September 16, 2025 • 46 mins
Judy’s mission is to catalyze leaders of all backgrounds to be their very best and to help organizations build a workplace ecosystem that allows all individuals to thrive.
Judy is passionate to help “culture-crossers” (women, persons of color, first gen and global professionals) express their Best Self to achieve their highest potential. She also engages with organizations to develop workplace ecosystems and inclusive managers who engage, inspire and promote individuals of different social identities, backgrounds and cultures. As a Chinese immigrant woman who grew up in NYC, Judy’s first-hand struggles and accomplishments as a culture-crosser have deeply informed the mission and work of the firm.
Judy’s impact is proven with a broad base of institutional clients such as McKinsey, Biogen, Fidelity Investments and City Year. Judy is also a sought after lecturer and coach at leading business schools around the country including Wharton, Tuck and Harvard Business School.
Whether facilitating diversity, equity and inclusion discussions at institutions, or coaching individual leaders in demanding growth trajectories or lecturing on effective storytelling at US business schools, Judy brings her passion and authenticity to engage and empower others. Judy is impassioned to write about the intersection of leadership, identity and culture; and, has been featured in numerous professional and national publications.
We’re diving deep into the nitty-gritty of leadership in this episode, and trust me, it’s a ride you don’t want to miss! The main takeaway? Great leaders show up for their teams, especially when the going gets tough. We chat with Judy Shen Feilerman about how simply asking three questions can transform your leadership game: How are you? What’s exciting you at work? How can I help? It’s all about making your people feel seen and valued, which we know boosts morale and productivity like nobody's business. With the world feeling more chaotic than ever, it’s crucial for leaders to step back, breathe, and focus on their team's emotional well-being. So, grab your favorite drink, kick back, and let’s get into how we can all thrive as leaders and make a real impact!
Navigating the choppy waters of leadership in tough times is no easy feat, but that's exactly what we dive into during our latest conversation with Judy Shen Feilerman. She brings her A-game, sharing her journey from an immigrant kid in NYC to becoming a powerhouse executive at Polaroid and eventually carving her own path as an entrepreneur. The episode digs deep into the essence of leadership, especially in today's unpredictable climate where fear and uncertainty reign supreme. Judy emphasizes the need for leaders to step up and genuinely care for their teams, not just as employees but as human beings with real feelings and fears. She throws out some killer questions for leaders to ask their teams, like “How can I help you thrive?” and “What are you really excited about right now?” These aren’t your run-of-the-mill corporate queries; they’re the kind of questions that show genuine concern and can foster a culture of trust and belonging. It’s all about leaning in, listening, and being present for your people—because when they feel seen and valued, they’re more likely to go above and beyond for the organization. So if you’re a leader looking to navigate the current chaos, this episode is packed with insights that might just help you turn fear into opportunity, and uncertainty into innovation.
The conversation flows from Judy’s own experiences in corporate America, where she learned the ropes of leadership from the ground up, to her current focus on helping marginalized voices thrive in the workplace. She challenges the status quo and encourages leaders to reflect on their true intentions: are they in it for the power and profit, or are they genuinely invested in the well-being of their people? The discussion takes a serious turn as...
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Actually, simply listening towhat makes you motivated. What are
you really interested in doingright now, given the work that you
have? How can I be helpful?Because those three simple questions
shows people your directreports that you care about them
as people, as human beings.Right? That dignity, that sense of
(00:26):
being seen is what helps allof us thrive. And so it's in a time
when you know that certainparticular people are actually feeling
heightened degree of fear.Wow. A great leader at this point
does move to them, look atthem and say, how can I really take
care of you in this moment?That's the opportunity for leaders
(00:46):
today. Lean in.
Hi there and welcome to theStep up expert, Voices for Leadership
Growth. I'm your host, KentKnievel. Every week I talk to experts
who focus on helping leadersstep up their leadership game. If
you're new to the show, thenon whatever platform you're using,
I encourage you to subscribeso you never miss an episode. One
last thing. As a leadershipdevelopment consultant and executive
(01:09):
coach, I have a particularinterest in supporting recent internally
promoted leaders. If that'syou, or if you support a leader who
has been recently promoted, Iencourage you to visit my website
at Kent Coach Playbook anddownload a free copy of my 90 day
blueprint filled withpractical advice for you or the leader
you support in hitting theground running and truly stepping
up to their new leadershiplevel. Without further ado, on with
(01:32):
the show. Welcome, everybody.Today we are here to talk about the
importance of leadership whentimes are tough. And with me for
this conversation today isJudy Shen Feilerman. Judy and I met,
I want to say it was 20, 21,most likely when I was running the
sponsorship program atCargill, when I was working on the
(01:53):
DEI team there. And we broughtyou in to talk about owning your
own career when you're not apart of the sort of dominant corporate
demographic. Right. How doyou, let's just call it what it is.
How do you own your own careerwhen you're not a white male in,
you know, corporateenvironment? And you know as well
as you know, what can leadersdo to support people, too? So loved
(02:15):
what you brought to the tablethen. Wanted to have you on the podcast
here today for thisconversation. So thank you for being
here. I'd love for you tointroduce yourself more and want
to just hear a little bitabout your own career journey too,
before we really kick off.
Okay, Ken, thank you so muchfor having me here. I am so thrilled
to be here and to really havethis opportunity to talk about leadership
(02:37):
when I think right now itmatters most. And one of the look
at the background that I havehad is the American dream. Coming
here as an immigrant kid atthe age of six, growing up in New
York City with no English anda culture I had no idea about, and
then being able to kind ofloving to be with people and ideas
(03:02):
and loving to make thingshappen. Got into Harvard undergrad,
eventually Harvard BusinessSchool, and then into the corporate
world and consumer packagedgoods. Became the youngest executive
at Polaroid and theneventually coming into my own entrepreneurship
and my, my own firm in thelast 20 years. I talk about that
not because of like me, I talkabout that in terms of what I love
(03:25):
about this country now. What,what I love about the potentiality
all humans have that getexpressed in the US in a way that
we don't necessarily get inother countries. Right. I do think
that there is some things thatare being challenged right now in
that, in that particular area.But in, in that journey, what I have
seen for sure are two things.One that you just said is we make
(03:46):
our future. We, we need to ownwhat we want in our future. Especially
when we're not the powerdominant people. That's true in any,
you know, culture by the way,people worry about like are we saying
power dominant white men? Ohmy gosh. Is that like every culture
has a power dominant. Thequestion is if you're not the power
dominant group, how do youstill go live your dream and make
it happen? Right. And so I waslucky enough and worked my butt off
(04:09):
to get to those positions. Andso I've really dedicated the last
20 years focusing on twothings, best self and belonging to
how do all people have theopportunity to live their best selves?
Especially if you know thatover the history these are marginalized
individuals that didn't getsupport, think redline and access
(04:29):
and those kinds of things. Andthen having worked with amazing,
amazing white men who havebeen my mentors and my sponsors,
knowing that they're out thereto support people through their journeys
as great leaders. And they'realways great people who look to develop
people. And so I want to beout there and inspiring the ecosystem
of leaders to do that verything. Because at the end of the
(04:50):
day I'm a mathematical bottomsline kind of person, which is when
you do right by people, youalways do right by your business.
Yeah. So I forgot until wewere in our prerecording today that
you had a CPG background,which I think I didn't necessarily
have when we first met do now.So I love that we have that in common
But I think if I remembercorrectly, unlike other weirdos like
(05:15):
me, you don't come from the HRbackground. If I remember too right,
you came into the kind ofconsulting you're doing more or less
from the business side. I'dlove to just hear a little bit about
what were those beginnings andhow did that lead you into the kind
of consulting you're doing now?
Yeah, right. So, Right. Imean, I am the odd duck because my
(05:35):
background actually is onfront lines, P and L management.
And so in this kind of work,it's also where I think executives
find comfort with me because Italk their language, I've lived their
lives. Which is, which is kindof a fun thing, frankly for me because
I use a lot of peopleanalogies with business analogies.
Right. And so, but, but when Ileft B school when I was in corporate
(05:59):
America, had no idea aboutexecutive development or, or even
coaching and, and really wasjust learning about hr. Right. So,
so, so I got into thiscompletely by happenstance. It really
was because I left corporatereally kind of very openly because
I had major infertilityissues. And I decided to focus on
being a mother, which I neverthought about was that important
(06:20):
to me until you can't be amother. But also you're like, wow,
do I really want to be a mom?It's like, oh my gosh, yes. And so
when I had a chance potentialof never becoming a mom, I made the
really hard choice to, toleave corporate America at the very,
very height. I was theyoungest executive of Polaroid at
that point, decided to leaveto pursue motherhood. I have a 20
and 24 year old, so yay. And Ithink it was really out of that moment
(06:43):
when I had a colleague thatsaid, you know what, you've always
been a great coach to yourpeople. Want to come over to my firm
and do some strategydevelopment. And then eventually
I was like, what's thiscoaching thing? You know, and, and
then just kind of fell in lovewith the whole concept of helping
people develop. And I thinkfor someone like you that knows consumer
packaged goods, I lovedeveloping brands. Right. Because
(07:03):
brands make people happy.Right. Really good products make
people happy. You figure outwhat they cared about and you really
made sure you focus on theconsumer voice and you take some
of those really samefundamental caring moments, you move
it to human beings and it goesinto coaching.
Who are the people?
What do they care about? Howdo you make them the best they can
be? How do you make them, theorganization happy and meet their
(07:26):
goals? So it's been a Less ofa kind of record scratching thing
than people think. It'sactually been a really natural shift
over. And I love people and Ilove developing people.
