Fair Play Through Time: Sportsmanship from Plato to the Present

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What defines true sportsmanship, and where do we draw the line between cunning strategy and unsportsmanlike behavior? Join us for an intriguing discussion inspired by Ron's eye-opening experiences at the Las Vegas Open, one of the largest wargaming tournaments in the U.S. From the camaraderie and respect shared among traditional sports players to the tactical mind games of competitive war gaming, we unravel the complex threads of sportsmanship. This episode promises to challenge your perceptions, as we unpack how these concepts are taught, understood, and sometimes misunderstood in various competitive environments.

Explore the storied history of war gaming as we trace its evolution from H.G. Wells's innovations to the global phenomenon of Warhammer 40,000, with Ron offering firsthand insights from his tournament journeys. We delve into the mechanics of these games, the impact of major players like Games Workshop, and the intriguing use of war gaming in government simulations. Raise an eyebrow with us as we confront the controversial side of sportsmanship, pondering why figures like John McEnroe and Mike Tyson become cultural icons despite—or perhaps because of—their notorious antics.

Our exploration doesn't stop at the sidelines of sports. Reflect on the ancient Greek ideals of athletic competition and the medieval codes of conduct that echo through modern sportsmanship. Does the pursuit of greatness necessitate abandoning virtues like honor and integrity? Through the lens of legendary athletes such as McEnroe and Michael Jordan, we question the balance between competitive spirit and human decency. Tune in for a thought-provoking journey that scrutinizes the art of competition and the essential humanity that should guide it.

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Episode Transcript

Doug (00:29):
As I live and breathe.
We are here on the Uncanneryagain, welcome, welcome, all I
am Doug.
Here to my right is Ron, hereto my left is I'm Don, and we
have so much to discuss and talkabout.
But before we do that, have Itold you, gentlemen, lately, how
much respect I have for the twoof you?

Ron (00:50):
Why did you?

Doug (00:50):
laugh, oh my gosh.

Don (00:53):
I don't think you've ever said that to me.

Ron (00:54):
Oh my gosh.
No, never once felt respectedby you, doug.

Doug (00:59):
That's why we get along so well, I felt looked down upon
by you.
You really have felt somecondescension from me.
I find that shocking.
It's just funny to say, uh, youhaven't uh um, I feel you
looking up to me honestly.
That's right when I scrapemyself, uh and my my bits of ego

(01:20):
that I try to find before Ienter into these podcast
sessions.
I go.
I hope they they like me as Iwalk in.

Ron (01:26):
I just want to reiterate that tonight and how would you
make your way into our me andDon's group chat?

Doug (01:34):
It was a long uphill battle, but somehow I made it,
and maybe up up mountain reallyis what we're looking at, but
it's nice that you want toingratiate yourself to us this
day.

Ron (01:46):
This is a great way to start the podcast.
Yeah, yeah.

Doug (01:49):
This might be the next hour is just me telling you how
much I like you.
Cool, do we have to do the samefor you?
Sounds it sounds toonarcissistic, so I'm going to
say no.
Looking at Don's face.

Don (02:01):
I didn't come prepared with the list.

Doug (02:03):
It's just going to be Don ripping me apart for wrestling.
This is already too emotionalfor Don.
There may be tears at the endof this one.
What do you want money?
I'm having a hard time.
So, uh, listeners out there, ifyou haven't donated in a while,
just know this is the season todo so.
Um, no, I, uh I bring that upbecause, um, this is an

(02:29):
interesting, this is going to beI'm hoping this is going to be
an interesting podcast.
Uh, don and I have beenengaging in a lot of
conversations about, um, I guesslet's start with respect, but
uh, we've been talking a lotabout, uh, sportsmanship.
Sportsmanship has been somethingthat has kind of come to mind
and it's not that I guess youcould say, ron doesn't believe

(02:49):
in sportsmanship.
Maybe he doesn't, but yeah,I've.

Ron (02:52):
Uh, only applies to people who play sports, and I don't
play sports I think that you'rea very sporting gentleman.

Doug (02:57):
I think that uh uh okay award put me in my place yeah, I
think that.
Uh, a war game or two, yes,okay, sure, sure yeah, I guess
the.

Ron (03:09):
How are we defining sportsmanship?
Is this just the interactionbetween people in any foreign?
Does it need to be acompetitive activity?

Don (03:17):
right, because that would be.
The question is what's courtesyand sportsmanship?

Doug (03:21):
and this is no, I don't want to say exactly now this is
the question that I haveessentially is it is strange to
start thinking about because Ithink that in on a field or in a
competitor, you know, on acourt, I think that maybe a
coach is just going to instantlyassume or teach, you know,

(03:43):
sportsmanship is important.
But I started thinking aboutthe origins of this and then why
we do it and what is consideredsportsmanship and why
sportsmanship in some areasseems to be universally agreed
upon.
Other times, maybe a little bitof it is broken.
I started thinking about trashtalk.
I started thinking about umengagement in matches and play

(04:09):
that are considered dirty, otherones that are considered um
like highly intelligent.

Ron (04:15):
Cunning right.
Yeah, the difference betweenlike a dirty trick and like a.
Oh, that was a cunning trick.

Doug (04:19):
That was pretty sweet, we love it, yeah and um and it
really it it does depend.
Pretty sweet, we love it.
Yeah and um, and it really itdoes depend.
And so, um, I guess I guessopening up is um, yeah, I mean,
has this been something that hascrossed don and I have talked
about it, but maybe I'd throw itto you for a second ron.
Like, have you found yourselfin scenarios that you you've

(04:40):
thought about this as well, or?

Ron (04:42):
a hundred percent.
Um so, uh, I think you alreadyalluded to to my war gaming yes
and I think we probably uh overthe history of this podcast
alluded to our war gamingseveral times yes, uh but yeah,
I play for the first time, onlywas it last year maybe last year
I went to my first war gamingtournament.

Doug (05:01):
Yeah, um, which would be like the most kind of direct
competition I've engaged with ina long time and to be clear you
went to, is it the largestwargaming tournament in, maybe
not the world, but in the unitedstates?

Ron (05:13):
lvo is yeah, the las vegas open, I think, was the largest
40k tournament.
Ah, yeah, yeah, um, uh, whichwould put it in the running for
largest wargaming tournament andcertainly in the united states.

Don (05:24):
Do we need to describe what we mean by a war gaming
tournament and what FloridaGaming is, in case we have some
listeners?
You're right For everybody whojust logged out.

Ron (05:32):
War gaming is a hobby and a tabletop game where you collect
and build an army out ofminiature figurines it dates all
the way back to HG Wells, whichI like to think lends it some
credibility.
But figurines it dates all theway back to HG Wells, which I
like to think lends it somecredibility.
But basically you collectlittle figurines and you put
them on a table and you fight awar game against another player

(05:53):
by moving your pieces across thetable Essentially a very
complex and slow version ofchess, and so people will go to
tournaments to try to figure outwho's the best at different
games.
Probably the most popular wargame in the world right now is a
game called Warhammer 40,000,which is a science fiction
themed war game where youcollect armies of aliens and
space marines and you fight themby rolling dice and moving them

(06:15):
with rulers across a table.

Doug (06:17):
And to further build on that and I don't know.
Ron, I could see you maybe eventaking this for a whole podcast
if we end up going there.
But this is also.
There are branches ofgovernment in several countries
that are dedicated to war gaming, like this idea of actually
playing out real life warscenarios in which people are
across the table in casesomething happens.

(06:39):
Yeah, we need to play this out?

Don (06:41):
Is Wargame an oxymoron or a tautology?

Ron (06:47):
That's a new podcast.

Doug (06:49):
I think we just saved that one, because, oh my, gosh, my
brain is firing.

Ron (06:52):
100% done.
But I don't know if this hasnothing to do with the question
Doug asked me.
I'm worried about getting toofar off our beaten path.

Doug (06:59):
I don't know.
I think you're going to be ableto connect it.
I trust you.

Don (07:04):
I do think, reminding you that Doug didn't care at all
about your beaten path in thelast episode.

Doug (07:09):
Time for me to burn his podcast to the ground.
I like a little chaos.

