Into the Vortex: Portals, Phenomena & Black Ops with Thomas Ferrario

In this episode of The Trifecta with Katie Paige — the official podcast of Rocky Mountain Ranch Research — the boundaries between the known and the unknown start to dissolve. Katie is joined by Thomas Ferrario — longtime UFO and paranormal investigator, experiencer, and former research partner of the legendary Ted Phillips — for an eye-opening exploration into portal phenomena, government secrets, and decades of boots-on-the-ground research.

Thomas has been investigating since 1969 and served as both Assistant State Director and Treasurer for Missouri MUFON. He spent years investigating unexplained activity at the infamous Marley Woods site — a hotspot often compared to Skinwalker Ranch. He also assisted in the Tetra Mountain Moon Shaft Project and has published groundbreaking research into MJ-12 and intelligence-related disinformation. From black ops and shadow visitors to the false-flag UFO disclosure narrative and deep dives into the Men in Black phenomenon, Thomas shares insights rarely heard outside classified circles.

His professional background as a divemaster, machinist, electrical engineer, and financial analyst only adds depth to his analytical approach.

💡 Question Alert: In every episode, Katie asks three general questions about UFOs, paranormal, or cryptids. Answer all three correctly and unlock a free PDF gift for our dedicated listeners and viewers! Submit your answers here: rockymountainranchresearch.org/podcast. Good luck.

This episode pulls no punches. It questions authority, challenges assumptions, and dares to ask: What if the “paranormal” is the truth they don’t want you to see?
👉 Watch live, join the chat, and don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe:


Because where UFOs, paranormal & cryptids collide… we dig deeper.

✨ The Trifecta - Rocky Mountain Ranch’s Official Podcast is hosted by Katie Paige — where UFOs, paranormal, & cryptids collide.

Because where UFOs, paranormal & cryptids collide… we dig deeper.

📌 New episodes stream LIVE every Wednesday, 7–8 PM MST.
📺 Watch and listen here: www.RockyMountainRanchResearch.org/podcast

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hey, everybody, Welcome to the Trifecta Live. I'm so excited
for our guests tonight. We have none other than Thomas
Ferrario and we're gonna be talking about Marley Woods. But
before we get to that, just a little reminder that
throughout the show, I'm gonna ask three questions, and if

(00:38):
you get those three right, you can visit Rockymountain ranchresearch
dot org and answer the questions there, and I'll be
sending some PDFs out to you guys, So I hope
that you participate. It's just kind of my way of
saying thank you for being here. I also wanted to
thank Paul and Jim for their kind donations. It helped
me get a hot spot, and I was really hoping

(00:59):
fingers crossed it it would help with our glitches and
our videos tonight. But I can already see we're glitching
a little bit, so I might have to take even
further action. The starlink is just not getting the upspeeds
that I would like to run this smoothly here. It's
only with Streamy aer too, seems I don't have this
problem with other platforms, But we'll get it trained out,

(01:20):
so I hope you bear with me as we kind
of get these glitches ironed out. What other announcements do
I have? Oh, we now have a Patreon and of
course any helped you very great. I'll be very grateful
for that as it helps us kind of get these
glitches out of here. It's really frustrating for me to

(01:41):
see that this is happening again. We added a hot
spot and here we are. But anyway, let's just get
right to it. I'm so excited to have our guest,
Thomas Piario. He is here to talk about the infamous
Marley Woods out there in Missouri. I know he's great
friends with Debbie Zigelmeyer, who is a good friend of
mine too. We worked hard to with move on the
mutual UFO network and I can't wait to talk all

(02:04):
things high strangeness with Tom. So let's just bring him
on in here.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Hello, good to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Hi, Thomas, thank you so much. You do you like
to go by Thomas or Tom?

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Tom's fine, Okay, it's a great name.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
That is my dad's name. By the way, Thomas, he
was a Thomas, so he went by both as well.
I am so happy you are on the show. You know,
I like talking about the trifectain. Kind of where I
really want to start with you is so many of us,
especially within moufon, which is the Mutual UFO network. It's
kind of a nuts and bolt scientific organization. And I

(02:46):
know the scientific method is very important to you, and
it certainly was important to Ted Phillips as well. And
I know you mentored under Ted Phillips and I can't
wait to kind of learn more about Ted as well.
But I kind of want to talk about your process
on you know, the these high strangest locations Skinwalker Ranch,

(03:06):
Marley Woods, the the the Blind for a Branch, and
all these other hot spots of high stranges. You know,
you kind of have to get more into the realms
of paranormal and inter dimensional and it kind of moves
you away from the nuts and bolts. And I kind

(03:28):
of wanted to start out with kind of a background
on where you started with that and how you moved
from having to kind of open up your mind into
this high strangeness world that we all find ourselves in
with these high strangest locations.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, I'll be glad to my background comes. I live
in a very rural area and I had a background
that unlike yours. I had family members had experiences. I
had experiences, and over the years, in a small community,
you get to be to go to guy you know,
if they know, you're going to take them seriously and listen.

