September 16, 2024 • 46 mins
A podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.
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Episode Transcript
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All right, welcome to The Thinking Tree, a podcast how believers renew their minds and
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reform their hearts. I'm Adam Sanchez. And I'm Jeff No.
And today we are talking about the issue of immigration.
Welcome back to The Thinking Tree. We've been taking on this series this season of the political
nature of our life in America and the church. And so today we are talking about immigration
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policies, specifically. Yeah.
Not an easy topic. No, and it can be very emotional. So we're
mindful of that. We're mindful of that. And our goal with that, to that end, is not to
promote just one way of thinking about the issue, but really to think about the issue
through a biblical lens, through a biblical worldview, understand some of the nuances of
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where we fit today in the US, and then to encourage some biblical thinking and response.
Yeah. So we're not trying to be just,
we're not trying to just say inflammatory statements.
Right. But also, as we've said in recent episodes, taking the concept to its extremes and saying,
what are the downstream issues that come about? Because both R and D, blue and red,
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have failed to handle this issue well in our country.
And that's what we're reaping today. That's why it's such a divisive
Right. issue. There is no
true solution, and there really hasn't been much effort.
To fix it. As much as has been in our media,
there's not been much effort. Right.
To address it. And it's not simple. We act like it's
as simple. It's not. It's very complex.
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Very. Because people are involved.
Yes. In lives and families and yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So with that, here's our question for today.
What theological principles should Christians think about when it comes to modern immigration
policies? So the first thought I had here was we need to remember the nature of immigration.
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The fact that America is an immigrant nation that's often promoted by one of the parties.
And that's true. I would even go so far as somebody who, we've talked about my personal
history. I didn't know this when I was younger, but as I was older, came to find out that I am
actually of Native American heritage, of a certain blood amount even to qualify for national benefit.
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But with that, even Native Americans immigrated to the United States. So people, if we remember
going back to the creation account, the Garden of Eden is where the first people were. And from
there, then they populated the rest of the world. And though there was, you know, that little tiny
event called the flood that affected everything as well. And then from there, the nations again,
spread throughout the world. So the world really is an immigrant world.
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Yes. It's not just the United States.
Right. Truly the world is an immigrant world. Just there are the nature of certain communities
that have existed more isolated around the world. And so they get more homogenous.
And that is the nature of this world. Right. Yeah. People have always moved.
They have. And they will always will because there's something about that. The idea of expansion,
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of new territory, new land. Exploration, all of that.
Right. Or just searching for a place where I can better myself and my family. It's always going
to happen. Yep. That's until until one day it doesn't.
Right. And then we should also say there are some sometimes nefarious reasons for movements as well.
That happens as well. Yeah, there are. Now the nature of communities,
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I think that's an important topic when we're talking about immigration, the nature of
communities. And we think about how societies exist. Societies exist when you have people
bonded together towards a common goal. Right. You think about towns or cities,
even farms and houses like the house that we're in now, it has walls. And it separates you and I
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from what's outside these walls. And by nature of our proximity and our closeness and our friendship,
we're going to protect each other against those things that happen outside. And then you just keep
expanding that as you go from one household to two to three or one farm to two to three to four.
And you build your walls around a community for the welfare and for the benefit of your people.
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And that concept really is rooted in family. That's where it goes back to everything was family.
And you had your family and your family was its own unit. And families weren't these tiny
things that we have today. If we go way back when to polygamy and to multiple wives and the nature
of multiple kids, these were large family units, dozens and hundreds even at times. And so it was
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for the good of the family and then I expanded on to be more towns and you have the extended families
and you're still seeking each other's good. And the nature of that is so interesting. As people,
we have this fear of others, this fear of outsiders, partially because of the fall of man into sin,
because there are, as you mentioned, nefarious things that happen. There are evil things
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that can happen. There are those who are on the outside who want what we have on the inside.
And so they come to pillage and to steal. And that has been the nature of humanity since the beginning.
Every archeological site you go to, it's walled cities and evidence of battles and fire.
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And stealing and pillaging and all of those things. And so we're not just making that
commentary about America today. We're saying this is history. This is human history. We're all a
part of that narrative. The Bible bears it out, the nature of man. And this is one of the things
that oftentimes Christians in their thinking about policies, they don't take into consideration what
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the Bible tells them about the sin of man. And if you don't understand that man is born wicked and
apart from redemption to Christ will continue to be wicked and be pagan, you're not going to
understand the potential nefarious possibilities of people going into a new land to take advantage
of that country or to commit crimes. Again, we're not making broad brush statements about all
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immigrants. We're just saying within a population of immigrants, there's always going to be a
percentage that are there for the wrong reason. And that is historical. So it's not just a United
States today issue. Now, when we look at today and modern immigration, it is such an interesting case
study even in our historical moment because every nation around the world today practices
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immigration differently. Nations may share different borders and those things impact their
nation. But if you were to look across even Europe, there are different standards for immigration and
what somebody needs to do to be a citizen or to be part of a given society. There is a moving
standard that each nation decides. For example, even if I wanted to move to New Zealand, I had a
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fascination with New Zealand when I was younger. You know this. You still do. I still love the
landscape of the country and the fact that sheep outnumber humans four to one. Wow. I think that
is just really cool. And the rugby team. And then you have the rugby team, all black. So all that's
fun. If I wanted to go there though, to be a citizen there is insanely difficult to be a citizen
in New Zealand. The last time I checked, which was a while ago to be fair, maybe 10 years ago or so,
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but you had to have a certain amount of money that you were willing to invest in their economy,
which usually meant buying a house. You had to have a job that fit on their skill trade. If you
didn't have a job that fit on their skill trade, you couldn't become a citizen. You come and visit,
but you can only apply for a visa. So you have to have a certain amount of money and a certain job,
a trade that you can contribute to their societal goals that they have in New Zealand. What a great
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standard. And then you have a certain amount of time where you have to fulfill those things and
show that you're for the betterment of society before you actually gain your citizenship. That's
in New Zealand. In New Zealand, you have a Commonwealth nation from Great Britain and all
of that. But every nation has their own standards for entering in and being a citizen. And that idea
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even of a nation having its own standards, we see that even in the Bible. Citizenship is mentioned
not just in the New Testament, for example, with the Philippians, but even in the Old Testament,
the idea of being a citizen and a part of a nation was a concept that even the Bible explained
because nations provide for their own. Every nation is to provide for their own people. And you have
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nations that provide for their own to the exclusion of other nations. So when you have the nation of
Tyre and Sidon, the nations of Tyre and Sidon, they're going to war because they have resources
and they want somebody else's resources. This is the nature. Wait, wait, are you saying like the
king of Israel didn't send billions of shekels to the Ammonites? I mean, I didn't write the Bible
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as a thing. I mean, common sense, right? Yes, exactly. As a nation, you do. You build walls,
you protect yourself. You are a community with shared values and ideals, and you don't want that
disturbed by outsiders. And so you work for the benefit of your citizens and you look for every
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citizen to contribute to the overall goal, view of who we are as a people. And that's what's changed
today. Right. Right. That's the difference today in our modern understanding of immigration. There's a
cultural expectation that wealthy nations take care of the poorer nations, make allowances so
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that all people can be cared for. And that is not just a US issue. We see what's been going on in
France for now about 30 years of their immigration policies and they're reaping the consequences of
that. When you look at various neighborhoods that have been overrun by certain people groups,
so much so that their normal law and order, their French police are not even able to be within
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certain community borders because of being overrun by quote unquote outsiders, but who really aren't
for the betterment of France, but are for their own vision, their own goal. And so the current
expectation doesn't really fit that concept that even we see in like critical race theory and
whatnot, this equity promise of everyone should have equal opportunity that feeds this issue of
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immigration saying that everyone should have equal opportunity and the wealthiest of nations, they
should be allowed to prosper and to gain financial standing. It's very interesting when you look at
the pressure that that puts on the wealthier nations like the US, the United States, the
pressure that puts not just on the US government, but you know the government's funded, we know by
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its citizens. The government is not funded by some other entity in terms of their income.
The government is funded by its citizens, it taxes its citizens and so it's funded. So our
government here in the United States is funded by our citizens. So our citizens are expected to make
sure that everyone in the world can prosper. That is the nature of today's understanding.
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It's insane.
We were just talking about in ancient times, it was the nation pursues the ends of its own nation,
pursues the betterment of its people, the people protected within its borders,
pursues its own welfare like a family. And we would say, and now if we like, I would draw this
microcosm out of it, would anyone give up care for their family, for someone who isn't their family?
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Right.
We're going to start there. We're going to start and say, no, I'm going to take care of my family
before I go and take care of somebody else. Not that I won't take care of them if I'm able to,
but shouldn't I start with care for my own?
Of course.
But that's what's broken today.
Right. And every government should only have one goal and that is the betterment of their citizens,
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the ones contributing to that country. Now we should make a distinction here between government
and individuals, right? Because you and I could have a heart for people in other countries. And
there are charity organizations we can give to, to help people. That's wonderful. And if we want to
do that, if that's on our heart, if that's, we read the Bible and we say we want to make sure
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that we're caring for the poor around the world, then we can do that. But that's not government's
job. That's the distinction. One of the biggest problems and mistakes we make as Christians is
to fail to see the difference between the biblical mandate for individuals versus the lack of biblical
mandate for governments. The Bible doesn't speak to governments. It speaks to individuals. I'm sure
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we'll say this many times over, but people at home who are listening to this have got to understand
that the mandate in scripture, they are commands to individual worshipers, not to governments.
