May 16, 2025 • 38 mins
Welcome to The Sanctuary of Sin Podcast, where we dive headfirst into the juicy, the taboo, and the scandalously sinful. In this deep dive, we’re exploring perhaps the most infamous—and, let’s be honest, most fun—of the Seven Deadly Sins: Lust.
In Part 1, we’re setting the scene with an exploration of lust as more than just a desire for sex. Lust is a primal force—fueling love, rebellion, shame, art, kink, and control. It’s a craving that drives connection and creation… and, depending on who you ask, possibly the downfall of civilization.
We crack open the ancient scrolls and modern myths to trace how this most human urge became demonized. From Saint Augustine’s iconic teenage erection (yes, really), to the weaponization of shame in patriarchal religion, we unpack how a single mortifying moment at the Roman baths helped build the foundation for centuries of sexual repression. We’re talking original sin, boner guilt, and the birth of the idea that your genitals must be mastered. Spoiler: he blamed his dick for literally everything.
We then track how lust was politicised and policed throughout history—from ancient matriarchal fertility worship to the rise of the patriarchy, where women’s bodies became currency and sex became a site of control. With quotes from scripture, scandalous kings, and rebellious academics, we unravel how sexuality—especially women’s—was tamed to fit systems of power, inheritance, and religious doctrine.
But it’s not all fire and brimstone. We’ll also touch on how lust found liberation in the 20th century: the sexual revolution, the pill, the rise of free love, and how we’re still riding the wave of sex positivity today. From slut-shaming to sacred kink, from Genesis to Grindr—lust has come a long way, baby.
So grab your flogger and your favorite beverage—this is one sin you’ll be glad you didn’t resist.
Trigger warning: This episode discusses religion, sexual shame, reproductive rights, and systemic oppression. Take care of yourselves and listen with awareness.
Check out our blog article for links to all of our research: https://thesanctuaryofsin.com/blogs/the-sanctuary-of-sin-podcast/e3-lust-the-sin-that-built-an-industry-part-1
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Until next time,
Stay curious. Stay kinky. Stay sinful.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jayson (00:00):
So on today's episode, we're going to be doing a deep
dive into probably the mostinteresting, at least for us,
deadly sin.
Lust.
Rebecca (00:10):
Lust is an intense craving or desire, often for
sexual pleasure.
It's a primal human driveshaped by culture, religion and
personal experience.
Lust plays a key role in humansexuality.
It fuels attraction, intimacyand pleasure.
and can deepen connection whenexpressed consensually.
Jayson (00:29):
However, its impact goes beyond the personal.
Lust has been both celebratedand condemned throughout
history.
Seen as essential for passionand creativity, but also
labelled as dangerous orimmoral, it's this tension that
makes lust so powerful.
It drives industries,relationships and revolutions,
whilst also sparking fear, shameand control.
Rebecca (00:52):
So segment one, historical perspectives,
starting with religiouscondemnation.
Genesis 4-7.
If you do what is right, willyou not be accepted?
But if you do not do well, sinis lurking at the door.
Its desire is for you, but youmust master it.
Jayson (01:09):
Alright folks, buckle up.
We're diving deep into one ofthe most iconic boners in
theological history.
That's right, we're talkingabout St Augustine, a man whose
teenage shame...
basically invented slut shamingas we know it
Rebecca (01:25):
i had such a field day with this research and i swear
like our friends and family areprobably sick of me talking
about this guy at this pointbecause it's just oh i've just
got totally hooked like i readhis book man we'll get into that
later but oh i've done a deepdive and a half on this one
Very, very interesting.
Jayson (01:44):
Aye, I've seen you squirrel on away spending plenty
of hours just reading and everyso often popping your head up
to give me a snippet of a story.
Rebecca (01:54):
Now, Lust has always been knocking around as a bit of
a biblical no-no, but it didn'treally make the All-Star Shin
Squad until Augustine got hishands on it.
All of this can be
Jayson (02:16):
traced back to one embarrassing moment in his
teenage life.
At 16, his father took him tothe local baths where he
conceivably got a hormonal bonerand wanted the floor to eat him
up.
His dad, rather than ignoringthe scene, proceeded to get
absolutely buzzing that he wasgoing to have grandchildren soon
and proceeded to rush home andtell his wife, Augustine's mum.
(02:39):
His mother, being frightfullyreligious, did not take this
well.
You can imagine how horriblethis must have been for him and
set him on one of the mostinfluential and damaging
journeys in sex, positive ornegative as the case may be,
history.
Rebecca (02:56):
So this was quite an interesting reading that, do you
know, I feel he himself wasn'treligious at this point.
I've left quite a lot of hisstory out just because there was
so much there to speak aboutand discuss and I just thought
it was too much for just asegment in this episode but I'm
(03:16):
sure we will cover him again atsome point because there is a
lot to unpack there.
A lot that I haven't touched.
You can put himself in thisposition here where he's had
this embarrassing thing happenand both these parents...
having reacted in suchdifferent ways have still both
created this kind of almosttraumatising event for him that
(03:38):
he spent the rest of his lifetrying to fix.
Jayson (03:42):
Yeah, I mean if something like that happens to
you at that age all you want isfor everybody to pretend it
didn't happen.
They were both quite extremereactions to that and that kind
of thing would definitely stickwith you.
Rebecca (03:56):
Definitely.
Definitely.
So, while he was not religiouswhen young and rampantly shagged
anything with a pulse, evenstealing pears as an act of
rebellion of God's will, onceconverted, he really struggled
with control over his own needsand felt this was the source of
all the evil in the world.
His penis was quite literallythe source of all the world's
(04:17):
problems.
Jayson (04:19):
Quote, Sometimes it refuses to act when the mind
wills.
while often it acts against itswill.
His strong need and search forbody autonomy, paired with his
15-year-long obsession to takeevery word written in Genesis as
literal, led to his owncreation, the concept of
original sin.
He believed that Adam and Evewouldn't have had sex in the
(04:41):
usual way, but instead, quote,they would not have had the
activity of turbulent lust intheir flesh.
However, but only the movementof of peaceful will by which we
command the other members of thebody
Rebecca (04:55):
don't know why this immediately brings fists into
mind but hey I was speaking toone of your friends about this
and like me and him had such alaugh like thinking about
penises being like totallywithin your control like
elephant trunks like pure beingable to like pick things up and
that like laughed for like fiveminutes genuinely like fucking
peeling bananas and stuff likebut yeah wild.
(05:21):
To kind of speak a wee bitabout the Genesis stuff, like, I
just, I feel like everybodythat I research, I always end up
thinking is pure autism coded.
But like, that for me, youknow, this like obsessive need,
15 years is a long time
Jayson (05:38):
to spend.
Yeah, that's not like
Rebecca (05:40):
a wee side hobby, you know.
This man spent like a decentchunk of his adult life like
trying to make it so that everysingle word in a book could be
taken as literal like he gotreally caught up on there's a
bit in Genesis where they'retalking about Adam and Eve's
eyes being opened for the firsttime three years he spent on
(06:03):
that three years he couldn't getpast it he got stuck on how
they could possibly haveliterally had their eyes closed
up until this moment and yeahit's just wild so interesting so
he believed that god created uswith full control of our
genitals now there's a partytrick his proof of this being
(06:25):
quote some people can even movetheir ears either one at a time
or both together and quoteproduce at will such musical
sounds from their behind withoutany stink that they seem to be
singing from that region so ifind it really interesting that
this is his kind of evidence forthis And that, like, you know,
(06:46):
in order to...
Almost to, like, the mentalgymnastics to make this, like,
not only possible, but true.
