"He Was No Arthur": The Footnote That Forged a Crown

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What makes some stories transcend time while others fade away? King Arthur's legend has captivated audiences for over 1,500 years, morphing with each retelling while somehow maintaining its essential power. This fascinating deep dive traces the evolution of Arthurian legend from its misty origins to its modern interpretations.

We begin by exploring the differences between myths and legends. While myths typically explain natural phenomena through sacred stories that remain static, legends grow organically through retellings, adapting to each generation's needs. The Arthurian legend exemplifies this evolution perfectly – what likely began as tales of a skilled warrior fighting Saxon invaders in post-Roman Britain transformed into an elaborate tapestry featuring magical swords, tragic love triangles, and quests for holy artifacts.

Our journey through Arthur's literary history takes us from Victorian poet Alfred Lord Tennyson's moralistic "Idylls of the King" back to Thomas Malory's comprehensive "Le Morte d'Arthur" (1485), which consolidated disparate tales into what we now consider the canonical Arthur story. Going further back, we examine Geoffrey of Monmouth's 12th-century pseudo-historical account before arriving at the earliest reference to Arthur – a simple comparison in a Welsh poem from around 600 CE suggesting Arthur was already famous enough that readers would understand the reference.

The historical hunt for a "real" Arthur leads to tantalizing possibilities. Was he based on Roman cavalry commander Lucius Artorius Castus? Could he have been Ambrosius Aurelianus, a Romano-British war leader mentioned in early accounts? Or perhaps he represents a composite of multiple warriors whose exploits merged in cultural memory? While the evidence remains inconclusive, what's clear is how each society reimagined Arthur to reflect their own values and concerns – from resistance against invaders to models of chivalry and moral leadership.

Whether Arthur pulled a sword from stone or gathered knights at a round table matters less than what his enduring legend reveals about us. As we discuss in this episode, "The stories are true, even though they never happened." Arthur's legend continues to resonate because it speaks to something deeper than historical fact – it captures ideals of leadership, justice, and human frailty that feel eternally relevant, proving that sometimes legends tell us more about ourselves than history ever could.

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Episode Transcript

Don (00:27):
So so not only were the bones human, they were
alphabetized.

Ron (00:33):
Yeah, that's creepy that's a very kind of them I appreciate
it.

Doug (00:37):
I need to open my textbook for that one.
Again, I wouldn't have done agood job yeah, yeah, it's a lot
work.

Ron (00:43):
At least they help you remember your letters.

Doug (00:48):
Wishbone is letter Y if you look at it close enough.

Don (00:51):
Yeah.

Doug (00:52):
Yeah.

Don (00:52):
Where's your wishbone In my heart?

Ron (00:58):
My collar.
It is in your collar.
Break me open and make a wishbaby.
I tell my wife when I'm past myprime.

Don (01:10):
Well, on that note, welcome everybody back to the Uncannery
.
I'm Don, I'm Doug and I'm Ron,and we're glad that you're
joining us again for thisconversation about breaking
Ron's chest open.

Ron (01:25):
You signed up for this listener.

Don (01:27):
Indeed.

Ron (01:29):
You can go find an NPR podcast.

Don (01:31):
We're going to talk about some legends today.

Ron (01:32):
you guys, I love legends Me too.

Doug (01:35):
Yeah, I love the film legend as well.

Ron (01:37):
Legends are legitimately cool.

Doug (01:39):
Yeah.

Ron (01:40):
It's kind of weird that they exist at all, right?
Is that a weird quirk of humanpsychology?
We even have legends.
It kind of weird that theyexist at all, right?
Is it a weird quirk of humanpsychology?
We?

Don (01:46):
even have legends, it kind of is, especially when we look
at how they change over time.

Doug (01:50):
I think and I mean, I think we're talking about
legends in terms of a tale, butwe also describe things as being
legendary.

Ron (02:00):
Right, because we think they're tale worthy.
I will tell a tale of thesewings.
These wings are legendary and Itail worthy.
Yeah Right, I will tell tale ofthese wings.
Right, these wings arelegendary, yeah.

Don (02:08):
And I often do.
Yeah, and and another quirk ofhuman psychology, as long as you
brought that up right, is thisthat we all have for you guys to
, to, to start us off is aslegends in our own minds?
And when future generationstell the legend of you.

(02:32):
What do you want to bedifferent about your story?
What do you want them to getwrong?

Ron (02:40):
That every man and woman in his company left satisfied.

Don (02:48):
Ron, this is a rated PG podcast.

Ron (02:51):
You can be satisfied in many ways Satisfied in this
conversation, satisfied with theattention he paid them,
satisfied in the money he gavethem.

Doug (03:01):
Yeah, satisfied in the company of sharing a donut
together.

Don (03:04):
You never know.

Doug (03:07):
Wow, yeah, I mean, I've always been satisfied.
So thank you, I don't know,I'll take a moment.

Ron (03:11):
You're what I call a good legend spreader trying to cut
out bad legends from my life,that's good, very selective in
your legend spreader.

Don (03:21):
So yeah, choosing yeah.

Doug (03:25):
Um, I think as a new dad I've been working on um some of
my scary dad aura.
I've tried to bring that in ofjust, uh, the more haunted part
of me.
That's like I.
You have to, I don't know.
There's just a part of me thatthinks got to kind of start to
conjure the presence that whenmy son is about to do something

(03:46):
devious with his friends, hegoes.
My dad will get so mad.
You've met my dad right.
I feel like that's somethingthat's important.
Yes, Please, keep cultivating.
I'm going to see what I can do.
So along those lines, I'mhoping that maybe it's the X-Men
fan in in me, but I want to beremembered as having like
mutations, that's that's what Iwant.

Don (04:07):
To be wrong like 12, like six toes.

Ron (04:11):
You know my dad, you know how scary he is.
He's got 12 toes exactly heturns into a toad.

Doug (04:20):
He runs faster than anyone .
With that extra toe, exactly,yeah.
So mutations would be great.
Extra eyeballs Other years, tohear you with my dear Speaking
of legends A good legend doeshave a sort of has a physical
quality to them usually right.

Don (04:38):
That sets them apart.

Ron (04:39):
Maybe it's just physical prowess, or they're incredibly
tall, or like Andre the Giant hewas so big.
He was a freakishly large manor the elephant man, right.

Don (04:52):
Both of which are real human beings, right, but then,
like Paul Bunyan, would be thelegend.

Ron (04:57):
Literally the tall town, but they have like legendary
status.
I think so.
Do you think a real personcan't become a legend?

Don (05:05):
I just was clarifying that those like those are real people
.
Like I can.
I can pull up a picture ofandre the giant, and and yeah,
but it's not not the same aspulling up an illustration of
paul bunyan?

Ron (05:15):
but there can be like a transformation, right like
non-fiction becomes I don't knowwhat do you think adopts
fictional qualities there's athere's, there's a certain type
of fidelity that is, you know,forgotten, partly forgotten but

(05:45):
like I feel like parts of theirpersonality remain in the, in
the imagination, and maybe getinflated beyond George
Washington.

Don (05:52):
Yeah, exactly Right.

Ron (05:53):
Like oh, his teeth were his main thing.

Don (05:58):
When I think about the legend of George Washington, the
cherry tree is what I think of.
Yeah, I think of his teeth, hishippopotamus teeth.

Doug (06:06):
Yeah, definitely.

Ron (06:08):
We just grew up in different neighborhoods, I guess
.

