Me Too & the Church

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to The Thinking Tree, a podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.

(00:04):
I'm Adam Sanchez. And I'm Jeff No.
And today we are discussing the Me Too and Church Too movements.
All right, Jeff, we're back with another tough subject.
This is a hard one. This one's not going to be easy today

(00:24):
on this episode. So friends, just prepare yourselves. We're just going to acknowledge
here on the front end. Some of what we talk about today may be, you may see as offensive,
you may see as difficult to hear, but here's what we're going to request. You hang in all
the way throughout the whole episode. And here's our prayer that we're going to be able to draw
close to the Lord and together on a very difficult issue. Amen.

(00:48):
And when you come to an emotional issue like this, it's easy to say, I already know what side I'm on.
I like, I've picked a side in this battle and then I'm going to make the other side the enemy.
And the best way to do this is to try to remove that emotion and say,
let me first look at it from every angle before I come to a conclusion. So that,
I think that's our advice on this. Amen. And that's what we're trying to do,

(01:09):
right? With the podcast in general, Thinking Tree. So with that in mind,
here's the question for today that we're going to try to answer.
How should Christians think about the Me Too and Church Too movements?
Now, I think before we even begin to dive into maybe application,
we got to understand what we're talking about here.
Yeah. And a lot of folks may not know.

(01:29):
So let's explain it. Okay.
Yeah, let's dig in. Sure. Well, the church too, in particular,
folks may not know what that means, but the Me Too movement is probably more well known because
it sort of took the world by storm, what, seven years ago.
Yeah. And basically it actually began a little bit before that. You were starting to hear that term
thrown around 2015, 16, and with the run ups to the election, people were talking about Donald Trump

(01:54):
and his past indiscretions and it started being brought up then, but it really took off in 2017.
And it took off as that, do you remember hashtags? Yeah.
I mean, I guess they're still around, but- They're still around, but used in a very
different way. Yeah. Back then it was a big deal as a hashtag. Me Too was a hashtag and it took off
online and it really centered around the allegations against Harvey Weinstein in Hollywood

(02:20):
and all the sexual harassment, the intimidation, the black male and sexual assault and rape.
And of course he's in prison now, which sounds like he was clearly guilty. But that's when this
really took off. And it's interesting, I actually did some research on this. There was a 2017 poll
done by ABC News that found back then that 54% of American women reported receiving unwanted and

(02:46):
inappropriate sexual advances at some point in their life. So more than half. And then 95% told
ABC News that they believe that men can just get away with it. So that was a lot of the energy
behind this. Remember the woman's march that then was launched and Me Too was sort of the
center of all that. The thing was then within, I would say probably a year or so, this was also

(03:11):
picked up and applied to church settings. And it won't surprise any of us to realize that the main
target was evangelicals. Have you noticed that? It's always the evangelicals because those who
trust in the word of God are going to be the biggest targets because we're the biggest threat.
So the idea was, is let's start pointing the finger away from politics and away from Hollywood

(03:36):
and start looking at patriarchy and misogyny in the church. And of course, the church is
sort of an easy target because in the way they view things, those behind this movement,
the church has a power structure that's led by men. So it's an easy target. We uphold male
headship, right? We talk about wives submitting to their own husbands, right? And then we have

(03:59):
women who are going to be going to their own husbands. And so in the eyes of those who want
to do damage to the kingdom, they're going to say, well, that opens up all kinds of doors to,
you know, forms of abuse. And so that was the big movement at this point, became known as church
too. And suddenly women were coming out of the woodwork and were claiming, well, I was intimidated,

(04:22):
I was bullied by people in church leadership. And then it was covered up and hidden by churches.
And, you know, church is now blaming the victims. So it got real messy, real fast. And what was true
and what wasn't true in this movement got really murky really fast, which I know we're going to
talk about both the reality of some of that and also the danger of it, the danger, the dangerous

(04:46):
and then there's also the weird adjacent thing of purity culture, which also came alongside this,
this idea that, well, in purity culture, the way it was expressed, what 15 years ago was, you know,
the girl is usually to blame, right? She's the one who's dressed inappropriate. She's not modest
enough. And therefore people were saying that purity culture had a role in this as well.

(05:10):
And then they pointed out, there were some obvious targets. Remember the Duggar family?
Mm-hmm. Well, there we go. See, this is it. There's, there was all kinds of, you know,
sexual abuse in that, in that family and it was covered up and hidden. The Bill
Gothard movement, all that stuff. So, so church too became a big deal. It's still going on today.
It's, it's died down a little bit. Now we have this church hurt till we have all these different

(05:30):
things happening. So that's the background. Yeah. Which I think is important for our listeners to
understand this movement, as you rightly noted, was something that began in secular culture,
but then was very hyper-focused and targeted on the church. And to be clear, we do recognize
we're in a sin-soaked world. We've said that so many times before. Now that doesn't mean we

(05:54):
excuse sin. That doesn't mean we make an allowance for it or that we say, well, you should just expect
to be sinned against, but also sin is going to be around us. And our preparation needs to be how to
respond when other people do sin. And even when we sin as well, as those who trust in the Lord.
And this is the wrestle match that we're in. We are in this wrestle match where as believers,

(06:18):
we recognize the world is broken. People do not do what they ought to do. They do what they ought
not to do. And as believers, we're very focused on addressing that uniquely, as you mentioned,
a population in the whole entire world that is uniquely focused on that. Yeah. And yet
uniquely targeted because of that as well. Yeah, for sure. And I'm glad you pointed that out because

