September 9, 2025 • 56 mins
How does a yoga studio transform into a terrorist organization? The story of Aum Shinrikyo offers a chilling glimpse into the dark evolution of what may be history's most scientifically sophisticated doomsday cult.
Through our exploration of this Japanese cult's transformation, we track founder Shoko Asahara's journey from a partially blind yoga teacher selling spiritual enlightenment to a megalomaniacal leader who declared himself both Christ and Shiva. What makes this case particularly disturbing is not just the deadly 1995 Tokyo subway attack that killed 13 and injured thousands, but the remarkable educational background of many cult members – scientists, engineers, and PhD students who actively helped develop chemical weapons.
We dissect the cult's recruitment techniques, bizarre initiation rituals (including drinking the leader's blood for $8,000), and their sophisticated propaganda including custom-made anime. The turning point came after Asahara's humiliating political defeat, which triggered a shift toward apocalyptic ideology and violence. Through this lens, we examine the thin line between legitimate spiritual seeking and dangerous extremism.
Perhaps most unsettling is our discussion about why intelligent, educated people fall prey to cult manipulation. The psychology behind these choices reveals uncomfortable truths about human vulnerability to charismatic leadership and how our universal need for meaning and purpose can sometimes override rational thinking. This episode challenges the common assumption that only certain types of people join cults, suggesting instead that under the right circumstances, anyone might be susceptible.
Have you ever wondered what beliefs you hold with cult-like devotion? Listen now and discover the warning signs that distinguish dangerous thought systems from healthy communities. The mechanisms that created Aum Shinrikyo continue to operate in our world today – understanding them is the first step toward protection.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug (00:29):
We finally made it.
We're here.
Ron (00:32):
Are you guys excited we got an Emmy?
Can we get those?
Doug (00:37):
Golden Globes only.
Ron (00:38):
I think that's the one right Potties.
We get potties.
Doug (00:45):
So terrible.
No, we're finally here.
We have, uh reached thethreshold.
We want to thank all of you oncannibals for listening.
Um, we're now in the process ofgoing under full transition
into making this a uh faith anduh cher uh, that we can proceed
(01:05):
forward in a, in a space ofworship.
And I guess, to open this up, Iwas curious, um, as we move the
podcast into becoming a cult,um, what do you think some of
our traditions should be?
What type of membership are welooking for?
Um, do our listeners need toget more serious?
What do you think?
Ron (01:25):
Well, I understand that this is going to be big news to
our listeners, but a lot of youhave been asking for this and,
frankly, this has been our goalfrom the very beginning.
I think the core tenets of ourproject let's call it would be
obviously be well unto others.
Yeah.
Doug (01:44):
It's always a staple right enrich the world yeah uh live
laugh learn.
And when you say, enrich theworld, like capitalism right
yeah, like uh get get rich ordie try it.
Ron (01:57):
Yeah, get that fat stack, son.
That's good, that's up therefor sure.
Don (02:05):
For me it always has been good, yeah, other podcasts
entertain, we enlighten.
Doug (02:11):
Yeah, okay, now we're getting somewhere?
Um.
Are any of us capable?
This is another thing I wasthinking of is it would have
been good to announce thisearlier.
Are we capable of anythingsupernatural?
Ron (02:26):
Yeah, um what do you do?
I'm very good at uhconversation at parties oh yeah,
just phenomenal conversant I'veseen brains shut down.
Doug (02:40):
Yeah, when you've begun, yeah, to use that silvery tongue
of yours.
Ron (02:45):
Yeah, that's true, I can usually tell when people are
tired of me speaking and then Ican.
I can leave the conversation, Ican end it.
Doug (02:53):
Yeah, I can tell when people are tired period.
I think just that looking atthem.
Ron (02:58):
Yeah, that's a big one, it's not, you go and you put
your hand on them and yourestore energy to them.
Doug (03:04):
Yeah, usually I scare them and then they adrenaline kind
of bring something back.
Ron (03:08):
They run away and you're like that's energy baby.
Doug (03:10):
I don't know, and you have listeners.
I mean send us your, youremails, your text messages, po
box letters, whatever you canfor what would impress you.
We got to keep this going.
Don anything supernatural thatyou can do.
Don (03:23):
No, I'm just more of a follower, I think I can make
Kool-Aid.
Ron (03:33):
You have the practical know-how that is required to
maintain this organization.
Doug (03:36):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, hopefully we don't startcalling you Brian and yeah, go
in that direction.
But yeah, to be honest, I'm nota huge fan of cults.
I'm not really a huge fan oh, Idon't actually want our podcast
were you testing me?
Ron (03:52):
yeah, I feel a little caught out in the open.
Doug (03:55):
This is gonna be the last meeting with ron, but it's been
fun it's been fun.
I'll tell you that.
Um no, yeah, I'm not really abig fan of cults.
I think they might have ahistory of doing some bad stuff.
Have you ever been in a cult?
I've wondered about that.
Ron (04:15):
You're not sure I don't know I get it right.
What is a cult really?
You say cult and you saythey're all bad.
But I was thinking like, areall cults bad?
There must have been a goodcult.
There's got to be some goodcults.
Can we go back?
What is the original cult?
I mean the word cult rightcomes from what the ancient
(04:35):
Greek cults of the Greek gods,the?
Don (04:38):
cult comes from Latin cultus, which means worship
Right.
Ron (04:46):
It's just a person who worships right.
So what?
Doug (04:47):
there were like cults of dianysios and, uh, afroditi
excellent pronunciation rightand those weren't necessarily
bad all the time probably I'dlike to know I've never been a
part of them well, and then Ialso think I think of cult
followings as well yeah yeah,there's a lot of movies that I
(05:10):
enjoy.
I have a signed football fromtom room, yeah, from tommy
wiseau and that's considered oneof the greatest cult films of
all time, does have a cultfollowing does when you go see
it in a theater in los angelesespecially?
It seems that the members ofthe audience are almost engaged
in a rapturous behavior thatcould be called religious I
(05:31):
think, uh, my argument is thatsomewhere in modern parlance the
word cult uh dawned a negativeconnotation.
Ron (05:39):
Right a conversation of evil and and being bad, or or uh
, being mindless, right, um, butlike don said it really just
described worshipers or worshipthe act of worship and I don't.
I don't think we think worshipis bad, um, so I'm just
interested in, like, what's theline between cult worship and
(06:00):
worship?
Don (06:00):
good worship.
The word, as we understandtoday, started to be used by
psychologists in the early 20thcentury to um to refer to groups
that are led by a charismaticleader, um, that's usually
secretive in nature.
The, the personality, is whatcarries the, the, the system,
(06:21):
forward.
Separate from a religious cult,which um would be just a group
of believers, and sohistorically, that would be how
that word had been used, like inancient times.
Like you were talking about,the cult, different gods would
refer to the worship practicesof, of followers of Dionysus or
Aphrodite or Zeus, or so.
(06:42):
It didn't have a negative.
However, there have always beenthose like sectarian outsiders
that are challenging establishedreligion, that are often like.
Even though the word didn'texist, they were still sort of
identified as dangerousoutsiders who had a different
belief system or werechallenging a belief system or
(07:03):
so that has existed always, butyeah, you're, you're quakers and
you're protestants and thingsright even even jesus would have
been considered an outsider tothe, the established religion,
at the time.
Doug (07:16):
So coming in on a donkey.
Yeah, it's a very different.
Uh, it's a very different umthing.
It's interesting even bringingthat up because I've actually
sat in on I'm not not apracticing Quaker by any means,
but I have sat in on a Quakerprayer meeting.
And to sit in a room for 45minutes before anybody speaks
anything that they're hearing,yeah, I could see certain groups
(07:39):
of people saying it seems likethis is cult-like behavior.
Yeah, it's interesting.
It's interesting to get to thebottom, and you're right, and
maybe I did spin this verynegatively right away Like cult
doesn't have to necessarily bebad.
Ron (07:52):
I mean, they probably are right.
Doug (07:54):
And I'm going to say what if I told you I knew about a
pretty bad one?
What if I just objectively toldyou, I think this one's bad?
Ron (08:04):
Yeah, I believe it.
When.
Who's our bad?
What bad cult you found for ustoday, doug.
Well, let's go back to 1995.
Doug (08:12):
What were you doing in 1995?
Ron (08:15):
oh, that's two years after jurassic park came out so
probably watching jurassic parkon vhs in my living room, the
cult is a six-year-old yeah,yeah, probably eagerly awaiting.
I'm sure the lost world isaround the corner, maybe a
trailer.
Jurassic Park on VHS in myliving room, the cult of
Spielberg yeah, probably eagerlyawaiting.
I'm sure the Lost World isaround the corner.
Maybe a trailer for it hasalready come out.
Okay, space Jam maybe came out.
Doug (08:36):
You believe you can fly?
Ron (08:37):
Yeah, I can see that that's what I'm doing in 1995.
All right, don, what are youdoing in 1995?
Don (08:44):
I'm studying.
I'm in college Okay,hyper-focused.
I'm learning.
Ron (08:48):
In many ways I was studying too, just like that.
Doug (08:52):
I was not.
There's nothing in my liferesembling studying at that time
.
Well, in 1995, there was anincident in Japan March 20th to
be exact that during Tokyo'sbusiest morning, commute chaos
erupted on the underground.
There were five coordinatedattacks.
Don (09:12):
Can I just say that Tokyo subways are chaos all the time
anyways.
Have you ever seen pictures ofthem?
Doug (09:18):
I have.
Don (09:21):
The attendants are like shoving people into the cars,
wrapping them in so that way thetrain.
Ron (09:26):
yeah, oh, it's chaos.
I feel like they can pop up inmontages where people are like
the people are ants, and thenyou'll, they'll show you that
sounds very organized to me.
Doug (09:40):
I don't know if that sounds like chaos If you have
people pushing you into it.
Don (09:43):
It sounds like forced order more than anything, it means
your entire subway ride is madeup of contact on all sides.
Doug (09:49):
Yeah, I did experience that in the tube in London where
somebody had entered thevehicle by literally just
leaning on people, hearingpeople go, oh God, which is
still one of my funniestmemories of public transit, but
uh not that I have many, but I'msorry I interrupted you.
Don (10:11):
No, I liked it.
Doug (10:11):
I liked it 1995, it was tokyo.
Yes, um, there were fivecoordinated attacks on the tokyo
subway using something calledsarin gas that left 13 dead,
over over a thousand injured anda nation in shock.
This was delivered during themorning, of course, as this was
(10:33):
happening, and, interestinglyenough, this occurred in an area
that intersected, where each ofthese trains that were attacked
, that were attacked, actuallyall of their exit routes led to
the major government and policestations in the Tokyo area.
And, through what we know now,we know that this is the work of
(10:57):
the Aum Shinrikyo cult, which,famously, this was probably
their most significant attack.
They do have some other momentsthat we're going to discuss,
but it did lead to the deathsand the hurting of many, and
this is part of the reason thatI'm going to argue that this is
(11:20):
a bad call.
Ron (11:24):
Only part.
That's kind of unfair.
I was trying to make it allright and you can't bring out
the terrorist cult it's.
Doug (11:32):
It's really unfortunate, um so I had either of you heard
of this uh incident before wegot to talking I have.
Ron (11:40):
Yeah, I've heard of this uh incident.
I've heard of this group.
Uh, I can't say I'm an expertabout it, but it's come across
my way in my travels, so youhaven't watched their anime.
No, they have an anime.
Yeah, you can watch the wholething, is it Gundam?
Doug (11:54):
Is it?
Ron (11:54):
Gundam Shinrikyo Allegory.
Doug (11:58):
It very much is in that style.
It does not have any giantmecha robots, but, yes, the
animation style is incrediblysimilar and, yeah, if you
YouTube the cult, you can watchthe hour and two minutes, which
I wish I could say that I didthat level of research that I
decided to put myself throughthat.
Ron (12:19):
But I have watched a little bit of it.