Doug (06:11):
Don and I were over on Cherry Lane.
Yeah, I think of legendary andagain real person but gets
conflated to legend, the samuraiMiyamoto Musashi, are either of
you familiar?
No, probably worth revisiting.
Um, at a certain point,although many have talked about
him, but just famous as um manywould describe, would would give

(06:36):
him the title as the greatestswordsman of all time because he
defeated so many people insingle-handed combat, left
behind a book called the book offive rings, talking about how
to engage in combat and learn tobe a great warrior in that
sense.
And again historical figure,but very much kind of legendary
in the way that he's portrayedin art.
And and again no photograph,and this was a very long time

(06:59):
ago, of course, before all ofthat.
But I feel like he's passedinto something that almost
represents more of um, kind ofkind of a mythical, you know,
samurai type of a figure.

Ron (07:09):
Yeah.
And what will people get wrongabout your legend, Don yeah?

Don (07:14):
You know, there's there.
We've mentioned before thatwe're all educators and, uh,
there's actually, I think, alegend that kind of is attached
already that I like to cultivate, um, there, even, and it's it's
attached to that scary dad, oryou're talking about doug right
like I think that, uh, that,that, uh, I'm kind of known as a
scary, oh scary educator and Idon't know why, like I've never

(07:38):
I've never been mean or oranything, and so uh, but I it's
fine, like it's a good thing tocultivate, yeah, um, so uh, so
they can learn how nice I am.
Later it's coming to be.
It's definitely better that way, yeah, than the opposite, it's
true yeah, yeah, if you're thenice guy, it's hard to be the
scary guy, absolutely I'm gonnabe scary now don't make me go

(08:01):
scary absolutely you want it,you got it.
It's never good yeah, well, sowe can, so we can.
Can circle around on this alittle bit like what, what
legends you think of?
We've mentioned paul bunyan.
Okay, yeah, I don't knowanything about pico's bill,
except that he is associatedwith paul bunyan because those
stories are together.
I think it's because they werecartoons together, yeah, at some

(08:22):
point.
Yeah, what other, uh, who elsedo you think of when you think
of legends?

Ron (08:27):
um, who was the guy that was building the railways?
What's that guy's name so many?

Doug (08:33):
guys, where do you want to start?

Ron (08:34):
there's one right, and he was.
He was like the strongest dude.
He could drive a rail pile, youknow, in one swoop, and
eventually he died.
I think he worked himself todeath, or or the man worked
himself to death, or worked himto death.
Who am I thinking of?

Don (08:50):
John.

Ron (08:50):
Henry.
Yes, john Henry yeah.

Doug (08:53):
Yeah, think of legendary cowboys.
That's a big one.
You know like things like JesseJames, billy the Kid, billy the
Kid right, billy the Kid's abig one.
You know like, uh, things likeJesse James, billy the kid,
billy the kid Right, um, billy,your kids are killing.
Yeah, and another example ofreal people.
But then the legend continueson and continues to inflate.

(09:16):
Uh, you brought up Andre thegiant.
Of course I'm going to throwBrett Hart in there.
You know, incredibleprofessional wrestler that we
all have a lot of respect for inthis room.

Ron (09:25):
We should probably also throw rick priestly, the guy who
wrote the first edition of thewarhammer, just get all our
people, blanche great artist.

Doug (09:36):
That's right, um no, but I okay, but I will say this.
There's all of that to say.
I think that I instantly go.
It needs to be older, though.
Yeah, there's something,there's something inherent.

Ron (09:53):
These are all American legends, right, and I think the
American legend I think I thinklooms large in the American
psyche but is has a certain is alittle rubs, a little too close
to reality.
Sometimes, if I can see apicture of Billy the Kid, he
becomes less cool, you know.

Doug (10:08):
Right, right yeah.

Don (10:10):
I agree with that.
All right, and we have aninternational audience, so it's
all right.
Cast the net wider.
What international legends?

Doug (10:18):
Do we get into mythology as well?
Sure, Because I mean.

Ron (10:22):
Is a myth, a legend.
Yeah, there's got mythology aswell, sure, because I mean,
there's a myth of legend.
There's gotta be a differencethere, right?

Doug (10:26):
I don't know, I think, myth, I feel like I've wrestled
with this before and I don'tknow where I'll either.
Yeah, I mean at least for myown personal, if you're asking
me in the chair right now, where, where?

Ron (10:37):
do you sit with?
You're in the chair, you'relocked in.

Doug (10:39):
I'm actually on the couch, but that's fine.
No, you're locked, okay.
Um, big lighting your face.
I'm thinking that I'm sweating.
Mythology.
I immediately attribute to thestructure of how the story's
told.
I think, I think about that,that it's.
It's about it having somegreater significance yeah,
almost a parable.

(10:59):
Like almost a parable almostreligious connotation in a sense
so like hercules right myth orlegend or both I, I think both,
whereas legend, I think of thefact that it has a certain
amount of universal appeal.

Ron (11:17):
I think what is a legend?
Now, I'm just confused.
Yeah, I think, I think a legend.

Don (11:21):
I think hercules is a legend that exists in the
context of mythology.
Okay so mythology right, We'vegot explanatory myths, so
they're based in in the naturalworld and explaining why natural
phenomenon are what they are.
and they are a religionoriginally Um, and so it was a
religious way to explainphenomenon that you did not know
.
Right, we're legends, and Ithink Hercules is a good example

(11:43):
of one of one.
Right, it's a story thatdescribes an extraordinary deed
or an extraordinary event, or anextraordinary person that is
then involved in a series ofthose deeds and events.
Yeah, so the mythology has moreof the belief system attached.
Where the legend is is just astory.
However, I think what you saidabout the societal purpose of
both of them is very closelylinked, and I think that's.

(12:03):
I think it's actually somethingwe're gonna be talking about a
little bit later today.

Doug (12:07):
Oh yeah, do you have a legend, you guys?
You guys are good at this.

Don (12:10):
You dance so close to what I want, to what I want to talk
about so, or are you a greatquestion, asker?

Doug (12:15):
we don't know, we don't know.
Would you say it's a legendary?
It might be.
We'll tell you at the end ofthis podcast keep listening
folks.
This next sponsor is brought toyou by Folgers coffee the word
legend, though, is immediatelyinterest grabbing.

Ron (12:31):
Oh yeah.
If someone says like I got alegend, I'm like, oh yeah, like
I want to hear what's going,what there's something about the
.
If you made it into legend,right, it has to have been such
an extraordinary or interestingor dynamite kind of persona or
event, right?

Don (12:49):
Yeah.
There are some things you justgot to know about, and a myth is
a sacred story that explainswhy the world is the way it is.
A legend is a story that growsthrough whispers about what
might have happened or how itmight have happened.
Right, so it.
It kind of has the ability togrow over time and in a way,

(13:12):
that myth doesn't grow over time.

Ron (13:14):
Right, and it's remains relatively static, right, like
we.
We don't change what we thinkabout the odyssey.
The odyssey is just the odyssey.
You can present that with likesome new set dressing right, but
you're not gonna like yeah,even in its structure.

Doug (13:30):
I want to hear book 17.
Yeah, you want to hear exactlywhat's happening in book 17.

Ron (13:35):
Yeah makes sense.
He's gotta hug his boy.
You know, he's gotta, he'sgotta good guess, mess up the
suitors yep, which one's theseventh?
Isn't that when he gets back, Idon't know how many books for
him?
Is that the end?

Doug (13:50):
I was just finishing up the Iliad.
I think there's 24, if I'mright.
So yeah, I don't know, odyssey,I'll have to go back.

Don (13:56):
What if we went to England?

Ron (13:58):
Legends you know about.

Don (13:59):
England.

Ron (14:01):
Dreary, dismal capitalist country, that's not legend.
That's just description Legendsfrom the Isles Beowulf, beowulf
, king Arthur Big guy.

Don (14:21):
When was King Arthur king?

Doug (14:26):
Medieval times.

Don (14:29):
Before Henry VIII or after Henry Before Way before.

