October 7, 2025 • 44 mins
Dr. Benjamin Ritter, is a certified leadership and career coach, and author of the Amazon best-seller Becoming Fearless. He is the founder of Live for Yourself (LFY) Consulting and is passionate about creating a world where people live and work fearlessly. Ben has coached over 500 leaders with a strong focus on senior-level executives across multiple industries and geographic regions, within organizations that have included names such as Amazon, Coursera, DoorDash, Google, Fiserv, Northwestern, Mayo Clinic, Pinterest, Yelp, and more.
Are we giving our power away at work, or are we stepping up and owning our careers? That's the big question we're diving into today. Quitting a job or asking to work on a project might sound like no-brainers, but let me tell you, it’s not as simple as it seems—it’s a major life decision! We chat with Dr. Benjamin Ritter, a certified leadership and career coach, about how taking accountability in our professional lives can lead to some serious empowerment. With insights from his book, "Becoming Fearless," we explore how clarity, confidence, and control can transform our work journeys. So grab your headphones and get comfy, because we’re all about making those bold career moves and living for ourselves!
Ever felt like you're just floating through your career? Like, maybe you're stuck in a job that doesn’t light your fire, and every day feels like Groundhog Day? Well, our guest, Dr. Benjamin Ritter, dives into the nitty-gritty of taking back your career power and being fearless about making moves—big or small. We kick things off by chatting about the common dilemma many face: should I stick it out in this job or take the leap into the unknown? It’s a tough call, but sometimes, the act of deciding—whether it's quitting or asking for a new project—can be the key to unlocking your potential.
Dr. Ritter shares his journey from dealing with toxic leadership to becoming a certified career coach, emphasizing that the first step to a fulfilling career is clarity about what you want. He introduces us to the three Cs of self-leadership: clarity, confidence, and control. These aren't just buzzwords; they’re your roadmap to professional satisfaction. Clarity helps you understand where you want to go, confidence gives you the guts to chase it, and control reminds you that you're in the driver's seat of your career. It’s all about taking ownership and crafting a career that works for you, not the other way around.
We also dig into the importance of feedback—because let’s face it, most of us have had our fair share of bad bosses who just don’t know how to deliver constructive criticism. Dr. Ritter points out that the feedback process shouldn't be a surprise; it should be a consistent dialogue. It’s a two-way street: leaders need to learn how to give feedback effectively, and employees need to be proactive in seeking it out. So, if you've ever left a performance review feeling blindsided, it might be time to have a heart-to-heart with your boss.
In the end, this episode is all about empowerment and taking charge—so grab a notepad and start jotting down how you're going to take your career from blah to brilliant!
Takeaways:
- Taking accountability for our career choices and not just going with the flow is crucial.
- Quitting a job might seem simple, but it’s actually a big decision that requires deep reflection.
- Being fearless in your career means actively crafting your own path rather than waiting for opportunities to arise.
- Self-leadership is all about the three Cs: clarity, confidence, and control, which empower us to take charge of our careers.
- Understanding your job satisfaction involves evaluating your work, relationships, and the meaning you derive from your career.
- Feedback is essential for growth, but many leaders and employees struggle with how to give and receive it effectively....
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Are we giving our power awayat our jobs or are we taking accountability
and responsibility and feelingempowered to be fearless towards
what we want? Something assimple as quitting a job? Something
as simple as going to yourboss and asking to work on a project.
I see you say quitting yourjob is simple. It's not simple. It's
a big decision and choice. Butso many people teeter back and forth
(00:27):
between, should I leave myjob, should I stay at my job? When
you're just preventing growthbecause you haven't made a decision.
Hi there and welcome to thestep Expert Voices for Leadership
Growth. I'm your host, KentKnievel. Every week I talk to experts
who focus on helping leadersstep up their leadership game. If
you're new to the show, thenon whatever platform you're using,
(00:48):
I encourage you to subscribeso you never miss an episode. One
last thing. As a leadershipdevelopment consultant and executive
coach, I have a particularinterest in support supporting recent
internally promoted leaders.If that's you, or if you support
a leader who has been recentlypromoted, I encourage you to visit
my website at Kent CoachPlaybook and download a free copy
of my 90 day blueprint filledwith practical advice for you or
(01:11):
the leader you support inhitting the ground running and truly
stepping up to their newleadership level. Without further
ado, on with the show.Welcome, everybody. Today we are
talking about being fearlessabout your career. And with me for
this conversation today is Dr.Benjamin Ritter. He's a certified
leadership and career coachand author of the Amazon bestseller
(01:33):
Becoming Fearless. Ben, thanksfor coming on the podcast today.
Thank you so much for havingme. Absolutely.
How was that take two intro that?
Wonderful. I mean, I like takeone too. I any take that comes out
as we just make the most ofit. Right. As you probably know,
in the work that you're. Thatyou do, it's like there are no wrong
(01:53):
answers. There is. There'sonly the path that we're on and we're
essentially going to take uswhere we want to go. Nice.
Well, speaking about paths,I'd love to hear a bit more about
your career. So what, youknow, give us a bit of your. Your
career arc and, and how didyou eventually get to what you're
doing today?
Yeah, and so as you mentioned,I play in the field of executive
(02:15):
career and leader coaching aswell as talent development consulting.
And I'm doing what I dobecause I had some pretty poor, toxic
leadership and a verydifficult career path. And so I'm
one of the lucky ones thatgets to hopefully like change the
world so people don't have todeal with what I dealt with when
(02:36):
I was earlier on in my career.Some of those disappointments were
I wanted to be a professionalsoccer player and that failed like
most people that want tobecome professional athletes. Sadly
though, I was heavily andoverly and wrongfully obsessed with
the sport. And so when I lostsoccer, I had no idea who I was and
what direction I wanted to go,which can, you know, you dug a pretty
(02:57):
deep hole. But that led me tobe really interested in the field
of confidence and personaldevelopment, which led to professional
development. So it wasactually the spark to the path that
I'm on today. The nextindustry that I thought I'd go into,
nutrition, they canceled mymajor pretty much when I was done
with it. So I did not get thatdegree or go into that field. And
(03:18):
then I found I was passionateabout health policy. You see this
trend of health and personaldevelopment, which again, it's like
interesting how all thesethings come together. I had a job
working for the state and theylost funding and so canceled the
job. And that happened fourtimes over a two and a half year
period. So that was a littledisappointing and crushing. Eventually
(03:39):
networked my way intohealthcare where I was surrounded
by change and toxicleadership. So three acquisitions,
four different bosses, twodifferent CEOs, a lot of, a lot of
the bureaucratic, traditionalkind of mentality around leadership
itself. And so I was prettydefeated. And I didn't really think
that work was supposed towork. It was a heavily actively disengaged
(04:03):
employee. I don't know if youever look at those statistics or
those surveys where it's likeyou want to get rid of actively disengaged
employees. They are worse tohave in the organization than someone
that is just unhappy. Well, Iwas probably that employee costing
the organization more than Iwas bringing, but I still did great
work. And because of that, Iwas promoted into the senior leadership
team. I was basically theCEO's right hand and did a lot of
(04:25):
ad hoc positions for them. Butthat, that like despite being disengaged,
but like doing good work andbeing a high performer just underutilized.
They selected me for 16 monthsof leadership training and it was
the first time I learned thatthat industry even existed. And it
was the first time that I wasplaced with a leader that actually
created a really safeopportunity for me to explore and
(04:46):
reflect on what happened to mycareer and where I wanted to go.
And through that reflection, Isaw these like, milestone moments
of health, of wellness, ofpersonal, professional development,
of passion, of purpose. Thetype of leadership that I wanted
to have, organization that Iwanted to work in. And I had a pretty
much a, like a come into, youknow, relevation moment with the
(05:08):
combination of leadership, myactive disengagement and then like
walking to work one day. Iremember very specifically just doing
the same walk. Went into theoffice, looking around and everyone
just looked so unhappy. I waslike, oh, I'm doing this every day
(05:30):
of my life right now. Like,and I don't see a way that this is
going to change. And so how doI change it for myself? And I really
felt, I took ownership. I feltempowered and accountable to craft
my career. And with thatcareer audit and with the help of
the leadership coach, startedpaving the path towards talent development.
Leadership development. Wentback and got my doctorate in organizational
(05:51):
leadership, went to my boss,started crafting projects. So kind
of managed up job craftedwhich is a fun field of research.
And out of the doctoralprogram started working in learning.
So regional learning director,head of talent development, senior
talent management consultant.And really just built a brand in
this space. And lo and behold,you know, have, have had some pretty
(06:13):
big wins that I think arechanging the world and helping people
become fearless in their careers.
Nice. Where did the sort ofconcept of becoming fearless start
for you?
So the evolution of taglines,take back control of your life, take
back control of your careerwas initially and get unstuck from
(06:37):
your career. That evolved intoliving for yourself. So how do you
live for yourself in yourcareer and in your life? Which then
through working with myclients and realizing that really
what was at play was theirability to have clarity on who they
are and where they want to go,confidence in their skills as well
(06:58):
as themselves, self efficacyand self esteem and the ability to
take back control, to have totake control over what they can control.
So to push away outsideinfluences, pressures to put themselves
in an environment thatsupports them from an organization,
a relationship perspectivereally highlighted the three Cs of
(07:18):
self leadership. And when Irealized then kind of breaking it
down even further to say, oh,all those relate to being fearless
in your career. That started aweekly segment that I would just
promote. I would just postcontent about being fearless, which
then got so much feedback frommy audience that then I said, well,
I need to turn this intosomething that more people can access,
(07:41):
that can be evergreen, thatcan become the book. Because being
fearless honestly is, isprobably the number one, the number
one contributor to someonecreating a life and a career that
truly matters to them. Becauseeven if you don't know the direction
you're going, if you'refearless to go a direction, eventually
you're going to end up in aplace that is fulfilling and meaningful
(08:02):
and brings you joy and bringsvalue to yourself and to the world.