And, like, undeniably true.
You know, Bible true.
That, like...
He's just picking on what I canonly assume is stuff he's seen
at like a circus or somethingsomewhere.
Jayson (07:06):
I mean, it very much reminds me of stuff that you
would see on the playground atprimary school.
Yeah, yeah,
Rebecca (07:11):
totally, totally.
Quite a childlike way oflooking at the world.
Yeah, yeah.
Reading about, like, this wasin his book, all these quotes
are from his book, which I don'tthink I said, but...
Aye, clutching at straws.
Clutching at straws.
Jayson (07:27):
Definitely, definitely seems like it.
It's wild how he's...
Do you know, from that kind ofone big embarrassing moment,
he's pulled so much in fromroundabout him in his life to
form this sort of ideology.
Rebecca (07:44):
Yeah.
This is why I thought this wasa really important thing to talk
about and why I found it sointeresting is that, you know,
like, through his teachings andthrough his ideologies and stuff
he has been labelled as one ofthe most influential western
philosophers of his time interms of the kind of effect that
(08:06):
he's had ongoing from totalbutterfly moment and it can all
be traced back to this one veryhuman moment in his life that
he's just spent the rest of thetime trying to almost undo and
make it not his fault, but notGod's fault either, because that
would be blasphemous.
I think this is what's got himreally turned round about, and
(08:30):
like this three-year stint thathe spent on the Adam and Eve
story, that one fact that gotstuck that he couldn't make
true, this is where things havegot so almost wild and out of
proportion to reality, becausehe's had to create and weave
(08:51):
this narrative of it's not hisfault this happened, it's not
his parents' fault thishappened, it's not God's fault
this has happened, it must bejust humanity is wrong.
Jayson (09:01):
Aye, it's all kind of been born out of his desperation
to uphold the values that hesees as important.
So he theorised that onlythrough Eve biting the apple,
lust was discovered.
Quote, they turned their eyeson their own genitals and lusted
after them with that stirringmovement they had not previously
(09:24):
known.
Rebecca (09:24):
Do you often find yourself lusting after your own
genitals?
Jayson (09:27):
I mean, not usually.
Rebecca (09:29):
Not kink shaming, just curious.
Anyway, all of this led him tothe concept that shagging was
the original sin and was so loudabout this that he paved the
way reinventing the Adam and Evestory and bringing it back from
almost obscurity.
The minds at the time were lessconvinced of talking snakes and
magic trees than we are today.
(09:49):
As part of this, he decreedthat any and all sex, even
within a married couple, issinful unless for the purposes
of procreation.
Quote, Amazing how one erectionhas changed the course of human
(10:10):
history forever.
Maybe if his
Jayson (10:21):
dad had sat him down and you know, had the talk.
Human sexuality as we know ittoday would be vastly different,
but instead slut shaming withinChristianity was born.
Rebecca (10:39):
Moving on to the demonisation of sexuality.
Peter 2, 11 Beloved, I urge youso sojourners and exiles to
abstain from the passions of theflesh which wage war against
your soul.
Jayson (10:54):
The demonisation of sexuality, especially within
religion, has not always been soprevalent.
Before people realised that sexand childbirth were linked, it
is suggested that many of thereligions were matriarchal in
nature, celebrating the wonderof women and their ability to
create life.
Even male dominion withinsociety is thought to have only
(11:17):
begun around 12,000 years ago,after the introduction of
agriculture and military with aneed for women to stay at home
and produce more workers andsoldiers.
Rebecca (11:27):
I find it really interesting, like, considering
that there was a time whenpeople didn't realise that,
like, sex and childbirth werelinked at all.
They just thought kids justrandomly happened.
Or probably had, like, ritualsand stuff attached to it was
just like, oh, the ritualworked.
Do you know what I mean?
Jayson (11:47):
Yeah, yeah.
And there was, like, in thatkind of time, there was a lot
more parenting as a group.
Children would all be raisedtogether.
It
Rebecca (12:00):
takes a village.
Jayson (12:01):
Yeah.
And it wasn't until we startedseeing things like land
ownership and the introductionof succession and inheritance
being so prevalent that Itstarted to be important as to...
Rebecca (12:21):
Whose kids were
Jayson (12:22):
who.
Rebecca (12:22):
Yeah.
We'll touch on that a wee bitlater on, but it's hard to
imagine a society where thatisn't seen as as important as it
is today.
Aye.
So looking back to earlyMesopotamia, some 4000 BC, and
the discovery of the true natureof procreation, was when
(12:45):
society first took on paternallineage.
This was the beginning of thepatriarchy, and a much important
link to the rise in the idea ofsexual lust, especially in
women, threatening the statusquo.
Women and their children becameuseful capital, a way of
tracking inheritance, creatingalliances, and holding onto
lands and power.
shame is a powerful deterrentand has been a tool of the
(13:09):
patriarchy and a pathway tocapitalism as we know it today
controlling and oppressingsociety by managing the
distribution and the flow ofwealth religion has played an
important role by not onlygreatly influencing social norms
but by providing a frameworkfor people to live by and
creating consequences to livingoutside this system i think it's
(13:30):
really important when you startlooking at systems and why
things are the way they are islooking at like who they benefit
it's like a really good tool tosee like why these things have
happened and came about and whythey're kind of upheld as much
as they are today
Jayson (13:46):
yeah and i think with this subject in particular there
is a really clear like papertrail of oh this is who benefits
from this yeah going all theway back and this is why things
are structured this way.
Rebecca (13:59):
Yeah and it's clear to see how social norms and the
influence of the people in poweronly go so far and that's why
religion has been so pivotal andespecially in the past to
generally being able to controlmassive amounts of people.
Because it's put in this systemwhere there's forever
(14:21):
consequences as opposed to justlike...
Jayson (14:24):
It's not just like you break the law and you go to jail
and then you're back out.
Rebecca (14:29):
But in these days, you had a roof over your head and
you were fed.
Probably not well, but...
Jayson (14:35):
But having that kind of deterrent of forever, for
eternity, you're going to sufferthe consequences of these
actions.
That's quite a big...
deterrent.
Yeah.
Even if it's I'm not sure if Ibelieve in that but I'd rather
not take the chance.
Rebecca (14:52):
Exactly.
It kind of creates this just incase kind of mentality that I
don't think exists to the same Ifeel like the difference as
well is you could break the lawand not get caught.
Nobody's going out there andcommitting crimes and planning
on going to jail.
There's always the possibilityof avoiding that.
(15:13):
Whereas with something likereligion, God is always
watching.
You're forever on CCTV,essentially.
There's
Jayson (15:24):
no chance of escaping the consequences of your
actions.
Rebecca (15:29):
And it means that you're then controlling what
people are doing in private aswell as public, which is the
difference between that and justregular laws, I would say.
Jayson (15:38):
Yeah, it's this kind of totally pervasive way to exert
control even when there's nochance that there's anybody
watching or any chance ofgetting caught.
There's this guy up in the skythat can see you all the time.
Rebecca (15:52):
Yeah, and he knows all.
Jayson (15:54):
So I've got a quote here from Indian feminist journalist
Nisha Amber.
In almost all organisedreligions, restrictions exist
over a woman's choices over herbody, sexuality, lifestyle,
clothes...
and just about everything.
Sexuality and reproductiverights is especially the problem
area with regard to women.
Almost all religions advocatesexual exclusivity for women
(16:18):
while exonerating men from thesame obligation.
Rebecca (16:21):
So this can also be seen when looking at historical
kings and leaders from the past.
