Guest, Cecilia Stanton Adams, CEO, Organization and Leadership Development consultant at the Diversity Institute and Stanton Adams consulting deep dive today into the shift from "culture fit" to "culture contribution," and let me tell you, it's a game-changer! Instead of just asking how folks fit into the existing mold, we're all about figuring out how every individual can help propel the organization into the future. We've got the amazing Cecilia Stanton Adams joining us to chat about leading inclusively, especially during these times when diversity efforts are facing some serious pushback. We'll explore how creating an environment where everyone can thrive isn't just a nice-to-have—it's essential for success. So grab your favorite beverage, kick back, and let’s get into how to build better workplaces together!
Cecilia Stanton Adams brings a wealth of experience navigating the complex landscape of diversity, equity, and inclusion within organizations. In this enlightening discussion with Kent Kniebel, she shares her journey from New York to Minnesota, driven by a passion for fostering inclusive environments. The duo explores the evolution of DEI terminology, transitioning from a focus on quotas to a comprehensive understanding of cultural contributions. They tackle the pushback against DEI initiatives, particularly in light of recent political climates, and how leaders can adapt their strategies to maintain momentum. At the core of their conversation is the belief that true leadership hinges on understanding and valuing the diverse backgrounds of team members. Cecilia emphasizes the importance of psychological safety in the workplace, where team members feel secure enough to voice their opinions without fear of retaliation. As they dissect the five drivers of a People First performance framework, listeners gain actionable insights into creating a more inclusive culture that not only empowers individuals but also propels organizations toward sustainable success.
Takeaways:
- Shifting from culture fit to culture contribution is vital for future growth.
- It's all about encouraging individual contributions that align with organizational goals.
- Creating a culture of belonging hinges on psychological safety and trust within teams.
- Organizations must prioritize diversity, equity, and inclusion to thrive in today's market.
Episode Links:
- Don't Retreat—Redesign: The New Blueprint for Inclusive Leadership - webinar on May 22, 2025
- Cecilia's Linked In Page
- https://www.stantonadams.com/
- Kent's Linked In Page
- The Promoted Leader Playbook
**Music for this podcast comes from the song Needle & Thread and is provided with permission by Pert' Near Sandstone. Check them out on PertNeaerSandstone.com and on all major streaming platforms.**
*Editing by Fynn Gentle / www.fynngentle.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I also think we got to moveaway from culture fit to culture
contribution. And, you know,with culture fit, it's always like,
how do you fit in to what wealready have? But we're trying to
live into the future, right?Like, we want companies that are
going to exist and be thrivingin the future. So we've got to think
about, like, how does eachindividual person contribute to where
(00:29):
the organization is going?
Hi there and welcome to theStep Up Expert Voices for Leadership
Growth. I'm your host, KentKnieble. Every week I talk to experts
who focus on helping leadersstep up their leadership game. If
you're new to the show, thenon whatever platform you're using,
I encourage you to subscribeso you never miss an episode. One
last thing. As a leadershipdevelopment consultant and executive
(00:51):
coach, I have a particularinterest in supporting recent internally
promoted leaders. If that'syou or if you support a leader who
has been recently promoted, Iencourage you to visit my website
at Kent Coach Playbook anddownload a free copy of my 90 day
blueprint filled withpractical advice for you or the leader
you support in hitting theground running and truly stepping
up to their new leadershiplevel. Without further ado, on with
(01:14):
the show. Welcome, everyone.Today we are talking about leading
inclusively through a time ofpushback and. And I'm honored today
to have Cecilia Stanton Adamswith me for this conversation today.
We've known each other forsome time. I'm so excited you were
able to make time to be onhere today. Welcome.
Yes. So glad to be here, Kent.And great to see you. Congratulations.
(01:37):
So great to see the show.
Thank you. Thank you. Well, Iwould love to, because I think your
own story, I think, is goingto dovetail because of what you do.
It's going to dovetail rightinto our topic. So I'd love for you
to kick us off with just tellus about your career arc, how you
got into this work. And like Isaid, I think that's going to go
right into our topic.
Perfect. Well, I always liketo start with, I was born and raised
(02:01):
in New York City because whenyou once you're a New Yorker, like,
you're always a New Yorker,even though I'm Minnesota now, but
I was born to two immigrantparents, so my parents are from Honduras
and they migrated to. To NewYork City and they met in New York
City, actually in Macy'scafeteria. So, yeah. Really? Really.
(02:23):
But yeah, there's my brotherand I and my parents just really
wanted us to have a goodfuture. Right. They came to this
country, so that There wouldbe more opportunities, and particularly
they wanted us to takeadvantage of schooling. So I was
the first in my family to goto college and graduate school. I
did a research doctoralfellowship. So I got a chance to
(02:44):
really do a lot of greatthings that I probably wouldn't have
had it not been for my parentssacrifice. But when I got into undergrad,
I was really interested andunderstanding more about diversity.
And I'm from New York, right?So you live and breed diversity.
You just, you're, you'resurrounded by people that look different,
you know, they, they worshipdifferent. And so I wanted to understand,
(03:08):
you know, how do you bringpeople together from diverse backgrounds
and get them to really connectand build trust. And this was actually
during the time of the O.J.simpson trial. So I don't take you
way back. So there was alittle bit of contention in the air
around what that outcome wasgoing to be. And so at the time,
(03:28):
my advisor helped me to puttogether a project where I invited
people that had differingviews around the O.J. simpson trial,
brought them together, and wedid a series of trust building exercises.
And then we had them slowlykind of move into dialogue about
the trials. And what welearned was that if you can build
(03:48):
trust with people acrossdifference, that you can have enough
of a foundation to be able totalk about differing views. And you
may not change your views, butthat's not the point. People actually
become more open to listeningto other views. Whether it changes
it or not is reallyirrelevant. It's really that that's
(04:11):
how we expose ourselves to newand different things. Right. And
ways of doing things. So Ilove that. And that just kind of
fueled everything that I woulddo from there, which is how do I
tap into this more, how do Ihelp managers and leaders tap into
this potential that we havewith people, knowing that you have
to create right kind ofenvironment. So around this time
(04:34):
also, the whole field of likediversity was becoming more prevalent.
It had come out of theaffirmative action movement and really
they went away from thinkingabout it in terms of quotas into
thinking about it as, youknow, part of the culture. Right.
Like, how do you actuallycreate a culture where people belong?
(04:54):
And so I worked with severaluniversities to, you know, bring
that mindset and thoseprinciples into the colleges and
universities so that students,no matter what background they came
from, could succeed, that theycould bring faculty from anywhere
around the world and theywould still be able to bring them
in and get them to feel like apart of that community. And that's
(05:18):
what just really locked andloaded me into this career track.
Now we call it dei. So mycareer kind of took me through the
whole. First was D and IDiversity and Inclusion. Then it
was DEI Diversity, Equity,Equity and Inclusion. Now we have
a whole lot of other kind ofname entitlings.
(05:39):
Yeah, I think the one that wasthe most bizarre one I heard was
Jedi, which I. I loved. I lovethe thinking behind it.
Right.
Maybe too nerdy for most.
Yes. Right. So people gotcreative. But really, you know, I
think what's most important isthe. The bottom line of the work,
which is how can we createenvironments where everyone can succeed?
(06:04):
Right. There's so muchpotential that every individual brings,
and yet we don't necessarilyhave the right environments in the
workplace to bring that out ofpeople. But if we do, we actually
see them thrive. We actuallysee their loyalty to the company
and to who they work forincrease. And so there's. There's
(06:26):
something to this that, youknow, I feel like has developed over
the years of doing DEI work. Iworked inside many organizations
like Buffalo Wild Wings, whereI work together. Alianz Life Insurance
Company. So it's a globalfinancial services company, and many
others. And I. In 2010, mywife and I decided we wanted to start
(06:50):
our own practice because wewanted to also be able to develop
tools and resources and thingsthat the companies I was working
for weren't really maybeinterested or ready for at the time.
And through that work, we wereable to develop tools and different
strategies to helporganizations really start thinking
critically about this,measuring it, and actually putting
(07:12):
in solutions that actuallymade sense. And they're not the quotas
that we hear about now. Whenthey talk about DI in the media,
they tend to say, like,illegal diversity and that it's discriminatory.
Discrimination isdiscrimination no matter who it is,
too. It's illegal. It's alwaysbeen illegal, and it's still illegal
(07:33):
today. Right. But how do wereintroduce this in a way that people
can. Can really see thebenefit of it and not be kind of
stuck?
So before we. Before we gothere, a couple things from your.
Couple things from your. Yourpast. Right. So you. You've kind
of floated between now in yourHR roles, right? You've kind of floated
(07:54):
between leadershipdevelopment, OD talent, and dni.
Am I right or.
Yes.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah.
So I didn't realize how earlyyour roots in DEI began.