Now we can point people, we can say, I want to vote for a government that lines up with those ideas.
But the fact, I'll give you an example. Did you know right now the US government,
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I'm laughing because it's so ridiculous. I don't even know what our debt is right now.
No, it's too high.
Yeah.
So we're living on borrowed money, but we give money to Israel and to the Palestinians and to Iran.
Are we crazy? Why are we funding all sides of a war when our own people are suffering?
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Yeah. Yeah. If we're recognizing people are trying to live off food stamps.
Right.
We're saying that we should care for the poor in our own country.
Right.
Why are we giving away money really to any war?
To terror sponsors. Yeah, anyway.
Maybe we didn't have another issue of issues that we weren't even thinking about
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and talking about that. What it highlights too is you're talking about the nature of these policies
in general, right? Policies in general, not just immigration policies, policies in general.
We have political aims within all of our policies.
Right. It's all driven by politics.
Right. It's not as simple as what is the issue, but it's driven by the aim of the issue. Who's
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this going to make money for? When we look at the issue of Iran and Israel and Hamas and Palestine,
when we look at these things, there are a lot of contracts to be had.
Yes. Oh, so much money.
This is not as simple as we're just trying to help. We're just humanitarian aid.
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I've seen firsthand the nature of government help and humanitarian aid. It's not what people
think it is here in the United States. The mini pier that they built over in
Gaza and so on.
Oh, right, right, right.
They built that temporary pier and had this big hoopla. It cost us millions and millions of dollars
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as a United States government to build that. That is not a temporary structure, nor was it the fix
that was needed for the moment. In fact, it didn't last very long because it was intended not to.
You look at those things, that is the nature of aid internationally in general, I would say,
is that there's always a strong desire for some reason, whether it's PR at the worst case scenario,
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or maybe it is to genuinely help people at the best case scenario. But those things are not
ultimately good and lasting. They're temporary flash in the pan, and then they're gone. Then who's left
to pick up the pieces? It's not those entities and those governments who wanted to help.
So these political aims make things complicated. Let's just talk about that. The political aims
within our immigration policies here in the US make this a complicated issue because we have those
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who are on the Democrat Party who are very for immigration in general. I know right now it seems
to be just slightly turning because people have been upset. It's election season. It's election
season. People are upset because they're saying jobs are scarcer and our money is going to fund
people who cross the border illegally. Then we deal with the reality of these debit cards that
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are given and money who's really given out and resources. Yes, that does, as you're noting,
look bad when your government is supposed to be caring for its own people, and you're devoting
more resources to those who are coming across the border without a legitimate process and pathway.
Correct. So that creates a divide. So you have a Democratic Party on one side, a Democrat Party
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on one side, you have the Republican Party on the other side saying, build the wall.
And you remember how divisive that was years ago. Build the wall was a huge thing. And the answer
was never really build the wall, nor was the answer, don't help anyone. The answer is a little
bit more nuanced in terms of what a government should do, but there are principles that a
government can operate with. When we look at how we can vote, there are principles, as you're noting,
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the wall is not an evil institution. A wall and a separation is good. It's good that my house has
walls and that it's not just free flowing. I'm able to sleep peacefully because of the watchman.
We talked about the watchman. Truly the watchman is the Lord on high and we know that, but there's
a goodness to having walls and centuries. And you lock your door. You lock your door and that's not
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evil. That's not a wicked thing. It would be far better if we trusted our neighbors and all those
things. I mean, we could talk about the perfect utopian society we'd all want to have. But we know
human nature. But we know the fallen nature of man. So there's nothing wrong with a wall.
There's also nothing wrong with wanting to help, as you mentioned, help those who are struggling
in some way to help the alien and soldier we'll talk about in just a second. But in principle,
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there's nothing wrong with wanting to help. But then there comes a question of whose responsibility
is it to help? And is it the government's responsibility to care for the alien and
sojourner? Or is it the personal responsibility of a human to care for the... And that's really
where we're going to find some distinctions here. Yeah. Yeah. And both parties are engaged in this
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because nobody wants to solve it because there's so much money being made on this. You have to
understand immigration is big business. There are NGOs, there are charity organizations that are
making big money. Actually, it's funny. I saw a study recently. The people that make the most
money in immigration are the drug cartels and human traffickers. That is what's really happening.
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It's big business. And then you have people that want cheap labor. And so there's all these dark
motivations behind immigration. So as a Christian, we need to look at that and say, okay,
your heart goes out to people that are struggling in their home country, that want to make their
life better, that want to bring their family. Your heart breaks for them, that pulls on your
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heartstrings and you want so badly to say, well, then my policy is let them in. But again, the
downstream issue is, is you're actually creating so many more darker problems. And it's really,
really, it's ugly. So you got to think through this very carefully and you got to think God is
a God of order. God is a God of laws. And we have to think about that as well. And I know we'll get
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to a legal process because that's really what we should be encouraging our politicians towards is
how do we provide security, but also how do we create a better process to bring in people who
are going to be a benefit to America? Because we're not anti-immigration. No, no. I mean,
because the country is an immigrant nation by nature. I think that, you know, as we consider
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this issue as well, you're bringing up the point of can we really care for everyone? And there is,
there are actually very good and helpful studies about how many people we actually can support
in the United States fiscally and then physically with the housing that we have. And, you know,
we know as Californians, that's a big issue, affordable housing. We don't have enough of it.
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Maybe we don't have any of it by some people's standards in terms of what affordable means.
So we know that housing is an issue, but we also look at the resources of food and whatnot. Now,
big picture, I'm just going to summarize the nature of these studies. What they show is that
the impact that we have in the United States of even if we were to double the amount of immigration
we had last year, you know, by, you know, several, you know, tens of millions, if we were to double
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our amount, that is still basically one drop in the bucket of the world population that actually
needs help, that needs assistance. It's not to say that we shouldn't help when we can at all.
We're not advocating for no help ever even from a personal standpoint, but when we look at this as
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a policy issue, is the policy really fixing the problem? The problem is not that we need to have
a bigger open border and make more allowances and have a bigger economy and have more people and
be able to support more. That is not the fix of the problem. The real fix of the problem is
addressing local economies around the world to be able to support and sustain their local communities.
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And I see that firsthand in country after country and village after village, that unless you have a
sustained local economy, you're not going to see people able to support themselves and then even
prosper in small ways. Not everyone needs to be an American. Not everyone should be an American,
in fact. But instead, we should seek to help people where they are. Not just say,
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we'll come here and they'll help you. It's far better to help build the economy where they are
and help build their ability to work or the ability to create jobs and income generation
rather than just to say, come over here and we'll solve your problems with our economy.
Right. Because I always come back to the Titanic analogy. At some point, the lifeboat is full.
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Right. And if you take on one more person, even though it's heartbreaking to see them struggling
in the water, you take them in, we all die. Right. You sacrifice everyone.
Correct. Correct. So again, that's just thinking to the logical extreme. At some point, you come
to the finite end of things. Just as you come at some point to the finite end of our debt
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as a nation, there's a cliff after this. So these things matter.
Yeah. There's a time when debts are due. Yeah. And when they're paid and due to be paid, there can be
serious consequences. There can be wars fought over the nature of unpaid debts.
Right. Okay. So real quick, before we get into some of the questions, because I love,
I always crack up when you say, I have questions. Even in service, right? You have questions.
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And we will. We're going to ask some questions here and dig into this issue just a bit more.
But before we do that, just to clarify, some in the Christian community, they confuse
the issue of immigration with loving your neighbor. Yes.
So I just want to hit on that real quick, that this issue of loving your neighbor, it's true.
That is a biblical command. We are to love the alien and the sojourner. We can even look at a
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passage here in just a minute to explain that. But one thing we need to make clear is, and you
noted this earlier, but I just want to make it abundantly clear, that loving your neighbor is an
imperative command for God's people. Right. That is not an imperative command for governments.
Correct. And nor is it an imperative command for policies on immigration.
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Right. And it is a big jump to say, my responsibility as a believer is the same as the
government's responsibility to care for people. Right.
Because if you take it that far, remember, the government does not bear a sword without reason.
So then I would ask that person who may advocate and say the government should do the same and
vice versa. But I'm going to say, does that mean that you as a human have the ability to execute
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on your whim based on what you think is right and wrong, because the government has that ability,
and the transversal nature of that means it can go both ways?
Right. No.
No, distinct roles. The government serves a specific role,
and God's people serve a specific role. So it's good to just distinguish that issue
that we should seek to love our neighbor. We can talk about how to practically do that
as believers, but the issue and the policy of immigration is not as simple
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as just saying, love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. Whereas the rebranding has come into
Christian institutions as welcoming the stranger, practicing hospitality.
Right. As well as the big one is love your neighbors. So that you're going to be scolded
by some in the Christian community if you say, well, hold on a second, we can't let everybody in.