(04:04):
And of course ridicule is no part of the scientific
processes I learned from Ted Phillips. But I will tell
you that I've had so many people in my area,
a little small town of about a thousand people in
the beginning, and everybody came to me, and I at
one point thought on a Sunday morning, I should get

(04:24):
school on how to do it right. And I called
Walt Andris and never thinking I'd get through to Walt
and had a four hour conversation with him, and he
assigned me section director to move On and put me
in touch with Bruce Whiteman in Saint Louis, Missouri, the
first state director appointed state director for move On. And

(04:48):
I called Bruce and I said what Walt had done,
and he said, well, he said, the heck, you're a
state director. I don't even know you, and you're not
a member of Moufon. So he said, come visit me
and we'll talk. And we did that, and Bruce assigned
me to a very great gentleman named James Cross, which
was a Air Force captain, Korean War veteran, and I

(05:12):
learned the ropes working. He was a photo analyst. I
learned the ropes investigation how to do it the proper
way with Jim Cross. And then I went on years
later became friends with a mutual friend we have I
call him my sister, Debbie Zigelmeyer, and we farmed the
first mutual there you go, that's dev many years ago

(05:34):
and not so long ago, but we farmed a mutual
UFO dive team and taught, actually in Missouri, taught divers
to respond to cases if we had investigations in the water,
because two thirds of UFO cases in some way are
related to water. And we learned that. And deb went

(05:55):
on to do a very great book, Alien Cullen Is
of Earth Waterways, and it's I urge everybody to get
that book. It's a wonderful and the documentation and that
is great. But that's how I got into the mutual
UFO network, and through that, through Bruce Woodhaman, I got
to I often attended Ted Phillips lectures and Bruce had

(06:18):
him at Saint Louis and I talked to Bruce and
we got to be friends and Ted and uh Ted
offered me a position to help him with the electrical
At first, I was an electrician electrical engineer by trade,
and first couple of years I was putting up security
cameras running wires out in Marley Woods project. And but

(06:40):
that's how it all started with Ted.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, how how fantastic is that? You sound like an
amazing guy. Unfortunately we lost him, but from everything I
hear about him and his work, super credible and what
an honor to be able to be mentored by him.
And I have Debbie Zigelmeyer's book by the way, it's
right over here on myself. It's a beautiful book. I

(07:06):
highly recommend anybody go to Amazon and check it out.
And I agree. I mean Missouri as a whole. You
have a lot of water there. Can you talk a
little bit about some of the dives that you have
done and maybe some water encounters out there?

Speaker 2 (07:21):
You know, we never had much success in our dives.
We were scheduled so many times in the past, Debbie
and I were scheduled to do dives. And I'm not
speaking anything nefarious or anything happened to stop us. But
we were scheduled to do some dives back oh in

(07:41):
about i'd say two thousand and three four, we were
going to go to Shag Harbor. We had some dives
playing in Puerto Rico. There was a real active site
there and we had contact. We were working a little
bit with Heidi Hollis in that and but there always

(08:01):
seemed to be something in the really big cases where
we could have had some payback. It always looked like
somebody put their their hand in the in the pot
and put an end to it. So and there over
the years, as you probably are aware of, and Debbie
will tell you back up and in Missouri, we've had

(08:22):
a lot of interaction with let's just say, uh in
some cases personally myself with a D O D and
I've worked, We and Bruce Whithaman and I we worked
in some cases that we were lucky enough. In two
thousand and four, Bruce was contacted at that time. And

(08:43):
that's where I can get into the disclosure. But I
will say at this point, disclosures never going to happen
the way people think it is. Bruce and I, Bruce
was contacted by members in the d O D and
a guy that we knew, and it gets ex filushes
that you can imagine. But Bruce was offered a chant.

(09:04):
They were going to have a press conference. They chose
the first. Of course, mutual UFO network was started in Missouri,
so they chose Bruce, and Bruce asked me to accompany
him and members of the press and we were going
to go to Area fifty one. We went there that
same week. It was called off. Skip ahead about three

(09:26):
months we were promised a press conference and we actually
went to Quantico just like a movie. We sat at
the end of a long table for four hours waiting
for a press conference. Our handler, which was named was Red,
our government handler. He came out informed us that it
was off. And of course they did that to Rod Serling.

(09:47):
They did that to Walt Disney, several other instance producers
they've done that with. But we went through that process
and I will tell you that our intact with Red.
He did share a lot of things personally with us,
and I can speak about them now, which would it's

(10:08):
not what you think it is. Believe me. One of
the things he informed us was disclosure was not going
to happen the way you think it is. It's going
to happen through downloads from back engineering. And he said,
when you think of disclosure, that equals AI artificial intelligence,
So that gives you a hint in that and the

(10:30):
religious aspect of it, I had not ever. I wasn't
prepared for coming from the man that we were dealing with.
So it was it really took us by surprise. And
as the man we were in contact with, he told
us after we were disappointed, nothing occurred. And I've seen

(10:50):
it all my life, started in sixty nine as a
young boy, and I've seen disclosure promise so many times.
But it's not going to happen the way people think
it is going to happen. But it's It was just
we went around in circles with these people believe me,
and they like they explained to us. I read our

(11:12):
handler said. He said, well, Tom, it's like this. He said,
there's two parties in this disclosure. He said. The old
regime doesn't they don't feel they're going to force feed
us to anybody. They don't feel it's their duty and obligation.
They think there's enough information out there you can get
it on your own. And the young regime wants it

(11:33):
all out to the public. Unfortunately, the old regime signs
the paychecks, and that's just the way it is.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
So you sent me a very cryptic kind of message
from Bruce Witterman. Can I play that right now with
any luck? If this will play without glacing? But I
find it compelling and I think this is kind of
what you're speaking of, right, I mean, so let me
add this to the stage here, see if we can
get to play with any luck here. It's pretty short,

(12:02):
so hopefully we can get through it.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
To know.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Several things that will never ever be into the public.
But all right, get into the subject matter and you
can learn this stuff. H Town fer Ourgo. It's a
good friend of mine, and Ted hit a great, great help,

(12:36):
and I think he's going to do very well with.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
So he he is speaking there, and I tend to
agree with you. I can remember years ago, you know,
when Lou Alizondo first hit the stage and said we'd
be having a fundamentally different conversation a year from now.
It kind of hit me that he necessarily wasn't talking
about some bolts, craft or ets or UFOs, but the