Yeah.
I swear, you floated through anumber of these. So I know in my
experience, Right. I had thegood fortune to be in a DEI role
for a few years, and then Wasable to quickly see how it's a part
(08:20):
of everything that I wasdoing. And then when I moved into
a talent management role,again, I was like, this is all a
part of it still. But I'd loveto just hear your thoughts, thoughts
on the intersection of theseexperiences you've had, especially
those internal roles andbecause clearly you keep coming back
to dei.
Exactly. And my, my backgroundis, you know, I got my undergrad
(08:41):
degree in psychology and Ireally focused on how people develop
their own sense of identity,especially if you're not a part of
majority culture. Right.Because then it's harder to really
get grounded in who you are.When I went to Lehigh University,
I did a predoctoral fellowshipand I studied unconscious bias in
(09:02):
the lab where we actually ranstudies. So research background.
And then I got my master'sdegree in sociology because I wanted
to figure out, how do you dowhat. How do you pull all these people
together and really operatewithin an organization? And then
I got my master's at CapellaUniversity in industrial psychology,
which takes all that work andputs it in the organization. So I
(09:25):
already had a pretty goodfoundation of thinking about the
interconnections of theorganization and the challenges that
they were having with bringingpeople in from different backgrounds.
And of course, working in thatfield really helps you to understand
where those things are. Like,for example, in a lot of organizations,
(09:46):
there are class differencesand class, socioeconomic class is
kind of one of those invisiblethings where we don't really see
it, but it has a huge impacton people's lives within organizations.
And it's surprising even howit comes out, even symbolically.
So I worked with oneorganization where, you know, all
(10:06):
of the, the employees thatwere like customer service and more
of the, you know, lower in theorganization positions were all located
in one part of the building.And then all of the. The leadership
and higher level positionswere located in the different part
of the building. Right. Soeven that kind of sets up who you're
around, who you're talking to,who you bring in to a conversation
(10:29):
when you're working on a project.
Yeah. I worked at a. A coupleof organizations that I worked for,
have very long standingcollege recruiting efforts, same
colleges, year over year. Andthat was one that came up too, as,
you know, the affinity biasone had for those who went to the
(10:49):
same college as them.
Yes, exactly.
Who got the plum assignmentsand, or, you know, chosen early.
So I want to give you a bigcompliment before we move into the
conversation too, because I.Yes. Buckle up. I always credit you
for this. You have no ideathis is coming either. I know when
we first met, you were the DEIdepartment of one.
(11:12):
Yes.
And the amount of work thatyou were able to get done always
astounded me. Right. And you.You. You preceded me there. Right.
So I came into. You hadalready laid all. All this groundwork.
And I always credit you foryour ability to get things done through,
like, a. That inclusivecommittee of the like, passionate,
(11:38):
interested, willing. Right. Ithink you had gotten. That was at
Buffalo Wild Wings. I justthink you had gotten so much done
there through volunteer work.Right. Through people who were just
passionate about it. So I justwanted to credit you for, you know,
your ability to bring peoplealong. I have another compliment
for you, but I'm gonna. I'mgonna share it later, I promise.
(11:58):
Okay. So let's. Let's. Let'sdovetail into. Right. So we wanted
to talk today about. It's beena rocky year. Right. Especially for
folks who are working in theDEI space. But I feel like, you know,
you're starting to emerge withsome new thinking here, thinking
about how do we leadinclusively through these sort of.
(12:21):
How did I put it earlier?Through kind of a time of pushback.
So where are you heading? Whatare your thoughts here?
Yeah, so probably about a yearbefore the elections was when I really
started to become in tune withwhat was happening around this shift
around dei. Now, of course, itwas happening long before then in.
(12:41):
In smaller ways, but it's whenI first got, you know, kind of an
idea of it, and I joined thisgroup. It's. It's called iac. It's
an allies coalition. So it'smade up of DI champions and leaders
from around the country. Andwhat. What was beautiful about it
is we got to hear from peoplethat were in states that already
(13:03):
had laws being put in place tolimit diversity work. So even though
I'm here in Minnesota, I canhear what is being tested, what's
being piloted, and it startedto make us realize this is happening,
and we've got to get ready,and we've got to get ready to get
our people, the folks thathave been doing this work, to really
(13:25):
understand the implicationsand what we need to do to. To evolve
in this particular area. And Ithink the thing that has been really
hard is the grieving processthat people. I see that I am helping,
that I myself am also goingthrough, because this has been a
(13:47):
movement, you know, in. Youknow, some people spend their whole
life in this movement thatdates back, you know, many, many
decades. And it's not justabout one group, right. It's. It's
about so many people that seein, in diversity, equity, inclusion,
and understand that it's notjust for certain groups, Right. But
it's really meant to bringeveryone, you know, together and
(14:11):
everyone to have a place atthe table. And so that grieving process
is hard because you can't bestrategic when you're grieving, right?
Like, you just have to attendto your own, you know, wherever you're
at and really give yourselfwhat you need. Being a part of that
IAC group a year earlierreally helped me to get to the strategy
(14:32):
quicker. And so as of January,that's what I started to do. I'm
like, here are the outcomesthat I want to get to. Here are the
outcomes that were alwaysimportant to me. And that is, you
know, having people haveaccess to opportunities like education,
right. Kids being able to havethe basic skill sets that they need,
you know, to be successful,you know, to be able to move into
(14:55):
a career path and if youchoose, and actually be able to thrive.
And that wasn't happening foreveryone. So that was my goal post,
and it wasn't about any oneparticular group. You know, I come
from a multiracial family, youknow, and I've got a lot of different
dimensions of diversity. So Ifeel like every dimension of diversity
(15:16):
is important to be consideringin this, this kind of work. So how
can we do that in a differentway? And I think the first strategy
that a lot of folks use is tochange the name, right? That was
kind of like the first,easiest call.
Let's just call it something different.
Just call it something different.
No one will notice.
Exactly. But when we call itsomething different, we're doing
(15:37):
something different. It'sultimately going to take you to a
different end. And, and so Ifelt like I was continually developing
diversity 2.0, like justtaking what I'd already done and
just kind of doing it a littledifferently. And I, I realized this
is not going to work anymore.Like, we've evolved as a world and
(15:59):
as a country so much sincethese frameworks have existed, even
our leadership frameworks. Sohow do we re envision and redesign
the work so that we actuallyare getting to the outcomes? That's
what's most important. And sothat's what led me to the work that
I'm doing now around peoplefirst performing frameworks.
(16:21):
So it makes me think aboutmore from a leadership and OD perspective,
how people experience change.And we use the Sarah model in a lot
of contexts. Shock, anger,rejection, acceptance, and for the
listener, you know, peoplemake their way through that in their
own time. So you started. Youwere experiencing shock sooner, so
you were able to kind of startand work your way through to a productive
(16:45):
place a little faster. When Ithink, you know, people are still
probably in the shock phase.Right. We were especially here in
Minnesota, in the Twin Citiesarea. I know when I was in dni, I
always describe it like itfelt like it was before I left dni,
that it was more of a pull. Atthat time, business units were asking
(17:07):
us for more. How do we domore? How do we lead more inclusively?
How do we make sure peoplebelong. Right. That they feel like
they belong here? And so itwas rather than us sitting in a corner
designing and trying to pushcontent out, the requests were coming
in to build content to bringin. Right. So I. And I think that
was a change that came over time.
(17:29):
Yeah.
Where it felt like we werepushing out the content. Now they're
asking for content. I use theword content, but, you know, whatever
it is that they're looking for.
Yep.
And I feel like now the. We'reseeing it in the news, right. That
it's like the train tracks,which has kind of flipped right now.
There's this, like, Hang on.
Yeah.
I feel like some organizationsare readily saying, we're not doing
(17:51):
this anymore. Some arewondering, if we keep doing this,
is there going to be a targeton our backs? So they're getting
quiet. And then there's someorganizations who are just leaning
in and saying, no, this is. Toyour point. Right. This is something
we value and is important tohow we're doing business.
That's right. That's right.And I think more people would continue
(18:11):
doing the work if they knewhow to do it well.
Yeah.
Right. I think everyone wantsto avoid, you know, any kind of programs
or things like that that shutanyone out. And I think what we learned
through this process over thepast few years is that some people
don't feel a part of, youknow, things. And, you know, sometimes
(18:35):
we have to be humble and wehave to say, okay, where could we
maybe do things differently?And I wasn't willing to do that before.
And I, like, that's where thegrieving process has to come. But
then you get to a point whereit's like, okay, does it matter more
that I'm right, or does itmatter more that we get to the outcomes
that. Yeah. Right. And so itmeans, am I trying.
(19:00):
To put a personal point on theboard, or are we all trying to get
to the end Goal. Exactly.
And even as I'm watchingpeople navigate the political landscape
right now, people, we all havedifferent views, but at the end of
the day, most people want, youknow, some good for their family.