Ron (07:14):
I think a lot of people okay, the kinds of war games I
play are really justentertainment games.
No one is pretending that thesereplicate real strategies to
any extent or that you can learnfrom them, but there are
definitely.
There's a school of thoughtthat you you can make a war game
that is simulationist enoughthat you can use it to replicate
the decisions of real worldactors and then, based on those

(07:37):
decisions, educate and and adaptyour decisions should a
scenario like that ever occur.
That's certainly uh, and andthe purpose of those games is
not really competition, it'sreally just simulation, right to
just kind of run throughscenarios and playbooks and see
how you might react to, yeah,whether that's a real life
conflict, like a militaryconflict or just like, how would

(07:58):
we react to a, to a, um, anatural disaster situation?
How quickly can we deploylogistics to an area?
Blah, blah, blah.

Don (08:06):
And there's in the games that you're playing.
There's a set of rules or amanual.

Ron (08:10):
There's a set of rules, yeah, a rule book.

Don (08:11):
Is it agreed by convention or there's like an actual ruling
?

Ron (08:14):
So that's the great part is that, yes, there are hard-coded
rules, right, your squad ofspace marines can only move six
inches right when they activate,but there are.
The rulebook can neverencompass all of the minutiae
and tiny scenarios that willoccur over playing hundreds of
hours of these games on likereal 3D spaces, where the board

(08:36):
is always different and thereare different kinds of setups
and different ways people buildand construct their armies.
So, like, the physicality ofthe models is never guaranteed,
how much space do they take upon that board, et cetera.
And so conventions do have toarise, right.
Like, for instance, just take atake a three-dimensional, 25
millimeter tall model, right,and and, uh, place it on a board

(08:59):
and then take a ruler and moveit six inches.
Well, like, where?
Like, how exactly is that?
How do you make that the mostaccurate?
Like, where does the base begin?
Where does it end?

Don (09:10):
Where on?

Ron (09:10):
the ruler?
Do you place it?
Do you put it at the very endof the tape measure?
Does it stop before the tapemeasure?
So conventions have to kind ofarise around very simple
scenarios or situations likethat.

Don (09:20):
And is it purposefully written to be chaotic like that,
where the models are 25millimeters tall but they're
moving six inches?

Ron (09:27):
Dude, I can go so far with this.
A lot of this has to do withconvention, right?
The world's biggest war gamerules publisher is a place
called Games Workshop, andthey've just always used certain
mechanics in their games, justalways used certain mechanics in
their games.
They have always used inchesinstead of centimeters, right,

(09:48):
and which is a pain, uh, formetric countries in europe who
are like don't understand uhinches and wants centimeters
because they would make moresense, etc.
Um, they always use six-sideddice when maybe other you know
uh denominations, no that's notcorrect uh, other kinds of dice
would maybe work their dialectsyeah, yeah, that's right

(10:11):
dialectical dice.
Um is our new podcast, um.
So a lot of it just happens tobe convention and popularity.
Right, there are a lot ofpeople would say.
I would say games workshopmakes some of the worst war
games.
They just happen to make themost popular ones because
they're the largest company inthe space.

Don (10:26):
What a controversial statement you just made so if
you're playing a game and right,so you're encountering a new
board, you said, and the boardsare always physically different
and and you're encountering aplayer, probably you've not
played before it's likely thenthat you could encounter a
situation where someone is, Idon't know, doing an action or
using a strategy that has notbeen imagined before.
That you then have to decide isthis within the rules or is

(10:49):
this within the bounds of what'sreasonable?

Ron (10:51):
Absolutely Right.
This, this kind of comes up,and I think it was just like two
or three years ago at I thinkit might've been Las Vegas open.
Um, they were having the worldchampionship for this game,
warhammer 40 K, and it was downto the last match of the game
with the two top players playingto see who will be the world
champion.
And I don't remember thespecifics entirely, but in this

(11:13):
game you can kind of you know,teleport units onto the board,
and this one player did this ina way that was considered very
dirty, very mean, like verymean-spirited play, but not
technically outside of thelimits of the rules, and he
positioned this model on theboard in such a way that the
opponent could not position hismodels on the part of the board

(11:38):
that he needed to in order tohave a winning chance, and so he
was kind of like just using thephysicality of this very large
model to block out it's likerisk, where you just build up
your armies in australia andthen, yes, at one point you just
burst out exactly right.
He kind of got him in this likekind of hook jab move.
That essentially meant veryearly on in the game the other

(11:58):
guy would not be able to win andthis became like everyone
watching this game was like ohmy god, my God, what a jerk move
, what a dirty, rotten trick.
But again, not really outsideof the letter of the law of the
game.
And everyone was kind oflooking at how would this
opponent react?
And he reacted very well.
He played the game out to itsconclusion, knowing that he
wouldn't really be able to win.
He did not get salty or angryor rude and he did in fact lose

(12:24):
the game.
And a lot of discourse occurredaround this.
And the CEO of is it Riot Gamesthat published League of
Legends, one of the largestvideo games in the world?
The CEO of this video gamedeveloper was watching this game
and he was so impressed withthe opponent's sportsmanship
that he tried to give him ascholarship of like fifty

(12:46):
thousand dollars or something.
And the guy was like that'sinsane, just give it to a
charity, please.
And since then there's kind ofbeen like a sportsmanship award
attached to this tournament,because it was so surprising
that he did keep his cool, like,yeah, people who play war games
, um, are nerds and they don'talways have the best social
emotional skills and it's quitefrequent for people to get very

(13:08):
mad and kind of upset and saltyin these kinds of situations.
But this guy didn't, he wasrewarded.

Don (13:14):
What does this have to do with ancient Greece, ancient
Greece.

Ron (13:22):
Well, what a turn we've taken here.

Doug (13:24):
Let's back this up.
It's interesting because, uh,ron, you brought this up and you
said like, well, where do we gowith this and sportsmanship.
But it's interesting like youinstantly kind of just define
what sportsmanship looks like,or gamesmanship.
I guess we could say, right, uh, in no I think those are.

Ron (13:39):
I do gamesmanship is, is what ability opponent did to
make it.
Yes, that cunning move uhsportsmanship is how the
opponent did to make it thatcunning move.
Sportsmanship is how the victimof the gamesmanship reacted.
Gamesmanship is how you actwithin the game.
Sportsmanship is how you actoutside of the game.
Does that work?
Yeah, that works.

Doug (13:55):
I think that that does, and this is what I find
interesting is, again we're backto the scenario I don't.
Something plays out and then'show did you react in that moment
?
That and how do you describethis person?
Like because we give?
Is it a moral like, like a?
Do they have a higher moralground that they've taken?

(14:16):
Is that what we're going to say?

Ron (14:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So all this started with medescribing my first experience
at a tournament and I'm notsomeone who would.
I would not describe myself asvery good at these kinds of
games.
I enjoy playing them, but Ikind of wanted to test myself
and see how good was I really byplaying a bunch of strangers
and seeing where I would fall inthe tournament ladder Right.
But from the very first game Irealized that what I was most

(14:39):
important, or what I consideredmost important, was giving my
opponent a good game.
Like I could not bring myselfto the point where, like I
basically flubbed my first gamejust because I didn't want to be
too mean with my likemaneuvering and my models and I
wasn't using them veryaggressively just because I
didn't want the guy to like nothave fun.
I was.
I was like.
I was like look, we're here invegas, we're playing with these

(15:01):
stupid toys, like it's nice tomeet, to meet you.

Don (15:04):
I don't want to ruin your day Like.

Ron (15:05):
I was having a hard time being competitive, because I
just wanted to be a goodopponent.

Doug (15:10):
Um, but then what I find interesting is do you think
there was maybe somebody else inthat room who could have looked
at that and said you're notgiving me?

Ron (15:16):
your best competitive game.

Doug (15:18):
And then would also consider that not sportsmanlike.
Yes, a hundred percent.

Ron (15:26):
And I adjusted in the subsequent games to be like no,
no, no.
This is like everyone's here tobe challenged to have.

Doug (15:29):
Yes, like, so I need to play my best to give them that
and uh, I tried to do that inthe remaining games what you
just described is what I amfascinated by, and I'm hoping
that we can get everybodyfascinated with this if we
haven't thought about thisbefore, because that is
incredibly strange to me, thatas human beings we've agreed to
this contract, I guess, butagain, it's not.