Ron (14:33):
He's an antiquity king, I'm gonna say Antiquity he's.
I'm gonna say before the MiddleAges.
I'm gonna say oh, no, I know, Ifeel like, okay, before the
Norman Conquest there was a kingarthur yeah, oh oh well,
probably before the anglo-saxons, I'll say too and I wouldn't be

(14:56):
so bold to even start.

Doug (14:57):
That's my bet to enter this put money before anything.

Ron (15:00):
But you guys know about king arthur, yeah, all right, so
tell me what you know roundtable pizza round boy he had a
wizard who could turn him intoan owl, and sometimes a squirrel
how do you know those things?
Because the sword in the stonewas my favorite movie as a young
child.
The disney really neededadaptation of these tales, yeah,

(15:22):
um, yeah, merlin the wizard ishis, is his advisor.
He, at a very young age, pullsa sword out of a stone and that
means he is going to be the king.
It's a sort of prophecyscenario Excalibur.
I don't know actually whathappens once he's king.
I really only know the likeorigin story.

(15:42):
Guinevere shows up.

Doug (15:44):
Oh, yeah, he has his knights.

Ron (15:46):
One of them betrays them and sleeps with Guinevere.
Galahad, Lancelot.

Don (15:53):
He just named Galahad Lancelot.
He just named it Galahad sleptwith Guinevere.

Doug (15:55):
Is that what you just said yeah, that's a good one.
We're really slow at reaching10.

Ron (15:58):
One of them, Galahad the perfect knight Perfect.
Yeah, I said Galahad.
I thought that was the.
It's an exploration of thehypocrisy of the knightly cast.

Doug (16:06):
No, it has to be a guy whose name is Lanc lot, which
I've always found very funny.
He's out there lancing thatmakes sense.

Ron (16:11):
Yeah, they call him lance a lot um.

Doug (16:14):
My wife is actually obsessed with the uh television
show merlin, so she we saw yeah,that's pretty good with john
hurts the dragon I, I have notwatched it at all.
I just know you boot that up formy wife.
She's going to be entertained.
Get the popcorn.
Um, and I know that the certainamount of betrayal and romance

(16:35):
and chivalry that's involved isenough to keep her going.
She, she really enjoyed it, tosay the least.
Um, many a quest, just many aquest, is what I think of the
holy grail of course, but it's atragedy too, right, because,
yes, his reign ends before histime.

Ron (16:49):
He's betrayed by his sister or one of the witches or
something, or a god's son Ithink it depends on the version
if I remember correctly, butyeah, are you thinking of
morgana?
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Doug (17:01):
Morgana lefay, yeah, yeah, yeah okay, yeah, uh, what else
we got here?

Don (17:07):
all right, let's, let's uh you.
You mentioned sword in thestone.
Yeah, which is disney movie?

Doug (17:12):
yep um and disneyland, you can also try to pull the show.

Don (17:16):
You can try to pull the sword out of stone in disneyland
or stay at the casino in lasvegas, that's right um sword in
the stone is actually based on anovel.
Do you know which?

Ron (17:30):
uh, is it once in future king?
It is by, by th white, oh sothat's very late in the game.

Don (17:36):
I'm assuming it is development that's 1958 so okay
um, so arthur's been around fora little while.
Um sort of the show is just thefirst section of of white's
book.
Um, but white's book is superinteresting, so big, big
recommendation if you haven'tread it yet.
Um, but the the stuff withchanging into animals is in
there and that's all the magicalfirst part of the ones in

(17:58):
Future King.

Ron (17:59):
Well, we say that's the most like contemporary spin on
the Arthur legend.
I mean, I'm sure there's like athousand young adult novels
that are adding things, but likethat's the last big one, right?

Don (18:09):
I wouldn't say so.
I think it's super important,one no-transcript Morgan Le

(18:36):
Fay's point of view, yeah, um,and create some interesting
tensions between Lancelot andArthur that don't quite exist in
other versions of it because ofthat focus on the, the feminist
telling of it.
Um, she introduces Arthur as,uh, he was their King, but was
also his mother's son, hissister's lover, their people's

(18:57):
pawn in a game they barelyunderstood, right.
So what a great taglinecategorizes everything in in
context of the female uhcharacters yeah which have
gotten some short shrift foryeah, a good section.

Doug (19:10):
I very much remember my first initial reading going
through Le Morte d'Arthur andjust thinking, like this is so
much original sin, like it's somuch like.
And then the woman ruined itagain with a temptation and wily
ways.
So, yeah, I could see thatbeing a necessary addition.

Don (19:29):
Yeah, so credit to both of them.
White's novel is really good atpresenting these pithy little
nuggets of of wisdom.
Um, so, in a lot of it's in thefirst section, because because
you're right, ron the story doeslead to an eventual downfall.
But uh, merlin used to saythings like merlin said, the
only way to achieve power is notto want it.

(19:50):
That was a lesson he neverforgot, even when they bowed and
called him majesty.
Yeah, we need more of that inthe world.
Sure, yeah for sure.

Ron (20:00):
That's beautiful so then do we think like the Arthur story
is a sort of story aboutkingship and leadership, and
like the sort of dream of apeople for like who should rule
over them?
I think Arthur exhibit allthose qualities.

Doug (20:15):
Dying you were about to say I well, again, it's a, it's
a reading of Lamar, that'sseveral.
I mean it's like it's beenalmost a decade, but I would say
I remember feeling very muchthat it was almost biblical and
its portrayal of the eventualfailure of humanity to do the
right thing, like when despairhits, and like there's a certain

(20:37):
level of despair that peoplewill selfishly choose to go in a
certain way.
And Arthur, because he is sopure, often is the one who's
kind of sacrificed in thepursuit of that and that he
tries to continue to be noble,but his people want more,
especially his nights.
His nights will want more andthe table falls apart, uh,
because of it.
Um, I remember a climacticbattle, I remember fatal

(21:01):
wounding, and then we shouldremember him as what we the, the
better that we should have been, and then the remembrance of
him is kind of what they used toinspire that england takes so
many of their values and virtuefrom the fact that they try to
pursue the england that arthurwanted.
Did I do an okay job at that?

Don (21:20):
I think you did a good job, okay, thank you that was off
the cuff from decade old I thinkyeah, I think that we need to
circle back to this questionover and over again, though,
because okay kind of it remindsme of our alien episode, right
where we have this culturalprojection over time, so yeah I
think because there's been.
I mean, we didn't talk aboutthem, but there's been a minor

(21:43):
resurgence in arthurian moviesrecently.
Yeah and I think there's likethree or four of them between
2000 and 2012 or so.

Ron (21:51):
Right yeah, the last one I saw was the one where he was
like a Roman uh, kira Knightleyand the guy who's not Gerard
Butler.

Doug (22:03):
It looks like the dude from children of men.

Ron (22:06):
Oh, who am I talking about?
Um Clive Owen Clive.

Doug (22:10):
Owen yeah.

Don (22:11):
Yes, for sure that there's first night with jean-connery.
There's, uh, there's been.
There was another king arthur.
That was not a roman one, butbut I remember that yeah, guy
ritchie's or something um so.
So again, we keep like thislegend doesn't go away ever, it
just kind of recirculates everyso often.
But I think, I think the thereason that we tell the story

(22:33):
keeps changing over time.
And I think we'll see that aswe go further back, because
we've got a little ways to go.
We've only made it to 1958 sofar.
Sure, sure Big story.
Before that Next one going backOne would be Alfred Lord
Tennyson.
Oh okay, victorian poet.
He was a poet laureate afterWordsworth in England and his
version of it is called theIdols of the King, or the Idols

(22:55):
of the King I think is the morecorrect pronunciation, but I
like I it always slips out idolsfor me.
And so it's told in verse andit's it's the arc that you know,
right?
It's it's sword in the stoneand Arthur becomes king and
falls in love with Guinevere andthe whole Morgaz Mordred
situation pops up.
But then he has his best friend, lancelot, who starts sleeping

(23:16):
with his wife, right?
So everyone remembers the lovetriangles.
Arthur is married to his queen,guinevere.
A knight comes over from Francenamed Lancelot.
Lancelot and Arthur become bestfriends, but in that process
Lancelot also falls in love withGuinevere.