They want to be able to putfood on the table. They want to be
(19:21):
able to have a, you know, job,bring in income. Right. And. And
that hasn't been true for alot of people or a lot of cohorts
of people. And so we've got totake a look again and figure out,
you know, how do we. How do werelook at? How do we redesign? Because
I don't think we have theanswer yet.
So here comes your secondcompliment. I promised you it was
coming because I knew youwould say it. I've always found you
(19:43):
to be just really generous.Right. In terms of the grace that
you give for others, that yougive to others. Right. That I've
never heard you once speakfrom a place of, like, judgment.
Right. That you're all. You'reCecilia Stanton Adams focus is always
like, how do we lock arms andget there together? So. And I've
(20:06):
just really also appreciatedthat in your approach.
Thank you so much.
I'll see if I can come up withanother one before we're done.
Okay. I love them. I'm gettingused to this.
So. So you. You've kind ofbeen thinking about, where do we
go from here with. With wherewe're at today. So tell me where.
Where are you. Where are youthinking? Where are you going?
Yeah. So I started, you know,digging back into the research, and
(20:29):
I wanted to understand, like,what does the literature say around
leadership models? Right. Youknow, what have we learned from DEI
in terms of what worked andwhat didn't and what still holds
true in this new normal thatwe're in, where some people are working
hybrid, some are remote.Right. We have multiple generations
in the workplace. And what Icame up with was, you know, some
(20:52):
of the things that were justreally critical, no matter what,
I also looked at what are the.The new challenges, like AI. Right?
Like adopting technology.Like, that's for some organization,
that's still a huge hurdle.But to be competitive, you've got
to get in that space, andyou've got to have people that can
(21:13):
get in that space. And so thenI took those pieces and also kind
of built that into thisconcept. So I came up with five drivers
of a People first performanceframework, which is what I'm calling
it. The first is leading withintegrity. Right. And I know you.
You really believe in thatvery strongly. Talk a lot about that.
(21:35):
But leading with integrity,building the right cond. Right. Like
what's the infrastructureyou're putting in place? What are
the processes, the systemsthat are going to hold that up, empower
your people to grow. Iremember working for an organization
that was like, oh, we don'twant to develop them too much because
they may leave. And I'm like,okay, so would you rather them stay
(21:58):
and not be developed.
Because the under skilled.
Exactly. And you know, if, ifyou do develop them and they leave,
they're also going to leavewith a great, you know, reputation
of who you are or remember amemory of who you are and they may
come back. I've come back manyorganizations so you can't close
(22:20):
that door.
There's been different windowsfrom leadership development to talent
management where I've had tosay something similar, where it's
like if the worst casescenario is that you make this person
feel really good, good andthey have nothing but good things
to say about you, I don'tthink that that's a loss.
Correct, Exactly. Yeah. Or atbest case you are developing a talent
(22:43):
pipeline.
Right, Right. Yeah, yeah.
Which is. Yeah. What we need.So number four, create a culture
of belonging. Right. And thisis really thinking about psychological
safety, that you have to havea level of trust. I don't care who
you are, what background,race, ethnicity, religion, doesn't
matter. You have to have alevel of trust within the people
that you're working with thatthey're not going to judge you or
(23:04):
laugh at you. Right. That,that if you say something in disagreement
with the boss, that you knowthere's not going to be retaliation.
That's psychological safety.And when you have that, you're willing
and are more comfortablesharing ideas that may be outside
of the box. And that's whereinnovation comes from. Right. If
people aren't willing todisagree in a meeting, well, guess
(23:26):
what? Do I need both of youbecause you both did the same. We
want to bring diverseperspectives together, specifically
for innovation purposes. Andthen lastly, future sustainability.
Right. So how do we thinkabout building structures that last,
that really take into accountnot only the company's impact, but
(23:46):
the impact they have on thecommunity, on the environment, because
we are all citizens of thiscountry as well, whether we're an
organization or we think ofourselves as an individual. So those
are the five that I think arereally essential and important. And
I see these not only asprinciples for leaders, but there's
(24:07):
an infrastructure that goeswith it. Right. And practices that
you have to build in like, youknow, many Organizations struggle
with conflict, but they onlyare dealing with conflict when a
conflict comes up. You need tobe talking about conflict regularly.
Right. Giving feedbackregularly, whether it's good or bad.
Says the New Yorker. Yeah.
(24:28):
Just tell me what you're saying.
But that's, that's funnythough, right? Because there's. Let's
go there for a second. Right.Like joking. But I've known people
who have worked in and, orwith organizations with East Coasters
who maybe at first struggledwith it a little bit, but came to
a point of like, oh, but we'retalking about the issue. Issues.
(24:51):
Like we are. Everything's outin the open. No one's mad at each
other. We're willing to callout what we're seeing and what some
of the problems are thatpeople don't want to talk about.
And then when they try tobring that into like the gentler
Midwestern culture.
Yeah.
It's like, hang on, that's alittle rough. Right. And yeah, it
(25:13):
doesn't. But there's somethingabout. To your point on conflict
styles, right. And how do youwork with those styles? You said
something earlier that made methink too as well. So when we talk
about diversity, we're not,you know, just talking about. And
I think you. So I, I'll credityou for this too, where we're not
just talking about that firstring of, you know, diversity that
(25:35):
we see with our eyes. Right,Right. So it's, it's interesting
because I'm working on aprogram right now where my, my partner
and I are working on somedecision making stuff for our client
and we're talking about how doyou. And they had used disc right.
(25:55):
In the first part of theprogram and we were like, so we're
working on how do we helppeople be intentional about. Here's
my style. I'm being asked tosolve a problem with the group. How
do I make sure I'm payingattention to. Because it's all out
in the open, how we've talkedabout each other's discs, you know,
(26:15):
disc style or what have you.
Yeah.
Like, how do you make sureyou're hearing from the people who
have the opposite, you know,style as you as well. Right. So it's.
That's right.
There's a lot of ways. And Ithink you always said, you know,
all the ways that we're different.
All the ways. And thatincludes everyone. My, my wife has
a great joke. She, because I'man extrovert, she's an introvert.
(26:36):
And so she says that I'm amicrowave and she's a crock. Pot,
pot. And it's so true. Like ifyou, if we're coming up with an idea
for vacation, like, I'mpopping out the ideas and I'm hearing
them for the first time as sheis, you know, so, like, that's the
way I work. Right. And that'swhere I get my energy, where she
has to go away, think aboutit, maybe do a little research, put
(26:56):
together a deck. No, shedoesn't go that far. But, you know,
she's got a perk. She's got aprocess. And I wasn't familiar with
processing by yourself. Right.I've always processed out loud. Yeah.
Isn't that how thinking is done?
Exactly.
Right. Out loud.
And then we put these valuejudgments on it. Right. Like, you
know, as an introvert, youmight be like, gosh, what? Chit chat?
(27:19):
All they do is like chit chatall the time. Or can we just get
to the point? You know, ifyou're an extrovert, you might be
like, are you listening to me?Because I don't see any expression
on your face. Exactly. Sothat's a really simple diversity
difference, but it can reallymake or break a relationship, can
make or break a team. And sohelping people to recognize diversity
(27:43):
in small ways and the big waysand that we're not just one of these
things. Like, I'm just notjust Latina or black. Like I'm all
of the. I'm a researcher, I'man educator, I'm a, you know, and
I can't experience one part ofmyself without the other. So let's
think about each other aswhole beings.
Yeah, yeah. So tell me, the five.
(28:06):
Yes.
Competencies, are you calling them?
Yep. Principles. Lead with,lead with, integrity. Build the right
conditions, empower people togrow, create a culture of belonging
and build for future sustainability.
Nice. Nice. Can we talk aboutbelonging for a second?
Yes.
Right. Because I feel likethat was just coming into more discussion.
(28:32):
Somebody listening to this,whose DEI team was on belonging five,
six, seven years ago, they'lldisagree with me, which is fine because
everybody's on their own sortof journey with where they're at.
But I feel like, you know, itwas only four or five years ago when
I feel like belonging startedcoming in in a big way. Right. And
I think you said, you saidwhat can be a real triggering word
(28:54):
for some people, which ispsychological safety. Right. Because
I feel like that has been. Andthat's one of those terms that's
sort of been twisted to beginto, you know, a bit as well, right.
So I would love for you tojust. Love to hear your thoughts
on. Love to hear your thoughtson psychological safety.