(06:42):
there is no similar real movement, at least not in America, for struggles with Muslims.
Right. I'm just going to say that even though they have a patriarchal society as well. And
the issues even recently in India that we've seen happen and occur, that's been longstanding,
the levels of abuse there, not just a caste system dynamic, but the dynamic of men over women in

(07:06):
power. And just that has been all around the world. So many cultures I could just list,
but it's such a lightning rod here in the US and a very big target when it comes to the church.
And a lot of feelings that people have about that. It is a very emotional issue when we're dealing
with this. As you mentioned the poll, I think even if we were to poll women in our own church,

(07:31):
we might find some similar numbers of what women have experienced, whether in the workplace or
otherwise. I pray they don't experience those things in our church. I would pray that our
dynamic is very different, but that doesn't mean that it's perfect. That doesn't mean that
everything is always the best, though we strive for faithfulness. And I know our elders are not

(07:54):
pursuing these kinds of things, but the issue is charged because there are personal experiences.
And then there are friends who walked alongside or with others who went through experiences,
whether it was secular or in a sacred environment. And for us in the bubble, so to speak,

(08:15):
this is not in my notes, sorry, but I'm just thinking through what has happened in the last,
I've been down here a little over 15 years now, and watching how things have been navigated,
hearing the histories, whether it was one of the larger churches in our area or the university
that's in our area, how things have been handled. Not everything's been great. And with that,
I don't say that to blame everyone, but sin is messy. Sin is really messy and really difficult

(08:41):
to navigate. That doesn't excuse responding poorly, but I want the listener to consider
when we're dealing with issues of whether it's sexual abuse or sexual sin in nature.
So sometimes it can be an abuse dynamic, sometimes it can be the sex before marriage dynamic,
adultery, navigating those is immensely difficult. It is like a razor's edge when we're trying to

(09:07):
ask questions. We'll get into it in a little bit, but we're trying to ask questions about,
you mentioned, culpability, responsibility, and how do we gauge that? How do we navigate
finding out? Not because we're trying to have this purity culture mindset of just focus on blame,
but we're trying to understand. We're trying to think properly, and it's very difficult to do

(09:29):
in this dynamic. Because you'd want to uncover the truth always. And with human beings, like you said,
that's messy. And there's going to be half truths and partial truths and flat out lies and covering
up and protecting and attention grabbing. And there's all kinds of things, dynamics that can...
A person makes an accusation against another, both sides are now engaged in a tussle. And trying to

(09:53):
get to the bottom of that, it's not as simple as... People think from the outside, well, it clearly
was this. It probably wasn't clearly anything. It was probably very muddled. And so that's why we
have to be careful. I will say that the church too thing, at least for me as a pastor, if there's
anything good that came out of it, for me, it was, this put this on my radar more than it was on

(10:18):
before in the sense that you can become naive in ministry and just think, there's nobody doing...
Nobody's sinning in this way in my church, but it could happen. And suddenly it's on my radar,
and my little radar goes up and I think, oh, okay, I can't be naive. I need to keep my eyes open.
We're going to pay attention. Beer to the ground and be quick to jump in if there's any

(10:42):
hint of anything going on. Yeah, to be on guard. Now I want to go ahead and read this quote from
the book that we've been mentioning, The Shepherds for Sale. There's this quote,
and I think it's helpful to help continue our discussion on the topic. So let me go ahead and
read from the author. She says this, it should go without saying that any sexual assault or

(11:03):
molestation is an offense against God, and the church must not only condemn it, but take all
measures that accord with due process to bring the perpetrators to justice and prevent it from
recurring. We know from James 1.27, the scripture especially calls on Christians to care for the
vulnerable woman and children who are usually the targets of predators. We know from Psalm 72.13,

(11:24):
that the Lord has compassion for the weak and needy, and thus so should we. We also know that
because we live in a fallen world full of sinners, no human institution is entirely spared from the
full wages of fallen human nature, and that includes abuse. All church workers, but especially pastors,
must be held legally accountable and face church discipline for committing or covering up abuse.

(11:47):
Yet no institution long in existence is likely to have a perfect record of addressing the issue,
given that our ideas of what constitutes abuse have evolved over time. End quote. Yeah. Yeah.
So there's a whole bunch of really great stuff in there that we probably need to work through.
And, and listener, if, if you need to rewind and listen to that again, it's worth it because

(12:10):
there's some important things in there. So let's start at the top. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? Sinful
inclinations can be hidden in any population, in any institution, including the church. Like I just
said, we can't be naive to that. So we have to, we have to understand that. And any sexual assault,

(12:32):
harassment, intimidation is an offense against God first and foremost. Yeah. Right. And so we have
to take that very, very seriously. We can't let our guard down. This is by the way, why we're so
careful in our acorn ministry about getting background checks and making sure that eyes are
on at all times. And we have certain boundaries and dealing with babies. And so we're really

(12:53):
cautious about this because we're not naive about it. And why in our counseling ministry,
that we don't have men counsel women alone. Right. Exactly. That if there's any counseling
that needs to be done by a man, it's with another woman present, another ministry leader, preferably
his own wife to do that. We have those checks and balances set up across every ministry of the church.