Doug (23:31):
And something we haven't talked about that I do remember
is there's also a propheticspeaking over the marriage,
correct?
And I don't know if this is allversions, but there's a
prophetic speaking over themarriage.
This is not going to end wellfor you if you marry this woman,
because I think he's captivatedso much by her beauty and
kindness, correct?
And he says, oh, I must marryher, and it's like, no, this is

(23:54):
not going to bode well if youdecide to marry this woman.

Don (23:55):
if I remember correctly, there are versions where that
happened.
Um, let me see how far backthat goes.
Um the uh, he does, yeah.
So, yeah, it's merlin thatwarns him, and it goes back
pretty far actually.
So there's mallory version,okay, yeah, which is 1485.

Doug (24:11):
We'll get to yeah, sorry skipping ahead there.
I know we're skipping backskipping back.

Don (24:15):
I know we're going.
We're going.
Which way are we going toYou're?

Doug (24:17):
going back in time.
Thank you, Knott's Berry farmfor many years of the dinosaur
right.

Don (24:24):
The thing that I find funny about reading Tennyson is he's
writing as a a love trianglewhere the best friend is
cheating, sleeping with the wifeof the other best friend Right,
and so he uh, he has to be veryVictorian about that, and so
there's nothing explicit in thetext.
It's just like Lancelot andGuinevere like go off in the
forest for a walk and they comeback and she's got like twigs in

(24:45):
her hair and her dress iscrumpled but like nobody ever
talks about what happened outthere, right, we're just
supposed to know, to know, um.
so he's very sort of uhrestrained in that, that telling
of the story.
What's?

Ron (24:57):
tennyson's interest in the material like I don't know.
Is it just a sort of like, oh,is this like early tennyson?
Is this tennyson at the heightof his powers?
Or is it just like everyone'sgot to do a mythic cycle?
You know their spin on it.
He's just sort of dusting offthe cobwebs, kind of thing.

Don (25:14):
Well, he nobody had for quite a long time.
So, um, so he's.
He's picking up a story thatthat has been ignored for
several hundred years yeah,there's a potential like
nationalist sort of return toengland's folk roots and things
what.
And there's a there's a moralthread that runs through arthur

(25:36):
and victorians were were.
That was a societal worry, wasabout the morality of the nation
, especially with the industrialrevolution we've got a female
queen rather than a male leader,right, so we're having to make
all these adjustments andthere's this concern about
whether or not, you know, how dowe keep the world right in that
situation and how do we keepthe world just so?
I think that's his interest isin making sure that, um, his

(25:59):
arthur embodies the ideal ruler.
Yeah, so, and it's, it's ratherearly in victoria's reign, uh,
it's.
Uh, it's published in, uh, 1840something, and she becomes
queen in 1838, I think.
Okay, eight or nine, um, soit's not quite instructive to
the queen.
I don't think he's thatpresumptuous right, but but as a

(26:20):
message to society about how doyou, um, how do you be the
ideal ruler, how do you maintainmorality in a society that is
pushing you the other way?
Um, so it's, it's typicalvictorian instructionism yeah,
disguised as a story.

Doug (26:36):
So yeah, can I throw a curveball real quick, please?
And I would like us toimmediately go.
No, if you know nothing aboutit, but I'm just remembering
this off the top of my head.
Was there not a mark twainentry into yeah?

Don (26:52):
uh, yeah, yankee, and carter's court.

Doug (26:53):
That's what it is.

Don (26:54):
Yeah, I have not read, I am not familiar which starts the
time travel version of the kingarthur story okay, okay.

Doug (27:02):
So there's that as well, it's just not considered it.

Don (27:05):
it's not considered part of the arthur canon for the
arthurian part of it because itarthur's not the main character
of the story.
The Connecticut Yankee is theis the, so it's an American
story and he's going back to theokay.
He's going which way?

Doug (27:23):
Back in time, okay.

Ron (27:26):
So I can't show up at the Arthur convention and talk about
Connecticut Yankee.
They're going to be like oh,this guy.

Don (27:31):
Yeah, probably.
I mean, you can try, I've neverbeen bringing his connecticut
yankee.

Doug (27:36):
What a deep cut, though, if it's like comic con and
everybody's cosplayed up andyou're, there's a connecticut
yankee you're gonna get a fewpeople.
They're like oh, very creative,very deep cut there, sir, yeah,
okay, yeah, I'll add that to myreading list, then that'll be
interesting so so that'stennyson, but, like I said,
there's this big blank spotbetween tennyson 1840 and the,

(27:58):
the previous major arthuriantext.

Don (28:01):
Want to guess how far?
200, 200 years to 1640, 201,bob playing the prices right,
the price is right 1485.
Okay, yeah, it goes back a longway and I think again it's.

(28:21):
It's part of what we were justtalking about about the legend
being mapped onto society needs.

Doug (28:23):
Yeah, yeah.

Don (28:24):
Um, during the Renaissance, like we didn't care about
Arthur because it was, we weregoing more cultural and and
scientific and right, so wedidn't need the story as much
still existed.
Uh, queen elizabeth um tracedher lineage back to king arthur.
Um, jeffrey monmouth, who we'lltalk about in a little bit, was
still read as history in therenaissance.

(28:44):
That's cool, um, by some peoplestarting to be questioned by
others.
But, um, so uh and um.
But do you know?
You said you've read Mallory.
Have you read Mallory?

Ron (28:54):
I read some of it and never finished it.
Yeah, let's get you back inthere.

Don (28:59):
Do you know?

Doug (28:59):
anything about Mallory himself?
Not really.
Um, I just remember when,originally reading it, it was
considered by my professor asbeing one of the more
comprehensive in terms oflooking at different battles and
cultural context within theFrench and English connotation
of the more comprehensive interms of looking at different
battles and cultural contextwithin the French and English
connotation of the text.
That's what I was given at thetime.

Don (29:20):
I enjoyed it though.
So Mallory was a knight in theWars of the Roses, and he was
put in prison by both sides.
It happened a lot in that war.

Ron (29:32):
right yeah, Can you give us a quick?

Doug (29:33):
in that war.

Ron (29:33):
right, yeah, can you give us a quick rundown.

Doug (29:35):
Yeah.

Ron (29:35):
I understand the war of the roses is it's like a very
internecine sort of battleamongst the aristocracy in
England.
Is that wrong?

Don (29:43):
Um, well, I mean, they were the ones trying to get the
power, but most of the battlewas happening between people
less important than them.
And than them, and it'sactually called the wars of the
roses plural, right, because itgoes for like 40 years.
Henry vi, uh, who was crownedas a nine-month-old baby, um
against edward iv, so, and theyflip-flop twice.

(30:04):
So it's henry vi, usurped,re-usurps back, and then for one
year, and then edward comesback and winds up killing him or
so he dies mysteriously in jailand we all know, maybe murdered
, maybe not.

Ron (30:19):
Jeffries, imprisoned by both sides because he flips his
opinion as political rape amurder for actual crime
attempted banditry, robbery,breaking out of jail.

Don (30:36):
But he also was a Lancastrian, so he was on the
side of Henry VI.
So when he was imprisoned byEdward IV for that reason, I see
, but both sides, for differentreasons, imprisoned him at
different points- All of hiscrimes.