Yes. Yeah. So, you know, oneof the things that I kept hearing
(29:15):
a lot and also experiencingfrom. From staff members is, you
know, they're wantinginformation. Right. Like they're
wanting to the transparencyand things like that. And without
that, people feel like theycan't trust the leaders. Right. So
there was this us kind ofversus them mentality. People always
(29:36):
talk also talked about, like,not being able to share, you know,
diverging opinions because of,you know, retaliation or what have
you. And it's created thisculture where we just, we don't trust
first. Right. We kind of hangback and it's like, you got to prove
the trust. And, and also Ithink there's some level of what's
(30:01):
just hard work. You know,what, what is it when you're doing
a hard thing? Because you'regoing to be uncomfortable when you're
doing a hard thing. But thenalso what's the difference of when
there's a damaging thinghappening? Right. So I could be going
through something really hardand it's going to be uncomfortable,
and that's good because that'sgoing to me. But then there's also
(30:23):
the I'm going through thisthing, but it's actually hurting
me. Right. What we want to dowith psychological safety is we want
to understand the things thatmay be hurting the team. Right. What,
what are the things that arepulling away? And that is feeling
that you can trust peopleenough to share your opinion. It
(30:43):
doesn't mean I feel safeenough to talk about my political
beliefs. That's not whatyou're paid for. Right. You're in
the workplace to bring yourexpertise. Right. So you all. Psychological
safety also has to have aboundary around it.
Yeah.
When we're talking about theworkplace. Right. Because we can
get real loosey goosey on thatand be like, well, it means that
(31:05):
I need to be comfortable atall times. That's not what it means.
Right. So it's alsochallenging people to, to know that
it's okay to go through hardthings. And it doesn't mean that,
you know, it's. It's not apsychologically safe place. Right.
But when you feel like youhave to hold back, like, I remember
(31:27):
one time I was at anorganization where I. I was new and
I gave an idea like that firstweek, and in that meeting, somebody
shut me down right away. Theywere like, we did that before five
years ago. It didn't work.
Okay.
And I Never said anything inthat. In that particular committee
meeting. For the rest of mytime in that organization, whenever
(31:48):
I was in that group, I heldback because I didn't feel safe.
So that's a great example ofwhere you were missing. Right. The
ideas, thinking that peoplecould bring to the table.
Yeah. So you and I weretalking about ROI right before we
started recording.
Yeah.
And I was saying that I feellike we were. Before I left DEI to
(32:11):
get back into talentmanagement, before I started my own
consulting, I feel like wewere exiting the world of having
to quantify everything. Withroi, we were in a place of because
it's the right thing. And Ifeel like now we're. We've taken,
you know, and maybe that'salways the way change goes is two
steps forward, one step back.But I feel like we're one step back
(32:32):
to ROI land again.
Yes.
With psychological safety. Onething that I frequently talk to people
about is innovation. Right.Like, if people don't feel safe to
experiment, try something new,then you're just going to keep getting,
you know, more of the same.Like, from an ROI perspective, Like,
(32:52):
there's so many things, youknow, and to your point, we're not
talking about safety andauthenticity to a point of messiness.
We're talking about safeenough to ask hard questions, throw
out new ideas, try somethingnew without fear of, you know, retribution.
Like, imagine the person whofirst was, like, at the telephone
(33:14):
company meeting, hey, whatabout a phone that you could walk
around with? What was thereaction? Right.
Like, I have, like, an SNLmoment in my head of how that person
was laughed out of the room.
Yeah, exactly. And then theycreate their own company.
And they're like, nonsense.
But that comes from Uber Lyft,you know, like Instacart. What if
(33:38):
we let other people do ourgrocery shopping? God forbid?
Right, right. It's the onlyway to do it these days.
That's right. That's right.
Yeah. Well, before we get intothe advice section, is there anything
else you'd want to add to this conversation?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's awonderful time in this. In this time
that we're in, to really tapback into your values and your internal
(34:03):
compass, because there's somuch noise out there that it's. Sometimes
you get caught up in whichdirection am I going? And you find
yourself, like, not feelingengaged and not feeling passionate
about what you're doing. Andyou have one life. We all have one
life. So how can we tap intothose things that we're passionate
about and really live into ourfull potential. I think if we continue
(34:25):
to work on that, we're goingin the right direction.
Nice, nice. Okay, so we'regoing to get into our takeaways section.
So. So I ask every guest toprepare one piece of advice for leaders,
one piece of advice for thosewho support leaders, and then other
things. So let's first gowith, you know, what advice do you
have for leaders out there?Leaders of teams that they can be
(34:49):
thinking about or putting intopractice immediately.
Yeah. And I'm just pulling upmy notes here because I spent some
time, I was like, okay, I'mgoing to give them some good advice.
So is, know your people like,you know your metrics, you know,
where's your people dashboard?Do you know, like, how people are
feeling? What's getting intheir way? Right. What are their
(35:12):
challenges? What are they tooafraid to tell you? When you start
to really tap into that, the.The performance is going to follow.
Right. But you can get profitsand really be burning your people
out. So you got to know both.You got to be able to balance both.
I also think we got to moveaway from culture fit to culture
(35:33):
contribution. And, you know,with culture fit, it's always like,
how do you fit in to what wealready have? But we're trying to
live into the future, right?Like, we want companies that are
going to exist and be thrivingin the future. So we've got to think
about, like, how does eachindividual person contribute to where
(35:54):
the organization is going? Andsometimes that means that you have
to bring in people that canfill a blind spot for you. Right.
You might. Might have acomplete blind spot around maybe
this particular market. Right.Or these particular strategies, bring
in people that it's going tofill that gap and. And then you're
going to have, you know, muchstronger team.
(36:16):
Yeah, I love that in selectionassessments, when we're doing sort
of like a pre call to findout, all right, we understand the
role you're trying to fill.Some of the questions we ask are,
where's this group heading? Sodon't. Let's not just paint a picture
of the incumbent, the personwho was in the role before. What
do you need now? What do youneed tomorrow that we can help you
(36:36):
assess?
That's right. That's so true.And then design a practice of reflection.
I think a lot of the work thatI talk about in my People first process
requires us to do internalreflection, right. Not just go, go,
go, but reflect on whatworked, what didn't. Am I connecting
(36:58):
with this person or did theydisconnect from me. Am I building
trust or do they distrust me?And now I have to rebuild trust.
Right? We, we're not going toget those things instantaneously.
We've got to go back andreflect and extract the wisdom from
our experiences in order to beable to move forward and apply them
and not make the samemistakes. So practice.
(37:20):
All right, so then I said someadvice for folks who support leaders,
right? So that's other leaderswho are managing other leaders or
people in support functionslike our HR friends. So what's your
advice for those folks?
Number one, take care ofyourself. Right. I think we often,
you know, show up so much forour companies that we forget like,
(37:41):
like we are also human beingand we can't serve unless we have,
you know, served ourselvesfirst. So that means making sure
that you're getting the sleep,that you've got the balance that
you need, that you're going tothe doctor, you're taking care of
your health. Right. Yourmental health. There's a lot more
focus on that now as thereshould be. So I think that that's
(38:01):
number one. That way you canbring your best to the table. Two,
don't be afraid of conflict.
Right.
So this is the same. I saidleaders, but also just people in
general. You know, we don'thave to be afraid of conflict because
what we focus on is theconflict part, the part that hurts
or feels uncomfortable. Butwhat we don't focus on is the transformation
(38:24):
that comes as a result of theconflict of the trust that you build
as a result of getting throughthat conflict. And if we can kind
of of, you know, maybe have alittle bit of a paradigm shift, focus
on those, you know, outcomesthat you get.
Right. Focus on the problem.
Exactly. And also have like aframework for how you're gonna, you
(38:44):
know, deal with conflict sothat you're not making it up, you
know, on the fly. Idefinitely, I'm not comfortable with,
with giving critical feedback,but I have to do it. So I have like
a method and then I actuallysit down with myself and I write
out my work words that I'mgonna say and I don't read from it,
but I wanted to, I want to bestrategic enough, Right. So that
(39:06):
my message comes across andthen I'm not hurting someone. Right.
Like, I don't want people tofeel like, oh, that now their self
worth is, is impacted. Right.I want them to get value out of that
feedback or whatever theconflict is.
Nice. All right, well, and Iknow you have some things upcoming,
so I'm, I'm guessing our, oursort of grab bag section here is
(39:27):
going to be Tell us where tofind Cecilia. What do you have coming
up and, and what can people beon the lookout for? Cool.
Well, I can always be found onStanton Adams.com and if you're on
LinkedIn, you can look me up.Cecilia Stanton. I have a newsletter
that I put out every couple ofweeks and you can follow my journey
there. I will be launchingthis new People first model in the
(39:50):
next week, but on May 22, I'mgoing to be doing a free webinar.
It's one hour where I'll bewalking you through the process and
how I redesigned theframework. And then I'm also going
to be launching an 11 weekleadership class. It's called Leadership
by Design and it starts inSeptember. And it's really meant
to help leaders build thosefive capabilities and principles
(40:14):
that I talked about and do itin real time. So we're going to have
leadership labs where everyother week you'll actually be able
to apply the information andget coaching and support from your
peers. So I'm really lookingforward to that. So you can find
that in the show notes.
