Chilled to the Bone: The Science Behind Fear’s Physicality

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Ever wondered how fear can be both thrilling and comforting? Join us as Ron embraces his goth side with a Sisters of Mercy shirt while Doug hilariously struggles to embody Bing Bong from Pixar's "Inside Out." We take a comical walk down memory lane, recalling some of our most creative (and sometimes cringe-worthy) Halloween costumes like Don’s creepy maggot-infested plague victim or Ron’s Jurassic adventure as a Dilophosaurus. Laughter and nostalgia fill the air as we remember the joy and occasional discomfort of Halloween getups past.

As the chilly nights creep in, we get into the cozy yet eerie spirit with tales of the Headless Horseman and other ghostly legends. It's a bit like buckling up for a roller coaster ride—terrifying yet exhilarating. We share personal stories about the tension of watching horror films at night, the relief of daylight, and how our unique fear responses add to the thrill. Whether you’re braving the darkness or just enjoying a spooky story, there’s something about that shiver down your spine that we can't resist.

Dive into the world of literature as we explore the fine line between terror and horror, drawing inspiration from Anne Radcliffe's Gothic novels. From the uncertainty and suspense in "The Thing" to the emotional depth in "It," we uncover why audiences love the unresolved unknown in storytelling. We also reminisce about childhood fears and the evolution of suspenseful tales, like the eerie conclusion of Ichabod Crane's story in "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow." Through this episode, we celebrate the art of storytelling and the mysterious allure that keeps us coming back for more.

Sound effect attribution:
Short Crunchy Splat by TomchikRec -- https://freesound.org/s/410913/ -- License: Attribution NonCommercial 4.0

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Episode Transcript

Don (00:26):
Hello, hello everybody.
Welcome back to the Uncanneryseason two of the Uncannery Big
two.
I'm Don, I'm Ron, I'm Doug, andwe're here again.
So how was your weekend,everybody?

Ron (00:41):
Oh my gosh, such an incredible weekend.
It was the first weekend ofOctober.
That means Halloween is comingup.
Can I get a woof, woof.

Doug (00:50):
No, because Halloween's not about dogs.
It's about cats typically,which I'm very excited about.

Don (00:56):
It's about dogs.
It's about werewolves.
Those are big dogs.

Doug (01:00):
A traditional cat gets its due finally, especially black
cats.

Don (01:07):
Was that the sound your cat makes?
It's such a great cat.

Doug (01:10):
It's really ferocious.
Is your cat dead already?
No, it's last breath.
Thanks for the life.
It's so dumb.

Don (01:21):
Have you picked out your Halloween costumes yet?

Doug (01:24):
I have yeah, I'm planning on.
I have a partner in crime whenit comes to teaching that we
have like similar sections andhe's kind of doing a punk rocker
theme and so I'm going to gogoth rock and we're going to
kind of so.
There's like a little bit ofsimilarity but a little bit of
rivalry too across the hallway.

Don (01:44):
Yeah, so you're going to do the eyeliner and everything I
was thinking about that.

Doug (01:48):
I've got a Sisters of Mercy shirt.
I've got some giant leatherboots that I used for a pro
wrestling outfit last year, butthey're going to be
reappropriated.
And then, yeah, black pants,eyeliner, wig we should be good.

Ron (02:01):
You got to get the wig, though wig we should be good.
Yeah, you gotta get the wigbill.
I've also been um co-opted byco-workers who have created a
theme for me, and the theme theywent with is, uh, the the pixar
film.
Inside out, um, but um like,which is a film about emotions
and the characters are all verysort of distinct.
You're gonna be bing bong.

(02:22):
That's exactly who I'm going tobe, Because everyone took all
the notable characters.
And I did a quick look onAmazon and there is like an
atrocious Bing Bong costume andI've only seen this film once
and I think I vaguely rememberwho Bing Bong is.
But he's like an elephant who'sa hobo and that's kind of me

(02:42):
that works.

Doug (02:43):
Elephant hobo.
No Descri who's a hobo, andthat's kind of me that works.

Ron (02:48):
Elephant hobo describes you .
Yeah, I fell asleep in thatmovie.
I don't think I fell asleep, Ijust don't remember that much.
I think it was.
It was like clever.
I think it was like pixar'sfilms now are just like so the
metaphor is so on the nose.
Yeah, like just so transparent.
Yeah, it's like the metaphor isthe film the next movie's gonna
be called metaphor, a filmabout something else.

Doug (03:11):
Coming to a theater to you , yeah that'll be fun.

Ron (03:17):
Yeah, but nothing spooky, I guess donna you have a spooky
costume and story.

Don (03:20):
You're gonna be an alien or something I'm gonna be the
invisible man because you'regonna be in bermuda, turn the
lights off and pretend that wedon't live here, but I, I used
to.
If you caught me in my youth, I, I would, uh, I would
definitely have been, uh,dressing up with the, uh, the

(03:41):
monster, makeup and makeup anduh and stuff.

Ron (03:43):
What was?
What was everyone's scariestcostume they ever had?

Doug (03:46):
Okay, I need to think Don do you have that?

Don (03:49):
Well, my, my go-to was was the standard.
So it involved I had to makerice every year.
So you make rice with coffeegrounds.
It makes it kind of maggotylooking, um and and I could glue
that on my face with someliquid latex so it kind of
looked like a big old maggotypustule popping out my face.
So that was my go-to with aRenaissance shaggy peasant

(04:13):
outfit.

Ron (04:14):
That was sick.
You're like a.
I'm the black plague victim.

Don (04:17):
Yeah, kind of yeah.

Ron (04:20):
Mine was a Dilophosaurus.
What?
Yeah, tell us about that he'sthe dinosaur in jurassic park
that spits at.
Uh, newman um, oh, yeah, yeahbut I found this mask in the
halloween store and I thoughtthat was so cool and it was just
the head of the dinosaur andthen like two gloves for his
talent hands and that was it,and so I think I just wore like

(04:43):
a green, like camp, summer campt-shirt, walked around like a
dinosaur did you have?
Does it have the frill?
No, I didn't have the frills,just the head.
You just walked around.
You just spit at people.
Um, honestly, I probably spiton myself more because the late
I found out a latex mask isfreaking awful and hot and I was
just like drooling and sweatyand I think probably only lasted

(05:04):
two hours before I took it offI don't know if it was my
scariest, but I'm thinking ofthis since you said latex mask,
because last year I was uh,mankind is the name of this uh,
professional wrestling.

Doug (05:18):
uh, I'm gonna say identity , because the wrestler is mick
foley, but he had like severaldifferent wrestlers that he
played.
He was cactus jack dudeSometimes he would literally
just go by Mick Foley, but thenhe created this character that
he was best known for, which wasmankind, um, which was this uh,
he had a leather mask that waskind of stripped together over

(05:39):
his face, a tie and a rippedwhite a tie and a ripped white
collar kind of shirt and brownpants, wrestling boots, and I
think the commentary was likethe disturbing nature of mankind
, because he's like an officeworker, but he's also kind of
leather face, but he's also it'slike this is mankind, this is

(06:00):
what we've been stripped to.