(13:15):
But still something could happen. Yeah. The checks and balances doesn't ensure that sin doesn't
occur, but it's our due diligence. Correct. And it's part of even having our eyes aware of anything
that could happen. So if somebody wanted to go outside the norms of those boundaries, we would
have eyes. They'd be red flags. And say, okay, wait, we got to check into this. Right. And so,

(13:36):
and she's right, church leaders as shepherds, we have to be focused on the most vulnerable,
protecting our sheep, but especially those who are vulnerable to this type of thing.
And then if an accusation is made, man, this is the thing that's for me is probably the most
discouraging part of this movement. Because I heard stories of churches that they just did not

(14:01):
deal with it with wisdom and discernment. And it has to be taken seriously and investigations
have to be made. There has to be transparency so that there is never a door open for slander or
accusation that, oh, you guys are sweeping this under the carpet or you're protecting some man
in the church. And then, you know, people's minds run wild. Well, why are you protecting him? Is he

(14:24):
a big giver? I mean, you've heard all of these stories, right? And so you have to take it
seriously and you've got to be transparent about it. Make it on the up and up and communicate well
with your body, obviously with sensitivity, not sharing too much so that you don't fall into
gossip, but not sharing too little to where people start making up stories. Yeah. It's a very

(14:46):
interesting dynamic to walk through because we've heard the horror stories of in the, and I'm not
going to blame Baptist, but I've heard horror stories within the Baptist tradition. So I'm
not blaming Baptist, but within the tradition of, you know, touch not the Lord's anointed.
And that's been used so even predominantly in pop culture that there are movies that portray that

(15:08):
same line to, to portray the same thought there. The guy's untouchable. Right. And that's a very
dangerous position to have. And yet at the same time, as you mentioned, we should not bring a
charge willy nilly to, to an elder. And so there's, there's this dynamic we're trying to measure.
Uh, we have to take a, a serious threat or a serious concern seriously. Yes. If, if it warrants

(15:34):
such a investigation, then yes. And then you start discreetly because you're trying to understand
what's going on, but then there will probably come a time when that investigation may need to widen
due to the nature of what is being discussed. And it can no longer be just a discrete dynamic
because these things are not there. There are things that are done in secret, obviously,

(15:54):
if it is sin, uh, and assuming that there's a guilty nature here, that something's done in secret.
So it's not something that's done in public. So finding it out starts in secret, but it's probably
going to move public because that's the way that God works. God, God shows and shines light on the
darkness and it comes to light and it's very painful, but that process does need that. It's

(16:15):
like a deft hand. It's like a skilled surgeon. So you're not cutting away too much. You're not
cutting away too little. And to navigate that, like you mentioned, is very difficult. And a lot of
churches struggle greatly with that dynamic. I might even say that part of the struggle
is not just being able to say, to speak the truth in love. I do think that's one portion of it,

(16:36):
being able to speak the truth and love. Churches do struggle. And you know this from watching,
you know, church dynamics where they say, yeah, it's probably the right thing, but I don't know
if I could do that. You know, we know churches and people that struggle with that dynamic
because they'll know God's word, but they don't exactly know how to apply it.
So there's one struggle there. There's another struggle of doing hard things for the sake of

(16:58):
the Lord. And when we, when we're raised in a church dynamic, I think a lot of us who are
raised in the church dynamic, we have this thought of, well, I can't be overly critical. I can't
think the worst. I'm thinking the best. And yes, we're called to that. But we also need to have a
very easy, open door to talk about hard things. That is not something that I've seen the American

(17:21):
church or the church in general around the world be really good at. I think we have to strive for
that. I think we have to fight for that in our church communities to have the open door to talk
about difficult things and say, hey brother, this is not a comfortable conversation. But there was
an accusation that came forward and we need to start talking, walking through this and figure out
what was going on. And we need to navigate this, you know, starting there versus saying, Hey,

(17:46):
you know, there might've been somebody who's a little concerned, but I know your character
and testimony, so I'm not going to take it as, see, those are two very different ways to approach.
And it does require some wisdom and discernment to walk along that way. You need shepherds who
are willing to confront sin and, and to have hard conversations. And we have at Oak Hill, it's not
fun, but it's something we have to do at times. And because the, yeah, there are some horror

(18:09):
stories. I've read them where, where women were literally assaulted. There were a crime was
committed and yet the church decided because this person was, you know, well known, loved, whatever
decided we're going to handle it internally. We're not going to call the police. We're not
going to get anybody involved. It was a crime. It was a crime. And even the guy admitted it.

(18:30):
It was crime. What he did, he admitted it. It was a crime. They said, well, we're going to deal with
it with, you know, Matthew 18 and, and then, well, he repented of it. And the girl was like,
he assaulted me, you know? And so you can imagine how that girl's going to fall. She falls away from
that church and she feels those shepherds did not have my back. They did not protect me. And I don't

(18:55):
know if this guy's really repented or not, but the church has intentionally now covered this up and
let him go when he actually committed an assault. So those stories are out there. So, so churches
like ours, we have to remember, we have to remember, and she says it here, especially pastor
should be held legally accountable and face discipline. So, so there's, and there's, I think

(19:18):
she could have probably opened up some more on that. If the accusation is made and it turns out
that as you investigate it, well, this man showed poor judgment. Okay. And there was a misunderstanding
between him and her. Okay. That needs to be worked through in a biblical fashion. That can be handled
internally and it should be, and there should be repentance if it's necessary. There should be

