Shadows of the Season: Krampus, St. Nicholas, and Frau Perchta

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Have you ever wondered how a kitschy grandma's garden ornament could end up in a museum? Join us as we kick off the holiday season with this light-hearted tale, which sets the stage for a heartwarming exploration of Christmas traditions. We'll take you down memory lane with cherished customs from my childhood, like the labor-intensive yet rewarding tradition of making tamales with my dad's Mexican side of the family. Despite my youthful grumbles, these moments were filled with laughter and love, capturing the essence of family bonding during the festive season.

But it's not all sugar and spice—discover the chilling lore of Krampus, Santa's dark counterpart from European folklore. This fearsome figure, with his sinister, goat-like appearance, has long served as a cautionary tale for naughty children. We'll unravel the origins of Krampus and his eerie partnership with St. Nicholas, exploring how these legendary figures have shaped behavior through storytelling. By contrasting these stark traditions with the cheerful gift-giving of Santa Claus, we bring to light the fascinating ways cultures have used folklore to instill values.

As we journey through the evolution of Christmas customs, we examine how these traditions have morphed across continents and generations. From the whimsical "Elf on the Shelf" to the enduring Bavarian and Austrian Krampus runs, we question the effectiveness of fear-based versus reward-based holiday customs in modern times. Tune in for a festive yet thought-provoking discussion on the magical aspects of these traditions and the joy they continue to bring. Wishing you all a merry, magical Christmas season, safe from the clutches of Krampus and full of warmth and cheer.

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Episode Transcript

Don (00:27):
And, and.
So that's how my grandmother'splastic flamingos wound up at
the city museum.

Doug (00:34):
It makes sense.
It makes sense.

Ron (00:36):
Can you start over?
I don't know, have you seenthem?

Doug (00:39):
I haven't but.
I've heard about them yeah.

Don (00:42):
Well, hey, welcome everybody.
Welcome back to the Uncannery.
I'm.

Ron (00:46):
Don, I'm Ron.

Doug (00:49):
I'm Doug Still, despite many rumors Doug's still here.
Even though he messed up thedate of doom in the last part.
Gosh just blew it royally.
It's 1993 for anybody who wasupset.

Don (01:04):
You only missed it by three weeks.
It's not bad.
No, it was just barely 93.
It's like Oscar season, it'sgoing to haunt me forever.
Wow.

Doug (01:14):
As it should.
Thank you, thank you.
I really appreciate it.

Don (01:17):
When you get your next tattoo, you can put the date and
that way you'll make up for it.
How'd you know?
I have a tattoo for everymistake he's ever made, because
we had a whole podcast episodeabout your, your japanese tattoo
suit that I don't have.
But that's all well.
Hey, everybody, welcome to thechristmas season.
Are y'all ready for christmas?

Ron (01:36):
you know what?
I don't think it's beenchristmas for me until right
this second like I think, youneed an initiating moment yeah
it's not just december 1st, Ithink for some people it is, but
for me I need something tosmash me into Christmas.

Don (01:48):
Well, that's exactly what we're going to talk about.
Actually is the thing thatsmashes a lot of people into
Christmas.
But before we talk about that,their credit card bill.
I think that's after.

Ron (01:59):
That's the Christmas hangover?

Don (02:00):
Yeah for sure.

Doug (02:02):
That's the big one.

Don (02:05):
But tell me about Christmas at your house.
So, growing up, what wasChristmas like?
What did you look forward to asa kid, what was the traditions?
How did it work?
And yeah, well, actually waitbefore we do that.
So, before you tell me aboutall this, we need to warn our
uncannibals at home that we aretalking about Christmas
traditions today and just wantto be cautious that any of our

(02:27):
young believers are aware thatthis may not be the episode for
you, if that's who you are.

Ron (02:35):
Exactly because some Christmas traditions can get
pretty wild, Indeed.

Don (02:38):
That's exactly right.
And what else would we talkabout, but the wild ones here on
the?

Ron (02:42):
Uncannobled.
That's all we want to do,that's right.
Christmas was always an awesometime for me.
I'm not, I'm like, not a guywho can complain about christmas
.
Good, um, uh, we had, like,yeah, several traditions, but
maybe like the biggest one waslike, uh, we go to my dad's side
of the family.
Uh, the mexican side of myfamily would make tamales every,
uh, christmas eve, which islike a pretty common tradition.

(03:05):
Um, and you know, it would belike a whole day, like
experience.
You get there early in themorning and like my grandma
would be grinding the masa,which is like the, the cornmeal,
like filling that you put hey,you guys have tamales, you guys.
Oh yeah, everyone knows what atamale is, not on christmas but
yeah, yeah, um, I hated them,like as a kid, like just hated,

(03:28):
like this is not something Ilike doing.
As a kid it was like, hey, theday before christmas you want to
go do like 10 hours of work.
Yeah, yeah, it's like you'reeither like cleaning the ohas,
which is like the corn husk thatyou put the filling in, or
you're spreading the masa on it,or you're filling it with the
the meat, or you're watching itboil and you're talking to your

(03:48):
like weird aunt, uh, you knowabout whatever, um, and then at
some point like eventually thekids like we're clearly no
longer good at working at thisand we get to like go play with
the n64 in the living room yeahthat was awesome but it always
culminated like late at nightwith we would do all the
presents from that side of thefamily.
It was be like a giant giftexchange.
We'd fit like I don't know 25people or something into a tiny

(04:11):
living room and it was just likecacophonous and massive, like
people were like buried undergifts.
It was awesome, it was.
That was like.
It was like worth it.
It was worth, it was worthworking in the tamale kitchen
just to get to the festival.

Don (04:23):
Did you ever figure out that if you would mess the
tamales up on purpose, that N64time would start earlier?

Ron (04:29):
You know what?
Honestly, to this day, we stillgo.
In a few weeks I'll be over atmy grandpa's house making
tamales again and, honestly, Iam the guy who's the worst at it
and I've always just had theposition of least importance and

(04:49):
I think I finally graduated tolike the venerated position of
guy who just sits outside andwatches the water boil, which is
exactly where I want to be,because I've just never really
enjoyed the process.
And I I do like them now, but asa kid I was like these tastes,
these are terrible, like whyaren't we?
Making pizzas or something coolWow.

Doug (05:03):
So ungrgrateful I love that you launched into it.
Like I can't complain aboutchristmas, I love christmas.
I spent 10 hours slaving overthese things.
Actually, I hate christmas.

Ron (05:14):
Well, it's just like being a kid and having a dumb attitude
.
You know like just not knowinghow well, you have it like yeah,
that was like it was a fun,like my whole you know dad side
of the family got together.
I got to see my cousins andlike you know it was like a cool
thing that doesn't reallyhappen as much anymore.
We still go and do it, butthere's fewer people around now,
as naturally happens, and uh,you know it's, it's a different,

(05:36):
yeah I were.

Doug (05:38):
Ours was weird.
Um, we were always doingsomething different every
christmas.
It felt like I mean we've doneeverything from I'm going to
cough Hold on just a moment,excuse me We've done everything
from the traditional it's goingto be Christmas ham and we're
all getting together.
We've gone to the movies onChristmas, we have done

(06:01):
enchiladas for Christmas, we didlike advent calendars at all
the different houses and what'dyou get?
Like were there little toys inhere or chocolates or whatever?
One year I feel like we werekind of strange in that we were
always doing something different.
The only mainstay was it waslike one of the only times that
my mom had my mom has twosisters Like we would just get

(06:23):
all the cousins together.
It was just a guaranteed.
It was going to be at one ofthe houses or grandma's and we
were going to get all thecousins together.
That was the mainstay.
We were always going to be witha majority of the family.
But then activities rotated.
There were some years we had atree.
There were some years we didn't.
Then we had the plastic tree.
It's weird because we had themost all over the place

(06:48):
Christmas experience.
Yeah, it was always differentevery Christmas generally.