Ron (06:02):
I'm not even sure uh, I saw american psycho, yeah, so
you're scary.

Don (06:06):
I can pixar this costume was a scary wrestler yeah, I
think so.

Doug (06:10):
Okay, I think it qualifies .
Yeah, it did freak a lot ofpeople out.
They're like oh, god, that'smankind.

Ron (06:15):
Yeah, that's, that's who we are.
Oh god, that's a shallow andterrifying reflection of myself.

Doug (06:22):
Metaphor was not on the nose.
I was so bummed out by Pixarmovies.

Don (06:26):
I went let's go back to the classics, right there.

Doug (06:28):
Somebody saw me, though, and they said are you, are you a
dominatrix?
No, definitely not.
They just saw leather andimmediately thought that, and
then the boots, and I think thatthat was what did it, and then
they gave you the box of raisinsanyway.

Don (06:50):
So yeah, I think that'd be my pick for now.
I'm trying to think of otherones, but yeah, that's probably
it.
Well, I uh, I actually want totalk to y'all about, um, about
spooky things today.
So, since it's our, it'sperfect ron, are you gonna be
okay?

Ron (06:59):
uh, yeah, I'll be fine.

Don (07:00):
All right, you can hold him , it's okay, okay.
Eyesight will close her to Doughey buddy, are you familiar
with the story of the Legend ofSleepy Hollow by Washington
Irving?
Have you heard that one before?
Have you read that before?
Ooh, johnny Depp.

Doug (07:16):
Yeah, that's the only point of reference.

Ron (07:19):
I think there's also a cartoon I may have seen, like in
elementary school it's a famousdisney cartoon classic.

Doug (07:25):
Yeah to be fair, um, I haven't read it.
I I'm aware that it is literarywork first, um, but I actually
I do love the.
Is it 99?
When that came out, 1999, sleep, I don't know, man did.
I love it, really absolutelyloved it.

Don (07:41):
So I'm I remember having a different reaction, but I did
too.

Doug (07:47):
I loved it.
I yeah, I enjoyed theChristopher Walken's character.
I thought like his design waslike really creepy and I love
the headless horseman.
I thought that they did a goodjob with the design specifically
story I can't remember.

Ron (08:03):
Ron, are you familiar With the legend?

Don (08:07):
Not, tremendously, not, no more.
So you ever, you ever read itno, I've never read it, is it?

Ron (08:11):
uh, who steven something?
Who's?
Who's the author?

Doug (08:14):
washington washington steven irving steven to his
friends.
Denmark put anything in there.

Don (08:25):
Well, okay, what do you know about the story Before?

Ron (08:31):
we get to the part I want to share with you.
Ichabod Crane is in love with awoman and he's a scaredy cat,
and so everyone makes fun of him.
That's true.
And then there's something witha headless horse.
Does he become the headlesshorseman?

Don (08:48):
I think he's hunted by him.
So you know that the headlesshorseman is a is a feature in
this, in this legend is yeah,all right, it's the cool part,
right, all right, yeah, well, Iwant to.
I want to read you a passagefrom from the, the, the original
story by washington irving.
That's kind of setting up thescene.
So this is before anything hashappened.
This is just sort of to tointroduce it, doesn't?
It's not the very beginning,but it's towards the beginning
of the and it's describing themain character, who's Ichabod

(09:09):
Crane, who's the schoolmaster ofthe glen where they live, and
it's describing, kind of hispastime.
So here's how it goes.
Another of his sources offearful pleasure was to pass
long winter evenings with theold dutch wives as they sat

(09:30):
spinning by the fire with a rowof apples roasting and
spluttering along the hearth,and listen to their marvelous
tales of ghosts and goblins andhaunted fields and haunted
brooks and haunted bridges andhaunted houses, and particularly
of the headless horsemen, orgalloping Hessian of the hollow,
as they sometimes called him.
He would delight them equallyby his anecdotes of witchcraft

(09:52):
and of the direful omens andportentous sights and sounds in
the air which prevailed in theearlier times of Connecticut and
would frighten them woefullywith speculations upon comets
and shooting stars and with thealarming fact that the world did
absolutely turn round and thatthey were half the time
topsy-turvy.
But if there was a pleasure inall this, while snugly cuddling

(10:17):
in the chimney corner of achamber that was all of a ruddy
glow from the crackling woodfire and where, of course, no
spectre dared to show his face,it was dearly purchased by the
terrors of his subsequent walkhomewards.
What fearful shapes and shadowsbeset his path amidst the dim

(10:38):
and ghastly glare of the snowynight.
With what wistful look did heeye every trembling ray of light
streaming across the wastefields from some distant window.
How often was he appalled bysome shrub covered with snow
which, like a sheeted specter,beset his very path.
How often did he shrink withcurdling awe at the sound of his

(11:01):
own steps on the frosty crustbeneath his feet and dread to
look over his shoulder lest heshould behold some uncouth being
tramping close behind him?
And how often was he throwninto complete dismay by some
rushing blast howling among thetrees, in the idea that it was
the galloping Hessian on one ofhis nightly scourings?

(11:23):
All these, however, were mereterrors of the night, phantoms
of the mind that walk indarkness.
And though he had seen manyspecters in his time and been
more than once beset by Satan indiverse shapes in his lonely
perambulations, yet daylight putan end to all these evils and

(11:46):
he would have passed a pleasantlife of it, in despite of the
devil and all his works, if hispath had not been crossed by a
being that causes moreperplexity to mortal man than
ghosts, goblins and the wholerace of witches put together,
and that was.
The Headless horseman, I'm goingto stop there.

(12:08):
Yeah, okay.
Reactions.

Doug (12:13):
Thoughts.
Really beautiful description ofthe fear of the dark.

Ron (12:17):
Yeah, that was great.
He's reading to the Dutch wives, right?
We all love a Dutch wifeEspecially in groups what's the?

Don (12:25):
We all love a Dutch wife, especially in groups Like what's
the group noun for a Dutch wife.

Ron (12:30):
A windmill of Dutch wives.

Doug (12:32):
Really kind of stereotypical there, all right.

Ron (12:35):
A low country of Dutch wives?
Was he startling them withtales of science?

Don (12:43):
Yeah, there was Like oh God , the world is round.
Yeah, it was Exactly right, soit was.
They were startled to find outthat they were upside down
sometimes and that there'sshooting stars.

Doug (12:54):
Makes sense.

Don (12:55):
Yeah.

Doug (12:56):
Satan was brought into it.
I heard that yeah.

Don (12:59):
And I wanted to talk a little bit about.
So why does he so?
He goes specifically to hearthese stories that the Dutch
wives are telling about ghostsand haunted houses and haunted
bridges and haunted glens, andhe seems to enjoy them, but on
the way home the enjoyment seemsto wane a little bit.

