August 1, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, I am joined with The Vanessa Reiser, survivor, therapist, mom, author, ironman, and narcissistic/cult expert. We delve into how victims can escape, become survivors and then learn to thrive despite what their exes do or don't do. Vanessa talks about her own personal story and how she climbed out from the bottom she found herself in and rebuilt her life from the ground up. She partners her own personal experience with her professional expertise on narcissistic abuse to provide us with tips, tricks, tools, and strategies for all those who find themselves in abusive relationships, and those who have escaped them.
If you've ever wondered how to build back up, how to heal, how to thrive and not merely survive, this conversation is for you.
You can find Vanessa on IG @vanessareiserlcsw or at www.tellatherapist.net
Visit: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com to learn how to work with me.
Grab my free parenting resource:
https://chantalcontorinescoaching.myflodesk.com/free-how-to-guide
Join my monthly membership for protective parents: https://chantalcontorinescoaching.com/monthly-membership
Follow me on Instagram: @chantal.contorines.coaching
This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal advice.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome everybody to TheSurvivor's Playbook with Chantal
Contorines, your host, this isthe podcast for every survivor
of abuse.
If abusers can have a playbook,then why can't survivors so that
you can actually live a lifethat you love despite what your
abuser does or doesn't do?
And today, I'm so excited tohave Vanessa Reiser on, she is a
(00:23):
woman with many hats.
She's a therapist, she's asurvivor.
She's a cult and narcissisticabuse expert.
She's an author, a mom, she's arunner.
She, you probably have seen herin the news, she runs every year
in her wedding dress acrossstates.
She's a powerhouse.
So thank you so much, Vanessa,for being on today and taking
time out of your busy life tohelp people live lives that they
(00:45):
love.
Thank you so much.
On that note, how did you getinto this?
How did you become an expert inthis field?
Yes, great question.
I attended the University ofSouthern California and became a
social worker, and whilst inmaster's program, never learned
anything about personalitydisorders So I have this$115,000
(01:09):
brain from one of the greatestinstitutions, and yet had no
idea what was happening to mewhen I went through it myself,
even as a therapist.
And that's really important forpeople to understand.
There's this erroneous beliefthat only uneducated people who
don't know about this fall prey.
But they're predators, abusersare predators and they will go
(01:31):
after everybody.
And the higher you are, the moreeducated you are, the more
beautiful, charismatic, goodlooking you are, the bigger the
prey.
It's wow, I've actually snaggedthis person.
So anybody is susceptible toabuse.
That's the overarching thing.
It's not just ignorant people.
It's not just people you knowwho low iq.
It can happen to anybody, and Ireally think that's important.
(01:51):
We talk a lot about women inthese environments.
But in the NXIVM cult, we hadMark Vicente who was victimized.
We saw Kevin Spacey's victimsall be men.
We saw P Diddy's, victims ofcoercive control also be some
men.
And I think that's important tohighlight because I think that's
(02:12):
when we'll see the change iswhen men come out and discuss,
how they themselves have beenvictimized by a narcissist, a
sociopath, or a psychopath.
But yes, that is absolutelycorrect.
They cast out a bunch of lines,and if you don't have good
boundaries, and they can exploitanything that you're gonna give
them, including sex, housing,fame, money, any, anything at
(02:35):
all cooking they will exploitany value added on their behalf.
So it really doesn't, it runsthe gamut.
Nobody is immune from mindcontrol.
And that's really importantbecause, and you touched upon
something because I work withboth men and women because abuse
affects both.
Abusers are men and they'rewomen.
There are people who you knoware famous.
(02:56):
They're people who are notfamous.
They're people next door.
They can be your priest.
They can be your lawyer.
They can be your doctor.
They can be your teacher.
They come in every shape andform, and not every abuser is
obvious.
There are.
I think we've come a long way insociety's understanding a little
bit more about abuse, but notevery abuser is charismatic, is
gregarious.
Some are very covert, some arevery vulnerable.
(03:17):
Some come across as really shy.
And, self-deprecating.
So they come in all shapes andsizes, genders, races, cultures
socioeconomic statuses.
You have some people who arevery high level and some people
who are very low level.
So you were in school, educatingyourself while simultaneously
being abused.
(03:38):
I actually was out of schoolalready, so I did graduate, I
graduated from USC and wasworking at the Jewish Board in
the Bronx, which was anoutpatient mental health clinic.
And I absolutely loved it.
And then I did fall into thisrelationship where I found
myself rather confused,isolated.
(04:00):
Just lots of gaslighting.
My energy was just totallyenveloped, long text messages,
being flown all over the world.
And I lost myself.
And by the time I woke up fromthis stupor, it was almost too
late.
I was really.
(04:21):
Homeless, jobless friendless.
It was really awful.
It was a complete nuclearfallout.
And that is what abusers do, isthey isolate you and you they
create this dependency on them,as either, the only person who
is there for them, the onlyperson that you have a support.
And if you aren't fullyisolated.
It's typically their supportsystem So their friends, their
(04:41):
family and financial abuse issuch an easy way to abuse
somebody if you take away their,ability to actually make money
leaving is so much harder whenyou don't have access to money.
Yeah.
And I was no different thananyone else in that I found
myself in that cycle of abuseof.
The makeup session, the fallout,the, sorry, the makeup session,
the tension building, and thenthe fallout, and it went with
(05:02):
this rhythm.
It seemed to be like every 14days there would be a fallout,
and then we would have this kindof like makeup session and then
a tension building and thefallout, and it was so dizzying
and I would slip further andfurther from myself with each
fallout, because I would look atmyself in the mirror.
I remember doing this in thebathroom and thinking who are
(05:22):
you?
Because I began to make biggerconcessions and more excuses as
time went on.
And he would turn up the dialbecause he was probably watching
what I was tolerating.
And I couldn't believe what Iwas tolerating.
It was blowing me away and Ireally did begin to dig my heels
in deeper with him.
Believe it or not.
And so it felt almost like ahole that I needed to climb out
(05:44):
of when I finally got out of it.
And it took me two years solidof just licking wounds,
studying, stepping into mypower.
Beginning to radically self-lovemyself again.