(19:41):
reconciliation that can be handled internally, but if there's a crime, we don't hide crimes.
We don't. And so the authorities have to be involved if an actual crime is committed.
So it's a very difficult thing for, for elder teams to deal with, but we cannot shy away from
hard conversations and even hard steps if necessary. Yeah. Consequences of sin. And sin

(20:03):
always brings pain and sorrow. And when we teach this to our kids in our home, when,
when there, when there's disobedience to God, and it's not just disobedience to mom and dad,
but disobedience to God, that sin brings pain and sorrow never brings joy and gladness. And so that's
also the reality when we're in this arena as well. Now, while we were not approving of sin and abuse

(20:25):
of any kind, to be very clear for the listener, what we're talking about is that as Christians,
we need to wrestle with every situation for its whole. We can't be so overcome by an emotional
response or an allegiance to a person. Either way, right, could be an allegiance to a man or
a woman in that situation. But we shouldn't be so overcome by those things that we miss the

(20:48):
opportunity to really pursue the gospel in every arena of life. And the gospel is still applicable
even when a crime has been committed. The gospel doesn't go away. Even if there's a real tangible
law enforcement response to a person, the gospel is still applicable even in that.
And so even in that, like if there was a circumstance where somebody needed to,

(21:10):
to have such a recourse, have such a consequence, our goal as elders would be to help that person
see that that is still for their good. That the government does not oversee these things without
purpose, but with great purpose from God to restrain further evil and that they would receive
their consequence, whether they felt it was a measured response or not, but they would receive

(21:31):
it as it's intended to be received. That's right. So, I mean, that's part of seeing the gospel in
everything. Absolutely. Now with that, here's a difficulty. Not every situation, you kind of
mentioned this, not every situation is so cut and dry where you have a clear abuser and a clear
victim. Sometimes you do, but sometimes you don't. And so there's a sensitivity needed when we're

(21:55):
dealing with the accusations where we're not trying to blame the sufferer. We're not trying
to blame the one who has been, whether it's taken advantage of or feels like they've been taken,
however that dynamic ends up, we're not trying to blame them and to accuse them, but we're trying
to respond to the whole thing in a way that will please the Lord. And that is difficult.

(22:18):
Yeah. And you know, it's interesting is the dynamic has shifted since Me Too in the sense
that for a long time, the person who, the supposed perpetrator could probably get away with saying,
well, look, I'm, look at my record, you know, she's obviously the problem, right? Now with Me Too,

(22:39):
it's flip flopped. The person who's accused is usually now as in our world today, instantly
believed to be guilty. So that balance of power has sort of shifted because of the Me Too movement.
And we saw this in politics and even in Hollywood, people were now being outed for everything.
And Megan Basham in that book, that quote you read, she does talk about, she said,

(23:02):
abuse has evolved over time, the definition of what abuse is. And we were joking before we started
about how when I was in my mid twenties, I could go into the office and I could compliment a woman
on how she looks. I could literally say, you look great today. Today you're-
And there'd be no offense back then.

(23:23):
No, she'd smile and say, thank you. I mean, I just, you know, I just aged myself, but,
but you can't do that anymore. That is that in the minds of a sliver of the population,
that is sexual harassment. So that factors in as well.
So the lines have moved, is the reality.
Well, and there's obviously some other dangers as well, but that we should talk about.

(23:46):
So, yeah, I know we're going to get into the moving thing. So let's give an example,
I think, and then let's dig into some of these difficulties. So there's an example in the book
that she gives of this comedian. His name is John Crist. And some of you may have seen his work on,
I don't know, Instagram, TikTok, something like that, I think social media. But there were

(24:07):
questions in her book because as he was brought forward and he was part of the church too dynamic
as he's Christian comedian, these kinds of things, as he's brought forward, the situation,
the situation, so to speak, with multiple women came forward. One of the women who engaged with
him online with inappropriate messages was a married woman. And so the author here, a female

(24:34):
herself, said, now I'm not approving of any of his inappropriate messages and he needs to repent and
be right with the Lord and then with others as well. But also to that married woman,
her question, and she's not trying to accuse her to say, you're at fault for this, but to say,
what about you and your husband? What about that relationship? Because not only was that an online

(25:01):
dynamic where he didn't have a physical component of coercion and those kinds of things, but there
was a willingness on this woman's part to engage. And so when we're talking about some of these mixed
dynamics of previously the perpetrator would be absolved and innocent until proven guilty,
and now it's guilty and we'll see maybe in a couple years. That is kind of the dynamic today,

(25:25):
even if you question, then you're victim shaming. There's a whole thing with that.
We'll talk about some of those things. But within that dynamic, I thought it was a very important
question that she posed because that should be our disposition as believers where we're not instantly
saying what a terrible guy, though that is terrible. So yes, terrible guy. Don't do that.