Nice. Well, so you mentionedand my ears perked up, so now I want
to. I want to hear a bit more.So you said the three Cs. Was it
self leadership?
Yep. Three Cs. The mostimportant leader in your life is
the one that lives inside you.And are you leading yourself in a
(08:22):
way that you wish your leaderwould lead you? So the three Cs of
self, leadership, clarity,confidence and control. Clarity,
knowing yourself and knowingthe direction you want to go, that
creates a sense like that initself inspires confidence. Just
to have some idea of clarityand accepting that you don't have
clarity can also createconfidence. And then the belief in
(08:44):
yourself says self confidenceis. Honestly, I don't. You can kind
of get rid of a lot of thestuff you're going to be stuck if
you just have confidence inyourself and no direction. But that
belief in yourself is socritical to just tasting life and
trying things out to then leadyou towards where you need to be
for your career, for yourself.But then we still need skills. And
(09:06):
it's like, you can beconfident, but if you don't have
the skills, you're not goingto make much progress and learning
skills. And I don't know ifyou notice this too with with clients,
someone comes to you andthey're like, I want to work on executive
presence. You're like, great,what have you done so far? And they're
like, I'm talking to you. Go,okay. But we live in a day and age
where I can listen to apodcast such as this. I can go buy
(09:27):
a book, I can go watch it goon YouTube. And now you can go to
LinkedIn learning. There's somany different sources. I can go
talk to a mentor that peopletend not to try to create the skills
which then also can createself belief and confidence to prove
that we can learn. And thencontrol, which is oftentimes we're
giving away our control to thepeople around us based on limiting
(09:47):
beliefs like, oh, I can'tspeak up in this meeting or this
person dismissed me, so I'mnot going to share my ideas. And
so where are we giving awayour control that we need to take
back and are we in anenvironment that helps us do that?
So oftentimes maybe we havefriends that are not on the same
level that we want to be or weare Putting ourselves in situations
that are draining or negative.We're intaking news that brings us
(10:12):
down or we're spending toomuch time on socials. So then control
like are we actually feedingthe goals that we have? Are we feeding
the brand that we want tocreate for ourselves? Are we feeding
our confidence and our skills?
Yeah, I love that. I thinkwhat I'm connecting to here is kind
of getting, getting to thewhat you want and why you want it.
(10:34):
Right.
What is the goal here and youknow, what, what does it mean to
you? Right. So I find myselfgetting into this more and more with
coaching clients too, which isso I think like just to go with your
example of like, I want towork on executive presence. What
for? You know, what, what,what's the reason you want to work
on that? Like what does thatmean to you? What would better executive
(10:58):
presence look like and whatwould that unlock for you?
Right.
And I feel like I'm just usingthat as one example of just like
peeling back a bit more to getunderneath. What is the motivation?
Are you actually motivated towork on this? More often than not,
my word of the day isintentionality, right. Being intentional.
(11:22):
But I think a lot of us justare in, you know, can. And it happens
to me. I'm sure it happens toyou. Right. You fall into a rinse,
repeat life often.
Right.
Just going to do the samething today that I did yesterday.
I'm going to show up at workand check the same boxes. And I find
even with coaching often whatI'm doing is having people pause,
(11:43):
step back, step out of thatand have we even examined what it
is.
You want and why we go fromthis is where I am to this is how
I'm going to solve it. Theseare the actions going to take and
like hold on, yeah, hold on asecond. That's why things don't work.
It's you're. And that's whyit's difficult for someone to read
(12:07):
a book and then make a change.And why coaching is so powerful because
we personalize the approachand we also fully help someone understand,
you know, what are the corereasons why they want to achieve
something, what it means tothem personally. Because then you
can also figure out what arethe things that are actually preventing
that from happeningpersonally. So limiting beliefs,
(12:28):
environment, etc. But yeah,under the, the why we know it's important.
There's, I think, I thinkwe've, we've played that, we've played
that now that story prettyregularly with like the Simon Sinek,
you know, and the importanceof why or the why and purpose and
passion. But it can sometimesfeel a little touchy feely. I remember
(12:51):
when I was leading a workshopon managing to motivate and the model
really focused on the initialpillar of trust and someone raised
their hand, senior executivegovernment. They're like, seems a
little touchy feely to me.Then I go, good, wonderful, great.
(13:12):
Let's talk about that. Let'stalk about why emotions play a role
in productivity and engagementand job satisfaction and we can't
overlook them. Now. I do thinkwe have a little bit of an issue
generationally with holdingpeople accountable and saying like,
this is what you have toachieve now. Let's build an environment
that supports you to achievethat. We still have to hold you accountable
(13:37):
despite emotions. But yeah, Idon't think we dive into enough on
why someone shows up to workand if we expect to lead them, we
need to know that information.
As much of a, you know, lefthand turn as this might be. My, my
ears perked up. So what, whatis the challenge that you're seeing
in terms of generationallywhen it comes to holding people accountable?
(14:03):
And I, I'm so torn. I'd loveto hear your perspective too. If
it's a generational issue orif it's a leadership, if it's a leadership
issue. Because if people aregoing into work and the leaders are
not defining roles andresponsibilities, providing direct
feedback and holding theiremployees accountable to that information,
(14:24):
then they can get away withwhatever they want and then they
learn different copingmechanism, coping mechanisms. Because
that, that is what works, thathelps them, helps them succeed in
their career. But if we haveleaders that just say no, you don't
do this, this job and youdon't have a job, then we would create
an understanding and a mindsettowards what's expected from work
(14:45):
and now. So people, I'veheard, maybe you've heard too, it's
like, oh, younger generationcan't take feedback to the point
where there are employees thatknow they're going to get negative
feedback from their manager ina one on one and they quit. They
literally go on leave andquit. They take their pto. I've heard
this before. And so that'smaybe that's the thing. But then
(15:06):
again, if you have a leaderand manager providing direct feedback
regularly and knowing how togive feedback and holding their employees
accountable, is that somethingthat's sustainable for somebody?
Because they still have to putfood on the table?
Right, right.
Well, it's interesting becauseI wonder, you said at the top of
the recording Right. That youhad all this experience with toxic
environments or poor leaders.And so, and maybe I'm taking a leap
(15:30):
and putting words in yourmouth, but sort of this, like, how
do I do different? Be betteror create, you know, better than
what I experienced.
Right.
And the leap, or not, not abig leap that I'm going to make is
like parenting too.
Right.
It's like I'm going to be, youknow, whatever. X better than what
I, you know, the, theparenting I received. And I say that
(15:53):
to kind of circle back to the,the idea of generations here, because
I've heard that.
Right.
I've heard that, you know,the, the youngest generation in the
workforce not really beingable to take feedback. But I, I wonder
if part of it is we've neverbeen great at giving feedback. There's
a hardening of expect or like,there's been an increasing softening
(16:16):
of expectation in terms of.
Right.
Older generations. I'm a exmillennial Cusp Myself. So, you know,
they change the. Every now andthen, they change the years on me
and I'm suddenly an X or I'm a mille.
Right.
And so you would say, youknow, there's a, you know, maybe
the Gen X has like a thickerskin and fewer expectations about
(16:37):
being treated well.
Right.
Versus, you know, the youngergeneration having maybe, maybe thinner
skin and expecting to betreated like a human. And I feel
like we've been teaching thisin the leadership development space
for a long time. This, likethe mentality of leave you, leave
your personal life at thedoor. You know, leave the emotions
(16:57):
at the door. This is business,it's not personal. You know, I feel
like we've been coachingpeople around. That's not how influence
works. You know, for at leastthe 20 years or so, I've been doing
this kind of work. I'm gettingkind of long winded here to say I've
even had this evolution of,like, I just think we've never been
good at feedback and we nowhave a generation that's expecting
(17:20):
better, expecting better,period, let alone expecting better
feedback. And even when I'mteaching feedback today, a lot of
what I teach today is you haveto start with why you care enough
to give the feedback. And thatneeds to be a part of the conversation.
Right?
Like, I heard this. I believein, you know, I believe in you or
(17:41):
I care about, you know, howothers are perceiving you or your
performance. And so I want togive you this feedback and support.
Right.
In helping you learn to dothis differently or behave differently,
whatever that you know, very,very broad example is here. I don't
know, I'm kind of rambling.What are your thoughts and reactions
(18:02):
to everything that just spewedout my mouth?
If I could maybe have my idealworld of work, I would have everybody
from a very early, early agebe with a leader. That is terrible.
Giving feedback and maybe alittle rude and direct and tough
(18:25):
because I think losing for meat a young age helped me be okay.