A lot of people who are incults, by the way, they have a
harder time because they don'thave that sense of self.
I was at least able to go findthat girl that I was prior,
(06:05):
which is really important.
But yeah, it was.
It was so slow moving, even inmy case, which was pretty fast.
'Cause it was a shortrelationship.
It was under two years.
But it was still so slow that Icouldn't see, the death by a
million cuts.
It was just happening slowly.
And when you're in it, it's sohard to see.
You can't see the doors for thetrees.
(06:27):
I can see each individual thingif they're micro cuts.
Death by a million cuts.
If they're micro cuts, you'relike, oh you can justify it.
And as abuse progresses youbecome better at justifying the
abuse, oh, they had a stressfulday at work, or they just lost
this contract, whatever it is.
If I just did this, oh, I mustbe part of the, the actual
problem.
They treat other people betterthan they treat me, so I'm
obviously at fault.
(06:47):
So if I just did this better, ifI just made their steak, the way
they liked it today, or cleanthe house or whatever it is
maybe I wouldn't haveexperienced what I just
experienced.
Yeah.
And they're not always badAbusers are very adept at giving
you just enough hope so youstay.
It's oh, that's the person thatI fell in love with right there.
And it feels euphoric becauseyou've been starving for any
(07:08):
affection and attention.
So when they finally do give youpositive reinforcement, positive
attention and affection oh, thatfeels beautiful.
And it's like the sun's shiningon you and everything, and
they're, very good.
By the time you get into thistype of relationship, they've
been practicing for years.
Every relationship they becomemaster manipulators.
And most people are unaware thatthis is something that they can
(07:28):
be.
Yeah.
And then it feels like a drugaddiction.
So you're looking for that high,you're looking for that love
bomb.
You're looking for that makeupsession again, because it's a
fix basically.
You're getting a dopamine hit inthat moment.
Yeah.
And that's the, that is thetrauma bond, you are literally
Exactly.
Physically addicted to the highsand the lows, like your body, is
looking for that next hit.
(07:50):
You become like a drug addict.
And it's unbeknownst to you, youhaven't chosen this, but the
very cycle of abuse and, thehighs and the lows creates whole
chemical shit storm in yourbody.
That's perfect.
Exactly.
They're very well said French.
That's why we become addicted.
And we don't realize this, andthis is why leaving is so hard
(08:11):
too, because, and if they lovebomb you back, they, future fake
and all these promises.
If you don't have a secureenough base from which to be
able to resist so many people goback.
Especially if you don't have thesupport, familial support,
community support, expertsupport, and or you're lacking
resources, be it money orhousing.
They starve you back or they,praise you back.
(08:33):
So you escaped, you left.
You built yourself back up.
What are some of the things thatyou did, because when you leave
this, you are not feeling greatabout yourself.
You're not feeling hopeful oroptimistic, you're feeling very
confused.
It's very disorientingespecially as you start to peel
back the layers and trulyunderstand what you've
experienced Healing isn'tlinear.
(08:55):
Yeah.
I remember thinking at firstthat I was a narcissist because
we had become so codependent andenmeshed.
That it was hard for me todelineate who I was from this
entity.
And I was thinking to myself,maybe I'm the problem.
One of the things that saved mein that moment was I knew that I
was a lot of things, but I wasnever a liar.
Like I was always like anauthentic person.
(09:17):
To a fault.
People who know me, even myclients, I curse and I'm just
this real gritty person andnobody would ever accuse me of
being like a fraud.
So that was.
That was very clarifying for me.
And then I began to connect withmy friends that were laughed.
A lot of my friends did.
They abandoned me, which wasreally hard.
And I began to connect withthose people and just one foot
(09:40):
in front of the other, I startedto love myself again.
I started to put the pieces backtogether.
I studied it.
Beyond.
I just was so curious, like howcould people be this evil?
I didn't know, I grew up in likethe Sesame Street world of I
thought everybody thought theway I did, that they were, as a
matter of fact, as a socialworker, for many years I was
like, everybody can berehabilitated.
(10:02):
Yay.
This kind of naive liberal, andafter I went through this, I was
like, I'm getting a gun.
People are evil.
This is crazy.
It really turned everything forsomeone like me on its head, and
I really struggled with that.
It was a big thing, and I putthat as the first line in my
book actually.
You really have to unhand thisconcept that people think
similarly.
They don't.
Yeah, and that was a big pill.
(10:23):
And that's the truth.
Liars believe that everybody'slying.
Cheaters believe thateverybody's cheating, which is
typically this type ofpersonality.
Whatever they project onto youbecause they truly believe that
everybody thinks as disorderlyas they do.
And honest people tend tobelieve that people are honest.
Kind.
People tend to believe thatpeople are genuinely kind.
And you have to understand that.
And I.
I'm a pathological positiveperson, but I do since this
(10:45):
since my eyes have been openpersonally as well as
professionally, I've come torealize that a lot of people are
wonderful.
There's a lot of good people whoare hurting and do things, but
their intent is good, butthere's also this undercurrent,
this underbelly of people andthey're they're truly monsters.
And as a positive person, it'shard for me to actually say
that, but I really don't believethat there's hope for these
people of ever changing.
(11:06):
We, we have to let go of, oh,they might change, yeah, no.
They're so ingrained in theirdisordered behavior.
Especially when they're adults,like they're 40 and they're 50,
it would be very unlikely forthem to ever do the hard work.
Yeah.
And my sense is that they likethe way they are in their minds,
they're winning, and we arecertainly not doing enough to
cultivate empathy in oursocieties right now.
(11:27):
So they are in some wayswinning.
One out of four CEOs as apsychopath directly, they're not
entirely wrong.
They have a winning streak ofsorts.
Unfortunately.
And so they have no interest inchanging No for them.
They get what they want.
The end of day buy a hookup bycrook, which is the average
person is not willing to gothose lengths to get what they
would like.
I would like to have lots ofmoney, but I'm not willing to
(11:48):
lie, steal, and cheat to getthat money.
Because at the end of the day,if I've hurt somebody, if I've
taken their retirement to buildmy own retirement, then I have
an issue.
There's like an ethical, alsolike the joke is on them because
that's not what real riches are.