In stark contrast to the rulesseen within their societies at
the time, many male rulersenjoyed a hedonistic lifestyle
with many wives, lovers, Evenwithin the Bible, quote from
David Tyon's podcast.
In the Bible, in the OldTestament, King Solomon, the son
(16:45):
of King David, is recorded ashaving 300 wives and 700
concubines.
If he slept with a new womanevery night, it would take him
two years and almost nine monthsto see each of them at once,
just once.
And that's just one of manyexamples throughout history.
Jayson (17:01):
Aye, there's always existed this double standard.
Rebecca (17:04):
Yep.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Yeah,
Jayson (17:08):
yeah.
Men and women are kind ofoperating off totally different
sets of rules.
As we just heard in that quotefrom Nisha Amber, in all these
different areas of their lives,there is a different expectation
on men versus women.
Rebecca (17:24):
Yeah, and I feel like religion just kind of hammers
that home.
That's true outwith religion aswell, but I feel like, as we've
kind of touched on, religionhas been this tool that kind of
moralises this difference andkind of makes it like justifies
it in a way do you know becauseit always comes down to like man
was created in God's image andlike women in the apple and Eve
(17:47):
and with the help of Augustinethat being a lot more prevalent
and a lot more kind of leaned onas like a moral story to exist
by obviously Nisha Amber'sdiscussing more religion within
India which will be outwithChristianity mostly but this is
just a thing that again it'scoming back to what I'd said
(18:10):
before about when we look atthese systems and who it
benefits the fact that that isdotted and true throughout so
many different religionsthroughout the world is showing
it's true purpose and that it'sless about beliefs and more
about a system of control thathas been utilised literally
everywhere to just perpetuatethe kind of patriarchal system
(18:33):
and keep it functioning.
Jayson (18:34):
This distinction was used as a way to separate the
top 1% who were above the rulesof the masses.
It showed their status andtheir power.
Controlling the lust of therest of the population was a way
to establish order and keepthings stable within the masses.
Controlling sexual exclusivityunfortunately always leads to a
greater focus on controllingwomen.
(18:56):
As time went on, even thearistocracy had to adhere to a
new set of rules regardingsexuality.
Marriages and sex were tools inarranging alliances, gaining
strength and power, as well asconsolidating wealth.
Heirs of dubious inheritancethreatened this system, and thus
women continued to beobjectified.
Their worth and their existencebased on their fidelity and
(19:19):
fertility.
This kept the higher classes incheck, but what of the rest of
society?
This is where patriarchalreligion steps in.
Making lust An adultery or sinallowed there to be not only
societal consequences to lewdbehaviour, but spiritual ones as
well.
We can still feel this shameechoed through society today in
(19:41):
the form of sex, education andsexual topics still having a
taboo nature.
Rebecca (19:46):
I find it really interesting how they've had to
use almost like different toolsto upkeep these rules within the
different classes.
Mm-hmm.
Because for the higher classesthat previously had kind of been
above this rule because of theway that they were existing and
the way they were living theirlife, do you know?
Jayson (20:05):
Aye, like the divine right of kings and all that kind
of thing.
Yeah,
Rebecca (20:08):
yeah, yeah.
As we moved away from feudalismand kind of having just like a
king and more into having likekind of the rich class and the
poorer classes, as kind of hadto adapt over time because there
wasn't this divine right, asyou said, that kind of still
existed within...
It wasn't a scene that peoplethat were rich were chosen by
God to be in these positions inthe way that it had been in the
(20:30):
past and therefore religionstill being used to control the
masses could no longer allowthese people to be with that
system.
Jayson (20:39):
The higher-ups had to start toeing the line
Rebecca (20:41):
as well.
But they understood how itworked and why it was and
therefore it was more aboutreputation and and like holding
on to inheritance and all thestuff that we've kind of
mentioned like it was morepractical
Jayson (20:55):
than it was spiritual.
Ensuring the family line andmaking sure it was still their
family that was
Rebecca (21:01):
I feel like that's a whole other topic but you know
this is something that can stillbe seen today and you're kind
of upper classes who see liketheir bloodline being the most
important and it beingpotentially disturbed by
marrying below their station.
I feel like there's still a bitof that goes on.
Jayson (21:21):
Wealthier people, they tend to be having more children
because they are looking toleave a legacy.
Rebecca (21:29):
That's what drives them to toe the line, as you've
said, and stay within thesystem.
I'm not saying religion isstill prevalent these days, but
I feel like there's still echoesof it.
And the way that the stigma andthe taboo and the shame that
exists within society today,especially surrounding sex, is
this kind of leftover from whenreligion was used as the
(21:54):
framework for people to live by.
So moving on to the sexpositivity movement.
Corinthians 6.18 Flee fromsexual immorality.
Every other sin a personcommits is outside the body.
but the sexually immoral personsins against his own body.
Jayson (22:11):
So there have been many sexual liberation movements over
the last hundred years or so.
As Western society movedfurther from religion and
authoritative ideologies,outdated views around sex and
sexuality began to bequestioned.
Rebecca (22:25):
The sexual revolution was the fight for people's sex
lives to be a source of pleasureand fulfilment, to be more than
reproduction and not just apart of the institution of
marriage.
These previous notions being alarge part of the repression of
homosexuality.
The movement sought to shakefree from sexual repression and
this form of political andsocietal control.
(22:46):
Quote from Elaine Giammi,Sexual Liberation and Sexual
Revolutions.
The sexual revolution was thusbased on the notion that the
struggle for sexual liberationis a powerful political lever
for social emancipation.
So this was another absolutedeep dive for me through all
this because I just found it sointeresting.
(23:07):
It's something that I've heardabout, it's something I've read
about before, but never quite inthe context that researching
for this particular topicbrought me to.
I've always seen that thesexual revolution was fought by
people in the queer community,people in the trans community,
people in the feministcommunities.
(23:29):
They were all standing togetherAnd this brought them all
together to fight for theirrights and fight for their
voice.
But I never thought about whythis particular topic was the
one that brought them alltogether until I started reading
through this and it's beenamazing.
It's been such a wild ride.
Jayson (23:47):
Aye, because if the moral framework is that
everything was to be all sexualactivity was to be contained
within marriage and for thepurposes of reproduction that
entirely excludes anybody thatdoes not conform to a
heterosexual relationship.
Rebecca (24:07):
And even those within a heterosexual relationship that
have no autonomy within thatbecause of these rules.
And that makes total sense.
It's maybe pretty obvious toother people but I just had
never thought about it quite inthat context before.
And it just clicked for me andI totally see why this is a
(24:27):
fight that has been at theforefront of all of these
massive movements throughout thelast hundred years.
It's been great.
Jayson (24:36):
So this movement did not start in the 60s but has become
synonymous with this timeperiod due to both massive
scientific discoveries at thetime and the free love movement.
Medical science began to trulypull away from their previous
allegiance with the CatholicChurch creating more avenues for
(24:56):
people to have sex without anyworry about reproduction.
With availability of thecontraceptive pill through the
NHS in 1961, the revolution waswell underway.
However, when first prescribed,these were only available to
married women in the worry thatthey would lead to sexual
promiscuity.
(25:17):
These discoveries paved the wayfor feminist and LGBTQIA plus
movements to be legitimised inthe name of science and give
them a foundation to fight forlegislative changes.
Free love in and of itself wasthe idea of love free from legal
ties rather than promiscuity asit was expressed in the media.
(25:39):
Sexual battles became acornerstone in the fight for
emancipation.
In 1967...
Abortion became decriminalisedin the UK due to one such
movement by the Abortion LawReform Association, or the ALRA.
The bill made it to Parliamentseven times before it was
passed.
