"Founder of acquired dating app, now Fintech founder" with Sameh Saleh, Co-Founder MNZL

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So I've learned that actually dreams has a timeline.

(00:03):
I love that.
And then, yeah, and then they expire.
Yeah.
And you need to act on them.
It created this sense of urgency in you.
Exactly.
If you want it.
Yes.
You should go and have a shot at it.
So it went like crazy.
It went like mad.
We became like the most viewed travel channel in the Middle East in like a couple of months.
I see a struggle somehow and I see a problem.

(00:24):
And then whenever I think about how big the problem is
and what could be the possible solutions to fix it, that's my key drive.
So when you're trying to date and you're like, this is hard.
So I talked to many girls, right?
And they said, yeah, we will never use dating apps because men are not serious.
Like it's not even a possibility.
I had a big group of friends back home and they're like, guys, do you know like online

(00:48):
dating apps?
And I'm like, yeah, we use it sometimes to find girls.
And then I started writing down how they do it.
And I went to the team and I said, okay, let's reverse that.
So let's make sure that whoever used the app is not with that intention.
Let's make sure that whoever used the app is there.
It's like a reverse customer research.
But there must have been something that drove you to keep going.

(01:10):
And I'm really keen to hear what that was.
The problem, like the women in my family, like whenever I think that if I don't do this,
then it doesn't exist.
It doesn't exist and then they will keep suffering.
Luck is very much like underrated.
So it's a lot of hard work, right?
It's also talent and skill.
This is the Startup Leap, where we explore the stories of incredible entrepreneurs who

(01:31):
have taken the leap to build their own startups.
Get ready for real, raw and relatable discussions, nuanced conversations that unearth insights
into the realities and possibilities as you explore taking the leap to starting your own company.
We're your host.
I'm Maria, operator and investor and partner at OpenSeed VC.

(01:53):
I'm Yvonne, an early stage tech investor and partner at Local Globe.
And welcome to the Startup Leap.
Yvonne and Maria are partners at Local Globe and OpenSeed VC respectively.
Local Globe and OpenSeed are independent of the Startup Leap podcast.
Any statements made by Maria, Yvonne or the Startup Leap guests are solely their view

(02:14):
and are not advice.
Endorsements by the Startup Leap, it's guests Maria and Yvonne.
So welcome to another episode of the Startup Leap.
Today, we're super excited to have Samir, the founder of Menzel, a three-time founder
who's previously sold one of his businesses to Match Group.
And his third company, who he's recently just raised for, is one that you really,

(02:34):
really want to hear about.
Fantastic.
So, yeah, you were saying just before the start, you said you lived in, where?
Malaysia.
Malaysia.
For 12 years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I was born and raised in Cairo, but then after high school, I got a scholarship to
study in Malaysia.

(02:55):
Okay.
And that was...
When did you, at what age?
I'm trying to figure out what's the phase in your life.
I was 17 years old.
And it was like life-changing because like it was my first time out of Egypt.
Oh, wow.
Really?
Yeah.
And then all on your own.
That must have been an experience in itself.
It was.
It was crazy.
Leaving home.
Yes.
Going to another continent.

(03:17):
At 17.
And it's not something common in Egypt, like I think in Africa in general.
Yeah, that's true.
Actually, very few people like take a gap year or like go to countries.
These are things we started learning later, like when we met people living in the US.
And we're like, you better do that and get it.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So it was very, like very big decision to make to just leave the country and go to Malaysia.

(03:42):
I had a question first.
Like, what is it like growing up in Egypt?
Because I think like even for listeners who may be Africans or even Europeans or global listeners,
there is so much, I guess, fragmentation in the experience of a particular place within Africa.
Egypt is different from Nigeria, from South Africa.
So paint us a picture.

(04:02):
Yeah.
And you know, when you hear Africa, maybe people growing up, sometimes people feel like it's so
different, but we have the same experiences.
You wake up, you go to school, you probably go to church, you go to your family.
So I would love like, what was the average day growing up in Egypt?
I mean, back like that, we're talking about like 25 years ago, or like 30 years ago.

(04:23):
It was very different.
But the beauty of it, it was like more, the inequality was not so big.
So you find like the middle class, the lower class, not so far off from the high class.
So we used to go to government schools, right?
Used to, because now it's very different.
But like you get a fair amount of education in a government school.

(04:44):
And then, yeah, you walk, you use like public transportation.
Yeah.
And it was fine.
Now it's getting harder and harder to do that.
And the gap is getting much, much bigger.
But at that time, yes.
And then you basically learn at school.
And then it's a very also like Egypt is, because you mentioned church.

(05:05):
Also, Egypt is a very like, you know, religious country.
So Muslims and Christians, like we have the prayers, we go to it
and we use it in our day to day languages.
And yeah, I, to be honest, I enjoyed growing up in Egypt.
And there's always this, which seems like other African countries,
there's always this like hustling mentality.

(05:25):
Spirit.
Yeah.
So you like when I was young, like I learned how to negotiate,
like watching my mother buying clothes, you know, from the street.
No one negotiates like an African.
Yes.
Exactly.
It's crazy.
So you had that early entrepreneurial exposure from your mother.
That's so interesting.
Yes.
Like you could see like when she and the guy like, oh, this is like for 10 pounds.

(05:48):
And it's like, no, no, no, two pounds.
I'm like, wow.
How did we go from 10 to two?
You know, like secretly, I think it's like the African thing.
You learn it like everywhere at the market.
And yeah, you'd be very surprised how low we can go from 10 to two.
Yes.
Even when I go to countries that are not where you go.
My mom always tries.
I'm like, please don't bring that here.

(06:10):
Yeah.
Interesting.
And I believe also like I was fortunate enough to live in a not very like upper class family.
So you see like things.
So there's always this hustling and you live to live on scarcity as well.
Like everything is scarce and like you really work hard to get it.
And to be innovative as well.

(06:31):
Yes.
And I love that to be honest.
Like it helps so much in the entrepreneurial journey eventually.
True.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Malaysia, why Malaysia?
So Malaysia was like the only option for me to travel outside Egypt.
Okay.
See something else because again, it wasn't something common at all to travel.
Like it was like again, coming from like a middle lower class family.

(06:57):
So you don't travel for tourism and to travel for work, you need to be really, really good to travel.
Yeah.
So I scored well in my education and then there was this scholarship started coming.
So I got a scholarship to study in an Egyptian university, like American university.
But then there was this scholarship where you travel to Malaysia for five years

(07:17):
and they like pay for everything, the cost and everything.
And you were like, sign me up.
Of course.
Interesting.
Yes.
And I was of course scared to take that step.
Did you know anyone in Malaysia?
Zero.
What was your reference point?
Like zero.
Yeah.
Did you go ahead like do research?
What was going through your mind?

(07:39):
So at that time there was no like, like what is research?
Yeah.
There was no like Google, there was nothing.
Like even that's a funny story, but I remember on the very first few months there,
I still used letters.
Really?
You're dating yourself.
Yeah.
You're telling us how old you are.
Don't you remember like letters?

(08:02):
It's just like, whenever I remember these stories,
a good reminder to where we are today.
Yeah.
But like I used letters as a way of communication, you know?
And then emails.
And then after a year or two, then it was like the Gmail and then calls and like mass
How times have changed?
It's changed massively.
Yes.
But we didn't know anyone.
And then it was a big like step to take.

(08:23):
And there was no reference point.
So that's, I think very interesting.
Yes. How did you convince your parents?
Like what was the situation when you were telling family,
like I'm going to Malaysia.
They're like, Malie, what?
Yeah.
That's quite a bold move to move to a whole other country without your family.
Yes.
You don't know anything about the country.
Did you have that conversation with your family?

(08:43):
Of course.
So my mom was like, no.
But my father supported, like he, he, he saw like the value of it.
Yeah.
It was also like very like from the very rare scholarships given by the government.
So the government sponsored the whole trip.

(09:05):
And it was something like, you know, like they pay for you and then eventually go work
for the government after that.
And these are not, again, this is a very, very few opportunities in Egypt at that time.
So my father supported, my mother was like, no.
And then we overruled my mother and then I went.
But it was an event that I think really changed a lot in my trajectory in general, like in

(09:25):
my life.
I can imagine.
I think like teenage years are so impressionable.
There are some things that can happen that can kind of change your worldview entirely.
I'm curious on the family front was maybe your dad or your mom or siblings or family,
were there entrepreneurs around you?
Like, was there any early signal that kind of showed you can just wake up,

(09:48):
think something, decide to create it, decide to send it and people buy it?
Like, what was that reference point growing up for you?
Like, I think the reference point was more like the culture in Egypt in general and like
the scarcity and the hustling mentality.
And to be honest, like so my father and my mother, they work like day to day jobs.

(10:12):
Like my mother is a teacher, was a teacher.
And my father like was working in a market sales in a company, day to day job, the same
job for all their lives.
And that's why actually I didn't learn what is entrepreneurship.
Like there wasn't, I didn't know what's entrepreneurship.
Like I haven't seen someone doing it, but I've always wanted to fix things since I

(10:33):
was really young.
And that's actually what got me into engineering because also like I like problem solving and
stuff.
And later I learned that this is called entrepreneurship.
So there wasn't really a clear model of that.
Of course, and it will be funny, but of course watching the movies of the social network,
you know, Facebook and stuff.
And then you start saying, oh, like this is a thing.