Losing and having toxicleaders helped me realize that it's
not personal. Now it can gotwo ways. You can actually end up
internalizing the feedback ina negative manner, that it influences
you throughout your career, oryou can maybe create some thick skin
(18:47):
and understand that thatfeedback doesn't define who you are
until you learn how to takeit. Yeah, I, I don't know if the,
the workforce is used to beinga little bit more self reliant and
sourcing their fulfillment andsatisfaction and drive from themselves
(19:09):
and are now instead lookingfor that positive recognition from
their current environment,which is a dangerous place to be
because self leadership is.I'm going to go towards this goal
no matter what happens aroundme. And despite being good or bad
at feedback, I think we'reseeing leaders unsure because they're
afraid of the reaction fromtheir workforce when in actuality
(19:32):
it should be as you weresharing. Hey, I care about your success
and development and I careabout the organization. You have
some expectations that youneed to hit. I might not say this
right, like I'm probably notgoing to. It's not meant to offend
you. It's meant to help youget better and keep your job or grow
in your job. I don't, I justdon't know if that conversation is
happening because when I was,I've actually had, I've worked a
(19:53):
lot of odd jobs because, youknow, trying to find the same. By
the way, same thing forfinding, finding a job and finding
career. I do a lot of talksaround career development and job
search and people are cominginto the room and they're saying,
this is the first time I'veever had to look for a job. Jobs
have fallen into my lap.They've been referred. I've, I've
been promoted. This is thefirst. I've been looking for a job
for two months. My world'sgonna end. I go, I've had two different
(20:16):
job searches go over twoyears. So I know that I can get a
job. I know that job searchescan take a long time. Same thing
with building a business. Oh,I, to get revenue. It's gonna Take
a year at certain, in certaininstances, at certain times, maybe
more so that that adversity,that resilience, I think is important
because it comes from thestruggle, it comes from those poor
(20:37):
and bad experiences. I thinkwe might be missing that a little
bit.
I can see that.
Right.
I think so that there's maybea question built in there too of
is the expectation, you know,maybe you're asking this, maybe you're
not, but is the expectationtoo high for those who are just joining
the workforce? Is there a thinskin? Right, so, but I think you're
(20:59):
right, you know,recommendation of like, you might
need to have a few managersbefore you decide what is terrible
feedback and what's not. But Istill think, you know, and I don't
think you're disagreeing withthis, but I still think that like
leaders are, you know, as agross generalization, terrible at
giving feedback. You know, Iremember being early, you know, early
(21:23):
in my, like going from theconsultancy to going internal. I
had this initial feeling likeI should strip the feedback module
out of this pre designed, youknow, three day workshop right in
my, you know, am I, I've gotpeople here who have been leading
(21:43):
restaurants for years. Likethey've got hundreds of people in
their restaurant if they don'tknow how to give. Like at the time
I think my own thinking was,am I being rude by assuming they
don't know how to givefeedback already? And it probably
took me five years from thatpoint, like going from that company
(22:04):
into another company toactually just come to the realization
of like, no, everybody's justkind of terrible at giving feedback.
It's actually rarer, rarer tohave a manager who is excellent at
giving feedback. And I've hada mixture of those experiences, right?
I've had some managers whowere great at giving feedback and
some managers who wereabsolutely awful at it. But I think,
(22:28):
you know, I finally, I kind ofcame to that realization that like,
no, everybody's pretty muchterrible at it and there's probably
a lot of room to grow at everycompany when it comes to the quality
and skill of providingfeedback. Welcome to the feedback
show, by the way.
No, I, it's, it's funny youbring this up because when I'm asked
(22:52):
for fun, you're like having aconnection conversation. Like if
you had to start all over,over tomorrow, Ben dropped in the
middle in this world withnothing that you've done and you
have to, you have to just kindof build from scratch. My answer
was actually, oh, I'd be a,I'd be a feedback trainer. I'd be
a feedback coach. I would sellone thing, it would be giving feedback.
It would mimic the SBIC modeland it would talk about how to give,
(23:15):
how to be non personal, actionoriented, growth oriented feedback.
Because people are terrible atit, organizations need it, employees
leave because of the lack ofit or because it's done in the wrong
way. And I think companieswould pay for it. So to that point,
welcome to the feedback show.Still everybody, but really bringing
(23:36):
this back to this fearlessidea. You know, when if we want to
be fearless in our careers, wehave to learn to be bigger and more
important than the situationsaround us. Meaning that if you get
feedback that isn't doesn'tmake you happy, tough. Your job is
to serve your manager and yourorganization. So what are you going
(23:59):
to do that serves you the mostin this situation? Be disengaged,
grovel, be dejected, look foranother job. Okay, does that serve
you the most? If it does,great, go for it, do it. But generally
it doesn't serve you the most.It does. Generally what serves you
the most is. Thank you forthat feedback. Let's put a plan together
to show my progress in thisdirection. I really want to continue
(24:22):
growing in this company. Soagain, thank you very much. And then
bringing it up, every one onone and I was reflecting on your
feedback. I done this and thisand this. Do you feel that we're
on track and managing uptowards it and too often people get
disengaged during theperformance management process or
(24:42):
when they get feedback andthey dig themselves a deeper hole
and it doesn't serve their career.
Yeah, yeah. We could open up awhole can of worms there around performance
management and whether or notleaders are truly honest and objective
and consistent with, you know,with rating performance too. Because
(25:06):
I find that's where the shockin performance management comes.
Conversations comes to, youknow, when you're not getting feedback
regularly and it's like soonce a year you're going to tell
me what you could have beentelling me all year long.
Right.
To have done better. But Idigress because I want to come back
to some of the concepts aroundbeing fearless. So you know, as you're
(25:32):
talking to audiences aboutbeing fearless, like I guess I'd
be curious a what's thestarting point? Where are people
coming to you? And then thisis the conversation that you're having
with them and you know, fromthere where. Let me, let me just
stop there before I doublebarrel the question.
(25:54):
I'm gonna grab a copy of thebook Just to give a little bit of
kind of clarity in terms ofwhen we talk about the professional
life, what categories are wetalking about fearless in? So you
have job satisfaction, whichis, do I feel engaged and filled
in my work? You haveleadership presence. So are you showing
up in a way where people wantto follow you and that's going to
help you grow within yourcareer and that leads into career
(26:17):
growth, which is like, what doyou want? How are you building a
brand to get there outside ofyour organization? So kind of this
in or creating someindependence in terms of what you're
working towards? Too manypeople define themselves by their
organization. And so peopletend to come to me for either of
those areas. I don't know whatI want. I'm afraid to go after what
I want. I'm burnt out fromdoing what I thought I wanted. So
(26:39):
what is that, like, sense ofself within your career and within
your job, which lends thesefulfillment and satisfaction? And
then it's, what do peoplethink of you at work? And are you
showing up as the executivethat maybe you need to. So are you
giving feedback, coaching,delegation, sharing ideas, strategic,
innovative, etc. Which allleads to our brand within a company
(26:59):
and our success? And thenreally like, are you, are you more
than your job? Are you morethan your company? And how are you
continuing to serve yourbroader career, not just your job
and people? So people haveareas in all those categories.
Yeah, yeah. So it rings to me of.
(27:20):
Right.
Which I think, you know, I'mjust slow on the uptake here, is
Right. This is about, youknow, a life partially. Right. About
a life well lived.
Right.
And living from a place ofsort of the ongoing seeking of, you
know, happiness or satisfaction.
Right.
And being able to kind ofexplore, all right, well, I don't
(27:42):
feel good. And why and whereis it in my life that I'm in or not
in alignment with, you know,what matters to me? Am I. Am I finally
picking up on, picking up onthe theme here, living for.
Yourself, hence the name ofthe broader company. Are we giving
(28:03):
our power away at our jobs orare we taking accountability, responsibility,
and feeling empowered to befearless towards what we want? Something
as simple as, you know,quitting a job. Something as simple
as going to your boss andasking to work on a project. I see
you say quitting your job issimple, but it's not simple. It's.
It's a big decision andchoice. But so many people teeter
(28:26):
back and forth between, shouldI leave my job, should I stay at
my job? When you're you'rejust preventing growth because you
haven't made a decision. Itcan be something as simple as raising
your hand in a meeting andsharing an idea or setting up a skip
level meeting. So meeting withyour manager's manager, it could
be applying for that internalpromotion or it could even be going
(28:48):
to your boss and asking forwhat's expected of you to be able
to achieve a certain rating ona performance management process.
I don't know, you probablyheard this and I've even done this
where you go into your reviewand you think you're going to get
promoted, but you haven't everhad a conversation, what were the
metrics and goals andexpectations to get promoted six
months before? And so then youend up being pretty disengaged for
(29:12):
three to six months or end upgoing and finding another position
because of that one singleexperience which basically you had
responsibility over. So then,yeah, how do you pave a career and
a job to serve you? So it canbe, it can be your actual work. So
these are the components ofjob satisfaction. Could be your actual
work, the work that you do. Itcould be work that you think you're
going to get to do. So howyou're going to learn, what challenges
(29:35):
you're going to face, it couldbe your social relationships. So
who you engage with andinteract with on a, on a daily, weekly,
monthly basis. And then it canbe the meaning that you perceive.
So it's perceptions affirmyour work, the impact that you think
that you're actually having.And you get to play with all those.
You get to play with yourwork, your social relationships,
(29:55):
your environment and themeaning behind your work.
Yeah. Yeah, I like it. So onething I'm. Because I think I've been
thinking about this more overthe last year since I started consulting
sort of on my own, which is.And even when I've done career coaching
with others, right. The firstthing, one of the first conversations
(30:19):
I try to have with people islike, well, let's talk about what
you want to do, right? Andthen usually the first thing someone
says is like, well, I want tobe the head of marketing. And I'm
like, that's not what I asked.Like, let's take a step back. Like,
what do you want to do? Whatdo you want each. You know, what
are the things you like doingevery day? You know, what do you
want your days to look like?What are some of the, you know? And
(30:43):
like, how do you break apartthose component pieces to say, cool.
