September 23, 2024 • 40 mins
A podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.
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Episode Transcript
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Welcome to The Thinking Tree, a podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.
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I'm Adam Sanchez.
And I'm Jeff No.
And today we are taking on the issue of abortion.
All right, as we continue our series talking about political issues of our day,
there perhaps is no bigger issue than this one.
Yeah, this one's, yeah, this is the giant of them all, probably for Christians. It should be, at
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least. It should be. And yet we have found in our time, even in this last election cycle,
that it seems to be waning in terms of Christian support.
Yes.
And that is concerning.
It is concerning. Even though the DAP's decision overturned Roe v. Wade,
which was an interesting development in our country, it then became even more controversial
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because now we're talking about states versus federal and it got kind of muddled. I'm not
sure Christians even know where we stand right now.
So that's a great point. So to that end, our question for today is how should Christians
think about and respond to the issue of abortion? What once was such a clear issue of immorality and
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sinfulness has now-
Federally.
Federally has became, as you mentioned, Roe v. Wade in 1973, became a national allowance
that then confused the nature of what abortion is and even the best ways to deal with very
difficult issues, very difficult issues of raising children and family, a lot of things were at play.
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Right.
Now, historically, Christians have made this a single issue, meaning that this would be a
deciding factor, the deciding factor in which party they would vote for, historically.
Yeah.
What we find today is that is not necessarily the case for many Christians. Many Christians,
we'll get into that in a second actually. Historically, Democrats stand on one side,
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Republicans have stood on another. Historically, not true in every case.
Not every candidate.
Not every candidate, but generally speaking, and this is general not just for the presidential
elections, but also in terms of Senate races and House of Representatives, that generally,
the Democrat party supports abortion and really even extending time often.
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It's an extreme, yeah, absolutely.
Of what is allowed in terms of even killing children up until the moment they're born.
Yeah.
Up until the moment of what they call viability.
And some Republicans have also made allowances that have compromised the issue as well. So it's
not always black and white.
Not always 100 black and white. Generally, Republicans have stood on the side of a right to life.
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And the platforms have usually laid that out pretty clearly.
As part of their purpose with even propaganda when it comes to gaining support. So that's
kind of the history. It's been a divisive issue associated with women's rights. This goes back
to why it even became a law, a constitutional right supposedly in 1973. And it was on the heels of
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women's rights movement, which is on the heels of the civil rights movement.
Right.
And so you see those things kind of flow into each other. Now for the secular person,
they just view this simply through this lens of a woman's or person, right, not even a woman anymore,
a person's right to choose. There's even this new term called just bodily autonomy.
Right.
That I should be able to do whatever I want with me and no one should ask any questions. I think
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is what the vice presidential candidate currently, not the vice president, but her candidate said is
don't ask basically.
Yeah.
Which I do remember another older thing of don't ask, don't tell, but we'll get into
that when the issue calls for it. For Christians, so the secular mind views it that way. Christians
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usually just see this as the sixth commandment, thou shall not kill.
Right.
That is very clear. We do not take life.
Well, yeah, and absolutely. And that's our standard, but it's also, by the way,
it's also the standard in our founding documents. Declaration of Independence is the right to life is
literally there. And in the constitution, the 14th amendment, it literally is equal protection
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under the law, including life, liberty, and property. I mean, that's what always blows my mind
is that we've not only gone against the Bible, we've gone against our own founding documents on
this issue for so long. It's shocking that people don't know that and Christians should know that.
Yeah. And it's part of how our nation was founded and very uniquely.
Right.
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Because that is something that is unique compared to other nations on this planet.
And by the way, that's why the whole debate over personhood matters because that's the response
from those in the Democratic Party. Well, that's just a fetus, it's not a person. That's why the
whole debate over the science matters. I remember when slaves weren't people. I remember when women
weren't people. Exactly. It's one of the best arguments to make is to compare slavery to
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a helpless child. Yeah, and help with the same term.
Right. Correct. Correct.
When we're talking about how people feel.
Yep.
Now, we can be clear, I don't think we need to belabor the point that there is no biblical passage
that would advocate a pro-abortion position.
Right.
So it is very unfortunate then when some supposed Christian leaders take that stance and say that
it's allowed because there's this small evil and they can do this greater good in response.
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Yeah.
We'll get to that, but there is a fallacy within that thinking because there's no basis.
Right.
There's no biblical basis for supporting abortion. There are these what if arguments
that they'll often use, the situations of...
They will always use by the way.
Yes.
Always. This is always the argument that comes from the left.
What do you do in a situation where the mother's life is in danger and now you have to choose?
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So Christians need to be aware of the situational examples that are going to get used if you're
going to be able to properly discuss this issue.
Yeah, without just getting stuck.
Or emotional.
Right.
Or getting into an argument, which we're not called to do.
We don't need to argue over these things. I think that issue of a mother in trouble
and child is... I mean, it's a horrible situation.
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Oh yeah.
If you think about it. If there is a situation that arises where the mother's health is now
in question related to the birth of their child, that is so difficult and we should
be compassionate for such a situation. We should also recognize though that the decision
in that situation of which life to preserve, whether it's the life of the baby, the life
of the mother, that is going to be sought after with a great wisdom and care with even
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considering the viability of either who would have a better chance to live and to survive
in such a case. And it would be such an extreme case. We don't need split hairs on all the
nuances of it, but all of that wouldn't have nothing to do with a policy.
Right.
None of that has to do with a policy to allow to kill. That would be which life do we seek
to preserve.
Right.
And then you go that way and maybe one of them makes it, maybe the other one doesn't,
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maybe both survive.
Yeah.
But it has nothing to do with a policy to kill.
To the idea that we are going to take a very small percentage of births and we're going
to say-
Exceedingly small.
Because this could happen in 0.05% of cases, we are now going to make this broad policy
for 100% of the cases. It's such a logical fallacy. It's not even, it's laughable.
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It's not in the realm of reality.
Right.
And we could even ask how many of the abortions that were performed last year were in this
situation of a mother's life in danger.
Right.
And they had to choose the mother over the baby. And then I would ask how many times
was the baby chosen over the mother. And when you look at that percentage,
the answer is zero.
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Yeah.
And zero number of abortions. Zero percent of abortions has the baby's life been chosen
over the mother. It's no longer part of the same scenario at that point.
Correct.
Yeah. And the caring for a whole person's life, the womb to the tomb mentality,
that's the other big one used by the and campaign and others as well.
There's this idea that unless you care for everyone's whole life with an equity stance,
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not with a careful consideration, but just those buzzwords, right?
Unless you pursue that kind of socialist mindset that you have no basis to even disallow
abortion. That's another argument that's used is that you can't be against abortion
and not care for the rest of a person's life.
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And just step back and think about what that argument is. I mean, think about it.
This person is saying to you, look, if you will not fund the cost of that entire child's life,
it would be better to kill it.
That's what they're saying.
That is exactly what they're saying.
Which is insane.
It's insane. Exactly. It's absolutely crazy. Yeah.
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And even to expect who to pay for the baby's life. There is no other government or situation
on the planet that takes such a stance where the health and welfare of an individual is taken on
by society as a whole. So that idea is really flawed to begin with.
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For sure.
There's no government that does it. There's no people group that does it.
When we think about caring for the whole life of a person, we would say yes, yes and amen.
We should care for the whole life of a person. As believers, we do. You and I do. We care for people
from the womb to the tomb. There's no issue with that term. It's an issue when it's used to divide
on the abortion issue to say, well, you only care when it's a baby's life, but you don't care
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when they're older. And I would say, no, I have receipts. I can show you the evidence of caring for
people after they're born and caring for them in really hard situations. And our church does a
phenomenal job. I think our care team is a huge blessing to so many, not just in those who are
birth, you know, in the birth years, but even those who are older and caring for our senior saints as
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well, because as believers, we care for people, period. Whether they're in the womb or whether
they're older saints or anywhere in between, we care for people.
Yeah. But the argument's always to government.
That's the thing, right?
Going back to that issue, policy.
Going back, yep.
Yeah, exactly. The government's going to have to care for this child. Tax money's going to have to
care for this child, not churches, not people, because that's not even on their radar in that
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argument. It's just, okay, well, fine. If you're going to force this baby to be born, and they'll
say that, then the government should care for it for the rest of its life.
And therefore, that's why we need Democrat-led cities, because the Republican policies don't
promote social welfare. So if you are going to preserve life and say, vote for no abortion,
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then you need Democrat policymakers who are going to care for the people and give government money
for them for the rest of their life.