Don (06:50):
Yeah, yeah, we didn't have, uh, we didn't have a menu for
Christmas.
Christmas was always like,sometimes it was taco casserole
and sometimes it would always bedifferent and nothing like
traditional, like we didn't doham and turkey and nothing like
traditional Christmas feasty,but, uh, um, but we always are
unusual, um, uh, tradition whichisn't that unusual, but I think

(07:14):
it is in America, is our giftexchange was on Christmas Eve,
so our big family party was onthe 24th.
Um, everybody would come overand and we'd exchange gifts then
, and then that kind of freed upChristmas day, um which then,
um, everybody would come overand and we'd exchange gifts then
, and then that kind of freed upChristmas day, um, which then,
um, uh, what's going to be?
My next question is whathappened on Christmas day for
you all?

Ron (07:33):
Yeah, so in the morning, that's when we do the big gift
exchange.
That's where Santa's gifts arethere.
Wow, sick Cool, you know.
Um, sometimes they'd be hiddenfrom sight, you know, or?

Don (07:44):
or you know like an.

Ron (07:45):
Easter egg.
I think one time our parentslike, pulled the like oh wow, it
looks like you didn't get thatmuch this year, right, and we
were all just sitting there like.
Oh my God, this is the worstChristmas ever.
They just wanted us to be sour,crummy kids and then suddenly
they like opened the closet,like actually there's a bunch of
crap in here, um.
So yeah, we would always dothat.
And then oftentimes that's whenwe go to my mom's side of the

(08:07):
family and that's when we'd havethe fancy kind of like
Christmas lunch.
I suppose that was like ham androlls and potatoes and stuff,
but, um, yeah, we didn't have amenu so much.
But another thing I love aboutChristmas was like that night
we'd like just go get fast foodor something.
It was like, okay, all thefancy stuff, and my dad would
just run out and like who's openjack-in-the-box?
We just get crummyjack-in-the-box, or one night he

(08:28):
like got us denny's, like to melike I, I, I.
That was like a part of it too.
It was like, hey, we had allthis fancy stuff.
We had a big party on christmaseve, uh, we went and had fancy
brunch at uh you know, mygrandma and grandparents, and
then at night, it's time to justeat dill taco as you do.

Doug (08:47):
Yeah, but he drove all the way to Barstow to get the good
one.

Ron (08:52):
Yeah.

Doug (08:53):
That's right.
Yeah, uh, christmas day wastime for presents for me as well
, and that was, yeah, same thing.
It was just all kinds ofdifferent traditions.
Sometimes it was Christmas Evewe do with the whole family, and
then it was just immediatefamily during Christmas day.
Um, yeah, and it's interestingbecause, like, I haven't thought
about this in a while, butgenerally, yeah, we always.

(09:13):
It was something differentevery year and it's same thing
applies to Christmas day.
I'm kind of the worst person toask about what's your big
tradition?
It's like seeing family, forsure, but other than that,
everything was all over theplace.
But we would open presents onChristmas day, yeah, absolutely.

Don (09:28):
Our.
So our Christmas day wasfocused just on gifts from Santa
.
And then um, which was greatbecause, uh, um, it kind of
broke the the excitement down alittle bit and so the big family
part, like our family, likeextended family, would come.
We'd have like 25, 30 people inour house on Christmas Eve and
then, um, christmas day it wasjust the immediate family for

(09:49):
the most part, which was nicefor me for a little while.
But I'm the youngest child, sowhen my older siblings started
having children, I mean I hadSanta Claus for like 45 minutes
and then we had to go to mybrother's house or to my
sister's house for their SantaClaus.

Ron (10:05):
So yeah, the holidays get crowded right as you start to
grow like definitely you know,having to go to in-laws, houses
and stuff now, for I feel likefor you know like once I started
like dating my wife, wife, youknow, and you're starting to now
, instead of like your twograndparents, set of sets of
grandparents you get now you gotlike four right like yeah,

(10:28):
fitting like four holidays intothe span of two days and there's
a kind of like fun.
Like I look back on some ofthose like fondly it was kind of
fun, just like gettingwhiplashed and thrown around
into as many different partiesand settings as possible.
There's a there's a kind oflike hectic mania of the
holidays which, like, is easy tocomplain about.
But I also kind of love right.
It's like that's part of whatmakes it unique, Like trying to

(10:50):
shove as many like social eventsand things into this one
section of the calendar.

Don (10:56):
It's like skydiving.
It's nice to look back on thisone section of the calendar.

Ron (10:59):
It's like skydiving it's nice to look back on, but not
necessarily look forward to Goodold Christmas.

Don (11:06):
What would happen?
If well, why did Santa Clausbring you?
What was the?
So what was the story yourparents told you?
Why was Santa Claus bringingyou gifts?

Ron (11:13):
Oh, he, uh, he's bringing us gifts, cause we were good,
Cause we were good boys and gals, because we got good grades.

Doug (11:19):
We got to find out who's naughty or nice.

Ron (11:22):
Yeah, because we didn't cause physical harm to each
other that year.

Don (11:26):
And what would happen if you were not good.

Ron (11:29):
Lumps of coal.
Yeah, I'm trying to think ifthat ever actually happened.

Don (11:35):
If we ever like, if that threat was ever.
Oh, everybody was good, exceptRon.

Ron (11:40):
I want to.
I don't know I might be makingthis up, I'll have to ask my mom
, but I feel like one year oneof us did get coal.

Don (11:48):
Just a coal.
That's all they got.

Ron (11:51):
No, I think they must have gotten a gift, but there was one
threatening piece of coal to belike.
By the way, you were reallyskating on ice this year.
I might be making that up, butI can't.
I don't think my parents hadthe like gumption to that would
cause an absolute.
You know, that'd be like athat'd be like a revolt causing
event, if one kid didn't receivesomething but the threat was

(12:13):
there is that fair to say thatwas always?

Don (12:15):
was it when you were reminded of that, like I would
imagine you were reminded ofthat?

Ron (12:18):
Like Doug, I would imagine you were reminded of that all
the time.
Yeah, because you were aterrible kid, as we've
established.
Yeah, wow.
I think, I was moremild-mannered as a child.

Doug (12:25):
It was my later life that I became absolutely wild and
feral.
But yeah, I'm sure that I was.
I remember my sister getting itfor sure for behavior and I
guess it's a good way.
For yeah, santa's not going togive you that gift.
You're probably going to haveto tell the line.

Ron (12:43):
Hmm, yeah, I don't know if, like my parents talked about
like you better be good, so much.
I don't think that really wastheir tack, but like in my head
I was like, oh, it's time to begood, otherwise.
I remember thinking that inlike June, like Santa's going to
remember this if I do somethingbad, and I really want the
airplane from tailspin this year, so like, yeah, I better stay
on, stay on.

Don (13:03):
So, yeah, how, how effective was it?
When did you start, uh, youryour christmas planning and and
when to be good and when to bebad, was it?
Because for me it was, honestly, it was like thanksgiving, like
as long as you're good afterthanksgiving, that was like that
was the window I see, christmaswas like the event of the year
for me I feel, like as a kid Ilive for christmas, yeah,

(13:23):
because, um, I loved stuff, Iloved getting stuff.