(25:48):
But also for that married woman, please, please let's all look at that and say, though he's a
terrible guy, that was a terrible thing too. And there's a husband who probably is not going to
feel great about his wife engaging with this guy online. And there needs to be repentance there too.
And every situation is unique. And I thought that was a helpful situation that she brought to bear

(26:11):
because it was a very unique one, more unique in our day to day because online wasn't a thing
30 years ago, the way that it is today. But these are some of the things we're having to navigate,
where it's not a physical relationship, but there's this emotional and maybe visual relationship,
still sinful, but it's expressed very differently than some of the things in the past. So with that

(26:35):
setting the stage now, some of the nuanced difficulties, let's talk about some of the
difficulties with the Me Too and Church Too movement. Well, I mean, there is a growing
amount of people out there who have set their sights on bringing down pastors. And some of you

(26:55):
out there who are listening may know the name Julie Royce. She's a great example. She has an
absolute vendetta against John MacArthur and against Grace Community Church. And she...
Conservative Christians in general.
Yes, exactly. Self-proclaimed watchdog. I have a discernment site, etc., etc. And all she does is
attack people of Grace Community. So there are people who have said, this is a way to bring down

(27:19):
powerful pastors. And all it takes is an accusation. And this is how the Me Too movement went from
something that got everybody's attention. Like, you know what? There are terrible people out there
like Harvey Weinstein. But then it became now every man in power is suspect. And it just...
Like every movement, it just goes way too far and it crosses boundaries.

(27:42):
Swings a pendulum.
Yeah. There's this ever present danger now of over application. You find people who want attention.
Man, I can be a part of this movement. And you know what? I just have to...
If I can just find somebody who might say the wrong thing to me, then I become a victim. And
then I can cry out and be a part of this Me Too thing. And pretty soon... And again, I'm not

(28:04):
disparaging all accusations. I'm just saying this is a danger that in every movement, things now get
crazy. And you get crazy people who come out of the woodwork and they're looking for attention.
So that's why the search in this thing, it has to be for truth, not for a side. What is true? What
really happened? And what then do we need to do about that?

(28:25):
Yeah. In that, the sad part is when those motivations, when those really poor responses
are the ones that lead out, what it does is it delegitimizes when there really is a situation.
Exactly. Yep.
And so when there really is a serious concern, a real situation, it makes it a lot more difficult

(28:46):
to navigate because whether it is a situation like the one I just mentioned with this comedian and a
married woman, or whether it's something that's very disheartening, perhaps even with physical
force and something very, very difficult, in either of those, this becomes so much more muddy
when there's fierce emotions, when there's the lack of due process, when there's such a focus

(29:11):
on power dynamics, the oppressor and oppressed theology of liberation theology, when we're trying
to navigate culpability and understand what was each person's responsibility when we're expected
to only take the side of the accuser versus the accused. And all of that, it becomes so, so messy

(29:31):
to walk through. So it really does matter what we're aiming for. And I appreciate that you're
emphasizing the search for truth, the search to understand what is going on, what went on,
and how can we go God's way moving forward. And what's in the hearts of both of those people?
Because there's obviously a lot going on in that moment. Where did your heart lead you?

(29:51):
When you brought this accusation, what was going on in your heart? So we start to ask those biblical
counseling questions. We want to know what's the motivation here, what's going on, so that we can
get to the root of the issue and the truth. Yeah. The sad part, I think, in that is oftentimes,
there's such a lack of desire to do that. Right. There's a great fear of, you mentioned earlier,

(30:13):
the criminal due process. There's a great fear of legalities here in the US, specifically,
and even in our state. There's a great fear of mandatory reporting and all kinds of things,
whether we're dealing with children, whether we're dealing with adults. And there's a
misunderstanding of the purpose of law. And I would say that. I think there's a huge misunderstanding
the purpose of law, where churches will often think either it's one or the other. Either the

(30:35):
law handles it or we handle it. Right. And you kind of set that up earlier saying, yeah, some
people just take it that way, that they protect somebody, or they just hand it off. Right. Like,
I'm not going to do anything. Right. And there needs to be a partnership where the church doesn't
necessarily see the law as solving everything, but recognizes the law and the government
existing for a purpose. And when we do have reasonable laws that seek to restrict evil

(31:00):
and to promote good relationships, that's where we can leverage as a church our relationship with
law enforcement so that we can pursue a good end. Now, it doesn't mean it'll end perfectly.
It doesn't mean it'll end always the way that we want it to end. But we don't just say, oh,
because it's in this arena, whether we call it sexual assault or sexual abuse, therefore,

(31:21):
hands off, church uninvolved, and we're just going to hand this off to the authorities.
Right. And that is a danger when churches get so scared to deal with these issues that they just
hand everything off. Now there's no focus on restoration. We've also... Now you've abandoned
that sheep. Exactly. As a church leader. We don't abandon anybody in this process. But yes, legal

(31:41):
authorities may need to get involved, but yeah, we still love them. We still want to shepherd them,
for sure. Right. Right. Now you mentioned something interesting, and I wanted to highlight
it, because you talked about one of the dangers when people may hyper-focus on this issue and
really seek to gain notoriety, there could be some kind of selfish gain that can occur.

(32:01):
Oh, yeah. This is one of the things that she pointed out in the book, and I think it bears
mentioning because it involves Christian leaders. We might call it gaslighting or other kinds of
things has been called over the years, but basically it's this idea where you hit your
horse to the wagon of some major movement, and you make a name for yourself. Hey, see, I'm with

(32:23):
these people over here. I'm with the side of justice. I'm with the side of caring for women.
I'm with the side... And none of that's bad intrinsically. Does not God care about justice
in a perfect sense? Of course. Does not God care about women more than any of us could ever? I mean,
those things go without saying, but sometimes Christian leaders like to say, look at me,
and it's kind of peacocking. It's just fluffing up their feathers and saying, look who I'm about.