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Oh, you're not loving your neighbor. It's an incredible guilt trip that they will put you on.
And this is one of those things that has infiltrated into the church in the last five or
six years from these intentional leftist attempts. Yeah. And I mean, even like the and campaign,
I think they promote this as well, and that's co-opted many churches. I have a couple of high
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level thoughts here. I just want to shoot them off. Feel free to chime in or refute me if you
think I'm wrong on any of these. But as I'm thinking about immigration, one of the first things
that hits me, we talked about history earlier, but no nation on this planet has an open policy
like we do. Right. It really is remarkable. We're seeing it in Europe as well. To an extent. Yeah.
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To an extent, but not as, not as the numbers are the same. Not voluminous in the same way as ours is.
Right. Nor does it come with the same social welfare that ours comes with as well. Yeah. Even
if we would, you know, people have different opinions about social healthcare and other things,
but in terms of the support that we are giving to those who come across our border, southern border,
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specifically illegally, it really is a very unique time in world history. And most other countries
are very stringent because they don't want to take in people who are poor and unable to contribute
to their society. So they set up refugee camps. Yeah. That's what I see internationally is refugee
camps. Even in poor nations, they set up refugee camps, but wealthy nations do that too. The United
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States is not really known for doing that. Right. Not a modern history anyways. Right. We're setting
that up. So I think just, and that just bears to be said that we are talking about a nation,
the United States, who has the most open border really of any wealthy nation. Yeah. So we're not
talking about a nation who has the most closed and stringent border. Yeah. And saying, hey,
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maybe we should talk about letting more people in legitimately, things like that. We're saying,
wow, we're talking about the nation who has the biggest, most open border in terms of numbers,
right? Out of anyone in the world, and it's the United States. So just think that bears to be
said. The issue of caring for a sojourner or an alien. Yeah. I think this is a very important
biblical principle. Yes. Because this often gets thrown at us, right? We go back to theocratic
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Israel. Israel living under Torah was called to love the alien and the sojourner. And somehow
that's drawn to America, which I find hysterical, bad hermeneutics, but anyway. Because they don't
want it the other way, right? Right. Right. Carry on. But yeah. Yeah. No, no. If you want to go
for it. Well, no. I mean, it just, we're not theocratic Israel living under Torah. Correct.
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We're the United States of America and we are a secular nation. So just, it's a terrible line
to draw. Again, there is the imperative for God's people that we need to care for those. So,
I know we've talked about this before. So if I meet somebody who has come into this country illegally
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and they're a person of need, I should try to meet that need. I should love that person as Christ
would love him. That's my job as an individual. The government has let him in. So they have dropped
the ball, but I still have to care for that person. So the distinction is such an important thing to
make. Yeah. And we were talking about the difference between a personal response and a state response.
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I mean, within that as well, I think what's important is we consider the biblical imperative
that command, it's Exodus 22. For those of you who have your Bibles, Exodus 22, 21, that command
is for Israel and then they remember that they were sojourners once. But the command is for their
personal response, but not for an entire policy. It's not even a policy for them necessarily as it
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is your personal worship of Yahweh, of God, is that you would care for others as you've been cared
for. This is your personal responsibility. And throughout the Old Testament, you see that
constantly is be careful, care for the widow, the orphan, the stranger, and the sojourner.
That's common. What's also though more common than that, and this is uncomfortable to talk
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about in the same context, but I think it's important, is that the Old Testament warns
God's people to not mix with others. Right. Right. You actually hear that far more than you hear the
commands for not mistreating. And I think it's part of the same conversation because you can care for
somebody who's traveling through, like you mentioned, but that's not a people group traveling
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through that you're mixing with. Right. This is, hey, we're going to care for this person they're
traveling through and we're going to minister to them. Right. We're going to speak truth and love
to them. We're not going to shrink back on explaining who God is and who Jesus is to them,
but this is for the individual or the family that comes through. But what you have over-archingly
throughout the Old Testament is be careful. Be careful because when you're with them, you'll
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become like them. Right. And this is not a them being less than of a human nature. This is a nature
of worship. Who do they worship and who do we worship? And believers should be mindful about
this, that we are very easily led astray even in our own country without traveling with very weird
ideas. I mean, everything from mysticism, you name it. All those things have come from without.
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Yeah. All those things come from other places. It's wild how much we don't think about the
influences that other people bring to us. And that's not a reason you can't care for them. It's just
don't be like them. Right. There's a distinction there. Right. So while these same groups will say
be like theocratic Israel and love the sojourner, they don't want to talk about the fact that
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Israel didn't go around opening the border to the Ammonites who are going to come in with their
pagan gods. And setting them high places. Oh wait, that did happen. And what was the result? Right.
They got pulled away. Right. Exactly. And punished. Right. Immensely punished. And the nation was
taken away. I mean, so there are consequences and we're not theocratic Israel. I love that you made
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that point. We're not that. But it's important to consider, look what happened when there was this
open policy of, hey, we're all going to mix together and what the hearts are turned away from God.
That's what we read over and over and over again. Yeah. You run into cultural confusion
in a lot of places. Europe is going through this right now and we should, I don't know if we want
(30:51):
to talk about Islam as its own freestanding thing, but they're struggling with folks who
come from Islamic countries and they build enclaves within the culture. They don't want
to be British or French, but they've come there because where they left was not a healthy place.
Then they come into a Western nation and then they want to create their own community within
(31:14):
the larger nation. They don't want to be any, they don't want to be British. And then they scream for
Sharia law, which is what they left. But they want to reproduce it so that sometimes you have cultural
confusion when you let in groups of people and they don't bring that benefit to the home country.
They just want to now recreate the conditions of what they had before. It makes no sense to us,
(31:37):
but it's happening. Because we're not leaving and trying to recreate something. What is interesting
is I don't know if you saw a recent poll in Iran, they ran this, but even the national people of
Iran are more inclined to pursue a democratic government than they are their current way of
doing things. Correct. The average person. It's very interesting. Which is interesting. So you
have people who are in the country saying, I don't know about this. But then people who left for a
(32:02):
better life and say, no, bring it back. But they left for a better life because it baffles me.
So we have that nature of the Old Testament with this theocratic understanding of caring for the
alien sojourner. So then people may say, well, let's forget the Old Testament for a second.
Let's go to the New Testament where it's love your neighbor as yourself. That's an easier thing.
(32:24):
You know, that's just an easier thing for me to deal with. Well, I mean, the first issue we're
going to have there is, well, your neighbor is somebody who's already there. Right. Not somebody
who is an alien and a sojourner. Right. Correct. So already right off the bat, that's misapplied. Not
that you can't find a principle that can be the same when you're caring for somebody who's traveling
through, but that's not a direct one for one. Yeah. The other one in the Old Testament is actually
(32:48):
more clear than this one is in terms of loving your neighbor. There's a lot of people in your
community that you can love right now. That's the thing. Vulnerable people. You know, single moms,
widows, orphans, go down the list, people that need help. And that's our primary responsibility.
Amen. As believers, we should care. And it's not an issue of policy at that point. It's not an issue
of the local government saying we need to do these things. It's actually an issue for God's people to
(33:12):
say we should be about caring for the widow and the orphan. That we do care for those in need.
And the church really should be that first line of care. It shouldn't be the state. It really should
be the church. And we need to weigh our responsibilities in our response to illegal
immigration so that we don't just say, well, we just hate, hate the idea of it and we hate those
(33:36):
who come across. It's like, ah, that's not the believers response. You can say, I think it's a
huge error of our government to not care for our own. You can confidently state that. But as a
believer, then you need to say, well, but if God has people in my community, people who are my
neighbor, then I should, how can I help? How can I love? How can I extend the generosity of Christ
(33:58):
to those who are here? I can still disagree with the policy. And then I can still say I'm responsible
for loving those who are in my community. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And we can call our government to do
what it should be doing, which is to provide safety and security for its citizens. Because again,
there are real, listen, I break, what breaks my heart is when I hear about a crime that was
(34:20):
committed by somebody that shouldn't have been here in the first place and a life was taken.
And is a very simple solution would have been a very simple solution.
That's if our government intentionally allow that person to come into our country,
turn a blind eye to it. And then a citizen's life was taken. That's borderline treasonous behavior
on the part of our government. It is betraying the people. Yeah. Yeah. So again, all these
(34:44):
downstream issues, right? That they come about. And so the whole, it's a racket. The whole thing
is a racket. People, bad people are making money on it. Bad people are allowing it. A percentage of
people coming in are bad people and they've come to take advantage of the system. By all measure,
we should be able to look at this and say, just pure common sense, biblical, yes, but common sense,
(35:08):
this is not working. This is not healthy, good, and it's creating more confusion and chaos.
Yeah. We definitely have more problems today. There's no question about it. You know, when I
think about this issue of immigration here in the US, there are a couple of things that I would
promote as people wrestle with it for their own personal, their own personal decision. So they're
(35:28):
thinking about policies and how they vote. And I would say that we, we, as a people, you mentioned
this, like we cannot support in the US everyone. Right. And I know this. I work for Children's
Hunger Fund. I get to travel around the world and see how great the needs are. They're so great.