Doug (30:50):
The reason that knights needed a code of chivalry.

Don (30:52):
Yeah, yeah, which might be one of the reasons that he
undertook a task, so he didwrite what today is kind of
considered the canon of KingArthur literature.
So when you're in prison,you've got to do something.

Doug (31:04):
Yeah, why not Time to write?

Don (31:05):
Yeah, time to write.
So what he did actually wastake a lot of the earlier
stories that we haven't talkedto yet about yet because it's
about to get messy.
So, like this has been a prettystraight line we've been
threading for the last half houror so.
It's going to get messy as wego further back in time.
But what Mallory does, and whyhe's sort of this, this dividing
line is he takes those olderstories, which are are

(31:27):
inconsistent and don't alwayshave the same cast of characters
, and assign different, uh,assign the same actions to
different people, and he kind oftries to clean that up and he
says, okay, this is, this is thefilter through which the story
will, will now be told.
So, um, he has the major arc,which is the uh, how Arthur
becomes King, um, the, the um,the individual night stories, uh

(31:52):
, the quest for the Holy grail,lancelot, the love triangle, and
then the decline of Arthur when, um, lancelot and Guinevere are
caught in there.
Yeah, so um that precipitatesthe decline it does because, um,
uh, arthur is like if it werejust up to him, he wouldn't
punish either of them personally, personally, he loves both of

(32:13):
them.
Yeah, but the rule of law hasto.

Ron (32:17):
It's very progressive.
Maybe we need Arthur back, sohe has to sentence Guinevere to
death.

Don (32:23):
Oh, but in doing so he hopes that Lancelot is going to
come kidnap her Right?
So there's like this and hedoes, he does.

Ron (32:30):
Yeah.

Doug (32:34):
I got to read.

Don (32:34):
Arthur like this and he does.
Uh, he does.
Yeah, yeah, I gotta read arthur, it's pretty, it's pretty good.
Yeah, so he does.
Uh, lancelot comes and kidnapsher, but then uh, mordred
convinces arthur that he has togo chase it.
Like you can't just let him go.
Arthur again would have justlike oh too, you know it's kind
of like a excuse.
I've heard recently like oh,he's in a different country, I
can't go get him in france rightI have no jurisdiction.
Yeah, but Mordred convinces himto do so.

(32:56):
And then, when Arthur is out ofthe country besieging Lancelot
to try to retrieve Guinevere,Mordred takes over, crowns
himself king.
So then Arthur's got to comeback and fight his own son for,
and in the battle they wind upkilling each other.

Doug (33:14):
Yeah.

Don (33:14):
That's it, yeah With oh my gosh, uh with King Arthur spear.

Ron (33:22):
Uh, you mean his sword, Excalibur no Um no, I don't run,
I don't.

Don (33:29):
King Arthur takes a spear and stabs Mordred, and then
Mordred runs down the spear inorder to stab Arthur in the head
.
And King Arthur's spear has aname You'll never guess King
Arthur's spear's name.

Ron (33:44):
It's like Sun Foe, whoa Sun Slayer.

Don (33:52):
If it were an Anglo-Saxon text, I think you'd be right.
But no Dog.
Do you know King Arthur Spear'sname?
Spear of Destiny?
You know his sword's name?

Ron (33:57):
There's probably a tank named after it today.
Is it Abram?

Don (34:02):
It's Rungomiant.
I know it was close, but mostpeople just call it Ron for
short.
Hey.

Doug (34:11):
I always knew you were sharp as a spear bud.

Ron (34:13):
I feel like that's a.
Whenever I look up the meaningof my name, there's always, like
feller of the King, King killershows up some in some
interpretations.

Doug (34:23):
Now we know that's it, that's it.

Don (34:25):
So that's the, that's the general story, right, that the
general arc.
And then underneath that, likeI said, we have these single
night adventures where, yeah,the general arc.
And then underneath that, likeI said, we have these single
night adventures where, yeah, uh, gallen will go out and and
search for a treasure and comeback and all of them like had
virtues attached to them, likethey were exceptional in certain
respects and challenged morallyin certain respects, and so a
lot of the single night.

(34:46):
Um uh, stories deal with thatvery issue the night being
morally challenged and having tomake a choice, yeah, and then
hopefully coming out better onthe other side of it, galahad
being the only night who nevermade a mistake.

Doug (34:58):
Yeah, I was going to say they almost always blow it,
which is part of the fun, Ithink, because it's like the,
the compromise that they makemakes them very human.

Don (35:06):
Yeah, and Mordred I mentioned is King Arthur's son.

Ron (35:14):
Do you know who the mother?

Don (35:14):
is.

Ron (35:14):
I thought that he's like an incest son right or, yeah, an
incest son with, with morgana orsomething right.

Don (35:17):
I've seen this in the sam neill television series so,
according to mallory, withmorgana's, who is one of
arthur's half sisters.
So arthur has a, has a magicalorigin as well.
So do you know where arthurcomes from?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, pendragon,yeah, yeah uther pendragon falls

(35:42):
in love with a grain uh, who'salready married to gorlo and uh,
and has merlin disguise himlike her that's right, magically
, so that he could sleep withher.

Doug (35:52):
Yeah.

Don (35:53):
And Arthur is the product of that rape.
Um, and so she already hadthree daughters, um, one's named
Morgana, one is named moregauze and one's named Anna.
And uh, uh, in the story theyall kind of hate Arthur because
he's the product of the rape oftheir mother.

Doug (36:11):
Right, right.

Don (36:11):
Their dad.
Right, their dad dies in abattle and and uther does wind
up marrying ingrain, but um, sofor that reason his sisters
never really like him.
And so, yeah, in uh mallorythere's a a ritual of fertility
that arthur somehow accidentallysleeps with his sister, and uh,

(36:32):
that's where Mordred comes from.

Doug (36:33):
So this is taking me back to the film Excalibur
Immediately.
I remember that from thebeginning the disguise, it's so
ridiculous, yeah, yeah.

Don (36:41):
So then we got to go back a little bit further.
So that's Mallory and, like Isaid, from here on out it gets a
little bit messy.

Doug (36:47):
So Mallory was kind stories.

Don (36:58):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, um, the next, uh, thenext one going backwards
probably need to talk about isjeffrey of monmouth, um, which
writes in about 11, 36 or so.
Okay, um, he goes by his firstname, so we can call him just
jeffrey and everybody will knowwho we're talking about.

Ron (37:15):
Thanks, jeff that's rare for that time period sure it is
well.

Don (37:19):
He just didn't write down his last name, so yeah.
But he writes a book called thehistoria regum britanniae, in
latin, which is a history of thekings of britain.
That's what it means.
So he's writing about all thekings of britain, and guess
who's stuck there right in themiddle?
Papa arthur.

Ron (37:35):
That's him, yeah um, so do we have?
Because I feel like part of thearthur thing is like the debate
Was there an Arthur?
Is there a historical Arthur?
Blah, blah, blah, right In thisin Geoffrey's tale, is he
cemented amongst real kings?
Yes, he's the only fictionalking, or one of several.

Don (37:56):
He is a king in the list of kings described by Geoffrey and
that's it.
There's no story.
There's no, there are stories,but you're asking if he's a
fictional king and this is ahistory book and Arthur's in it.

Ron (38:09):
Oh sure, but I mean.

Don (38:11):
Don't poo-poo me.

Ron (38:13):
What I mean is I use shorthand to express that we
don't have a lot of otherhistorical evidence
corroborating his existence atthis time.

Don (38:23):
That's what we're searching for.
That's why we keep going back.