(10:53):
This is a thing.
And then you learn from it, which highlights the value of these type of things, right?
Like the podcast or like back home, people starting to learn the stories, like when there
are exists and stuff, and then they learn about it and inspire them.
Yeah.
So what was it that I guess, when was that moment that you were really exposed to entrepreneurship?

(11:15):
Cause this is your first try, although early thinkings of it, like where you start experimenting,
but you don't know that's what you're doing here.
You're just trying to fix it.
So, so I remember actually at school, I saw that there was a gap on selling actually nuts
at school.
That was my first actually project.
And, and it was in two weeks time, it was so successful that the school has to shut us

(11:38):
I swear, because we were, we were taking most of the revenue from the actual school store.
That is what you call the market pull.
That's the market pull.
In two weeks.
And then they shut us down.
They're like, okay, you either do this or get expelled.
So it was actually the very early.
Which one did you decide?
He was like, nuts is not ambitious enough for me.

(12:01):
Yeah, it's like the authority.
So we're like, we shut it down.
And then later, actually, I remember also, so in Egypt, in where we live, so there's
no like gas pipes.
So we used to have the butane cylinders for the thing.
So you wait so much for the guy to pass.
If he, if he, so that problem is like this, we have telephones and then why don't we,

(12:25):
so I told my mom and I was very young as well.
So they're like, I just need to print the phone number at our home on all these things
and then send it to people.
And then I would, I read that.
That's like a marketing.
Yeah.
And then she's like, what?
We're not going to be like the guys.
So people would call you and then tell you that they needed the gas.
And you're like, I'll get it right to you.

(12:45):
Exactly.
I was like, that's on demand delivery.
You were like early.
Yes.
I still regret not going ahead with that project today.
I think it would have been my biggest exit.
What year was this?
I'm trying to like place this.
That was like, like super early, 2003.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Okay.
2004.
Yeah.
So those, those were the early signs.

(13:07):
Right.
And then through university, I've also like wanted to do like the ride hailing stuff.
And then, so mobile phones were still not smart.
Yeah.
Very thing.
And then everyone told me like, like who would use phones for that and stuff.
The funny thing, and maybe I'll skip forward a bit.
The funny thing is that at work, they made this entrepreneurship exam at my like day-to-day job,

(13:30):
like the oil and gas job.
Okay.
And then from that exam, I scored so high in entrepreneurship that I said, oh, okay.
So it's called entrepreneurship and it's a thing and that's how you do it.
So what exam was this?
Sorry.
Yeah.
You did engineering.
Yes.
Then you went into oil and gas.
I'd love to unpick that a bit more.

(13:51):
Yes.
Um, yes.
So, um, actually, um, like I love math and science and stuff.
So the nearest thing for that, that earns us money is oil and gas engineering.
So I did engineering, uh, in Malaysia, that scholarship and I did oil and gas.
And ideas that you, I graduate, then I work on the oil and gas companies and earn pretty well.

(14:12):
So that's why they had the scholarship.
They like paid for you and then you go back and pay for it.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yes.
Um, and that's what actually got me into the oil and gas.
And I enjoyed actually working in the oil and gas for a bit.
So, um, when I graduated, so I finished like my school and then I did, um, almost, yeah,
six years in Malaysia, in Malaysia, doing oil and gas.
I would love to talk about the Malaysia experience.

(14:34):
So for context or maybe just, um, my ignorance in Malaysia, um, what's the language that's spoken?
There's a different from that in Egypt.
Yes, it's Malay.
Okay.
So Bahasa Malay.
Um, and, but in Malaysia, so rich experience because there are like different cultures.
Yeah.
Um, they live together.

(14:55):
So there's the, the Malay culture, the Indian culture, the Chinese culture.
And again, imagine someone living in Egypt all his life, only seeing Egyptians.
Yeah.
Like doesn't even know what, like there are other cultures that, that, that exists,
you know, like, uh, and meeting anyone from those cultures, like you see the movies like
Hollywood, but that's it.
So suddenly you are in Malaysia, three different cultures.

(15:15):
Bahasa Malay is the spoken official spoken language.
Did you speak any of that?
A little bit, a little bit.
Was it because of, does he have like similarities with Arabic?
Like they do.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you could pick a bit of that.
Yes.
But like, when you think about 12 years in Malaysia, I should be more fluent, but I'm
not because they all speak in good English.
Oh, okay.
So you don't need it.

(15:36):
Yeah.
And when you try to speak the language, so it's very tough to learn it, but Malaysia was so
rich because suddenly you see all these different cultures living together.
And at the same time, like being an expat in a different place, it's, it forces you to
meet all these other, other cultures as well.

(15:57):
And I think it's very, very important.
Like, um, like I, like, I, like, I, I can attribute that experience to being the person
I am today.
Um, not only actually in, in terms of, um, uh, like vision and in terms of like knowing
how the world works, but also in terms of empathy and diversity.
Yeah.
I can totally relate to that.

(16:17):
I mean, I spent some time living in Japan, Israel, South Africa, and just having that
real global exposure from where home is away from home just exposes you to just so many
rich cultures and understanding the way different cultures communicate and various nuances.
Yes.
Invaluable experience.
Yes.
I can't imagine like, like, to be honest, like actually those that drove my first actually

(16:41):
startup idea, but like I really wanted everyone to travel and see those different cultures
because yes, yes.
I was like travel in Egypt.
I'm like at that time, it wasn't even so much the location.
It was like, you kind of see like the networks of flights or like trips across Africa.

(17:02):
You know, that's it's harder to kind of be an outbound travel.
Exactly.
So that makes complete sense.
And Malaysia is a bit of a hub, right?
And so a lot of countries that you can travel to within Asia from Malaysia.
Yes.
So that makes perfect sense.
And I remember like the first time I traveled for leisure.
So I traveled for education, right?
And then there was the holiday and then people traveling.

(17:24):
So we decided to travel to an island.
Where did you go?
We went to an island called Perhentian.
Okay.
In Malaysia.
In Malaysia, it's beautiful, like it's such a lovely place.
But on the island, I met backpackers at that time.
And I bring this because first time is like, what is that?
What are you doing?
You're like, say that again.
Explain it to me.
You're like, yeah, I just like take my backpack and I'm like, yeah.

(17:49):
Are you going somewhere like to do something?
And for months, like for a few months, like you say, oh, like review.
Like what do you do in this year?
I carry all your possessions in one bag.
Yes, and it was, it was really an opener.
And then you talk to them and you realize, oh, like there's so much
to the standard model that we have in Africa where you're like, you study, you work,
you get married and like, and you know, and that's how it is.

(18:12):
Like, so it was an eye opener.
And I said, no, and I did that for a bit, right?
So I started like backpacking for a bit and yeah.
And I just wanted everyone to do the same.
A little bit.
So how did that idea turn into a business?
Talk to us about that journey.
Because part that fueled my idea about travel when I was younger is that it's for rich people.
So in order to travel, you have to book like an expensive flight and then a resort or a hotel.

(18:36):
That's what we know, right?
But then you suddenly realize that you could travel for a few months in Southeast Asia
with the, with the cost of, yeah.
And that's actually was the idea of the first startup.
So it started as a media company.
And then, oh, like a YouTube channel, right?
Okay.
Yes.
I want to, so the entire thing about the podcast, the startup leap is that there are people who

(19:02):
are in that place where you were pre the first leap.
Yes.
So they're probably like ruminating their thinking.
But then, you know, either slowly or all at once, it becomes more real.
So I would love, cause it sounds like yours was slowly,
since it was like a media company before it became like, okay, maybe this could be a business.
Yeah.
Before you picked up the first like thing to record,

(19:25):
like I would love to understand how that love became an action.
Yes.
That became like this microscopic representation of what eventually became.
Yeah.
This is a very good area to speak about because you will be surprised, but I had this very first
idea about doing that in 2009.
Yeah.
Uh, 2008.

(19:45):
Was this before, during Malaysia?
Okay.
During Malaysia.
Okay.
And it took me five years to shoot that.
Yeah.
Why?
Yeah.
What was it that stopped you from actually pursuing it?
Given you had the idea in your mind already.
That's the thing, because I think people don't understand that they can do stuff.
They think like, oh, like that guy did it, but because of blah, blah, blah, blah,

(20:06):
but they don't actually have the self-belief that they can actually do it.
And that haunted me for a while.
It's like, oh, I have all these ideas.
Like, I think I can do a lot, but then I,
I didn't dare to take the step.
How did you overcome that?
Put me out there.
So one of my dreams was actually to become a footballer as well.
Yeah.

(20:26):
Really?
Yeah.
So inspired you on this one.
No, that was my father when I was like two years old.
He's like, yeah, I love playing football and watching football and stuff.
So at some point, um, I just felt that I don't really have any need to become a football player,
but then I, I keep trying.

(20:47):
And then with some like training and that became older, right?
So university and then like started even like end of university first work.
And I started getting really better at it.
And then I said, okay, maybe I have a shot.
I was getting older, right?
And then I had an injury in my knees.
And when the injury happened, I understood that my chances are gone for a dream that I've,

(21:09):
that I've, I've, I've like, I've dreamt for so long, but I didn't really act on it.
Right.
Um, um, so I've learned that actually dreams has a timeline.
Yeah.
And then they expire and you need to act on them.
I love that.
It creates a sense of urgency in you.
Exactly.
Exactly.
It's like, oh, you cannot just dream about things.
Like if you want something, go get it.
It is, this is, I really resonate with that because I think that many times people

(21:34):
almost act as though life is guaranteed.
Yes.
I mean, that was an accident, but like so many things in life can happen where in that moment,
you just can't chase it anymore.
Exactly.
So you have to like, if you, if you want it, act as though you're on borrowed time.
Yes.
Yes.
I really, really like that.
Yes.
Yeah.
You learned that the window for opportunity is not forever.