And even where we're working as an organization, you know, we recently took some people and traveled
(35:52):
to Uganda and showed them and they said, this is still just a drop in the bucket here. I mean,
they recognized and they weren't discouraged. They just recognize how great, how great the needs are.
It's giant. It is so big. We can't even fathom how great the needs are. And you think about how God
actually then knows how great the needs are. He knows every human, every life, every need,
(36:14):
every person who dies of malnutrition every day, every person who dies from lack of clean water
every day, every person who dies from lack of medication, you name it. He knows all those
things. Every person who's taken advantage of and abused and he knows all of those things.
And we know a fraction of it and we're crushed. God sees all of it. So our work as humans,
(36:36):
kind of like we were talking about the climate, we're not going to be able to affect weather,
nor are we going to be able to affect the nature of poverty. Even Jesus said that poor will always
be with you. But he did say blessed are the poor in spirit, not blessed are the poor just period,
blessed are the poor in spirit who recognize their own need, their own depravity, their own nature of
(36:57):
nature of dependency upon God. And that's a grace, but then the poor practically will always be with
us. I think it's important for us to remember as Americans, we can't solve the issue of poverty.
And we can't use that either as a crutch to say we support any immigration because we just want to
meet the needs of all people. The second thing I would encourage is this, right out of second
(37:17):
Thessalonians three, and this is a principle that Paul used. He said, we were always willing to work.
We were always willing to work. And Paul's testimony was as a tent maker, he labored,
he paid for his own letters often and for his own travel. And it wasn't a burden to those who he
stated. Very remarkable testimony for position and time that he filled. But what he says, he gives
(37:40):
this command in second Thessalonians three verse 10, he says, if anyone's not willing to work,
neither let him eat. He says, we see the work is good and those willing to work and labor should
be treated especially well compared to the lazy and slothful busybodies. Essentially what he says.
That is a good principle. And I see that internationally when we're dealing with
(38:02):
very poor economies, that there's a difference between those who are unable to work, whether
that's through physical disability, a child who's eight years old is not going to be able to go and
to work. And so there's a nature of support and care for those unable, but then there's those who
are able and choose not to. There are those men who choose to get drunk every day, who choose to
(38:23):
to do things that they should not be doing and they're not willing to work. There's a very big
difference. And even our international pastors see that they see the distinction between those who
are unable versus those who are able, but unwilling. And so we should have that in our minds as we
think about immigration policies that we will promote the ones that we would vote for potentially,
we should pursue really a biblical mind about these things of encouraging those who are going
(38:48):
to contribute to the general welfare of society, those who are going to seek the good of their
neighbor as well and not just seek to take, but seek to give as well. Those are the things we
should think about when we're considering immigration policies. Agreed. Yeah. And as I said
earlier, we've got to just improve the legal process. Yet you feel so bad for people that
(39:08):
want to come to America and contribute. Legitimately. Yeah. Yeah. And they're skilled and they bring
something to the, that we would welcome. And they've, they've, they've gone to immense cost
and waited and waited to hear something. And it's just so slow or been told no, or been told no.
And meanwhile, you have people flying into Mexico or Honduras or whatever, and then walking across
(39:34):
the border and these poor people are like, what do I have to do? It's so we've got to improve that
process, make it more efficient. We've got to vet people. Well, we've got to vote for policies that
say we want to vet people and we want to bring in those who benefit our country, that want to be a
part of this, this place that we love and are going to come in and are going to be a contributing
(39:55):
factor. It doesn't matter. I don't care what color you are. I don't care. I don't care any of it.
If you want to come and be an American and, and you can still be from where you're from, that's
wonderful. But you, but you want to contribute here, you know, those are the people we want,
but you've got to make the process better. And then when somebody becomes a threat or,
or commits a crime, you it's, you're quick to deport because again, you're harming your
(40:19):
citizenry. The principles are so simple. Let's just get past the politics. Let their starting
nation now take care of them if they, but can I just say then one, like going back to the church
and this infiltration of things, if you hear a church leader frame this whole thing about
immigration with these cherry picked biblical phrases and they have not thought through any
(40:44):
of these things, challenge them on that. Ask the questions like, look, look, I want to respect you.
You're my pastor. You're an elder, whatever, but you're, you're using this phrase, love your
neighbor or welcome the stranger. Okay. Have you thought this all the way through? Well, I mean,
what, what exactly are you asking us to do here? Catch phrase Christianity is frustrating.
(41:09):
Ask hard questions. Where's this going? What are you really calling me to do as my church leader?
So just don't be naive to it. Yeah. That's a good encouragement. You know,
what's interesting about this whole debate, even of immigration policies, I have many friends who,
who are not born here, not born in the United States, born in other countries and they immigrated
(41:29):
legally and through an arduous process, very difficultly. And the funny thing is they,
they went through that and they would advocate for nothing different in terms of going a legitimate
route. They think that it's good, healthy and helpful that people would go through a process.
Now it is difficult and painful and it brought some pain. And so there are improvements that
(41:52):
we can make without question, but what they are not advocating for is an open border. Right.
Cause they know because they know the reality. Right. And that's the thing is that even, you know,
those people we talked about, the people that we would love to see come to the U S you know,
as, as citizens of the U S we would love to see people who come in, who want to contribute and
seek the welfare and the general prosperity of the people of the United States. Those people are not
(42:17):
the problem. Right. Those people are blessing and those people, as I'm mentioning, are my neighbors.
Those people are my coworkers. Those people I do work with by God's grace in various ways.
They're contributing, but there are also unintended consequences of having a very open border. Like
you're mentioning that does not lead to that eventuality. It doesn't lead to the eventuality
(42:40):
of everyone contributing to the good of the whole, but actually takes away resources for one,
limits the ability to care for our own people. Right. And then really makes things difficult
down the line to actually create opportunities for the poorest of the poor in our country. Right.
Because we're actually handing out money. I know. To those who are coming here with nothing. Yeah.
(43:02):
And so it's heartbreaking to see people come across with nothing. Yeah. But then we're looking at our
own people who are saying, I'm struggling to buy. Right. To put food on the table. Or to find a job.
But we're giving out a cash card, debit card to those who crossed over. That is very difficult.
Right. So if you're again, as a Christian leader, if you're saying, well, we want to bless these
strangers as they come in, but as we bless the stranger, are we doing injustice to the citizen?
(43:28):
Are we swapping out one for another? So is that really something that you want to promote?
And it's really not tenable at the end of the day. And this goes back through history. History
shows you care for your own first. And even in the New Testament, we care first for our own household,
escalation six. Right. Then we can care for others who are outside. That's right. And so this is a
(43:49):
consistent principle from God's word that it is not an evil thing to want a border. And so for
Christians who are listening to this, it is not evil to want to border. But let's make sure that
our desire for a border is not just self-serving. Right. That's true. That it's not just so that I
can benefit. Yes, our nation should benefit and we are part of that nation. But let's make sure
(44:10):
that the issue isn't just anger and vitriol, but recognizing that a border can be good and healthy
for people, for nations and people groups. And at the same time, while that is true,
we as individuals who respond to Jesus with faithfulness can love our neighbor. We can
care for the alien and the sojourner as we have opportunity to do so. And both of those can be
(44:34):
true at the same time. Amen. We can ask for a border that is secure and safe and that there's
a process towards citizenship. And as believers, we can care for others who may find themselves in
one of those difficult situations. There you go. That's a good bow you just tied on it.
If only our politicians could figure out a way to make a way through this. Yeah.
(44:57):
Okay. Well, there's so much that we could talk about along these lines. I know we could spend
hours discussing it. But one thing I would encourage listeners is as you're thinking
about these issues, whether it's this one immigration on this episode or the previous
episode, we talked about the nature of climate change and coming up, we're going to take on some
other hard hitting issues. As these come up, I would encourage you have good healthy conversations
(45:21):
with other believers. Ask some hard questions. Talk to your leaders, you know, us at Oak Hill,
all of our elders, we're saying our doors are open, come and talk to us about these things.
But I would encourage you wrestle with these things so you can be a light in the circles that
God has placed you in. Amen. That you would not be somebody who just is angry and turning others off
or you're just silent and not saying anything, but that you would actually bring light and hope and
(45:45):
truth. And even as you ask those questions, like Jeff says, I got questions, as you're that person
who says, I got questions, when somebody promotes a policy that may not be in alignment with God's
word, that you might ask questions that help other people think. Yes. And help them reason
through the issue as well in a way that is very non-confrontational because it doesn't need to be.
Right. It doesn't need to be a fight. We can hold our firm convictions and still encourage good
(46:08):
thinking with others. Yep. Be informed. So that's the encouragement. All right, friends. Well,
it's been good to be with you, Jeff. Thanks for your thoughts on immigration. I know you're holding
back. There's more that we could talk about. But we do pray this conversation has helped you
to renew your minds and reform your hearts. And we'll see you next time on The Thinking Trade.
All right, welcome to The Thinking Tree, a podcast how believers renew their minds and
(00:03):
reform their hearts. I'm Adam Sanchez. And I'm Jeff No.
And today we are talking about the issue of immigration.
Welcome back to The Thinking Tree. We've been taking on this series this season of the political
nature of our life in America and the church. And so today we are talking about immigration
(00:29):
policies, specifically. Yeah.
