January 21, 2025 • 59 mins
What if the very fabric of science fiction awards was shaken by an unexpected hero? Join us as we celebrate Doug’s temporary exit for fatherhood bliss and dive into the world of books that capture our imaginations. Don reveals his eclectic reading list for 2024, featuring tales of historical intrigue and epic sagas, while Ron reflects on his sporadic reading adventures, from Tolkien's legendary universe to Tuchman's historical narratives. Our conversation is a heartfelt exploration of the profound joy and escapades that literature offers.<br><br>As we wander through the captivating corridors of the 2017 Worldcon in Helsinki, we turn our gaze to the Hugo Awards' tumultuous years. What caused the eruption of controversy and chaos? We unravel the saga of the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies, groups who sought to steer the course of the awards, inadvertently thrusting Chuck Tingle’s satirical works into the spotlight. Through humor and clever twists, we discuss how Tingle became a beacon of inclusivity, challenging alt-right agendas with his unique brand of storytelling.
In the final act, we examine the broader societal impacts of privilege and representation within the sci-fi community. From Gamergate to the rise of diverse voices like NK Jemisin, we celebrate the triumphs over attempts to silence inclusivity. Chuck Tingle's unexpected role in this cultural narrative serves as a testament to the genre's potential for advocating real love and diversity. This episode is a tribute to the evolving landscape of science fiction—a platform for exploring civil rights and fostering cultural diversity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ron (00:14):
Thank you, hello and welcome back sibilant revelers
to the uncannery.
(00:35):
It is I, ron, returned from thedeath of the old year and
sitting across from me is I'mdone and oh, there is no Doug.
Don (00:50):
Guys, I'm sorry, we have bad news, we have very bad news.
Ron (00:53):
So Doug's a father.
Doug and his lovely wifeintroduced or brought a new life
into the world over the holidayseason and because of this he
will be rightfully and earnedlyspending time with his new kid
(01:18):
and we wish him a speedyrecovery.
We hope his kid is 18.
As soon as possible so that wecan get him back into our life.
But many happy congratulationsto them.
And so that means you guys gota Don and Ron duo today.
You're stuck with us.
Yeah, you're stuck with us.
(01:39):
I know we've been reading a lotin your mail and we know that
we are your two least favoritehosts, and then we don't spend
enough time talking aboutwrestling.
So really this is a dream forus, because we don't have to
talk about wrestling, or Mahjongor whatever.
(02:00):
Thank you all for joining us.
I know we took a break therefor the holidays, but, hey,
everyone deserves a break on theholidays.
Since it's the new year, don, Iwas thinking you know this is a
great time to reflect and lookback.
And you know, you and I, we'reboth cultured men, right.
Don (02:14):
Allegedly yeah, yeah.
Ron (02:16):
You know, my very expansive definition of cultured applies
to us.
And do you read any good books?
I've been thinking like, uh, Idon't, I don't read as much as I
used to, um, but I, I imagineyou read more than I do.
What?
Was what was 2024, like inbooks for you I wouldn't want.
Don (02:33):
I wouldn't want it to be a horse race like that.
Um it uh it comes in.
It comes in spurts, and 2024was was less of a more of a
dribble than a spurt.
Ron (02:44):
That's okay, that's fine.
Don (02:46):
There are ways to fix that.
I did read a book called theWives of Henry VIII.
I was doing some traveling overthe summer and visiting some of
those locations, so so I wantedto to get a little bit more in
depth there.
That's not super interestingthough.
I mean it's just history.
I mean it was a good book, butit's just history.
Ron (03:02):
There's something about traveling and like reading a
thing that sort of enhances yourexperience, right Like oh, this
is, it provides context for thelocation your locations you're
moving through.
That's pretty cool yeah.
Don (03:17):
Would you recommend it to people interested?
In the time it was a goodversion of the Henry VIII story,
so yeah, if that's what you'reinterested in, that would be one
that I recommend for sure.
Ron (03:26):
um, I read song of solomon um, I know this title, but I
can't think for the life of mewhat that book's about right now
.
Don (03:34):
Uh tony marson.
So it's right, okay, yeah, umit.
Uh, I read it for uh to helpout uh a friend.
Um, I also finished the uh thelast kingdom series by.
Okay, yeah, it's utry bernard,uh, cornwall, yeah, utrid okay,
(03:55):
we've seen son of utrid.
Ron (03:56):
We've seen the series and utrid is a.
He's a.
He's a big man in our house.
Yeah, but I've not read themyet.
Don (04:01):
Yeah so that's, that was my .
That was my, that was my 2024.
That that's it.
It wasn't.
It wasn't a a year full of ofliterary wealth.
Oh, I also read um.
Oh, this one's kind of fun.
Uh, the Windsor knot.
Ron (04:17):
Oh, so now you can tie a really sick knot.
Don (04:21):
So it's a, it's a Windsor, it's a, it's a murder mystery,
like a a negative, Christiestyle murder mystery kind of.
Ron (04:27):
But a queen Elizabeth the second involves herself in the,
the, the detective assault.
Don (04:32):
She, she is, she, she involves herself in the solution
, and it's a series.
There's two more books in my,in my, my nook library the
double Winds are ready to gothat I haven't quite gotten to
yet, but uh, but that was funtoo.
So kind of an eclectic set ofuh of reading.
Ron (04:49):
Yeah, that's pretty good.
I think that's a pretty stronglist, so I don't know if I like
finished a single book, maybeone, over the year.
My reading habit now has becomemore like read part of a thing
and then put it back on theshelf and start a new thing, and
then, hopefully return to thatfirst thing within three years.
Yeah, tasting platter yeah, kindof like.
Uh, oh, this has sated myinterest in the topic now and if
(05:14):
I, I mean, yeah, I'm eithergonna like not read anything if
I force myself to finish it or Icould just pick up a new thing
I'm interested in.
But, um, I think the mostrecent thing, I finished the
silmarillion by JRR Tolkien,which is something I've read
many times before, but it's justsort of a.
It's a fun holiday.
Around the holidays I get intolike a Tolkien mood and I'll
(05:35):
pick up the Hobbit or somethingand just sort of leave through
that.
I was reading Barbara Tuckman'sA Distant Mirror.
Have you read this one?
I feel like this is so up youralley I have not, it's like a.
It's a history of um, mirrors,not mirrors.
Uh, it's the.
I want to say the 15th century.
Uh, when?
(05:56):
When was the black plague?
14th, okay, four, okay, so it'sa.
It's a.
It's a history like the 14thcentury, um, from like the
Plague through to the HundredYears War and kind of focusing
on like one particular dude.
So fun medieval history stuff.
Don (06:09):
Was that dude's name Henry?
Ron (06:11):
No, his name is De Chautzy.
It's French man, I don't know.
He's like something.
De Chautzy is his family name.
He's just involved in a lot ofthe historical events and he's
kind of fun.
Yeah, bob De Chautzy familyname.
And um, he's just involved in alot of the historical events
and he's kind of fun.
Yeah, bob de chousey.
And.
And then I read like a historyof the mexican revolution.
It was a history year for me, Iguess.
(06:32):
Really, I think the only novelI finished was um, uh, under the
volcano.
Um, malcolm lowry.
Uh, it's just about a guyliving out in.
Uh.
Uh, it's about.
It's about a drunk Englishmanliving in Mexico.
Uh, in the 1930s.
Uh, which is you know a lot ofHemingway.
Yes, exactly A lot ofliterature of that time period.
(06:53):
Um, hey, um.
But you know I was wondering ifyou'd ever.
You know you're a well-read guy.
You, I'd say you probably haveyour thumb on most of the
classics, right, or you know?
Don (07:09):
an essential portion of them, would you say.
I would say a portion of them.
Yeah, there's a.
There's so many it's hard toreally sample them all.
Ron (07:14):
Of course, of course.
But you, uh, you ever read ummy billionaire triceratops?
Craves, gay ass.
Don (07:21):
I haven't.
No, that's a, that's a newtitle, that's weird.
Ron (07:24):
That one's pretty.
I feel like that one's beenpretty influential.
Huh, oh, what about I'm gayfrom my living billionaire jet
plane?
Don (07:33):
Nope, I haven't, I'm not, you know, I can't even, I can't
even.
That doesn't sound familiar tome.
Is that Dickens?
Ron (07:40):
No, it's a lot more recent than Dickens.
These are stories by a mannamed Chuck Tingle.
You ever heard of Chuck Tingle?
I'm not Chuck Tingle, Dearlistener, if you've ever heard
of Chuck Tingle then youprobably know where this
episode's going.
Don (08:00):
But I want to talk about an American author named Chuck
Tingle today who, in 2016, foundhimself kind of embroiled in a
scandal, himself kind ofembroiled in a scandal.
Should we suggest to anyonelistening that might have young
ears nearby that today's topicmight be one to skip through
today?
Ron (08:15):
There will be some.
Don (08:16):
Nothing explicit.