Real riches are the connectionsthat you have with people.
Yeah.
Real riches are, beautifulsymphonies and music and nature
and all the things that theyseek to destroy for their own
(12:10):
gain.
That's where the riches are.
And so the laugh really is onthem.
They don't know that.
Yeah.
Because there's so tunnelvisions thinking about, how to
find the next nickel, butreally.
As somebody who's 52 years oldand has seen money and has seen
no money I would rather be inthe middle of the projects
listening to gospel music andhaving a grilled cheese than
(12:34):
ever live in that dark housewith that terrible energy ever
again.
So the laugh is really on them.
They think they're winning.
Winning.
Yeah.
And that's cute and fascinating,but like I said, the real riches
are elsewhere.
And that is really, I always,and I've posted about this
before and I've discussed thiswith clients and my members, is
they feel like they're winning,but they are never winning at
life.
You can strip me down, you cantake all my money, and I'll
(12:56):
always find happiness.
And that's truly, I'm actuallywinning at life.
Because they're nothing withouttheir enablers and they're
nothing without.
Money.
That truly is the identity.
Whereas the average person, youand I for instance, take that
all away from us and we'll stillbe able to find happiness.
It's in the simple things.
It's in like a blue sky and likesun and friends coming over and
(13:17):
good music and good food andconnection.
They're always chasing the highthat we naturally get.
'cause people don't genuinelylike them for who they are.
They fall for who they pretendto be.
Whereas we.
You fall for people who you knoware genuine and they fall for
you because, she's she'sintelligent and she's kind and
she's hardworking.
So we actually are winning atlife.
(13:38):
They might feel like, and we canlet them feel that.
That's just great.
You just, you win at life inyour own little way.
But they're always unhappy.
They had never get like fullhappiness.
They'll, that will always evadethem.
Never.
It's like love, like they neverexperience real, genuine love.
Which true.
I always say there's like a holein the bucket.
They can never get enough.
Yeah.
Cheeseburgers, cocaine, sex.
(13:59):
They're constantly trying tofeel something and to get a
dopamine kick and Yeah, becausethey're vacant.
Yeah.
Barren creatures.
And when you think of it thatway.
You can just keep your millions,you can keep whatever you think
is fantastic, but you are alwaysrunning, you're always trying to
chase and also avoid yourself,right?
(14:19):
So much of their addictions,'cause they're all addicts of
some sort, right?
They're always trying to outrunwho they are and stay two steps
ahead of, the reality of whothey are.
So you've created this life foryourself.
Outside of this vortex of abusedo you have any tips or tricks
or tools for people navigatingthis who are perhaps thinking of
(14:41):
leaving or have left and arelike, I just, I don't know how
to build a life outside of this.
I don't know how to climb out ofthis hole that I'm currently in.
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, it is abig hole and usually you may
have to, hold your nose and jumpin the water or jump off the
cliff or rip the bandaid offbecause.
(15:02):
You gotta get outta there.
There are obviously reasons whypeople stay, including finances
and children, and I honor that.
But by and large, my advice isto run for your life to the
extent that you can, and thenpick up the pieces later in
terms of divorce, co-parenting,et cetera.
And it's messy.
But you will have moments likewhen I got back into my little
(15:24):
house.
I remember having a fist fightwith my curling irons because I
was now out of the mansion and Iwas into my tiny little ranch
and I was thrilled.
I was like, I'd much rather, asI mentioned, be, in the middle
of the projects there wasnothing that could.
Seduce me back.
So you will have moments of justpeace, like it just washes over
(15:44):
you that you don't have to walkon eggshells.
It almost feels like getting outof prison.
It feels like getting out ofjail.
I felt like I won the lotterywhen I got out of that
relationship.
And then there were the momentsof absolute hellish court
experiences and stalking and allthe things that I had to endure
and many endure.
But there were still thosemoments where I could have.
(16:07):
The healing and it's not linear.
It's three steps forward, twosteps back, five steps forward,
nine steps back.
It's really jagged, this healingprocess.
It's basically a trauma, sothere's gonna be a lot of
flashbacks and there's gonna bea lot of nightmares, and there's
gonna be a lot of ruminating andconfusion for a very long time.
If you don't do the work, it'dprobably take about four years
(16:28):
to manage this if you do thework, maybe two, and I know that
feels really overwhelming forsome people, but if you don't do
anything and you blink your eyesand it's 10 years fast forward
the ghost of Christmas future,and you've done nothing, you
will.
Begin to decompensate and to theextent that you could die
because it's gonna affect yourimmune system.
You're gonna have high cortisollevels.
(16:49):
So I always recommend leavingand even though it sucks to do I
think hide your preciousbelongings, hide money, start to
stash things away.
Your everything is going to bedestroyed by the narcissists on
the way out.
They don't generally mediate orplay nice.
They have to win and they can bevery sadistic.
So there's a lot of ways thatyou have to be mindful, but
overall, generally I advisegetting out of there.
(17:12):
Yeah.
And everybody does.
So at their own time, you areyour own personal.
Best advocate, and you also knowyour own story, right?
So pick a time that works foryou.
There's never gonna be an idealtime.
There's always just there'snever like an ideal time to have
a baby or get divorced or evenget married, but there's always
I could, save up a little bitmore.
Or, I could have a bigger housebefore we start a family, or
(17:32):
there's never an ideal time.
But do your due diligence.
If safety is an issue, obviouslyleave ASAP and then go back and
do whatever you need to do.
But if safety isn't an issue,it's not something on your radar
right now.
Create an exit strategy so thatyou, because most people, it
takes about seven times wherepeople are able to leave
(17:52):
successfully, right?
And that's because they leaveand then are starved back, or
they're future faked back in tothe relationship.
So if you are strategic aboutyour leaving.
Then hopefully you're able toactually stay gone.
Now you rip the bandage, you dothe hard thing, you create the
ultimate boundary.
You don't have to change.
But I can no longer put up withthis abusive behavior.
So you do, you boo, and I'm justgonna extricate myself and I'm
(18:14):
gonna create a life and it'sgonna be hard.
These people, abuse does not endjust because of relationship
ends.
