leave a conversation better it'snot about convincing the other
person that they're wrong orthey're right or that they're
wrong you're right and viceversa the problem is now in
society and because we're in apolarized world is that we don't
have conversations like thatit's about me convincing you by
laying out my talking pointswithout really being curious and
(09:22):
asking questions.
That doesn't mean we're goingto ultimately agree, but I
contend that we would leaveconversations in better places.
And we may change our minds onsome things, but we may not.
But I still love you andrespect you and see you as a
colleague and a friend.
Absolutely.
So that's the piece of theculture of humility that's
(09:43):
really important.
And I think it allows for spacein the middle.
So I think it's important thatwe develop this podcast Because
I think what the other thingthat cultural humility does is
it creates space for people tobe in the middle because they
don't have this fear of beinglabeled by one extreme or the
(10:03):
other extreme, which causespeople to shut down and isolate
themselves and not ask questionsfor fear of being labeled and
misinterpreted, misconstrued.
And that is leading to thepolarization that exists because
people in the middle feel likethey cannot ask questions
(10:25):
because they have a fear ofbeing labeled.
You know, if you're going touse political terms, progressive
or conservative, right?
And that gets in the way ofhaving really deep, meaningful
conversation and dialogue thatneeds to happen.
Dr. Shay (10:41):
And thank you for using the example of like
family, because I think, again,that kind of brought more nuance
to the definition of culture,because I think most people
wouldn't expect there to bemulti culture in the same
Dr. Pérez (10:52):
family yeah yeah and particularly like for me you
know faith is really importantto me and I want to have deep
conversations about of faithwithout fear or creating fear in
other people to share who theytheir beliefs because they if
they share beliefs that aredifferent than mine that they're
(11:13):
going to get ostracized orasked to leave the congregation
and that's and that's wherethat's where Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
strip culture humility, you canenter into conversations with
(11:55):
really being curious and askingopen-ended questions.
So that's important.
And the growth mindset'simportant because we all make
mistakes.
In the book, I share my ownmistakes, but it's what I do
with those mistakes, right?
I could very easily like shutdown after I make mistakes, but
(12:15):
having a growth mindset meanswhat can I do to learn from
this?
So I'm better even in my mid50s or in midlife, mid 50s and
not mid 50s.
I'm going to be close to mid50s.
It doesn't mean that I can'tlearn new things just because
I'm older or I'm a boomer.
I have to have this posture of,I have to have this posture of
(12:37):
being open to learning more sothat I can get better.
Dr. Shay (12:41):
Right.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Okay.
So one thing you brought up, Iwant to revisit was again,
entering conversations, not withthe intent of trying to be
right, but again, trying tobridge understanding.
Right.
And I guess on the other end ofthat, there's some people, many
(13:01):
well-meaning people stay quietbecause they're afraid of
messing up.
So how do we show shift fromfear of failure to curiosity and
tough conversations.
I think that builds on whatyou're talking about with the
growth mindset.
Dr. Pérez (13:13):
Yeah, having a growth mindset, but also feeling
like you can have a, if you, soif I'm coaching someone and I
have coached people who haveexperienced a microaggression or
something that's happened inthe workplace they disagree
with, my first question'salways, one, are you okay with
that?
Generally, it's no, right?
(13:34):
And I said, is this somethingyou want to address?
So if the answer is yes, okay.
What are some things that youbelieve you can do to address
the particular scenario you'vejust described, right?
A boss said something.
And then my next question is,do you feel in your
(13:59):
organization's culture, do youfeel like you can ask a question
or address the area withoutfear of losing your job.
If there is fear that you'regoing to lose your job, then I
will never advise someone thatyou got to go ahead and go
forward.
What I would say is...
Two things, right?
(14:20):
If you feel like theorganizational culture doesn't
allow for that kind ofconversation, then it's a
different conversation in thesense of, is this the right,
does this organization have thevalues that are in alignment
with your values?
Okay, so there's that.
There's a career coachingaspect.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
(14:41):
But for me, I always put thiscaveat, and I do this too, not
(15:08):
only with coaching, but when Ido workshops, safe space does
not mean comfortable, right?
