December 17, 2024 • 60 mins
Have you ever found justice in the most unexpected places? In our latest podcast episode, we open with tales from everyday life, where a cheeky raccoon and a stubborn customer at Costco serve as unlikely arbiters of fairness. These personal anecdotes offer a humorous yet insightful glimpse into the chaos that often accompanies trying to do what's right in a world that doesn't always make it easy. As we unravel these stories, we're reminded of the unpredictable nature of justice and how it often appears when we least expect it.
From the playful chaos of modern life, we journey back to the bizarre and dramatic events of the late 800s in Rome, where Pope Formosus's story unfolds like a medieval soap opera. Imagine being put on trial after your death—his infamous Cadaver Synod trial is a captivating tale of power, politics, and personal vendettas. We then turn to the legacy of King Canute and his sons, exploring how history is written and rewritten over centuries. Through humor and in-depth analysis, we explore how the echoes of these ancient power struggles still resonate today.
The story doesn't end there. We also explore figures like John Wycliffe and the enduring impact of attempts to revise history, touching on Anastasia Romanov's legendary narrative and the ongoing debates over historical memory in our own times. In a playful finale, we discuss whimsical posthumous requests, underscoring the lighthearted camaraderie that threads through our conversation. Join us for a lively exploration of justice, power, and legacy, one that promises to challenge your perceptions and leave you pondering the stories we've shared.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don (00:28):
So.
So that's how the raccoon gotthe sandwich and I got banned
from the park.
Ron (00:32):
That's insane.
Doug (00:34):
I never knew that about you, yeah well, that's how you
get holes in your socks, folks.
Don (00:38):
Hey everybody, Welcome back to the Uncannery.
I'm Don.
I'm.
Doug (00:42):
Ron, this is Doug here.
Don (00:44):
And gosh, you guys, guys, it's so good to see you.
Ron (00:46):
It's been forever yeah, it has been a very long time, at
least two hours.
Don (00:50):
Yeah, I was it was three, I think last time.
Doug (00:53):
Yes, yes, yes parting is such sweet sorrow and not sweet
enough oh well voters out thereuh listeners, yeah, well, voters
listeners.
We're polling right now to seewhether it's sweet or not.
Don (01:12):
That wasn't very nice, ron, that doesn't seem fair.
Ron (01:16):
No, it's just funny.
The humor is when you're mean.
Doug (01:22):
Depends on where it's coming from.
Don (01:30):
Well, speaking of fair, I was wondering, I wanted to ask
you I start us off tonight aboutyour sense of fairness and and
have you ever exercised orexperienced one of those moments
where, like justice just camethrough for you, like you knew
that was a time when the starsaligned and the world was right
and your good works had paid off, or whatever, and and justice
was there I think I distinctlyremember some childhood
(01:51):
arguments when I finally wasstarting to see behind the
curtain on parenting, and therewas a few things so like at
three.
Doug (02:02):
Oh man, I wish.
Uh.
No, this was much later.
I think one of the biggesterrors I ever made was why would
I go clean my room?
Your room's never clean.
Don (02:13):
That didn't go well is that when the spoon got broken?
No, that was me.
Yeah, that was my broabsolutely.
Doug (02:23):
Um, but yeah, there, that that was one, and as much as I
felt like I had the just at thetime, it came right back after
me, so I didn't exactly win thatone, yeah um.
Ron (02:34):
I feel like I'm very rarely am the recipient of justice um
not that I not that I don'tdeserve it stepped on ron.
The first thing that popped inmy head was uh, I used to work
at Costco, which is like awarehouse grocery store and I
worked in.
It's so large, it has a foodcourt and you can buy pizzas and
hot dogs there, and I used to.
I worked for two years there,like when I was in college, and
(02:57):
one night I was running thepizza window, which means you're
the guy who has to take all thepizzas out of the oven and then
cut them up and then hand themto the correct person who's
waiting at that window.
And if you're really behind,people are really mad and can
get like a really long lineoutside of that pizza window,
and I think this was one ofthose nights.
So a guy came up and I gave himhis pizza and I had pulled it
down and he said I pulled itdown from the rack too roughly
(03:21):
and that all of the pepperonis,yeah yeah yeah they had.
Don (03:25):
You heard the pizza feelings?
Yeah, yeah, exactly like they.
Ron (03:28):
He said all the pepperonis slid from one side to the other
completely ruined this pizza andI I looked at it.
He opened it up and it wasindistinguishable from any other
and I and he was.
He was like asking for anotherone.
I I'm like no, I'm not going togive you another pizza.
You are literally insane.
I didn't tell him that, but hejust kept getting madder and
(03:50):
madder and trying to bully meinto giving him a new pizza and
I said no, no, no, just like I'msorry.
Don (03:55):
No, I'm not.
Ron (03:56):
Like I should have as a low-level employee.
I should have just got this guyout of my hair and said like
sure, fine, here, whatever.
But I just wouldn't, as amatter of honor.
I was like no, you are soinsane.
I'm not letting anyone in thevicinity of this place think you
won this argument Right.
So he eventually leaves andthere was a there's a supervisor
(04:16):
behind him in line and she waslike, yeah, that guy was crazy.
Sorry, I'll totally vouch foryou if something comes of this.
Well, something did come of it.
The manager of the entire storecame to talk to me afterwards.
He said I don't care how crazythis guy had a big walrus
mustache and all southern-y.
I don't care how crazy that guywas, you give him the pizza.
Customer's always right.
Blah, blah, blah Chewed me outand that was that.
Don (04:41):
And if you'd given them the pizza, you probably would have
had that same conversation aboutgiving away the profits and how
you can't.
Yeah right right.
Ron (04:47):
Yeah, because you can't like accept a quote-unquote bad
pizza and then turn around andgive it to the next guy right
now.
Doug (04:52):
That's, that's a bad pizza do you know how many millions
we make a year?
Ron (04:56):
you're gonna give him a new pizza so I was really hoping
that the manager would come byand be like hey, yeah, sorry you
had to go, had to go throughthat, that guy was insane yeah
it's bad and I saw it.
Like three weeks later thatsame guy came in my window and
he was like at my register andhe knew that, did he recognize
you?
He recognized me and Irecognized him, but he seemed
ashamed.
Don (05:13):
Good, I think he was tweaking or something that day
it was really odd, andafterwards he was like oh,
pepperoni, shame had fallen.
Doug (05:21):
Yeah.
Ron (05:21):
Yeah, yeah, we've all we all have been there, right?
You just, you're really hungryand then, uh, afterwards you're
like, oh man, what was I doing?
Yeah, yeah.
Don (05:30):
A hundred percent.
So my, my story of justice wasuh, I was a senior in high
school, um, and I can't remember.
uh, 17, 18, but you know how youhave that, that overinflated
sense of righteous indignationyou know you're on the cusp of
citizenship and um, and my highschool had recently repainted
the parking lot and they made amistake when they did and one of
(05:53):
the student spaces had beenpainted the color of the staff
spaces.
But they knew it was a mistakeright after they did it, so they
only changed the color of thebumper, they didn't put the word
staff on it, they didn didn'tput the there's supposed to be
staff on it in two places, onthe bumper and on the ground,
and uh, and nobody would parkthere and it was a time when,
like, parking was at a premiumin my, at my house always has
(06:15):
been if you weren't.
If you weren't there 15 minutesearly, you were walking from
across the street.
So yeah, um, so, uh.
I decided I was going to startparking there, because I checked
the parking regulations thatare posted at the entrance to
the school and it said that theparking, the staff parking, had
to be marked by color and byword in two different places.
And it wasn't, and I got awaywith it for like about two weeks
(06:37):
or so, and then one day I walkout and I had a ticket on my car
and that was it.
The fire of indignation rosewithin me, I was going to march
right up to the, to the schooloffice and make sure that it was
handled.
But it was like a real ticket.
It was written by a policeofficer.
It wasn't like something theschool could just like wave a
wand the man's just trying tokeep you down, right but it's
(07:00):
okay because I took I I went tocourt as my first court
experience.
Ron (07:04):
Took that officer to court.
I did.
Don (07:08):
And I had heard I'd been told that because it was back
before you could look this stuffup online that you always
challenge a parking ticketbecause the officer never shows
up.
Ron (07:19):
Yeah.
Don (07:20):
So I'm waiting outside the courtroom and who walks in?
Ron (07:23):
Oh yeah, I was told they always do, because they get like
time and a half for showing up.
They're like incentivized to.
Don (07:29):
But for my like $30 parking ticket, like you know.
Come on, but it's his honor.
Ron (07:38):
He's going to defend his honor.
Doug (07:39):
That's right, he told his wife the night before when I go
into that courtroom, shelly, I'mgonna let him know what I wrote
these punks have been trying totake me down for years.
Ron (07:48):
If I give them one inch, today is the day I am the law
you're going down but uh, but Icame well prepared.
Don (07:57):
I had, um, I had a letter from uh, the principal saying
that, uh, that the parking spacewas intended to be a student
space and it was miss, uh,miscolored.
I had the uh, the sign that hadthe rules posted, um, and so it
was fun.
I got, I got a hearing.
There was a real judge andeverything, and I showed him all
my stuff and the judge justlooked at it and didn't even ask
(08:18):
the officer any questions otherthan well, officer Jobes, it
looks like there was a mistakehere, huh, and then dismissed
the whole thing.
It was awesome.
Officer Jobes left, head heldlow and you know what?
She didn't even look at me asshe left.
We didn't shake hands or hug oranything.
I was so happy.
Doug (08:37):
Well, that threw my whole thing out the window of him, the
officer I had in my head, goinghome to Shelly.
Don (08:43):
Not today.
Huh, I know her.
Her first name was Barbara.
Doug (08:48):
So it was definitely not a significant moment for Don.
That's what we know.
Yeah, I like that.
Don (08:55):
Cool, yeah, that's good.
Well, I wanted to have a storyfor you guys about justice,
about justice and about.
You know how important it is tothat justice is served in the
end.
I think we all know that.
Okay.
So, like usual, we're going togo back in time.
I'm going to go all the wayback to the twilight years of
(09:19):
the 9th century.
Ron (09:20):
Whoa 800s, late 800s, rome's falling no that's 450?
.
Doug (09:27):
Yeah, that's much earlier.
What's?
Ron (09:27):
happening in the 800s.
Rome's falling, that's 450.
What's happening in the 800s?
Don (09:30):
well, it depends because remember it might not have
existed but we're in Italy, soRome's a good guess.
We're going to hang out therefor a little bit and we're going
to meet a bishop named Formosus.
Ron (09:46):
Oh, that's like a name.
Don (09:47):
Yeah, and from all accounts he was a.
He was a good guy and very,very humble, like he took.
He didn't spend any money onanything, he slept on a bare
board so he didn't eat lavishlyOne of these real Christian
weirdos, exactly.
But he got a little bitsideways with the Pope, kind of
like most Christian weirdos.
Yeah, exactly, but he got alittle bit sideways with the
Pope, kind of like mostChristian weirdos.
(10:08):
Yeah, and in 876, he's put ontrial for disobedience and for
trying to usurp the papal throneand he has to actually sneak
out of Rome and he's disguisedby by followers and people help
him.
And there's even stories lateron that like there was
(10:30):
miraculous lights that were likefollowing him out of Rome or
leading him out of Rome, but heescaped.
UFOs, that's right.
Doug (10:36):
Yeah.
Don (10:37):
He, uh, he makes it out of Rome, um, but the Pope at the
time uh, winds up, uh, uh,excommunicating him and
stripping him of his bishophood,but that Pope dies.
We're in a time period wherethe average Pope reign was about
three years.
So if you get one Pope mad, youjust got to hang on for a
(10:59):
little bit, and it doesn't haveto.
Nature will correct itself.
Not Pope now Pope later, sohe's restored under Pope Marinus
I.
Is that where we named thetrench?
Probably yeah, I have no idea.
Ron (11:24):
The trench pope.
Don (11:26):
Eventually he's restored his bishopship.
His bishop is put back, andthen Marinus dies and Adrian
dies and Stephen V dies.
Ron (11:36):
He's outliving them all.
Don (11:37):
Yeah, it's 1891 and we need a new pope.
And guess who?
We elect Pope, the later PopeFormosa, pope, formosa, formosa.
Okay, so he goes from being abishop being excommunicated to
now he's pope.
Ron (11:51):
That's a pretty good Great arc.
Yeah, yeah, that's what youwant to see.
Don (11:55):
You think it's like a pinnacle of success, like you're
at the top of the Christianfood chain.
You're the pope, yeah, but in897 he's on trial again.
Oh, they can do that, you cantrial the pope.
So he's uh, he's put on trial.
He's prosecuted by a guy namedstephen the sixth and uh, and
stephen uh shouts at him duringhis trial, accuses him of
(12:16):
usurping the papacy.
For uh to to uh, to assuage hishis thirst for ambition.
Oh, ste, steve six.
Yeah, it's least cool name,steve so far, and uh and and and
for Moses sat silently thewhole time that the charges were
read.
He was silent as theaccusations were thrown at him.
(12:38):
He didn't say a single word.
While witnesses testified, hewas silent while they delivered
the guilty verdict that everyoneassumed was probably a foregone
conclusion.
They stripped him right therein the Lateran Cathedral of all
of his papal vestments.
They chopped off three fingersfrom his right hand.
Doug (12:59):
Can I pause you there?
We went from stripping to let'stake off some digits.
Yeah, why?
Don (13:07):
Well, those were the fingers that he had used to
bless people with as Pope, oh mygosh.
So they removed them.
I think it's these three theindex and middle and thumb and
even while they were removinghis fingers, he didn't say a
word, he didn't move.
Doug (13:22):
Now I'm scared.
Ron (13:23):
Yeah, and then he grew them back.