Ron (13:29):
What a consumer you are.
I told 100 you're the perfectamerican.
Really I am, and I think likeI'm like ashamed about this Like
to this day, I like stillreally get thrilled at the idea
of like opening a present youknow, like just receive.
I tried to think of myself aslike a very non-materialistic
person.
I'm not like always out there,you know, buying the newest

(13:51):
phone or whatever.
Like I wear my shoes until theyare scraps of leather and stuff
like that.
But like I think because it wasinstilled in me at a young age,
it was awesome to like.
I used to get like cool PowerRanger action and my parents
were like went all like all out.
They were like crazy.
They were like very devotedgift givers.
They would like go to insanegarage sales and stuff to find

(14:11):
like you know, it was like, uh,you ever seen the movie?
What's that?
Arnold Schwarzenegger, Chrisjingle all the way.

Doug (14:16):
Oh yeah, they were like yes, turbo man.
And.

Ron (14:19):
Phil Hartman.
Yeah, they were doing that likeevery year to find us like
exactly what we wanted and theylike never failed, so like they
set a really high bar and uh.
So all I'm saying is, yes, Iwas good because I wanted the
stuff.
Yeah.

Doug (14:34):
Clearly you were good yeah .

Don (14:36):
Well, I, I want, good, yeah , well, I, I want to show you,
um, some pictures of some acouple things.
So, so I got some christmascards for you and then you
mentioned a little while ago,ron, that uh, that that you need
like an event, an event thatlike signals, hey, christmas is
here, yeah, and I have picturesof that event for you.
So I wondered if you could, uhcould, take a look at those
pictures and and describe thechristmas spirit, the Christmas

(14:59):
spirit that you are proceedingthrough, these Christmas cards,
and then, of course, theChristmas event that is pictured
there.

Ron (15:06):
Yeah, so it looks like.
On this first Christmas card wehave the picture of a satanic
demon with a child strapped tohis back.
That's good so this is a verydark furry bipedal creature that
has the hooves of a goat andhuman arms.
It looks like he's holding somesort of flagellation whip Birch

(15:27):
sticks.

Don (15:28):
It is Okay, thank you.

Ron (15:29):
He's got a long tongue.
He's got a Gene Simmons tonguethat's coming out of his mouth.
He's got two red horns.
Strapped to his back is a redbarrel, with a child whose uh
mouth is like in an oh, likeexpression and there are two
children fleeing from thepresence of this monster and

(15:49):
then the background's a verypastoral white uh of course,
snowy alpine.

Don (15:54):
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.

Ron (15:56):
So christmassy is what you're describing oh yeah, this
is exactly what we did onchristmas.

Don (16:00):
We stared at it ran away from goat demons.

Ron (16:03):
Yeah, yeah that sounds like a fun christmas I think I've
seen this personage before.
May I may I hazard a?

Don (16:11):
yeah, please, who are you looking at?
Is this krampus?

Doug (16:14):
this is krampus yeah, krampus like with an au.
I always heard.

Ron (16:19):
Krampus.
I heard Krampus too, but I'massuming it's Krampus with the
German R Krampus.

Don (16:26):
That's the one.
Do you want me to look at thenext card?

Ron (16:31):
we have another Krampus Krampus and it says on the top.
It says and he is again a darkgoat-figured man, with an even
bigger tongue this time Histongue is growing with the ages.
And he's shoving a veryDutch-looking boy into another
wicker sack and this boy'ssister is sitting next to the

(16:56):
sack and seems completelyunfazed by the kidnapping of her
brother.
What a nice sister and she'sholding a basket that looks like
it's full of pears.
Does Krampus give pears?

Don (17:06):
to good people.
She must've been the good, thegood child, yeah.

Ron (17:09):
Yeah, she's very happy.
Why don't?

Don (17:12):
you skip ahead to the photographs and and that's
describing the, the Christmasevent.
That kind of signals the startof Christmas season.

Ron (17:20):
Yeah, so it looks like OK.
Now we're here at like aRammstein show or a haunted
house that has a man dressed asKrampus or presumably, or an
animatronic Krampus, and he'sgot this like kind of death face
mask with these big giant ibexhorns coming off, and he's
wielding a pitchfork and he'sstaring straight at the uh at

(17:42):
the screen, and he's shouting atus.
Here's another shot of multiplecrompuses.
Oh my gosh, there's a parade ofcrompus.
Uh, here's another one with hisbig long tongue, and it looks
like they're just marching downthe street, some sort of
european street yeah.

Don (17:57):
So what do you know about crampus Other than I mean, you
obviously know something causeyou recognize him, but uh, do
you know anything about thestory, what, uh, what Krampus,
how he represents the Christmasspirit?

Doug (18:08):
From the very little I could be misinformed about.
If you're great, you getvisited by um.
I don't think it's even.
Santa Is by I don't think it'seven.

Don (18:19):
Santa.

Doug (18:19):
Is it St Peter, st Nicholas, st Nicol Duh?
Why am I thinking?
Oh, it's because isn't therealso a story about Black Peter.

Ron (18:27):
Black Peter, what's up with Black Peter?

Don (18:30):
That's the Dutch version.

Doug (18:32):
We'll talk about that.

Ron (18:34):
It's either St Nicholas or, if you don't do well, so he had
a counterpart right.
Krampus is nega Santa,anti-santa.

Don (18:47):
And what would he do if you were bad?
So Santa brings you gifts andApparently puts you in a sack.

Doug (18:51):
Yeah it looks like he's stealing you from this world.
Yeah, like you get presents outof a sack or you're going to be
somebody else's present, youget sacked.
From the sack.

Don (19:00):
Absolutely, and he would, he would.
He would kidnap you and takeyou to hell and then eat you at
some point.

Ron (19:08):
Oh, so you never came back?

Don (19:09):
No, yeah, the carpenter took you Now to warn you like if
you weren't bad enough to bekidnapped.
That was what the bird stickswere for.

Doug (19:19):
He would just beat you, oh nice.
So sometimes just a lightbeating.

Don (19:22):
Yeah, if you were only a little bad, then you just got
the beating, and if you werereally bad, then you just
disappeared.

Ron (19:27):
So very different from modern times where if you're a
little bit bad, you just getthree less gifts, right?

Don (19:34):
And a warning call yeah, yeah, so, okay's, he's taking
kids to hell yeah, yeah, so heis from hell, he is, he is a
hell spawn.
Um, it's not really clear wherehe comes from, but he does have
access to it.
One other thing, one otherdetail you'll notice on uh, on

(19:57):
those cards is uh is, uh, he is.
He is bound with chains, so hedoes.

Ron (20:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, he had shackles orsomething.
Yeah, except when they let himfree in the holiday season.

Don (20:06):
So he seems to be a demon like creature, but is controlled
by or is, is subjugated to theChristian will.
That's what the changerepresented.
So he will, that's what thechange represented.
So he.

Ron (20:21):
He does take you to hell because that's where bad
children belong, apparently.
Uh, before they die, just likeyou're so bad, we're not even
gonna wait.
Yeah, just taking you now.

Doug (20:27):
You'll be going there and you're gonna be eaten.
Sure?
Can we just talk about howextreme this is from a lump of
coal, like like lump of coalinstead of presence.
How about?
You're going to hell and you'regoing to be eaten, wow.