Now if we put all of thattogether, Is that ahead of marketing
or it might that be, you know,something else. Right. And so I would
say for. For me, you know,stepping back into consulting was,
you know, how do I tip thebalance more towards doing what I
(31:05):
love to do day in and day outversus sort of fighting to be able
to spend even 5 to 10% of mytime doing the kind of things that
I love?
Right.
There's obviously somefinancial level component to some
of this too.
Right.
(31:25):
It's like, well, I mean, Iwant to just watch soap operas all
day. Like, that's not reallygonna satisfy or not sustain the
life that maybe you want. Butpart of it too then is also coaching
people around. Well, that'sonly, you know, 40 plus, depending
(31:46):
on how much you work.
Right.
40 plus hours of your week.There's still all this other time
and weekends. Right. Like,where are you finding fulfillment
too?
Right.
So I find, like, sometimeswhen I'm doing career coaching, I'm
also dipping into what are thethings that are draining your bucket
and what are the things thatare filling your bucket? And maybe
some of those things areoutside of work too. And are you
(32:09):
being as intentional as youcould about maximizing, you know,
your. Your all seven days ofthe week, you know, and all waking
hours of the week, you know,on top of that?
Yeah. Your whole life? Yeah. Iwould be walking down the street
and seeing someone shovelsnow. Yeah. Like, we have very different
work experiences, but somehowyou find enjoyment and fulfillment
(32:35):
from that experience, justlike I do and shoveling snow. By
the way, I grew up in Chicagodespite being in Austin right now.
So there was a lot of snowthere. And. And yes, their work job
satisfaction is not solelybased on. Or life satisfaction. It's
not solely based on what youdo from an actual work perspective.
There's a lot of othercomponents from work itself, but
(32:56):
also where you spend your dayand what you're working for, what
that money goes to and howyou're living your life. There's
a lot of other components. Wetend to sometimes overemphasize the
work itself, but that's alsowhy, going back to why leaders need
to know what the why is thatsomeone's showing up to work for
in what someone's doing afterwork. And I know it's just like this
(33:18):
little touchy because there'sthat separation of work and life,
but knowing what someone'shome experience, which is the other,
generally a larger portion ofthem than work, helps you lead them,
helps you craft your approachtowards them to connect with them,
to build incentives towards Them.
(33:39):
Have you, have you found this?I think coming out of the pandemic,
I think there was a biggerpush for thinking beyond like thinking
about the life well livedbeyond just my work.
Right.
And my work and my title. So Ifeel like there was a bit of a societal
(34:00):
push in that direction. AndI'm wondering a, you know, were you
feeling that to B, is thatpendulum starting to like swing back
the farther we get from, youknow, being locked in our homes for
months on end?
Well, as much as I wish I kneweverything from a sociological perspective,
(34:22):
like when it comes to Covidthough they're just high level notes
are we lost lots of things. Wewere afraid for our health. People
close to us lost their lives.Many people include lost their jobs.
And it was the first time thata lot of people realized that the
(34:44):
things that they thought wereguaranteed were not. And so that
lent itself now toappreciating the self more I think
than the job. And then withincreased freedom from, oh look,
we can work from home. Why amI doing this two hour commute? Why
(35:06):
am I going into this office topeople that I don't really care about
to a company that can justfire me if they decide to. I think
that all came together into alovely little melting pot to help
people realize that maybe theyshould have three jobs, they shouldn't
tell their employer. But atthe same time then it's like employers
are realizing that they're,they've gained a lot of power back
(35:28):
and that the person that, thatthat holds the power is the person
that writes the check andthey're making demands again and
people have the choice to workat those organizations or not. You
see a lot of return to officepolicies falling into place and people,
some people leaving and somepeople staying. And I think work
(35:51):
at the careers generally isalways this power dynamic and people
are just becoming more awareof it now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Interesting. I just was thinking
about that.
Right.
And I think, I think even justthinking about like this, the return
to work push that's happening,you're seeing that in Austin a bit
as well.
Yeah, it's, it's everywhere. Ithink we're back. The last statistic
(36:14):
I saw is we're back to preCovid rates of job postings that
are remote. So it's about, Ithink it's 20 to 30% of the workforce.
But then again that tends toequate to the number of people that
want to work fully remote.We're seeing a lot more of a hybrid
model. But then that justLimits who can work for what position
(36:35):
because generally either haveto relocate or be. Be there be. A
lot of companies are moving tothree days in the three days or five
days in the office.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which. Well, all this to sayby the way is that you as a worker
hopefully just brings a littlebit of an awareness to the fact that
(36:55):
you have decisions to make andyou don't have to abide by the decisions
of an organization if youwant. Like I was talking to someone
the other day and they'relike, well, my job search is going
to be, is going to be really,it's going to, they're just, they.
We come up with these selflimiting beliefs around location
and salary and style ofleadership when we don't have enough
(37:17):
information to make thosedecisions. And so part of our job
as a, as a job seeker is to goget the information that we need
and not limit ourselves by ourbeliefs, but more so by actual evidence
that we can find. And Ipromise you, if you found something
to show you one thing, you canfind the exact opposite. Showing
you another thing and samething as leadership. It's just try
(37:38):
not to limit yourself based onyour preconceived notions of what
something needs to be orshould be or how someone is supposed
to perform and instead go, golive, go act, go learn, because eventually
you can. And go build becauseif the thing that you want isn't
there yet, you can go createit. Just basically let go of some
personal limits in regards towhat you think is possible and instead
(38:00):
hold true to what you want andgo make it happen.
Yeah, yeah. And I think, Ithink it's such a weird employment
market at the moment too whereit's like, and I don't know what
the, what the average tenureright now at organizations is, I
want to say for likeexperienced professionals, it's probably
like three to five years,right? So I think part of it too
(38:22):
might be having a healthy, youknow, perspective that, well, I might
only be at this place forthree to five years, which really
in the grand scheme of thingsis not that long. And the interview
process is, is so weirdanyway, right? Like everybody's trying
to put on a best face and youdon't necessarily really get a full
(38:45):
understanding of what you'rereally signing up for until you've.
And that goes both ways,right? That goes for the hiring,
you know, the hiring side andthe, you know, new employee side.
Neither of you really knowwhat you're signing up for till you're
in it.
Right.
And probably even then for 612months. So maybe part of it too is.
(39:06):
And I feel like I seeemployers are less concerned about
job hopping.
Right.
Quote unquote, as they oncewere. So part of it too might be
giving yourself permission to.I'm gonna just go. It might not like
unless something's really notfeeling right. It's like I'm not
going to be fully sure ofeverything until I've been on the
(39:27):
ground long enough toexperience it and giving myself some
grace that maybe I'll leavequicker than I thought. Very few
people stay at companies thesedays, 20 plus years, right? Yeah.
I feel like we could keep kindof rapping about all kinds of subjects,
(39:48):
but I want to start to bringus in for our landing. So I ask every
guest to prepare a few piecesof advice for the advice column,
so to speak. So the first iswhat's your advice for directly for
leaders out there?
Reset your expectations forwhat you're responsible for. You
(40:09):
control the environment thatsomeone works in, so you are responsible
for setting the direction. Soclarifying roles and responsibilities,
ensuring that they have theresources to be successful for entering
the environment is productiveand positive and oriented towards
those goals. But you're notdirectly responsible for their work
(40:31):
product. And so being aware ofthat, that can hopefully inspire
delegation, inspire coachingand help you maybe take a step back
and be a little bit morestrategic and how you build an environment
around each of your employees.
Nice. Yeah, I would say I beenin a number of coaching conversations
recently where, you know, beentalking about like, how do you continue
(40:51):
to separate yourself from thehow of everybody else, everybody
else's how, and you know, setthat stage. I like that.
And that's a sense offearlessness because too many leaders
are trying to have a grapple,hold on how something is done and
you can really limitinnovation and you end up, your altitude
(41:12):
is so low then. And so as anexecutive and as a leader, you have
to just kind of raise that sight.
Yeah. Leaders are regularlylamenting not, and I've seen this
at every level inorganizations, organizations sort
of regularly lamenting nothaving enough time for strategic
endeavors.
Right.
And it's when you startunpacking the choices that they're
making on how they're spendingtheir time. You know, nine times
(41:33):
out of ten, it comes down toexactly that.
Right.
You're kind of diving down toolow. So what's your advice for those
who support leaders?
Well, take some accountabilitytowards the career and job that you
want. So again, you're job isto serve them. Your first job is
to help your Manager look goodand help them achieve their goals.
(41:56):
Sometimes don't like hearingthat. But at the same time to do
that you need information fromthem. And too many employees that
I know that have leaders don'tmanage up appropriately. Now if we're
going to go the otherdirection and go leaders of leaders,
then one of the things, I wasactually working with the CEO once
(42:17):
and we're rolling out thiswhole huge like weekly one on one
process with templates,training. It's the first time they're
going to have it. It's bestpractice. And I pause, I go, hey,
do you have one on ones withyour senior leadership team? You
know that's not how we talkall the time. We don't need them.
I go, well, I've talked to theentire senior leadership team one
on one and they don't feelsupported and they don't feel they
(42:39):
have your time and they don'tfeel like they get feedback from
you. You know where that comesfrom? A one on one. So too many leaders
skip one on ones for theirleaders because they think that they're
too professional or tooexperienced to need them. And I think
we're missing out.
Yep. I've never heard anemployee who doesn't have regular
one on ones with their leadersound happy with that. It's always
(43:04):
my leader doesn't even have aone on one with me. So yeah, I like
that advice. So how can peopleget a hold of you? How can. Where
can they find your book? Tellus a little bit more about. Yeah,
the what, how, why of gettinga little bit more Dr. Benjamin Ritter
in their lives.
