September 9, 2024 • 37 mins
A podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.
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Episode Transcript
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Welcome to The Thinking Tree, a podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.
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I'm Adam Sanchez.
And I'm Jeff No.
And today we're talking about climate change in the church.
Now I realize I said climate change in the church.
That's when you turn the air conditioning on.
And that's just a matter of what the thermostat is set to. But what I meant to say was climate
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change and the church. That's really what we're taking on today. So we are taking on,
this is our first episode really in the series that we just started last week about political
activism really within the church. And so we want to take on this issue of climate change.
We want to discuss how Christians can respond and even some difficulties that are there as
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we're thinking through the issues. So the question for today, how should Christians think about and
respond to the political issue of climate change? It can be confusing because there's so much stuff
coming at us right now from all these disparate locations, places, some look and feel scientific,
some don't, some are political opinions. Then there's economic pieces to it. It can be
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overwhelming and confusing. So we should probably just start by talking about what the Bible says.
I was about to say, and then there's that part too, where there are Christian leaders who are
giving imperative commands to professing believers to say God's word compels you to vote this way,
to pursue this, even to make your decisions, your purchasing decisions based on these things.
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And you should be worried about it. You hear that too. You should be worried about this is like-
If this doesn't concern you, then-
Then can you be a Christian? This is an existential crisis. That's their favorite phrase.
It's existential and people go, ooh, existential. I need to care about that.
Right, right. More than that, I need to be worried about it. I need to do something now
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because we only have eight years to live is what we've been told. I mean, the language is so extreme.
It is. And I'm glad you're encouraging. Let's start with God's word first. Let's start there.
God's word is not silent on really on any issue. We know that. We have the privilege of studying
God's word and teaching it. You get to teach every single Sunday principles from God's word.
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Here's how we can respond. And so you see, I see constantly God's word is not silent on really any
issue in terms of applying. So as we look at God's word, when we think about this issue of climate
change, there is a co-opting of a biblical principle, meaning being a good steward.
There's this co-opting of mankind, Adam, the original Adam, had a biblical mandate to be a
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steward of creation. We understand that that's a biblical principle. He's made in God's image and
God is creator and sustainer of all things. And so Adam and mankind is to image God in being a
caretaker for all the things. What's interesting though is in that Genesis account, and this is
pre-fault before Adam and Eve fell into sin, Adam or mankind was commanded to subdue and to have
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dominion over specifically the animal kingdom. And God never said have dominion over the plants and
have dominion over the trees. He said have dominion over the animal kingdom and then to be fruitful
and multiply. So mankind's imperative, the command that God gave them before the fall was to
populate the earth. So be fruitful and multiply before sin, and then to rule over the animal
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kingdom. And then the fact that every tree, seed producing tree, was good for food. That's what
was before the fall. So plants are for food before the fall. Nowhere does it say they're for
preservation. Nowhere does it say even that the animal kingdom is for preservation, though they
were to be ruled over but cared for, ruled over and have dominion. So we shouldn't waste plants or
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animals, but it is very clear from the opening pages of God's, we're in Genesis chapter one actually,
when we hear about this, about how God is made in the image of, or man is made in the image of God,
and then man is to have dominion over the animals and then to use the plants for food.
Right.
That's what we see in the opening chapters of Genesis.
Correct. Yeah.
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So where is save the trees?
I know, I'm showing my hand on the issue.
Right. And yeah. And where is this hyper environmentalism coming from? Right?
Stewardship is obviously, it's actually a beautiful concept. Take care of things.
Yes.
But to then say, well, but now the environment is in crisis and somehow God is absent.
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Right? That's the implication. God is not able to maintain the environment and you human beings are
the problem. You have to fix it.
And over issues that are not sin, right? Yeah.
Like we're breaking things over issues that are not actually sin.
And then we're paying more attention to these things that are not actually sin,
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more than the things that are actually sin.
Yeah. Just the whole idea that, and I look, I don't want to make fun of Christians,
but sometimes we're so ignorant to scripture that we would actually, actually come to the conclusion
that God is not managing the environment, that God is not able to be sovereign over the environment.
He needs our help to fix a problem that is out of control as if God's ever out of control.
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Right.
But honestly, there are people sitting in pews and churches that are believing that the government,
imagine this, the governments of the world have to fix this problem.
That they can.
As if government can't, does anything effectively, efficiently, as if we can change nature itself.
It is man trying to sit in the seat of God.
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The arrogance of it is astounding if you stop to think about it.
Even the idea of global warming.
The science, the thing, and we'll talk about this in a moment, but the science doesn't all agree
on that anyways, if we're going to use that term, which nobody enjoys that anymore.
It's just a fight term.
Well, the science, you know, remember what happened during COVID.
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But when we consider even something like global warming, for a second, if we just,
if we just all agreed that it's actually happening and that it's out of our hands, so to speak,
and what's going on, could we also as believers recognize that whatever happens to the world,
like you're mentioning, is under God's rule and reign and that there's actually a planned
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brokenness to this world?
I mean, we read in Romans, the creation is subjected to futility.
It's groaning.
It's groaning, waiting to be remade and renewed.
So wouldn't it even make sense from a biblical theological understanding
that the world would be getting worse?
Yes.
Deteriorating.
Correct.
Isn't that the nature of why we don't live as long as the original people who left the garden and
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lived for hundreds and hundreds of years and then sin soaks into every fiber of our being,
every part of our DNA, every molecule.
And so cancer becomes a deteriorating agent within our,
I mean, doesn't that make sense from biblical understanding?
Even natural law tells you that, that all things, they run out of energy.
They eventually slow down.
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They deteriorate.
They fall apart.
Everything falls apart.
Our bodies are falling apart.
So it seems kind of crazy to stop, like, can you stop your own aging process?
I mean, if I could, I would.
I mean, everyone.
And again, as I'm thinking about what I just said, it doesn't mean non-action on the part
of human beings because we are stewards.
We are caretakers.
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But it's the idea.
And it goes back to something I said in a recent sermon.
It's who do you actually trust the environment to?
Yes, it doesn't mean do nothing.
It doesn't mean put your head in the sand.
Maybe there's some things you could do.
I'm going to recycle.
I'm going to do what I can on my part, but I'm not going to worry and stay up late at night
being concerned that somehow the world is out of control.
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And if human beings don't fix it, what happens?
Yeah.
Right.
So you mean we're not going to stand in front of a,
a United Nations or some other committee and yell and scream like a 14 year old young lady
and blame everyone for the destruction of the world and become a, I mean, I know I'm
hitting the nail on the head for something that happened a few years ago, but what we're
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saying is that is not the Christian's command.
That as good stewards, and we'll talk a little more about the implication of being good stewards,
but as stewards, we're not entrusting the world to our care, but we're trusting God
in his care of all things. And then we are being careful in the way that we engage with
the world around us. Of course.
That's why we don't just throw trash on this. That's why I, I love the, there's a lot of
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movements right now to clean up the ocean. I think that's wonderful. There's a lot of things we can
do, but again, if we're acting, if we're so arrogant as human beings to say we're fixing
the environment or get this wheel, we'll change the weather patterns. The arrogance of man is wild.
Yes. Yes, it is. Now in the church, there's, I mean, we're talking about things from biblical
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perspective on purpose in the church. There is a, I would say growing movement within, whether
we're going to call them evangelicals or we're going to call them the larger world of Christendom,
but there is a growing influence to see Christians care for the climate, climate care, creation care,
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these kinds of things and land preservation really over people. Really. It's an emphasis to care for
the created order outside of mankind. Yep. More than mankind, but it's even coming from the church.