Not an easy topic. No, and it can be very emotional. So we're
mindful of that. We're mindful of that. And our goal with that, to that end, is not to
promote just one way of thinking about the issue, but really to think about the issue
through a biblical lens, through a biblical worldview, understand some of the nuances of
(00:51):
where we fit today in the US, and then to encourage some biblical thinking and response.
Yeah. So we're not trying to be just,
we're not trying to just say inflammatory statements.
Right. But also, as we've said in recent episodes, taking the concept to its extremes and saying,
what are the downstream issues that come about? Because both R and D, blue and red,
(01:19):
have failed to handle this issue well in our country.
And that's what we're reaping today. That's why it's such a divisive
Right. issue. There is no
true solution, and there really hasn't been much effort.
To fix it. As much as has been in our media,
there's not been much effort. Right.
To address it. And it's not simple. We act like it's
as simple. It's not. It's very complex.
(01:41):
Very. Because people are involved.
Yes. In lives and families and yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So with that, here's our question for today.
What theological principles should Christians think about when it comes to modern immigration
policies? So the first thought I had here was we need to remember the nature of immigration.
(02:02):
The fact that America is an immigrant nation that's often promoted by one of the parties.
And that's true. I would even go so far as somebody who, we've talked about my personal
history. I didn't know this when I was younger, but as I was older, came to find out that I am
actually of Native American heritage, of a certain blood amount even to qualify for national benefit.
(02:23):
But with that, even Native Americans immigrated to the United States. So people, if we remember
going back to the creation account, the Garden of Eden is where the first people were. And from
there, then they populated the rest of the world. And though there was, you know, that little tiny
event called the flood that affected everything as well. And then from there, the nations again,
spread throughout the world. So the world really is an immigrant world.
(02:48):
Yes. It's not just the United States.
Right. Truly the world is an immigrant world. Just there are the nature of certain communities
that have existed more isolated around the world. And so they get more homogenous.
And that is the nature of this world. Right. Yeah. People have always moved.
They have. And they will always will because there's something about that. The idea of expansion,
(03:09):
of new territory, new land. Exploration, all of that.
Right. Or just searching for a place where I can better myself and my family. It's always going
to happen. Yep. That's until until one day it doesn't.
Right. And then we should also say there are some sometimes nefarious reasons for movements as well.
That happens as well. Yeah, there are. Now the nature of communities,
(03:32):
I think that's an important topic when we're talking about immigration, the nature of
communities. And we think about how societies exist. Societies exist when you have people
bonded together towards a common goal. Right. You think about towns or cities,
even farms and houses like the house that we're in now, it has walls. And it separates you and I
(03:54):
from what's outside these walls. And by nature of our proximity and our closeness and our friendship,
we're going to protect each other against those things that happen outside. And then you just keep
expanding that as you go from one household to two to three or one farm to two to three to four.
And you build your walls around a community for the welfare and for the benefit of your people.
(04:16):
And that concept really is rooted in family. That's where it goes back to everything was family.
And you had your family and your family was its own unit. And families weren't these tiny
things that we have today. If we go way back when to polygamy and to multiple wives and the nature
of multiple kids, these were large family units, dozens and hundreds even at times. And so it was
(04:40):
for the good of the family and then I expanded on to be more towns and you have the extended families
and you're still seeking each other's good. And the nature of that is so interesting. As people,
we have this fear of others, this fear of outsiders, partially because of the fall of man into sin,
because there are, as you mentioned, nefarious things that happen. There are evil things
(05:03):
that can happen. There are those who are on the outside who want what we have on the inside.
And so they come to pillage and to steal. And that has been the nature of humanity since the beginning.
Every archeological site you go to, it's walled cities and evidence of battles and fire.
(05:24):
And stealing and pillaging and all of those things. And so we're not just making that
commentary about America today. We're saying this is history. This is human history. We're all a
part of that narrative. The Bible bears it out, the nature of man. And this is one of the things
that oftentimes Christians in their thinking about policies, they don't take into consideration what
(05:44):
the Bible tells them about the sin of man. And if you don't understand that man is born wicked and
apart from redemption to Christ will continue to be wicked and be pagan, you're not going to
understand the potential nefarious possibilities of people going into a new land to take advantage
of that country or to commit crimes. Again, we're not making broad brush statements about all
(06:08):
immigrants. We're just saying within a population of immigrants, there's always going to be a
percentage that are there for the wrong reason. And that is historical. So it's not just a United
States today issue. Now, when we look at today and modern immigration, it is such an interesting case
study even in our historical moment because every nation around the world today practices
(06:31):
immigration differently. Nations may share different borders and those things impact their
nation. But if you were to look across even Europe, there are different standards for immigration and
what somebody needs to do to be a citizen or to be part of a given society. There is a moving
standard that each nation decides. For example, even if I wanted to move to New Zealand, I had a
(06:54):
fascination with New Zealand when I was younger. You know this. You still do. I still love the
landscape of the country and the fact that sheep outnumber humans four to one. Wow. I think that
is just really cool. And the rugby team. And then you have the rugby team, all black. So all that's
fun. If I wanted to go there though, to be a citizen there is insanely difficult to be a citizen
in New Zealand. The last time I checked, which was a while ago to be fair, maybe 10 years ago or so,
(07:19):
but you had to have a certain amount of money that you were willing to invest in their economy,
which usually meant buying a house. You had to have a job that fit on their skill trade. If you
didn't have a job that fit on their skill trade, you couldn't become a citizen. You come and visit,
but you can only apply for a visa. So you have to have a certain amount of money and a certain job,
a trade that you can contribute to their societal goals that they have in New Zealand. What a great
(07:43):
standard. And then you have a certain amount of time where you have to fulfill those things and
show that you're for the betterment of society before you actually gain your citizenship. That's
in New Zealand. In New Zealand, you have a Commonwealth nation from Great Britain and all
of that. But every nation has their own standards for entering in and being a citizen. And that idea
(08:04):
even of a nation having its own standards, we see that even in the Bible. Citizenship is mentioned
not just in the New Testament, for example, with the Philippians, but even in the Old Testament,
the idea of being a citizen and a part of a nation was a concept that even the Bible explained
because nations provide for their own. Every nation is to provide for their own people. And you have
(08:27):
nations that provide for their own to the exclusion of other nations. So when you have the nation of
Tyre and Sidon, the nations of Tyre and Sidon, they're going to war because they have resources
and they want somebody else's resources. This is the nature. Wait, wait, are you saying like the
king of Israel didn't send billions of shekels to the Ammonites? I mean, I didn't write the Bible
(08:55):
as a thing. I mean, common sense, right? Yes, exactly. As a nation, you do. You build walls,
you protect yourself. You are a community with shared values and ideals, and you don't want that
disturbed by outsiders. And so you work for the benefit of your citizens and you look for every
(09:15):
citizen to contribute to the overall goal, view of who we are as a people. And that's what's changed
today. Right. Right. That's the difference today in our modern understanding of immigration. There's a
cultural expectation that wealthy nations take care of the poorer nations, make allowances so
(09:36):
that all people can be cared for. And that is not just a US issue. We see what's been going on in
France for now about 30 years of their immigration policies and they're reaping the consequences of
that. When you look at various neighborhoods that have been overrun by certain people groups,
so much so that their normal law and order, their French police are not even able to be within
(10:02):
certain community borders because of being overrun by quote unquote outsiders, but who really aren't
for the betterment of France, but are for their own vision, their own goal. And so the current
expectation doesn't really fit that concept that even we see in like critical race theory and
whatnot, this equity promise of everyone should have equal opportunity that feeds this issue of
(10:28):
immigration saying that everyone should have equal opportunity and the wealthiest of nations, they
should be allowed to prosper and to gain financial standing. It's very interesting when you look at
the pressure that that puts on the wealthier nations like the US, the United States, the
pressure that puts not just on the US government, but you know the government's funded, we know by
(10:49):
its citizens. The government is not funded by some other entity in terms of their income.
The government is funded by its citizens, it taxes its citizens and so it's funded. So our
government here in the United States is funded by our citizens. So our citizens are expected to make
sure that everyone in the world can prosper. That is the nature of today's understanding.
(11:14):
It's insane.
We were just talking about in ancient times, it was the nation pursues the ends of its own nation,
pursues the betterment of its people, the people protected within its borders,
pursues its own welfare like a family. And we would say, and now if we like, I would draw this
microcosm out of it, would anyone give up care for their family, for someone who isn't their family?
(11:37):
Right.
We're going to start there. We're going to start and say, no, I'm going to take care of my family
before I go and take care of somebody else. Not that I won't take care of them if I'm able to,
but shouldn't I start with care for my own?
Of course.
But that's what's broken today.
Right. And every government should only have one goal and that is the betterment of their citizens,
(11:59):
the ones contributing to that country. Now we should make a distinction here between government
and individuals, right? Because you and I could have a heart for people in other countries. And
there are charity organizations we can give to, to help people. That's wonderful. And if we want to
do that, if that's on our heart, if that's, we read the Bible and we say we want to make sure
(12:22):
that we're caring for the poor around the world, then we can do that. But that's not government's
job. That's the distinction. One of the biggest problems and mistakes we make as Christians is
to fail to see the difference between the biblical mandate for individuals versus the lack of biblical
mandate for governments. The Bible doesn't speak to governments. It speaks to individuals. I'm sure
(12:45):
we'll say this many times over, but people at home who are listening to this have got to understand
that the mandate in scripture, they are commands to individual worshipers, not to governments.