So check out live fouryourselfconsulting dot com. It's where everything
lives. Website content,podcasts, book, all this stuff live
(43:28):
for yourself. Consulting.com.you just want the book Becoming Fearless
by Dr. Benjamin Ritter. It'son Amazon, it's on Audible Spot.
I do highly recommend thepaperback. It's. It's might even
be in your local library.There's a big library push initially
so you can request it theretoo if you don't want to purchase
it. But overall, if you enjoyit, tell a friend, leave a review.
And the social platform thatI'm active on is LinkedIn. So look
(43:51):
up Dr. Benjamin Ritter. Feelfree to connect, let me know that
you heard me on the Step uppodcast and maybe there'll be a little
freebie in it for you.
Nice. All right, well I'llmake sure I link to all that in the
show notes and the post that Iwill eventually make on LinkedIn
for the release of thisepisode. Ben, I'm so glad to have
had the opportunity to talk toyou today. I appreciate you coming
on.
(44:11):
Yeah, I appreciate you havingme. It was a fun little chat on fearlessness
and hopefully we've helpedsomeone take a little action in their
career and in their life.
Nice. Awesome. Thank you. Thatbrings us to the end of our episode.
Thanks for listening. I'dencourage you to head on over over
to my website, Kent Coach, andstart a conversation with me there.
Or check out my promotionplaybook at Kent Coach Playbook.
(44:33):
Before you go on with yourday, I ask that you please take a
moment to leave a rating and areview wherever you listen to podcasts.
Five stars. That helps putthis podcast in front of more eyes
and ears. Until next time,Take it easy.
Are we giving our power awayat our jobs or are we taking accountability
and responsibility and feelingempowered to be fearless towards
what we want? Something assimple as quitting a job? Something
as simple as going to yourboss and asking to work on a project.
I see you say quitting yourjob is simple. It's not simple. It's
a big decision and choice. Butso many people teeter back and forth
(00:27):
between, should I leave myjob, should I stay at my job? When
you're just preventing growthbecause you haven't made a decision.
Hi there and welcome to thestep Expert Voices for Leadership
Growth. I'm your host, KentKnievel. Every week I talk to experts
who focus on helping leadersstep up their leadership game. If
you're new to the show, thenon whatever platform you're using,
(00:48):
I encourage you to subscribeso you never miss an episode. One
last thing. As a leadershipdevelopment consultant and executive
coach, I have a particularinterest in support supporting recent
internally promoted leaders.If that's you, or if you support
a leader who has been recentlypromoted, I encourage you to visit
my website at Kent CoachPlaybook and download a free copy
of my 90 day blueprint filledwith practical advice for you or
(01:11):
the leader you support inhitting the ground running and truly
stepping up to their newleadership level. Without further
ado, on with the show.Welcome, everybody. Today we are
talking about being fearlessabout your career. And with me for
this conversation today is Dr.Benjamin Ritter. He's a certified
leadership and career coachand author of the Amazon bestseller
(01:33):
Becoming Fearless. Ben, thanksfor coming on the podcast today.
Thank you so much for havingme. Absolutely.
How was that take two intro that?
Wonderful. I mean, I like takeone too. I any take that comes out
as we just make the most ofit. Right. As you probably know,
in the work that you're. Thatyou do, it's like there are no wrong
(01:53):
answers. There is. There'sonly the path that we're on and we're
essentially going to take uswhere we want to go. Nice.
Well, speaking about paths,I'd love to hear a bit more about
your career. So what, youknow, give us a bit of your. Your
career arc and, and how didyou eventually get to what you're
doing today?
Yeah, and so as you mentioned,I play in the field of executive
(02:15):
career and leader coaching aswell as talent development consulting.
And I'm doing what I dobecause I had some pretty poor, toxic
leadership and a verydifficult career path. And so I'm
one of the lucky ones thatgets to hopefully like change the
world so people don't have todeal with what I dealt with when
(02:36):
I was earlier on in my career.Some of those disappointments were
I wanted to be a professionalsoccer player and that failed like
most people that want tobecome professional athletes. Sadly
though, I was heavily andoverly and wrongfully obsessed with
the sport. And so when I lostsoccer, I had no idea who I was and
what direction I wanted to go,which can, you know, you dug a pretty
(02:57):
deep hole. But that led me tobe really interested in the field
of confidence and personaldevelopment, which led to professional
development. So it wasactually the spark to the path that
I'm on today. The nextindustry that I thought I'd go into,
nutrition, they canceled mymajor pretty much when I was done
with it. So I did not get thatdegree or go into that field. And
(03:18):
then I found I was passionateabout health policy. You see this
trend of health and personaldevelopment, which again, it's like
interesting how all thesethings come together. I had a job
working for the state and theylost funding and so canceled the
job. And that happened fourtimes over a two and a half year
period. So that was a littledisappointing and crushing. Eventually
(03:39):
networked my way intohealthcare where I was surrounded
by change and toxicleadership. So three acquisitions,
four different bosses, twodifferent CEOs, a lot of, a lot of
the bureaucratic, traditionalkind of mentality around leadership
itself. And so I was prettydefeated. And I didn't really think
that work was supposed towork. It was a heavily actively disengaged
(04:03):
employee. I don't know if youever look at those statistics or
those surveys where it's likeyou want to get rid of actively disengaged
employees. They are worse tohave in the organization than someone
that is just unhappy. Well, Iwas probably that employee costing
the organization more than Iwas bringing, but I still did great
work. And because of that, Iwas promoted into the senior leadership
team. I was basically theCEO's right hand and did a lot of
(04:25):
ad hoc positions for them. Butthat, that like despite being disengaged,
but like doing good work andbeing a high performer just underutilized.
They selected me for 16 monthsof leadership training and it was
the first time I learned thatthat industry even existed. And it
was the first time that I wasplaced with a leader that actually
created a really safeopportunity for me to explore and
(04:46):
reflect on what happened to mycareer and where I wanted to go.
And through that reflection, Isaw these like, milestone moments
of health, of wellness, ofpersonal, professional development,
of passion, of purpose. Thetype of leadership that I wanted
to have, organization that Iwanted to work in. And I had a pretty
much a, like a come into, youknow, relevation moment with the
(05:08):
combination of leadership, myactive disengagement and then like
walking to work one day. Iremember very specifically just doing
the same walk. Went into theoffice, looking around and everyone
just looked so unhappy. I waslike, oh, I'm doing this every day
(05:30):
of my life right now. Like,and I don't see a way that this is
going to change. And so how doI change it for myself? And I really
felt, I took ownership. I feltempowered and accountable to craft
my career. And with thatcareer audit and with the help of
the leadership coach, startedpaving the path towards talent development.
Leadership development. Wentback and got my doctorate in organizational
(05:51):
leadership, went to my boss,started crafting projects. So kind
of managed up job craftedwhich is a fun field of research.
And out of the doctoralprogram started working in learning.
So regional learning director,head of talent development, senior
talent management consultant.And really just built a brand in
this space. And lo and behold,you know, have, have had some pretty
(06:13):
big wins that I think arechanging the world and helping people
become fearless in their careers.
Nice. Where did the sort ofconcept of becoming fearless start
for you?
So the evolution of taglines,take back control of your life, take
back control of your careerwas initially and get unstuck from
(06:37):
your career. That evolved intoliving for yourself. So how do you
live for yourself in yourcareer and in your life? Which then
through working with myclients and realizing that really
what was at play was theirability to have clarity on who they
are and where they want to go,confidence in their skills as well
(06:58):
as themselves, self efficacyand self esteem and the ability to
take back control, to have totake control over what they can control.
So to push away outsideinfluences, pressures to put themselves
in an environment thatsupports them from an organization,
a relationship perspectivereally highlighted the three Cs of
(07:18):
self leadership. And when Irealized then kind of breaking it
down even further to say, oh,all those relate to being fearless
in your career. That started aweekly segment that I would just
promote. I would just postcontent about being fearless, which
then got so much feedback frommy audience that then I said, well,
I need to turn this intosomething that more people can access,
(07:41):
that can be evergreen, thatcan become the book. Because being
fearless honestly is, isprobably the number one, the number
one contributor to someonecreating a life and a career that
truly matters to them. Becauseeven if you don't know the direction
you're going, if you'refearless to go a direction, eventually
you're going to end up in aplace that is fulfilling and meaningful
(08:02):
and brings you joy and bringsvalue to yourself and to the world.
Nice. Well, so you mentionedand my ears perked up, so now I want
to. I want to hear a bit more.So you said the three Cs. Was it
self leadership?
Yep. Three Cs. The mostimportant leader in your life is
the one that lives inside you.And are you leading yourself in a
(08:22):
way that you wish your leaderwould lead you? So the three Cs of
self, leadership, clarity,confidence and control. Clarity,
knowing yourself and knowingthe direction you want to go, that
creates a sense like that initself inspires confidence. Just
to have some idea of clarityand accepting that you don't have
clarity can also createconfidence. And then the belief in
(08:44):
yourself says self confidenceis. Honestly, I don't. You can kind
of get rid of a lot of thestuff you're going to be stuck if
you just have confidence inyourself and no direction. But that
belief in yourself is socritical to just tasting life and
trying things out to then leadyou towards where you need to be
for your career, for yourself.But then we still need skills. And
(09:06):
it's like, you can beconfident, but if you don't have
the skills, you're not goingto make much progress and learning
skills. And I don't know ifyou notice this too with with clients,
someone comes to you andthey're like, I want to work on executive
presence. You're like, great,what have you done so far? And they're
like, I'm talking to you. Go,okay. But we live in a day and age
where I can listen to apodcast such as this. I can go buy
(09:27):
a book, I can go watch it goon YouTube. And now you can go to
LinkedIn learning. There's somany different sources. I can go
talk to a mentor that peopletend not to try to create the skills
which then also can createself belief and confidence to prove
that we can learn. And thencontrol, which is oftentimes we're
giving away our control to thepeople around us based on limiting
(09:47):
beliefs like, oh, I can'tspeak up in this meeting or this
person dismissed me, so I'mnot going to share my ideas. And
so where are we giving awayour control that we need to take
back and are we in anenvironment that helps us do that?