So it's an anime about likethis the of this group or this
group produced an anime as asort of like propaganda item.
Doug (12:29):
This group produced the anime to really push their
leader.
Yeah, okay, wow, he's flyingaround.
His hair is always flowing inthe wind.
He's.
Ron (12:39):
Dragon Ball he's Super Saiyan.
He's the OG Super Saiyan.
Doug (12:43):
I don't want to put this on Dragon Ball, because I love
Dragon Ball so much, but yeah,that's what they're trying to
push, to say the least.
Yeah, don, were you familiar?
Don (12:52):
with this before.
Yes, because I was an adultwhen it happened.
Okay, I saw it on the news andyes, Remember when I said I was
studying.
Doug (13:04):
That was the most obvious thing you could have said okay,
so don's gonna take it away fromhere.
Have a great day everybody.
Uh, good to know.
Yeah, it was.
It was a very big news story.
Um.
I remember my parents talkingabout it when I was young.
Um, and this um came to light.
Um, and this was all that I hadknown of them.
(13:27):
But doing a little bit moreresearch, there is quite,
there's quite a lot to unpackhere.
But I think I became mostinterested in this because they
came around at such aninteresting time in Japan and I
think it's just there's a lot ofquestions that I have that I'm
curious if you have the samecuriosities about how something
(13:47):
that seems so innocent at firstcan turn into something like
this.
Because at its roots, the AumShinrikyo cult started as a
group of people that wanted tochange the world for the better
through yoga.
That is the origins.
It started with yoga and uhhave either of you done yoga
(14:08):
before?
Ron (14:09):
Yeah, I won't anymore though.
Okay, careful, next time you goto downward dog freaks you
could you could.
Doug (14:16):
You could go to there.
Um, yeah, there's.
It's interesting because I'veuh, I've only engaged in it
through trying to do it with mywife through a YouTube video.
I've never been to an actualclass, but anybody that I know
that practices yoga and they'renot part of this cult but
essentially are part of yogapractice it seems to be a very
(14:37):
beneficial thing for their lifeand so, knowing that that's a
huge part of these origins, itkind of remains confusing to me
of how do we get to the pointthat we're attacking mass groups
of civilians in your owncountry?
So yeah, there's a lot tounpack here.
So this cult was founded in1984 by Ashoka Asahara.
(15:00):
Originally was born ChizuoMatsumoto.
He was partially blind, studiedyoga and mysticism and he
famously again, he's partiallyblind and the school that he was
sent to was a school for theblind.
He's documented as being atremendous bully because he
(15:24):
essentially was less blind thanmany of his other students and
would steal their money and giveit back to them, and was
basically starting like racketsat their school in which he
would give the money back ifthey would do favors for him.
And the reason this is oftenbrought up is people will point
to this and say see, he hadtendencies even at the beginning
.
He was always going to start acult, which I think is a little
(15:46):
bit silly, to kind of go through.
Ron (15:49):
I mean, it makes sense.
It's the old idiom, right Likein the land of the blind, the
partially blind is king yeah.
Don (16:03):
I had a tattoo.
Doug (16:15):
That's good, that's good, that's good.
Um, so he, uh, he.
He grows up to get into snakeoil sale, uh, sales, he gets
into again.
Part of the mysticism, um, ishe ends up selling tangerine
peel oil and water as an elixirto heal.
He's arrested for this andduring his time he gets deeper
into the practice of studyingBuddhism and comes out of his
(16:37):
prison experience as anenlightened human being.
The cult starts in that he is avery accomplished yogi.
I believe that's the term yeah,I've heard that word.
Okay, yeah, I believe like thebear.
Ron (16:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's one of the best bears and uh was
yogi bear part of them is thattheir anime that's right, the
picnic basket, it's all makingsense and downward dog.
Doug (17:12):
Those two things just in common.
Um, somebody had to do it,don's got us.
Um.
What's interesting is he leaves, yeah, the.
The practice of looking atsomething that theoretically
would be helping people when shestarts studying Eastern
medicine he uses this to rippeople off comes out of Buddhism
and the life of essentially theacceptance of non-attachment
(17:38):
principles and, you know,avoiding suffering through the
lack of attachment to things,and then begins to amass
followers that need to pay to bea part of his teachings,
(18:07):
especially through the followingyears, because he famously
acquires a ton of gifts and cashthat he brings to the Dalai
Lama to set up a meeting withhim, to which he says he wants
to discuss and have aconversation.
But the whole purpose of himdoing that was actually just to
stage photographs of him beingon stage with him, um, to which
later he uses to indicate thatum, he's been blessed by the
(18:28):
dalai lama in his pursuit of umkind of religious freedom.
Um, he has a book and I don'twant to mess up this title when
he hits his peak.
Ron (18:41):
Uh, let me is it like uh buddhism, colon neon genesis
it's, it's almost that good.
Doug (18:52):
Um, there we go, declaring myself the Christ, disclosing
the true meanings of JesusChrist's gospel Shoko, asahara.
Yeah, this is where we really.
Ron (19:13):
I mean, he's not the first one.
There's good money in declaringyourself the Christ.
Doug (19:18):
No, not by any means.
When's this all happening?
This is the 70s or the 80s, sohe founds this in 84 and it's
really focused on yoga at thistime.
And what's interesting is ishe's posting advertisements in a
magazine called twilight zonemagazine, which is a science
fiction magazine, yeah, and sohe is intentionally kind of
(19:39):
going this route of like therethere's all this mystical, you
know, he's almost like playinginto the fact that it's this
very sci-fi, conspiratorial,like Ooh, you know, on top of it
, and it seems that at a certainpoint he starts just taking it
more seriously.
Ron (19:54):
Well, like L Ron Hubbard was doing the same thing just a
few years earlier, right yeah?
Doug (19:58):
There's kind of a playbook there, yeah, and that's that's
kind of what I I you know I'vedone much less.
Ron (20:07):
Is it because, like people who are into sci-fi and fantasy,
they're already sort of likealternative, they're already
interested in like alternative?
Ideas it's a great course, andso you can kind of warm in with
a fun sci-fi premise and thenkind of flip the switch on them
and be like well, but you're asmart person.
You already think outside thebox.
Why can't you go a littlefurther?
Doug (20:26):
Right?
I would think so.
The documentary that I watchedto pull a lot of this
information is based on the bookthat was published about the
cult and it's interestingbecause they take a stance that
because Japan in the 1980s is atthe peak of consumerism and
(20:46):
doing pretty well financially,that there's a counter culture
that's emerging, saying like Idon't know if all of this
success and economic wealth isactually a good thing for the
soul, leading to people wantingmore.
And so then these types ofthings pop up of like where can
this be?
And they're also going toattribute it a lot to the forced
retiring of the idea of the Godemperor in Japan following the
(21:11):
end of world war two.
And like who, where doesreligion come from in Japan?
And there's like a wholeidentity that's being mixed
around.
It's it's difficult to say,especially not being a social
scientist and studying up onJapan, but again, going with
kind of what you just said, Ithink a lot of times these are
how these things happen is likethe right social conditions come
along and people generallybegin to follow.
(21:33):
So starts off.
You know, simple enough, thathe's incredibly talented at yoga
and bringing people to physicaland spiritual harmony, but then
this leads to.
He was famous for taking aphotograph where he's levitating
.
So he's in the full Lotus pose,which essentially looks like
(21:55):
you're sitting cross-legged, butyou've brought both of your
feet up into the ball socket ofyour hip as you're as you're
sitting, which requirestremendous flexibility.
Well, the photo was takenbecause he essentially used his
glute and hamstring muscles tolike launch himself off the
ground in a hop in that position.
(22:18):
And the descriptor under thephoto and one of their pamphlets
says look at, look at our godin in peace.
As their pamphlets says look atour God in peace.
Or look at the Lamb of God inpeace, as he's levitating off
the ground.
And what's hilarious is, if youlook at his facial expression,
it looks like he's doing like adeep squat with tons of weight
on his back, like just ah, it'slike he launched into the air?
Ron (22:40):
Not at all.
In peace, not at all in peace.
Doug (22:43):
But yeah, essentially made these claims for that.
So where this starts to takeoff, I think, is money, because
they're.
Ron (22:55):
It started off good and pure but money.
Like we know, this story DonMoney corrupts and it turned it
into.
Don (23:04):
Not me.
No, send all your money to me.
I'm not corrupt.
Doug (23:12):
That's where we're going, baby.
So he begins to attractstudents from the university who
are more free-minded andthinking and one of the um.
He essentially starts to employa team who are in the sciences
Um and this is going to comearound later.
But he starts to get some thatare into engineering and
(23:34):
architecture and science Um, andthey start some very aggressive
street outreach.
They begin to use a mediaproduction company that produces
anime for them that likeportrays him uh with uh by the
way, he's very much not blind inthe anime like he really has
done a number.
Ron (23:53):
Not blind at all, no very much, yeah, his eyes are
completely open to the world andnever forget your roots.
Doug (24:00):
It's a bummer, exactly um.
And they would also use freeyoga classes essentially to
bring people in before thespiritual portion would um start
?
But the interesting thing isthe message always followed you
don't need things of this world,you don't need money to satisfy
you.
That's what's being taught toyou by the culture.
So, as don just said, give allthat to me, give it's a good old
(24:21):
choco.
He'll take care of you and allwill be well.
Ron (24:25):
And no one did, because no one would fall for that.
Well, membership in Japan peaksat around 10,000 people in the
early 90s and it starts to getincredibly, yeah, so is this
kind of like a telephone cult,right, like are people meeting
in a physical space, or is itkind of one of those things
(24:48):
where, like hey, send us somewire, some money over the phone
and we'll give you a voicemailblessing or something?
Doug (24:56):
Physical space.
People are leaving.
They're building kind ofcommune type structures.
Okay, um, in a mountain townoutside of fuji, um, they are
reconciling in different meetinghalls and what's interesting is
like there's actual clips youcan find of newscasters that are
having shoko on the news he'sagain going back to, as don said
(25:18):
, incredibly charismatic, greatat speaking.
Um, a lot of television showsare bringing him on as a talk
show host where he'sdemonstrating different
enlightening rituals and peoplethat are receiving, you know,
these spiritual bonuses and it'svery out of place, like when
you watch it, like there's asequence of him rubbing his
thumb on somebody's likeforehead, back and forth and
(25:39):
this woman starts convulsing andkind shaking and uh, it's.
Ron (25:44):
it's fairly disturbing to watch entertainment, though
right like they're not, they'relike well, this is this guy's
gonna pull views.
He's a freak right, or?
Doug (25:52):
or they believe them, and then that's fun too, or
something yeah, that's thestrange part, is it's like, yeah
, where are we with that?
is is it a matter of like it'sjust gonna pull views, or are
they trying to play into thislike, hey, kids, we all know
you're looking for religiousenlightenment and freedom and
we've got the best version herein japan it's?
It's tough to say um, becausethey yeah, they seem they have
(26:15):
them on a lot.
Um, so probably somewhere inthe middle is my guess yeah,
it's like getting jesse venturaon.
Ron (26:21):
You know, like you always, he's gonna draw people there and
so why not?
Absolutely, jesse ventura isactually that's a bad.
I like jesse ventura.
Doug (26:29):
Get him on here, he's not that crazy I said some crazy
things, but he's all, mostly allthere I'd really like to hear
you defend that on a podcast.
Please give us jesse's lifejess is all right.
Ron (26:41):
Everyone in Minnesota loves Jesse Absolutely.
Doug (26:47):
And his wonderful voice.
Yeah, so recruitment isbeginning to peak.
Another interesting thinghappens, so talk to you about
the team of educational groups.
He starts running rituals inwhich, if you'd like to and I
think this is where we get intothe isn't good, or maybe it is
(27:07):
really good, I don't know youtell me um, there's deeper
levels that you can hit.
You're like, now you're in,you're in on sharing, yeah, but
are would you like to go deeper?
Ron (27:15):
yeah, of course, okay, fantastic.