Ron (13:22):
Yeah, yeah, because that's when uh his his mind is is
running amok with all of thesetales.
Right On the way home, I feellike, uh, this is uh frequently
something I hear, like um, frommy wife, who enjoys watching
horror films with me until themoment when the film is over,
and then she's like we have toplan when we can watch these

(13:42):
films.
Yep, um, because if we have togo to a bed within the next hour
or three hours, then she's likeI'm just that's gonna ruin me,
I'm just gonna be up all nightthinking about the film,
whatever and because of the,because of the cinematic
qualities of the film ordefinitely not in an analytical
way in that, if it wassuccessfully uh, startling and
horrific then now her mind, herimagination, like ichabod's will

(14:06):
, will be a light at everyslightest imaginary provocation
yeah, nikki has a very strongrule that it must be daylight
outside, and this perfectly fitswith the tale, but must be
daylight outside.

Doug (14:18):
If we're even going to consider a horror film, if we're
even gonna touch on that, it'sgotta be daylight outside, which
, during october.

Ron (14:28):
I do marathon horror movies , so it's tough for me yeah, and
I don't want to act like I'many cooler about this.
I also would prefer to watch ahorror movie, like in the light
of day, but I'm just like, uh,um, like I can't say that out
loud so yeah, yeah, yeah let'swatch that movie in the dark.
It's cool, it's fine I'm never,I'm never going to say
otherwise.

Don (14:47):
You're like let's invite 15 people over, though, yeah, and
let's have a bunch of pizza xboxon the other several breaks
yeah, that's right why why doesit matter what time it is or
what the status of the sunriseis?

Ron (15:04):
Because there are real horrors or things like.
I feel predisposed to fearthings right, and I think some
people are maybe better atconquering those fears or paying
them less heed.
There's certainly some thingsthat, like you know, don't scare
me, that probably scare otherpeople, things that do scare me

(15:24):
more.
We were talking about rollercoasters the other day.
I hate a roller coaster.
I can't get on a roller coaster.
I've been on a roller coaster,I've had fun on a roller coaster
, I totally get why people do itand I still just have very
little motivation to go on aroller coaster because of a fear
like a, a mostly unfounded butnot impossible.
Uh, chance that that I don'tcome back from that roller
coaster?

Doug (15:44):
yeah, um, the night is where the unimaginable happens,
right, I mean, even just nothingis illuminated for you in the
same way, but the same thingscan happen, of course, but your
mind is going to conjuresomething that's far more

(16:08):
terrible than what you canactually see.
We love that concrete evidenceof what we can see in front of
us.
You know that science like I,can use my senses to actually
explore there.
It's why horror films are oftenso dark or, you know, in not
only their uh content, but alsolike lighting.
That's very rare, except formidsummer, if you guys have seen

(16:29):
.
That's the only horror movieI've ever seen.
That's incredibly bright almostthe whole way through, but yeah
generally.

Don (16:36):
Well, do you want to know why this might be?
You want to talk a little bitabout what's going on inside
your brain, that maybe we candig into this a little bit first
.
First of all, do you know whatit was that was more frightening
to Ichabod than all of theogres witches put together, the
ghosts, the goblins, satan?

Doug (16:52):
Satan was in there somewhere, I said.
I said the headless horseman,but I don't think he's
introduced yet.

Don (16:56):
So I was going to say the dog yeah, he says uh by to all
the devils in his works, of hispath had not been crossed by a
being.

Doug (17:11):
That causes more perplexity to mortal man than
ghosts, goblins and the wholerace of witches put together.
And that was a woman oh, he'sin love.

Don (17:14):
Yeah, he's so awkward, yeah .
So some things never been there.

Ron (17:18):
There's a whole online community of ichabods.
Stay tuned for the next podcastwhere we're on on that.

Doug (17:27):
The problems with men online.

Don (17:34):
Anyway.
So, speaking of fear, responseand sensory data, so here's what
goes on in your brain.
Your brain's got two paths forfear processing, and we'll call
them the low path and the highpath, just to keep them straight
.
All right.
So low path is that your sensessense something, so sight

(17:55):
usually sounds.

Ron (17:56):
I hear a sound.
I hear a wolf on the distance,on the moors.

Don (18:01):
And your thalamus is kind of like the part of your brain
that's like the telephonedirectory, like it sends the
information to the right part ofthe brain and it sends that
information directly to theamygdala, which is an
almond-shaped organ kind of inthe base of your brain and it's
kind of I think it's like yourlizard brain, yeah, and so the

(18:23):
amygdala can take that responseor take that data and say, oh my
gosh, there's something to beafraid of.
And it immediately will triggerresponses which include
signaling other parts of yourbrain to release cortisol, which
is the stress hormone, torelease adrenaline to get your,
your, your face pumping and oryour, your heart pumping, and,
and that all happens withoutthinking.

(18:46):
Like that's the response when,like you open the cupboard and
there's a spider or whatever,and like you jump back and you
haven't had time to process evenwhat you've seen.
That response is why it'scalled the low path.
It's the pre-cortical path.
It bypasses the conscious partof your brain and it just reacts
to it.
And there's three possiblereactions.
Do you know what they are?

Ron (19:08):
Fight Flight, flight, fright.
No, there is a third one.
What is it Fright?

Doug (19:17):
Well, let's check.
If the first two are correct,that's good.

Don (19:19):
So fight is correct, and fight means that you can.

Ron (19:24):
You can punch it, you can bite it, you can kick it.
Defeat the thing you're afraidof.

Don (19:29):
Your amygdala thinks that you can kill whatever or defeat
whatever's in front of you.
You can switch the bug andflight is correct.
That means you run away, runaway.

Doug (19:44):
The other one is if this was a computer, rpg would be
dialogue.

Don (19:46):
You can persuade the thing to not be scary yeah, freeze is,
the is the third one yeah, um,and I think we see it more in in
other animals, but it is, it isavailable as a response so is
free supposed to be a sort of alike a period analysis?

Ron (20:02):
Is it like more info required?

Don (20:03):
No, I mean so that happens during the period of freeze, but
the freeze response they thinkcould be related to.
So one of the purposes of thefreeze response is to avoid
predation, so especially likeit's a Jurassic.

Doug (20:18):
Park movie.

Don (20:18):
Right, if you stay still then the predator won't see you
as much or like cows, you knowjust right.

Ron (20:24):
No, I don't I don't work with cows they're constantly in
a prey state.

Don (20:30):
It's so sad but I've seen them like you have.
I have seen it in humans, butit usually happens like it
responds to a loud noise, likebecause you just freeze for a
second, and then it does giveyou the time to process what's
going on.

Doug (20:42):
It's the does that mean the uh?
Are we familiar with faintinggoat syndrome?
Yeah, Is that like the mostoverdeveloped freeze response of
all time, cause it is loudnoises.
Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

Ron (20:54):
Is that also the possum you know playing dead?
Is that an evolved freeze Likeoh it is, yeah, yeah.
Evolved freeze like oh it is,yeah, yeah, it's the same thing.

Don (21:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's the low path, that'sthe like big danger, immediate,
you don't have to think about it, your brain reacts Okay.
Then we have what's called thecortical path, or the higher,
the high path, so similarprocess.
You get some kind of stimulusinformation from your sensory
organs, goes to the thalamus,who then, rather than sending it

(21:22):
to the amygdala, sends it tothe cortex, sends it to the part
of your brain that is consciousand can evaluate the danger.
The cortex also then connectsto the amygdala.
So if it is dangerous, then thecortex can send the same fear
signals to the amygdala andcause the same fear responses.
It just happens a little bitslower because that first step

(21:42):
has to happen, where your brainprocesses the danger to
determine, hey, I'm, I need todo something, and then the
amygdala does the same fearresponses.