Now we can point people, we can say, I want to vote for a government that lines up with those ideas.
But the fact, I'll give you an example. Did you know right now the US government,
(13:05):
I'm laughing because it's so ridiculous. I don't even know what our debt is right now.
No, it's too high.
Yeah.
So we're living on borrowed money, but we give money to Israel and to the Palestinians and to Iran.
Are we crazy? Why are we funding all sides of a war when our own people are suffering?
(13:30):
Yeah. Yeah. If we're recognizing people are trying to live off food stamps.
Right.
We're saying that we should care for the poor in our own country.
Right.
Why are we giving away money really to any war?
To terror sponsors. Yeah, anyway.
Maybe we didn't have another issue of issues that we weren't even thinking about
(13:52):
and talking about that. What it highlights too is you're talking about the nature of these policies
in general, right? Policies in general, not just immigration policies, policies in general.
We have political aims within all of our policies.
Right. It's all driven by politics.
Right. It's not as simple as what is the issue, but it's driven by the aim of the issue. Who's
(14:15):
this going to make money for? When we look at the issue of Iran and Israel and Hamas and Palestine,
when we look at these things, there are a lot of contracts to be had.
Yes. Oh, so much money.
This is not as simple as we're just trying to help. We're just humanitarian aid.
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I've seen firsthand the nature of government help and humanitarian aid. It's not what people
think it is here in the United States. The mini pier that they built over in
Gaza and so on.
Oh, right, right, right.
They built that temporary pier and had this big hoopla. It cost us millions and millions of dollars
(14:58):
as a United States government to build that. That is not a temporary structure, nor was it the fix
that was needed for the moment. In fact, it didn't last very long because it was intended not to.
You look at those things, that is the nature of aid internationally in general, I would say,
is that there's always a strong desire for some reason, whether it's PR at the worst case scenario,
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or maybe it is to genuinely help people at the best case scenario. But those things are not
ultimately good and lasting. They're temporary flash in the pan, and then they're gone. Then who's left
to pick up the pieces? It's not those entities and those governments who wanted to help.
So these political aims make things complicated. Let's just talk about that. The political aims
within our immigration policies here in the US make this a complicated issue because we have those
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who are on the Democrat Party who are very for immigration in general. I know right now it seems
to be just slightly turning because people have been upset. It's election season. It's election
season. People are upset because they're saying jobs are scarcer and our money is going to fund
people who cross the border illegally. Then we deal with the reality of these debit cards that
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are given and money who's really given out and resources. Yes, that does, as you're noting,
look bad when your government is supposed to be caring for its own people, and you're devoting
more resources to those who are coming across the border without a legitimate process and pathway.
Correct. So that creates a divide. So you have a Democratic Party on one side, a Democrat Party
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on one side, you have the Republican Party on the other side saying, build the wall.
And you remember how divisive that was years ago. Build the wall was a huge thing. And the answer
was never really build the wall, nor was the answer, don't help anyone. The answer is a little
bit more nuanced in terms of what a government should do, but there are principles that a
government can operate with. When we look at how we can vote, there are principles, as you're noting,
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the wall is not an evil institution. A wall and a separation is good. It's good that my house has
walls and that it's not just free flowing. I'm able to sleep peacefully because of the watchman.
We talked about the watchman. Truly the watchman is the Lord on high and we know that, but there's
a goodness to having walls and centuries. And you lock your door. You lock your door and that's not
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evil. That's not a wicked thing. It would be far better if we trusted our neighbors and all those
things. I mean, we could talk about the perfect utopian society we'd all want to have. But we know
human nature. But we know the fallen nature of man. So there's nothing wrong with a wall.
There's also nothing wrong with wanting to help, as you mentioned, help those who are struggling
in some way to help the alien and soldier we'll talk about in just a second. But in principle,
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there's nothing wrong with wanting to help. But then there comes a question of whose responsibility
is it to help? And is it the government's responsibility to care for the alien and
sojourner? Or is it the personal responsibility of a human to care for the... And that's really
where we're going to find some distinctions here. Yeah. Yeah. And both parties are engaged in this
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because nobody wants to solve it because there's so much money being made on this. You have to
understand immigration is big business. There are NGOs, there are charity organizations that are
making big money. Actually, it's funny. I saw a study recently. The people that make the most
money in immigration are the drug cartels and human traffickers. That is what's really happening.
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It's big business. And then you have people that want cheap labor. And so there's all these dark
motivations behind immigration. So as a Christian, we need to look at that and say, okay,
your heart goes out to people that are struggling in their home country, that want to make their
life better, that want to bring their family. Your heart breaks for them, that pulls on your
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heartstrings and you want so badly to say, well, then my policy is let them in. But again, the
downstream issue is, is you're actually creating so many more darker problems. And it's really,
really, it's ugly. So you got to think through this very carefully and you got to think God is
a God of order. God is a God of laws. And we have to think about that as well. And I know we'll get
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to a legal process because that's really what we should be encouraging our politicians towards is
how do we provide security, but also how do we create a better process to bring in people who
are going to be a benefit to America? Because we're not anti-immigration. No, no. I mean,
because the country is an immigrant nation by nature. I think that, you know, as we consider
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this issue as well, you're bringing up the point of can we really care for everyone? And there is,
there are actually very good and helpful studies about how many people we actually can support
in the United States fiscally and then physically with the housing that we have. And, you know,
we know as Californians, that's a big issue, affordable housing. We don't have enough of it.
(20:06):
Maybe we don't have any of it by some people's standards in terms of what affordable means.
So we know that housing is an issue, but we also look at the resources of food and whatnot. Now,
big picture, I'm just going to summarize the nature of these studies. What they show is that
the impact that we have in the United States of even if we were to double the amount of immigration
we had last year, you know, by, you know, several, you know, tens of millions, if we were to double
(20:30):
our amount, that is still basically one drop in the bucket of the world population that actually
needs help, that needs assistance. It's not to say that we shouldn't help when we can at all.
We're not advocating for no help ever even from a personal standpoint, but when we look at this as
(20:50):
a policy issue, is the policy really fixing the problem? The problem is not that we need to have
a bigger open border and make more allowances and have a bigger economy and have more people and
be able to support more. That is not the fix of the problem. The real fix of the problem is
addressing local economies around the world to be able to support and sustain their local communities.
(21:14):
And I see that firsthand in country after country and village after village, that unless you have a
sustained local economy, you're not going to see people able to support themselves and then even
prosper in small ways. Not everyone needs to be an American. Not everyone should be an American,
in fact. But instead, we should seek to help people where they are. Not just say,
(21:35):
we'll come here and they'll help you. It's far better to help build the economy where they are
and help build their ability to work or the ability to create jobs and income generation
rather than just to say, come over here and we'll solve your problems with our economy.
Right. Because I always come back to the Titanic analogy. At some point, the lifeboat is full.
(21:56):
Right. And if you take on one more person, even though it's heartbreaking to see them struggling
in the water, you take them in, we all die. Right. You sacrifice everyone.
Correct. Correct. So again, that's just thinking to the logical extreme. At some point, you come
to the finite end of things. Just as you come at some point to the finite end of our debt
(22:16):
as a nation, there's a cliff after this. So these things matter.
Yeah. There's a time when debts are due. Yeah. And when they're paid and due to be paid, there can be
serious consequences. There can be wars fought over the nature of unpaid debts.
Right. Okay. So real quick, before we get into some of the questions, because I love,
I always crack up when you say, I have questions. Even in service, right? You have questions.
(22:40):
And we will. We're going to ask some questions here and dig into this issue just a bit more.
But before we do that, just to clarify, some in the Christian community, they confuse
the issue of immigration with loving your neighbor. Yes.
So I just want to hit on that real quick, that this issue of loving your neighbor, it's true.
That is a biblical command. We are to love the alien and the sojourner. We can even look at a
(23:04):
passage here in just a minute to explain that. But one thing we need to make clear is, and you
noted this earlier, but I just want to make it abundantly clear, that loving your neighbor is an
imperative command for God's people. Right. That is not an imperative command for governments.
Correct. And nor is it an imperative command for policies on immigration.
(23:25):
Right. And it is a big jump to say, my responsibility as a believer is the same as the
government's responsibility to care for people. Right.
Because if you take it that far, remember, the government does not bear a sword without reason.
So then I would ask that person who may advocate and say the government should do the same and
vice versa. But I'm going to say, does that mean that you as a human have the ability to execute
(23:50):
on your whim based on what you think is right and wrong, because the government has that ability,
and the transversal nature of that means it can go both ways?
Right. No.
No, distinct roles. The government serves a specific role,
and God's people serve a specific role. So it's good to just distinguish that issue
that we should seek to love our neighbor. We can talk about how to practically do that
as believers, but the issue and the policy of immigration is not as simple
(24:14):
as just saying, love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. Whereas the rebranding has come into
Christian institutions as welcoming the stranger, practicing hospitality.
