Politicization of the Church

A podcast to help believers renew their minds and reform their hearts.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to The Thinking Tree, season four of podcast, how believers renew their minds

(00:04):
and reform their hearts. I'm Adam Sanchez. And I'm Jeff No.
And today we're discussing politics and the church.
All right, Jeff, we're back. We are back. Season four.
We are back. It's exciting. It is exciting. And what's great is we

(00:25):
don't have to worry about any, you know, agency needing to renew our contracts or anything like
that. Wait, are you getting paid for this? Oh, nevermind. There are other Bennys, right?
That's right. Well, we're excited to be back here. Very unique season here, actually, on
The Thinking Tree with a unique theme. You heard on the front end today we're talking about politics

(00:45):
and the church, a light subject. Yeah, some may say nothing, nothing too intense, but a needed one,
one that we've not been shy to address even in the predecessor to The Thinking Tree, which was
the underground, the underground. And that's on YouTube. Maybe we'll talk about it a little later.
But Jeff, I wanted to turn it over to you and to share with our listeners why we've chosen
that theme, not just of this episode, but really of this whole entire season.

(01:09):
Yeah, we're going to do a whole series here because we look at Oak Hill, the elders were
big on making sure that we are informing our church family about the things that
matter in the Christian life, but also in the larger world that we live in, the fallen world
that we live in. And obviously coming up in just a little over two months, we have a huge election.
And so we definitely want to equip folks to think well about their vote and about the issues and

(01:36):
the policies that are going to be discussed over the next couple of months. Now, the real impetus
for this series in particular was a book that we knew was coming out. In fact, I mentioned this
in a previous season, maybe a year ago, I said, hey, I know about this book that's coming out
by a woman named by the name of Megan Basham. And it's a book called Shepherds for Sale. And I said,

(02:00):
watch out for this book when it comes out. She is researching politics in the church.
And particularly she's doing research on leftist influences in the evangelical church
and how that might affect our votes and elections coming up. So you and I talked about it. The book
came out. We both grabbed a copy really fast and started ripping into it. It's a fascinating book.

(02:26):
It's well documented, but she does a great job laying out basically what's been going on for the
last five or six years within the evangelical church. So if you're out there listening to this
and you've thought to yourself, what's going on? Why are these influences seeping into discussions
about church life? Well, it's not by accident. So with knowing that, now look, these things

(02:50):
aren't present at Oak Hill because we're very careful as an elder team to make sure that we
don't allow those influences in as a protective measure. That's what good shepherds do. But you
probably hear about, you might hear about it on Twitter, in social media, all kinds of different
sources. And so we just want to get ahead of that and help you guys to understand what's going on

(03:12):
and why these things are happening. So this is, I think, really practical to deal with that issue,
but also then let's talk about some things that are coming up with the election.
Yeah. And so when we were thinking through this and talking through it, we discussed what if we do
the whole podcast themed around this? And what if we take on some of the bigger narratives,

(03:34):
the bigger concerns that the book raises, but that we also have seen in today's current events?
Yep. So we said, these are the big policies. These are the things that Christians need to
think through. These are the things that are dividing, not just Christians, but our nation.
These are the political party issues. And so the goal of this, Jeff is sharing, is not that

(03:55):
we're just advocating for one political way, but that we're encouraging listeners to think through
every policy. And I love that you noted that specifically because that's,
that we're going to keep coming back to that. What's the actual policy, not just the person.
Or the vibe. Exactly. That's the new one.
You heard just recently at the DNC, it's about the vibe. It's about, they kept saying joy. Isn't

(04:18):
that interesting? Co-opting a biblical word, joy, right? And saying, we're about the vibe and all
that, but very light on policy. So don't be fooled. Right. Be a thinking Christian who is going to
listen well, study well, research well, and even then measure against God's word. And so we're

(04:39):
going to try to help to do that during this season on various issues. We're going to talk about some
history for a number of issues. We're going to discuss the church and the nature of the state
or the government. This is all very focused in the United States, primarily because of the context
that we're living in, though there will be some implications for an understanding of global politics,

(05:01):
you know, global initiatives to some degree. But everything that we're going to be doing is going
to be coming back to God's word and to how Christians can and should respond. Again, to be
very clear, not to tell everyone vote this way or else, but to be very clear, what is the issue?
And how do we need to think about these things? Exactly. Where do our convictions come from?