Ron (21:53):
So one uh, in one of those we get a an opportunity to think
or rationalize what ourresponse will be.
And then the other one is it'sa sort of immediate, and I think
that explains actually a lot ofthe problem like uh, I enjoy
watching horror films, butusually alone or with, just like
my wife or like one otherfriend or something like.
I can't do them in groups.
My friends used to be like let'sall go out to the horror movie

(22:15):
and I was like, no, I don't wantit, I'm too scared.
But really what I, what I wasafraid of was not being able to
control when I'm afraid.
That's why I don't like thejump scare or the sudden.
I fear that low path, the factthat for an instant I will be
reduced to a base creature and Iwill not have mastery over

(22:37):
myself and I will react in apotentially silly way, A way
that will seem silly inhindsight.

Doug (22:43):
So you're worried about the shame?
Yes, a hundred percent.

Don (22:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The shame of just thebiological evolution of your
brain, like that's nothing to beashamed of Absolutely.

Ron (22:51):
I know, I know, but uh, that's where, that's where I'm
coming from right now, or I haveyou fixed me now, don let's go
watch.
Terrifier.

Doug (23:03):
Oh my gosh.

Don (23:05):
So, though, if we go back and thinking to, to Ichabod,
right Like which one of thosepaths is operating in Ichabod's
situation?

Ron (23:13):
Oh, the high path right when he's walking at night.

Don (23:15):
Yeah.
Because there's nothing thereto be afraid of.
The things that he's noticingare shadows and bushes and A
shrub that I almost laughedreally hard during that part but
have you had that experience?

Doug (23:26):
absolutely right yeah, absolutely yeah, I remember that
.
My um are we familiar with?
Uh, tales from the crypt thecharacter.
For any listeners who don'tknow, it was a very cool show.
Um, that, because I was tooyoung to watch I there was a lot
of very adult content in them.
A lot of the time you knowwhere they'd have some

(23:47):
scandalous things because itcame from pulp comics.
But I was allowed to watch a lotof times the intros to the show
in which the crypt keeper, whowas this decrepit like,
basically a decaying corpse like, who talked in a very high
voice and had a high pitch laugh.
He would introduce the showsand I was fascinated with him as
a kid, but he really scared thehell out of me, like it.

(24:08):
It just the the way that he wasanimated and propped up and
there was one night classic.
My parents are going to watchtales from the crypt.
Watch the introduction soembarrassing.
Yeah, this one is for me.
This was really embarrassing.
Watch the introduction, go tobed.
I'm thinking about him and, ofcourse, outside of outside of my

(24:30):
window, I just hear and I'mthinking it's him walking
outside of my room.
I've watched this too manytimes.
He's come for me now what Ilater found out it was my dad
stepping outside to just let thedog out to go to the bathroom.
But in that moment I got soscared I froze and this is why

(24:51):
this is relative.
I froze literally to the pointthat I thought I cannot move.
He's going to be here and Ican't move.
I took a breath in as quicklyas I could because I was like
having a panic attack and I wentand then ran out of my bed
Cause I thought if I've gotenough speed he can't get me.
I fling myself into my parents'office at the time, completely

(25:12):
out of breath, and all I couldget out was grip keepers gonna
get me and then just fell downand passed out.
I couldn't go from there.
That was it.
Um, there was that much fear inthat moment, um, and now all of
that was created.
But yeah, it's interesting thatyou talked about the different
paths because, like I kind ofexperienced almost all of those

(25:35):
stages.
Like there's a little bit offight in terms of like, if I run
or run, if I run right now hecan't get me, but I've got to
get out of this frozen stage sowhy did you watch him then?
I just had to, I just I likedhim so much I.
I always had this fascination.
I remember going, like againwalking around in blockbuster

(25:56):
with my dad because he wouldwatch horror movies and I'd ask
him about every single one ofthem.
I think there was like acertain amount of danger that I
was like I wanted to be around.
You know of like, oh, this isreally creepy, I should be able
to handle this.
Dad, did you see this one?
And I was, of course, always soimpressed, like you watch that
too, and that one as well.
You must be so brave.
Uh yeah, I was always obsessedwith, um, yeah, kind of horror

(26:19):
icons.
I always loved the world.
I still do.

Don (26:22):
I'd like absolutely love horror, but when I was younger,
so when the cryptkeeper was onyour tv and you were watching
him to do his monologue.

Doug (26:30):
Yeah, was that scary it was, my heart would start
pounding a lot faster.
But then there's a little bitof like.
My parents thought I couldhandle it so I'd go.
I yep, I got it because Iwanted to see him and do his
thing.
There was also a cartoon on atthe time, so there was like a
kid's cartoon version of him aswell, and so that was where a
lot of the fascination started,cause it was like a four kids

(26:51):
version and so maybe that wasthere.
But yeah, I wanted to be kindof close to it, I wanted to be
just close enough.

Don (26:57):
So was it scary when he was on tv, or was it scarier when
you were in your room?

Doug (27:00):
I guess it's scarier when I'm in my room because I'm
creating another.
What if he did this?

Ron (27:07):
you know, even though yeah, well, at least when he's on the
tv he's contained by the tvright and, like you don't know,
you know what the script demandshe will do next, right, so he
might shock you in that momentor something, right?
But at least you canrationalize.
This is all projected onto ascreen, right?
But?
As soon as you, if you, if youcarry that with you from the
screen, and now you're goingabout your day now he can be

(27:28):
anywhere.
He can be anywhere.

Doug (27:30):
Showing up in my closet going hey kiddies?

Don (27:32):
Yeah, exactly that's what he sounded like.

Doug (27:37):
I, I, I do an okay impression of him.
Yeah, I like him.

Don (27:41):
Well, what you're describing actually has a
distinction that others havedescribed.
So I want to share with you alittle bit from a writer named
Anne Radcliffe.
So she's a 1700s English authorfamous for Gothic literature,

(28:05):
which is famous for being thefirst type of scary stories that
we have right.
So her, the Italian is, is oneof hers.
The Mysteries of Udolpho isanother one, that which
basically is, like you know,scary castle on a crag and yeah,
is there like a thing?

Ron (28:15):
I've read the Italian, but is there like a theme that kind
of connects her works, Like likewhat?
What is the kind of horrorshe's interested in?