There's going to be somediscomfort because this
conversation can be hard, right?
Now, when I coach leaderswho've perpetrated a
microaggression, then theconversation is that someone
might say, not someone, someonehas said to me, I really messed
(15:31):
up.
I committed a microaggression.
I said, okay.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhy you think you need to
address it.
So I want to make sure it'scoming from a genuine place,
right?
And in their book, Did ThatJust Happen?
It's called Did That JustHappen?
The authors walk through forleaders and organizations how to
(15:53):
recover and address whenmicroaggressions happen.
And what I've learned from thatand have used is the first
thing is you apologize, right?
But you apologize not expectinganything in return.
Okay, so an example, I wasdoing a, I was a keynote speaker
for a virtual event.
(16:14):
I used an example, I talkedabout nostalgia and the problems
that sometimes nostalgia cancreate in moving forward because
we want everything to go backto the way it was, right?
And the example I used did notland well with a particular
person.
So they gave me some feedbackThank you.
(16:36):
I was like, oh, all right, howdo I do this?
Practice what I preach.
So I sent them an email.
I said, first of all, I am sosorry that this happened.
I do not expect you to reply tome, but if you are open to
having a conversation so I canlearn exactly how it landed, why
(16:57):
it landed the way it is, I'mopen to that.
But I don't expect you torespond to this email.
If you choose not to respond,great.
Have a great rest of your Ifyou do, here's how we can meet
and connect.
Right.
I tried not to make it about megetting defensive, which a lot
of people do.
Right.
Like, oh, I'm so sorry.
That's not what I meant.
Or you misconstrued somethingthat I said.
(17:20):
And that is not good.
Particularly with people from,I'm not using the term
underestimated groups.
People from underestimatedgroups, we, people, when we
experience a micro, I identifyas a When I experience a
microaggression and the personon the other end is apologizing,
(17:42):
sometimes it becomes more aboutthem and how, you know, or
like, well, tell me what I needto do better.
Well, are you asking me to helpyou?
And I may not feel comfortablehelping you, but I don't have
permission to just say no.
So if you're perpetrating it toget people permission, like
here's one, I'm sorry.
(18:03):
I really do want to get better.
Are you open to help me getbetter?
And if you're not, that's okay.
And just walk away.
But we have a hard time doingthat because we want to fix it
right away, right?
Dr. Shay (18:20):
Right.
And you want the validationfrom the other person that they
accept your apology.
Dr. Pérez (18:27):
Yeah.
So the example I gave issomething that I did as a
speaker that I knew that Ineeded to model.
Let's say I offended someoneand I needed to apologize.
And then as I've done theseworkshops, we talk about it.
I communicate with people howit is you recover, but also
making it not a about you, butwe're all gonna make mistakes.
(18:48):
Growth mindset.
Curiosity.
learning how to listen deeply,because we all say we're better
listeners than we actually are.
I'm guilty of that.
My guess is you may be guiltyof that.
My spouse reminds me that I'mguilty of that, right?
And so being able to prepare tohave conversations in a way
(19:11):
where I am centered and fullypresent.
Dr. Shay (19:15):
Absolutely.
And actually, can we go back alittle bit, just because I want
to clarify too, can you definewhat we're talking about when we
say microaggressions and youknow I feel like it might be
misconstrued as something justoversensitive people take jokes
too seriously and things likethat so
Dr. Pérez (19:32):
what do we mean well microaggressions when you so an
example would be when I was incollege I was working for
someone who identifies a whitemale and I'll use a pseudonym
we'll say Larry Larry said Larrywas trying to get to know me
and so I said hey you know LarryI'm a son of immigrants Spanish
is my first language He said,wow, you're so articulate.
(19:56):
I had no idea.
I could tell you were son ofimmigrants.
Okay.
So it's when you say somethingthat singles out someone's a
particular aspect of someone,your intent may have been, you
know, you may have intended notto be offensive, but the impact
(20:20):
was clearly felt by that otherperson.
Right.