And this is also the erroneousbelief that we have.
When people split ways, egosmight be bruised, you lick your
ego and then you move on.
An abuser really feels investedin you and they feel like they
own you.
So they've invested two years,20 years, whatever it is, you
(18:35):
are their personal, belongingand how dare you try to leave?
Because abuse is always aboutpower and control and it doesn't
end just because of relationshipDoes.
This isn't just No, as a matterof fact, it gets worse.
Post-separation abuse is a veryreal thing.
Abuse just morphs.
And if you have children withthis person, then it, they start
to use your children and thesystem.
(18:55):
So you become, everythingbecomes weaponized.
They can and will weaponizeeverything.
Having said that though, theonly al other alternative is a
stake.
And that's really not along-term alternative, as you
said.
Long-term, prolonged stress andyour entire relationship is
stressful.
Even when there's good times,you know at any moment in the
back of your mind when the goodstuff is happening.
(19:16):
This might, come to an end andit's gonna come to an end.
And it could be right now, itcould be in a day, it could be
in a week.
But I know that this istemporary.
So even in the good times,you're still apprehensive
because even though you don'tunderstand the cycle of abuse
just yet,'cause you're in it,you know it's gonna cycle back
to something that you do or sayor don't do or don't say is
going to trigger them.
So your entire relationship isstressful.
(19:37):
You're not supposed to liveunder constant chronic stress
that does damage from like acellular level.
Yeah.
And so really escaping is youronly option.
Yeah.
We, I learned in dialecticalbehavioral therapy that when you
have a baseline.
Of your mood or yourdisposition, and anytime you go
up or feel happy, you actuallydon't like it.
(20:00):
Human beings don't like anytimethey move away from baseline, so
whether it's up or down, thegoal is to stay as close to
baseline and as calm.
As you can.
And so this idea that you wouldfeel elated, doesn't feel
comfortable because you knowthat you're gonna, it's gonna
not last forever.
And so yeah, it really does anumber on you and then a
(20:21):
narcissist is watching you.
Manage their abuse too.
So they tend to have this dial,oh, you tolerated that.
How about this?
And it's a slow turn of thedial.
And so by the time, 10 years hascome and on and you look in the
rear of your mirror, you reallydo not recognize yourself
because of what you've endured.
So it's a slow thing, but thatdial does turn up.
(20:42):
They're watching you.
Oh you manage that.
How about this now?
Yeah.
Because they constantly need anew hit.
So they, yeah.
What used to make you squirm andmake you uncomfortable, you now
tolerate so it's now just becomelike your baseline.
And these people are constantlylooking for a reaction from you.
So if you're no longer reacting,'cause it's just your norm, to
get up in the morning and becriticized, now they're gonna
amplify that.
And it's that's exactly right.
(21:02):
That, that saying, where you putlike a frog in a pot of water
and you slowly turn up the heat,it won't know that it's being
boiled alive until it's toolate.
That's exactly what happens tous.
Yeah.
We are the frog and the pot ofwater and the abuse slowly
cranks up and revs up and rampsup.
And they test your boundariestoo.
Oh, she, he or she, toleratedthat well.
How about this?
For them it's a game.
(21:23):
Yeah.
I've had clients that have beensmart enough to leave before
having children, and it is thevictory of my life.
I can't even tell you the.
Thrill of watching somebody justrun for run, just get out.
And then you're like, you didit.
Because they don't know, as Imentioned, that this idea of
(21:43):
trying to co-parent with amonster, how that will just
destroy your entire being.
So you know, the victory is ifyou're listening to this and you
don't have kids with thesepeople and you know that this is
a narcissist, just trust melike.
You are winning.
You're the victor.
It's your you have this.
You're like, it reminds mesometimes of a bird in a cage,
but the cage door is open.
(22:04):
Yes, it's fly.
You're free.
But yeah, it's, maddening towatch from the outside in you,
you see somebody being abused.
That there's an escape, but theydon't see the escape, right?
Yeah.
And you just hit the nail on thehead.
They have children for manyreasons.
One is a constant source ofsupply, children constantly try
to get their parents to lovethem, by any means necessary.
It also allows them to blend inwith society.
(22:25):
People who have childrentypically are regarded as,
better people by society.
The two parents picket fence andthree children and a dog.
That's oh, okay, I'm gonna trustyou with my life savings because
you have children on your deskright in this frame.
And also it tethers the otherperson to this person for at
least 18 years.
It's the ultimate shackle.
(22:45):
Once you have children with thisperson, it is a game changer
because they will absolutely usethe children to hurt you.
Because if you're a lovingperson, how do you hurt a person
who loves their childrenunconditionally?
You hurt the children.
Or you go after the children'sattachment to this person.
Yeah.
So if you can pay heed to whatVanessa has just said, if you
are thinking about havingchildren you need to run right,
(23:06):
because you can still live alife.
I work with a lot of parents whoare protective parents who have
this as a counter parent.
And they can still create lives,but it's so much work and it's
constant trauma.
Like you're constantly being,blindsided by the level that
they will stoop to hurt you.
That's right.
So you can avoid that.
Avoidance is the most ideal,which is also why we talk about
(23:27):
this a lot, because if you caneven just avoid this type of
personality altogether in yourlife, be it, relationship or
romantic, or you'll be so muchbetter off because they
literally drain you from theinside out.
That's true.
So thank you so much, Vanessa,for coming on from imparting
your personal as well as yourprofessional knowledge on
people.
You're not only a survivor, butyou're also an expert.
(23:49):
When you combine those twotogether, it's really powerful
for people to see, okay, she didthat, right?
She came from the bottom.
And, she's created a life thatshe loves despite, and you
still, the abuse still is there.
It can still rear its ugly headif he chooses to.
If he's bored or he doesn't havea hit, so it's like not ending,
(24:10):
but you've been able tocompartmentalize it and still
create a life that you lovedespite what he does or doesn't
do.
And that's really what this isabout.
It's learning to create livesthat we love.
Yeah, I agree.
You have to be empowered.
You have to trust yourself andsurround yourself with people
who get it.
So thank you so much.
(24:30):
I'm gonna put all theinformation on how you can
contact Vanessa in the shownotes.
