May 23, 2025 • 64 mins
From sacred temples to OnlyFans, brothels to bandwidth, this week we're tracing the provocative — and powerful — history of lust as both taboo and tool. In Part 2 of our LUST deep-dive, Jayson and Rebecca take you on a journey through the rise, repression, resilience, and radical autonomy of sex workers and porn creators throughout the ages.
✝️ Why did sacred sex in the temples of Ishtar terrify early Christians?
🏛️ How did ancient Rome license debauchery — and still shame those who sold it?
💄 What can 19th-century courtesans teach us about power, pleasure, and politics?
📹 And how has porn evolved from illegal stag reels to smartphone saturation — reshaping intimacy, identity, and education in the process?
We explore the liberation and limitations of modern sex work in the digital age, the ethical minefields of porn, the feminist debates, the dangers of censorship, and the rise of amateur, authentic sex content reclaiming intimacy on its own terms.
👁️🗨️ From lust as a deadly sin to lust as survival, art, and protest — this episode peels back the layers on an industry built on desire and demonized by dogma.
Trigger warning: non-consensual sex and sexual exploitation, religious shame and guilt around sexuality, objectification and societal marginalization
Check out our blog article for links to all of our research: https://thesanctuaryofsin.com/blogs/the-sanctuary-of-sin-podcast/e3-lust-the-sin-that-built-an-industry-part-2
🔥 Thanks for joining us in The Sanctuary of Sin! 🔥
If you loved what you heard, show your support by subscribing, sharing, and leaving us a review—it helps more sinners find their way to the sanctuary.
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📧 Got a burning confession, juicy question, or a topic you’re dying to hear us cover? Slide into our inbox at thesanctuaryofsin@yahoo.com – we’d love to hear from you.
Until next time,
Stay curious. Stay kinky. Stay sinful.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rebecca (00:00):
So, moving on to segment two, the evolution of
sex work and pornography.
And of course, starting withsex work.
So, Proverbs 6.25
Jayson (00:19):
So there's a running theory that many of the sins in
the Bible are in directopposition to other religious
practices at the time.
Ishtar, also known as Inannaand later Aphrodite, was the
goddess of a great many things,the most famous being love, war,
fertility and politics.
It's been established byHerodotus that in around 430 BC
(00:44):
she was celebrated in Babylon.
In the histories by Herodotusit was written that her
devotion, quote, compels everywoman of the land to sit in the
temple of Aphrodite and haveintercourse with some stranger
at least once in her life.
Once a woman has taken herplace there, she does not go
away to her home before somestranger has cast money into her
(01:06):
lap and had intercourse withher outside the temple.
It does not matter what sum themoney is, the woman will never
refuse, for that would be a sin.
The money being by this actmade sacred.
So she follows the first manwho casts it and rejects no one.
After their intercourse, havingdischarged her sacred duty to
(01:30):
the goddess, she goes away toher home.
Rebecca (01:32):
I think it's worth noting that Herodotus, through
reading some other bits andpieces that he wrote, came
across as a bit of a racistagainst the Babylonian people.
And I know we want to take awayfrom this story, and I believe
that the kind of rough storythis is true, and that There was
(01:54):
temple prostitutes.
This was a thing that went on.
I don't know if it happenedprobably in the exact way that
he's describing as a kind ofgrumpy man that was going about
and judging literally everythinghe's seen and writing about it
disdainfully as came across insome of the other bits and
pieces I read of his.
Jayson (02:12):
Aye, as with a lot of...
stories from history, you'vekind of got to take things with
a wee bit of a pinch of salt.
Rebecca (02:19):
Think about who is writing it, what their motives
are.
Aye,
Jayson (02:23):
and what the vibe was at the time.
Rebecca (02:26):
Aye.
Sacred prostitution was notonly a form of worship and
devotion, but was highlyrespected and celebrated.
Prostitution, even sacredprostitution, was only a threat
to Christianity and itspotential to tempt people away
to other prominent religions atthe time.
Thus became a So I think thisis really relevant in, again,
(02:50):
what we've been discussing andwhy things have came about.
What purpose have they served?
What problem have they solved?
Jayson (02:58):
If they managed to make people feel guilty or sinful
about having sex, it then wouldpotentially curb people being
tempted to these other maybeseen as more fun religions if
they thought there's eternaldamnation on the line I
Rebecca (03:21):
think this is especially interesting when you
take into the context ofChristianity was not the biggest
religion at this point it waskind of up and coming and it was
how do religions grow throughconversions so they're trying to
tempt people away from theiroutstanding religions I think
(03:42):
this is why eternal damnationwas so at the forefront and why
there were just so many sins outthere.
Through having a wee look intoit, there's something like
640-odd different sins in theBible, which is hilarious.
It would be really interestingto see just how many of them
could be traced back to tryingto recruit more followers.
Jayson (04:08):
It kind of seems as though they went with a
two-pronged attack with this.
They either went down the routeof the teachings or practices
of these other religions aresinful or they appropriated
them.
Rebecca (04:28):
Yeah, totally.
Jayson (04:30):
And that looks different depending on where in the world
you are and what branch ofChristianity was trying to take
over.
that particular area butthere's you know so much
christian tradition is actuallyjust rooted in
Rebecca (04:46):
pagan and yeah
Jayson (04:48):
yeah these these kind of other older uh belief systems
Rebecca (04:54):
because they've had to adapt to where they were like
they've had to let the peoplekeep some of their old
traditions in order for them toconvert do you know like they've
reached a kind of compromise
Jayson (05:04):
ah it's made made the transition much smoother and uh
It's meant less like abruptchange into people's lives.
And people don't generally likea lot of particularly fast
change.
Rebecca (05:18):
Yeah.
But I feel like this is oneexample where, you know, looking
at what we have, it's hard tokind of appropriate prostitution
into Christianity in terms ofthe fundamental values that are
written within it.
Like, adultery and you know allthese things that just don't
(05:40):
sit well i feel like this is abit of a chicken and an egg
situation do you know what camefirst is it like as we say that
these kind of sins came about inanswer to other prominent
religions that existed in theday or is it that these things
haven't been appropriated intochristianity in those places
because they were shitting atsuch
Jayson (06:02):
such odds with christian values
Rebecca (06:04):
yeah yeah It's quite interesting.
It's one of them I think we'llnever truly know, but yeah, it's
interesting to think about.
Jayson (06:13):
Ancient Rome accepted prostitutes and brothels as just
another part of life.
Not only was sex work legal,regulated and taxed, but it
wasn't hidden away from the restof society.
It was commonplace for brothelsor lupinarium, to be on busy,
often prominent streets,decorated with erotic art and
(06:36):
the escort's name and priceswritten in chalk on the door.
People even received a speciallicense, licentious stupri, or
license for debauchery.
However, once a name wasentered on the register of the
ediles, it could never beremoved, becoming a permanent
(06:57):
stain against their name.
Nor were prostitutes solelyfemale.
Men could also work asprostitutes.
Roman society permittedsame-sex relationships between
men without a loss of standingor status and they're widely
documented.
It's a bit crazy to me how somany things that have been part
(07:20):
of the big fights in the lasthundred years were just normal.
They were just a normal part ofeveryday life.
In so many places around theworld.
And then somewhere along theline...
Rebecca (07:33):
I'm like, what happened?
Jayson (07:37):
It's like everybody just lost their minds and decided
fun was off the table.
Rebecca (07:42):
Yep.
Jayson (07:44):
And that people were not allowed to just live as they
want or need to live.
Rebecca (07:52):
Ancient Rome wouldn't have really been Christian,
would it?
Depends when, because thatcovers a massive time period, is
the only thing.
Yeah, so ancient Rome coversfrom 753 BC to 476 AD.
So, like, over a thousandyears.
But
Jayson (08:08):
that's still a good while after Jesus died.
Rebecca (08:11):
Some of it is.
Jayson (08:12):
Yeah.
Rebecca (08:13):
Yeah.
Jayson (08:15):
That's still, like, you know, over 400 years after Jesus
died.
Rebecca (08:21):
Aye, like, some of this was after fucking Augustine.
But maybe they didn't have thesame reach back then.
I feel like that's been a fewlifetimes worth to the place
that it is now.
Yeah, yeah.
Even with the acceptance of sexwork as a vital part of
society, sex workers themselveswere still vilified and shunned.
They were not offered the samerights as other citizens and
(08:43):
could not marry regularcitizens, along with a whole
host of other kind of...
Jayson (08:49):
Right, so it wasn't quite the...
Rebecca (08:51):
The glorified, yeah.
Sex work itself was normalised,but sex workers weren't.
There was still this stigmaattached.
Jayson (09:04):
You could draw quite a direct comparison between that
and porn nowadays, where pornitself is really pretty
normalised.
Most people sort of assume thateverybody watches porn.
Yeah.
But it's fine for everybody touse that service.
(09:26):
If you make porn.
If you make porn.
If you're a porn star or a pornactor, you are seen as dirty
and not worthy of the same kindof level of respect as everybody
else.
Which, I mean, that in and ofitself is outrageous.
(09:50):
You know, vilify people who areproviding a service that's so
normalised and so many peopleparticipate in.
Rebecca (10:00):
And a part of everyday life and not even really
something that's hidden much inthe same way as it was back in
ancient Rome.
Jayson (10:09):
Ancient Rome, really not quite all it was cracked up to
be from that wee cursory
Rebecca (10:13):
glance at the start there.
But I find it interestingthough how some things just
never change.
there is always this like Ithink because sex is still seen
as such a shameful act thoughpeople might utilise that
service they still need someoneto blame for it and it comes
(10:35):
back to this you know it cannaebe themselves it cannae be gods
it needs to be the people thatare providing that service if no
society as a whole which is Ifeel a rabbit hole some people
fall into quite often
Jayson (10:50):
aye it's It's like that old saying, history doesn't
repeat, but it rhymes.
Rebecca (10:56):
Yeah,
Jayson (10:58):
totally.
The same themes pop up time andtime again, and while it might
be over, the issue itself mayhave shifted slightly, the
general kind of theme is thesame.
Rebecca (11:13):
Yeah, people have always been people at the end of
the day, no matter what timeperiod they were existing in.
Jayson (11:19):
Yeah.
Rebecca (11:20):
So, looking forward, in the 19th and 20th centuries,
sex workers weren't justsurviving in the shadows.
Many were thriving assignificant, if controversial,
figures in society.
Women like Cora Perle in Franceor Belle Brasing in America
weren't just providing services.
They were cultural influencersbefore that term even existed.
(11:43):
They were fashion icons, musesfor artists and at times
political players.
Some high-end courtesans couldcommand influence over powerful
men, navigate circles of wealthand power and even set social
trends.
Their lives, while precarious,also afforded them a level of
autonomy, education I thinkyou've hit on there one of
Jayson (12:09):
the key reasons why sex workers in general have it so
hard when it comes to thesystems of authority.
It's the independence that theyare able to gain for themselves
through this work that Is athreat.
(12:31):
It threatens the wholestructure of power.
Rebecca (12:36):
They're living outside the social norms.
They're living outside this boxthat's been so carefully
crafted and constructed andreinforced by all these
different things.
And there's people out therejust pure chilling outside it,
living their best life.
And that cannae be left un...
Jayson (12:57):
Aye, they're kind
Rebecca (12:58):
of...
Jayson (12:59):
the shining example to everyone else that hey by the
way you don't actually need tostay in this box they've told
you you need to stay in and
Rebecca (13:09):
I think this is where things get confused I feel like
there's quite a lot ofcontroversy especially within
sex worker movements themselvesjust from things that i've heard
people speaking about about sexwork being empowering and for
me it is in terms of this stuffrather than over the work itself
when you look at the historyand you know sex workers have
(13:31):
been at the forefront of beingindependent autonomous women in
society holding jobs down when
Jayson (13:39):
when that wasn't allowed
Rebecca (13:40):
yeah like like running businesses owning land you know
doing all these things that likewere so just out of reach for
other women at the time and ifeel like in that way they have
been a shining examplethroughout history of like what
women can achieve like but thisis why they've been so
(14:02):
downtrodden and so oppressedbecause we've got a society
that's trying to shun women andmake women dirty and unclean and
not as capable as men and justinferior to men in general.