So oftentimes maybe we havefriends that are not on the same
level that we want to be or weare Putting ourselves in situations
that are draining or negative.We're intaking news that brings us
(10:12):
down or we're spending toomuch time on socials. So then control
like are we actually feedingthe goals that we have? Are we feeding
the brand that we want tocreate for ourselves? Are we feeding
our confidence and our skills?
Yeah, I love that. I thinkwhat I'm connecting to here is kind
of getting, getting to thewhat you want and why you want it.
(10:34):
Right.
What is the goal here and youknow, what, what does it mean to
you? Right. So I find myselfgetting into this more and more with
coaching clients too, which isso I think like just to go with your
example of like, I want towork on executive presence. What
for? You know, what, what,what's the reason you want to work
on that? Like what does thatmean to you? What would better executive
(10:58):
presence look like and whatwould that unlock for you?
Right.
And I feel like I'm just usingthat as one example of just like
peeling back a bit more to getunderneath. What is the motivation?
Are you actually motivated towork on this? More often than not,
my word of the day isintentionality, right. Being intentional.
(11:22):
But I think a lot of us justare in, you know, can. And it happens
to me. I'm sure it happens toyou. Right. You fall into a rinse,
repeat life often.
Right.
Just going to do the samething today that I did yesterday.
I'm going to show up at workand check the same boxes. And I find
even with coaching often whatI'm doing is having people pause,
(11:43):
step back, step out of thatand have we even examined what it
is.
You want and why we go fromthis is where I am to this is how
I'm going to solve it. Theseare the actions going to take and
like hold on, yeah, hold on asecond. That's why things don't work.
It's you're. And that's whyit's difficult for someone to read
(12:07):
a book and then make a change.And why coaching is so powerful because
we personalize the approachand we also fully help someone understand,
you know, what are the corereasons why they want to achieve
something, what it means tothem personally. Because then you
can also figure out what arethe things that are actually preventing
that from happeningpersonally. So limiting beliefs,
(12:28):
environment, etc. But yeah,under the, the why we know it's important.
There's, I think, I thinkwe've, we've played that, we've played
that now that story prettyregularly with like the Simon Sinek,
you know, and the importanceof why or the why and purpose and
passion. But it can sometimesfeel a little touchy feely. I remember
(12:51):
when I was leading a workshopon managing to motivate and the model
really focused on the initialpillar of trust and someone raised
their hand, senior executivegovernment. They're like, seems a
little touchy feely to me.Then I go, good, wonderful, great.
(13:12):
Let's talk about that. Let'stalk about why emotions play a role
in productivity and engagementand job satisfaction and we can't
overlook them. Now. I do thinkwe have a little bit of an issue
generationally with holdingpeople accountable and saying like,
this is what you have toachieve now. Let's build an environment
that supports you to achievethat. We still have to hold you accountable
(13:37):
despite emotions. But yeah, Idon't think we dive into enough on
why someone shows up to workand if we expect to lead them, we
need to know that information.
As much of a, you know, lefthand turn as this might be. My, my
ears perked up. So what, whatis the challenge that you're seeing
in terms of generationallywhen it comes to holding people accountable?
(14:03):
And I, I'm so torn. I'd loveto hear your perspective too. If
it's a generational issue orif it's a leadership, if it's a leadership
issue. Because if people aregoing into work and the leaders are
not defining roles andresponsibilities, providing direct
feedback and holding theiremployees accountable to that information,
(14:24):
then they can get away withwhatever they want and then they
learn different copingmechanism, coping mechanisms. Because
that, that is what works, thathelps them, helps them succeed in
their career. But if we haveleaders that just say no, you don't
do this, this job and youdon't have a job, then we would create
an understanding and a mindsettowards what's expected from work
(14:45):
and now. So people, I'veheard, maybe you've heard too, it's
like, oh, younger generationcan't take feedback to the point
where there are employees thatknow they're going to get negative
feedback from their manager ina one on one and they quit. They
literally go on leave andquit. They take their pto. I've heard
this before. And so that'smaybe that's the thing. But then
(15:06):
again, if you have a leaderand manager providing direct feedback
regularly and knowing how togive feedback and holding their employees
accountable, is that somethingthat's sustainable for somebody?
Because they still have to putfood on the table?
Right, right.
Well, it's interesting becauseI wonder, you said at the top of
the recording Right. That youhad all this experience with toxic
environments or poor leaders.And so, and maybe I'm taking a leap
(15:30):
and putting words in yourmouth, but sort of this, like, how
do I do different? Be betteror create, you know, better than
what I experienced.
Right.
And the leap, or not, not abig leap that I'm going to make is
like parenting too.
Right.
It's like I'm going to be, youknow, whatever. X better than what
I, you know, the, theparenting I received. And I say that
(15:53):
to kind of circle back to the,the idea of generations here, because
I've heard that.
Right.
I've heard that, you know,the, the youngest generation in the
workforce not really beingable to take feedback. But I, I wonder
if part of it is we've neverbeen great at giving feedback. There's
a hardening of expect or like,there's been an increasing softening
(16:16):
of expectation in terms of.
Right.
Older generations. I'm a exmillennial Cusp Myself. So, you know,
they change the. Every now andthen, they change the years on me
and I'm suddenly an X or I'm a mille.
Right.
And so you would say, youknow, there's a, you know, maybe
the Gen X has like a thickerskin and fewer expectations about
(16:37):
being treated well.
Right.
Versus, you know, the youngergeneration having maybe, maybe thinner
skin and expecting to betreated like a human. And I feel
like we've been teaching thisin the leadership development space
for a long time. This, likethe mentality of leave you, leave
your personal life at thedoor. You know, leave the emotions
(16:57):
at the door. This is business,it's not personal. You know, I feel
like we've been coachingpeople around. That's not how influence
works. You know, for at leastthe 20 years or so, I've been doing
this kind of work. I'm gettingkind of long winded here to say I've
even had this evolution of,like, I just think we've never been
good at feedback and we nowhave a generation that's expecting
(17:20):
better, expecting better,period, let alone expecting better
feedback. And even when I'mteaching feedback today, a lot of
what I teach today is you haveto start with why you care enough
to give the feedback. And thatneeds to be a part of the conversation.
Right?
Like, I heard this. I believein, you know, I believe in you or
(17:41):
I care about, you know, howothers are perceiving you or your
performance. And so I want togive you this feedback and support.
Right.
In helping you learn to dothis differently or behave differently,
whatever that you know, very,very broad example is here. I don't
know, I'm kind of rambling.What are your thoughts and reactions
(18:02):
to everything that just spewedout my mouth?
If I could maybe have my idealworld of work, I would have everybody
from a very early, early agebe with a leader. That is terrible.
Giving feedback and maybe alittle rude and direct and tough
(18:25):
because I think losing for meat a young age helped me be okay.
Losing and having toxicleaders helped me realize that it's
not personal. Now it can gotwo ways. You can actually end up
internalizing the feedback ina negative manner, that it influences
you throughout your career, oryou can maybe create some thick skin
(18:47):
and understand that thatfeedback doesn't define who you are
until you learn how to takeit. Yeah, I, I don't know if the,
the workforce is used to beinga little bit more self reliant and
sourcing their fulfillment andsatisfaction and drive from themselves
(19:09):
and are now instead lookingfor that positive recognition from
their current environment,which is a dangerous place to be
because self leadership is.I'm going to go towards this goal
no matter what happens aroundme. And despite being good or bad
at feedback, I think we'reseeing leaders unsure because they're
afraid of the reaction fromtheir workforce when in actuality
(19:32):
it should be as you weresharing. Hey, I care about your success
and development and I careabout the organization. You have
some expectations that youneed to hit. I might not say this
right, like I'm probably notgoing to. It's not meant to offend
you. It's meant to help youget better and keep your job or grow
in your job. I don't, I justdon't know if that conversation is
happening because when I was,I've actually had, I've worked a
(19:53):
lot of odd jobs because, youknow, trying to find the same. By
the way, same thing forfinding, finding a job and finding
career. I do a lot of talksaround career development and job
search and people are cominginto the room and they're saying,
this is the first time I'veever had to look for a job. Jobs
have fallen into my lap.They've been referred. I've, I've
been promoted. This is thefirst. I've been looking for a job
for two months. My world'sgonna end. I go, I've had two different
(20:16):
job searches go over twoyears. So I know that I can get a
job. I know that job searchescan take a long time. Same thing
with building a business. Oh,I, to get revenue. It's gonna Take
a year at certain, in certaininstances, at certain times, maybe
more so that that adversity,that resilience, I think is important
because it comes from thestruggle, it comes from those poor
(20:37):
and bad experiences. I thinkwe might be missing that a little
bit.
I can see that.
Right.