Doug (27:17):
There's no end to my dedication to this for the
equivalent of what somebodydescribed as around eight
thousand one hundred dollars oftoday's money.
Um, you could drink a smallamount of his blood oh, that's
to steal of course I will good.
Ron (27:33):
Good, we're gonna get that.
Doug (27:34):
If I gotta drink it, I can't just, yeah, put it on my
nightstand, uh no there was alsoa less involved ritual in which
, because he was so clean andthis is way before OnlyFans you
could also drink his bath water.
He was doing that.
Oh yeah, I'm going to pass onthat Trendsetter Big time, but
(27:55):
my, it's just.
Don (27:56):
I start to get a little bit cringy over this $7,000
headphones too, you could justlisten to him and his brain
waves would enter your ears.
Absolutely, absolutely A littleless invasive.
Ron (28:09):
Yeah, I'll take that one.
It's cheaper too.
Absolutely, I get theseheadphones.
Doug (28:15):
They later found out that probably that some of the first
people who died that were partof the cult is.
There was another initiationritual to go deeper with.
The guru was an isolationchamber in which he would put
tons of people's bodies forseveral days in a completely
dark and cold space, like itwould usually be built
underground.
They would shield it off.
(28:35):
You'd have to stay there for acertain amount of time and then
you would come out enlightened.
Well, years later, when theyraided the compound that we'll
talk about, um, they found thatthere were bodies in there that
had been cremated, that mostlikely they had died from
asphyxiation or dehydration.
Um, while in this experienceand you might be wondering after
(28:58):
you go deeper with this, whatdo you get?
What?
What do you?
What do you think you receive?
Ron (29:02):
I mean it must be like an enlightenment, a piece of the
soul, A signed copy of Dianetics.
Doug (29:08):
Yeah, big time Close.
It was actually a cassette tapeof the Shoko repeating over and
over in Japanese do good works,do good works, do good works,
do better things, continuemeditation, continue meditation,
continue meditation.
Suffering is behind.
Suffering is behind, over andover again, as quickly as
possible, uh, just hours long,and he would individually record
(29:29):
these for each of the membersthat goes through.
Um the process, that's it.
Ron (29:35):
Yeah, it's a little bit like I thought.
I feel like I've seen some ofthese things before and it seems
like the process is supposed to.
I'm supposed to show up withsome sort of hole in my psyche
or soul or trauma, and then thisperson's supposed to do some
weird shit to me and then I comeback healed from that right.
Doug (29:55):
That's not how this works.
I wanted that for you, hedidn't want that for you, so he
he wanted you to buy the blood,so buy the blood buy the and I
just get a cassette.
Ron (30:05):
Why can't I just buy the cassette?
Doug (30:07):
he's gonna record it for you.
Ron (30:08):
It's gonna be, and only I'll just buy it only the most
privileged just let me buy onlythe most privileged.
Doug (30:14):
You must be isolated first , then you can have the cassette
okay sorry it doesn't work outwell for you, so a different
cult.
Ron (30:23):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I get how I kind of uh, we'll get into
this later, I'm sure, but I'msure we'll eventually talk into
why do people arrive at thesethings right, when they subject
themselves to these things thisgroup of people is unusual
because it it was phd studentsand scientists and people who
(30:46):
are legitimately smart, rightand not the usual.
Don (30:50):
You know when you watch a TV show that has a cult it's
usually you know easily.
You know fooled people who arerecruited into these groups
Disconnected.
Ron (31:01):
In this case, it was society or community in some way
.
Yeah, it wasn't that.
Doug (31:05):
So it's yeah it serves, um , yeah, as a, as, maybe a deeper
warning on, you know, likeagain, right place, right time,
because how does that happen?
But here we are, um, there wasanother group that was record,
uh, recorded on entering, whichwas a group of language students
, um, who studied specificallyrussian.
(31:27):
Any ideas of why shoko would beso excited to have russian
speaking members of his cult?
For the vodka definitely thatpotato whiskey does it right.
That's exactly.
Ron (31:45):
I don't know when.
Is this 80s Something to dowith the Cold War?
Yeah, we're at the end of the80s, early 90s.
Well, some stumps Nukes.
Does he want nuclear weapons,is he?
Doug (32:02):
thinking about weapons.
Ron (32:04):
Oh, we're thinking about weapons.
Why are we thinking?
Doug (32:06):
about weapons.
Well our boy is able to amassabout 30,000 members at its peak
in Russia.
That start to meet and the mainreason.
Ron (32:17):
And the scientists and engineers, again Russian ones.
Doug (32:20):
Well, if there's ever been a group of people that are
interested in sharing theirknowledge of weapons
construction and military-gradehelicopters, and all these
things that we're going to getinto the Russians are going to
be way more interested intalking with him about this, and
so they make a concerted effortto do this.
Effort to do this as thisincreases and as you have a
(32:48):
group of people that are buyingyour book that you are the
Christ and they'll isolate foryou, they'll drink your blood,
they'll drink your bath waterand they'll pretend to levitate
with you.
Maybe he did, who knows?
I haven't drank the blood, butyou begin to think very highly
of yourself.
I think that this leads to somedangerous ways that you can
(33:08):
think Kind of like we do, wethink highly of ourselves now.
I mean, why do you think Iasked about you know how you'd
start to run the Uncannibals?
Ron (33:20):
No, I get it.
I'm saying I empathize with ourshoko protagonist here.
Doug (33:25):
Yeah, protagonist indeed.
Um well, it leads to otherthoughts.
Um, if you're the christ, youcould also be the, uh, the devil
.
Ron (33:36):
Why stop at the christ when ?
Doug (33:38):
I could be the devil or the leader of the country of
japan.
So um decides uh to run uh that.
Yeah, they run shoko as acandidate um in national elect
in elections under the truthparty um and always never been a
bad truth party no, no,absolutely, um for this, um, at
(34:05):
the height of this, because Imean, of course he's going to
get elected, he's got all ofthese people under his belt, so,
and of course, you, I know, Iknow that, um, no, he, yeah, he,
he doesn't, he doesn't want theelection, he doesn't win the
(34:26):
election.
Ron (34:26):
I was trying to build that up into and of course you heard
about him because he was theleader right and I'm pretty sure
he wasn't, but I could see howhe might have almost been yeah,
he he.
Was it a landslide, or was itclose?
Doug (34:34):
wasn't even close okay, just got, so he's popular, but
yeah, 30 000 russians.
Ron (34:40):
He only takes you so far when you want to be elected in
Japan, I guess it's unfortunate.
Doug (34:46):
Yeah, he doesn't do too well.
This is catastrophic for him,considering what he's running in
this cult Because, as afollower, now that you've been
indoctrinated into the cult, howwould you view your leader if
he's?
Ron (35:05):
not taking well.
Clearly, it's not the leader'sfault, it's the world's fault
there we go.
The world is run by demons andoni and we need to.
I get it now I understand wherethe attacks come from.
Doug (35:22):
Damn it the cult takes a very distinctive turn towards
the apocalypse.
Ron (35:28):
Uh following this, oh, they just want not to overthrow the
government, they just want thewhole apocalypse well, if he's
not elected, it can't be a worldthat's pure good and right oh,
so it's not just so we're notstopping at the nation.
Doug (35:41):
It must be the whole cosmos yeah, this is, that's
correct.
So this moment really takesthings in a dark direction, in
which he essentially says well,only reason that this couldn't
have happened is our world iscoming to an end.
He begins to preach doctrineabout how they are the sole
(36:05):
responsible purveyors, and again, this is like only to his most
enlightened and the ones in theinnermost circle.
Again, this is like only to hismost enlightened and the ones
in the innermost circle.
We are the ones that areresponsible for taking people
into the afterlife and purifyingthe earth of those that would
work against us.
So he takes this verypersonally, to say the least.
And, yeah, everything becomesapocalyptic.
(36:27):
And, um, and the compound thathe um, that they're um, they're
in, they um, the group ofscientists that I brought up
earlier, um, have a.
They have numbered buildings,uh, that are in in the compound
and building.
(36:47):
Six out of the eight that Ibelieve were there.
Building 6 was dedicated to theproduction of chemicals and
gases that could be used inwarfare.
Later, when the compound wasraided, they also found knockoff
Kalashnikovs that were beingbuilt so they could have armed
forces, but their big focus wason producing agents that could
(37:13):
be used to attack and basicallyperform terrorist attacks on
people, which is whereeventually we get the
intersection of when this attackhappens on the subway.
There is a group and it'sinteresting because documentary
(37:33):
outlines that there were eightpeople that were killed in the
Matsumoto region outside ofMount Fuji that had died from
various conditions in whichtheir lungs stopped working or
they experienced tremendousburning in their eyes.
This included people that wereturning on their cars and then
(37:55):
suddenly they went.
The sun turned red.
I couldn't breathe, I couldn'tsee, I had to go inside of the
house and we had to call ahospital immediately, and so
some of these people hadsurvived.
But what they had found is thatthe group was essentially
testing this agent in thesesmaller regions, like these
smaller towns, to see and test,like how effective it would be
(38:16):
in killing people quickly.
And what's interesting is, isthis group, like these deaths
that happen?
They didn't push further intoinvestigation.
A lot of those like were kindof open investigations that they
didn't pay much attention to.
And there's a very strong voiceof people that are outraged in
(38:37):
Japan because had thoseinvestigations been pursued and
looking how close the compoundwas to where they were at, it's
highly possible they maybe couldhave stopped the 1995 attacks,
especially considering thosedeaths had happened in 1994.
It's difficult to say, but thisone is big.
Ron (38:54):
It's kind of like a problem of like, sometimes the
imagination of like the securityforces is not up to task, right
, like, why would you think thisweird guy you saw on TV is
amassing an army?
You know like, until the badthing happens, right, then we
can calibrate and adjust, butthen some new insane bad thing
(39:15):
will always happen, right yeah.
Doug (39:17):
Well, they also had had an incident in 1989.
So this is before he had ran.
The cult was getting tremendouspressure from a lawyer named
Susumi Sakamoto, whospecifically engaged in
anti-cult um, you know, likelawsuits and investigations and
because of some of the suspectbehavior and like the fact that
(39:39):
people were leaving their homes,um, there had been incidents we
haven't even gotten into.
They had found that people havebeen dosed with lsd and also um
, electro um, and they're notquite electroshock that's not
exactly the word but essentiallyelectric probes that are being
installed on people's heads tosimulate LSD while people are
(39:59):
having these yoga experiences.
He begins to research that.
I think something's up here,because we're seeing that so
many people are joining this andthen never leaving the group,
like they just stick with thegroup and then they can't ever
go outside again, which is wherethe cult-like behavior shows up
.
Well, in 1989, tsutsumi Sakamotoand his wife and infant son
(40:23):
were found dead in their home.
He had hammer wounds to hisface.
They had been injecting himwith potassium, potassium
chloride that's the thatbelieved the compound.
Yeah, potassium chloride hadbeen injected into each of them
and the bodies of the um.
They found the lawyer, but thebodies of the son and the wife
(40:46):
were found several years later,split between three different
places, um, in order to kind ofthrow the scent of the police
off.
But the murder of this lawyerclearly would have been
connected, because most of theactivity and the publicity of
him moving forward was dedicatedto this cult.
Him being wiped off the face ofthe earth also could have been
(41:09):
one of these signals,essentially saying like, oh, we
probably shouldn't mess withthem because when um, the, when
the government had changed thatthe emperor was not declared the
religious um, the legalisticreligious group in Japan, that
that was like the, the statemandated religion that people
(41:30):
were in, there was a group.
I need to look up their name.
Ron (41:36):
You're talking about the end of World War II right, yes.
The emperor is forced by theUnited States or Douglas
MacArthur right to revoke hisgod ship.
Yes, his god emperor of Duneship.
He has to give up that card.
He wasn't a worm.
Doug (41:53):
That's the only thing, state Shinto.