(13:03):
fundamental of reality of itself and nature itself. Is that
kind of what you are kind of hinting to as
far as what disclosure may look like, as far as
AI is it just how we view reality itself? Is
that what you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah? You know the first thing I liked him. If
I leave anybody with anything, the one thing I'd like
to leave them with is that. And believe me, the
steps on the toes of a lot of ethologists. I've
lost a lot of close friends over this. But I
will tell you that coming from Ted Phillips, who worked

(13:45):
with Allen Heinek, a great, very great gentleman you may
have heard of. Race Stanford was good friends with me
and so many other Stanton Freeman was a good friend,
and they all came away. That's Ray Stanford there. Yeah,
he was so incredibly We just lost him shortly a
while back. And he wrote the Secordal Saucer in the

(14:10):
Pentagon Pantry. He ran Project Starlight for the government, the
first government's attempt to use laser targeting on cameras, and
had incredible success, but it was all hushed up. But
Ray was an incredible man. But the one thing all
these people I came away with was that they all

(14:31):
come to believe, and we proved it with Jacques Valley
there's another name. Thanks to Ted Phillips, I was exposed
to and became friends with, and Marley. He worked out
with us at Marley. And it doesn't get any better
than Jock Falla, believe me. And Douglas Trumbull was out there,
but Jock and everybody came away and they proved in

(14:52):
so many ways. He at Marley and at Skinwalker the
first we were working I can say it now. Robert
Bigelow came out, was working with us at Marley for
a sharp period, and Cone Keller. But I will tell
you that the one impression that they all know and
they proved was it's all interdimensional. It's not interplanetary. And

(15:16):
as you know, Von Braun the Rocket Sciences said the
last false flag will be the alien portrayal. And they're
not coming in. They're not aliens. Believe they're interdimensional beings
and the craft are interdimensional. And when I say that,
people say you don't believe in life on other planets,

(15:37):
I said, no, I absolutely do. But Stanton Freeman proved
it to me that because of the law of physics
that apply on our side, it's all interdimensional. We're never
going to have craft coming here from Alpha Centauri. You know,
even Ellen, Heinez said, it's more complex the little green

(15:58):
guys coming here from Alpha Centaur. But like Stan, and
believe me, he was a great man and physicist, and
like Stan told me, he said, he asked what I
was a star trek? I was a treckye and there Stan,
we spent so much time together and ted and Stan

(16:18):
was a wonderful man. But he asked me one day
what I he knew I loved star trek and I said, yeah,
I was a tricky and he asked me what I
thought about that? And I told Stan. I said, well,
we don't have a capability yet, but we will. And
Stan said, he said no, Tom, he said, we're not.
He said, he said, you do realize, He said, to

(16:39):
take the object the size of a pee to attain
light speed would take the combined energy output of the
Earth for a hundred years. Now do you think it's
practical We're going to have a starship. So I wasn't
going to argue with Stan, and I said no. But
they did teach me that when you go inter dimensional,
you have access to everything and anything, but you have

(17:03):
to be able to transgress that interdimensional boundary, and right
now we have limited capability of that with craft that
we're here and actually remains a craft that they reassembled
in a couple intact vessels that we have capability, but
unfortunately the elements to make a fleet of these craft,

(17:25):
there's three elements, one in particular is only on the
other side of the dimensional boundary. So that's why we
can't make a fleet of these things. And believe me,
when they're here, they're here, and when they're not. And
this goes into the paranormal cryptis, structured craft, light bulb activity,
and so much of what they're dealing with a Skinwalker. Now,

(17:48):
I will tell you it's what we dealt with in Marley,
and I was in touch with the producer. We were
going to do work on the first Skinwalker and that
didn't happen either. Again, it didn't work out, But they're
great people there, and I wish we would have had
the means in the machinery and the equipment they have.
Believe me, we could have done so much more, but

(18:10):
we were dated.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Right. So Tom, you talk about you know, and I
agree with you completely. I mean, through all my years
of research too, I'm led to almost the same conclusion
you have found yourself in that. You know, you talk
about it being frequency driven, and I would love for
you to just kind of give our audience a little
background on Marleywood. What kind of activities do you have there?

(18:34):
I know you mentioned cattle mutilations and the cryptids. What
types of cryptids and do you think they all kind
of I mean certainly frequency driven. It would explain a
lot of all that the UFOs, to the cryptids, to
the paranormal. So let's first kind of talk about that.
What types of cryptids are seen there at marley Woods

(18:57):
and types of craft and things like that.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, it it goes to full spectrum. We have structured craft,
we had light ball activity, and Ted always felt as
our technologies advanced that they covered their tail, they lowered
their risk factor by moving from the structured craft into
the light ball technology as their rov or they use

(19:23):
natural elements. In some cases we found they even used water,
which that sounds so strange, I know, but they used to.
And the light ball activity can go. It goes into
a science. The coloration of the light balls determines the
amount of energy that they expel and uh it always
we found the the blue and white seemed to be

(19:47):
the more benign. When you got into the yellow, orange,
and the red especially, you were dealing with a good
amount of energy. And they were the guys that were
the precursor to what we called the unseen f force
on Marley, and the unseen force knocked down gates, knockdown people,
injured people. And besides that activity, the unseen force, we

(20:13):
had cattle mutilation, horse mutilation. And I brought in a
very good friend of mine, which unfortunately we just lost.
I lost another friend, Christopher O'Brien. And I don't know
if you knew Chris or not, but he was he
was a great guy. Years ago I had a little

(20:34):
radio show on a little radio station out here, and
when Bruce would have him speak in Saint Louis, i'd
have him on my little radio show once a month
to mof on hour. And Chris actually stayed in my
house a couple of times. But Chris looked over our
Ted's documentation on the cattle mutilation and horse mutilation. It

(20:55):
was exactly what he had experienced in San Louis Valley,
and I see, I can but help notice behind you,
Snippy the Horse, he was involved with that and Linda
moulten House, so we had the experts, believe me at
the time out there, and it just unfortunately that it