Awesome. Yes, those will be inthe show notes. And this will come
out just before, so I'll makesure we also link to your webinar
(40:36):
on the 22nd.
You said yes, that's right. Awesome.
Cecilia. I'll have to have youon another five times, I think.
Oh, for sure. You gotta followhow this goes. I mean. Yeah.
Well, I thank you so much. I.I think this is a great conversation,
I think for our listeners,definitely for me. So listener of
one right here. But thank youso much for coming today. Really
(40:59):
appreciate it. I always valueour time together, whether it's in
a public forum like this ornot. So thank you so much.
My pleasure. Anytime. Thanks, Ken.
Yeah, take it easy.
Bye.
That brings us to the end ofour episode. Thanks for listening.
I'd encourage you to head onover to my website, Kent Coach, and
start a conversation with methere. Or check out my promotion
(41:19):
playbook at Kent CoachPlaybook. Before you go on with your
day, I ask that you pleasetake a moment to leave a rating and
a review wherever you listento podcasts. Five stars. That helps
put this podcast in front ofmore eyes and ears. Until next time,
take it easy.
I also think we got to moveaway from culture fit to culture
contribution. And, you know,with culture fit, it's always like,
how do you fit in to what wealready have? But we're trying to
live into the future, right?Like, we want companies that are
going to exist and be thrivingin the future. So we've got to think
about, like, how does eachindividual person contribute to where
(00:29):
the organization is going?
Hi there and welcome to theStep Up Expert Voices for Leadership
Growth. I'm your host, KentKnieble. Every week I talk to experts
who focus on helping leadersstep up their leadership game. If
you're new to the show, thenon whatever platform you're using,
I encourage you to subscribeso you never miss an episode. One
last thing. As a leadershipdevelopment consultant and executive
(00:51):
coach, I have a particularinterest in supporting recent internally
promoted leaders. If that'syou or if you support a leader who
has been recently promoted, Iencourage you to visit my website
at Kent Coach Playbook anddownload a free copy of my 90 day
blueprint filled withpractical advice for you or the leader
you support in hitting theground running and truly stepping
up to their new leadershiplevel. Without further ado, on with
(01:14):
the show. Welcome, everyone.Today we are talking about leading
inclusively through a time ofpushback and. And I'm honored today
to have Cecilia Stanton Adamswith me for this conversation today.
We've known each other forsome time. I'm so excited you were
able to make time to be onhere today. Welcome.
Yes. So glad to be here, Kent.And great to see you. Congratulations.
(01:37):
So great to see the show.
Thank you. Thank you. Well, Iwould love to, because I think your
own story, I think, is goingto dovetail because of what you do.
It's going to dovetail rightinto our topic. So I'd love for you
to kick us off with just tellus about your career arc, how you
got into this work. And like Isaid, I think that's going to go
right into our topic.
Perfect. Well, I always liketo start with, I was born and raised
(02:01):
in New York City because whenyou once you're a New Yorker, like,
you're always a New Yorker,even though I'm Minnesota now, but
I was born to two immigrantparents, so my parents are from Honduras
and they migrated to. To NewYork City and they met in New York
City, actually in Macy'scafeteria. So, yeah. Really? Really.
(02:23):
But yeah, there's my brotherand I and my parents just really
wanted us to have a goodfuture. Right. They came to this
country, so that There wouldbe more opportunities, and particularly
they wanted us to takeadvantage of schooling. So I was
the first in my family to goto college and graduate school. I
did a research doctoralfellowship. So I got a chance to
(02:44):
really do a lot of greatthings that I probably wouldn't have
had it not been for my parentssacrifice. But when I got into undergrad,
I was really interested andunderstanding more about diversity.
And I'm from New York, right?So you live and breed diversity.
You just, you're, you'resurrounded by people that look different,
you know, they, they worshipdifferent. And so I wanted to understand,
(03:08):
you know, how do you bringpeople together from diverse backgrounds
and get them to really connectand build trust. And this was actually
during the time of the O.J.simpson trial. So I don't take you
way back. So there was alittle bit of contention in the air
around what that outcome wasgoing to be. And so at the time,
(03:28):
my advisor helped me to puttogether a project where I invited
people that had differingviews around the O.J. simpson trial,
brought them together, and wedid a series of trust building exercises.
And then we had them slowlykind of move into dialogue about
the trials. And what welearned was that if you can build
(03:48):
trust with people acrossdifference, that you can have enough
of a foundation to be able totalk about differing views. And you
may not change your views, butthat's not the point. People actually
become more open to listeningto other views. Whether it changes
it or not is reallyirrelevant. It's really that that's
(04:11):
how we expose ourselves to newand different things. Right. And
ways of doing things. So Ilove that. And that just kind of
fueled everything that I woulddo from there, which is how do I
tap into this more, how do Ihelp managers and leaders tap into
this potential that we havewith people, knowing that you have
to create right kind ofenvironment. So around this time
(04:34):
also, the whole field of likediversity was becoming more prevalent.
It had come out of theaffirmative action movement and really
they went away from thinkingabout it in terms of quotas into
thinking about it as, youknow, part of the culture. Right.
Like, how do you actuallycreate a culture where people belong?
(04:54):
And so I worked with severaluniversities to, you know, bring
that mindset and thoseprinciples into the colleges and
universities so that students,no matter what background they came
from, could succeed, that theycould bring faculty from anywhere
around the world and theywould still be able to bring them
in and get them to feel like apart of that community. And that's
(05:18):
what just really locked andloaded me into this career track.
Now we call it dei. So mycareer kind of took me through the
whole. First was D and IDiversity and Inclusion. Then it
was DEI Diversity, Equity,Equity and Inclusion. Now we have
a whole lot of other kind ofname entitlings.
(05:39):
Yeah, I think the one that wasthe most bizarre one I heard was
Jedi, which I. I loved. I lovethe thinking behind it.
Right.
Maybe too nerdy for most.
Yes. Right. So people gotcreative. But really, you know, I
think what's most important isthe. The bottom line of the work,
which is how can we createenvironments where everyone can succeed?
(06:04):
Right. There's so muchpotential that every individual brings,
and yet we don't necessarilyhave the right environments in the
workplace to bring that out ofpeople. But if we do, we actually
see them thrive. We actuallysee their loyalty to the company
and to who they work forincrease. And so there's. There's
(06:26):
something to this that, youknow, I feel like has developed over
the years of doing DEI work. Iworked inside many organizations
like Buffalo Wild Wings, whereI work together. Alianz Life Insurance
Company. So it's a globalfinancial services company, and many
others. And I. In 2010, mywife and I decided we wanted to start
(06:50):
our own practice because wewanted to also be able to develop
tools and resources and thingsthat the companies I was working
for weren't really maybeinterested or ready for at the time.
And through that work, we wereable to develop tools and different
strategies to helporganizations really start thinking
critically about this,measuring it, and actually putting
(07:12):
in solutions that actuallymade sense. And they're not the quotas
that we hear about now. Whenthey talk about DI in the media,
they tend to say, like,illegal diversity and that it's discriminatory.
Discrimination isdiscrimination no matter who it is,
too. It's illegal. It's alwaysbeen illegal, and it's still illegal
(07:33):
today. Right. But how do wereintroduce this in a way that people
can. Can really see thebenefit of it and not be kind of
stuck?
So before we. Before we gothere, a couple things from your.
Couple things from your. Yourpast. Right. So you. You've kind
of floated between now in yourHR roles, right? You've kind of floated
(07:54):
between leadershipdevelopment, OD talent, and dni.
Am I right or.
Yes.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah.
So I didn't realize how earlyyour roots in DEI began.
Yeah.
I swear, you floated through anumber of these. So I know in my
experience, Right. I had thegood fortune to be in a DEI role
for a few years, and then Wasable to quickly see how it's a part
(08:20):
of everything that I wasdoing. And then when I moved into
a talent management role,again, I was like, this is all a
part of it still. But I'd loveto just hear your thoughts, thoughts
on the intersection of theseexperiences you've had, especially
those internal roles andbecause clearly you keep coming back
to dei.
Exactly. And my, my backgroundis, you know, I got my undergrad
(08:41):
degree in psychology and Ireally focused on how people develop
their own sense of identity,especially if you're not a part of
majority culture. Right.Because then it's harder to really
get grounded in who you are.When I went to Lehigh University,
I did a predoctoral fellowshipand I studied unconscious bias in
(09:02):
the lab where we actually ranstudies. So research background.
And then I got my master'sdegree in sociology because I wanted
to figure out, how do you dowhat. How do you pull all these people
together and really operatewithin an organization? And then
I got my master's at CapellaUniversity in industrial psychology,
which takes all that work andputs it in the organization. So I
(09:25):
already had a pretty goodfoundation of thinking about the
interconnections of theorganization and the challenges that
they were having with bringingpeople in from different backgrounds.