Yes. Such an important point. It's, it's, it's the environment over people. If people die and suffer,
we don't, we're not bothered by that. We're saving the planet. But then when you ask,
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but wait a minute, hold on a second. Aren't we saving the planet for the sake of humanity?
Now they don't know what to say, but they will, they will sit back. And I say they,
those who are pushing these policies from the left, they will sit back and push these policies
at the expense of the poorest in the world. It's, it's either the, the, the intentional blindness to
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it or just the pure power play that it is. And we should talk about that as well. There is a huge
amount of power play in climate change, because if you can convince nations of the world to reshape
their economies based on green policies, do you know how much money is a lot of money to be made
and power now governments can say, look, if you don't live up to these standards, we will do X,
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Y, or Z to force you and take away your rights and take away your privileges unless you come into
line. And then there's always the elite that rises to the top that makes all the money
and accumulates all the power in that system. Imagine this idea. Imagine if your government
were to come to you and say, if you'll just give me more of your income, if you'll allow us to tax
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you more, take more of your money, we will fix the weather. We will fix the environment as if they
can fix anything. Yeah. They can't even fix the potholes in the street or the freeway, let alone
the environment or the weather. And my favorite example of that is, is for how many years have we
said, if you, if you'll just let us take more of your income through taxes, we will fix the homeless
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problem. And every year they get billions of dollars, right? Some federal grants, you know,
tax money, and the problem gets bigger. But a whole bunch of people made a ton of money because
now there's NGOs and charity groups and, and, and government officials and they're all lining their
pockets. And guess what? When you're making money, you don't want to solve that problem.
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Yeah. You want it to go on. Hey, you have your job security. Christians wake up. Yeah. Think.
You know, it's interesting along the, along these lines, you're talking about the policies, even in
cities, right? The policies in cities, at least here in the U S have largely centered around
reducing pollution, reducing, you know, various fumes, various emissions and standards. And that's
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part of the push with, with a green suppose in an air quoting here, green energy, because it's very
difficult to have truly green energy. When you look at what is required even to generate the
machinery needed to, you know, to use, to use green energy, the electricity to power the cars.
Right, right. So it's a very complex issue in that we have to understand those effects. That's part
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of our responsibilities, believers to think through this. But one thing that we should note is that
there is not actually any specific evidence that links a political policy to within our modern era
to having a measurable effect on climate as a whole. Right. There actually is no study, no link
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of a political policy. So any of the agendas, the new green deal, these things, there's zero effect
that is measured by those policies to affect climate. So not to say that we should not be good
stewards. We've just said you should, we should as believers do what you can be good stewards and we
should care appropriately and rightly and appropriately means not over and excessively,
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but just appropriately. But we recognize no political policy has had any measurable change
on the climate. That's an important distinction because they would have us believe otherwise,
that there are certain policies agendas that would have a measurable impact on the environment,
on your life, on my life, on the lives of communities. And that's why they would
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implore us to give them more of our tax money. Yeah. And I think if you're out there and you're
listening, you're a Christian and you're thinking, am I crazy? Has just the weather gone through a
whole bunch of changes over decades and centuries? Yes. There have been ice ages, there have been
warmer periods and it fluctuates. It goes up and down. Guess what? It gets hotter in summer and
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colder in winter. Seasons. I know. Yeah. Time for everything. I've heard about that. I mean, yes,
of course. And so the numbers are so, are so small. And then I'll just tell you something else. And
I know you know this, Adam, because you've been to Africa and other places around the world.
Even if let's just, let's just say we're in a, in a warming period and maybe we are and we,
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it's funny, we haven't actually tracked it for very long. Right. It's a very modern,
very modern, but let's just say, let's just, we'll just stipulate that we're on a slight warming
period. More warmth around the world. It would change some cultures, but overall it's a net
positive because more warmth means more crops, means more food. Actually the worst thing that
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could happen would be colder ice ages can kill. Yeah. But global warming is actually not, if you
talk to experts, they'll say, no, it's actually be, it'd be an okay. If we went up a degree, it'd be a good thing for the earth.
There'd be more areas that could be, like you said, farmable, would yield greater crops.
Right. And it's not to say that we're advocating for pollution to that end. We're not advocating
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for not caring for, for hysteria. Right. It's the, even if that was God's plan. Yeah. If God's plan
is to raise the world's temperature by a degree, could we even yet see potential goodness? Yes.
Coming out of that. Correct. I think the answer is yes. Correct. Yes, we could. Real briefly,
before we continue on, just a note about our theological understanding of conservation.
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I think it's important that listeners, especially professing believers, would consider their
theology and even their eschatological, their end times thinking, their end times theology about this
issue of conservation. Yeah. So we think about the implications of various end times theological
positions. You did a great series recently on unshakable. So just real quick note, unshakable
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is the podcast that Jeff runs. And so that's more of kind of just a teaching opportunity on various
things that we don't have time for in the pulpit on Sundays, but are still important things in the
life of believers. And so I'd encourage you listeners to go check that out. But on that,
you did a series on various eschatological end times positions. I think important note is when
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we think about conservation, there could be a theological position or positions that misunderstand
this issue because of what they think is going to happen. Well, yeah, it goes back to what you said
earlier about, do we expect things to deteriorate or do we expect them to improve? And those who are
post-millennial, who take that position that the world's going to get better and actually the world
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is going to turn to Christ en masse, 90% plus percent of people are going to come to know Christ.
And that means there's going to be this great renewal of the earth and all these different things.
Yeah, that is nowhere in the Bible. It really is confusing to me. I actually see the opposite. I see
both in scripture and just with my own eyes and ears, you see things actually getting darker
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in this world. And so, yeah, our theological positions do have an impact on what we think
about as that climate change for sure. Yeah. So let's think about a couple of things here as we
look at Christians responding to climate change. I think on the front end, we talked about what
does the Bible teach. We said the Bible does not teach conservationism as a theological imperative,
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but rather we are stewards, period. And so that's a biblical and theological premise. So you won't
ever find anywhere in scripture, God saying, save the trees. That statement, and I'm not making fun
of it, I'm saying literally you will not find that. But what you will find in God's word is, thou
shall not kill. Do not kill. And that's for another episode, but I'm just making that statement. There
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are biblical imperatives and an imperative is a command. There are biblical commands that God has
in his word, but saving the trees or being a conservationist is not one of those commands.
So as we're looking at the practical implications of a steward, we're considering, well, how do we
do that then? We're not saying I must do this. We're saying God has called me to be faithful and to
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be a steward of all that I am and all that I have. So now how do I do that? Well, that's a very
different premise than saying I must go and do this. Yeah. And like you said, in all areas,
we're good stewards. And actually you think about it, that means being a good steward in the sense
that we are doing the right research and that we're actually, rather than responding to an issue
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emotionally, psychologically, without actually checking God's word, without looking for good
truth sources, we're not stewarding that well either. So it's easy to get fooled. And again,
the left knows this going back to what we talked about in our last episode, they want to smuggle
in and they've actually used that word, smuggle in all kinds of, of propaganda about the climate
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about the climate and to rebrand things. Like you said, creation care sounds so nice.