Don (28:23):
well, well, I don't want to tell you because because I know
ron because it has to do withthis piece that I'm gonna, that
I'm going to quote first, whichis also a fictional piece, but
it it's non-fiction.
It's non-fiction written as adialogue, so, and it's called on
this, on the supernatural andpoetry.
So it's a made-up dialoguebetween two persons about what

(28:46):
is scary and uh, and one of themis bringing up the part that,
um, that sublimity, so this ideathat something is overwhelming
is one of the sources of fear,which goes back to edmund burke,
which we talked about last timetime, before, a couple times,
yes, anyways, um, so one of theperson says they must be very
men of very cold imaginations,with whom certainty is more

(29:09):
terrible than surmise.
Terror and horror are so faropposite that the first expands
the soul and awakens thefaculties to a higher degree of
life.
The other contracts, freezesand nearly annihilates them.
So the distinction being madeis whether what you're being
afraid of is in front of you,which is horrible, or something

(29:34):
that you are imagining,something that is less certain,
something that is vague in itsdescription, or its access to
you that seems to be of a higherlevel, and that's why he says,
expands the soul, and that wouldbe called terror.
So there's making a distinctionbetween terror, which is
basically your imagination, andhorror, which is an external
stimulator.
Responding to oh yeah.

Ron (29:55):
I uh, I like that a lot, um , because one I think that
describes Doug earlier you asked, like I don't know why I was so
interested in it and I havealso always had a hard time,
like I do really love likehorror literature, horror films,
like engaging with terrifyingmedia, even though I would

(30:18):
consider myself like ratherichabod about these sorts of
things.
Um, but there is always sort ofhold, a sort of fascination, and
I think when, when youencounter a really good piece of
uh, horror media, whetherthat's a novel or a film or
whatever, it does have a sort ofum, I don't know, I've always
to to a degree with enlargeningor or increasing my awareness of

(30:43):
something like it's hard tolike.
Sublimity is kind of what she'sget with Radcliffe is getting
at Right and I think there isthat measure to it as well.
Right, like when we encounterthe sublime, um, there is a sort
of terror aspect, but I don'tconsider it negative, is a sort
of terror aspect, but I don'tconsider it negative.

(31:04):
In fact, I find it an emotionor an experience I seek like
that I enjoy.

Doug (31:07):
Yeah, there, uh, there's a video game that was, I believe,
just re-released last night Um,that is from when I was much
younger called, uh, silent Hill,and this is the second Silent
Hill.
So Silent Hill 2 is remastered.
It's considered a staple classicof the horror genre in video
games and I think 90% of thereason that that game gets the

(31:30):
credit it does for how horrificit is is everything is covered
in a layer of fog that youcannot see but four to five feet
in front of you and you have aradio on you at all times.
That starts to kind of echostatic when something is in the
fog that is going to come afteryou.
And it's interesting that bothof those things, like radio

(31:52):
static and fog are both kind oflike it's it's.
It's interesting Cause I lookat them as cognates, visually
and audibly, like I look at themas the exact same thing in some
, in some respects, and I thinkthat those very much rely on the
terror of what it could be,because generally I think in
like the first sequence of thegame, you're fighting the same

(32:12):
type of enemy over and overagain and they didn't really
need to design another type ofenemy because the second you
hear that radio go off and youknow it's close.
You always think but what ifit's bigger than the last one I
saw?
and that's what carries youthrough the entire game.
It's like that never stopsfeeling that way and that's why
I think it's such a classic um,and I think that relies a lot on

(32:35):
terror, because you doeventually see the things and it
gets into horror.

Ron (32:38):
But that it's very terrifying, but the terror and
horror are separated by theunknown right the what we do not
know becomes the, the, therealm of terror, correct, and
what we see in front of us isthe realm of horror right,
because terror is activated byyour imagination so it's your
magic, your imagination,building what it is that you are

(33:00):
afraid of, as opposed tosomething that you're actually
encountering.
Oh, I think that that unknownfactor is what Radcliffe would I
mean.
I don't know if this is exact,but what Radcliffe says is uh,
what was her exact word?
She said it's uplifting orsomething.

Don (33:16):
Expands the soul.
Expands the soul Right.

Ron (33:18):
Expansive Right.
Iands the soul right.
Expansive right I think theunknown must be that quality
that gives it that expansiveproperty right yeah.

Doug (33:28):
Oh, all I was going to add is I was curious about the idea
of do I have it right that ifsomething is like enshrouded in
fog and the you know, like thestatic going off, eventually you
see the thing Would, we canstill consider that terror?
Or because I can see the fogand hear the noise?
It does it require 100%imagination in this way?

(33:50):
Does that make sense?

Don (33:51):
No, no, I think if you're seeing through the fog and you
see a figure through the fog,it's still terrible because I
don't know what.
Like I created something there,but I'm not sure what it is.

Ron (34:02):
Intention and motive and detail are what held for you.

Doug (34:07):
We had the definition straight because, yeah, there's
a really interesting line wherethe terror becomes horror in
that game, where you do seeeverything so and it's not as
scary anymore.

Don (34:16):
So, to circle back to your question about the thread
running through Radcliffe's work, so I think it is this reliant,
not reliance, this emphasis onthe unknown and the uncertain.
So, um, one of the one of thethe schticks for lack of a
better word that she utilizes inthe mysteries of udolpho is is
this painting that is supposedto be so horrible that that it's

(34:40):
covered with a veil?
And the owner of the castle,like, keeps it covered.
And nobody's supposed to be sohorrible that that it's covered
with a veil?
And the owner of the castle,like, keeps it covered and
nobody's supposed to look at itand nobody's supposed to see it.
And, um and uh, emily, who's themain character of the story, is
in the castle and she's beingled around by one of the maids,
and the maids like, oh no, Idon't, I don't even know, I
haven't heard anything about it,but don't look over, there have
to, you know, emphasizing thatthat this is something that

(35:01):
we're not supposed to do.
We're not supposed to.
So emily, later, um, sneaksback into the room and, uh, it
says that she passed on, withfaltering steps and, having
paused a moment at the doorbefore she attempted to open it,
she then hastily entered thechamber and went towards the
picture, which appeared to beenclosed in a frame of uncommon
size that hung in a dark part ofthe room.
She paused again and then, witha timid hand, lifted the veil,

(35:26):
but instantly let it fall,perceiving that what it had
concealed was no picture, andbefore she could leave the
chamber, she dropped, setless,senseless, on the floor.
So even in that, like we, themain character has an experience
and we're left in the dark yeah, yeah and, and it just builds
on that mystery over and overagain throughout the text as it
leads up to that, that they'rebuilding on that terror idea.

Ron (35:49):
I think this is also why people have such sort of uh
vehement reactions to uh ahorror film that ends or like
functions on a twist that theydon't find satisfactory, and
this is, I think, explains thewhole sort of outrage against m
night shamalan at some pointright famous horror film

(36:10):
director who you know, reallyhit it out of the park with a
couple good ones, but then sortof became considered a little
more camp as his twist sort ofbecame more contrived.
Right, because almost all ofthem function on a sort of
imperfect, uh, sense of what ishappening and going on.
That creates an eerie andmysterious and, um, enthralling

(36:31):
sort of atmosphere.
But then, as soon as the twisthappens, if that twist doesn't
like whatever's behind that veilof that picture, if we find out
and it does not match what Iimagined, I'm gonna be mad,
right, or if it's less, intenseless.

Don (36:44):
I remember the like signs was that was that for me right,
like, like the, but actuallythis you bring up a good point
and this is kind of where the,the seed of this episode, comes
from, because doug and I weretalking, um about the movie a
quiet place, yeah and uh, and Iloved the movie a quiet place
when it came out.