(21:54):
And then if you think, if you have a great idea, it doesn't have to be actually in a
business, right?
Like, is there something you always want to do?
You should go and have a shot at it.
And it's always the regret of not doing it outweigh if you fail in it or whatever.
Exactly.
Something my father used to always say to me is what's the worst that could happen?
Yeah.
Just go back to normal life.

(22:14):
Exactly.
Yeah.
I love that.
One thing I would love to like learn a bit more about was why you felt you couldn't do it.
I really think, I really believe in the concept of self-efficacy.
You need to see someone else to somewhere in your brain, make the pattern that you too
can do it.
It's like, it doesn't, it doesn't even have to be someone that looks exactly like you.

(22:37):
It could be someone you relate to someone you don't feel out of reach.
So this is a theory that people talk about this, but I would love to try to understand
why that natural is because there are other people who just, you know, think things and
they're like, of course, sure.
They don't even face that roadblock.
So why do you think it took you a long time for you to believe that you could do it?

(22:59):
I think one, like one thing we didn't know is that important is like having a mentor
and an idol.
So again, like these are things that I believe if it changed in Africa, things could change
massively because the idols are footballers and like actors and singers.
So you've to all my life, it's like the most successful people are actually footballers

(23:21):
and like, and singers.
So there wasn't an entrepreneur example or an idol that I could actually dream of becoming.
So that's, I think that's why it took me so long to understand that actually, no, there
is like something that you could actually, people have done it before in different countries.
And we didn't have a lot of examples at that time in Egypt, right?
Like 2010, like in Africa, there was very few successful entrepreneurs and other entrepreneurs

(23:45):
or like successful businessmen are all family businesses.
Yeah.
So you cannot relate.
Like middle age, like you don't see like a young, the idea of like a young tech lady
or like a guy was not a thing.
Yes.
They all like family businesses.
And I think that answer is like, I think that's the answer.
And I think that answers your question.
Like that, that why I thought that it does not exist.

(24:06):
If we focus more on getting like an idol and like showing more these like, for example,
I think many, many entrepreneurs would come out of Africa and like,
But I think it's changing.
So that's good because you're, and I think in the era of technology as well,
you are seeing people sharing their stories.
You are seeing people's journeys actually, like when they start, how they kind of evolve.

(24:28):
And of course, I think that's positive.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Yes.
So you picked up the camera and start filming on YouTube.
So I was like, oh, so I cannot be a footballer.
And this like has, that dream has expired.
Because I had another dream to become a Nobel prize winner.
But we need to pick that up.
I love math and physics.

(24:50):
Like I love science.
But then that, when that happened, I suddenly like, okay.
So I brought on people to support and like, so Yara is like my,
co-founder in the business.
Was she the first, when you were thinking about the first people to support,
because you just said, I found people to support.
Now some people struggle with that bit.
Yes, of course.

(25:10):
Because first they start, they first haven't even like built conviction in themselves.
And they're like, I then need to go get someone else on board.
Was it a natural association for your co-founder?
It was just like logical.
Like if I was going to, if I'm going to try to do this, that's the person I do.
Or did you like seek her out?
I'm curious.
What was that process?
No, no, it's very like,
so I was speaking about this, right?

(25:31):
And the others, they don't know that these things actually exist at all.
So they are like, oh, it's not just like you have a,
I'd be in the hospital.
It's like, what are you saying?
Yeah, there's no reference point.
Yes.
So I was actually trying to convince my school friends to do this project,
but then they didn't really take it seriously.
Were they with you in Malaysia?
Or did they back home in Asia?

(25:52):
Okay.
Yeah.
But they didn't really take it seriously.
Yeah.
Yeah, until Yara, like she so like, this is actually,
So it was her enthusiasm that came to practice.
Yes.
Yes.
And she's very also like natural on the camera.
Okay.
Like, so I saw golden opportunities,
like someone actually who could be the face and run this.

(26:13):
So she was the face.
Yes.
Yes.
But you thought of it.
Yeah.
So I was, yeah.
So I was, I was one of the brains.
Like I was.
And you were okay with that?
Like the reason why I say this is because there's also often the dynamic between like,
founders.
Yeah.
And people who are trying to build something together.
It's like, who is the person who represents us?
And you seem quite natural in your,

(26:34):
oh, it was logical that she would be the face because she was natural.
She was a natural at it or is,
but many people don't often get to that place naturally.
So I'm curious about the rationale there.
Like, it's a learning process of how to kind of choose your co-founders and the dynamics of
working with the co-founders.
Like I'm happy to go through it now, like to discuss it now.

(26:58):
But I think working with co-founders and people actually, you know, like friends and family
that you know from before is very delicate.
And you need to do it a couple of times to understand how,
how like very complex the relationship is with a co-founder.
Right?
So it's more like a marriage in a way.

(27:18):
And then when you have a personal relationship.
So I have with Yara and with my current co-founders as well, it just complicated very much.
So you, I really don't know how to explain it unless you have to go through it and experience it.
So I've experienced that like four times, like almost like, yeah.
It means you've had quite a positive experience.

(27:38):
And I'm assuming, because I mean, you hear all these horror stories, don't do business with friends
and people tend to steer away from doing that.
So I'd love to understand, you know, what have you done to make it work?
So, I mean, we've tried a lot of things, right?
So along the four, like startups that I did, there was always this family or like friend member.

(27:58):
And you try different things.
So at the beginning, it's like, oh, like everything is like we're together in this, like, you know,
you're building and like doing the personal relationship with the work relationship.
And I think it's very, it's a very tough road to take because whatever it is, the ups and downs,
it will affect both. And then you're just putting all the eggs in the same basket.

(28:21):
So you like what I've learned is that you have to be very mature from the early days
and ask yourself a question is like, is that remove the relationship, remove.
There's also this, maybe the term I would say is a bit of, and I do, I'm doing it,
but I will say the term, there's a bit of laziness.
Yeah. And just going with people, you know, going to people that you know.
Interesting. That's a contrarian view, because some people would say like,

(28:43):
you know, you know, them, you've worked with them, you know, they're quirks.
They're the safest bet, but you're like, of course I'll say that as well.
I will say that as well. But it's, there's, there's definitely a bit of laziness because
you're, those are the people defaulting to what you're used to. Exactly. So eventually it's like,
are they really, really good at what they do or not? So if you remove this relationship

(29:07):
and you've met like 20 people, would you still pick them or not? You have to run yourself through
through this like mental and mind. And did you do that with the first company?
At what point, given that it's, this is your fourth company now that you started,
did you realize, okay, let's benchmark these individuals against, you know, others in the
market. So I learned from the first and second company, because you try, right? And then some

(29:34):
worked really well, some didn't work well, and then you learn from it. And then I guess when it
doesn't work well, the best thing is like to have the conversation and say, okay, like, this is where
we are today. And we need to build this for years. So do you want to continue and have this conversation?
A couple of times. Yeah. Oh, wow. And did it have an impact on the friendships longer term?

(29:58):
So I mean, we can ask them,
I like to think that if you have the basis of fairness in the conversation, and then it's not
like my way or the highway, just sit together and like run it together and try to find a common

(30:18):
ground. I would like to believe that most of these like conflicts has been resolved in a really good
way. Luckily, it's been resolved early on before like the business gets really, really tricky.
And luckily, I learned that lesson really early on. So the family and friends that I know that
we won't be able to work together like that. So we stopped very early. And I started like for,

(30:41):
for example, my fourth, so my, yeah, so I worked also with one, one of my friends who, who helped
me with a very early investment, but then he was, he wasn't really ready to jump full time.
Oh, I see. So at the right moment, we're like, okay, this is getting really big.
And I need all the help I can. So if you cannot come full time, so you have to,

(31:01):
and then we've resolved it as well. But currently in my fourth, my current startup, so I have like
two amazing co-founders. Yeah, we'll get to that. I feel like we've not even talked about
I'll just talk about the co-founding aspect of it. So, and then both your friends as well. Yes. So
I worked with also like previously with one of my friends like Zied and we did so Iara and now she's

(31:25):
luckily we all learned, right? So Iara is running an amazing Airbnb, Airbnb business is doing great
in Cairo. And then Zied, he's doing like a really great like scale up startup in Cairo Egypt.
So you all learned from the lessons. Yes. Like raising millions and millions of dollars and doing
really, really great. And Ali, a person also in my previous startup, Harmonica, he's doing all these

(31:49):
like businesses and investments and so on. So we've all learned. My current co-founders like
Bassem and the Sui, they have had similar experiences. They've brought their own learnings
as well. Which makes things so much easier. Exactly. So that's winning the lot. So now,
I love that. So yeah, so now you actually have someone who's really, really experienced and

(32:14):
have a lot of experience and you have the trust that you talked about and that's make things
perfect. Yeah. Okay. So coming back to picking up the video, you started the business and then it
evolves from being a YouTube channel. Talk to us more about that journey. So I think the gap was
just huge. Like you have this content. Again, we're talking about 2013, 14. So it's very early on in

(32:38):
Africa. You have this educating people that they can actually travel and this is what you can see.
It's very cheap. So it went like crazy, went like mad. So we became like the most viewed travel
channel in the Middle East in like a couple of months. It was a lot of hard work. So these are
the things also you learn is that, oh, like you can't become successful without hard, hard work.