And of course, working in thatfield really helps you to understand
where those things are. Like,for example, in a lot of organizations,
(09:46):
there are class differencesand class, socioeconomic class is
kind of one of those invisiblethings where we don't really see
it, but it has a huge impacton people's lives within organizations.
And it's surprising even howit comes out, even symbolically.
So I worked with oneorganization where, you know, all
(10:06):
of the, the employees thatwere like customer service and more
of the, you know, lower in theorganization positions were all located
in one part of the building.And then all of the. The leadership
and higher level positionswere located in the different part
of the building. Right. Soeven that kind of sets up who you're
around, who you're talking to,who you bring in to a conversation
(10:29):
when you're working on a project.
Yeah. I worked at a. A coupleof organizations that I worked for,
have very long standingcollege recruiting efforts, same
colleges, year over year. Andthat was one that came up too, as,
you know, the affinity biasone had for those who went to the
(10:49):
same college as them.
Yes, exactly.
Who got the plum assignmentsand, or, you know, chosen early.
So I want to give you a bigcompliment before we move into the
conversation too, because I.Yes. Buckle up. I always credit you
for this. You have no ideathis is coming either. I know when
we first met, you were the DEIdepartment of one.
(11:12):
Yes.
And the amount of work thatyou were able to get done always
astounded me. Right. And you.You. You preceded me there. Right.
So I came into. You hadalready laid all. All this groundwork.
And I always credit you foryour ability to get things done through,
like, a. That inclusivecommittee of the like, passionate,
(11:38):
interested, willing. Right. Ithink you had gotten. That was at
Buffalo Wild Wings. I justthink you had gotten so much done
there through volunteer work.Right. Through people who were just
passionate about it. So I justwanted to credit you for, you know,
your ability to bring peoplealong. I have another compliment
for you, but I'm gonna. I'mgonna share it later, I promise.
(11:58):
Okay. So let's. Let's. Let'sdovetail into. Right. So we wanted
to talk today about. It's beena rocky year. Right. Especially for
folks who are working in theDEI space. But I feel like, you know,
you're starting to emerge withsome new thinking here, thinking
about how do we leadinclusively through these sort of.
(12:21):
How did I put it earlier?Through kind of a time of pushback.
So where are you heading? Whatare your thoughts here?
Yeah, so probably about a yearbefore the elections was when I really
started to become in tune withwhat was happening around this shift
around dei. Now, of course, itwas happening long before then in.
(12:41):
In smaller ways, but it's whenI first got, you know, kind of an
idea of it, and I joined thisgroup. It's. It's called iac. It's
an allies coalition. So it'smade up of DI champions and leaders
from around the country. Andwhat. What was beautiful about it
is we got to hear from peoplethat were in states that already
(13:03):
had laws being put in place tolimit diversity work. So even though
I'm here in Minnesota, I canhear what is being tested, what's
being piloted, and it startedto make us realize this is happening,
and we've got to get ready,and we've got to get ready to get
our people, the folks thathave been doing this work, to really
(13:25):
understand the implicationsand what we need to do to. To evolve
in this particular area. And Ithink the thing that has been really
hard is the grieving processthat people. I see that I am helping,
that I myself am also goingthrough, because this has been a
(13:47):
movement, you know, in. Youknow, some people spend their whole
life in this movement thatdates back, you know, many, many
decades. And it's not justabout one group, right. It's. It's
about so many people that seein, in diversity, equity, inclusion,
and understand that it's notjust for certain groups, Right. But
it's really meant to bringeveryone, you know, together and
(14:11):
everyone to have a place atthe table. And so that grieving process
is hard because you can't bestrategic when you're grieving, right?
Like, you just have to attendto your own, you know, wherever you're
at and really give yourselfwhat you need. Being a part of that
IAC group a year earlierreally helped me to get to the strategy
(14:32):
quicker. And so as of January,that's what I started to do. I'm
like, here are the outcomesthat I want to get to. Here are the
outcomes that were alwaysimportant to me. And that is, you
know, having people haveaccess to opportunities like education,
right. Kids being able to havethe basic skill sets that they need,
you know, to be successful,you know, to be able to move into
(14:55):
a career path and if youchoose, and actually be able to thrive.
And that wasn't happening foreveryone. So that was my goal post,
and it wasn't about any oneparticular group. You know, I come
from a multiracial family, youknow, and I've got a lot of different
dimensions of diversity. So Ifeel like every dimension of diversity
(15:16):
is important to be consideringin this, this kind of work. So how
can we do that in a differentway? And I think the first strategy
that a lot of folks use is tochange the name, right? That was
kind of like the first,easiest call.
Let's just call it something different.
Just call it something different.
No one will notice.
Exactly. But when we call itsomething different, we're doing
(15:37):
something different. It'sultimately going to take you to a
different end. And, and so Ifelt like I was continually developing
diversity 2.0, like justtaking what I'd already done and
just kind of doing it a littledifferently. And I, I realized this
is not going to work anymore.Like, we've evolved as a world and
(15:59):
as a country so much sincethese frameworks have existed, even
our leadership frameworks. Sohow do we re envision and redesign
the work so that we actuallyare getting to the outcomes? That's
what's most important. And sothat's what led me to the work that
I'm doing now around peoplefirst performing frameworks.
(16:21):
So it makes me think aboutmore from a leadership and OD perspective,
how people experience change.And we use the Sarah model in a lot
of contexts. Shock, anger,rejection, acceptance, and for the
listener, you know, peoplemake their way through that in their
own time. So you started. Youwere experiencing shock sooner, so
you were able to kind of startand work your way through to a productive
(16:45):
place a little faster. When Ithink, you know, people are still
probably in the shock phase.Right. We were especially here in
Minnesota, in the Twin Citiesarea. I know when I was in dni, I
always describe it like itfelt like it was before I left dni,
that it was more of a pull. Atthat time, business units were asking
(17:07):
us for more. How do we domore? How do we lead more inclusively?
How do we make sure peoplebelong. Right. That they feel like
they belong here? And so itwas rather than us sitting in a corner
designing and trying to pushcontent out, the requests were coming
in to build content to bringin. Right. So I. And I think that
was a change that came over time.
(17:29):
Yeah.
Where it felt like we werepushing out the content. Now they're
asking for content. I use theword content, but, you know, whatever
it is that they're looking for.
Yep.
And I feel like now the. We'reseeing it in the news, right. That
it's like the train tracks,which has kind of flipped right now.
There's this, like, Hang on.
Yeah.
I feel like some organizationsare readily saying, we're not doing
(17:51):
this anymore. Some arewondering, if we keep doing this,
is there going to be a targeton our backs? So they're getting
quiet. And then there's someorganizations who are just leaning
in and saying, no, this is. Toyour point. Right. This is something
we value and is important tohow we're doing business.
That's right. That's right.And I think more people would continue
(18:11):
doing the work if they knewhow to do it well.
Yeah.
Right. I think everyone wantsto avoid, you know, any kind of programs
or things like that that shutanyone out. And I think what we learned
through this process over thepast few years is that some people
don't feel a part of, youknow, things. And, you know, sometimes
(18:35):
we have to be humble and wehave to say, okay, where could we
maybe do things differently?And I wasn't willing to do that before.
And I, like, that's where thegrieving process has to come. But
then you get to a point whereit's like, okay, does it matter more
that I'm right, or does itmatter more that we get to the outcomes
that. Yeah. Right. And so itmeans, am I trying.
(19:00):
To put a personal point on theboard, or are we all trying to get
to the end Goal. Exactly.
And even as I'm watchingpeople navigate the political landscape
right now, people, we all havedifferent views, but at the end of
the day, most people want, youknow, some good for their family.
They want to be able to putfood on the table. They want to be
(19:21):
able to have a, you know, job,bring in income. Right. And. And
that hasn't been true for alot of people or a lot of cohorts
of people. And so we've got totake a look again and figure out,
you know, how do we. How do werelook at? How do we redesign? Because
I don't think we have theanswer yet.
So here comes your secondcompliment. I promised you it was
coming because I knew youwould say it. I've always found you
(19:43):
to be just really generous.Right. In terms of the grace that
you give for others, that yougive to others. Right. That I've
never heard you once speakfrom a place of, like, judgment.
Right. That you're all. You'reCecilia Stanton Adams focus is always
like, how do we lock arms andget there together? So. And I've
(20:06):
just really also appreciatedthat in your approach.
Thank you so much.
I'll see if I can come up withanother one before we're done.
Okay. I love them. I'm gettingused to this.
So. So you. You've kind ofbeen thinking about, where do we
go from here with. With wherewe're at today. So tell me where.
Where are you. Where are youthinking? Where are you going?
