August 12, 2025 • 45 mins
Geoffrey M. Roche, MPA, is the son of a nurse, healthcare expert, diversity advocate, and education enthusiast, presently serving as the inaugural North America Director of Workforce Development at Siemens Healthineers. In this role, he leads all national workforce development strategy and partnerships to advance a sustainable future-ready healthcare workforce. Roche speaks often on healthcare workforce topics at global conferences such as Becker's Annual Conference, HIMSS, HLTH, ASU+GSV, HolonIQ, and ViVE. In 2022, Roche was nominated to the Forbes Business Council for his national level work.
Roche has over 16 years of experience in hospital and higher education leadership in the United States. He has served on various boards and committees, including the United Way of North Carolina, United Way of Lebanon County, United Way of Pennsylvania, and Patient Safety Committee for WellSpan Good Samaritan Hospital. Roche also presently serves on the JFF Corporate Innovation Council and the Goldman Sachs Horizon Inclusive Growth Corporate Network, representing the healthcare industry.
We're diving deep into the concept of belonging today, and let me tell you, it's a big deal! Our guest, Jeffrey Roche, really nails it by emphasizing that creating a sense of community in the workplace isn't just a nice-to-have; it's a must-have for keeping people engaged and happy. He shares some solid insights on the challenges leaders face in making their teams feel valued and heard, especially in the wild world of healthcare where retention is becoming a real headache. We chat about how asking the right questions—like, "What could we change to make this place better?"—can spark some powerful discussions and lead to actual change. So, grab a comfy seat and tune in while we explore the nuts and bolts of building a workforce that feels like home, rather than just a job!
This episode dives deep into the crucial topic of belonging in the workforce, particularly in healthcare. We kick things off with a vibrant conversation featuring Jeffrey Roche, the director of workforce development at Siemens Healthineers. He shares his journey from being the son of a nurse to leading initiatives that shape the future of healthcare talent. One of the standout moments is when Roche emphasizes the need for organizations to create environments where every employee feels valued and heard. It's not just about filling positions; it's about fostering a culture where people can thrive. Roche reflects on his experiences, highlighting that even before the pandemic, there were underlying issues in the healthcare sector regarding employee retention and engagement. He articulates the stark reality: the healthcare industry is facing a looming shortage of workers, and unless organizations start prioritizing their cultures and the well-being of their employees, they'll continue to struggle. He encourages leaders to actively listen to their teams and implement changes based on feedback, making it clear that a people-first approach is not just a nice-to-have but a necessity for sustainable success.
Takeaways:
- A big part of leadership is lifting others up so they can reach their potential, which creates a supportive culture.
- Listening to employees about what they want to change in their workplace is crucial for improvement and growth.
- Belonging in the workplace isn’t just a buzzword; it’s about making everyone feel valued and included, and that’s essential.
- Healthcare leaders need to adapt to workforce changes and focus more on people-centric approaches to retain talent.
- Creating a culture of gratitude and psychological safety can significantly enhance employee engagement and satisfaction.
- The future of healthcare relies on diverse and engaged workforces that feel they belong, which ultimately improves patient care.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Frankly, all of us have ourduty and our responsibility to lift
others up so that they canachieve what we have achieved. I
think that's the piece thatgets frustrating for me is I truly
don't grasp why we can't bemore people focused. It just. Yes,
I understand it's not easywork, but it's not that difficult
(00:25):
for us to simply sit there andlisten and ask people, you know,
if we could change one thingabout this workplace, what would
you like it to be?
Hi there and welcome to theStep Up Expert Voices for Leadership
Growth. I'm your host, KentKnievel. Every week I talk to experts
who focus on helping leadersstep up their leadership game. If
(00:45):
you're new to the show, thenon whatever platform you're using,
I encourage you to subscribeso you never miss an episode. One
last thing, As a leadershipdevelopment consultant and executive
coach, I have a particularinterest in supporting recent internally
promoted leaders. If that'syou, or if you support a leader who
has been recently promoted, Iencourage you to visit my website
at Kent Coach Playbook anddownload a free copy of my 90 day
(01:07):
blueprint filled withpractical advice for you or the leader
you support in hitting theground running and truly stepping
up to their new leadershiplevel. Without further ado, on with
the show. Welcome everyone.Today we are talking about belonging
as it pertains to workforcedevelopment. And with me today is
Jeffrey Roche. He is thedirector of workforce development
(01:29):
for Siemens Health and Ears.Welcome, Gregory. Welcome to the
podcast. Thanks for joining me today.
Absolutely. So good to be here.
Yeah. Well, as per usual, Ilike to start with hearing a little
bit about your career storybefore we get into our topic. So
I would love to hear how didyou make your way into what you're
doing today?
Absolutely. Yeah. So obviouslyI always tell everyone I'm son of
(01:51):
an incredible nurse. Thatcertainly had a huge impact on ultimately
what made me choose and havethe privilege of serving in healthcare.
Followed my mother, but notclinically served in a hospital,
actually served in the samehospital as my mother for just under
a decade. She wasn't thereactually when I was there. She had
moved on. But, you know,really neat experience. Started in
(02:14):
a professional level roleactually where I was the hospital
spokesperson and had theprivilege of also being responsible
for all of our externalrelationships and partnerships with
the business community, ouracademic partners, as well as others
within the region that weserved and then also through special
assignment of our presidentand CEO, had the privilege of working
closely on our culture,employee engagement, and really how
(02:36):
we were viewed internally. Sothat we could improve both our internal
and our external perceptionand reality of who we were as an
organization. Then had theprivilege of serving at two different
college and a university onthe President's cabinet doing a similar
level role but on the academicside that's really where I got a
lot of experience particularlyin sort of the leadership development,
(02:58):
executive education side ofhow a university could partner with
industry to thinking aboutthose issues and solving for some
of those challenges from aretention from a leadership development
succession planning and thenactually served at a startup that
was doing all that work in thehealthcare space which was a really
neat opportunity workingglobally, many different countries
(03:18):
around all aspects ofleadership development education
and certainly upskilling,reskilling, done some consulting
work well in both educationand healthcare and you know, obviously
for the last several yearshave been fortunate to serve at Siemens
healthineers in an inauguralrole. Focus on how do we help our
hospitals and healthcaresystem customers think through their
(03:41):
biggest learning anddevelopment challenges as a trusted
advisor, help them envisionhow you can build a sustainable future
ready workforce and reallylean in on sharing best practices
and helping them connect toopportunities that are supportive
to them.
Nice. I forgot for just aminute that your sort of headline
on LinkedIn is Son of a nurse.Right? And so I don't think we had
(04:04):
a chance to talk about thiseither but I am the son of a teacher,
right. And it just connectedfor me that I don't think about that
often enough that knowessentially part of what I do is
teach and coach and you know,I, I don't know that I credit her
enough for that and I, Idefinitely credit her for my typing
skills. She, I remember thehum of the IBM Selectric at our dining
(04:25):
room table and she had kind offoreseen how computers were going
to become central to work andI, I had no choice but to get good
at 10 keying and so I have, mytyping skills to this day are pretty
fast. Yeah, that's fun. Sotell me just before we get really
into our topic, tell me alittle bit more about the chart.
You know, I think you talked alittle bit about it, but I would
(04:46):
love to hear just a little bitmore about the charge of your current
role.
Yeah, so I mean when you thinkabout it, right, I mean there's been
a lot of reports, 20, 27, 2030others that are highlighting this
massive shortage that we'regoing to experience in healthcare
and it's a shortage that'smultifaceted. I mean one, you have
(05:07):
certain experiences in certainacademic programs that have Less
enrollment or less completionas compared to other years. You also
have, particularly our babyboomers who have served in healthcare
for a long time, making adecision to retire. And you have
less retention all throughouthealthcare. And so all these three
(05:30):
factors have a dramaticeffect. And the reality of it is
that it's an industry that'schanged so much. And it's also an
industry that's not alwaysbeen the best at being really people
focused. And a lot of that isjust historic. We didn't necessarily
have to worry about peopleleaving traditional healthcare employers
(05:50):
as much before the pandemic.People want to say the pandemic is
what caused this. It didn't.This has been a problem for a very
long time. In fact, in myhospital administration days, we
were wrestling with it andworking to solve it. It's a place
where we haven't been flexiblearound shifts. We've introduced new
technologies without everactually asking those who are going
(06:11):
to use them why and how used.It's a space where we have never
really dealt with the issuesof burnout and done so in a people
focused way. And so we've gotall these factors that are coming
in. And so a lot of my work isreally to help a healthcare system
think through what does theirecosystem of workforce look like?
(06:33):
Where are they currentlygetting their future healthcare professionals?
Are they strategicallypartnering with Both K through 12
and higher education to reallybuild a future ready workforce? Are
they thinking about new andemerging themes in the healthcare
space like apprenticeships,which have worked so well in the
building trades, yet we'vebeen so slow to adopt them in healthcare?
(06:56):
Are they sitting at the tablewith the program accreditors on the
higher ed side who may bestuck in the mud or stuck in the
80s or 90s or maybe evenbefore, and challenging them respectfully
to move forward, reallythinking through those types of matters
and then also really beingwilling to challenge them on if we're
(07:17):
seeing specific challenges inan imaging department or a lab department,
or certainly in the radiationtherapy space through the work that
our colleagues at Varian do,being willing to say to them, hey,
have you thought about yourorganizational culture or your employee
engagement? Because obviouslywhen we have the opportunity to be
on site and listen and learn,there are things you pick up on.