I think so that there's maybea question built in there too of
is the expectation, you know,maybe you're asking this, maybe you're
not, but is the expectationtoo high for those who are just joining
the workforce? Is there a thinskin? Right, so, but I think you're
(20:59):
right, you know,recommendation of like, you might
need to have a few managersbefore you decide what is terrible
feedback and what's not. But Istill think, you know, and I don't
think you're disagreeing withthis, but I still think that like
leaders are, you know, as agross generalization, terrible at
giving feedback. You know, Iremember being early, you know, early
(21:23):
in my, like going from theconsultancy to going internal. I
had this initial feeling likeI should strip the feedback module
out of this pre designed, youknow, three day workshop right in
my, you know, am I, I've gotpeople here who have been leading
(21:43):
restaurants for years. Likethey've got hundreds of people in
their restaurant if they don'tknow how to give. Like at the time
I think my own thinking was,am I being rude by assuming they
don't know how to givefeedback already? And it probably
took me five years from thatpoint, like going from that company
(22:04):
into another company toactually just come to the realization
of like, no, everybody's justkind of terrible at giving feedback.
It's actually rarer, rarer tohave a manager who is excellent at
giving feedback. And I've hada mixture of those experiences, right?
I've had some managers whowere great at giving feedback and
some managers who wereabsolutely awful at it. But I think,
(22:28):
you know, I finally, I kind ofcame to that realization that like,
no, everybody's pretty muchterrible at it and there's probably
a lot of room to grow at everycompany when it comes to the quality
and skill of providingfeedback. Welcome to the feedback
show, by the way.
No, I, it's, it's funny youbring this up because when I'm asked
(22:52):
for fun, you're like having aconnection conversation. Like if
you had to start all over,over tomorrow, Ben dropped in the
middle in this world withnothing that you've done and you
have to, you have to just kindof build from scratch. My answer
was actually, oh, I'd be a,I'd be a feedback trainer. I'd be
a feedback coach. I would sellone thing, it would be giving feedback.
It would mimic the SBIC modeland it would talk about how to give,
(23:15):
how to be non personal, actionoriented, growth oriented feedback.
Because people are terrible atit, organizations need it, employees
leave because of the lack ofit or because it's done in the wrong
way. And I think companieswould pay for it. So to that point,
welcome to the feedback show.Still everybody, but really bringing
(23:36):
this back to this fearlessidea. You know, when if we want to
be fearless in our careers, wehave to learn to be bigger and more
important than the situationsaround us. Meaning that if you get
feedback that isn't doesn'tmake you happy, tough. Your job is
to serve your manager and yourorganization. So what are you going
(23:59):
to do that serves you the mostin this situation? Be disengaged,
grovel, be dejected, look foranother job. Okay, does that serve
you the most? If it does,great, go for it, do it. But generally
it doesn't serve you the most.It does. Generally what serves you
the most is. Thank you forthat feedback. Let's put a plan together
to show my progress in thisdirection. I really want to continue
(24:22):
growing in this company. Soagain, thank you very much. And then
bringing it up, every one onone and I was reflecting on your
feedback. I done this and thisand this. Do you feel that we're
on track and managing uptowards it and too often people get
disengaged during theperformance management process or
(24:42):
when they get feedback andthey dig themselves a deeper hole
and it doesn't serve their career.
Yeah, yeah. We could open up awhole can of worms there around performance
management and whether or notleaders are truly honest and objective
and consistent with, you know,with rating performance too. Because
(25:06):
I find that's where the shockin performance management comes.
Conversations comes to, youknow, when you're not getting feedback
regularly and it's like soonce a year you're going to tell
me what you could have beentelling me all year long.
Right.
To have done better. But Idigress because I want to come back
to some of the concepts aroundbeing fearless. So you know, as you're
(25:32):
talking to audiences aboutbeing fearless, like I guess I'd
be curious a what's thestarting point? Where are people
coming to you? And then thisis the conversation that you're having
with them and you know, fromthere where. Let me, let me just
stop there before I doublebarrel the question.
(25:54):
I'm gonna grab a copy of thebook Just to give a little bit of
kind of clarity in terms ofwhen we talk about the professional
life, what categories are wetalking about fearless in? So you
have job satisfaction, whichis, do I feel engaged and filled
in my work? You haveleadership presence. So are you showing
up in a way where people wantto follow you and that's going to
help you grow within yourcareer and that leads into career
(26:17):
growth, which is like, what doyou want? How are you building a
brand to get there outside ofyour organization? So kind of this
in or creating someindependence in terms of what you're
working towards? Too manypeople define themselves by their
organization. And so peopletend to come to me for either of
those areas. I don't know whatI want. I'm afraid to go after what
I want. I'm burnt out fromdoing what I thought I wanted. So
(26:39):
what is that, like, sense ofself within your career and within
your job, which lends thesefulfillment and satisfaction? And
then it's, what do peoplethink of you at work? And are you
showing up as the executivethat maybe you need to. So are you
giving feedback, coaching,delegation, sharing ideas, strategic,
innovative, etc. Which allleads to our brand within a company
(26:59):
and our success? And thenreally like, are you, are you more
than your job? Are you morethan your company? And how are you
continuing to serve yourbroader career, not just your job
and people? So people haveareas in all those categories.
Yeah, yeah. So it rings to me of.
(27:20):
Right.
Which I think, you know, I'mjust slow on the uptake here, is
Right. This is about, youknow, a life partially. Right. About
a life well lived.
Right.
And living from a place ofsort of the ongoing seeking of, you
know, happiness or satisfaction.
Right.
And being able to kind ofexplore, all right, well, I don't
(27:42):
feel good. And why and whereis it in my life that I'm in or not
in alignment with, you know,what matters to me? Am I. Am I finally
picking up on, picking up onthe theme here, living for.
Yourself, hence the name ofthe broader company. Are we giving
(28:03):
our power away at our jobs orare we taking accountability, responsibility,
and feeling empowered to befearless towards what we want? Something
as simple as, you know,quitting a job. Something as simple
as going to your boss andasking to work on a project. I see
you say quitting your job issimple, but it's not simple. It's.
It's a big decision andchoice. But so many people teeter
(28:26):
back and forth between, shouldI leave my job, should I stay at
my job? When you're you'rejust preventing growth because you
haven't made a decision. Itcan be something as simple as raising
your hand in a meeting andsharing an idea or setting up a skip
level meeting. So meeting withyour manager's manager, it could
be applying for that internalpromotion or it could even be going
(28:48):
to your boss and asking forwhat's expected of you to be able
to achieve a certain rating ona performance management process.
I don't know, you probablyheard this and I've even done this
where you go into your reviewand you think you're going to get
promoted, but you haven't everhad a conversation, what were the
metrics and goals andexpectations to get promoted six
months before? And so then youend up being pretty disengaged for
(29:12):
three to six months or end upgoing and finding another position
because of that one singleexperience which basically you had
responsibility over. So then,yeah, how do you pave a career and
a job to serve you? So it canbe, it can be your actual work. So
these are the components ofjob satisfaction. Could be your actual
work, the work that you do. Itcould be work that you think you're
going to get to do. So howyou're going to learn, what challenges
(29:35):
you're going to face, it couldbe your social relationships. So
who you engage with andinteract with on a, on a daily, weekly,
monthly basis. And then it canbe the meaning that you perceive.
So it's perceptions affirmyour work, the impact that you think
that you're actually having.And you get to play with all those.
You get to play with yourwork, your social relationships,
(29:55):
your environment and themeaning behind your work.
Yeah. Yeah, I like it. So onething I'm. Because I think I've been
thinking about this more overthe last year since I started consulting
sort of on my own, which is.And even when I've done career coaching
with others, right. The firstthing, one of the first conversations
(30:19):
I try to have with people islike, well, let's talk about what
you want to do, right? Andthen usually the first thing someone
says is like, well, I want tobe the head of marketing. And I'm
like, that's not what I asked.Like, let's take a step back. Like,
what do you want to do? Whatdo you want each. You know, what
are the things you like doingevery day? You know, what do you
want your days to look like?What are some of the, you know? And
(30:43):
like, how do you break apartthose component pieces to say, cool.
Now if we put all of thattogether, Is that ahead of marketing
or it might that be, you know,something else. Right. And so I would
say for. For me, you know,stepping back into consulting was,
you know, how do I tip thebalance more towards doing what I
(31:05):
love to do day in and day outversus sort of fighting to be able
to spend even 5 to 10% of mytime doing the kind of things that
I love?
Right.
There's obviously somefinancial level component to some
of this too.
Right.
(31:25):
It's like, well, I mean, Iwant to just watch soap operas all
day. Like, that's not reallygonna satisfy or not sustain the
life that maybe you want. Butpart of it too then is also coaching
people around. Well, that'sonly, you know, 40 plus, depending
(31:46):
on how much you work.
Right.
40 plus hours of your week.There's still all this other time
and weekends. Right. Like,where are you finding fulfillment
too?
Right.
So I find, like, sometimeswhen I'm doing career coaching, I'm
also dipping into what are thethings that are draining your bucket
and what are the things thatare filling your bucket? And maybe
some of those things areoutside of work too. And are you
(32:09):
being as intentional as youcould about maximizing, you know,
your. Your all seven days ofthe week, you know, and all waking
hours of the week, you know,on top of that?
Yeah. Your whole life? Yeah. Iwould be walking down the street
and seeing someone shovelsnow. Yeah. Like, we have very different
work experiences, but somehowyou find enjoyment and fulfillment
(32:35):
from that experience, justlike I do and shoveling snow. By
the way, I grew up in Chicagodespite being in Austin right now.
So there was a lot of snowthere. And. And yes, their work job
satisfaction is not solelybased on. Or life satisfaction. It's
not solely based on what youdo from an actual work perspective.