And then there's all thesepeople that exist and they're
just showing that up every day.
Jayson (14:21):
Their very existence and their independence is in
protest to the system thatexists round about
Rebecca (14:29):
them.
Whether meant or not.
And I feel like when yourexistence becomes a protest in
that way...
you are vulnerable tooppression, and we've seen that
from a lot of other groups that,you know, have faced the issue
of no fitting into this box,like, and standing out against
it, even just by existing.
No through choice.
Jayson (14:51):
Aye, and the system's so hell-bent on holding onto
control at all costs that...
Rebecca (14:59):
Any deviation from the plan is a threat.
Jayson (15:01):
Yep.
This visibility came withrisks.
Many societies pass moralpurity laws targeting sex
workers specifically.
Despite this criminalisationand stigma, sex workers
organised.
In places like France, workersbandied together to demand
better treatment, healthprotections and legal rights.
(15:21):
In the US, madams often wieldedsurprising local power, helping
to shape cities during periodsof rapid urban expansion.
Rebecca (15:30):
it's inspiring how much power these women held within
the societies they were a partof.
Do you know, that for a job,for a profession, because, you
know, that's not everybody'sfull life.
It's just what they're doing tomake money.
Yeah.
To affect every aspect of yourlife in the way that it does.
(15:51):
I think it must be quitedifficult to not become
politically motivated in thesepositions, at least partially.
Yeah.
Jayson (16:00):
Aye, I think as well when your very existence is so
politicised, that will make itvery challenging
Rebecca (16:10):
to
Jayson (16:14):
not be involved in the political side of it.
Rebecca (16:17):
So sex workers were, and still are, essential threads
in the fabric of socialhistory.
They occupied a complicated butcritical space, marginalised
yet influential, criminalisedentrepreneurial.
Understanding their role duringthese periods reminds us that
sex work has always been aboutmore than just economics.
(16:38):
It's about survival, resilienceand sometimes even radical
autonomy and a world designed tokeep certain people powerless.
Jayson (16:47):
Now, fast forward to today.
We're looking at the modern daysex work.
The digital revolution hastransformed almost every
industry, and sex work is noexception.
Platforms like OnlyFans, caminsights, and online escorting
(17:07):
portals have opened the door forsex workers to operate with
more autonomy than ever before.
Workers can now set their ownhours, market themselves, vet
clients more safely and createincome streams without relying
on potentially exploitativeintermediaries.
Rebecca (17:23):
Access has improved dramatically.
Someone living in a rural area,someone managing a disability
or someone who doesn't feel safeworking in person can now
connect with clients from theirhome.
Digital tools like encryptedmessaging, pre-screening
platforms and online paymentsystems have made huge strides
in reducing some of the dangershistorically associated with sex
(17:46):
work.
Jayson (17:48):
It feels like the playing field has been levelled.
It's far more accessible nowthan it's ever been to people
who...
maybe traditionally thiswouldn't have been an option for
them.
Rebecca (18:07):
Yeah, I think technology has been really good
for sex work in a lot of ways inthat it has made it more
accessible for people.
Making it more bureaucratic assuch has made it like, kind of
easier to kind of keep track ofand vet clients and it kind of
get managed more in, like, acommunity sense and created a
(18:28):
community as well.
Jayson (18:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I think people havingconnections to other people in
the industry is really importantfor their safety.
Totally.
And, you know, being able to...
warn other sex workers aboutpotentially dangerous clients
and things like that is such apositive that's come out of
(18:54):
this, where there are places forthem online to speak.
But it's not all good news.
There's a very real tension.
While technology has made sexwork safer and more accessible,
it's also altered the human,intimate element that so many
workers and clients value.
The screen creates distance,interactions can become
(19:19):
transactional to the point ofdisconnection, many workers
report a growing sense ofisolation, endless DMs, content
demands and algorithm games, butfewer genuine connections.
Plus, platforms themselves canbe fickle and dangerous.
Content can be stolen, accountscan be deleted without warning,
(19:43):
and workers are often at themercy of corporate policies that
they have no say in.
Rebecca (19:50):
I would say as well, one thing that for something
like sex work that kind ofexists in this kind of constant
state and threat of becomingcriminalised, you know, is...
It itself, at least inScotland, is decriminalised, but
everything around it is, soit's quite easy to take a
(20:10):
misstep in that direction withthe kind of grey wording of the
laws and stuff.
Jayson (20:15):
And how old the laws are as well.
It feels as though it's been adeliberate attempt to keep
things ambiguous so that there'sroom to...
Rebecca (20:28):
Make it fit.
Jayson (20:29):
Make it fit, room to...
hurt people when they want to
Rebecca (20:33):
yeah definitely and i think you know having everything
online you then have a papertrail that you wouldn't have
done before um that couldpotentially be used against you
if something like what we'rejust what we had said did come
up or if the law changes
Jayson (20:54):
yeah
Rebecca (20:56):
yeah do you know there's there's all these
platforms that are very much outfor themselves and if things
were to go a certain way there's
Jayson (21:06):
there's no saying what what data would be handed over
to police and do you know whowould be helping with
investigations or whatever
Rebecca (21:15):
yeah so I think like and it is this kind of double
edged sword where do you knowit's made things safer in a lot
of ways but unsafe in others andit's just being aware of that
and how you progress through itAnd keep yourself safe within
that system.
Jayson (21:33):
Aye, it feels as though it's kind of simultaneously
opened the floodgates, but putpeople in a far more precarious
position if things were tochange.
Rebecca (21:44):
Yeah.
And it's the same way, like, doyou know, it's created a
community, or it's added to acommunity.
There was potentially acommunity that already existed,
but it wasn't as, like...
obvious because it wasn'tonline.
It wasn't
Jayson (21:57):
as connected
Rebecca (21:58):
as it can be these days.
Where it could be people fromdifferent countries connecting
in a way that maybe wouldn'thave in the past.
But as more isolating, as moreof the work moves online as
opposed to being in person,which a lot of people prefer.
If that's what's got them intothat line of work in the first
place, the kind of humanconnection and the relationship
(22:20):
building.
Not to say that kind ofhappened online, but there is...
Jayson (22:25):
It's much like what we saw throughout COVID, where
people were isolated fromfriends and family but were able
to do more things like FaceTimeand video calls, Zoom, Skype,
whatever.
Rebecca (22:39):
All the quizzes, oh my god.
Jayson (22:42):
So there was still this vast interconnectedness, however
it was because you were missingthat in-person physical contact
and being able to actually seeand touch and hold the people
that you love.
Rebecca (23:01):
Yeah.
Jayson (23:03):
you felt so disconnected.
So, like, do you know, Ireally, I can empathise with
that situation.
I think it's one that so manymore people kind of are more
familiar with now since COVIDand all kind of having that
experience.
Rebecca (23:23):
So ultimately, whether on the cobblestone streets of
19th century Paris or in theinfinite scroll of today's
OnlyFans feeds, sex workerscontinue to show us what
resilience, adaptation andsurvival truly look like.
Jayson (23:38):
Pornography.
Matthew 5.28 But I say to youthat everyone who looks at a
woman with lustful intent hasalready committed adultery with
her in his heart.
When we think about pornographytoday, it's almost impossible
to separate it from technology.
From glossy high-productionfilms to the endless stream of
(24:00):
clips on your phones.
But to understand how we gothere, we need to go back.
Way back.
Rebecca (24:08):
The word pornography actually comes from the Greek
porne meaning prostitute andgraphene meaning to write.
Originally it wasn't about filmor pictures at all.
It referred to any artwork orliterature depicting the lives
of sex workers.
Today of course we mainlyassociate it with visual media,
videos, photos and increasinglyuser generated content.
Jayson (24:32):
The history of visual porn is almost as old as film
itself.
In 1896, the very first motionpicture was publicly shown.
And less than a year later, wehad the first erotic one.
A seven-minute short called LeCouché de la Mariée, or Bedtime
for the Bride.
(24:52):
It showed a woman undressingfor bed while her groom peeked
from behind a screen.
The very next year, we got thefirst on-screen kiss.
the famous 18-second Mary Irwinkiss.
This tiny moment sparkedoutrage, particularly from the
(25:13):
Catholic Church, which demandedcensorship and moral reform.
At the time, public kissingcould actually get you arrested.
I
Rebecca (25:21):
didn't even know that we had motion pictures from
before the 1900s, never mindthat they were at the stage of
being publicly shown in 1896.
Yeah, I
Jayson (25:32):
mean, we've even spoken to...
see your grandparents and stuffand they were under the
impression that the first filmsand things were the 1920s.
So It's wild to think how farback that actually goes.
Rebecca (25:49):
Yeah.
Like, that was certainly whenthey were popularised.
Yeah.
At least, do you know, inBritain and stuff, because this
was in France, and I think theywere one of the first places to
kind of hold these public showsand films before anywhere else,
but still, it's wild.
It's mad to think it took,like, nearly 30 years before it
(26:09):
was kind of...
As widespread and as popular,yeah.
Yeah.
Things move so much quicker nowthan they did back then in
terms of new technology.
Aye.
Aye.
Like, it's wild to think whatadvances there's been for, like,
97 until now, for example,compared to then.
Jayson (26:33):
Aye, the rate of advancements is getting so much
quicker.
Rebecca (26:38):
Yep.
Wild to think that publickissing was, like, illegal back
then as well.
Jayson (26:44):
Aye, that's...
Rebecca (26:46):
And then people showed it on a stage, which is wild.
Cheeky.
Jayson (26:52):
Aye, that seems like quite an inflammatory thing to
do.
Rebecca (26:56):
I'm surprised they didn't get arrested at the time,
if that was the case.
Jayson (27:02):
Aye, it shows you just quite how firm a grip the sort
of morality police had at thistime that Even that was wild for
the time.
So whilst that caused such anuproar, you've got then in the
(27:26):
background this almostunderground movement of erotic
film.
I imagine if that was widerpublic knowledge, the outcry
would have been...
unbelievable
Rebecca (27:42):
yeah well we know how bad it was in the fucking 80s do
you know what i mean never mindback in the early 1900s like
this was like victorian timeslike people were you know if we
if you think we're prude newlike despite pushback erotic
filmmaking grew early 20thcentury companies around the
(28:03):
world started producing shortstag films as they were known
mostly for wealthy, upper-classmen who could afford to import
these clandestine works.
Leading the way were the Pathébrothers, who eventually moved
operations to Argentina to dodgecensorship from the French
government.
Brothels in Buenos Aires becamehubs for early porn
(28:25):
distribution across Europe.
One of the oldest survivingtrue pornographic films, El
Citario, or The Devil, wasfilmed in Argentina around 1907.
And if you're curious, the fullthing is also up on Wikipedia.
Jayson (28:40):
So you had a rewatch of the clip that's available on
Wikipedia, didn't you?
Rebecca (28:47):
I did.
I did.
It was...
It was wild, to be quitehonest.
I was not...
Do you know, this being fromthe time period when it was, I
was not expecting it to...
It was in black and white,obviously, and it was quite old,
so it had quite a lot of kindof...
disruption and stuff over thetop of it.
Like, some, like, static andthat.
(29:08):
But, outwith of that, if you'dtold me that was, like, for the
80s or something, I would havebelieved you.
Not that I've watched an awfullot of 80s porn, but just in
terms of...
I didn't feel over 100 yearsold.
I kind of started off with,like, three women, like, naked,
like, kind of chasing each otherabout and washing each other in
(29:29):
a stream.