And so you can't just build asustainable future ready workforce
(07:40):
if you also don't address thecurrent issues within your organization.
And so just being there tokind of respectfully challenge that
as well.
Yeah, I think if I were tothink about, you know, because I've
done Some consulting here andthere with, with healthcare groups
from a leadership developmentperspective. And interestingly, a
lot of people, especially onthe, the provider side, nursing doctors,
(08:03):
specialists. Right. They getinto it as maybe a bit of a calling.
Right. And so I guess myquestion to you is like, have we
been relying on healthcarebeing a calling on the provider side
and not necessarily, I thinkkind of to what you're saying here
maybe not been as intentionalon, you know, from a, I don't know,
(08:26):
org development perspective orwhat have you on culture.
We certainly have, you know,relied on, you know, certainly that
aspect of a calling because weknow, you know, for so many, particularly
those that are in the babyboomer generation and, and others
have always said that in manyways is either a calling or they
followed the footsteps of amother or father or family business.
(08:48):
Yeah, you know, very common.We've also relied on the fact that
the benefits have always beenso historically rich, you know, a
great benefit package inhealthcare systems or other healthcare
employers. But obviously ashealth insurance and other dynamics
of the market have changed,that's not necessarily the case anymore.
You know. Yes, at one time italso was one of the most PTO rich
(09:12):
places, you know, because youcould get a lot of weeks, but now
you have employers in otherspaces that offer unlimited pto.
And so, you know, you can'tcompete with that. You can't compete
with the idea where you couldwork remotely versus having to work
in person for 12 hour shiftsversus being able to work remotely.
So you've got a lot ofdynamics. You know, I'll give you
(09:34):
an example that I always thinkabout is there was a Texas healthcare
system that was reallychallenged with some of these issues.
And a colleague of mine, thiswas actually in the nursing space,
but a colleague of mine wassaying to them, you know, why can't
you think about changing themodel of the hours and still envision
(09:59):
how you can give thembenefits? Yes. In times, you know,
they have to have a certainnumber of hours they work to get
part time. But really this wasa situation where they're saying,
well, if it was two hours lessthan what you currently give for
part time benefits, whywouldn't you be willing if it meant
you could retain them? And thehealthcare system was like, we just
(10:21):
never thought about that. Youknow, I think it, you know, it's,
it's these types of, types ofthings that also we have to be thinking
about. And a lot of that isthat they've been fortunate to be
more of an employer approachversus what's also the Best interest
of our whole community. Andthat's. That's what I think is. Is
important within this type ofcomp conversation.
(10:43):
Yeah, that's interesting. I'veseen plenty of that in food service
and retail as well. Right.Managing the. Those hours like a
hawk and trying not to dipinto benefits territory. And yet,
and yet out of the other sideof one's mouth complaining about
retention and how hard it isto find good help. You know, interesting
(11:05):
what might happen if you tookcare of your people and thought about
your role as part of thecommunity. So I know, you know, we're
going to talk about, or we'regoing to jump into sort of talking
about belonging here, but Ithink the connection to culture and
everything that you're sayinghere is as we think about the challenge
of retaining people, how do wemake. I guess maybe I'm putting words
(11:25):
in your mouth, but how do wemove in this direction of ensuring
that this is a place thatpeople feel like they belong and
are. Maybe I might even takethe leap here and say they're a part
of this community here. Sowhat has brought belonging sort of
to the forefront for you?
Yeah, you know, it'smultifaceted. Particularly, I'll
(11:47):
say is, you know, when I lookback on my career, you know, there's
really only been one trueorganization where I felt like I
belonged in many ways, feltlike there was intentionality around
building a community. Yes,there were times where there was
disagreement, but so often wewere all rowing in the same direction.
(12:12):
We may have rode a littledifferent at times, but we were truly
passionately committed toachieving the work that we were doing.
And that was in my hospitalsystem. What I noticed when I look
back on that, as somebody nowwho's also in a doctoral program
in leadership, that there'sjust so much to be said about a leader
or an executive team thatreally wants to engage all levels
(12:36):
of an organization in thinkingthrough these matters and also solving
for them. You know, Iregularly tell the people that I
can vividly remember us doingexecutive rounding where one of our
executive leaders would roundwith a people leader like myself.
And the whole idea of that wasto literally be listening ears. Our
only job was to go out andtalk to other colleagues that were
(12:57):
on the front lines and makesure that they were being supported,
make sure that their needswere being met, and at times for
us to ask them if they coulddo something different about our
system, what would it be? Andthere were so many powerful examples
of solutions and ideas thatcame out of that that were both Facility,
sometimes related, that werepeople related, you name it, that
(13:21):
was just very, very different.And so I can always kind of come
back to that. And then servingin other organizations where I've
seen leaders not care as muchabout people, not have a culture
that has any sense ofbelonging to more of a us versus
them or an elitist type ofthing, you know, you name it and
(13:43):
I can, I can. You know, as Iwent through this journey, I can
remember a couple years ago Iwas at an event in Denver, Colorado,
and you know, this was, it wascalled the Courageous Imaginator
Summit, which was just afantastic title. And it was, you
know, chief human resourceofficers and leaders from academia
(14:03):
and leaders from employersfrom the healthcare space and people
involved in the arts andculture and you know, music and very,
very eclectic group. And therewas a speaker there that asked, both
posed the question to us that,that has always stuck with me that
said, what could you, or whatcould someone else be covering in
(14:26):
their workplace aboutthemselves for fear, retribution,
whatever the case may be, orwhat are they covering at home, or
what are they covering atchurch? Or what are they covering
wherever about themselves? AndI remember walking away and thinking
about that was such a powerfulquestion that also gets at this idea
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of belonging and mattering so,so much, but also gets at the both
personal and professionalnature of who we are as individuals.
And you know, that was a soulsearching moment for me because all
these years I've been sowholly committed to this. But I wondered
like, what am I covering? Andyou know, through that process, an
incredible process, not aneasy, you know, very challenging
(15:09):
process, very mental healthfilled process, I was able to realize
what I was covering. And whatI realized was that so much of that
was also embedded into my fearof being in communities that wouldn't
necessarily show me value,appreciation, respect, understanding.
(15:30):
And you know, ultimately I hadto be, you know, I had to accept,
but I also had to feel thatcoming out as a gay man after living
my life as this heterosexual,you know, father of three children,
married at the time, you know,to a woman, you know, just that whole
element of all of that. Andyet certainly in many ways took,
(15:54):
not that I'd say this oneevent, but certainly in a big significant
way. And so when I start tounpack a lot of that, truly Ken,
I start to think about howmany other people are in that exact
situation. And then when Ithink about here, where we sit today,
where we have people who aretrying to erase people or tell people
(16:15):
that they really, really don'tmatter, it not Only infuriates me.
But when I think about themental health aspects of just what
it's like having been throughalso greatly concerns me. And for
me, there's no one better thanfor a leader in an organization,
regardless of level, toacknowledge the opportunity and the
(16:40):
moment they have to break itor to, or make it for another person.
And I'm just fearful there'smore break it type of leaders than
there are make it today. Andso, you know, that's some of the
thoughts I would share.
Yeah, there's so much that yousaid in there that I want to dig
into. So one comment I want tomake and thanks for sharing your
(17:00):
personal story. You know, I'vehad the, I guess, luxury of representing,
you know, the, the centerednorm, so to speak. Right. And, and
yet I've, I've had experienceswhere I don't know that I feel like
I belong. Right. And one supershort story, I'll keep it very short,
(17:23):
that kind of stands out. As Iwas entering into this organization
and my manager who knew me hadsaid, hey, this organization's not
very colorful. So basicallywas asking me to tone it down, like
tone down my personality orwhat have you. And so I would say
for, for six months I did thatand I was miserable. And the moment
(17:46):
I started just giving myselfpermission to be myself, everything
improved, not just my ownsense of belonging, but in, just
in general how people receivedmy work and you know, my consulting.
And I did feel like I belongedmore when I once I gave myself the
permission to just be myself.Right. But, but you know, I want
(18:10):
to acknowledge while tellingthat story, I represent kind of the
centered nor, you know, whatwould the commonly agreed upon, I
guess, you know, centered normand luxury that I have is to give
myself that permission to justbe myself as well. Regardless of
what I was told this, thisculture internally might be. There's
something you said at thebeginning. Not the beginning, but,
(18:32):
but you know what you, in youranswer to my last question that I
want to come back to, which iswalking the floor with some of the
senior leaders. Right. Kind ofwalking the floor and talking. Because
one thing that I've talkedabout with folks is it's one thing
for senior leaders to say whatthey want the culture to be.
(18:53):
Yeah.