Interesting. Yeah. What poppedin my head was the, like, there's
some basics to consulting thatare really just problem solving that
(07:47):
are sort of you're, you'redoing in any position whether or
not the title consultant isthere, which is, you know, it's like
the number one question thatsometimes people forget to stop and
ask is the like, wait, whatare we really trying to solve here?
Which is you would be doingthat in a line of business or in
an analyst role or as aconsultant anyway. Right. So there's
(08:08):
some of these just fundamentalhow you look at and solve problems
that are sort of titleagnostic. Right. You can, you can
bring those skills like you'vedone, you know, bring those skills
into consulting from thebusiness side, for example. I love
that.
Yeah. And I think one of thethings that, that, that has, that
I didn't realize wasconsidered quote, unquote, unique
(08:29):
was the fact that, you know,everything I did had to have an outcome
that was metrics oriented.That's how you run all. And so as
I was doing all thisdevelopment stuff, I had surveys
and outcomes and people like,oh, look at all this. All this is
like, of course you have tosurvey. Of course you have to have
an outcome. So, so I'm really,really, really focused on, you know,
being clear about objectivesto your point, having a journey and
(08:51):
then make sure the outcomethen meets the objectives. Right.
In a metrics oriented way. SoI love the fact that you talk about
how we really can bring in somany transferable skills or experiences
into anything that we do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anybody canrun an event. It's a question of,
you know, what are we actuallyhoping comes out of it. Right. And
having that conversation.Yeah, Bravo.
(09:12):
Same thing about leadership.Why are we all here, really?
Yeah, well, so let's talkabout that. Right. So I think, you
know, we had a very shortconversation, saved all the good
stuff for the podcast, Ipromise to our listeners here, which
is, you know, we're in amoment that I think, and I think
you were saying, right. Isreally a, a call for good leadership.
(09:34):
The need for good leadershiphas never been higher perhaps than
when times are tough. Right.And we're certainly in tough times
from many angles.
Right. I mean, I think wehave, we need a word that is a differentiator
(09:54):
because we keep on hearing theword unprecedented. The unprecedented
has become normal. And so ifthe unprecedented has become normal,
we are in surely unchartedterritory. Let's just call it for
what it is. And so whetheryou're talking about a leader in
nonprofit, in education, incorporate, in government, more important
(10:17):
than ever. Why the heck areyou there? Why are you there, leaders?
Are you there because you justwant a power? Are you there because
you want to just maximize theshare price so you can pocket all
of that and so you can have areally comfortable life, or are you
here actually to lead? I mean,this is, I mean as, as, as an executive
development coach. My point islike, why are you here as a leader?
(10:40):
It's okay. Just be aware ofwhy you actually chose to have this
job because the people see itanyway. I mean, this is what's always
so amazing for me is leadersthink somehow their true intent is
hidden from their people. Yourpeople always know. So if you're
transparent anyway, just speakit to yourself. And so, and the reason
(11:01):
I say that is more than everyour people are watching. Who are
you really for? And if it'sabout you, I'm okay, I'll take care
of me too. You know what'sgoing to happen in all this uncertainty,
all this unpredictability,it's the unraveling of the organization
(11:21):
and the engagement of people.And we all talk about wanting productivity,
innovation. Kiss that onegoodbye. I mean, sincerely, unless
you're a leader that issticking your neck out to take care
of your people today, you'rekind of done on your outcomes basis.
You can speak all you want,but for someone who is very, very
bottoms line oriented and Iknow that people's engagement, sense
(11:44):
of safety, sense of beingseen, ties to productivity and sales
and turnover and retention,all other stuff, it's just math.
The math to me is pretty clearthat we're in dire straits. But the
great leaders are out there.Use this time to maximize how you
lead because you will come outof all of this X times better outcomes
(12:08):
and people engage and loyaltyand retention than the leaders that
really were there just tosurvive. So I'm always about go thrive.
But thriving in this momenttakes so much courage because our
systems are actually unraveling.
Yeah, so many little thoughtsbubbled up for me here. So. Right.
I think to your point, and Iwas in some conversations over the
(12:31):
summer where some thoughtleaders were, I think were really
leaning in on, hey, if you'rein this to make gobs of money, great,
just own that. Right. Andthat, that's certainly a part of
it. Right. I mean, I think,you know, current state of society
is money is needed, right? Tofeed your family, house your family.
(12:52):
All that.
And money's not bad.
That's okay.
I love money, too.
But perhaps you need to followthe bouncing ball a little bit more
too, Especially if you're aleader or a business owner who has
team members around. If it'snot just you, then you need all these
other people to hit that goal.And how are you going to do that
(13:15):
in a way that has thatmultiplier effect, so to speak. Right.
And it makes me think of mytime working in the restaurant industry
where there were some reallyclear differences, even between sort
of corporately run storesversus franchise stores. Right? So
corporately run stores where,you know, a company might own hundreds
(13:36):
and the general manager ofthat restaurant, you know, is technically
a corporate employee, may ormay not be incented at all on. On
the performance of that storespecifically, versus Bob, who has
a friend. Let's just makesomething up here. Bob, who has a
franchise to subway down theblock, right? And that's Bob's business.
And he's much moreincentivized to have a highly engaged
(14:01):
staff, right. To know that,hey, the more engaged my staff is,
the better experience theygive guests, the more money guests
spe. Right. That there.There's this sort of level of ownership
that you need to take for yourbusiness. And thinking about then
how do you. How are youleading your people in a way to obtain
(14:25):
those objectives that help youobtain your goals? I just took us,
I think, maybe three timesaround the cul de sac on that one.
Did any of that land?
Well, I mean, totally, right?I mean, I think there is something
about ownership of any person,whether it's the ownership of the
leaders, the ownership I'vetaught business school graduates
(14:45):
and so on and so forth. And soat the end of the day is, again,
why are you here and whatoutcomes are you seeking? Right?
And I think one of theelements that when I work with managers
and leaders, and I said, andmy point here is, are you a leader
of people? Are you a managerof tasks? You can have people that
(15:08):
are amazing manager of tasksthat get things done, but they will
never inspire the people whoare working for them to reach farther
than what they're. Whatthey're told to do in a very literal
way. And that's the beauty ofleaders, differential managers. I
don't mean like managers likemanager levels, but manager of things,
right? And the great leaderscan do management of tasks, but then
(15:33):
somehow gets into the heart ofthe people, the minds of the people,
and get them to do the thingsthat they themselves, they themselves
knew they could, but they,maybe their team didn't. And the
whole thing about the espritde corps, what happens in, you know,
groups that just somehowgalvanize and you have so many, so
much of now research in orgbehavior is talking about that's
(15:56):
because people are listenedto, people feel safe. Again, this
notion of my work before mytitle and leaders that really are
affiliative, that aredemocratic, that are also visionary,
that when I can bring thepeople in and take them somewhere
that they can imagine, wherepeople can go is just beyond what
(16:17):
we can imagine. What's reallyfascinating is fear also works. Fear
actually works. Contractpeople make them do things, make
them scared. They'll beproductive as long as you keep that
pressure on them and they'llgo as far as you're going to push
them. But after that they'reburnout, tired, they're not as engaged,
(16:38):
so and so forth. So I'm notsaying that fear doesn't work, but
I'm like, if you can bringmore joy and dignity to the world,
why don't you just choose thatone? Like why don't you choose that
path as opposed to the path offear which is like everybody's upset,
getting sick, you know,everyone goes home a little more
contracted. Like come on,let's just choose a better path,
(17:01):
right? The happier path. Andhappiness does not mean the fact
that people are not going tobe engaged. And that's a misunderstanding
sometimes. But as you werejust saying is what is the motivation?
Why am I here and seeing thepeople not just as the means, but
also the end? And I thinkwhen, when you really treat the people
that are in your team as theend and be gracious and grateful
(17:23):
that they're the ones thatallow you to achieve your, your,
your actual larger objective,that should be a moment of humility,
right? To kind of see what,what you together created that you
as a leader without them couldnever create. So I think the leaders
that believe that they shouldget at this point, was it 600x versus
the lowest level person andreally believe that they themselves
(17:46):
are the reason why the companyis where it is. I think they actually
haven't really understood kindof operational analysis because if
you look at just fundamentallike operation analysis, take all
those hundreds of people out,the junior level people, you know,
the shoes can't make it run.So. So I think again the great leaders
(18:07):
understand that every levelperson at every part is what actually
allows the greater good andthe greater outcomes to happen. And
that's what I love doing ishelping them thrive.
So I just thinking back to apodcast guest I had on who I think
very openly said, I'm going tobutcher it. And it's so funny because
(18:28):
the day we're recording is theday that the podcast dropped, in
fact, and I just listened toit this morning. But it was something
like, we think about who's themost important person in the company
and leaders. It's easy forthem to think that it's. It's them,
right? That it's the leaders.But at the end of the day, you know,
depending on your business,it's the people who are selling or,
(18:51):
you know, I'll go back to therestaurant industry. It's the people
who are making the food anddelivering it to your table, right.
Like there, who are, who areactually servicing, you know, your
customer base, so to speak. SoI think it's interesting to go back
to, like, what, what reallymatters here. So I was coaching a
(19:11):
gentleman this spring, slashsummer and spring. And I think I
would say, like, it seemedlike every week that I talked to
this person, his hair was onfire. And it was on fire because
they were in a line of. In abusiness sector where I think we
were in a particular space ofwhat I was calling tariff roulette,
(19:35):
you know, in the spring. Andso it was just chaos for this guy.