(21:16):
never worked out to where we wanted a full time
presence out there, and we thought the Bigelow team would
give us that. But Ted virtually lived the rest of
his life out there, and he was so devoted to
the project because, as Ted said, all his life he
was chasing bread crumbs. But that was the first time
he actually started witnessing live himself and it impressed him

(21:41):
so much. But we had big foot sightings out there.
We had one of the biggest cryptis we had was
a and this sounds so strange, a four hundred pounds
plus polar bear slash sloth animal that we do have
two photographs of. They're very poor. It did leave physical

(22:02):
trace and when I that's the other thing I'd like
to impress with people is that when the cryptids come across,
they're inter dimensionally frequency driven. They when they're on this side,
they're as real as you and I. They lay down
physical trace, but when they're not here, they're not here.
And that includes bigfoot and they the cryptids have the

(22:25):
ability to go back and forth transgress the interdimensional boundary
where the craft structural craft. They have to use their
technology to do this. But we did have We found
sixteen inch white long hairs on the fence Barberire fence

(22:46):
where the one property owner had actually shot at this
animal claimed he had made it red. And we did
microscopy on this very crude in the day DNA work
and they came back with no known match. So there
you have physical trace. And I will tell you that
when we've had possible abduction one classic thirty foot disc

(23:12):
landing crop circles, saucer nest is what they used to
refer to as a crop circle when there was a
disc in conjunction with a disc circle put down, a
crop circle was a saucer nest was a terminology. And
Ted got on, it's about proper terminology. He believed me,

(23:33):
and and with his scientific background, we had to prove
everything two or three ways or we wouldn't speak about it.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
And I kind of stole this great little three minute
Ted Phillips video about his early work, and you actually
in that video it's really cool. You mentioned the snippy
over the shoulder and Chris O'Brien. Yes, I knew him.
He was a wonderful, wonderful guy and did a lot
of work out here in the San Luis. In fact,
he was going to help us with this project along

(24:02):
with Linda right before is passing. But he I want
to show this video, this three minute video, if we
can get through it to Ted Phillips. But I also
want to talk to you about Chris's book The Tricksters
and the Trickster Element out there at Marley Woods. So
first let's try and run this little video here. Hopefully
it'll play it, because I thought it was cool because
one of the images shows some of the trace of

(24:25):
evidence and the marks in the ground from the Snippy case.
There was so much more to that case. You know,
the aprofiles were just acquired by David Marler, so we
kind of reopened that back up, and there was so
much more to that than most people knew about, and
so much ties to the work that Ted Phillips did.
And you do yourself, and you know, I think my

(24:45):
big message to get out there to people, and I
think it's similar to you as well, Tom, is that
it's not too late to go back and look at
all these old historical cases because we know so much
more now and there's so many more connections that can
be made. So let's see if we can run this
little clip right here fingers crossed, fingers crossed.

Speaker 4 (25:23):
Ted Phillips of sid Dahlia, Missouri Senior examining a UFO
affected area is tecknowledged as the world expert.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
Unfortunately, I just need to get some better uplink. Ah,
so frustrating. This is show number four for me, and
every week we try to improve it, and we thought
we had it handled, but unfortunately, back to the drawing board.
I live up here behind Pike's Peak in the Rocky Mountains.
We have starlink and it does find, you know, downloading things.

(26:00):
It's just uploading, so unfortunately, but it's a great clip
which shows Ted Phillips really looking at trace evidence. He
looks at this the Cooro case what you mentioned, you
know Ray Stanford and the work he did out there,
and I guess Ted Phillips worked on that case as
well as that right with with Jay Allen Heinick.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yes, yeah, Ted was there with Jay Allen Heinich and
Ray Stanford was there. And I will tell you that
it's so fortunate that lonnie Za Morris was there when
he he did the wife's thing, and there was actually
a large they tried to do a cover up on that,

(26:44):
and had lonnie Zamorris, the patrolman that had found the craft.
Had he not called in the state police and had
those witnesses there and people and a friend of his
that was a sheriff's deputy, it would have probably got
covered up. But because of them it was investigated. It
got out and Ted did and Heinig did a good

(27:04):
and Ray Stanford did a great story on that, of course,
and there's actually some present work being done on that yet.
And it was so great that Ted took our team
out on one of our trips. We actually went out
to Secoro and he retraced his steps out there and
believe it or not, out there in the desert, which

(27:26):
of course there's things built up around it now that
weren't there when Ted was there, but he actually we
went and they had encircled the landing pad imprints in
the in the desert with a ring of rocks, and
Ted actually found we dug through a little brush and
Ted actually found the original circles of rock where the

(27:46):
indentations were so it was really great to be out
there with Ted and seeing it through his eyes. The
original you know, it didn't get any fresher than that
through Ted's eyes, but it was it was really great
to get there. And uh and we went to throm there,
we went with Stan, and we went to the Aztec
New Mexico crash site. We investigated that with Stan and

(28:09):
some other people. And but but I would tell you
that it was that was an incredible case that they covered.
And uh, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
I mean it's so in that video. I wish we
would have shown it. But you know, people say, well,
there's no evidence or proof to some of these UPO
landings or site when when really we have quite a bit.
I mean, even you know the more obscure, you know
cases out there in medicine, but Wyoming going through the

(28:42):
Doctor Leo Sprinkles, there are so many photographs of trace
evidence on the ground, and I know Ted really looked
into a lot of that, these circles on the ground,
things that are left at animal mutilations and that. So
you know, it's it's about time that researchers, investigators really
look at all of this ground trace evidence and start
really making catalogs of this, even from you know, decades back,

(29:04):
and I think that the work that these pioneers did
in the past is just invaluable and it's still very
relevant today. So it's interesting too you talk about gray
cryptids in this big, huge, what did you say, three
four hundred pounds white haired sloth type creature was actually