They had to go Because he wasan alien.
Don (13:33):
Now.
Then they had to go bury himagain because he was dead the
whole time.
He had actually died.
That's more ridiculous thanwhat I said Nine months before,
in 896.
And they didn't put him ontrial until January of 897.
Doug (13:50):
Don, you have quite the gift for storytelling I must
tell you, you really strung mealong there and I'm going.
Don (13:55):
Come on, man, okay but they did strip the dead guy, correct
?
Ron (14:00):
they did strip the dead guy , but that means someone that
had to dress the dead guy.
Don (14:03):
Yep uh, well, well, according to the stories, he was
actually dressed already,because they just had to go get
him out of the grave that he hadbeen placed in the tomb in in
the basement of saint peter's uh, basilica.
So he was already dressed as apope because he was dead and
buried and then, to give justiceto ron.
Doug (14:19):
At some point when he died , somebody did need to dress him
.
It just might not have beenright then that's true.
Don (14:25):
Somebody did dress him when he died.
That's true.
Ron (14:27):
We need to go to go back.
You need to Christopher Nolanthis for me so.
Don (14:33):
That he how long after he was dead, did this trial occur
Nine months.
He died in April of 1896.
What's a body like nine months?
Not good, I can imagine it's alittle gooey is what I would
think.
Ron (14:45):
Gooey, it's a ponification.
Don (14:46):
So he's there, he's there and it's actually reported in
the contemporary.
We don't have a lot of recordsfrom like.
We don't have the transcript ofthe trial.
There's only the one phrasefrom Stephen about his ambition.
That is recorded in some of thecontemporary versions of this
story.
But one of the things that isdefinitely recorded is the, the
stench that was emanatingthroughout the cathedral and I
(15:09):
don't know if you've ever beento the Lateran cathedral, but
it's not a small building and itwas that this is in Rome.
Ron (15:15):
It is in Rome.
Yeah.
What is our account here?
How do we know this information?
Are there multiple accounts ofthis story?
Are we basing this on?
Don (15:23):
one account.
There are multiple accounts,including decrees from popes.
After this happened, thatverified it happened and kind of
tried to undo some of this.
We'll we'll talk about in aminute.
Um and uh, some contemporaryaccounts of people who were
present and, uh, refused toparticipate.
Um, the fun fact about so, uh,for Moses was absolutely silent
(15:44):
during the trial process, butthey actually appointed a poor
deacon to like crouch behind himand like answer for him.
What so?
That way Steven could have alittle dialogue with him when he
was like throwing theseaccusations at him.
So if you ever wondered what'sthe like, you know dirty job.
Crouch behind the gooey corpseand speak for it in a trial that
(16:06):
you know he's going to be foundguilty.
Ron (16:09):
Raise your hand for that one.
Are you hiring the best or theworst?
Don (16:12):
actor for that job I can do anything.
Doug (16:16):
I can bring a personality to any stiff in town and like
I'm definitely doing a weirdvoice right, like oh.
And then we ask him again what?
Don (16:25):
does he say I'm going?
Doug (16:26):
to tell you a story Immediately.
Yeah, I'm going to tell you astory Immediately, yeah.
Ron (16:31):
So, um, is this the first?
Uh?
Was this thing happeningfrequently in the church?
Was this like were thereprotocols for this?
Or did Stephen one day show upand he's like I got a wild idea?
Don (16:44):
but trust me, Now that this is an invention of Stephen's.
So yeah, this is not somethingthat.
And it haslawed after it wasover.
Ron (16:56):
Everyone felt so gross.
Don (17:00):
Imagine yelling at this guy too, like he's raising his
voice.
It's just insane.
So a little bit of thebackground.
At one point Formosus, when hewas Bishop of Porto, was sent by
the Pope to Bulgaria, to thesemi-converted Bulgarians, to
try to finish that conversionand bring them into the fold of
(17:22):
the Roman Catholic Church.
Eastern Orthodox church fromConstantinople also had sent
some emissaries.
Um but uh, the King of Bulgariawas so impressed that he said
we'll all convert toChristianity as long as Formosa
stays as our Archbishop.
Wow, but that was against canonlaw because he already was an
(17:43):
Archbishop back in Porto.
So, um, he uh.
So that was the basis ofStephen's accusation was that he
was trying to to be bishop intwo places, which was a
violation of law, but he didn't.
He returned to Rome and andcarried out the rest of his
diplomatic duties.
He just was a really gooddiplomat.
Ron (17:59):
Yeah.
Don (18:00):
Um, but, uh, when he became Pope, there was a very powerful
family called the Spoletofamily.
Um, who, uh, it said that forMoses, uh, election to Pope was
unanimous, which would have beenvery unusual.
But the Spoleto family maybehad greased those wheels,
because right after he waselected Pope, he, um, he
(18:22):
appointed their 14 year old sonas the Holy Roman Emperor.
Oh yeah, but then during therest of his reign, which is only
five years, he turned back tothe Germans and he looked at a
person from Carthenia who hethen also appointed as the Holy
Roman Emperor, in competitionwith the Spoletos.
(18:43):
The later pope was supported bythe splutto, so we think that
the whole reason that he was puton trial in death was because
of the pressure from that familywanting to punish him for the,
uh, the embarrassment that itcaused at the time of uh
formosa's death, uh, was thatissue of the emperorship still
(19:04):
disputed?
it was.
And well, kind of was it?
It had been settled because heappointed the um, the guy from
carthinia, and then, sort oflike wink, wink, nudge, nudge,
said, hey, they're not reallyprepared, the Spoletos don't
have an army, why don't you comeon down here and see how nice
it is here in Italy?
And he did so.
It kind of got settled, but notin any sort of diplomatic way.
(19:28):
Yeah.
Ron (19:28):
Yeah, wow, of diplomatic way.
Don (19:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Ron (19:31):
Wow, and what did he?
What did he die of?
And is he?
Is this just an old age thing?
Don (19:37):
It is, yeah, just a, which is unusual and happy for him
because, like I said, a lot ofpopes were dying rather quickly.
Matter of fact, the Pope rightafter him, boniface the sixth,
only lasted 15 days.
Doug (19:50):
Bonnie.
Don (19:50):
Um so the sixth only lasted 15 days.
Um so, uh, there's some rumorsabout poisoning and things like
that, but boniface was supposedto have died of gout.
I don't know how you die ofgout, but maybe it's a thing.
Different definition back then.
Yeah, yeah, but uh, so afterthey find formosa's guilty, they
, like I said, they bury him ina pauper's grave.
So they're not back in the StPeter's tomb where he, or in St
(20:12):
Peter's Basilica in his fancyPope tomb Just throw him in the
ground.
But then Stephen says eh that'snot really good enough.
Let's dig him up one more time.
So they do, and they throw himin the Tiber River and watch him
float out to down the riverLike the heathen kings of old,
(20:34):
again trying to erase like any.
So annulled all of his papalactions, including things like
ordaining priests and bishops.
And guess who he had ordainedas bishop, stephen VI, before he
became Stephen VI?
Yeah, I must say they ignoredthat one, so they had to redo
hundreds of ordinations, um, but, and apparently a monk fished
(20:57):
him out of the river and uh, andat the spot where he was fished
out there was miracles reported, um and uh.
And so this idea that, uh,stephen was trying to control
that narrative and and eraseforosa's influence.
All of a sudden, formosa hasthis little cult of personality
around him and you know clearlyhe's a favored by God because
(21:17):
there's these miracles happening.
Yeah, and in August of 897,just six months after the trial,
guess who's arrested and thrownin jail?
Stephen Stephen the Six Stevieboy, oh my God.
And he's only in there for amonth until somebody goes into a
cell and strang in jail StephenStephen the Six Stevie boy, oh
my God, and he's only in therefor a month until somebody goes
into his cell and strangles him.
Doug (21:36):
That's really good, thanks for laughing.
Don (21:39):
Ron, that's a good one.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting thatto be the punchline.
Doug (21:42):
Well, if he doesn't laugh, he'll cry.
Ron (21:45):
This is some real clandestine Middle Ages stuff.
Right, it really is.
Don (21:51):
Well, and that was an extrajudicial strangulation, by
the way.
Ron (21:56):
So it wasn't a.
Did they care about that one?
Did they have to put his deadcorpse on trial?
They didn't Steven you get anopportunity here pal.
Doug (22:03):
Steven, who did it?
Tell us the guy behind him itwas well.
Ron (22:10):
It was my hot neighbor's wife she always had a thing,
yeah that's right.
Don (22:17):
So that's that's the first story I have for you.
Is this the idea of controllingthe narrative after somebody is
dead, like my like?
Why?
Why are we doing this?
Like I understand, like thesploto family didn't like
formosis, but like?
What are we accomplishing bydoing any of this except
grossing everybody out?
Ron (22:34):
Right?
Is there like there's a displayof power here, right to some
extent?
Like we have the power toexhume your corpse and cut off
your fingers.
Yeah, um, um there's, I guess,like uh is the Roman.
I feel like the Roman Catholicchurch is very interested in its
history, right and sort of likeuh, expunging any stains from
(22:58):
that history.
I mean, it's supposed to be the, the, the speakerphone for God.
Don (23:02):
right they're, they can't have any mistakes, but the um,
starting with Formosa's death,the papacy entered a kind of a
dark period with that, Like itwasn't, it wasn't the time of
its, of its greatest virtue.
It's actually referred to asthe the pornography.
Doug (23:19):
Whoa.
Don (23:20):
So about a hundred years of rule by some some not so nice
guys?
Ron (23:25):
This sounds like a great.
I want to see this film.
Trilogy the Pornocracy Getscensored in every single place
because of the name.
I want to see this film trilogythe.
Doug (23:31):
Pornocracy, yeah, yeah, gets censored in every single
place because of the name.
Well, and I even think I meanso, taking it away from the
context, I mean, it generallyseems to be the case that, like
infamy or even more, fame comesafter death, and so that's the
only thing that I can think ofis just that you would want to
go after somebody more in death,because now the conversation
(23:52):
isn't around what they'recontinuing to do, but what
they've done.
I think that would maybe bewhere it is, but you're telling
me that there's more there'smore okay, let's see if this
tracks all right.
Don (24:03):
So let's uh, let's go to england.
I'm there, we'll jump forward alittle bit.
In time we'll be here in the11th century.
Ron (24:10):
So still no tube, still no tube, yeah, the channel is not
there yet, just a couple ofyears shy.
Don (24:19):
So, king Canute.
Ron (24:22):
Oh cool.
Don (24:22):
Yeah, it was a.
Scandinavian king who had rulefor a little while after he
defeated some Anglo-Saxons.
Doug (24:30):
This is if you didn't know , there's a very, very popular
uh anime and manga that is goingaround right now that I also
very much enjoy, called vinlandsaga.
Ron (24:42):
I've seen a little bit of this.
Don (24:44):
I intended to watch more and I oh it's a treat I strongly
recommend and I am very excitedto see where this goes now so
he's mostly of danish descentand he, uh, um, he had two sons
that, uh, that both kind ofcompeted for what they thought
the vision of england would be.
(25:04):
Uh, one of his older son wasnamed hartha canute, which I
think means son of Canute, andhis other son was Harold
Hairfoot.
Doug (25:15):
That one got the short end of the stick.
Don (25:18):
He was called Hairfoot because he was super fast.
He was quick like a bunny.
Oh, not like hairy feet, nothairy feet.
Hairfoot like a rabbit Proudfeet.
He wasn't a hobbit.
Ron just entered the chat.
Ron (25:36):
What Hobbits you guys want to talk about?
Gondolin?
Don (25:41):
Anyways, these two brothers actually half-brothers have
different mothers, and whenCanute dies, Harthacnut happens
to not be in England.
Gosh darn it, he's home inDenmark.
So, even though Canute had saidthat Harthacnut was going to be
the next king, Harold says well, but I'm here, so might as well
(26:02):
be me.
Doug (26:03):
I'm the Canute you got.
Yeah, these fast feet can befast to the throne, baby.
Don (26:09):
So he takes the throne from his brother and rules England
for not very long.
Ron (26:18):
Is this where the parable of the rabbit and the tortoise
comes from?
Because his brother was so slowgetting back there.
Yeah, his sigil was a turtle orsomething, for sure, yeah.
Don (26:28):
Harold Harefoot winds up dying of natural causes at the
age of 24.
Ron (26:34):
Those are some natural causes.
Don (26:36):
Those are not, yeah, the prime of your life, didn't
really?
Live long back then, that'sright and his brother Harthacnut
then comes to England and takesback his brother harold harth
canute then comes to to englandand uh, and takes back his
throne.
But one of the first things hedoes is uh, finds his brother's
(26:57):
grave and digs it up, takes hisbrother out of the grave, throws
him in a swamp there's a themeof let's get him into some
watery substance?
Ron (27:09):
if not, yeah, get him out of the good ground, put him in
the bad ground.
Don (27:14):
But then he decides you know that's not enough.
So he gets him out of the swampand then they cut his head off
and then throw both of thosepieces into the dams, the river,
yeah.
Ron (27:30):
History repeats itself.
Watch him just sort of floataway okay, okay, yeah, so I mean
uh burial has always had likesignificance, right like uh, who
gets a burial and where are youburied?
I think like all human cultures, have always sort of attached
significance to that right it'sbeen meaningful.
So I I do understand the sort oflike no, you don't get to be
(27:53):
buried here, right?
Like where you're buriedmatters and you're a bad person.
You don't deserve to be buriedin the church, you don't deserve
to be buried in the King'smound or wherever, Right.
So I kind of understand thatpart.
I get like the logic behindthat.
Don (28:06):
Well, and, and that actually holds out with
contemporary records.