It was just chaos. You know,every week they were. It was a sprint
of math exercises to, like,figure out how to balance the scales
in some way of what theprojected cost of, you know, goods
coming in were going to be andhow they needed to either go back
(19:57):
and negotiate or how thatneeded to flow, you know, to customers
and pricing. And so what youwere saying just had me thinking
about, like, that chaosmoment. And I think there's been
a lot of moments of chaos forleaders like that this year. So what
are some of the conversationsyou're having with leader leaders
around? Like, again, I thinkthere's many angles with, with which
(20:19):
how 2025 has been aninteresting and challenging and maybe
chaotic year. What are some ofthe conversations you're having with
people around how this hasbeen sort of that call to. That call
for leadership, so to speak.
Yeah. So, you know, I reallyhave the opportunity to really speak
(20:39):
with different constituencies,if you will, within organizations.
I work with C level leaders, Iwork with senior mid senior leaders,
I work with junior people. Andso I work with the, at the C level
largely, you know, white menand then other positions, women,
(21:02):
people of color, LGBTQ plus,because that's also a core part of
the focus of the firm and mypassion as, as an immigrant Chinese
American woman. And, and what,what, what I know for sure is happening
across is a degree of anxietyand fear about the self, about the
(21:22):
larger organization and justconstantly, just non stop shifting.
This is the whole thing aboutthe uncertainty, unpredictability,
right. That people like, youknow, so, so the, the what, what
happens when we are in thesemoments of uncertainty and unpredictability
is we tend to really start tohave this narrow focus on things
(21:45):
that we think we'recontrolling. So it tends to be the
left brain. The, the numbers,the production, the volume, the task
list, all those things arewhat we actually focus on when in
fact, rather than gettingreally, really micro focused and
myopic, we need to really pullback and get to the big picture here.
(22:09):
What I've been working withexecutive senior leaders who are
running, running, running is Iactually give them breathing space.
When are you actually havingsome quiet time? Because your job
is not to run. Your job isactually vision and be strategic.
Where's your space? And somany leaders are doing, doing, doing.
(22:31):
They're taking away from thework that they're meant to do, which
is a step back and watch itall and then figure out strategically,
where am I going to move. So Ithink for a lot of the senior leaders,
it's taking a breath, reallygetting back to purpose. Why are
you in this business? Why areyou leading? What is it that you
see about this organizationthat has major opportunities? Yes,
(22:54):
this is just yet anotherobstacle challenge. Whether it's
a tariffs, whether it's aboutproduction costs, all these different
things. Cost management, beenhere before. Got it. But then you
got to look around and say,wait a minute. So the thing that
makes this place actually workare all the people here. How are
my people doing? Am I checkingin with them? Are my meetings more
(23:17):
than just about what did youdo? But also really include, so how
are you doing? Like, how areyou doing? How can I help you be
better at what you do? Whenpeople are scared, they don't need
you to make them more scared.They need you to as a leader to say,
you know what, let's controlwhat we can control. Right now what
we can control is what we'redoing here as a team. We're creating,
(23:39):
we're doing great things. Evenyou're the cost management side.
Let's get creative about that.What can we do? Bring out the best
in people. But the only wayyou get there is by actually seeing
them, seeing them in theirWholeness, seeing them in their dignity
and saying, I don't see you asa cog, I see you as a person. Let's
find some time actually carvedout to be human, to be empathetic,
(24:00):
to be caring, and those samepeople will work double X on your
behalf. And I think that'swhere I think the missing piece gets
to you, is that when we get sofocused and with uncertainty, fear,
the unraveling of things, wego to the amygdala brain and we're
just focused on fear. Got tostep back and focus on light and
joy and really about thriving.I'm not being Pollyanna, because
(24:24):
how we think about things ishow we create our world. And I say
to leaders, think about theopportunities, but most importantly,
realize that you're under theresponsibility of the caring for
people. Whether that's 3, 5,50, 500, 5,000, 50,000. There's a
call to action in that kind ofleadership, in this moment in time.
(24:46):
I call the three, three, useuncertainty, unpredictability, and
then also the unraveling. Allthree of them are happening at the
same time.
It's interesting because it'scounter. And I'm going to maybe put
it in my words a little bit,it's a little counterintuitive because
it seems like the harderthings get, the natural inclination
(25:06):
is to hold tighter. Right. Towhite knuckle it through, not to
take a step back and bringmore vision, strategy, breathe, you
know.
Yeah.
Into the, into the picture.And what you were saying, kind of
oddly, it reminds me a ton ofwhere we were in the middle of the
(25:28):
pandemic. And I know Cargillwas doing this and I can't remember
if other organizations weredoing this with this whole, like
in the zeitgeist, so to speak,was this whole like, how are you
doing? Really? Right. Kind ofmoment. I feel like, I feel like
a lot of companies were kindof having the same. The same question
was kind of permeating. Andit's just interesting for me to hear
(25:51):
that because it resonates withwhat I'm hearing and seeing in organizations
too, how this, the momentwe're in, while we're not all necessarily
shut into our homes or tryingto social distance while working
the shop floor, so to speak.Like, those were really hard times.
It's also a hard time now. Andso it's like, how do we remember
(26:15):
to kind of go back to some ofthose things that. And I don't know,
maybe, maybe I'm being overlygenerous, but like these things that
we ended up leaning into atthat time. It's like, maybe we never
should have. I don't know ifthat we did, but maybe not everybody
did, but maybe we never shouldhave stopped leaning into those things.
(26:38):
You know, it's just sointeresting. Well, I mean, as you're.
As you're speaking to thepandemic, the very, very real kind
of similarity here is the factthat we really felt like we were
outside, we would be indanger, we could actually die. And
(27:00):
I think what's also reallyimportant for us to address here
is the fact that the degree ofthe danger is not equally applied
in the United States rightnow. If you're a Latin X, just looking
Hispanic should put you indeep fear. Not because it's theory,
but because of the thousandsand thousands of people that have
(27:22):
been detained who are ofLatino, Latinx background. Right?
So they're living in that fearevery day. And I know people that
are living that fear. Itdoesn't matter their professions
when they're outside. Someonewho's a very senior person said,
I have my daughter carryingher US Passport just in case she
gets stopped. This is anAmerican Latina who's saying this
(27:45):
about her daughter. Okay? Wehave black individuals that understand
right now with what hashappened in the workforce, layoff
in the government, what hashappened in these cities. Again,
I am in these places speakingto people of those backgrounds that
understand that they areactually getting targeted for either
(28:06):
layoffs or potentially asdangerous people. So let's call it
for what it is, which is that,you know, the pandemic was a virus
that was going out there.Right now. There really are people
feeling disproportionate fear.Immigrants. Right. I'm a naturalized
citizen. I've been here sinceI was 6. I've been here for 53 years.
(28:30):
But did I go make sure I gotmy citizenship papers recently found
them where they were in thefile folder that I haven't looked
at for 20 years, just in casesomeone needs to prove the fact that
I'm actually an Americanbecause I'm Asian. I mean, it sounds
crazy. I've never done thatbefore, but I did. So I'm just saying
here, as much as there, forsome, life feels kind of like similar.
(28:54):
There are a lot ofmarginalized folks, lgbtq, that know
that if you're out there andpeople can tell that you are, you
may very well be under attack.And so now, why does this affect
leaders? People saying, well,that's just their personal lives.
Do we really think there's,like, a wall between what happens
in our Personal lives andwhat's happening in the world. And
(29:16):
then when we come to theoffice, like, we don't just go, like,
just turn this off and turn itback on and we'll just be like a
robot here. We have tounderstand that, that life is porous.
The world is porous. Sowhatever is happening outside in
the world is what people arebringing in. If we are seeing this
degree of a focus and target,I guarantee you leaders that you
(29:39):
have people who are women, whoare lgbtq, who are Latinx, black,
Asian, Muslim, others that arewondering, do you have my back? Do
you really have my back? Or.And especially if DEI is rolled back.
So you're telling me since2020 this has been all kind of a
performative sham. So now I'mgoing to really double click and
(30:03):
look at you and wonder. So areyou really for me or are you really
not? And so a couple of thingshappen there. Either you can decide
to lean in and help yourpeople understand that you want them
to thrive and you understandthat the challenges are out there
and you're here to createpsychological safety and safe space
(30:25):
for them. And whatever peopletalk about wokeism, wokeism happened
because there was so muchinequity out there. So I won't go
into that whole thing. But thereality here, right, is people have
been suffering and they'regreat leaders, take care of their
people and understand whatthat is. So I say to people, don't
(30:45):
run away from it, lean intoit. Like ask people, as you were
just saying during thepandemic, how are you comma really
and just stop and actuallylisten. And then if that gets you
too scared, focus on talkingabout their careers, talking about
how are you doing at work,what are you enjoying about it? How
can I help you grow more?Because you have what we have seen
(31:07):
in all of our programs withprofessionals, with women, professional
of color, when they're inwhere the programs where the managers
are involved, we have seen thebiggest uplift and opportunities
and growth when the managerhas spent quality time on a regular
basis sitting down with theirdirect report, actually simply listening
(31:30):
to what makes you motivated.What are you really interested in
doing right now, given thework that you have? How can I be
helpful? Because those threesimple questions shows people your
direct reports that you careabout them as people, as human beings.
That dignity, that sense ofbeing seen is what helps all of us
(31:53):
thrive. And so in a time whenyou know that certain particular
people are actually feelingheightened degree of fear, wow. A
great leader at this pointdoes move to them. Look at them and
say, how can I really takecare of you in this moment? That's
the opportunity for leaderstoday. Lean in.