And...
kind of chasing each otherthrough a forest and skipping
and dancing about in a kind ofcircle holding hands and because
there were three of them andthe thing was called the devil I
was kind of expecting this tobe like a kind of witchy
summoning circle vibe justbecause it made sense those are
(29:54):
the tropes yeah those are thetropes but then another three
women came along all naked aswell and I was like where is
this thing going And then, thenext minute, the devil appears.
Now, in the Wikipedia entry,he's described as, like, a faun.
And I feel like that suitsbetter what this looked like.
Jayson (30:16):
Rather than, like, the devil as we know.
Rebecca (30:18):
Yeah, rather than, like, or even, like, the name of
the thing.
But, oh, it had such mightybush energy.
It was, like, the full, like,paper mache nose.
You know, like, the cheap,like...
plasticky no even the plasticwasn't even vented at the time
so like i don't know what theyused but like the cheap kind of
like fur like fabric like stuckto the face is like a beard um
(30:43):
and like the horns of course andhe's like pure like villain
like creeping like with the armsyou know the creepy arms like
through the forest and likerunning around the trees and
stuff um and then like startschasing the lassies down and one
of them like falls and thenthey like pounces on her and
then they're like straight intolike her genome heed and like
(31:03):
full 69 like full pnv like itwas like proper like zero to 60
like sounds like quite
Jayson (31:10):
pretty like modern modern
Rebecca (31:13):
porn sort of quite explicit quite what you would
expect from porn Regularly,like, I don't know why I was
expecting, like, Victorian eraporn.
Aye, this just wasn't what Iwas expecting at all.
Like,
Jayson (31:25):
yeah.
It sounds like there's a lot ofthroughlines from this to
modern porn.
Rebecca (31:32):
Aye, like, it doesn't seem to have changed or adapted
all that much.
Jayson (31:37):
Aye, the cameras have got better.
Rebecca (31:41):
There was points where it was cutting from them being
in the forest to, like...
them being in a barn but Idon't know if this was because
this wasn't like the full clipit was only like nine minutes
long so I don't know if therewas maybe more to the story that
kind of had been cut out overtime but all the way throughout
it, he was trying to stick hisfingers up her arse, and she was
(32:04):
batting his hand away.
And it was one of them, I waslike, is this part of the story,
or do you think this is whatwas actually happening?
Jayson (32:12):
This guy's actually just been a bit of a lech.
Rebecca (32:16):
Because, you know, either could be true, but I
don't know, I wonder if, like,even then, you know, anal was
maybe, like, a wee bit too far,but, like, a wee hint of, like,
it being potentially was, like,titillating enough to be, you
know, like, part of the show.
Ah, it was being a bit edgy.
Being a bit edgy without, youknow, going over into, like, too
(32:40):
far territory, potentially.
Yeah.
I, 69 in 1907, own film in aforest in Buenos Aires with
Argentinian prostitutes was nothow I thought I was going to be
spending my Tuesday morning.
But, yeah, wild.
Another wee factoid that Ididn't necessarily write loads
(33:07):
about but I found reallyinteresting was obviously the
Pathé brothers.
Through looking up some stuffabout them, I came across the
kind of symbol for their companyand was like, hold on, I've
seen that a million times.
What is this company?
Jayson (33:20):
You showed it to me and I instantly recognised it and
started listing out films.
I'm like, I've seen that.
You see that at the start ofthis film and this film and this
film.
Rebecca (33:32):
And we had to look into it, or I had to look into it at
the time and then showed you.
and they are like a filmdistribution company who have
worked with many famous namesmost notably and recently being
Warner Brothers for like the UKand Europe distribution films so
they've done like Chicken Runthey've done so many horror
(33:54):
films like they did like TheDescent what was some of the
other ones?
Jayson (34:00):
Chicken Run was the big one that was one I watched quite
a lot as a child and
Rebecca (34:05):
because it was like a yellow chicken with Pathy above
it that's their symbol and thatwas like I was like I'm sure
that was in a chicken film andwhen you said chicken run I was
like because I remember as a kidbeing like oh it's a chicken
like before it even started butyeah they started in porn they
ran like one of the mostsuccessful like initial first
(34:26):
porn production companies in theworld
Jayson (34:29):
they must have really done quite well to end up where
they have today
Rebecca (34:33):
yeah
Jayson (34:35):
I wonder how common knowledge that is, that part of
their company history, evenwithin the company itself, or if
that's something they shy awayfrom.
By the 1920s, silent porn filmswere pretty widespread, but
also illegal to possess in manyplaces.
It wasn't until the culturalrevolutions of the 1960s that
(34:58):
attitudes began to shift.
Mainstream movies pushed theenvelope.
A Swedish film called I AmCurious Yellow, where a woman
kisses her lover's flaccidpenis, caused massive
controversy, even getting bannedin Massachusetts.
But when the courts overturnedthe ban, it paved the way for
(35:19):
more sexually explicit media toenter the mainstream.
Denmark led the charge in 1969by abolishing all censorship
laws, including those againsthardcore pornography.
The Netherlands quicklyfollowed, and this sparked a
boom in porn production, withfilms smuggled across Europe to
meet the growing demand.
Rebecca (35:41):
I wonder what they would have made of Game of
Thrones back then.
Which, to be fair, the peniseswere still all flaccid, as far
as I can remember.
I feel like that's a thing.
It's allowed as long as it'snot hard.
Even now, there's still a bitof...
That's too sexual at
Jayson (36:00):
that point.
It's quite amazing to seecomparing modern day mainstream
television and just how much sexit's kind of just about shown
(36:21):
in modern television and that'sfine and normal but going back
to you know the 60s we'retalking like outrage
Rebecca (36:32):
i wonder right if this is part of because do you know
in the 60s most of the timepeople were going to go and see
films when they first came outwas in the pictures and it's not
to say that that doesn't stillhappen today but a lot more
media, like Game of Thrones isan example of that, is mostly
just seen in people's homes.
(36:53):
And it's one of theseout-of-sight, out-of-mind things
where people aren't reacting toviewing this in a crowd of
their peers.
Jayson (37:02):
Yeah, it's a bit more, do you know, I think especially
with British prudishness, it's atotally different thing to be
watching this on your own or in
Rebecca (37:18):
your
Jayson (37:19):
living room versus in a public place with a crowd of
people that you don't know andthen you're supposed to kind of
keep up this
Rebecca (37:27):
I like react how they react kind of thing
Jayson (37:30):
I sort of play the
Rebecca (37:32):
compliance game
Jayson (37:34):
yeah
Rebecca (37:36):
it's interesting I feel like there's definitely
something to be said for thatThen came the 1980s and the rise
of home video.
Suddenly, you didn't have to goto a sleazy theatre to watch
porn.
You could do it from yourliving room.
Porn became more accessible toboth consumers and creators.
Low budget and amateur filmsflourished.
(37:57):
Niches and fetishes that wereonce marginalised became easier
to find.
The era of the big budgettheatrical porno was coming to
an end.
So you can imagine before this,the reason why porn was so big
budget was because all filmneeded to be big budget in order
(38:19):
to exist.
The time and dedication it tookfor them to take and develop
all those individual film reelsand edit them by hand, cut all
the frame by frame pieces outand stick them back together the
amount of craftsmanship andwork and time and labour that
(38:39):
went into creating a film.
And the equipment.
And all the equipment as well.
It was outwith the everydayperson's capabilities to do.
Unless they were really, reallyinto it and it was their thing.
The amount of money and timeand effort that would need to go
in to actually being able toset up a TV studio for porn or
(39:02):
otherwise was really outwith thecapabilities of the general
public at that time.
But with the 80s came in notonly videos but also camcorders
and the ability for people tojust make and record films at
the touch of a button.
Jayson (39:22):
Aye, so this was like another big step in the
democratisation of technology,putting it into the hands of a
broader range of people thatwouldn't have otherwise had
access to those kind ofcapabilities and who don't have
(39:43):
the technical expertise to beworking on that higher-end, kind
of high-budget film productionquality stuff.
Rebecca (39:52):
So that's just generally led to there being a
big surge in porn.
Yeah.
And the demand for it was therealready.
And if anything, grew at thispoint because people weren't
having to go and put themselvesat risk by going to a theatre or
something.
It was something that theycould order from a magazine and
get directly to their house.
Aye, no have to actually puttheir face to
Jayson (40:18):
it as such.
Aye, it was a lot less...
A lot more limited...
Interactions had to...
Had to happen.
Rebecca (40:29):
Yeah.
Jayson (40:29):
There was less steps between you and porn.
Rebecca (40:31):
And, like, I'm not being funny.
Fuck wanking in a room full ofother people.
Like, that...
I
Jayson (40:36):
think they had little booths.
Rebecca (40:38):
They had little booths.
But even then, like, thenoises.
Like, oh, I feel...
I feel like that would beenough to
Jayson (40:48):
put you on.
Aye, and I think the fear wouldbe getting...
Getting spotted as you're onyour way
Rebecca (40:52):
in or out.
And I'm not being funny.
Like, they're probably...
if a woman was to show up atone of these places, it would
probably be...
They probably wouldn't have avery good time with the
attention that they would get, Iwould imagine, in that
situation.
These places probably wouldhave mostly been filled with
men.
Yeah.
(41:12):
Like, yeah.
It would have made it not feellike a safe place to go as a
woman.
Or anybody of any genderoutwith.
Kind of just...
cis men.
Or probably cis white men,let's be honest.
Jayson (41:28):
Yeah.
The next technological leap,the internet, changed everything
again.
No longer did you need todiscreetly order DVDs or
magazines or videos.
Porn was now just a few clicksaway.
This new digital access was adouble-edged sword.
While it made porn moreavailable than ever, it also
(41:51):
decimated the traditional pornindustry.
Piracy, amateur uploads, andindependent creators undercut
major studios, allowing massivestreaming platforms like Pornhub
to dominate.
I mean, this is just like afurtherance of the
democratisation.
It's putting things more andmore into the hands of everyday
(42:15):
people.
Where, you know, not everybodymaybe would have had a
camcorder.
Once we're into the age of theinternet and smartphones, pretty
much everybody has asmartphone.
They're kind of essential formodern life.
Rebecca (42:33):
Yeah.
The amount of places you gothese days and you have to scan
QR codes to even order food orsign into places and stuff is
wild.
I don't know how anybodysurvives without a smartphone
these days.
Aye.
Very difficultly.
But yeah, I find it reallyinteresting that the porn
(42:59):
industry has had such arollercoaster over the course of
its beginning until now.
And reading that, it makes itquite unbelievable that there is
still massive porn companiesthat exist out there that are
still managing to survivedespite how much essentially
(43:20):
free porn exists on the internetthese days.
I think that goes to show justhow much that kind of personal
connection is still such a bigpart of people's consumption of
porn in terms of like OnlyFansand people being quite loyal to
certain porn stars and certainporn production companies that
(43:42):
they are willing to go and payand support them in that way
when they could just watch...
It's not just about it beingporn.
There's still some form ofemotion involved in it, in that
sense.
Or at least that's what Ithink.
Jayson (43:59):
I'm actually like emotion and personal preference
and things.
There is so much out there thatpretty much everybody's got
their preferences covered.
There's
Rebecca (44:17):
Aye, I think that's one good thing that has came out of
it, is that it's notnecessarily been decided by five
groups of people that own thebig porn production companies.
There is a lot more niche and alot more fetish stuff and that
out there.
Jayson (44:35):
Aye, and it's sort of the market kind of dictates the
demand for certain things Isthere.
So then whoever is filling thatparticular niche the best or in
(44:59):
particular ways then succeeds.
Rebecca (45:01):
Yeah.
It's created more like acompetition in that way.
Jayson (45:05):
Yeah.
Rebecca (45:06):
Yeah.
So moving on to the nextsegment.
Challenges within porn.
So with growth comes growingpains.
Yeah.
The porn industry faces seriouschallenges, ones we still
struggle with today.