(33:01):
Especially, I think like media stuff even makes it more deceptive because it just looks nice.
And they're like, oh, you guys look like you're having a good time. You're like, if you know.
Yes. No, it's a lot of hard work. I'm just picking up the camera.
And at that time, like, so after my injury, I said like, no, I will do this. Right. And I've always

(33:23):
believed that I'm a bit like, you know, gifted, you know, like at school, you know, you get high
grades and I was like, oh, okay. So I can do it happen. Like, no, and things will happen.
And I didn't register that you have to work really, really, really hard for things to happen.
This happens with smart kids. Yeah, exactly. It's a problem. Yeah.

(33:44):
Especially that from like high school to uni. It usually happens. Oh, I can get away with it.
So you had that for business. You were like, oh yeah, I don't need to do too much. Yes. And
then it was very clear early on that you need to put everything in. Like I remember like sleeping
two hours a day because I was maintaining my day to day job. Oh, you're doing that at the same time.

(34:05):
Exactly. Cause I cannot live without the salary. I didn't even know that. Yeah. Yeah. Because you
weren't engineer like during the day. Yes. And you were travel and again, like, remember like
the background. So I have to earn to, to live and like support my family back home. So it was very,
very important salary, right? That many are depending on it. So you can't just like,

(34:30):
no, be like, I'm going to chase this thing. Yeah. Which is also like also part of misconception is
that people think that, and even people sometimes use me as an example is like, oh, he left the
corporate and then he, you're like, that's not, no, he was still hustling. Yeah. Yeah.
Slowly leaving the corporate. Yeah. We've had other guests actually that have had similar

(34:50):
experiences where they're like, they're working out where their primary like work is and they're
trying to figure interesting. So when it started taking off, how was that tension, I guess with
your employer and then also even your co-founder, because I think also when you start something,
it's kind of controlled. It's nice. But when there's tension and pressure people, you know,
you start seeing other sides. So how did, how did you navigate that? Luckily, like the, like the

(35:15):
tension started. So we started, right? So we started like building the, um, like I'll get back to this
point of the, of the, like sleeping really, really like two hours a day and like working really hard
for like, I would say six months, like super, super hard work. And then use your holidays, weekends,
to travel somewhere and record and then get the content and then push it. It was when I reflect

(35:36):
back at this time in my life, I just don't get it. It was crazy, right? It helped. It helped that
my job was very like, like I used to do simulation, like, so you run models and then engineering,
and then like you get the just of a project of two or three months. You could do it in a couple of

(35:59):
weeks and then you can have that flexibility and for, for the job, here's my numbers, everything's
perfect. And you wait for the job to be executed. So that, that helped. Um, but of course, at some
point this started taking off. Um, and I started talking to my employers, like I would like to have
like six months off, you know, and they're like, why? I'm like, yeah,

(36:21):
and so even then you weren't going to leave completely. You just wanted time off and then
that default to come back at a point in time in the future. At that time, if you leave your work,
it was very hard to get back and then you lose the salary. So I was very hesitant and I was fortunate
enough that I could take six months off. Yeah. And so they, they granted you that time off.

(36:44):
Yes. Actually a year in your contract, you can take 12 months off. So I took the first six months
and then, um, and then we started getting these like, uh, sponsors and the business
exactly. It's very small. That could sustain the travel. Um, and that's when we started moving
it into a travel tech. How did that, at what point were you like, Hey, this traditional like

(37:06):
content model isn't going to work. Or was it more like there's an opportunity here. What was the
rationale, like the thinking from expanding to like a travel tech, given you both didn't have
tech backgrounds. Right. Okay. We didn't at all, but then we started learning that the, that the
content itself can only sustain, uh, travel. I think these are things we understood by common sense

(37:27):
is like, if you keep doing that, you can only get to that. And, and we, again, we saw an opportunity
like there at that time, we wanted to build a travel company where you actually say what you
want to do. And then the algorithms and the AI, like, but the technology didn't catch up. And I

(37:52):
think that's a, that's a, that's an on timing. Exactly. We were too early. So now, now I'm sending,
I see a lot of startups trying to solve that problem. I'm sending it to my co-founders.
Yeah. We're like, wow. Yeah. Only if we were 10 years. Yeah. Interesting. Market timing is

(38:13):
really interesting. It's very interesting. Um, how long did you run the tech, the travel tech
startup for? It was actually like that, that phase in my life was very, very rapid. So we did the
travel channel and after, like, I think within a year we started building the travel tech,
so the media and then the travel tech. And I remember also one of the episodes we were,

(38:35):
we, we filmed in like South Africa and that it went viral. So we were on TV or everywhere.
So there was attention on what we do. And I just felt that we have to turn this into a business.
Yeah. So we did the travel tech startup. We raised funds and this is another mistake, right?
I'm happy now that I can say all the mistakes, but then I started this travel tech. Um,

(38:59):
and after six months I started another company startup, because I was just full of all these
ideas and I, and I started seeing like the potential and I wanted to do many things at
the same time. And that was of course like something now, if someone tells me this, I'm like, no, no,
how did you navigate that telling your co-founder that, you know, we've been working on this travel
tech company. I've got another idea now. I think with my co-founders, like the travel business,

(39:26):
like started to pick up. So I managed to get like really like, um, um, more experienced co-founders
and then they were like, okay, like we can do it as well. So yeah, exactly. And at that time,
like Zia and Yara took it forward. And then I started the online dating business, but I spent
like almost a year on the travel tech thing. We raised funds before and like working on all the

(39:48):
funnels and everything and understanding how to actually address that market. And then I started
the third business. Uh, that's all in the span of two years. I have a question on the travel tech
one who built the tech. So we had all these bad learnings on how to, uh, how to hire.
And like, so you were just like scrappy, just scrappy, just trying to get it done.

(40:09):
Yes. Okay. And these times, um, there wasn't any knowledge in the region that I, that I,
I remember, like I, I watched all the Sam Altman, uh, YC videos, all of it, like, you know, like
one by one and taking notes and like, oh, so that's how you hire your team. That was the only
available data at that time. Um, and then you learn how to do it and so on, but it was a long

(40:33):
journey. Yeah. There's not a lot of information or mentors or advisors that can actually tell you
what you're doing is right. Yes. Yes. Interesting. So what was the second startup that was so exciting?
Yeah. The, so after the media travel and then that was the online dating. Okay. So did you go back
to your engineering role before you started that? Or so I took six months, I pushed things and then

(40:58):
I go back like two months. I take like a few weeks and I go back, you know, it was, it was like that
actually. You must have been very good at your job. You must have been very good. They're like,
we don't want to let this guy go. I had an amazing actually manager. It's very hard in corporate
to find the right manager. So I had like a great manager who, um, who I was an assignment in,

(41:21):
in Brunei with work and he really understood like how like good I can do my job. And he allowed a
bit of flexibility. Um, and yeah, but it's a, it's a, it's a, and that's actually where luck comes in.
Right. So if someone else had, if there was a parallel universe and you had a bad manager,
exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So now the dating starts up. I would love to explore

(41:45):
where that idea started from. So many people have, I think a perception of how you have an idea.
Yeah. It's like Eureka. Oh my God needs to exist. Like, you know, but I don't think it happens that
way all the time. Sometimes it's just like instant and intense. And sometimes it's like a slow burn.
It could be like an air warm where it's like this thing might make sense. And then you're like,

(42:06):
I'm leaning into it. So I'd love to understand what, um, I guess the anatomy of what that was
in your case for the dating stuff. Yeah. And I think different, different entrepreneurs are
different, but like for, for my story, it has always been like, I see a struggle somehow and
I see a problem. And then whenever I think about how big the problem is and what could be the

(42:30):
possible solutions to fix it. That's, that's, that's my key drive. So when you're trying to date and
you're like, this is hard. But that was the case, like in the course of the traveler, I spoke about
it and the media as well, the travel channel on the dating, it was actually my, my family. So like
women in my family, like, so we are very like, um, traditional Egyptian family. So women wait until

(42:57):
someone knocks the door or the mother goes and finds someone for them. Right. So it's arranged
marriage at its core. And then, um, so I was tasked to bring someone, you know, and then,
and you're like, I'm going to tell them. So my mother, she keeps calling me and is like, hey,
like, like talk to that. Like, have you met anyone? And so on for consistent like five, six years.