Don (20:40):
That's actually one of the questions I had for you is why
such an extreme difference?
So where is Krampus from?
Do we know?
Do you guys know that?

Ron (20:50):
Oh, not hell.

Don (20:52):
Well, I mean not.
I mean where is the tradition?

Ron (20:54):
Where does the tradition of ?

Don (20:55):
Krampus originate.

Ron (20:56):
It looks some sort of Northern European, some weird
winter people.

Don (21:00):
I was doing more than the winter people, the weird winter.
This looks like some weirdwinter people.
It's the Nordics.
Yeah, it's like black metalOnly people who don't see the
sun can come up with this.

Doug (21:11):
If you thought black metal was scary, wait till you hear
about Krampus, yeah.

Don (21:16):
It is not quite that far north.
They've got a different monsterin, uh, in the true
Scandinavian.
This is uh, is is uh higherelevation, germany, germany.

Ron (21:26):
Austria.

Don (21:26):
Switzerland is yeah.

Ron (21:30):
Gromvus Kampus.

Doug (21:34):
I just wanted to play along.
It's good to have you.

Ron (21:38):
So how long ago do they have this guy?

Doug (21:40):
though Is he like?

Ron (21:42):
all the way back?
Does he predate Christ?

Don (21:48):
Well, that's an excellent question.
Looking at him, looking at theiconography of him, what would
you say?

Doug (21:53):
I mean, does he look Christian?

Ron (21:55):
He looks pagan, he looks very pagan yeah there's a lot of
parallels here to like uhinterpretations of satan right.
They got the the bipedal goatanatomy he's got the horns on
his head.
He's all black the tongue.

Don (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, satan's got a tongue I meant the long
tongue the long tongue is afeature of the icon spend a
Milton spent a lot of timewriting about Satan's tongue, so
is this so is Krampus informedby imagery of Satan, or is Satan
informed by?

(22:29):
Imagery of Krampus, or are they?

Ron (22:31):
simultaneous, simultaneous.

Doug (22:34):
Interesting.

Don (22:36):
But well, before we talk about, about the, the, the
origins of, of Krampus, let'scan we talk first about why he
needs to exist.
So imagine we say no, of course.

Ron (22:50):
Yeah, thanks.

Don (22:52):
Uh, what if?
Uh, so.
So the idea of like Santa'sgifts, to go back to our
childhoods, right Is, is,there's a little bit of coercion
there, right Is, as a child,you must behave, and young Ron
would behave so he could get histailspin airplanes.
Um and and so it was a way tolike extend the, uh, the threat

(23:13):
of Christmas throughout the year.
Right, and you need to be goodor else you won't get your, your
present.
Um, for, for the, the threat ofkrampus is a little bit more
serious, because if you're notgood, it's not that you don't
get the gift that you want, it'sthat you will disappear.
Yeah, and apparently yoursister won't care because she'll
just be distracted by her pears.

Ron (23:32):
Yeah, yeah so there's like an echo here of like is this
like a children's version oflike sermons or something you
know like?
Because it seems to me there'salways been a clear like kind of
threat in a lot of Christiandoctrine right.
Past a certain point right, likeI'm kind of fuzzy on this, but

(23:54):
like the existence of hell orthe threat of hell, has not
always been like a component ofChristianity, right, um, and I
feel like somewhere in themiddle ages, european
Christianity it's like reallygloms onto this idea of hell
right as a punishment, right.
So, um, there's a, there'salways been a sort of immortal

(24:15):
reward or an immoral punishment,uh, according to a lot of like
church doctrine.
Uh, for adults, right, but isthis a way to like interpret it
for children, to sort of dumb itdown for kids, or you know, or
like like, hey, you better actthis way or else you'll die yeah
.

Doug (24:29):
Yeah, You're going to hell regardless but you can either
go fast, yeah, yeah.

Ron (24:34):
Now it's a goat man taking you there Is that part of it.
It seems like a key componentto me.

Don (24:39):
Oh, I think that's an interesting postulation.
The truth is, though, is thatthe Krampus threat was actually
invented for adults.
Oh, really, and it has laterbeen translated, so it's a later
evolution of the Krampus legendthat it's for children.
So the early threat was was foradults to uh to behave.

Ron (25:02):
When do we have like a?
Kind of like when is the firstKrampus threat?

Don (25:07):
So 1375 is the first recorded instance of masked
figures dressed as a, as aKrampus, like uh uh creature
wandering the um the streets.

Ron (25:18):
Oh, so these photos we were seeing.

Don (25:20):
This is always those are not from 1375.

Ron (25:22):
Yeah, they're awfully high def, but so this has always been
a tradition.
People always mask up and walkaround town.
Not always since 1375.

Don (25:29):
Oh sure, sure.

Ron (25:30):
Right, that's basically always.

Don (25:33):
It's 1,300 years after Christ.
So one of the things we weretalking about is whether this is
a pagan origin story, and it issomething that people believe
is pagan origin because of theiconography, but the
documentation tells us that it'sfirst recorded in 1375.
And then, interestingly, in the1582 is the first time we get a

(25:54):
church, a document, that says,hey, we should stop doing this
Krampus thing Cause he lookslike the devil.
Oh, so that's like 200 years,though.
So there's 200 years of of thislegend growing and the
tradition growing and uh and andKrampus existing as this this
wintertime threat, until thechurch stumps in and says, hey,

(26:17):
maybe we shouldn't do this Causeit just scares the kids, and uh
, and looks like the devil.

Ron (26:21):
And then like some, the Pope was like no, actually, we
should make it for the kids.
Don't you remember this one?
You?

Doug (26:28):
better not pout.
I'm telling you why Krampus isgoing to drag you to hell.

Don (26:34):
It just brings back the childhood when you sing that
thing.
That's beautiful yeah.

Doug (26:38):
Was it this?
This?
Uh, shut this down immediatelyif it's going to be too much of
a rabbit trail.
But is it?
Is it Beelzebub?

Ron (26:45):
Is that the he's the Lord of flies.

Doug (26:47):
Is he the one that's like featured as like the goat kind
of face, that's like sittingcross-legged with like the
finger sign and everything else.

Ron (26:54):
No, that's um.
Who is that?
I was just reading aboutSatanism.

Don (27:01):
What are the odds?
Let me tell you what you'regetting for Christmas.

Doug (27:04):
Pain.

Ron (27:06):
No, that's.
It's not Asmodeus, but I don'tthink that's Beelzebub.
Beelzebub is like the oldest.
There's a lot of like.
I'm looking this up.
There's an evolution of Satanright and like the modern Satan
is a very Miltonian Satan.
The fallen angel Lucifer.
But, beelzebub, is this in theMiltonian universe, right, yeah,
he kind of throws them all andhe makes them like side
characters right.

(27:26):
But like I think Beelzebub isalmost like an Old Testament, oh
yeah, like he even predatesmaybe the Abrahamic religions.
It's a very kind of likeMesopotamian version of like a
most artistic depictions, verymuch like a fly You're right,
yeah, yeah.

Doug (27:42):
Let's just look up goat demon.
Anyway, continue.
I'm sorry guys, all right.

Don (27:47):
Um, but the uh, the the origin of the tradition is is
really obscure.
So we don't know why.
Somebody sat down and said, hey, we sat down and said, hey, we
need a goat creature that'sgoing to threaten to kidnap
people if they don't.
But, um, but if you think aboutthe uh, like what typically
happens in winter time, what'sthe tradition, what's the we

(28:08):
were talking about?
Uh, if you're good, santabrings you stuff, stuff cool
things do you guys know wherethat came from?