(15:50):
It's not something that's everdirectly stated.
Maybe it is to a certain degree, but it I don't.
I'm hoping that by the end ofthis we can maybe talk about
like is that there's theircentral ethic that we can look?

Ron (16:03):
at a golden rule.
A golden rule, yes, is there agolden rule?

Doug (16:07):
is there a principle that we can act by, our set of
principles that we can act by?
And don?
Obviously you just threw itinto ancient greece, don, and
I've been talking about thisbecause right away, oh good, I'm
uh so at this point we're goingto turn ron's mic off yeah,
he's done, he's done.

Ron (16:21):
Yeah, he's absolutely done.

Doug (16:23):
This is my nightmare everybody say bye to ron.
Here we go, uh, this.
So we had talked about likeinstantly I'm going back to
ancient sport and do we go allthe way back to the olympics,
which we've got somedocumentation on?
Um, but then we did theolympics just ended, like a
month ago oh, yes, they did, butI want to talk about ancient

(16:43):
olympia, if you will.
I like this idea of did they?
They did, but I want to talkabout ancient Olympia, if you
will.
I like this idea of.

Ron (16:47):
Did they have skateboarding ?
I don't want to know about itAbsolutely.

Doug (16:51):
Yes, the first 900 that was ever hit was by Histopheles,
predating Tony Hawk by several,several thousand years.

Ron (17:03):
His big trick was moving forward without falling down,
and the stones that were underhis board.

Doug (17:12):
But I okay.
So let me back up for just asecond.

Ron (17:16):
Further than Greece.

Doug (17:18):
No, actually we're jumping forward in time.
I'd actually like to talk aboutwhere this originated from.
So I um, I am, I'm veryinterested in john mackinrow
this this famous olympian, yeah,famous olympian yes, uh, this

(17:39):
tennis player, john mackinrow.
Tell me what the two of youknow of John McEnroe, if
anything.

Ron (17:45):
You can't be serious man, you cannot be serious.

Doug (17:49):
Oh yeah, that's all you need.
That's all you need, folks.
If you've never heard him at1980 Wimbledon, that's our man
acting out after an umpire callI'm sorry, a call that was done
by a player that an umpire waschallenged on and decided to go
with the call.
But yeah, from the two of you,Did he?

Ron (18:08):
like become popular again in the like early 2000s.
I feel like he had a sort ofrenaissance, because I would say
John McEnroe was one of like 10athletes I could name as a kid,
as a teenager, teenager, and Ifollowed sports not at all right
he was like up there with likemichael jordan and wayne gretzky
and okay, he's got three he'sgot three baby.

(18:31):
He's got three.
I love it absolutely.
These are the people I can name, but I knew john and I never
watched tennis.
But I knew about his fieryspirit and I think they started
giving him game shows absolutely.

Doug (18:44):
Uh, yeah, and I I picked him back up because he's he's
pretty big in pickle ball.
Well, I mean, he played apickleball charity event,
whereas again, temper likeflares up and he's kind of
playing into it and he's becomethis kind of personality, as
known as somebody who reallybreaks the mold for his fiery
temper on the court.
And so he's become a character.

Don (19:03):
I I remember him being the uh, the punch line on the court,
and so he's become a character.
I remember him being thepunchline on the late night
shows, like Johnny Carson usedto use him as a punchline.

Doug (19:11):
Right, you know, for any kind of outburst or a similar
thing.
What I find interesting is whenI say tennis.
Okay, ron, I'm gonna use you asas the Guinea pig here.
When we're talking about tennisnot John McEnroe, but like if
you were thinking of a tennisplayer describe them in terms of

(19:33):
temperament and how they wouldplay If you were going as
stereotypical as humanlypossible very silent, very
concentrated, laser focused.

Ron (19:41):
You hear them panting, oh, laser focused.
You hear them panting?
Oh, you hear that, interspersedwith the the ponging of the
tennis ball across the court.
It's very hoity-toity, it'svery english.
Everyone's in a big sunday hat,yeah, watching a ball.
It sucks, it's terrible wow,okay, all right.

Doug (20:01):
Tennis, yeah, and it's funny, even in your grunts, that
you just you provided you wantsome more, yeah.
I mean you really, but youpulled them back.
It wasn't a you know noise.

Ron (20:13):
Oh sure it's more, more violent, more guttural.
It's a hard sport.

Doug (20:19):
But no, I'm commenting on the fact that you, you kind of
pulled it back, because even intheir expression of giving it
their all and putting theirphysicality behind it, I feel
like even that was pulled backto a simple huh.

Ron (20:32):
Reserved.
Yeah, yeah.

Doug (20:34):
Which is probably not how somebody would throw a punch in
a boxing match or something likethat.

Ron (20:37):
No, no, right.
Yeah, it's supposed to be acalm, cool, upper class
competition.

Doug (20:44):
Okay, you're wearing nice clothes.

Ron (20:47):
They're probably not getting scuffed.

Doug (20:48):
Yeah, okay.
What I find interesting is Ilove that John McEnroe was the
guy going into what you justdescribed, this hoity-toity
environment, which incrediblyserious athletic competition,
and has this explosivepersonality that is destroying
that image, and I think thatpeople loved him for it as well,

(21:13):
because it did just that andwhat he is known for is there's
a certain amount ofsportsmanship that he didn't
display in the game that I thinkpeople enjoy not universally.
I do believe that people wereupset by him at Wimbledon, but
one of the things that'sinteresting is seeing his

(21:33):
matches play out.
There were a lot of peoplerooting for him, a lot of people
that just love the fact that hewas so passionate about it, and
I'm interested in that becauseI would instantly compare that
to something like the heartbreakthat I experienced as I was
starting to research and studyboxing and seeing that Iron Mike

(21:54):
Tyson, once named Kid Dynamitefor his unbelievable ability in
the boxing ring, in the boxingring eventually stooped so low
to be a person who would biteoff a piece of Evander
Holyfield's ear during a matchin order to get the upper hand.
Like my, my, my boxing idol ishere trying to go to the lowest

(22:15):
tactics humanly possible, and Ifound it heartbreaking because
it's just like look at whatyou've accomplished and now
we're stooping to the dirtiesttactics that I've ever seen.
And so that is sportsmanshipthat I despise, and so I've been
sitting on this idea of likewhy is some neglect of

(22:36):
sportsmanship?
I don't know.
I like it in my book and thenother times it's not Well.

Don (22:42):
I'm wondering in my book and then other times it's not
well and I'm wondering what.
You're ascribing some, um, somerationale behind the behavior
that I, I don't know that wehave evidence for.
So, in the case of mike tysonright, what you said was that he
, he, did the, the, the.
I'm assuming there's a ruleagainst biting there, sure is so

(23:03):
he broke the rule to gain theupper hand.
I guess the question aboutsportsmanship with John McEnroe
is a lot of his arguments withthe umpires had to do with a
disagreement about theenforcement of the rules, so not
that he was trying to unfairlygain an upper hand, but that he
felt that a judgment had beenmade unfairly against him in

(23:23):
violation of the rules.
So there's a sportsmanshipquestion there, because one is I
want you to apply the rules theway they're in the book and the
other one is I'm going to biteyour ear.

Doug (23:34):
Yes.

Ron (23:37):
Which is very much cooler than the other.

Doug (23:42):
Absolutely, and I mean skipping ahead a little bit.
I think that this is ultimatelylike I think that this is where
it's at is I think that I cangive him some credit because
he's going after an enforcer ofthe rules, a referee, an umpire,
you're right somebody who'slegislating the game versus
somebody who is acting againstthe athlete, right, and I think

(24:03):
that that's where it is.
But what's interesting is is intennis they're given the call
you get to decide if you're out.
So it's kind of indirect of.
I disagree.
I don't think that is that wesaw the chalk fly up and loses
it.
And and John would also goafter members of the audience.
He's caught after crying babiesin the audience.
He's gone after pigeons on theroof and saying you need to take

(24:24):
care of that before we continuethis match.
He's gone after people in theaudience for being too loud and
saying like you need to leave.
You don't know how to conductyourself in a tennis court.
I mean, he's really just rippedpeople apart for this and some
people just despise thatbehavior because tennis is
tennis and but don't do that hashe ever turned his ire against

(24:51):
the opponent?
I don't.
So from everything that I'veseen, I have not watched every
one of John McEnroe's matches.
Forgive me audience, becausethere's at least one tennis
scholar out there.
That's like poorly research.
And that's absolutely what thetennis scholar would sound like,
yes, I just said I think it'sbecause I took the hoity toity
from Ron and I just instantlyput that in.