(43:23):
Right. And then at that time I saw in Malaysia that there was, I think, okay, Cupid at that time
in Malaysia and Tinder was starting to gain some popularity. And then immediately I was like, why
none of these apps are actually working in the region instead of me doing that task. I'm like,
really trying to, to, and I care because like women in the region, I find it very unfair that men

(43:46):
could actually go knock the door and then has the freedom. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And it was very
obvious because I have a brother and sister and I can totally see where a guy could just say,
Oh, I like this girl. Like, okay, I'll go talk to her father or like something like this. And they
can see many, many of them while the girl has to wait. And I find that very, very like unjust. Um,

(44:09):
and the pressure also that the community puts on the women to get married. And I didn't like
these two components, big pressure for them and ability to, it drove me crazy. It drove me crazy.
Like either or right. Yeah. I'm really, really curious because you speak about these cultural

(44:29):
nuances, right? And dating app must've been quite a taboo in Egypt. So how'd you go from having an
idea to actually making it into a business, raising money for it. Yes. Given how much of a taboo it
must've been and then getting the product in market and people to use it. I'd love to just

(44:50):
hear about that journey. Yes. It was, it was a very, very interesting journey because we,
when we, again, we started from a big, massive problem that impacted a big market. So at that
time there was like 10 million, um, um, potential users that would use the app right away. Uh,
if something like this exists, right. But then you look at the other apps, like the Western apps,

(45:12):
and you can see how there's a very, like a huge difference between like the problem and the
solution, right? There was a lot of cultural aspect that those apps would never get right.
And then that's where the idea come from. And that's where like, okay, if we build an app,
not copying, cause many actually started just trying to copy like something worked in the West.
It's like, no, no, no, let's just get back to the workshops. Yeah. Understand like the first

(45:35):
principles, like what is, why are they not using Tinder for example, at that time, right? Um,
and write that down and think of solutions. Yeah. I'm picked that because how did you actually go
about doing that? Did you speak to individuals that had used the other apps in the market,
like really want to understand the practical steps that you actually took in order to

(45:56):
understand, you know, why those other apps were not working in the market?
Yeah. So we did, so I did like, um, a research, you know, but like without the methodology,
cause I haven't, I haven't learned the methodology yet or I didn't have the means,
but I remember, so I talked to many girls, right. And they said, yeah, we will never use, uh, dating
apps because men are not serious and, uh, and stuff like that. So it's, it's a never, like it's not

(46:19):
even a possibility. So I started like a good, I had a big group of friends, uh, back home and then
I brought them, like we were going out and it was like, I remember there was like 12 guys. Yeah.
And then I was like, guys, do you know, like online, like, yeah, like, yeah, we use it sometimes to,
to find, uh, girls. And then I started writing down how they do it. And then I blocked it. So

(46:39):
I reversed engineers like, so it's like, if you want to like, uh, meet a girl to have fun,
and then like, it was like 20 things and I went to the team and I said, okay, let's reverse that.
So let's make sure that whoever used the app is not with that intention. Let's make sure that
whoever used the app is like reverse customer research. So what would you do engineering team?

(47:05):
Exactly. That's how we did it. And, uh, and it was, and the idea that came out of this was actually
brilliant at the time. So we came up with this like kind of exclusive conversation concept.
Interesting. It's like, if you, if you actually talking to one person at a time,
then you're serious because like, you're not talking to many, many girls.
And that's the way of filtering.

(47:26):
Social reality. Yes. Because oftentimes we were having one on one conversations.
Yes. Yeah, that's true. And the result of this, and that's why I always like tell like
young entrepreneurs is like, if they follow first principles, right? If they go find the problem
and try to figure out the solution, we had like a crazy product market fit. Like once that was out.

(47:49):
It wasn't like back to your question of the, of the struggle talking to this,
to investors, they were like, what is this? Yeah. And we had so many people saying, no, like,
what is this? And like, we, I remember what types of investors were they? So at that time, there was
like very early accelerators and a bit of few angel investors. And then I remember like recording

(48:10):
a video and sending it and they say, no, you're not, you have not been selected. And they select
like 20. And they're like, no, online dating will never work in this region. There's like this thing
about online dating. I think it's more for maybe Western online dating apps about how it's now
hard to actually build one in the current market because of the market dynamics. Yes. And there's

(48:32):
a whole thing about like some people owning more than one. And it's kind of really hard. The network
effects are just hard to compete with in retrospect. So this is more, this is not even about like your
dating app, but I'm curious, like, do you think there was a world where you, the dating app you
built could have maybe penetrated like other regions within Africa and could have kind of

(48:56):
created early network effects that eventually become disputes. Yeah, definitely. I mean,
that was the plan. So we actually built, and I'll go to that, like when we started going to the next
phase of building, but the idea was that the problem is actually universal. And it happens
more to cultures. So Western cultures, they like when the online dating app started, like with

(49:20):
match.com, it was done in a certain way. Right. And then people who didn't really like that way,
there was no other options. And eventually that became the standard. Even though,
interesting, even though there were other options we could have explored, but we just never did.
But now we have this standard and no one's moving away from it. Exactly. And then with Tinder, like

(49:41):
massive, Tinder also is a crazy story, right? Like with, with its massive explosion of usage,
it became the standard, right? Like, so you're swiping and it drove the industry into that
direction. I see. Until, so that's, that was the environment where we started, right? Like,
so hinge at that time was also starting to grow in the U S with, with a model that is more

(50:04):
leaning towards like Sears, but in the global South, I would say there wasn't, there was nothing. So
we, at that time it was brilliant because you could actually grow in all these directions.
And, and, and investors couldn't see that at that time. And they were like, no, Middle East,
it will never work. And yeah, because the bias was there. I'm not even in a negative. It was just

(50:27):
like, it will never, because that was your original thesis. Like you asked the women and they said,
never. Yeah. So it's like people will say never sometimes, but like they would do the complete
opposite if you give them the right thing. Exactly. And, and the funny thing is that we had on our,
so yeah, so, so actually we, we, so investors said like, no, no, no, and then we keep doing it. And

(50:48):
then I tried to use my work to spend on that person. I became very obsessed on solving that problem.
And I had so many trials and then because I don't understand how to build tech at the time. So I got
people, they build it and then it was wrong. And then I, at some point actually we saved some money.
And then that's when my friend Ali came in the picture and he like, I'll put this, you put this.

(51:11):
So like $1,000, $1,000. And then we hired this engineer to build it. And then she, she built it
and then she lost everything. So she lost her laptop with the code. There was no clouds.
And then we lost six months of money and work that happened so many times, like four times
with different stories, like hiring a developer in, um, uh, off offshore. And then after 80%

(51:37):
of the project, he just changed his mind. And it's like, Hey, here's the code. What I'm going to do
with this code. Like, right. This is so interesting because the journey and building a company is
never smooth. Right. And this happened four times. He had multiple hits. What was it that kept you
going hit after hit? That's exactly what was it that kept you going? And that's even with the

(51:58):
rejections that you're getting from investors, because oftentimes this can be very discouraging
for entrepreneurs, right. But there must've been something that drove you to keep going. I'm really
keen to hear what that was. The problem, like the women in my family, like, like whenever I think
that if I don't do this, then it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. And then they will keep suffering.
That was my key. So you're really driven by the problem, by the mission. Yeah. So, um, and yeah.

(52:23):
And I remember at some point after the code was gone, that was actually the third or fourth trial.
And then I remember for that night, that was the first time I said, okay, maybe, maybe that's it.
Yeah. Maybe I've tried. I did my best, but then that's it. I've been spending for my own money
and it's not going to work. But what changed me at the same night is that idea of like, who would

(52:44):
do it if you don't do it. It's kind of like you have, you don't have a choice. Yeah, exactly.
I feel like some of the biggest decisions of your life is not that you choose it is that the
alternative is not an option. And also like, I've, and I'm always saying this now is like, it's okay
to fail, but to know like you have done your best and then you've tried and then you failed.

(53:05):
So in my view, at that time I've tried, but I have not concluded that this is not a viable idea.
Like I'm okay to admit. So you have to keep going. You have to keep going and to stop when you
actually have that enough results to say that this is not a viable business, but not to quit
because you've tried and pushing it. Yeah. How long did the dating app, um, one go for? And I

(53:26):
think on the customer acquisition point, because with consumer startups, that was a different time.
Yeah. This is a different time. So if someone is trying to start up a consumer startup,
they're saying things they definitely cannot do and get away with. But then first 1000 customers,
2000, 3000, what were the hacks, tips, things that worked then that you think might work now?

(53:48):
So, so I'll get to that and through the story, right? So we, we couldn't find any investors
until actually at that time, like flat six labs, they were like one of the,
how far into the journey was this? We're talking like a year and a half, maybe.
But the, the, the year and a half before something says we don't have an app, we don't have anything

(54:09):
a year and a half. We're just like, have something that we need to test. Um, so luckily flat six labs
came in and when they came in, so there was this program. So we went in and then it took us three
months after that to build like the actual app and then, yeah. Was the accelerator process helpful?
Like it was very helpful. It was very helpful. Like for at that time it was yes, my third company,

(54:31):
but I did not scale a company entrepreneurship and it was very helpful at the time. So for first
time founders, I think accelerator is great. Um, so yeah, so because of all that and all the, the,
the learnings that happened, we lost the demo. There was a demo day for plastic slabs and then
we were supposed to get 1000 signups. So we launched it and then at that time also I,

(54:56):
one of my co-founders, her name is Shaymette. So, um, so when she, when she joined us, her key role
was to get us through the first 1000 signups. So she's been involved in the process and we build
it together. And then, um, she started talking to her friends like, Hey, like we need you guys to
test with us. We need, so we reached like a hundred, 200, 300. And then the demo day is actually

(55:17):
like three days far. And then plastic slabs checking with me is like where you are today is
like, yeah, 300 signups. Oh, that's not enough. Let's see. And then one night suddenly like I'm
sitting with my brother and then it's like, Oh, we, we actually, the app crashed. We lost,
we lost the servers. And like, I was like, no, like that could happen anytime, but not three days.