Ron (28:15):
uh, is it just like a hey, is it the old better?
To reward than punish.

Don (28:24):
But why does Santa Claus?
Where did Santa Claus even comefrom?

Ron (28:29):
Oh heaven.

Don (28:30):
Yeah, Is he a sort of?

Ron (28:31):
did Santa Claus used to come?

Don (28:32):
from heaven.

Ron (28:34):
Is he a righteous angel?
If Krampus is from hell, Idon't really know.
No Well, he's Saint Nick, right.
He was't really know.

Don (28:40):
No well, he's saint nick, right we, he was once an angel,
now he's a chubby guy yeah,that's it saint nicholas is
right, he actually was a guylike a real man.
A real man.
Yeah, there was a real saintnicholas, um that, uh, that
lives in the fourth century, ishe?

Ron (28:57):
also german no turkish oh sick, yeah.

Don (29:01):
born in the city century.
Is he also German?
No, turkish.
Oh, sick yeah.
Born in the city of Myra, whichis in Turkey today and became a
bishop and died.

Ron (29:12):
Never gave a gift once in his life.

Doug (29:13):
It was good to have him Hated by all.

Don (29:17):
The stories about him, though, actually is where some
of our traditions come from.
So let me tell you one of themost famous stories of St
Nicholas' life and again, thisis the first documented version
of the story comes from the 800s, and St Nicholas died sometime
in the 330s.
So we've got a little bit of agap between death and these
stories.
We've got a little bit of a gapbetween death and these these

(29:38):
stories, but one of them has todo with a father who had three
daughters and was was lamentingthe fact that, because of the
local traditions in Myra, turkeyat that time, daughters could
only be married if they had adowry.
And he didn't have any money tohave a dowry for his daughters
and apparently the only otheroption was to sell them into
slavery or prostitution.

(29:59):
So the way the story story goes.
So he's very sad because hisdaughters are going to be
prostitutes, and uh, and hewakes up one morning and there's
a sack of gold in his housemagic.
Yeah, this is also theconvergence of the leprechaun
origin no, because the goldarrived, because saint nicholas
uh rounded it up and then,depending upon the version of

(30:21):
the story, he either threw itover the wall into the house or,
in some versions of the story,he dropped it down the chimney
and in some versions of thestory, it landed in a shoe, or
in some versions of the story,it landed in a sock that was
hanging by the fire to dry um soit's like batman begins so, uh,

(30:44):
so a few nights later, anothersoccer goal showed up, so he had
a dowry for his second daughterand, uh, the old man.
And so again, like, did you guyshave this experience?
So on the third night, the guy,the old man or the father,
decides he's going to wait upand and see if he can catch who
is delivering this, these gifts,and St Nicholas, or not St

(31:05):
Nicholas Nicholas at that time?

Ron (31:07):
regular Nick.

Don (31:08):
Bishop Nicholas drops the the gold in the chimney and the
father runs out and catches himand shoots him.

Ron (31:18):
What are you doing on my property?

Don (31:22):
Nicholas makes him promise not to, uh, not to, reveal his
identity.
So it's, it says sort of theorigin of that secret identity
of the gift giver of remaininganonymous as a gift giver, um
delivering the gifts through thechimney or or dropping them in
a shoe, or things like that.
Um, so a lot of the thetraditions that we associate
with Christmas are coming fromthis story of St Nicholas.

Doug (31:45):
Yeah.

Don (31:45):
Yeah, and so because it starts with three sacks of gold.
One of the images that becomesassociated with St Nicholas as
people start to revere him isthree gold orbs.
So that's actually where orangeis at Christmas.
So you, sometimes you getorange in your stocking.

Doug (32:03):
Yeah.

Don (32:03):
Yeah, it's because of that, uh, that three gold orbs that
are associated with Nicholas,which represent the three sacks
of gold that he um delivered to.

Ron (32:11):
So, yeah.
And so when does St Nicholaslike, become like, when did?
When does it spread?
When does it leave?
Turkey, perfect 1087.
I'll tell you the exact date.

Don (32:26):
Yeah, because in Turkey, the, the Muslim empire, starts
to expand, and so what was aChristian area where, where
Nicholas was the Bishop, startsto to be overrun with with the
Muslim empire, and so theyactually transport Nicholas's
remains from Turkey to Bari,italy, and that's actually where

(32:48):
they remain today.
And so, because of that, that'swhere the story starts to
spread further north, because,as far as we can tell, sailors
either involved in thattransport or Spanish sailors who
worked out of the port of Baristarted to spread that story
across Europe, and so thestories of Nicholas being a

(33:10):
protector of children, ofNicholas being a gift giver,
that started to spread andbecame associated with his feast
day, which is December 6th.

Ron (33:18):
Okay, so all these sailors are like, hey, whose bones we
got in here?
And they're like, actuallythey're the bones of a very
generous guy, exactly.

Don (33:27):
And so the gift-giving traditions started on December
6th, so you would exchange giftswith your family, and St
Nicholas would visit you onDecember 6th to reward you for
your good behavior throughoutthe year, so he was like a ghost
a ghost, but just a spirit.
Yeah, yeah, Right, so um and soeventually.

Ron (33:51):
Obviously, this proliferates across Europe.

Don (33:53):
It does and at some point.

Ron (33:54):
Someone's like he needs a villain.

Don (33:56):
Well the thing is is what's interesting about Krampus is
like looking at those images um,he looks like a villain but
he's he's actually a companion,right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
And so Nicholas turns into thegift giver, the rewarder of good
behavior, and Krampus is the,the punisher for bad behavior.

Ron (34:16):
So they they're a team.
They are.

Don (34:18):
They're the yin and the yang you can't have one without
the other, right Right, right sodid you find your demon?

Doug (34:25):
It was Baphomet.

Ron (34:26):
Yeah.

Don (34:26):
Yeah, yeah, baphomet was the guy.

Doug (34:28):
It doesn't look like, from what I'm seeing, there's any
connection.
So yeah, that's it.

Don (34:33):
Hmm, so the spread of the cult of Nicholas right, we think
, is because of the sailorsleaving Italy and then spreading
further north.
Actually, there's some I don'tknow if it's archaeological,
it's anthropological evidence ofthat.
So in the Netherlands, do youknow where St Nicholas arrives

(34:56):
from each Christmas with yourexotic gifts?

Doug (34:58):
Antarctica.

Ron (34:59):
No, the other one, it's a complete opposite the art stick
funny the north the north poleis where santa claus comes from
yeah

Don (35:07):
yeah, in the netherlands, he comes from spain oh, that's
sick closer to what he's been,he's been um.
Uh, he's been vacationing thereyeah, or he's working on his
tan is spain just so exotic tothe netherland the netherlandese
mind it was.
It's the second.
So, uh, it is exotic, it has.

(35:29):
It's part of the the traderoutes that that the netherlands
were involved in.
So, uh, you could get a lot ofproduce from africa and produce
from from the Southern part ofof Europe, and, uh, and they
came that way, which is why inthe Netherlands, they came up
with a different companion forSt Nicholas that also had a
similar role, not quite as scaryas Krampus, cause he doesn't

(35:51):
have the, the horns and thescary face, but, um, that you
guys know about, zwarte Pieter.

Ron (35:56):
Yeah, zwarte peter, yeah, black peter.
Yeah, is that just because,like they found black?