(05:24):
And then to encourage godly responses and even help us to think, how can we respond to one another
when we disagree? When we're, I mean, the election is coming up in November and then what happens
right after that Thanksgiving and Christmas? And where are family members going to be?
Sitting around the same table together again with different opinions and different backgrounds and

(05:44):
different points of view. And what we want to encourage is for Christians, those who are
listening who are believers, to think through how they can respond in truth and love. And so all of
this is going to be saturated. You're going to hear this over and over and over again. So sometimes
it might sound like we're rambling and talking about the same thing, but it's because we probably
are. We're probably talking about the same thing and just a different package, but it's the same

(06:06):
themes of seeking to be Christ-like with our neighbors. So with all that being said, we're
still going to ask questions on the front end. That's the nature of the thinking tree. We ask
questions. So this episode, the main question we're going to seek to respond is this. Is the
American church being misguided when it comes to politics? That's a lightning rod question.

(06:27):
It is. And then the follow-up is, if so, how should Christians respond?
Yeah. And you have to remember elections are about campaigns and campaigns are about propaganda.
Yeah. So yes, you're being guided, misguided, and everything else. You're being directed by
every commercial, every ad you see on social media. You have to be discerning because they're

(06:50):
selling you something, both sides. Yes. So you have to be discerning. You can't just swallow
it or say, boy, that's a really cool ad. The images are great. I'm going to swallow that.
You've become a victim when you do that. Or you see something and you're like, oh, I like that
buzzword or that phrase. One of the biggest frustrations I have, and I know you and I've

(07:12):
already talked about this privately, but one of the biggest things that frustrates me about
American politics, especially you see this in debates, you have two candidates get up there.
And how do we judge the debate at the end of it? Well, this guy had better one-liners.
This person get this performed better. Right. Smiled more, was more. Right. We're not voting

(07:35):
for the best performer. We're voting for somebody who can lead a country and establish policy. We're
going to say that we're policy 300 times in this series. The right policies to get our country on
track. So yes, we are being guided and misguided in many ways. And so we've got to, we got to pay
close attention. And I think that's an interesting point you bring up because that, the guidance or

(07:57):
misguidance, the propaganda comes from without, meaning outside the church and the commercials
that we'll see, the pamphlets that get dropped off, the ads online, even the text and email
campaigns that keep pouring through, but it also can come from within. It can come from within,

(08:17):
whether that's even a church member who's maybe an activist or a professing believer in a church
who's an activist, some kind of political activist. And again, either side, or could even be a leader
who's advocating for political activism over biblical responses. Yep. It can come from the
pulpit. It can come from the pulpit. It can come from an elder team. It can come from a church

(08:38):
leader, a deacon, a ministry leader, so many different avenues. Even a Bible study could be
co-opted and used to a political aim. Talking about a Christian civil duty, for example,
could be co-opted where it may start with a really good premise, but then lead towards a really
nefarious end. And the goal isn't biblical truth. The goal is to push you in a certain direction,

(09:04):
to guide you. So again, you gotta be able to recognize when I'm being propagandized versus,
no, we're going towards biblical truth, and then I'm able to take the biblical data and make a
wise decision. Yeah. And that really is the litmus test, right? Because if you take God's Word
out of any issue, then you're being guided by what? Emotions, feelings about something, maybe a

(09:28):
personal story that connects with you or resonates with you in some way. But it's going to be something
other than God's revealed Word, which means it's something other than God's will. And so we're not
talking about being able to fight God's will in an ultimate way, and that's a theological
issue for another time. But talking about God's will is what is best. What is best for man and