So part of the story at leastone version of it is that they
threw him into the swamp and itactually was a Danish fisherman.
A fisherman who was living inEngland, of Danish descent,
finds him in the swamp and pullshim out and buries him then in
the Danish cemetery.
And when Harthacnut finds outthat his brother, that he had
(28:29):
desecrated the grave of, has anew grave, that's when he
decides he's going to have to Idon't know execute him by
chopping his head off.
Ron (28:39):
Were there also miracles in that swamp?
Like all the eels here areincredibly attractive.
Don (28:46):
They're so tasty no, there was not um but uh.
But they did have a nice paradeof of harold's corpse, um,
dragged through the streets fromthe marshland to the river,
where, um, where they, uh, theycut his head off.
So, wow, yeah, again, likewhat's the, what's the message?
(29:07):
Right, because like, yes, it'sabout power, but again, like,
the guy's been dead and he'sbeen dead for for a while when
he comes back like he's uh, Ithink he's been dead for like
two years or something like that.
So, but like not not outside aliving memory of like the people
, right?
Ron (29:22):
this is seems symbolic, right?
It's like hey, look you.
Uh, my hair-footed brother wasa bit hair-brained and it was
wrong for you all to be ruled byhim.
So just keep in mind, I'm theguy in charge.
Now let's emphasize that bycutting off his head and
(29:43):
watching you watch this dopeparade yeah, because I mean it,
it's.
Doug (29:50):
It certainly sends a message, doesn't it?
I mean, I and I don't know,this is like, where I think of
like, uh, the expression gettingso medieval, like becomes it.
It's like this this is socommon, it seems, for the story
and like, even the fiction basedon story of like.
There always needs to beabsolutely violent change to
(30:10):
really establish dominance.
It's just insane.
Ron (30:13):
But is this like a principally a medieval
phenomenon?
Right, like it should be, belooking for the answers in the
kind of psychology and sociologyof these people, because they
did give a lot of significanceto things that we don't ascribe
significance to anymore, right?
Don (30:28):
They did.
But but like what it raises inmy mind is the way that Each new
generation of politicianbasically tries to erase all of
the efforts and successes of thegeneration before it,
especially when it's likeswitching parties, like when one
party is in control, they havean agenda and they try to do
things and as soon as the otherparty takes control, like the
(30:50):
first thing on the agenda iserase everything that the other
party did.
Like it's that back and forth.
It's not like they want tocontinue building on, you know,
the successes that have beenmade.
It's you have to tear downfirst, right erase what has been
built, and then we'll buildsomething new on top it's not
even just in politics, right.
Ron (31:08):
it's sort of a management thing in general.
Right, what do you hear about?
Every time there's like somenew ceo comes to one of these uh
, you know studio companies,they immediately cancel the
projects that were slated to beproduced under the last team of
management and then they, youknow, start their own slate of
projects.
Right, it's a so are we sayingthere's like human ego plays
(31:30):
into?
Don (31:30):
this right?
Ron (31:31):
It's clearly not, even in the political sense.
It's clearly not um uh.
The destruction isn't just forthe good of the of of civics or
whatever right Of the of thesociety.
It is to highlight the newpeople in power, right.
Doug (31:48):
Yeah, there is certainly a CEO right now taking over a
company that is completely outof touch, saying he's going to
get Facebook views for thecompany by reorienting their
social media campaign, notunderstanding that it's a dead
website.
Don (32:02):
You're right yeah.
Doug (32:03):
Yeah, you're absolutely correct, it is, and I think that
maybe this is speaking tosomething in leadership as well,
because I think that there hasto be input from those that have
been there in order for thereto be success.
And but yet you, you're right.
Ron (32:17):
We see it over and over again, and if it comes to the
fact that we're putting yeah,dead guy on trial or display,
there's something wrongcertainly it's a management like
an issue of management ingeneral, because, uh, managers
and rulers and leaders theydon't actually like that's the
position that has the leasttangible product to back up
(32:39):
their value behind right likethey are not the people who
actually develop the policies orimplement the policies or
create any sort of product solike.
In order to show you're aneffective manager, you have to
be able to point to something,and it will be.
I made these commands and theseorders and told people to do
these things is right.
That also a part of it, I'massuming that somehow is similar
(33:00):
if you're a medieval Pope.
I don't know what you're reallydoing.
But you can say, like I purgedthe corruption of Pope Formosa
from our ledgers by undoing allof his acts right.
Don (33:14):
Right.
But then the next Pope comes inand puts those acts back in
place and then that's ratifiedby the third Pope after that.
But then the fourth Pope afterthat says no, those two guys
were wrong and puts all of thecrimes back in place on Formosa.
So currently Formosa is stillexcommunicated.
Ron (33:28):
Really they haven't changed that.
He's not.
He's not been.
My assumption was he was goingto be some saint now or
something.
No, he was?
Don (33:34):
he was for like six years under two popes and then third
pope, and then he seemed to justbe forgotten.
Ron (33:40):
Forgotten.
Don (33:41):
Formosa, poor guy.
But Harthacnut right does thisto his brother and his life
seems to be pretty good.
He's going to be married, hestands up at his wedding feast
in Lambeth and is going to toasthis good fortune and he falls
down mid-speech.
No, struck down by what uh,contemporary said, must be
(34:03):
divine judgment for thetreatment of his brother's
corpse.
And this is important becausethis was the danish line of
succession.
So hartha canute right hadinherited the throne from his
father.
Canute, who was the, was theDanish king, um, and, and the
next king is Edward theconfessor.
It goes back to the Anglo-Saxonline, because the people no
(34:24):
longer trust the, that the Daneshave the, the, the, the right
God on their side, or the powerof God on their side, and, uh,
and.
So it has a real effect in thehistory of of England because it
switches the line of successionfrom one family to a different
family.
Um, but that idea of God beingon your side, can we jump
(34:44):
forward another 300 years?
Doug (34:46):
Sure, but can I ask a question?
Yeah, don, I feel like you willknow this and I apologize if
you don't, no worries.
Where's Alfred in all of this?
Where is he?
Yeah, years-wise Dead in theground.
Thank you, I'm looking for Wasthis?
I'm trying to put my historytogether from the.
He'd be long before this right.
Ron (35:07):
You said 1100?
.
Don (35:08):
Yeah, he dies in 899.
Doug (35:11):
899.
And this is 1035.
Okay, I was just trying to seeif this was around the same time
.
Don (35:16):
Okay, I mean like it's geologically around.
The same time, it's almostinstantaneous.
Ron (35:21):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right.
Don (35:23):
Thank you.
All right, we're going to jumpforward to December 31st, 1384.
New Year's baby In Lutterworth,England.
Ron (35:32):
We're still in England.
Don (35:33):
We're still in England, so we've well it's it's kind of
yeah, it's the uh, but uh, um,we're going to meet a man named
John Wycliffe.
Ron (35:43):
Oh, I've heard this guy.
What is he?
What's he done?
Is he a?
What is he?
Is he?
Doug (35:48):
a pamphleteer, I know him.
He's the.
Uh, he's the.
Come on, don help me out.
Don (36:07):
This guy's name was in bold in a textbook at some point and
I had to write it down in anotebook.
Yeah, he's a priest and he diesuh, suffering a stroke during
mass.
But uh, tolly counts.
He dies relatively peacefullyafter the stroke event and uh
and is buried, okay, and then hereturned and that's the whole
story oh okay, it's been a greatepisode.
Doug (36:16):
Tell me about his brother.
Ron (36:18):
Rodney Wycliffe though no.
Don (36:21):
So the rest of the story is that he dies in 1384.
And then we're going to lettime lapse a little bit more.
We're going to jump all the wayup to 1415.
Ron (36:32):
Okay, all right, so that's going to be 28 years, 29 years
after he died.
He's not going to be very gooeythis time.
Johnny's coming back.
Don (36:39):
Probably all dried out by now, yeah, he's a mummy.
Yeah, so we have a council ofConstance, so it's an ecumenical
council called by the Pope tofight heresy, particularly some
of the uprisings in Bohemia thatwere.
This is is again pre Protestantreformation by about a hundred
(37:01):
years.
So it's, it's all layingfoundations for what will become
the Protestant reformation.
So right now everybody's stillRoman Catholic, but two things
happen that are important at thecouncil of Constance.
One of them is that they invitea another priest who is a
reformer, questioning some ofthe things like the uh the power
(37:22):
of the pope, and the uh the theright of tradition over
scripture, things like that, andhis name is jan hus and, uh, he
knew that he was undersuspicion by this council and
they gave him a promise of safeconduct to the council, which
they honored to get to thecouncil, and then they honored
to get to the council, and thenthey find him guilty of heresy
and burn him at the stake.
Ron (37:43):
Yeah, that's the old moth to the flame.
Don (37:47):
But this council also says hey, john Wycliffe, you know the
guy that's been dead for 28years.
We're going to call him aheretic too, because he was
raising these same questions.
We're going to call him aheretic too, because he was
raising these same questions.
As a matter of fact, he's theone that people like Jan Hus
were citing as evidence of theproblems they were having with
some of the theologicalproclamations of the Catholic
(38:08):
Church at the time.
And they declare John Wycliffea heretic as well.
And they say that he should bedug up and we should burn him at
the stake and scatter his ashesin the river.
Is what the sentence is.
Oddly enough, they don't do it.
So they pass the sentence in1415, say this should happen,
(38:28):
but they seem to be prettysatisfied that they've burned
Jan Hus alive, because it's dumb.
Doug (38:34):
Like let's just let sleeping dogs lie right, let's
let the dead man rest Dogs morethan sleeping.
Yeah, my goodness another,throw them in the river story so
why did they back out this time, though?
Ron (38:47):
was it just too far removed , or they were like, hey, let's
actually work through thelogistics of this, like what is
there to bury?
Don (38:54):
well.
So we're gonna get a little bitout of order in the story here,
but I think it's just becausethey forgot, or they like were
lazy, because they did it in1428.
They did it 14 years later.
They went back and said hey, 14years ago we said that we
should dig up this guy who'sbeen dead for 28 years.
So it's been 44 years now andwe're going to dig this guy up.
(39:15):
And they do, and they burn hisbones and they throw his ashes
into a river.
Um, and that river connects tothe Thames and the Thames goes
to the ocean.
A matter of fact, there's apoet that writes that very thing
that John Wycliffe, who theytried to erase from memory, has
instead encircled the globebecause his ashes have flown all
(39:35):
the way to the ocean.
And, rather than squashing thepower of his influence, the
church actually increased it,elevated it.
Ron (39:46):
So John Wycliffe is one of these early reformers, yeah, and
this is why they want tohereticize him.
Don (39:53):
Correct, but again, he's been dead for so long.
At what point do you just moveforward?
Ron (39:59):
To me, this means there must be a moment of crisis or
something right Like hey likethis, this reform uh, it is
really kind of catching on.
We need to uh remind them thatactually know all the, all the
people you think are smart andhave good ideas they're actually
terrible and worthy of beingscattered to the Thames.
Doug (40:18):
The dead man's river, the Thames.
Yeah, I can picture theconversation.
I wouldn't mind having aconversation about how we do
things with the church.
Well, I'll burn an old guy'sbones.
Ron (40:28):
I would so rather not have that conversation.
Doug (40:31):
Let's go dig up a dead guy , you're like when I burn this
guy's bones and throw him in ariver.
Good, stop questioning.
Don (40:39):
Well, you're right, though, that there is something
happening that is bringing thisto a head, and that has to do
with Jan Hus.
So, back in Bohemia, we havenow some wars called the Husite
Wars, based on his name, againstthe Husites, and they are super
clever.
So the church's main weapon isburning people alive, right?
So they have these heretics andthey're creating these martyrs
by burning them alive.
(40:59):
The Hussites are actually goingto the execution sites and
gathering up the ashes of themartyrs, and then they're
loading them in their weapons,called Hufnasa, which is the
word that we use.
That's where we get the wordhowards are from.
It's medieval artillery it'swhere we get the word howards
(41:20):
are from, so it's medievalartillery.
And so they're like little minicannons made out of wood and
they would fill them with stonesand with the ashes of these
executed heretics and they wouldblast those over the fighting
church army, and it's actuallyrecorded that the ashes raining
(41:42):
down upon the other soldierslike, would burn their skin.
So again, the, the, theheretics that they're trying to
erase, actually are the weaponthat the uh, the hussites are
using against the, the opposingarmy.
Doug (41:54):
That is the most warhammer 40 000 thing, I have ever heard
ever used the ashes of theheretic in the weapon.
Yeah, that's unbelievable,that's a great propaganda arm
messaging team, whoever's behindthat.
Don (42:08):
Uh, really awesome social media presence we're out there
burning the ashes see you outthere, enjoy your gaming so,
rather than, rather than like apassive veneration of the
martyrs, rather than a hey, wemust remember it, they're.
They're actually making theminto weapons.
Ron (42:27):
But that is why I'm uh, can I guess that things don't go
well for the hussites?
Uh, historically though, theydon't.
You're right they are.
They are defeated.
But I'm assuming that they arelaying a foundation, for I I
mean, we do know that theProtestants have their day in
the sun.
They do About 100 years later.
Don (42:45):
Luther starts the Protestant Reformation, which
then, of course, bleeds overinto England and Henry VIII has
the English version of theProtestant Reformation which
leads to, about 100 years afterthe Henry VIII, another
revolution that happens inEngland.
You know what happens in 1649?
.
Ron (43:04):
Yes, that's the the Renaissance.
Couldn't have been more psychedfor you to take that, though,
couldn't be more disappointed.
Couldn't have been more psychedfor you to take.
Doug (43:17):
that, though Couldn't be more disappointed.
Ron (43:23):
This is the Civil War.
Don (43:24):
Yeah, so the 1640s is the Civil War, the Cromwell.