(29:26):
something that was reported out here at Rocky Mountain Ranch too.
They called them the white fuzzies, this gray hair and
it's so fascinating to me that you actually were able
to collect the hairs from the bob wire fence and
get it tested. There were reports of that and apro
out here as well, and it came back inconclusive. So
you know, we do have these types of reports, and

(29:46):
it's so important that people are aware of this. Do
you believe I mean, obviously, you know, I think you're
spot on. These These cryptids will come out or come
up or materialize out of whatever realm or portal if
you want to call them that, and they can leave
trace evidence and then they disappear. But they also have
this trickster element or the phenomena. Does can you kind

(30:08):
of talk about, Adam maybe some of the trickster things
that happened out there in Marley Woods.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, you know the Native Americans, and it's the Old
Sage Indians that were the tribe along near Marley Woods
and on Marley Woods at the time. And unfortunately there's
no Native American you know, indigenous people there now, so
we didn't have any way. Ted tried and tried to

(30:36):
get any kind of records to them on the property.
We couldn't find any. We did find artifacts in the
later years where they did have encampments at Marley so
they did have a presence we know, on there, and
but the Native Americans refer to them as the tricksters.
And because of what they did and the ghost of

(30:57):
the woods, if they wanted to be seen, they would
be seen. If they didn't want to be seen, you're
not going to find them. You could go through a
forest with hand to hand with a thousand men and
they're not there. Now, that doesn't mean they're not there.
They go they can. We truly approve that when you're
on the other side the inner dimensional boundary, they can

(31:17):
still see what's here. And that's one thing, you know,
I'd like people to come away with also that so
many times in the paranormal and even a skinwalker in
the early days, they wanted to know why none of
their experiments would turn out the way they did, or
why they couldn't get ahead of these the intelligence out there,
and they're having that problem to this day. Well, what

(31:39):
we had come to find out was that the reason
they're always ahead of you is because they're always observing you.
They're always there observing you. They know exactly what your
plans are, what you're doing, and you can't sense them.
You have no idea they're there. So you can't get
ahead of something there that's monitoring you. And and you

(32:01):
know the tricksters is. And we caught proof of this
in so many ways out there, and even Bigelow's team
we performed some similar experiments and more here again the
paranormal type.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
But uh And it gets into like when Jock Lay
and Douglas Trumbull was out at Marley and Douglas had
built a piece of camera equipment that was very expensive
at the time. There's other cameras that do the work now,
but back then this piece of equipment was self operated
at UH motion detection and UH infrared and it would

(32:39):
it would hone in on objects and identify it. But
it was in a rain one night, and Douglas didn't
want to put this out in the weather right away.
So there's an old cabin at Marley. He decided we
were going to lock it in, so that night we
all went in there. We locked. Jock Vla was with us.
We locked it at the front northern window on a
very tribe pod that probably weighed sixty five pounds in

(33:02):
the camera, probably weighed another forty five to fifty pounds. Yeah,
locked the tripod. The property owner locked the door to
the cabin and we went back where we stayed in
the newer building they built for Ted his research. And
the next morning we started in. Of course Douglas, what's

(33:22):
the first one to go in? And we hear Douglas.
I can't use the language he used that night that morning,
but he goes in, and of course just Jock asked,
he said, what's the matter Douglas, And he said, somebody
is screwing with me here in here who was in
this room? And the property owner had the only key

(33:43):
and he went home and we were there. We didn't
have to even have a key to that cabin, but anyway,
the camera which was at the window locked down, was
turned thirty five degrees away from the window into the cabin.
Now we have so much poltry ice type activity in
that cabin, which I know you know about personally, that

(34:04):
sort of thing, and you can't explain it. And one
experiment we did that Bigelow recreate it. And this sounds
boring in mondanas heck, but they did. They took normal
common objects on the tabletop where this activity would happen.
Put high speed cameras on a tabletop with just common

(34:26):
thing like a deck of plane cards, cigarette lighter and
that sort of thing, car keys, and had three high
speed cameras which could well catch a fastest projectile bullet
in flight to the degree you could do microscopy on
the photo of the bullet. That's how well these cameras

(34:46):
could slow this and take the image. Put this on
the tabletop. In the morning, they'd come in, The keys
would all be in a different all the objects would
be in different locations. The camera would catch the objects
in their set new position, but would never catch the
objects in motion. Now, the better minds in mind had

(35:09):
proved mathematically that the only way this could take place,
and this comes in the realm of paranormal so well,
these objects had to go inter dimensional and reattain this position,
go inter dimensional, come back in that position, and be
found in that locality. So that was just one of

(35:29):
the ways they proved that this was interdimensionally done. And
we have so many other instances of that, you know,
like you mentioned the tricksters. We had one morning there
was light snow, light freeze. The property owner goes on
in one of his ponds where they watered cattle. There
was a light ice on it snow. He sees thirteen

(35:51):
inch three toed tracks, which I know that probably rings
the bell with you. But an object of considerable mass,
you know, to have a footprint de size going out
into the pond on the light snow, terminating in the
center of the pond, ending and the property owner wanted

(36:11):
to examine this and he stepped on the edge of
the ice. He broke through to his knee. Now we
do believe this thing, whatever it was, was in the
state of transition going inter dimensionally. That's why I think
could explain this to have that much mass and weight.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, he didn't break through to the ice, it was
just the prince.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, yeah, the property owner did. And uh but you know,
the creature, whatever it was, got out and determining the
tracks were laid down one directional, it was starting to
cross the pond and terminate it ended in the middle
of the pond. So that's crazy. How do you explain that?

Speaker 1 (36:52):
You know, you really can't explain that. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
But we had so much of them.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah, Tom, do you have any theories on why the
tricksters like to mess with us in this way? I
mean taking keys and hiding things, and I mean we
hear this all the time, We see it recommended, and
we see it at skinlocker, we see it all these locations.
Are they just getting their cakes? I mean, what are
your theories about that?