(37:05):
Um but I didn't see a quietplace too, and and I, I, I just
I knew I didn't want to, but Ihadn't really thought about it
until um Doug asked me about itand and what?

Doug (37:16):
I told you, right, and then you hadn't thought this all
the way through but I told youthat I liked a quiet place
because you don't see themonster.
Yeah, it's always.
If you do, it's part of it andit's.

Don (37:30):
It's moving at a speed that you can't yeah, absolutely.
And then the trailers for aquiet place, too, like they were
everywhere, and I didn't wantseeing a quiet place, too, to
ruin my experience of a quietplace yeah, but absolutely and,
and now that I have all of theseterms straight like.
So what I I liked about a quietplace was that it raised that
terror.

Doug (37:48):
It expanded my soul, it terrified you it did instead of
horrified you right where thequiet place.

Don (37:54):
Two would would, I think, sink it because it because
horror is at a different level.

Doug (37:59):
It's a lower level than terror, according to the way
that burke and um and radcliffeare classifying them yeah, it's
interesting because I thinkimmediately about, uh, john
carpenter's the thing, which isvery firmly rooted in the 80s.
You see every single mutationof that monster that exists and
that movie will always be stuckin the 80s because of those

(38:22):
those kind of animatronic thingsthat he created and all of the
uh, the uh practical effectsthat he kind of put together to
make that what it is.
But what's interesting aboutthat film is it is the terror of
not knowing who the thing is.
You're constantly wondering whoon the crew is infected now and
is going to become the thing,and that's why I think that

(38:43):
movie continues to endure, whichis also, its most terrifying
scene is the one where theyfinally devise the test by which
they will identify the thingright, that is it's

Ron (38:52):
not when you know he's eating the dog or anything like.
Uh, the monster isn't even inthe most terrifying scene, right
?

Doug (38:59):
yeah, they're just checking blood platelets and
we're all wondering, yeah, it'sso great.

Don (39:05):
So I think one, I think so.
That's clearly what I'veidentified.
And then I was also thinkingabout um Stephen King, is it?
Yes, right?
Which um have you read?

Ron (39:17):
I've not read it.
I've not read it.
I know what happens in it.
I've never even seen any of thefilms or the miniseries or
anything.

Don (39:24):
I didn't see the two most recent films.
I saw the Tim Curry versionback in the 90s.
Have you seen Red?

Doug (39:32):
So I haven't read, I've seen both versions, yeah.
I've consumed all of the mediavisual media.

Don (39:40):
So it was published in 1986 , media, uh, visual media, so it
was, uh, it was published in1986.
Um, and I, I enjoyed it on atrip, a school trip that I had,
uh, in the late eighties, and itwas my first Stephen King and
and it was my first thousandpage book, so it was a, it was a
point of pride for me and, uh,and I know my gosh, it was so
much fun, it was such a goodbook.
I thought it was so much fun,it was such a good book, I

(40:00):
thought it was so wellstructured.
It it's scary, it's um, it'sgreat, until like 50 pages from
the end, and in 50 pages fromthe end you see the monster and
yeah, it like everything that Iwas afraid of the whole way
through the book.
Like it.
It crashes because it's.
I loved being terrified, Iloved terror.
But then when it gets to thepoint where they have to

(40:23):
actually encounter the creatureat the end of the story, then
that terror goes away, it likeevaporates.
And I think that's really aninteresting phenomenon because
it wasn't just like.
That was my first experiencewith it.
But it's not only that.
Where that that happens, I havea lot in scary movies, like
even even Friday the 13th, thathappens.
That happens a lot in scarymovies, like even even friday

(40:44):
the 13th, like I know what whatjason looks like, but it's, it's
where.
It's not knowing where he mightbe.
That's the scary part.
Once he appears on screen, well, he's right there.

Doug (40:51):
like that's not scary anymore unless it's jason's mom
in the first one.
You never know, don't forget,absolutely.
Um, yeah, I would agree withthat.
I definitely would agree withthat.
That's why I think so many ofthese movies especially and
books applies as well.
But I just I've seen so many ofour movies that's that could be
a sub podcast of its own if wewanted to do.

(41:13):
But, um, the greatest onesalways have an incredible cast
of characters that you arelooking to that are separate
from the monster.
If the characters are reallymemorable or you sympathize with
them in some way, I find thatthe monster can almost shift and
change, and that's why it'sinteresting, the new it is in

(41:33):
it's separated into two partsand the part where they are kids
it is, uh, it is so emotionallymoving.
It's that you are so invested inthem, because each of their
stories is so powerful that Ithink Pennywise could be
anything and he kind of isanything in that first one.
But because you're so investedin them and their struggles and
their insecurities and whatthey've gone through it's just

(41:56):
phenomenal because you're moreterrified for them, because you
know how vulnerable they are.

Don (42:00):
Yeah, the novel is structured that way too, in two
parts.
That's great, yeah, that'sgreat.

Ron (42:04):
I think also like there's um, like uh.
I think horror films areactually very difficult to make
because, kind of to the point,you're talking about Don, like
uh resolution is very difficultto pull off in a horror story.

Don (42:19):
Yeah.

Ron (42:20):
Because I think of the, the ones I enjoy the most, tend to
have a sort of ambiguousresolution or a.
It cannot be a.
The heroes conquered theproblem and the day is saved.
Resolution, right Like.
I'm sure you can pull that off,but usually there there has to
be.
There's always that you know.
And then you know they'rewalking away and then hope there
has to be.
There's always that you know.
And then you know they'rewalking away and then, oh, but

(42:41):
who's that behind them?
Did the monster really survive?
Because I think that's sort ofkey to the experience of horror
and terror.
Right is, especially if we'retalking about the unknown, right
, the unknown can never be known.
No, no, no, all unknowns willever be all known, right?
That seems to me like to be asort of paradox of the genre and
like and the way we tellstories.

(43:02):
Stories need resolutions.
We love a resolution, but butour, our imagination never has a
resolution.
That the sort of the terrors wecan build upon ourselves is
unending.
Therefore, a horror storycannot resolve the crisis it
sort of creates, I think.
And sometimes when theysomething they can be done, but
usually I think.
And sometimes when theysomething that they can be done,
but usually, I think,ambiguously, right yeah was that

(43:23):
really a good ending for thatcharacter?
did they really solve thatproblem?
Are we really safe?
Those are the sorts of likequestions.

Doug (43:30):
I think the good ones end on and it's interesting because
stephen king I've heard so manytimes brought up in the context
of just can't stick the landing,like just always, endings are a
struggle for him.
And we brought up M nightShyamalan exact same thing.
A few of them he nailed it butfor the most part always blows
it at the end.
And you're right.
I think that there's somethinginnate to the cliche of and they

(43:54):
got away or did they is almostalways the, but generally it's
the best choice because itleaves you with that sense of
terror.

Don (44:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just shout out to to stephenking, though, because he does
build the best psychologicalterror.
Yeah it throughout, and I thinkI would argue the shining is
probably his best.
Yeah, because of that ambiguousending.
Like, yeah, like jack dies,like that's the end of that
ambiguous ending, like, yeah,like Jack dies, like that's the
end of that story, but likewhat's up with that hotel?