Ron (43:28):
Right and in 1649,.
Doug (43:30):
we execute Charles I and who is installed to rule England
if we don't have a king?
Ron (43:39):
No one from the Renaissancenaissance, leonardo
da vinci oh, it's too slow.
Don (43:46):
Cromwell, all we're cromwell, yeah and he's the lord
protector, which has all thepowers of the king, but of
course he's not a king.
Um and uh, he does all kinds offun, things like uh, outlaw fun
, outlaw christ, outlaw thetheater.
Persecute the Irish Like what'snot popular about that agenda,
like I don't know why we haven'tpicked that one.
But he dies of natural causesin 1658.
(44:10):
His son takes over as LordProtector.
It's even worse, and so badthat the people start saying,
hey, let's bring that king guyback.
Didn't that king have a son, orsomething?
Ron (44:23):
Remember when the kings were better than this.
That's pretty bad.
Don (44:28):
So we're going to, Like I said, Cromwell's been dead.
It's 1661.
He's been dead for three yearsand we decide we need to execute
him.
So he was buried in WestminsterAbbey.
There's actually a stone there,it's right at the top of the
(44:50):
nave and you can see it.
But he was dug up from thatspot and drug to Ty uh and
hanged from sun up to sundown.
So I'm pretty sure he was deadat the end of that time.
Ron (45:03):
Yeah.
Don (45:04):
Cause I'm pretty sure he was dead for like three years
before that Big time.
And then we cut his head off,okay, and then we dip his head
in tar and we put it on top ofWestminster hall at Westminster
palace and it stays there from1661 to 1685, jeez.
And we didn't throw it in ariver this time, we didn't.
(45:25):
We just put it on a stick.
That way everybody who comes toyou know parliament can can see
it and say hi to.
hey, ollie, ollie ollie yeah andthe only reason it's not there
in 1665 is because there's astorm and the stick breaks, it's
lost.
So he falls down.
Ron (45:44):
No one knows where his head went well, uh, no, we do uh.
Don (45:49):
It was in private hands, though, um, from from 1685, all
the way up to uh to 1960 some,some family had it that long
yeah, um.
Well, actually in the early20th century there was two of
them, uh, floating around thatclaimed to be crown walls heads,
um, and in uh 1934, they did anexamination on one of them and
(46:13):
they determined that it was the.
It was the actual one, uh.
It was on display for a whileat Sussex college and then, in
1960, sussex college decidedenough's enough and they buried
the head.
Ron (46:26):
Oh yeah, so I wouldn't at that point.
No, it'd be like this isn't aperson anymore, this is a
historical anomaly and, uh, weneed to.
We need to up our graduate orour numbers, the other ones, the
ones coming in um so uh it.
Don (46:45):
It's still buried there at sussex college.
Apparently there's only threepeople who work at the college
that know the exact location ofthe head.
Um, so it's.
It's a secret, so that it's nota a shrine to uh to this guy
who overthrew the uh, the themonarchy, but uh.
But it's not a a shrine to uhto this guy who overthrew the uh
, the the monarchy, but uh.
But it's somewhere within thesewalls.
It says its location shallremain unmarked, its rest
(47:05):
undisturbed, lest history judge.
But let the dead lie in peace.
Is the statement from thecollege very casket?
Doug (47:12):
with montiato.
Who knows, who knows?
Ron (47:15):
we're fortunato so that one seems also I mean clearly
politically motivated, right, solike ideologically motivated,
more than that that one seemsthe least ego, egotistical of
them, right?
Unless who?
Who's the new king?
Who comes in?
They find a king and charlesthe second charles say and then,
charlie, was he the one beinglike yo, let's dig that guy up?
(47:38):
Or with this, uh, that's someother royalists, I presume, or
just part of their campaign oflike hey, we, we really love you
, charles ii.
And just to prove that we'llnever do that again, let's go
dig up oliver.
And yeah, no, it was charles iithat ordered the.
Don (47:54):
Okay yeah so maybe a little ego yeah, I think, well, and
you know you killed my daddy, so, yeah, a little uh, revenge, I
think, but uh, but again, likeso this is like formosus is
famous because he was the onlypope to be put on trial.
There's actually they call itthe cadaver synod, because it's
a collection of bishops andpriests that are meeting to
(48:18):
discuss, I guess, the Pope'shistory.
But, like so many timesthroughout history, we're
digging dead people up again andputting them on trial and
executing them and making a showof their corpse and desecrating
it.
And I guess my question is youknow why and we've been talking
about this all along right, butthe idea that you can control a
(48:40):
narrative about history andchange the way people remember
something because of how youchoose to treat somebody's
memory, right?
Ron (48:50):
It's like they believe they are finally carrying out
justice right, like justicecould not have been served in
their, in their living span onthis earth.
Therefore it is.
It is our job to restore thatsort of balance, right?
Uh, we, we have the power.
Um, I was thinking this alsolike.
If this is sort of, this seemsvery revenge motivated, but it's
(49:11):
also a method of revenge thatseems reserved for only very
powerful people right, yes.
You can't go and enter yourex-husband's grave and be like
I'm going to go throw him downthe San Bernardino River or
whatever.
So it is tied to politics, itis tied to power and I think
(49:36):
they would argue it's tied tojustice.
But I think we would argue thisdoesn't seem fair like justice
right?
Doug (49:42):
no, I don't think so.
It seems like the revision ofhistory.
Yeah, if that's something thatthey desired, it almost seems to
give more of a name to thesestories, even in the way that
you're telling.
I'm still waiting for you tobring back stephen six, like.
And then in 45 they found therecords of stephen six.
(50:04):
He was there, but I um, yeah,it seems to almost have the
opposite effect in almost everyrespect.
Where here we have thissituation?
Then he was struck down Uh, Ithink I'm going back to Knute's
sons right here and then he wasstruck down and they thought it
was because of how he treatedthat and that would 100% as, as
the one who believes in you, ifI want to believe.
(50:25):
I, I'm there and I'm going yep,shouldn't a mess with a Knut's
rightful choice, right Um?
Otherwise the aliens will getyou.
And then the aliens get you andwrap it up with a nice little
bow, right Um.
But yeah, it seems to have theopposite effect, that the more
that you try to affect thenarrative, especially by erasing
, it's amazing how that truthwill surface especially by
(50:49):
erasing.
Don (50:49):
It's amazing how that truth will surface.
Well, and, and that very pointis what strikes me about all of
these stories is the effort isto erase somebody's influence
and it actually ends upinflating their influence yeah
um, and especially in the casesof like john wycliffe and and uh
jan hoose and uh, and a guy,even oliver cromwell, like he,
you know, I'm sure he was notvery popular in 1658 when he
died, but like there's a statueof him outside of westminster
(51:13):
hall today for where parliamentmeets like so so his, his memory
, has been sort of rehabilitated, even though I don't know his
his movement is also more orless successful, right Like they
uh is credited with the.
(51:47):
Russian revolution, but notnecessarily always the the best
memories associated with him.
Um, but he's in a mausoleum andis still on display today.
Um, you know, uh gosh, it'scoming up on a hundred years
after his death.
Right Um butalin uh died in 1953, was embalmed and put next to
(52:11):
lenin right and he had that sameplace of honor um, and had this
like cult of personality aroundhim, which khrushchev?
Uh denounced and so secretly in1961, they waited till it was
dark and they took stalin outand now stalin is buried in a
hole in the wall, literally thekremlin wall, um uh, which is
(52:31):
not a place of honor, not aplace that is, you know where
he's, he's elevated, so, atfirst, like, his memory is held
up as you know.
Oh, this is, you know, a greatman who led a great country.
But then I don't know if morestories are out or more people
who are more comfortable tellingthose stories and all of a
sudden, we have to change that.
Franco in Spain, the same thingright was the fascist dictator
(52:54):
and not remembered well by mostpeople who have a memory of his
time.
But he has a giant monument.
But in 2019, we decide, no, heshouldn't have that giant
monument, and we take him outand they buried him in another
place, so we don't have that.
And then the Romanovs right,assassinated in the Russian
(53:17):
Revolution and denounced by theRussian political state for some
time.
And then, uh, they've beenrestored and and given proper
burials.
Ron (53:29):
Um, after some of their body parts had been found, um,
yeah, they like came back out ofnowhere, like in the 90s, right
like I remember being a kid andwatching that like propaganda
piece.
Anastasia with the talking batand being like oh, you don't
remember this movie.
Doug (53:44):
You think that my wife talking bat and being like oh,
you don't remember this movie,you think?
Ron (53:49):
that my wife doesn't love that movie.
Doug (53:50):
I didn't say that she loves it.
Ron (53:51):
No, but like that's it's all about how anastasia secretly
uh, you know, survives andactually actually there's still
a line to the old czars, andwouldn't that be cool if we
could restore them well in thosestories about anastasia might
be a good episode for us to lookinto, because there's actually
several possible anastasias.
Don (54:07):
They claim to be anastasia over the course of the 20th
century, but in the 1990s.
I think the reason that therewas a resurgence is because they
found some of the burial sitesand uh and those are the bones
that have been reburied.
Um, but even we can talk about,like the movement a few years
ago to remove, like Confederatemonuments.
Doug (54:28):
Right yeah.
Don (54:29):
Right, because it's that same idea of why were they
installed?
They were installed, you know,to placate, yeah, and to
memorialize a moment in historyand a version of history.
And now we want to change theway we remember those moments.
Yeah, to change the way weremember those moments, yeah,
right.
And there's like all of thesethings seem appropriate to me,
(54:52):
but it's not like we're diggingup a corpse and having a parade
with it.
Ron (54:55):
Yeah, it's a great question because I do think it's
something I think we touched onbefore.
But you kind of have to ask,like, what is the purpose of
history, right, and I think somepeople believe history is
literally scientific fact.
A historian is there trying touncover evidence and primary
documents in order to assert asclose to a historical truth as
(55:18):
possible, and I think that'svery romantic and a worthwhile
goal, but I don't know if it'sreally achievable.
Right, like in in.
In actuality, history hasalways been a very sort of
politically motivated process.
Right, going back to like theRoman emperors, right, and the,
(55:40):
the, the first historians, right, herodotus and all these kinds
of people, right, they're likealways have opinion when they're
telling you about the lines ofthese emperors who was good, who
was bad, why, um, and we cankind of trace the political
reasons why they would thinkthat.
Um, I guess I'm wondering, likeI don't know, like history
(56:01):
shouldn't part of me wants tosay like the, the truth of
history, um, shouldn't be asimportant as the way we use
history to some extent.
I know that sounds dangerous,that sounds like a slippery
slope, that sounds like a veryslow but, um, careful at least
when we're talking about, like,let's say, dead oliver cromwell,
(56:23):
right, like, is it important toget his story right or is it
important to utilize his storyfor the contemporary people who
are living at the moment.
You know what I mean.
Like I don't know if I feel astrong urge to like do justice
by oliver cromwell or pope fromosis, right, like, have their
story told the right way.
(56:44):
Um, I don't know if it mattersso much, but To offer you a
counter.
Doug (56:48):
There was an unbelievably dense game called Metal Gear
Solid 2 that was released over20 years ago.
That ended.
It's been over.
Pause now if you don't want thespoilers of the ending of Metal
Gear Solid 2.
The ending I remember when Iwas younger playing it.
I still think about this concepttoday.
It is absolutely absurd.
(57:10):
But basically you realize atthe end of the game that there
is a group controlling theUnited States government through
the use of artificialintelligence, that their goal is
specifically to regulate thatthere is too much information in
the world.
They predicted, like very earlythat there would be too much
information, that even in thecontext of history books, that
(57:32):
that's a good thing that thereare historians who can condense
the information, because oncethat much history hits and this
many versions of history and theopinions begin to chime, it
becomes a problem.
But if you look at our I meanespecially our world today, I
think that that is a hugeproblem.
Is like we do have so muchweight on which version of
(57:53):
history.
Is like I I'm saying this tosomewhat agree with you, ron and
then also like acknowledge thedanger in it of yes, it is
important how we look at historyand I think that we're seeing
it live with people that well,the version that I'm seeing
right now, based on everythingthat's happened, is this way,
(58:16):
but at the same time, you'recorrect in thinking that we're
never going to be able to get itexactly right because there is
going to be a guy who comesaround to completely alter.
Well, I've got my own personalagenda, so we will burn the
bones of this guy.
Don (58:25):
But even in that, there's a reaction that rewrites the
history again, that it almostsets it straight and on its on
its new path to achieve thenarrative that's supposed to be
there and I think the the ideathat well so the the journey
that we've been seeing thesedead take over the last hour or
(58:48):
so is that, even though theywere dead, they never were at
rest.
Their story continued to evolveand they continued to speak
through the way that they weretreated right and the way that
the remains were treated and thelegacy that that creates.
So I think the the lesson thatwe should take is is from the
living, who were attempting toerase the existence of those
(59:10):
histories, because that didn'twork.
But I think what is brave andwhat is the the difficult part
to face is saying no, this is apart of our history and, yes,
it's an uncomfortable, ugly partof our history, but I still
need to find a way to make itfit into my narrative and
understanding of how we havebecome good people today.
It's an uncomfortable, uglypart of our history, but I still
need to find a way to make itfit into my narrative and
understanding of how we havebecome good people today.
Yeah, and it's not aboutpretending that it didn't exist,
(59:32):
and it's not about not teachingit to the children at school
because we think it'suncomfortable or makes them
uncomfortable.
But how do we take the uglyparts and the good parts and
show how we're getting to abetter place than where we
started?
Doug (59:46):
That's correct.
Ron (59:47):
I like that.
I like that, okay, yeah.
Doug (59:51):
And I want to ask the both of you please burn my bones.