So one of the examples,particularly my colleagues of
color, who are doctorate youknow doctorate like I have a PhD
and and you have a you know youhave a doctorate and something
that sometimes happens to me islike oh man you're so articulate
like okay so what are youtrying to communicate to me
(20:45):
right let's have a conversationof why that was and that may not
be offensive to everyone rightthere's some things that some
are offensive to others and notnot offensive to you and not
others so it's when you offendsomeone in a way that initially
your intention is to be positivelike to give a compliment but
it's really not a compliment andit's not received as a
(21:08):
compliment right or it's justoutright rude right um and and
it's not like overt racism orovert offensiveness it's the
little bit you know backhandedcomment right and it may not
just be around race it could bearound gender socioeconomic It
(21:28):
could be just around interactingwith family.
So one of the things aboutbeing curious is to remembering
to remember to be curious.
That's important.
So back to your point aroundthe microaggression, that's how
I describe it and define it.
I know there's an actualacademic definition, which I
(21:50):
don't have in front of me, and Idon't have it memorized.
But what I try to help peoplewith is how do you recover from
it?
Dr. Shay (21:57):
Yes.
start that conversation withsomeone who commits one without
(22:31):
also making them defensivebecause they weren't
intentionally trying to be rudehow do you even start that
conversation without blaming andthen second I sort of feel like
When we talk about stuff likethis, my girl, I feel like
everything has become sort oflike kind of taboo to talk about
(22:51):
because it's like, oh, here wego again with the sensitivity
police, blah, blah, blah.
But the reality is we've beendoing a lot of wrong things
socially for a long time andwe're just not kind of speaking
up to what we should have beendoing all along.
So it's kind of like, how do weeven get people to realize just
sort of bad habits we've beendoing for a long time are no
longer publicly okay?
(23:11):
I
Dr. Pérez (23:14):
think there's two aspects to it.
I mean, there's two things Iwould say to your question.
One is, are you one torecognize if you're in a
position of power, if yousupervise people, right?
To you modeling that it's okayfor people to come to you,
(23:34):
right?
Or letting people know that,hey, if I say, and not just say
it, but actually, you know,demonstrate it, right?
So if I ever commit amicroaggression or offend you,
Um, I really want to know aboutthose things because I want to
get better before it happens.
So you as a leader level set,right?
If it's happened to you, areyou, again, back to the safety
(23:58):
piece, are you able to confrontyour boss, your peer, your
colleague, right?
Do you feel like you can dothat?
If you feel like you can do,one is to get ready to have the
conversation.
And it could be as easy, likefor me in the book, I describe a
person who identifies as awhite woman came to me and said,
(24:20):
can I give you some feedback?
And I was like, sure.
I knew it wasn't going to be aquick conversation, even though
for me it was towards the end ofthe day I wanted to get home.
But she shared with me like,hey, do you recognize that you
tend to call on mostly the menin the room?
And you also tend to call onthe people who are more vocal
(24:45):
about their opinions, which forme, there was some bias against
introverts, bias against women,right?
she felt safe enough or I hadcreated a space where she felt
now this person's also very verycourageous and not afraid to
mix it up with you but I hadcreated a space where she didn't
(25:06):
feel like I was going to likeyou know get over it move on
whatever so you as a leader haveto create that space for the
feedback to happen you as theperson who feel you have to feel
like you can but it generallyit's more of like do I feel like
Joel is going to receive it.
Right?
If you feel like someone's notgoing to receive it, but you
(25:27):
still want to say it, then Ithink the approach is...
So I just want you to know,Joel, your comment right now, I
know you may have intended it acertain way, but here's how it
impacted me.
As a person from a minoritizedcommunity, underrepresented
community, underestimatedcommunity, and I want to make
(25:50):
you aware because I don't wantyou to do it again to someone
else.
And here's what you said, andhere's how it impacted me.
Now, hopefully the personreceives it well, but if they
don't, you, the person, have tobe ready for it.
for what may ensue, right?
The defensiveness.
And I know right now with theway we're so polarized and
(26:13):
particularly our currentpolitical environment, there's
probably going to be moretrepidation.
And that fear is real.
And so I want to name it forpeople that it's okay to be
afraid of the conversation, butyou need to determine if it's
something you want to moveforward with and develop a
strategy before you engage.
in that conversation.