(55:39):
And then he looks and there's like, no, no, no, actually we're getting too many downloads
that actually have crashed. And we realize that we're going viral. Like we, we, at that moment,
every hour was like 2000 downloads. So what happened? Like a girl used the app and then she
spoke about it on Facebook group was like, Hey, like this brilliant, like the influencers, the

(56:01):
influence you were early, early, you were calling the trends on Facebook. Yeah. It was a Facebook
group. And then the girl used the app and then she said, la la la. And then suddenly all the,
the women groups started talking about it. And all those girls who said never the, yeah,
they like 30,000, we had 20 to 30,000 downloads until the demo day. It was crazy. It was, it was

(56:22):
phenomenal. I'm sure the demo day would have gone well. Yeah. Yeah. That is market. Yes. Yes. Yes.
But curious, because one of the problems you have with marketplaces getting both sides of
the marketplace to come on board. Right. And so, so you have the, the women coming on board.
Yeah. Were there the men and what data did you show at that point that demo day arrived?

(56:46):
So of course, on the demo day, like we had like all this virality happening by, by, by again,
like luck is involved. So we had like at the biggest show time, like a lot of the virality
happens. We had a lot of user base. So my DAO was high, my DAO was high. But at that time,
also early retention was high. But then exactly what you've mentioned is like the other side of

(57:07):
the equation, which is the many, it took some time to come. Okay. And our tech was not actually
built for that scale. Like I told the team to build something to 1000. Like what is this?
So we had, so again, after that high, we had the low where like retention was low, like we tried
to rebuild the tech and so on. And at that time, investors also showed us a very, very hard time

(57:29):
to come in. Even with that, many investors said, no, like this is still not going to work. And I
was just like, it was, it was funny because yeah, yeah. So you show them all this data and stuff.
And then a couple of investors said, no. Um, and I remember at some point after this,
it was going to go all come to a close because money was running out. And, um, I was also like,

(57:51):
I finished everything and like spending, and then the team was like eight people. And then
I couldn't carry on with the, with the salaries. Um, yeah. And I even like, I, I remembered that
day. Like I almost crying because like it's nothing else. It's hard because it's, you've gotten to
that point where you're like, I've done everything yet. It didn't work. Yes. Yes. And I think that's
a very good also lesson to, to investors to be very like straightforward and like kind of understand

(58:16):
the journey and to, at that time, I think what broke me is that like an investor who almost like
was there to, to term sheet and like, and then they just like, and then on the last minute,
they're not even replying. Yeah. And it's okay to, you know, like investors to be in the
conversation as long as you are in the conversation. Yeah. It's the middle ground. That's like,

(58:40):
exactly. Yes. Is the first best answer. No. Is the next best, but like that.
And then like, I remember those things very vividly because it was very emotional. And then the,
a couple of hours later, I got this email from 500 global is like, Hey, we're investing. And like,
yeah, it was, it was a life kiss at that time. And I really believed in it. You know, like if it's,

(59:12):
if I don't believe in it, it's fine, but I really believe in it. And yeah, there is this history.
Like, so how did you get the men on board? See, cause obviously he had the women. Yeah. What you
understand later is that men follows every supply, every marketplace. This is the one that you get
first. And everyone will follow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(59:35):
So, um, and what happened after that is like, so I went to the U S and learned scaling. I learned
that. And again, here's where I, I found the references to all this journey. I didn't really
find references. So with 500, you did the accelerator in San Francisco. Yeah. I was
lucky to go there and, uh, and there I've met all these like, and this was your first time to the
U S first time. What was that experience? Yeah. It was first time in the U S. Uh, they remember

(01:00:00):
it was the first time. Uh, yeah, absolutely. It was the first time. Um, and the energy,
the peer support, the mentors, the information that changed. It was, it was amazing. It was like,
oh, so this is where all the things happen. Um, because in, in flat six labs in Cairo, there wasn't

(01:00:20):
amazing founders, but it was so early in their journey. Right? So you find like there's a couple
of startups like, uh, like was off was there was like pioneering Visita, you know, like all these
amazing founders, but it was very early in their journey. And I think they pushed us a little bit,
but we needed to see like the billion dollar companies. We need to see those people. Like,
I remember having a conversation with a guy who spends $200 million of, uh, of marketing,

(01:00:42):
you know, in a year and you're like, Whoa, what are you doing with you? Like, it comes back to
what you were saying earlier. You can't be what you can't see. Right? Exactly. You need to be in
an SF being around those founders. You can only go that far. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what
that program did to me is like, I went back and I, in my mind is like, this is a global play. Like,
why am I trying to only work on Egypt? Like this is a global play. So it really opened your mind

(01:01:06):
and your ambition. Yes, massively. And it also taught me the profession because being an
entrepreneur is a lot of art, but it's also a profession. So you need to learn how to do it.
Right. And I see, I, I say that in the future, we're going to see people who actually become
like entrepreneurs after like maybe operating or whatever. It is a profession. There's

(01:01:30):
an art and the science to the job to do it. Well, yes, that's true. There's only as far as you can
go without actually doing the profession. And I think like I was lucky in that program that I
started to learn the profession. And then I was lucky to test that in a, in a market that is
growing with lots of numbers to start learning about like all the different phases, like the
product market fits, like what is, what is the clear science of that and how to push different

(01:01:52):
levers to re to go to the next stage, how do you scale and so on. So, so I loved that. And I went
back and yeah, and I scaled it to like become like the dating app of the middle East. You
come back with huge ambitions. Talk to us about match group and how the acquisition came about.

(01:02:14):
So, so at that moment, so now we are early 2019 and we are the number one dating app in the region.
Um, and at that time I was raising actually around to take it, take it global. Yeah. So they started
reaching out and they're like, Hey, like, let's have a conversation. And I was like,

(01:02:35):
and what are you thinking about acquisition at any point in the journey? I love how you like
no hesitation. I was thinking about it. Like the team always like tease me because one,
one time in the very, very early days, like I wrote on the board, like our, like our journey,
like this year we need to get 200,000 users. This is where to get to a million users. And then I

(01:02:58):
drew like a couple of, and then I said three years and then here's the acquisition for match group.
I love it. Yeah. So you saw it, like you, you had that in mind. It was, it was clear, but it,
in that industry, like it was like very few players who acquire. Um, and I just saw it something in
the future because I wanted to build and I can see the potential of what I'm building. And then

(01:03:18):
did you foster the relationship with them then, or did they come to you? Yeah. So they, they reached
out and they said, Hey, we'd love to see what you're doing. And then we had all this like great
conversations, um, uh, with the team. Of course, it was very nervous on my side. Your dream,
they are literally on your vision board and they're like, Oh my God, where was the business at the

(01:03:40):
time they approached you for acquisition? Cause I also think that, you know, influences the posture
of the relationship. Yeah. So like there's a lot of, of course, there's a lot of numbers that
we'll be able to share, but we were at the size of like, we are growing in the middle East, like
we've proved to be in multiple market. Yes. Yes. And we are actually, um, the, the, the player,

(01:04:02):
yeah, the key player to win, to win that market. Um, but it also, we're too early. We're still
early, you know, so they're there, they're, they could help so much on the journey. Okay. And I
think, yes, I was nervous, but eventually when you, when you always focus on what you're building,
everything becomes easy. Like when you, so I was focusing on what I'm building and where I want to

(01:04:22):
take it. And, and that was running those conversations. So I wasn't like, yeah, there was times actually
where, um, they, I was advised. So I had a couple of conversations and then I flew to meet the team,
uh, in, uh, in actually in Paris and, um, we were just so like aligned on what we're trying to build

(01:04:42):
and alignment is exactly exactly. And they saw us like as a, as a good partners. Um, and at that
time I was advised to get a professional like investment banker to run, to run the process and
so on because like I'm negotiating from the other side with people who are like experts in this.
The information is symmetry is crazy. Exactly. But because again, because I just believe so much in

(01:05:07):
what I'm building and where I needed to go, I went through it on my own with the support of my amazing
investors. Like, uh, so my investors at that time was amazingly supportive on like, okay, like we,
we follow your lead and the team aligned as well. Did they super aligned as well in retrospect,
would you have done that again? Yes. Um, because I believe it was not just the, um, the financial

(01:05:32):
aspect of it. So the financial aspect was, was amazing as well. Um, but it was more of they,
the group, and this is something I have to say, like the group just to have like a lot of wealth
in the experiments we have done over the last 20 years, you cannot really like, yeah, it says like,
I mean, you can definitely compete, but like you cannot just have that on the table and leave it.