Thanks for listening to TheSurvivor's Playbook.
If today's episode helped youfeel less alone, more clear,
more confident, more empoweredand educated, please share it
with someone else who might needit.
And if you're ready for deepersupport, you can join my monthly
(24:50):
membership or grab free tools atchantalcontorinescoaching.com
The link is in the show notes.
Remember, your clarity is yourpower.
Your calm is your resistance.
You are not crazy.
You are not alone.
You are not powerless.
Until next time, keep going.
I see you.
Welcome everybody to TheSurvivor's Playbook with Chantal
Contorines, your host, this isthe podcast for every survivor
of abuse.
If abusers can have a playbook,then why can't survivors so that
you can actually live a lifethat you love despite what your
abuser does or doesn't do?
And today, I'm so excited tohave Vanessa Reiser on, she is a
(00:23):
woman with many hats.
She's a therapist, she's asurvivor.
She's a cult and narcissisticabuse expert.
She's an author, a mom, she's arunner.
She, you probably have seen herin the news, she runs every year
in her wedding dress acrossstates.
She's a powerhouse.
So thank you so much, Vanessa,for being on today and taking
time out of your busy life tohelp people live lives that they
(00:45):
love.
Thank you so much.
On that note, how did you getinto this?
How did you become an expert inthis field?
Yes, great question.
I attended the University ofSouthern California and became a
social worker, and whilst inmaster's program, never learned
anything about personalitydisorders So I have this$115,000
(01:09):
brain from one of the greatestinstitutions, and yet had no
idea what was happening to mewhen I went through it myself,
even as a therapist.
And that's really important forpeople to understand.
There's this erroneous beliefthat only uneducated people who
don't know about this fall prey.
But they're predators, abusersare predators and they will go
(01:31):
after everybody.
And the higher you are, the moreeducated you are, the more
beautiful, charismatic, goodlooking you are, the bigger the
prey.
It's wow, I've actually snaggedthis person.
So anybody is susceptible toabuse.
That's the overarching thing.
It's not just ignorant people.
It's not just people you knowwho low iq.
It can happen to anybody, and Ireally think that's important.
(01:51):
We talk a lot about women inthese environments.
But in the NXIVM cult, we hadMark Vicente who was victimized.
We saw Kevin Spacey's victimsall be men.
We saw P Diddy's, victims ofcoercive control also be some
men.
And I think that's important tohighlight because I think that's
(02:12):
when we'll see the change iswhen men come out and discuss,
how they themselves have beenvictimized by a narcissist, a
sociopath, or a psychopath.
But yes, that is absolutelycorrect.
They cast out a bunch of lines,and if you don't have good
boundaries, and they can exploitanything that you're gonna give
them, including sex, housing,fame, money, any, anything at
(02:35):
all cooking they will exploitany value added on their behalf.
So it really doesn't, it runsthe gamut.
Nobody is immune from mindcontrol.
And that's really importantbecause, and you touched upon
something because I work withboth men and women because abuse
affects both.
Abusers are men and they'rewomen.
There are people who you knoware famous.
(02:56):
They're people who are notfamous.
They're people next door.
They can be your priest.
They can be your lawyer.
They can be your doctor.
They can be your teacher.
They come in every shape andform, and not every abuser is
obvious.
There are.
I think we've come a long way insociety's understanding a little
bit more about abuse, but notevery abuser is charismatic, is
gregarious.
Some are very covert, some arevery vulnerable.
(03:17):
Some come across as really shy.
And, self-deprecating.
So they come in all shapes andsizes, genders, races, cultures
socioeconomic statuses.
You have some people who arevery high level and some people
who are very low level.
So you were in school, educatingyourself while simultaneously
being abused.
(03:38):
I actually was out of schoolalready, so I did graduate, I
graduated from USC and wasworking at the Jewish Board in
the Bronx, which was anoutpatient mental health clinic.
And I absolutely loved it.
And then I did fall into thisrelationship where I found
myself rather confused,isolated.
(04:00):
Just lots of gaslighting.
My energy was just totallyenveloped, long text messages,
being flown all over the world.
And I lost myself.
And by the time I woke up fromthis stupor, it was almost too
late.
I was really.
(04:21):
Homeless, jobless friendless.
It was really awful.
It was a complete nuclearfallout.
And that is what abusers do, isthey isolate you and you they
create this dependency on them,as either, the only person who
is there for them, the onlyperson that you have a support.
And if you aren't fullyisolated.
It's typically their supportsystem So their friends, their
(04:41):
family and financial abuse issuch an easy way to abuse
somebody if you take away their,ability to actually make money
leaving is so much harder whenyou don't have access to money.
Yeah.
And I was no different thananyone else in that I found
myself in that cycle of abuseof.
The makeup session, the fallout,the, sorry, the makeup session,
the tension building, and thenthe fallout, and it went with
(05:02):
this rhythm.
It seemed to be like every 14days there would be a fallout,
and then we would have this kindof like makeup session and then
a tension building and thefallout, and it was so dizzying
and I would slip further andfurther from myself with each
fallout, because I would look atmyself in the mirror.
I remember doing this in thebathroom and thinking who are
(05:22):
you?
Because I began to make biggerconcessions and more excuses as
time went on.
And he would turn up the dialbecause he was probably watching
what I was tolerating.
And I couldn't believe what Iwas tolerating.
It was blowing me away and Ireally did begin to dig my heels
in deeper with him.
Believe it or not.
And so it felt almost like ahole that I needed to climb out
(05:44):
of when I finally got out of it.
And it took me two years solidof just licking wounds,
studying, stepping into mypower.
Beginning to radically self-lovemyself again.
A lot of people who are incults, by the way, they have a
harder time because they don'thave that sense of self.
I was at least able to go findthat girl that I was prior,
(06:05):
which is really important.
But yeah, it was.
It was so slow moving, even inmy case, which was pretty fast.
'Cause it was a shortrelationship.
It was under two years.
But it was still so slow that Icouldn't see, the death by a
million cuts.
It was just happening slowly.
And when you're in it, it's sohard to see.
You can't see the doors for thetrees.
(06:27):
I can see each individual thingif they're micro cuts.