(09:48):
how should we respond in a way that is righteous and pleasing to him? That's what we should be
learning. And listeners, if you need a reminder about what that looks like, Jeff just finished a
series, mini series within our Psalm series on Psalm 119. And I think those several sermons on
Psalm 119 talking about the primacy and the importance of God's Word in the life of the

(10:09):
believer would be a great foundation if anyone is listening and wondering, hey, how do I bring
God's Word to bear in my daily life? Yep. Go and listen to those on Psalm 119. They're in our
church sermon podcast as well as on YouTube as well. Now we want to talk about a little bit of
context, a little historical reality of the church being a political tool, the American church being

(10:35):
used as a political tool. And one of the points that the author of this book brings up is the
nature of Marxism. And so some of you listeners may be a little younger and you may only know
Marxism from the context of how it's being used today. But there was a context of understanding
Marxism and socialism that goes back to both Nazi Germany as well as Russia in the early 1940s,

(11:01):
really is probably where it peaked in terms of cultural awareness in our society. During that
time, there was a desire to see this socialist and Marxist really way of thinking and way of life
being promoted. And they knew that it was not going to come through the average person in America
who was enjoying capitalism and enjoying the nature of being able to be small business owners.

(11:25):
And yes, there were a lot of things going on in that day in the United States. This was not the
only issue of the day. There were other things that were going on. Some people may remember FDR.
Some people may remember pre-civil rights movement. There's a lot of things that are going on,
but this was one of those things as well in terms of Marxism being promoted. But one of the things
that the author brings up is how there was a very specific agenda that some Marxist leaders had

(11:51):
to infiltrate the church and to see the church as a very easily manipulated people group.
And the old saying, religion is the opiate of the masses. That's where people go to feel better
about themselves or get some kind of relief from the chaos of the world. So if you can get your

(12:12):
thinking into the church, then you can get an easy inroads and easy access to people who will just
follow for the sake of following. Yeah. Well, and yes, the history is that Christians being driven
by biblical principles are going to tend to vote as a block because they have that in common and
they're going to tend to vote for the party that best represents. Aligns with their beliefs.

(12:37):
Exactly. Exactly. So the opposition has always recognized that if they can put a dent in that
voting block, they can win elections and it doesn't take much. And so there has been a history of this
going back to the 1920s, between 1920 and 1950, the communist party in America was

(12:58):
doing this behind the scenes, was trying to push Marxist ideas into not always individual local
churches as much as Christian institutions. And that's why actually this author wrote this book
is she said, we've seen a resurgence in this. And again, because the history is there that

(13:20):
evangelicals today, and boy, I hate that term now. It doesn't mean the same thing that it used to.
We could do a whole thing on that, but because I don't even mention, I don't even say we're
evangelicals anymore. I just say we're a gospel center Bible church. That's it.
But that voting block is very powerful right now for the Republican party. And so the thought has

(13:42):
been for a long time, but it's been intensified in recent years that if we can water down just
a small percentage of that, and we've seen the margins of election victories now,
we can win more elections. The left believes this. So that's what's been happening. They've
been pushing progressive policies into Christian institutions. And in many cases, it has worked.

(14:06):
And so we now have, and I'll tell you another thing that they've done historically,
they have sought to create a generational divide. Meaning a person my age who has seen America in
the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, probably cannot be persuaded because I-

(14:26):
More set in your ways you've seen.
Not just that, but I've seen, I lived in a time, this is for our younger listeners.
I lived in a time when Republicans and Democrats were not that different.
Everybody was patriotic. Now we had differences of opinions on welfare and on economic policy,
sometimes foreign policy, but generally we were on the same page and we didn't hate each other. We

(14:50):
weren't at each other's throats. And so it was nice. I mean, America wasn't perfect, obviously,
but it was nice. And-
Yeah, there is a different vitriol these days between parties.
Yeah. So my kids' generation, they've never lived in that, which is sad to me.
But so the Marxists and the leftists are going to try to create a division. The older people

(15:13):
forget about it. We can't touch them, but the younger generation, we can reach them.
So you see a lot of their propaganda going in that direction. So they're going to use buzz phrases.
They're going to redefine words. They're going to take biblical texts and manipulate them
and try to woo that younger generation to say, oh, see your parents, your grandparents,
they were unfeeling, cold, awful people, not you, not you. Look at this, feel this, feel it. Right?