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Well?

Speaker 1 (37:19):
What's going on there?

Speaker 2 (37:21):
That drove Ted crazy because he tried to come up
with a some line of thought they could explain this,
and you know, it got back to one. You know,
it wasn't a form of communication. He never really thought
that to be the case, because they could have communicated
so many other easier ways. And when you get into

(37:44):
the harsh mutilation and the cattle mutilation and even deer
mutilations we had in Marley, Ted came away with one
thing that it generated great amounts of fear, and then
we truly believe they use fear as a tool, whether
they feed on it or they use it for a
tool to manipulate people. And believe me, some of the

(38:06):
extreme cases, like our horse mutilation out there, the amount
of fear generated in that area was tremendous and it
did manipulate people, believe me. But so and for what
purpose other than that could it be? You know, would
it be done? So that's such an interesting theory.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
I've never thought of it that way. I always thought, oh,
maybe they're just getting a good laugh or having fun,
or you know, you think of trickster jokester gesture all that.
But you're right, if they feed off our fear and
they're truly trying to make us afraid, obviously the mutilations
do that. Can you tell our listeners? I know it's
a little graphic, so warning ahead of time. This horse

(38:49):
mutilation that you are speaking of is pretty graphic and
different than anything I've really heard before. Can you kind
of walk us through what happened there and what evidence
was left behind there, because it's pretty pretty brutal.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
I like to always warn people at that point. It's
pretty graphic, but I'll give a encapsulated as briefly as
I can, but basically, the property owner on site too,
came down from his home, walked by his horse barn.
He had his favorite horse into one stall. He used
to feed it some sugar in the morning. He went in,
fed at sugar, closed the gate. Everything was fine. He

(39:27):
had a habit he run the fence line, check the
fence line. The whole time this occurred. He was within
earshot in eyesight of this, and you're speaking about maybe
fifteen twenty five minutes at the most. As he came
back past the barn, he noticed the gate was a jar,
and when he walked over to the barn, he instantly

(39:48):
knew that he couldn't believe his eyes. He described it
as a slaughterhouse. And the man had owned actually a
meat processing plant too, in a dairy, so he knew
what that was like. But he said it was worse
than a slaughterhouse. He said there were pieces of horse
flesh chunks on the rafters, on the fence, on the gate,

(40:11):
on the walls. There was blood all over and it
just looked like this horse had exploded and Ted had
come across this, believe it or not. He'd come across
this occurrence before, and in one instance it was out
of the United States. He did, and that's another story.
But Ted always said it looked like this horse had

(40:32):
been put in a microwave oven and just exploded. We
got out there again, we didn't have a permanent presence.
We got out there about three weeks I believe it
was later. We did soil analysis, we took samples. Unfortunately,
the farmer had taken the big remains of his horse

(40:52):
with a neighbor and burned it, which I understand. We
did get some flesh, some samples, blood samples. Sent him
in the was Buttinger, which was Ted's go to laboratory gal.
It was great. She was a great aid to Ted
through the years and came back no explosives, nothing out
of the ordinary, no chemical traces of anything. So the

(41:18):
only thing they can imagine this did and Ted said,
I know it has a signature of microwave radiation. And
we did experience that out there ourselves at times in
another phenomena called the light beam, which it injured ranchers.
It injured Ted and I and I still live with
so of the effects of an injury from that to

(41:39):
this day. So we do believe as they're finding out
and they believe in Skinwalker. Now the microwave element of
this is the bad guy, that's what does the damage.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
So yeah, I think definitely you and others are onto
something there with the microwaves. And can you talk about
with what this light beam was and what you observed
it doing.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, there was a through the years out there, it
wasn't uncommon at times for the ranchers to see a
brilliant white light beam come down from the sky. And
here again it sounds strange. I know, no structured craft,
nothing in the air, but just this lightbeam would come

(42:25):
down and hit the timber, go across the timber, back
and forth, hunting in the fields like it was searching
for something. And in one case Adam Johnson and myself
which Adam was one of Ted's team members. He evolved
into a very great producer. He's done work for Sci
Fi Channel and other things. Adam and I were in

(42:48):
a deer stand one night monitoring the field which had
another phenomena out there called the twinkle lights, which lit
up the field at night, and we were trying to
get photography that and it was like twenty degrees and
we were up there for like four hours, and believe me,
when you're out there long in that cold, it gets

(43:09):
to you. And we decided to pick up shop, close
up shop, and unfortunately, we put our cameras up and
I noticed coming out of the southwest a beam of
light hitting the tree tops and Adam was just trying
to get his numb, trying to get the cameras back
out to film this, and it came across the seven

(43:33):
acre field, came down and hit the field, came across
the field right to the bottom where our deer stand was,
and just as it got to the bottom of our
deer stand, it is extinguished. It was out, it was gone.
And we were in radio communication with Ted and he
was close proximity. He should have seen that he didn't.

(43:55):
And then through the years other ranchers have had this
action on them. And then the bad case was when
Ted and I were coming home one night about three
in the morning. And as people in this business know,
and twelve AM's not to be witching.

Speaker 4 (44:12):
Now.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Usually three am is when things start, I'll tell you.
And we were coming back in my vehicle on a
dirt road, off a gravel road, off a paved road,
all lock fenced in area and nothing could get in there,
nothing out. And we were driving back to Psyche two
and I noticed in my rearview mirror a light coming

(44:34):
up behind us, and I knew there couldn't be a vehicle.
And just as I was watching, it overtook our vehicle.
Just like I hate to Dora all the analogy to
close encounters, but that's what it was. It came down
on our vehicle. We could see the dashboard events in
my car like never before, and Ted and I did it, reacted,

(44:58):
probably unwisely. We both jumped out of the vehicle, looked
up and in the light and we seen the light
as Ted described it retracting. And I know a little
bit about lighting, and I don't know how you could
recreate this, and even some of the people with UFO
Witness their tech guys couldn't duplicate this. But it retracted.