Death by a million cuts.
If they're micro cuts, you'relike, oh you can justify it.
And as abuse progresses youbecome better at justifying the
abuse, oh, they had a stressfulday at work, or they just lost
this contract, whatever it is.
If I just did this, oh, I mustbe part of the, the actual
problem.
They treat other people betterthan they treat me, so I'm
obviously at fault.
(06:47):
So if I just did this better, ifI just made their steak, the way
they liked it today, or cleanthe house or whatever it is
maybe I wouldn't haveexperienced what I just
experienced.
Yeah.
And they're not always badAbusers are very adept at giving
you just enough hope so youstay.
It's oh, that's the person thatI fell in love with right there.
And it feels euphoric becauseyou've been starving for any
(07:08):
affection and attention.
So when they finally do give youpositive reinforcement, positive
attention and affection oh, thatfeels beautiful.
And it's like the sun's shiningon you and everything, and
they're, very good.
By the time you get into thistype of relationship, they've
been practicing for years.
Every relationship they becomemaster manipulators.
And most people are unaware thatthis is something that they can
(07:28):
be.
Yeah.
And then it feels like a drugaddiction.
So you're looking for that high,you're looking for that love
bomb.
You're looking for that makeupsession again, because it's a
fix basically.
You're getting a dopamine hit inthat moment.
Yeah.
And that's the, that is thetrauma bond, you are literally
Exactly.
Physically addicted to the highsand the lows, like your body, is
looking for that next hit.
(07:50):
You become like a drug addict.
And it's unbeknownst to you, youhaven't chosen this, but the
very cycle of abuse and, thehighs and the lows creates whole
chemical shit storm in yourbody.
That's perfect.
Exactly.
They're very well said French.
That's why we become addicted.
And we don't realize this, andthis is why leaving is so hard
(08:11):
too, because, and if they lovebomb you back, they, future fake
and all these promises.
If you don't have a secureenough base from which to be
able to resist so many people goback.
Especially if you don't have thesupport, familial support,
community support, expertsupport, and or you're lacking
resources, be it money orhousing.
They starve you back or they,praise you back.
(08:33):
So you escaped, you left.
You built yourself back up.
What are some of the things thatyou did, because when you leave
this, you are not feeling greatabout yourself.
You're not feeling hopeful oroptimistic, you're feeling very
confused.
It's very disorientingespecially as you start to peel
back the layers and trulyunderstand what you've
experienced Healing isn'tlinear.
(08:55):
Yeah.
I remember thinking at firstthat I was a narcissist because
we had become so codependent andenmeshed.
That it was hard for me todelineate who I was from this
entity.
And I was thinking to myself,maybe I'm the problem.
One of the things that saved mein that moment was I knew that I
was a lot of things, but I wasnever a liar.
Like I was always like anauthentic person.
(09:17):
To a fault.
People who know me, even myclients, I curse and I'm just
this real gritty person andnobody would ever accuse me of
being like a fraud.
So that was.
That was very clarifying for me.
And then I began to connect withmy friends that were laughed.
A lot of my friends did.
They abandoned me, which wasreally hard.
And I began to connect withthose people and just one foot
(09:40):
in front of the other, I startedto love myself again.
I started to put the pieces backtogether.
I studied it.
Beyond.
I just was so curious, like howcould people be this evil?
I didn't know, I grew up in likethe Sesame Street world of I
thought everybody thought theway I did, that they were, as a
matter of fact, as a socialworker, for many years I was
like, everybody can berehabilitated.
(10:02):
Yay.
This kind of naive liberal, andafter I went through this, I was
like, I'm getting a gun.
People are evil.
This is crazy.
It really turned everything forsomeone like me on its head, and
I really struggled with that.
It was a big thing, and I putthat as the first line in my
book actually.
You really have to unhand thisconcept that people think
similarly.
They don't.
Yeah, and that was a big pill.
(10:23):
And that's the truth.
Liars believe that everybody'slying.
Cheaters believe thateverybody's cheating, which is
typically this type ofpersonality.
Whatever they project onto youbecause they truly believe that
everybody thinks as disorderlyas they do.
And honest people tend tobelieve that people are honest.
Kind.
People tend to believe thatpeople are genuinely kind.
And you have to understand that.
And I.
I'm a pathological positiveperson, but I do since this
(10:45):
since my eyes have been openpersonally as well as
professionally, I've come torealize that a lot of people are
wonderful.
There's a lot of good people whoare hurting and do things, but
their intent is good, butthere's also this undercurrent,
this underbelly of people andthey're they're truly monsters.
And as a positive person, it'shard for me to actually say
that, but I really don't believethat there's hope for these
people of ever changing.
(11:06):
We, we have to let go of, oh,they might change, yeah, no.
They're so ingrained in theirdisordered behavior.
Especially when they're adults,like they're 40 and they're 50,
it would be very unlikely forthem to ever do the hard work.
Yeah.
And my sense is that they likethe way they are in their minds,
they're winning, and we arecertainly not doing enough to
cultivate empathy in oursocieties right now.
(11:27):
So they are in some wayswinning.
One out of four CEOs as apsychopath directly, they're not
entirely wrong.
They have a winning streak ofsorts.
Unfortunately.
And so they have no interest inchanging No for them.
They get what they want.
The end of day buy a hookup bycrook, which is the average
person is not willing to gothose lengths to get what they
would like.
I would like to have lots ofmoney, but I'm not willing to
(11:48):
lie, steal, and cheat to getthat money.
Because at the end of the day,if I've hurt somebody, if I've
taken their retirement to buildmy own retirement, then I have
an issue.
There's like an ethical, alsolike the joke is on them because
that's not what real riches are.
Real riches are the connectionsthat you have with people.
Yeah.
Real riches are, beautifulsymphonies and music and nature
and all the things that theyseek to destroy for their own
(12:10):
gain.
That's where the riches are.
And so the laugh really is onthem.
They don't know that.
Yeah.
Because there's so tunnelvisions thinking about, how to
find the next nickel, butreally.
As somebody who's 52 years oldand has seen money and has seen
no money I would rather be inthe middle of the projects
listening to gospel music andhaving a grilled cheese than
(12:34):
ever live in that dark housewith that terrible energy ever
again.