(01:05:53):
Yeah. Oh, okay. So it was really valuable. It's super valuable. So, and that's what I say actually
for people who like try to get my advice on like, okay, we're now at an exit stage. We had this
offer from a company, shall we do it or not? And then, and then my key question at that time is
like, is it, is it, are you planning to stay in the company? Like what stage of the company is
there? And what value would that acquire? Bring like, are they gonna like just divert, like move

(01:06:19):
the company somewhere that you really don't want it to be? Are they going to change all the
management and do it something else? You have, these are the keys. Plus of course the financial
reward, um, especially if you care about the company. So that, that matters a lot. And my
advice is like to stay in the room for weeks and make sure that the integration also goes smoothly
because it's not just like it's done. No, no, it's like, I think that the exit itself or that

(01:06:45):
acquisition process itself is very tough at some point, but it's not like what happens after is
actually the real thing is like the integration. How can you make sure that the newly acquired
company is on pace with the group, the culture, and to move ahead aligned with why they
acquired you? Right? Was it an acquisition? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was an acquisition. Like the

(01:07:09):
investors made good returns. We as founders, we made good returns. I know you probably can't
share because you had hinted at this about that, but I'm curious more on the feeling because we've
had a similar conversation with like other founders, just trying to understand that exit.
As a founder who hasn't had an exit before, when you have an exit, especially when it's meaningful,

(01:07:31):
and I want to believe that with this match group, it was, I would love to kind of get a sense of
your psychological, emotional state and the evolution of that as you kind of thought about
what next to do. I think I never spoke about this. No, it was, it was like an insane time in my life

(01:07:52):
because you, you know, your life would change massively. Like I come from like a very, like I
said, like middle, lower class family. And I know that my life would change massively, me and my
family. And I know that with that, I would have actually the freedom to do whatever I want to do.
Yeah. And that's a, that's a key like event in your life. Right. Um, and I knew that and,

(01:08:16):
but during, so from just how high the stocks, the stakes, sorry, stocks as well.
I was such a good one. You're a big member of the stocks.
From how high the stakes it is. You, um, you, it's just a very, very, like from how high the stakes,

(01:08:41):
it's just a very, very emotionally heavy process. So that's why, like, I think the advice to get
someone to run the negotiations is actually a very valid advice, but you have to be very
emotionally stable. And I remember like during the negotiations, like there were days and days
where I just like doing nothing, but actually focusing on, on that. Um, but then when, when

(01:09:02):
that happens, um, I enjoyed that so much, but then one day and I started working again, which is,
which is insane. One day, like half a day. Um, because we, after that I stayed as a CEO, right?
And I was just thinking, yeah. And that makes a lot of sense because if you spend one day and

(01:09:24):
go back, you're like, this might be a milestone, but it isn't done. It is literally just started.
Yes. I like that. I really a lot with that. Yeah. And also because at that time we had like a,
a great, like active user base and did the entire team remain? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, um, they,

(01:09:45):
they gave me like the autonomy to run it. But then with a lot of support coming from,
from the group that you want, it's just unbelievable. Like it's just like, you get to have a lot of,
for me, the experiments is that it's the hardest thing to recreate because other things you can
learn from other companies. Yeah. So, um, uh, yeah. So I knew that there's still a lot of people who

(01:10:09):
could use the app or not using it yet. And now that I have this, I should be able to reach those
people more. So that drove me for the, again, the mission that drove me next. How long did you stay
at match groups for? So, so the next day, like I went on and started like building in the building
mode and like, no, we have to take this to the next level. Um, and then I stayed two years plus,

(01:10:31):
plus, and also it, it, I think one element here is that, um, I wasn't in a group that is very,
very like, um, um, it was listed, it was like 40 billion dollars, public company, and then suddenly
you are like a CEO with other CEOs. So there's Tinder, there's hinge, there's okay, Cupid,
amazing like, um, uh, teams. And then you are at the same level and you should act on the same

(01:10:56):
level. So that kind of pushed forward, like the need for me to learn and to be on that level.
Right. So learning everything about like governance, like accounting, like legal, like, oh,
we cannot just pay the vendor. Like, no, it cannot just pay them. And scaling as well, of course,
like how to, what to do before you scale in the markets and like the research that has been done

(01:11:19):
in that way. And like, what is like how to judge if that actually economics is going to work or not
in the long term and how much you should invest for that. So I've learned like amazing, amazing
lessons with the group. Yeah. It's something that I, that I, that I'm always like, I feel fortunate
to learn that much in the group. Yes. Fantastic. I was just wondering,

(01:11:39):
we think it's forward transition to the next startup because you've done quite a few.
It's like in retrospect, when you did the travel tech, you would not have known if they told you
that all of this was going to happen. Like if you went back to that summer, it was like,
yeah, I think the dating office probably, yeah, your future told me like, you're probably right.
Interesting. Okay. But that's actually also what I, what I always want to say before like we move

(01:12:03):
to the next topic. That's why I always say that luck is very much like underrated. Yeah. So you
could be the most brilliant founder and like you could have the most brilliant business modeled,
but then you need that little bit of luck. So it's, it's a lot of hard work, right? It's also
also talent and skill. Yeah. But then there's an element of luck. Yeah. And you overcome in my,

(01:12:28):
in my view, you overcome that element of luck by doing it so many times. I was about to say
that you increase your surface area of luck. Like you do it enough. And I mean, for much,
there's a saying and some people agree and others don't, that startups are bought, not sold. Yeah.
Like the acquired is the C-value. Definitely. And that value was compounding over time. You had
paid the dues. Yes. You're on the team. So yeah, incredible. So two years after like the acquisition,

(01:12:56):
where did Monzl start? What was the early anatomy of Monzl? Was it an earworm? Was it like an intense
thing? Was it a thing that was clear from day one? Was it something again, like a problem you face?
So it would be good to get a sense of how you. So like I follow. I guess just to also add to that,
when you started it, did you have the desire to build again? Once it was sold, like once I'm on

(01:13:18):
it, I feel like you would never stop building. There'll always be problems. And you're like so
anchored on the problem. So it's like, somewhere like 11, like a hundred years old, you're like,
that problem. Yeah. I took, like I took, I, the plan was to take a year off. Yeah. And then I was
actually planning. And the plan also to become actually an investor. Okay. Interesting. I was

(01:13:42):
very flirting with that idea. And I was like, okay, like there's a lot of these entrepreneurs
that could help and like put like some agent investments and so on. But, but just a couple of
like weeks and that problem has been, I've been looking at it for even a year or a year and a
half before, but I said like, I'll put it aside. But then whenever the time was there, I started

(01:14:04):
seeing like, no, no, no, like this has to be fixed. The problem actually started with why
access to credit is super hard in Africa. So I, at that time I was trying to buy properties and so
on. And I was like, Oh, but the cash I could use somewhere else. And I've lived in Malaysia and
I've been to the U S and Europe. So I know how easy it is to get a mortgage in these countries.

(01:14:24):
Why is it super hard to get a mortgage in Egypt? Right. And that was the drive is like, why? And
then I started like doing a little research. A couple of hours, just a little research in my room.
Like reading, reading, reading. And then I started getting obsessed with the problem.
And that's when I luckily, my co-founders like Besson and the suite, we were like the same

(01:14:49):
co-founders from the, from the, but we know each other for years. And I said, so they missed the
chance to come on. Well, here's another chance. This is, this is actually, they are at that time,
they were doing like brilliant things on their own, so they couldn't really join. But that time
we said, okay, like this problem is really big. And we believe that this is amazing team. And now

(01:15:10):
is the time is right to do it. So I followed the same process and this is like advice for
entrepreneurs, like start from the problem, like do a proper research, you know, do smaller
experiments to test. And yeah, that's how Manzil was born. So just to, to, to also talk a bit about
Manzil. So in Manzil, we figured out that actually very, very few people have access to credit in

(01:15:32):
Africa. But when you look at the ratio of people who own homes and cars, it's very different. So
in Egypt, like 70% of families actually own homes. And then these 70% of families cannot get credit
from banks to do investments, to use their money, to spend on education. And that's where it's like,
okay, you have this asset. We have to do this exactly. So if we could figure out a way for

(01:15:54):
people to use those assets to finance, like their, their dreams and their needs, then that would be
actually what we need to fix. So that's what we're doing. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. On the name. Yeah.
Manzil. Yeah. Where did that come from? Like, so how did you ideate on that? I always love hearing
stories. We did a lot of exercises. Yeah. And then none really clicked. Manzil is actually a home

(01:16:25):
in Arabic. So we started like looking at this was one of the suggestions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Suggested it. And then suddenly we tested it and then everyone was like, Oh, yeah.
And then everyone was like, okay, this is, this is the one. Yeah. This is the one. And we tested it
and it went, it went well so far. Yeah. So the team, yeah. Two friends. Yes. You've known them

(01:16:47):
for years. Yes. How did you decide that they were the ones to come on board? Especially with what
you said earlier, that there's this interesting balance between we know each other, we trust each
other, but like, are we right fit for this problem? Yes. So the, like the, the, we knew each other for
so long. Right. And we've seen what we have done. Yeah. Um, we've actually worked briefly in certain

(01:17:11):
like advisory projects. But then when we, when we realized that we all like the space that we're
going to work and love that and that we know it, so we have the trust and we have the capability,
then it's, then we have to do it together. Right. And we set the boundaries at the beginning. It's
like, okay, so we will, there's a personal relationship, there's a business relationship.
How do you draw the line? And I'm just, I think it comes to understand that. Yes. I think it comes

(01:17:36):
with, with a bit of experience and a bit of values. Yeah. So you always draw that line in my, like in,
in harmonica, like how I, when I existed, my brother was my co-founder. Um, oh wow. Yes.
And I learned early on that I have to draw that line very, very professionally in order for this

(01:17:56):
to stay. Because no one wants like, if you favor anyone or if you fail to deliver professionally
because of relationship, no one wants that. Neither you or the person or the company,
like it's best for everyone to act very professionally. So that's what we do. So we,
we, we work like very with high integrity, very professionally and, and they put the standards

(01:18:18):
very, very high. Yeah. Raising the bar. Yeah. They all, they worked in like brilliant companies and
they built brilliant things. So we have, so what I love about this is that it's like a melting pot
for all these different experiences. How many co-founders are in Monzo? So the few of us. Okay.
Yeah. Um, and their experience and skillset, uh, fit, right? So that's also very important.