So we actually watched adocumentary a few months ago
(45:53):
called Is Anyone Up?
which was covering a revengeporn site called isanyoneup.com
that was quite big in the early2000s into the 2010s where
cutting a long story short itturned out the premise of the
(46:13):
site was that people would besending in videos and pictures
of their exes as revenge it wasliterally they had no...
weren't hiding what they wereabout like it was a revenge porn
site specifically but throughsome investigation by a lot of
different people um because theypissed a lot of folk off with
(46:35):
this obviously they upset anddamaged a lot of people um it
turned out that they had beenhacking into people's emails and
taking pictures and videos fromtheir phones without their
consent and uploading themthemselves to the site to ensure
that there was this constantfeed of of content all the time
(46:55):
regardless of whether peoplewere sending things in or not
and i don't know it was that onitself obviously was horrible
but it was quite nice in a wayto to know that they were having
to do that because even thoughpeople were maybe outwardly like
supporting them and that theyweren't necessarily getting A
lot of people that were engagingin that behaviour.
(47:16):
The engagement wasn't there
Jayson (47:18):
enough that they had to fake their own engagement.
Yeah.
Rebecca (47:24):
It put a wee bit of faith in humanity back in me,
watching that.
Because it was massive.
There was so much content onthere to think that all these
women...
Obviously, I'm not saying itwasn't so damaging to them, like
it was horrible what happened,but it wasn't...
through people that they caredabout and trusted that were
(47:44):
doing this to them.
Jayson (47:46):
Which makes it mildly better.
It was like an outside attackthat was leaving them vulnerable
to this.
So even sites like Pornhub havecome under fire for their lack
of moderation.
With millions of videos beinguploaded, how do they ensure
every performer actuallyconsented?
how do they police stolencontent
Rebecca (48:07):
yeah i feel like this is something that comes up a lot
you know i i personally totallysupport sex workers i totally
support content creators i'm inno way saying that this industry
is a bad one i just like whenyou have sites that are so
popular like how how are theyhiring enough people to actually
moderate what is on their siteand i think this comes down to
(48:30):
even within the porn industryitself do you know how many
clips are on Pornhub that aresupposed to be paid for clips
that have been pirated andstolen and uploaded by people in
order to circumvent thepaywalls that exist for a reason
so that the performers get paidwhat they're due.
It in and of itself and the waythat it's moderated is harmful
(48:54):
not only from an exploitationpoint of view in terms of people
that are getting stuff postedwithout their consent but also
in terms of the professionalsthat are having their
livelihoods stolen by stuffgetting taken from paid for
platforms and put on a freestreaming site.
(49:15):
Feminist perspectives on pornremain divided.
Some argue that porn can beempowering, a way to reclaim
agency and express sexuality.
Others see it as perpetuatingharmful stereotypes, reinforcing
a male-gaze driven vision ofsex that leaves out emotional
connection, consent, diversityand real bodies.
Jayson (49:36):
Another huge problem, porn as sex education.
Because formal sex ed is soterrible or missing altogether,
many people's first exposure tosex comes through porn.
Especially when it comes tokink and BDSM.
Porn often represents a fantasyversion that leaves out
(49:57):
negotiation, consent, aftercareand emotional safety.
It's fantasy, not a tutorial,but not everyone learns that
distinction.
Rebecca (50:08):
This is something, you know, I feel even I've been
guilty of in the past wheregrowing up, and we kind of
touched a wee bit on this in ourfirst episode, where our
introduction to this way of lifehas been through things like
porn and erotica and other formsof media that don't give a true
representation of what actuallygoes on and it's one of the
reasons why in that respect Iwill always be an advocator for
(50:31):
like going to munchies going toevents like getting involved in
the kink community because It'snot to say that people are not
able to do research and pick upthese things by themselves,
but...
Jayson (50:43):
But you miss that context that's there in real
life.
Rebecca (50:47):
Seeing it in person just gives you a totally
different understanding, whichis why so many people do turn to
porn as sex education, asopposed to the more practical
knowledge that we're given inschool.
It doesn't give you a clearpicture.
You could...
do the research like we havebeen given but it's not like a
(51:08):
true representation of howthings how easier it is to pick
up things watching what's goingon and in this case watching
something that's not real goingon and picking up bad habits
from
Jayson (51:22):
so many of the positions and like camera angles and
things that are used in porn isto make it like as visually
appealing or as clear what'sgoing on as possible.
And for most people, those arenot realistic things to be doing
(51:43):
in the bedroom.
Rebecca (51:44):
They're not going to give you the most pleasure out
of something.
Yep.
Because they're designed tolook good rather than feel good.
Absolutely.
And there's a massivedistinction between the two when
it comes to actually havingsex.
Jayson (51:57):
So our next segment is The Rise of Amateur Porn.
One of the most exciting shiftshappening today is the rise of
amateur porn.
Amateur content, real people,real bodies, real sex is
booming.
Sites like MakeLoveNotPorn areworking to bring love,
(52:17):
authenticity and humanconnection back into the
portrayal of sex.
Rebecca (52:21):
Honestly, I've been meaning to buy a few videos from
there, partly from research,but also because it's such a
refreshing change from thescripted, over-the-top stuff
that still dominates mainstreamporn.
The whole concept behind thesite and why I thought it was
worth speaking about issomething that I've been kind of
keep going on and having a lookand not really delved into, but
I feel like it's something thatI'm going to do and will
(52:42):
probably have a real dig in toit at some point is amateur porn
but the whole point in it isthat you set the camera up and
forget it so rather than itnecessarily being about video
and the visual side of sex likevideo and the connection and the
intimate side of sex and thatyou're trying to capture a
(53:04):
moment and forget about thecamera rather than trying to
capture a scene with the cameraas such for wanting a better way
to describe that They'veprobably put it much better on
their site.
I don't know the concept.
I've been thinking about it formonths since I've first seen
it.
It seems so healthy in such anicer way and a better way of
(53:30):
making porn.
In the terms of sex education,for example, where you're not
then having to go to a playparty.
to see people being intimatewith each other.
I think it's such a refreshingviewpoint, getting to actually
see intimacy over getting to seeacting.
And the two definitely havetheir place and I'm not saying
(53:50):
that one's necessarily betterthan the other.
They both serve differentpurposes and serve different
people because everybody hastheir own preferences.
But for me, I really strugglewith watching quite a lot of
porn because I find it quitefake.
and quite over the top quite alot of the time especially like
(54:12):
in terms of like the kink andBDSM stuff like it's always
really mild or really extremelike I feel like there's really
a missing part somewhere downthe middle that's more real and
less like either very veryprofessional and strict or
people who are playing about andtrying some kinky stuff rather
(54:35):
than it being BDSM.
Jayson (54:37):
Yeah.
You've kind of got it almostbeing used as an aesthetic.
Rebecca (54:43):
Yeah.
Jayson (54:45):
Or the really, really extreme end.
Rebecca (54:49):
Which has its moments, don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying that that's notsomething that I enjoy, but I
feel like sometimes I'm missingthat intimacy.
Jayson (54:58):
You've got the sort of content that almost as kind of
just using Kink and BDSM as anaesthetic choice.
Without necessarily it reallyshowing what a dynamic looks
(55:19):
like or without it being anactual scene.
And then you've got on theother end kind of quite quite
extreme, like, tends to be quitehigh protocol, like, some
pretty intense stuff that,whilst both are good, both are
(55:41):
good and serve a purpose forcertain people, I don't feel
like either gives, like, areally good true representation,
sets healthy expectations forpeople in real relationships and
people who are looking to getinto real BDSM real BDSM
(56:04):
relationships I find that it'swhat exists can be kind of
damaging and set people up tofail almost
Rebecca (56:17):
It is a fantasy at the end of the day and I feel like
that can get lost in translationquite easily So just for the
people at home High Protocol isa more authoritative style of
BDSM that kind of adheres toreally strict rules, really
strict power play dynamics wherethere tends to be rules and
(56:45):
consequences and rewards andthere's more of a hierarchy
involved than there can be inother BDSM dynamics.
It tends to be more kind oftraditional, I would say, in
terms of what we're describing.
I feel like this is why it'sshowcased in porn quite a lot.
(57:07):
It tends to be what peoplethink of when they think of BDSM
because it can look moreextreme and therefore tends to
be more sensationalised withinmedia and it tends to be what is
shown.
and when it's represented inmedia a lot of the time.
Jayson (57:24):
Yeah, and for me personally, I found not
necessarily the actions, but thenature of the dynamic itself
and the expectations that that'sit to be the kind of
unrealistic part.
Because, you know, seeing thatand thinking, oh, that's how a
(57:45):
dom has to behave.
That's how a sub has to behave.
There has to be...
rules and consequences and...
Rebecca (57:52):
For every little thing, like, not always, but it tends
to be very pervasive, veryall-consuming, and not
necessarily something that couldbe easily held up 24-7, you
know, in terms of...
Aye, it tends to be, like, andevery single little thing is
(58:15):
laid out and mapped and...
Jayson (58:17):
As a kind of beginner...
that feeling is veryoverwhelming going into a
dynamic thinking that these arethe expectations.
That
Rebecca (58:25):
that's what you need to live up
Jayson (58:26):
to.
Rebecca (58:27):
When there's actually a million different ways to do
BDSM and that is one part of it.
And I don't know that it...
I feel like it is unhealthy forthe majority of people to try
and reach that point.
Because it's not everybody'sthing.
And it doesn't need to be.
I think...
That was a pitfall I fell intoa lot in the beginning where I
(58:51):
felt if I wasn't doing that thenI wasn't doing enough and felt
very like kind of impostersyndrome and very inferior and
like am I going to be capable ofthis and that needed to be the
goal that I was working towards.
Jayson (59:03):
It can lead to a lot of insecurity.
Rebecca (59:05):
Yeah and that's the unhealthy bit.
It's not the thing in of itselfwhich loads of people that is
their thing and that's what theydo and that's totally fine and
normal if that is what they wantand what they enjoy but You
don't need to enjoy that toenjoy BDSM.
Jayson (59:22):
I feel like as you're growing up you hear people
saying things like what you seein porn is not real life.
That's not how things actuallywork in real life.
Or like sex that you see inporn is not a true
representation.
It is a fantasy.
(59:42):
But I find that that sort ofcontext is missing on the BDSM
side of things because the onlyportrayals that I certainly was
aware of growing up and stuffwas of that style so there's not
(01:00:04):
then that kind of expectationof oh that's just a fantasy,
that's the kind of fantasyversion of this yeah which I
think kind of allows room forunhealthy expectations to grow
Rebecca (01:00:21):
I think it's quite easy when you're grown up you know
you're told like as you've saidthat porn that's not like a true
representation but I think withthe period as being neuro spicy
and no taking the thing and ohit's different like different
situations that can apply to forme when I got told that I'm
like right that's true ofvanilla porn like I didn't
(01:00:42):
necessarily think that that wasthe case for all porn and as
you've said you know growing upand not really having a lot of
like things that represent howyou feel that was the closest
and only thing it makes sensethat that would then you would
take that on yeah you know asbeing what your goal was what
(01:01:02):
your aim was going forward and ithink kind of circling this
back this is where amateur porndefinitely comes into its own
and that i feel like that iswhat is filling in this middle
point because it's filling aniche
Jayson (01:01:21):
that
Rebecca (01:01:22):
isn't covered by mainstream porn.
Jayson (01:01:25):
And it's also helping to fight back against harmful
stereotypes about bodies andbeauty standards and
sexualities.
It's there to remind us thatsex isn't just about performing,
it's about
Rebecca (01:01:40):
connecting.
that that is sometimes missingfrom kind of mainstream porn so
there's even a running joke ontiktok about how conservative
women are basically wearing pornstar makeup this was a few
months ago but i was oh i wasbuckled at that trend it was
great and like honestly lookingat it it's no far off and i
(01:02:02):
think this comes from like somany traditional ideas of
femininity like big lips, heavycontour, pouty stares, are
rooted in male gaze aestheticsthat porn helped popularise.