Dr. Shay (26:35):
Absolutely.
And I want to go back again tosomething you said earlier.
It was the quote from ElonMusk.
So you work with executiveteams and nonprofits, but your
work isn't just strategic, it'sdeeply relational.
So what does it really meanthen to lead with empathy?
Dr. Pérez (26:53):
Yeah, that's good.
One is, so I also coach peoplewho don't consider themselves
very empathetic.
So what it looks like isAcknowledging people's feelings
and hurt.
blog post not too long ago onthe power of proximity, meaning
(27:39):
sometimes people just want youto be present.
They don't want you to solvetheir problems.
And this is an extreme example,right?
Someone comes in crying andthere's clearly something has
happened.
To just ask, do you want totalk about it or do you just
want me to sit here and listen?
So that's one piece.
(27:59):
To lead with empathy means I amlearning to listen to people's
stories and their livedexperiences in a way that
seeking to understand andrecognizing that we bring
whatever's happening in ourworld into the workplace, if
(28:20):
it's a work situation.
If it's with your spouse oryour partner, it's looking at
them directly and just wentagain.
So like, I'm so sorry this ishappening.
So the other example I'll shareis I had a friend, I have a
friend that I had, he's still afriend, who his son developed a
(28:42):
really just, well, his sonpassed away at a very, very
young age.
Like, I think they were two orthree.
Yeah.
contracted genetically had thisdisease that was just i mean it
was really it just wrecked himright because he was watching
his child deteriorate mentallybefore his eyes it hurt right it
(29:08):
was hurting me clearly becauseit was hurting him i was living
in oregon at the time I said,hey, give him a pseudonym.
Hey, Victor, are you okay if Ijust fly down and be with you?
(29:28):
I just want to sit with you.
I'm not asking for anything inreturn.
I just want to be with you.
That is leading with empathy,right?
And hearing people,particularly people like are
having problems with decisionsor the direction the
(29:51):
organization is going isacknowledging that there's some
pain, right?
You're restructuring theorganization.
You're letting people go Youcan still be empathetic.
Empathy does not mean weaknessor you don't hold people
accountable, but you truly, youhave a posture of listening
where you are absorbing what'shappening and just acknowledging
(30:14):
that there's hurt, not justacknowledging.
When acknowledging that there'shurt, it's like, okay, what can
we do to get better?
So we treat you with dignityand we help people just feel
like we're, we feel like humansand not just Exactly,
Dr. Shay (30:33):
exactly.
And those two things, thatpersonal and professional,
(31:03):
should be separated.
What do you say to those
Dr. Pérez (31:06):
people?
Well, I think we're beyond thepoint where people are now being
impacted outside of work thatit's not coming into the
workplace.
So one, that's the reality.
And given the generations thatare coming into the workplace,
they want to be themselves andbe truly authentic to
themselves.
So if you want to retain thosepeople, you have to learn to
(31:31):
listen with empathy.
and be okay.
I mean, you can create someboundaries and parameters.
I think that's fair, right?
I believe that's fair to do.
But you can still do it in away that acknowledges people's,
affirms their identities andtheir experiences that they're
bringing into the workplace.
(31:51):
The other piece I would say iswhat is the organization doing
to prepare leaders?
Yeah, you're not therapists.
So if a therapy situation comesup how do you feel support as a
leader from your organizationto be able to say clearly
there's some things going on andI want we want to provide some
(32:14):
resources for you as anorganization and Also, I've been
trained on what to say and helpyou so that if clearly there's
some therapeutic stuff thatneeds to happen, and people know
that I can say, thank you forsharing, what support do you
(32:36):
need in order to get the helpyou need?
Because I cannot provide youwith counseling and therapy.
So what's the organizationdoing to train people?
to be a resources for people.
Dr. Shay (32:52):
Yeah.
Training people to be resourcesfor people.
I like that.
So, you know, in highexperiences and some of my work
too, that can be a bitfrustrating as someone who
deeply cares about a lot ofthese issues.
And we're talking about DEInow.
And actually, before we evenjump in there, can you define
what we're meaning by DEI whenwe say this?
(33:14):
I want to define everything.