Yeah. So I started, you know,digging back into the research, and
(20:29):
I wanted to understand, like,what does the literature say around
leadership models? Right. Youknow, what have we learned from DEI
in terms of what worked andwhat didn't and what still holds
true in this new normal thatwe're in, where some people are working
hybrid, some are remote.Right. We have multiple generations
in the workplace. And what Icame up with was, you know, some
(20:52):
of the things that were justreally critical, no matter what,
I also looked at what are the.The new challenges, like AI. Right?
Like adopting technology.Like, that's for some organization,
that's still a huge hurdle.But to be competitive, you've got
to get in that space, andyou've got to have people that can
(21:13):
get in that space. And so thenI took those pieces and also kind
of built that into thisconcept. So I came up with five drivers
of a People first performanceframework, which is what I'm calling
it. The first is leading withintegrity. Right. And I know you.
You really believe in thatvery strongly. Talk a lot about that.
(21:35):
But leading with integrity,building the right cond. Right. Like
what's the infrastructureyou're putting in place? What are
the processes, the systemsthat are going to hold that up, empower
your people to grow. Iremember working for an organization
that was like, oh, we don'twant to develop them too much because
they may leave. And I'm like,okay, so would you rather them stay
(21:58):
and not be developed.
Because the under skilled.
Exactly. And you know, if, ifyou do develop them and they leave,
they're also going to leavewith a great, you know, reputation
of who you are or remember amemory of who you are and they may
come back. I've come back manyorganizations so you can't close
(22:20):
that door.
There's been different windowsfrom leadership development to talent
management where I've had tosay something similar, where it's
like if the worst casescenario is that you make this person
feel really good, good andthey have nothing but good things
to say about you, I don'tthink that that's a loss.
Correct, Exactly. Yeah. Or atbest case you are developing a talent
(22:43):
pipeline.
Right, Right. Yeah, yeah.
Which is. Yeah. What we need.So number four, create a culture
of belonging. Right. And thisis really thinking about psychological
safety, that you have to havea level of trust. I don't care who
you are, what background,race, ethnicity, religion, doesn't
matter. You have to have alevel of trust within the people
that you're working with thatthey're not going to judge you or
(23:04):
laugh at you. Right. That,that if you say something in disagreement
with the boss, that you knowthere's not going to be retaliation.
That's psychological safety.And when you have that, you're willing
and are more comfortablesharing ideas that may be outside
of the box. And that's whereinnovation comes from. Right. If
people aren't willing todisagree in a meeting, well, guess
(23:26):
what? Do I need both of youbecause you both did the same. We
want to bring diverseperspectives together, specifically
for innovation purposes. Andthen lastly, future sustainability.
Right. So how do we thinkabout building structures that last,
that really take into accountnot only the company's impact, but
(23:46):
the impact they have on thecommunity, on the environment, because
we are all citizens of thiscountry as well, whether we're an
organization or we think ofourselves as an individual. So those
are the five that I think arereally essential and important. And
I see these not only asprinciples for leaders, but there's
(24:07):
an infrastructure that goeswith it. Right. And practices that
you have to build in like, youknow, many Organizations struggle
with conflict, but they onlyare dealing with conflict when a
conflict comes up. You need tobe talking about conflict regularly.
Right. Giving feedbackregularly, whether it's good or bad.
Says the New Yorker. Yeah.
(24:28):
Just tell me what you're saying.
But that's, that's funnythough, right? Because there's. Let's
go there for a second. Right.Like joking. But I've known people
who have worked in and, orwith organizations with East Coasters
who maybe at first struggledwith it a little bit, but came to
a point of like, oh, but we'retalking about the issue. Issues.
(24:51):
Like we are. Everything's outin the open. No one's mad at each
other. We're willing to callout what we're seeing and what some
of the problems are thatpeople don't want to talk about.
And then when they try tobring that into like the gentler
Midwestern culture.
Yeah.
It's like, hang on, that's alittle rough. Right. And yeah, it
(25:13):
doesn't. But there's somethingabout. To your point on conflict
styles, right. And how do youwork with those styles? You said
something earlier that made methink too as well. So when we talk
about diversity, we're not,you know, just talking about. And
I think you. So I, I'll credityou for this too, where we're not
just talking about that firstring of, you know, diversity that
(25:35):
we see with our eyes. Right,Right. So it's, it's interesting
because I'm working on aprogram right now where my, my partner
and I are working on somedecision making stuff for our client
and we're talking about how doyou. And they had used disc right.
(25:55):
In the first part of theprogram and we were like, so we're
working on how do we helppeople be intentional about. Here's
my style. I'm being asked tosolve a problem with the group. How
do I make sure I'm payingattention to. Because it's all out
in the open, how we've talkedabout each other's discs, you know,
(26:15):
disc style or what have you.
Yeah.
Like, how do you make sureyou're hearing from the people who
have the opposite, you know,style as you as well. Right. So it's.
That's right.
There's a lot of ways. And Ithink you always said, you know,
all the ways that we're different.
All the ways. And thatincludes everyone. My, my wife has
a great joke. She, because I'man extrovert, she's an introvert.
(26:36):
And so she says that I'm amicrowave and she's a crock. Pot,
pot. And it's so true. Like ifyou, if we're coming up with an idea
for vacation, like, I'mpopping out the ideas and I'm hearing
them for the first time as sheis, you know, so, like, that's the
way I work. Right. And that'swhere I get my energy, where she
has to go away, think aboutit, maybe do a little research, put
(26:56):
together a deck. No, shedoesn't go that far. But, you know,
she's got a perk. She's got aprocess. And I wasn't familiar with
processing by yourself. Right.I've always processed out loud. Yeah.
Isn't that how thinking is done?
Exactly.
Right. Out loud.
And then we put these valuejudgments on it. Right. Like, you
know, as an introvert, youmight be like, gosh, what? Chit chat?
(27:19):
All they do is like chit chatall the time. Or can we just get
to the point? You know, ifyou're an extrovert, you might be
like, are you listening to me?Because I don't see any expression
on your face. Exactly. Sothat's a really simple diversity
difference, but it can reallymake or break a relationship, can
make or break a team. And sohelping people to recognize diversity
(27:43):
in small ways and the big waysand that we're not just one of these
things. Like, I'm just notjust Latina or black. Like I'm all
of the. I'm a researcher, I'man educator, I'm a, you know, and
I can't experience one part ofmyself without the other. So let's
think about each other aswhole beings.
Yeah, yeah. So tell me, the five.
(28:06):
Yes.
Competencies, are you calling them?
Yep. Principles. Lead with,lead with, integrity. Build the right
conditions, empower people togrow, create a culture of belonging
and build for future sustainability.
Nice. Nice. Can we talk aboutbelonging for a second?
Yes.
Right. Because I feel likethat was just coming into more discussion.
(28:32):
Somebody listening to this,whose DEI team was on belonging five,
six, seven years ago, they'lldisagree with me, which is fine because
everybody's on their own sortof journey with where they're at.
But I feel like, you know, itwas only four or five years ago when
I feel like belonging startedcoming in in a big way. Right. And
I think you said, you saidwhat can be a real triggering word
(28:54):
for some people, which ispsychological safety. Right. Because
I feel like that has been. Andthat's one of those terms that's
sort of been twisted to beginto, you know, a bit as well, right.
So I would love for you tojust. Love to hear your thoughts
on. Love to hear your thoughtson psychological safety.
Yes. Yeah. So, you know, oneof the things that I kept hearing
(29:15):
a lot and also experiencingfrom. From staff members is, you
know, they're wantinginformation. Right. Like they're
wanting to the transparencyand things like that. And without
that, people feel like theycan't trust the leaders. Right. So
there was this us kind ofversus them mentality. People always
(29:36):
talk also talked about, like,not being able to share, you know,
diverging opinions because of,you know, retaliation or what have
you. And it's created thisculture where we just, we don't trust
first. Right. We kind of hangback and it's like, you got to prove
the trust. And, and also Ithink there's some level of what's
(30:01):
just hard work. You know,what, what is it when you're doing
a hard thing? Because you'regoing to be uncomfortable when you're
doing a hard thing. But thenalso what's the difference of when
there's a damaging thinghappening? Right. So I could be going
through something really hardand it's going to be uncomfortable,
and that's good because that'sgoing to me. But then there's also
(30:23):
the I'm going through thisthing, but it's actually hurting
me. Right. What we want to dowith psychological safety is we want
to understand the things thatmay be hurting the team. Right. What,
what are the things that arepulling away? And that is feeling
that you can trust peopleenough to share your opinion. It
(30:43):
doesn't mean I feel safeenough to talk about my political
beliefs. That's not whatyou're paid for. Right. You're in
the workplace to bring yourexpertise. Right. So you all. Psychological
safety also has to have aboundary around it.
Yeah.
When we're talking about theworkplace. Right. Because we can
get real loosey goosey on thatand be like, well, it means that
(31:05):
I need to be comfortable atall times. That's not what it means.