Because originally, as we'vekind of looked at, historically,
porn has been for men.
Jayson (01:02:19):
Yeah, aye.
Rebecca (01:02:20):
And I feel like that's something that hasn't
necessarily been fully shakenoff in the traditional
mainstream porn industry that isbeginning to in the amateur
side of things.
Jayson (01:02:31):
So with amateur porn, by contrast, it's kind of often
challenging that male gazeaesthetic kind of side of things
and shown that it can be messyand imperfect and funny and
emotional and joyful and justlike more real
Rebecca (01:02:45):
yeah more like what sex is actually like for people
that it doesn't need to be thisperformative aesthetic thing
yeah that it's being portrayedas because of course it is
that's the purpose it's serving
So, moving on to segment two, the evolution of
sex work and pornography.
And of course, starting withsex work.
So, Proverbs 6.25
Jayson (00:19):
So there's a running theory that many of the sins in
the Bible are in directopposition to other religious
practices at the time.
Ishtar, also known as Inannaand later Aphrodite, was the
goddess of a great many things,the most famous being love, war,
fertility and politics.
It's been established byHerodotus that in around 430 BC
(00:44):
she was celebrated in Babylon.
In the histories by Herodotusit was written that her
devotion, quote, compels everywoman of the land to sit in the
temple of Aphrodite and haveintercourse with some stranger
at least once in her life.
Once a woman has taken herplace there, she does not go
away to her home before somestranger has cast money into her
(01:06):
lap and had intercourse withher outside the temple.
It does not matter what sum themoney is, the woman will never
refuse, for that would be a sin.
The money being by this actmade sacred.
So she follows the first manwho casts it and rejects no one.
After their intercourse, havingdischarged her sacred duty to
(01:30):
the goddess, she goes away toher home.
Rebecca (01:32):
I think it's worth noting that Herodotus, through
reading some other bits andpieces that he wrote, came
across as a bit of a racistagainst the Babylonian people.
And I know we want to take awayfrom this story, and I believe
that the kind of rough storythis is true, and that There was
(01:54):
temple prostitutes.
This was a thing that went on.
I don't know if it happenedprobably in the exact way that
he's describing as a kind ofgrumpy man that was going about
and judging literally everythinghe's seen and writing about it
disdainfully as came across insome of the other bits and
pieces I read of his.
Jayson (02:12):
Aye, as with a lot of...
stories from history, you'vekind of got to take things with
a wee bit of a pinch of salt.
Rebecca (02:19):
Think about who is writing it, what their motives
are.
Aye,
Jayson (02:23):
and what the vibe was at the time.
Rebecca (02:26):
Aye.
Sacred prostitution was notonly a form of worship and
devotion, but was highlyrespected and celebrated.
Prostitution, even sacredprostitution, was only a threat
to Christianity and itspotential to tempt people away
to other prominent religions atthe time.
Thus became a So I think thisis really relevant in, again,
(02:50):
what we've been discussing andwhy things have came about.
What purpose have they served?
What problem have they solved?
Jayson (02:58):
If they managed to make people feel guilty or sinful
about having sex, it then wouldpotentially curb people being
tempted to these other maybeseen as more fun religions if
they thought there's eternaldamnation on the line I
Rebecca (03:21):
think this is especially interesting when you
take into the context ofChristianity was not the biggest
religion at this point it waskind of up and coming and it was
how do religions grow throughconversions so they're trying to
tempt people away from theiroutstanding religions I think
(03:42):
this is why eternal damnationwas so at the forefront and why
there were just so many sins outthere.
Through having a wee look intoit, there's something like
640-odd different sins in theBible, which is hilarious.
It would be really interestingto see just how many of them
could be traced back to tryingto recruit more followers.
Jayson (04:08):
It kind of seems as though they went with a
two-pronged attack with this.
They either went down the routeof the teachings or practices
of these other religions aresinful or they appropriated
them.
Rebecca (04:28):
Yeah, totally.
Jayson (04:30):
And that looks different depending on where in the world
you are and what branch ofChristianity was trying to take
over.
that particular area butthere's you know so much
christian tradition is actuallyjust rooted in
Rebecca (04:46):
pagan and yeah
Jayson (04:48):
yeah these these kind of other older uh belief systems
Rebecca (04:54):
because they've had to adapt to where they were like
they've had to let the peoplekeep some of their old
traditions in order for them toconvert do you know like they've
reached a kind of compromise
Jayson (05:04):
ah it's made made the transition much smoother and uh
It's meant less like abruptchange into people's lives.
And people don't generally likea lot of particularly fast
change.
Rebecca (05:18):
Yeah.
But I feel like this is oneexample where, you know, looking
at what we have, it's hard tokind of appropriate prostitution
into Christianity in terms ofthe fundamental values that are
written within it.
Like, adultery and you know allthese things that just don't
(05:40):
sit well i feel like this is abit of a chicken and an egg
situation do you know what camefirst is it like as we say that
these kind of sins came about inanswer to other prominent
religions that existed in theday or is it that these things
haven't been appropriated intochristianity in those places
because they were shitting atsuch
Jayson (06:02):
such odds with christian values
Rebecca (06:04):
yeah yeah It's quite interesting.
It's one of them I think we'llnever truly know, but yeah, it's
interesting to think about.
Jayson (06:13):
Ancient Rome accepted prostitutes and brothels as just
another part of life.
Not only was sex work legal,regulated and taxed, but it
wasn't hidden away from the restof society.
It was commonplace for brothelsor lupinarium, to be on busy,
often prominent streets,decorated with erotic art and
(06:36):
the escort's name and priceswritten in chalk on the door.
People even received a speciallicense, licentious stupri, or
license for debauchery.
However, once a name wasentered on the register of the
ediles, it could never beremoved, becoming a permanent
(06:57):
stain against their name.
Nor were prostitutes solelyfemale.
Men could also work asprostitutes.
Roman society permittedsame-sex relationships between
men without a loss of standingor status and they're widely
documented.
It's a bit crazy to me how somany things that have been part
(07:20):
of the big fights in the lasthundred years were just normal.
They were just a normal part ofeveryday life.
In so many places around theworld.
And then somewhere along theline...
Rebecca (07:33):
I'm like, what happened?
Jayson (07:37):
It's like everybody just lost their minds and decided
fun was off the table.
Rebecca (07:42):
Yep.
Jayson (07:44):
And that people were not allowed to just live as they
want or need to live.
Rebecca (07:52):
Ancient Rome wouldn't have really been Christian,
would it?
Depends when, because thatcovers a massive time period, is
the only thing.
Yeah, so ancient Rome coversfrom 753 BC to 476 AD.
So, like, over a thousandyears.
But
Jayson (08:08):
that's still a good while after Jesus died.
Rebecca (08:11):
Some of it is.
Jayson (08:12):
Yeah.
Rebecca (08:13):
Yeah.
Jayson (08:15):
That's still, like, you know, over 400 years after Jesus
died.
Rebecca (08:21):
Aye, like, some of this was after fucking Augustine.
But maybe they didn't have thesame reach back then.
I feel like that's been a fewlifetimes worth to the place
that it is now.
Yeah, yeah.
Even with the acceptance of sexwork as a vital part of
society, sex workers themselveswere still vilified and shunned.
They were not offered the samerights as other citizens and
(08:43):
could not marry regularcitizens, along with a whole
host of other kind of...
Jayson (08:49):
Right, so it wasn't quite the...
Rebecca (08:51):
The glorified, yeah.
Sex work itself was normalised,but sex workers weren't.
There was still this stigmaattached.
Jayson (09:04):
You could draw quite a direct comparison between that
and porn nowadays, where pornitself is really pretty
normalised.
Most people sort of assume thateverybody watches porn.
Yeah.
But it's fine for everybody touse that service.
(09:26):
If you make porn.
If you make porn.
If you're a porn star or a pornactor, you are seen as dirty
and not worthy of the same kindof level of respect as everybody
else.
Which, I mean, that in and ofitself is outrageous.
(09:50):
You know, vilify people who areproviding a service that's so
normalised and so many peopleparticipate in.
Rebecca (10:00):
And a part of everyday life and not even really
something that's hidden much inthe same way as it was back in
ancient Rome.
Jayson (10:09):
Ancient Rome, really not quite all it was cracked up to
be from that wee cursory
Rebecca (10:13):
glance at the start there.
But I find it interestingthough how some things just
never change.
there is always this like Ithink because sex is still seen
as such a shameful act thoughpeople might utilise that
service they still need someoneto blame for it and it comes
(10:35):
back to this you know it cannaebe themselves it cannae be gods
it needs to be the people thatare providing that service if no
society as a whole which is Ifeel a rabbit hole some people
fall into quite often
Jayson (10:50):
aye it's It's like that old saying, history doesn't
repeat, but it rhymes.
Rebecca (10:56):
Yeah,
Jayson (10:58):
totally.
The same themes pop up time andtime again, and while it might
be over, the issue itself mayhave shifted slightly, the
general kind of theme is thesame.
Rebecca (11:13):
Yeah, people have always been people at the end of
the day, no matter what timeperiod they were existing in.
Jayson (11:19):
Yeah.
Rebecca (11:20):
So, looking forward, in the 19th and 20th centuries,
sex workers weren't justsurviving in the shadows.
Many were thriving assignificant, if controversial,
figures in society.
Women like Cora Perle in Franceor Belle Brasing in America
weren't just providing services.
They were cultural influencersbefore that term even existed.
(11:43):
They were fashion icons, musesfor artists and at times
political players.
Some high-end courtesans couldcommand influence over powerful
men, navigate circles of wealthand power and even set social
trends.
Their lives, while precarious,also afforded them a level of
autonomy, education I thinkyou've hit on there one of
Jayson (12:09):
the key reasons why sex workers in general have it so
hard when it comes to thesystems of authority.
It's the independence that theyare able to gain for themselves
through this work that Is athreat.
(12:31):
It threatens the wholestructure of power.
Rebecca (12:36):
They're living outside the social norms.
They're living outside this boxthat's been so carefully
crafted and constructed andreinforced by all these
different things.
And there's people out therejust pure chilling outside it,
living their best life.
And that cannae be left un...
Jayson (12:57):
Aye, they're kind
Rebecca (12:58):
of...
Jayson (12:59):
the shining example to everyone else that hey by the
way you don't actually need tostay in this box they've told
you you need to stay in and
Rebecca (13:09):
I think this is where things get confused I feel like
there's quite a lot ofcontroversy especially within
sex worker movements themselvesjust from things that i've heard
people speaking about about sexwork being empowering and for
me it is in terms of this stuffrather than over the work itself
when you look at the historyand you know sex workers have
(13:31):
been at the forefront of beingindependent autonomous women in
society holding jobs down when
Jayson (13:39):
when that wasn't allowed
Rebecca (13:40):
yeah like like running businesses owning land you know
doing all these things that likewere so just out of reach for
other women at the time and ifeel like in that way they have
been a shining examplethroughout history of like what
women can achieve like but thisis why they've been so
(14:02):
downtrodden and so oppressedbecause we've got a society
that's trying to shun women andmake women dirty and unclean and
not as capable as men and justinferior to men in general.
And then there's all thesepeople that exist and they're
just showing that up every day.
Jayson (14:21):
Their very existence and their independence is in
protest to the system thatexists round about
Rebecca (14:29):
them.
Whether meant or not.
And I feel like when yourexistence becomes a protest in
that way...
you are vulnerable tooppression, and we've seen that
from a lot of other groups that,you know, have faced the issue
of no fitting into this box,like, and standing out against
it, even just by existing.
No through choice.
Jayson (14:51):
Aye, and the system's so hell-bent on holding onto
control at all costs that...