(25:12):
Um and so I'm not a hundredpercent, but generally the major
clips that I've I've seen inthe matches that I've watched,
of his big matches at Wimbledon,uh, Davis cup, us open, all of
these Wimbledon, Davis Cup, USOpen, all of these it seems that
he's directing it at officials.

Ron (25:27):
Because that matters to me.
I think that's an importantpart of the formula because, to
me when you say someone'sarguing with the, the ref, the
umpire, yeah, I'm like.
Yeah, that's why they're there.

Don (25:38):
Like, like they're scum yeah arguing with the umpire is
not part of the game yeah, yeah,yeah yeah says the, the only
one of the three of us who'sever been an umpire to me it's
the same as like a smashingjilting the pinball table right
like uh.
Like I say but that well, Imean.
But then you're trying to getan unfair advantage, like you're

(26:00):
changing the gravity of themachine in order to but I think,
oh, but I think.

Ron (26:05):
I think that's part of what makes pinball cool.
Like the whole thing is anobject.
Utilize the entire object.
I think that's fun.

Doug (26:14):
I'm going to here's my tangent.
Now we object.
I think that, yeah, that's fun.
I'm going to here's my tangentnow we're just going to nuke it.
But yeah, my, my father is like, if there was one thing that
I'm going to give him absolutepinball wizard, like that is,
that's his sport and is he a?
jilter.
Yeah, to see, truthfully, likeme, seeing him as a kid, like
when I'm seven or eight, some ofmy earliest memories just

(26:37):
watching the way that he wouldplay pinball.
His hips were always on themachine and it was he would move
the table just slightly and itwas a part of the game, like
learning how much you could movethe pin to get it to respond
the way that you did.
And we're talking my dad, mydad.
Some of his most heroic momentswere having like 20 to 30 free

(26:57):
games stored on the machine andlooking at a kid and be like go
ahead and play, there's about 30games on there and watching the
kid's face like light up oflike.
Really, that was like.

Ron (27:05):
I mean, just as a kid.
That is cool, is it not?

Doug (27:08):
But then, somebody comes over and like really, you move
around the machine.
It's like if the man knows justhow much to not tilt the
machine and lose his credit.
Incredible finesse, that skillthere, right.

Ron (27:19):
Absolutely 100%.

Doug (27:20):
But it's just outside of the realms because it gives you
the parameters for anybody thatdoesn't know pinball.
You can push the machine towhere it will say tilt at the
top of the screen and you loseyour ball immediately.
He knows just how much to pushit.
Are you kidding?

Ron (27:33):
me, and that's got to be different on every machine.

Doug (27:42):
But, is that a rule, or is that just the mechanics of the
way?

Don (27:43):
the tilt mechanism in the machine is built it is because
the reason that the machineshave a tilt mechanism is so that
you don't tilt it.
Sure, you're saying that itthat you're not supposed to tilt
it.
But if you can do it justenough that you don't trigger
the the, the mechanism that'sdesigned to prevent you from
doing that then it's okay.
So that's like saying, like if Ihit the, I hit the foul ball
down the line and the umpiredoesn't know where the line is,

(28:04):
or I'm just stepping over it,that it's okay as long as I
don't get called.

Doug (28:08):
Yes and I, but I.
Is that not how John isthinking about, about it, is you
?
Clearly don't?
So I need to step in for this,because I'm the master of tennis
.

Don (28:23):
And then that becomes this whole other conversation, but
John never argued that that theball was.
His argument was you made thecall incorrectly, not I got away
with something or the opponentgot away with something that you
didn't see.
It was always.
You made a call and that wasthe wrong call, right right.

Ron (28:37):
So that's the difference.
Yes, yes, I don't understandthat difference, I'm sorry.
So he is saying you called thatthe ball was in and I think the
ball was out.
How is that not getting awaywith something?

Don (28:47):
Because the rule is that you have to call where the ball
actually lands.
So he's saying you saw the factof it wrong, not I did
something wrong and you and youmissed it.
Right, the tilt mechanism.
If it doesn't trigger, I ambreaking the rule by tilting the
machine.
It just I haven't done it tothe extent that the mechanism
triggers correct that to me isthe same as an umpire not seeing

(29:08):
that a player's foot is out ofbounds yeah, and the player not
saying well, yeah, I was out ofbounds, right?

Doug (29:13):
yeah no, that does make make sense.
It's definitely different there.
So okay, we just addressed somuch.
Let's go back to 40K.

Ron (29:25):
You can be Tyranids, you can be Necrons.
But one of them is moresportsmanlike, that's true,
though there are armies that areconsidered more sporting
because they are less cheesy orconsidered overpowered or less
fun to play against.

Don (29:42):
So the armies that carry the most cheese are more sporty.

Doug (29:45):
Yes, so the.

Don (29:48):
Parmesians are no, no, no.

Ron (29:53):
There is a race and fantasy .
Please don't call themParmesians.

Doug (30:01):
There is a race and fantasy that is all rats, so it
does work, um, so let's now,let's go back.
Let's go back to ancient greecehere.
So don you and I talked aboutthis a bit because I was looking
for information going.
We have these ceremonies inwhich you have wrestling, you
have discus throwing, javelin,pancreation, which was boxing

(30:24):
and wrestling combined, and youhave these ceremonies in which,
for the intents and purposes ofmy research to be a Greek
competitor, a way that you areshowing that you are Greek to
your core is how you participatein this, in these games, and
where I was running into a wallis it wasn't telling me anything

(30:44):
about what sportsmanship waslike in these games.
It was just honorable toparticipate because you showed
your culture in the way that youparticipate in this game
through your effort, throughyour performance and through you
know your legacy, and the crowdthat is watching this is also

(31:04):
engaging in this.
But Don you brought up someinteresting points when we had
talked about this, of the ritualof even starting?
The games and dedication of thegods.
Would you elaborate?

Don (31:13):
Yeah, Cause the when you were called to an Olympiad, then
before the games began, therewas a.
It was a religious ritual infront of the statue of Zeus
where all of the athletes tookan oath, and we don't have the
exact wording of the oath.
We've got writers who havewritten about what the contents
of it were, but the athleteswere were in front of their
their idol, in front of theirgods, swearing that they had

(31:35):
followed the rules of trainingup to that point and that during
the games they would follow therules, basically promising not
to cheat, taking an oath ofsportsmanship of a kind and,
interestingly, not only theathletes made that oath, but the
judges made a similar oath thatthey would also apply the rules
and follow the rules.

Doug (31:52):
Yes, and I think about um, about um.
For any uh listeners that arenot familiar, I'm going to use
pancreation as the example um,that is, a lot of these matches
ended in death, like it was.
We are fighting until there isone competitor who is dead, and
I think about that.
If, like, what kind of an oathyou're making, uh, ending a

(32:12):
match with somebody's life beingover, and I think the stakes
are so much higher in lookingthat a competitor would be
willing to give their lives forsomething like that, which is
not something that we see withinsport.
But theoretically, there's alsosomething to be talked about
within sportsmanship and, ron,this is going to connect right

(32:34):
with your war gaming idea.
Another thing to discuss is theidea of sport also emulating war
to a certain degree, the ideaof two competing sides and
engaging in athleticism, kind oflike closely mirroring battle
or, in the case of pancreationor wrestling like it is battle,

(32:55):
of like closely mirroring battleor, in the case of pancreation
or wrestling like it is battle.
Is there something innate inthat too, that knowing that
you're engaging in somethingwhere there's a clear winner and
loser, and that maybe we ashuman beings need something like
sportsmanship, because if we'regoing to engage in something
which is this is competition,which that will be a winner and
loser in the case of pancreation, sometimes death or I will

(33:18):
leave here defeated, you willleave here victorious.
Do we naturally just have thisas human beings?
Because, yes, I give my oath tothe gods, but maybe there's
something underneath all of thisto say.
I need this because if we'regoing to engage in something
like this publicly and we'regoing to declare this, we need
something like this.
That's not just here's the setof rules.