(45:21):
You could see a definite cutoff end of the light
and it retracted into like an old camera twisting reflex
motion into the sky and then it was gone. We
see no craft, nothing, and we drove back to our
Ted's office where we stayed. Ted got out. He actually

(45:44):
got sick, he vomited. I felt fine that night. We
were there another couple of days and we went back home,
and uh I started having scout problems. I went to
my local world doctor and he thought it was shingles.
It wasn't. He tested. He just said, you got some
kind of a burn on your head and actually gave

(46:04):
me opiates for pain. It hurts so bad. I couldn't
even touch my hair. And then later I developed assist
in my eye and then I had, you know, cataracts removed,
and it was touch and go with keeping my vision
in one eye, but they, luckily they restored it. And

(46:28):
then also it's a byproduct of that, and I have
documented proof of this. I have photos before and after.
My hair at that time was dark brown, and within
a couple of months it went to white, to blondage
to what it is today. So, I mean, that's something.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
A lot of people don't want to talk about. I mean,
maybe because of liability issues and that, but these ill
health effects, and we certainly found evidence of that out
there in the San Luis Valley as well, people going blinded,
losing their vision. So This is not the first time
I've heard this happen. Even with the burning of the

(47:05):
scalp and you know the radiation burns, it sounds like
that could be possibly what happened to you, Tom. I mean,
that's that's scary. Even on the Rocky Mountain ranch, we're
getting some ill health effects and it's just a side effect.
Do you think that is radiation? Is it something else?
Is that microwaves? Can microwaves hurt you in that kind

(47:25):
of way.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
Or instantly, And I'm so thankful I had When I
had my macular sists removed, which is about three times
harder to do than cataracts, you got an extremely good outcome,
or you can lose vision. And he did a great
job on it. But on the final visit to my
eye doctor in Saint Louis and I got this all documented,

(47:48):
I asked the young doctor, I removed my bubble and
checked my vision, and I said, what causes this? And
he said, well, usually it's old and that at that
time it was an old age. I can tell you,
but I have you ever seen this before? And the
young eye doctor said, you know, the only time I've

(48:10):
ever seen this, And I'm so thankful. I talked to
him and asked him that. He said, the only time
I've ever seen this happen was in younger people. There
were two cell phone tower workers. One of them was
back up on there. The installed some equipment. They fired
to cell tower up he was exposed to great amounts
of microwave energy and he had the same thing that

(48:30):
I had. Now when I went back and told Ted
that that confirmed Ted's suspicion that this was microwave in origin.
So that and you know, but that was just a
gift that we got. That that confirmed the microwave played
a part in this.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
That sounds like it. And do you have any theories
on what they might be searching for at this particular location?
I mean, did you ever get any clues? Is anything unusual?
There are there apographers, there are water features on Marley Woods.
Is it highly electromagnetic like in some of these other areas.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
You know? That drove Ted crazy. Also there was he
studied the topography. He thought that some of the locals
thought these things were coming in and out of the ground.
We studied there were no caves on Marley there. Now
there's some large cave complexes within eight ten miles of Marley,
which we felt some of them maybe did run under Marley,

(49:31):
but we could find no entrance or any exit on
Marley of this. But he didn't rule that out, but
ted We did all kinds of you know analysis, electrical
emf any, and we came up with nothing, you know,
trifield meters at the time. And of course the technology

(49:53):
you know back then was not what they have now.
I wish we'd have had some of that, and I
have taken some more up to date equipment. When we
shot with Uful Witness, I had some microwave equipment there
because I felt in my responsibility to protect these people
when we were there. And three times so we got

(50:13):
that on the episode of Uful Witness and you know,
at one am in the morning out there no power lines,
no homes, nothing. My microwave detection equipment had an audible
and a visual like to you and three times it
went into the from the green, yellow and the red

(50:34):
just for about a second or two. And that happened
three times. We got that on film. And now something
caused that. I actually feel in my mind it was
the intelligence letting us know or letting me know it
was still there. And capable of doing what it did before,
and it was in charge. And you know, at Skinwalker,

(50:56):
it always felt like when they dug out there, they
felt that was initiated the bad guy or the bad results.
And at Marley, it seemed like when we brought in strangers,
it didn't the intelligence didn't like strangers out there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
Yeah, it's interesting because you mentioned, you know, the phenomenon,
whatever it is, whatever its motivation is, it seems to
affect different people in different ways.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
You know, you.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Mentioned, you know, somebody vomiting and that you felt, fine,
what what do you think that? Why is that you
have any theories on that? Why it might attract to other.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
I tend studied the microwave issue damage back even into
the early military radar days when you know, they had
individuals exposed to high microwave radiation and radar, which your
microwave ements have come from that technology. You know, first
time a technician had a chocolate bar in his pocket
was exposed and melted to chocolate bar. That's how your

(52:02):
microwave oven started.

Speaker 4 (52:04):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
But but the thing we learned was each individual you
have a moisture content in your makeup of your body,
and that seems to be the most prominent factor on
damaging a human being. That if your moisture content is
higher than mine, you're going to be damaged worse than
I am, or in a different way. So little little

(52:26):
things like that that you wouldn't even dream of that
can affect why one person walks away and another person
gets hit pretty hard, you know, or in a different way.
So that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
And we're all resonating differently frequent frequency driven too, right,
All our frequencies are different, so maybe some people are
vibrating higher and lower. Did you ever have any like
strange hum sounds or noises or bangs reported out there
at Marley?