(32:14):
So I feel like, you know, atleast when I first entered the workforce,
there was still this, like,hanging on of like, leave your personal
life at the door. Right? Andthen as I kind of got into leadership
development, which is maybebecause of the hippies that started,
you know, some of the workthat in the organizations that I
(32:34):
joined were very much callingfor. No, like, you need to get to
know your people. Right. Andso I feel like the. My career has
sort of come full circle to,gosh, people are really recognizing
that now, right. That we needto get to know each other on a personal
basis. I love where you wereleaning there, which is, I think
(32:55):
people go out and like, Googlestay interviews or Google, you know,
how to have a careerconversation. And you'll find five,
six, seven, eight questionsthat if you just. And you name some
of them already, just havethe, you know, ask these questions
and listen openly. And I thinkwhere people get stuck to the first
(33:15):
question we were kind of bothtalking about, which is like, how
are you doing? Really? Is Ifeel like leaders get a little hesitant
because they're like, well, Idon't know what to say in return
when someone's sharingsomething challenging or difficult
or that I don't have anyaccess to understanding. And it's
like, you know, I would justencourage leaders to, like, be in
(33:38):
the moment and don't worryabout that part. Right? Because probably
if you just said, wow, Ididn't know that, or I would not
have known that had you notshared that. Thank you for sharing.
That must be hard. That's allyou really need to say, right? You
know, that gives me a lot tothink about.
(33:58):
You know, I love what you'resaying because the actual part of
our program, because we doreally work with leaders in direct
reports or even across, youknow, where there are differences.
And understandably, whenthere's difference, people get nervous.
Like, if we can just say,that's okay to be nervous. Just,
it's okay. There's nothingwrong with us. Right? And then. And
(34:20):
then my point is, relax intothe nervousness and look into the
other person. Because we'reall the same in our love for. For.
For family members or lookingfor places of joy and having places
that we love going or thingsthat we love doing, that's kind of
a human thing. And so whenI've actually encouraged managers
(34:42):
and leaders to do that andsimply listen and say, so tell me
what you really enjoy duringthe weekend. And if you can start
first, it makes a lot easierfor direct report, by the way. And
then if they're sayingsomething that you don't really understand,
to your point, you know ourholistic listening model talks about.
So tell me more about that.I'm not aware of that. Can you just
tell me more about that? Weall love telling people about who
(35:05):
we are most of the time. Ifyou can just ask those. To your point,
those prompting questions,people tend to really focus on those
very positive things thatactually can connect because we naturally
seek to connect. We actuallyhad an example of a manager and direct
report completely differentethnicity, race, backgrounds, socioeconomic,
(35:27):
so on, so forth. And therereally was kind of nervous nervousness
among the manager. Like, whatdo I talk about now? First of all,
to your point, whether youlook at, for conversation starters,
as we call them, is there somebasic things put in front of you
and just ask those questions,it's amazing how easy actually it
is. You don't have to go makeit up on your own. And what was fascinating
as what the manager was sayingwas when I just started asking these
(35:49):
questions, questions, mydirect report just started answering
them, and I just didn'trealize how easy it actually was.
So we give them a guide, butonce they start conversing and having
a little bit of prep, itactually goes so easily. But you
know what the key thing herewe found is not just doing it once,
doing it consistently everysingle month so that it becomes a
(36:12):
habit. And it's taking aboutthree to four conversations before
that flow. That trust, that jene sais quoi thing about human beings
being connected tends toclick. And we've just seen it time
and again. And so it's really,really doable. And it's a lot easier
than what we think. Butleaders need to take. And managers
do need to take the lead here.
Yeah, I would add to that.Preferences change too. Right. And
(36:36):
so you can't just have acareer conversation every other year.
You know, I always say youshould. At least you should be having
a career conversation everysix months or so. You never know,
a life circumstance mightchange that completely changes plan,
so to speak, of what theywanted to do, or they just moved
into a role that they thoughtwas on the plan that they wanted
(36:57):
to be on. And now six monthsand they're like, this has nothing.
You know, I. This is not whatI want to be doing. Right. So I think
I like your point of, youknow, how do you keep this conversation
regular? Well, I'm looking atthe time. So I want to be respectful
of the time here. And I'mgonna, I'm gonna give us a violent
shove into the advice column.We could keep talking, but, you know,
(37:17):
I ask everybody to bring a fewpieces of advice. So we'll go to
the first one, which is, youknow, what's your. What's one piece
of advice you have directlyfor leaders out there?
My strong, strong beliefthat's also backed by data is the
fact that when leaders stepback and then deepen into their own
(37:37):
humanity, they do crazy,great, wild things. So when you go
into the office, rather thansaying, here's my list and let me
go, make sure, start havingmeetings at 8am all the way to 5pm
I say, actually, purposelydon't have a meeting until 8:30.
Spend a half hour on twothings. Why am I here really? And
(38:01):
who are the people in my teamthat I need to connect with? Just
start with those two verysimple questions because that'll
unfold into you actuallyconnecting with your people at this
very time where there isuncertainty, unpredictability, the
unraveling, to actually carveout time to get back to basics of
(38:25):
why you're here as a leader.And then two is to really recognize
as a leader, my job in orderto reach my outcomes is to help my
people thrive. Two things. I'mhere to make them be their best selves,
help them get there, and tocreate a real sense of belonging
(38:45):
for everyone. Right? Becausewhen we do that, we can actually
really, really, really buildout the business outcomes that we
already talked about kind ofearlier. So I think about this notion
of conversations that, thatconnect, right? And so think about
conversations that connect.What can you do in this moment? And,
and I have five really simplequestions, some of which we already
(39:05):
talked about. One is, how areyou? I'm going to take Kent's comment
really. Right? Andimportantly, listen, stay there for
those 15 seconds where youthink you're going to just implode,
because I cannot sit in thesilence because people need to have
time to figure out, like, whatdid you really mean by that? Right?
So ask a question and juststay silent and be calm. Right? 1,
(39:29):
2 is what are you working onright now that you're really excited
about, right? Let. Let yourdirect report lead you to where is
it they want to go. And again,you showing your sense of care. Three
is how can I enable you moremeaning, satisfaction, joy at work,
what can I do? Right? Again,that's saying you're in control,
(39:52):
they're in control. You makesomething happen for them, regardless
what's happening out in thelarger realm. And then again, hear
this thing about the careerand caring for them is when you think
about being your best self atwork, when you think about doing
work that would just keep yougoing even if you weren't paid, what
would that be? Right? You canfind some version of what that best
(40:13):
self actually means. And thenfinally is this is really, really
what, what our, ourparticipants have really valued.
When the manager says, what'sone thing I can do right now to help
you be better at what you do,to be happier, what you do to be
more productive, to learn,whatever that means, what's one thing
(40:33):
that I can do and really,really listen, take notes, go back,
and where the payoff happensis that when you follow up and say,
so Jill, Juanita, whomever,when we were talking, you're talking
about these three things. I'vethought about that and here's some
thoughts that I have aboutwhat we can do to move forward. Next
(40:55):
steps.
Wow.
Powerful, nice. Conversationsthat connect.
Conversations that connect.Love it. So as we think about senior
leaders out there, who aresupporting leaders, hr, who's supporting
leaders? What's your advicefor them on how to best support leaders?
So when I was doing a cascadeof people, focused diversity, focused
(41:18):
leadership, where there wasnew ways of connecting that many
leaders were not used todoing, kind of leaning into that
personal part. What I said tothe most senior leaders, C suite
and the level right below thatis what you measure is what your
people will do. What youmeasure is what your people will
(41:38):
do. Measure is alsoqualitative. So I asked, had them
every time they had the directteam meeting was to ask the question
having to do with people. Tellme about how you're doing with the
people. Connect. What are youdoing right now that you're seeing
(42:00):
successful in terms of makingsure that people are being seen,
the fact that you'reconnecting with them and, and my
point to them was if you askthat at every single meeting, guess
what? They're going to need toknow that when they get in there,
they're going to have to haveto answer for you. You don't have
to even tell them what to do.You just have to ask the questions.
(42:20):
That's what executive leaderssupposed to do. Ask the questions
that drive the behaviors andoutcomes that you seek to achieve.
I love it. That makes me thinkabout, you know, I always encourage
people who I'm working with,coaching or leadership development,
programming. I always say, youknow, find that person that you can
share what your goal is, youknow, maybe that's somebody who can
(42:41):
give you some feedback. Butonce you've shared that goal, now
you have to look at thisperson, you know, in the eye on a
regular basis and in turnempowering them to ask you have you
done X, Y or Z? Right. It justmade me think about. That's why I
love that.
Right.
It doesn't have to be. Wedon't have to create a scorecard
for it. We don't have to say,hey, you need to do X number. Simply
(43:05):
a senior leader around thetable saying who had, you know, who
here had a connect over thelast week. You know how that goes.
Absolutely.
You know, absolutely right.Everybody should have one. Cool.
Do better next week. Andwe're. I'm ask the same question.
Right. I like that. So aswe're kind of winding down here,
the very last pieces for thosewho want more Dreambridge partners
(43:29):
or Judy Shen Fan in theirlives, how do people get a hold of
you? What do you want peoplereaching out to you for?
So feel free to email me. It'sJudy J U D Y bridge partners.com
altogether so having a dream,right? Having a bridge and then having
(43:50):
partners doing it. Just thinkabout dreambridgepartners.com feel
free to email us or just lookon the website. There is also a contact
area there. Reason why I'msaying this is we know that as the
economy is likely to turn thatmore and more with the unpredictability,
the uncertainty and theunraveling that's happening, people
(44:12):
are looking for three thingsthat we're focusing on. One is what
we call three pathways. One isB how can we find center and calm.
So we're doing meditationpractices for only half an hour.