During the same year, the 1967Sexual Offences Act passed in
(26:03):
the UK.
It decriminalised privatehomosexual acts between two men
over 21 in England and Wales.
This act ended.
didn't make its way to Scotlanduntil 1980.
I
Rebecca (26:15):
had never realised it was as late as that.
Do you know, when you thinkabout, like, homosexuality being
illegal, I always think the60s.
Just because I think the 60sand the 70s.
Yep.
But, like, aye, wild.
Jayson (26:29):
Aye, I think Scotland's got this kind of slightly
stronger hold on, like...
Rebecca (26:34):
The kind of religious influence
Jayson (26:36):
and stuff.
Religious suppression of...
Yeah.
sexual stuff.
Things are a wee bit morerepressed here.
It's a wee bit more kind of...
Rebecca (26:46):
Which is so interesting because, you know, Scotland's
paving the way in so many otherways in terms of, you know, it
was the first place that padsand tampons had to be available
in public places for people forfree.
You know, there's things thatwe have been at the forefront of
in terms of women's health thatis quite anti-religion in the
(27:08):
ways that we've discussed, butso behind the times in other
ways, especially when it comesto homosexuality and stuff.
Jayson (27:15):
It's kind of like the modern position is all for the
healthcare aspect of things, butstill quite repressed and
almost shying away from theactual sexual aspect of things.
It's the sexual...
part of things and theenjoyment part of things that's
(27:38):
kind of what makes people a bitnervous a bit sort of
Rebecca (27:42):
I find it really interesting as well this is the
first time I've came acrossabout the free love movement and
the kind of propagandasurrounding it within the media
when I think free love I thinkpromiscuity that is how it has
always been kind of labelled andfed to me over the years the
swinging 60s totally and Infact, it was actually about
(28:05):
freedom from oppression and hasyet again been twisted and
distorted and changed to suit acertain narrative.
Jayson (28:12):
Yeah, that was really quite sort of interesting to
find out that it wasn't, that itwas just, you know, orgies and
swinging and...
Rebecca (28:24):
There was all that going on as well, don't get me
wrong, but it was a politicalstatement doing that, in a
sense, or at least partially.
Yeah.
Which gives it a whole newfucking meaning to me.
Jayson (28:35):
That context has always been missing from anything I've
ever heard about that.
Rebecca (28:40):
It's made me so happy and proud as well that this is
part of the theme for ourupcoming market with Uncensored
and it's just gave it this wholeother lease of life to me that
I wish I had known in going fromthe beginning but I'm
definitely going to be leaningon from now on because it's just
(29:01):
oh chef's kiss like great sogreat so relevant just now as
well with everything that'sgoing on you know people should
be able to just fucking livetheir lives man in every aspect
Jayson (29:15):
yeah aye like the law shouldn't be preventing people
from living their happy lifeyeah
Rebecca (29:22):
and loving whoever they want to love
Jayson (29:24):
yeah
Rebecca (29:25):
including them fucking selves.
So the 60s paved the way forthe rise of sexuality, not only
being a tool for liberation, buta source of personal
empowerment and self-expression.
Throughout the 70s and the 80s,the sexual revolution adapted
and changed, its focus becomingwider and stronger, growing into
an ideology.
Body autonomy, reproductivehealth, women's rights, gay
(29:49):
marriage, acceptance ofpornography and sex work.
people's right to choose whatthey do with their own body and
what life they choose to leadwas at the forefront of the
sexual revolution this latergave way to sex positivity a
term first coined in the earlynineties sex positivity is used
to encompass and openness to avariety of sexual orientations,
(30:11):
interests or lack thereof,identities and expressions.
This was part of a globalchange in attitudes towards
sexuality that had a pivotalmoment in 2002 when the World
Health Organisation updated itsdefinition of sexual health to
include pleasure.
This led to more generalacceptance of joy as a part of
(30:32):
sexual expression.
leading to more open andlight-hearted discussions and
influenced the creation oforganisations with this value at
heart.
Although it's kind ofsynonymous with the 60s, there
(30:54):
was growth in this movement overthe 70s and 80s that kind of
moved up and got to the extentwhere it got a rebrand because
the fights kind of movedelsewhere.
And I feel like this is wherethings started to kind of get a
bit more segregated and splitbetween the different kind of
sects of feminism, of the gayrights movement, of trans
(31:17):
rights.
I feel like all these thingsstarted kind of blossoming into
their own places and spacesrather than kind of sticking
together and fighting as one, aswas kind of necessary to do.
Jayson (31:30):
Aye, because after the sort of initial...
the initial changes that weremade, certain groups' focuses
became more specific and moreniche.
To their own interests.
To their own interests, whichthe other groups...
Well, this
Rebecca (31:46):
is where the TERFs and the SWERFs come in.
As people got more polarisedthrough their different opinions
and views on stuff anddifferent sections of things
started popping up, it has kindof...
rather than the I don't want tocall them the big fights
because there is obviously stilla lot of work that needs to be
(32:06):
done but if you take where we'reat just now in terms maybe
ignoring the last year and ahalf let's say because oh my god
that's a whole other fuckingdiscussion but up until that
point if you took any of theissues that we're facing now and
compared them to where peoplewere in the same position a
hundred years ago They'reunrecognisable for each other.
(32:28):
Absolutely.
And I think that's what's kindof lost a bit of the fire for
some people, not in terms oftheir own things that only
matter and affect them, but interms of the other groups that
are maybe...
I don't know how to word this.
I feel like people feel thatstanding as a group for things
(32:48):
that don't affect you weakensyour claim.
Jayson (32:52):
Yeah, and I think that's all sort of come about with the
way that the opposition hasevolved as well the opposition
has evolved to the way thatthings are spoken about in the
papers and the news it's alldesigned to polarise people and
to segregate them and fragmentthat fight so that they're not
(33:14):
as strong because it's fareasier for them to
Rebecca (33:19):
deal with 5 groups of 20 people than 100 people
Jayson (33:22):
correct and
Rebecca (33:23):
this is why it's something that I feel so
strongly about if you arestanding up for people, stand up
for every fucking vulnerableperson out there because your
voices only matter when they'reloud and all together that's the
only time that we see changehappening and I feel like
(33:45):
looking back through the 60s and70s and 80s we have massive
amounts of evidence for this interms of the amount of change
these people managed to get tohappen by all grouping together
and standing as one and unitingand showing a united front.
Jayson (34:01):
Talking broad strokes, the movement made progress when
everybody was together.
This is the point we're tryingto get.
The status quo has learned ifthey fragment anything that's in
opposition to them, they standa far greater chance of
overcoming it.
Rebecca (34:18):
Especially if those people are in the minority to
begin with.
Do you know where...
a lot of the oppressed groupsare.
That's how that kind of works.
Jayson (34:26):
That's really the importance of them banding
together and supporting eachother's causes, even if they
don't think it affects them.
The power is in being alliesand having allies.
Lending a greater voice to eachand every cause.
Rebecca (34:47):
Which all, at the end of the day, have the same goal.
Which is to get out under thefucking boot of the patriarchy.
Let's argue about how thatlooks after that's happened.
That's always my point.
I'm not saying that peopleshouldn't have their opinions
even if they're wrong.
But like why is that opinionworth more to you than your own
(35:11):
oppression?
And other people's oppression.
This is the bit that gets tome.
If you are really fighting andreally having a voice for
getting rid of the oppression.
Everything else should besecondary to that.
Jayson (35:26):
Aye, absolutely.
Rather than tearing down otherpeople to make yourself feel
better or feel more powerful,raise everybody round you up and
you can squabble about thedetails once everybody's in this
better position.