Here we are, the Toko or theSpecial Hire Police.
They were also known by theirnicknames the Peace Police or
the Thought Police for any ofyou Orwellians out there that
(42:14):
made sure that they carried outcivil law enforcement,
controlled political groups andideologies that deemed to
threaten the public order of theEmpire of Japan or the godhood
of the emperor.
That just sounds like goodness.
Ron (42:25):
Yeah, I want them.
Don (42:28):
Why don't?
Doug (42:28):
we have more of them.
We need to get back to 1911, to1945.
Ron (42:32):
Japan there's, japan there's never a bad party called
the truth party.
There's never a bad policecalled the thought police.
Don (42:40):
It's like there's a deity of irony that just makes sure
that everything is named.
Ron (42:44):
Yeah, that's right If I just name the thing something
good, they can't possibly be bad.
Doug (42:50):
Yeah that's right, something good, they can't
possibly be bad.
Yeah, that's right.
Um, going back to thedocumentary, it speculates that
because there had been suchtremendous religious enforcement
, I mean with a group called thethought police you can't really
make it up, right that theydidn't want to push too hard on
a group of people that aretrying to start a national
identity with a new religion injapan right, because it would be
(43:11):
perceived as the same.
Ron (43:12):
That's always the the like rub with these sorts of things.
Right, it's like you canclearly look at a lot of cults
and be like this is bad, but youcan't like go and do a waco,
because look what happened atwaco, right?
Like yeah so there's like,there's never.
It seems like a good solutionto these right, there's not, but
it doesn't like was solution tothese Right?
Doug (43:33):
There's not.
It's like wasps.
Ron (43:34):
It doesn't seem to be.
There's no good.
I can't let the wasps live.
It's not going to be good if Igo and get them out either.
Doug (43:44):
Well, march 20th 1995, as I said, they executed their
biggest attack, leading to thedeaths of 13 and thousands who
were injured.
And still, to this day, thereare people that are dealing with
chronic breathing and healthissues from the attack.
(44:06):
Evidence is gathered.
They finally raid the compoundin May of 1995.
And Shoko Asahara is arrestedat that time, finding the
explosive drugs, chemicalweapons and Russian helicopters
as well.
Yes, they were getting ready.
Ron (44:25):
He's making the helicopters yeah, they were putting
together helicopters that theycould.
Scientists suck man.
Keep your scientists well paid,so they don't join a.
Doug (44:36):
Leaders, including asahara , are sentenced to death and,
shockingly, it was the executionof asahara actually only
happened in july of 2018.
Wow, yeah, uh, that's wherewhen those started.
So he was in prison for a verylong time but the trial took
eight years.
Don (44:53):
Oh okay, so I didn't know that yeah, the trial started in
1996 and it wasn't finisheduntil 2004.
Um, because they they triedeach of the 13 counts separately
and so it was a.
It was very complex and therewas there's 13 other leaders
that were also um be on trialfor the same at the same time.
So, um, so yeah, he wasn'tsentenced until 2004.
(45:16):
Um, but even so, the lengthbetween sentencing and the
execution is it's lengthy forJapan standards, the 14 years in
between.
Ron (45:27):
So yeah, this is part of the walking the line of not
wanting to seem to.
They wanted to have all the T'scrossed and I's dotted sort of
thing.
Don (45:37):
Well, they have.
They have appeal processes, forsure, but there's been
conversation that some of itmight have been to delay on
purpose to reduce the likelihoodof martyrdom.
Ron (45:49):
No Right.
Don (45:50):
To just get such old news yeah.
Doug (45:55):
Well of martyrdom.
No right to just get such oldnews.
Yeah, well, another thing toconsider with this is um, it's
interesting going that way,because I actually probably see
it more that way as well.
Um, you would think that inthat moment that he's arrested,
it's time to disband and allthis is gone now, right, of
course, took care of the bad guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good.
No we didn't.
Oh no, the cult has never fullydisappeared.
(46:16):
It may not be identifiedanymore as Am Shinrikyo, but we
do still have a group calledAleph that continues under a
softer image, but very similarcolor beliefs softer image, but
very similar color beliefs andalso the Hikari Noa, which is
the Circle of Light, which is amore reformed group, distancing
(46:42):
itself from the subway attacks.
The reason that this issignificant is the Japanese
government still monitors thesegroups under the Public Security
Intelligence Agency, and thereare still over 1,500 registered
followers that are active inRussia and Japan at this time.
So they are part of thesecurity discourse that Japan
has now, because that was such abroad and publicized attack.
(47:03):
And what's interesting is themessage, although maybe not as
apocalyptic and violent.
There's one of the last thingsthat Shoker was described as
saying to the followers thatweren't captured was the way
that our message can continue isthere should be a public way
that we can speak, so we canstill continue to speak in the
(47:24):
shadows, basically indicatingthat the group should split into
two, that one of the groupsshould be at the forefront
saying that's not how we were atall.
That was a group of extremists,where a smaller group continues
to meet and the interestingthing is, of course, like
between elif and hikari noa,there's not like a discernible
well, is that the bad one?
That's like meeting in theshadow.
(47:44):
It's like, no, they're just twodifferent groups that are
presenting similar ideas thatsaid, well, they had some great
things and they did make thatgreat anime an opening credit
song slapped is that always thecase?
um, but yeah, they're, they're.
They're not completely yes, thename is gone, but they, they do
(48:06):
still have this presence asthis group that is seeking
enlightenment through yoga,deprivation, tremendous
leadership, and I think thatthat's like the only thing that
is there is.
They don't have the same kindof iconic leader in the same way
, but the values are still there, and it brings to question so
many things I think about, like,how do you get there?
(48:28):
And I think you know the ideaof one rejected person is part
of it, right Like, if somebodydoesn't, okay, I'm not the
Messiah and I can't be theleader of Japan as well.
Time to go apocalyptic, I mean,that's, that's one thing, but it
seems, I mean, don you kind ofbrought this up?
We have people that are PhDstudents and PhD grads that are
(48:51):
saying this has got to be it,and I find it, I guess,
troublesome that we see thistime and time again.
I'm not the most versed on allcults, by any means, but there
seems to be this through line oflike, how did we get so many
people to buy into this idea andthen seem to do what to me
seems to be objectively bad inthe world.
There is a logic to it, thoughto me seems to be objectively
bad in the world.
Don (49:12):
It, it there's just, there is a logic to it, though I mean
the the we were identifying andI don't think we we pointed it
out too specifically.
But there are a series of cultsthat all kind of end the same
way, like Heaven's Gate, waco,jonestown, like they all kind of
lead towards the same, you knowconclusion.
And town, like they all kind oflead towards the same, you know
conclusion.
(49:32):
And to those of us who are arethankfully not members of the
cold, it seems like, like whywould you choose that?
Like that's a ridiculous thingto choose Right.
But, um, especially when you'retalking about people who are are
educated and and thoughtful and, and you know, university
scientists, there there's asystem that's broken in the
(49:52):
world and you can identify thatthe system is broken and you can
feel powerless in that systemand so hope is just a delusion
because there's nothing I can do.
But then when you turn to, well, if the system is broken, then
we should burn it down, breakthe system and we'll just start
over, and we'll just start overRight.
And Asahara actually, inaddition to drawing from
(50:17):
Christian mythology and elementsof belief, he also drew from
Hindu mythology and at one pointactually declared himself Shiva
as well as Christ.
You've got to take both.
But that idea in Hindu beliefright, that destruction is not
bad.
Like we're viewing this all asbad because we're not
destruction is necessary so thatnew creation can come in and
(50:37):
fill that space.
And and he, he would tell hisfollowers that we're in that
last stage of Hindu time, the umKali, the Yuga, kali, kali,
yuga, I don't forget.
I mean, it was the, the stageof moral decay.
And so we're doing everyone afavor by bringing them, by
bringing destruction, um, sothat way they don't have to live
in this, uh, this moral decayanymore.
(51:00):
So like there's a logic to itthat that, if that, that I mean
it makes sense.
But I please, please, don't goout and adopt this belief
yourself.
That's not, that's not anadvertisement for the goal, but
like it's just a um, people say,gosh, how could, how could
people have made this decision,and that's that's kind of how
(51:20):
right it's.
It's that it, it gives you atype of empowerment.
It, uh, destruction feels likejustice.
I have a voice again.
Doug (51:27):
Yeah.
Ron (51:28):
Yeah, I do think when we talk about cults, oftentimes we
sort of like victim blame thecultists and you know the people
who get caught up in thesethings.
And it does sort of like yousaid, don, it seems illogical,
but it's not.
And I think there's like I thinkeveryone has a thing they kind
of believe in, a cult like way,whether that's like a group of
(51:51):
people they actually hang outwith or an organization they
actually join, or just a thingthey think about themselves or
the people in their lives, andwe often most of us are
fortunate enough that that thingis not a thing that leads us to
cause self-harm or harm toother people, right?
And then the people that getcaught up in these more famous
kind of tragic cult incidencesjust, uh, just happen to be
(52:15):
right, I think.
I don't think they thinkdifferently than any of us.
They just wrong place, wrongtime Sometimes.
Don (52:21):
I think that I think that it happens more frequently than
we identify however because, um,it's the same thought process.
This was just in, uh, I was justreading an article about this
yesterday.
It's the same thought process.
This was just in uh, I was justreading an article about this
yesterday.
It's the same thought processthat allows, um, uh, white
Americans to justify racism intheir own behaviors and beliefs.
Right, it's that?
Yes, I'm voting for a systemthat, um, that will continue to
(52:45):
oppress me and will take away mysafety net and take away my
benefits, but at least I'm not.
You know this other colorperson.
Doug (52:52):
Yeah.
Don (52:52):
There's a belief system that you are part of the select
few because you can identifywith uh belonging to a larger
group, even though you're notgetting the benefits of of that
group, because you're not.
You know you're othering,you're an insider.
Right and when you're, you'repart of the winning team, you're
the, the, that, that the thewinning remnant, and so like,
(53:15):
even like QAnon.
Right, like QAnon is a weirdexample.
I know we try to usually steerclear of politics here, but so
so, just as an academic example,it doesn't have a charismatic
leader.
No right, there's no, there's no, it's just a belief system that
somehow has flourished onlinebecause the online communication
(53:36):
technology that we have today,that we didn't have in 1995,
allows for that sort of you know, distributed belief system to
to exist without thatcharismatic leader saying this
is what you must do.
Ron (53:47):
I feel like it kind of did.
It's just a very digitalcharismatic leader, Avatar of it
.
Q is just a sort of you cankind of Do you just a very
digital charismatic avatar of it?
Q is just a sort of you cankind of because there is a q?
no, I think, I think there wasonce, but I think there were
multiple qs.
But I think the idea of q isenough, right, the idea of a
leader is enough, and then thatmight even be the most powerful
leader a cult can have, becausethen the members can kind of
(54:09):
superimpose whatever qualitiesthey want on that person.
Don (54:12):
Super dangerous too, because there's no way to turn
it off.
Ron (54:14):
Yeah.
Don (54:15):
Yeah Right, Like we can, we can execute the leader of this
cult, but it you can't executewhen it's distributed.
Ron (54:22):
No, no, but I again, like you said, I think that's just a,
it's a thinking, it's.
It's a kind of thinking any ofus can fall into.
Thinking it's.
It's a kind of thinking any ofus can fall into, um, and
sometimes there's a personshepherding it and sometimes
there isn't right.
Uh and oh, shenrikyo and thebranch davidians and all these
(54:44):
kinds of things.
We're like the.
I think those are easier tounderstand and sometimes grab
our attention more because thereis like such a clear villain at
the center of it.
And then we can kind of likepoint our fingers and wag at him
and be like well, I would neverfall for a guy like that, but
like hey, but you you would, youwould fall for other things,
whether there's a guy or not.
Right, right, right yeah.
Don (55:04):
So dang Well okay, okay, you've talked me out of it.
I don't think any good can comefrom our cult uh, worship
scheme.