(15:41):
Yeah.
And I'm going to try to make them, just move them slightly to the left towards progressive
ideas in all these different policy areas. And it's working.
Yeah. It's interesting you talk about the voting block, because that is a very unique
thing that we have here in America. For one, having a pseudo legitimate democracy, and I'm not trying

(16:02):
to make fun of it.
It's another show.
Just the reality of, we do have a democratic process, but it's not as clear as just a popular
vote or-
No, right.
And so the realities of our elections, local and national, there's some nuance to it, even in terms
of electoral power when it comes to the presidential election, that is a unique thing compared to just

(16:27):
a popular vote that other nations have. And I'm not making a distinction of right or wrong, but
just the nature of us having a democracy is not, nothing's fully democratic. That's the nature of
things. So not knocking it. But with that comes a certain level of prestige for the citizens.
For citizens to be able to vote, to be activists, that's a unique thing. And so Christians here in

(16:51):
the US have that unique privilege that even generations before, let's take out other countries
out of this, but generation before just looks different for us today in terms of that privilege.
You go all the way back though to, let's talk about first century Rome, for example.
First century Rome, there's a pseudo-republicish kind of thing going on with Caesar, but at the

(17:18):
time Nero, right, is I guess towards the end of the first century. But Nero's become a famous guy.
The reason I mentioned this voting block, I think it's interesting. I know it's not in my notes, but
let me know your thoughts on this. The influence of Christians has always been big. The influence
of God's people even, even the Jews, has always been big. And getting the people's support has
always been an aim of anyone in political power, anyone in authority. That's been consistent

(17:44):
throughout history. Even in Jesus's day, Rome was so concerned about Judea. They were so concerned
about keeping the Jews in line and not causing an uprising and all that. But it's interesting that
you even look at the time of Nero. Nero's attempt to delegitimize the Christians in setting a fire,
setting a flame, the area next to his palace because he wanted to grow his palace. His whole purpose

(18:10):
was really to blame the Christians because he knew if people hated them that there would actually be
power in that because their influence was so strong. And he knew that he'd never be able to
get them to move because they actually care for their neighbors. They're actually loving others.
They're well thought of in the community. Not perfect, not perfect, but there's such an influence
that comes with being God's people. So it is interesting that even from the Marxist thinking,

(18:33):
there'd be such a push to get the Christians to be in alignment with their thinking. And that's
really what I think. There's a spiritual reality behind everything that we're seeing. I'm not
trying to make it a light and dark between a certain color of the political parties.
But when we talk about the nature of Marxist thinking, it truly is rooted in atheistic at best,

(18:58):
satanic at worst, influences. It's not rooted in any sense of God fearing or any sense of
worship that we would understand it. There's a very humanistic focus and a really abysmal end
to all of it, which is very striking. And so we see that God always cautions his people to be
careful. There's that caution, we know it in 2 Timothy 4, that people wanted to have their ears

(19:24):
tickled. That's context of the Bible, that's context of Christians, but I think that's people
too. And you were just mentioning, we love to see the propaganda that resonates with us or we feel
some kind of thing about it. We want to accumulate teachers or leaders that are in accordance with
the things that we want. It's people that struggle with certain sin issues. They want others to

(19:46):
promote those as normal. They want to normalize those and make it seem like it's not a big deal.
That way they don't have to feel so guilty. They don't have to feel so ashamed. And I do think
that's the nature of everyone, not just Christians. I think people want to have their ears tickled.
Yeah. And there's a lot of tickling going on.
Sounds awkward.
Well, and the funny part is, the enemy has always been, he's just devious. He's clever.