Ron (38:25):
And I'm searching.
I'm here, I got my binocularsRight, but I just wanted to
clarify that, like there arekings in that book that we like,
yes, we have other codices orlaws with their names on it and
stuff like that there are realhistorical kings in Jeffrey's
book Okay laws with their nameson it and stuff like that.

Don (38:43):
There are.
There are real historical Kingsin Jeffrey's book.
Okay, um, in, in, um, in uh.
This book, the it's much morefactual.
He claims he's.
He's translating from anearlier Welsh text, um, and so
he just kind of says things likeum, arthur was a youth of 15
years old, beautiful and gallant, who gave eminent proofs of his

(39:04):
bravery and generosity.
So okay, there you go.

Ron (39:05):
He's brave and generous so it's got to be real.
That's what you get.

Don (39:09):
And young right, he was a youth okay, um, he also is
killed in battle.
Uh, he was grievously woundedin battle, was carried to the
isle of avalon to be healed ofhis wounds, if such fortune
would allow that's anotherquestion for me.

Ron (39:22):
Yeah, is Avalon a real island or is this an island out
of myth?
Like, can I go to a like?
Do we call that white?
Now Is white.

Don (39:30):
Avalon of yore or something .
No Okay, avalon's a Catalina.

Ron (39:35):
Okay, oh, I've been there.

Don (39:38):
No, it's a.
It's a.
It's a place like Camelot,right when it's it.
It exists in the legend, but wedon't have an actual geographic
but there's things in historythat are like that too, which
we're going to come to.
So there's, it's, it's, it'smaybe a real place, but it's not
a place that we know today bythat name, so we don't have that
way to associate it.
So, um the um, the additionsthat uh, um that Jeffrey makes

(40:05):
to the story is Arthur isfinally a king Um he.
His travels go from England allthe way to Rome.
Um, cause he, um he does haveMerlin and there's some
interesting things about Merlinin um, in Jeffrey.

(40:25):
Jeffrey doesn't invent Merlin,but in this history book we talk
about this wizard um providingaid to uh, to the King Um he
he's.
He does pull it from a Welshname.
So there are earlier Welshstories of King Arthur that uh
that have this character ofMerlin.
In the welsh it's called merlinis his name, but in welsh
merlin is spelled m-y-r-d-d-i-n.

(40:49):
So merlin, the two d's make ath sound in welsh.
But when jeffrey's latinizingthat right, he's got to change
that name into a latin versionof that name.
So everyone expects him to keepthe r and the d, so to be
murdin, right or murdineuse.
But there's actually somemedievalists who have proposed

(41:12):
that he changes it frommurdineuse to murdineuse.
Uh changes the r to the l,because uh, mered is meredice in
latin.
You know that one mered infrench.
Yeah, it's feces, yeah so hechanges the name of merlin so he
doesn't sound like a pile ofpoop.

Doug (41:31):
I know, I mean, he was a good guy.

Ron (41:32):
Yeah, yeah, that is how it works, right.
Just yeah, it's like no, thatwon't work.

Don (41:36):
Yeah so, and he doesn't invent the round table.
There's no mention of a table.
But arthur does recruit knightsfrom across europe, so he is
sort of starting that fellowship.
In jeffrey the um, the table isinvented by a different group.
Um, that we will, that we'lltalk about um.
So that's jeffrey.

(41:56):
History book just talks abouthim as a as a real, and that's
the book that Queen Elizabethuses to trace her genealogy back
to King Arthur.
That's cool.
Yeah, it's very cool.
Then we have some other smallerwriters that we need to talk
about.
We've got Marie de France,We've got Cretin de Troyes,
Robert Barone that all writethese much smaller tales based

(42:21):
on the same set of characters.
They are all French, writingabout this English king, so they
start writing more of thisromantic story.
This is where we get singlenight adventures from.
Cretin de Troyes brings inLancelot with the knight in the
cart, and then we get thesestories told and retold by uh, a

(42:43):
group of monks.
So it's anonymous.
It's anonymous set of bookscalled the Vulgate cycle.
Um, it's five books written bya group of monks in France and
uh covers the origin of Merlin,the um, the origin of Arthur,
the sword and the stone A lot ofthe like elements now that we
would recognize as the Arthurstory we're pulling here from.
Um, the Vulgate cycle.

(43:06):
Um, and what's?
What's interesting about thiscycle is it's five books, it's
over a million words, it'sbigger than the Bible, Wow.
So these monks are that intothis King Arthur story.
They're the ones that makeMordred an incest baby.

Ron (43:24):
So prior to the Vulgate cycle there is a Mordred but it
was a nephew of the King, and sowe think they're not.
Uh well, I mean, they very wellcould be compiling different
versions of the stories they'veheard, but is the prevailing
theory that they're alsoinventing a little bit, they're
having a little fun, they are?

Don (43:42):
They're changing some details, but they we know for
sure that they pulled from likeRobert Barone and Cartier
Netoyer, and so they're.
They're pulling in elementsfrom these other authors for
sure, but, uh, but they're sortof like the, the early medieval
bulk.
Right, they're right there.
That tell the story.
But where did jeffrey get theinformation from?

Ron (44:12):
jeffrey.
Oh, let me go back a little bitfurther.

Don (44:13):
is this where we come in?
Like, this is the misty folkyit is.
We're getting back in the fogsof time.
Yeah, so, jeffrey's 1136, Iwant to go back to about 600, oh
, okay, so we're going back 500,500 years in time.
And, uh, and I want to go backto about 600.
Okay, so we're going to go back500, 500 years in time.
And, uh, and I want to tell youa story about a kingdom, uh,
called Good Oathen.
Um, good Oathen, good Oathen,good Oathen, yeah.

Doug (44:33):
Whoa.

Don (44:34):
In stereo.
Let's pan those left and rightfor our listeners.
So Good.
Oathen was a kingdom thatinhabited northern England, like
above York, maybe the lowerpart of Scotland, and around the
year 600, the Roman legionsused to be up here north right
Protecting Hadrian's Wall.
They've been gone for about 200years.
So Rome fell in the fifthcentury and there's a king who

(45:04):
brings all of his greatestwarriors together, um, in order
to fight against the invasion ofthe saxons.
That is happening, um and uh.
His name is uh, give me, herewe go.
His name is monophag manwar,menwar, yeah I like that and uh,
and so they meet in what wethink is edinburgh today and

(45:27):
they feast for an entire year toget ready for this battle.
Great place to do it.
That's a legendary feast yeah,and he marches 300 men south to
confront the saxons only 300that's all he could find in a
year and they all die.
Yeah, yeah it's the original300, 300 of men it is it just

(45:50):
was a shorter movie the feastingwas the majority of the party.
Too much, bro there were ahandful that escaped to tell the
story, otherwise we wouldn'tknow about it.
One of them is a poet namedAnadrin and he writes this poem
called Agadothan, which is aseries of about 97 elegies about

(46:11):
all these great warriors whowho died in that battle.
I want to tell you about two ofthem, okay.
First one is a guy named OwainOwain.
Uh huh, and just for context,because it might matter, knowing
what you both know in yourbackgrounds, his name is spelled
O-W-A-I-N.
Right, but pronounced Owain,okay, and he's a real person and

(46:35):
he dies in this battle.
And we know that he was realbecause he is the son of his
name, is Owain Mabourian.
He's the son of a king, theking of Hargad, and another poet
named Taliesin writes about him.
And then we find him in thissecond poem where he died,
called Agadoth.

(46:56):
So we know he was a real humanbeing, right, because he's
existing in two differentcontemporary sources, both
talking about one talking abouthow great he is.
Neither talking about how greathe was right, real human being,
because he's existing in twodifferent contemporary sources,
both talking about one talkingabout how great he is, and
they're talking about how greathe was right before he died.
Yeah, he gets wrapped intothese stories we've been talking
about.
So O-Line becomes E-Wayne in theKnights of the Round Table.
So E-Wayne Y-W-A-I-N.