Dr. Pérez (33:15):
Yeah.
So DEI to me means diversity,equity, and inclusion, right?
So diversity to me is for me,the aesthetic piece.
We want people that lookdifferent, have different
cultural backgrounds.
The equity piece for me is whatare we doing to create an
(33:36):
equitable organization?
The example I generally shareis pay equity, right?
That men get paid more thanwomen.
And if we want there to beequity, we need to start
leveling the playing field.
or redressing the powerimbalance that may exist.
(33:57):
And some organizations aredoing this.
The inclusion is, are wecreating space for people with
different perspectives thatbring different perspectives to
come together and not only feel,but truly create an
organization where they feelincluded at the table?
(34:18):
So diversity is, I would say,Historically, what a lot of
organizations were doing, right?
It's more checking the boxes.
We have so much percentage.
Still important.
Representation is important,but it's more than just
representation.
It's how are we creatingorganizations that are inclusive
and then also equitable so thatwe can be the best organization
(34:43):
we can be.
Dr. Shay (34:45):
Yeah.
And that hits the nail on thehead on my next question,
because DEI isn't just a box tocheck, right?
It's a practice.
It's a continuous effort.
And given our politicalclimate, I think there's a lot
of institutions that are makingeffort, but I know that people
(35:08):
who work for them might disclaimthat they feel more
performative than sincere.
So how do you help clients movefrom theoretical application to
real change?
Dr. Pérez (35:20):
So I always stress the importance of having a
framework.
If you're going to truly createchange in an organization, a
framework to guide your efforts,because you can't just take a,
let's throw a up on the wall andsee what sticks.
It has to be intentionalbecause you want to embed the
change into the organization soit becomes part of the ethos of
(35:44):
the organization.
And that's where the heavylifting needs to happen.
But the way you do that is youstart with gathering data,
right?
Because I believe data isimportant because it shows us
where our gaps exist and But Ialso believe that you have to
(36:04):
anchor your work in mission,vision, and values.
Now, I know some organizationsare changing their mission,
vision, and values because ofpressure.
But I believe if you're trulygoing to remain true to your
values as an organization andyou say you value diversity,
equity, inclusion, or inclusion,then you need to own it.
(36:26):
But you can't just say it.
You have to...
identify is it actuallyhappening and that's where the
pulling the data and then onceyou see where you are from a
baseline perspective and thenokay we want to get better how
do we get better and thenthere's that framework that's
really helpful in guiding you asopposed to you can't just hire
(36:48):
someone you can't just start aprogram which a lot of
organizations have done right inresponse that hasn't led to
change it's been performativeright that doesn't mean that
perform it that you don't needto be That doesn't mean you
don't need to perform, but itmeans it's one thing to say and
just do it, but are youmeasuring the impact in a way
(37:12):
that's going to continuallyallow you to assess progress?
And not very many organizationsdo that.
Dr. Shay (37:20):
Yeah.
And so what are some finds thatan organization is ready for
real change?
Dr. Pérez (37:27):
One, they have the conversation with multiple
people in the room, right?
People high up in theorganization so they can
demonstrate that this isimportant.
Yes, that's performative.
But with that posture oflistening and then, okay, we got
to make changes and we're goingto put...
(37:48):
We're going to allocate theresources in order for the
change to happen.
Human, fiscal, time, becauseit's going to take work.
And then making sure thatyou're making progress or
collecting data baseline, butthen also to show you're making
(38:09):
progress.
And there's four areas that Italk about in the framework that
I...
One is...
Organizational climate andintergroup relations.
How are people experiencingeach other?
The other is what are you doingor vitality and viability?
So what are you doing tosustain your work over time?
(38:31):
training and development?
So how are you buildingcapacity for your leaders to
lead cross-culturally,cross-generationally?
And then what are you doing inrecruitment and retention?
That's not just about hiringpeople.
It's how you, are you retainingthem and are they moving
(38:54):
through the organization at therate you want them to move?