Don't let anyone do nothing tomy bones.
Put them in a cannon.
Don (59:59):
Call me a heretic Shoot them at the people Howitzer,
doug Howitzer.
Doug (01:00:03):
Doug.
Don (01:00:04):
Call me.
Doug (01:00:04):
Howie, now Howie.
Don (01:00:05):
Doug.
Call me Howie now, howie Doug.
Doug (01:00:07):
That's it.
Don (01:00:10):
Well, thank you guys for a good conversation today.
I appreciate it very much.
Ron (01:00:13):
Thank you very much, don.
You had me in the first halfbut really pulled it out there.
Doug (01:00:18):
Absolutely yeah, stevie Sixx baby, thank you.
So.
So that's how the raccoon gotthe sandwich and I got banned
from the park.
Ron (00:32):
That's insane.
Doug (00:34):
I never knew that about you, yeah well, that's how you
get holes in your socks, folks.
Don (00:38):
Hey everybody, Welcome back to the Uncannery.
I'm Don.
I'm.
Doug (00:42):
Ron, this is Doug here.
Don (00:44):
And gosh, you guys, guys, it's so good to see you.
Ron (00:46):
It's been forever yeah, it has been a very long time, at
least two hours.
Don (00:50):
Yeah, I was it was three, I think last time.
Doug (00:53):
Yes, yes, yes parting is such sweet sorrow and not sweet
enough oh well voters out thereuh listeners, yeah, well, voters
listeners.
We're polling right now to seewhether it's sweet or not.
Don (01:12):
That wasn't very nice, ron, that doesn't seem fair.
Ron (01:16):
No, it's just funny.
The humor is when you're mean.
Doug (01:22):
Depends on where it's coming from.
Don (01:30):
Well, speaking of fair, I was wondering, I wanted to ask
you I start us off tonight aboutyour sense of fairness and and
have you ever exercised orexperienced one of those moments
where, like justice just camethrough for you, like you knew
that was a time when the starsaligned and the world was right
and your good works had paid off, or whatever, and and justice
was there I think I distinctlyremember some childhood
(01:51):
arguments when I finally wasstarting to see behind the
curtain on parenting, and therewas a few things so like at
three.
Doug (02:02):
Oh man, I wish.
Uh.
No, this was much later.
I think one of the biggesterrors I ever made was why would
I go clean my room?
Your room's never clean.
Don (02:13):
That didn't go well is that when the spoon got broken?
No, that was me.
Yeah, that was my broabsolutely.
Doug (02:23):
Um, but yeah, there, that that was one, and as much as I
felt like I had the just at thetime, it came right back after
me, so I didn't exactly win thatone, yeah um.
Ron (02:34):
I feel like I'm very rarely am the recipient of justice um
not that I not that I don'tdeserve it stepped on ron.
The first thing that popped inmy head was uh, I used to work
at Costco, which is like awarehouse grocery store and I
worked in.
It's so large, it has a foodcourt and you can buy pizzas and
hot dogs there, and I used to.
I worked for two years there,like when I was in college, and
(02:57):
one night I was running thepizza window, which means you're
the guy who has to take all thepizzas out of the oven and then
cut them up and then hand themto the correct person who's
waiting at that window.
And if you're really behind,people are really mad and can
get like a really long lineoutside of that pizza window,
and I think this was one ofthose nights.
So a guy came up and I gave himhis pizza and I had pulled it
down and he said I pulled itdown from the rack too roughly
(03:21):
and that all of the pepperonis,yeah yeah yeah they had.
Don (03:25):
You heard the pizza feelings?
Yeah, yeah, exactly like they.
Ron (03:28):
He said all the pepperonis slid from one side to the other
completely ruined this pizza andI I looked at it.
He opened it up and it wasindistinguishable from any other
and I and he was.
He was like asking for anotherone.
I I'm like no, I'm not going togive you another pizza.
You are literally insane.
I didn't tell him that, but hejust kept getting madder and
(03:50):
madder and trying to bully meinto giving him a new pizza and
I said no, no, no, just like I'msorry.
Don (03:55):
No, I'm not.
Ron (03:56):
Like I should have as a low-level employee.
I should have just got this guyout of my hair and said like
sure, fine, here, whatever.
But I just wouldn't, as amatter of honor.
I was like no, you are soinsane.
I'm not letting anyone in thevicinity of this place think you
won this argument Right.
So he eventually leaves andthere was a there's a supervisor
(04:16):
behind him in line and she waslike, yeah, that guy was crazy.
Sorry, I'll totally vouch foryou if something comes of this.
Well, something did come of it.
The manager of the entire storecame to talk to me afterwards.
He said I don't care how crazythis guy had a big walrus
mustache and all southern-y.
I don't care how crazy that guywas, you give him the pizza.
Customer's always right.
Blah, blah, blah Chewed me outand that was that.
Don (04:41):
And if you'd given them the pizza, you probably would have
had that same conversation aboutgiving away the profits and how
you can't.
Yeah right right.
Ron (04:47):
Yeah, because you can't like accept a quote-unquote bad
pizza and then turn around andgive it to the next guy right
now.
Doug (04:52):
That's, that's a bad pizza do you know how many millions
we make a year?
Ron (04:56):
you're gonna give him a new pizza so I was really hoping
that the manager would come byand be like hey, yeah, sorry you
had to go, had to go throughthat, that guy was insane yeah
it's bad and I saw it.
Like three weeks later thatsame guy came in my window and
he was like at my register andhe knew that, did he recognize
you?
He recognized me and Irecognized him, but he seemed
ashamed.
Don (05:13):
Good, I think he was tweaking or something that day
it was really odd, andafterwards he was like oh,
pepperoni, shame had fallen.
Doug (05:21):
Yeah.
Ron (05:21):
Yeah, yeah, we've all we all have been there, right?
You just, you're really hungryand then, uh, afterwards you're
like, oh man, what was I doing?
Yeah, yeah.
Don (05:30):
A hundred percent.
So my, my story of justice wasuh, I was a senior in high
school, um, and I can't remember.
uh, 17, 18, but you know how youhave that, that overinflated
sense of righteous indignationyou know you're on the cusp of
citizenship and um, and my highschool had recently repainted
the parking lot and they made amistake when they did and one of
(05:53):
the student spaces had beenpainted the color of the staff
spaces.
But they knew it was a mistakeright after they did it, so they
only changed the color of thebumper, they didn't put the word
staff on it, they didn didn'tput the there's supposed to be
staff on it in two places, onthe bumper and on the ground,
and uh, and nobody would parkthere and it was a time when,
like, parking was at a premiumin my, at my house always has
(06:15):
been if you weren't.
If you weren't there 15 minutesearly, you were walking from
across the street.
So yeah, um, so, uh.
I decided I was going to startparking there, because I checked
the parking regulations thatare posted at the entrance to
the school and it said that theparking, the staff parking, had
to be marked by color and byword in two different places.
And it wasn't, and I got awaywith it for like about two weeks
(06:37):
or so, and then one day I walkout and I had a ticket on my car
and that was it.
The fire of indignation rosewithin me, I was going to march
right up to the, to the schooloffice and make sure that it was
handled.
But it was like a real ticket.
It was written by a policeofficer.
It wasn't like something theschool could just like wave a
wand the man's just trying tokeep you down, right but it's
(07:00):
okay because I took I I went tocourt as my first court
experience.
Ron (07:04):
Took that officer to court.
I did.
Don (07:08):
And I had heard I'd been told that because it was back
before you could look this stuffup online that you always
challenge a parking ticketbecause the officer never shows
up.
Ron (07:19):
Yeah.
Don (07:20):
So I'm waiting outside the courtroom and who walks in?
Ron (07:23):
Oh yeah, I was told they always do, because they get like
time and a half for showing up.
They're like incentivized to.
Don (07:29):
But for my like $30 parking ticket, like you know.
Come on, but it's his honor.
Ron (07:38):
He's going to defend his honor.
Doug (07:39):
That's right, he told his wife the night before when I go
into that courtroom, shelly, I'mgonna let him know what I wrote
these punks have been trying totake me down for years.
Ron (07:48):
If I give them one inch, today is the day I am the law
you're going down but uh, but Icame well prepared.
Don (07:57):
I had, um, I had a letter from uh, the principal saying
that, uh, that the parking spacewas intended to be a student
space and it was miss, uh,miscolored.
I had the uh, the sign that hadthe rules posted, um, and so it
was fun.
I got, I got a hearing.
There was a real judge andeverything, and I showed him all
my stuff and the judge justlooked at it and didn't even ask
(08:18):
the officer any questions otherthan well, officer Jobes, it
looks like there was a mistakehere, huh, and then dismissed
the whole thing.
It was awesome.
Officer Jobes left, head heldlow and you know what?
She didn't even look at me asshe left.
We didn't shake hands or hug oranything.
I was so happy.
Doug (08:37):
Well, that threw my whole thing out the window of him, the
officer I had in my head, goinghome to Shelly.
Don (08:43):
Not today.
Huh, I know her.
Her first name was Barbara.
Doug (08:48):
So it was definitely not a significant moment for Don.
That's what we know.
Yeah, I like that.
Don (08:55):
Cool, yeah, that's good.
Well, I wanted to have a storyfor you guys about justice,
about justice and about.
You know how important it is tothat justice is served in the
end.
I think we all know that.
Okay.
So, like usual, we're going togo back in time.
I'm going to go all the wayback to the twilight years of
(09:19):
the 9th century.
Ron (09:20):
Whoa 800s, late 800s, rome's falling no that's 450?
.
Doug (09:27):
Yeah, that's much earlier.
What's?
Ron (09:27):
happening in the 800s.
Rome's falling, that's 450.
What's happening in the 800s?
Don (09:30):
well, it depends because remember it might not have
existed but we're in Italy, soRome's a good guess.
We're going to hang out therefor a little bit and we're going
to meet a bishop named Formosus.
Ron (09:46):
Oh, that's like a name.
Don (09:47):
Yeah, and from all accounts he was a.
He was a good guy and very,very humble, like he took.
He didn't spend any money onanything, he slept on a bare
board so he didn't eat lavishlyOne of these real Christian
weirdos, exactly.
But he got a little bitsideways with the Pope, kind of
like most Christian weirdos.
Yeah, exactly, but he got alittle bit sideways with the
Pope, kind of like mostChristian weirdos.
(10:08):
Yeah, and in 876, he's put ontrial for disobedience and for
trying to usurp the papal throneand he has to actually sneak
out of Rome and he's disguisedby by followers and people help
him.
And there's even stories lateron that like there was
(10:30):
miraculous lights that were likefollowing him out of Rome or
leading him out of Rome, but heescaped.
UFOs, that's right.
Doug (10:36):
Yeah.
Don (10:37):
He, uh, he makes it out of Rome, um, but the Pope at the
time uh, winds up, uh, uh,excommunicating him and
stripping him of his bishophood,but that Pope dies.
We're in a time period wherethe average Pope reign was about
three years.
So if you get one Pope mad, youjust got to hang on for a
(10:59):
little bit, and it doesn't haveto.
Nature will correct itself.
Not Pope now Pope later, sohe's restored under Pope Marinus
I.
Is that where we named thetrench?
Probably yeah, I have no idea.
Ron (11:24):
The trench pope.
Don (11:26):
Eventually he's restored his bishopship.
His bishop is put back, andthen Marinus dies and Adrian
dies and Stephen V dies.
Ron (11:36):
He's outliving them all.
Don (11:37):
Yeah, it's 1891 and we need a new pope.
And guess who?
We elect Pope, the later PopeFormosa, pope, formosa, formosa.
Okay, so he goes from being abishop being excommunicated to
now he's pope.
Ron (11:51):
That's a pretty good Great arc.
Yeah, yeah, that's what youwant to see.
Don (11:55):
You think it's like a pinnacle of success, like you're
at the top of the Christianfood chain.
You're the pope, yeah, but in897 he's on trial again.
Oh, they can do that, you cantrial the pope.
So he's uh, he's put on trial.
He's prosecuted by a guy namedstephen the sixth and uh, and
stephen uh shouts at him duringhis trial, accuses him of
(12:16):
usurping the papacy.
For uh to to uh, to assuage hishis thirst for ambition.
Oh, ste, steve six.
Yeah, it's least cool name,steve so far, and uh and and and
for Moses sat silently thewhole time that the charges were
read.
He was silent as theaccusations were thrown at him.
(12:38):
He didn't say a single word.
While witnesses testified, hewas silent while they delivered
the guilty verdict that everyoneassumed was probably a foregone
conclusion.
They stripped him right therein the Lateran Cathedral of all
of his papal vestments.
They chopped off three fingersfrom his right hand.
Doug (12:59):
Can I pause you there?
We went from stripping to let'stake off some digits.
Yeah, why?
Don (13:07):
Well, those were the fingers that he had used to
bless people with as Pope, oh mygosh.
So they removed them.
I think it's these three theindex and middle and thumb and
even while they were removinghis fingers, he didn't say a
word, he didn't move.
Doug (13:22):
Now I'm scared.
Ron (13:23):
Yeah, and then he grew them back.
They had to go Because he wasan alien.
Don (13:33):
Now.
Then they had to go bury himagain because he was dead the
whole time.
He had actually died.
That's more ridiculous thanwhat I said Nine months before,
in 896.
And they didn't put him ontrial until January of 897.
Doug (13:50):
Don, you have quite the gift for storytelling I must
tell you, you really strung mealong there and I'm going.
Don (13:55):
Come on, man, okay but they did strip the dead guy, correct
?
Ron (14:00):
they did strip the dead guy , but that means someone that
had to dress the dead guy.
Don (14:03):
Yep uh, well, well, according to the stories, he was
actually dressed already,because they just had to go get
him out of the grave that he hadbeen placed in the tomb in in
the basement of saint peter's uh, basilica.