Uh, we should just do a patreoninstead.
Doug (55:22):
Okay, you can stay.
Then that's fine, buy us acoffee there's a link on the.
Ron (55:23):
I mean, either way, the audience is still giving us
money.
So that's it, and that's uh thereal goal yeah, no blood though
I am not going to be offeringno, I won't offer blood, but
you'll probably find a weirdpicture of me or something.
Doug (55:35):
Thank you, it reads a lot.
Gentlemen, thanks for talkingto me, about talking with me
about this today.
Ron (55:41):
Thank you for bringing it to our attention, doug, of
course.
Don (55:44):
And hey hand, cannibals, don't forget to subscribe, rate,
review or be cast into theouter darkness, where there is
nothing but weeping, gnashing ofteeth and true crime podcasts
see you later, thank you.
We finally made it.
We're here.
Ron (00:32):
Are you guys excited we got an Emmy?
Can we get those?
Doug (00:37):
Golden Globes only.
Ron (00:38):
I think that's the one right Potties.
We get potties.
Doug (00:45):
So terrible.
No, we're finally here.
We have, uh reached thethreshold.
We want to thank all of you oncannibals for listening.
Um, we're now in the process ofgoing under full transition
into making this a uh faith anduh cher uh, that we can proceed
(01:05):
forward in a, in a space ofworship.
And I guess, to open this up, Iwas curious, um, as we move the
podcast into becoming a cult,um, what do you think some of
our traditions should be?
What type of membership are welooking for?
Um, do our listeners need toget more serious?
What do you think?
Ron (01:25):
Well, I understand that this is going to be big news to
our listeners, but a lot of youhave been asking for this and,
frankly, this has been our goalfrom the very beginning.
I think the core tenets of ourproject let's call it would be
obviously be well unto others.
Yeah.
Doug (01:44):
It's always a staple right enrich the world yeah uh live
laugh learn.
And when you say, enrich theworld, like capitalism right
yeah, like uh get get rich ordie try it.
Ron (01:57):
Yeah, get that fat stack, son.
That's good, that's up therefor sure.
Don (02:05):
For me it always has been good, yeah, other podcasts
entertain, we enlighten.
Doug (02:11):
Yeah, okay, now we're getting somewhere?
Um.
Are any of us capable?
This is another thing I wasthinking of is it would have
been good to announce thisearlier.
Are we capable of anythingsupernatural?
Ron (02:26):
Yeah, um what do you do?
I'm very good at uhconversation at parties oh yeah,
just phenomenal conversant I'veseen brains shut down.
Doug (02:40):
Yeah, when you've begun, yeah, to use that silvery tongue
of yours.
Ron (02:45):
Yeah, that's true, I can usually tell when people are
tired of me speaking and then Ican.
I can leave the conversation, Ican end it.
Doug (02:53):
Yeah, I can tell when people are tired period.
I think just that looking atthem.
Ron (02:58):
Yeah, that's a big one, it's not, you go and you put
your hand on them and yourestore energy to them.
Doug (03:04):
Yeah, usually I scare them and then they adrenaline kind
of bring something back.
Ron (03:08):
They run away and you're like that's energy baby.
Doug (03:10):
I don't know, and you have listeners.
I mean send us your, youremails, your text messages, po
box letters, whatever you canfor what would impress you.
We got to keep this going.
Don anything supernatural thatyou can do.
Don (03:23):
No, I'm just more of a follower, I think I can make
Kool-Aid.
Ron (03:33):
You have the practical know-how that is required to
maintain this organization.
Doug (03:36):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, hopefully we don't startcalling you Brian and yeah, go
in that direction.
But yeah, to be honest, I'm nota huge fan of cults.
I'm not really a huge fan oh, Idon't actually want our podcast
were you testing me?
Ron (03:52):
yeah, I feel a little caught out in the open.
Doug (03:55):
This is gonna be the last meeting with ron, but it's been
fun it's been fun.
I'll tell you that.
Um no, yeah, I'm not really abig fan of cults.
I think they might have ahistory of doing some bad stuff.
Have you ever been in a cult?
I've wondered about that.
Ron (04:15):
You're not sure I don't know I get it right.
What is a cult really?
You say cult and you saythey're all bad.
But I was thinking like, areall cults bad?
There must have been a goodcult.
There's got to be some goodcults.
Can we go back?
What is the original cult?
I mean the word cult rightcomes from what the ancient
(04:35):
Greek cults of the Greek gods,the?
Don (04:38):
cult comes from Latin cultus, which means worship
Right.
Ron (04:46):
It's just a person who worships right.
So what?
Doug (04:47):
there were like cults of dianysios and, uh, afroditi
excellent pronunciation rightand those weren't necessarily
bad all the time probably I'dlike to know I've never been a
part of them well, and then Ialso think I think of cult
followings as well yeah yeah,there's a lot of movies that I
(05:10):
enjoy.
I have a signed football fromtom room, yeah, from tommy
wiseau and that's considered oneof the greatest cult films of
all time, does have a cultfollowing does when you go see
it in a theater in los angelesespecially?
It seems that the members ofthe audience are almost engaged
in a rapturous behavior thatcould be called religious I
(05:31):
think, uh, my argument is thatsomewhere in modern parlance the
word cult uh dawned a negativeconnotation.
Ron (05:39):
Right a conversation of evil and and being bad, or or uh
, being mindless, right, um, butlike don said it really just
described worshipers or worshipthe act of worship and I don't.
I don't think we think worshipis bad, um, so I'm just
interested in, like, what's theline between cult worship and
(06:00):
worship?
Don (06:00):
good worship.
The word, as we understandtoday, started to be used by
psychologists in the early 20thcentury to um to refer to groups
that are led by a charismaticleader, um, that's usually
secretive in nature.
The, the personality, is whatcarries the, the, the system,
(06:21):
forward.
Separate from a religious cult,which um would be just a group
of believers, and sohistorically, that would be how
that word had been used, like inancient times.
Like you were talking about,the cult, different gods would
refer to the worship practicesof, of followers of Dionysus or
Aphrodite or Zeus, or so.
(06:42):
It didn't have a negative.
However, there have always beenthose like sectarian outsiders
that are challenging establishedreligion, that are often like.
Even though the word didn'texist, they were still sort of
identified as dangerousoutsiders who had a different
belief system or werechallenging a belief system or
(07:03):
so that has existed always, butyeah, you're, you're quakers and
you're protestants and thingsright even even jesus would have
been considered an outsider tothe, the established religion,
at the time.
Doug (07:16):
So coming in on a donkey.
Yeah, it's a very different.
Uh, it's a very different umthing.
It's interesting even bringingthat up because I've actually
sat in on I'm not not apracticing Quaker by any means,
but I have sat in on a Quakerprayer meeting.
And to sit in a room for 45minutes before anybody speaks
anything that they're hearing,yeah, I could see certain groups
(07:39):
of people saying it seems likethis is cult-like behavior.
Yeah, it's interesting.
It's interesting to get to thebottom, and you're right, and
maybe I did spin this verynegatively right away Like cult
doesn't have to necessarily bebad.
Ron (07:52):
I mean, they probably are right.
Doug (07:54):
And I'm going to say what if I told you I knew about a
pretty bad one?
What if I just objectively toldyou, I think this one's bad?
Ron (08:04):
Yeah, I believe it.
When.
Who's our bad?
What bad cult you found for ustoday, doug.
Well, let's go back to 1995.
Doug (08:12):
What were you doing in 1995?
Ron (08:15):
oh, that's two years after jurassic park came out so
probably watching jurassic parkon vhs in my living room, the
cult is a six-year-old yeah,yeah, probably eagerly awaiting.
I'm sure the lost world isaround the corner, maybe a
trailer.
Jurassic Park on VHS in myliving room, the cult of
Spielberg yeah, probably eagerlyawaiting.
I'm sure the Lost World isaround the corner.
Maybe a trailer for it hasalready come out.
Okay, space Jam maybe came out.
Doug (08:36):
You believe you can fly?
Ron (08:37):
Yeah, I can see that that's what I'm doing in 1995.
All right, don, what are youdoing in 1995?
Don (08:44):
I'm studying.
I'm in college Okay,hyper-focused.
I'm learning.
Ron (08:48):
In many ways I was studying too, just like that.
Doug (08:52):
I was not.
There's nothing in my liferesembling studying at that time
.
Well, in 1995, there was anincident in Japan March 20th to
be exact that during Tokyo'sbusiest morning, commute chaos
erupted on the underground.
There were five coordinatedattacks.
Don (09:12):
Can I just say that Tokyo subways are chaos all the time
anyways.
Have you ever seen pictures ofthem?
Doug (09:18):
I have.
Don (09:21):
The attendants are like shoving people into the cars,
wrapping them in so that way thetrain.
Ron (09:26):
yeah, oh, it's chaos.
I feel like they can pop up inmontages where people are like
the people are ants, and thenyou'll, they'll show you that
sounds very organized to me.
Doug (09:40):
I don't know if that sounds like chaos If you have
people pushing you into it.
Don (09:43):
It sounds like forced order more than anything, it means
your entire subway ride is madeup of contact on all sides.
Doug (09:49):
Yeah, I did experience that in the tube in London where
somebody had entered thevehicle by literally just
leaning on people, hearingpeople go, oh God, which is
still one of my funniestmemories of public transit, but
uh not that I have many, but I'msorry I interrupted you.
Don (10:11):
No, I liked it.
Doug (10:11):
I liked it 1995, it was tokyo.
Yes, um, there were fivecoordinated attacks on the tokyo
subway using something calledsarin gas that left 13 dead,
over over a thousand injured anda nation in shock.
This was delivered during themorning, of course, as this was
(10:33):
happening, and, interestinglyenough, this occurred in an area
that intersected, where each ofthese trains that were attacked
, that were attacked, actuallyall of their exit routes led to
the major government and policestations in the Tokyo area.
And, through what we know now,we know that this is the work of
(10:57):
the Aum Shinrikyo cult, which,famously, this was probably
their most significant attack.
They do have some other momentsthat we're going to discuss,
but it did lead to the deathsand the hurting of many, and
this is part of the reason thatI'm going to argue that this is
(11:20):
a bad call.
Ron (11:24):
Only part.
That's kind of unfair.
I was trying to make it allright and you can't bring out
the terrorist cult it's.
Doug (11:32):
It's really unfortunate, um so I had either of you heard
of this uh incident before wegot to talking I have.
Ron (11:40):
Yeah, I've heard of this uh incident.
I've heard of this group.
Uh, I can't say I'm an expertabout it, but it's come across
my way in my travels, so youhaven't watched their anime.
No, they have an anime.
Yeah, you can watch the wholething, is it Gundam?
Doug (11:54):
Is it?
Ron (11:54):
Gundam Shinrikyo Allegory.
Doug (11:58):
It very much is in that style.
It does not have any giantmecha robots, but, yes, the
animation style is incrediblysimilar and, yeah, if you
YouTube the cult, you can watchthe hour and two minutes, which
I wish I could say that I didthat level of research that I
decided to put myself throughthat.
Ron (12:19):
But I have watched a little bit of it.
So it's an anime about likethis the of this group or this
group produced an anime as asort of like propaganda item.
Doug (12:29):
This group produced the anime to really push their
leader.
Yeah, okay, wow, he's flyingaround.
His hair is always flowing inthe wind.
He's.
Ron (12:39):
Dragon Ball he's Super Saiyan.
He's the OG Super Saiyan.
Doug (12:43):
I don't want to put this on Dragon Ball, because I love
Dragon Ball so much, but yeah,that's what they're trying to
push, to say the least.
Yeah, don, were you familiar?
Don (12:52):
with this before.
Yes, because I was an adultwhen it happened.
Okay, I saw it on the news andyes, Remember when I said I was
studying.
Doug (13:04):
That was the most obvious thing you could have said okay,
so don's gonna take it away fromhere.
Have a great day everybody.
Uh, good to know.