(33:38):
Manipulate it to the way thatyou can, but if you're going to
show your sport, or thesimulated combat that's
happening, or real combat that'shappening, there needs to be a
certain amount of sportsmanship,because that's also part of
being a human.

Ron (33:54):
Yes, I no.

Doug (33:56):
I understand also part of being a human.

Ron (33:58):
Yes, I no, I understand I understand what you're saying
and I you're saying you'retrying to create the dichotomy
right like why do peopleparticipate in sport?

Doug (34:08):
is it to?

Ron (34:09):
show character, or is it to best?
Their competitor right and and,and.
I kind of see that dichotomyexists in wargaming to the point
where they kind of like peoplein the community, will sort of
define what kind of a playerthey are.
You're either a casual playeror, like, a tournament player,
and it is expected that if youare a tournament player, you're

(34:32):
not prioritizing the gameplayexperience of your opponent, you
are prioritizing your abilityto, to, to win right victory is
the highest aim, and so a lot ofpeople are like I don't want to
play tournament players becausethey're so mean.
They'll make me feel bad.
They're gonna do crazy stuffthat seems almost like cheating
just to get that victory rightand maybe even have a bad

(34:53):
attitude, right they'reconsidered like sometimes
villainized as like bad people.
Right Whereas a casual gamerjust wants to show up, wants to
hang out with their friends,wants to roll some dice.
Maybe they win, maybe they lose, whatever.

Doug (35:04):
Right yeah.

Ron (35:05):
And so it's become this thing where it's like a casual
player is about character,almost right, it's about taking
that oath to the gods.
It's about taking that oath tothe game.
Hey, we're all just here toplay a weird little game and
exult in our hobby, and thetournament player is is the
warrior right?
They're there to win at allcosts.
Um, I do think, like we havethat, like why did we engage

(35:25):
with a in a competitive game atall if we don't want to win,
right?

Doug (35:29):
like right I don't.

Ron (35:30):
I don't want to throw a game right, um, but I also don't
want to achieve victory, um, bya margin that would call into
question my character or callinto question, I guess, my
ability to play the game right.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like, um, there's thisphenomenon of like teaching a
game to someone right, like, howdo you, how do you, teach
basketball to a to a to your?

(35:53):
you know young child, right, aseven-year-old or something?
How do you teach baseball?
How do you teach a war game?
Do you, you know?
But think about like, when yourparent maybe was playing a
video game with you orintroducing you to something,
right, do you immediately crushthem and stomp them so that they
can learn like, so you cansharpen that blade.

Don (36:12):
That is definitely how my grandfather played gin rummy.

Ron (36:14):
Right.

Don (36:16):
Or do you?

Ron (36:17):
sort of hold their hand and do you give them a couple hands
, do you let them win a few sothey can feel that exuberance of
victory and kind of hook them alittle bit.
And I can actually think of oneinstance when I was playing a
war game where I was a bad sport.
I feel bad about this.
We were playing a game it wassort of a home tournament

(36:42):
situation, so like victorymattered right, I wanted to do
well for my team and I wasplaying against my friend who
was newer to the game, did notunderstand the game as well as I
did, and at one point he wasabout to make a move that would
have been really beneficial tome but really dumb for him to
make, like he just didn't see abetter path.
And I was bummed because mybrother, zach, who was on this
guy's team, said, hey, youprobably shouldn't do that.

(37:03):
And I was like Zach, shut up,just between me and him.

Doug (37:09):
Oh, okay.

Ron (37:10):
But, but, but I shouldn't have right, I should.
I think it was fine for Zach toeducate this guy and being like
hey, look, there's a veryobvious better move that you
should make here.
In some ways I see Zacheducating that guy and if I was
so good at the game I would havehad an answer to that optimal
move that my friend had made andI was kind of.

(37:33):
Part of me was like I want himto make this mistake so it'll be
easier for me to win.
And I don't I don't know ifthat's I feel bad for lashing
out because I I think a moresporting ron would have said yes
, actually you should make thismove, and this will be a more
even fight, or challenge orsomething.

Doug (37:51):
But what I find fascinating about what you just
said is there's also a part ofyour sportsmanship that was
violated by the fact that youare playing him.

Ron (38:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and so there is another part of you.
I think that's the excuse Ilanded on.
Sure, but that so.

Doug (38:11):
But that's what's interesting to me is there is
some kind of contract within youof like I am able to best this
person in this way.
We are engaged in this sport,and so what do we do with that?
And I think about this, likewith coaching, for example,
hearing from the sidelinesyou're going to this move next
and then going from there, andthen it becomes like there's

(38:34):
another meta level tosportsmanship of like coaches
calling things out on a court ora mat, that there's even people
that are coaching against eachother, and that's like a whole
nother level.
That's to this, and so I findit interesting that one side of
you is like well, this is theway that the game should be
played.
But deep down, you also had youand me are playing this game
right.

Ron (38:52):
Not.

Doug (38:53):
Zach, freaking Zach, showing up trying to be in here
with us too.
So, um, can we explore thisidea of the hoity-toity, uh,
tennis realm to also kind ofstart to unpack this a little
bit right?

Ron (39:08):
so your central question is why do I love it when john
mackinrow seems to have suchpoor sportsmanship?
Is that what you're saying, Isuppose?

Doug (39:16):
and, and maybe to debate does he have poor sportsmanship?
Because maybe he doesn't, isanother thing here too.

Ron (39:24):
So, yeah, my first thought is that like it's fun to watch
John McEnroe because, yeah,there's like a class thing here.
Like I said, I don't care abouttennis, it's way too quiet and
it's just a ball going back andforth and I don't understand it
maybe.
But I can see angry man on TVyelling at those people and, you
know, telling some rich personthat they're too loud.
That's pretty fun, that's kindof funny.

(39:45):
So to me as a, as a, as amember of the lower classes, as
a dirt bag, I'm.
I can see.
That makes it entertaining tome this thing that was not
accessible to me, right.

Doug (40:04):
Maybe because I'm some spectacle to a degree.
It's carnival, yeah.
It's inverting the social order, yeah.
And to go back to the respect,of this beginning of this
episode.

Don (40:08):
I just want to say, ron, I don't consider you a dirtbag I
very much, oh, thank you,absolute contributor to this
guy's really, he's really.
He's gonna ask you to borrowmoney.

Ron (40:14):
He's gonna ask us something by the end of this.

Doug (40:15):
I just know it another sport being played borrowing
money so, um, in the researchthat I did on the origins of the
sport, um, we're seeing thatthe origins of what is now
tennis there, there was a gamepre the tennis we know, which

(40:37):
was called court tennis and had,or uh, originated in medieval
france.
Um, do you know what kingabsolutely loved it and brought
it over louis?

Don (40:48):
well that's a good guess.
There's like 84 to choose fromone of them.

Doug (40:54):
Louis did it.
The big one, our man who lovedit the most and had a court
built for him specifically, wasHenry VIII.

Ron (41:08):
What oh?

Doug (41:09):
yeah, obsessed, obsessed.
Indeed, I was this close, louisHenry, you do what you do.
What I find interesting is thestyle of tennis that they played
.
It differs very much fromtennis that we know now.
The name for this type oftennis court tennis, is

(41:29):
essentially what it's called,but is also referred to as real
tennis.
Oh yes, and that alone, justthe title.
This is real tennis.
That alone, just the title.
This is real tennis.
So I mean that, going back toyour idea of the ideas you have
in the class that's involved init, that really speaks to what
it was.
It was for the elites and itwas played by the elites and the

(41:52):
court.
That was something that wasthere.
It had areas that you startedin, so there were multiple lines
on the court of how you were toadvance.
It looked very positional,similar to a militaristic.
There were shots that you couldhit different parts of the
court.
So this wasn't just keep theball in the court or try to
volley and serve so it doublebounces or gets out.
It was like you could maketrick shots into certain areas

(42:16):
and that would give you acertain amount of points.
You could bounce it off thewalls.
You could bounce it off thewalls.
You can bounce it off the walls, very similar to like a
squasher it squashes the onethat has racquetball.
Racquetball, um and um.
I found it interesting becauseit was so based and you had to
be um, you, you probably had tobe one of the elites to play it,
um, and that point.