Rebecca (14:59):
Any deviation from the plan is a threat.
Jayson (15:01):
Yep.
This visibility came withrisks.
Many societies pass moralpurity laws targeting sex
workers specifically.
Despite this criminalisationand stigma, sex workers
organised.
In places like France, workersbandied together to demand
better treatment, healthprotections and legal rights.
(15:21):
In the US, madams often wieldedsurprising local power, helping
to shape cities during periodsof rapid urban expansion.
Rebecca (15:30):
it's inspiring how much power these women held within
the societies they were a partof.
Do you know, that for a job,for a profession, because, you
know, that's not everybody'sfull life.
It's just what they're doing tomake money.
Yeah.
To affect every aspect of yourlife in the way that it does.
(15:51):
I think it must be quitedifficult to not become
politically motivated in thesepositions, at least partially.
Yeah.
Jayson (16:00):
Aye, I think as well when your very existence is so
politicised, that will make itvery challenging
Rebecca (16:10):
to
Jayson (16:14):
not be involved in the political side of it.
Rebecca (16:17):
So sex workers were, and still are, essential threads
in the fabric of socialhistory.
They occupied a complicated butcritical space, marginalised
yet influential, criminalisedentrepreneurial.
Understanding their role duringthese periods reminds us that
sex work has always been aboutmore than just economics.
(16:38):
It's about survival, resilienceand sometimes even radical
autonomy and a world designed tokeep certain people powerless.
Jayson (16:47):
Now, fast forward to today.
We're looking at the modern daysex work.
The digital revolution hastransformed almost every
industry, and sex work is noexception.
Platforms like OnlyFans, caminsights, and online escorting
(17:07):
portals have opened the door forsex workers to operate with
more autonomy than ever before.
Workers can now set their ownhours, market themselves, vet
clients more safely and createincome streams without relying
on potentially exploitativeintermediaries.
Rebecca (17:23):
Access has improved dramatically.
Someone living in a rural area,someone managing a disability
or someone who doesn't feel safeworking in person can now
connect with clients from theirhome.
Digital tools like encryptedmessaging, pre-screening
platforms and online paymentsystems have made huge strides
in reducing some of the dangershistorically associated with sex
(17:46):
work.
Jayson (17:48):
It feels like the playing field has been levelled.
It's far more accessible nowthan it's ever been to people
who...
maybe traditionally thiswouldn't have been an option for
them.
Rebecca (18:07):
Yeah, I think technology has been really good
for sex work in a lot of ways inthat it has made it more
accessible for people.
Making it more bureaucratic assuch has made it like, kind of
easier to kind of keep track ofand vet clients and it kind of
get managed more in, like, acommunity sense and created a
(18:28):
community as well.
Jayson (18:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I think people havingconnections to other people in
the industry is really importantfor their safety.
Totally.
And, you know, being able to...
warn other sex workers aboutpotentially dangerous clients
and things like that is such apositive that's come out of
(18:54):
this, where there are places forthem online to speak.
But it's not all good news.
There's a very real tension.
While technology has made sexwork safer and more accessible,
it's also altered the human,intimate element that so many
workers and clients value.
The screen creates distance,interactions can become
(19:19):
transactional to the point ofdisconnection, many workers
report a growing sense ofisolation, endless DMs, content
demands and algorithm games, butfewer genuine connections.
Plus, platforms themselves canbe fickle and dangerous.
Content can be stolen, accountscan be deleted without warning,
(19:43):
and workers are often at themercy of corporate policies that
they have no say in.
Rebecca (19:50):
I would say as well, one thing that for something
like sex work that kind ofexists in this kind of constant
state and threat of becomingcriminalised, you know, is...
It itself, at least inScotland, is decriminalised, but
everything around it is, soit's quite easy to take a
(20:10):
misstep in that direction withthe kind of grey wording of the
laws and stuff.
Jayson (20:15):
And how old the laws are as well.
It feels as though it's been adeliberate attempt to keep
things ambiguous so that there'sroom to...
Rebecca (20:28):
Make it fit.
Jayson (20:29):
Make it fit, room to...
hurt people when they want to
Rebecca (20:33):
yeah definitely and i think you know having everything
online you then have a papertrail that you wouldn't have
done before um that couldpotentially be used against you
if something like what we'rejust what we had said did come
up or if the law changes
Jayson (20:54):
yeah
Rebecca (20:56):
yeah do you know there's there's all these
platforms that are very much outfor themselves and if things
were to go a certain way there's
Jayson (21:06):
there's no saying what what data would be handed over
to police and do you know whowould be helping with
investigations or whatever
Rebecca (21:15):
yeah so I think like and it is this kind of double
edged sword where do you knowit's made things safer in a lot
of ways but unsafe in others andit's just being aware of that
and how you progress through itAnd keep yourself safe within
that system.
Jayson (21:33):
Aye, it feels as though it's kind of simultaneously
opened the floodgates, but putpeople in a far more precarious
position if things were tochange.
Rebecca (21:44):
Yeah.
And it's the same way, like, doyou know, it's created a
community, or it's added to acommunity.
There was potentially acommunity that already existed,
but it wasn't as, like...
obvious because it wasn'tonline.
It wasn't
Jayson (21:57):
as connected
Rebecca (21:58):
as it can be these days.
Where it could be people fromdifferent countries connecting
in a way that maybe wouldn'thave in the past.
But as more isolating, as moreof the work moves online as
opposed to being in person,which a lot of people prefer.
If that's what's got them intothat line of work in the first
place, the kind of humanconnection and the relationship
(22:20):
building.
Not to say that kind ofhappened online, but there is...
Jayson (22:25):
It's much like what we saw throughout COVID, where
people were isolated fromfriends and family but were able
to do more things like FaceTimeand video calls, Zoom, Skype,
whatever.
Rebecca (22:39):
All the quizzes, oh my god.
Jayson (22:42):
So there was still this vast interconnectedness, however
it was because you were missingthat in-person physical contact
and being able to actually seeand touch and hold the people
that you love.
Rebecca (23:01):
Yeah.
Jayson (23:03):
you felt so disconnected.
So, like, do you know, Ireally, I can empathise with
that situation.
I think it's one that so manymore people kind of are more
familiar with now since COVIDand all kind of having that
experience.
Rebecca (23:23):
So ultimately, whether on the cobblestone streets of
19th century Paris or in theinfinite scroll of today's
OnlyFans feeds, sex workerscontinue to show us what
resilience, adaptation andsurvival truly look like.
Jayson (23:38):
Pornography.
Matthew 5.28 But I say to youthat everyone who looks at a
woman with lustful intent hasalready committed adultery with
her in his heart.
When we think about pornographytoday, it's almost impossible
to separate it from technology.
From glossy high-productionfilms to the endless stream of
(24:00):
clips on your phones.
But to understand how we gothere, we need to go back.
Way back.
Rebecca (24:08):
The word pornography actually comes from the Greek
porne meaning prostitute andgraphene meaning to write.
Originally it wasn't about filmor pictures at all.
It referred to any artwork orliterature depicting the lives
of sex workers.
Today of course we mainlyassociate it with visual media,
videos, photos and increasinglyuser generated content.
Jayson (24:32):
The history of visual porn is almost as old as film
itself.
In 1896, the very first motionpicture was publicly shown.
And less than a year later, wehad the first erotic one.
A seven-minute short called LeCouché de la Mariée, or Bedtime
for the Bride.
(24:52):
It showed a woman undressingfor bed while her groom peeked
from behind a screen.
The very next year, we got thefirst on-screen kiss.
the famous 18-second Mary Irwinkiss.
This tiny moment sparkedoutrage, particularly from the
(25:13):
Catholic Church, which demandedcensorship and moral reform.
At the time, public kissingcould actually get you arrested.
I
Rebecca (25:21):
didn't even know that we had motion pictures from
before the 1900s, never mindthat they were at the stage of
being publicly shown in 1896.
Yeah, I
Jayson (25:32):
mean, we've even spoken to...
see your grandparents and stuffand they were under the
impression that the first filmsand things were the 1920s.
So It's wild to think how farback that actually goes.
Rebecca (25:49):
Yeah.
Like, that was certainly whenthey were popularised.
Yeah.
At least, do you know, inBritain and stuff, because this
was in France, and I think theywere one of the first places to
kind of hold these public showsand films before anywhere else,
but still, it's wild.
It's mad to think it took,like, nearly 30 years before it
(26:09):
was kind of...
As widespread and as popular,yeah.
Yeah.
Things move so much quicker nowthan they did back then in
terms of new technology.
Aye.
Aye.
Like, it's wild to think whatadvances there's been for, like,
97 until now, for example,compared to then.
Jayson (26:33):
Aye, the rate of advancements is getting so much
quicker.
Rebecca (26:38):
Yep.
Wild to think that publickissing was, like, illegal back
then as well.
Jayson (26:44):
Aye, that's...
Rebecca (26:46):
And then people showed it on a stage, which is wild.
Cheeky.
Jayson (26:52):
Aye, that seems like quite an inflammatory thing to
do.
Rebecca (26:56):
I'm surprised they didn't get arrested at the time,
if that was the case.
Jayson (27:02):
Aye, it shows you just quite how firm a grip the sort
of morality police had at thistime that Even that was wild for
the time.
So whilst that caused such anuproar, you've got then in the
(27:26):
background this almostunderground movement of erotic
film.
I imagine if that was widerpublic knowledge, the outcry
would have been...
unbelievable
Rebecca (27:42):
yeah well we know how bad it was in the fucking 80s do
you know what i mean never mindback in the early 1900s like
this was like victorian timeslike people were you know if we
if you think we're prude newlike despite pushback erotic
filmmaking grew early 20thcentury companies around the
(28:03):
world started producing shortstag films as they were known
mostly for wealthy, upper-classmen who could afford to import
these clandestine works.
Leading the way were the Pathébrothers, who eventually moved
operations to Argentina to dodgecensorship from the French
government.
Brothels in Buenos Aires becamehubs for early porn
(28:25):
distribution across Europe.
One of the oldest survivingtrue pornographic films, El
Citario, or The Devil, wasfilmed in Argentina around 1907.
And if you're curious, the fullthing is also up on Wikipedia.
Jayson (28:40):
So you had a rewatch of the clip that's available on
Wikipedia, didn't you?
Rebecca (28:47):
I did.
I did.
It was...
It was wild, to be quitehonest.
I was not...
Do you know, this being fromthe time period when it was, I
was not expecting it to...
It was in black and white,obviously, and it was quite old,
so it had quite a lot of kindof...
disruption and stuff over thetop of it.
Like, some, like, static andthat.
(29:08):
But, outwith of that, if you'dtold me that was, like, for the
80s or something, I would havebelieved you.
Not that I've watched an awfullot of 80s porn, but just in
terms of...
I didn't feel over 100 yearsold.
I kind of started off with,like, three women, like, naked,
like, kind of chasing each otherabout and washing each other in
(29:29):
a stream.
And...
kind of chasing each otherthrough a forest and skipping
and dancing about in a kind ofcircle holding hands and because
there were three of them andthe thing was called the devil I
was kind of expecting this tobe like a kind of witchy
summoning circle vibe justbecause it made sense those are
(29:54):
the tropes yeah those are thetropes but then another three
women came along all naked aswell and I was like where is
this thing going And then, thenext minute, the devil appears.
Now, in the Wikipedia entry,he's described as, like, a faun.
And I feel like that suitsbetter what this looked like.
Jayson (30:16):
Rather than, like, the devil as we know.
Rebecca (30:18):
Yeah, rather than, like, or even, like, the name of
the thing.
But, oh, it had such mightybush energy.
It was, like, the full, like,paper mache nose.