We're starting all in October.And the second is to connect again
conversations about how we canbe our best and addressing some of
(44:33):
the challenges that we're allfacing. And then our third one is
create is we're actuallyreally, really focusing on how to
build your brand, how toreally focus on what matters as you
get to the year end. And we'regoing to be doing more like career
transitioning as we know theirlayoffs are coming in. But a lot
of really programs targeted toindividuals to help them really be
their best selves. And thenthe other on the more organizational
(44:55):
side and leadership side, wecontinue to do our work on what we
call interconnected leadershipand interconnected teaming. And one
that's really focused about iswhen we really are connected and
when we really, really careand see each other. We together can
do more than we ever could onour own. And we, you know, seeing
that time again with ourclients. So we do a lot of that teaming,
(45:18):
leadership development work aswell. So the individual, the whole
and the teams and the systemslevel, too. So thank you for asking.
Yeah, I'm really excited justto give that a second plug back to
some of the work that you'regoing to be rolling out in October.
That's sort of direct to thepeople. Right. Which I love and can't
wait to see that take off. So,Judy, thank you so much for coming
(45:40):
on today. It's been apleasure, Kent.
I have so enjoyed it. I hopethat you'll ask me back again at
some point. So thank you.
I certainly will. Thank you.That brings us to the end of our
episode. Thanks for listening.I'd encourage you to head on over
to my website, Kent Coach, andstart a conversation with me there
or check out my promotionplaybook at Kent Coach Playbook.
(46:02):
Before you go on with yourday, I ask that you please take a
moment to leave a rating inour review. Wherever you listen to
podcasts, five stars. Thathelps put this podcast in front of
more eyes and ears. Until nexttime, take it easy.
Actually, simply listening towhat makes you motivated. What are
you really interested in doingright now, given the work that you
have? How can I be helpful?Because those three simple questions
shows people your directreports that you care about them
as people, as human beings.Right? That dignity, that sense of
(00:26):
being seen is what helps allof us thrive. And so it's in a time
when you know that certainparticular people are actually feeling
heightened degree of fear.Wow. A great leader at this point
does move to them, look atthem and say, how can I really take
care of you in this moment?That's the opportunity for leaders
(00:46):
today. Lean in.
Hi there and welcome to theStep up expert, Voices for Leadership
Growth. I'm your host, KentKnievel. Every week I talk to experts
who focus on helping leadersstep up their leadership game. If
you're new to the show, thenon whatever platform you're using,
I encourage you to subscribeso you never miss an episode. One
last thing. As a leadershipdevelopment consultant and executive
(01:09):
coach, I have a particularinterest in supporting recent internally
promoted leaders. If that'syou, or if you support a leader who
has been recently promoted, Iencourage you to visit my website
at Kent Coach Playbook anddownload a free copy of my 90 day
blueprint filled withpractical advice for you or the leader
you support in hitting theground running and truly stepping
up to their new leadershiplevel. Without further ado, on with
(01:32):
the show. Welcome, everybody.Today we are here to talk about the
importance of leadership whentimes are tough. And with me for
this conversation today isJudy Shen Feilerman. Judy and I met,
I want to say it was 20, 21,most likely when I was running the
sponsorship program atCargill, when I was working on the
(01:53):
DEI team there. And we broughtyou in to talk about owning your
own career when you're not apart of the sort of dominant corporate
demographic. Right. How doyou, let's just call it what it is.
How do you own your own careerwhen you're not a white male in,
you know, corporateenvironment? And you know as well
as you know, what can leadersdo to support people, too? So loved
(02:15):
what you brought to the tablethen. Wanted to have you on the podcast
here today for thisconversation. So thank you for being
here. I'd love for you tointroduce yourself more and want
to just hear a little bitabout your own career journey too,
before we really kick off.
Okay, Ken, thank you so muchfor having me here. I am so thrilled
to be here and to really havethis opportunity to talk about leadership
(02:37):
when I think right now itmatters most. And one of the look
at the background that I havehad is the American dream. Coming
here as an immigrant kid atthe age of six, growing up in New
York City with no English anda culture I had no idea about, and
then being able to kind ofloving to be with people and ideas
(03:02):
and loving to make thingshappen. Got into Harvard undergrad,
eventually Harvard BusinessSchool, and then into the corporate
world and consumer packagedgoods. Became the youngest executive
at Polaroid and theneventually coming into my own entrepreneurship
and my, my own firm in thelast 20 years. I talk about that
not because of like me, I talkabout that in terms of what I love
(03:25):
about this country now. What,what I love about the potentiality
all humans have that getexpressed in the US in a way that
we don't necessarily get inother countries. Right. I do think
that there is some things thatare being challenged right now in
that, in that particular area.But in, in that journey, what I have
seen for sure are two things.One that you just said is we make
(03:46):
our future. We, we need to ownwhat we want in our future. Especially
when we're not the powerdominant people. That's true in any,
you know, culture by the way,people worry about like are we saying
power dominant white men? Ohmy gosh. Is that like every culture
has a power dominant. Thequestion is if you're not the power
dominant group, how do youstill go live your dream and make
it happen? Right. And so I waslucky enough and worked my butt off
(04:09):
to get to those positions. Andso I've really dedicated the last
20 years focusing on twothings, best self and belonging to
how do all people have theopportunity to live their best selves?
Especially if you know thatover the history these are marginalized
individuals that didn't getsupport, think redline and access
(04:29):
and those kinds of things. Andthen having worked with amazing,
amazing white men who havebeen my mentors and my sponsors,
knowing that they're out thereto support people through their journeys
as great leaders. And they'realways great people who look to develop
people. And so I want to beout there and inspiring the ecosystem
of leaders to do that verything. Because at the end of the
(04:50):
day I'm a mathematical bottomsline kind of person, which is when
you do right by people, youalways do right by your business.
Yeah. So I forgot until wewere in our prerecording today that
you had a CPG background,which I think I didn't necessarily
have when we first met do now.So I love that we have that in common
But I think if I remembercorrectly, unlike other weirdos like
(05:15):
me, you don't come from the HRbackground. If I remember too right,
you came into the kind ofconsulting you're doing more or less
from the business side. I'dlove to just hear a little bit about
what were those beginnings andhow did that lead you into the kind
of consulting you're doing now?
Yeah, right. So, Right. Imean, I am the odd duck because my
(05:35):
background actually is onfront lines, P and L management.
And so in this kind of work,it's also where I think executives
find comfort with me because Italk their language, I've lived their
lives. Which is, which is kindof a fun thing, frankly for me because
I use a lot of peopleanalogies with business analogies.
Right. And so, but, but when Ileft B school when I was in corporate
(05:59):
America, had no idea aboutexecutive development or, or even
coaching and, and really wasjust learning about hr. Right. So,
so, so I got into thiscompletely by happenstance. It really
was because I left corporatereally kind of very openly because
I had major infertilityissues. And I decided to focus on
being a mother, which I neverthought about was that important
(06:20):
to me until you can't be amother. But also you're like, wow,
do I really want to be a mom?It's like, oh my gosh, yes. And so
when I had a chance potentialof never becoming a mom, I made the
really hard choice to, toleave corporate America at the very,
very height. I was theyoungest executive of Polaroid at
that point, decided to leaveto pursue motherhood. I have a 20
and 24 year old, so yay. And Ithink it was really out of that moment
(06:43):
when I had a colleague thatsaid, you know what, you've always
been a great coach to yourpeople. Want to come over to my firm
and do some strategydevelopment. And then eventually
I was like, what's thiscoaching thing? You know, and, and
then just kind of fell in lovewith the whole concept of helping
people develop. And I thinkfor someone like you that knows consumer
packaged goods, I lovedeveloping brands. Right. Because
(07:03):
brands make people happy.Right. Really good products make
people happy. You figure outwhat they cared about and you really
made sure you focus on theconsumer voice and you take some
of those really samefundamental caring moments, you move
it to human beings and it goesinto coaching.
Who are the people?
What do they care about? Howdo you make them the best they can
be? How do you make them, theorganization happy and meet their
(07:26):
goals? So it's been a Less ofa kind of record scratching thing
than people think. It'sactually been a really natural shift
over. And I love people and Ilove developing people.
Interesting. Yeah. What poppedin my head was the, like, there's
some basics to consulting thatare really just problem solving that
(07:47):
are sort of you're, you'redoing in any position whether or
not the title consultant isthere, which is, you know, it's like
the number one question thatsometimes people forget to stop and
ask is the like, wait, whatare we really trying to solve here?
Which is you would be doingthat in a line of business or in
an analyst role or as aconsultant anyway. Right. So there's
(08:08):
some of these just fundamentalhow you look at and solve problems
that are sort of titleagnostic. Right. You can, you can
bring those skills like you'vedone, you know, bring those skills
into consulting from thebusiness side, for example. I love
that.
Yeah. And I think one of thethings that, that, that has, that
I didn't realize wasconsidered quote, unquote, unique
(08:29):
was the fact that, you know,everything I did had to have an outcome
that was metrics oriented.That's how you run all. And so as
I was doing all thisdevelopment stuff, I had surveys
and outcomes and people like,oh, look at all this. All this is
like, of course you have tosurvey. Of course you have to have
an outcome. So, so I'm really,really, really focused on, you know,
being clear about objectivesto your point, having a journey and
(08:51):
then make sure the outcomethen meets the objectives. Right.
In a metrics oriented way. SoI love the fact that you talk about
how we really can bring in somany transferable skills or experiences
into anything that we do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anybody canrun an event. It's a question of,
you know, what are we actuallyhoping comes out of it. Right. And
having that conversation.Yeah, Bravo.
(09:12):
Same thing about leadership.Why are we all here, really?