(47:17):
Who is also a nephew of Arthur,who was the son of morgan and
king lot sometimes.
So parentage changes a littlebit.
But yeah, um is known for uhmaking friends with a lion, so
he's got his pet lion friendthat follows him around
everywhere.
And lion of england.
Is that where it comes from?
And uh, it's not but um, but I,I think that's interesting

(47:42):
because you brought it upearlier, right?
So like can a human being, areal human?

Ron (47:46):
become a legend.

Don (47:47):
Right, and here is a case where one of the characters in
this legend I can.
I can tell you who he was Like.
I can tell you exactly whichcharacter, which human being it
traces back to.

Ron (47:59):
So I'm he's like.
That is an interesting thing,because now he's he and his
memory have been transmuted intosomething that maybe bore very
little resemblance to the realat some point.

Doug (48:11):
This ain't 12 toes.

Ron (48:12):
This is 300 toes I doubt he's complaining right, because
no, he's you know, that's prettycool yeah it's like you became
spider-Man's best friend.
Yeah, he's like, okay, I'lltake that Plus he literally
can't complain.
Let's not forget that Becausehe doesn't speak English.

Doug (48:29):
That too.

Don (48:31):
So the second character I want to tell you about is a guy
named Gwarther.
He appears in stanza 99.
If you're going to go look itup, I'm going now.
Yeah, so he apparently was areally good warrior as well.
Uh, his stanza.
Let me just read you the stanza.
He pierced over 300 of thefinest.
He slew both the center and theflanks.
He was worthy in the front ofthe most generous army.
He gave out gifts of herd ofsteeds.

(48:53):
In the winter he fed blackRavens on the wall of the
fortress.

Doug (48:58):
Yeah, that's what I like to hear, yeah do you guys
understand what the?

Don (49:02):
what the feeding black ravens is he?

Doug (49:04):
like kill corpses right yeah, yeah it means he's.

Don (49:07):
He's feeding them by by murdering them.

Ron (49:09):
But here's the last line of the stanza, although he was no
arthur oh yeah, throwing alittle shade on gwarther right
yeah so that's what it soundslike to me too.

Don (49:25):
Uh, medievalists say no, that it's a, it's a common way
to compare and actually it's acompliment.
Right, because the stick you'reusing to measure gwarther is is
still arthur, is arthur yeah?

Ron (49:36):
so, um, because no one could be better than arthur, but
he was close is what they'resaying.

Don (49:41):
That's right, he's getting.
He's right up there Like, ifyou're going to, we can't have
Arthur, at least we can haveGwarthur.

Doug (49:46):
Yeah, yeah, which is hilarious, cause they're so
close yeah.

Ron (49:50):
Wow.
So, and what year is this?
This is 600.

Don (49:53):
600.

Ron (49:59):
Yeah, it's be easy.
You'd want to say, oh, gwarthurwas.

Don (50:02):
Arthur, the names are so similar, right, like it makes
sense, but he's not, becausethey're mentioned in the same
stanza, so they can't be so.

Ron (50:08):
Arthur has to predate even Gwarthur.

Don (50:10):
He does.
Yeah, so he has to predate, sohe does predate the Anglo-Saxons

(50:31):
, like I said at the beginningof the podcast, which means I
think doug owes me acheeseburger see, a porko, yeah,
but uh, um.
So then we are going into clivoand roman territory with arthur
.
We're getting closer, um, so uh.
And arthur just to clarify,arthur's not mentioned anywhere
else in this whole poem, so, andI'll get over, then that's the
only mention of arthur, so it'snot like arthur and gwarthur.

Ron (50:43):
He's not like the, the leader of the army right, he's
just a guy that's that's anotherpen on the wall marwar, marwar,
um.

Don (50:55):
but here's what's interesting about that.
That mention is, the poet is soconvinced that whoever is
listening to this knows whoArthur is.
You don't have to explain, yeahRight, it's just enough to say
his name and everybody go.

Ron (51:07):
Oh yeah, everybody knows.

Doug (51:08):
Yeah.

Ron (51:08):
So he was big.
It wasn't like uh, we knowArthur because of a couple of
movies and a couple of weirdVictorian poets who brought him
back Even back then.
They were big Arthur stans.

Don (51:25):
So it's gotta be.

Doug (51:26):
It has to be somebody who is famous enough that just that
reference would be enough.
Yeah, this is now getting backto our original conversation
about legend.
Right, because if it's enoughto be mentioned in one line for
popular, I would assume popularcan, or a consumption of the
text Although I'm guessing notmany read at this time but
enough, like whoever's readingthat they would know that it's a

(51:46):
big deal.

Don (51:46):
Yeah, another interesting thing around the same time,
around 600.
So if we look at um genealogiesthat exist before this, we
don't have the name arthuranywhere.
But right around 600, all of asudden this name arthur starts
showing up in royal genealogiesand in in other records.
Right, so we've got uh arturmach aiden, the son of the sixth

(52:09):
century scottish king, uh dalryalta, who died fighting the
pigs in 596.
Um, there's other arthur'sappearing all over royal
genealogies and inscriptions inceltic.
So again there was somebody whocarried that name that was
famous enough right around thattime for everybody to start
saying, hey, this must be ourguy.

Ron (52:31):
And do scholars think like, oh, perhaps it's one of these
authors?
I'm assuming there's been sortof a Jack the Ripper-esque
pouring over of all of thesemid-Arthurs to see if any of
them even measures up in somesmall way or dated a woman with
a G name?

Don (52:48):
There is there's a, there is a few.
So you mentioned earlier thatyou saw that movie that proposes
the Roman Legion theory right,yeah.
Yeah, the, the name of the.
The person that that's attachedto is a guy named Lucius
Artorius Castus um, who was aRoman uh, cavalry leader.
Um and uh.

(53:11):
He lived around sec secondcentury, so firmly in the middle
of Roman Britain, so the Romanempire had expanded right and
included um uh, included England.
At this time.
He actually has a story thatgoes backwards too, so this will
be fun.
Okay, he was a Samartian, whichcomes from like the area of

(53:33):
Ukraine.

Ron (53:33):
Okay.

Don (53:34):
And was defeated in his cavalry by the Romans, and then
they were absorbed into theRoman Legion, and then they were
absorbed into the Roman Legion.

(53:55):
So he was a leader in what'scalled the Sixth Victus Legion,
and they were assigned to thisarea of northern England to
protect Hadrian's Wall wouldsometimes worship their swords
as like the god of war, and sothe altars that are associated
with that are these swords thatare stuck in either a rock or
dirt.
Ah, that's pretty cool.

Ron (54:15):
Yeah, that's pretty.
That lines up pretty well.

Don (54:18):
Yeah, it does unfortunately , with that, that thread kind of
dies out right about there.
So is that guy?
That's the guy that has theclosest name to Arthur.
That's a Roman but he would bein the second century, so in the
one hundreds, and then we'vegot nothing that mentions his
name until the 600.
So most of the scholars don'tthink this is our guy mentioned

(54:40):
in the in the 600 poem, becausethere's too much time in between
.
He could be the source of thename, right, but we don't think
he's the guy, so who else couldit be?
There's another Welsh writernamed Nennius, who is another
monk, and he's writing a bookcalled um, of history, right,

(55:02):
trying to establish sort of thisnational identity for um, the,
uh, the Britons, and the Britonsbeing the natives of the island
.
So B-R-I-T-O-N.
That's the one, yes, exactly,um, and he writes in in the
eight hundreds and he writes abook called Historium uh,
britannum and uh, and it'sreally not a lot there.