We want to be about that, right? So their strategy has been if we can get some high level
Christian institutions to sign on to creation care, if we can get some marquee names to sign
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a statement, it's going to trickle down. It's going to get to the pastoral level, which gets it to the
pew level. And if enough Christians see their favorite Christian preacher slash celebrity saying
this should be an issue, well then it's on my radar. Maybe I need to consider creation care.
And again, the left believes that they can just suck away just a few percentage points of the
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Christian vote that they're going to win elections. So there's a strategy here.
Yeah. It's not, it's not as simple as seeking the best for whether it's neighbor or even
nebulously the environment. It's never as simple as that. There's agendas, there's something
happening, right? There's things behind the scenes. And that brings us to what we encouraged in the
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last episode, which has any policy you need to ask questions. You need to ask questions,
do your research and understand what is the issue. So when we look at the use of electric cars,
you know, the widespread use of electric vehicles, one thing that we've seen here in California,
cause that's where we are, is that truly the electrical grid cannot support purely electric
vehicles in our state. Now we have, we have, I think we have the most populous state. Do we not?
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I think we do. In the U S we have almost 10% of the United States population resides in California,
officially unofficially, depending on which number you're looking at, but over 30 million people. So
with that, we cannot support electrically that many vehicles. So that's one issue where we can't go
that way much, much as the current governor wants us to, we can't go that way. Just very practically,
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what is the economic impact going to be? If people have to trade in their gasoline powered
vehicles that they've had, and maybe they paid it off and don't have to make a payment on it.
And now they have to buy this new vehicle and they can't afford the nature of what is the impact on
the families who are, who are using gasoline vehicles even further. How many families do we
know over the years? And maybe not know personally, but it's been an issue politically, the support in
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Detroit, the support in other States, you know, in, in, you know, Texas now they're doing a lot of
manufacturer work of vehicles. What about those families who are working on gasoline ice, you know,
combustion engines, who are dependent on, on support that this goes back to Henry Ford, even
in the creation of the factory and the, and the five day work, we can blame him for that. I mean,
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there's a lot we can talk about historically here, but what happens to those families then who are
dependent on, on the manufacturer and the maintenance. And what about our, all of our, our body shop
and, and mechanics that are dependent on taking care of combustion engines. And if we get rid
just in one day of all the electric vehicles, let's even say our grid could support it.
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What do we do with all the families who are dependent upon the nature of the manufacturer
and the repair and the support of gasoline vehicles, the whole economy is going to come
crumbling down in a moment. It's, and again, it's, it's, it's, it's caring for the environment at,
and it's ludicrous, but even saying that at the expense of people. Yeah. We did this with COVID,
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we put people's businesses out. We just, nobody voted for this. The government just said, just
declared as if they had the right to do that. Sorry, your business isn't essential and closed
them down and destroyed businesses and families and, and people's lives. They didn't vote for that.
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Yeah. And now they want to do the same thing with these mandates and these standards. Yeah,
you're right. There's tire businesses that are built on fossil fuels. And suddenly you're saying
that either you go out of business and, and sorry about losing your home and everything else,
or you completely invest millions of dollars to redo your business. But again, they didn't vote
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for this, but you just come from on high and say, you have to do this. It's what do you do? The truck
driver who's invested maybe even millions in his own business to buy a truck and everything. And
then all of a sudden it changes. And now truck drivers are the backbone of the U S being able
to supply our agriculture really across the United States. So now food becomes more scarce
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and difficult across the U S because we can't support, you know, shipping things out. I mean,
we produce so much here in California, our agriculture supports the nation. It's, you know,
it's well over the 10% of our population that's supported by our agriculture here in California.
Where are the charging stations going to go? That can support trucks. Yeah. Where do you plug all
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these vehicles in? Where's the, and I know people always say, well, you just, you pull into your
garage and you charge it. Not everybody has a garage. No. You have a lot of people that they
don't have a, if you live in an apartment on the fourth floor and you don't have a garage,
how do I plug my car in? I mean, there's just, again, there's so many downstream questions where
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you're going to hurt people. Yeah. Make their life very difficult over an issue that probably
doesn't need to be an issue for a degree or two. That's probably going to change in the next cycle.
The next 30 year cycle, it's going to change again. It's, you know, it's,
yeah. Now, now let's, let's take this and let's pivot for just a second. Cause we're talking about
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the United States and the impact here on us. We really narrowed it down to California, but let's,
let's turn, turn the attention for a moment internationally. Yeah. Let's talk about two
components that we've, that we've seen in the news and even firsthand. So the first one is the nature
of the production of our batteries, you know, of our, of our technology. And that's everything from
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the devices that we use, you know, you and I are using technology right now to, to make this
podcast. So they have, you know, the lithium batteries in there and, and then from the electric
cars to even solar and solar batteries people have in their house, all these things, all of our
technology has rare earth metals in it. That's the nature of it. These are the things that conduct
electricity best or, and are best used to make microchips. Where do those come from?
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Where do those rare earth metals come from? You're not supposed to ask that question.
Right. I know. And this, this is the sad part is that I've actually seen where they come from and
I've been where they come from. So most of our rare earth metals are mined in Africa. Most of
them are. So most, most of both Eastern and Southern Africa has been for probably the better
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part of 30 years controlled largely economically by countries like China and even Japan and sometimes
even the United States where they'll have shell companies come in, buy up large plots of land
where they test, test the soil. I actually walked by when I was in Uganda recently and there was a
bunch of pieces of copper in the soil. You could see it was just speckled with copper, very rich,
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but you have to sift it and then you can melt things down and all that.
And when we think about the nature of these mines being in Africa, then we got to say, well, are
these really, really American safe mines with, you know, laws and, and, and, you know, OSHA,
all of that. Right. And the reality is no, the mines. And I've heard these stories firsthand from
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pastors who have tried to rescue kids out of these mines. What they do is these mines are
essentially no, no more than a foxhole being dug underground. There's no support beams. There's no,
there's not American coal mines, which are still dangerous in their own right on the East coast,
but these, these are not those. These are foxholes that are dug and obviously very rudimentary,
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rudimentary in their nature. They're not, they're not with a large machinery. These are hand tools,
really they're digging and they're going 20, 30, 40, 50, even more feet under underground.
And they choose the smallest to go into those holes. So those are not the grown men who go
into there. These are the teen and preteen boys who go down into the mine and they tie a rope
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around their waist and they go have them, you know, go and collect things with a flashlight
as deep as they can go. Very little air, very little oxygen. And if they collapse, their goal
of having the rope tied around them is far less about pulling the boy out than it is about finding
their way back to the material, the minerals that they were going in for. And there are too many
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stories of families who have lost young boys to these really unsafe mines because we want widespread
use of electric vehicles and technology. Now, I'm not saying that everyone who owns, you know,
laptop or phone is evil for buying it, but we should be aware of the unseen costs, the unseen
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dangers. And if we make this bigger, are we going to increase then the number of lives that are lost
as we're pursuing green energy? That's one factor. Not just bigger, but thousands of times bigger.
It's just, it's unsustainable when you really think about it. And the poorest of the poor will be the
ones who pay the deepest price. Yeah. And we've talked about already, there's been entire nations,
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their economies have been destroyed by green policies by trying to live up to standards from
the EU or the Paris Accords or just a government that decided, you know, we should be greener
because we want to make people happy. And pretty soon they're regulating everything out of existence.