Yeah, well, so let's talkabout that. Right. So I think, you
know, we had a very shortconversation, saved all the good
stuff for the podcast, Ipromise to our listeners here, which
is, you know, we're in amoment that I think, and I think
you were saying, right. Isreally a, a call for good leadership.
(09:34):
The need for good leadershiphas never been higher perhaps than
when times are tough. Right.And we're certainly in tough times
from many angles.
Right. I mean, I think wehave, we need a word that is a differentiator
(09:54):
because we keep on hearing theword unprecedented. The unprecedented
has become normal. And so ifthe unprecedented has become normal,
we are in surely unchartedterritory. Let's just call it for
what it is. And so whetheryou're talking about a leader in
nonprofit, in education, incorporate, in government, more important
(10:17):
than ever. Why the heck areyou there? Why are you there, leaders?
Are you there because you justwant a power? Are you there because
you want to just maximize theshare price so you can pocket all
of that and so you can have areally comfortable life, or are you
here actually to lead? I mean,this is, I mean as, as, as an executive
development coach. My point islike, why are you here as a leader?
(10:40):
It's okay. Just be aware ofwhy you actually chose to have this
job because the people see itanyway. I mean, this is what's always
so amazing for me is leadersthink somehow their true intent is
hidden from their people. Yourpeople always know. So if you're
transparent anyway, just speakit to yourself. And so, and the reason
(11:01):
I say that is more than everyour people are watching. Who are
you really for? And if it'sabout you, I'm okay, I'll take care
of me too. You know what'sgoing to happen in all this uncertainty,
all this unpredictability,it's the unraveling of the organization
(11:21):
and the engagement of people.And we all talk about wanting productivity,
innovation. Kiss that onegoodbye. I mean, sincerely, unless
you're a leader that issticking your neck out to take care
of your people today, you'rekind of done on your outcomes basis.
You can speak all you want,but for someone who is very, very
bottoms line oriented and Iknow that people's engagement, sense
(11:44):
of safety, sense of beingseen, ties to productivity and sales
and turnover and retention,all other stuff, it's just math.
The math to me is pretty clearthat we're in dire straits. But the
great leaders are out there.Use this time to maximize how you
lead because you will come outof all of this X times better outcomes
(12:08):
and people engage and loyaltyand retention than the leaders that
really were there just tosurvive. So I'm always about go thrive.
But thriving in this momenttakes so much courage because our
systems are actually unraveling.
Yeah, so many little thoughtsbubbled up for me here. So. Right.
I think to your point, and Iwas in some conversations over the
(12:31):
summer where some thoughtleaders were, I think were really
leaning in on, hey, if you'rein this to make gobs of money, great,
just own that. Right. Andthat, that's certainly a part of
it. Right. I mean, I think,you know, current state of society
is money is needed, right? Tofeed your family, house your family.
(12:52):
All that.
And money's not bad.
That's okay.
I love money, too.
But perhaps you need to followthe bouncing ball a little bit more
too, Especially if you're aleader or a business owner who has
team members around. If it'snot just you, then you need all these
other people to hit that goal.And how are you going to do that
(13:15):
in a way that has thatmultiplier effect, so to speak. Right.
And it makes me think of mytime working in the restaurant industry
where there were some reallyclear differences, even between sort
of corporately run storesversus franchise stores. Right? So
corporately run stores where,you know, a company might own hundreds
(13:36):
and the general manager ofthat restaurant, you know, is technically
a corporate employee, may ormay not be incented at all on. On
the performance of that storespecifically, versus Bob, who has
a friend. Let's just makesomething up here. Bob, who has a
franchise to subway down theblock, right? And that's Bob's business.
And he's much moreincentivized to have a highly engaged
(14:01):
staff, right. To know that,hey, the more engaged my staff is,
the better experience theygive guests, the more money guests
spe. Right. That there.There's this sort of level of ownership
that you need to take for yourbusiness. And thinking about then
how do you. How are youleading your people in a way to obtain
(14:25):
those objectives that help youobtain your goals? I just took us,
I think, maybe three timesaround the cul de sac on that one.
Did any of that land?
Well, I mean, totally, right?I mean, I think there is something
about ownership of any person,whether it's the ownership of the
leaders, the ownership I'vetaught business school graduates
(14:45):
and so on and so forth. And soat the end of the day is, again,
why are you here and whatoutcomes are you seeking? Right?
And I think one of theelements that when I work with managers
and leaders, and I said, andmy point here is, are you a leader
of people? Are you a managerof tasks? You can have people that
(15:08):
are amazing manager of tasksthat get things done, but they will
never inspire the people whoare working for them to reach farther
than what they're. Whatthey're told to do in a very literal
way. And that's the beauty ofleaders, differential managers. I
don't mean like managers likemanager levels, but manager of things,
right? And the great leaderscan do management of tasks, but then
(15:33):
somehow gets into the heart ofthe people, the minds of the people,
and get them to do the thingsthat they themselves, they themselves
knew they could, but they,maybe their team didn't. And the
whole thing about the espritde corps, what happens in, you know,
groups that just somehowgalvanize and you have so many, so
much of now research in orgbehavior is talking about that's
(15:56):
because people are listenedto, people feel safe. Again, this
notion of my work before mytitle and leaders that really are
affiliative, that aredemocratic, that are also visionary,
that when I can bring thepeople in and take them somewhere
that they can imagine, wherepeople can go is just beyond what
(16:17):
we can imagine. What's reallyfascinating is fear also works. Fear
actually works. Contractpeople make them do things, make
them scared. They'll beproductive as long as you keep that
pressure on them and they'llgo as far as you're going to push
them. But after that they'reburnout, tired, they're not as engaged,
(16:38):
so and so forth. So I'm notsaying that fear doesn't work, but
I'm like, if you can bringmore joy and dignity to the world,
why don't you just choose thatone? Like why don't you choose that
path as opposed to the path offear which is like everybody's upset,
getting sick, you know,everyone goes home a little more
contracted. Like come on,let's just choose a better path,
(17:01):
right? The happier path. Andhappiness does not mean the fact
that people are not going tobe engaged. And that's a misunderstanding
sometimes. But as you werejust saying is what is the motivation?
Why am I here and seeing thepeople not just as the means, but
also the end? And I thinkwhen, when you really treat the people
that are in your team as theend and be gracious and grateful
(17:23):
that they're the ones thatallow you to achieve your, your,
your actual larger objective,that should be a moment of humility,
right? To kind of see what,what you together created that you
as a leader without them couldnever create. So I think the leaders
that believe that they shouldget at this point, was it 600x versus
the lowest level person andreally believe that they themselves
(17:46):
are the reason why the companyis where it is. I think they actually
haven't really understood kindof operational analysis because if
you look at just fundamentallike operation analysis, take all
those hundreds of people out,the junior level people, you know,
the shoes can't make it run.So. So I think again the great leaders
(18:07):
understand that every levelperson at every part is what actually
allows the greater good andthe greater outcomes to happen. And
that's what I love doing ishelping them thrive.
So I just thinking back to apodcast guest I had on who I think
very openly said, I'm going tobutcher it. And it's so funny because
(18:28):
the day we're recording is theday that the podcast dropped, in
fact, and I just listened toit this morning. But it was something
like, we think about who's themost important person in the company
and leaders. It's easy forthem to think that it's. It's them,
right? That it's the leaders.But at the end of the day, you know,
depending on your business,it's the people who are selling or,
(18:51):
you know, I'll go back to therestaurant industry. It's the people
who are making the food anddelivering it to your table, right.
Like there, who are, who areactually servicing, you know, your
customer base, so to speak. SoI think it's interesting to go back
to, like, what, what reallymatters here. So I was coaching a
(19:11):
gentleman this spring, slashsummer and spring. And I think I
would say, like, it seemedlike every week that I talked to
this person, his hair was onfire. And it was on fire because
they were in a line of. In abusiness sector where I think we
were in a particular space ofwhat I was calling tariff roulette,
(19:35):
you know, in the spring. Andso it was just chaos for this guy.
It was just chaos. You know,every week they were. It was a sprint
of math exercises to, like,figure out how to balance the scales
in some way of what theprojected cost of, you know, goods
coming in were going to be andhow they needed to either go back
(19:57):
and negotiate or how thatneeded to flow, you know, to customers
and pricing. And so what youwere saying just had me thinking
about, like, that chaosmoment. And I think there's been
a lot of moments of chaos forleaders like that this year. So what
are some of the conversationsyou're having with leader leaders
around? Like, again, I thinkthere's many angles with, with which
(20:19):
how 2025 has been aninteresting and challenging and maybe
chaotic year. What are some ofthe conversations you're having with
people around how this hasbeen sort of that call to. That call
for leadership, so to speak.
Yeah. So, you know, I reallyhave the opportunity to really speak
(20:39):
with different constituencies,if you will, within organizations.
I work with C level leaders, Iwork with senior mid senior leaders,
I work with junior people. Andso I work with the, at the C level
largely, you know, white menand then other positions, women,
(21:02):
people of color, LGBTQ plus,because that's also a core part of
the focus of the firm and mypassion as, as an immigrant Chinese
American woman. And, and what,what, what I know for sure is happening
across is a degree of anxietyand fear about the self, about the
(21:22):
larger organization and justconstantly, just non stop shifting.
This is the whole thing aboutthe uncertainty, unpredictability,
right. That people like, youknow, so, so the, the what, what
happens when we are in thesemoments of uncertainty and unpredictability
is we tend to really start tohave this narrow focus on things
(21:45):
that we think we'recontrolling. So it tends to be the
left brain. The, the numbers,the production, the volume, the task
list, all those things arewhat we actually focus on when in
fact, rather than gettingreally, really micro focused and
myopic, we need to really pullback and get to the big picture here.