Yeah, that's all I'm saying.
And that cycle repeats. And what do we see with Democratic-led cities?
Democrat-led cities and states have in no way shown themselves to be truly either capable or
effective in caring for poor and marginalized people.
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Right. Look at the homeless rate.
When you look at the homeless rate, when you look at the... The numbers around poverty are stunning
in large cities. Stunning.
The fentanyl rate.
It's insane how much our large cities do not care for people, even though they have so many
programs that say they do. That's what's insane. So much money is put forward, and yet so little
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result. And then they want people to keep voting. This is actually what disenfranchises really,
I would say, minority communities in larger cities is when they see the years and the decades of no
change. Then they say, you know what? I'm going to punch a different ticket.
Right.
Because I've had enough of that.
I've had enough lemonade. Let me go to orange juice.
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Right.
The lemonade didn't help me out. So let me go to the orange juice.
I know it's a silly, silly statement.
And we can be honest, it doesn't mean the Republicans are going to do anything either.
It doesn't. They just want something new because they've had that.
It's just shifting the money to a different group. Because as I said a couple of weeks ago,
a couple of episodes ago, when an entire industry is built around a problem,
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the last thing you want to do is solve the problem.
Right. Because that's their livelihood.
That's their cash flow. So you've got all these groups getting rich because of
all of these things, fentanyl overdoses, homelessness, crime, poverty. It's all a
moneymaker. So they're not going to fix the problem.
Yeah.
But they're going to demand more tax dollars, millions, billions. And they're all living it up.
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Yeah.
And they're not solving the problem. So-
And we're working in nonprofit is something that I see all the time. And maybe it's another episode
that we devote to thinking through it. But in terms of helping people find legitimate solutions
to care for themselves, that is something that governments are extremely poor and limited in
doing.
Right.
You want to talk about the inability of government. I think it's seen at kind of two main fronts.
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One, efficiency. Governments are not efficient.
Right.
And so you talk about how bad governments are. And their efficiency is number one. Number two,
caring for the least.
Yeah.
They're really not good at that.
Right.
What is the church supposed to do? Care for the least.
Right. Well, how do you... We know this from pastoral ministry. How do you walk somebody
through an addiction or through a deeply seated problem in their heart? It takes constant care.
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Well, you just mentioned the word walk.
You walk with them.
You walk with them.
Right.
That's not an instant moment.
All the time. Government can't do it.
And it's not throwing money at somebody.
Right.
It's not throwing a program at them.
Right.
And here's the hardest part. With that, we know that it requires heart change.
Yeah.
And that heart change doesn't come with our ability. It comes by God. But God often uses us,
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his people,
Sure.
... to bring about the scales falling off the eyes and the soft heart that comes. So the problems
are never going to be solved with earthly means.
Right.
The problems can only be solved by means that are outside of us.
Yeah.
And truly God changing hearts and the God making ways. There are things we can do,
but the things we can do is not vote for policies.
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Right.
That's not how we're gonna find the solutions.
And we'll be very sad if we place our hope in those policies because we're gonna see over time
that they don't actually fix anything.
Right.
And that's what we've seen with the care for the poor and the marginalized as an emphasis
over caring for the aborted baby.
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Right.
They try to take our eyes away from the issue of that unborn baby.
Right.
And instead take our eyes to, we'll care for these social programs.
Right.
If you care for these social programs, that's how you really can care. And that's how you
can encourage women to not abort their baby.
Right.
That's their tactic and it's not a legitimate one.
And the core issue is this is a human life that has great value.
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Correct.
In the Imago Dei made in the image of God.
Yes.
And must be protected.
Amen.
Must be.
We learned that from Genesis 1.
Right.
That's what you just mentioned there. Three chapters later, we have some of the most
heinous things occur. The first murder.
Cain kills his brother Abel and then just a few verses later there's this man named Lamech.
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Right.
And he's boasting about his murderous heart, how quick he is to kill a man for striking
him, for speaking poorly of him.
Yeah.
How quick he is to kill a young man. Now the rationale for those murderous hearts of Cain
and Lamech, that was anger and maybe we don't think of abortion as only in that realm,
but think about another one, self-preservation.
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Yeah.
Now that argument is often used as a rationale for abortion. Another one is a falling countenance.
That's what Cain had. Today we might call that depression.
Yeah.
We might call that discouragement.
Right.
That's also a word that would be used in the rationale for abortion today.
And then Lamech talked about vengeance as well. I don't know if that's a direct comparison today,
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but I note those things because I don't think that that's so disconnected from the heart of
a desire to abort a baby today. Before we go to those extreme examples that are really intense,
just think for a moment about the phrase, my body, my choice. It really is about what a person
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desires, what they want for themselves, that they recognize with a baby that a woman could see life
is going to be more difficult with children, that there are going to be fewer opportunities for her
to generate income, fewer opportunities for her to pursue the things that she wants preference wise.
Right.
There are going to be the burdens and the costs of childcare. She's going to be dependent
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upon somebody else. Part of this is what we recognize as God's design for the family,
where the woman carries the baby on purpose and the man is to provide for his wife and for his
children. Now we know that we live in a broken world where that doesn't happen, that doesn't
work the right way. That doesn't mean God's way isn't good. Just because our ways are broken,
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doesn't mean God's ways are bad. We do need to make that distinction because oftentimes
the secular world will try to back us into a corner and say, well, you just need to solve
this other problem. It's like, well, the problem is deeper. The problem is far deeper than you
think. The problem is not just fatherlessness. The problem is not just that there's no economic
opportunity for a single woman. The problem is the nature of sin and that's something the government
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can never solve.
Correct.
So as they look at that, they're looking at a problem that they can't address, that they're
trying to put a bandaid on a gunshot wound and only the church has answers for these things.
Only the true church of Jesus has answers for these things. But when we look at something
so intense about killing someone to get it, now that's the heart of Kane and Lamech saying,
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I want something so bad, I'm willing to kill.
I want my lifestyle. I want a certain standard of living. I don't want to be tied down to this
other person.
And then we do one evil to make up for another.
Yeah. And that's, by the way, that's the third case that people will throw at us, right? They'll
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say, well, there are those, there's that small percentage where a woman is raped and it's tragic
and it's awful. And I mean, who wouldn't recognize that that's awful?
That's evil. It's horrendous.
And I can't imagine, and we should just say this, can't imagine what it would mean to have
to carry that child to term being a rape victim. But what's the alternative? Like you said,
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to do a second evil, to snuff out a life, to punish the child for the sins of the father.
I mean, how many people would say, okay, let's just say that child's been born. How many people
would say, okay, that child has a wicked father. He's a murderer. He's a rapist. We should just,
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we should just kill the child. So he or she doesn't have to grow up under that. Now I know
what they're, what they really are stressing is the emotional turmoil and pain that the woman has
to, every time she sees that child, she's going to remember that. We're compassionate. We sympathize
with that. But do you know some of the stories that have come out of that rape victims who have
given birth to children and they've gotten past that by God's grace and they're able to see that
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child as a gift and raise that child beautifully and that child flourishes and becomes very,
very, you know, contributes to society. And there's many of those stories out there.
Yeah. What if that life had just been snuffed out because this was going to be hard. So,
so when those, when that issue is thrown at you as a Christian, the first reaction is, I get it.
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That is awful. Yeah. Don't delegitimize that. Right. Right. That is a horrendous one.
It's also exceedingly rare. Very rare. That's not, that's not the, you look at the number of
abortions, that's not going to be a 50% 60% issue. No, it's going to be less than one. It's going to
be exceedingly rare. Yeah. But we still respond with compassion. Correct. And we can think with
discernment. Okay. Well, it's a horrible thing, but we don't do another evil to cover up the first
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one. Right. So you think about even how David had Uriah murdered because of his first sinful
indiscretion with Bathsheba. Yeah. He tried to cover up one evil with another evil and it only
got worse. That was a nature. And what was the result? His first child was taken from him.