There's a lot of othercomponents from work itself, but
(32:56):
also where you spend your dayand what you're working for, what
that money goes to and howyou're living your life. There's
a lot of other components. Wetend to sometimes overemphasize the
work itself, but that's alsowhy, going back to why leaders need
to know what the why is thatsomeone's showing up to work for
in what someone's doing afterwork. And I know it's just like this
(33:18):
little touchy because there'sthat separation of work and life,
but knowing what someone'shome experience, which is the other,
generally a larger portion ofthem than work, helps you lead them,
helps you craft your approachtowards them to connect with them,
to build incentives towards Them.
(33:39):
Have you, have you found this?I think coming out of the pandemic,
I think there was a biggerpush for thinking beyond like thinking
about the life well livedbeyond just my work.
Right.
And my work and my title. So Ifeel like there was a bit of a societal
(34:00):
push in that direction. AndI'm wondering a, you know, were you
feeling that to B, is thatpendulum starting to like swing back
the farther we get from, youknow, being locked in our homes for
months on end?
Well, as much as I wish I kneweverything from a sociological perspective,
(34:22):
like when it comes to Covidthough they're just high level notes
are we lost lots of things. Wewere afraid for our health. People
close to us lost their lives.Many people include lost their jobs.
And it was the first time thata lot of people realized that the
(34:44):
things that they thought wereguaranteed were not. And so that
lent itself now toappreciating the self more I think
than the job. And then withincreased freedom from, oh look,
we can work from home. Why amI doing this two hour commute? Why
(35:06):
am I going into this office topeople that I don't really care about
to a company that can justfire me if they decide to. I think
that all came together into alovely little melting pot to help
people realize that maybe theyshould have three jobs, they shouldn't
tell their employer. But atthe same time then it's like employers
are realizing that they're,they've gained a lot of power back
(35:28):
and that the person that, thatthat holds the power is the person
that writes the check andthey're making demands again and
people have the choice to workat those organizations or not. You
see a lot of return to officepolicies falling into place and people,
some people leaving and somepeople staying. And I think work
(35:51):
at the careers generally isalways this power dynamic and people
are just becoming more awareof it now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Interesting. I just was thinking
about that.
Right.
And I think, I think even justthinking about like this, the return
to work push that's happening,you're seeing that in Austin a bit
as well.
Yeah, it's, it's everywhere. Ithink we're back. The last statistic
(36:14):
I saw is we're back to preCovid rates of job postings that
are remote. So it's about, Ithink it's 20 to 30% of the workforce.
But then again that tends toequate to the number of people that
want to work fully remote.We're seeing a lot more of a hybrid
model. But then that justLimits who can work for what position
(36:35):
because generally either haveto relocate or be. Be there be. A
lot of companies are moving tothree days in the three days or five
days in the office.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which. Well, all this to sayby the way is that you as a worker
hopefully just brings a littlebit of an awareness to the fact that
(36:55):
you have decisions to make andyou don't have to abide by the decisions
of an organization if youwant. Like I was talking to someone
the other day and they'relike, well, my job search is going
to be, is going to be really,it's going to, they're just, they.
We come up with these selflimiting beliefs around location
and salary and style ofleadership when we don't have enough
(37:17):
information to make thosedecisions. And so part of our job
as a, as a job seeker is to goget the information that we need
and not limit ourselves by ourbeliefs, but more so by actual evidence
that we can find. And Ipromise you, if you found something
to show you one thing, you canfind the exact opposite. Showing
you another thing and samething as leadership. It's just try
(37:38):
not to limit yourself based onyour preconceived notions of what
something needs to be orshould be or how someone is supposed
to perform and instead go, golive, go act, go learn, because eventually
you can. And go build becauseif the thing that you want isn't
there yet, you can go createit. Just basically let go of some
personal limits in regards towhat you think is possible and instead
(38:00):
hold true to what you want andgo make it happen.
Yeah, yeah. And I think, Ithink it's such a weird employment
market at the moment too whereit's like, and I don't know what
the, what the average tenureright now at organizations is, I
want to say for likeexperienced professionals, it's probably
like three to five years,right? So I think part of it too
(38:22):
might be having a healthy, youknow, perspective that, well, I might
only be at this place forthree to five years, which really
in the grand scheme of thingsis not that long. And the interview
process is, is so weirdanyway, right? Like everybody's trying
to put on a best face and youdon't necessarily really get a full
(38:45):
understanding of what you'rereally signing up for until you've.
And that goes both ways,right? That goes for the hiring,
you know, the hiring side andthe, you know, new employee side.
Neither of you really knowwhat you're signing up for till you're
in it.
Right.
And probably even then for 612months. So maybe part of it too is.
(39:06):
And I feel like I seeemployers are less concerned about
job hopping.
Right.
Quote unquote, as they oncewere. So part of it too might be
giving yourself permission to.I'm gonna just go. It might not like
unless something's really notfeeling right. It's like I'm not
going to be fully sure ofeverything until I've been on the
(39:27):
ground long enough toexperience it and giving myself some
grace that maybe I'll leavequicker than I thought. Very few
people stay at companies thesedays, 20 plus years, right? Yeah.
I feel like we could keep kindof rapping about all kinds of subjects,
(39:48):
but I want to start to bringus in for our landing. So I ask every
guest to prepare a few piecesof advice for the advice column,
so to speak. So the first iswhat's your advice for directly for
leaders out there?
Reset your expectations forwhat you're responsible for. You
(40:09):
control the environment thatsomeone works in, so you are responsible
for setting the direction. Soclarifying roles and responsibilities,
ensuring that they have theresources to be successful for entering
the environment is productiveand positive and oriented towards
those goals. But you're notdirectly responsible for their work
(40:31):
product. And so being aware ofthat, that can hopefully inspire
delegation, inspire coachingand help you maybe take a step back
and be a little bit morestrategic and how you build an environment
around each of your employees.
Nice. Yeah, I would say I beenin a number of coaching conversations
recently where, you know, beentalking about like, how do you continue
(40:51):
to separate yourself from thehow of everybody else, everybody
else's how, and you know, setthat stage. I like that.
And that's a sense offearlessness because too many leaders
are trying to have a grapple,hold on how something is done and
you can really limitinnovation and you end up, your altitude
(41:12):
is so low then. And so as anexecutive and as a leader, you have
to just kind of raise that sight.
Yeah. Leaders are regularlylamenting not, and I've seen this
at every level inorganizations, organizations sort
of regularly lamenting nothaving enough time for strategic
endeavors.
Right.
And it's when you startunpacking the choices that they're
making on how they're spendingtheir time. You know, nine times
(41:33):
out of ten, it comes down toexactly that.
Right.
You're kind of diving down toolow. So what's your advice for those
who support leaders?
Well, take some accountabilitytowards the career and job that you
want. So again, you're job isto serve them. Your first job is
to help your Manager look goodand help them achieve their goals.
(41:56):
Sometimes don't like hearingthat. But at the same time to do
that you need information fromthem. And too many employees that
I know that have leaders don'tmanage up appropriately. Now if we're
going to go the otherdirection and go leaders of leaders,
then one of the things, I wasactually working with the CEO once
(42:17):
and we're rolling out thiswhole huge like weekly one on one
process with templates,training. It's the first time they're
going to have it. It's bestpractice. And I pause, I go, hey,
do you have one on ones withyour senior leadership team? You
know that's not how we talkall the time. We don't need them.
I go, well, I've talked to theentire senior leadership team one
on one and they don't feelsupported and they don't feel they
(42:39):
have your time and they don'tfeel like they get feedback from
you. You know where that comesfrom? A one on one. So too many leaders
skip one on ones for theirleaders because they think that they're
too professional or tooexperienced to need them. And I think
we're missing out.
Yep. I've never heard anemployee who doesn't have regular
one on ones with their leadersound happy with that. It's always
(43:04):
my leader doesn't even have aone on one with me. So yeah, I like
that advice. So how can peopleget a hold of you? How can. Where
can they find your book? Tellus a little bit more about. Yeah,
the what, how, why of gettinga little bit more Dr. Benjamin Ritter
in their lives.
So check out live fouryourselfconsulting dot com. It's where everything
lives. Website content,podcasts, book, all this stuff live
(43:28):
for yourself. Consulting.com.you just want the book Becoming Fearless
by Dr. Benjamin Ritter. It'son Amazon, it's on Audible Spot.
I do highly recommend thepaperback. It's. It's might even
be in your local library.There's a big library push initially
so you can request it theretoo if you don't want to purchase
it. But overall, if you enjoyit, tell a friend, leave a review.
And the social platform thatI'm active on is LinkedIn. So look
(43:51):
up Dr. Benjamin Ritter. Feelfree to connect, let me know that
you heard me on the Step uppodcast and maybe there'll be a little
freebie in it for you.
Nice. All right, well I'llmake sure I link to all that in the
show notes and the post that Iwill eventually make on LinkedIn
for the release of thisepisode. Ben, I'm so glad to have
had the opportunity to talk toyou today. I appreciate you coming
on.
(44:11):
Yeah, I appreciate you havingme. It was a fun little chat on fearlessness
and hopefully we've helpedsomeone take a little action in their
career and in their life.
Nice. Awesome. Thank you. Thatbrings us to the end of our episode.
Thanks for listening. I'dencourage you to head on over over
to my website, Kent Coach, andstart a conversation with me there.
Or check out my promotionplaybook at Kent Coach Playbook.
(44:33):
Before you go on with yourday, I ask that you please take a
moment to leave a rating and areview wherever you listen to podcasts.
Five stars. That helps putthis podcast in front of more eyes
and ears. Until next time,Take it easy.
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