(22:09):
What I've been working withexecutive senior leaders who are
running, running, running is Iactually give them breathing space.
When are you actually havingsome quiet time? Because your job
is not to run. Your job isactually vision and be strategic.
Where's your space? And somany leaders are doing, doing, doing.
(22:31):
They're taking away from thework that they're meant to do, which
is a step back and watch itall and then figure out strategically,
where am I going to move. So Ithink for a lot of the senior leaders,
it's taking a breath, reallygetting back to purpose. Why are
you in this business? Why areyou leading? What is it that you
see about this organizationthat has major opportunities? Yes,
(22:54):
this is just yet anotherobstacle challenge. Whether it's
a tariffs, whether it's aboutproduction costs, all these different
things. Cost management, beenhere before. Got it. But then you
got to look around and say,wait a minute. So the thing that
makes this place actually workare all the people here. How are
my people doing? Am I checkingin with them? Are my meetings more
(23:17):
than just about what did youdo? But also really include, so how
are you doing? Like, how areyou doing? How can I help you be
better at what you do? Whenpeople are scared, they don't need
you to make them more scared.They need you to as a leader to say,
you know what, let's controlwhat we can control. Right now what
we can control is what we'redoing here as a team. We're creating,
(23:39):
we're doing great things. Evenyou're the cost management side.
Let's get creative about that.What can we do? Bring out the best
in people. But the only wayyou get there is by actually seeing
them, seeing them in theirWholeness, seeing them in their dignity
and saying, I don't see you asa cog, I see you as a person. Let's
find some time actually carvedout to be human, to be empathetic,
(24:00):
to be caring, and those samepeople will work double X on your
behalf. And I think that'swhere I think the missing piece gets
to you, is that when we get sofocused and with uncertainty, fear,
the unraveling of things, wego to the amygdala brain and we're
just focused on fear. Got tostep back and focus on light and
joy and really about thriving.I'm not being Pollyanna, because
(24:24):
how we think about things ishow we create our world. And I say
to leaders, think about theopportunities, but most importantly,
realize that you're under theresponsibility of the caring for
people. Whether that's 3, 5,50, 500, 5,000, 50,000. There's a
call to action in that kind ofleadership, in this moment in time.
(24:46):
I call the three, three, useuncertainty, unpredictability, and
then also the unraveling. Allthree of them are happening at the
same time.
It's interesting because it'scounter. And I'm going to maybe put
it in my words a little bit,it's a little counterintuitive because
it seems like the harderthings get, the natural inclination
(25:06):
is to hold tighter. Right. Towhite knuckle it through, not to
take a step back and bringmore vision, strategy, breathe, you
know.
Yeah.
Into the, into the picture.And what you were saying, kind of
oddly, it reminds me a ton ofwhere we were in the middle of the
(25:28):
pandemic. And I know Cargillwas doing this and I can't remember
if other organizations weredoing this with this whole, like
in the zeitgeist, so to speak,was this whole like, how are you
doing? Really? Right. Kind ofmoment. I feel like, I feel like
a lot of companies were kindof having the same. The same question
was kind of permeating. Andit's just interesting for me to hear
(25:51):
that because it resonates withwhat I'm hearing and seeing in organizations
too, how this, the momentwe're in, while we're not all necessarily
shut into our homes or tryingto social distance while working
the shop floor, so to speak.Like, those were really hard times.
It's also a hard time now. Andso it's like, how do we remember
(26:15):
to kind of go back to some ofthose things that. And I don't know,
maybe, maybe I'm being overlygenerous, but like these things that
we ended up leaning into atthat time. It's like, maybe we never
should have. I don't know ifthat we did, but maybe not everybody
did, but maybe we never shouldhave stopped leaning into those things.
(26:38):
You know, it's just sointeresting. Well, I mean, as you're.
As you're speaking to thepandemic, the very, very real kind
of similarity here is the factthat we really felt like we were
outside, we would be indanger, we could actually die. And
(27:00):
I think what's also reallyimportant for us to address here
is the fact that the degree ofthe danger is not equally applied
in the United States rightnow. If you're a Latin X, just looking
Hispanic should put you indeep fear. Not because it's theory,
but because of the thousandsand thousands of people that have
(27:22):
been detained who are ofLatino, Latinx background. Right?
So they're living in that fearevery day. And I know people that
are living that fear. Itdoesn't matter their professions
when they're outside. Someonewho's a very senior person said,
I have my daughter carryingher US Passport just in case she
gets stopped. This is anAmerican Latina who's saying this
(27:45):
about her daughter. Okay? Wehave black individuals that understand
right now with what hashappened in the workforce, layoff
in the government, what hashappened in these cities. Again,
I am in these places speakingto people of those backgrounds that
understand that they areactually getting targeted for either
(28:06):
layoffs or potentially asdangerous people. So let's call it
for what it is, which is that,you know, the pandemic was a virus
that was going out there.Right now. There really are people
feeling disproportionate fear.Immigrants. Right. I'm a naturalized
citizen. I've been here sinceI was 6. I've been here for 53 years.
(28:30):
But did I go make sure I gotmy citizenship papers recently found
them where they were in thefile folder that I haven't looked
at for 20 years, just in casesomeone needs to prove the fact that
I'm actually an Americanbecause I'm Asian. I mean, it sounds
crazy. I've never done thatbefore, but I did. So I'm just saying
here, as much as there, forsome, life feels kind of like similar.
(28:54):
There are a lot ofmarginalized folks, lgbtq, that know
that if you're out there andpeople can tell that you are, you
may very well be under attack.And so now, why does this affect
leaders? People saying, well,that's just their personal lives.
Do we really think there's,like, a wall between what happens
in our Personal lives andwhat's happening in the world. And
(29:16):
then when we come to theoffice, like, we don't just go, like,
just turn this off and turn itback on and we'll just be like a
robot here. We have tounderstand that, that life is porous.
The world is porous. Sowhatever is happening outside in
the world is what people arebringing in. If we are seeing this
degree of a focus and target,I guarantee you leaders that you
(29:39):
have people who are women, whoare lgbtq, who are Latinx, black,
Asian, Muslim, others that arewondering, do you have my back? Do
you really have my back? Or.And especially if DEI is rolled back.
So you're telling me since2020 this has been all kind of a
performative sham. So now I'mgoing to really double click and
(30:03):
look at you and wonder. So areyou really for me or are you really
not? And so a couple of thingshappen there. Either you can decide
to lean in and help yourpeople understand that you want them
to thrive and you understandthat the challenges are out there
and you're here to createpsychological safety and safe space
(30:25):
for them. And whatever peopletalk about wokeism, wokeism happened
because there was so muchinequity out there. So I won't go
into that whole thing. But thereality here, right, is people have
been suffering and they'regreat leaders, take care of their
people and understand whatthat is. So I say to people, don't
(30:45):
run away from it, lean intoit. Like ask people, as you were
just saying during thepandemic, how are you comma really
and just stop and actuallylisten. And then if that gets you
too scared, focus on talkingabout their careers, talking about
how are you doing at work,what are you enjoying about it? How
can I help you grow more?Because you have what we have seen
(31:07):
in all of our programs withprofessionals, with women, professional
of color, when they're inwhere the programs where the managers
are involved, we have seen thebiggest uplift and opportunities
and growth when the managerhas spent quality time on a regular
basis sitting down with theirdirect report, actually simply listening
(31:30):
to what makes you motivated.What are you really interested in
doing right now, given thework that you have? How can I be
helpful? Because those threesimple questions shows people your
direct reports that you careabout them as people, as human beings.
That dignity, that sense ofbeing seen is what helps all of us
(31:53):
thrive. And so in a time whenyou know that certain particular
people are actually feelingheightened degree of fear, wow. A
great leader at this pointdoes move to them. Look at them and
say, how can I really takecare of you in this moment? That's
the opportunity for leaderstoday. Lean in.
(32:14):
So I feel like, you know, atleast when I first entered the workforce,
there was still this, like,hanging on of like, leave your personal
life at the door. Right? Andthen as I kind of got into leadership
development, which is maybebecause of the hippies that started,
you know, some of the workthat in the organizations that I
(32:34):
joined were very much callingfor. No, like, you need to get to
know your people. Right. Andso I feel like the. My career has
sort of come full circle to,gosh, people are really recognizing
that now, right. That we needto get to know each other on a personal
basis. I love where you wereleaning there, which is, I think
(32:55):
people go out and like, Googlestay interviews or Google, you know,
how to have a careerconversation. And you'll find five,
six, seven, eight questionsthat if you just. And you name some
of them already, just havethe, you know, ask these questions
and listen openly. And I thinkwhere people get stuck to the first
(33:15):
question we were kind of bothtalking about, which is like, how
are you doing? Really? Is Ifeel like leaders get a little hesitant
because they're like, well, Idon't know what to say in return
when someone's sharingsomething challenging or difficult
or that I don't have anyaccess to understanding. And it's
like, you know, I would justencourage leaders to, like, be in
(33:38):
the moment and don't worryabout that part. Right? Because probably
if you just said, wow, Ididn't know that, or I would not
have known that had you notshared that. Thank you for sharing.
That must be hard. That's allyou really need to say, right? You
know, that gives me a lot tothink about.
(33:58):
You know, I love what you'resaying because the actual part of
our program, because we doreally work with leaders in direct
reports or even across, youknow, where there are differences.
And understandably, whenthere's difference, people get nervous.
Like, if we can just say,that's okay to be nervous. Just,
it's okay. There's nothingwrong with us. Right? And then. And
(34:20):
then my point is, relax intothe nervousness and look into the
other person. Because we'reall the same in our love for. For.