Ron (08:17):
No explicit language or intentionally crude language,
but we are talking about a, anauthor who specializes in uh,
gay, erotic fiction, and so, um,probably should have said that
before I said triceratops cravesgay ass, maybe we could go back
and we could edit that into thevery beginning of the show just
(08:38):
pretend that we did, it'd befine.
But yeah, if you think, uh,this might not be a perfect
topic for some ears in the roomthen yeah, maybe return to this
one late at night when you'realone in your room.
Uh, I want to talk about in 2016, don.
You're probably familiar withthe, the hugo awards.
(08:58):
You ever heard of the?
Don (08:58):
hugo awards.
That sounds familiar, but uh,but remind me which, which or
which, what are they awardingthe?
Ron (09:05):
hugo awards are a?
Um, probably, I think they'reconsidered the most prestigious
uh award show or ceremony forscience fiction and fantasy
literature.
Oh, okay, predominant, likescience fiction and fantasy
media.
You know, they'll give awardsto films.
They'll give awards to films,they'll give awards to comics
and journals and things likethat, but it's most famous, uh,
for novels, uh, and literature.
(09:28):
Um, ever since 1953, the Hugoawards have been going on.
They go uh every year andthey're always presented at
world con, which is a kind ofscience fiction and fantasy
convention that travels theworld.
Um, in 2017, I actually went toWorldcon, don.
Don (09:43):
What?
Yeah, you won't believe where Iwas hosted.
Ron (09:45):
Were you nominated?
I was not nominated.
I was a hanger-on.
I was riding the tailcoats ofmy wife, who was invited by
Worldcon to give a presentationbased on a paper she'd written
in grad school, and so we went.
We went to Helsinki, finland.
I was going to guess the.
Don (10:04):
Space Needle but.
Ron (10:07):
They should have a Space Needle in Helsinki.
You ever wanted to go toFinland, Don.
Um you can be honest, Not, notwith a strong desire, no Well
let me tell you uh, you're right, you don't have to go.
No, it was very cool.
Helsinki is a very neat placeand it was fun to hang out there
.
But all I'm saying is this iskind of like a big geeky
(10:32):
convention, sort of like not acomic con, but think of like a
highbrow geeky convention whereyou can go.
And we saw George RR Martinwalking through the halls.
He was like a big trainconductor.
Did you ask him when he's goingto write?
Don (10:45):
again.
Ron (10:46):
I think at that point this was 2017.
It wasn't yet apparent how direthe situation would become for
the fans of that series, and sowe were there.
It's fun they have a big awardceremony and they give away the
biggest awards in the in thefield to like science fiction
and fantasy authors.
And I want to take us back to2016, the year prior to the one
(11:10):
we were in attendance for.
Don (11:13):
In 2016, something, something something vile was was
brewing, something, somethingreally gross was happening
behind the scenes at thisseemingly cute and you know,
sort of not all that uhoffensive uh, science fiction
fantasy awards ceremony so I didsome, I did some googling while
(11:36):
you were, uh, while you weredoing the introduction, and just
to contextualize the award, doyou think it, do you think it
would be helpful if we um talkedabout who has won this before?
just because I guess you keepsaying it's prestigious, but,
like it's, it's only vaguelysomething that I think I might
have heard of at one time, rightso?
Ron (11:54):
for sure.
If you've got a list, rattlethem off to me.
I was like I'm assuming if, ifanyone in the audience is
familiar with science fiction atall, I think, like all the
names that kind of pop in yourmind, have probably received
this award.
Am I correct?
Don (12:06):
um, I don't know about all of them, but so frank herbert uh
won for dune in 1966.
Um, isaac asman asimov uh forthe gods themselves.
Arthur c clark, clark forrendezvous with rama uh enders
game one uh.
Ron (12:21):
Orson scott card it's got to be a heinlein in there.
Right, Show me some RobertHeinlein.
Don (12:26):
I don't see him on my short list.
Oh my gosh.
Ron (12:29):
He's snuffed.
Don (12:30):
But it's varied too Like.
There's short stories byShirley Jackson that have won,
and then movies too, 2001, aSpace Odyssey wins, star Wars
has won, the Lord of the Ringshas won.
Ron (12:43):
Yeah, they always pick like the best sci-fi fantasy film of
the year.
Don (12:46):
So because these are kind of like snubbed by what, like
the oscars and stuff right andeven philip k dick won for the
man in the high castle, um which, of course, uh, who picked that
was that net uh, probably, yeah, I think so a yeah.
So so.
So these are like this is not alittle, a little award.
No, it's not a small thing,okay.
Ron (13:07):
Yeah, this is pretty big Like, again, if you are uh, you
know, following the world ofscience fiction and fantasy
literature, or if you arepublished in this world, this is
like this is your Oscars.
This is big right.
This is a big deal.
2016.
Well, the way the hugo awardswork is that, um, the like the
community gets to vote on theawards.
There's not like a secret panelof editors or anything.
(13:30):
Who decide who is going toreceive the hugo award is like
the one for the best novel ofthe year.
That's kind of like your bestpicture, right well, and that's
I was going to ask, because theoscars are like that, but you,
you have to be a member of theacademy to be so so it's not
just like not every I can't goget a vote on best picture um no
, you couldn't, but you couldget a best, a vote for best um
(13:54):
editorial I wrote in my highschool uh uh newspaper about the
likelihood of the gaza or gizapyramids.
Don (14:03):
Sorry, wow, what a what a slip of the Gaza or Giza
pyramids.
Sorry.
Ron (14:05):
Wow, what a, what a slip of the tongue.
A Giza pyramids powering abattery, that could you know?
Uh, power all of humancivilization for the first 500
years.
Um, so yeah, that article youcould get probably get votes for
.
Okay, Uh, because it's justanyone can vote.
Anyone who like goes to thewebsite uh, anyone can vote.
(14:25):
Anyone who like goes to thewebsite uh, you can nominate.
so the hugo community is anybodywho, anybody who is paying
attention, anyone happens by yepexactly all right, and you can
go and you can nominate whateveryou'd like and you can vote for
whatever you'd like, and it'ssupposed to be a very sort of
democratic like hey, we, youknow sounds like chaos, it could
be chaos, it could be chaos and, in fact, uh it, it became
chaos um in 2016,.
people were excitedly opening uptheir email inboxes to find out
(14:50):
who got nominated for thisyear's Hugo Awards, and they
found, at the top of one ofthose lists, a little author
named Chuck Tingle for his storySpace Raptor Butt Invasion.
Don (15:04):
And people said what?
Ron (15:05):
is going on with the Hugos and so what?
What is going on with the hugosand so what was really going on
with the hugos is thatapparently there was a little
bit of a political row going onbehind the scenes, amongst,
amongst members of the communityof the sci-fi fantasy community
.
A couple years prior, there wasa famous report that kind of
got published and this sparkedsome discourse in the sci-fi
fantasy scene.
(15:25):
And this report said thatbasically went and analyzed like
who, what kind of people, getpublished in sci-fi and fantasy,
and, uh, it found that lessthan 2% of all published sci-fi
fantasy works um, that year thiswas 2014, uh, came from black
authors.
Um, and the report was like,considering that, you know, uh,
(15:49):
black people make up 14% of theU S population.
This seems odd, right?
This seems like a bit low.
Don (15:56):
But you know, I'm remembering our UFO episode
where we discovered that mostaliens are Nordic.
So that would only make sense.
Definitely a factor in thisNordic gray or lizard, yeah yeah
.
Ron (16:11):
The Nordics have been censoring black literature for
generations, and so, anyways,this, this sparked a kind of you
know, a mostly peacefulconversation as.
I think lots of, uh, lots ofdifferent places were having
similar conversations aboutdiversity in 2014.
You remember 2014?
It doesn't sound like 30 yearsago.
Don (16:33):
It sounds like longer ago than I wish that it did, but
yeah.
Ron (16:37):
You know a lot of these kinds of conversations about hey
, is the United States asprovide, as equal opportunity,
as it says it does to all of itsuh many populations and and
people?
Um, and this was happening insci-fi and fantasy and, as a
reaction to these conversations,a group of I guess we could
(17:01):
call them knights, really anorder of knights, an order of um
warriors uh named the sadpuppies uh formed.
That's intimidating yeah yeah,yeah, right.
Um, the sad puppies is a namethey gave themselves.
Would you believe that?
Wow, um, and the sad puffieswere a group of sort of
(17:23):
reactionary um, mostly white,mostly male sci-fi fantasy
authors who thought that thisconversation about diversity was
getting a little bit out ofhand, that, uh, maybe the whole
conversation was getting blownout of the water, and they were
kind of that.
This, the the inciting incidentfor this was, um, the fact that
(17:44):
a woman won the Hugo Award in2014.
Anne Leckie wrote a novel,ancillary Justice, and this was
voted the best sci-fi book ofthe year.
And this, obviously, as yougasped, don you understand?
This can't stand.