Don (36:04):
people in spain like, because that was that europe's
introduction.
The moors in invaded spain.
Ah yeah, and so um, so yeah,there's.
And the dutch were alsoinvolved, because of where the
timing of when um zwarte peteruh uh is invented is in the
1800s or ands, and the Dutch areinvolved in the slave trade to
the North America continent.

(36:26):
So the idea of servitude, theidea of the subjugation of the
Moors coming from Spain, thoseall so Black Peter is a servant
of St Nicholas, but the sameidea that he's there to punish
the misbehaviors, but in alittle bit more of a Loki type
jokester figure.

(36:47):
There's a tremendous amount oflike psychosocial something
going on there right For sure,and they've struggled with it
actually because of theiconography and the
representation and the racialissues that are involved there.
So there's Black Peterapologists that say, oh no, he's
not.
It's not a racial blackness,he's just sooty because he has
to crawl down the chimneys.

(37:07):
So they've started to changethe way that he's presented in
public.
So it's not a full black face,it's people just smearing ash on
themselves, things like that tolook dirty as opposed to look
like a racial difference.

Ron (37:24):
Definitely less problematic to go with the hell demon who
takes kids.
Like honestly you can't touchthat.
There's nothing to have tochange.

Don (37:33):
The one thing I think is interesting about the Black
Peter story is there's a, acompanion story in france.
Uh.
So in france, uh, the characteris named per frotar and uh,
which means father whipper, alsopresented with the dirty face,

(37:54):
but, um, not again.
It does coincide more with thatsecond idea that the of it
being a laborer, a lower classservant of St Nicholas.
But his origin story is kind ofinteresting too.
Would you like to hear that oneOf course.
So it also goes back to amiracle that's attributed to St
Nicholas during his lifetime, soback in the 400s.

(38:15):
Apparently, there was either abutcher or an inn innkeeper two
different versions of the storywho decided to kidnap three boys
um, and again differentversions of the story either was
going to rob them and and woundup murdering them, or was going
to sell them for pork and woundup murdering them.

Doug (38:36):
Nothing, boys make for great pork boy bacon, the other
other white meat um well, youknow, uh, jonathan swift would
disagree.

Don (38:47):
But um.
He says the boy meat is bad butuh, according to the story, the
uh the butcher actually put themin pickle, like pickled them in
a barrel, and uh and saintnicholas found out about this
and uh and came to shake hisfigure and uh, miraculously
resurrected the boys.
So the boys that had beenmurdered, peril and uh and St
Nicholas found out about thisand uh and came to shake his
figure and uh, miraculouslyresurrected the boys.
So the boys that had beenmurdered, uh, st Nicholas
brought back to life.
And so in France this uh, um,the, the character of um pair

(39:12):
frotter is uh, is that innkeeperor that butcher?
So part of his penance forhaving murder uh the boys, is
that he now is the companion tosaint nicholas, uh and uh and he
collects or or threatens the uhthe misbehaviors so there's
like a lot of complex justicelike, or ideas of justice sort

(39:35):
of tied into the origins of manyof these kinds of traditions,
right and and all these of these.

Ron (39:40):
this isn't just Alpine Germany now.
It's like lots of these peoplehave, like you got your St
Nicholas and then you've alsogot the guy who does the dirty
work or represents the opposite,the stick versus the carrot
kind of approach, right?

Don (39:53):
Well, and what's interesting is, the further west
you move, the lighter it getsright.
So, krampus is pretty, al,alpine, right swiss, uh, alps,
the, uh, the northern germany,that part, and then as you move
to the netherlands it justbecomes uh, you know somebody,
who's, who's a portuguese kid.

Ron (40:11):
Yeah, it's gonna play a trick on you.

Don (40:13):
and the same thing when you get to france, like it's just
like, yes, you should notmisbehave, but like the worst
that will happen to you is youget hit with a stick right Um,
as opposed to being drugged tohell and and served as hors
d'oeuvres.

Ron (40:24):
When does coal show up?
Is that a?
Is that like an industrialrevolution?
English?
Thing.

Don (40:28):
Uh, no, actually.
Uh, it's part of the uh the umpair frotter uh brings brings
the coal oh yeah, yeah, um,there's another creature in the
Alpine regions that is a littlebit more serious.
So, so, if we can keep thisspectrum, I.

(40:51):
So the further East we go, themore serious the consequences
seem to be.
In the further West we go, theless serious they seem to be.
So let me introduce you to FrauPerchta.
Have you heard of Frau Perchta?
No, so, frau Perchta is a is awitch.
No, so Frau Perchta is a is awitch.
Yeah, and a winter witch.
A winter witch who, uh, whovisits uh houses, and if you are
industrious and andwell-behaved, she will leave you
small gifts like coins, thingslike that, and uh, and if you

(41:15):
have not finished your spinningfor the year if your house is
not kept up or your house is notcleaned.
Uh, she will wait until you'reasleep and then slit your belly
open and remove your internalorgans and fill you with straw.

Doug (41:28):
Can we go back to krampus so that's worse than being
dragged to hell and then servedas hors d'oeuvres.
I'm not not sure, I mean, it'sdefinitely more graphic.
I can at least tell you that.

Ron (41:42):
I want to see like the five-year-old kid who, like,
takes the sheets off hisbrother's bed and finds him
stuffed with straw there.
It's like the godfather.

Doug (41:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like how far east are wetalking?
Where is it central toSwitzerland?

Don (41:56):
Switzerland and same Germany in switzerland,
switzerland and and same germanythere's an overlap in in the
crampus legend there.
So okay, yeah, yeah so.
But my question is why?
Why are we more?
Why are the consequences somuch more serious for
misbehavior the further east wego and less serious as we go
further west?
So it's kind of a geographyquestion if, if you oh,

(42:19):
something about the Danube river.

Doug (42:25):
Um, okay, so.

Ron (42:29):
Easter gets more mountainous right, like like you
know, that's not the lowlands,and and and that's it.

Don (42:34):
France is nice and pleasant , and so unpleasant places.

Ron (42:37):
So what's it like in the wintertime?
Oh, lots of snowboarding.

Doug (42:41):
Yeah, Brutal brother Tourism, absolutely yeah, bad,
bad, right Right.

Don (42:46):
Harsh, yeah, and so life in the Alpine regions in the
wintertime is a very precariousbalance of food that you've
already stored because you can'tgrow anymore and there's
nothing really to hunt becauseall the animals are hibernating
or have moved.
There's a little bit, but it'slike, basically, you're just
waiting out the season until itthaws.

(43:09):
So, as a community, if we aregoing to make it through this
together, we have a set of normsthat we have to sort of succeed
in establishing.
And if one of succeed inestablishing and if one of us
breaks those norms, one of useats too much food, what's going
to happen to the wholecommunity?
We're all going to die, we'regoing to ruin it yeah so, so,

(43:31):
krampus, okay.

Ron (43:32):
So we need people to follow these rules right, and because
we can't trust them to do it, uh, innately, because people are
dumb and selfish beasts, so weneed to threaten them with a
creature of dark imaginationthat's colder and more vicious
and so are we saying that atsome point?

(43:52):
this then um morphs into likestories for children in order to
instill at them in a very earlyage.
Like yo, there are ways youhave to act if you're going to
be a functioning member of thissociety, of this in group Right
and uh, otherwise you go to hell.