Doug (44:22):
What really is going on in that hotel?
Absolutely.

Don (44:25):
Right, yeah, so that that elevates that up to, and as long
as we're talking about King, tojust make sure that we've
covered all our bases, becauseKing also has written about, uh,
he's written about horrorwriting and he, he finds the
same um categories that AnnRadcliffe mentioned, which is
terror being the highest version, and then horror.
But he adds a third category.

(44:46):
Actually, um, stephen King addsa category called revulsion.
So revulsion is the, is thegore, it's the, it's the, the
bugs, the shock.

Ron (44:56):
Yeah.
And it's you with the rice onyour face.
It's right, that's what it is.

Don (45:02):
So he's got three categories, where Radcliffe has
two.

Ron (45:06):
I'm wondering, since it seems to be our hypothesis, don,
that we are attachingRadcliffe's definitions of
horror to the actual brainchemistry, the way we react to
horror, is there a uh, a way wecan map king's revulsion onto
our physiology?

Don (45:26):
or biology.
Well, I think we'd have to,we'd have to speculate about it,
and I think it it depends uponwhat your reaction is to things
that are revulsed ting, ting,thank you, because so
Revolsivatory For terror thebrain chemistry is that's going
through the cortical process,that's your imagination creating

(45:48):
a problem that doesn't reallyexist, but then causing a
physical reaction in your brainby signaling your amygdala to
prepare you for fight or flight,and then horror is probably the
.
It's the lizard brain reaction,right?
Because all of the monstersthere, you have to react to the
monster.
So I don't know.

Ron (46:06):
So there's only the two paths.

Don (46:08):
So I'm wondering for the gore, right, Is it like?
Is it shocking, Like I need toflee from the gore.
So is it lizard brain reaction,or is it?
Oh, something terrible musthave happened here.
Let me imagine what that was.
And that create like so neitherway it's, cause there's only
the two paths.
So I don't know which way doyou think it works?

Doug (46:28):
It's because you're thinking with the wrong organ
here, if your stomach is aboutto throw up.
You know it's revulsion, that's.
He's feeling sick, Absolutely.
Let's respect the whole body,gentlemen.

Ron (46:44):
This was.
I'm wondering if any of you orour listeners have had a similar
experience, but there's afamous story in my family where
we like pulled up to.
It was just like a boringnormal Sunday.
We pulled up to a mall orsomething and for some reason,
my sister or brother I can'teven remember who was sick in
the car and, like as soon asthey got out of the car, they
threw up.

Don (47:05):
And then, like that, caused me to throw up, like another
one of us also threw up, like,right, that that's.

Ron (47:07):
That seems that's also stephen king, let's stand by me,
that's yep, oh yeah so yeah,that's the revulsion, uh, um
trigger right.

Doug (47:14):
there is nothing funnier to me like there have been so
many school bus field trip typesituations where you'll hear a
student and then another studentand then another.
Andnier to me, like there'vebeen so many school bus field
trip type situations whereyou'll hear a student and then
another student and then another, and that to me like that's the
highest level of humor.
I am always in tears, laughing,trying so hard not to laugh, but
it's just so funny to hear thechain reaction.
But yeah, revulsion, yeah, itseems to catch on in a certain

(47:35):
way.

Don (47:36):
Yeah, so we've um in a certain way.
Yeah, so we've um, and I've gotone more piece of literature I
want to talk about.
But but, since we've been, youknow, we've been kind of heady
with, uh, with Washington Irvingand Ann Radcliffe, just to help
kind of ground examples of this, what we're thinking can.
Can you think of examples maybefrom movies that that would be
this imaginative terror anddifferent ones that are horror

(47:58):
and different ones that arerevulsion, that that would kind
of clarify what we're talkingabout?

Ron (48:03):
Yeah, I think like uh jaws, I think, operates in the first
half on the terror and then thesecond half becomes sort of the
adventure of horror, which iswhy I think jaws two and three
and four are are held to theesteem that they're held to,
because jaws one very high right, yeah, the lowest are held to
the esteem that they're held tobecause Jaws 1.

Don (48:23):
Very high esteem the lowest , jaws 1, the shark is not seen
for the majority of the film.
It's only at the very end andmost of it is just, you know.
You see, the remnants of whatthe shark has done, rather, than
seeing the shark itself.

Doug (48:36):
I always argue that Jaws is two films.
Like there's the horror or, I'msorry, jaws is two films.
There's the horror or I'm sorry, the terror portion in which
who's going to get bit next, andthen the action sequence
blockbuster.
If they're going to say it'sthe first blockbuster, it's
because the second part's anaction movie.
I think through and through ofhow are we going to beat this
thing?
And we see it a lot.
Yeah, and it takes away thatfear I'm yeah, and it takes away

(49:01):
that fear.
I I've never scared.

Don (49:02):
even the music in in those sections is like so triumphant,
like pull the bolts around andit's like I'm not scared at all,
right now yeah, but then whenthat, uh, when that head rolls
into yeah, when they gotta gofind the sunk yacht.

Ron (49:13):
That still gets me every time, oh everybody.

Don (49:16):
That's one of the best jump scares ever, yeah, ever yeah
that would be horror, sure would, sure would.

Doug (49:22):
Yeah, and a little revulsion because he's real
gross, that's true.
But but revulsion, it takes itanother step further.
You brought up uh terrifier,didn't you?

Ron (49:30):
as yeah, yeah, that's.
Have you seen that film?
No, I think I remember seeingthe trailers and it's just, yeah
, it's yeah, it's not really.

Doug (49:38):
It is horrific and that there is a monster clint, but
it's all about, like what is themost violent and disturbing
kill, like what's the worst waywe can leave a corpse and how
long can we focus on the goreand blood.
I think that that's like thepoint of those films yeah, that
makes me think of hostilehostile is yeah same thing
torture it.

Don (49:56):
It's revolted like it would be a terrible situation to be
in, for sure.
But but the point of the movieis is to gross people out.

Doug (50:03):
yeah, yeah, there's a whole wave of uh, italian horror
movies in the 70s called giallofilms, and they would just hold
on the kill forever, like itjust would be.
How many different ways.
There was like an insane one.
Uh, there's a film calledsuspiria in which, um, the first
are you familiar with this film?
No, first victim, like, Ibelieve, is stabbed, falls

(50:25):
through glass and then, like,literally falls into a noose and
is hung and then, like, wasstabbed in the gut so the guts
fall out.
It's just, it's so absurd youcan't help but go like come on,
like, this is just insane, butit's part of the yeah, the
revulsion is a part of the genre.

Don (50:42):
Yeah, Exorcist.
How would you, how would youclassify exorcist?
Ooh, I think exorcist is horrorright Cause.

Ron (50:48):
The threat is always contained.
You know where it is.
You start to learn the rules ofthe threat and and there's a
lot about visualizing the threat.
Yeah, visualizing the threat.