Don (18:01):
This is aggressive behavior on the part of the hugos well,
and just to clarify, she wonthat award because she earned
the most votes that weredemocratically collected by
literally anybody who wanted tocast a vote did she earn them
done?
Ron (18:15):
or were the votes given to her as a sort of token
participation prize to encouragea leftist agenda that seeks to
supplant good art, culture andliterature by predominantly
white male authors, in a fieldthat is supposed to belong to
(18:37):
white male authors?
Don (18:37):
Well, that's a.
It's a.
It's a really interesting andabsolutely not provocative
question.
Provocative question, but.
But, uh, but, even if that weretrue, everybody's still on
getting one vote, so every.
So that would be what the whatthe movement is deciding to do.
Right, like it wouldn't be.
There's not, there's not amachine behind the vote.
Uh, um, counting that is saying, oh well, we're going to like
(19:01):
double count some votes that arefor the female author, because
we're trying to make up for apast injustice.
The votes were just the votes,right.
Ron (19:10):
That's exactly right, don, that's exactly right.
There's no real evidence thatanything untoward was happening
here.
Don (19:18):
Did they use Dominion machines when they were counting
the votes?
Ron (19:21):
Yeah, yeah, they fixed that .
They got rid of those real fast.
Um, but in order to you bringup a great point on that, like,
obviously you know a vote is avote and the system can't really
be manipulated.
So, um, following the 2014 hugoawards, the sad puppies decide
to manipulate the voting at thehugo awards in order to prove
how can they manipulate that?
Don (19:41):
everybody just gets one vote?
Ron (19:43):
well, what if you formed like a, an online group, right,
maybe a series of blogs, or youwent to like a forum or
something and you got a bunch ofpeople together and you gave
them a list and you said, hey,you are going to vote for these
books, these stories, thesethese items.
So, colluding, yes, exactlyright.
So, and, and that's what thesad puppies began to do, they
(20:05):
started publishing a list of umwhat wouldn't you know it?
Um books by white male authors,um, that they were going to
nominate for every category.
And then, once they had allcolluded and used their numbers
because again, it is such ascattered, uh kind of voting
process anyone can vote for it,you know, unless you like, have
a real impetus behind it.
(20:26):
It's or you actually are likethe most popular works.
Um, it's kind of like, you know, you, it's open to manipulation
, is, I guess, what I'm tryingto?
Don (20:36):
say so.
Uh, the author you started withmr tingle.
Yeah, is mr tingle white male?
Uh, sci-fi, I mean, I supposewhite male sci-fi, I mean.
I suppose it's sci-fi.
You mentioned space in thetitles.
Ron (20:47):
He loves sci-fi, he is white and he is male.
Don (20:51):
Yes, so the sad puppies were just trying to promote one
of their own.
They're clearly fans of MrTingle's work and wanted him to
get the recognition that heclearly deserved for the work
that he was producing.
Ron (21:04):
Don.
I wish it was that simple Inorder to explain we need to.
The sad puppies weren't theonly puppies.
The sad puppies was aself-named group of people
trying to fight this warped ideaof political correctness in
their favorite literary genre,and it spawned another group who
(21:25):
called themselves the RabidPuppies, oh, okay.
And the Sad Puppies said we'rethe Sad Puppies because we're
saddened by the state of sci-fiand fantasy.
And the Rabid Puppies saidwe're angry about it and we're
going to do something about it.
And the Rabid Puppies were,kind of like, led by this guy
named Theodore Beale.
(21:45):
Let me show you how cool thisguy is.
Okay, all right.
His pen name Vox Dei Prettycool, right?
Wow, that's pretty cool.
Oh, you want to know what elseis cool?
He also, online, refers tohimself as Supreme Dark Lord.
(22:07):
Oh okay.
Don (22:08):
Well, that's sci-fi-y.
Ron (22:09):
That's sci-fi-y.
Don (22:10):
And that is cool.
They call Darth Vader that, Ithink.
Yep, okay, well, that'ssci-fi-y.
That's sci-fi-y, and theycalled Darth Vader that I think.
Ron (22:14):
Yep, I'm Darth Vader.
I write science fiction books.
This guy, theodore Beale, wasactually booted out of the
Science Fiction and FantasyWriters of America organization
in 2014 for racist comments he'dmade towards a black author, nk
Jemisin Um, and was kind oflike at the time, already like
(22:37):
no one liked him, was alreadylike, uh, a bit washed up.
Um hadn't really writtenanything of like serious note,
it seems, or that was all thatpopular Um, but he kind of uses
this like situation at theHugo's to sort of I think, like
most of these people kind oflike make a name for himself and
put himself like in thelimelight for a little bit,
right, and so, uh, it's actuallythe rabid puppies who bring our
(23:00):
boy chuck tingle into thisstory.
Um, because the sad puppiestried for like two years to kind
of nominate a slate of booksand it like it never actually
worked right like, um, uh, theythey didn't actually have enough
people to affect the voting allthat much.
They thought they were muchlarger than they actually were
right, and so they weren'tactually getting anything past
(23:22):
what just normal people read andliked and voted for, and the
rabid puppies kind of changedthat in 2016.
And there's a couple of reasonsfor this One.
The rabid puppies kind ofchanged that in 2016.
And there's a couple of reasonsfor this One.
The rabid puppies kind of startdrawing like a larger crowd of
people to their kind of likethis issue because they very
(23:43):
clearly kind of associatethemselves with what we call the
alt-right Don.
What's the alt-right?
Don (23:50):
in.
Ron (23:50):
America.
Don (23:51):
Well, I mean it's been discussed as the opposite of the
radical left right.
So we've got the politicalspectrum left and right and then
.
So one side is conservative,one side is liberal, and then
the further you get away fromthe center you get to the more
radical extremes and alt-rightis past radical right.
(24:11):
Right Like alt-right is supermore.
Ron (24:12):
Right right like alt-right is is is super more writer right
the most rightist um uh yeahand and uh, you know the, at
least here in america, like, uh,members of alt-right
organizations have been verycredibly linked to uh, like
neo-nazi groups and whitesupremacy groups and, uh, you
know, fascist groups, just, youknow, really cool groups so far
(24:36):
right that it's pastconservative.
Don (24:38):
It's moving to reactionary, and it's not even beyond Right.
Ron (24:42):
It's not really.
It's a philosophy that's notreally interested in, like
traditional conservativepolitical viewpoints right.
They're almost only concernedwith like sort of cultural uh
politics right um and uh,they're like a you know, a key,
uh driving force behind, uh, theculture Wars right is a term
probably most everyone has heardby now.
(25:03):
Right, this idea that, likeAmerica, is so divided on
whether or not there can be awoman superhero in a Marvel
movie?
Right, right, because they goand review bomb things that they
don't like that typically, youknow center or feature, you know
female actors or characters orpeople of color, people of
(25:24):
non-traditional or you know,non-binary people, Exactly right
Like people that they justdecide they don't like or that
don't represent their idealvision of america.
So, anyways, uh, because therabid puppies are kind of like,
uh, sort of parroting a lot ofthis stuff, they just pull in
like other alt-right people whoprobably don't even really care
(25:44):
about sci-fi or the hugo awards,but it becomes this new sort of
like gang uh, gang press.
Is that a?
You know what I'm talking aboutpress game press game.
Thanks this kind of internetpress gang where people can just
jump in and like be angry aboutsomething and so um they start
nominating and they really likegay erotica.
So so the point is they nominatechuck tingle because they don't
(26:11):
like gay erotica, but they findChuck Tingle funny.
Okay, and let's pause here.
Who exactly is Chuck Tingle?
Right?
Chuck Tingle started publishingsort of like self-publishing
these Amazon eBooks around 2014.
And Chuck Tingle is obviously apseudonym.
We do not know Chuck Tingle'sreal name.
We don't know a lot about ChuckTingle's real identity at all.
(26:33):
Actually.
He's always been rathermysterious and for a long time,
he was just sort of like a nameon some very weird novels that
you could buy on Amazon, novelslike Creamed in the Butt by my
Handsome Living Corn Angry manPounded by the Fear of His
latent gayness over a dinosaurtransitioning into a unicorn uh
(26:56):
pounded.
Don (26:57):
That's the title or that's the summary.
Ron (26:58):
No, that's the title.
Okay, uh, that is the best.
Titles function as both don uh,pounded in the butt by my
handsome sentient library card,who seems otherworldly but in
reality is just a natural partof the priceless resources our
library system provides.
My macaroni and cheese is alesbian.
(27:19):
Also, she is my lawyer uh, youknow famous ones.
I have no butt, but I mustpound.
It's maybe one of my favorites,um.
And then, uh, not pounded inthe butt by anything, and that's
okay.
Um is another of his and so he's, uh, he writes, he's very
absurd and goofy um, uh, eroticafiction that becomes kind of
(27:43):
like a, an underground joke,right, like I would say he's
sort of like a millennial um, uh, john waters you familiar with
the filmmaker john waters?