Right. So it's alsochallenging people to, to know that
it's okay to go through hardthings. And it doesn't mean that,
you know, it's. It's not apsychologically safe place. Right.
But when you feel like youhave to hold back, like, I remember
(31:27):
one time I was at anorganization where I. I was new and
I gave an idea like that firstweek, and in that meeting, somebody
shut me down right away. Theywere like, we did that before five
years ago. It didn't work.
Okay.
And I Never said anything inthat. In that particular committee
meeting. For the rest of mytime in that organization, whenever
(31:48):
I was in that group, I heldback because I didn't feel safe.
So that's a great example ofwhere you were missing. Right. The
ideas, thinking that peoplecould bring to the table.
Yeah. So you and I weretalking about ROI right before we
started recording.
Yeah.
And I was saying that I feellike we were. Before I left DEI to
(32:11):
get back into talentmanagement, before I started my own
consulting, I feel like wewere exiting the world of having
to quantify everything. Withroi, we were in a place of because
it's the right thing. And Ifeel like now we're. We've taken,
you know, and maybe that'salways the way change goes is two
steps forward, one step back.But I feel like we're one step back
(32:32):
to ROI land again.
Yes.
With psychological safety. Onething that I frequently talk to people
about is innovation. Right.Like, if people don't feel safe to
experiment, try something new,then you're just going to keep getting,
you know, more of the same.Like, from an ROI perspective, Like,
(32:52):
there's so many things, youknow, and to your point, we're not
talking about safety andauthenticity to a point of messiness.
We're talking about safeenough to ask hard questions, throw
out new ideas, try somethingnew without fear of, you know, retribution.
Like, imagine the person whofirst was, like, at the telephone
(33:14):
company meeting, hey, whatabout a phone that you could walk
around with? What was thereaction? Right.
Like, I have, like, an SNLmoment in my head of how that person
was laughed out of the room.
Yeah, exactly. And then theycreate their own company.
And they're like, nonsense.
But that comes from Uber Lyft,you know, like Instacart. What if
(33:38):
we let other people do ourgrocery shopping? God forbid?
Right, right. It's the onlyway to do it these days.
That's right. That's right.
Yeah. Well, before we get intothe advice section, is there anything
else you'd want to add to this conversation?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's awonderful time in this. In this time
that we're in, to really tapback into your values and your internal
(34:03):
compass, because there's somuch noise out there that it's. Sometimes
you get caught up in whichdirection am I going? And you find
yourself, like, not feelingengaged and not feeling passionate
about what you're doing. Andyou have one life. We all have one
life. So how can we tap intothose things that we're passionate
about and really live into ourfull potential. I think if we continue
(34:25):
to work on that, we're goingin the right direction.
Nice, nice. Okay, so we'regoing to get into our takeaways section.
So. So I ask every guest toprepare one piece of advice for leaders,
one piece of advice for thosewho support leaders, and then other
things. So let's first gowith, you know, what advice do you
have for leaders out there?Leaders of teams that they can be
(34:49):
thinking about or putting intopractice immediately.
Yeah. And I'm just pulling upmy notes here because I spent some
time, I was like, okay, I'mgoing to give them some good advice.
So is, know your people like,you know your metrics, you know,
where's your people dashboard?Do you know, like, how people are
feeling? What's getting intheir way? Right. What are their
(35:12):
challenges? What are they tooafraid to tell you? When you start
to really tap into that, the.The performance is going to follow.
Right. But you can get profitsand really be burning your people
out. So you got to know both.You got to be able to balance both.
I also think we got to moveaway from culture fit to culture
(35:33):
contribution. And, you know,with culture fit, it's always like,
how do you fit in to what wealready have? But we're trying to
live into the future, right?Like, we want companies that are
going to exist and be thrivingin the future. So we've got to think
about, like, how does eachindividual person contribute to where
(35:54):
the organization is going? Andsometimes that means that you have
to bring in people that canfill a blind spot for you. Right.
You might. Might have acomplete blind spot around maybe
this particular market. Right.Or these particular strategies, bring
in people that it's going tofill that gap and. And then you're
going to have, you know, muchstronger team.
(36:16):
Yeah, I love that in selectionassessments, when we're doing sort
of like a pre call to findout, all right, we understand the
role you're trying to fill.Some of the questions we ask are,
where's this group heading? Sodon't. Let's not just paint a picture
of the incumbent, the personwho was in the role before. What
do you need now? What do youneed tomorrow that we can help you
(36:36):
assess?
That's right. That's so true.And then design a practice of reflection.
I think a lot of the work thatI talk about in my People first process
requires us to do internalreflection, right. Not just go, go,
go, but reflect on whatworked, what didn't. Am I connecting
(36:58):
with this person or did theydisconnect from me. Am I building
trust or do they distrust me?And now I have to rebuild trust.
Right? We, we're not going toget those things instantaneously.
We've got to go back andreflect and extract the wisdom from
our experiences in order to beable to move forward and apply them
and not make the samemistakes. So practice.
(37:20):
All right, so then I said someadvice for folks who support leaders,
right? So that's other leaderswho are managing other leaders or
people in support functionslike our HR friends. So what's your
advice for those folks?
Number one, take care ofyourself. Right. I think we often,
you know, show up so much forour companies that we forget like,
(37:41):
like we are also human beingand we can't serve unless we have,
you know, served ourselvesfirst. So that means making sure
that you're getting the sleep,that you've got the balance that
you need, that you're going tothe doctor, you're taking care of
your health. Right. Yourmental health. There's a lot more
focus on that now as thereshould be. So I think that that's
(38:01):
number one. That way you canbring your best to the table. Two,
don't be afraid of conflict.
Right.
So this is the same. I saidleaders, but also just people in
general. You know, we don'thave to be afraid of conflict because
what we focus on is theconflict part, the part that hurts
or feels uncomfortable. Butwhat we don't focus on is the transformation
(38:24):
that comes as a result of theconflict of the trust that you build
as a result of getting throughthat conflict. And if we can kind
of of, you know, maybe have alittle bit of a paradigm shift, focus
on those, you know, outcomesthat you get.
Right. Focus on the problem.
Exactly. And also have like aframework for how you're gonna, you
(38:44):
know, deal with conflict sothat you're not making it up, you
know, on the fly. Idefinitely, I'm not comfortable with,
with giving critical feedback,but I have to do it. So I have like
a method and then I actuallysit down with myself and I write
out my work words that I'mgonna say and I don't read from it,
but I wanted to, I want to bestrategic enough, Right. So that
(39:06):
my message comes across andthen I'm not hurting someone. Right.
Like, I don't want people tofeel like, oh, that now their self
worth is, is impacted. Right.I want them to get value out of that
feedback or whatever theconflict is.
Nice. All right, well, and Iknow you have some things upcoming,
so I'm, I'm guessing our, oursort of grab bag section here is
(39:27):
going to be Tell us where tofind Cecilia. What do you have coming
up and, and what can people beon the lookout for? Cool.
Well, I can always be found onStanton Adams.com and if you're on
LinkedIn, you can look me up.Cecilia Stanton. I have a newsletter
that I put out every couple ofweeks and you can follow my journey
there. I will be launchingthis new People first model in the
(39:50):
next week, but on May 22, I'mgoing to be doing a free webinar.
It's one hour where I'll bewalking you through the process and
how I redesigned theframework. And then I'm also going
to be launching an 11 weekleadership class. It's called Leadership
by Design and it starts inSeptember. And it's really meant
to help leaders build thosefive capabilities and principles
(40:14):
that I talked about and do itin real time. So we're going to have
leadership labs where everyother week you'll actually be able
to apply the information andget coaching and support from your
peers. So I'm really lookingforward to that. So you can find
that in the show notes.
Awesome. Yes, those will be inthe show notes. And this will come
out just before, so I'll makesure we also link to your webinar
(40:36):
on the 22nd.
You said yes, that's right. Awesome.
Cecilia. I'll have to have youon another five times, I think.
Oh, for sure. You gotta followhow this goes. I mean. Yeah.
Well, I thank you so much. I.I think this is a great conversation,
I think for our listeners,definitely for me. So listener of
one right here. But thank youso much for coming today. Really
(40:59):
appreciate it. I always valueour time together, whether it's in
a public forum like this ornot. So thank you so much.
My pleasure. Anytime. Thanks, Ken.
Yeah, take it easy.
Bye.
That brings us to the end ofour episode. Thanks for listening.
I'd encourage you to head onover to my website, Kent Coach, and
start a conversation with methere. Or check out my promotion
(41:19):
playbook at Kent CoachPlaybook. Before you go on with your
day, I ask that you pleasetake a moment to leave a rating and
a review wherever you listento podcasts. Five stars. That helps
put this podcast in front ofmore eyes and ears. Until next time,
take it easy.
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