Right. And he was devastated. But he was still devastated about that child. Right. And we've
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lost a compassion and a devastation about a baby, about a child. So we, we focus so much on the
devastation of the mother, which is, is devastating. Yeah. Right. But we need to think also about the
devastation of a baby. Yeah. And we've lost that compassion in our society. We have so limited
that we are more compassionate about animals and animal shelter. Right. Than we are about babies
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who haven't been born yet. Right. We've dehumanized them. Correct. And that is a tragic reality that
we have here in the United States. When we think about that, even that poor life, you know, you
mentioned the situation of a rape victim. There is a story I know about in Rwanda, you know, the
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genocide that occurred, which is very painful. There was a lot of violence and a lot of wickedness
that went on. And one woman was, was, was attacked and, and was made pregnant by this very wicked,
evil man who even, who even harmed her in the midst of it. And she carried the baby to full term
because it wasn't legal to, it's not. And most cultures, it's especially in poor cultures,
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not legal to pursue abortion, especially in Africa. And so she carried the baby to full term. And then
she gave the baby up for adoption. And so that baby was raised in a town further south from her
by parents who actually were believers, which it was incredible. And even then there's a little
note I would make here in the United States, you look at the number of adoptive parents
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are predominantly Christian. Yeah. Predominantly Christian. And we have one of the worst such,
like dynamics and the world is getting worse at this by the, by the minute too, for adoption.
We, we as Christians should be willing to adopt. Doesn't mean everyone is going to have the means,
but Christians do have the proclivity to adopt. We're like 80%, I think, of the, of the adoption
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rate in the United States, but our adoption process is very bad in the United States. Not only is the
foster system bad, but yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. And so there's not a clean way, an easy way to go
from a baby who is, who is not wanted to a family who wants to and can afford it because our adoption
process is very expensive because people stand to make money in the middle rather than saying,
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Hey, you have the financial means of care for this baby. You know, because the family that that baby
came from didn't have the financial means. And now this other does, but now they lose 20 grand,
30 grand, 40 grand because they had to pay just all these process fees. Anyways, there's a lot of
issues in that, but going back to the story of Rwanda, this young man, he grows up and under
this Christian household, he gets saved and he becomes a believer and now he wants to serve the
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Lord. Well, as he grew up, he knew a little bit about his story. He wanted to meet his mom. He
went back and she was, she was willing to meet him, but she was scared because we talk about the
difficulty of seeing, you know, the, the, the attacker in the, in the face of her son. So they
did meet, they met and she couldn't handle it. It was too painful for her. And that was devastating
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to hear that testimony. I can't even imagine what that would have been like, whether for her or for
that young man, that young man did nothing. But to your point, what if they had killed him because
he was the child of a, an attacker of a rapist, just by, by his lineage, what if they had killed
him simply because of that? Instead, no, he was, he was not killed. He was raised by a Christian
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family and he's part of a church and he sought even to reconcile with his mom and she was unwilling
and he never hated her because the love of Christ compelled him. He said, okay, I tried, I wanted to,
I wanted to have a relationship, but you know what? This is the evil in this world. And so even his
own mother wouldn't accept him, but he had parents who did and he had a church who didn't, he had a
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church to serve in. And so we can see even an immense evil, God can still do good. And thinking
biblically is what led to that good. Right. And it wasn't a policy that led to that. And that's a
painful reality and it was a hard situation. There's no good way. There's no, there's no,
there's no intrinsic joy in just doing the hard things, but in hindsight, we can look back and
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say, wow, God was doing more than we imagined. So we can't advocate for killing and for death
when, when there's an opportunity that God could have moving forward. There's no, there's no
rationale for that. Yeah. And let me just caution our Christian listeners. Sometimes we want to
leave wiggle room on that because we understand the pain. So we say, well, look, we're against
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abortion, but you know what? Sometimes because of rape or because of this, I'll allow for it. Then
you violated the principle that you started with. That is the value of human life in the amargot
day. So don't empathize, but don't give in on that because you actually look double-minded
when you do that. I could go deeper. I mean, I know we're 25 minutes in, but I'll give one more
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story. I was at this home and it's called a baby's home out in Uganda and in Uganda, they don't allow
abortion. So people find a way, the human heart always finds a way. We talk about, if we're talking
about gun control, which I know is not on the slate for this season, we'll talk about another time,
but with gun control, for example, if you take away guns, people will find other things. Yes.
I'm not, we can talk about the nuance, but you will, whether it's by knives, which we saw
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stabbings recently in Germany and UK, it's in the UK or whether it's by hands or whether it's by rocks,
you name it. But humans will pursue evil any way that they can in Uganda because they can't pursue
abortion. They'll leave babies in gutters. Exposure. They'll leave babies in literal dumpster trash bins.
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They'll leave babies out in, just out, just out in the middle of a field and expect that some animal
will come and take care of that baby. Wow. Not take care of them to love them. Oh, right. But to end
their life. That's the nature of life. And in Uganda, life is very cheap. Now to God, it's not. To
God, life is immensely valuable. It's in fact the most valuable of all the things on this earth.
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Human life is the most valuable and we treat it so cheap. As you mentioned, we devalue human life.
We emphasize even animals or even the trees over humans. But this home exists to rescue babies.
The admission, how do you get in is by not having anyone to care for you, is being abandoned. That's
the admission. Could you imagine like, we're used to admission being something we strive for, right?
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You wanna earn the grades. I wanna get admitted, so I'm gonna look at all these qualifications.
The qualification to enter into this home is having no one to care for you, is truly being
abandoned, truly being an orphan, as the Bible even describes. What's so beautiful about that
home though, is that these kids are given an opportunity. They're given an opportunity that
the kids who aren't rescued don't get. The home can only support like 30 kids at a time. It's not
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hundreds. It's 30 and it's sadly one of the least supported ministries because people don't see it.
You don't see babies and infants. But the goal of this ministry is to see that child go with a
loving family, whether that's maybe somehow a related family, which sadly it's not. Mostly,
it's to a Christian family in the church. Christian family in the church who says,
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we can take on this child, we can care for them, we can raise them, we can raise them as our own.
And they care for them. Sometimes they need to go to an orphan home, but here's what I noted
when I was there. And I've been to this home several times. I was with a couple of godly men,
one is a pastor in the area. One was actually rescued off of the streets when he was eight
years old. And so he lived as an orphan, as a street kid, and was rescued by the same ministry,
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grew up in the orphan home. Both men, at one point we were with our people, our travelers,
and holding babies and hanging out with them and little toddlers as well. And I looked around,
I didn't see the guys. I'm like, where'd they go? And then I hear them, I hear them talking,
and they were downstairs. So I went downstairs to go see them. And they were downstairs ironing
clothes. And I said, you know, brothers, why are you down here? And they looked at me with just
(28:20):
red eyes saying, it is so hard to be here. These are men who are tough. I mean, one of them grew
up on the streets, grew up on the streets selling scrap metal, I mean, sniffing glue, all the things.
They said, it's so hard to be here because we have, you know, they each have their own wife,
they each have their own kids, and they're both believers following the Lord. They said, it's so
(28:41):
hard because we can't imagine what would bring a person, a woman to do this. And we see those
kids in our heartbreaks because we see our kids in them. Now the pastor, he said, I need to bring
my kids back next month because I bring them here to play with the other kids a couple of times a
year just so that they see that there are other kids who don't have anything and we can love and
(29:01):
care for them, even just bring a slight little bright spot in their week by coming in. We see
this devastation everywhere. I only bring the story not to say the argument is from experience,
the argument is from God's Word, why we value life. What I'm highlighting is that this is an issue
all around the world. Valuing human life is an issue all around the world, and it's devastating
(29:24):
when we see life being taken. And sometimes we turn a blind eye to the wickedness that's happening,
but when we see it, sometimes it is painful to look at. And that's why I give testimony to the
men. Sometimes it's painful to see and you say, I just need to take a minute. I need to take a
minute and this is a lot for me to take in because it's very heavy and it's very hard. But then make
straight paths for your feet. That's what Hebrews tells us, lift your drooping knees and walk forward
(29:49):
faithfully. That's our goal. And we see these very difficult issues and maybe we have friends and
family who may just be totally lost in their thinking about this issue. Let's not just be
silent. Let's not just walk away, but let's look at the evil in the face and try to address it God's
way. Wow. Yep. That's a lot. I know I had none of that in my notes. We didn't talk about any of
(30:16):
this, but real quickly here on my end, and then I just want to hear some of your thoughts about how
you would encourage believers to step forward in terms of thinking about policy. Just real briefly,
this has been a single issue in terms of voting. This has been a very divisive issue that has forced
people to vote. Traditionally, Christians, evangelicals vote Republicans and otherwise.