Uh-huh, just kind of like aabsurdist and kind of campy and
kind of over the top and, um,especially in the realm of like
sexuality right, and sort ofbroaching conversations and
topics that are non-traditionalor sort of like considered
(28:07):
uncomfortable sometimes, right,um, and so no one really knows
much about Chuck Tingle.
But what we don't now is thathe is a guy, he, he, he claims
to live in Billings Montana.
Um, uh, he has a son named John, son name of John, um, john
might be.
He's like caretaker, um, Ithink Chuck has said that he is
(28:27):
autistic, um and um since 2016,.
He kind of, he kind of blew upas a result of this controversy
and he's had a number ofpodcasts.
My wife and I really enjoyedlistening to his podcast.
We got to see him talk once hewent to a bookstore and we got
to see him.
But whenever he's in public, healways wears a mask covering
(28:49):
his face and so he can't reallybe, identified.
He always wears a mask coveringhis face and so he can't really
be identified.
He wears like a pink lunch bagover his face with a hole cut
out for his mouth.
He'll wear sunglasses over thebag and usually he has written
on the bag a message that sayslove is real.
And Chuck Tingle claims that heis writing these stories one to
(29:10):
be kind of funny, but also thathe kind of has a broader point,
which is that he's trying toprove that love is writing these
stories one to be kind of funny, but also that he kind of has a
broader point, which is thathe's trying to prove that love
is real.
Which great, awesome.
These are not the reasons whythe rabbit puppies nominate him.
They nominate him because theythink this is funny, and they
kind of.
Two reasons here.
One, they're trying to nominateauthors in categories that will
(29:33):
take up the space of otherauthors.
Right, if we can get ChuckTingle in the best short story
category, then that takes onemore space away from a woman or
a person of color.
Author right.
And secondly, if we can getChuck Tingle to win the award,
then we will also kind of theHugos will look like they have
(29:55):
egg on their face, right Like haha, what, what?
What happened to the great HugoAwards that they're nominating
and awarding?
Space Butt Raptor.
Don (30:03):
Invasion, this award and how it's been disgraced, by
being awarded to, to, to a womanof all things, that we want to
completely undermine thelegitimacy of the award.
Ron (30:19):
Exactly.
That's somehow going to fixwhatever.
If we can't have it, nobody canDon.
Don (30:24):
Okay.
Ron (30:25):
Um, so this is, this is yeah, as you're, as you're
pointing out, it's ridiculous,right?
And and?
And I see some flaws in thelogic.
Do you want to point them outor are they self-evident?
Don (30:37):
And we hold these truths to be self-evident.
Ron (30:41):
So in 2016, ram and Puppies , you know, try to push a lot of
these and they have the numbersbehind this time to kind of get
a lot of these nominees uh intothe, into these categories, um,
a lot of the authors who werenominated as a, as, as part of
this political kind of statementor movement by the the puppies,
they choose to just uh, bow out, uh, so they're like okay, you
(31:04):
know, I, I realize I'm part ofthis thing.
I don't want to be affiliatedwith, I'm just gonna reject my
nomination and then.
Don (31:10):
So they weren't puppies, they, they were, they were.
Ron (31:18):
So, yeah, not all the nominees were like puppy people.
In fact, like very few of thepuppies are actually authors
themselves.
They're really just sort oflike online crybabies and
weirdos, right?
Um, uh uh Beal himself.
Uh was uh an author and aneditor editor and he did try to
get a lot of his work on theselists and frequently he did
manage to make it through thenomination process and he was a
(31:40):
potential award winner and we'llget back uh.
What he did uh was, uh he wrotea new story, um, about the
whole situation uh, which uh iscalled slammed in the butt by my
(32:01):
Hugo award nomination.
Um and uh, and here's a.
Here's a short passage fromthat.
Can I read that?
Oh, yeah, please, okay, allright, uh, from Chuck Tingles,
slammed in the butt by my Hugoaward nomination.
Wait, I tell the prestigiousnomination, let me be the one
who takes care of you tonight.
I want to show my thanks forthis incredible, handsome award.
(32:21):
I look up at him and suddenlyfind myself overwhelmed by love
and attraction to this awesomenomination.
Sure, he's penetrating deepwithin my throat, but he's also
penetrating my heart.
But he also includes this, whichyou know once we're done with
the hot and heavy stuff.
You know there is a point tothis and Tingle writes there's
(32:47):
lots of bucks out there whothink the soul of books is just
inside books, don't know thatreal love comes from proving
books are real for all who kissthat's inside and outside of
books goofball and uh I thinkwhat he's kind of trying to say
here, right, is like uh, the thething that rabid puppies kept
(33:09):
bringing up is like oh, peopleare just nominating and awarding
these books because they thinkit's important to get
representation.
This representation is thisoutward kind of thing, and that
what's actually in the booksdoesn't matter and that the
books can't actually be goodbecause authors we don't like
they're just writing to get thishandout award and therefore the
(33:31):
quality of the writing must bebad.
And this is the thing you hearfrom a lot of these kinds of
people, even today.
Right, oh, you know they can'twrite a, an actually good video
game that has a gay protagonist,because they're just doing it
to make pat themselves on theback, right, and that's contrary
to what Tingle is saying here.
Right, it's like no, these it.
It's like, no, people aren'tgetting these awards just
(33:53):
because they check a certain box.
It's because the fiction theywrite is actually pretty good.
They actually write goodfiction.
It is both things, and that, ofcourse, makes them mad.
It makes the puppy-type peoplemad, because that's kind of key
to their argument.
Their argument is like oh, thisis actually bad literature, but
(34:15):
, um, that's not true.
That it's an excuse they make inorder to they don't have to
call themselves racist ormisogynistic or something.
Don (34:23):
Right, well, and and and, just that idea that that a new
voice in the space somehow takesup space that used to belong to
the, the traditionallyrecognized, recognized voices.
Like that's the space is huge,like more.
More voices in the spacedoesn't mean that your voice has
less space to exist in.
It just means that there's morevoices around you right,
(34:44):
exactly right, like there's.
Ron (34:46):
I don't you know if I, if you walk through barnes and
noble, I don't think you'regoing to see uh, any fewer books
about colonizing mars orspaceships fighting in the
orion's belt, or you know likethose things still exist, right,
like uh, um, there's just likeother stuff.
Don (35:02):
They are sitting beside them now right, and and this is
an an unusual genre for me to betalking about I don don't read
science fiction much um ever.
Ron (35:13):
I used to read more of it than I do now I do.
I do really like sciencefiction.
Don (35:18):
Um, I haven't read to something in a while but of all
the books that I have read, likeeven the ones we were talking
about earlier, I don't normallyresearch the authors and no, no
yeah.
And even when you know I'vebeen, I've been buying books
online now and and you know Iread them on my e-reader rather
than in in, so I don't even getthe picture on the back of the
book.
So it never occurs to me to eventhink about what.
(35:41):
What race an author is that?
That that I'm reading Like itdoesn't?
It has no effect on the waythat I read a story.
The way that I read a story.
Ron (35:49):
No, I agree, Like I don't think I've ever chosen a book,
because of the author.
I mean you develop yourfavorite authors and you're like
oh, I'll read anything they putout, Right.
That always happens.
But I mean, yeah, you look at abook, you read the synopsis,
like oh, that's sick, Right.
And then you put it back no,that's what they're.
Don (36:11):
That's what I understand about the.
What the puppies are areconcerned with is judge the book
based on the book.
Why are we judging the bookbased on the?
Who the author is or was, andand that's so when?
And lucky is that her name.
One, the 2014 Hugo.
Like um, I imagine the peoplethat voted for it read it right,
(36:35):
like they didn't just vote onit.
So is is it?
I guess my question is is itthe concern of the puppies that
those votes were cast Notbecause someone read the book
and thought it was quality work,but just because she was the?
Was she the only womannominated?
So we were just feeling sorryfor the woman and giving her the
(36:59):
the consolation prize.
That's what they thought.
I don't, I don't.
I mean, I know you're not one,so you can't.
Ron (37:01):
I'm trying, I'm really trying to put myself in the
shoes here, don Um, but uh, Idon't, I don't know the
specifics about like that, theHugo, uh, like the 2014 Hugo,
and if there were other nomineesand stuff like that, I do have.
Like um.
I managed to get like, in theirown words, kind of there was a
statement, um, that the, thepuppies put out in their own
(37:24):
words, they said, um, they, theywere accusing the Hugo awards
of quote giving awards on thebasis of political correctness
and favoring authors and artistswho aren't straight, white and
male.
So, again, it's this idea ofunfairness, right, like um.
And this is also like, reallyinteresting to me because I
think this is just like a reallygood flashpoint, for you know,
(37:45):
something we're seeing inAmerica we've seen for the last
decade, I guess really now,we've seen for the last decade,
I guess really now um is thisevery time a conversation arises
about, hey, there might be someserious inequalities worth
looking at in American society,culture, film, whatever, right,
the, suddenly the group ofpeople who are not the
(38:07):
marginalized people suddenlyhave to rise up and defend.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
No, it's actually fine.