And the economy collapses. I know Ghana is one of them and Sri Lanka is another. I know the farmers
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in the Netherlands, they were being destroyed, absolutely destroyed. The economy is falling
apart. Green policies are absolute destroyers. Yes, they are. Because it requires a complete
overhaul of everything. And imagine, and that's the danger. And speaking of the global issue,
what if America did that? What if we destroyed our own economy in the name of being green,
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but China said, nah, we're not doing it. Or India said, yeah, sorry, we're not getting involved.
So we commit national suicide to please who? Yeah. While the other nations laugh. So it,
I mean, if the entire world isn't involved, it's even more useless than it really is.
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Yeah. Which really seems to be more of a show than anything else. But it has devastating
consequences when it's implemented poorly. You mentioned Ghana very quickly. The reality there
is that the government in Ghana sold themselves out to Western companies, Western Europe, and even
the United States to push a green economy. Well, when they did that, we were just talking about
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what are the unseen effects, the unforeseen effects of all the people who are going to lose
their jobs and their livelihoods. So as they push that policy of green energy, they eliminated 70%
of their farming workforce because they were not able to comply with the new standards.
This goes back to pre even around 2020 times. So they killed their farming economy,
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but the West kept promising, hey, we're going to take care of you. We're going to help you with
new equipment. We're going to help your farmers out down the line, but nothing ever happens fast.
And we know that. I don't want to pick on Caltrans, but those of us in California,
we know that that's a joke around because, man, it just seems like some things will never change.
(30:55):
You live off the five freeway. It looks the same. I moved over a year ago and it looks the same
to me today. But with that, the governments of the world did not provide the necessary equipment
that Ghana needed because what happened? COVID, COVID comes, supply chains are disrupted. Now,
they can't ship anything. You remember not only was the shipping disrupted because of COVID,
but then we had the Suez Canal issue. Now we have grief upon grief that is hitting our global
(31:22):
economy, our global world, and Ghana was not number one for any country. So they killed their farming
workforce by adopting the green policies. And then they were hoping for a promise to be fulfilled
on gaining all of the infrastructure that they desired to support the country and never came
because of natural and national disaster. And then what happened now, the country
(31:46):
went from being a very promising West African nation prior to 2020 to now being back on
the list of some, one of the top 10 world's poorest country. And now they don't even have farms
that can survive because they switched all of their grid, their power grid to electrical energy,
and they could not support even roughly one 10th of their population with that. So it's a terrible
(32:11):
and catastrophic example of what happens when there's no forethought, when there's no foresight,
when there's no consideration of the impact of policies and decisions and even recognizing the
nuance of our privileged position here in America. Western elites were very privileged and there are
things we can be thankful for with that. But we went through an industrial revolution that had no
(32:32):
caps on fossil fuels. We went through an industrial revolution where there was no issue for whatever
we wanted to do. And we find ourselves here today. China went through the same thing.
India has gone through the same thing. The UK went through the same thing.
Western nations have been through that. We don't allow poor countries today to go through that.
(32:52):
Of course. Right.
Because of this initiative towards climate care, creation care.
Wow.
Man. And so the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.
And the elites, when things fail, the elites aren't affected by it.
No.
They chuckle and move on to the next project.
Yeah. They say, well, what country could we do with now?
Yeah, it makes you angry.
(33:12):
And they turn their attention. And meanwhile, those in Ghana are still suffering to this day.
So there's so many things we could talk about with climate change alone, but I think there's
some things I want to highlight and then I want to hear from you, Jeff, on these things. We're
considering voting even. We're considering Christians who are now going to go to the
ballot box, whether the absentee ballot very soon here or whether they're going into a polling
(33:37):
station. We're going to need to think about this issue of climate change when we look at
the policies that are being promoted, especially here in California, but even nationally as well.
I think we need to remember that mankind pre-fall really is charged to be, yes, a good steward,
but not to be an environmentalist.
Right.
There is that distinction. I think we need to remember that.
(33:58):
Yep.
That pre-fall, that's the nature of man. I think that it's important for Christians to also
remember activism not as a single policy issue, but to consider, are they caring about other things?
Well, earlier we said that the Bible is really clear. There is no save the trees,
but thou shalt not kill is extremely clear. So are we more concerned with the environment that
(34:23):
we live in or are there other issues that we're also talking about and even considering with
others? So if we're only talking with other people as believers about preserving the climate,
I think that says a lot about us. We need to be careful that we're also caring for people
in their lives.
For sure.
And not just caring about saving plants and not to say we just destroy everything,
(34:46):
but let's take things in balance. And God's word is really clear that mankind is the pinnacle
of creation. And so people really should be the priority as we're even considering policies
related to our local governments. The last thing I would say, and then I'll turn it over to you,
is when we consider the goal, the goal of climate change, obviously, as you stated,
(35:11):
is this idea of preservation for the future and for generations to come. I would encourage the
believer as you think about what the goal of climate change could be, if your goal is to enact
some result, then you're probably not trusting in God because your goal should be to be faithful no
matter what the result is. So if your aim is an actual goal of, we wanna see the overall temperature
(35:36):
lowered or we wanna see carbon emissions reach a certain level, if that's your aim, you're probably
not trusting in the right person or the right anything. You're probably trusting in mankind's
ability more than you are with God. Because you could say, hey, I'd like to reduce my own carbon
footprint if I'm able. And you can have a clear conscience with that and say, amen. But now when
(35:59):
you start saying that's the aim that everyone should have, that signals a different trust.
Yeah. I mean, those are great points. That's probably enough. But just the other thing I
would say is avoid the bomb throwers that are out there that on both ends of it that are saying,
it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I've heard people say, ah, we can pollute. It doesn't matter.
I mean, everything's... If we're at that point where we, again, we're out of balance, we're saying,
(36:22):
well, even if we trust, well, God's sovereign over this, He is sovereign over this. But if we say,
so therefore I don't have to do, I can pollute, I can do anything, that's not a good way to go.
There's more bomb throwers right now on the other side that are saying that mankind, you are the
problem. You're creating all of this. There is no God. He's not in control. We have to fix the
weather. Just avoid the bomb throwers and watch. And again, be discerning on the propaganda. Ask
(36:47):
the questions you need to ask. Just be balanced on this thing. I think you said it beautifully.
As stewards, we look at it and we say, okay, is there something personally that I can do?
Can I encourage something? I mentioned cleaning up the oceans. I don't think I mentioned this.
Most of the activity that's happening are private companies and volunteers, charities that are out
there saying, you know what, there's a guy that develops some technology to sweep the oceans.
(37:10):
Trash. Awesome. How can you not be happy about that?
That's great. And it's solar powered.
So something. Yeah. But you know, I mean, so do what we can do, but where is your trust?
That's what it comes down to.
Yeah. Amen. All right. Well, listeners, we're grateful that you guys have been with us listening
to this topic of how Christians can approach the issue of climate change. And so we pray
(37:33):
that the conversation has helped you to renew your minds and reform your hearts. Next time
we'll take on another hot button issue here on the thinking tree.
Welcome to The Thinking Tree, a podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.
(00:03):
I'm Adam Sanchez.
And I'm Jeff No.
And today we're talking about climate change in the church.
Now I realize I said climate change in the church.
That's when you turn the air conditioning on.
And that's just a matter of what the thermostat is set to. But what I meant to say was climate
(00:28):
change and the church. That's really what we're taking on today. So we are taking on,
this is our first episode really in the series that we just started last week about political
activism really within the church. And so we want to take on this issue of climate change.