Don (44:08):
Right and and that start starts to happen in the 1700s.
So it's when we get farther awayfrom the medieval period where
life is not so precariouslybalanced between like we're
going to make it, we're notgoing to make it, um and uh uh,
but now we still have thesenorms of behavior that we want

(44:29):
to to teach our children and andto maintain.
So the threat of cramp is thethreat of Frau Perchta.
Um, it just shifts from adultsto children.
The Frau Perchta that, likethey would literally have.
So she's supposed to visithouses during the 12 days of
Christmas, so between Christmasday and Epiphany on January 6th,
and they would like haveprocessions.
Like they would have womendress up with scary masks on and

(44:49):
they would come to your houseand they would examine your
spinning and they would examineyour house to see if it was
clean and if it was not, theywould put a big old smear on
your door of ashes.
So that way everybody knew thatyou were the house.
That was not uh, not followingthe norms.

Ron (45:05):
It's like shame is a key component to hold on to your
bellies.

Doug (45:10):
Yeah, that's right yeah, so yeah, it's funny, just con,
uh, the contrast of like sunnycalifornia and the worst thing
that can happen is like it'sless presence and one of them's
cold.

Ron (45:21):
Right here we are ripping people open and stuffing them
with straw, so it seems like itshifted again Right Like, at
some point, these traditions,sort of like they're no longer
contained by geography, right,they travel, they get dispersed
and they wind up in America,right Like, and I I'm wondering,
like, do they still serve thesame role?

(45:43):
Are we still trying to instillvalues in children through our
use of of Santa Claus?
uh in the in the original Germanright Uh or uh like.
Are we trying to like?
Are those the same values we'reinstilling them, or have those
changed Right Like what what?
What does Santa Claus teachkids today?

Doug (46:03):
Well, certainly not the unbelievably negative side of
you ate too much fruit and we'regoing to cut you open with the
counter to that.
So I mean, I think it's back tothe beginning again, right Of
being good in general.
I think it's just been moregeneralized and now it's just
whatever the parent decides interms of behavior.

(46:23):
Um, that's, that's kind of whatthey're enforcing is like
you've been a good little boy orlittle girl, so you will get
the gifts that you want.
I think it's been distilled, itseems.

Don (46:33):
So but but our community like I think the point you're
getting to run is ourcommunities still have this need
to maintain some, some type ofsocial norm, like we have to
agree on a contract of how weget along with each other.
And wouldn't it be moreeffective if, instead of this
lump of coal that nevermaterializes because, right, if
the threat was, you're going toget dragged?

Ron (46:53):
to hell.
Yes, that's what I want tobring back the fear of an early,
immortal torment.

Don (47:02):
Merry Christmas.

Ron (47:03):
I don't, I don't think, I don't think the Santa Claus
thing does instill.

Doug (47:07):
No.

Ron (47:08):
Like good behavior anymore, Like I said, like I don't even
think as a kid, like yeah, wewere supposed to be good, but I
think it was just because, like,maybe I will get a less cool
gift, but it was never like and,to be fair, like I don't think
I was like a very I don't thinkfrequently is like oh, I'm about
to do a bad thing, but wait aminute.
Let's remember Santa Claus.
I shouldn't do that bad thingbecause I want to be.

(47:30):
I don't think it like had thatmuch control over my decision
making as a kid and I don't knowif it does anymore anymore.
But I do think there'ssomething to the.
The elf on the shelf.

Don (47:40):
There's a key in the elf on the shelf.
There you go he's the new.

Ron (47:43):
There's like he's uh, he's the surveillance state, like
isn't that kind of what we're?
There's like there's stillsomething being communicated to
kids, but I don't know if it'slike be good, I mean, on face
value it is, but I don't know ifthat's kids.
What, what kids actually learnfrom it.

Don (48:00):
Do you know how far back Elf on a Shelf goes?

Ron (48:02):
Not when I was a kid.
It sounds to me like eightyears or something 2005.

Don (48:07):
Okay, okay, that's close, almost 19 years, yeah, so yeah,
what was that?

Ron (48:12):
The first YouTube video of an Elf on a Shelf.

Don (48:16):
It's a children's book that was self-published in 2005.

Ron (48:18):
With the intention of like hey, parents, this is a trick,
or is it just like a fun storythat some wacko was like, oh,
and I'm going to bring this intoreality?

Don (48:31):
The story that I know is that it was a children's book to
tell a story about theirfamily's tradition about the elf
, and then it turned into thiscommercial success.
It just became the runaway hit.
And then it turned into thiscommercial success that just
became the runaway hit, but allright.
So we agree, though, that wehave to have some type of reward
system and threat system toinstill our children with these

(48:52):
values that we want to.

Ron (48:54):
No, I disagree, you disagree, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
.
Because here's the, here's theOK.
Sure, it's fun as a kid, let'ssay it works right, oh, being
good.
But then you've always got theturn right, uh, which is you're
eight, nine, twenty five and yourealize there is no santa,
there is no krampus.
Yeah, there is no.
Like the, the punishments andthe reward systems are all fake.

(49:15):
What is like?
Isn't that going to dismantlethat, that idea?
Or are we saying we've been soindoctrinated?
Those values have beeninstilled in us they now survive
the realization that, uh, thisstory is a fantasy but then why
do we still have them?

Don (49:32):
like they must be working or else like they would have
died off right, these are.
These are thousand year oldtraditions.

Ron (49:37):
I'm gonna say coca-cola, that polar bears out there?
Yeah, because I think, likethese traditions fulfill a
different.
These are thousand year oldtraditions.

Doug (49:41):
I'm going to say Coca-Cola that polar bears out there.

Ron (49:43):
Cause I think, like these traditions fulfill a different
role, at least in America today.
Right, like I think Christmasis like such a big holiday
because, like we don't have thatmany big cultural shared
holidays Right, there aren'tthat many that we can kind of
all like get together and say,like the time of year is
different.
Right, like most of ourholidays are single days.

(50:03):
They don't really change theway we interact with each other.
They don't, like, you know, wedon't get to change the decor in
our houses for fourth of july,you know, or something like.
And so I think some people do.
I suppose so, I suppose so butlike is fourth of of July, like
a month long celebration.

Don (50:20):
No, and there's not like a, a, a manner to behave around
the 4th of July.
Like you're supposed to be, youknow wintertime is supposed to
be about goodwill and aboutright.

Doug (50:29):
Yeah, and family and coming together and all this
season the holidays, yeah, youknow like.
So yeah, it is kind of.

Ron (50:37):
Starting from Halloween until New Year's Eve, it's like
an exciting and different timeof year, unless you're
Disneyland, then it's Augustthrough February.

Doug (50:45):
Absolutely.

Ron (50:47):
Absolutely so I think I don't know.
I feel like Santa and thattradition is just sort of become
a sort of like well, that'swhat you do on Christmas Santa,
whether or not you intend to useit to instruct your children.
There's like I'm thinking that,like when I sort of found out
Santa wasn't real and then, likemy parents brought me in to

(51:08):
like the Santa club, like okay,so I'm the oldest of six and so
I was like the first one, andthey're like okay, but now you
get to be a part of the continue, you get to make this holiday
magical for your siblings.
You're part of the conspiracy.
Yes, yes, yeah, exactly.
So then I would help assemblegifts and I would wrap them and
I would, you know, bite thecookie on the shelf.
They were just using you forlabor, but it is fun to see kids

(51:32):
, you know, think the world is alittle bit more magical than it
is right.
Yep, I want to say there's likea kind of benefit in that
whether it's I don't know ifit's just like parental
selfishness that like, look, Imanaged to do something nice for
my children, right, which isn'tselfish, but I mean like um
would have a sort of like ummotivation to make them feel

(51:56):
good, Right, but the punishmentpart seems gone, like I don't, I
can't, I did.
Did you know anyone whoreceived?