So he was already dressed as apope because he was dead and
buried and then, to give justiceto ron.
Doug (14:19):
At some point when he died , somebody did need to dress him
.
It just might not have beenright then that's true.
Don (14:25):
Somebody did dress him when he died.
That's true.
Ron (14:27):
We need to go to go back.
You need to Christopher Nolanthis for me so.
Don (14:33):
That he how long after he was dead, did this trial occur
Nine months.
He died in April of 1896.
What's a body like nine months?
Not good, I can imagine it's alittle gooey is what I would
think.
Ron (14:45):
Gooey, it's a ponification.
Don (14:46):
So he's there, he's there and it's actually reported in
the contemporary.
We don't have a lot of recordsfrom like.
We don't have the transcript ofthe trial.
There's only the one phrasefrom Stephen about his ambition.
That is recorded in some of thecontemporary versions of this
story.
But one of the things that isdefinitely recorded is the, the
stench that was emanatingthroughout the cathedral and I
(15:09):
don't know if you've ever beento the Lateran cathedral, but
it's not a small building and itwas that this is in Rome.
Ron (15:15):
It is in Rome.
Yeah.
What is our account here?
How do we know this information?
Are there multiple accounts ofthis story?
Are we basing this on?
Don (15:23):
one account.
There are multiple accounts,including decrees from popes.
After this happened, thatverified it happened and kind of
tried to undo some of this.
We'll we'll talk about in aminute.
Um and uh, some contemporaryaccounts of people who were
present and, uh, refused toparticipate.
Um, the fun fact about so, uh,for Moses was absolutely silent
(15:44):
during the trial process, butthey actually appointed a poor
deacon to like crouch behind himand like answer for him.
What so?
That way Steven could have alittle dialogue with him when he
was like throwing theseaccusations at him.
So if you ever wondered what'sthe like, you know dirty job.
Crouch behind the gooey corpseand speak for it in a trial that
(16:06):
you know he's going to be foundguilty.
Ron (16:09):
Raise your hand for that one.
Are you hiring the best or theworst?
Don (16:12):
actor for that job I can do anything.
Doug (16:16):
I can bring a personality to any stiff in town and like
I'm definitely doing a weirdvoice right, like oh.
And then we ask him again what?
Don (16:25):
does he say I'm going?
Doug (16:26):
to tell you a story Immediately.
Yeah, I'm going to tell you astory Immediately, yeah.
Ron (16:31):
So, um, is this the first?
Uh?
Was this thing happeningfrequently in the church?
Was this like were thereprotocols for this?
Or did Stephen one day show upand he's like I got a wild idea?
Don (16:44):
but trust me, Now that this is an invention of Stephen's.
So yeah, this is not somethingthat.
And it haslawed after it wasover.
Ron (16:56):
Everyone felt so gross.
Don (17:00):
Imagine yelling at this guy too, like he's raising his
voice.
It's just insane.
So a little bit of thebackground.
At one point Formosus, when hewas Bishop of Porto, was sent by
the Pope to Bulgaria, to thesemi-converted Bulgarians, to
try to finish that conversionand bring them into the fold of
(17:22):
the Roman Catholic Church.
Eastern Orthodox church fromConstantinople also had sent
some emissaries.
Um but uh, the King of Bulgariawas so impressed that he said
we'll all convert toChristianity as long as Formosa
stays as our Archbishop.
Wow, but that was against canonlaw because he already was an
(17:43):
Archbishop back in Porto.
So, um, he uh.
So that was the basis ofStephen's accusation was that he
was trying to to be bishop intwo places, which was a
violation of law, but he didn't.
He returned to Rome and andcarried out the rest of his
diplomatic duties.
He just was a really gooddiplomat.
Ron (17:59):
Yeah.
Don (18:00):
Um, but, uh, when he became Pope, there was a very powerful
family called the Spoletofamily.
Um, who, uh, it said that forMoses, uh, election to Pope was
unanimous, which would have beenvery unusual.
But the Spoleto family maybehad greased those wheels,
because right after he waselected Pope, he, um, he
(18:22):
appointed their 14 year old sonas the Holy Roman Emperor.
Oh yeah, but then during therest of his reign, which is only
five years, he turned back tothe Germans and he looked at a
person from Carthenia who hethen also appointed as the Holy
Roman Emperor, in competitionwith the Spoletos.
(18:43):
The later pope was supported bythe splutto, so we think that
the whole reason that he was puton trial in death was because
of the pressure from that familywanting to punish him for the,
uh, the embarrassment that itcaused at the time of uh
formosa's death, uh, was thatissue of the emperorship still
(19:04):
disputed?
it was.
And well, kind of was it?
It had been settled because heappointed the um, the guy from
carthinia, and then, sort oflike wink, wink, nudge, nudge,
said, hey, they're not reallyprepared, the Spoletos don't
have an army, why don't you comeon down here and see how nice
it is here in Italy?
And he did so.
It kind of got settled, but notin any sort of diplomatic way.
(19:28):
Yeah.
Ron (19:28):
Yeah, wow, of diplomatic way.
Don (19:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Ron (19:31):
Wow, and what did he?
What did he die of?
And is he?
Is this just an old age thing?
Don (19:37):
It is, yeah, just a, which is unusual and happy for him
because, like I said, a lot ofpopes were dying rather quickly.
Matter of fact, the Pope rightafter him, boniface the sixth,
only lasted 15 days.
Doug (19:50):
Bonnie.
Don (19:50):
Um so the sixth only lasted 15 days.
Um so, uh, there's some rumorsabout poisoning and things like
that, but boniface was supposedto have died of gout.
I don't know how you die ofgout, but maybe it's a thing.
Different definition back then.
Yeah, yeah, but uh, so afterthey find formosa's guilty, they
, like I said, they bury him ina pauper's grave.
So they're not back in the StPeter's tomb where he, or in St
(20:12):
Peter's Basilica in his fancyPope tomb Just throw him in the
ground.
But then Stephen says eh that'snot really good enough.
Let's dig him up one more time.
So they do, and they throw himin the Tiber River and watch him
float out to down the riverLike the heathen kings of old,
(20:34):
again trying to erase like any.
So annulled all of his papalactions, including things like
ordaining priests and bishops.
And guess who he had ordainedas bishop, stephen VI, before he
became Stephen VI?
Yeah, I must say they ignoredthat one, so they had to redo
hundreds of ordinations, um, but, and apparently a monk fished
(20:57):
him out of the river and uh, andat the spot where he was fished
out there was miracles reported, um and uh.
And so this idea that, uh,stephen was trying to control
that narrative and and eraseforosa's influence.
All of a sudden, formosa hasthis little cult of personality
around him and you know clearlyhe's a favored by God because
(21:17):
there's these miracles happening.
Yeah, and in August of 897,just six months after the trial,
guess who's arrested and thrownin jail?
Stephen Stephen the Six Stevieboy, oh my God.
And he's only in there for amonth until somebody goes into a
cell and strang in jail StephenStephen the Six Stevie boy, oh
my God, and he's only in therefor a month until somebody goes
into his cell and strangles him.
Doug (21:36):
That's really good, thanks for laughing.
Don (21:39):
Ron, that's a good one.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting thatto be the punchline.
Doug (21:42):
Well, if he doesn't laugh, he'll cry.
Ron (21:45):
This is some real clandestine Middle Ages stuff.
Right, it really is.
Don (21:51):
Well, and that was an extrajudicial strangulation, by
the way.
Ron (21:56):
So it wasn't a.
Did they care about that one?
Did they have to put his deadcorpse on trial?
They didn't Steven you get anopportunity here pal.
Doug (22:03):
Steven, who did it?
Tell us the guy behind him itwas well.
Ron (22:10):
It was my hot neighbor's wife she always had a thing,
yeah that's right.
Don (22:17):
So that's that's the first story I have for you.
Is this the idea of controllingthe narrative after somebody is
dead, like my like?
Why?
Why are we doing this?
Like I understand, like thesploto family didn't like
formosis, but like?
What are we accomplishing bydoing any of this except
grossing everybody out?
Ron (22:34):
Right?
Is there like there's a displayof power here, right to some
extent?
Like we have the power toexhume your corpse and cut off
your fingers.
Yeah, um, um there's, I guess,like uh is the Roman.
I feel like the Roman Catholicchurch is very interested in its
history, right and sort of likeuh, expunging any stains from
(22:58):
that history.
I mean, it's supposed to be the, the, the speakerphone for God.
Don (23:02):
right they're, they can't have any mistakes, but the um,
starting with Formosa's death,the papacy entered a kind of a
dark period with that, Like itwasn't, it wasn't the time of
its, of its greatest virtue.
It's actually referred to asthe the pornography.
Doug (23:19):
Whoa.
Don (23:20):
So about a hundred years of rule by some some not so nice
guys?
Ron (23:25):
This sounds like a great.
I want to see this film.
Trilogy the Pornocracy Getscensored in every single place
because of the name.
I want to see this film trilogythe.
Doug (23:31):
Pornocracy, yeah, yeah, gets censored in every single
place because of the name.
Well, and I even think I meanso, taking it away from the
context, I mean, it generallyseems to be the case that, like
infamy or even more, fame comesafter death, and so that's the
only thing that I can think ofis just that you would want to
go after somebody more in death,because now the conversation
(23:52):
isn't around what they'recontinuing to do, but what
they've done.
I think that would maybe bewhere it is, but you're telling
me that there's more there'smore okay, let's see if this
tracks all right.
Don (24:03):
So let's uh, let's go to england.
I'm there, we'll jump forward alittle bit.
In time we'll be here in the11th century.
Ron (24:10):
So still no tube, still no tube, yeah, the channel is not
there yet, just a couple ofyears shy.
Don (24:19):
So, king Canute.
Ron (24:22):
Oh cool.
Don (24:22):
Yeah, it was a.
Scandinavian king who had rulefor a little while after he
defeated some Anglo-Saxons.
Doug (24:30):
This is if you didn't know , there's a very, very popular
uh anime and manga that is goingaround right now that I also
very much enjoy, called vinlandsaga.
Ron (24:42):
I've seen a little bit of this.
Don (24:44):
I intended to watch more and I oh it's a treat I strongly
recommend and I am very excitedto see where this goes now so
he's mostly of danish descentand he, uh, um, he had two sons
that, uh, that both kind ofcompeted for what they thought
the vision of england would be.
(25:04):
Uh, one of his older son wasnamed hartha canute, which I
think means son of Canute, andhis other son was Harold
Hairfoot.
Doug (25:15):
That one got the short end of the stick.
Don (25:18):
He was called Hairfoot because he was super fast.
He was quick like a bunny.
Oh, not like hairy feet, nothairy feet.
Hairfoot like a rabbit Proudfeet.
He wasn't a hobbit.
Ron just entered the chat.
Ron (25:36):
What Hobbits you guys want to talk about?
Gondolin?
Don (25:41):
Anyways, these two brothers actually half-brothers have
different mothers, and whenCanute dies, Harthacnut happens
to not be in England.
Gosh darn it, he's home inDenmark.
So, even though Canute had saidthat Harthacnut was going to be
the next king, Harold says well, but I'm here, so might as well
(26:02):
be me.
Doug (26:03):
I'm the Canute you got.
Yeah, these fast feet can befast to the throne, baby.
Don (26:09):
So he takes the throne from his brother and rules England
for not very long.
Ron (26:18):
Is this where the parable of the rabbit and the tortoise
comes from?
Because his brother was so slowgetting back there.
Yeah, his sigil was a turtle orsomething, for sure, yeah.
Don (26:28):
Harold Harefoot winds up dying of natural causes at the
age of 24.
Ron (26:34):
Those are some natural causes.
Don (26:36):
Those are not, yeah, the prime of your life, didn't
really?
Live long back then, that'sright and his brother Harthacnut
then comes to England and takesback his brother harold harth
canute then comes to to englandand uh, and takes back his
throne.
But one of the first things hedoes is uh, finds his brother's
(26:57):
grave and digs it up, takes hisbrother out of the grave, throws
him in a swamp there's a themeof let's get him into some
watery substance?
Ron (27:09):
if not, yeah, get him out of the good ground, put him in
the bad ground.
Don (27:14):
But then he decides you know that's not enough.
So he gets him out of the swampand then they cut his head off
and then throw both of thosepieces into the dams, the river,
yeah.
Ron (27:30):
History repeats itself.
Watch him just sort of floataway okay, okay, yeah, so I mean
uh burial has always had likesignificance, right like uh, who
gets a burial and where are youburied?
I think like all human cultures, have always sort of attached
significance to that right it'sbeen meaningful.
So I I do understand the sort oflike no, you don't get to be
(27:53):
buried here, right?
Like where you're buriedmatters and you're a bad person.
You don't deserve to be buriedin the church, you don't deserve
to be buried in the King'smound or wherever, Right.
So I kind of understand thatpart.
I get like the logic behindthat.
Don (28:06):
Well, and, and that actually holds out with
contemporary records.
So part of the story at leastone version of it is that they
threw him into the swamp and itactually was a Danish fisherman.
A fisherman who was living inEngland, of Danish descent,
finds him in the swamp and pullshim out and buries him then in
the Danish cemetery.
And when Harthacnut finds outthat his brother, that he had
(28:29):
desecrated the grave of, has anew grave, that's when he
decides he's going to have to Idon't know execute him by
chopping his head off.
Ron (28:39):
Were there also miracles in that swamp?
Like all the eels here areincredibly attractive.
Don (28:46):
They're so tasty no, there was not um but uh.
But they did have a nice paradeof of harold's corpse, um,
dragged through the streets fromthe marshland to the river,
where, um, where they, uh, theycut his head off.