(20:14):
Yeah. And the wicked mentality of Marxism and leftism right now, and it really is, I mean,
it's not a stretch to start talking about strong communist socialist influences on the left right
now. You hear a lot of what we used to call blue dog Democrats saying, my party has left me. It is

(20:35):
so far left right now. It is looking at this almost Soviet-like utopia and wanting to push that onto
the American public, but the enemy is clever. And so everything's rebranded. So I know we'll get
into things like equity. You'll hear the word equity and you're like, that sounds fair. That
sounds nice. And you hear, there's a clip going around of Kamala Harris talking about pushing

(21:00):
towards equal outcomes for everyone. You're like, oh, that sounds nice. Fairness. This is great. Well,
we know what the cloak on that is behind that curtain is that is so dangerous. Yeah. Redistribution
of wealth, redistribution of wealth, right? And people don't realize that means everybody gets
poor. It's not everybody's rich. Everybody gets poor, but terms like equity and, you know, it's

(21:25):
rebranding and it sounds so nice. Even when we get to the, I know we're going to talk about climate
change, you know, and it becomes creation care. Oh, that sounds nice. That actually sounds biblical
creation care. Okay. I'm all for that. So that's the clever propaganda that's out there that we can
easily be misled and misguided on. Yeah. I like that you're emphasizing there is such a focus to

(21:49):
get Christians to, you know, it's kind of the look over here. Yeah. You know, don't look over there
behind the, you know, behind the, don't look at what the policy is actually prone. Just look over
here. Look at this nice way that we branded this term and this policy. Look at the nice commercial
that we made to elicit feelings and emotions. Yeah. That's the thing. Right. Look at the nice
smile of this candidate. Don't you want social justice? What's wrong with you? Of course. Yeah.

(22:14):
Only monsters, you know, wouldn't want it. Exactly. I heard a pastor in Africa recently, I was there
and he said, you know, who do you like? You know, who's your politician? I didn't answer him at
first. I was curious. I said, well, who do you like? And he says, well, you know, that Kamala
here, she has a nice smile. Interesting. How interesting. Here he is in Africa, which they are

(22:34):
in this particular country, very conservative politically in terms of their approach, but it
was the smile that he said, oh, the smile's there. And then we ended up talking about equity and that
changed his mind right quick, especially his wife when it came to that dynamic. And so that highlights
even the rational human response, not just an American response, rational human response to a

(22:57):
lot of these issues is fairly quick and logical. Yeah. But the branding, the co-opting of terms
and really trying to phrase everything and masquerade it to be something that's good,
takes our eyes off of, well, what is it actually? Right. You know, it's no longer abortion, it's
women's reproductive rights. Yeah. Right. Because the word abortion is so aggressive. Right. We're

(23:22):
going to tackle that one later this season as well. And then, and then they'll, you know, of course,
accuse you of hating women. We love women, right? But, but I mean, so this is the language, the games
that get played. And it really, if I can go here, it feeds into the mindset in so many church leaders
that are going to, are going to take some of this and let it trickle down to their congregations.

(23:46):
If you're not paying attention and, and some of it, if you want to go back and look at the source
of this, you can go back to the 1980s with the seeker sensitive movement. Yeah. This idea that,
okay. And, and I think, well, again, I'll go back to the book for a second. The author made a really
good point in her first introduction. She said, it could be that sometimes the church gets tired of
being the bad guy, which I think is an interesting observation. We get tired of being the people who

(24:11):
are pointed at and said, those are the, those are the prudes. Those are the, the people that always
say no. I mean, it's, it's obviously a caricature and a lie, but you know, you get people who are
church leaders who are like, I'm tired of being the bad guy. So what if, what if we just made our
church a little bit more seeker friendly? What if we were a little more cultural relevant? What if
we were less offensive with all of our talk about sin? What if we become more culturally familiar?

(24:37):
You know, so that we're not, we don't come off as right now. I feel like everybody thinks I'm
unloving, but I'm not, I'm loving. So, and what we ended up doing then is we just, we compromise.
And so we allow this stuff into the church, into our theology, into our preaching. It trickles down
the congregation and, and the devil is one. Yeah. Yeah. We tell people, however you want to live.