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Personally, I had never experienced the sounds the property owners did,
and uh yeah, low free equency modulation and uh yeah,
which is really strange. I'm not there now, and I
don't in my I don't claim it to be a
hitchhiker effect. I think there's something else going on. But

(53:13):
I experience that now at my home where no one
else does. And but no it it has been noted
there and people have had that experience, and and Ted
came away with some of that. And Ted actually experienced
going home with what is known as the hitchhiker effect.

(53:35):
Occurrences and feeling like something, the intelligence follows them home,
you know, and and there again in the paranormal mode.
You know. So but I will tell you that it's
so much more involved than just structured craft. And uh,
then people haven't any any clue. And I will tell

(53:57):
you that the government, the government knows that through the
contacts we had and I still have a couple. And
they always tell me when I do a show, when
I speak about the religious aspect of it and what
we learn from our contact read they always tell me.
He said, Tom, you make a habit of sailine in
treacherous waters. And I tell people that. He said, well,

(54:19):
is that a threat? And I said, well, I've already
talked to a certain individual, and I you know, I've
got nothing but what ted our work out there. And
so I mean, I can't pull a piece of wreckage
out of my file cabinet or anything like that. So
but but it does happen, and we did have people

(54:41):
in Saint Louis, Missouri researchers. I will tell you that
bad things do happen to good people sometimes.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
So yeah, that's true. I mean, your light is flickering
behind your shoulder there, Tom So, I don't know if
it always flickers like that or if that's paranormal or
Hittiker in nature.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
But we only have.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Five minutes left. This hour just flew by with you
and there's so I mean, we could do a deep
dive on each one of these topics, whether it's you know,
the lights, the spotlights, the fairy lights if you like
to call them to the cryptids, you know, all of
these things. But for the last five minutes, I would
like to just kind of talk to you about where
are you able to do any more research at Marley Woods,

(55:22):
What does the future plans for that, what does that
look like? If you could talk a little bit about that.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Yeah, we're what we're trying to do. Ted's got a
very unique office where he kept all this files over
the years, and it's not in Marley Woods, of course,
it's in another location. Of course has to be you know, anonymous.
But we're working with people and some of our team

(55:49):
members were getting a documentary slash movie together. We've been
working on for years and it'll be monumental and Adam
worked with Douglas Trumbull for years, which it doesn't get
any better, and that name may not mean much anymore
to people, but if you've ever watched Close Encounters, Third Time,

(56:11):
two thousand and one, Space Odyssey, Brainstorm, and on and on,
Douglas was the one that did all the special effects
on that and was very interested in UFOs. He had
some personal experiences. So but unfortunately Douglas passed away and
more and more out of the all the old timers,

(56:31):
and I can't believe I'm seventy now. I cannot believe
it because I was, you know, when I started all
this in sixty nine. I can't. I never thought i'd
live this long, to be honest. But all the people
that I've worked with, stan Ted, you know, Ray Stanford,
Chris O'Brien, and on and on and on, I'm about
the only one left. So I hear you. I know.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
It's so sad. We we're losing so many great in
the field, and I just think it's so important that
all this great work just gets passed down and preserved.
So that's a good message for all of you investigators
and research out there. Make plans for your collections goodness sakes,
you know, I know with Chris O'Brien is frustrating because

(57:18):
I don't know what happened to his decades of work,
and it's super unfortunate. So I hope somehow that surfaces
in someplace where it needs to be. But I think
the work is so important and shows, you know, like
beyond skin Walker and Skinwalker Rant. I know Skinwalker Rants
tends to get a lot of the notoriety, but there's

(57:38):
so many places, not only in the United States but
around the world. And that's what I just really liked
about the Beyond because they're you know, looking at all
of these other High Strangers location and Marley Woods is
obviously right there at the tippy top of these High
Strangers locations and has been researched for decades now, and
it's such an important piece to the puzzle. And I

(57:59):
really respected and Meyer of the work that you've done there,
and Ted Phillips has done, Jacques and all of these greats,
Chris and everybody. So thanks to all of them, and
thank you to you for all your work that you've
done and continue to do. You know, are you still
active there to at Debbie and I hear there's maybe

(58:20):
rumors of the dive team getting back together and that
so I hope that that's the case.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Probably not the dive team. I've tried to do some
diving this last weekend and I found out how rusty
I was, and I had a hip replacement, and I'm
getting I do rather well, but not near what I
used to be and wouldn't get to the depth we
used to do. Debbie did do another Alaskan triangle the

(58:46):
series was on. She did some incredible deep dives there
in cold water, you know, tech dives one hundred and
twenty foot and looking diving down on some objects they
thought was there. So I Meanie still an instructor and
does it. I was a dive master, but I've kind
of given that up. But you know, the only thing

(59:08):
I'd like to leave people with one thought. When you
get out investigating this, always know that it's dimensionally based.
That's one I know a lot of people will argue
with that. But if I had to put my money
on anything the people I worked with, that's the one
thing commonality fact that I know it's interdimensional and when

(59:31):
it comes here, it's very real. And here's the kicker, though,
you have the authority on this side to control it.
But if you give that away just calling upon it
like a Ouiji board a seance, you're giving it the
authority to be here. But it's very real, believe me.

(59:51):
And it's kind of like here again the Star Trek Dave.
We've kind of liked the prime director. I truly believe
we were put on this not to be interfered with.
And what comes across doesn't have the authority to be
here at times, and that's that's in a nutshell, So
be careful with what you're dealing with.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
That's a great way to end this show. I couldn't
agree with you more. Tom, thanks so much again for
being there, and be careful what you wish for and
if you open anything up, make sure you close that
and always have really good intentions because you're right, you
don't know what you're giving permission to enter, and so
be careful with that. And thank you again for being here,
your great guests. I learned a lot from your from

(01:00:33):
your interview here, it was really informative. So I hope
to have you back on in the future and have
a great rest of your week. Everybody, thank you all
for being here. We'll see you next Wednesday night. Byebye.