(30:37):
Recently, we've had some supposed Christian leaders and I would even say a false teacher,
a David French, for example. He wrote on, I think it was the New Yorker and other places advocating
that Christians should make other issues more important than abortion. Even using a,
we can talk about this maybe another time, but using an ill-worded encouragement from John Piper
(31:03):
about morality and the issue of morality of a personhood compared to the morality of policies.
Right. And that's part of our discussion. I think we're going to take on the Christian celebrity
cult personality lead on this season as well. But with that, he's advocating that we as Christians
don't make abortion a single issue. That's what he's advocating. He's actually advocating that
(31:26):
it should be really a non-issue. That's the really-
Shocking.
That's the really sad thing. There are very few people in any political sphere or even
leadership sphere that are advocating for very clear positions on this.
I think we count on one hand some of the ones we even recognize.
(31:48):
Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, that brings me back to what I've talked about in previous episodes. When
you hear Christian leaders, it's rare that you're going to hear what you just said from David French,
that Christian leader would come out and say, it's not a big deal. But silence says something as
well. And that has been true of some very big name Christian institutions and Christian leaders who
(32:10):
have not even celebrated the overturning of Roe vs. White. And again, it's what are you trying to
accomplish by this? You're trying to make friends with the world? Are you trying? And they'll say,
well, you know, women's rights, and they'll use those buzz for it. Women's rights? Is that
what we're talking about? Women's rights? So just embracing those leftist ideas. And so,
(32:32):
if Christian leaders start using that terminology, well, you know, it's a woman's body, they start
to hesitate on that, or they go silent and they don't ever talk about it,
it's a giant red flag. It should be. It should be a red flag to not listen
to that person. Like when there was the Dom's decision that came forward, there were several
(32:54):
Christian leaders, even female Christian leaders, who did not celebrate, in fact, seemed to deride
the decision, and even lamented that Donald Trump was the president, even in the same moment.
And that was a huge part of it. And I think that shows the hand.
Yes. That shows the hand that those supposed leaders, and even there could be believers,
(33:17):
professing believers who find themselves in that camp, that say, yeah, but. Yeah.
If that stance is yeah, but that really is the wrong emphasis.
Yeah. Yeah, but we gave Trump a victory. Can't do it. Can't do it. So the life of the unborn
took a backseat to defeating Trump. Correct.
That is the craziness that is coming from some of our valued institution, Christianity today,
(33:44):
right? Even seminaries.
The Gospel Coalition, some seminaries, some denominations, they're so filled with rage
over this one man that they can't see that abortion is the issue in an election. I mean,
do you want to stand before the Lord someday and say, I just wasn't that concerned about human life?
(34:08):
Really? It does seem to stand tall above a lot of the other issues.
It doesn't make everything else not an issue, but it does stand head and shoulders above the other
issues. And so this is why, you're right, we're not going to tell people who to vote for, but
my goodness, if I meet a professing Christian who says, I'm on the blue train, I'm on the blue agenda,
(34:30):
I've got questions. Right.
You're right. I've got questions again.
Yeah. Let's walk down this path.
I've got questions. I mean, even you have somebody who people potentially, and I'll bring up a straw
man because it's not a real person, but you have people who could be so angry at the MAGA majority
or whatever that is, that they would say, you know what, a man like Tim Waltz, they'll emphasize him
(34:52):
being the family man and everything that everyone saw at the DNC, they'll say that I'm more willing
to vote for that than for Donald Trump. And then you look at the policies that Tim Waltz is promoting,
you look at the most progressive abortion policy in our nation. A very wicked, I would encourage
people to listen to what Al Mueller had to say. I don't think he minced any words when he talked
(35:15):
about Tim Waltz's policy on abortion. The nature of that is he's not a family man,
not the way we think. There can be things where maybe his son has a high view of him and okay,
then they use different means to obtain a child and that's for another conversation. We don't
need to discuss that on this episode, but when it comes to the nature of being a family man,
(35:37):
there's no question that man does not promote family. Right.
He may have a family. Right, right.
But he does not promote family. He actually is advocating for the destruction of it.
Right. Absolutely. So we don't want to get into the whole Trump cult here in this show. Maybe
we'll talk about it some other time, but boy, is it affecting a lot of people. And I'm no fan of
Donald Trump. And again, we talked in the very first episode, this idea of being able to separate
(36:02):
personality from policy. No fan of Donald Trump as a man. Correct.
I've got multiple problems. And we've said that publicly in numerous
texts. Absolutely, for sure.
Character, no question. Oh my goodness. There's so many things.
But we're talking policy here and abortion rises above.
And I'm thankful that the Supreme Court justices who were appointed were appointed.
(36:23):
Yeah. I'm thankful for the three
conservative justices who came in. I'm thankful for the reversal of Roe versus Wade. I know it's not
perfect. No, it's not.
I know that the rollout of turning over things over to the states is very messy and murky.
It is. But I'm grateful that in our constitution no longer.
Right. No longer.
Right. And that's a great thing.
Because you look at 1 John chapter 3 verse 15, everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.
(36:46):
So everyone who's a murderer hates his brother. There's no way that you can murder a baby and
say you love people. Right.
And so as a policy, there's no way that you can say we're loving people by murdering.
Right. It's totally incongruous.
So going down to the states is a step in the right direction. It is constitutional.
10th Amendment is very clear that power that's not delegated by the constitution to the federal
government should go to the states. It's not perfect.
(37:09):
No, it's messy. I'd love to see that.
I want to see murder outlawed in America. Period.
Crazy idea. Because murder in every culture, everywhere of all time, murder has been wrong.
Yes. So I want to get there, but that's a long road.
We've taken a step in the right direction. Without question.
Right. And that's something we can praise God for.
Absolutely. And we should. So when people are embarrassed
(37:31):
or afraid to talk about this, when they're afraid to say that they're thankful or afraid
to say that this is a good thing, that should be a sign to us.
Right. That should be a sign that I wonder where
their priorities are. Right.
I wonder where their allegiance is. Correct.
And I'm not trying to compare them to us and say we're heads and shoulders above.
I'm saying that's a sign for anyone that we're talking to.
(37:54):
If you're talking to a professing believer who says, yeah, it's not really a big deal,
ask your questions. Right?
Have questions. Exactly.
So have questions and ask your questions. Because there's no question that abortion is evil.
There's no question it's clear to take a life as evil and wicked and a murder.
We do understand that there's also a wickedness behind the legalization of abortion towards
(38:16):
population control. And that has not been a hidden issue.
Yeah. That has been a very obvious issue.
Yeah. That the desire for radical
progressives to see population limited by the people themselves, rather than having
to force it in a certain way, oh man, we get into the 90s and we're like, oh,
man, we get into the 1984 territory and things start getting wild.
(38:39):
Or you look at the women's march and the idea that you can emotionally rally millions of women to
put on pink hats and to scream and cry with joy about we have the right to kill our babies.
How wicked does a nation have to be? No, it doesn't make any sense.
(38:59):
And we could laugh about some of the things of, well, how can you even know if you're a woman,
if there's no definition, because one of the justices when asked the question couldn't answer
that. And so there's such insanity around the issue. And as Christians, we need to see that.
We need to see that there's insanity. We need to see that there's people who are not in their
right mind because their minds are darkened. Right.
(39:21):
Truly, their minds are darkened. So let's be light.
Amen. Let's be light in a voice of reason to help
people see the insanity, to help them see the upside down world that they live in.
Let's not become radicalized and sensationalized ourselves, but let's be very clear
on what is light and what is darkness. Amen. Another good bow tied on the discussion.
(39:42):
Well done. Well, that was a lot.
That was a lot. We've taken on some hard issues the last couple of episodes and we have some more
coming up. So as you stay tuned to the thinking tree, we're going to continue to engage on
really prominent political issues and we promise it will be, if God allows, it'll be very
enlightening to say the least and should be good for holiday conversation around the table.
(40:07):
We're here to help. If nothing else.
Well, we pray this episode has helped you to renew your minds and reform your hearts.
We'll see you next time on the thinking tree.
Welcome to The Thinking Tree, a podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.
(00:04):
I'm Adam Sanchez.
And I'm Jeff No.
And today we are taking on the issue of abortion.
All right, as we continue our series talking about political issues of our day,
there perhaps is no bigger issue than this one.
Yeah, this one's, yeah, this is the giant of them all, probably for Christians. It should be, at
(00:29):
least. It should be. And yet we have found in our time, even in this last election cycle,
that it seems to be waning in terms of Christian support.