(55:25):
But he does list 12 battles andmany of the battles we can't
identify with a battle, so likewe don't know what battle he's
talking about.
But the last one is named theBattle of Baden Hill, and that
one we can corroborate inanother source is named the
battle of Baden hill, and thatone we can corroborate in
another source.
But uh, in the battle of Badenhill, uh, arthur is described as

(55:52):
a war leader.
So he, um, he leads the Britonsto victories, uh, against the
Saxons, um, and he's neverdirectly described as King or
crowned as King, but he'sdescribed in these superhuman
terms, one of which would belike, like these 12 battles
probably lasted over 100 yearsso yeah um, it's, uh, uh, it's a
strange way, but thecorroboration that we have of
this, so that name arthur is theonly time that arthur is

(56:14):
associated with baden hill.
But I know that the battle ofbaden hill happened because
there's another writer, uh nameduh Gildas, who also writes
about this, and he claims thatthe battle of Baden Hill
happened 44 years and two monthsafter the Saxons arrived, which
was also the time of his birth.
He doesn't mention Arthur, hedoesn't mention who led the

(56:36):
battle of Baden Hill, but weknow that the battle happened
then.
It would have been the earlyfive hundreds.
Yeahs, yeah, um.
But he does add a couple otherinteresting details.
He says that the leader of thebritons at the time was a guy
named ambrosius arelianus, whichsounds roman, but it's because
he's roman, uh, descendant sofrom the romans who had left

(56:57):
several hundred years earlier.
So b then picks up in the 600sfrom gildas in the 500s about
this guy ambrosius.
So there's a possibility thatambrosius becomes arthur in
ninnies.
So maybe ambrosius is thisarthur that then turns into the
arthur of, but that's, that'sway back in those foggy mists of

(57:20):
time.
We can't quite see so.
But what I think is interestingis that we have this whole canon
of literature, of stories ofthe king and the justice and the
decline and the magic, and it'sall based on probably maybe a
guy who was probably a prettygood fighter.
But all of those facts don'tmatter.

Ron (57:43):
The story is what matters gets told, and the story is true
, even though none of ithappened and it's weird because,
like him, even probably beingsome you know warrior guy also
doesn't really seem to matter topeople you know, like.
Like, yeah, I mean, you know,different time, different
mindset, different priorities, Iguess, guess, different values,
but it's like, oh yeah, he wasone of hundreds of very good

(58:06):
fighting men.
Why him?
What was so unique?

Don (58:11):
I mean, that's the part that's fun to speculate about, I
think, because it's like andthen, as the story gets added
onto and added onto right, andeach generation like, adds its
little twist on it.
So in in agadothan, thoseearlier versions, right, we
needed a warlord who could helpus defeat the saxons.
But then when we're saxon, thenall of a sudden we need a king

(58:34):
who can lead us to victory.
And then all of a sudden we're,the french, are taking over and
arthur basically gets sidelinedin most of the french stories,
um, and everybody, you know,just worried about their
feelings or whatever.
And then we take the story backin Mallory and and it, you know
, we, we need this, this man whocan lead us to justice.
But then even in that, he'sfrail too.
And he falls too, and there's noperfection, even though we want

(58:56):
perfection.
Yeah, so the the flexibility ofthe story to match the yeah
needs of society is interesting.

Doug (59:05):
It very much reminds me of like, uh, essentially what we
see with comics, in the sensethat, like, a hero continues to
shift with every single, youknow, changing of the tide.

Ron (59:16):
Um right, you can see that there's like so many bad men of
today is different than thebatman of yeah 1960 and how many
different variations andversions.

Doug (59:25):
Yeah, absolutely, and I mean, maybe that's going back to
what is legend, right, I thinkthat that's a huge part of it
because, um, yeah, I think thatarthur definitely well, and
again I'm very much thinkingabout the malory but it it does
have the mythological aspects ofalmost religious connotation
and sacrifice and morality andvirtue that you serve and what's

(59:48):
right and wrong.
But I think the legend part ofit is the fact that the
character adapts, that you cankind of see yourself in it or
like reflects your time in a way.
That's so on the tip of yourtongue that you would understand
it immediately.

Don (59:59):
And maybe that's a big part of the legend and we didn't
talk about it but that'sabsolutely one of your tongue,
that you would understand itimmediately, and maybe that's a
big part of the legend and wedidn't talk about it, but that's
absolutely one of the projectsof the the vulgate writers,
right, that that write.
That really long french versionis they're taking those pagan
stories and they'rechristianizing, yeah, the king,
right and right.

Ron (01:00:13):
So yeah I've got a question do you want there to be a
historical arthur?

Doug (01:00:22):
I don't know if it matters .

Ron (01:00:23):
Does it make the legend cooler or less cool If there was
a real guy, who was just someScottish guy named Artus or
whatever?

Doug (01:00:34):
I think it makes it less cool immediately because it's
going to bring in the historianconcept of like.
But what actually happened wasand I want the tall and that
would like deflate the legend.

Don (01:00:45):
Yeah absolutely, yeah, I like.
I like that there probably wasa person, even though none of
the stories associated with thatlegend probably really happened
, but that there was some.
There's some Colonel, like Idon't know what the Colonel of
truth is Like he must've been abad ass soldier, like that's,
that's gotta be it, but, but notknow it, but it so it's.

(01:01:05):
It creates that intrigue for me, like Jack the Ripper, and I
know that there's lots ofproblems that people have
brought up with, you know,searching for the murderer, and
why are we glorifying thecriminal instead of the?
I like that.
It's an inaccessible piece ofinformation that I know exists
in the universe.
The same thing here.
Like Arthur, I like that heprobably was a real person, and

(01:01:26):
I don't care that that realperson doesn't have anything to
do with the stories, because thestories still are true.

Ron (01:01:33):
Yes, even though they're not factual.
It's the sort of twist of fatethat the stories even survive
today and have become what theyare.
That's kind of the attractivething there.

Don (01:01:41):
Absolutely.

Ron (01:01:41):
Right, absolutely.

Don (01:01:43):
Yeah, the legends build the things that we need them to be
through story and whether or notit was a real person, but I
like the fact that a real personlike started.
That was the first domino.

Doug (01:01:56):
Yeah, yeah.

Don (01:01:58):
My, but I think if I knew who it was, I might be less
impressed.
I think it's only because it'sa mystery, like it's a known.
I know that there was a person,but I don't know who he was or
what he did like that I likethat enigma.

Ron (01:02:11):
Yeah, yeah, because then it becomes almost silly, right, it
becomes sort of foppish.
Like ah he wasn't up to be.
You know, I feel like you.
It's a thing.
Kids would tell you it's likewrestling.
When they tell you it's fake,oh, he's not actually.

Doug (01:02:27):
You know doing that and you're like yeah, I know, yeah,
I definitely feel that way.

Ron (01:02:32):
Thanks for bringing it back around trying to speak d Doug's
language a little bit.
Thank you.

Don (01:02:39):
It meant a lot, yeah, and it all grew from Gwarthur not
being an Arthur.

Doug (01:02:46):
Yeah, or Gwarthur yeah, yeah.

Ron (01:02:48):
Could have been him, he could have been, could have been
, we could have been talkingabout King Gwarthur.

Don (01:02:52):
He wasn't.
No, he wasn't, he wasn't.

Doug (01:02:55):
Turns out, not everybody was satisfied with Ron's
presence.
I didn't have 12 toes, but wehope that the legend grows, and
Don wasn't a spooky teacher.

Ron (01:03:09):
Thank you very much for bringing this to us today, don,
and hopefully this hascontributed in some way to our
legend.
That's right, of course.

Don (01:03:18):
Because what survives isn't the fact, it's the feeling

(01:03:58):
no-transcript.