So the laugh is really on them.
They think they're winning.
Winning.
Yeah.
And that's cute and fascinating,but like I said, the real riches
are elsewhere.
And that is really, I always,and I've posted about this
before and I've discussed thiswith clients and my members, is
they feel like they're winning,but they are never winning at
life.
You can strip me down, you cantake all my money, and I'll
(12:56):
always find happiness.
And that's truly, I'm actuallywinning at life.
Because they're nothing withouttheir enablers and they're
nothing without.
Money.
That truly is the identity.
Whereas the average person, youand I for instance, take that
all away from us and we'll stillbe able to find happiness.
It's in the simple things.
It's in like a blue sky and likesun and friends coming over and
(13:17):
good music and good food andconnection.
They're always chasing the highthat we naturally get.
'cause people don't genuinelylike them for who they are.
They fall for who they pretendto be.
Whereas we.
You fall for people who you knoware genuine and they fall for
you because, she's she'sintelligent and she's kind and
she's hardworking.
So we actually are winning atlife.
(13:38):
They might feel like, and we canlet them feel that.
That's just great.
You just, you win at life inyour own little way.
But they're always unhappy.
They had never get like fullhappiness.
They'll, that will always evadethem.
Never.
It's like love, like they neverexperience real, genuine love.
Which true.
I always say there's like a holein the bucket.
They can never get enough.
Yeah.
Cheeseburgers, cocaine, sex.
(13:59):
They're constantly trying tofeel something and to get a
dopamine kick and Yeah, becausethey're vacant.
Yeah.
Barren creatures.
And when you think of it thatway.
You can just keep your millions,you can keep whatever you think
is fantastic, but you are alwaysrunning, you're always trying to
chase and also avoid yourself,right?
(14:19):
So much of their addictions,'cause they're all addicts of
some sort, right?
They're always trying to outrunwho they are and stay two steps
ahead of, the reality of whothey are.
So you've created this life foryourself.
Outside of this vortex of abusedo you have any tips or tricks
or tools for people navigatingthis who are perhaps thinking of
(14:41):
leaving or have left and arelike, I just, I don't know how
to build a life outside of this.
I don't know how to climb out ofthis hole that I'm currently in.
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, it is abig hole and usually you may
have to, hold your nose and jumpin the water or jump off the
cliff or rip the bandaid offbecause.
(15:02):
You gotta get outta there.
There are obviously reasons whypeople stay, including finances
and children, and I honor that.
But by and large, my advice isto run for your life to the
extent that you can, and thenpick up the pieces later in
terms of divorce, co-parenting,et cetera.
And it's messy.
But you will have moments likewhen I got back into my little
(15:24):
house.
I remember having a fist fightwith my curling irons because I
was now out of the mansion and Iwas into my tiny little ranch
and I was thrilled.
I was like, I'd much rather, asI mentioned, be, in the middle
of the projects there wasnothing that could.
Seduce me back.
So you will have moments of justpeace, like it just washes over
(15:44):
you that you don't have to walkon eggshells.
It almost feels like getting outof prison.
It feels like getting out ofjail.
I felt like I won the lotterywhen I got out of that
relationship.
And then there were the momentsof absolute hellish court
experiences and stalking and allthe things that I had to endure
and many endure.
But there were still thosemoments where I could have.
(16:07):
The healing and it's not linear.
It's three steps forward, twosteps back, five steps forward,
nine steps back.
It's really jagged, this healingprocess.
It's basically a trauma, sothere's gonna be a lot of
flashbacks and there's gonna bea lot of nightmares, and there's
gonna be a lot of ruminating andconfusion for a very long time.
If you don't do the work, it'dprobably take about four years
(16:28):
to manage this if you do thework, maybe two, and I know that
feels really overwhelming forsome people, but if you don't do
anything and you blink your eyesand it's 10 years fast forward
the ghost of Christmas future,and you've done nothing, you
will.
Begin to decompensate and to theextent that you could die
because it's gonna affect yourimmune system.
You're gonna have high cortisollevels.
(16:49):
So I always recommend leavingand even though it sucks to do I
think hide your preciousbelongings, hide money, start to
stash things away.
Your everything is going to bedestroyed by the narcissists on
the way out.
They don't generally mediate orplay nice.
They have to win and they can bevery sadistic.
So there's a lot of ways thatyou have to be mindful, but
overall, generally I advisegetting out of there.
(17:12):
Yeah.
And everybody does.
So at their own time, you areyour own personal.
Best advocate, and you also knowyour own story, right?
So pick a time that works foryou.
There's never gonna be an idealtime.
There's always just there'snever like an ideal time to have
a baby or get divorced or evenget married, but there's always
I could, save up a little bitmore.
Or, I could have a bigger housebefore we start a family, or
(17:32):
there's never an ideal time.
But do your due diligence.
If safety is an issue, obviouslyleave ASAP and then go back and
do whatever you need to do.
But if safety isn't an issue,it's not something on your radar
right now.
Create an exit strategy so thatyou, because most people, it
takes about seven times wherepeople are able to leave
(17:52):
successfully, right?
And that's because they leaveand then are starved back, or
they're future faked back in tothe relationship.
So if you are strategic aboutyour leaving.
Then hopefully you're able toactually stay gone.
Now you rip the bandage, you dothe hard thing, you create the
ultimate boundary.
You don't have to change.
But I can no longer put up withthis abusive behavior.
So you do, you boo, and I'm justgonna extricate myself and I'm
(18:14):
gonna create a life and it'sgonna be hard.
These people, abuse does not endjust because of relationship
ends.
And this is also the erroneousbelief that we have.
When people split ways, egosmight be bruised, you lick your
ego and then you move on.
An abuser really feels investedin you and they feel like they
own you.
So they've invested two years,20 years, whatever it is, you
(18:35):
are their personal, belongingand how dare you try to leave?
Because abuse is always aboutpower and control and it doesn't
end just because of relationshipDoes.
This isn't just No, as a matterof fact, it gets worse.
Post-separation abuse is a veryreal thing.
Abuse just morphs.