Yes.
And that is concerning.
It is concerning. Even though the DAP's decision overturned Roe v. Wade,
which was an interesting development in our country, it then became even more controversial
(00:52):
because now we're talking about states versus federal and it got kind of muddled. I'm not
sure Christians even know where we stand right now.
So that's a great point. So to that end, our question for today is how should Christians
think about and respond to the issue of abortion? What once was such a clear issue of immorality and
(01:13):
sinfulness has now-
Federally.
Federally has became, as you mentioned, Roe v. Wade in 1973, became a national allowance
that then confused the nature of what abortion is and even the best ways to deal with very
difficult issues, very difficult issues of raising children and family, a lot of things were at play.
(01:36):
Right.
Now, historically, Christians have made this a single issue, meaning that this would be a
deciding factor, the deciding factor in which party they would vote for, historically.
Yeah.
What we find today is that is not necessarily the case for many Christians. Many Christians,
we'll get into that in a second actually. Historically, Democrats stand on one side,
(01:59):
Republicans have stood on another. Historically, not true in every case.
Not every candidate.
Not every candidate, but generally speaking, and this is general not just for the presidential
elections, but also in terms of Senate races and House of Representatives, that generally,
the Democrat party supports abortion and really even extending time often.
(02:20):
It's an extreme, yeah, absolutely.
Of what is allowed in terms of even killing children up until the moment they're born.
Yeah.
Up until the moment of what they call viability.
And some Republicans have also made allowances that have compromised the issue as well. So it's
not always black and white.
Not always 100 black and white. Generally, Republicans have stood on the side of a right to life.
(02:42):
And the platforms have usually laid that out pretty clearly.
As part of their purpose with even propaganda when it comes to gaining support. So that's
kind of the history. It's been a divisive issue associated with women's rights. This goes back
to why it even became a law, a constitutional right supposedly in 1973. And it was on the heels of
(03:03):
women's rights movement, which is on the heels of the civil rights movement.
Right.
And so you see those things kind of flow into each other. Now for the secular person,
they just view this simply through this lens of a woman's or person, right, not even a woman anymore,
a person's right to choose. There's even this new term called just bodily autonomy.
Right.
That I should be able to do whatever I want with me and no one should ask any questions. I think
(03:26):
is what the vice presidential candidate currently, not the vice president, but her candidate said is
don't ask basically.
Yeah.
Which I do remember another older thing of don't ask, don't tell, but we'll get into
that when the issue calls for it. For Christians, so the secular mind views it that way. Christians
(03:46):
usually just see this as the sixth commandment, thou shall not kill.
Right.
That is very clear. We do not take life.
Well, yeah, and absolutely. And that's our standard, but it's also, by the way,
it's also the standard in our founding documents. Declaration of Independence is the right to life is
literally there. And in the constitution, the 14th amendment, it literally is equal protection
(04:08):
under the law, including life, liberty, and property. I mean, that's what always blows my mind
is that we've not only gone against the Bible, we've gone against our own founding documents on
this issue for so long. It's shocking that people don't know that and Christians should know that.
Yeah. And it's part of how our nation was founded and very uniquely.
Right.
(04:28):
Because that is something that is unique compared to other nations on this planet.
And by the way, that's why the whole debate over personhood matters because that's the response
from those in the Democratic Party. Well, that's just a fetus, it's not a person. That's why the
whole debate over the science matters. I remember when slaves weren't people. I remember when women
weren't people. Exactly. It's one of the best arguments to make is to compare slavery to
(04:56):
a helpless child. Yeah, and help with the same term.
Right. Correct. Correct.
When we're talking about how people feel.
Yep.
Now, we can be clear, I don't think we need to belabor the point that there is no biblical passage
that would advocate a pro-abortion position.
Right.
So it is very unfortunate then when some supposed Christian leaders take that stance and say that
it's allowed because there's this small evil and they can do this greater good in response.
(05:21):
Yeah.
We'll get to that, but there is a fallacy within that thinking because there's no basis.
Right.
There's no biblical basis for supporting abortion. There are these what if arguments
that they'll often use, the situations of...
They will always use by the way.
Yes.
Always. This is always the argument that comes from the left.
What do you do in a situation where the mother's life is in danger and now you have to choose?
(05:45):
So Christians need to be aware of the situational examples that are going to get used if you're
going to be able to properly discuss this issue.
Yeah, without just getting stuck.
Or emotional.
Right.
Or getting into an argument, which we're not called to do.
We don't need to argue over these things. I think that issue of a mother in trouble
and child is... I mean, it's a horrible situation.
(06:06):
Oh yeah.
If you think about it. If there is a situation that arises where the mother's health is now
in question related to the birth of their child, that is so difficult and we should
be compassionate for such a situation. We should also recognize though that the decision
in that situation of which life to preserve, whether it's the life of the baby, the life
of the mother, that is going to be sought after with a great wisdom and care with even
(06:29):
considering the viability of either who would have a better chance to live and to survive
in such a case. And it would be such an extreme case. We don't need split hairs on all the
nuances of it, but all of that wouldn't have nothing to do with a policy.
Right.
None of that has to do with a policy to allow to kill. That would be which life do we seek
to preserve.
Right.
And then you go that way and maybe one of them makes it, maybe the other one doesn't,
(06:52):
maybe both survive.
Yeah.
But it has nothing to do with a policy to kill.
To the idea that we are going to take a very small percentage of births and we're going
to say-
Exceedingly small.
Because this could happen in 0.05% of cases, we are now going to make this broad policy
for 100% of the cases. It's such a logical fallacy. It's not even, it's laughable.
(07:18):
It's not in the realm of reality.
Right.
And we could even ask how many of the abortions that were performed last year were in this
situation of a mother's life in danger.
Right.
And they had to choose the mother over the baby. And then I would ask how many times
was the baby chosen over the mother. And when you look at that percentage,
the answer is zero.
(07:38):
Yeah.
And zero number of abortions. Zero percent of abortions has the baby's life been chosen
over the mother. It's no longer part of the same scenario at that point.
Correct.
Yeah. And the caring for a whole person's life, the womb to the tomb mentality,
that's the other big one used by the and campaign and others as well.
There's this idea that unless you care for everyone's whole life with an equity stance,
(08:04):
not with a careful consideration, but just those buzzwords, right?
Unless you pursue that kind of socialist mindset that you have no basis to even disallow
abortion. That's another argument that's used is that you can't be against abortion
and not care for the rest of a person's life.
(08:24):
And just step back and think about what that argument is. I mean, think about it.
This person is saying to you, look, if you will not fund the cost of that entire child's life,
it would be better to kill it.
That's what they're saying.
That is exactly what they're saying.
Which is insane.
It's insane. Exactly. It's absolutely crazy. Yeah.
(08:44):
And even to expect who to pay for the baby's life. There is no other government or situation
on the planet that takes such a stance where the health and welfare of an individual is taken on
by society as a whole. So that idea is really flawed to begin with.
(09:05):
For sure.
There's no government that does it. There's no people group that does it.
When we think about caring for the whole life of a person, we would say yes, yes and amen.
We should care for the whole life of a person. As believers, we do. You and I do. We care for people
from the womb to the tomb. There's no issue with that term. It's an issue when it's used to divide
on the abortion issue to say, well, you only care when it's a baby's life, but you don't care
(09:30):
when they're older. And I would say, no, I have receipts. I can show you the evidence of caring for
people after they're born and caring for them in really hard situations. And our church does a
phenomenal job. I think our care team is a huge blessing to so many, not just in those who are
birth, you know, in the birth years, but even those who are older and caring for our senior saints as
(09:50):
well, because as believers, we care for people, period. Whether they're in the womb or whether
they're older saints or anywhere in between, we care for people.
Yeah. But the argument's always to government.
That's the thing, right?
Going back to that issue, policy.
Going back, yep.
Yeah, exactly. The government's going to have to care for this child. Tax money's going to have to
care for this child, not churches, not people, because that's not even on their radar in that
(10:15):
argument. It's just, okay, well, fine. If you're going to force this baby to be born, and they'll
say that, then the government should care for it for the rest of its life.
And therefore, that's why we need Democrat-led cities, because the Republican policies don't
promote social welfare. So if you are going to preserve life and say, vote for no abortion,
(10:36):
then you need Democrat policymakers who are going to care for the people and give government money
for them for the rest of their life.
Yeah, that's all I'm saying.