And to be trying to drive somekind of a culture. But if you don't
walk the floor and hear fromyour people what the culture currently
is, your ability to transformit, let alone support what might
be a working culture is goingto be, you know, in conflict, it
certainly can be Shaped anddirected from the top down, but it's
(19:19):
lived and breathed right fromthe bottom, bottom up. Right. And
so if you don't have yourhand, your finger on the pulse of,
well, what is the culturetoday? Because the diffusion from
senior leaders to the shopfloor, so to speak, can be. Be pretty
huge, right, what we say atthe top and what's actually happening,
you know, on the ground level.So I was happy to hear that. I'm
(19:41):
just curious what yourexperience with that dichotomy of,
here's what we want thisculture to be and what is actually
happening today.
You know, I think so.Certainly, at least in. In that experience,
what I observed was there wasso much of a culture there that was
(20:07):
built on, we are all in thistogether. And, you know, the team
members felt inclined toliterally share anything and everything
with that executive. And hewas such a fantastic leader that
as he would hear from them andhe would elevate whatever they shared
to wherever or whomever, hewould make sure to go back to them
(20:33):
and let them know what wasdone. Because he always, you know,
he didn't forget where he camefrom. You know, he started in food
services. And so for him, youknow, the idea that he went from
food services all the way toan executive vice president job,
never wanted to be a CEO, butmade it to the top of where he wanted
to be, he wasn't going toforget that. And I think today, you
(20:53):
know, at least it's been myexperience, those leaders are rare,
and that should not be thecase, because all of us started somewhere,
and frankly, all of us haveour duty and our responsibility to
lift others up so that theycan achieve what we have achieved.
And I think that's the piecethat gets frustrating for me is I
(21:15):
truly don't grasp why we can'tbe more people focused. It just.
Yes, I understand it's noteasy work, but it's not that difficult
for us to simply sit there andlisten and ask people, if we could
change one thing about thisworkplace, what would you like it
to be now? Yes, you've got tocreate psychological safety for them
(21:36):
to be able to honestly sharethat with you. Which, again, we had
in our organization that was,you know, and that was before we
even talked aboutpsychological safety. But we had
so much, you know, we had somuch. And I think a lot of that honestly
started because of how ourexecutives were. You know, we would
go into meetings where we wereinterdisciplinary, you know, groups
(21:57):
working on things, theexecutives, in most cases, there
were some who are. Who are notGood. Don't get me wrong. But in
most cases would say to theteam, I want all of you to share
your thoughts before I sharemine. And they would wait until the
very end. And when they didshare, they were more summarizing
what they heard and givinginput to where they think they were
(22:19):
going to recommend or anaction they were going to take based
on what they heard. Theyweren't just telling everyone, well,
whatever you shared was great,but here's what I'm going to do.
They were really taking intoaccount that. And so I think there's
just. There has to be a moreintentionality focus. Intentional
focus on that. Becausefrankly, we all have seen it in our
(22:40):
careers. People closest to thework absolutely know what needs to
happen.
Yeah, well, and I kind ofthinking about belonging, your story,
and even just thinking aboutthe brief story I was giving. Right.
That when you feel like youbelong, your engagement, your work
(23:00):
production, your ability todrive, belonging for others, psychological
safety, there's so manyconnections to what that unlocks.
So as a, as a critical driverfor culture and kind of coming back
to where we started, which is,you know, looking at this future
of, you know, there's thisprojection of there being a shortage
(23:24):
of workers in the health careindustry where you're working. So
how are you doing trying topull this through your work, pull
belonging and culture throughwith your consulting work and how
you're trying to helporganizations, I don't know, reevaluate
or drive this?
Yeah, you know, many ways it'sreally a matter of asking questions,
(23:47):
bringing it up, you know,particularly the reality in healthcare.
And again, this is thechallenge we sit. Where we sit today
is much of these types oftopics have been so, as we were talking
about earlier, linked todiversity, equity, inclusion, which
again, I don't understand inany way why that's become such a
(24:10):
bad thing, other than it'scoming from people who, in my opinion,
are filled with hate, to bequite honest. But I do think that,
particularly in healthcare,because of the whole federal contracting
piece and the aspect ofMedicare and Medicaid, you know,
hospital systems and otheremployers have had to really think
(24:30):
carefully about how theyapproach these matters. And I think
it does represent a greatopportunity in conversations that
I have with them to reallythink about it as community and think
about it as belonging andthink about how it is and what it
is that you need to do toreally lift up everyone in your community
(24:53):
and give them a voice, allowthem to feel that they're heard,
they're valued, they'reappreciated, they're respected. Allow
them to feel like they own theorganization. And what I mean by
that is allow them to own thework that they're doing and you want
them to achieve. And when theyneed to grow from it, you grow from
it, you learn from ittogether. Allow them to feel like
(25:15):
it's not just work, but it'salso joyful and it's impactful and
they're getting to see theimpact of the work that they do.
And I think also make surethey feel that they matter. And so
a lot of it is really askingleaders what they're doing in this
space. How are they leveragingtheir ergs, what are they doing from
(25:37):
a policy perspective? What arethey doing to ensure that there's
feedback on leaders that ismanageable and also accountable?
What are their practices?Everyone in healthcare wants to talk
about, they care aboutretention. But we know people leave
bad leaders and frankly badmanagers. They don't really leave
organizations generally. Andso what are they doing to unpack
(26:01):
that when that happens? Whatdata are they truly reflecting and
looking at and what are theydoing to hold those managers accountable?
I think there's just, youknow, it's those types of things.
And then on the other side ofit, it's also still respectfully
encouraging them andchallenging them to not give in to
(26:23):
what is considered right now,you know, a very hate filled agenda.
Because you know what you doneed a diverse workforce in healthcare.
It's the only way to achievehigher quality and better service
for our patients. When youhave somebody that can relate and
resonate with a patient, ninetimes out of 10, the care quality
(26:45):
does improve because theyunderstand their specific needs,
they live those specificneeds. And so it's just a very, very
different matter. And so don'tgive up on finding access and opportunity.
Whether it's different typesof connections into communities,
whether it's engaging morediverse public schools or private
(27:07):
schools, whatever the case is,there has to still be intentionality
around this. And frankly, forthe chief legal officers and regulatory
folks, be willing to stand upand talk about that this is still
the right thing to do. And bewilling to go to court if you need
to over these matters becauseit is the right thing to do. Lives
(27:30):
depend on it.
It's interesting because. So acouple quick reflections on that.
Let me start nearer term,nearer in from today. I think you're.
It's interesting watchingthose organizations who are going
public on either side of thefence, right, with we're abandoning
what we're doing or we'redoubling down on It. And watching
(27:55):
how the public is reacting tothat. Right. So that's. It's in.
It's interesting to observethat maybe even in my own. Literally
in my own backyard inMinnesota, as I reflect to my time
that I spent in dei. It was alot of rapid change in a short amount
(28:18):
of time. I was in DEI from2019 through. Or early 2022. And
what I felt in a very shortorder, it. We started from this place
of always needing to share theROI of what we were doing, how it's
good, you know, how diversity,equity and inclusion, all three.
(28:39):
Right. They are individualthings, but also interrelated things.
Right. Diversity can sometimesin an organization be summed up as
the numbers and how we'remeasuring people. Equity being, you
know, are people getting whatthey need as opposed to just equality
being. Everybody gets the sameand inclusion does Everybody. You
know, I think inclusion andbelonging, sometimes synonymous,
(29:01):
sometimes defined separately.But, you know, do people feel like
they're included here? Canpeople's voices be heard? And when
I, When I started my time inDEI again, I feel like there was
a lot of, like always talkingabout the ROI as we were working
on rolling out just aboutanything. But in this short span
(29:21):
of, you know, three, fouryears, at least in the organization
I was in at the time, therewas such a pull for it. There was
like, give us more. Like, giveus more particularly around equity
and inclusion.
Right.
That's. That's what, you know,the organization as a whole wanted
more. And, and there got to.We kind of got to this place of we
(29:42):
don't have to be sharing theROI as much because it has somehow
gotten to the core of. It'sthe right thing to do. But I feel
like the train, you know, thetrain switch, the track switch has
been flipped back to probablyback into ROI land. Right. Of have.
Of getting more transparentwith sharing how this is good for
(30:05):
business, how it's good for society.
Yep.
It's just a. You know, I, Ithink about that from time to time
with where we're at today.This sort of like two steps forward,
one step back kind ofprogress. Right. And I. What's interesting
is the thing that has sort ofcaused the most angst trouble agenda
(30:30):
today has been the D indiversity, equity and inclusion has
been the numbers and theprocesses that companies have put
into place to try to reflecttheir community. Right. Having been
close enough to that work, notdirectly involved, but close enough.
Close enough to it. You know,I know what has been said about it.
Right. And trying to talkabout again, roi but how it's good
to represent your community,how that, how that affects who you're
(30:53):
selling to and customer baseand all that. And we've seemed to
have, you know, be in thisplace where companies are throwing
the entire thing away andabandoning the equity and inclusion
and belonging aspects becauseof what might need to be a recalibration
around one aspect of it. Whenin my own opinion, I think if I were
(31:16):
to think of what went wrong inthat space, perhaps if we were to
say is look in the mirror, isthere anything that we could have
done differently? In theconversations that I've been having
with folks, I don't know thatwe were ever as transparent and vocal
about what we were doing andwhy and why, you know, particularly
on the diversity front. Right.I think we were very. Because it's
(31:38):
just such a dicey area andthat's where I'm seeing a lot of
companies pulling back from.So I know I covered a lot of ground
there. But just curious whatyour reaction.