Doug (52:07):
coal for Christmas, or who got totally shafted by Santa.
I did know one, but the parentswere particularly brutal.

Don (52:12):
Okay, yeah, um but that was it.
That was it?
Um, no, generally, no, no, Ididn't either.
Well, there actually is a uh, aplace where, um, it does still
happen, like the, the punishmentif you go to bavaria and you go
to austria, you could, they,they still on.

(52:33):
So it's december 5th, is thestart of the christmas season.
That the event that we'retalking about is called uh,
kramp, krampus Nacht, uh and uh,and that's what those photos
are from.
So, uh, there there are bigprocessions of Krampus through
the uh, the town, and they carrytheir birch sticks and and
chains and other weapons and uhand threaten children and yay,
it's Christmas, um of that.

(53:02):
Yeah, and speaking of the uhyou're talking about, nobody
gets punished like they do, likeuh, in those events, like they,
they beat people in the in theaudience with their sticks now
I'm starting to think this ismore about exercising some sort
of societal frustration towardschildren.
This is for the adults there'sactually places where uh, as you
, if you want to be a spectatorfor the event, you, uh, you, you

(53:22):
buy um wristbands and you canget different wristbands for
different levels of engagementwith the krampus a no boo, so
kind of like a yeah, like a noboo at at non-scary farm so you
can have the.
You know the krampus will lookat you and that's that's it.
And all the way up to they willbeat you with stakes I want the
wristband that drags me to hell.

(53:44):
Give me the full thing Show meBaphomet so the other thing that
you mentioned earlier about theiconography, the way that
Krampus looks, and one thingthat is a little bit confusing
is he does look pagan in origin.

Ron (54:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don (54:03):
And it's been postulated that maybe he's a hangover from
some pre-Christian paganism orNorse traditions or things like
that, and that comes from ourgood friends Jakob and Wilhelm
Grimm.

Doug (54:19):
Oh, yeah, they're brothers , aren't they?

Don (54:22):
They are, and uh they, part of this movement called uh uh,
romantic nationalism, uh,wanting to preserve the true
German folklore right.
So that's why they, uh, that'swhy they, they created their, um
, their collection of folktalesright.
As part of the tradition tomaintain the traditions of of

(54:43):
Germany, um, and they looked atthe traditions of Krampus and
they said, well, look at him, ofcourse he's pagan and that,
like that's all the foundationthat it took Um.
So for about a hundred yearsthere was this theory that, uh,
that that Krampus is is relatedto Norse traditions and Odin and
the wild hunt and things likethat, that Odin would lead a

(55:04):
wild hunt in the winter acrossthe skies of the ghost animals.
But in the 20th century they'vegone back and they looked at
those records and the dates thatI gave you are the first
recorded mentions of Krampus, so1300s.

Ron (55:22):
Yeah.

Don (55:23):
So, uh, so it's clearly within the medieval Christian
church that these traditions aredeveloping and now they're
being maintained.
So that's my, my question.
Like you're, you're talkingabout Santa and we maintain the
Santa traditions here in theUnited States and they're
different than the St Nicholastraditions, and there's reasons
for all that, which we can talkabout some other day.

(55:44):
But my question is why are westill maintaining the Krampus
scary Halloween Christmas inBavaria?

Ron (55:54):
Yeah, like you said, there probably is.

(56:15):
I'm sure for many of thosecommunities there is a facet of
national identity or localidentity tied up to those right,
like in an increasinglyglobalized world, right it like
sort of semi-local traditionsyou know, like growing up at
your school, in your community,in your town.
That you're like this is whatseparates me from other people.
These are the things we did,kind of like we were talking at
the beginning.
These are the traditions we hadon Christmas, right, and a lot

(56:37):
of those are shared right, so Ican.
The traditions we had onchristmas, right, and a lot of
those are shared right, so I canjust see these places being
like.
This is what we do.
We do krampus, things likewhether or not it fulfills the
original purpose of the of thatum folk tale doesn't mean we
don't want to do it.

Don (56:51):
It's fun, right, you're in bavaria we still eat our kids
put them in a barrel and ticklethem yeah and I wish like.
So I think it it for me.
It tells me two things.
It well, it tells me one thingand leads to another conclusion.
So the one thing it tells me isthat, for the most part, humans

(57:12):
will be good under threat yeah,yeah, 100 right right like like
the.
The motivation to do good forgood's sake is not our strong
suit.

Ron (57:25):
I don't know if that's true entirely.
I think it's that living in asociety is more complex than it
seems right.
So, like I think, most peopledon't actively seek to do harm
to other people in theircommunity or are so selfish that
they would lead to societalcollapse or something like that.

(57:46):
But you do have to put certaininstincts aside in order to
function really well, and it'sespecially a precarious society
like an Alpine German societyduring the wintertime.

Don (57:58):
Right.

Ron (57:59):
And so, yeah, threats do seem to work.
We've talked about this withthe justice thing, right?
Right like, does prison work?
Right and whether or not itworks.
There seems to be a strongperception that it does right
and I think well.

Don (58:13):
so threat of like being drugged to hell or being slid
open and filled with straw, likethose are kind of extreme.
But I think that that in mylifetime anyways, there was,
there was a belief that therewere certain societal lines that
public figures, for example,could not cross.
Like you couldn't, you know youcouldn't have have had an

(58:34):
affair and be president.
You couldn't drive a tank Right,and you can't you couldn't say
certain things to your neighborsor say certain things about
other people, like whether ornot you thought them like there
was still a, an expected publicdecorum that I feel like was
sort of under threat.
Like if you did that, likethere was a, there was a, it was

(58:56):
a violation of the social norm,and I feel like we've kind of
we've moved away from that ideathat we have social norms that
have to be maintained.

Ron (59:04):
Or the social norms are in flux, right, they're in
conversation again, like whatare the norms that are important
and which are the ones that arenot or should be?

Don (59:13):
I hope so.
I feel like they're not inconversation.

Ron (59:16):
I feel like it's evaporating, but I wish that
they would come back yeah so, uh, so we need a krampus to come
and threaten people to behave soyou do think that's what's
happening in bavaria, like thesecommunities are maintaining a
certain level of social norm, asrepresented or symbol uh,
symbolized by the existence, thecontinued existence of the
krampus and not because I Ithink that that the they're

(59:38):
wandering around the streetssaying, oh, I better behave or
else, you know, this demonfigure will come and eat me.

Don (59:43):
But it's just, it's a reminder that, hey, there is a
social contract that we all mustmaintain in order to have a
society that functions.
It's an embodiment of thatcontract and, yeah, it's a scary
one, but at least it is onethat exists scary one, but at
least it is one that exists.

Doug (01:00:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that I think that's a very
I agree succinct idea all right.

Ron (01:00:04):
Yeah, that's how we need a an american krampus absolutely
all right, we'll work on thatnext uh, yeah, maybe I'm sure
wall street can cook upsomething.

Doug (01:00:16):
I mean it was enough for me feigning ignorance about
Antarctica and the BrothersGrimstead to get.

Ron (01:00:21):
Ron, side-eye, don't you dare confuse the poles.

Don (01:00:28):
Well, I thank you guys for a good conversation today.
I wish you the best of luck aswe enter the Christmas season.
That Krampus and Frau Perchtastay away from your houses.

Ron (01:00:40):
Yeah, be safe out there everyone.

Doug (01:00:42):
Merry Christmas Maybe.
Thank you,