So that's how I work withorganizations is once you, so
for me, organizations that'sserious that isn't just being
performative it's actuallyhaving a plan and then following
through on the plan right andthen letting people know being
(39:14):
public about hey we're doingthis work we're doing okay over
here but we're not doing sogreat over here and we need to
figure out why
Dr. Shay (39:26):
so zooming out a little bit what's one tangible
practice that any anyone,regardless of their title, can
begin today to lead with moreculture of humility.
Dr. Pérez (39:41):
Starts with self-awareness.
And there are three things thatI help leaders work through.
One is identifying the biasesthat you as a leader have, and
then talking about how do youmitigate the impact of those
biases.
Getting clear on your salientidentities, even as a white
(40:03):
heterosexual man, that is youridentity.
Because then you can mayberecognize that there's some
things that I'm doing that Idon't know that I'm doing
because I don't have to worryabout it, right?
Or whatever the identity is,you need to get clear on your
salient identities or what Icall cultural self-awareness.
(40:25):
And the other is otherawareness, right?
Learning more about the peoplethat are in your organization or
the people you lead so that youcan understand their stories,
but letting them know that yougenuinely are curious, that
you're not just checking a box.
And you can't just go aroundasking people their identity.
(40:48):
The example I give in the bookand that I share is I was
working with a person identifiedas a white woman who wanted to
get to know her team.
Right.
Right.
Cultural self-awareness andother awareness.
(41:22):
And that's where leaders needto start.
And growth mindset, developingdeep curiosity, and developing
the ability to deeply listen.
Dr. Shay (41:35):
So in this work, it's easy to focus on what's broken,
right?
What gives you hope about howpeople are showing up
differently?
Yeah.
Dr. Pérez (41:46):
Oh, that's a good question.
Well, I just innately, I'm aglass half full kind of guy.
What gives me hope is that whenI have conversations,
one-on-one conversations withpeople, I can hear that there's
a genuineness.
(42:06):
of people wanting to get betterat this because they recognize
that they need to get better,but I've created a space for
them to acknowledge that theyneed to get better.
So that's what gives me hopeand keeps me going.
And that's my why is I wantpeople to get better at this,
but my why is also, I need toget better at it too, because I
(42:29):
need to model it.
All right.
Yeah.
And that's hard.
Right.
But, but it starts with you.
That's why I always say itstarts with you, but it doesn't,
end with you
Dr. Shay (42:39):
absolutely so yeah well thank you so much for
speaking with me today um canyou let everyone know where to
follow you and your work
Dr. Pérez (42:48):
yeah so i am on linkedin um i would encourage
people you can download thefirst chapter of my book if you
go to dear white leader.com andthe first chapter is made
available so if you want to readit and kind of go hey this is
really interesting uh and thenwhich may lead to you buying the
book but um so but for mefollowing linkedin is where I
(43:10):
live, where I interact withpeople.
And then the website isdearwhiteleader.com.
Dr. Shay (43:17):
Thank you.
So in this episode, Dr.
Paredes helped us rethink whatit means to lead well, not with
ego or fear, but with thecourage to stay curious.
We explored how humility isn'tweakness.
It's a powerful tool forconnection, repair, and
transformation.
Whether we're navigatingidentity-based tension, tough
conversations, or internal orour own internal biases.
(43:40):
As we were reminded, the goalisn't to avoid mistakes.
It's to stay in the room whenthey happen.
Real change starts when we'rewilling to trade certainty for
growth and perfectionism forpresence.
If you've ever felt pressuredto have the right words or
worried about saying the wrongthing, this episode is a gentle
nudge towards something better.
(44:00):
Honesty, listening, and thekind of leadership that centers
people over performance.
As always, thank you forjoining me in the resolution
room.
If this conversation moved you,challenged you, or gave you
something to carry forward,consider supporting the show.
You can explore our wearablewisdom collection in our mind
(44:24):
shop, where each piece isdesigned to spark reflection and
dialogue.
You can also join our growingcommunity for behind-the-scenes
conversations, resources, andsupport of your own journey
through tension andtransformation.
And if We just want to saythank you in a simple way.
You can always buy me a coffee.
Every gesture helps keep thespace going.
(44:45):
All the links are in the shownotes.
And until next time, keepbuilding in the quiet because
that's what will carry youforward.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.