Yeah, no, I think you're. Ithink you're right. And I think in
many ways it's actually verywell connected to the same thing
that learning and developmentfaces, which is that we, you know,
we have normally reported, youknow, the number of students in a
(32:01):
program as compared toreporting and aligning our learning
to business strategy and howwithout that learning we wouldn't
have achieved those businessresults that quarter.
Right. What was learned?
I mean, you can, you canabsolutely articulate that, especially
when you partner with afunctional unit and say, hey, what's
(32:21):
your biggest challenge thisquarter? What can we do to change
that? Put a program together,you know, get some intentionality
around that, study it, get theresults, et cetera. I think the same
thing really is important inthis space too, because the difference
I think is you have to,because of how polarized society
is, you can't just assume youcan present it as a nice to have.
(32:45):
It's got to really bepresented as a must have. And I think
to your point, there are someincredible results that some organizations
have seen, have experienced,but that story has just not been
told enough. The story hasbeen fabricated to, you know, think
that there's, you know,specific numbers that an organization
(33:07):
has around this number of. Imean, yeah, I'm sure some people
do. Right. But in most cases,most organizations were just, in
my opinion, trying to do abetter job at career and economic
mobility, you know, try and doa better job of lifting up their
community to try and do abetter job of better articulating
(33:28):
how to Approach solutions inone community as compared to another.
I think it's just the natureof where we are today. But I think
to your point, what we shouldlearn from it is let's do a better
job of telling the stories andlet's ensure we have really effective
(33:49):
data that's measured andevaluated. And let's recognize some
people are just going to benaysayers and they're hate filled
and we don't have to worryabout them because you know what,
at some point we got to viewthem as just the wind that blows
because they're just gonna,they're not gonna come along and
they're not gonna be willingto come along.
Yeah, yeah, I, I'm glad yousaid. I used to say, so I, when I
(34:13):
rolled out an allyshipprogram, I used to say, I don't think
I'm that interested inconverting the unwilling. I want
to double down on those whoare willing and the. I want to pull
the fence sitters off thefence onto the side. But in terms
of, you know, where the effortis best spent, you know, progress
(34:33):
is found going with those whoare willing to go.
Absolutely.
So I want to bring this backto belonging just for a minute before
we get into our advice sectionbecause, you know, again, I think
everybody wants to belong.Right. And I think if we were, and
this is, it's so much easierto talk about in one to one or, you
know, small group settings.Right. That there is always a room
(34:55):
I'm sure that you've comeacross in a week or a month, you
know, literal rooms thatyou've been in where there's probably
at least one room where youfeel like you haven't belonged. Right.
Or you just didn't belongthere. And I feel like those have
been some of the bestconversations that I've had when
I, in my time in DNI istalking about inclusion and belonging,
is to say there probably isn'ta whole picture of inclusion and
(35:22):
belonging. It's where do you,where do you need to be included?
Where do you feel like youbelong or you don't belong? And how
do we make improvements, youknow, in those smaller spaces even?
And I think, you know, as wewere talking before, you know, I
feel like belongings shouldbe, you know, a very acceptable thing
(35:43):
to be talking about. Um, soI'm just curious, you know, as we're
kind of getting towards theadvice section, where are you trying
to take this, you know, where,where are you seeing your next, you
know, 6, 12, 18 months, youknow, going when you, when you think
about this.
It really does come down tothere has to be a lot more work to
(36:04):
educate leaders at all levelson their responsibility around this.
Because what we know iseveryone desires community. Even
if you're introverted, youstill desire community. You just
desire in a different way ascompared to an extrovert. And so
we've got to really be focusedon it. We've got to ensure that it
(36:26):
fits our specificorganization, whatever that looks
like. We have to be willing tohold people accountable. And so.
And we have to be willing toeducate because ultimately, you know,
when you have community,there's just so much that can be
experienced there. You know,we can learn about one another's
culture, we can learn abouttheir specific stories, which helps
(36:49):
us to learn why they do whatthey do. It's also where we see imagination,
creativity and discoverythrive. It's where we see, I mean,
and it's been studied. It'swhere we see business performance
significantly improve. And soI think it's, you know, it's time
for organizations to reallyunderstand those matters, get engaged.
(37:13):
This is also where I oftensay, you know, you've got to have
the board and the shareholdersalso understand why this is important
because they need to hold theexecutive team accountable to these
things. It's one of thereasons why I argue regularly that
fiduciary of a board orshareholders also is people. You
can't just say finance,because without people, there is
(37:35):
no finance. And so there hasto be much more emphasis, you know,
from that end as well.
Yeah, I know I keep sayingwe're about to get to the advice
section, but keep coming upwith things I want to ask you, which
is. So one more, and thenwe'll get to that. Because I know
where we started here was youwere. You were talking about the
healthcare industry, which iswhere you've spent the bulk of your
(37:55):
career in this sort of, youknow, evolution or need in the healthcare
space. I don't thinkhealthcare is alone, right, in the
need to focus on culture andbelonging, but I would love to, before
we get to the advice section,kind of wrap on in your known domain
of health care. So where, youknow, how are you, or what do you
feel like the future has tohold? You know, looking at this future
(38:22):
of workforce shortage and, youknow, how are you trying to push
the needle when it. Or movethe needle when it comes to culture
and belonging as it pertainsto addressing that future workforce
shortage?
Yeah. So I'll say that I thinkwhat I'm finding is that every time
(38:44):
you have this conversation,there's so many more light bulbs
going off. And so last fall Iwas fortunate to bring together a
number of healthcare leadersfrom different systems and really
delve into this at a nationalconference, first in like a workshop
type of fashion and then at adinner. What stuck out to me was
(39:04):
how emotional these leaderswere and yes, their strong desire
and commitment to want tosolve for these issues, but also
how challenged they felt thatthey weren't getting executive buy
in to really want to or needto. And so you know what, what really
(39:25):
sticks out to me is so many ofthese leaders and these functions
have been charged withimproving retention. You think about
hr, you think about L and D,you think about org development,
even like the mental healthand wellness area of some, you know,
some roles have those areas asfocus too, but you can't do those
(39:45):
things if you also don't focuson belonging and mattering. Yeah,
you know, it's, it's commonsense. And so if you're a leader
out there saying, well, youknow, I don't understand why we're
struggling retention, well, ifyou don't have a practice around
these things and you're notholding leaders and professionals
accountable, if you, if you'refrankly continuing to ignore what
(40:09):
are truly some of the mostimportant issues, and let's not forget,
for the younger generations weknow these issues become even more
important on how they evaluatea workplace, then, then you know
what, just have the suckyretention, because you're only going
to continue to have it andit's only going to get worse. And
you know what, yourrecruitment is going to get worse.
(40:29):
And so I think that's thepiece that we need more executive
buy in and people to reallywake up and realize that when we
focus on these things, resultshappen. And also people's lives are
better. That's the other pieceof this that I think is so critical.
Yeah, yeah. All right, so we,we're running short on time, so I'm
(40:50):
going to give us a violentshove into advice land. Oh, we have
a guest.
Is it thundering?
Yeah, yeah, I heard it too. Iwould love to hear one piece of advice
for leaders out there. What'sone thing you would push leaders
to do more of, less of? What'syour, what's your advice?
Yeah, I would definitelyencourage leaders particularly on
(41:15):
these topics because if you'rea leader that cares about these issues,
you obviously are also tiredand you know, you may get frustrated
at times and so certainlyreally encourage them to find whatever
it is to practice self careand Give yourself grace because,
(41:37):
you know, we know that it getstough when you're doing this and
you're just, you know, there'sstill others that you feel like are
rowing against you. So that.That I would definitely share. The
other thing I would say is,particularly today for all leaders,
we really want to embed sortof a culture of gratitude within
(41:58):
all the work that we do, bothfor ourselves, but also for others.
Because, you know, these arenot easy things to do either. I mean,
I'm not sitting here andsaying you can get belonging and
mattering done easily andquickly, takes time, but when you
do it, you really build thebest human centered culture and community.
You really bring the best outof people. And so I think bringing
(42:22):
that, you know, gratitude intothis, really allowing people to both
feel and be the best that theycan be, is truly transformational.
Nice. So when you think ofpeople who support leaders, HR or
senior leaders who aresupporting other leaders, what's
your advice for them?
They need to care about theseissues. They really need to understand
(42:45):
that they sit there and theycare a lot about the financial figures
associated with recruitmentand retention, that there's nothing
greater than taking the timeto care about whether someone in
this department or thisdepartment feel that they belong
or matter. If they can takethat time, if they can get out of
the C suite and walk orvirtually engage, ask people how
(43:10):
they feel, create thatpsychological safe environment where
the people are going to bewilling to share with them their
care, you know, theirconcerns, their ideas. It'll go such
a long way. Get back to thebasics. You know, we're all humans.
Show respect and a desire towant to appreciate and relate and
connect and really, again,build that community. We need leaders
(43:32):
at all levels who understandthat again, that they can make it
or break it for anotherperson, but also for the rest of
us.