Yeah, it was.
It was a very big news story.
Um.
I remember my parents talkingabout it when I was young.
Um, and this um came to light.
Um, and this was all that I hadknown of them.
(13:27):
But doing a little bit moreresearch, there is quite,
there's quite a lot to unpackhere.
But I think I became mostinterested in this because they
came around at such aninteresting time in Japan and I
think it's just there's a lot ofquestions that I have that I'm
curious if you have the samecuriosities about how something
(13:47):
that seems so innocent at firstcan turn into something like
this.
Because at its roots, the AumShinrikyo cult started as a
group of people that wanted tochange the world for the better
through yoga.
That is the origins.
It started with yoga and uhhave either of you done yoga
(14:08):
before?
Ron (14:09):
Yeah, I won't anymore though.
Okay, careful, next time you goto downward dog freaks you
could you could.
Doug (14:16):
You could go to there.
Um, yeah, there's.
It's interesting because I'veuh, I've only engaged in it
through trying to do it with mywife through a YouTube video.
I've never been to an actualclass, but anybody that I know
that practices yoga and they'renot part of this cult but
essentially are part of yogapractice it seems to be a very
(14:37):
beneficial thing for their lifeand so, knowing that that's a
huge part of these origins, itkind of remains confusing to me
of how do we get to the pointthat we're attacking mass groups
of civilians in your owncountry?
So yeah, there's a lot tounpack here.
So this cult was founded in1984 by Ashoka Asahara.
(15:00):
Originally was born ChizuoMatsumoto.
He was partially blind, studiedyoga and mysticism and he
famously again, he's partiallyblind and the school that he was
sent to was a school for theblind.
He's documented as being atremendous bully because he
(15:24):
essentially was less blind thanmany of his other students and
would steal their money and giveit back to them, and was
basically starting like racketsat their school in which he
would give the money back ifthey would do favors for him.
And the reason this is oftenbrought up is people will point
to this and say see, he hadtendencies even at the beginning
.
He was always going to start acult, which I think is a little
(15:46):
bit silly, to kind of go through.
Ron (15:49):
I mean, it makes sense.
It's the old idiom, right Likein the land of the blind, the
partially blind is king yeah.
Don (16:03):
I had a tattoo.
Doug (16:15):
That's good, that's good, that's good.
Um, so he, uh, he.
He grows up to get into snakeoil sale, uh, sales, he gets
into again.
Part of the mysticism, um, ishe ends up selling tangerine
peel oil and water as an elixirto heal.
He's arrested for this andduring his time he gets deeper
into the practice of studyingBuddhism and comes out of his
(16:37):
prison experience as anenlightened human being.
The cult starts in that he is avery accomplished yogi.
I believe that's the term yeah,I've heard that word.
Okay, yeah, I believe like thebear.
Ron (16:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's one of the best bears and uh was
yogi bear part of them is thattheir anime that's right, the
picnic basket, it's all makingsense and downward dog.
Doug (17:12):
Those two things just in common.
Um, somebody had to do it,don's got us.
Um.
What's interesting is he leaves, yeah, the.
The practice of looking atsomething that theoretically
would be helping people when shestarts studying Eastern
medicine he uses this to rippeople off comes out of Buddhism
and the life of essentially theacceptance of non-attachment
(17:38):
principles and, you know,avoiding suffering through the
lack of attachment to things,and then begins to amass
followers that need to pay to bea part of his teachings,
(18:07):
especially through the followingyears, because he famously
acquires a ton of gifts and cashthat he brings to the Dalai
Lama to set up a meeting withhim, to which he says he wants
to discuss and have aconversation.
But the whole purpose of himdoing that was actually just to
stage photographs of him beingon stage with him, um, to which
later he uses to indicate thatum, he's been blessed by the
(18:28):
dalai lama in his pursuit of umkind of religious freedom.
Um, he has a book and I don'twant to mess up this title when
he hits his peak.
Ron (18:41):
Uh, let me is it like uh buddhism, colon neon genesis
it's, it's almost that good.
Doug (18:52):
Um, there we go, declaring myself the Christ, disclosing
the true meanings of JesusChrist's gospel Shoko, asahara.
Yeah, this is where we really.
Ron (19:13):
I mean, he's not the first one.
There's good money in declaringyourself the Christ.
Doug (19:18):
No, not by any means.
When's this all happening?
This is the 70s or the 80s, sohe founds this in 84 and it's
really focused on yoga at thistime.
And what's interesting is ishe's posting advertisements in a
magazine called twilight zonemagazine, which is a science
fiction magazine, yeah, and sohe is intentionally kind of
(19:39):
going this route of like therethere's all this mystical, you
know, he's almost like playinginto the fact that it's this
very sci-fi, conspiratorial,like Ooh, you know, on top of it
, and it seems that at a certainpoint he starts just taking it
more seriously.
Ron (19:54):
Well, like L Ron Hubbard was doing the same thing just a
few years earlier, right yeah?
Doug (19:58):
There's kind of a playbook there, yeah, and that's that's
kind of what I I you know I'vedone much less.
Ron (20:07):
Is it because, like people who are into sci-fi and fantasy,
they're already sort of likealternative, they're already
interested in like alternative?
Ideas it's a great course, andso you can kind of warm in with
a fun sci-fi premise and thenkind of flip the switch on them
and be like well, but you're asmart person.
You already think outside thebox.
Why can't you go a littlefurther?
Doug (20:26):
Right?
I would think so.
The documentary that I watchedto pull a lot of this
information is based on the bookthat was published about the
cult and it's interestingbecause they take a stance that
because Japan in the 1980s is atthe peak of consumerism and
(20:46):
doing pretty well financially,that there's a counter culture
that's emerging, saying like Idon't know if all of this
success and economic wealth isactually a good thing for the
soul, leading to people wantingmore.
And so then these types ofthings pop up of like where can
this be?
And they're also going toattribute it a lot to the forced
retiring of the idea of the Godemperor in Japan following the
(21:11):
end of world war two.
And like who, where doesreligion come from in Japan?
And there's like a wholeidentity that's being mixed
around.
It's it's difficult to say,especially not being a social
scientist and studying up onJapan, but again, going with
kind of what you just said, Ithink a lot of times these are
how these things happen is likethe right social conditions come
along and people generallybegin to follow.
(21:33):
So starts off.
You know, simple enough, thathe's incredibly talented at yoga
and bringing people to physicaland spiritual harmony, but then
this leads to.
He was famous for taking aphotograph where he's levitating
.
So he's in the full Lotus pose,which essentially looks like
(21:55):
you're sitting cross-legged, butyou've brought both of your
feet up into the ball socket ofyour hip as you're as you're
sitting, which requirestremendous flexibility.
Well, the photo was takenbecause he essentially used his
glute and hamstring muscles tolike launch himself off the
ground in a hop in that position.
(22:18):
And the descriptor under thephoto and one of their pamphlets
says look at, look at our godin in peace.
As their pamphlets says look atour God in peace.
Or look at the Lamb of God inpeace, as he's levitating off
the ground.
And what's hilarious is, if youlook at his facial expression,
it looks like he's doing like adeep squat with tons of weight
on his back, like just ah, it'slike he launched into the air?
Ron (22:40):
Not at all.
In peace, not at all in peace.
Doug (22:43):
But yeah, essentially made these claims for that.
So where this starts to takeoff, I think, is money, because
they're.
Ron (22:55):
It started off good and pure but money.
Like we know, this story DonMoney corrupts and it turned it
into.
Don (23:04):
Not me.
No, send all your money to me.
I'm not corrupt.
Doug (23:12):
That's where we're going, baby.
So he begins to attractstudents from the university who
are more free-minded andthinking and one of the um.
He essentially starts to employa team who are in the sciences
Um and this is going to comearound later.
But he starts to get some thatare into engineering and
(23:34):
architecture and science Um, andthey start some very aggressive
street outreach.
They begin to use a mediaproduction company that produces
anime for them that likeportrays him uh with uh by the
way, he's very much not blind inthe anime like he really has
done a number.
Ron (23:53):
Not blind at all, no very much, yeah, his eyes are
completely open to the world andnever forget your roots.
Doug (24:00):
It's a bummer, exactly um.
And they would also use freeyoga classes essentially to
bring people in before thespiritual portion would um start
?
But the interesting thing isthe message always followed you
don't need things of this world,you don't need money to satisfy
you.
That's what's being taught toyou by the culture.
So, as don just said, give allthat to me, give it's a good old
(24:21):
choco.
He'll take care of you and allwill be well.
Ron (24:25):
And no one did, because no one would fall for that.
Well, membership in Japan peaksat around 10,000 people in the
early 90s and it starts to getincredibly, yeah, so is this
kind of like a telephone cult,right, like are people meeting
in a physical space, or is itkind of one of those things
(24:48):
where, like hey, send us somewire, some money over the phone
and we'll give you a voicemailblessing or something?
Doug (24:56):
Physical space.
People are leaving.
They're building kind ofcommune type structures.
Okay, um, in a mountain townoutside of fuji, um, they are
reconciling in different meetinghalls and what's interesting is
like there's actual clips youcan find of newscasters that are
having shoko on the news he'sagain going back to, as don said
(25:18):
, incredibly charismatic, greatat speaking.
Um, a lot of television showsare bringing him on as a talk
show host where he'sdemonstrating different
enlightening rituals and peoplethat are receiving, you know,
these spiritual bonuses and it'svery out of place, like when
you watch it, like there's asequence of him rubbing his
thumb on somebody's likeforehead, back and forth and
(25:39):
this woman starts convulsing andkind shaking and uh, it's.
Ron (25:44):
it's fairly disturbing to watch entertainment, though
right like they're not, they'relike well, this is this guy's
gonna pull views.
He's a freak right, or?
Doug (25:52):
or they believe them, and then that's fun too, or
something yeah, that's thestrange part, is it's like, yeah
, where are we with that?
is is it a matter of like it'sjust gonna pull views, or are
they trying to play into thislike, hey, kids, we all know
you're looking for religiousenlightenment and freedom and
we've got the best version herein japan it's?
It's tough to say um, becausethey yeah, they seem they have
(26:15):
them on a lot.
Um, so probably somewhere inthe middle is my guess yeah,
it's like getting jesse venturaon.
Ron (26:21):
You know, like you always, he's gonna draw people there and
so why not?
Absolutely, jesse ventura isactually that's a bad.
I like jesse ventura.
Doug (26:29):
Get him on here, he's not that crazy I said some crazy
things, but he's all, mostly allthere I'd really like to hear
you defend that on a podcast.
Please give us jesse's lifejess is all right.
Ron (26:41):
Everyone in Minnesota loves Jesse Absolutely.
Doug (26:47):
And his wonderful voice.
Yeah, so recruitment isbeginning to peak.
Another interesting thinghappens, so talk to you about
the team of educational groups.
He starts running rituals inwhich, if you'd like to and I
think this is where we get intothe isn't good, or maybe it is
(27:07):
really good, I don't know youtell me um, there's deeper
levels that you can hit.
You're like, now you're in,you're in on sharing, yeah, but
are would you like to go deeper?
Ron (27:15):
yeah, of course, okay, fantastic.
Doug (27:17):
There's no end to my dedication to this for the
equivalent of what somebodydescribed as around eight
thousand one hundred dollars oftoday's money.
Um, you could drink a smallamount of his blood oh, that's
to steal of course I will good.
Ron (27:33):
Good, we're gonna get that.
Doug (27:34):
If I gotta drink it, I can't just, yeah, put it on my
nightstand, uh no there was alsoa less involved ritual in which
, because he was so clean andthis is way before OnlyFans you
could also drink his bath water.
He was doing that.
Oh yeah, I'm going to pass onthat Trendsetter Big time, but
(27:55):
my, it's just.
Don (27:56):
I start to get a little bit cringy over this $7,000
headphones too, you could justlisten to him and his brain
waves would enter your ears.
Absolutely, absolutely A littleless invasive.