(01:18:40):
Like I have other people, but yeah, but they are like the, we cannot do this together. Yeah.
Okay. Interesting. So another thing is maybe from an education standpoint, because a lot of the time,
many people don't understand the problem of credit in Africa. Um, how is, how would you say it's kind
of different and like fundamentally, because I can see a thread across your experiences, like

(01:19:03):
you take this really incredible global models and then you like contextualize it locally. Yes. And
like make sure that it's locally relevant. So I'm curious what, what, what are the nuances I would
say, um, in the credit industry and then how you kind of thought of that off the back of Monzo
that went into its early development at the early stages when you were defining. So I mean like

(01:19:25):
financially, like the, the continent's still very early on, right? Like in the developed world,
there's like the bank system is there from very, very early on the financial institutions there.
So it's still early on. So that matters so much with credit because like with opening bank accounts,
the problem is slightly easier with transferring money accounts, the problem is likely easier

(01:19:45):
because it's more like, you know, on the credit, but with credit, with the lack of all the credit
data, it's very hard to take a credit decision. So that historically made the banks very, very
restrictive on who to give credit to. So they would be like, no, you have to earn that much.
You have to work in this industries. So that's why, like, like I said, like less than 8% had

(01:20:09):
access to credit. So that's a very, very like unique thing because of this early markets.
So what we understood is that people have a lot of assets to be equal to the lies done.
These are things that they have built through the years and the honest and like they can show
and they have the salaries as well to pay. So we don't just like let them do it. Yeah.

(01:20:30):
But it gives so much comfort for the banks and the, and actually the lenders to do that when
they actually, there isn't an asset back. Yeah. And then in my view, that's actually the most fair
way to lens because with the other ways of lending, the NPL is quite high. So of course the banks are
very restrictive, but then they came up a lot of fintechs who are actually lending, unsecured

(01:20:52):
lending, but then the interest rates very high because it's not adjusted to the risk because
there's no insight on the risk and you can price because of that. Exactly. Yeah. So you just kind
of give this high and the rest is relatively high because people don't have like assets to,
to, to control. So if they haven't paid, so I see that the rest of the people are paying.

(01:21:15):
That's an interesting way to think about it. Yeah. Exactly. We are subsidizing exactly.
And that's also like, why would you do that? Because if you have an asset,
why would you subsidize others who are not paid? Like just collateralize that and get the best
rates in the market. So we made it cheaper and easier for people actually to do that.
And I'm happy where we're starting because we're starting at a very interesting,

(01:21:37):
at technological times. So if you could actually could use the mobile penetration and the AI aspect
of it and the grid scoring engines, models that we're building is actually could get us,
I believe into a new wave of, of lending. We believe that if we could convert a home and a car
into actually a wallet, then that would be very disruptive. Oh, I like that. And it's nice because

(01:22:02):
this is a very, um, developing market problem because if you go to the U S or here in London,
the home equity loan is something people know, right? But then this whole product is new to
Africa. So if we could package it in a new model, like a, like the wallet, like imagine,
so we're talking to customers like, Hey, imagine your car and home is in your pocket. And then

(01:22:23):
you will throw money when you want to, you return money when they want to. So it has that appeal
with consumers as well. So yeah, I actually, um, so excited for the future of the market creation
opportunity actually, because like having access to like the aggregated data and stuff like that,
you could unlock a lot of insight and value for customers themselves. Um, yeah, that sounds very

(01:22:44):
exciting. And like, luckily we started like building, um, uh, around that. So we started
to get like the early believers, like, you know, like, like my investors and like the other
investors coming on board. Um, because it's just that the problem is big and we're excited about
solving it. It will take time, but we're excited to solve it. I'm really curious because this is a

(01:23:05):
highly regulated industry and the previous businesses that you built have not been within
regulated industries. You don't necessarily have that FinTech experience. However, you've assembled
a really great team. So how did you think about building on, on your team, bringing on board
individuals to fill in those gaps? Given that, you know, you are great when it comes to like consumer

(01:23:30):
and product adoption and so on, but the FinTech piece, like, how did you think through that when
you're assembling the team? Um, and then this regulatory piece as well. Yeah. I think there's,
there's definitely so much value in having a team that understands like FinTech and coming from the
industry to solve the industry and disrupt the industry. But I've always like believed that an

(01:23:53):
outsider brings a fresh perspective. You're not bounded by the preconceived notions. You see like
first principles and then you look from the outside and then, and if you could mix both, so if you
could, so like being an outsider, that helped us so much with all these skills to start going in
and disrupting that, that market. But of course that gap has to be filled, right? So we are a

(01:24:15):
team of like learners. So, uh, like I, so I, I read so much, did some research, I actually
enrolled for a couple of degrees. Like, yeah, again, amazing times like Coursera, like, you know,
like you could, I think that's one of the benefits of this time. Yeah. The issue is not access. It's
like creation. If you know where to go to exactly the amount of knowledge you get. Yes. So that,

(01:24:40):
of course, part of it, but all the conversations, because we like in the exploration phase,
I've talked to almost everyone or like regulators, like banks, any of eyes, you know, to employees,
to customers. So from the conversation, you learn so much. So, and I'm starting from a point where
I didn't know what's, um, like the, how to calculate the industry. So I started, but over

(01:25:03):
the last like year and a half, like it just like, yeah. But also now we are at the time we are,
we're complimenting the team was like experts. Okay. So yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I'm curious,
how was fundraising this time? Um, when did you start fundraising for the, like the first round

(01:25:24):
learnings from the previous experiences? Was it easier? I bet it was as a serial entrepreneur,
or maybe more less hard instead of easier. I would love to understand how you approach
the first round. So that was my expectations. Yeah. Um, that, that says a lot. You're like,
I thought so too. Um, but it wasn't, no, it was very different, um, than those expectations.

(01:25:49):
So the timing was a bit off when we started like doing the fundraise. So that was the time where
the global economy started slowing down and all the VCs were like, oh no, like we have to,
and the stock market was all crashed. So it wasn't the best time to go on and fundraise.
And to overcome this, we started like going and taking this very like early ticket that can push

(01:26:13):
us like angel checks to get us to the next. Um, I think that very first ticket was from my previous
investors who have made like, Oh, we'll believe in us. They know you, they're like, whatever you do,
I'll back it. And remember we are starting from a space where the business model was still
beginning curated. So I remember the very early, uh, uh, investors, they were like,

(01:26:38):
well, you're great. And there is something there, but like, but like, how exactly is this going to
make money? So it took us a while and I enjoyed that process actually of exploring and getting
where we are today. And that's where we started to bring you like more like, you know, institutional
investors, but it was very tough time. And this is something I always say to investors in the

(01:27:00):
region, like in the middle East, it's an ecosystem that is maturing. Um, and you as investors, well,
are maturing and there are things that there's important feedback to listen to from entrepreneurs.
I completely agree. Yeah. And I think, and I think what those like, uh, investors thought at
that time is like, no, Egypt now is not a good place to invest. You know, like this is a down cycle.

(01:27:20):
There's economical problems and they just focused on this year.
Well, ignoring, so even if we're in the down market now, it's going to kind of like, I also
feel like risk is like that is risk is exactly like, like you have to do something that's
contrarian. That's different. That everyone is not doing for you to be able to get those returns as

(01:27:44):
different to the market. And that's what curated. I love that period because actually the good
investors would invest at those times and the good entrepreneurs would build at that time. And that's
where you get deals away from the noise. Um, and so that's why I'm very happy with, with, uh, with
my current like investors, like they came at the right time, uh, with, with much, much less noise.

(01:28:05):
So, yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Well, that's great. We often wrap up the episode with a few questions.
Sure. Do you want to go, Yvonne? So Samir, what would you be doing if you weren't building
men's or now, uh, I'm not playing football. Um, yeah, I, I guess I would, uh, I would have tried

(01:28:27):
to work to improve like how the, the government's work in Africa. So how could we use tech to
improve like the government entities, like government has so much power in Africa. So
if you could bring all the skills, I think it would be very, very efficient.
Interesting. And, um, time machine, you're in a time machine. When did you start the first startup?

(01:28:52):
The, what year? 2014. So we're going to 2014 now and it's open and you have 30 seconds to
tell Samir something. 30 seconds. So I think like believe in yourself, like just keep going at it.
Um, if you have the right model and if you have like the, and you believe in yourself,

(01:29:15):
you can do it. So just keep going at it and do it. Um, find a mentor, uh, speak to that
mentor to guide your directions. Um, of course, like how to choose a co-founding team. So, uh,
spend more time on that aspect on how to choose like your, the team that would carry the company
on. Um, yeah, those are the things that I was going to say, but also enjoy the process. I think

(01:29:41):
at that time you get stressed, uh, very easily.
Amazing process of learning and exploring and you should actually enjoy it. And it's very enjoyable
and get your lows, you know, like, uh, slightly higher and get your highs slightly lower. Um,

(01:30:04):
yeah. And enjoy the process. Fantastic. I love it. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you Samir for joining us on another great episode of the Startup Leap. Follow us
at the Startup Leap and until next time. Thank you for tuning into another episode of the Startup
Leap, TSL for short. Leave a review. Tell us what you think of this episode on all of our platforms

(01:30:29):
at the Startup Leap pod. Do you have a question? Ask us and we'll ask our guests. Go to the
StartupLeap.io. See you next time.

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