Yeah, yeah. I think the thingthat ended up converting me to continually
watching anything that Gary,Gary V. Puts out there, Gary Vaynerchuk,
is his focus on servantleadership. Right. You, you work
(43:53):
for your people. Your peopledon't work for you. What are you
doing? You know, I feel likehe makes it really practical. Like,
how are you, what are youdoing that helps, you know, bring
the best out of someone.
Yeah.
Okay, so our final piece iskind of the grab bag section. So
I'll tee it up in one way, butyou take it where you want, which
is, you know, if people areinterested in more Geoffrey Roche
(44:16):
in their lives, where can theyfind you? What's any, you know, parting
thought you have for theaudience today.
Yeah, no, happy. Happy toconnect. Certainly LinkedIn is a
great place to connect with meand obviously, you know, attend many,
you know, L and D conferences,particularly in the healthcare space
and such. So always happy toconnect as well.
(44:36):
Nice. Well, I reallyappreciate it, Jeffrey. So glad you
were interested in coming onthe podcast today. It was a great
conversation and, you know,I'm excited to see what else.
You do out there.
So I'm now, you know, a fanand watching you like a hawk as well.
So really appreciate youcoming on today.
Thank you for having me.
(44:57):
Yeah, thank you. Take it easy.That brings us to the end of our
episode. Thanks for listening.I didn't care you to head on over
to my website, Kent Coach, andstart a conversation with me there
or check out my promotionplaybook at Kent Coach Playbook.
Before you go on with yourday, I ask that you please take a
moment to leave a rating and areview wherever you listen to podcasts.
Five stars. That helps putthis podcast in front of more eyes
(45:19):
and ears. Until next time,take it easy.
Frankly, all of us have ourduty and our responsibility to lift
others up so that they canachieve what we have achieved. I
think that's the piece thatgets frustrating for me is I truly
don't grasp why we can't bemore people focused. It just. Yes,
I understand it's not easywork, but it's not that difficult
(00:25):
for us to simply sit there andlisten and ask people, you know,
if we could change one thingabout this workplace, what would
you like it to be?
Hi there and welcome to theStep Up Expert Voices for Leadership
Growth. I'm your host, KentKnievel. Every week I talk to experts
who focus on helping leadersstep up their leadership game. If
(00:45):
you're new to the show, thenon whatever platform you're using,
I encourage you to subscribeso you never miss an episode. One
last thing, As a leadershipdevelopment consultant and executive
coach, I have a particularinterest in supporting recent internally
promoted leaders. If that'syou, or if you support a leader who
has been recently promoted, Iencourage you to visit my website
at Kent Coach Playbook anddownload a free copy of my 90 day
(01:07):
blueprint filled withpractical advice for you or the leader
you support in hitting theground running and truly stepping
up to their new leadershiplevel. Without further ado, on with
the show. Welcome everyone.Today we are talking about belonging
as it pertains to workforcedevelopment. And with me today is
Jeffrey Roche. He is thedirector of workforce development
(01:29):
for Siemens Health and Ears.Welcome, Gregory. Welcome to the
podcast. Thanks for joining me today.
Absolutely. So good to be here.
Yeah. Well, as per usual, Ilike to start with hearing a little
bit about your career storybefore we get into our topic. So
I would love to hear how didyou make your way into what you're
doing today?
Absolutely. Yeah. So obviouslyI always tell everyone I'm son of
(01:51):
an incredible nurse. Thatcertainly had a huge impact on ultimately
what made me choose and havethe privilege of serving in healthcare.
Followed my mother, but notclinically served in a hospital,
actually served in the samehospital as my mother for just under
a decade. She wasn't thereactually when I was there. She had
moved on. But, you know,really neat experience. Started in
(02:14):
a professional level roleactually where I was the hospital
spokesperson and had theprivilege of also being responsible
for all of our externalrelationships and partnerships with
the business community, ouracademic partners, as well as others
within the region that weserved and then also through special
assignment of our presidentand CEO, had the privilege of working
closely on our culture,employee engagement, and really how
(02:36):
we were viewed internally. Sothat we could improve both our internal
and our external perceptionand reality of who we were as an
organization. Then had theprivilege of serving at two different
college and a university onthe President's cabinet doing a similar
level role but on the academicside that's really where I got a
lot of experience particularlyin sort of the leadership development,
(02:58):
executive education side ofhow a university could partner with
industry to thinking aboutthose issues and solving for some
of those challenges from aretention from a leadership development
succession planning and thenactually served at a startup that
was doing all that work in thehealthcare space which was a really
neat opportunity workingglobally, many different countries
(03:18):
around all aspects ofleadership development education
and certainly upskilling,reskilling, done some consulting
work well in both educationand healthcare and you know, obviously
for the last several yearshave been fortunate to serve at Siemens
healthineers in an inauguralrole. Focus on how do we help our
hospitals and healthcaresystem customers think through their
(03:41):
biggest learning anddevelopment challenges as a trusted
advisor, help them envisionhow you can build a sustainable future
ready workforce and reallylean in on sharing best practices
and helping them connect toopportunities that are supportive
to them.
Nice. I forgot for just aminute that your sort of headline
on LinkedIn is Son of a nurse.Right? And so I don't think we had
(04:04):
a chance to talk about thiseither but I am the son of a teacher,
right. And it just connectedfor me that I don't think about that
often enough that knowessentially part of what I do is
teach and coach and you know,I, I don't know that I credit her
enough for that and I, Idefinitely credit her for my typing
skills. She, I remember thehum of the IBM Selectric at our dining
(04:25):
room table and she had kind offoreseen how computers were going
to become central to work andI, I had no choice but to get good
at 10 keying and so I have, mytyping skills to this day are pretty
fast. Yeah, that's fun. Sotell me just before we get really
into our topic, tell me alittle bit more about the chart.
You know, I think you talked alittle bit about it, but I would
(04:46):
love to hear just a little bitmore about the charge of your current
role.
Yeah, so I mean when you thinkabout it, right, I mean there's been
a lot of reports, 20, 27, 2030others that are highlighting this
massive shortage that we'regoing to experience in healthcare
and it's a shortage that'smultifaceted. I mean one, you have
(05:07):
certain experiences in certainacademic programs that have Less
enrollment or less completionas compared to other years. You also
have, particularly our babyboomers who have served in healthcare
for a long time, making adecision to retire. And you have
less retention all throughouthealthcare. And so all these three
(05:30):
factors have a dramaticeffect. And the reality of it is
that it's an industry that'schanged so much. And it's also an
industry that's not alwaysbeen the best at being really people
focused. And a lot of that isjust historic. We didn't necessarily
have to worry about peopleleaving traditional healthcare employers
(05:50):
as much before the pandemic.People want to say the pandemic is
what caused this. It didn't.This has been a problem for a very
long time. In fact, in myhospital administration days, we
were wrestling with it andworking to solve it. It's a place
where we haven't been flexiblearound shifts. We've introduced new
technologies without everactually asking those who are going
(06:11):
to use them why and how used.It's a space where we have never
really dealt with the issuesof burnout and done so in a people
focused way. And so we've gotall these factors that are coming
in. And so a lot of my work isreally to help a healthcare system
think through what does theirecosystem of workforce look like?
(06:33):
Where are they currentlygetting their future healthcare professionals?
Are they strategicallypartnering with Both K through 12
and higher education to reallybuild a future ready workforce? Are
they thinking about new andemerging themes in the healthcare
space like apprenticeships,which have worked so well in the
building trades, yet we'vebeen so slow to adopt them in healthcare?
(06:56):
Are they sitting at the tablewith the program accreditors on the
higher ed side who may bestuck in the mud or stuck in the
80s or 90s or maybe evenbefore, and challenging them respectfully
to move forward, reallythinking through those types of matters
and then also really beingwilling to challenge them on if we're
(07:17):
seeing specific challenges inan imaging department or a lab department,
or certainly in the radiationtherapy space through the work that
our colleagues at Varian do,being willing to say to them, hey,
have you thought about yourorganizational culture or your employee
engagement? Because obviouslywhen we have the opportunity to be
on site and listen and learn,there are things you pick up on.
And so you can't just build asustainable future ready workforce
(07:40):
if you also don't address thecurrent issues within your organization.
And so just being there tokind of respectfully challenge that
as well.
Yeah, I think if I were tothink about, you know, because I've
done Some consulting here andthere with, with healthcare groups
from a leadership developmentperspective. And interestingly, a
lot of people, especially onthe, the provider side, nursing doctors,
(08:03):
specialists. Right. They getinto it as maybe a bit of a calling.
Right. And so I guess myquestion to you is like, have we
been relying on healthcarebeing a calling on the provider side
and not necessarily, I thinkkind of to what you're saying here
maybe not been as intentionalon, you know, from a, I don't know,
(08:26):
org development perspective orwhat have you on culture.
We certainly have, you know,relied on, you know, certainly that
aspect of a calling because weknow, you know, for so many, particularly
those that are in the babyboomer generation and, and others
have always said that in manyways is either a calling or they
followed the footsteps of amother or father or family business.
(08:48):
Yeah, you know, very common.We've also relied on the fact that
the benefits have always beenso historically rich, you know, a
great benefit package inhealthcare systems or other healthcare
employers. But obviously ashealth insurance and other dynamics
of the market have changed,that's not necessarily the case anymore.