(42:36):
And that got me thinking alittle bit about who is playing
this.
Well, don, is there not a veryfamous set of orderly conduct
that is going on in the medievalera for a certain class and
group of people, in which theyneeded to conduct themselves in
a certain way, a code of ethics?

Don (42:58):
Yeah, of course there was.
There's lots of them.

Ron (43:00):
Oh, these are the famous tennis laws you're talking about
?
Ah, the laws of tennis.

Doug (43:04):
According to the laws of tennis, I will not engage you in
this conversation.
I'm thinking about knightsright now.
I'm thinking about knights.

Don (43:12):
Yeah, you're trying to ask me about chivalry yeah.
Absolutely yes.

Ron (43:17):
Do knights love tennis.

Don (43:18):
I'm wondering absolutely, yeah, yes, the knights love
tennis.
I'm wondering, the knightspredate tennis?
Uh, a little bit, but they didhave.
They did have a firm sense ofrules and uh and things that uh,
uh, governed their, theirbehavior, behavior not only in
sport but also in martial combat, like there's um amorous combat
.

Ron (43:37):
That's true in courtly love there absolutely was a set of
rules there too.

Don (43:42):
Uh, those ones were not written down as frequently
though, but uh, um, but, yeah,absolutely, um.
Going back to the 14th century,we've got lots of uh, these
heroic uh songs that are writtenabout, uh, the Knights that
that give the rules of combatliterally combat, yeah, um, but
they would apply those samerules in tournaments, things
like that once your lance breaksyou, you have to throw it down

(44:05):
and you have to use your sword,and in tournaments that you
would use the flat edge of theirsword rather than the biting
edge of their sword, and thingslike that.
And that was all based in this,this code of conduct that they
self enforced but was definitelycodified.
That the Knights that theyself-enforced but was definitely
codified, uh, that the knightsthat they all agreed to behave a

(44:25):
certain way and if you violatedthat oath, you faced all kinds
of social punishment and uh andostracization but isn't that?

Ron (44:34):
my understanding has always been that that's because they
were like aristocrats, right,they were landed gentry and they
didn't want to die, right?
Like aren't these rules aboutmaking combat less lethal
towards knights?

Don (44:46):
In tournament, but they carried over into actual martial
battle.

Ron (44:49):
Right, you still had to fight honorably when you were on
the field of battle, but youalso weren't supposed to kill a
knight, right, you're supposedto take them captive and ransom
them.

Don (44:57):
But that was also mercenary .
I mean, that was because itgets you money.
It's not necessarily because Imean yes, you're right, the rule
is that that's the honorablething to do, but it also was
beneficial to you, because thenyou would get the ransom money
Right.

Ron (45:10):
It needs to have like an actual, a real world benefit for
the non-knight right to makethem play by that.

Don (45:17):
There's actually a couple of stories about like.
So there's a squire in the 14thcentury, in 1316 in Norfolk,
named Thomas Wells, who entereda tournament and was winning,
and they discovered that he wasnot a nobleman.

(45:37):
He was actually just a serf.
It's a knight's tale.
Uh, he was actually just a surf.
It's night's tale.
Uh, it is the night, yeah and uh, and because of that, uh, they,
um, they stripped him, likeliterally stripped him, uh, in
front of everybody, threw him inthe river, Um, and then uh
codified the rule that you couldnot enter the tournament unless
you were of noble birth.

(45:58):
So it had been a rule, it justwasn't codified as such, Um and
uh and so so that was appliedthat way.
But then there's another story,also out of the 14th century,
of an archer who did the samething.
He was a peasant, who RobinHood, who I was hoping you'd say
thank you.
Is this about the Fox?
Falsified his uh his nobilityin order to enter the tournament

(46:21):
and bested everybody, and thenthey discovered that he was not
noble.
But then they hired him.
They say he was the best archer, so the Lord hired him, and
then he was elevated to theright status.
So in the one case, you know,bringing up sportsmanship,
likemanship, like yes, he wasviolating the rule, because the
rule said you had to be of acertain birth, but he was

(46:42):
besting everybody and ratherthan just saying well,
congratulations, they said ohwell, you lose because you
weren't of the right, uh, socialclass, yep, but in the other,
in the other instance, they'relike oh well, we could use you.

Doug (46:53):
So we'll just say it's okay this time and I wonder,
because I don't know if therewould be any descriptions of the
crowd, uh, during these games.
Uh, sure, but influence, butyeah, I mean, think about that
right, like if you see, and Ithink about, like, when is it
revealed that you know he's not,you know this nobleman because,
again.
I think that we naturally lovean underdog right um I wonder

(47:17):
about this.
Of like you know what thatentails.
Of like, what a great story ofthis person who doesn't have
nobility but then just does sogreat in in his prowess, and I
think that that's another hugepart of this, that that would be
too much of a trail to go on.
But yeah, you see that it'slike he is hired for his ability
of like.
Congratulations, you didsomething that's amazing.

(47:38):
Yes, we will absolutely do that.
We will absolutely induct youversus this other guy, poor guy
who's been thrown in the river.

Don (47:46):
So yeah, that's there, but it raises, like, so, in addition
to that instance, right, where,like there, the rules seem to
be flexible if it serves theneed of the higher ups, right,
we have this, the question thatyou, you all, have brought up in
terms of your war game thatyou're playing in Las Vegas.
But that same idea of what'sthe line between cunning and

(48:07):
cheating?
Yes, and I've got stories ofknights doing the same.
So, stories of knights who putlead in their lance, ah, yep,
and when they're caught theyhave to burn all the equipment
and they get disqualified.
Um, but the, the most famousone that I think raises the, the
ethical issue that you'reraising, doug, is um, it's

(48:29):
called the mirror shield case.
It happens in 1380.
Um, and it's a German knight.
Um, and uh, um, he, he polisheshis shield to like a
mirror-like finish, blinding hisopponent.
Yeah, and at first.
So he wins the first time, andthe knight that he wins against

(48:49):
says, oh, like the sun was in myeyes.

Doug (48:51):
Like he doesn't blame the knight exactly, yeah yeah.

Don (48:54):
But then the second knight says, oh yeah, I lost, but it
was because of his shield.
And then, like so, at first thethe crowd accepts it, that he's
like, this is a, um, a cleverthing that he has done.
Like it's not against the rules.
There's no rule against it.
He's, uh, he's found a way todefeat his opponents, so it's

(49:15):
all good.
But by the time he beats histhird night now they've decided
that it's cheating yeah and theychange the rule and they say
you can't do that.
They did the same thing in othercases, but with knights started
putting like studs on theirarmor, right, like spikes, yeah,
and again it's just decorative.
But then people start to losebecause of it.

(49:35):
And then all of a sudden thatbecomes cheating and they start
doing equipment inspectionsahead of time, so like the rule
book keeps getting bigger.
But then again, what's the linebetween innovation and and
cheating?
Like I imagine that at somepoint basketball didn't have a
rule against people wearingstilts or something you know
like, but that would clearlychange the game and not make it

(49:57):
so like there is a rule now,like not specifically against
stilts, but it says you can'tartificially make yourself
taller.
Um, but uh, like, what's thatline?
And how much of that is iscunning, and and how much of
that is trying to violatesportsmanship.

Ron (50:12):
There's a, there's a level where, uh, it occurs and you can
kind of tolerate it, right,you're like, okay, that was one
instance that's gonna happen.
That's life you can't controlfor every you know weird
instance.
Uh, but once, once that becomesa pattern, once people start
clocking, right, like, hey,that's what I gotta do, and you,
you feel somehow that that isum antagonistic to the core or

(50:35):
intention of the game or thesport.
Then you're like whoa, whoa, ifwe don't stamp this out in some
way, this is going tocompletely shift the game from
the sport.
Then you're like whoa, whoa,whoa, if we don't stamp this out
in some way, this is going tocompletely shift the game from
the thing we like to somethingnew, something we won't like.

Doug (50:46):
Right, but what's interesting to me about you
bringing that up is that was howpeople were, at least what was
being published about JohnMcEnroe when he's coming onto
the scene in the 70s people werefeeling that way at the time
being published about JohnMcEnroe when he's coming onto
the scene in the seventies um,people were feeling that way at
the time.