(32:48):
And one of those individuals that she pointed out that is noted for this was Russell Moore.
That's right. Russell Moore of the ERLC, which we've talked about him before, but here's the
situation. I think this is why we need to just mention this. The situation is that when he was
part of the SBC, so this was post 2018, it's around 2020 actually. When he was part of the SBC,

(33:09):
he was increasingly becoming disenfranchised among his own peers because the conservative leaders
were not a fan of a lot of his leftist leanings when it came to policies. And that was well noted.
Anyone who was paying attention could have seen that. But one of the things that he started doing
was really pivoting and pointing himself to kind of be this bastion of liberal thinking amidst the

(33:32):
conservative Southern Baptists. That's really where he was positioning himself. And at one point,
even wanted to spotlight the SBC's quote unquote abuse crisis. And he kind of co-opted
really a conference, if you will, in the early 2020s to this end and forced an extensive

(33:57):
investigation involving an old Olympian who had a lot of, there were just such tragic heartache in
the gymnastics world over this. I think it was Larry Nassar issue. And the whole thing was just
ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly. Within all of that though, here's why we're pointing out Russell Moore and
why the author did it as well, is that in the midst of it, Russell Moore was focused so much on

(34:23):
labeling an abuse crisis that wasn't actually the abuse crisis that he was proclaiming it to be.
He was blowing it out of proportion. He was making it seem like it was much larger than it was. And
so these are some of the numbers that I think it's important for listeners to know. Through that time,
because of highlighting it as an abuse crisis, there came about an extensive investigation.
The whole commission, it was a big deal.

(34:43):
It was a massive, massive investigation that covered 21 years of history with the Southern
Baptist Convention. So 21 years, so from 2001 to 2022, 21 years covered that. And in that time,
in that time, 409 abusers were identified, which is tragic. 409 cases of an individual abusing,

(35:10):
whether it was power or authority, and taking advantage of another person, whether it was a
woman, whether it was a child. And that's tragic that that would occur in even those circumstances.
To be clear, that occurred over the span of, again, 21 years and across 48,000 churches. So
these numbers are important, I think, for the listener to understand because in perspective,

(35:34):
Chicago, their public schools system employs 39,000 people. So 39,000. In 2022 alone, there were
there were 470 complaints from students about sexual abuse from staff. So in perspective here
then, 2022, there are 470 complaints across 39,000 employees in Chicago public schools alone.

(36:02):
Over 21 years, that was just in one year, in 21 years, across 48,000 churches, 409 abusers
have been identified across 21 years. Not to excuse any of that, but I think perspective matters.
Yeah. And so what that tells you is compared to the world, the church is a much, much safer place,

(36:23):
even though every one of those situations is tragic and awful, it's a much safer place.
And so, but Russell Moore blew this out of proportion because he felt like, as you said,
I'm going to jump on this bandwagon, this church two thing as a progressively, I'm going to become
a progressive hero to the left in society, become popular with feminists. And, you know,

(36:45):
behind all, even all of that was this idea back to the, I'm going to say it again, the winsome church
movement that Russell Moore is, is the king of this, this idea that we have to make, we have to
make the church more politically left leaning in order to grow our congregations in their mind,
in the minds of him and others. They're like, well, look, if, if we don't get out of the
conservative hole that we're in, churches are going to die, the kingdom's going to,

(37:10):
and ultimately doesn't trust that the Lord's going to sustain his church. We have to make this happen.
We have to become more politically left to attract the world to grow our congregations.
And it's such, so fundamentally flawed from a theological perspective. And it's just,
it's flat out gross. It is. And it's a shame, you know, the world, you mentioned the winsome

(37:31):
movement, the world does love him. The New Yorker, so when he announced his resignation,
which he did not submit to, to the board actually of the SBC, but he submitted publicly as a, as a,
as a really a promo letter, if anything. But what happened was the New York times and even the
Atlantic, these are completely secular sources had this to say, the New York times said that Moore is

(37:55):
a dissenter trying to save evangelicalism from itself. That's what the New York times had to
say about him. Completely secular outlet. This is, these are not believers at all. The Atlantic,
another completely secular news outlet said that Moore is fighting for the soul of the Southern
Baptist Convention. And this is all at that time. This is not, this is not at a different time.

(38:16):
Looking back, this was in the heat of the moment when he was labeling it an abuse crisis, when he
had just resigned, they're labeling him as this guy who's trying to save Christians from themselves.
And that's what he wanted. And he got that label. And this is the sad part. And I think why we need
to note this as a public, he's a public minister, public person. I don't necessarily want to call

(38:38):
minister, but a public person promoting that he's a believer and trying to help believers.
But in, in essence, he's done a lot of really unhelpful things. He'd in this, in this push for
the abuse crisis, he actually did not bring anything to light that had not been to light.
Right? Just to clarify. Not that it's bad for our, like you mentioned earlier, for us to have our

(39:01):
eyes open and to be reminded about the grievous nature of sin. So that, that we can still be
thankful for in God's providence that he'll use even something like this to that end. But he didn't
bring anything to light that was necessary, but he made a name for himself. He did make a name for
himself. And you know, those quotes even show the world thought well of him. Well, and he trashed
the SBC and by the way, SBC Southern Baptist Convention, in case you're wondering, he trashed

(39:26):
the reputation of the SBC in the eyes of the world. So you have these people that already were fired
up about church too, and we're looking for targets. And now they said, see, see the SBC is the biggest
denomination in America. We knew it was like this, blah, blah, blah. The results didn't matter to
them. They already had their talking point and Russell Moore served it to them on a platter.