You know. Yes, at one time italso was one of the most PTO rich
(09:12):
places, you know, because youcould get a lot of weeks, but now
you have employers in otherspaces that offer unlimited pto.
And so, you know, you can'tcompete with that. You can't compete
with the idea where you couldwork remotely versus having to work
in person for 12 hour shiftsversus being able to work remotely.
So you've got a lot ofdynamics. You know, I'll give you
(09:34):
an example that I always thinkabout is there was a Texas healthcare
system that was reallychallenged with some of these issues.
And a colleague of mine, thiswas actually in the nursing space,
but a colleague of mine wassaying to them, you know, why can't
you think about changing themodel of the hours and still envision
(09:59):
how you can give thembenefits? Yes. In times, you know,
they have to have a certainnumber of hours they work to get
part time. But really this wasa situation where they're saying,
well, if it was two hours lessthan what you currently give for
part time benefits, whywouldn't you be willing if it meant
you could retain them? And thehealthcare system was like, we just
(10:21):
never thought about that. Youknow, I think it, you know, it's,
it's these types of, types ofthings that also we have to be thinking
about. And a lot of that isthat they've been fortunate to be
more of an employer approachversus what's also the Best interest
of our whole community. Andthat's. That's what I think is. Is
important within this type ofcomp conversation.
(10:43):
Yeah, that's interesting. I'veseen plenty of that in food service
and retail as well. Right.Managing the. Those hours like a
hawk and trying not to dipinto benefits territory. And yet,
and yet out of the other sideof one's mouth complaining about
retention and how hard it isto find good help. You know, interesting
(11:05):
what might happen if you tookcare of your people and thought about
your role as part of thecommunity. So I know, you know, we're
going to talk about, or we'regoing to jump into sort of talking
about belonging here, but Ithink the connection to culture and
everything that you're sayinghere is as we think about the challenge
of retaining people, how do wemake. I guess maybe I'm putting words
(11:25):
in your mouth, but how do wemove in this direction of ensuring
that this is a place thatpeople feel like they belong and
are. Maybe I might even takethe leap here and say they're a part
of this community here. Sowhat has brought belonging sort of
to the forefront for you?
Yeah, you know, it'smultifaceted. Particularly, I'll
(11:47):
say is, you know, when I lookback on my career, you know, there's
really only been one trueorganization where I felt like I
belonged in many ways, feltlike there was intentionality around
building a community. Yes,there were times where there was
disagreement, but so often wewere all rowing in the same direction.
(12:12):
We may have rode a littledifferent at times, but we were truly
passionately committed toachieving the work that we were doing.
And that was in my hospitalsystem. What I noticed when I look
back on that, as somebody nowwho's also in a doctoral program
in leadership, that there'sjust so much to be said about a leader
or an executive team thatreally wants to engage all levels
(12:36):
of an organization in thinkingthrough these matters and also solving
for them. You know, Iregularly tell the people that I
can vividly remember us doingexecutive rounding where one of our
executive leaders would roundwith a people leader like myself.
And the whole idea of that wasto literally be listening ears. Our
only job was to go out andtalk to other colleagues that were
(12:57):
on the front lines and makesure that they were being supported,
make sure that their needswere being met, and at times for
us to ask them if they coulddo something different about our
system, what would it be? Andthere were so many powerful examples
of solutions and ideas thatcame out of that that were both Facility,
sometimes related, that werepeople related, you name it, that
(13:21):
was just very, very different.And so I can always kind of come
back to that. And then servingin other organizations where I've
seen leaders not care as muchabout people, not have a culture
that has any sense ofbelonging to more of a us versus
them or an elitist type ofthing, you know, you name it and
(13:43):
I can, I can. You know, as Iwent through this journey, I can
remember a couple years ago Iwas at an event in Denver, Colorado,
and you know, this was, it wascalled the Courageous Imaginator
Summit, which was just afantastic title. And it was, you
know, chief human resourceofficers and leaders from academia
(14:03):
and leaders from employersfrom the healthcare space and people
involved in the arts andculture and you know, music and very,
very eclectic group. And therewas a speaker there that asked, both
posed the question to us that,that has always stuck with me that
said, what could you, or whatcould someone else be covering in
(14:26):
their workplace aboutthemselves for fear, retribution,
whatever the case may be, orwhat are they covering at home, or
what are they covering atchurch? Or what are they covering
wherever about themselves? AndI remember walking away and thinking
about that was such a powerfulquestion that also gets at this idea
(14:47):
of belonging and mattering so,so much, but also gets at the both
personal and professionalnature of who we are as individuals.
And you know, that was a soulsearching moment for me because all
these years I've been sowholly committed to this. But I wondered
like, what am I covering? Andyou know, through that process, an
incredible process, not aneasy, you know, very challenging
(15:09):
process, very mental healthfilled process, I was able to realize
what I was covering. And whatI realized was that so much of that
was also embedded into my fearof being in communities that wouldn't
necessarily show me value,appreciation, respect, understanding.
(15:30):
And you know, ultimately I hadto be, you know, I had to accept,
but I also had to feel thatcoming out as a gay man after living
my life as this heterosexual,you know, father of three children,
married at the time, you know,to a woman, you know, just that whole
element of all of that. Andyet certainly in many ways took,
(15:54):
not that I'd say this oneevent, but certainly in a big significant
way. And so when I start tounpack a lot of that, truly Ken,
I start to think about howmany other people are in that exact
situation. And then when Ithink about here, where we sit today,
where we have people who aretrying to erase people or tell people
(16:15):
that they really, really don'tmatter, it not Only infuriates me.
But when I think about themental health aspects of just what
it's like having been throughalso greatly concerns me. And for
me, there's no one better thanfor a leader in an organization,
regardless of level, toacknowledge the opportunity and the
(16:40):
moment they have to break itor to, or make it for another person.
And I'm just fearful there'smore break it type of leaders than
there are make it today. Andso, you know, that's some of the
thoughts I would share.
Yeah, there's so much that yousaid in there that I want to dig
into. So one comment I want tomake and thanks for sharing your
(17:00):
personal story. You know, I'vehad the, I guess, luxury of representing,
you know, the, the centerednorm, so to speak. Right. And, and
yet I've, I've had experienceswhere I don't know that I feel like
I belong. Right. And one supershort story, I'll keep it very short,
(17:23):
that kind of stands out. As Iwas entering into this organization
and my manager who knew me hadsaid, hey, this organization's not
very colorful. So basicallywas asking me to tone it down, like
tone down my personality orwhat have you. And so I would say
for, for six months I did thatand I was miserable. And the moment
(17:46):
I started just giving myselfpermission to be myself, everything
improved, not just my ownsense of belonging, but in, just
in general how people receivedmy work and you know, my consulting.
And I did feel like I belongedmore when I once I gave myself the
permission to just be myself.Right. But, but you know, I want
(18:10):
to acknowledge while tellingthat story, I represent kind of the
centered nor, you know, whatwould the commonly agreed upon, I
guess, you know, centered normand luxury that I have is to give
myself that permission to justbe myself as well. Regardless of
what I was told this, thisculture internally might be. There's
something you said at thebeginning. Not the beginning, but,
(18:32):
but you know what you, in youranswer to my last question that I
want to come back to, which iswalking the floor with some of the
senior leaders. Right. Kind ofwalking the floor and talking. Because
one thing that I've talkedabout with folks is it's one thing
for senior leaders to say whatthey want the culture to be.
(18:53):
Yeah.
And to be trying to drive somekind of a culture. But if you don't
walk the floor and hear fromyour people what the culture currently
is, your ability to transformit, let alone support what might
be a working culture is goingto be, you know, in conflict, it
certainly can be Shaped anddirected from the top down, but it's
(19:19):
lived and breathed right fromthe bottom, bottom up. Right. And
so if you don't have yourhand, your finger on the pulse of,
well, what is the culturetoday? Because the diffusion from
senior leaders to the shopfloor, so to speak, can be. Be pretty
huge, right, what we say atthe top and what's actually happening,
you know, on the ground level.So I was happy to hear that. I'm
(19:41):
just curious what yourexperience with that dichotomy of,
here's what we want thisculture to be and what is actually
happening today.
You know, I think so.Certainly, at least in. In that experience,
what I observed was there wasso much of a culture there that was
(20:07):
built on, we are all in thistogether. And, you know, the team
members felt inclined toliterally share anything and everything
with that executive. And hewas such a fantastic leader that
as he would hear from them andhe would elevate whatever they shared
to wherever or whomever, hewould make sure to go back to them
(20:33):
and let them know what wasdone. Because he always, you know,
he didn't forget where he camefrom. You know, he started in food
services. And so for him, youknow, the idea that he went from
food services all the way toan executive vice president job,
never wanted to be a CEO, butmade it to the top of where he wanted
to be, he wasn't going toforget that. And I think today, you
(20:53):
know, at least it's been myexperience, those leaders are rare,
and that should not be thecase, because all of us started somewhere,
and frankly, all of us haveour duty and our responsibility to
lift others up so that theycan achieve what we have achieved.
And I think that's the piecethat gets frustrating for me is I
(21:15):
truly don't grasp why we can'tbe more people focused. It just.