We want to discuss how Christians can respond and even some difficulties that are there as
(00:51):
we're thinking through the issues. So the question for today, how should Christians think about and
respond to the political issue of climate change? It can be confusing because there's so much stuff
coming at us right now from all these disparate locations, places, some look and feel scientific,
some don't, some are political opinions. Then there's economic pieces to it. It can be
(01:15):
overwhelming and confusing. So we should probably just start by talking about what the Bible says.
I was about to say, and then there's that part too, where there are Christian leaders who are
giving imperative commands to professing believers to say God's word compels you to vote this way,
to pursue this, even to make your decisions, your purchasing decisions based on these things.
(01:38):
And you should be worried about it. You hear that too. You should be worried about this is like-
If this doesn't concern you, then-
Then can you be a Christian? This is an existential crisis. That's their favorite phrase.
It's existential and people go, ooh, existential. I need to care about that.
Right, right. More than that, I need to be worried about it. I need to do something now
(01:59):
because we only have eight years to live is what we've been told. I mean, the language is so extreme.
It is. And I'm glad you're encouraging. Let's start with God's word first. Let's start there.
God's word is not silent on really on any issue. We know that. We have the privilege of studying
God's word and teaching it. You get to teach every single Sunday principles from God's word.
(02:20):
Here's how we can respond. And so you see, I see constantly God's word is not silent on really any
issue in terms of applying. So as we look at God's word, when we think about this issue of climate
change, there is a co-opting of a biblical principle, meaning being a good steward.
There's this co-opting of mankind, Adam, the original Adam, had a biblical mandate to be a
(02:45):
steward of creation. We understand that that's a biblical principle. He's made in God's image and
God is creator and sustainer of all things. And so Adam and mankind is to image God in being a
caretaker for all the things. What's interesting though is in that Genesis account, and this is
pre-fault before Adam and Eve fell into sin, Adam or mankind was commanded to subdue and to have
(03:09):
dominion over specifically the animal kingdom. And God never said have dominion over the plants and
have dominion over the trees. He said have dominion over the animal kingdom and then to be fruitful
and multiply. So mankind's imperative, the command that God gave them before the fall was to
populate the earth. So be fruitful and multiply before sin, and then to rule over the animal
(03:34):
kingdom. And then the fact that every tree, seed producing tree, was good for food. That's what
was before the fall. So plants are for food before the fall. Nowhere does it say they're for
preservation. Nowhere does it say even that the animal kingdom is for preservation, though they
were to be ruled over but cared for, ruled over and have dominion. So we shouldn't waste plants or
(04:00):
animals, but it is very clear from the opening pages of God's, we're in Genesis chapter one actually,
when we hear about this, about how God is made in the image of, or man is made in the image of God,
and then man is to have dominion over the animals and then to use the plants for food.
Right.
That's what we see in the opening chapters of Genesis.
Correct. Yeah.
(04:21):
So where is save the trees?
I know, I'm showing my hand on the issue.
Right. And yeah. And where is this hyper environmentalism coming from? Right?
Stewardship is obviously, it's actually a beautiful concept. Take care of things.
Yes.
But to then say, well, but now the environment is in crisis and somehow God is absent.
(04:47):
Right? That's the implication. God is not able to maintain the environment and you human beings are
the problem. You have to fix it.
And over issues that are not sin, right? Yeah.
Like we're breaking things over issues that are not actually sin.
And then we're paying more attention to these things that are not actually sin,
(05:08):
more than the things that are actually sin.
Yeah. Just the whole idea that, and I look, I don't want to make fun of Christians,
but sometimes we're so ignorant to scripture that we would actually, actually come to the conclusion
that God is not managing the environment, that God is not able to be sovereign over the environment.
He needs our help to fix a problem that is out of control as if God's ever out of control.
(05:31):
Right.
But honestly, there are people sitting in pews and churches that are believing that the government,
imagine this, the governments of the world have to fix this problem.
That they can.
As if government can't, does anything effectively, efficiently, as if we can change nature itself.
It is man trying to sit in the seat of God.
(05:53):
The arrogance of it is astounding if you stop to think about it.
Even the idea of global warming.
The science, the thing, and we'll talk about this in a moment, but the science doesn't all agree
on that anyways, if we're going to use that term, which nobody enjoys that anymore.
It's just a fight term.
Well, the science, you know, remember what happened during COVID.
(06:14):
But when we consider even something like global warming, for a second, if we just,
if we just all agreed that it's actually happening and that it's out of our hands, so to speak,
and what's going on, could we also as believers recognize that whatever happens to the world,
like you're mentioning, is under God's rule and reign and that there's actually a planned
(06:37):
brokenness to this world?
I mean, we read in Romans, the creation is subjected to futility.
It's groaning.
It's groaning, waiting to be remade and renewed.
So wouldn't it even make sense from a biblical theological understanding
that the world would be getting worse?
Yes.
Deteriorating.
Correct.
Isn't that the nature of why we don't live as long as the original people who left the garden and
(07:02):
lived for hundreds and hundreds of years and then sin soaks into every fiber of our being,
every part of our DNA, every molecule.
And so cancer becomes a deteriorating agent within our,
I mean, doesn't that make sense from biblical understanding?
Even natural law tells you that, that all things, they run out of energy.
They eventually slow down.
(07:23):
They deteriorate.
They fall apart.
Everything falls apart.
Our bodies are falling apart.
So it seems kind of crazy to stop, like, can you stop your own aging process?
I mean, if I could, I would.
I mean, everyone.
And again, as I'm thinking about what I just said, it doesn't mean non-action on the part
of human beings because we are stewards.
We are caretakers.
(07:44):
But it's the idea.
And it goes back to something I said in a recent sermon.
It's who do you actually trust the environment to?
Yes, it doesn't mean do nothing.
It doesn't mean put your head in the sand.
Maybe there's some things you could do.
I'm going to recycle.
I'm going to do what I can on my part, but I'm not going to worry and stay up late at night
being concerned that somehow the world is out of control.
(08:06):
And if human beings don't fix it, what happens?
Yeah.
Right.
So you mean we're not going to stand in front of a,
a United Nations or some other committee and yell and scream like a 14 year old young lady
and blame everyone for the destruction of the world and become a, I mean, I know I'm
hitting the nail on the head for something that happened a few years ago, but what we're
(08:29):
saying is that is not the Christian's command.
That as good stewards, and we'll talk a little more about the implication of being good stewards,
but as stewards, we're not entrusting the world to our care, but we're trusting God
in his care of all things. And then we are being careful in the way that we engage with
the world around us. Of course.
That's why we don't just throw trash on this. That's why I, I love the, there's a lot of
(08:53):
movements right now to clean up the ocean. I think that's wonderful. There's a lot of things we can
do, but again, if we're acting, if we're so arrogant as human beings to say we're fixing
the environment or get this wheel, we'll change the weather patterns. The arrogance of man is wild.
Yes. Yes, it is. Now in the church, there's, I mean, we're talking about things from biblical
(09:16):
perspective on purpose in the church. There is a, I would say growing movement within, whether
we're going to call them evangelicals or we're going to call them the larger world of Christendom,
but there is a growing influence to see Christians care for the climate, climate care, creation care,
(09:36):
these kinds of things and land preservation really over people. Really. It's an emphasis to care for
the created order outside of mankind. Yep. More than mankind, but it's even coming from the church.