It's actually fine.
It's not that big a deal deal,and I don't super know where
that comes from.
Um, and they use these verylike, uh, like, as you've been
pointing out, don very thinarguments right about sort of
purity and fairness to to kindof like argue their point.
(38:29):
And I think it's just sort oflike, particularly when we're
talking about, like, a certaingroup of people who have like
sort of been in power, whetherthey perceived that power or not
, or been privileged in some way.
As soon as you tell them likehey, you may have been
privileged and it might be worthexpanding those privileges to
other people, I think they feelattacked because they feel like
(38:50):
that means I'm, I'm going tohave, uh, uh, the privilege.
Less privilege Right Like oh I'mgoing to lose some of my power.
Don (38:59):
Right.
And some of my importance whichis only true if you imagine
privilege as a zero sum game,right which?
In which case you're admittingthat you have more privilege
than another group and you don'twant to more privileged than
another group and you don't wantto.
You don't want that disparityto change, right you?
understand how much that wouldsuck to not have the privilege
because you're like oh, wow,right, and so it sucks for you
(39:21):
that you don't have it, but Iyou're not taking it from me,
but that's.
I think that's part of the, thefrustration that I feel in the
last decade and or plus that youknow, I think I mean decade
plus that has been super in theforefront of the media
discussion and the ongoingdiscussion in America.
But obviously it goes back wayfarther than that.
But just that idea that I don'twant someone else to have the
(39:47):
privileges that I have doesn'tmean that we're taking those
privileges away from you.
It just means that we're we'reexpanding them to other other
groups, other people, other.
So everyone should have anequal opportunity and equal on
equal footing.
It doesn't mean that you'velost footing.
It just means that we're givingother people there's more room
in the under the tent.
Ron (40:06):
Right.
But I do think there is, um, itis true, and I think, whether
they consciously identify thisor not, it does mean there'll be
more competition, right, like alot of things that like, let's
say, you're trying to get a job,right, I just have to compete
against this group of people,and if I suddenly now, you know,
open this job up to three otherclasses of people, whoa, now I
(40:28):
got to be even better than Ialready thought I was Right, and
so there is a sort of likeselfish motivation, I think
there, and I think that's partof the sad puppy thing, which is
wait, wait.
By token of being white and male, I was way more likely to get
this award for my work, and nowI now have to compete against
50% of the population, right?
(40:51):
So I do think there's thatelement to it.
But it does become interestingwhen it's like what?
Even people who aren't, um, uh,even people who aren't like
writers or or even affected bythis award, how they kind of
glom onto this right.
Like, oh, I identify as a memberof this group, even though I
technically am not.
(41:12):
I will never be a sci-fi orfantasy writer.
But God, do I need to defend myfellow sci-fi and fantasy
authors from this atrociousattack by the Hugo Awards?
So, anyways, chuck Tingle isyou know, he writes this story.
He's using it to kind oflampoon uh the the puppies.
He kind of goes and gives aseries of uh interviews about
(41:33):
this where he says, like he doesnot um uh associate with the
the puppies and their and theirweird project.
He also registers a website, um, he registers uh
rabidpuppiescom.
Don (41:48):
Chuck.
Ron (41:48):
Tingle does yeah, yeah, yeah.
So anytime someone goes thereright, he puts a.
If you go to the website, it'sjust a giant picture of
shirtless Channing Tatum lookingpretty fly and he has this
message written on.
He says hello, my name is ChuckTingle, world's greatest author
(42:09):
.
Sometimes devil men are so busyplanning scoundrel attacks they
forget to register importantwebsite names.
This is good because it makesit easy for buds who know love
is real to prove love.
Please understand.
This is a.
This website is to take darkmagic and replace with real love
for all who kiss the sky.
Um and uh, yeah, just kind oflike, continues to sort of troll
(42:35):
the these, these, these puppypeople.
Uh, in the same way they werekind of trying to troll the um,
uh, uh, awards um.
He uses this opportunity, uh,tingle uses this opportunity, um
to support um, a, a foundationfor online harassment.
Uh, uh, victims, um, uh.
(42:57):
That was started by zoe quinn.
Is the name zoe quinn familiarto you?
no zoe quinn was like at thesame time oh man, this is so
stupid, but do you?
Don (43:05):
remember gamergate.
Ron (43:06):
Do you remember this word?
I've heard that word.
Okay, around the same time,gamergate happening, which was
like a similar series ofalt-right attacks against women
in the video game industry,instead of like the sci-fi and
fantasy industry.
And Zoe Quinn was kind of likethe first person they targeted.
She was a video game developerand they made all sorts of gross
accusations about how she'dmanaged to publish her video
(43:28):
game and blah, blah, blah.
All of this bunch of of uhbunch of lies and things like
that.
But anyways, uh chuck uses thisan opportunity to draw
attention to her foundation, um.
She uh single.
Also drew attention to um uh,another a black woman author's
uh book, the fifth season, whichwas nominated for best novel uh
(43:50):
that year, 2016,.
Um uh by NK Jemisin, and uhalso drew eyes and money towards
a, a crowdfunding campaign foruh LGBTQ health resources, and
kind of just like took hismoment in the in the in the
spotlight here, to highlight alot of like really cool causes
(44:10):
and kind of take the impetusaway from the puppies um and uh
in an interview.
I found this interesting.
People were asking him like youknow he starts.
People are like hey, chuck,tingle, are you like for real,
what's going on here?
You talk weird, you write weird, your titles are absurd.
Um, are you like trolling us orlike is there a real point to
(44:31):
all this?
Um, and uh, someone asked himlike why do you?
Why do you write gay erotica?
And he responded more, are youlike trolling us?
Or like, is there a real pointto all this?
And someone asked him like whydo you write gay erotica?
And he responded more importantreason to write tinglers, which
is what he calls his fiction,is to prove that love is real
for all who kiss.
Saw a man on TV talking aboutbuds kissing buds and he said oh
, what's gonna happen if we letbuds kiss buds?
(44:52):
What's next?
Are they going to kiss planestoo?
So I thought, yes, all love isreal.
We should kiss planes becausethey are handsome to seeing
(45:13):
online.
Which is like these slipperyslope arguments of like whoa,
what?
What if my kid can identify asa woman?
Uh, does that mean he's goingto identify as a helicopter?
And just say, yes, yeah, that'sfine, like who cares?
Let's see if anyone identifiesas a helicopter and then we'll
deal with it.
And also, cool, helicopters aresick.
I kind of just really love thisenergy, uh, that he's uh
(45:34):
putting out.
So you're probably wonderingwhere does this all go?
Right, like uh, you know who.
Who wins?
Don (45:40):
Hey Ron, where does this all go?
Who wins?
Ron (45:45):
Uh, the results Did Chuck win the, the, the Hugo and in
all the categories where therabid puppies had nominees
nominated, none of theirnominees won those awards In
(46:07):
some categories.
So another thing you can votefor at the Hugo Awards is you
can just say no award.
If you think none of thenominees are worthy of the award
.
You can just vote no award.
And in almost all of thecategories where those nominee
slots had all been occupied byrabid puppies uh, you know works
, uh, that they had kind ofpromoted um.
(46:27):
More people just selected noaward than any of their books,
so it was just like a lot ofcategories had no award given.
Um nk jemisin uh for her um,her book Season did win the Hugo
that year, so they were nottriumphant in stifling the award
(46:49):
of the Hugo to a black womanauthor, vox Dei, the very cool
dweeb in charge of these puppies.
He had nominated himself besteditor and he had lost to a
woman, sheila Gibbert, and hehad also nominated himself for
best related work because he hadwritten a essay called SJW's
(47:13):
Always Lie, and more people saidno award given to that category
than than him.
So he didn't win anything.
None of their nominees wonanything.
Um and uh, all was right andwell and uh, um Chuck did not
win his uh award.
Um, instead, uh he, he was umuh beat out by a, a black female
(47:38):
author also.
Um, so um all, um, all was uh,well and right in 2017, the year
that we attended.
Apparently.
I wasn't aware at the time, butapparently the rabbit puppies
will still.
We're still there and they aretrying their games again, and
they tried um nominating anotherweird erotic author who may
have been made up, may have, mayhave been a plant by one of
them, um, and to the same result, none of of it Like a ficus.
Don (48:02):
Yes, yeah.
Ron (48:04):
A racist ficus was nominated.
Don (48:07):
That sounds like something Chuck Tingle would turn into A
tingler.
Yes, exactly.
Ron (48:12):
So and then basically at the end of 2017, the whole
voting block kind of vanished,disappeared.
It was recommended, or it wassuggested at one point by
someone studying this, thatthere was never more than like
60 people um in in this block atthe end of 2017, and so it's
kind of ceased since then.