And that cycle repeats. And what do we see with Democratic-led cities?
Democrat-led cities and states have in no way shown themselves to be truly either capable or
effective in caring for poor and marginalized people.
(11:00):
Right. Look at the homeless rate.
When you look at the homeless rate, when you look at the... The numbers around poverty are stunning
in large cities. Stunning.
The fentanyl rate.
It's insane how much our large cities do not care for people, even though they have so many
programs that say they do. That's what's insane. So much money is put forward, and yet so little
(11:25):
result. And then they want people to keep voting. This is actually what disenfranchises really,
I would say, minority communities in larger cities is when they see the years and the decades of no
change. Then they say, you know what? I'm going to punch a different ticket.
Right.
Because I've had enough of that.
I've had enough lemonade. Let me go to orange juice.
(11:47):
Right.
The lemonade didn't help me out. So let me go to the orange juice.
I know it's a silly, silly statement.
And we can be honest, it doesn't mean the Republicans are going to do anything either.
It doesn't. They just want something new because they've had that.
It's just shifting the money to a different group. Because as I said a couple of weeks ago,
a couple of episodes ago, when an entire industry is built around a problem,
(12:10):
the last thing you want to do is solve the problem.
Right. Because that's their livelihood.
That's their cash flow. So you've got all these groups getting rich because of
all of these things, fentanyl overdoses, homelessness, crime, poverty. It's all a
moneymaker. So they're not going to fix the problem.
Yeah.
But they're going to demand more tax dollars, millions, billions. And they're all living it up.
(12:31):
Yeah.
And they're not solving the problem. So-
And we're working in nonprofit is something that I see all the time. And maybe it's another episode
that we devote to thinking through it. But in terms of helping people find legitimate solutions
to care for themselves, that is something that governments are extremely poor and limited in
doing.
Right.
You want to talk about the inability of government. I think it's seen at kind of two main fronts.
(12:54):
One, efficiency. Governments are not efficient.
Right.
And so you talk about how bad governments are. And their efficiency is number one. Number two,
caring for the least.
Yeah.
They're really not good at that.
Right.
What is the church supposed to do? Care for the least.
Right. Well, how do you... We know this from pastoral ministry. How do you walk somebody
through an addiction or through a deeply seated problem in their heart? It takes constant care.
(13:19):
Well, you just mentioned the word walk.
You walk with them.
You walk with them.
Right.
That's not an instant moment.
All the time. Government can't do it.
And it's not throwing money at somebody.
Right.
It's not throwing a program at them.
Right.
And here's the hardest part. With that, we know that it requires heart change.
Yeah.
And that heart change doesn't come with our ability. It comes by God. But God often uses us,
(13:40):
his people,
Sure.
... to bring about the scales falling off the eyes and the soft heart that comes. So the problems
are never going to be solved with earthly means.
Right.
The problems can only be solved by means that are outside of us.
Yeah.
And truly God changing hearts and the God making ways. There are things we can do,
but the things we can do is not vote for policies.
(14:02):
Right.
That's not how we're gonna find the solutions.
And we'll be very sad if we place our hope in those policies because we're gonna see over time
that they don't actually fix anything.
Right.
And that's what we've seen with the care for the poor and the marginalized as an emphasis
over caring for the aborted baby.
(14:22):
Right.
They try to take our eyes away from the issue of that unborn baby.
Right.
And instead take our eyes to, we'll care for these social programs.
Right.
If you care for these social programs, that's how you really can care. And that's how you
can encourage women to not abort their baby.
Right.
That's their tactic and it's not a legitimate one.
And the core issue is this is a human life that has great value.
(14:44):
Correct.
In the Imago Dei made in the image of God.
Yes.
And must be protected.
Amen.
Must be.
We learned that from Genesis 1.
Right.
That's what you just mentioned there. Three chapters later, we have some of the most
heinous things occur. The first murder.
Cain kills his brother Abel and then just a few verses later there's this man named Lamech.
(15:05):
Right.
And he's boasting about his murderous heart, how quick he is to kill a man for striking
him, for speaking poorly of him.
Yeah.
How quick he is to kill a young man. Now the rationale for those murderous hearts of Cain
and Lamech, that was anger and maybe we don't think of abortion as only in that realm,
but think about another one, self-preservation.
(15:26):
Yeah.
Now that argument is often used as a rationale for abortion. Another one is a falling countenance.
That's what Cain had. Today we might call that depression.
Yeah.
We might call that discouragement.
Right.
That's also a word that would be used in the rationale for abortion today.
And then Lamech talked about vengeance as well. I don't know if that's a direct comparison today,
(15:47):
but I note those things because I don't think that that's so disconnected from the heart of
a desire to abort a baby today. Before we go to those extreme examples that are really intense,
just think for a moment about the phrase, my body, my choice. It really is about what a person
(16:07):
desires, what they want for themselves, that they recognize with a baby that a woman could see life
is going to be more difficult with children, that there are going to be fewer opportunities for her
to generate income, fewer opportunities for her to pursue the things that she wants preference wise.
Right.
There are going to be the burdens and the costs of childcare. She's going to be dependent
(16:28):
upon somebody else. Part of this is what we recognize as God's design for the family,
where the woman carries the baby on purpose and the man is to provide for his wife and for his
children. Now we know that we live in a broken world where that doesn't happen, that doesn't
work the right way. That doesn't mean God's way isn't good. Just because our ways are broken,
(16:49):
doesn't mean God's ways are bad. We do need to make that distinction because oftentimes
the secular world will try to back us into a corner and say, well, you just need to solve
this other problem. It's like, well, the problem is deeper. The problem is far deeper than you
think. The problem is not just fatherlessness. The problem is not just that there's no economic
opportunity for a single woman. The problem is the nature of sin and that's something the government
(17:12):
can never solve.
Correct.
So as they look at that, they're looking at a problem that they can't address, that they're
trying to put a bandaid on a gunshot wound and only the church has answers for these things.
Only the true church of Jesus has answers for these things. But when we look at something
so intense about killing someone to get it, now that's the heart of Kane and Lamech saying,
(17:34):
I want something so bad, I'm willing to kill.
I want my lifestyle. I want a certain standard of living. I don't want to be tied down to this
other person.
And then we do one evil to make up for another.
Yeah. And that's, by the way, that's the third case that people will throw at us, right? They'll
(17:56):
say, well, there are those, there's that small percentage where a woman is raped and it's tragic
and it's awful. And I mean, who wouldn't recognize that that's awful?
That's evil. It's horrendous.
And I can't imagine, and we should just say this, can't imagine what it would mean to have
to carry that child to term being a rape victim. But what's the alternative? Like you said,
(18:20):
to do a second evil, to snuff out a life, to punish the child for the sins of the father.
I mean, how many people would say, okay, let's just say that child's been born. How many people
would say, okay, that child has a wicked father. He's a murderer. He's a rapist. We should just,
(18:41):
we should just kill the child. So he or she doesn't have to grow up under that. Now I know
what they're, what they really are stressing is the emotional turmoil and pain that the woman has
to, every time she sees that child, she's going to remember that. We're compassionate. We sympathize
with that. But do you know some of the stories that have come out of that rape victims who have
given birth to children and they've gotten past that by God's grace and they're able to see that
(19:05):
child as a gift and raise that child beautifully and that child flourishes and becomes very,
very, you know, contributes to society. And there's many of those stories out there.
Yeah. What if that life had just been snuffed out because this was going to be hard. So,
so when those, when that issue is thrown at you as a Christian, the first reaction is, I get it.
(19:26):
That is awful. Yeah. Don't delegitimize that. Right. Right. That is a horrendous one.
It's also exceedingly rare. Very rare. That's not, that's not the, you look at the number of
abortions, that's not going to be a 50% 60% issue. No, it's going to be less than one. It's going to
be exceedingly rare. Yeah. But we still respond with compassion. Correct. And we can think with
discernment. Okay. Well, it's a horrible thing, but we don't do another evil to cover up the first
(19:51):
one. Right. So you think about even how David had Uriah murdered because of his first sinful
indiscretion with Bathsheba. Yeah. He tried to cover up one evil with another evil and it only
got worse. That was a nature. And what was the result? His first child was taken from him.