Rebecca (35:44):
Aye, save it.
Save it for a later date.
Why is that your main focusjust now?
Take
Jayson (35:53):
the big steps and worry about the details after the
fact.
So the sex positivity movementtoday is really centred around
education, self-discovery andembracing the complex,
multifaceted realm of humansexuality.
It's much more generallyaccepted now to the point where
it's becoming a bit of acorporate buzzword like
(36:15):
inclusivity or diversity withbrands trying to appear
sympathetic to the cause.
Moving away from the porn warsof the 70s and 80s, this new
wave of sex positivity iscreating far more frank, open
and honest discussion aroundsexuality.
With that said, the fight isfar from over.
(36:36):
In fact, sex workers and transrights have faced even more
pushback in recent years.
But overall, people are moreempowered by their sexuality.
It's something celebratedopenly, a badge of honour, in a
way that's so different from thelevels of resilience needed to
(36:57):
do the same thing in the past.
At its heart, sex positivity isabout one thing.
Your body is your own.
So on today's episode, we're going to be doing a deep
dive into probably the mostinteresting, at least for us,
deadly sin.
Lust.
Rebecca (00:10):
Lust is an intense craving or desire, often for
sexual pleasure.
It's a primal human driveshaped by culture, religion and
personal experience.
Lust plays a key role in humansexuality.
It fuels attraction, intimacyand pleasure.
and can deepen connection whenexpressed consensually.
Jayson (00:29):
However, its impact goes beyond the personal.
Lust has been both celebratedand condemned throughout
history.
Seen as essential for passionand creativity, but also
labelled as dangerous orimmoral, it's this tension that
makes lust so powerful.
It drives industries,relationships and revolutions,
whilst also sparking fear, shameand control.
Rebecca (00:52):
So segment one, historical perspectives,
starting with religiouscondemnation.
Genesis 4-7.
If you do what is right, willyou not be accepted?
But if you do not do well, sinis lurking at the door.
Its desire is for you, but youmust master it.
Jayson (01:09):
Alright folks, buckle up.
We're diving deep into one ofthe most iconic boners in
theological history.
That's right, we're talkingabout St Augustine, a man whose
teenage shame...
basically invented slut shamingas we know it
Rebecca (01:25):
i had such a field day with this research and i swear
like our friends and family areprobably sick of me talking
about this guy at this pointbecause it's just oh i've just
got totally hooked like i readhis book man we'll get into that
later but oh i've done a deepdive and a half on this one
Very, very interesting.
Jayson (01:44):
Aye, I've seen you squirrel on away spending plenty
of hours just reading and everyso often popping your head up
to give me a snippet of a story.
Rebecca (01:54):
Now, Lust has always been knocking around as a bit of
a biblical no-no, but it didn'treally make the All-Star Shin
Squad until Augustine got hishands on it.
All of this can be
Jayson (02:16):
traced back to one embarrassing moment in his
teenage life.
At 16, his father took him tothe local baths where he
conceivably got a hormonal bonerand wanted the floor to eat him
up.
His dad, rather than ignoringthe scene, proceeded to get
absolutely buzzing that he wasgoing to have grandchildren soon
and proceeded to rush home andtell his wife, Augustine's mum.
(02:39):
His mother, being frightfullyreligious, did not take this
well.
You can imagine how horriblethis must have been for him and
set him on one of the mostinfluential and damaging
journeys in sex, positive ornegative as the case may be,
history.
Rebecca (02:56):
So this was quite an interesting reading that, do you
know, I feel he himself wasn'treligious at this point.
I've left quite a lot of hisstory out just because there was
so much there to speak aboutand discuss and I just thought
it was too much for just asegment in this episode but I'm
(03:16):
sure we will cover him again atsome point because there is a
lot to unpack there.
A lot that I haven't touched.
You can put himself in thisposition here where he's had
this embarrassing thing happenand both these parents...
having reacted in suchdifferent ways have still both
created this kind of almosttraumatising event for him that
(03:38):
he spent the rest of his lifetrying to fix.
Jayson (03:42):
Yeah, I mean if something like that happens to
you at that age all you want isfor everybody to pretend it
didn't happen.
They were both quite extremereactions to that and that kind
of thing would definitely stickwith you.
Rebecca (03:56):
Definitely.
Definitely.
So, while he was not religiouswhen young and rampantly shagged
anything with a pulse, evenstealing pears as an act of
rebellion of God's will, onceconverted, he really struggled
with control over his own needsand felt this was the source of
all the evil in the world.
His penis was quite literallythe source of all the world's
(04:17):
problems.
Jayson (04:19):
Quote, Sometimes it refuses to act when the mind
wills.
while often it acts against itswill.
His strong need and search forbody autonomy, paired with his
15-year-long obsession to takeevery word written in Genesis as
literal, led to his owncreation, the concept of
original sin.
He believed that Adam and Evewouldn't have had sex in the
(04:41):
usual way, but instead, quote,they would not have had the
activity of turbulent lust intheir flesh.
However, but only the movementof of peaceful will by which we
command the other members of thebody
Rebecca (04:55):
don't know why this immediately brings fists into
mind but hey I was speaking toone of your friends about this
and like me and him had such alaugh like thinking about
penises being like totallywithin your control like
elephant trunks like pure beingable to like pick things up and
that like laughed for like fiveminutes genuinely like fucking
peeling bananas and stuff likebut yeah wild.
(05:21):
To kind of speak a wee bitabout the Genesis stuff, like, I
just, I feel like everybodythat I research, I always end up
thinking is pure autism coded.
But like, that for me, youknow, this like obsessive need,
15 years is a long time
Jayson (05:38):
to spend.
Yeah, that's not like
Rebecca (05:40):
a wee side hobby, you know.
This man spent like a decentchunk of his adult life like
trying to make it so that everysingle word in a book could be
taken as literal like he gotreally caught up on there's a
bit in Genesis where they'retalking about Adam and Eve's
eyes being opened for the firsttime three years he spent on
(06:03):
that three years he couldn't getpast it he got stuck on how
they could possibly haveliterally had their eyes closed
up until this moment and yeahit's just wild so interesting so
he believed that god created uswith full control of our
genitals now there's a partytrick his proof of this being
(06:25):
quote some people can even movetheir ears either one at a time
or both together and quoteproduce at will such musical
sounds from their behind withoutany stink that they seem to be
singing from that region so ifind it really interesting that
this is his kind of evidence forthis And that, like, you know,
(06:46):
in order to...
Almost to, like, the mentalgymnastics to make this, like,
not only possible, but true.
And, like, undeniably true.
You know, Bible true.
That, like...
He's just picking on what I canonly assume is stuff he's seen
at like a circus or somethingsomewhere.
Jayson (07:06):
I mean, it very much reminds me of stuff that you
would see on the playground atprimary school.
Yeah, yeah,
Rebecca (07:11):
totally, totally.
Quite a childlike way oflooking at the world.
Yeah, yeah.
Reading about, like, this wasin his book, all these quotes
are from his book, which I don'tthink I said, but...
Aye, clutching at straws.
Clutching at straws.
Jayson (07:27):
Definitely, definitely seems like it.
It's wild how he's...
Do you know, from that kind ofone big embarrassing moment,
he's pulled so much in fromroundabout him in his life to
form this sort of ideology.
Rebecca (07:44):
Yeah.