(39:46):
That's what's so frustrating for guys like you and I, you know, we're out here, we're battling,
you know, Satan and all the forces of evil. And we're trying to lift up the name of Christ and
the reputation of the church and guys like this who claim to be brothers are working against us.
And boy, yeah, I try not to think about it too much. It'll drive me crazy.

(40:07):
Yeah. And at a very high level. Yeah. You know, among, yeah, he's got a much bigger platform than
me. Massive platform among, you know, major media. Now, none of that belittles or downplays
grievous cases of abuse. Those are horrendous. Right. But I think the main emphasis here that
the listener can take away is that these kinds of numbers show that that though abuse occurs,

(40:29):
it is not endemic. Right. Of either the SBC or even of Christendom at large. I agree. That doesn't
mean it doesn't happen. Right. But it's not endemic. When you look at those comparison of
numbers across 21 years, a lower ratio than across one year in the Chicago public schools,
I would say that is an endemic among the public schools. And why are we not investigating that?

(40:52):
Or why isn't that on the front page? Right. And it never will be. Right. Because it doesn't get
clicks. Correct. And that doesn't fit a government agenda. And government is absolutely involved in
media. There's no question about it. Yeah. That's another episode. So let's move to some solutions
then, at least in terms of how we can encourage Christians thinking about this, whether they're
thinking about Me Too movement or Church Too movement. Some just general encouragements here.

(41:18):
One of mine that, and we've kind of mentioned this multiple times tonight, but we'll be really
clear. One of mine would be listen and ask questions. Listen and ask questions. Don't start
with the posture like you just mentioned of saying, I already have my side figured out,
but start with the posture of asking questions. Sometimes with like a Julie Royce, that's the
issue, is that she hasn't really asked questions. She's come with an agenda. And then that's already

(41:40):
what's leading. And we shouldn't start there. We should start by asking questions and not being
dismissive, even if we think we might disagree with someone. So that's first principle. So don't
dismiss allegations, but don't affirm them instantly either. Right? Take a deep breath and say,
oh, okay, well, I want to get to the bottom of this before we start pointing fingers. It's not

(42:02):
good. With that to the Christian, I would also say like very tangentially to that, please avoid
gossip and slander. Yeah. Avoid gossip and slander. These things are very hard when they're public.
When they're public, it can be very easy to have these conversations about people.
But when you're speaking, there's a couple of general principles that'll guard you when it
comes to gossip and slander. First, gossip is speaking poorly about other people when they're

(42:27):
not present. And so that gossiping, if you're not speaking for the sake of exalting Christ,
then guard your speech. So bear that in mind, right? Christians, when we're speaking about others,
we can be disheartened by sin. We can be discouraged by sin, but let's not gossip about
others just for the sake of speaking about them. And then slander is speaking egregiously poor

(42:49):
about people behind their back. I don't think that we're often, even in our bubbles, as prone
to that, I think the gossip one is really more unnecessary where we don't need to be talking
about this, that, or the other. The recent issue with Steve Lawson, it was heartbreaking to hear,
but then the questions started coming out right away with who, who is it? And who is this woman?

(43:13):
And was it just one woman? Instantly, all those questions start coming. And even on a public
stage. And even though it was a public sin, it did not require all those public questions.
If there was an elder team that was walking through that, and of course, even legal ramifications
as well throughout all that. And there are multiple stages of organizations that are involved in that
due to the nature of his life. So those are some things that I would remind. Now, when it comes to

(43:39):
responsibility, here's another encouragement. Now, I even want to read a quote here with this dynamic.
We have to wrestle through those definitions of either a victim or a sinner or a sufferer.
When you mentioned earlier, you know, maybe years ago, the general culture was innocent till proven
guilty, don't blame. And then now it's, well, you can't even question somebody who brings an

(44:01):
accusation. Believe all women. Remember that? Do you remember that? That thing came up. It was
believe all women, which has got to be one. Even women were like, nope, nope. That's the...
But it's rough, right? Because we don't want to silence when there's a legitimate
issue that's going on that needs to be worked through. Even if there is some shared culpable
ability in that, we still want to walk through that, but it's not helpful just to say at, you

(44:25):
know, large carte blanche, yes, you know, whatever you say goes. So here's a quote though that's
from the book. Now this quote is from a friend of the authors and this friend of the author was
involved in a relationship with a pastor in a very heartbreaking situation. By God's grace,
this woman has since repented and come back to the Lord and even I believe with her husband as

(44:46):
well. And so we can praise God for all of that. But here's what this woman had to say when
this dynamic came up. And so here's the quote. When I asked my friend if she viewed this
pastor as an abuser, she hesitated. Well, I can say that he abused his authority because I
respected him. The first time he attempted to kiss me, I immediately left and I could have stayed

(45:08):
away, but I came back. I lingered. So I would say that in the beginning, he sexually harassed me,
but then it wasn't sexual harassment because I went back. Then it was consensual and then I left.
And the author continues. She similarly vacillated when I asked if she would identify as a victim.
She didn't like that word. Here's what she had to say. It's so easy to be the victim,