Right. And he was devastated. But he was still devastated about that child. Right. And we've
(20:13):
lost a compassion and a devastation about a baby, about a child. So we, we focus so much on the
devastation of the mother, which is, is devastating. Yeah. Right. But we need to think also about the
devastation of a baby. Yeah. And we've lost that compassion in our society. We have so limited
that we are more compassionate about animals and animal shelter. Right. Than we are about babies
(20:37):
who haven't been born yet. Right. We've dehumanized them. Correct. And that is a tragic reality that
we have here in the United States. When we think about that, even that poor life, you know, you
mentioned the situation of a rape victim. There is a story I know about in Rwanda, you know, the
(20:57):
genocide that occurred, which is very painful. There was a lot of violence and a lot of wickedness
that went on. And one woman was, was, was attacked and, and was made pregnant by this very wicked,
evil man who even, who even harmed her in the midst of it. And she carried the baby to full term
because it wasn't legal to, it's not. And most cultures, it's especially in poor cultures,
(21:22):
not legal to pursue abortion, especially in Africa. And so she carried the baby to full term. And then
she gave the baby up for adoption. And so that baby was raised in a town further south from her
by parents who actually were believers, which it was incredible. And even then there's a little
note I would make here in the United States, you look at the number of adoptive parents
(21:44):
are predominantly Christian. Yeah. Predominantly Christian. And we have one of the worst such,
like dynamics and the world is getting worse at this by the, by the minute too, for adoption.
We, we as Christians should be willing to adopt. Doesn't mean everyone is going to have the means,
but Christians do have the proclivity to adopt. We're like 80%, I think, of the, of the adoption
(22:06):
rate in the United States, but our adoption process is very bad in the United States. Not only is the
foster system bad, but yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. And so there's not a clean way, an easy way to go
from a baby who is, who is not wanted to a family who wants to and can afford it because our adoption
process is very expensive because people stand to make money in the middle rather than saying,
(22:30):
Hey, you have the financial means of care for this baby. You know, because the family that that baby
came from didn't have the financial means. And now this other does, but now they lose 20 grand,
30 grand, 40 grand because they had to pay just all these process fees. Anyways, there's a lot of
issues in that, but going back to the story of Rwanda, this young man, he grows up and under
this Christian household, he gets saved and he becomes a believer and now he wants to serve the
(22:54):
Lord. Well, as he grew up, he knew a little bit about his story. He wanted to meet his mom. He
went back and she was, she was willing to meet him, but she was scared because we talk about the
difficulty of seeing, you know, the, the, the attacker in the, in the face of her son. So they
did meet, they met and she couldn't handle it. It was too painful for her. And that was devastating
(23:19):
to hear that testimony. I can't even imagine what that would have been like, whether for her or for
that young man, that young man did nothing. But to your point, what if they had killed him because
he was the child of a, an attacker of a rapist, just by, by his lineage, what if they had killed
him simply because of that? Instead, no, he was, he was not killed. He was raised by a Christian
(23:40):
family and he's part of a church and he sought even to reconcile with his mom and she was unwilling
and he never hated her because the love of Christ compelled him. He said, okay, I tried, I wanted to,
I wanted to have a relationship, but you know what? This is the evil in this world. And so even his
own mother wouldn't accept him, but he had parents who did and he had a church who didn't, he had a
(24:01):
church to serve in. And so we can see even an immense evil, God can still do good. And thinking
biblically is what led to that good. Right. And it wasn't a policy that led to that. And that's a
painful reality and it was a hard situation. There's no good way. There's no, there's no,
there's no intrinsic joy in just doing the hard things, but in hindsight, we can look back and
(24:22):
say, wow, God was doing more than we imagined. So we can't advocate for killing and for death
when, when there's an opportunity that God could have moving forward. There's no, there's no
rationale for that. Yeah. And let me just caution our Christian listeners. Sometimes we want to
leave wiggle room on that because we understand the pain. So we say, well, look, we're against
(24:44):
abortion, but you know what? Sometimes because of rape or because of this, I'll allow for it. Then
you violated the principle that you started with. That is the value of human life in the amargot
day. So don't empathize, but don't give in on that because you actually look double-minded
when you do that. I could go deeper. I mean, I know we're 25 minutes in, but I'll give one more
(25:08):
story. I was at this home and it's called a baby's home out in Uganda and in Uganda, they don't allow
abortion. So people find a way, the human heart always finds a way. We talk about, if we're talking
about gun control, which I know is not on the slate for this season, we'll talk about another time,
but with gun control, for example, if you take away guns, people will find other things. Yes.
I'm not, we can talk about the nuance, but you will, whether it's by knives, which we saw
(25:33):
stabbings recently in Germany and UK, it's in the UK or whether it's by hands or whether it's by rocks,
you name it. But humans will pursue evil any way that they can in Uganda because they can't pursue
abortion. They'll leave babies in gutters. Exposure. They'll leave babies in literal dumpster trash bins.
(25:53):
They'll leave babies out in, just out, just out in the middle of a field and expect that some animal
will come and take care of that baby. Wow. Not take care of them to love them. Oh, right. But to end
their life. That's the nature of life. And in Uganda, life is very cheap. Now to God, it's not. To
God, life is immensely valuable. It's in fact the most valuable of all the things on this earth.
(26:17):
Human life is the most valuable and we treat it so cheap. As you mentioned, we devalue human life.
We emphasize even animals or even the trees over humans. But this home exists to rescue babies.
The admission, how do you get in is by not having anyone to care for you, is being abandoned. That's
the admission. Could you imagine like, we're used to admission being something we strive for, right?
(26:41):
You wanna earn the grades. I wanna get admitted, so I'm gonna look at all these qualifications.
The qualification to enter into this home is having no one to care for you, is truly being
abandoned, truly being an orphan, as the Bible even describes. What's so beautiful about that
home though, is that these kids are given an opportunity. They're given an opportunity that
the kids who aren't rescued don't get. The home can only support like 30 kids at a time. It's not
(27:06):
hundreds. It's 30 and it's sadly one of the least supported ministries because people don't see it.
You don't see babies and infants. But the goal of this ministry is to see that child go with a
loving family, whether that's maybe somehow a related family, which sadly it's not. Mostly,
it's to a Christian family in the church. Christian family in the church who says,
(27:29):
we can take on this child, we can care for them, we can raise them, we can raise them as our own.
And they care for them. Sometimes they need to go to an orphan home, but here's what I noted
when I was there. And I've been to this home several times. I was with a couple of godly men,
one is a pastor in the area. One was actually rescued off of the streets when he was eight
years old. And so he lived as an orphan, as a street kid, and was rescued by the same ministry,
(27:53):
grew up in the orphan home. Both men, at one point we were with our people, our travelers,
and holding babies and hanging out with them and little toddlers as well. And I looked around,
I didn't see the guys. I'm like, where'd they go? And then I hear them, I hear them talking,
and they were downstairs. So I went downstairs to go see them. And they were downstairs ironing
clothes. And I said, you know, brothers, why are you down here? And they looked at me with just
(28:20):
red eyes saying, it is so hard to be here. These are men who are tough. I mean, one of them grew
up on the streets, grew up on the streets selling scrap metal, I mean, sniffing glue, all the things.
They said, it's so hard to be here because we have, you know, they each have their own wife,
they each have their own kids, and they're both believers following the Lord. They said, it's so
(28:41):
hard because we can't imagine what would bring a person, a woman to do this. And we see those
kids in our heartbreaks because we see our kids in them. Now the pastor, he said, I need to bring
my kids back next month because I bring them here to play with the other kids a couple of times a
year just so that they see that there are other kids who don't have anything and we can love and
(29:01):
care for them, even just bring a slight little bright spot in their week by coming in. We see
this devastation everywhere. I only bring the story not to say the argument is from experience,
the argument is from God's Word, why we value life. What I'm highlighting is that this is an issue
all around the world. Valuing human life is an issue all around the world, and it's devastating
(29:24):
when we see life being taken. And sometimes we turn a blind eye to the wickedness that's happening,
but when we see it, sometimes it is painful to look at. And that's why I give testimony to the
men. Sometimes it's painful to see and you say, I just need to take a minute. I need to take a
minute and this is a lot for me to take in because it's very heavy and it's very hard. But then make
straight paths for your feet. That's what Hebrews tells us, lift your drooping knees and walk forward
(29:49):
faithfully. That's our goal. And we see these very difficult issues and maybe we have friends and
family who may just be totally lost in their thinking about this issue. Let's not just be
silent. Let's not just walk away, but let's look at the evil in the face and try to address it God's
way. Wow. Yep. That's a lot. I know I had none of that in my notes. We didn't talk about any of
(30:16):
this, but real quickly here on my end, and then I just want to hear some of your thoughts about how
you would encourage believers to step forward in terms of thinking about policy. Just real briefly,
this has been a single issue in terms of voting. This has been a very divisive issue that has forced
people to vote. Traditionally, Christians, evangelicals vote Republicans and otherwise.