Right. As well as the big one is love your neighbors. So that you're going to be scolded
by some in the Christian community if you say, well, hold on a second, we can't let everybody in.
(24:36):
Oh, you're not loving your neighbor. It's an incredible guilt trip that they will put you on.
And this is one of those things that has infiltrated into the church in the last five or
six years from these intentional leftist attempts. Yeah. And I mean, even like the and campaign,
I think they promote this as well, and that's co-opted many churches. I have a couple of high
(24:58):
level thoughts here. I just want to shoot them off. Feel free to chime in or refute me if you
think I'm wrong on any of these. But as I'm thinking about immigration, one of the first things
that hits me, we talked about history earlier, but no nation on this planet has an open policy
like we do. Right. It really is remarkable. We're seeing it in Europe as well. To an extent. Yeah.
(25:20):
To an extent, but not as, not as the numbers are the same. Not voluminous in the same way as ours is.
Right. Nor does it come with the same social welfare that ours comes with as well. Yeah. Even
if we would, you know, people have different opinions about social healthcare and other things,
but in terms of the support that we are giving to those who come across our border, southern border,
(25:40):
specifically illegally, it really is a very unique time in world history. And most other countries
are very stringent because they don't want to take in people who are poor and unable to contribute
to their society. So they set up refugee camps. Yeah. That's what I see internationally is refugee
camps. Even in poor nations, they set up refugee camps, but wealthy nations do that too. The United
(26:03):
States is not really known for doing that. Right. Not a modern history anyways. Right. We're setting
that up. So I think just, and that just bears to be said that we are talking about a nation,
the United States, who has the most open border really of any wealthy nation. Yeah. So we're not
talking about a nation who has the most closed and stringent border. Yeah. And saying, hey,
(26:26):
maybe we should talk about letting more people in legitimately, things like that. We're saying,
wow, we're talking about the nation who has the biggest, most open border in terms of numbers,
right? Out of anyone in the world, and it's the United States. So just think that bears to be
said. The issue of caring for a sojourner or an alien. Yeah. I think this is a very important
biblical principle. Yes. Because this often gets thrown at us, right? We go back to theocratic
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Israel. Israel living under Torah was called to love the alien and the sojourner. And somehow
that's drawn to America, which I find hysterical, bad hermeneutics, but anyway. Because they don't
want it the other way, right? Right. Right. Carry on. But yeah. Yeah. No, no. If you want to go
for it. Well, no. I mean, it just, we're not theocratic Israel living under Torah. Correct.
(27:13):
We're the United States of America and we are a secular nation. So just, it's a terrible line
to draw. Again, there is the imperative for God's people that we need to care for those. So,
I know we've talked about this before. So if I meet somebody who has come into this country illegally
(27:33):
and they're a person of need, I should try to meet that need. I should love that person as Christ
would love him. That's my job as an individual. The government has let him in. So they have dropped
the ball, but I still have to care for that person. So the distinction is such an important thing to
make. Yeah. And we were talking about the difference between a personal response and a state response.
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I mean, within that as well, I think what's important is we consider the biblical imperative
that command, it's Exodus 22. For those of you who have your Bibles, Exodus 22, 21, that command
is for Israel and then they remember that they were sojourners once. But the command is for their
personal response, but not for an entire policy. It's not even a policy for them necessarily as it
(28:20):
is your personal worship of Yahweh, of God, is that you would care for others as you've been cared
for. This is your personal responsibility. And throughout the Old Testament, you see that
constantly is be careful, care for the widow, the orphan, the stranger, and the sojourner.
That's common. What's also though more common than that, and this is uncomfortable to talk
(28:42):
about in the same context, but I think it's important, is that the Old Testament warns
God's people to not mix with others. Right. Right. You actually hear that far more than you hear the
commands for not mistreating. And I think it's part of the same conversation because you can care for
somebody who's traveling through, like you mentioned, but that's not a people group traveling
(29:03):
through that you're mixing with. Right. This is, hey, we're going to care for this person they're
traveling through and we're going to minister to them. Right. We're going to speak truth and love
to them. We're not going to shrink back on explaining who God is and who Jesus is to them,
but this is for the individual or the family that comes through. But what you have over-archingly
throughout the Old Testament is be careful. Be careful because when you're with them, you'll
(29:26):
become like them. Right. And this is not a them being less than of a human nature. This is a nature
of worship. Who do they worship and who do we worship? And believers should be mindful about
this, that we are very easily led astray even in our own country without traveling with very weird
ideas. I mean, everything from mysticism, you name it. All those things have come from without.
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Yeah. All those things come from other places. It's wild how much we don't think about the
influences that other people bring to us. And that's not a reason you can't care for them. It's just
don't be like them. Right. There's a distinction there. Right. So while these same groups will say
be like theocratic Israel and love the sojourner, they don't want to talk about the fact that
(30:11):
Israel didn't go around opening the border to the Ammonites who are going to come in with their
pagan gods. And setting them high places. Oh wait, that did happen. And what was the result? Right.
They got pulled away. Right. Exactly. And punished. Right. Immensely punished. And the nation was
taken away. I mean, so there are consequences and we're not theocratic Israel. I love that you made
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that point. We're not that. But it's important to consider, look what happened when there was this
open policy of, hey, we're all going to mix together and what the hearts are turned away from God.
That's what we read over and over and over again. Yeah. You run into cultural confusion
in a lot of places. Europe is going through this right now and we should, I don't know if we want
(30:51):
to talk about Islam as its own freestanding thing, but they're struggling with folks who
come from Islamic countries and they build enclaves within the culture. They don't want
to be British or French, but they've come there because where they left was not a healthy place.
Then they come into a Western nation and then they want to create their own community within
(31:14):
the larger nation. They don't want to be any, they don't want to be British. And then they scream for
Sharia law, which is what they left. But they want to reproduce it so that sometimes you have cultural
confusion when you let in groups of people and they don't bring that benefit to the home country.
They just want to now recreate the conditions of what they had before. It makes no sense to us,
(31:37):
but it's happening. Because we're not leaving and trying to recreate something. What is interesting
is I don't know if you saw a recent poll in Iran, they ran this, but even the national people of
Iran are more inclined to pursue a democratic government than they are their current way of
doing things. Correct. The average person. It's very interesting. Which is interesting. So you
have people who are in the country saying, I don't know about this. But then people who left for a
(32:02):
better life and say, no, bring it back. But they left for a better life because it baffles me.
So we have that nature of the Old Testament with this theocratic understanding of caring for the
alien sojourner. So then people may say, well, let's forget the Old Testament for a second.
Let's go to the New Testament where it's love your neighbor as yourself. That's an easier thing.
(32:24):
You know, that's just an easier thing for me to deal with. Well, I mean, the first issue we're
going to have there is, well, your neighbor is somebody who's already there. Right. Not somebody
who is an alien and a sojourner. Right. Correct. So already right off the bat, that's misapplied. Not
that you can't find a principle that can be the same when you're caring for somebody who's traveling
through, but that's not a direct one for one. Yeah. The other one in the Old Testament is actually
(32:48):
more clear than this one is in terms of loving your neighbor. There's a lot of people in your
community that you can love right now. That's the thing. Vulnerable people. You know, single moms,
widows, orphans, go down the list, people that need help. And that's our primary responsibility.
Amen. As believers, we should care. And it's not an issue of policy at that point. It's not an issue
of the local government saying we need to do these things. It's actually an issue for God's people to
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say we should be about caring for the widow and the orphan. That we do care for those in need.
And the church really should be that first line of care. It shouldn't be the state. It really should
be the church. And we need to weigh our responsibilities in our response to illegal
immigration so that we don't just say, well, we just hate, hate the idea of it and we hate those
(33:36):
who come across. It's like, ah, that's not the believers response. You can say, I think it's a
huge error of our government to not care for our own. You can confidently state that. But as a
believer, then you need to say, well, but if God has people in my community, people who are my
neighbor, then I should, how can I help? How can I love? How can I extend the generosity of Christ
(33:58):
to those who are here? I can still disagree with the policy. And then I can still say I'm responsible
for loving those who are in my community. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And we can call our government to do
what it should be doing, which is to provide safety and security for its citizens. Because again,
there are real, listen, I break, what breaks my heart is when I hear about a crime that was
(34:20):
committed by somebody that shouldn't have been here in the first place and a life was taken.
And is a very simple solution would have been a very simple solution.
That's if our government intentionally allow that person to come into our country,
turn a blind eye to it. And then a citizen's life was taken. That's borderline treasonous behavior
on the part of our government. It is betraying the people. Yeah. Yeah. So again, all these
(34:44):
downstream issues, right? That they come about. And so the whole, it's a racket. The whole thing
is a racket. People, bad people are making money on it. Bad people are allowing it. A percentage of
people coming in are bad people and they've come to take advantage of the system. By all measure,
we should be able to look at this and say, just pure common sense, biblical, yes, but common sense,
(35:08):
this is not working. This is not healthy, good, and it's creating more confusion and chaos.