(24:59):
Yeah. You live however you want, but then there's, there's a bait and switch that happens. Yeah. So
then what, what happens if we say yes to everything? We're not going to have any opinion on, on these
matters, whether we're talking about abortion or the LGBTQ movement, all those things, right? Let's
just say we have no opinion. Now what happens when that person does have an encounter with the living

(25:21):
God who then transforms their heart and then they come into the church and now you have to help them
to live rightly. Well, and they, and if they, if they have their own copy of the Bible, they see,
it's going to be very obvious. They see these verses and they're like, wait, hold on a second.
Very obvious. And now what do you do? You spend this whole time just being welcoming. Yeah. And
ushering them towards death, really. Right. Not towards life. Right. But then they come alive,

(25:45):
God makes them alive. And then you have to help them to keep living. But what are you going to do?
Encourage them. It's kind of weird. It's like you would encourage somebody who let's, let's
hypothetically say they get rescued out of that lifestyle of LGBTQ. Okay. They get rescued and now
they've turned, you know, like a Rosaria butterfield. Right. And they turn and they say,
okay, now I want to follow Jesus and Jesus very clear in his word that this is not the way to go.

(26:06):
Now, how does the church then say, well, it's not that big of a deal. Can the church really say that
as somebody who's been redeemed and you know, such were some of you, but you're no longer that way.
Right. No, first Corinthians six. And yet now the church is advocating that they can just say,
it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. And what does that do to that individual who just got saved? And they're
trying to figure out how to walk faith. There are so many issues that we can raise with all of this,

(26:31):
but I think it's important that you hit on the reality of leaders. Yeah. There are leaders who,
who have not been leading well. This book does cast appalling names, names, a lot of names.
There are names that people know. We're going to talk about some of them, not just to,
to throw dirt on people, but some of them have real specific issues that they've supported.

(26:51):
Yeah. And ways that they have encouraged believers to respond more politically than biblically.
Right. And so when those things happen, they, they are publicly ministering and therefore they
can be publicly rebuked. Yeah. Without the context necessarily of relationship, not because we're
trying to just swing at people, but we, we need to be clear about what God's word says and,

(27:12):
and the things that God's word doesn't say. So there have been some who've used their teachings,
use their words in public with more than one soundbite. Yeah. Not just something taken out
of context, but even a habit. And some, even you see who they, what they support by who they
surround themselves with, who they hire, policies that they support, the issues they care about.

(27:34):
And this, this highlights Jesus's principle. You know them by their fruit. Now I know that's a very,
very fierce statement of, of believers or as unbelievers, but the principle is true really
in every sphere of life. Absolutely. You know somebody by what they do. That's why James was
so clear that you show faith with your works, that you don't just have faith and say, that's it.
But you show your faith with your works because what you really believe in, who you worship will

(27:56):
be seen in what you do. So we do, we can see that. If somebody's worshiping a policy more than the
savior, we can see that. And so there is a danger to, to these, to these leaders. And we're going
to have to talk about some of them. Yeah. Cause they have big platforms and they're influential.
And we are still even in the church driven by celebrity. So we will tend to swallow something

(28:18):
that if somebody popular says, or somebody with a big platform, because we just assume if they have
a big platform, then they must be, they must be trustworthy. Everything they say must be true.
Yeah. So let's talk about some principles of, of engaging politically. I know we said it was going
to be a shorter episode. I think we've gone and make it a normal size episode, but it's okay.
Cause these are good things, good things for us to engage on. But if we're talking about some of the,

(28:41):
the encouragements we would give that maybe the guard rails when we're thinking about how we
engage politically. These are things we've talked about a lot. You know, if you go back and you
listen on the underground years ago on YouTube, you'll hear us talk about during, you know,
the 2020 election cycle and things that were going on, you know, at that time. But I think
it's important that we continue to encourage these same things because American politics is part of