Doug (51:02):
yeah, right, so it's her head spinning and right the you
know horrible, horrifying voice.
But terror in the beginning, asthere, I think, is you're
seeing some of the scenes andand wondering what they're going
to do.
But then also revulsion gets.
There's things.
I will not even repeat rightnow that she says that I go, oh,
and I still think to this dayand I go like awful, which is a
psychological revulsion right.

Don (51:20):
Yes, as opposed to like the vomit or the blood revulsion
that we yeah, yeah.
Are you guys too little to knowthat?

Doug (51:27):
Amityville Horror.
Oh no, I'm very the most famous, get out.

Ron (51:33):
I've seen all the documentaries about it, but
never the actual film.
Really oh okay.

Don (51:41):
And so that I think I would classify as terror.
Yep, because it you neverreally see what the, yeah, what
the entity is that is yeah andthat film's famous for um, for
the inclusion of, of subliminalum images in the.
There's like a few scenes whereit's it's got like a couple
frames of yeah and things likethat.

Doug (51:59):
Sure yeah.

Don (52:00):
All right.
So one thing that I think isinteresting, just to wrap us up,
is this seems to have beenintuited by authors way before
it was identified by AnnRadcliffe in 1826, when she
wrote that piece that I read,because trying to think of the

(52:23):
earliest monsters, right, we'vegot Greek mythology monsters.

Ron (52:27):
Yeah.

Don (52:28):
Right, but we bring it into the realm of English, we've got
Beowulf and his first fightwith Grendel.
Yeah, right, and Grendel is soit's a creature that's never
really described Like I don'tknow, it's described as a demon,
but it has a physical form.
It's causing physical harm toto to man it has a claw.

(52:52):
It has a talon Right, Um, and,but it never like.
I don't know, is it an ogre?
Is it a troll?
Is it a?
How tall is it?
Like?
None of those details are everfilled in.
And and Seamus Heaney, Irishpoet who did the translation of
Beowulf in 1999, talks aboutthis and he compares it to, or

(53:13):
contrasts it rather with thedragon.
He says the dragon has awonderful inevitability about
him and a unique glamour.
But then he gets to Grendel.
He says Grendel comes alive inthe reader's imagination as a
kind of dog breath in the dark,A fear of collision with some
hard-boned and immensely strongandroid frame, A mixture of
Caliban and Hoplite.

Ron (53:34):
The warrior qualities of Grendel, I thought, were always
the sort of the key thing right.
He has to be horrifying to amartial culture that believes it
can solve its problems throughwarfare right.

Don (53:50):
And they cannot solve the Grendel problems, right, right.
And so what I think is sounique is that it was probably
developed over time, rightThrough oral tradition, and we
have one written version of thisstory.
But even through all that time,the storytellers knew not to
over-describe this monster notto give this monster a concrete,
definite figure form, becausethat makes it more terrifying.

(54:15):
He is the shadow stalker, he isthe shadow stalker, he is the
flesh slayer, and then he'scalled.
There's one other word, it'scalled the aglica.
In old English means monster,but it's a word that can be used
for like a terrifying monsterlike Grendel, but also for a

(54:38):
warrior.
Like an intimidating foe well,and but I'm so that word has
gone out of our language, but Ithink it's interesting is that
we, we maintain that comparison.
So you can call oh somebody's abeast, oh he's a beast.

Doug (54:54):
Yes, yes, he's a monster man, yeah right and yeah, and it
could mean that he's he's agrendel, or it could mean that
he's just super strong andintimidating, right yeah, I, I
find it really fascinatingbecause I'm thinking of the oral
tradition and I'm wondering howmany times this was told and,

(55:14):
as the orator speaking the storyinto existence, if this is
something that's refined bywatching the reactions of those
that he's telling it to right,like you know, looking out, and
maybe in some of thosedescriptions, like there are
versions of Grendel that arefully described, but that's when
he would watch his audiencekind of fade away and I wonder
if in that natural, because Idon't know, I, we, we've kind of

(55:37):
waxed on this before but theabsolutely almost supernatural
power of storytelling and likein the order to captivate the
human soul, and I I'm wonderingin those moments if just
naturally, where they get thisfrom is just looking into the
eyes and hearts of people andseeing, like, the less that I
say about this terrible thing,the more they scream when they
go to bed.

Ron (55:58):
And the more they like yearn for it, though, also right
like like you were saying whydid you have to watch the horror
films as a kid?
Because there's an allure there.
You have to yes don't threatenme with something terrible,
because I got it right, like youneed to know.
Yes, and probably some of thosestorytellers satisfied that
need for their audiences, right,but it was probably different

(56:19):
every time, the same way likewhen they're adapting your
favorite book.
Oh, how are they going todepict?
Yeah, this creature, thismonster, right?

Doug (56:28):
like I gotta know.
I wonder, because I was usingtales of the crypt at the
beginning of this.
I'm wondering again for thosenot familiar.
He was the one who just openedthe tail.
He was the one who said we thetail.
He was the one who said we'regoing to read a story tonight
about this, and then it hadnothing to do with him for the
rest of the episode.
But to me that was the guy whowas going to get me.
And what's interesting is whenI became an adult and actually

(56:49):
watched tales for the crypt, Iwent oh, he's the storyteller.
So I don't know what I was, soafraid of, and I so I created
all of that terror in my mindover something that didn't even
exist for that purpose.

Don (57:03):
Yeah, and I had.
I remember having the oppositereaction.

Doug (57:06):
Cause he was incredibly silly.

Don (57:08):
He was silly but then, like the like, some of the story and
stories were so uncomfortableto watch, that, like when he
reappeared, to either do thenext segue, like it was like a,
it was a catharsis, like, oh,very much, I don't have to, I
don't have to watch thathorrible thing anymore, it's
just this Muppet.

Doug (57:24):
Yes, he was super silly, that's the thing.
He's very comedic, but also Ithink it's that idea of you know
, kind of the uh.
Yeah, yeah.

Don (57:37):
Well, thank you all talking about scary stuff?
Oh yeah, thought.
So, since we open with Ichabod,do you want to close with
Ichabod?

Doug (57:45):
Want to find out what happens at the end of his story?
Send me with some shivers, donso so.

Don (57:51):
so he winds up being chased on his horse gunpowder by the
headless horseman.
And uh uh, here's how it ends.
Next morning the old horse wasfound without his saddle and
with a bridle under his feet,soberly cropping the grass at
his master's gate.
Ichabod did not make hisappearance at breakfast.

(58:11):
Dinner hour came, but noIchabod.
The boys assembled at theschoolhouse and strolled idly
about the banks of the brook,but no schoolmaster.
Hans van Ripper now began tofeel some uneasiness about the
fate of the poor Ichabod and hissaddle.
An inquiry was set on foot andafter diligent investigation
they came upon his traces In onepart of the road leading to the

(58:32):
church was found the saddletrampled in the dirt, the tracks
of the horse's hooves deeplydented in the road and evidently
at furious speed.
Tracks of the horse's hooves,deeply dented in the road and
evidently at furious speed, weretraced to the bridge beyond
which, on the bank of a broadpart of the brook where the
water ran deep and black, wasfound the hat of the unfortunate
Ichabod and close beside it ashattered pumpkin.

Doug (59:28):
Thank you.