Yeah. We definitely have more problems today. There's no question about it. You know, when I
think about this issue of immigration here in the US, there are a couple of things that I would
promote as people wrestle with it for their own personal, their own personal decision. So they're
(35:28):
thinking about policies and how they vote. And I would say that we, we, as a people, you mentioned
this, like we cannot support in the US everyone. Right. And I know this. I work for Children's
Hunger Fund. I get to travel around the world and see how great the needs are. They're so great.
And even where we're working as an organization, you know, we recently took some people and traveled
(35:52):
to Uganda and showed them and they said, this is still just a drop in the bucket here. I mean,
they recognized and they weren't discouraged. They just recognize how great, how great the needs are.
It's giant. It is so big. We can't even fathom how great the needs are. And you think about how God
actually then knows how great the needs are. He knows every human, every life, every need,
(36:14):
every person who dies of malnutrition every day, every person who dies from lack of clean water
every day, every person who dies from lack of medication, you name it. He knows all those
things. Every person who's taken advantage of and abused and he knows all of those things.
And we know a fraction of it and we're crushed. God sees all of it. So our work as humans,
(36:36):
kind of like we were talking about the climate, we're not going to be able to affect weather,
nor are we going to be able to affect the nature of poverty. Even Jesus said that poor will always
be with you. But he did say blessed are the poor in spirit, not blessed are the poor just period,
blessed are the poor in spirit who recognize their own need, their own depravity, their own nature of
(36:57):
nature of dependency upon God. And that's a grace, but then the poor practically will always be with
us. I think it's important for us to remember as Americans, we can't solve the issue of poverty.
And we can't use that either as a crutch to say we support any immigration because we just want to
meet the needs of all people. The second thing I would encourage is this, right out of second
(37:17):
Thessalonians three, and this is a principle that Paul used. He said, we were always willing to work.
We were always willing to work. And Paul's testimony was as a tent maker, he labored,
he paid for his own letters often and for his own travel. And it wasn't a burden to those who he
stated. Very remarkable testimony for position and time that he filled. But what he says, he gives
(37:40):
this command in second Thessalonians three verse 10, he says, if anyone's not willing to work,
neither let him eat. He says, we see the work is good and those willing to work and labor should
be treated especially well compared to the lazy and slothful busybodies. Essentially what he says.
That is a good principle. And I see that internationally when we're dealing with
(38:02):
very poor economies, that there's a difference between those who are unable to work, whether
that's through physical disability, a child who's eight years old is not going to be able to go and
to work. And so there's a nature of support and care for those unable, but then there's those who
are able and choose not to. There are those men who choose to get drunk every day, who choose to
(38:23):
to do things that they should not be doing and they're not willing to work. There's a very big
difference. And even our international pastors see that they see the distinction between those who
are unable versus those who are able, but unwilling. And so we should have that in our minds as we
think about immigration policies that we will promote the ones that we would vote for potentially,
we should pursue really a biblical mind about these things of encouraging those who are going
(38:48):
to contribute to the general welfare of society, those who are going to seek the good of their
neighbor as well and not just seek to take, but seek to give as well. Those are the things we
should think about when we're considering immigration policies. Agreed. Yeah. And as I said
earlier, we've got to just improve the legal process. Yet you feel so bad for people that
(39:08):
want to come to America and contribute. Legitimately. Yeah. Yeah. And they're skilled and they bring
something to the, that we would welcome. And they've, they've, they've gone to immense cost
and waited and waited to hear something. And it's just so slow or been told no, or been told no.
And meanwhile, you have people flying into Mexico or Honduras or whatever, and then walking across
(39:34):
the border and these poor people are like, what do I have to do? It's so we've got to improve that
process, make it more efficient. We've got to vet people. Well, we've got to vote for policies that
say we want to vet people and we want to bring in those who benefit our country, that want to be a
part of this, this place that we love and are going to come in and are going to be a contributing
(39:55):
factor. It doesn't matter. I don't care what color you are. I don't care. I don't care any of it.
If you want to come and be an American and, and you can still be from where you're from, that's
wonderful. But you, but you want to contribute here, you know, those are the people we want,
but you've got to make the process better. And then when somebody becomes a threat or,
or commits a crime, you it's, you're quick to deport because again, you're harming your
(40:19):
citizenry. The principles are so simple. Let's just get past the politics. Let their starting
nation now take care of them if they, but can I just say then one, like going back to the church
and this infiltration of things, if you hear a church leader frame this whole thing about
immigration with these cherry picked biblical phrases and they have not thought through any
(40:44):
of these things, challenge them on that. Ask the questions like, look, look, I want to respect you.
You're my pastor. You're an elder, whatever, but you're, you're using this phrase, love your
neighbor or welcome the stranger. Okay. Have you thought this all the way through? Well, I mean,
what, what exactly are you asking us to do here? Catch phrase Christianity is frustrating.
(41:09):
Ask hard questions. Where's this going? What are you really calling me to do as my church leader?
So just don't be naive to it. Yeah. That's a good encouragement. You know,
what's interesting about this whole debate, even of immigration policies, I have many friends who,
who are not born here, not born in the United States, born in other countries and they immigrated
(41:29):
legally and through an arduous process, very difficultly. And the funny thing is they,
they went through that and they would advocate for nothing different in terms of going a legitimate
route. They think that it's good, healthy and helpful that people would go through a process.
Now it is difficult and painful and it brought some pain. And so there are improvements that
(41:52):
we can make without question, but what they are not advocating for is an open border. Right.
Cause they know because they know the reality. Right. And that's the thing is that even, you know,
those people we talked about, the people that we would love to see come to the U S you know,
as, as citizens of the U S we would love to see people who come in, who want to contribute and
seek the welfare and the general prosperity of the people of the United States. Those people are not
(42:17):
the problem. Right. Those people are blessing and those people, as I'm mentioning, are my neighbors.
Those people are my coworkers. Those people I do work with by God's grace in various ways.
They're contributing, but there are also unintended consequences of having a very open border. Like
you're mentioning that does not lead to that eventuality. It doesn't lead to the eventuality
(42:40):
of everyone contributing to the good of the whole, but actually takes away resources for one,
limits the ability to care for our own people. Right. And then really makes things difficult
down the line to actually create opportunities for the poorest of the poor in our country. Right.
Because we're actually handing out money. I know. To those who are coming here with nothing. Yeah.
(43:02):
And so it's heartbreaking to see people come across with nothing. Yeah. But then we're looking at our
own people who are saying, I'm struggling to buy. Right. To put food on the table. Or to find a job.
But we're giving out a cash card, debit card to those who crossed over. That is very difficult.
Right. So if you're again, as a Christian leader, if you're saying, well, we want to bless these
strangers as they come in, but as we bless the stranger, are we doing injustice to the citizen?
(43:28):
Are we swapping out one for another? So is that really something that you want to promote?
And it's really not tenable at the end of the day. And this goes back through history. History
shows you care for your own first. And even in the New Testament, we care first for our own household,
escalation six. Right. Then we can care for others who are outside. That's right. And so this is a
(43:49):
consistent principle from God's word that it is not an evil thing to want a border. And so for
Christians who are listening to this, it is not evil to want to border. But let's make sure that
our desire for a border is not just self-serving. Right. That's true. That it's not just so that I
can benefit. Yes, our nation should benefit and we are part of that nation. But let's make sure
(44:10):
that the issue isn't just anger and vitriol, but recognizing that a border can be good and healthy
for people, for nations and people groups. And at the same time, while that is true,
we as individuals who respond to Jesus with faithfulness can love our neighbor. We can
care for the alien and the sojourner as we have opportunity to do so. And both of those can be
(44:34):
true at the same time. Amen. We can ask for a border that is secure and safe and that there's
a process towards citizenship. And as believers, we can care for others who may find themselves in
one of those difficult situations. There you go. That's a good bow you just tied on it.
If only our politicians could figure out a way to make a way through this. Yeah.
(44:57):
Okay. Well, there's so much that we could talk about along these lines. I know we could spend
hours discussing it. But one thing I would encourage listeners is as you're thinking
about these issues, whether it's this one immigration on this episode or the previous
episode, we talked about the nature of climate change and coming up, we're going to take on some
other hard hitting issues. As these come up, I would encourage you have good healthy conversations
(45:21):
with other believers. Ask some hard questions. Talk to your leaders, you know, us at Oak Hill,
all of our elders, we're saying our doors are open, come and talk to us about these things.
But I would encourage you wrestle with these things so you can be a light in the circles that
God has placed you in. Amen. That you would not be somebody who just is angry and turning others off
or you're just silent and not saying anything, but that you would actually bring light and hope and
(45:45):
truth. And even as you ask those questions, like Jeff says, I got questions, as you're that person
who says, I got questions, when somebody promotes a policy that may not be in alignment with God's
word, that you might ask questions that help other people think. Yes. And help them reason
through the issue as well in a way that is very non-confrontational because it doesn't need to be.
Right. It doesn't need to be a fight. We can hold our firm convictions and still encourage good
(46:08):
thinking with others. Yep. Be informed. So that's the encouragement. All right, friends. Well,
it's been good to be with you, Jeff. Thanks for your thoughts on immigration. I know you're holding
back. There's more that we could talk about. But we do pray this conversation has helped you
to renew your minds and reform your hearts. And we'll see you next time on The Thinking Trade.
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