(30:37):
Recently, we've had some supposed Christian leaders and I would even say a false teacher,
a David French, for example. He wrote on, I think it was the New Yorker and other places advocating
that Christians should make other issues more important than abortion. Even using a,
we can talk about this maybe another time, but using an ill-worded encouragement from John Piper
(31:03):
about morality and the issue of morality of a personhood compared to the morality of policies.
Right. And that's part of our discussion. I think we're going to take on the Christian celebrity
cult personality lead on this season as well. But with that, he's advocating that we as Christians
don't make abortion a single issue. That's what he's advocating. He's actually advocating that
(31:26):
it should be really a non-issue. That's the really-
Shocking.
That's the really sad thing. There are very few people in any political sphere or even
leadership sphere that are advocating for very clear positions on this.
I think we count on one hand some of the ones we even recognize.
(31:48):
Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, that brings me back to what I've talked about in previous episodes. When
you hear Christian leaders, it's rare that you're going to hear what you just said from David French,
that Christian leader would come out and say, it's not a big deal. But silence says something as
well. And that has been true of some very big name Christian institutions and Christian leaders who
(32:10):
have not even celebrated the overturning of Roe vs. White. And again, it's what are you trying to
accomplish by this? You're trying to make friends with the world? Are you trying? And they'll say,
well, you know, women's rights, and they'll use those buzz for it. Women's rights? Is that
what we're talking about? Women's rights? So just embracing those leftist ideas. And so,
(32:32):
if Christian leaders start using that terminology, well, you know, it's a woman's body, they start
to hesitate on that, or they go silent and they don't ever talk about it,
it's a giant red flag. It should be. It should be a red flag to not listen
to that person. Like when there was the Dom's decision that came forward, there were several
(32:54):
Christian leaders, even female Christian leaders, who did not celebrate, in fact, seemed to deride
the decision, and even lamented that Donald Trump was the president, even in the same moment.
And that was a huge part of it. And I think that shows the hand.
Yes. That shows the hand that those supposed leaders, and even there could be believers,
(33:17):
professing believers who find themselves in that camp, that say, yeah, but. Yeah.
If that stance is yeah, but that really is the wrong emphasis.
Yeah. Yeah, but we gave Trump a victory. Can't do it. Can't do it. So the life of the unborn
took a backseat to defeating Trump. Correct.
That is the craziness that is coming from some of our valued institution, Christianity today,
(33:44):
right? Even seminaries.
The Gospel Coalition, some seminaries, some denominations, they're so filled with rage
over this one man that they can't see that abortion is the issue in an election. I mean,
do you want to stand before the Lord someday and say, I just wasn't that concerned about human life?
(34:08):
Really? It does seem to stand tall above a lot of the other issues.
It doesn't make everything else not an issue, but it does stand head and shoulders above the other
issues. And so this is why, you're right, we're not going to tell people who to vote for, but
my goodness, if I meet a professing Christian who says, I'm on the blue train, I'm on the blue agenda,
(34:30):
I've got questions. Right.
You're right. I've got questions again.
Yeah. Let's walk down this path.
I've got questions. I mean, even you have somebody who people potentially, and I'll bring up a straw
man because it's not a real person, but you have people who could be so angry at the MAGA majority
or whatever that is, that they would say, you know what, a man like Tim Waltz, they'll emphasize him
(34:52):
being the family man and everything that everyone saw at the DNC, they'll say that I'm more willing
to vote for that than for Donald Trump. And then you look at the policies that Tim Waltz is promoting,
you look at the most progressive abortion policy in our nation. A very wicked, I would encourage
people to listen to what Al Mueller had to say. I don't think he minced any words when he talked
(35:15):
about Tim Waltz's policy on abortion. The nature of that is he's not a family man,
not the way we think. There can be things where maybe his son has a high view of him and okay,
then they use different means to obtain a child and that's for another conversation. We don't
need to discuss that on this episode, but when it comes to the nature of being a family man,
(35:37):
there's no question that man does not promote family. Right.
He may have a family. Right, right.
But he does not promote family. He actually is advocating for the destruction of it.
Right. Absolutely. So we don't want to get into the whole Trump cult here in this show. Maybe
we'll talk about it some other time, but boy, is it affecting a lot of people. And I'm no fan of
Donald Trump. And again, we talked in the very first episode, this idea of being able to separate
(36:02):
personality from policy. No fan of Donald Trump as a man. Correct.
I've got multiple problems. And we've said that publicly in numerous
texts. Absolutely, for sure.
Character, no question. Oh my goodness. There's so many things.
But we're talking policy here and abortion rises above.
And I'm thankful that the Supreme Court justices who were appointed were appointed.
(36:23):
Yeah. I'm thankful for the three
conservative justices who came in. I'm thankful for the reversal of Roe versus Wade. I know it's not
perfect. No, it's not.
I know that the rollout of turning over things over to the states is very messy and murky.
It is. But I'm grateful that in our constitution no longer.
Right. No longer.
Right. And that's a great thing.
Because you look at 1 John chapter 3 verse 15, everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.
(36:46):
So everyone who's a murderer hates his brother. There's no way that you can murder a baby and
say you love people. Right.
And so as a policy, there's no way that you can say we're loving people by murdering.
Right. It's totally incongruous.
So going down to the states is a step in the right direction. It is constitutional.
10th Amendment is very clear that power that's not delegated by the constitution to the federal
government should go to the states. It's not perfect.
(37:09):
No, it's messy. I'd love to see that.
I want to see murder outlawed in America. Period.
Crazy idea. Because murder in every culture, everywhere of all time, murder has been wrong.
Yes. So I want to get there, but that's a long road.
We've taken a step in the right direction. Without question.
Right. And that's something we can praise God for.
Absolutely. And we should. So when people are embarrassed
(37:31):
or afraid to talk about this, when they're afraid to say that they're thankful or afraid
to say that this is a good thing, that should be a sign to us.
Right. That should be a sign that I wonder where
their priorities are. Right.
I wonder where their allegiance is. Correct.
And I'm not trying to compare them to us and say we're heads and shoulders above.
I'm saying that's a sign for anyone that we're talking to.
(37:54):
If you're talking to a professing believer who says, yeah, it's not really a big deal,
ask your questions. Right?
Have questions. Exactly.
So have questions and ask your questions. Because there's no question that abortion is evil.
There's no question it's clear to take a life as evil and wicked and a murder.
We do understand that there's also a wickedness behind the legalization of abortion towards
(38:16):
population control. And that has not been a hidden issue.
Yeah. That has been a very obvious issue.
Yeah. That the desire for radical
progressives to see population limited by the people themselves, rather than having
to force it in a certain way, oh man, we get into the 90s and we're like, oh,
man, we get into the 1984 territory and things start getting wild.
(38:39):
Or you look at the women's march and the idea that you can emotionally rally millions of women to
put on pink hats and to scream and cry with joy about we have the right to kill our babies.
How wicked does a nation have to be? No, it doesn't make any sense.
(38:59):
And we could laugh about some of the things of, well, how can you even know if you're a woman,
if there's no definition, because one of the justices when asked the question couldn't answer
that. And so there's such insanity around the issue. And as Christians, we need to see that.
We need to see that there's insanity. We need to see that there's people who are not in their
right mind because their minds are darkened. Right.
(39:21):
Truly, their minds are darkened. So let's be light.
Amen. Let's be light in a voice of reason to help
people see the insanity, to help them see the upside down world that they live in.
Let's not become radicalized and sensationalized ourselves, but let's be very clear
on what is light and what is darkness. Amen. Another good bow tied on the discussion.
(39:42):
Well done. Well, that was a lot.
That was a lot. We've taken on some hard issues the last couple of episodes and we have some more
coming up. So as you stay tuned to the thinking tree, we're going to continue to engage on
really prominent political issues and we promise it will be, if God allows, it'll be very
enlightening to say the least and should be good for holiday conversation around the table.
(40:07):
We're here to help. If nothing else.
Well, we pray this episode has helped you to renew your minds and reform your hearts.
We'll see you next time on the thinking tree.
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