Ron (51:03):
Right, he's going to turn it into.
He's going to turn this into asport for dirt bags.

Doug (51:07):
right, absolutely, he's going to happy Gilmore this
thing Exactly, I mean, andthat's, but then that didn't
happen also, so there's a fewthings to note.
Um, so, so there's a few thingsto note.
Um, that happened.
So we, we were just on courtlytennis right Real tennis and um

(51:32):
in the late 1800s.
uh, walter Wingfield, I love thealliteration there.
Uh, Walter Wingfield brings inthis uh, idea of lawn tennis.
We've got a lot of games.
Croquet is very popular at thetime too, and tennis was
actually the sport that it'slike.
Croquet is a thing of the past.
Look at these folks that arethrowing this ball around the
lawn.
This is some wild stuff.
And so tennis starts becomingmuch more popular, and I think

(51:53):
it's documented.
He was bringing that to groupsof people that, like some of the
wealthy, could afford thisbecause they would have the lawn
space to be able to play it,and it becomes incredibly
popular at the time of just buya box set and you can start to
go and play.
England really picks this up.
There is a whole tradition thatI won't be able to explore in
this podcast about Wimbledon,which is the most prestigious of

(52:16):
all tennis competitions,literally to the point that
royalty is.
I mean you're, you're havingseats.
I associate like the queen.
Yeah, yeah, you are.
You're bowing before your matchand fresh cut grass lawn,
you've got everybody who's thereand there's a certain amount of
decorum that you need todisplay if you're invited.

(52:36):
And this was an invite onlytournament.
This was changed in the sixtieswhen open play becomes a thing
where an amateur has theopportunity to play their way
into the tops of the ranks, andthis is what opens the doors for
not only unionized tennis,which comes in in the seventies
Um, but also people like JohnMcEnroe who are playing in clubs
that are just natural athletesthat become like some of the

(52:58):
greatest people in the world.
In 1972, the men unionize at thetime and they actually boycott
Wimbledon for not allowingplayers to choose what
tournaments they play in,because they kind of had a
monopolized.
If you're going to play in this, we need to not see you in
these tournaments, because wewant you to play in Wimbledon,

(53:18):
kind of as a um, a staple ofthis is going to be a bigger
event for us.
73, the women unionize um,which leads to a match.
Are you all?
Have you ever heard the names?
Uh, billy jean king or bobbyriggs in the 70s?
Yeah, there was a big battle ofsexes that happened, in which,
in which, uh, billy jean kingbeats bobby riggs, uh, which was

(53:40):
also quite the spectaclebecause he was very notoriously
chauvinistic in his approach.
That's awesome, yeah, and shejust destroyed him and, um, this
is huge uh for for thespectacle of tennis, but again,
it's violate.
It's like we don't need this tobecome this spectacle of like,

(54:00):
beat up the woman hating guy.
But so many people are broughtinto tennis because of this, and
I think about it's 1977, Ibelieve, when John plays his
first big tennis matches, theadvents of kind of this punk
rock era and generation.
It's the time where this isgonna happen.
And then it's called, you know,culminating with these late

(54:22):
seventies, early eighties gamesin which he's such a personality
, and so this change happens, um, where I think people are also
ready for it, of like, here'sthis old, you know, kind of
institution that is for, as Ronstarted at the beginning of this
, this hoity toity idea oftennis, and here's this new, new
vibe that's come in, in whichmedia, of course, is just
jumping on because they're like,okay, now we have so much to

(54:45):
publish about this, but I thinkpeople loved it too, and I think
that that's the reason, deron,you knew one of these names it's
probably the reason the xflfailed, destroyed by big nfl and
the hoity-toity NFL.

Ron (54:58):
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.

Doug (55:01):
But getting into.
Yeah, I wonder if that playsinto of like of the times and
sportsmanship as well.

Don (55:08):
Well, and I wonder about the license that the public
gives to professional athletesbecause of the entertainment
value of the behavior as opposedto the virtue of the behavior
as opposed to the the virtue ofthe behavior, um, and and the.
What we started, I guess wedidn't start with, but you know,

(55:28):
like 20 minutes in we finallygot to the, um, the Olympics,
the, the ancient Greek Olympics,and that's the first time that,
uh, that I can find there's acodified like oath not to cheat,
right, but it must have existedprior to that, but Plato writes
about.
So, halfway through the,Olympics that athletic training

(55:52):
is not just about improving thebody but also about improving
the mind.
And so there's this idea thatyou train to be an athlete and
you exercise as an athlete, notjust because it's physical
exercise but because it's also aopportunity to develop your
mind's virtue.
Um, and that, like you pointedout then, doug was, was also

(56:12):
codified by the medieval Knights.
It's the same idea that that,yes, it's a physical activity,
but the main purpose is not justphysical prowess but also honor
and virtue.
The 1375 on nightly virtuessays victory must come from the
union of body, mind and spirit.
Right.

(56:33):
But then we look at the NFL.
We look at, you know, how manyprofessional players are accused
of domestic violence, drunkenbehavior, like nothing that I
would call virtuous behavior,nothing that looks to be like,
you know, an elevation of themind and spirit.
But they do well on the field,right, they are physically able

(56:53):
to do the task that is putbefore them, which is to move
the ball down the field, and sowe like to watch them play the
game.
But I don't like their behavioroff the field, and I, and I'm
wondering if we've lost that, atleast in the professional realm
, that connection between mind,body and spirit, that that when
we go watch a little league game, like we expect our children to

(57:14):
be learning those things Cause,if, if you're six year old, you
know playing tee ball, startyelling at the umpire the way
John McEnroe does, we woulddefinitely say don't do that,
that's bad sportsmanship.
But then we'll turn on the TVand laugh at you know a
professional player doing thesame thing.

Ron (57:32):
I think I would posit that that has always been an ideal,
but never the reality, right.
It's not just like modernfootball or modern athletes are,
but never the reality, right.
It's not just like modernfootball or modern athletes are
rude and not cool, right, butlike.
We only need to turn to ourChaucer to find that the Knights
also were not always virtuousright and did not always take

(57:53):
their code that seriously right?
I wonder if this is an ideal weplace on these people, because
we recognize they have powerRight Like they have a power to
whether that is power over anaudience, over the masses, over
the people, or if it's justliteral, physical power, that

(58:14):
the power invested to commitviolent acts, or we want to put
a code on that, like you say,right.
In some way, so that they areusing that power for the common
good, or at least wisely, orthat there's a check on it in
some way, right?

Doug (58:31):
And is it the most visceral display that we have?
Like athleticism is such avisceral display of power, you
know, in the way that, like anintellectual is gonna need to
draw out a speech or a debate,or In the way that an
intellectual Is going to need todraw out a speech or a debate,
or write a book that you'regoing to need to read and
dissect, maybe, or an artist isgoing to give you a piece of
work that you need to kind ofchew on.

(58:52):
I need to watch one point, tosee one magnificent play,
whatever it is, and I'minstantly captivated by the
artist.
And I think I instantlycaptivated by the artist and I
think, I think, that we, finally, I think we're doing it.
I think, gentlemen, I think,that we're getting to.
Where this is is, as you said,don, it is this unification of
mind, body and spirit.
And when you see an athletewho's be able to physically do

(59:14):
these things and I'm going touse this, use John as the
example is he is not.
I don't believe that he isyelling at the umpire to
necessarily make it intospectacle, because it didn't
seem from interviews or anythingthat he was doing that his idea
was.
I'm going to be pretty good attennis, but what I'm really

(59:36):
excited about is being apersonality on a game show later
in life.
I think I've got, can't wait tobe featured as a as a guest, a
guest spot on a talk show, right, I think that John McEnroe
cared so much about his art thathe was willing to sacrifice the
reputation.

Don (59:56):
His sense of righteous indignation was powerful and
that was, and that's that's, youknow.
One of the questions I askedearlier was it wasn't that he
was arguing to to try to get anunfair advantage.
His skill was his primary,correct reason that he was
playing in wimbledon, notbecause he was an arguer yeah,
um and uh, and that, I think,does make a difference.

(01:00:18):
Um but uh, but yeah.