Ron (28:09):
Yeah, I'll take that one.
It's cheaper too.
Absolutely, I get theseheadphones.
Doug (28:15):
They later found out that probably that some of the first
people who died that were partof the cult is.
There was another initiationritual to go deeper with.
The guru was an isolationchamber in which he would put
tons of people's bodies forseveral days in a completely
dark and cold space, like itwould usually be built
underground.
They would shield it off.
(28:35):
You'd have to stay there for acertain amount of time and then
you would come out enlightened.
Well, years later, when theyraided the compound that we'll
talk about, um, they found thatthere were bodies in there that
had been cremated, that mostlikely they had died from
asphyxiation or dehydration.
Um, while in this experienceand you might be wondering after
(28:58):
you go deeper with this, whatdo you get?
What?
What do you?
What do you think you receive?
Ron (29:02):
I mean it must be like an enlightenment, a piece of the
soul, A signed copy of Dianetics.
Doug (29:08):
Yeah, big time Close.
It was actually a cassette tapeof the Shoko repeating over and
over in Japanese do good works,do good works, do good works,
do better things, continuemeditation, continue meditation,
continue meditation.
Suffering is behind.
Suffering is behind, over andover again, as quickly as
possible, uh, just hours long,and he would individually record
(29:29):
these for each of the membersthat goes through.
Um the process, that's it.
Ron (29:35):
Yeah, it's a little bit like I thought.
I feel like I've seen some ofthese things before and it seems
like the process is supposed to.
I'm supposed to show up withsome sort of hole in my psyche
or soul or trauma, and then thisperson's supposed to do some
weird shit to me and then I comeback healed from that right.
Doug (29:55):
That's not how this works.
I wanted that for you, hedidn't want that for you, so he
he wanted you to buy the blood,so buy the blood buy the and I
just get a cassette.
Ron (30:05):
Why can't I just buy the cassette?
Doug (30:07):
he's gonna record it for you.
Ron (30:08):
It's gonna be, and only I'll just buy it only the most
privileged just let me buy onlythe most privileged.
Doug (30:14):
You must be isolated first , then you can have the cassette
okay sorry it doesn't work outwell for you, so a different
cult.
Ron (30:23):
Yeah, I'm sorry, I get how I kind of uh, we'll get into
this later, I'm sure, but I'msure we'll eventually talk into
why do people arrive at thesethings right, when they subject
themselves to these things thisgroup of people is unusual
because it it was phd studentsand scientists and people who
(30:46):
are legitimately smart, rightand not the usual.
Don (30:50):
You know when you watch a TV show that has a cult it's
usually you know easily.
You know fooled people who arerecruited into these groups
Disconnected.
Ron (31:01):
In this case, it was society or community in some way
.
Yeah, it wasn't that.
Doug (31:05):
So it's yeah it serves, um , yeah, as a, as, maybe a deeper
warning on, you know, likeagain, right place, right time,
because how does that happen?
But here we are, um, there wasanother group that was record,
uh, recorded on entering, whichwas a group of language students
, um, who studied specificallyrussian.
(31:27):
Any ideas of why shoko would beso excited to have russian
speaking members of his cult?
For the vodka definitely thatpotato whiskey does it right.
That's exactly.
Ron (31:45):
I don't know when.
Is this 80s Something to dowith the Cold War?
Yeah, we're at the end of the80s, early 90s.
Well, some stumps Nukes.
Does he want nuclear weapons,is he?
Doug (32:02):
thinking about weapons.
Ron (32:04):
Oh, we're thinking about weapons.
Why are we thinking?
Doug (32:06):
about weapons.
Well our boy is able to amassabout 30,000 members at its peak
in Russia.
That start to meet and the mainreason.
Ron (32:17):
And the scientists and engineers, again Russian ones.
Doug (32:20):
Well, if there's ever been a group of people that are
interested in sharing theirknowledge of weapons
construction and military-gradehelicopters, and all these
things that we're going to getinto the Russians are going to
be way more interested intalking with him about this, and
so they make a concerted effortto do this.
Effort to do this as thisincreases and as you have a
(32:48):
group of people that are buyingyour book that you are the
Christ and they'll isolate foryou, they'll drink your blood,
they'll drink your bath waterand they'll pretend to levitate
with you.
Maybe he did, who knows?
I haven't drank the blood, butyou begin to think very highly
of yourself.
I think that this leads to somedangerous ways that you can
(33:08):
think Kind of like we do, wethink highly of ourselves now.
I mean, why do you think Iasked about you know how you'd
start to run the Uncannibals?
Ron (33:20):
No, I get it.
I'm saying I empathize with ourshoko protagonist here.
Doug (33:25):
Yeah, protagonist indeed.
Um well, it leads to otherthoughts.
Um, if you're the christ, youcould also be the, uh, the devil
.
Ron (33:36):
Why stop at the christ when ?
Doug (33:38):
I could be the devil or the leader of the country of
japan.
So um decides uh to run uh that.
Yeah, they run shoko as acandidate um in national elect
in elections under the truthparty um and always never been a
bad truth party no, no,absolutely, um for this, um, at
(34:05):
the height of this, because Imean, of course he's going to
get elected, he's got all ofthese people under his belt, so,
and of course, you, I know, Iknow that, um, no, he, yeah, he,
he doesn't, he doesn't want theelection, he doesn't win the
(34:26):
election.
Ron (34:26):
I was trying to build that up into and of course you heard
about him because he was theleader right and I'm pretty sure
he wasn't, but I could see howhe might have almost been yeah,
he he.
Was it a landslide, or was itclose?
Doug (34:34):
wasn't even close okay, just got, so he's popular, but
yeah, 30 000 russians.
Ron (34:40):
He only takes you so far when you want to be elected in
Japan, I guess it's unfortunate.
Doug (34:46):
Yeah, he doesn't do too well.
This is catastrophic for him,considering what he's running in
this cult Because, as afollower, now that you've been
indoctrinated into the cult, howwould you view your leader if
he's?
Ron (35:05):
not taking well.
Clearly, it's not the leader'sfault, it's the world's fault
there we go.
The world is run by demons andoni and we need to.
I get it now I understand wherethe attacks come from.
Doug (35:22):
Damn it the cult takes a very distinctive turn towards
the apocalypse.
Ron (35:28):
Uh following this, oh, they just want not to overthrow the
government, they just want thewhole apocalypse well, if he's
not elected, it can't be a worldthat's pure good and right oh,
so it's not just so we're notstopping at the nation.
Doug (35:41):
It must be the whole cosmos yeah, this is, that's
correct.
So this moment really takesthings in a dark direction, in
which he essentially says well,only reason that this couldn't
have happened is our world iscoming to an end.
He begins to preach doctrineabout how they are the sole
(36:05):
responsible purveyors, and again, this is like only to his most
enlightened and the ones in theinnermost circle.
Again, this is like only to hismost enlightened and the ones
in the innermost circle.
We are the ones that areresponsible for taking people
into the afterlife and purifyingthe earth of those that would
work against us.
So he takes this verypersonally, to say the least.
And, yeah, everything becomesapocalyptic.
(36:27):
And, um, and the compound thathe um, that they're um, they're
in, they um, the group ofscientists that I brought up
earlier, um, have a.
They have numbered buildings,uh, that are in in the compound
and building.
(36:47):
Six out of the eight that Ibelieve were there.
Building 6 was dedicated to theproduction of chemicals and
gases that could be used inwarfare.
Later, when the compound wasraided, they also found knockoff
Kalashnikovs that were beingbuilt so they could have armed
forces, but their big focus wason producing agents that could
(37:13):
be used to attack and basicallyperform terrorist attacks on
people, which is whereeventually we get the
intersection of when this attackhappens on the subway.
There is a group and it'sinteresting because documentary
(37:33):
outlines that there were eightpeople that were killed in the
Matsumoto region outside ofMount Fuji that had died from
various conditions in whichtheir lungs stopped working or
they experienced tremendousburning in their eyes.
This included people that wereturning on their cars and then
(37:55):
suddenly they went.
The sun turned red.
I couldn't breathe, I couldn'tsee, I had to go inside of the
house and we had to call ahospital immediately, and so
some of these people hadsurvived.
But what they had found is thatthe group was essentially
testing this agent in thesesmaller regions, like these
smaller towns, to see and test,like how effective it would be
(38:16):
in killing people quickly.
And what's interesting is, isthis group, like these deaths
that happen?
They didn't push further intoinvestigation.
A lot of those like were kindof open investigations that they
didn't pay much attention to.
And there's a very strong voiceof people that are outraged in
(38:37):
Japan because had thoseinvestigations been pursued and
looking how close the compoundwas to where they were at, it's
highly possible they maybe couldhave stopped the 1995 attacks,
especially considering thosedeaths had happened in 1994.
It's difficult to say, but thisone is big.
Ron (38:54):
It's kind of like a problem of like, sometimes the
imagination of like the securityforces is not up to task, right
, like, why would you think thisweird guy you saw on TV is
amassing an army?
You know like, until the badthing happens, right, then we
can calibrate and adjust, butthen some new insane bad thing
(39:15):
will always happen, right yeah.
Doug (39:17):
Well, they also had had an incident in 1989.
So this is before he had ran.
The cult was getting tremendouspressure from a lawyer named
Susumi Sakamoto, whospecifically engaged in
anti-cult um, you know, likelawsuits and investigations and
because of some of the suspectbehavior and like the fact that
(39:39):
people were leaving their homes,um, there had been incidents we
haven't even gotten into.
They had found that people havebeen dosed with lsd and also um
, electro um, and they're notquite electroshock that's not
exactly the word but essentiallyelectric probes that are being
installed on people's heads tosimulate LSD while people are
(39:59):
having these yoga experiences.
He begins to research that.
I think something's up here,because we're seeing that so
many people are joining this andthen never leaving the group,
like they just stick with thegroup and then they can't ever
go outside again, which is wherethe cult-like behavior shows up
.
Well, in 1989, tsutsumi Sakamotoand his wife and infant son
(40:23):
were found dead in their home.
He had hammer wounds to hisface.
They had been injecting himwith potassium, potassium
chloride that's the thatbelieved the compound.
Yeah, potassium chloride hadbeen injected into each of them
and the bodies of the um.
They found the lawyer, but thebodies of the son and the wife
(40:46):
were found several years later,split between three different
places, um, in order to kind ofthrow the scent of the police
off.
But the murder of this lawyerclearly would have been
connected, because most of theactivity and the publicity of
him moving forward was dedicatedto this cult.
Him being wiped off the face ofthe earth also could have been
(41:09):
one of these signals,essentially saying like, oh, we
probably shouldn't mess withthem because when um, the, when
the government had changed thatthe emperor was not declared the
religious um, the legalisticreligious group in Japan, that
that was like the, the statemandated religion that people
(41:30):
were in, there was a group.
I need to look up their name.
Ron (41:36):
You're talking about the end of World War II right, yes.
The emperor is forced by theUnited States or Douglas
MacArthur right to revoke hisgod ship.
Yes, his god emperor of Duneship.
He has to give up that card.
He wasn't a worm.
Doug (41:53):
That's the only thing, state Shinto.
Here we are, the Toko or theSpecial Hire Police.
They were also known by theirnicknames the Peace Police or
the Thought Police for any ofyou Orwellians out there that
(42:14):
made sure that they carried outcivil law enforcement,
controlled political groups andideologies that deemed to
threaten the public order of theEmpire of Japan or the godhood
of the emperor.
That just sounds like goodness.
Ron (42:25):
Yeah, I want them.
Don (42:28):
Why don't?
Doug (42:28):
we have more of them.
We need to get back to 1911, to1945.
Ron (42:32):
Japan there's, japan there's never a bad party called
the truth party.
There's never a bad policecalled the thought police.
Don (42:40):
It's like there's a deity of irony that just makes sure
that everything is named.
Ron (42:44):
Yeah, that's right If I just name the thing something
good, they can't possibly be bad.