The hugos kind of tidied uptheir um, uh, their award voting
(48:32):
process so that blocks ofpeople could be less sort of
manipulative and, uh, they'vekind of turned on ever since
then and, um, um, I did somequick research to be like, okay,
you know, in 2014 people weresaying, uh, there's only less
than 2%, um, uh, black authorsbeing published.
Uh, or less than 2% of thesci-fi fantasy works being
(48:53):
published were by black authors.
And has that changed much nowthat we're in 2024.
And it has actually.
That number has gone up fairlysignificantly.
Especially, many more women arebeing published than ever before
in science fiction and fantasy.
I looked at some numbers and in2020 was the most recent I
(49:15):
could find, but it was like morethan 50% of the um fantasy
books being published were bywomen.
About 47% of the sciencefiction books being published
were by women and, um, this islike led to a kind of uh, um, a
blooming of like sort of newgenres within the genre.
Like Afrofuturism has been areally big kind of uh, new genre
(49:39):
, micro genre within sciencefiction ever since then, kind of
spurred by things like blackpanther movie and stuff like
that, and so it's, uh, you know,in in some ways, uh, things are
definitely looking up, at leastin the sci-fi, fantasy world
the the data point that I would.
Don (49:55):
I don't think we have access to and can never have,
but I.
What I wonder about is how muchsci-fi was being written by
female authors or bymarginalized groups before right
to to reach that 2% in 2014,was it because they weren't
producing it, which you know?
That's a, that's a cycle too,because if you, if there are no
(50:16):
authors published, then itdoesn't become something that
community is aware of, and thenthey don't produce and then it
looks like it's you know thatthey're outsiders to a group
that should be inclusive.
Ron (50:28):
Right, it's the argument for why it's important to have
inclusive representation.
Don (50:33):
Yeah absolutely, and it's odd to me that science fiction
of all places would be the spot.
This would happen me, thatscience fiction of all places
would be the the spot.
This would happen because, youknow, in in my short lifetime,
science fiction has been theplace where we've been able to
experiment with.
You know, the futurism of civilrights, um, you know, even
going back to we, oh, we talkedabout um enemy mine, yeah, yeah,
(51:15):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
On the, the enterprise was wasmulticultural on purpose, in
order to demonstrate a futurewhere those cultural divisions
were not as starkly held.
Um, and I think it evenpredates that too.
Like I, I haven't read it foryears and years, but the time
machine by hg wells, right, the,the morlocks live under the
(51:37):
ground and they're the this, youknow, the, the lower class
humanoid, and but then the, whatwere the other people called
the?
Ron (51:45):
elo, yeah, elo elohim um and uh.
Don (51:51):
So again, science fiction was was able to imagine the
future, and the future alwayswas a place where we could have
worked through these problems orhave experimented with options
to coming through these problems.
And, just like fantasy storiesare a place to um, to, to play
around with reality in a waythat you can't play with in in
(52:14):
the real world.
Um, like, uh, district nineeven, right, uh, it's a place
where you can say well, what ifwe did it this way?
How would things work outdifferently, right?
Ron (52:26):
Oftentimes it's a way of like packaging important
messages or observations topeople who would, sort of like,
not naturally bring themselvesinto contact with that kind of
media.
Right, so like a lot of peoplewill like.
Oh, this book has.
You know, this book's about agay romance, right?
Uh, I'm not gay so I guess Ishouldn't read it.
(52:47):
Right, but if it's a gayromance between a man and a
sentient head of broccoli, rightLike.
Don (52:54):
Oh that just sounds funny, and then you read it, and then
now you maybe now you've gleanedsomething, uh, outside of your
own lived experience right, andyou have access to, to whatever
meaning is included there, right, yeah, um, but uh, but then
(53:18):
what gets fun is you know, uh,wolfgang eiser right, that
whatever meaning you take fromthe book is actually a meaning
that the reader has vivifiedfrom the text.
So it's not, it's not something.
The author is responsible for,but it's the, it's the reader,
it's Stanley Fish too, of course.
Um, the reader response, so uh.
So then that gets all that'sgoing to weird them out, because
then, oh my gosh, the sentienthead of broccoli made me feel
things but those feelings werecoming from inside me, yeah, so
(53:38):
yeah, you just remind me realquick um we're, we're.
Ron (53:47):
we are recording this in January of 2025 and the?
Did you see Nosferatu over thebreak?
I haven't seen it yet.
No, Okay, Uh, we've seen ittwice now.
I love it, but every time I'veseen it there has been at least
one like couple, like a pair ofpeople that have left somewhere
halfway through the film and ittouches on some, you know,
themes of female sexuality.
That, I think, makes someAmerican audience members maybe
uncomfortable, but it's beenfascinating to watch, like what
(54:10):
are the things people arepulling from the text.
That is when they decide thisis not for me or I do not like
what I'm pulling from this text.
But yeah, science fiction andfantasy obviously has always
been about speculation, it'salways been about metaphor, it's
always been about examinationsof very present day trials and
(54:32):
questions, and obviously thoselike, if you want the best
answers to those questions, youshould open the question to as
many uh voices as possible.
Don (54:44):
Right.
Ron (54:44):
Because, uh, you know, we're here gathering, uh, you
know, trying to make decisions,and I, personally, I like
getting as much information as Ican before I make a decision,
and so why wouldn't I want tosee everyone's interpretation of
how this, uh, how this, how howwe can move past, uh, the, the
troubles of today and, um, andand what we need to worry about
down the road?
Don (55:04):
Well, and since, as you brought up, the there's an
association with with some ofthese people and and um more,
the far right alt right, rightthe um the um, there's always a
nostalgia, for you know, that'snot how it used to be and and I
don't like the change that I'mseeing in the world that I see,
(55:25):
because it was better before.
But obviously it usually meansbetter for me.
Ron (55:29):
Yeah.
Don (55:29):
But but those things in the past were never static either.
Ron (55:33):
Yeah.
Don (55:33):
You know and the things that that people imagine our
traditions and we can't changethat because that's the
tradition of how we do it inthis country or how we do it in
in my family or whatever, likethose traditions are are not
much more than a generation oldyes, you know, they, they.
We didn't always have turkey onthanksgiving yeah, we didn't
always have thanksgiving yeah,um, you know, it's only been a
(55:55):
little time, so the the fluidityof tradition is something that
could be embraced rather thanresisted, and and then these
things should be easier.
But other thing that I'm reallyimpressed with with the story
that you've told us so far isthe way that Chuck Tingle um
reclaimed that narrative and howhe, rather than than just
rejecting it and fighting it, heused it.
(56:17):
He found a way to very cleverlyuse it for a platform to
continue the message that he wassending in the first place, um,
and kind of co-opt it into uh.
So kudos to him for for beingable to do that.
Ron (56:30):
That's uh, that's a uh, a clever and uh, skillful move
yeah, chuck single's kind of ahero in our household and, um, I
think there's something abouthim that kind of draws us to him
, is just sort of sort of likehis sincerity about everything.
Right, like I said, we we sawhim talk.
He's since moved on from, Imean, I think he still publishes
(56:52):
his, his tinglers, but he'salso received, um, uh, uh, real
publishing deals he's actuallyworking through.
He's he's moved on to horrornow he does.
He publishes, like young adulthorror novels that are pretty
sick actually.
Um, we were, we were, uh, whenwe saw him.
He was, um, on the press tourfor his novel, camp Damascus.
Um, and he's just like a reallycool guy.
(57:14):
He liked my metal t-shirt.
He likes deaf heaven, uh, theband.
So he's got good taste in blackmetal and stuff.
So, uh, so that's cool, um, buthe's just like uh, it's nice to
see a public figure who justsort of like bold-facedly, is
saying like, hey, um, it'sperfectly fine to just like, uh,
(57:34):
that love is real and thatsounds stupid to say, but it
does seem like a weirdly uh likea political statement nowadays
is it's just fine for anyone tokind of live their life however
they want without harming anyoneelse, and uh, whether or not
that seems odd to you, itdoesn't really matter.
Don (57:52):
It's perfectly okay Like there's lots of things it
doesn't affect me.
Ron (57:55):
I see a lot of odd things.
I see people in, uh you know,with some very weird stickers on
the back of their truck and I'mall the power to them, right?
That's how I feel.
There are people who watch TVshows, that I think why the?
Hell would you watch that?
But all the power to them.
I'm glad it's out there.
Why would you watch YoungSheldon?
(58:16):
I'm not sure, but if you are,congrats, I'm glad you have
something to make you laugh atthe end of the day, and I think
we could all be a little bitmore like that.
Right, we can, we can all itdoesn't affect me.
Don (58:28):
I can, you can have an opinion about it, but you you're
welcome to keep it to yourself.
Yes, exactly, if, if, if whatsomeone is doing is is not
directly affecting you, then letthem have their decision, their
love, their yeah, love is real,don Love is real, and this
podcast is real and willcontinue to be real and we love
(58:50):
all our cannibals, uncannibals.
Ron (58:53):
Cannibals and uncannibals alike.