You know, like, the cheap,like...
plasticky no even the plasticwasn't even vented at the time
so like i don't know what theyused but like the cheap kind of
like fur like fabric like stuckto the face is like a beard um
(30:43):
and like the horns of course andhe's like pure like villain
like creeping like with the armsyou know the creepy arms like
through the forest and likerunning around the trees and
stuff um and then like startschasing the lassies down and one
of them like falls and thenthey like pounces on her and
then they're like straight intolike her genome heed and like
(31:03):
full 69 like full pnv like itwas like proper like zero to 60
like sounds like quite
Jayson (31:10):
pretty like modern modern
Rebecca (31:13):
porn sort of quite explicit quite what you would
expect from porn Regularly,like, I don't know why I was
expecting, like, Victorian eraporn.
Aye, this just wasn't what Iwas expecting at all.
Like,
Jayson (31:25):
yeah.
It sounds like there's a lot ofthroughlines from this to
modern porn.
Rebecca (31:32):
Aye, like, it doesn't seem to have changed or adapted
all that much.
Jayson (31:37):
Aye, the cameras have got better.
Rebecca (31:41):
There was points where it was cutting from them being
in the forest to, like...
them being in a barn but Idon't know if this was because
this wasn't like the full clipit was only like nine minutes
long so I don't know if therewas maybe more to the story that
kind of had been cut out overtime but all the way throughout
it, he was trying to stick hisfingers up her arse, and she was
(32:04):
batting his hand away.
And it was one of them, I waslike, is this part of the story,
or do you think this is whatwas actually happening?
Jayson (32:12):
This guy's actually just been a bit of a lech.
Rebecca (32:16):
Because, you know, either could be true, but I
don't know, I wonder if, like,even then, you know, anal was
maybe, like, a wee bit too far,but, like, a wee hint of, like,
it being potentially was, like,titillating enough to be, you
know, like, part of the show.
Ah, it was being a bit edgy.
Being a bit edgy without, youknow, going over into, like, too
(32:40):
far territory, potentially.
Yeah.
I, 69 in 1907, own film in aforest in Buenos Aires with
Argentinian prostitutes was nothow I thought I was going to be
spending my Tuesday morning.
But, yeah, wild.
Another wee factoid that Ididn't necessarily write loads
(33:07):
about but I found reallyinteresting was obviously the
Pathé brothers.
Through looking up some stuffabout them, I came across the
kind of symbol for their companyand was like, hold on, I've
seen that a million times.
What is this company?
Jayson (33:20):
You showed it to me and I instantly recognised it and
started listing out films.
I'm like, I've seen that.
You see that at the start ofthis film and this film and this
film.
Rebecca (33:32):
And we had to look into it, or I had to look into it at
the time and then showed you.
and they are like a filmdistribution company who have
worked with many famous namesmost notably and recently being
Warner Brothers for like the UKand Europe distribution films so
they've done like Chicken Runthey've done so many horror
(33:54):
films like they did like TheDescent what was some of the
other ones?
Jayson (34:00):
Chicken Run was the big one that was one I watched quite
a lot as a child and
Rebecca (34:05):
because it was like a yellow chicken with Pathy above
it that's their symbol and thatwas like I was like I'm sure
that was in a chicken film andwhen you said chicken run I was
like because I remember as a kidbeing like oh it's a chicken
like before it even started butyeah they started in porn they
ran like one of the mostsuccessful like initial first
(34:26):
porn production companies in theworld
Jayson (34:29):
they must have really done quite well to end up where
they have today
Rebecca (34:33):
yeah
Jayson (34:35):
I wonder how common knowledge that is, that part of
their company history, evenwithin the company itself, or if
that's something they shy awayfrom.
By the 1920s, silent porn filmswere pretty widespread, but
also illegal to possess in manyplaces.
It wasn't until the culturalrevolutions of the 1960s that
(34:58):
attitudes began to shift.
Mainstream movies pushed theenvelope.
A Swedish film called I AmCurious Yellow, where a woman
kisses her lover's flaccidpenis, caused massive
controversy, even getting bannedin Massachusetts.
But when the courts overturnedthe ban, it paved the way for
(35:19):
more sexually explicit media toenter the mainstream.
Denmark led the charge in 1969by abolishing all censorship
laws, including those againsthardcore pornography.
The Netherlands quicklyfollowed, and this sparked a
boom in porn production, withfilms smuggled across Europe to
meet the growing demand.
Rebecca (35:41):
I wonder what they would have made of Game of
Thrones back then.
Which, to be fair, the peniseswere still all flaccid, as far
as I can remember.
I feel like that's a thing.
It's allowed as long as it'snot hard.
Even now, there's still a bitof...
That's too sexual at
Jayson (36:00):
that point.
It's quite amazing to seecomparing modern day mainstream
television and just how much sexit's kind of just about shown
(36:21):
in modern television and that'sfine and normal but going back
to you know the 60s we'retalking like outrage
Rebecca (36:32):
i wonder right if this is part of because do you know
in the 60s most of the timepeople were going to go and see
films when they first came outwas in the pictures and it's not
to say that that doesn't stillhappen today but a lot more
media, like Game of Thrones isan example of that, is mostly
just seen in people's homes.
(36:53):
And it's one of theseout-of-sight, out-of-mind things
where people aren't reacting toviewing this in a crowd of
their peers.
Jayson (37:02):
Yeah, it's a bit more, do you know, I think especially
with British prudishness, it's atotally different thing to be
watching this on your own or in
Rebecca (37:18):
your
Jayson (37:19):
living room versus in a public place with a crowd of
people that you don't know andthen you're supposed to kind of
keep up this
Rebecca (37:27):
I like react how they react kind of thing
Jayson (37:30):
I sort of play the
Rebecca (37:32):
compliance game
Jayson (37:34):
yeah
Rebecca (37:36):
it's interesting I feel like there's definitely
something to be said for thatThen came the 1980s and the rise
of home video.
Suddenly, you didn't have to goto a sleazy theatre to watch
porn.
You could do it from yourliving room.
Porn became more accessible toboth consumers and creators.
Low budget and amateur filmsflourished.
(37:57):
Niches and fetishes that wereonce marginalised became easier
to find.
The era of the big budgettheatrical porno was coming to
an end.
So you can imagine before this,the reason why porn was so big
budget was because all filmneeded to be big budget in order
(38:19):
to exist.
The time and dedication it tookfor them to take and develop
all those individual film reelsand edit them by hand, cut all
the frame by frame pieces outand stick them back together the
amount of craftsmanship andwork and time and labour that
(38:39):
went into creating a film.
And the equipment.
And all the equipment as well.
It was outwith the everydayperson's capabilities to do.
Unless they were really, reallyinto it and it was their thing.
The amount of money and timeand effort that would need to go
in to actually being able toset up a TV studio for porn or
(39:02):
otherwise was really outwith thecapabilities of the general
public at that time.
But with the 80s came in notonly videos but also camcorders
and the ability for people tojust make and record films at
the touch of a button.
Jayson (39:22):
Aye, so this was like another big step in the
democratisation of technology,putting it into the hands of a
broader range of people thatwouldn't have otherwise had
access to those kind ofcapabilities and who don't have
(39:43):
the technical expertise to beworking on that higher-end, kind
of high-budget film productionquality stuff.
Rebecca (39:52):
So that's just generally led to there being a
big surge in porn.
Yeah.
And the demand for it was therealready.
And if anything, grew at thispoint because people weren't
having to go and put themselvesat risk by going to a theatre or
something.
It was something that theycould order from a magazine and
get directly to their house.
Aye, no have to actually puttheir face to
Jayson (40:18):
it as such.
Aye, it was a lot less...
A lot more limited...
Interactions had to...
Had to happen.
Rebecca (40:29):
Yeah.
Jayson (40:29):
There was less steps between you and porn.
Rebecca (40:31):
And, like, I'm not being funny.
Fuck wanking in a room full ofother people.
Like, that...
I
Jayson (40:36):
think they had little booths.
Rebecca (40:38):
They had little booths.
But even then, like, thenoises.
Like, oh, I feel...
I feel like that would beenough to
Jayson (40:48):
put you on.
Aye, and I think the fear wouldbe getting...
Getting spotted as you're onyour way
Rebecca (40:52):
in or out.
And I'm not being funny.
Like, they're probably...
if a woman was to show up atone of these places, it would
probably be...
They probably wouldn't have avery good time with the
attention that they would get, Iwould imagine, in that
situation.
These places probably wouldhave mostly been filled with
men.
Yeah.
(41:12):
Like, yeah.
It would have made it not feellike a safe place to go as a
woman.
Or anybody of any genderoutwith.
Kind of just...
cis men.
Or probably cis white men,let's be honest.
Jayson (41:28):
Yeah.
The next technological leap,the internet, changed everything
again.
No longer did you need todiscreetly order DVDs or
magazines or videos.
Porn was now just a few clicksaway.
This new digital access was adouble-edged sword.
While it made porn moreavailable than ever, it also
(41:51):
decimated the traditional pornindustry.
Piracy, amateur uploads, andindependent creators undercut
major studios, allowing massivestreaming platforms like Pornhub
to dominate.
I mean, this is just like afurtherance of the
democratisation.
It's putting things more andmore into the hands of everyday
(42:15):
people.
Where, you know, not everybodymaybe would have had a
camcorder.
Once we're into the age of theinternet and smartphones, pretty
much everybody has asmartphone.
They're kind of essential formodern life.
Rebecca (42:33):
Yeah.
The amount of places you gothese days and you have to scan
QR codes to even order food orsign into places and stuff is
wild.
I don't know how anybodysurvives without a smartphone
these days.
Aye.
Very difficultly.
But yeah, I find it reallyinteresting that the porn
(42:59):
industry has had such arollercoaster over the course of
its beginning until now.
And reading that, it makes itquite unbelievable that there is
still massive porn companiesthat exist out there that are
still managing to survivedespite how much essentially
(43:20):
free porn exists on the internetthese days.
I think that goes to show justhow much that kind of personal
connection is still such a bigpart of people's consumption of
porn in terms of like OnlyFansand people being quite loyal to
certain porn stars and certainporn production companies that
(43:42):
they are willing to go and payand support them in that way
when they could just watch...
It's not just about it beingporn.
There's still some form ofemotion involved in it, in that
sense.
Or at least that's what Ithink.
Jayson (43:59):
I'm actually like emotion and personal preference
and things.
There is so much out there thatpretty much everybody's got
their preferences covered.
There's
Rebecca (44:17):
Aye, I think that's one good thing that has came out of
it, is that it's notnecessarily been decided by five
groups of people that own thebig porn production companies.
There is a lot more niche and alot more fetish stuff and that
out there.
Jayson (44:35):
Aye, and it's sort of the market kind of dictates the
demand for certain things Isthere.
So then whoever is filling thatparticular niche the best or in
(44:59):
particular ways then succeeds.
Rebecca (45:01):
Yeah.
It's created more like acompetition in that way.
Jayson (45:05):
Yeah.
Rebecca (45:06):
Yeah.
So moving on to the nextsegment.
Challenges within porn.
So with growth comes growingpains.
Yeah.
The porn industry faces seriouschallenges, ones we still
struggle with today.
So we actually watched adocumentary a few months ago
(45:53):
called Is Anyone Up?
which was covering a revengeporn site called isanyoneup.com
that was quite big in the early2000s into the 2010s where
cutting a long story short itturned out the premise of the
(46:13):
site was that people would besending in videos and pictures
of their exes as revenge it wasliterally they had no...
weren't hiding what they wereabout like it was a revenge porn
site specifically but throughsome investigation by a lot of
different people um because theypissed a lot of folk off with
(46:35):
this obviously they upset anddamaged a lot of people um it
turned out that they had beenhacking into people's emails and
taking pictures and videos fromtheir phones without their
consent and uploading themthemselves to the site to ensure
that there was this constantfeed of of content all the time
(46:55):
regardless of whether peoplewere sending things in or not
and i don't know it was that onitself obviously was horrible
but it was quite nice in a wayto to know that they were having
to do that because even thoughpeople were maybe outwardly like
supporting them and that theyweren't necessarily getting A
lot of people that were engagingin that behaviour.