Doug (42:50):
Yeah that's right, something good, they can't
possibly be bad.
Yeah, that's right.
Um, going back to thedocumentary, it speculates that
because there had been suchtremendous religious enforcement
, I mean with a group called thethought police you can't really
make it up, right that theydidn't want to push too hard on
a group of people that aretrying to start a national
identity with a new religion injapan right, because it would be
(43:11):
perceived as the same.
Ron (43:12):
That's always the the like rub with these sorts of things.
Right, it's like you canclearly look at a lot of cults
and be like this is bad, but youcan't like go and do a waco,
because look what happened atwaco, right?
Like yeah so there's like,there's never.
It seems like a good solutionto these right, there's not, but
it doesn't like was solution tothese Right?
Doug (43:33):
There's not.
It's like wasps.
Ron (43:34):
It doesn't seem to be.
There's no good.
I can't let the wasps live.
It's not going to be good if Igo and get them out either.
Doug (43:44):
Well, march 20th 1995, as I said, they executed their
biggest attack, leading to thedeaths of 13 and thousands who
were injured.
And still, to this day, thereare people that are dealing with
chronic breathing and healthissues from the attack.
(44:06):
Evidence is gathered.
They finally raid the compoundin May of 1995.
And Shoko Asahara is arrestedat that time, finding the
explosive drugs, chemicalweapons and Russian helicopters
as well.
Yes, they were getting ready.
Ron (44:25):
He's making the helicopters yeah, they were putting
together helicopters that theycould.
Scientists suck man.
Keep your scientists well paid,so they don't join a.
Doug (44:36):
Leaders, including asahara , are sentenced to death and,
shockingly, it was the executionof asahara actually only
happened in july of 2018.
Wow, yeah, uh, that's wherewhen those started.
So he was in prison for a verylong time but the trial took
eight years.
Don (44:53):
Oh okay, so I didn't know that yeah, the trial started in
1996 and it wasn't finisheduntil 2004.
Um, because they they triedeach of the 13 counts separately
and so it was a.
It was very complex and therewas there's 13 other leaders
that were also um be on trialfor the same at the same time.
So, um, so yeah, he wasn'tsentenced until 2004.
(45:16):
Um, but even so, the lengthbetween sentencing and the
execution is it's lengthy forJapan standards, the 14 years in
between.
Ron (45:27):
So yeah, this is part of the walking the line of not
wanting to seem to.
They wanted to have all the T'scrossed and I's dotted sort of
thing.
Don (45:37):
Well, they have.
They have appeal processes, forsure, but there's been
conversation that some of itmight have been to delay on
purpose to reduce the likelihoodof martyrdom.
Ron (45:49):
No Right.
Don (45:50):
To just get such old news yeah.
Doug (45:55):
Well of martyrdom.
No right to just get such oldnews.
Yeah, well, another thing toconsider with this is um, it's
interesting going that way,because I actually probably see
it more that way as well.
Um, you would think that inthat moment that he's arrested,
it's time to disband and allthis is gone now, right, of
course, took care of the bad guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good.
No we didn't.
Oh no, the cult has never fullydisappeared.
(46:16):
It may not be identifiedanymore as Am Shinrikyo, but we
do still have a group calledAleph that continues under a
softer image, but very similarcolor beliefs softer image, but
very similar color beliefs andalso the Hikari Noa, which is
the Circle of Light, which is amore reformed group, distancing
(46:42):
itself from the subway attacks.
The reason that this issignificant is the Japanese
government still monitors thesegroups under the Public Security
Intelligence Agency, and thereare still over 1,500 registered
followers that are active inRussia and Japan at this time.
So they are part of thesecurity discourse that Japan
has now, because that was such abroad and publicized attack.
(47:03):
And what's interesting is themessage, although maybe not as
apocalyptic and violent.
There's one of the last thingsthat Shoker was described as
saying to the followers thatweren't captured was the way
that our message can continue isthere should be a public way
that we can speak, so we canstill continue to speak in the
(47:24):
shadows, basically indicatingthat the group should split into
two, that one of the groupsshould be at the forefront
saying that's not how we were atall.
That was a group of extremists,where a smaller group continues
to meet and the interestingthing is, of course, like
between elif and hikari noa,there's not like a discernible
well, is that the bad one?
That's like meeting in theshadow.
(47:44):
It's like, no, they're just twodifferent groups that are
presenting similar ideas thatsaid, well, they had some great
things and they did make thatgreat anime an opening credit
song slapped is that always thecase?
um, but yeah, they're, they're.
They're not completely yes, thename is gone, but they, they do
(48:06):
still have this presence asthis group that is seeking
enlightenment through yoga,deprivation, tremendous
leadership, and I think thatthat's like the only thing that
is there is.
They don't have the same kindof iconic leader in the same way
, but the values are still there, and it brings to question so
many things I think about, like,how do you get there?
(48:28):
And I think you know the ideaof one rejected person is part
of it, right Like, if somebodydoesn't, okay, I'm not the
Messiah and I can't be theleader of Japan as well.
Time to go apocalyptic, I mean,that's, that's one thing, but it
seems, I mean, don you kind ofbrought this up?
We have people that are PhDstudents and PhD grads that are
(48:51):
saying this has got to be it,and I find it, I guess,
troublesome that we see thistime and time again.
I'm not the most versed on allcults, by any means, but there
seems to be this through line oflike, how did we get so many
people to buy into this idea andthen seem to do what to me
seems to be objectively bad inthe world.
There is a logic to it, thoughto me seems to be objectively
bad in the world.
Don (49:12):
It, it there's just, there is a logic to it, though I mean
the the we were identifying andI don't think we we pointed it
out too specifically.
But there are a series of cultsthat all kind of end the same
way, like Heaven's Gate, waco,jonestown, like they all kind of
lead towards the same, you knowconclusion.
And town, like they all kind oflead towards the same, you know
conclusion.
(49:32):
And to those of us who are arethankfully not members of the
cold, it seems like, like whywould you choose that?
Like that's a ridiculous thingto choose Right.
But, um, especially when you'retalking about people who are are
educated and and thoughtful and, and you know, university
scientists, there there's asystem that's broken in the
(49:52):
world and you can identify thatthe system is broken and you can
feel powerless in that systemand so hope is just a delusion
because there's nothing I can do.
But then when you turn to, well, if the system is broken, then
we should burn it down, breakthe system and we'll just start
over, and we'll just start overRight.
And Asahara actually, inaddition to drawing from
(50:17):
Christian mythology and elementsof belief, he also drew from
Hindu mythology and at one pointactually declared himself Shiva
as well as Christ.
You've got to take both.
But that idea in Hindu beliefright, that destruction is not
bad.
Like we're viewing this all asbad because we're not
destruction is necessary so thatnew creation can come in and
(50:37):
fill that space.
And and he, he would tell hisfollowers that we're in that
last stage of Hindu time, the umKali, the Yuga, kali, kali,
yuga, I don't forget.
I mean, it was the, the stageof moral decay.
And so we're doing everyone afavor by bringing them, by
bringing destruction, um, sothat way they don't have to live
in this, uh, this moral decayanymore.
(51:00):
So like there's a logic to itthat that, if that, that I mean
it makes sense.
But I please, please, don't goout and adopt this belief
yourself.
That's not, that's not anadvertisement for the goal, but
like it's just a um, people say,gosh, how could, how could
people have made this decision,and that's that's kind of how
(51:20):
right it's.
It's that it, it gives you atype of empowerment.
It, uh, destruction feels likejustice.
I have a voice again.
Doug (51:27):
Yeah.
Ron (51:28):
Yeah, I do think when we talk about cults, oftentimes we
sort of like victim blame thecultists and you know the people
who get caught up in thesethings.
And it does sort of like yousaid, don, it seems illogical,
but it's not.
And I think there's like I thinkeveryone has a thing they kind
of believe in, a cult like way,whether that's like a group of
(51:51):
people they actually hang outwith or an organization they
actually join, or just a thingthey think about themselves or
the people in their lives, andwe often most of us are
fortunate enough that that thingis not a thing that leads us to
cause self-harm or harm toother people, right?
And then the people that getcaught up in these more famous
kind of tragic cult incidencesjust, uh, just happen to be
(52:15):
right, I think.
I don't think they thinkdifferently than any of us.
They just wrong place, wrongtime Sometimes.
Don (52:21):
I think that I think that it happens more frequently than
we identify however because, um,it's the same thought process.
This was just in, uh, I was justreading an article about this
yesterday.
It's the same thought process.
This was just in uh, I was justreading an article about this
yesterday.
It's the same thought processthat allows, um, uh, white
Americans to justify racism intheir own behaviors and beliefs.
Right, it's that?
Yes, I'm voting for a systemthat, um, that will continue to
(52:45):
oppress me and will take away mysafety net and take away my
benefits, but at least I'm not.
You know this other colorperson.
Doug (52:52):
Yeah.
Don (52:52):
There's a belief system that you are part of the select
few because you can identifywith uh belonging to a larger
group, even though you're notgetting the benefits of of that
group, because you're not.
You know you're othering,you're an insider.
Right and when you're, you'repart of the winning team, you're
the, the, that, that the thewinning remnant, and so like,
(53:15):
even like QAnon.
Right, like QAnon is a weirdexample.
I know we try to usually steerclear of politics here, but so
so, just as an academic example,it doesn't have a charismatic
leader.
No right, there's no, there's no, it's just a belief system that
somehow has flourished onlinebecause the online communication
(53:36):
technology that we have today,that we didn't have in 1995,
allows for that sort of you know, distributed belief system to
to exist without thatcharismatic leader saying this
is what you must do.
Ron (53:47):
I feel like it kind of did.
It's just a very digitalcharismatic leader, Avatar of it
.
Q is just a sort of you cankind of Do you just a very
digital charismatic avatar of it?
Q is just a sort of you cankind of because there is a q?
no, I think, I think there wasonce, but I think there were
multiple qs.
But I think the idea of q isenough, right, the idea of a
leader is enough, and then thatmight even be the most powerful
leader a cult can have, becausethen the members can kind of
(54:09):
superimpose whatever qualitiesthey want on that person.
Don (54:12):
Super dangerous too, because there's no way to turn
it off.
Ron (54:14):
Yeah.
Don (54:15):
Yeah Right, Like we can, we can execute the leader of this
cult, but it you can't executewhen it's distributed.
Ron (54:22):
No, no, but I again, like you said, I think that's just a,
it's a thinking, it's.
It's a kind of thinking any ofus can fall into.
Thinking it's.
It's a kind of thinking any ofus can fall into, um, and
sometimes there's a personshepherding it and sometimes
there isn't right.
Uh and oh, shenrikyo and thebranch davidians and all these
(54:44):
kinds of things.
We're like the.
I think those are easier tounderstand and sometimes grab
our attention more because thereis like such a clear villain at
the center of it.
And then we can kind of likepoint our fingers and wag at him
and be like well, I would neverfall for a guy like that, but
like hey, but you you would, youwould fall for other things,
whether there's a guy or not.
Right, right, right yeah.
Don (55:04):
So dang Well okay, okay, you've talked me out of it.
I don't think any good can comefrom our cult uh, worship
scheme.
Uh, we should just do a patreoninstead.
Doug (55:22):
Okay, you can stay.
Then that's fine, buy us acoffee there's a link on the.
Ron (55:23):
I mean, either way, the audience is still giving us
money.
So that's it, and that's uh thereal goal yeah, no blood though
I am not going to be offeringno, I won't offer blood, but
you'll probably find a weirdpicture of me or something.
Doug (55:35):
Thank you, it reads a lot.
Gentlemen, thanks for talkingto me, about talking with me
about this today.
Ron (55:41):
Thank you for bringing it to our attention, doug, of
course.
Don (55:44):
And hey hand, cannibals, don't forget to subscribe, rate,
review or be cast into theouter darkness, where there is
nothing but weeping, gnashing ofteeth and true crime podcasts
see you later, thank you.
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