Yes. Such an important point. It's, it's, it's the environment over people. If people die and suffer,
we don't, we're not bothered by that. We're saving the planet. But then when you ask,
(09:59):
but wait a minute, hold on a second. Aren't we saving the planet for the sake of humanity?
Now they don't know what to say, but they will, they will sit back. And I say they,
those who are pushing these policies from the left, they will sit back and push these policies
at the expense of the poorest in the world. It's, it's either the, the, the intentional blindness to
(10:23):
it or just the pure power play that it is. And we should talk about that as well. There is a huge
amount of power play in climate change, because if you can convince nations of the world to reshape
their economies based on green policies, do you know how much money is a lot of money to be made
and power now governments can say, look, if you don't live up to these standards, we will do X,
(10:46):
Y, or Z to force you and take away your rights and take away your privileges unless you come into
line. And then there's always the elite that rises to the top that makes all the money
and accumulates all the power in that system. Imagine this idea. Imagine if your government
were to come to you and say, if you'll just give me more of your income, if you'll allow us to tax
(11:08):
you more, take more of your money, we will fix the weather. We will fix the environment as if they
can fix anything. Yeah. They can't even fix the potholes in the street or the freeway, let alone
the environment or the weather. And my favorite example of that is, is for how many years have we
said, if you, if you'll just let us take more of your income through taxes, we will fix the homeless
(11:30):
problem. And every year they get billions of dollars, right? Some federal grants, you know,
tax money, and the problem gets bigger. But a whole bunch of people made a ton of money because
now there's NGOs and charity groups and, and, and government officials and they're all lining their
pockets. And guess what? When you're making money, you don't want to solve that problem.
(11:53):
Yeah. You want it to go on. Hey, you have your job security. Christians wake up. Yeah. Think.
You know, it's interesting along the, along these lines, you're talking about the policies, even in
cities, right? The policies in cities, at least here in the U S have largely centered around
reducing pollution, reducing, you know, various fumes, various emissions and standards. And that's
(12:17):
part of the push with, with a green suppose in an air quoting here, green energy, because it's very
difficult to have truly green energy. When you look at what is required even to generate the
machinery needed to, you know, to use, to use green energy, the electricity to power the cars.
Right, right. So it's a very complex issue in that we have to understand those effects. That's part
(12:41):
of our responsibilities, believers to think through this. But one thing that we should note is that
there is not actually any specific evidence that links a political policy to within our modern era
to having a measurable effect on climate as a whole. Right. There actually is no study, no link
(13:02):
of a political policy. So any of the agendas, the new green deal, these things, there's zero effect
that is measured by those policies to affect climate. So not to say that we should not be good
stewards. We've just said you should, we should as believers do what you can be good stewards and we
should care appropriately and rightly and appropriately means not over and excessively,
(13:25):
but just appropriately. But we recognize no political policy has had any measurable change
on the climate. That's an important distinction because they would have us believe otherwise,
that there are certain policies agendas that would have a measurable impact on the environment,
on your life, on my life, on the lives of communities. And that's why they would
(13:47):
implore us to give them more of our tax money. Yeah. And I think if you're out there and you're
listening, you're a Christian and you're thinking, am I crazy? Has just the weather gone through a
whole bunch of changes over decades and centuries? Yes. There have been ice ages, there have been
warmer periods and it fluctuates. It goes up and down. Guess what? It gets hotter in summer and
(14:08):
colder in winter. Seasons. I know. Yeah. Time for everything. I've heard about that. I mean, yes,
of course. And so the numbers are so, are so small. And then I'll just tell you something else. And
I know you know this, Adam, because you've been to Africa and other places around the world.
Even if let's just, let's just say we're in a, in a warming period and maybe we are and we,
(14:31):
it's funny, we haven't actually tracked it for very long. Right. It's a very modern,
very modern, but let's just say, let's just, we'll just stipulate that we're on a slight warming
period. More warmth around the world. It would change some cultures, but overall it's a net
positive because more warmth means more crops, means more food. Actually the worst thing that
(14:53):
could happen would be colder ice ages can kill. Yeah. But global warming is actually not, if you
talk to experts, they'll say, no, it's actually be, it'd be an okay. If we went up a degree, it'd be a good thing for the earth.
There'd be more areas that could be, like you said, farmable, would yield greater crops.
Right. And it's not to say that we're advocating for pollution to that end. We're not advocating
(15:17):
for not caring for, for hysteria. Right. It's the, even if that was God's plan. Yeah. If God's plan
is to raise the world's temperature by a degree, could we even yet see potential goodness? Yes.
Coming out of that. Correct. I think the answer is yes. Correct. Yes, we could. Real briefly,
before we continue on, just a note about our theological understanding of conservation.
(15:43):
I think it's important that listeners, especially professing believers, would consider their
theology and even their eschatological, their end times thinking, their end times theology about this
issue of conservation. Yeah. So we think about the implications of various end times theological
positions. You did a great series recently on unshakable. So just real quick note, unshakable
(16:10):
is the podcast that Jeff runs. And so that's more of kind of just a teaching opportunity on various
things that we don't have time for in the pulpit on Sundays, but are still important things in the
life of believers. And so I'd encourage you listeners to go check that out. But on that,
you did a series on various eschatological end times positions. I think important note is when
(16:31):
we think about conservation, there could be a theological position or positions that misunderstand
this issue because of what they think is going to happen. Well, yeah, it goes back to what you said
earlier about, do we expect things to deteriorate or do we expect them to improve? And those who are
post-millennial, who take that position that the world's going to get better and actually the world
(16:54):
is going to turn to Christ en masse, 90% plus percent of people are going to come to know Christ.
And that means there's going to be this great renewal of the earth and all these different things.
Yeah, that is nowhere in the Bible. It really is confusing to me. I actually see the opposite. I see
both in scripture and just with my own eyes and ears, you see things actually getting darker
(17:19):
in this world. And so, yeah, our theological positions do have an impact on what we think
about as that climate change for sure. Yeah. So let's think about a couple of things here as we
look at Christians responding to climate change. I think on the front end, we talked about what
does the Bible teach. We said the Bible does not teach conservationism as a theological imperative,
(17:43):
but rather we are stewards, period. And so that's a biblical and theological premise. So you won't
ever find anywhere in scripture, God saying, save the trees. That statement, and I'm not making fun
of it, I'm saying literally you will not find that. But what you will find in God's word is, thou
shall not kill. Do not kill. And that's for another episode, but I'm just making that statement. There
(18:07):
are biblical imperatives and an imperative is a command. There are biblical commands that God has
in his word, but saving the trees or being a conservationist is not one of those commands.
So as we're looking at the practical implications of a steward, we're considering, well, how do we
do that then? We're not saying I must do this. We're saying God has called me to be faithful and to
(18:32):
be a steward of all that I am and all that I have. So now how do I do that? Well, that's a very
different premise than saying I must go and do this. Yeah. And like you said, in all areas,
we're good stewards. And actually you think about it, that means being a good steward in the sense
that we are doing the right research and that we're actually, rather than responding to an issue
(18:53):
emotionally, psychologically, without actually checking God's word, without looking for good
truth sources, we're not stewarding that well either. So it's easy to get fooled. And again,
the left knows this going back to what we talked about in our last episode, they want to smuggle
in and they've actually used that word, smuggle in all kinds of, of propaganda about the climate
(19:17):
about the climate and to rebrand things. Like you said, creation care sounds so nice.