(29:06):
our life. Yeah. You can't avoid it. You can't, and Christians who play the ostrich and just put their
heads in the sand, it's, it's not helpful. It is a part of life. So we've got to respond to it in
some way. We've got to be informed. And we've got to do some research on our own. And we've got to
ask questions of other people that we trust because yeah, you can't just ignore it. It's not,

(29:30):
it's not healthy. It's not good. And I know we were talking earlier about this idea of separation of
church and state. You got to go back and realize that the reason behind that the founders put that
in was the idea that they didn't want the government to be in the church's business. Right.
But that doesn't mean that the church can't be out there in the public square and in the market

(29:52):
and, and putting our ideas out there and we need to influence our culture. Yeah. That is a
misunderstanding. It is. It is. The separation of church and state, I think the modern society
understands that wrongly understands that the church is not supposed to be an influence
for society. Somehow you just hold your belief and you have no encouragement towards that whatsoever

(30:17):
and just let government do what it wants to do. And by the way, church, you submit to whatever the
government tells you to do, even if the government tells you to do something contrary to God's work.
Right. Right. That's the common understanding today. Yes. And we saw that play out during COVID-19.
Right. And it was really devastating, but like you said, it was supposed to be the other way around.

(30:38):
It was supposed to be that the state is not supposed to influence the church, the church,
and those who are worshipers of God are to set their agenda by God himself. Right. Not by the
state. And that is a big issue for us today. And not only are we to put our ideas into the public
square, not just to win policy debates, but to point people back to God's word and say, this is

(31:04):
why we're advocating for this policy. It's because this aligns with God's heart for his people and
for the best outcomes for any nation. And sometimes we miss that piece as well. We think, well,
we just want to advocate for conservative ideas. Now I know oftentimes conservative ideas do line

(31:26):
up with what we believe, but it's more than that. It's pointing people back to God's word, back to
Christ to say, look, this is the best way that any nation can flourish is by lining up with what God
says. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. I mean, that principle we're going to hit over and over and over again,
whether we're talking about something like climate change or abortion or immigration,

(31:47):
we're going to be talking about that same principle of going God's way is going to
yield the best result. Right. Not that we're going to be perfect in doing it, not that it's
going to yield a perfect society or a utopian society, but that it is far better than going
against God's word, going against his ways. And so, I've encouraged this often with people that
your influence in society should be to encourage people to go towards Christ. Use your influence

(32:14):
at whatever sphere you're in. So at your job, you use your influence to push people towards Christ.
If you're voting, you use your influence to push people towards Christ. If you're in a conversation
with your family members, you should be pushing them towards Christ, like in everything that we
think and say and do to push people towards Christ. Because like you mentioned, we're caring more about
the soul of a person than we're caring about the policy that is promoted. Right. The policy can be

(32:39):
a benefit towards the end of caring for somebody's soul, and we can see ultimate good in pursuing
those things. But we have to keep our eyes on the main thing, whether the policy goes our way or not,
whether the election goes the way we want to or not. Our aim in engaging in this sphere is still
to push people towards Christ. So we need to be mindful of our witness even. Yeah. When we're

(33:01):
talking about policies, that's a huge issue. Right. Yeah. And making sure that as we're doing that,
our lives are matching our testimony for Christ. Right. Yep. Amen. There's a couple of other quick
encouragements I would give just because politics is such a fire rod. It's a really a lightning or
lightning rod. I don't know if I wrote it. A lightning rod. There's a lot of emotion involved

(33:26):
in politics. And so one encouragement I would give Christians is make sure that you are working to
avoid and limit your emotionally charged positions. So if you find yourself stuck, you're like,
ooh, I have a lot of feelings about this. That's probably not the policy that you should lead out
and talking to others about. That's probably the one where you should go and talk to another

(33:46):
mature believer who's going to help you think through the issue and back down to more reasonable
response. Because when we make it just about our emotional response, we're often not going to see
clearly. We're not going to see clearly to engage with the issue itself or the actual policy
that's promoted or the ramifications of that policy. We're going to be so focused on, but my