Yes, I understand it's noteasy work, but it's not that difficult
for us to simply sit there andlisten and ask people, if we could
change one thing about thisworkplace, what would you like it
to be now? Yes, you've got tocreate psychological safety for them
(21:36):
to be able to honestly sharethat with you. Which, again, we had
in our organization that was,you know, and that was before we
even talked aboutpsychological safety. But we had
so much, you know, we had somuch. And I think a lot of that honestly
started because of how ourexecutives were. You know, we would
go into meetings where we wereinterdisciplinary, you know, groups
(21:57):
working on things, theexecutives, in most cases, there
were some who are. Who are notGood. Don't get me wrong. But in
most cases would say to theteam, I want all of you to share
your thoughts before I sharemine. And they would wait until the
very end. And when they didshare, they were more summarizing
what they heard and givinginput to where they think they were
(22:19):
going to recommend or anaction they were going to take based
on what they heard. Theyweren't just telling everyone, well,
whatever you shared was great,but here's what I'm going to do.
They were really taking intoaccount that. And so I think there's
just. There has to be a moreintentionality focus. Intentional
focus on that. Becausefrankly, we all have seen it in our
(22:40):
careers. People closest to thework absolutely know what needs to
happen.
Yeah, well, and I kind ofthinking about belonging, your story,
and even just thinking aboutthe brief story I was giving. Right.
That when you feel like youbelong, your engagement, your work
(23:00):
production, your ability todrive, belonging for others, psychological
safety, there's so manyconnections to what that unlocks.
So as a, as a critical driverfor culture and kind of coming back
to where we started, which is,you know, looking at this future
of, you know, there's thisprojection of there being a shortage
(23:24):
of workers in the health careindustry where you're working. So
how are you doing trying topull this through your work, pull
belonging and culture throughwith your consulting work and how
you're trying to helporganizations, I don't know, reevaluate
or drive this?
Yeah, you know, many ways it'sreally a matter of asking questions,
(23:47):
bringing it up, you know,particularly the reality in healthcare.
And again, this is thechallenge we sit. Where we sit today
is much of these types oftopics have been so, as we were talking
about earlier, linked todiversity, equity, inclusion, which
again, I don't understand inany way why that's become such a
(24:10):
bad thing, other than it'scoming from people who, in my opinion,
are filled with hate, to bequite honest. But I do think that,
particularly in healthcare,because of the whole federal contracting
piece and the aspect ofMedicare and Medicaid, you know,
hospital systems and otheremployers have had to really think
(24:30):
carefully about how theyapproach these matters. And I think
it does represent a greatopportunity in conversations that
I have with them to reallythink about it as community and think
about it as belonging andthink about how it is and what it
is that you need to do toreally lift up everyone in your community
(24:53):
and give them a voice, allowthem to feel that they're heard,
they're valued, they'reappreciated, they're respected. Allow
them to feel like they own theorganization. And what I mean by
that is allow them to own thework that they're doing and you want
them to achieve. And when theyneed to grow from it, you grow from
it, you learn from ittogether. Allow them to feel like
(25:15):
it's not just work, but it'salso joyful and it's impactful and
they're getting to see theimpact of the work that they do.
And I think also make surethey feel that they matter. And so
a lot of it is really askingleaders what they're doing in this
space. How are they leveragingtheir ergs, what are they doing from
(25:37):
a policy perspective? What arethey doing to ensure that there's
feedback on leaders that ismanageable and also accountable?
What are their practices?Everyone in healthcare wants to talk
about, they care aboutretention. But we know people leave
bad leaders and frankly badmanagers. They don't really leave
organizations generally. Andso what are they doing to unpack
(26:01):
that when that happens? Whatdata are they truly reflecting and
looking at and what are theydoing to hold those managers accountable?
I think there's just, youknow, it's those types of things.
And then on the other side ofit, it's also still respectfully
encouraging them andchallenging them to not give in to
(26:23):
what is considered right now,you know, a very hate filled agenda.
Because you know what you doneed a diverse workforce in healthcare.
It's the only way to achievehigher quality and better service
for our patients. When youhave somebody that can relate and
resonate with a patient, ninetimes out of 10, the care quality
(26:45):
does improve because theyunderstand their specific needs,
they live those specificneeds. And so it's just a very, very
different matter. And so don'tgive up on finding access and opportunity.
Whether it's different typesof connections into communities,
whether it's engaging morediverse public schools or private
(27:07):
schools, whatever the case is,there has to still be intentionality
around this. And frankly, forthe chief legal officers and regulatory
folks, be willing to stand upand talk about that this is still
the right thing to do. And bewilling to go to court if you need
to over these matters becauseit is the right thing to do. Lives
(27:30):
depend on it.
It's interesting because. So acouple quick reflections on that.
Let me start nearer term,nearer in from today. I think you're.
It's interesting watchingthose organizations who are going
public on either side of thefence, right, with we're abandoning
what we're doing or we'redoubling down on It. And watching
(27:55):
how the public is reacting tothat. Right. So that's. It's in.
It's interesting to observethat maybe even in my own. Literally
in my own backyard inMinnesota, as I reflect to my time
that I spent in dei. It was alot of rapid change in a short amount
(28:18):
of time. I was in DEI from2019 through. Or early 2022. And
what I felt in a very shortorder, it. We started from this place
of always needing to share theROI of what we were doing, how it's
good, you know, how diversity,equity and inclusion, all three.
(28:39):
Right. They are individualthings, but also interrelated things.
Right. Diversity can sometimesin an organization be summed up as
the numbers and how we'remeasuring people. Equity being, you
know, are people getting whatthey need as opposed to just equality
being. Everybody gets the sameand inclusion does Everybody. You
know, I think inclusion andbelonging, sometimes synonymous,
(29:01):
sometimes defined separately.But, you know, do people feel like
they're included here? Canpeople's voices be heard? And when
I, When I started my time inDEI again, I feel like there was
a lot of, like always talkingabout the ROI as we were working
on rolling out just aboutanything. But in this short span
(29:21):
of, you know, three, fouryears, at least in the organization
I was in at the time, therewas such a pull for it. There was
like, give us more. Like, giveus more particularly around equity
and inclusion.
Right.
That's. That's what, you know,the organization as a whole wanted
more. And, and there got to.We kind of got to this place of we
(29:42):
don't have to be sharing theROI as much because it has somehow
gotten to the core of. It'sthe right thing to do. But I feel
like the train, you know, thetrain switch, the track switch has
been flipped back to probablyback into ROI land. Right. Of have.
Of getting more transparentwith sharing how this is good for
(30:05):
business, how it's good for society.
Yep.
It's just a. You know, I, Ithink about that from time to time
with where we're at today.This sort of like two steps forward,
one step back kind ofprogress. Right. And I. What's interesting
is the thing that has sort ofcaused the most angst trouble agenda
(30:30):
today has been the D indiversity, equity and inclusion has
been the numbers and theprocesses that companies have put
into place to try to reflecttheir community. Right. Having been
close enough to that work, notdirectly involved, but close enough.
Close enough to it. You know,I know what has been said about it.
Right. And trying to talkabout again, roi but how it's good
to represent your community,how that, how that affects who you're
(30:53):
selling to and customer baseand all that. And we've seemed to
have, you know, be in thisplace where companies are throwing
the entire thing away andabandoning the equity and inclusion
and belonging aspects becauseof what might need to be a recalibration
around one aspect of it. Whenin my own opinion, I think if I were
(31:16):
to think of what went wrong inthat space, perhaps if we were to
say is look in the mirror, isthere anything that we could have
done differently? In theconversations that I've been having
with folks, I don't know thatwe were ever as transparent and vocal
about what we were doing andwhy and why, you know, particularly
on the diversity front. Right.I think we were very. Because it's
(31:38):
just such a dicey area andthat's where I'm seeing a lot of
companies pulling back from.So I know I covered a lot of ground
there. But just curious whatyour reaction.
Yeah, no, I think you're. Ithink you're right. And I think in
many ways it's actually verywell connected to the same thing
that learning and developmentfaces, which is that we, you know,
we have normally reported, youknow, the number of students in a
(32:01):
program as compared toreporting and aligning our learning
to business strategy and howwithout that learning we wouldn't
have achieved those businessresults that quarter.
Right. What was learned?
I mean, you can, you canabsolutely articulate that, especially
when you partner with afunctional unit and say, hey, what's
(32:21):
your biggest challenge thisquarter? What can we do to change
that? Put a program together,you know, get some intentionality
around that, study it, get theresults, et cetera. I think the same
thing really is important inthis space too, because the difference
I think is you have to,because of how polarized society
is, you can't just assume youcan present it as a nice to have.
(32:45):
It's got to really bepresented as a must have. And I think
to your point, there are someincredible results that some organizations
have seen, have experienced,but that story has just not been
told enough. The story hasbeen fabricated to, you know, think
that there's, you know,specific numbers that an organization
(33:07):
has around this number of. Imean, yeah, I'm sure some people
do. Right. But in most cases,most organizations were just, in
my opinion, trying to do abetter job at career and economic
mobility, you know, try and doa better job of lifting up their
community to try and do abetter job of better articulating
(33:28):
how to Approach solutions inone community as compared to another.