We want to be about that, right? So their strategy has been if we can get some high level
Christian institutions to sign on to creation care, if we can get some marquee names to sign
(19:39):
a statement, it's going to trickle down. It's going to get to the pastoral level, which gets it to the
pew level. And if enough Christians see their favorite Christian preacher slash celebrity saying
this should be an issue, well then it's on my radar. Maybe I need to consider creation care.
And again, the left believes that they can just suck away just a few percentage points of the
(20:02):
Christian vote that they're going to win elections. So there's a strategy here.
Yeah. It's not, it's not as simple as seeking the best for whether it's neighbor or even
nebulously the environment. It's never as simple as that. There's agendas, there's something
happening, right? There's things behind the scenes. And that brings us to what we encouraged in the
(20:23):
last episode, which has any policy you need to ask questions. You need to ask questions,
do your research and understand what is the issue. So when we look at the use of electric cars,
you know, the widespread use of electric vehicles, one thing that we've seen here in California,
cause that's where we are, is that truly the electrical grid cannot support purely electric
vehicles in our state. Now we have, we have, I think we have the most populous state. Do we not?
(20:48):
I think we do. In the U S we have almost 10% of the United States population resides in California,
officially unofficially, depending on which number you're looking at, but over 30 million people. So
with that, we cannot support electrically that many vehicles. So that's one issue where we can't go
that way much, much as the current governor wants us to, we can't go that way. Just very practically,
(21:13):
what is the economic impact going to be? If people have to trade in their gasoline powered
vehicles that they've had, and maybe they paid it off and don't have to make a payment on it.
And now they have to buy this new vehicle and they can't afford the nature of what is the impact on
the families who are, who are using gasoline vehicles even further. How many families do we
know over the years? And maybe not know personally, but it's been an issue politically, the support in
(21:37):
Detroit, the support in other States, you know, in, in, you know, Texas now they're doing a lot of
manufacturer work of vehicles. What about those families who are working on gasoline ice, you know,
combustion engines, who are dependent on, on support that this goes back to Henry Ford, even
in the creation of the factory and the, and the five day work, we can blame him for that. I mean,
(21:58):
there's a lot we can talk about historically here, but what happens to those families then who are
dependent on, on the manufacturer and the maintenance. And what about our, all of our, our body shop
and, and mechanics that are dependent on taking care of combustion engines. And if we get rid
just in one day of all the electric vehicles, let's even say our grid could support it.
(22:18):
What do we do with all the families who are dependent upon the nature of the manufacturer
and the repair and the support of gasoline vehicles, the whole economy is going to come
crumbling down in a moment. It's, and again, it's, it's, it's, it's caring for the environment at,
and it's ludicrous, but even saying that at the expense of people. Yeah. We did this with COVID,
(22:39):
we put people's businesses out. We just, nobody voted for this. The government just said, just
declared as if they had the right to do that. Sorry, your business isn't essential and closed
them down and destroyed businesses and families and, and people's lives. They didn't vote for that.
(22:59):
Yeah. And now they want to do the same thing with these mandates and these standards. Yeah,
you're right. There's tire businesses that are built on fossil fuels. And suddenly you're saying
that either you go out of business and, and sorry about losing your home and everything else,
or you completely invest millions of dollars to redo your business. But again, they didn't vote
(23:20):
for this, but you just come from on high and say, you have to do this. It's what do you do? The truck
driver who's invested maybe even millions in his own business to buy a truck and everything. And
then all of a sudden it changes. And now truck drivers are the backbone of the U S being able
to supply our agriculture really across the United States. So now food becomes more scarce
(23:45):
and difficult across the U S because we can't support, you know, shipping things out. I mean,
we produce so much here in California, our agriculture supports the nation. It's, you know,
it's well over the 10% of our population that's supported by our agriculture here in California.
Where are the charging stations going to go? That can support trucks. Yeah. Where do you plug all
(24:05):
these vehicles in? Where's the, and I know people always say, well, you just, you pull into your
garage and you charge it. Not everybody has a garage. No. You have a lot of people that they
don't have a, if you live in an apartment on the fourth floor and you don't have a garage,
how do I plug my car in? I mean, there's just, again, there's so many downstream questions where
(24:27):
you're going to hurt people. Yeah. Make their life very difficult over an issue that probably
doesn't need to be an issue for a degree or two. That's probably going to change in the next cycle.
The next 30 year cycle, it's going to change again. It's, you know, it's,
yeah. Now, now let's, let's take this and let's pivot for just a second. Cause we're talking about
(24:50):
the United States and the impact here on us. We really narrowed it down to California, but let's,
let's turn, turn the attention for a moment internationally. Yeah. Let's talk about two
components that we've, that we've seen in the news and even firsthand. So the first one is the nature
of the production of our batteries, you know, of our, of our technology. And that's everything from
(25:11):
the devices that we use, you know, you and I are using technology right now to, to make this
podcast. So they have, you know, the lithium batteries in there and, and then from the electric
cars to even solar and solar batteries people have in their house, all these things, all of our
technology has rare earth metals in it. That's the nature of it. These are the things that conduct
electricity best or, and are best used to make microchips. Where do those come from?
(25:37):
Where do those rare earth metals come from? You're not supposed to ask that question.
Right. I know. And this, this is the sad part is that I've actually seen where they come from and
I've been where they come from. So most of our rare earth metals are mined in Africa. Most of
them are. So most, most of both Eastern and Southern Africa has been for probably the better
(25:57):
part of 30 years controlled largely economically by countries like China and even Japan and sometimes
even the United States where they'll have shell companies come in, buy up large plots of land
where they test, test the soil. I actually walked by when I was in Uganda recently and there was a
bunch of pieces of copper in the soil. You could see it was just speckled with copper, very rich,
(26:22):
but you have to sift it and then you can melt things down and all that.
And when we think about the nature of these mines being in Africa, then we got to say, well, are
these really, really American safe mines with, you know, laws and, and, and, you know, OSHA,
all of that. Right. And the reality is no, the mines. And I've heard these stories firsthand from
(26:45):
pastors who have tried to rescue kids out of these mines. What they do is these mines are
essentially no, no more than a foxhole being dug underground. There's no support beams. There's no,
there's not American coal mines, which are still dangerous in their own right on the East coast,
but these, these are not those. These are foxholes that are dug and obviously very rudimentary,
(27:09):
rudimentary in their nature. They're not, they're not with a large machinery. These are hand tools,
really they're digging and they're going 20, 30, 40, 50, even more feet under underground.
And they choose the smallest to go into those holes. So those are not the grown men who go
into there. These are the teen and preteen boys who go down into the mine and they tie a rope
(27:33):
around their waist and they go have them, you know, go and collect things with a flashlight
as deep as they can go. Very little air, very little oxygen. And if they collapse, their goal
of having the rope tied around them is far less about pulling the boy out than it is about finding
their way back to the material, the minerals that they were going in for. And there are too many
(27:54):
stories of families who have lost young boys to these really unsafe mines because we want widespread
use of electric vehicles and technology. Now, I'm not saying that everyone who owns, you know,
laptop or phone is evil for buying it, but we should be aware of the unseen costs, the unseen
(28:19):
dangers. And if we make this bigger, are we going to increase then the number of lives that are lost
as we're pursuing green energy? That's one factor. Not just bigger, but thousands of times bigger.