(34:09):
cousin or my friend who went through this. And it's less really about what's good for
people according to God's word and more about, well, I just would feel better if.
Yeah. Know your own heart. If you are too emotionally charged, back away. And also if
you engage with somebody and they come at you and you can tell instantly that this is a deeply
emotional thing, just be cautious, be careful. Truth matters, but Jesus was filled with both

(34:35):
grace and truth. So you want to get through with truth, but be careful in those conversations.
Be practically wise in the way you communicate with people. Understand that you got to love them
more than you want to win the debate. Yeah, that's key. That's key. You know,
and I would also probably then wrap up my thought with this and what I would encourage.
Ask a lot of questions when you're engaging with politics, ask questions to understand what is the

(34:58):
goal of the various policies that are being presented in front of you, who's promoting them
and not just by nature of who politically, like which individuals, which leaders are promoting
them, but even what political action committees or campaigns are promoting those policies.
Who's funding the aim? When you hear that certain policies are promoted regarding oil or regarding

(35:23):
climate change and these things, who stands to gain the most out of things? Always ask that question.
What's the potential impact that could be had with a policy that you may not see or that other
people may not see? Think through an issue of if we say no to this, what are we saying yes to?
Right. We say yes to this, what are we saying no to? Being a thinking person about these things

(35:45):
can be very, very helpful. Take every policy to its logical end. Yeah. So if somebody says,
well, yeah, we should all have electric cars because that would be good for the planet.
Okay, I've got like 10 follow up questions to that. How much are they going to cost? How effective are
they? How far can you drive? What about the electrical grid? How long are we going to have
to wait to charge? I mean, like you can't just go, well, emotionally, that feels really good.

(36:09):
Right. There's so many questions. Clean energy is not so clean. Right. What's the downstream effects
to this policy? It's like, it's the old thing. Like I'm just a really short story. When I was in
grade school, I ran for president of my sixth grade class. I'm sitting here with a presidential

(36:30):
nominee. I had no idea. Well, and I remember kids walking up and going, what are you going to promise?
And I remember somebody saying, you know, you should promise that when you turn the water fountain
on, Coke comes out, Coke, Coca-Cola comes out. And I was like, that's a great idea. I just promised
that everybody would vote for me. I can't actually do it. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Right. But

(36:54):
see, even in sixth grade, I learned kids will vote for me if I just promise something crazy,
because they want it. You know, they, it feeds my desire, that desire. But, but man, there's so many
questions. Like don't, don't just, don't be a sucker. Think carefully. Yeah. No, it's a good
encouragement. So, I mean, this season we're going to take on a lot of these issues. We've named some

(37:15):
of them already, and we'll talk about abortion. We'll talk about immigration. We're going to talk
about CRT. We're going to talk about the LGBTQ movement. Yeah. We're going to talk about many of
these things and more. But our big encouragement is not that you'd be fired up just by the issue
or the policy, but that you would be equipped more to think through this well, that you would even be

(37:35):
encouraged, even I pray during this conversation, that you've been encouraged that we've been
pointing you back to finding your identity in Christ, not in politics, not in a certain party,
not in a candidate, but in Christ. You're going to hear that over and over and over again. That's
why we are talking about the policies. Yes. So, so much to encourage that. So that's what I
encourage for you, Jeff. Any final encouragement for listeners? No, it's great. I mean, the

(37:59):
identity thing is a big deal. Am I most known as a Trumper? Am I most known as whatever it might be?
Is that how people stop it? Yeah. Just stop it. You're found in Christ. You should be known as a
person who is well-balanced, a person who is a thinker, a person who communicates in love.

(38:22):
I mean, there's all these things we should be known for. We shouldn't be known for being
that guy or that girl who that's all they talk about. So don't find your identity there. Be
found in Christ. Amen. Amen. Well, it should be an exciting season. Grateful to be engaging
during this time on these things. So listeners, we pray this conversation has helped you to renew

(38:43):
your minds and reform your hearts. And we'll see you next time on The Thinking Dream.