Ron (01:00:21):
Do you guys did you?
Did you guys ever watch thelast dance?
Do you remember thisdocumentary about the Chicago
bulls and the Jordan bulls andthe nineties and their, their
last, uh?

Doug (01:00:30):
series, the only the like famous clips that have come from
that since, and it's been on mywatch list for forever because
I've just heard so many greatthings.

Ron (01:00:38):
I've loved watching it only because I remember being a kid
loving not never watchingbasketball, but loving watching
Michael Jordan, of course,because he was just doing, like
you said, insane stuff.
You don't have to know anythingto see him on the court and
suddenly be enthralled, right?
But the fun part about thatdocumentary is realizing for the
first time what a completesociopath Michael Jordan is.

(01:01:02):
He just like, yeah, loved.
In order to be the, the, theamazing human being he was, he
had to laser focus on that thingat the expense of all other
things in order to be thatspectacle for us right yeah it
seems like that's part of johnmcgrone doesn't care if we care
that he's being sporting.
He wants to be the best tennisplayer, right.

Doug (01:01:22):
And there's art in that.
You know, there's art in that100%.

Ron (01:01:26):
There's art.
In what Art?
In his performance?
Or art in his completedismissal of sportsmanship?
Because, I agree, if someone isdoing something phenomenal
enough, rules change right.
We rewrite the rules for thembecause we don't want to Kurt
Vonnegut them.

Doug (01:01:46):
We don't want a Harrison Bergeron.
Their ability to be phenomenal.
Maybe art in.
I guess what I was thinking ofis like in the sociopathic
behavior, in the way that VanGogh will take off his ear.
There is a certain amount ofinsanity that's there to make
greatness happen.

Don (01:02:03):
We're seeing a very similar thing happen, just in the space
of not a paintbrush but a courtyeah and I I wonder if that's
there and so in the same wayyeah, I was just because I
wonder how john mackinrow wouldwould deal with like olympic
tennis today, like it's notjudgment anymore, it's now
technology has the robots down.
The lasers are there, Likethere's no judgment in the way

(01:02:26):
some of the sport is.
Like there's always gonna bejudgment in sport.
There's no way around that.
But some of the things thatJohn is most famous for arguing
those arguments have been takenaway.
Like we can play it back now insuper slow motion and see
exactly where the ball landed.
I wonder how like his careerwould have happened today and

(01:02:47):
how famous he would have beenbecause because his skill.
Like his skill was there.
The reason he's playingwimbledon is because he's an
excellent tennis player.

Doug (01:02:53):
Great, yeah, so yeah, what is funny about you saying that
is there is a more modern clipthat's come out.
I want to say the clip had tohave been in the past 10 years
and it was one of the ones I waslooking at when he was doing
research where he calls a playLike he's playing in like a kind
of exhibition match, and hecalls a play to go out and they
instantly show the replay on thescreens all around the stadium

(01:03:15):
and you can clearly see thatit's in and he starts laughing
immediately, kind of throws hishand in front of him and goes,
oh, give me a break.
And he's laughing because, tospeak exactly to what you're
saying of like that's done now,you know what I mean.
And he kind of has to laugh athimself because he's like my
entire career is based on we'vemoved on from that now and he
can kind of laugh because of thecaricature of what is there,

(01:03:38):
yeah.

Ron (01:03:39):
So how would we guide our youth, though?
Right, you brought up the, youbrought up the idea.
Yeah, if, if tina on the court,young tina is swinging her
tennis racket, yeah, and she'scussing out the ref, we're gonna
say, bad tina, terrible tinayeah and I often think of like.
we have lots of stories about uhsort of who we would consider

(01:03:59):
bad or cruel or hardcore parentswho have driven their children
to be the best in the sportOften successfully they become
the best.
The Serena and Selena Williamsstory with Will Smith, their dad
.

Doug (01:04:17):
Venus.
Venus is the other one.

Ron (01:04:19):
Sorry, who am?

Doug (01:04:19):
I talking about you, said Selena oh Gomez.
Am I talking about you?
Said Selena oh Gomez.
I'm talking about Selena Gomez.

Ron (01:04:26):
Right, we think that's bad, but they do become the best.
So like is that a choice?
Do you have to at some point,forsake the virtues to become
the absolute best at a thing andat that point is it okay.
So long as you are the best,it's okay.
But if you fail to reach thatpinnacle and you're not sporting

(01:04:48):
, are you trash, Are you out?

Doug (01:04:53):
I would think that the sportsmanship comes back in,
that I'm starting to feel thatsportsmanship is the humanity
that that's the reality is like.
Sportsmanship is there toengage in the fact that
competition is incredible, thewhole all's fair in love and war
type of an expression and thatlike war, sport, whatever you
want to say well, no, somethings are not fair and I think

(01:05:16):
that there are some people thatwill forego for that greatness.
but sportsmanship seems to relyon this fact that in engaging in
competition, if you'd like, tostill be in touch with that
humanity aspect, yeah, there's asacrifice that is made,
sometimes for that greatness, atthe expense because, several of
the people, um, I there is alsogreatness in people that have
tremendous respect andsportsmanship in there, but

(01:05:38):
there is, yeah, those few thatkind of push the boundaries of
this to make us think about whatsportsmanship is.
For this reason, and so youngTina I don't think should be
engaging in that type ofbehavior, because what is earned
by that is we're learning toplay this incredibly differently
, because John has an entirelifetime of building that

(01:05:59):
athleticism and craft and art tostart to push those boundaries
in a very specific way, becauseTina maybe does not have the
emotional maturity to understandwhy she's doing it other than I
don't like losing or I will winat all costs, and that's a very
different thing, as we talkedabout.

Don (01:06:16):
I think it's the paradox of the fact that youth sports and
professional sports are actuallydifferent activities even
though they look like they arethe same activity, because the
idea of using sport to trainchildren, not just physically
but in terms of virtue, goes allthe way back to the Spartans,

(01:06:37):
right, the Spartans taught.
Xenophon said they teach theboys to fight, but also to fight
honorably.
Like it wasn't just about likethe physical ability and the
training, it was about makingsure that your mind was also in
control, in your own control.
Yeah, and that's one of thereasons that we still have sport

(01:06:59):
today for children.
It mimics situations that theywill need to face in their life.
They will need to learn how towin, and they need to learn how
to win honorably.
They they will need to learnhow to lose.
They need to learn how to shakethe hand of somebody that just
took something from them thatthey wanted so badly.
Right and right.
And that's really what we'reteaching children, like the
number of children who playLittle League that grow up to

(01:07:20):
play on the Dodgers is, you know, that's not the point.
The point of playing LittleLeague is to learn all those
other things, and that's theseparation that I think
sometimes adults forget to makebetween the behavior we expect
out of our professionals.
Yep, I think it should be thesame, because they are setting
an example for those children.
Correct, but the money?

Doug (01:07:41):
Yeah, it's rotten to the core, right Through through.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Ron (01:07:48):
All right, did we find our golden rule?
What is it Be good to oneanother?
I mean, that is right.

Doug (01:07:58):
Treat others unto I mean that is right.
Treat others unto um, I'm.
What I'm taking more thananything is, yes, sport
imitating life.
I'm seeing so much of that inthe conversation that we have
that there are times thatboundaries do need to be pushed
there, of course, in in everysingle aspect.

(01:08:18):
But the truth is, is that, touse our original example, where
John McEnroe is going to pushthe boundaries of we need to
have the highest level ofstandards per professional
tennis, because this is my artis not the same as I bite my
opponent's ear when I'mbeginning to slip because at all
costs, I must win.
They're saying two differentthings about life, and I think

(01:08:39):
that that is the beauty of thisconversation we've had tonight
is that, ultimately, that's whatI'm seeing is I feel that I
never want to be in a situationin life that I have to bite the
ear of the opponent in order toget what's mine when I begin to
lose.
I have to find the way tointeract within the sport that
is my life in order to do that,and I will push boundaries if

(01:09:01):
necessary, but not at theexpense of the humanity and the
artistry of who I am as a person.

Ron (01:09:08):
Damn, that's it.
Well, there you go.

Doug (01:09:11):
Have a great night.

Ron (01:09:15):
You can't be serious man.
You cannot be serious, Thankyou.