It's just, it's unsustainable when you really think about it. And the poorest of the poor will be the
ones who pay the deepest price. Yeah. And we've talked about already, there's been entire nations,
(28:43):
their economies have been destroyed by green policies by trying to live up to standards from
the EU or the Paris Accords or just a government that decided, you know, we should be greener
because we want to make people happy. And pretty soon they're regulating everything out of existence.
And the economy collapses. I know Ghana is one of them and Sri Lanka is another. I know the farmers
(29:05):
in the Netherlands, they were being destroyed, absolutely destroyed. The economy is falling
apart. Green policies are absolute destroyers. Yes, they are. Because it requires a complete
overhaul of everything. And imagine, and that's the danger. And speaking of the global issue,
what if America did that? What if we destroyed our own economy in the name of being green,
(29:27):
but China said, nah, we're not doing it. Or India said, yeah, sorry, we're not getting involved.
So we commit national suicide to please who? Yeah. While the other nations laugh. So it,
I mean, if the entire world isn't involved, it's even more useless than it really is.
(29:48):
Yeah. Which really seems to be more of a show than anything else. But it has devastating
consequences when it's implemented poorly. You mentioned Ghana very quickly. The reality there
is that the government in Ghana sold themselves out to Western companies, Western Europe, and even
the United States to push a green economy. Well, when they did that, we were just talking about
(30:10):
what are the unseen effects, the unforeseen effects of all the people who are going to lose
their jobs and their livelihoods. So as they push that policy of green energy, they eliminated 70%
of their farming workforce because they were not able to comply with the new standards.
This goes back to pre even around 2020 times. So they killed their farming economy,
(30:34):
but the West kept promising, hey, we're going to take care of you. We're going to help you with
new equipment. We're going to help your farmers out down the line, but nothing ever happens fast.
And we know that. I don't want to pick on Caltrans, but those of us in California,
we know that that's a joke around because, man, it just seems like some things will never change.
(30:55):
You live off the five freeway. It looks the same. I moved over a year ago and it looks the same
to me today. But with that, the governments of the world did not provide the necessary equipment
that Ghana needed because what happened? COVID, COVID comes, supply chains are disrupted. Now,
they can't ship anything. You remember not only was the shipping disrupted because of COVID,
but then we had the Suez Canal issue. Now we have grief upon grief that is hitting our global
(31:22):
economy, our global world, and Ghana was not number one for any country. So they killed their farming
workforce by adopting the green policies. And then they were hoping for a promise to be fulfilled
on gaining all of the infrastructure that they desired to support the country and never came
because of natural and national disaster. And then what happened now, the country
(31:46):
went from being a very promising West African nation prior to 2020 to now being back on
the list of some, one of the top 10 world's poorest country. And now they don't even have farms
that can survive because they switched all of their grid, their power grid to electrical energy,
and they could not support even roughly one 10th of their population with that. So it's a terrible
(32:11):
and catastrophic example of what happens when there's no forethought, when there's no foresight,
when there's no consideration of the impact of policies and decisions and even recognizing the
nuance of our privileged position here in America. Western elites were very privileged and there are
things we can be thankful for with that. But we went through an industrial revolution that had no
(32:32):
caps on fossil fuels. We went through an industrial revolution where there was no issue for whatever
we wanted to do. And we find ourselves here today. China went through the same thing.
India has gone through the same thing. The UK went through the same thing.
Western nations have been through that. We don't allow poor countries today to go through that.
(32:52):
Of course. Right.
Because of this initiative towards climate care, creation care.
Wow.
Man. And so the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.
And the elites, when things fail, the elites aren't affected by it.
No.
They chuckle and move on to the next project.
Yeah. They say, well, what country could we do with now?
Yeah, it makes you angry.
(33:12):
And they turn their attention. And meanwhile, those in Ghana are still suffering to this day.
So there's so many things we could talk about with climate change alone, but I think there's
some things I want to highlight and then I want to hear from you, Jeff, on these things. We're
considering voting even. We're considering Christians who are now going to go to the
ballot box, whether the absentee ballot very soon here or whether they're going into a polling
(33:37):
station. We're going to need to think about this issue of climate change when we look at
the policies that are being promoted, especially here in California, but even nationally as well.
I think we need to remember that mankind pre-fall really is charged to be, yes, a good steward,
but not to be an environmentalist.
Right.
There is that distinction. I think we need to remember that.
(33:58):
Yep.
That pre-fall, that's the nature of man. I think that it's important for Christians to also
remember activism not as a single policy issue, but to consider, are they caring about other things?
Well, earlier we said that the Bible is really clear. There is no save the trees,
but thou shalt not kill is extremely clear. So are we more concerned with the environment that
(34:23):
we live in or are there other issues that we're also talking about and even considering with
others? So if we're only talking with other people as believers about preserving the climate,
I think that says a lot about us. We need to be careful that we're also caring for people
in their lives.
For sure.
And not just caring about saving plants and not to say we just destroy everything,
(34:46):
but let's take things in balance. And God's word is really clear that mankind is the pinnacle
of creation. And so people really should be the priority as we're even considering policies
related to our local governments. The last thing I would say, and then I'll turn it over to you,
is when we consider the goal, the goal of climate change, obviously, as you stated,
(35:11):
is this idea of preservation for the future and for generations to come. I would encourage the
believer as you think about what the goal of climate change could be, if your goal is to enact
some result, then you're probably not trusting in God because your goal should be to be faithful no
matter what the result is. So if your aim is an actual goal of, we wanna see the overall temperature
(35:36):
lowered or we wanna see carbon emissions reach a certain level, if that's your aim, you're probably
not trusting in the right person or the right anything. You're probably trusting in mankind's
ability more than you are with God. Because you could say, hey, I'd like to reduce my own carbon
footprint if I'm able. And you can have a clear conscience with that and say, amen. But now when
(35:59):
you start saying that's the aim that everyone should have, that signals a different trust.
Yeah. I mean, those are great points. That's probably enough. But just the other thing I
would say is avoid the bomb throwers that are out there that on both ends of it that are saying,
it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I've heard people say, ah, we can pollute. It doesn't matter.
I mean, everything's... If we're at that point where we, again, we're out of balance, we're saying,
(36:22):
well, even if we trust, well, God's sovereign over this, He is sovereign over this. But if we say,
so therefore I don't have to do, I can pollute, I can do anything, that's not a good way to go.
There's more bomb throwers right now on the other side that are saying that mankind, you are the
problem. You're creating all of this. There is no God. He's not in control. We have to fix the
weather. Just avoid the bomb throwers and watch. And again, be discerning on the propaganda. Ask
(36:47):
the questions you need to ask. Just be balanced on this thing. I think you said it beautifully.
As stewards, we look at it and we say, okay, is there something personally that I can do?
Can I encourage something? I mentioned cleaning up the oceans. I don't think I mentioned this.
Most of the activity that's happening are private companies and volunteers, charities that are out
there saying, you know what, there's a guy that develops some technology to sweep the oceans.
(37:10):
Trash. Awesome. How can you not be happy about that?
That's great. And it's solar powered.
So something. Yeah. But you know, I mean, so do what we can do, but where is your trust?
That's what it comes down to.
Yeah. Amen. All right. Well, listeners, we're grateful that you guys have been with us listening
to this topic of how Christians can approach the issue of climate change. And so we pray
(37:33):
that the conversation has helped you to renew your minds and reform your hearts. Next time
we'll take on another hot button issue here on the thinking tree.
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