And if you have children withthis person, then it, they start
to use your children and thesystem.
(18:55):
So you become, everythingbecomes weaponized.
They can and will weaponizeeverything.
Having said that though, theonly al other alternative is a
stake.
And that's really not along-term alternative, as you
said.
Long-term, prolonged stress andyour entire relationship is
stressful.
Even when there's good times,you know at any moment in the
back of your mind when the goodstuff is happening.
(19:16):
This might, come to an end andit's gonna come to an end.
And it could be right now, itcould be in a day, it could be
in a week.
But I know that this istemporary.
So even in the good times,you're still apprehensive
because even though you don'tunderstand the cycle of abuse
just yet,'cause you're in it,you know it's gonna cycle back
to something that you do or sayor don't do or don't say is
going to trigger them.
So your entire relationship isstressful.
(19:37):
You're not supposed to liveunder constant chronic stress
that does damage from like acellular level.
Yeah.
And so really escaping is youronly option.
Yeah.
We, I learned in dialecticalbehavioral therapy that when you
have a baseline.
Of your mood or yourdisposition, and anytime you go
up or feel happy, you actuallydon't like it.
(20:00):
Human beings don't like anytimethey move away from baseline, so
whether it's up or down, thegoal is to stay as close to
baseline and as calm.
As you can.
And so this idea that you wouldfeel elated, doesn't feel
comfortable because you knowthat you're gonna, it's gonna
not last forever.
And so yeah, it really does anumber on you and then a
(20:21):
narcissist is watching you.
Manage their abuse too.
So they tend to have this dial,oh, you tolerated that.
How about this?
And it's a slow turn of thedial.
And so by the time, 10 years hascome and on and you look in the
rear of your mirror, you reallydo not recognize yourself
because of what you've endured.
So it's a slow thing, but thatdial does turn up.
(20:42):
They're watching you.
Oh you manage that.
How about this now?
Yeah.
Because they constantly need anew hit.
So they, yeah.
What used to make you squirm andmake you uncomfortable, you now
tolerate so it's now just becomelike your baseline.
And these people are constantlylooking for a reaction from you.
So if you're no longer reacting,'cause it's just your norm, to
get up in the morning and becriticized, now they're gonna
amplify that.
And it's that's exactly right.
(21:02):
That, that saying, where you putlike a frog in a pot of water
and you slowly turn up the heat,it won't know that it's being
boiled alive until it's toolate.
That's exactly what happens tous.
Yeah.
We are the frog and the pot ofwater and the abuse slowly
cranks up and revs up and rampsup.
And they test your boundariestoo.
Oh, she, he or she, toleratedthat well.
How about this?
For them it's a game.
(21:23):
Yeah.
I've had clients that have beensmart enough to leave before
having children, and it is thevictory of my life.
I can't even tell you the.
Thrill of watching somebody justrun for run, just get out.
And then you're like, you didit.
Because they don't know, as Imentioned, that this idea of
(21:43):
trying to co-parent with amonster, how that will just
destroy your entire being.
So you know, the victory is ifyou're listening to this and you
don't have kids with thesepeople and you know that this is
a narcissist, just trust melike.
You are winning.
You're the victor.
It's your you have this.
You're like, it reminds mesometimes of a bird in a cage,
but the cage door is open.
(22:04):
Yes, it's fly.
You're free.
But yeah, it's, maddening towatch from the outside in you,
you see somebody being abused.
That there's an escape, but theydon't see the escape, right?
Yeah.
And you just hit the nail on thehead.
They have children for manyreasons.
One is a constant source ofsupply, children constantly try
to get their parents to lovethem, by any means necessary.
It also allows them to blend inwith society.
(22:25):
People who have childrentypically are regarded as,
better people by society.
The two parents picket fence andthree children and a dog.
That's oh, okay, I'm gonna trustyou with my life savings because
you have children on your deskright in this frame.
And also it tethers the otherperson to this person for at
least 18 years.
It's the ultimate shackle.
(22:45):
Once you have children with thisperson, it is a game changer
because they will absolutely usethe children to hurt you.
Because if you're a lovingperson, how do you hurt a person
who loves their childrenunconditionally?
You hurt the children.
Or you go after the children'sattachment to this person.
Yeah.
So if you can pay heed to whatVanessa has just said, if you
are thinking about havingchildren you need to run right,
(23:06):
because you can still live alife.
I work with a lot of parents whoare protective parents who have
this as a counter parent.
And they can still create lives,but it's so much work and it's
constant trauma.
Like you're constantly being,blindsided by the level that
they will stoop to hurt you.
That's right.
So you can avoid that.
Avoidance is the most ideal,which is also why we talk about
(23:27):
this a lot, because if you caneven just avoid this type of
personality altogether in yourlife, be it, relationship or
romantic, or you'll be so muchbetter off because they
literally drain you from theinside out.
That's true.
So thank you so much, Vanessa,for coming on from imparting
your personal as well as yourprofessional knowledge on
people.
You're not only a survivor, butyou're also an expert.
(23:49):
When you combine those twotogether, it's really powerful
for people to see, okay, she didthat, right?
She came from the bottom.
And, she's created a life thatshe loves despite, and you
still, the abuse still is there.
It can still rear its ugly headif he chooses to.
If he's bored or he doesn't havea hit, so it's like not ending,
(24:10):
but you've been able tocompartmentalize it and still
create a life that you lovedespite what he does or doesn't
do.
And that's really what this isabout.
It's learning to create livesthat we love.
Yeah, I agree.
You have to be empowered.
You have to trust yourself andsurround yourself with people
who get it.
So thank you so much.
(24:30):
I'm gonna put all theinformation on how you can
contact Vanessa in the shownotes.
Thanks for listening to TheSurvivor's Playbook.
If today's episode helped youfeel less alone, more clear,
more confident, more empoweredand educated, please share it
with someone else who might needit.
And if you're ready for deepersupport, you can join my monthly
(24:50):
membership or grab free tools atchantalcontorinescoaching.com
The link is in the show notes.
Remember, your clarity is yourpower.
Your calm is your resistance.
You are not crazy.
You are not alone.
You are not powerless.
Until next time, keep going.
I see you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.