I think it's just the natureof where we are today. But I think
to your point, what we shouldlearn from it is let's do a better
job of telling the stories andlet's ensure we have really effective
(33:49):
data that's measured andevaluated. And let's recognize some
people are just going to benaysayers and they're hate filled
and we don't have to worryabout them because you know what,
at some point we got to viewthem as just the wind that blows
because they're just gonna,they're not gonna come along and
they're not gonna be willingto come along.
Yeah, yeah, I, I'm glad yousaid. I used to say, so I, when I
(34:13):
rolled out an allyshipprogram, I used to say, I don't think
I'm that interested inconverting the unwilling. I want
to double down on those whoare willing and the. I want to pull
the fence sitters off thefence onto the side. But in terms
of, you know, where the effortis best spent, you know, progress
(34:33):
is found going with those whoare willing to go.
Absolutely.
So I want to bring this backto belonging just for a minute before
we get into our advice sectionbecause, you know, again, I think
everybody wants to belong.Right. And I think if we were, and
this is, it's so much easierto talk about in one to one or, you
know, small group settings.Right. That there is always a room
(34:55):
I'm sure that you've comeacross in a week or a month, you
know, literal rooms thatyou've been in where there's probably
at least one room where youfeel like you haven't belonged. Right.
Or you just didn't belongthere. And I feel like those have
been some of the bestconversations that I've had when
I, in my time in DNI istalking about inclusion and belonging,
is to say there probably isn'ta whole picture of inclusion and
(35:22):
belonging. It's where do you,where do you need to be included?
Where do you feel like youbelong or you don't belong? And how
do we make improvements, youknow, in those smaller spaces even?
And I think, you know, as wewere talking before, you know, I
feel like belongings shouldbe, you know, a very acceptable thing
(35:43):
to be talking about. Um, soI'm just curious, you know, as we're
kind of getting towards theadvice section, where are you trying
to take this, you know, where,where are you seeing your next, you
know, 6, 12, 18 months, youknow, going when you, when you think
about this.
It really does come down tothere has to be a lot more work to
(36:04):
educate leaders at all levelson their responsibility around this.
Because what we know iseveryone desires community. Even
if you're introverted, youstill desire community. You just
desire in a different way ascompared to an extrovert. And so
we've got to really be focusedon it. We've got to ensure that it
(36:26):
fits our specificorganization, whatever that looks
like. We have to be willing tohold people accountable. And so.
And we have to be willing toeducate because ultimately, you know,
when you have community,there's just so much that can be
experienced there. You know,we can learn about one another's
culture, we can learn abouttheir specific stories, which helps
(36:49):
us to learn why they do whatthey do. It's also where we see imagination,
creativity and discoverythrive. It's where we see, I mean,
and it's been studied. It'swhere we see business performance
significantly improve. And soI think it's, you know, it's time
for organizations to reallyunderstand those matters, get engaged.
(37:13):
This is also where I oftensay, you know, you've got to have
the board and the shareholdersalso understand why this is important
because they need to hold theexecutive team accountable to these
things. It's one of thereasons why I argue regularly that
fiduciary of a board orshareholders also is people. You
can't just say finance,because without people, there is
(37:35):
no finance. And so there hasto be much more emphasis, you know,
from that end as well.
Yeah, I know I keep sayingwe're about to get to the advice
section, but keep coming upwith things I want to ask you, which
is. So one more, and thenwe'll get to that. Because I know
where we started here was youwere. You were talking about the
healthcare industry, which iswhere you've spent the bulk of your
(37:55):
career in this sort of, youknow, evolution or need in the healthcare
space. I don't thinkhealthcare is alone, right, in the
need to focus on culture andbelonging, but I would love to, before
we get to the advice section,kind of wrap on in your known domain
of health care. So where, youknow, how are you, or what do you
feel like the future has tohold? You know, looking at this future
(38:22):
of workforce shortage and, youknow, how are you trying to push
the needle when it. Or movethe needle when it comes to culture
and belonging as it pertainsto addressing that future workforce
shortage?
Yeah. So I'll say that I thinkwhat I'm finding is that every time
(38:44):
you have this conversation,there's so many more light bulbs
going off. And so last fall Iwas fortunate to bring together a
number of healthcare leadersfrom different systems and really
delve into this at a nationalconference, first in like a workshop
type of fashion and then at adinner. What stuck out to me was
(39:04):
how emotional these leaderswere and yes, their strong desire
and commitment to want tosolve for these issues, but also
how challenged they felt thatthey weren't getting executive buy
in to really want to or needto. And so you know what, what really
(39:25):
sticks out to me is so many ofthese leaders and these functions
have been charged withimproving retention. You think about
hr, you think about L and D,you think about org development,
even like the mental healthand wellness area of some, you know,
some roles have those areas asfocus too, but you can't do those
(39:45):
things if you also don't focuson belonging and mattering. Yeah,
you know, it's, it's commonsense. And so if you're a leader
out there saying, well, youknow, I don't understand why we're
struggling retention, well, ifyou don't have a practice around
these things and you're notholding leaders and professionals
accountable, if you, if you'refrankly continuing to ignore what
(40:09):
are truly some of the mostimportant issues, and let's not forget,
for the younger generations weknow these issues become even more
important on how they evaluatea workplace, then, then you know
what, just have the suckyretention, because you're only going
to continue to have it andit's only going to get worse. And
you know what, yourrecruitment is going to get worse.
(40:29):
And so I think that's thepiece that we need more executive
buy in and people to reallywake up and realize that when we
focus on these things, resultshappen. And also people's lives are
better. That's the other pieceof this that I think is so critical.
Yeah, yeah. All right, so we,we're running short on time, so I'm
(40:50):
going to give us a violentshove into advice land. Oh, we have
a guest.
Is it thundering?
Yeah, yeah, I heard it too. Iwould love to hear one piece of advice
for leaders out there. What'sone thing you would push leaders
to do more of, less of? What'syour, what's your advice?
Yeah, I would definitelyencourage leaders particularly on
(41:15):
these topics because if you'rea leader that cares about these issues,
you obviously are also tiredand you know, you may get frustrated
at times and so certainlyreally encourage them to find whatever
it is to practice self careand Give yourself grace because,
(41:37):
you know, we know that it getstough when you're doing this and
you're just, you know, there'sstill others that you feel like are
rowing against you. So that.That I would definitely share. The
other thing I would say is,particularly today for all leaders,
we really want to embed sortof a culture of gratitude within
(41:58):
all the work that we do, bothfor ourselves, but also for others.
Because, you know, these arenot easy things to do either. I mean,
I'm not sitting here andsaying you can get belonging and
mattering done easily andquickly, takes time, but when you
do it, you really build thebest human centered culture and community.
You really bring the best outof people. And so I think bringing
(42:22):
that, you know, gratitude intothis, really allowing people to both
feel and be the best that theycan be, is truly transformational.
Nice. So when you think ofpeople who support leaders, HR or
senior leaders who aresupporting other leaders, what's
your advice for them?
They need to care about theseissues. They really need to understand
(42:45):
that they sit there and theycare a lot about the financial figures
associated with recruitmentand retention, that there's nothing
greater than taking the timeto care about whether someone in
this department or thisdepartment feel that they belong
or matter. If they can takethat time, if they can get out of
the C suite and walk orvirtually engage, ask people how
(43:10):
they feel, create thatpsychological safe environment where
the people are going to bewilling to share with them their
care, you know, theirconcerns, their ideas. It'll go such
a long way. Get back to thebasics. You know, we're all humans.
Show respect and a desire towant to appreciate and relate and
connect and really, again,build that community. We need leaders
(43:32):
at all levels who understandthat again, that they can make it
or break it for anotherperson, but also for the rest of
us.
Yeah, yeah. I think the thingthat ended up converting me to continually
watching anything that Gary,Gary V. Puts out there, Gary Vaynerchuk,
is his focus on servantleadership. Right. You, you work
(43:53):
for your people. Your peopledon't work for you. What are you
doing? You know, I feel likehe makes it really practical. Like,
how are you, what are youdoing that helps, you know, bring
the best out of someone.
Yeah.
Okay, so our final piece iskind of the grab bag section. So
I'll tee it up in one way, butyou take it where you want, which
is, you know, if people areinterested in more Geoffrey Roche
(44:16):
in their lives, where can theyfind you? What's any, you know, parting
thought you have for theaudience today.
Yeah, no, happy. Happy toconnect. Certainly LinkedIn is a
great place to connect with meand obviously, you know, attend many,
you know, L and D conferences,particularly in the healthcare space
and such. So always happy toconnect as well.
(44:36):
Nice. Well, I reallyappreciate it, Jeffrey. So glad you
were interested in coming onthe podcast today. It was a great
conversation and, you know,I'm excited to see what else.
You do out there.
So I'm now, you know, a fanand watching you like a hawk as well.
So really appreciate youcoming on today.
Thank you for having me.
(44:57):
Yeah, thank you. Take it easy.That brings us to the end of our
episode. Thanks for listening.I didn't care you to head on over
to my website, Kent Coach, andstart a conversation with me there
or check out my promotionplaybook at Kent Coach Playbook.
Before you go on with yourday, I ask that you please take a
moment to leave a rating and areview wherever you listen to podcasts.
Five stars. That helps putthis podcast in front of more eyes
(45:19):
and ears. Until next time,take it easy.
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New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!