This is why I thought this wasa really important thing to talk
about and why I found it sointeresting is that, you know,
like, through his teachings andthrough his ideologies and stuff
he has been labelled as one ofthe most influential western
philosophers of his time interms of the kind of effect that
(08:06):
he's had ongoing from totalbutterfly moment and it can all
be traced back to this one veryhuman moment in his life that
he's just spent the rest of thetime trying to almost undo and
make it not his fault, but notGod's fault either, because that
would be blasphemous.
I think this is what's got himreally turned round about, and
(08:30):
like this three-year stint thathe spent on the Adam and Eve
story, that one fact that gotstuck that he couldn't make
true, this is where things havegot so almost wild and out of
proportion to reality, becausehe's had to create and weave
(08:51):
this narrative of it's not hisfault this happened, it's not
his parents' fault thishappened, it's not God's fault
this has happened, it must bejust humanity is wrong.
Jayson (09:01):
Aye, it's all kind of been born out of his desperation
to uphold the values that hesees as important.
So he theorised that onlythrough Eve biting the apple,
lust was discovered.
Quote, they turned their eyeson their own genitals and lusted
after them with that stirringmovement they had not previously
(09:24):
known.
Rebecca (09:24):
Do you often find yourself lusting after your own
genitals?
Jayson (09:27):
I mean, not usually.
Rebecca (09:29):
Not kink shaming, just curious.
Anyway, all of this led him tothe concept that shagging was
the original sin and was so loudabout this that he paved the
way reinventing the Adam and Evestory and bringing it back from
almost obscurity.
The minds at the time were lessconvinced of talking snakes and
magic trees than we are today.
(09:49):
As part of this, he decreedthat any and all sex, even
within a married couple, issinful unless for the purposes
of procreation.
Quote, Amazing how one erectionhas changed the course of human
(10:10):
history forever.
Maybe if his
Jayson (10:21):
dad had sat him down and you know, had the talk.
Human sexuality as we know ittoday would be vastly different,
but instead slut shaming withinChristianity was born.
Rebecca (10:39):
Moving on to the demonisation of sexuality.
Peter 2, 11 Beloved, I urge youso sojourners and exiles to
abstain from the passions of theflesh which wage war against
your soul.
Jayson (10:54):
The demonisation of sexuality, especially within
religion, has not always been soprevalent.
Before people realised that sexand childbirth were linked, it
is suggested that many of thereligions were matriarchal in
nature, celebrating the wonderof women and their ability to
create life.
Even male dominion withinsociety is thought to have only
(11:17):
begun around 12,000 years ago,after the introduction of
agriculture and military with aneed for women to stay at home
and produce more workers andsoldiers.
Rebecca (11:27):
I find it really interesting, like, considering
that there was a time whenpeople didn't realise that,
like, sex and childbirth werelinked at all.
They just thought kids justrandomly happened.
Or probably had, like, ritualsand stuff attached to it was
just like, oh, the ritualworked.
Do you know what I mean?
Jayson (11:47):
Yeah, yeah.
And there was, like, in thatkind of time, there was a lot
more parenting as a group.
Children would all be raisedtogether.
It
Rebecca (12:00):
takes a village.
Jayson (12:01):
Yeah.
And it wasn't until we startedseeing things like land
ownership and the introductionof succession and inheritance
being so prevalent that Itstarted to be important as to...
Rebecca (12:21):
Whose kids were
Jayson (12:22):
who.
Rebecca (12:22):
Yeah.
We'll touch on that a wee bitlater on, but it's hard to
imagine a society where thatisn't seen as as important as it
is today.
Aye.
So looking back to earlyMesopotamia, some 4000 BC, and
the discovery of the true natureof procreation, was when
(12:45):
society first took on paternallineage.
This was the beginning of thepatriarchy, and a much important
link to the rise in the idea ofsexual lust, especially in
women, threatening the statusquo.
Women and their children becameuseful capital, a way of
tracking inheritance, creatingalliances, and holding onto
lands and power.
shame is a powerful deterrentand has been a tool of the
(13:09):
patriarchy and a pathway tocapitalism as we know it today
controlling and oppressingsociety by managing the
distribution and the flow ofwealth religion has played an
important role by not onlygreatly influencing social norms
but by providing a frameworkfor people to live by and
creating consequences to livingoutside this system i think it's
(13:30):
really important when you startlooking at systems and why
things are the way they are islooking at like who they benefit
it's like a really good tool tosee like why these things have
happened and came about and whythey're kind of upheld as much
as they are today
Jayson (13:46):
yeah and i think with this subject in particular there
is a really clear like papertrail of oh this is who benefits
from this yeah going all theway back and this is why things
are structured this way.
Rebecca (13:59):
Yeah and it's clear to see how social norms and the
influence of the people in poweronly go so far and that's why
religion has been so pivotal andespecially in the past to
generally being able to controlmassive amounts of people.
Because it's put in this systemwhere there's forever
(14:21):
consequences as opposed to justlike...
Jayson (14:24):
It's not just like you break the law and you go to jail
and then you're back out.
Rebecca (14:29):
But in these days, you had a roof over your head and
you were fed.
Probably not well, but...
Jayson (14:35):
But having that kind of deterrent of forever, for
eternity, you're going to sufferthe consequences of these
actions.
That's quite a big...
deterrent.
Yeah.
Even if it's I'm not sure if Ibelieve in that but I'd rather
not take the chance.
Rebecca (14:52):
Exactly.
It kind of creates this just incase kind of mentality that I
don't think exists to the same Ifeel like the difference as
well is you could break the lawand not get caught.
Nobody's going out there andcommitting crimes and planning
on going to jail.
There's always the possibilityof avoiding that.
(15:13):
Whereas with something likereligion, God is always
watching.
You're forever on CCTV,essentially.
There's
Jayson (15:24):
no chance of escaping the consequences of your
actions.
Rebecca (15:29):
And it means that you're then controlling what
people are doing in private aswell as public, which is the
difference between that and justregular laws, I would say.
Jayson (15:38):
Yeah, it's this kind of totally pervasive way to exert
control even when there's nochance that there's anybody
watching or any chance ofgetting caught.
There's this guy up in the skythat can see you all the time.
Rebecca (15:52):
Yeah, and he knows all.
Jayson (15:54):
So I've got a quote here from Indian feminist journalist
Nisha Amber.
In almost all organisedreligions, restrictions exist
over a woman's choices over herbody, sexuality, lifestyle,
clothes...
and just about everything.
Sexuality and reproductiverights is especially the problem
area with regard to women.
Almost all religions advocatesexual exclusivity for women
(16:18):
while exonerating men from thesame obligation.
Rebecca (16:21):
So this can also be seen when looking at historical
kings and leaders from the past.
In stark contrast to the rulesseen within their societies at
the time, many male rulersenjoyed a hedonistic lifestyle
with many wives, lovers, Evenwithin the Bible, quote from
David Tyon's podcast.
In the Bible, in the OldTestament, King Solomon, the son
(16:45):
of King David, is recorded ashaving 300 wives and 700
concubines.
If he slept with a new womanevery night, it would take him
two years and almost nine monthsto see each of them at once,
just once.
And that's just one of manyexamples throughout history.
Jayson (17:01):
Aye, there's always existed this double standard.
Rebecca (17:04):
Yep.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Yeah,
Jayson (17:08):
yeah.
Men and women are kind ofoperating off totally different
sets of rules.
As we just heard in that quotefrom Nisha Amber, in all these
different areas of their lives,there is a different expectation
on men versus women.
Rebecca (17:24):
Yeah, and I feel like religion just kind of hammers
that home.