(45:32):
she sighed. It really absolves you of almost all of your part because you tell yourself,
I didn't make the first move. He did. And it makes us feel better about ourselves.
When the focus can be on this other person who is a bad guy, no doubt. And you're not saying that he
isn't a bad guy, but you do need to acknowledge your part so that you can accept God's forgiveness

(45:53):
because he will forgive. He has forgiven me. And when the adversary reminds me of it, I remember that.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. Because what I mentioned earlier about when there's two
sides in this, there's all kinds of motivations and things going on there. And obviously we want

(46:14):
to treat... Look, this is a pastor who went up and kissed her. That's atrocious. That man needs
to be out of ministry. He's disqualified. But then she went back. And so there was some...
As a biblical counselor, you want to dig into that. Well, tell me about why you went back. Tell me

(46:35):
why you lingered. Let's talk that through. Okay, good. So we know about him. He's disqualified.
And the church needs to deal with that. But let's talk about your repentance as well. And I know
that offense looks... And some women will say, how dare you? But that's the reality. There's never
100% sin and 0% sin or 100% pure. And it's always a mixed bag. So we own what we need to own.

(47:00):
And the consequences need to be there for anybody that is sinned. It's actually not that complicated,
but the emotions get in... This thing gets really heightened by emotions. And then we don't think
clearly. So I think there's some good encouragement in what we've just talked about, about listening

(47:21):
and really seeking to understand what's going on and then seeking to help everybody. And so
seeking to help everyone in the situation, not just one person, but seek to restore everyone.
And I would affirm the author's promotion in the beginning, care about the least. We care about

(47:42):
women and children, amen. There's a special care that we should have for those who are
less able to defend themselves. And this is even part of the biblical wisdom and ecclesiastes about
why two are better than one. And when you're going by the road, then you can be prepared in
case anyone comes to attack you. There's a grace in numbers. And so even in that, you can see so

(48:02):
many things could be helped or mitigated if people weren't alone. And that is something I would
encourage too, is the more things that you can do together, you're going to avoid a lot of difficulty
when you're not walking alone. That's just common sense. Right. It is. Yeah. When we're walking
alongside people who are suffering or people who even are sinning, earlier I mentioned, even if

(48:24):
there's a law enforcement response, we don't want to outsource strictly to secular trauma professionals.
And even that term, I don't love that term because it's not a, one, it's not a real term,
trauma professional. It doesn't mean that they're great at dealing with things. It just means that
they found a title. Now they could be helpful. They could be helpful in some way. I'm not going

(48:46):
to say that they're illegitimate as a person, but when it comes to what they're describing,
this is a very modern thing that's only come about in the last few years. This is not some
institution that has existed for hundreds of years. In fact, the first trauma professionals
were pastors. The very first ones. Makes sense. Yeah. If you want to go way back, way, way, way back,

(49:06):
it was elders, Jewish elders, were the first ones that care for people who were in the midst of
sinning and suffering. And those were priests as well. So when we think about the importance of
of mature, godly believers walking alongside, I can't overstate this enough. The church,
healthy churches must be involved in the lives of people, even when, especially when there's

(49:30):
sin or suffering taking place. I cannot overstate that enough, but to do that, then we need to
cultivate relationships all the time where we're speaking and doing things according to the Lord.
And it's just normal and expected that hard conversations aren't a shock, that there is a
normative rhythm to even talking about hard things. We're not shying away, but we're not trying to
force things unnecessarily when they're not needed, but that we're always ready to bring the truth

(49:54):
and love in all things, even if there's an allegation of abuse. Right. Yeah, that's great.
And I'll just, if I could say one more thing before we, because I know we got to wrap up here.
You know, thinking about through this issue at our church, which we love,
we want women at Oak Hill to feel safe and secure in the care of our shepherds. It is absolutely huge

(50:17):
to us. So that means a whole bunch of things. It means consistently speaking about the value of women
in the church, in local church ministry. It means for us as men, because we're men, right? We're men
of flesh and blood being careful with our words, being careful with our bodies, not putting
ourselves in compromising situations. And we do as a team, protecting the reputation of Christ,

(50:42):
protecting the reputation of the church, protecting our wives. That's all important. But also this,
not ignoring the women in our care. And this is a hard line for us as elders, right? Because
we have to shepherd both men and women in the church. So what we don't want to do is make the
women in our church feel like they inherently are a threat to us. And I know some women have expressed

(51:08):
that to me at other churches, because of the whole dynamic, which is, it's been heightened since me
too. It really has. Now, just by my presence, just because I'm female, I feel like I'm a threat to
them or they feel like I'm a threat to them. And it really messes up that relationship. It's not
fair to that woman. It's not loving to see her in that way. No, I want to, so I want to engage with

(51:31):
her. I want to care for her, but obviously with boundaries and it's a very fine line and
everything's gotten heightened. That's just the reality. But we just, we just, I just want to say
at Oak Hill, we just, we just value women and, and it's a privilege to be able to shepherd them.
Amen. Amen. I think that's a perfect note to end our episode on. So friends, thank you for sticking

(51:51):
through this tough, tough issue. Both of Jeff and I are available to continue talking in with our
wives as well. You know, to that end of what you're encouraging of walking with all the members of the
body, male and female for God's glory. So friends, we pray that this episode has helped you to renew
your minds and reform your hearts. And we'll catch you next time on the thinking tree.