(47:16):
The engagement wasn't there
Jayson (47:18):
enough that they had to fake their own engagement.
Yeah.
Rebecca (47:24):
It put a wee bit of faith in humanity back in me,
watching that.
Because it was massive.
There was so much content onthere to think that all these
women...
Obviously, I'm not saying itwasn't so damaging to them, like
it was horrible what happened,but it wasn't...
through people that they caredabout and trusted that were
(47:44):
doing this to them.
Jayson (47:46):
Which makes it mildly better.
It was like an outside attackthat was leaving them vulnerable
to this.
So even sites like Pornhub havecome under fire for their lack
of moderation.
With millions of videos beinguploaded, how do they ensure
every performer actuallyconsented?
how do they police stolencontent
Rebecca (48:07):
yeah i feel like this is something that comes up a lot
you know i i personally totallysupport sex workers i totally
support content creators i'm inno way saying that this industry
is a bad one i just like whenyou have sites that are so
popular like how how are theyhiring enough people to actually
moderate what is on their siteand i think this comes down to
(48:30):
even within the porn industryitself do you know how many
clips are on Pornhub that aresupposed to be paid for clips
that have been pirated andstolen and uploaded by people in
order to circumvent thepaywalls that exist for a reason
so that the performers get paidwhat they're due.
It in and of itself and the waythat it's moderated is harmful
(48:54):
not only from an exploitationpoint of view in terms of people
that are getting stuff postedwithout their consent but also
in terms of the professionalsthat are having their
livelihoods stolen by stuffgetting taken from paid for
platforms and put on a freestreaming site.
(49:15):
Feminist perspectives on pornremain divided.
Some argue that porn can beempowering, a way to reclaim
agency and express sexuality.
Others see it as perpetuatingharmful stereotypes, reinforcing
a male-gaze driven vision ofsex that leaves out emotional
connection, consent, diversityand real bodies.
Jayson (49:36):
Another huge problem, porn as sex education.
Because formal sex ed is soterrible or missing altogether,
many people's first exposure tosex comes through porn.
Especially when it comes tokink and BDSM.
Porn often represents a fantasyversion that leaves out
(49:57):
negotiation, consent, aftercareand emotional safety.
It's fantasy, not a tutorial,but not everyone learns that
distinction.
Rebecca (50:08):
This is something, you know, I feel even I've been
guilty of in the past wheregrowing up, and we kind of
touched a wee bit on this in ourfirst episode, where our
introduction to this way of lifehas been through things like
porn and erotica and other formsof media that don't give a true
representation of what actuallygoes on and it's one of the
reasons why in that respect Iwill always be an advocator for
(50:31):
like going to munchies going toevents like getting involved in
the kink community because It'snot to say that people are not
able to do research and pick upthese things by themselves,
but...
Jayson (50:43):
But you miss that context that's there in real
life.
Rebecca (50:47):
Seeing it in person just gives you a totally
different understanding, whichis why so many people do turn to
porn as sex education, asopposed to the more practical
knowledge that we're given inschool.
It doesn't give you a clearpicture.
You could...
do the research like we havebeen given but it's not like a
(51:08):
true representation of howthings how easier it is to pick
up things watching what's goingon and in this case watching
something that's not real goingon and picking up bad habits
from
Jayson (51:22):
so many of the positions and like camera angles and
things that are used in porn isto make it like as visually
appealing or as clear what'sgoing on as possible.
And for most people, those arenot realistic things to be doing
(51:43):
in the bedroom.
Rebecca (51:44):
They're not going to give you the most pleasure out
of something.
Yep.
Because they're designed tolook good rather than feel good.
Absolutely.
And there's a massivedistinction between the two when
it comes to actually havingsex.
Jayson (51:57):
So our next segment is The Rise of Amateur Porn.
One of the most exciting shiftshappening today is the rise of
amateur porn.
Amateur content, real people,real bodies, real sex is
booming.
Sites like MakeLoveNotPorn areworking to bring love,
(52:17):
authenticity and humanconnection back into the
portrayal of sex.
Rebecca (52:21):
Honestly, I've been meaning to buy a few videos from
there, partly from research,but also because it's such a
refreshing change from thescripted, over-the-top stuff
that still dominates mainstreamporn.
The whole concept behind thesite and why I thought it was
worth speaking about issomething that I've been kind of
keep going on and having a lookand not really delved into, but
I feel like it's something thatI'm going to do and will
(52:42):
probably have a real dig in toit at some point is amateur porn
but the whole point in it isthat you set the camera up and
forget it so rather than itnecessarily being about video
and the visual side of sex likevideo and the connection and the
intimate side of sex and thatyou're trying to capture a
(53:04):
moment and forget about thecamera rather than trying to
capture a scene with the cameraas such for wanting a better way
to describe that They'veprobably put it much better on
their site.
I don't know the concept.
I've been thinking about it formonths since I've first seen
it.
It seems so healthy in such anicer way and a better way of
(53:30):
making porn.
In the terms of sex education,for example, where you're not
then having to go to a playparty.
to see people being intimatewith each other.
I think it's such a refreshingviewpoint, getting to actually
see intimacy over getting to seeacting.
And the two definitely havetheir place and I'm not saying
(53:50):
that one's necessarily betterthan the other.
They both serve differentpurposes and serve different
people because everybody hastheir own preferences.
But for me, I really strugglewith watching quite a lot of
porn because I find it quitefake.
and quite over the top quite alot of the time especially like
(54:12):
in terms of like the kink andBDSM stuff like it's always
really mild or really extremelike I feel like there's really
a missing part somewhere downthe middle that's more real and
less like either very veryprofessional and strict or
people who are playing about andtrying some kinky stuff rather
(54:35):
than it being BDSM.
Jayson (54:37):
Yeah.
You've kind of got it almostbeing used as an aesthetic.
Rebecca (54:43):
Yeah.
Jayson (54:45):
Or the really, really extreme end.
Rebecca (54:49):
Which has its moments, don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying that that's notsomething that I enjoy, but I
feel like sometimes I'm missingthat intimacy.
Jayson (54:58):
You've got the sort of content that almost as kind of
just using Kink and BDSM as anaesthetic choice.
Without necessarily it reallyshowing what a dynamic looks
(55:19):
like or without it being anactual scene.
And then you've got on theother end kind of quite quite
extreme, like, tends to be quitehigh protocol, like, some
pretty intense stuff that,whilst both are good, both are
(55:41):
good and serve a purpose forcertain people, I don't feel
like either gives, like, areally good true representation,
sets healthy expectations forpeople in real relationships and
people who are looking to getinto real BDSM real BDSM
(56:04):
relationships I find that it'swhat exists can be kind of
damaging and set people up tofail almost
Rebecca (56:17):
It is a fantasy at the end of the day and I feel like
that can get lost in translationquite easily So just for the
people at home High Protocol isa more authoritative style of
BDSM that kind of adheres toreally strict rules, really
strict power play dynamics wherethere tends to be rules and
(56:45):
consequences and rewards andthere's more of a hierarchy
involved than there can be inother BDSM dynamics.
It tends to be more kind oftraditional, I would say, in
terms of what we're describing.
I feel like this is why it'sshowcased in porn quite a lot.
(57:07):
It tends to be what peoplethink of when they think of BDSM
because it can look moreextreme and therefore tends to
be more sensationalised withinmedia and it tends to be what is
shown.
and when it's represented inmedia a lot of the time.
Jayson (57:24):
Yeah, and for me personally, I found not
necessarily the actions, but thenature of the dynamic itself
and the expectations that that'sit to be the kind of
unrealistic part.
Because, you know, seeing thatand thinking, oh, that's how a
(57:45):
dom has to behave.
That's how a sub has to behave.
There has to be...
rules and consequences and...
Rebecca (57:52):
For every little thing, like, not always, but it tends
to be very pervasive, veryall-consuming, and not
necessarily something that couldbe easily held up 24-7, you
know, in terms of...
Aye, it tends to be, like, andevery single little thing is
(58:15):
laid out and mapped and...
Jayson (58:17):
As a kind of beginner...
that feeling is veryoverwhelming going into a
dynamic thinking that these arethe expectations.
That
Rebecca (58:25):
that's what you need to live up
Jayson (58:26):
to.
Rebecca (58:27):
When there's actually a million different ways to do
BDSM and that is one part of it.
And I don't know that it...
I feel like it is unhealthy forthe majority of people to try
and reach that point.
Because it's not everybody'sthing.
And it doesn't need to be.
I think...
That was a pitfall I fell intoa lot in the beginning where I
(58:51):
felt if I wasn't doing that thenI wasn't doing enough and felt
very like kind of impostersyndrome and very inferior and
like am I going to be capable ofthis and that needed to be the
goal that I was working towards.
Jayson (59:03):
It can lead to a lot of insecurity.
Rebecca (59:05):
Yeah and that's the unhealthy bit.
It's not the thing in of itselfwhich loads of people that is
their thing and that's what theydo and that's totally fine and
normal if that is what they wantand what they enjoy but You
don't need to enjoy that toenjoy BDSM.
Jayson (59:22):
I feel like as you're growing up you hear people
saying things like what you seein porn is not real life.
That's not how things actuallywork in real life.
Or like sex that you see inporn is not a true
representation.
It is a fantasy.
(59:42):
But I find that that sort ofcontext is missing on the BDSM
side of things because the onlyportrayals that I certainly was
aware of growing up and stuffwas of that style so there's not
(01:00:04):
then that kind of expectationof oh that's just a fantasy,
that's the kind of fantasyversion of this yeah which I
think kind of allows room forunhealthy expectations to grow
Rebecca (01:00:21):
I think it's quite easy when you're grown up you know
you're told like as you've saidthat porn that's not like a true
representation but I think withthe period as being neuro spicy
and no taking the thing and ohit's different like different
situations that can apply to forme when I got told that I'm
like right that's true ofvanilla porn like I didn't
(01:00:42):
necessarily think that that wasthe case for all porn and as
you've said you know growing upand not really having a lot of
like things that represent howyou feel that was the closest
and only thing it makes sensethat that would then you would
take that on yeah you know asbeing what your goal was what
(01:01:02):
your aim was going forward and ithink kind of circling this
back this is where amateur porndefinitely comes into its own
and that i feel like that iswhat is filling in this middle
point because it's filling aniche
Jayson (01:01:21):
that
Rebecca (01:01:22):
isn't covered by mainstream porn.
Jayson (01:01:25):
And it's also helping to fight back against harmful
stereotypes about bodies andbeauty standards and
sexualities.
It's there to remind us thatsex isn't just about performing,
it's about
Rebecca (01:01:40):
connecting.
that that is sometimes missingfrom kind of mainstream porn so
there's even a running joke ontiktok about how conservative
women are basically wearing pornstar makeup this was a few
months ago but i was oh i wasbuckled at that trend it was
great and like honestly lookingat it it's no far off and i
(01:02:02):
think this comes from like somany traditional ideas of
femininity like big lips, heavycontour, pouty stares, are
rooted in male gaze aestheticsthat porn helped popularise.
Because originally, as we'vekind of looked at, historically,
porn has been for men.
Jayson (01:02:19):
Yeah, aye.
Rebecca (01:02:20):
And I feel like that's something that hasn't
necessarily been fully shakenoff in the traditional
mainstream porn industry that isbeginning to in the amateur
side of things.
Jayson (01:02:31):
So with amateur porn, by contrast, it's kind of often
challenging that male gazeaesthetic kind of side of things
and shown that it can be messyand imperfect and funny and
emotional and joyful and justlike more real
Rebecca (01:02:45):
yeah more like what sex is actually like for people
that it doesn't need to be thisperformative aesthetic thing
yeah that it's being portrayedas because of course it is
that's the purpose it's serving
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