That's true outwith religion aswell, but I feel like, as we've
kind of touched on, religionhas been this tool that kind of
moralises this difference andkind of makes it like justifies
it in a way do you know becauseit always comes down to like man
was created in God's image andlike women in the apple and Eve
(17:47):
and with the help of Augustinethat being a lot more prevalent
and a lot more kind of leaned onas like a moral story to exist
by obviously Nisha Amber'sdiscussing more religion within
India which will be outwithChristianity mostly but this is
just a thing that again it'scoming back to what I'd said
(18:10):
before about when we look atthese systems and who it
benefits the fact that that isdotted and true throughout so
many different religionsthroughout the world is showing
it's true purpose and that it'sless about beliefs and more
about a system of control thathas been utilised literally
everywhere to just perpetuatethe kind of patriarchal system
(18:33):
and keep it functioning.
Jayson (18:34):
This distinction was used as a way to separate the
top 1% who were above the rulesof the masses.
It showed their status andtheir power.
Controlling the lust of therest of the population was a way
to establish order and keepthings stable within the masses.
Controlling sexual exclusivityunfortunately always leads to a
greater focus on controllingwomen.
(18:56):
As time went on, even thearistocracy had to adhere to a
new set of rules regardingsexuality.
Marriages and sex were tools inarranging alliances, gaining
strength and power, as well asconsolidating wealth.
Heirs of dubious inheritancethreatened this system, and thus
women continued to beobjectified.
Their worth and their existencebased on their fidelity and
(19:19):
fertility.
This kept the higher classes incheck, but what of the rest of
society?
This is where patriarchalreligion steps in.
Making lust An adultery or sinallowed there to be not only
societal consequences to lewdbehaviour, but spiritual ones as
well.
We can still feel this shameechoed through society today in
(19:41):
the form of sex, education andsexual topics still having a
taboo nature.
Rebecca (19:46):
I find it really interesting how they've had to
use almost like different toolsto upkeep these rules within the
different classes.
Mm-hmm.
Because for the higher classesthat previously had kind of been
above this rule because of theway that they were existing and
the way they were living theirlife, do you know?
Jayson (20:05):
Aye, like the divine right of kings and all that kind
of thing.
Yeah,
Rebecca (20:08):
yeah, yeah.
As we moved away from feudalismand kind of having just like a
king and more into having likekind of the rich class and the
poorer classes, as kind of hadto adapt over time because there
wasn't this divine right, asyou said, that kind of still
existed within...
It wasn't a scene that peoplethat were rich were chosen by
God to be in these positions inthe way that it had been in the
(20:30):
past and therefore religionstill being used to control the
masses could no longer allowthese people to be with that
system.
Jayson (20:39):
The higher-ups had to start toeing the line
Rebecca (20:41):
as well.
But they understood how itworked and why it was and
therefore it was more aboutreputation and and like holding
on to inheritance and all thestuff that we've kind of
mentioned like it was morepractical
Jayson (20:55):
than it was spiritual.
Ensuring the family line andmaking sure it was still their
family that was
Rebecca (21:01):
I feel like that's a whole other topic but you know
this is something that can stillbe seen today and you're kind
of upper classes who see liketheir bloodline being the most
important and it beingpotentially disturbed by
marrying below their station.
I feel like there's still a bitof that goes on.
Jayson (21:21):
Wealthier people, they tend to be having more children
because they are looking toleave a legacy.
Rebecca (21:29):
That's what drives them to toe the line, as you've
said, and stay within thesystem.
I'm not saying religion isstill prevalent these days, but
I feel like there's still echoesof it.
And the way that the stigma andthe taboo and the shame that
exists within society today,especially surrounding sex, is
this kind of leftover from whenreligion was used as the
(21:54):
framework for people to live by.
So moving on to the sexpositivity movement.
Corinthians 6.18 Flee fromsexual immorality.
Every other sin a personcommits is outside the body.
but the sexually immoral personsins against his own body.
Jayson (22:11):
So there have been many sexual liberation movements over
the last hundred years or so.
As Western society movedfurther from religion and
authoritative ideologies,outdated views around sex and
sexuality began to bequestioned.
Rebecca (22:25):
The sexual revolution was the fight for people's sex
lives to be a source of pleasureand fulfilment, to be more than
reproduction and not just apart of the institution of
marriage.
These previous notions being alarge part of the repression of
homosexuality.
The movement sought to shakefree from sexual repression and
this form of political andsocietal control.
(22:46):
Quote from Elaine Giammi,Sexual Liberation and Sexual
Revolutions.
The sexual revolution was thusbased on the notion that the
struggle for sexual liberationis a powerful political lever
for social emancipation.
So this was another absolutedeep dive for me through all
this because I just found it sointeresting.
(23:07):
It's something that I've heardabout, it's something I've read
about before, but never quite inthe context that researching
for this particular topicbrought me to.
I've always seen that thesexual revolution was fought by
people in the queer community,people in the trans community,
people in the feministcommunities.
(23:29):
They were all standing togetherAnd this brought them all
together to fight for theirrights and fight for their
voice.
But I never thought about whythis particular topic was the
one that brought them alltogether until I started reading
through this and it's beenamazing.
It's been such a wild ride.
Jayson (23:47):
Aye, because if the moral framework is that
everything was to be all sexualactivity was to be contained
within marriage and for thepurposes of reproduction that
entirely excludes anybody thatdoes not conform to a
heterosexual relationship.
Rebecca (24:07):
And even those within a heterosexual relationship that
have no autonomy within thatbecause of these rules.
And that makes total sense.
It's maybe pretty obvious toother people but I just had
never thought about it quite inthat context before.
And it just clicked for me andI totally see why this is a
(24:27):
fight that has been at theforefront of all of these
massive movements throughout thelast hundred years.
It's been great.
Jayson (24:36):
So this movement did not start in the 60s but has become
synonymous with this timeperiod due to both massive
scientific discoveries at thetime and the free love movement.
Medical science began to trulypull away from their previous
allegiance with the CatholicChurch creating more avenues for
(24:56):
people to have sex without anyworry about reproduction.
With availability of thecontraceptive pill through the
NHS in 1961, the revolution waswell underway.
However, when first prescribed,these were only available to
married women in the worry thatthey would lead to sexual
promiscuity.
(25:17):
These discoveries paved the wayfor feminist and LGBTQIA plus
movements to be legitimised inthe name of science and give
them a foundation to fight forlegislative changes.
Free love in and of itself wasthe idea of love free from legal
ties rather than promiscuity asit was expressed in the media.
(25:39):
Sexual battles became acornerstone in the fight for
emancipation.
In 1967...
Abortion became decriminalisedin the UK due to one such
movement by the Abortion LawReform Association, or the ALRA.
The bill made it to Parliamentseven times before it was
passed.
During the same year, the 1967Sexual Offences Act passed in
(26:03):
the UK.
It decriminalised privatehomosexual acts between two men
over 21 in England and Wales.
This act ended.
didn't make its way to Scotlanduntil 1980.
I
Rebecca (26:15):
had never realised it was as late as that.
Do you know, when you thinkabout, like, homosexuality being
illegal, I always think the60s.
Just because I think the 60sand the 70s.
Yep.
But, like, aye, wild.
Jayson (26:29):
Aye, I think Scotland's got this kind of slightly
stronger hold on, like...
Rebecca (26:34):
The kind of religious influence
Jayson (26:36):
and stuff.
Religious suppression of...
Yeah.
sexual stuff.
Things are a wee bit morerepressed here.
It's a wee bit more kind of...
Rebecca (26:46):
Which is so interesting because, you know, Scotland's
paving the way in so many otherways in terms of, you know, it
was the first place that padsand tampons had to be available
in public places for people forfree.