So, wow, yeah, again, likewhat's the, what's the message?
(29:07):
Right, because like, yes, it'sabout power, but again, like,
the guy's been dead and he'sbeen dead for for a while when
he comes back like he's uh, Ithink he's been dead for like
two years or something like that.
So, but like not not outside aliving memory of like the people
, right?
Ron (29:22):
this is seems symbolic, right?
It's like hey, look you.
Uh, my hair-footed brother wasa bit hair-brained and it was
wrong for you all to be ruled byhim.
So just keep in mind, I'm theguy in charge.
Now let's emphasize that bycutting off his head and
(29:43):
watching you watch this dopeparade yeah, because I mean it,
it's.
Doug (29:50):
It certainly sends a message, doesn't it?
I mean, I and I don't know,this is like, where I think of
like, uh, the expression gettingso medieval, like becomes it.
It's like this this is socommon, it seems, for the story
and like, even the fiction basedon story of like.
There always needs to beabsolutely violent change to
(30:10):
really establish dominance.
It's just insane.
Ron (30:13):
But is this like a principally a medieval
phenomenon?
Right, like it should be, belooking for the answers in the
kind of psychology and sociologyof these people, because they
did give a lot of significanceto things that we don't ascribe
significance to anymore, right?
Don (30:28):
They did.
But but like what it raises inmy mind is the way that Each new
generation of politicianbasically tries to erase all of
the efforts and successes of thegeneration before it,
especially when it's likeswitching parties, like when one
party is in control, they havean agenda and they try to do
things and as soon as the otherparty takes control, like the
(30:50):
first thing on the agenda iserase everything that the other
party did.
Like it's that back and forth.
It's not like they want tocontinue building on, you know,
the successes that have beenmade.
It's you have to tear downfirst, right erase what has been
built, and then we'll buildsomething new on top it's not
even just in politics, right.
Ron (31:08):
it's sort of a management thing in general.
Right, what do you hear about?
Every time there's like somenew ceo comes to one of these uh
, you know studio companies,they immediately cancel the
projects that were slated to beproduced under the last team of
management and then they, youknow, start their own slate of
projects.
Right, it's a so are we sayingthere's like human ego plays
(31:30):
into?
Don (31:30):
this right?
Ron (31:31):
It's clearly not, even in the political sense.
It's clearly not um uh.
The destruction isn't just forthe good of the of of civics or
whatever right Of the of thesociety.
It is to highlight the newpeople in power, right.
Doug (31:48):
Yeah, there is certainly a CEO right now taking over a
company that is completely outof touch, saying he's going to
get Facebook views for thecompany by reorienting their
social media campaign, notunderstanding that it's a dead
website.
Don (32:02):
You're right yeah.
Doug (32:03):
Yeah, you're absolutely correct, it is, and I think that
maybe this is speaking tosomething in leadership as well,
because I think that there hasto be input from those that have
been there in order for thereto be success.
And but yet you, you're right.
Ron (32:17):
We see it over and over again, and if it comes to the
fact that we're putting yeah,dead guy on trial or display,
there's something wrongcertainly it's a management like
an issue of management ingeneral, because, uh, managers
and rulers and leaders theydon't actually like that's the
position that has the leasttangible product to back up
(32:39):
their value behind right likethey are not the people who
actually develop the policies orimplement the policies or
create any sort of product solike.
In order to show you're aneffective manager, you have to
be able to point to something,and it will be.
I made these commands and theseorders and told people to do
these things is right.
That also a part of it, I'massuming that somehow is similar
(33:00):
if you're a medieval Pope.
I don't know what you're reallydoing.
But you can say, like I purgedthe corruption of Pope Formosa
from our ledgers by undoing allof his acts right.
Don (33:14):
Right.
But then the next Pope comes inand puts those acts back in
place and then that's ratifiedby the third Pope after that.
But then the fourth Pope afterthat says no, those two guys
were wrong and puts all of thecrimes back in place on Formosa.
So currently Formosa is stillexcommunicated.
Ron (33:28):
Really they haven't changed that.
He's not.
He's not been.
My assumption was he was goingto be some saint now or
something.
No, he was?
Don (33:34):
he was for like six years under two popes and then third
pope, and then he seemed to justbe forgotten.
Ron (33:40):
Forgotten.
Don (33:41):
Formosa, poor guy.
But Harthacnut right does thisto his brother and his life
seems to be pretty good.
He's going to be married, hestands up at his wedding feast
in Lambeth and is going to toasthis good fortune and he falls
down mid-speech.
No, struck down by what uh,contemporary said, must be
(34:03):
divine judgment for thetreatment of his brother's
corpse.
And this is important becausethis was the danish line of
succession.
So hartha canute right hadinherited the throne from his
father.
Canute, who was the, was theDanish king, um, and, and the
next king is Edward theconfessor.
It goes back to the Anglo-Saxonline, because the people no
(34:24):
longer trust the, that the Daneshave the, the, the, the right
God on their side, or the powerof God on their side, and, uh,
and.
So it has a real effect in thehistory of of England because it
switches the line of successionfrom one family to a different
family.
Um, but that idea of God beingon your side, can we jump
(34:44):
forward another 300 years?
Doug (34:46):
Sure, but can I ask a question?
Yeah, don, I feel like you willknow this and I apologize if
you don't, no worries.
Where's Alfred in all of this?
Where is he?
Yeah, years-wise Dead in theground.
Thank you, I'm looking for Wasthis?
I'm trying to put my historytogether from the.
He'd be long before this right.
Ron (35:07):
You said 1100?
.
Don (35:08):
Yeah, he dies in 899.
Doug (35:11):
899.
And this is 1035.
Okay, I was just trying to seeif this was around the same time
.
Don (35:16):
Okay, I mean like it's geologically around.
The same time, it's almostinstantaneous.
Ron (35:21):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right.
Don (35:23):
Thank you.
All right, we're going to jumpforward to December 31st, 1384.
New Year's baby In Lutterworth,England.
Ron (35:32):
We're still in England.
Don (35:33):
We're still in England, so we've well it's it's kind of
yeah, it's the uh, but uh, um,we're going to meet a man named
John Wycliffe.
Ron (35:43):
Oh, I've heard this guy.
What is he?
What's he done?
Is he a?
What is he?
Is he?
Doug (35:48):
a pamphleteer, I know him.
He's the.
Uh, he's the.
Come on, don help me out.
Don (36:07):
This guy's name was in bold in a textbook at some point and
I had to write it down in anotebook.
Yeah, he's a priest and he diesuh, suffering a stroke during
mass.
But uh, tolly counts.
He dies relatively peacefullyafter the stroke event and uh
and is buried, okay, and then hereturned and that's the whole
story oh okay, it's been a greatepisode.
Doug (36:16):
Tell me about his brother.
Ron (36:18):
Rodney Wycliffe though no.
Don (36:21):
So the rest of the story is that he dies in 1384.
And then we're going to lettime lapse a little bit more.
We're going to jump all the wayup to 1415.
Ron (36:32):
Okay, all right, so that's going to be 28 years, 29 years
after he died.
He's not going to be very gooeythis time.
Johnny's coming back.
Don (36:39):
Probably all dried out by now, yeah, he's a mummy.
Yeah, so we have a council ofConstance, so it's an ecumenical
council called by the Pope tofight heresy, particularly some
of the uprisings in Bohemia thatwere.
This is is again pre Protestantreformation by about a hundred
(37:01):
years.
So it's, it's all layingfoundations for what will become
the Protestant reformation.
So right now everybody's stillRoman Catholic, but two things
happen that are important at thecouncil of Constance.
One of them is that they invitea another priest who is a
reformer, questioning some ofthe things like the uh the power
(37:22):
of the pope, and the uh the theright of tradition over
scripture, things like that, andhis name is jan hus and, uh, he
knew that he was undersuspicion by this council and
they gave him a promise of safeconduct to the council, which
they honored to get to thecouncil, and then they honored
to get to the council, and thenthey find him guilty of heresy
and burn him at the stake.
Ron (37:43):
Yeah, that's the old moth to the flame.
Don (37:47):
But this council also says hey, john Wycliffe, you know the
guy that's been dead for 28years.
We're going to call him aheretic too, because he was
raising these same questions.
We're going to call him aheretic too, because he was
raising these same questions.
As a matter of fact, he's theone that people like Jan Hus
were citing as evidence of theproblems they were having with
some of the theologicalproclamations of the Catholic
(38:08):
Church at the time.
And they declare John Wycliffea heretic as well.
And they say that he should bedug up and we should burn him at
the stake and scatter his ashesin the river.
Is what the sentence is.
Oddly enough, they don't do it.
So they pass the sentence in1415, say this should happen,
(38:28):
but they seem to be prettysatisfied that they've burned
Jan Hus alive, because it's dumb.
Doug (38:34):
Like let's just let sleeping dogs lie right, let's
let the dead man rest Dogs morethan sleeping.
Yeah, my goodness another,throw them in the river story so
why did they back out this time, though?
Ron (38:47):
was it just too far removed , or they were like, hey, let's
actually work through thelogistics of this, like what is
there to bury?
Don (38:54):
well.
So we're gonna get a little bitout of order in the story here,
but I think it's just becausethey forgot, or they like were
lazy, because they did it in1428.
They did it 14 years later.
They went back and said hey, 14years ago we said that we
should dig up this guy who'sbeen dead for 28 years.
So it's been 44 years now andwe're going to dig this guy up.
(39:15):
And they do, and they burn hisbones and they throw his ashes
into a river.
Um, and that river connects tothe Thames and the Thames goes
to the ocean.
A matter of fact, there's apoet that writes that very thing
that John Wycliffe, who theytried to erase from memory, has
instead encircled the globebecause his ashes have flown all
(39:35):
the way to the ocean.
And, rather than squashing thepower of his influence, the
church actually increased it,elevated it.
Ron (39:46):
So John Wycliffe is one of these early reformers, yeah, and
this is why they want tohereticize him.
Don (39:53):
Correct, but again, he's been dead for so long.
At what point do you just moveforward?
Ron (39:59):
To me, this means there must be a moment of crisis or
something right Like hey likethis, this reform uh, it is
really kind of catching on.
We need to uh remind them thatactually know all the, all the
people you think are smart andhave good ideas they're actually
terrible and worthy of beingscattered to the Thames.
Doug (40:18):
The dead man's river, the Thames.
Yeah, I can picture theconversation.
I wouldn't mind having aconversation about how we do
things with the church.
Well, I'll burn an old guy'sbones.
Ron (40:28):
I would so rather not have that conversation.
Doug (40:31):
Let's go dig up a dead guy , you're like when I burn this
guy's bones and throw him in ariver.
Good, stop questioning.
Don (40:39):
Well, you're right, though, that there is something
happening that is bringing thisto a head, and that has to do
with Jan Hus.
So, back in Bohemia, we havenow some wars called the Husite
Wars, based on his name, againstthe Husites, and they are super
clever.
So the church's main weapon isburning people alive, right?
So they have these heretics andthey're creating these martyrs
by burning them alive.
(40:59):
The Hussites are actually goingto the execution sites and
gathering up the ashes of themartyrs, and then they're
loading them in their weapons,called Hufnasa, which is the
word that we use.
That's where we get the wordhowards are from.
It's medieval artillery it'swhere we get the word howards
(41:20):
are from, so it's medievalartillery.
And so they're like little minicannons made out of wood and
they would fill them with stonesand with the ashes of these
executed heretics and they wouldblast those over the fighting
church army, and it's actuallyrecorded that the ashes raining
(41:42):
down upon the other soldierslike, would burn their skin.
So again, the, the, theheretics that they're trying to
erase, actually are the weaponthat the uh, the hussites are
using against the, the opposingarmy.
Doug (41:54):
That is the most warhammer 40 000 thing, I have ever heard
ever used the ashes of theheretic in the weapon.
Yeah, that's unbelievable,that's a great propaganda arm
messaging team, whoever's behindthat.
Don (42:08):
Uh, really awesome social media presence we're out there
burning the ashes see you outthere, enjoy your gaming so,
rather than, rather than like apassive veneration of the
martyrs, rather than a hey, wemust remember it, they're.
They're actually making theminto weapons.
Ron (42:27):
But that is why I'm uh, can I guess that things don't go
well for the hussites?
Uh, historically though, theydon't.
You're right they are.
They are defeated.
But I'm assuming that they arelaying a foundation, for I I
mean, we do know that theProtestants have their day in
the sun.
They do About 100 years later.
Don (42:45):
Luther starts the Protestant Reformation, which
then, of course, bleeds overinto England and Henry VIII has
the English version of theProtestant Reformation which
leads to, about 100 years afterthe Henry VIII, another
revolution that happens inEngland.
You know what happens in 1649?
.
Ron (43:04):
Yes, that's the the Renaissance.
Couldn't have been more psychedfor you to take that, though,
couldn't be more disappointed.
Couldn't have been more psychedfor you to take.
Doug (43:17):
that, though Couldn't be more disappointed.
Ron (43:23):
This is the Civil War.
Don (43:24):
Yeah, so the 1640s is the Civil War, the Cromwell.
Ron (43:28):
Right and in 1649,.
Doug (43:30):
we execute Charles I and who is installed to rule England
if we don't have a king?
Ron (43:39):
No one from the Renaissancenaissance, leonardo
da vinci oh, it's too slow.
Don (43:46):
Cromwell, all we're cromwell, yeah and he's the lord
protector, which has all thepowers of the king, but of
course he's not a king.
Um and uh, he does all kinds offun, things like uh, outlaw fun
, outlaw christ, outlaw thetheater.
Persecute the Irish Like what'snot popular about that agenda,
like I don't know why we haven'tpicked that one.
But he dies of natural causesin 1658.