You're all welcome here in thistent.
Thank you guys for tuning inwith us today and we'll see you
next time on the uncannery.
Don (59:16):
Thank you.
Thank you, hello and welcome back sibilant revelers
to the uncannery.
(00:35):
It is I, ron, returned from thedeath of the old year and
sitting across from me is I'mdone and oh, there is no Doug.
Don (00:50):
Guys, I'm sorry, we have bad news, we have very bad news.
Ron (00:53):
So Doug's a father.
Doug and his lovely wifeintroduced or brought a new life
into the world over the holidayseason and because of this he
will be rightfully and earnedlyspending time with his new kid
(01:18):
and we wish him a speedyrecovery.
We hope his kid is 18.
As soon as possible so that wecan get him back into our life.
But many happy congratulationsto them.
And so that means you guys gota Don and Ron duo today.
You're stuck with us.
Yeah, you're stuck with us.
(01:39):
I know we've been reading a lotin your mail and we know that
we are your two least favoritehosts, and then we don't spend
enough time talking aboutwrestling.
So really this is a dream forus, because we don't have to
talk about wrestling, or Mahjongor whatever.
(02:00):
Thank you all for joining us.
I know we took a break therefor the holidays, but, hey,
everyone deserves a break on theholidays.
Since it's the new year, don, Iwas thinking you know this is a
great time to reflect and lookback.
And you know, you and I, we'reboth cultured men, right.
Don (02:14):
Allegedly yeah, yeah.
Ron (02:16):
You know, my very expansive definition of cultured applies
to us.
And do you read any good books?
I've been thinking like, uh, Idon't, I don't read as much as I
used to, um, but I, I imagineyou read more than I do.
What?
Was what was 2024, like inbooks for you I wouldn't want.
Don (02:33):
I wouldn't want it to be a horse race like that.
Um it uh it comes in.
It comes in spurts, and 2024was was less of a more of a
dribble than a spurt.
Ron (02:44):
That's okay, that's fine.
Don (02:46):
There are ways to fix that.
I did read a book called theWives of Henry VIII.
I was doing some traveling overthe summer and visiting some of
those locations, so so I wantedto to get a little bit more in
depth there.
That's not super interestingthough.
I mean it's just history.
I mean it was a good book, butit's just history.
Ron (03:02):
There's something about traveling and like reading a
thing that sort of enhances yourexperience, right Like oh, this
is, it provides context for thelocation your locations you're
moving through.
That's pretty cool yeah.
Don (03:17):
Would you recommend it to people interested?
In the time it was a goodversion of the Henry VIII story,
so yeah, if that's what you'reinterested in, that would be one
that I recommend for sure.
Ron (03:26):
um, I read song of solomon um, I know this title, but I
can't think for the life of mewhat that book's about right now
.
Don (03:34):
Uh tony marson.
So it's right, okay, yeah, umit.
Uh, I read it for uh to helpout uh a friend.
Um, I also finished the uh thelast kingdom series by.
Okay, yeah, it's utry bernard,uh, cornwall, yeah, utrid okay,
(03:55):
we've seen son of utrid.
Ron (03:56):
We've seen the series and utrid is a.
He's a.
He's a big man in our house.
Yeah, but I've not read themyet.
Don (04:01):
Yeah so that's, that was my .
That was my, that was my 2024.
That that's it.
It wasn't.
It wasn't a a year full of ofliterary wealth.
Oh, I also read um.
Oh, this one's kind of fun.
Uh, the Windsor knot.
Ron (04:17):
Oh, so now you can tie a really sick knot.
Don (04:21):
So it's a, it's a Windsor, it's a, it's a murder mystery,
like a a negative, Christiestyle murder mystery kind of.
Ron (04:27):
But a queen Elizabeth the second involves herself in the,
the, the detective assault.
Don (04:32):
She, she is, she, she involves herself in the solution
, and it's a series.
There's two more books in my,in my, my nook library the
double Winds are ready to gothat I haven't quite gotten to
yet, but uh, but that was funtoo.
So kind of an eclectic set ofuh of reading.
Ron (04:49):
Yeah, that's pretty good.
I think that's a pretty stronglist, so I don't know if I like
finished a single book, maybeone, over the year.
My reading habit now has becomemore like read part of a thing
and then put it back on theshelf and start a new thing, and
then, hopefully return to thatfirst thing within three years.
Yeah, tasting platter yeah, kindof like.
Uh, oh, this has sated myinterest in the topic now and if
(05:14):
I, I mean, yeah, I'm eithergonna like not read anything if
I force myself to finish it or Icould just pick up a new thing
I'm interested in.
But, um, I think the mostrecent thing, I finished the
silmarillion by JRR Tolkien,which is something I've read
many times before, but it's justsort of a.
It's a fun holiday.
Around the holidays I get intolike a Tolkien mood and I'll
(05:35):
pick up the Hobbit or somethingand just sort of leave through
that.
I was reading Barbara Tuckman'sA Distant Mirror.
Have you read this one?
I feel like this is so up youralley I have not, it's like a.
It's a history of um, mirrors,not mirrors.
Uh, it's the.
I want to say the 15th century.
Uh, when?
(05:56):
When was the black plague?
14th, okay, four, okay, so it'sa.
It's a.
It's a history like the 14thcentury, um, from like the
Plague through to the HundredYears War and kind of focusing
on like one particular dude.
So fun medieval history stuff.
Don (06:09):
Was that dude's name Henry?
Ron (06:11):
No, his name is De Chautzy.
It's French man, I don't know.
He's like something.
De Chautzy is his family name.
He's just involved in a lot ofthe historical events and he's
kind of fun.
Yeah, bob De Chautzy familyname.
And um, he's just involved in alot of the historical events
and he's kind of fun.
Yeah, bob de chousey.
And.
And then I read like a historyof the mexican revolution.
It was a history year for me, Iguess.
(06:32):
Really, I think the only novelI finished was um, uh, under the
volcano.
Um, malcolm lowry.
Uh, it's just about a guyliving out in.
Uh.
Uh, it's about.
It's about a drunk Englishmanliving in Mexico.
Uh, in the 1930s.
Uh, which is you know a lot ofHemingway.
Yes, exactly A lot ofliterature of that time period.
(06:53):
Um, hey, um.
But you know I was wondering ifyou'd ever.
You know you're a well-read guy.
You, I'd say you probably haveyour thumb on most of the
classics, right, or you know?
Don (07:09):
an essential portion of them, would you say.
I would say a portion of them.
Yeah, there's a.
There's so many it's hard toreally sample them all.
Ron (07:14):
Of course, of course.
But you, uh, you ever read ummy billionaire triceratops?
Craves, gay ass.
Don (07:21):
I haven't.
No, that's a, that's a newtitle, that's weird.
Ron (07:24):
That one's pretty.
I feel like that one's beenpretty influential.
Huh, oh, what about I'm gayfrom my living billionaire jet
plane?
Don (07:33):
Nope, I haven't, I'm not, you know, I can't even, I can't
even.
That doesn't sound familiar tome.
Is that Dickens?
Ron (07:40):
No, it's a lot more recent than Dickens.
These are stories by a mannamed Chuck Tingle.
You ever heard of Chuck Tingle?
I'm not Chuck Tingle, Dearlistener, if you've ever heard
of Chuck Tingle then youprobably know where this
episode's going.
Don (08:00):
But I want to talk about an American author named Chuck
Tingle today who, in 2016, foundhimself kind of embroiled in a
scandal, himself kind ofembroiled in a scandal.
Should we suggest to anyonelistening that might have young
ears nearby that today's topicmight be one to skip through
today?
Ron (08:15):
There will be some.
Don (08:16):
Nothing explicit.
Ron (08:17):
No explicit language or intentionally crude language,
but we are talking about a, anauthor who specializes in uh,
gay, erotic fiction, and so, um,probably should have said that
before I said triceratops cravesgay ass, maybe we could go back
and we could edit that into thevery beginning of the show just
(08:38):
pretend that we did, it'd befine.
But yeah, if you think, uh,this might not be a perfect
topic for some ears in the roomthen yeah, maybe return to this
one late at night when you'realone in your room.
Uh, I want to talk about in 2016, don.
You're probably familiar withthe, the hugo awards.
(08:58):
You ever heard of the?
Don (08:58):
hugo awards.
That sounds familiar, but uh,but remind me which, which or
which, what are they awardingthe?
Ron (09:05):
hugo awards are a?
Um, probably, I think they'reconsidered the most prestigious
uh award show or ceremony forscience fiction and fantasy
literature.
Oh, okay, predominant, likescience fiction and fantasy
media.
You know, they'll give awardsto films.
They'll give awards to films,they'll give awards to comics
and journals and things likethat, but it's most famous, uh,
for novels, uh, and literature.
(09:28):
Um, ever since 1953, the Hugoawards have been going on.
They go uh every year andthey're always presented at
world con, which is a kind ofscience fiction and fantasy
convention that travels theworld.