You know, there's things thatwe have been at the forefront of
in terms of women's health thatis quite anti-religion in the
(27:08):
ways that we've discussed, butso behind the times in other
ways, especially when it comesto homosexuality and stuff.
Jayson (27:15):
It's kind of like the modern position is all for the
healthcare aspect of things, butstill quite repressed and
almost shying away from theactual sexual aspect of things.
It's the sexual...
part of things and theenjoyment part of things that's
(27:38):
kind of what makes people a bitnervous a bit sort of
Rebecca (27:42):
I find it really interesting as well this is the
first time I've came acrossabout the free love movement and
the kind of propagandasurrounding it within the media
when I think free love I thinkpromiscuity that is how it has
always been kind of labelled andfed to me over the years the
swinging 60s totally and Infact, it was actually about
(28:05):
freedom from oppression and hasyet again been twisted and
distorted and changed to suit acertain narrative.
Jayson (28:12):
Yeah, that was really quite sort of interesting to
find out that it wasn't, that itwas just, you know, orgies and
swinging and...
Rebecca (28:24):
There was all that going on as well, don't get me
wrong, but it was a politicalstatement doing that, in a
sense, or at least partially.
Yeah.
Which gives it a whole newfucking meaning to me.
Jayson (28:35):
That context has always been missing from anything I've
ever heard about that.
Rebecca (28:40):
It's made me so happy and proud as well that this is
part of the theme for ourupcoming market with Uncensored
and it's just gave it this wholeother lease of life to me that
I wish I had known in going fromthe beginning but I'm
definitely going to be leaningon from now on because it's just
(29:01):
oh chef's kiss like great sogreat so relevant just now as
well with everything that'sgoing on you know people should
be able to just fucking livetheir lives man in every aspect
Jayson (29:15):
yeah aye like the law shouldn't be preventing people
from living their happy lifeyeah
Rebecca (29:22):
and loving whoever they want to love
Jayson (29:24):
yeah
Rebecca (29:25):
including them fucking selves.
So the 60s paved the way forthe rise of sexuality, not only
being a tool for liberation, buta source of personal
empowerment and self-expression.
Throughout the 70s and the 80s,the sexual revolution adapted
and changed, its focus becomingwider and stronger, growing into
an ideology.
Body autonomy, reproductivehealth, women's rights, gay
(29:49):
marriage, acceptance ofpornography and sex work.
people's right to choose whatthey do with their own body and
what life they choose to leadwas at the forefront of the
sexual revolution this latergave way to sex positivity a
term first coined in the earlynineties sex positivity is used
to encompass and openness to avariety of sexual orientations,
(30:11):
interests or lack thereof,identities and expressions.
This was part of a globalchange in attitudes towards
sexuality that had a pivotalmoment in 2002 when the World
Health Organisation updated itsdefinition of sexual health to
include pleasure.
This led to more generalacceptance of joy as a part of
(30:32):
sexual expression.
leading to more open andlight-hearted discussions and
influenced the creation oforganisations with this value at
heart.
Although it's kind ofsynonymous with the 60s, there
(30:54):
was growth in this movement overthe 70s and 80s that kind of
moved up and got to the extentwhere it got a rebrand because
the fights kind of movedelsewhere.
And I feel like this is wherethings started to kind of get a
bit more segregated and splitbetween the different kind of
sects of feminism, of the gayrights movement, of trans
(31:17):
rights.
I feel like all these thingsstarted kind of blossoming into
their own places and spacesrather than kind of sticking
together and fighting as one, aswas kind of necessary to do.
Jayson (31:30):
Aye, because after the sort of initial...
the initial changes that weremade, certain groups' focuses
became more specific and moreniche.
To their own interests.
To their own interests, whichthe other groups...
Well, this
Rebecca (31:46):
is where the TERFs and the SWERFs come in.
As people got more polarisedthrough their different opinions
and views on stuff anddifferent sections of things
started popping up, it has kindof...
rather than the I don't want tocall them the big fights
because there is obviously stilla lot of work that needs to be
(32:06):
done but if you take where we'reat just now in terms maybe
ignoring the last year and ahalf let's say because oh my god
that's a whole other fuckingdiscussion but up until that
point if you took any of theissues that we're facing now and
compared them to where peoplewere in the same position a
hundred years ago They'reunrecognisable for each other.
(32:28):
Absolutely.
And I think that's what's kindof lost a bit of the fire for
some people, not in terms oftheir own things that only
matter and affect them, but interms of the other groups that
are maybe...
I don't know how to word this.
I feel like people feel thatstanding as a group for things
(32:48):
that don't affect you weakensyour claim.
Jayson (32:52):
Yeah, and I think that's all sort of come about with the
way that the opposition hasevolved as well the opposition
has evolved to the way thatthings are spoken about in the
papers and the news it's alldesigned to polarise people and
to segregate them and fragmentthat fight so that they're not
(33:14):
as strong because it's fareasier for them to
Rebecca (33:19):
deal with 5 groups of 20 people than 100 people
Jayson (33:22):
correct and
Rebecca (33:23):
this is why it's something that I feel so
strongly about if you arestanding up for people, stand up
for every fucking vulnerableperson out there because your
voices only matter when they'reloud and all together that's the
only time that we see changehappening and I feel like
(33:45):
looking back through the 60s and70s and 80s we have massive
amounts of evidence for this interms of the amount of change
these people managed to get tohappen by all grouping together
and standing as one and unitingand showing a united front.
Jayson (34:01):
Talking broad strokes, the movement made progress when
everybody was together.
This is the point we're tryingto get.
The status quo has learned ifthey fragment anything that's in
opposition to them, they standa far greater chance of
overcoming it.
Rebecca (34:18):
Especially if those people are in the minority to
begin with.
Do you know where...
a lot of the oppressed groupsare.
That's how that kind of works.
Jayson (34:26):
That's really the importance of them banding
together and supporting eachother's causes, even if they
don't think it affects them.
The power is in being alliesand having allies.
Lending a greater voice to eachand every cause.
Rebecca (34:47):
Which all, at the end of the day, have the same goal.
Which is to get out under thefucking boot of the patriarchy.
Let's argue about how thatlooks after that's happened.
That's always my point.
I'm not saying that peopleshouldn't have their opinions
even if they're wrong.
But like why is that opinionworth more to you than your own
(35:11):
oppression?
And other people's oppression.
This is the bit that gets tome.
If you are really fighting andreally having a voice for
getting rid of the oppression.
Everything else should besecondary to that.
Jayson (35:26):
Aye, absolutely.
Rather than tearing down otherpeople to make yourself feel
better or feel more powerful,raise everybody round you up and
you can squabble about thedetails once everybody's in this
better position.
Rebecca (35:44):
Aye, save it.
Save it for a later date.
Why is that your main focusjust now?
Take
Jayson (35:53):
the big steps and worry about the details after the
fact.
So the sex positivity movementtoday is really centred around
education, self-discovery andembracing the complex,
multifaceted realm of humansexuality.
It's much more generallyaccepted now to the point where
it's becoming a bit of acorporate buzzword like
(36:15):
inclusivity or diversity withbrands trying to appear
sympathetic to the cause.
Moving away from the porn warsof the 70s and 80s, this new
wave of sex positivity iscreating far more frank, open
and honest discussion aroundsexuality.
With that said, the fight isfar from over.
(36:36):
In fact, sex workers and transrights have faced even more
pushback in recent years.
But overall, people are moreempowered by their sexuality.
It's something celebratedopenly, a badge of honour, in a
way that's so different from thelevels of resilience needed to
(36:57):
do the same thing in the past.
At its heart, sex positivity isabout one thing.
Your body is your own.
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