(44:10):
His son takes over as LordProtector.
It's even worse, and so badthat the people start saying,
hey, let's bring that king guyback.
Didn't that king have a son, orsomething?
Ron (44:23):
Remember when the kings were better than this.
That's pretty bad.
Don (44:28):
So we're going to, Like I said, Cromwell's been dead.
It's 1661.
He's been dead for three yearsand we decide we need to execute
him.
So he was buried in WestminsterAbbey.
There's actually a stone there,it's right at the top of the
(44:50):
nave and you can see it.
But he was dug up from thatspot and drug to Ty uh and
hanged from sun up to sundown.
So I'm pretty sure he was deadat the end of that time.
Ron (45:03):
Yeah.
Don (45:04):
Cause I'm pretty sure he was dead for like three years
before that Big time.
And then we cut his head off,okay, and then we dip his head
in tar and we put it on top ofWestminster hall at Westminster
palace and it stays there from1661 to 1685, jeez.
And we didn't throw it in ariver this time, we didn't.
(45:25):
We just put it on a stick.
That way everybody who comes toyou know parliament can can see
it and say hi to.
hey, ollie, ollie ollie yeah andthe only reason it's not there
in 1665 is because there's astorm and the stick breaks, it's
lost.
So he falls down.
Ron (45:44):
No one knows where his head went well, uh, no, we do uh.
Don (45:49):
It was in private hands, though, um, from from 1685, all
the way up to uh to 1960 some,some family had it that long
yeah, um.
Well, actually in the early20th century there was two of
them, uh, floating around thatclaimed to be crown walls heads,
um, and in uh 1934, they did anexamination on one of them and
(46:13):
they determined that it was the.
It was the actual one, uh.
It was on display for a whileat Sussex college and then, in
1960, sussex college decidedenough's enough and they buried
the head.
Ron (46:26):
Oh yeah, so I wouldn't at that point.
No, it'd be like this isn't aperson anymore, this is a
historical anomaly and, uh, weneed to.
We need to up our graduate orour numbers, the other ones, the
ones coming in um so uh it.
Don (46:45):
It's still buried there at sussex college.
Apparently there's only threepeople who work at the college
that know the exact location ofthe head.
Um, so it's.
It's a secret, so that it's nota a shrine to uh to this guy
who overthrew the uh, the themonarchy, but uh.
But it's not a a shrine to uhto this guy who overthrew the uh
, the the monarchy, but uh.
But it's somewhere within thesewalls.
It says its location shallremain unmarked, its rest
(47:05):
undisturbed, lest history judge.
But let the dead lie in peace.
Is the statement from thecollege very casket?
Doug (47:12):
with montiato.
Who knows, who knows?
Ron (47:15):
we're fortunato so that one seems also I mean clearly
politically motivated, right, solike ideologically motivated,
more than that that one seemsthe least ego, egotistical of
them, right?
Unless who?
Who's the new king?
Who comes in?
They find a king and charlesthe second charles say and then,
charlie, was he the one beinglike yo, let's dig that guy up?
(47:38):
Or with this, uh, that's someother royalists, I presume, or
just part of their campaign oflike hey, we, we really love you
, charles ii.
And just to prove that we'llnever do that again, let's go
dig up oliver.
And yeah, no, it was charles iithat ordered the.
Don (47:54):
Okay yeah so maybe a little ego yeah, I think, well, and
you know you killed my daddy, so, yeah, a little uh, revenge, I
think, but uh, but again, likeso this is like formosus is
famous because he was the onlypope to be put on trial.
There's actually they call itthe cadaver synod, because it's
a collection of bishops andpriests that are meeting to
(48:18):
discuss, I guess, the Pope'shistory.
But, like so many timesthroughout history, we're
digging dead people up again andputting them on trial and
executing them and making a showof their corpse and desecrating
it.
And I guess my question is youknow why and we've been talking
about this all along right, butthe idea that you can control a
(48:40):
narrative about history andchange the way people remember
something because of how youchoose to treat somebody's
memory, right?
Ron (48:50):
It's like they believe they are finally carrying out
justice right, like justicecould not have been served in
their, in their living span onthis earth.
Therefore it is.
It is our job to restore thatsort of balance, right?
Uh, we, we have the power.
Um, I was thinking this alsolike.
If this is sort of, this seemsvery revenge motivated, but it's
(49:11):
also a method of revenge thatseems reserved for only very
powerful people right, yes.
You can't go and enter yourex-husband's grave and be like
I'm going to go throw him downthe San Bernardino River or
whatever.
So it is tied to politics, itis tied to power and I think
(49:36):
they would argue it's tied tojustice.
But I think we would argue thisdoesn't seem fair like justice
right?
Doug (49:42):
no, I don't think so.
It seems like the revision ofhistory.
Yeah, if that's something thatthey desired, it almost seems to
give more of a name to thesestories, even in the way that
you're telling.
I'm still waiting for you tobring back stephen six, like.
And then in 45 they found therecords of stephen six.
(50:04):
He was there, but I um, yeah,it seems to almost have the
opposite effect in almost everyrespect.
Where here we have thissituation?
Then he was struck down Uh, Ithink I'm going back to Knute's
sons right here and then he wasstruck down and they thought it
was because of how he treatedthat and that would 100% as, as
the one who believes in you, ifI want to believe.
(50:25):
I, I'm there and I'm going yep,shouldn't a mess with a Knut's
rightful choice, right Um?
Otherwise the aliens will getyou.
And then the aliens get you andwrap it up with a nice little
bow, right Um.
But yeah, it seems to have theopposite effect, that the more
that you try to affect thenarrative, especially by erasing
, it's amazing how that truthwill surface especially by
(50:49):
erasing.
Don (50:49):
It's amazing how that truth will surface.
Well, and, and that very pointis what strikes me about all of
these stories is the effort isto erase somebody's influence
and it actually ends upinflating their influence yeah
um, and especially in the casesof like john wycliffe and and uh
jan hoose and uh, and a guy,even oliver cromwell, like he,
you know, I'm sure he was notvery popular in 1658 when he
died, but like there's a statueof him outside of westminster
(51:13):
hall today for where parliamentmeets like so so his, his memory
, has been sort of rehabilitated, even though I don't know his
his movement is also more orless successful, right Like they
uh is credited with the.
(51:47):
Russian revolution, but notnecessarily always the the best
memories associated with him.
Um, but he's in a mausoleum andis still on display today.
Um, you know, uh gosh, it'scoming up on a hundred years
after his death.
Right Um butalin uh died in 1953, was embalmed and put next to
(52:11):
lenin right and he had that sameplace of honor um, and had this
like cult of personality aroundhim, which khrushchev?
Uh denounced and so secretly in1961, they waited till it was
dark and they took stalin outand now stalin is buried in a
hole in the wall, literally thekremlin wall, um uh, which is
(52:31):
not a place of honor, not aplace that is, you know where
he's, he's elevated, so, atfirst, like, his memory is held
up as you know.
Oh, this is, you know, a greatman who led a great country.
But then I don't know if morestories are out or more people
who are more comfortable tellingthose stories and all of a
sudden, we have to change that.
Franco in Spain, the same thingright was the fascist dictator
(52:54):
and not remembered well by mostpeople who have a memory of his
time.
But he has a giant monument.
But in 2019, we decide, no, heshouldn't have that giant
monument, and we take him outand they buried him in another
place, so we don't have that.
And then the Romanovs right,assassinated in the Russian
(53:17):
Revolution and denounced by theRussian political state for some
time.
And then, uh, they've beenrestored and and given proper
burials.
Ron (53:29):
Um, after some of their body parts had been found, um,
yeah, they like came back out ofnowhere, like in the 90s, right
like I remember being a kid andwatching that like propaganda
piece.
Anastasia with the talking batand being like oh, you don't
remember this movie.
Doug (53:44):
You think that my wife talking bat and being like oh,
you don't remember this movie,you think?
Ron (53:49):
that my wife doesn't love that movie.
Doug (53:50):
I didn't say that she loves it.
Ron (53:51):
No, but like that's it's all about how anastasia secretly
uh, you know, survives andactually actually there's still
a line to the old czars, andwouldn't that be cool if we
could restore them well in thosestories about anastasia might
be a good episode for us to lookinto, because there's actually
several possible anastasias.
Don (54:07):
They claim to be anastasia over the course of the 20th
century, but in the 1990s.
I think the reason that therewas a resurgence is because they
found some of the burial sitesand uh and those are the bones
that have been reburied.
Um, but even we can talk about,like the movement a few years
ago to remove, like Confederatemonuments.
Doug (54:28):
Right yeah.
Don (54:29):
Right, because it's that same idea of why were they
installed?
They were installed, you know,to placate, yeah, and to
memorialize a moment in historyand a version of history.
And now we want to change theway we remember those moments.
Yeah, to change the way weremember those moments, yeah,
right.
And there's like all of thesethings seem appropriate to me,
(54:52):
but it's not like we're diggingup a corpse and having a parade
with it.
Ron (54:55):
Yeah, it's a great question because I do think it's
something I think we touched onbefore.
But you kind of have to ask,like, what is the purpose of
history, right, and I think somepeople believe history is
literally scientific fact.
A historian is there trying touncover evidence and primary
documents in order to assert asclose to a historical truth as
(55:18):
possible, and I think that'svery romantic and a worthwhile
goal, but I don't know if it'sreally achievable.
Right, like in in.
In actuality, history hasalways been a very sort of
politically motivated process.
Right, going back to like theRoman emperors, right, and the,
(55:40):
the, the first historians, right, herodotus and all these kinds
of people, right, they're likealways have opinion when they're
telling you about the lines ofthese emperors who was good, who
was bad, why, um, and we cankind of trace the political
reasons why they would thinkthat.
Um, I guess I'm wondering, likeI don't know, like history
(56:01):
shouldn't part of me wants tosay like the, the truth of
history, um, shouldn't be asimportant as the way we use
history to some extent.
I know that sounds dangerous,that sounds like a slippery
slope, that sounds like a veryslow but, um, careful at least
when we're talking about, like,let's say, dead oliver cromwell,
(56:23):
right, like, is it important toget his story right or is it
important to utilize his storyfor the contemporary people who
are living at the moment.
You know what I mean.
Like I don't know if I feel astrong urge to like do justice
by oliver cromwell or pope fromosis, right, like, have their
story told the right way.
(56:44):
Um, I don't know if it mattersso much, but To offer you a
counter.
Doug (56:48):
There was an unbelievably dense game called Metal Gear
Solid 2 that was released over20 years ago.
That ended.
It's been over.
Pause now if you don't want thespoilers of the ending of Metal
Gear Solid 2.
The ending I remember when Iwas younger playing it.
I still think about this concepttoday.
It is absolutely absurd.
(57:10):
But basically you realize atthe end of the game that there
is a group controlling theUnited States government through
the use of artificialintelligence, that their goal is
specifically to regulate thatthere is too much information in
the world.
They predicted, like very earlythat there would be too much
information, that even in thecontext of history books, that
(57:32):
that's a good thing that thereare historians who can condense
the information, because oncethat much history hits and this
many versions of history and theopinions begin to chime, it
becomes a problem.
But if you look at our I meanespecially our world today, I
think that that is a hugeproblem.
Is like we do have so muchweight on which version of
(57:53):
history.
Is like I I'm saying this tosomewhat agree with you, ron and
then also like acknowledge thedanger in it of yes, it is
important how we look at historyand I think that we're seeing
it live with people that well,the version that I'm seeing
right now, based on everythingthat's happened, is this way,
(58:16):
but at the same time, you'recorrect in thinking that we're
never going to be able to get itexactly right because there is
going to be a guy who comesaround to completely alter.
Well, I've got my own personalagenda, so we will burn the
bones of this guy.
Don (58:25):
But even in that, there's a reaction that rewrites the
history again, that it almostsets it straight and on its on
its new path to achieve thenarrative that's supposed to be
there and I think the the ideathat well so the the journey
that we've been seeing thesedead take over the last hour or
(58:48):
so is that, even though theywere dead, they never were at
rest.
Their story continued to evolveand they continued to speak
through the way that they weretreated right and the way that
the remains were treated and thelegacy that that creates.
So I think the the lesson thatwe should take is is from the
living, who were attempting toerase the existence of those
(59:10):
histories, because that didn'twork.
But I think what is brave andwhat is the the difficult part
to face is saying no, this is apart of our history and, yes,
it's an uncomfortable, ugly partof our history, but I still
need to find a way to make itfit into my narrative and
understanding of how we havebecome good people today.
It's an uncomfortable, uglypart of our history, but I still
need to find a way to make itfit into my narrative and
understanding of how we havebecome good people today.
Yeah, and it's not aboutpretending that it didn't exist,
(59:32):
and it's not about not teachingit to the children at school
because we think it'suncomfortable or makes them
uncomfortable.
But how do we take the uglyparts and the good parts and
show how we're getting to abetter place than where we
started?
Doug (59:46):
That's correct.
Ron (59:47):
I like that.
I like that, okay, yeah.
Doug (59:51):
And I want to ask the both of you please burn my bones.
Don't let anyone do nothing tomy bones.
Put them in a cannon.
Don (59:59):
Call me a heretic Shoot them at the people Howitzer,
doug Howitzer.
Doug (01:00:03):
Doug.
Don (01:00:04):
Call me.
Doug (01:00:04):
Howie, now Howie.
Don (01:00:05):
Doug.
Call me Howie now, howie Doug.
Doug (01:00:07):
That's it.
Don (01:00:10):
Well, thank you guys for a good conversation today.
I appreciate it very much.
Ron (01:00:13):
Thank you very much, don.
You had me in the first halfbut really pulled it out there.
Doug (01:00:18):
Absolutely yeah, stevie Sixx baby, thank you.
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