For family members or lookingfor places of joy and having places
that we love going or thingsthat we love doing, that's kind of
a human thing. And so whenI've actually encouraged managers
(34:42):
and leaders to do that andsimply listen and say, so tell me
what you really enjoy duringthe weekend. And if you can start
first, it makes a lot easierfor direct report, by the way. And
then if they're sayingsomething that you don't really understand,
to your point, you know ourholistic listening model talks about.
So tell me more about that.I'm not aware of that. Can you just
tell me more about that? Weall love telling people about who
(35:05):
we are most of the time. Ifyou can just ask those. To your point,
those prompting questions,people tend to really focus on those
very positive things thatactually can connect because we naturally
seek to connect. We actuallyhad an example of a manager and direct
report completely differentethnicity, race, backgrounds, socioeconomic,
(35:27):
so on, so forth. And therereally was kind of nervous nervousness
among the manager. Like, whatdo I talk about now? First of all,
to your point, whether youlook at, for conversation starters,
as we call them, is there somebasic things put in front of you
and just ask those questions,it's amazing how easy actually it
is. You don't have to go makeit up on your own. And what was fascinating
as what the manager was sayingwas when I just started asking these
(35:49):
questions, questions, mydirect report just started answering
them, and I just didn'trealize how easy it actually was.
So we give them a guide, butonce they start conversing and having
a little bit of prep, itactually goes so easily. But you
know what the key thing herewe found is not just doing it once,
doing it consistently everysingle month so that it becomes a
(36:12):
habit. And it's taking aboutthree to four conversations before
that flow. That trust, that jene sais quoi thing about human beings
being connected tends toclick. And we've just seen it time
and again. And so it's really,really doable. And it's a lot easier
than what we think. Butleaders need to take. And managers
do need to take the lead here.
Yeah, I would add to that.Preferences change too. Right. And
(36:36):
so you can't just have acareer conversation every other year.
You know, I always say youshould. At least you should be having
a career conversation everysix months or so. You never know,
a life circumstance mightchange that completely changes plan,
so to speak, of what theywanted to do, or they just moved
into a role that they thoughtwas on the plan that they wanted
(36:57):
to be on. And now six monthsand they're like, this has nothing.
You know, I. This is not whatI want to be doing. Right. So I think
I like your point of, youknow, how do you keep this conversation
regular? Well, I'm looking atthe time. So I want to be respectful
of the time here. And I'mgonna, I'm gonna give us a violent
shove into the advice column.We could keep talking, but, you know,
(37:17):
I ask everybody to bring a fewpieces of advice. So we'll go to
the first one, which is, youknow, what's your. What's one piece
of advice you have directlyfor leaders out there?
My strong, strong beliefthat's also backed by data is the
fact that when leaders stepback and then deepen into their own
(37:37):
humanity, they do crazy,great, wild things. So when you go
into the office, rather thansaying, here's my list and let me
go, make sure, start havingmeetings at 8am all the way to 5pm
I say, actually, purposelydon't have a meeting until 8:30.
Spend a half hour on twothings. Why am I here really? And
(38:01):
who are the people in my teamthat I need to connect with? Just
start with those two verysimple questions because that'll
unfold into you actuallyconnecting with your people at this
very time where there isuncertainty, unpredictability, the
unraveling, to actually carveout time to get back to basics of
(38:25):
why you're here as a leader.And then two is to really recognize
as a leader, my job in orderto reach my outcomes is to help my
people thrive. Two things. I'mhere to make them be their best selves,
help them get there, and tocreate a real sense of belonging
(38:45):
for everyone. Right? Becausewhen we do that, we can actually
really, really, really buildout the business outcomes that we
already talked about kind ofearlier. So I think about this notion
of conversations that, thatconnect, right? And so think about
conversations that connect.What can you do in this moment? And,
and I have five really simplequestions, some of which we already
(39:05):
talked about. One is, how areyou? I'm going to take Kent's comment
really. Right? Andimportantly, listen, stay there for
those 15 seconds where youthink you're going to just implode,
because I cannot sit in thesilence because people need to have
time to figure out, like, whatdid you really mean by that? Right?
So ask a question and juststay silent and be calm. Right? 1,
(39:29):
2 is what are you working onright now that you're really excited
about, right? Let. Let yourdirect report lead you to where is
it they want to go. And again,you showing your sense of care. Three
is how can I enable you moremeaning, satisfaction, joy at work,
what can I do? Right? Again,that's saying you're in control,
(39:52):
they're in control. You makesomething happen for them, regardless
what's happening out in thelarger realm. And then again, hear
this thing about the careerand caring for them is when you think
about being your best self atwork, when you think about doing
work that would just keep yougoing even if you weren't paid, what
would that be? Right? You canfind some version of what that best
(40:13):
self actually means. And thenfinally is this is really, really
what, what our, ourparticipants have really valued.
When the manager says, what'sone thing I can do right now to help
you be better at what you do,to be happier, what you do to be
more productive, to learn,whatever that means, what's one thing
(40:33):
that I can do and really,really listen, take notes, go back,
and where the payoff happensis that when you follow up and say,
so Jill, Juanita, whomever,when we were talking, you're talking
about these three things. I'vethought about that and here's some
thoughts that I have aboutwhat we can do to move forward. Next
(40:55):
steps.
Wow.
Powerful, nice. Conversationsthat connect.
Conversations that connect.Love it. So as we think about senior
leaders out there, who aresupporting leaders, hr, who's supporting
leaders? What's your advicefor them on how to best support leaders?
So when I was doing a cascadeof people, focused diversity, focused
(41:18):
leadership, where there wasnew ways of connecting that many
leaders were not used todoing, kind of leaning into that
personal part. What I said tothe most senior leaders, C suite
and the level right below thatis what you measure is what your
people will do. What youmeasure is what your people will
(41:38):
do. Measure is alsoqualitative. So I asked, had them
every time they had the directteam meeting was to ask the question
having to do with people. Tellme about how you're doing with the
people. Connect. What are youdoing right now that you're seeing
(42:00):
successful in terms of makingsure that people are being seen,
the fact that you'reconnecting with them and, and my
point to them was if you askthat at every single meeting, guess
what? They're going to need toknow that when they get in there,
they're going to have to haveto answer for you. You don't have
to even tell them what to do.You just have to ask the questions.
(42:20):
That's what executive leaderssupposed to do. Ask the questions
that drive the behaviors andoutcomes that you seek to achieve.
I love it. That makes me thinkabout, you know, I always encourage
people who I'm working with,coaching or leadership development,
programming. I always say, youknow, find that person that you can
share what your goal is, youknow, maybe that's somebody who can
(42:41):
give you some feedback. Butonce you've shared that goal, now
you have to look at thisperson, you know, in the eye on a
regular basis and in turnempowering them to ask you have you
done X, Y or Z? Right. It justmade me think about. That's why I
love that.
Right.
It doesn't have to be. Wedon't have to create a scorecard
for it. We don't have to say,hey, you need to do X number. Simply
(43:05):
a senior leader around thetable saying who had, you know, who
here had a connect over thelast week. You know how that goes.
Absolutely.
You know, absolutely right.Everybody should have one. Cool.
Do better next week. Andwe're. I'm ask the same question.
Right. I like that. So aswe're kind of winding down here,
the very last pieces for thosewho want more Dreambridge partners
(43:29):
or Judy Shen Fan in theirlives, how do people get a hold of
you? What do you want peoplereaching out to you for?
So feel free to email me. It'sJudy J U D Y bridge partners.com
altogether so having a dream,right? Having a bridge and then having
(43:50):
partners doing it. Just thinkabout dreambridgepartners.com feel
free to email us or just lookon the website. There is also a contact
area there. Reason why I'msaying this is we know that as the
economy is likely to turn thatmore and more with the unpredictability,
the uncertainty and theunraveling that's happening, people
(44:12):
are looking for three thingsthat we're focusing on. One is what
we call three pathways. One isB how can we find center and calm.
So we're doing meditationpractices for only half an hour.
We're starting all in October.And the second is to connect again
conversations about how we canbe our best and addressing some of
(44:33):
the challenges that we're allfacing. And then our third one is
create is we're actuallyreally, really focusing on how to
build your brand, how toreally focus on what matters as you
get to the year end. And we'regoing to be doing more like career
transitioning as we know theirlayoffs are coming in. But a lot
of really programs targeted toindividuals to help them really be
their best selves. And thenthe other on the more organizational
(44:55):
side and leadership side, wecontinue to do our work on what we
call interconnected leadershipand interconnected teaming. And one
that's really focused about iswhen we really are connected and
when we really, really careand see each other. We together can
do more than we ever could onour own. And we, you know, seeing
that time again with ourclients. So we do a lot of that teaming,
(45:18):
leadership development work aswell. So the individual, the whole
and the teams and the systemslevel, too. So thank you for asking.
Yeah, I'm really excited justto give that a second plug back to
some of the work that you'regoing to be rolling out in October.
That's sort of direct to thepeople. Right. Which I love and can't
wait to see that take off. So,Judy, thank you so much for coming
(45:40):
on today. It's been apleasure, Kent.
I have so enjoyed it. I hopethat you'll ask me back again at
some point. So thank you.
I certainly will. Thank you.That brings us to the end of our
episode. Thanks for listening.I'd encourage you to head on over
to my website, Kent Coach, andstart a conversation with me there
or check out my promotionplaybook at Kent Coach Playbook.
(46:02):
Before you go on with yourday, I ask that you please take a
moment to leave a rating inour review. Wherever you listen to
podcasts, five stars. Thathelps put this podcast in front of
more eyes and ears. Until nexttime, take it easy.
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