Um, in 2017, I actually went toWorldcon, don.
Don (09:43):
What?
Yeah, you won't believe where Iwas hosted.
Ron (09:45):
Were you nominated?
I was not nominated.
I was a hanger-on.
I was riding the tailcoats ofmy wife, who was invited by
Worldcon to give a presentationbased on a paper she'd written
in grad school, and so we went.
We went to Helsinki, finland.
I was going to guess the.
Don (10:04):
Space Needle but.
Ron (10:07):
They should have a Space Needle in Helsinki.
You ever wanted to go toFinland, Don.
Um you can be honest, Not, notwith a strong desire, no Well
let me tell you uh, you're right, you don't have to go.
No, it was very cool.
Helsinki is a very neat placeand it was fun to hang out there
.
But all I'm saying is this iskind of like a big geeky
(10:32):
convention, sort of like not acomic con, but think of like a
highbrow geeky convention whereyou can go.
And we saw George RR Martinwalking through the halls.
He was like a big trainconductor.
Did you ask him when he's goingto write?
Don (10:45):
again.
Ron (10:46):
I think at that point this was 2017.
It wasn't yet apparent how direthe situation would become for
the fans of that series, and sowe were there.
It's fun they have a big awardceremony and they give away the
biggest awards in the in thefield to like science fiction
and fantasy authors.
And I want to take us back to2016, the year prior to the one
(11:10):
we were in attendance for.
Don (11:13):
In 2016, something, something something vile was was
brewing, something, somethingreally gross was happening
behind the scenes at thisseemingly cute and you know,
sort of not all that uhoffensive uh, science fiction
fantasy awards ceremony so I didsome, I did some googling while
(11:36):
you were, uh, while you weredoing the introduction, and just
to contextualize the award, doyou think it, do you think it
would be helpful if we um talkedabout who has won this before?
just because I guess you keepsaying it's prestigious, but,
like it's, it's only vaguelysomething that I think I might
have heard of at one time, rightso?
Ron (11:54):
for sure.
If you've got a list, rattlethem off to me.
I was like I'm assuming if, ifanyone in the audience is
familiar with science fiction atall, I think, like all the
names that kind of pop in yourmind, have probably received
this award.
Am I correct?
Don (12:06):
um, I don't know about all of them, but so frank herbert uh
won for dune in 1966.
Um, isaac asman asimov uh forthe gods themselves.
Arthur c clark, clark forrendezvous with rama uh enders
game one uh.
Ron (12:21):
Orson scott card it's got to be a heinlein in there.
Right, Show me some RobertHeinlein.
Don (12:26):
I don't see him on my short list.
Oh my gosh.
Ron (12:29):
He's snuffed.
Don (12:30):
But it's varied too Like.
There's short stories byShirley Jackson that have won,
and then movies too, 2001, aSpace Odyssey wins, star Wars
has won, the Lord of the Ringshas won.
Ron (12:43):
Yeah, they always pick like the best sci-fi fantasy film of
the year.
Don (12:46):
So because these are kind of like snubbed by what, like
the oscars and stuff right andeven philip k dick won for the
man in the high castle, um which, of course, uh, who picked that
was that net uh, probably, yeah, I think so a yeah.
So so.
So these are like this is not alittle, a little award.
No, it's not a small thing,okay.
Ron (13:07):
Yeah, this is pretty big Like, again, if you are uh, you
know, following the world ofscience fiction and fantasy
literature, or if you arepublished in this world, this is
like this is your Oscars.
This is big right.
This is a big deal.
2016.
Well, the way the hugo awardswork is that, um, the like the
community gets to vote on theawards.
There's not like a secret panelof editors or anything.
(13:30):
Who decide who is going toreceive the hugo award is like
the one for the best novel ofthe year.
That's kind of like your bestpicture, right well, and that's
I was going to ask, because theoscars are like that, but you,
you have to be a member of theacademy to be so so it's not
just like not every I can't goget a vote on best picture um no
, you couldn't, but you couldget a best, a vote for best um
(13:54):
editorial I wrote in my highschool uh uh newspaper about the
likelihood of the gaza or gizapyramids.
Don (14:03):
Sorry, wow, what a what a slip of the Gaza or Giza
pyramids.
Sorry.
Ron (14:05):
Wow, what a, what a slip of the tongue.
A Giza pyramids powering abattery, that could you know?
Uh, power all of humancivilization for the first 500
years.
Um, so yeah, that article youcould get probably get votes for
.
Okay, Uh, because it's justanyone can vote.
Anyone who like goes to thewebsite uh, anyone can vote.
(14:25):
Anyone who like goes to thewebsite uh, you can nominate.
so the hugo community is anybodywho, anybody who is paying
attention, anyone happens by yepexactly all right, and you can
go and you can nominate whateveryou'd like and you can vote for
whatever you'd like, and it'ssupposed to be a very sort of
democratic like hey, we, youknow sounds like chaos, it could
be chaos, it could be chaos and, in fact, uh it, it became
chaos um in 2016,.
people were excitedly opening uptheir email inboxes to find out
(14:50):
who got nominated for thisyear's Hugo Awards, and they
found, at the top of one ofthose lists, a little author
named Chuck Tingle for his storySpace Raptor Butt Invasion.
Don (15:04):
And people said what?
Ron (15:05):
is going on with the Hugos and so what?
What is going on with the hugosand so what was really going on
with the hugos is thatapparently there was a little
bit of a political row going onbehind the scenes, amongst,
amongst members of the communityof the sci-fi fantasy community
.
A couple years prior, there wasa famous report that kind of
got published and this sparkedsome discourse in the sci-fi
fantasy scene.
(15:25):
And this report said thatbasically went and analyzed like
who, what kind of people, getpublished in sci-fi and fantasy,
and, uh, it found that lessthan 2% of all published sci-fi
fantasy works um, that year thiswas 2014, uh, came from black
authors.
Um, and the report was like,considering that, you know, uh,
(15:49):
black people make up 14% of theU S population.
This seems odd, right?
This seems like a bit low.
Don (15:56):
But you know, I'm remembering our UFO episode
where we discovered that mostaliens are Nordic.
So that would only make sense.
Definitely a factor in thisNordic gray or lizard, yeah yeah
.
Ron (16:11):
The Nordics have been censoring black literature for
generations, and so, anyways,this, this sparked a kind of you
know, a mostly peacefulconversation as.
I think lots of, uh, lots ofdifferent places were having
similar conversations aboutdiversity in 2014.
You remember 2014?
It doesn't sound like 30 yearsago.
Don (16:33):
It sounds like longer ago than I wish that it did, but
yeah.
Ron (16:37):
You know a lot of these kinds of conversations about hey
, is the United States asprovide, as equal opportunity,
as it says it does to all of itsuh many populations and and
people?
Um, and this was happening insci-fi and fantasy and, as a
reaction to these conversations,a group of I guess we could
(17:01):
call them knights, really anorder of knights, an order of um
warriors uh named the sadpuppies uh formed.
That's intimidating yeah yeah,yeah, right.
Um, the sad puppies is a namethey gave themselves.
Would you believe that?
Wow, um, and the sad puffieswere a group of sort of
(17:23):
reactionary um, mostly white,mostly male sci-fi fantasy
authors who thought that thisconversation about diversity was
getting a little bit out ofhand, that, uh, maybe the whole
conversation was getting blownout of the water, and they were
kind of that.
This, the the inciting incidentfor this was, um, the fact that
(17:44):
a woman won the Hugo Award in2014.
Anne Leckie wrote a novel,ancillary Justice, and this was
voted the best sci-fi book ofthe year.
And this, obviously, as yougasped, don you understand?
This can't stand.
Don (18:01):
This is aggressive behavior on the part of the hugos well,
and just to clarify, she wonthat award because she earned
the most votes that weredemocratically collected by
literally anybody who wanted tocast a vote did she earn them
done?
Ron (18:15):
or were the votes given to her as a sort of token
participation prize to encouragea leftist agenda that seeks to
supplant good art, culture andliterature by predominantly
white male authors, in a fieldthat is supposed to belong to
(18:37):
white male authors?
Don (18:37):
Well, that's a.
It's a.
It's a really interesting andabsolutely not provocative
question.
Provocative question, but.
But, uh, but, even if that weretrue, everybody's still on
getting one vote, so every.
So that would be what the whatthe movement is deciding to do.
Right, like it wouldn't be.
There's not, there's not amachine behind the vote.
Uh, um, counting that is saying, oh well, we're going to like
(19:01):
double count some votes that arefor the female author, because
we're trying to make up for apast injustice.
The votes were just the votes,right.
Ron (19:10):
That's exactly right, don, that's exactly right.
There's no real evidence thatanything untoward was happening
here.
Don (19:18):
Did they use Dominion machines when they were counting
the votes?
Ron (19:21):
Yeah, yeah, they fixed that .
They got rid of those real fast.
Um, but in order to you bringup a great point on that, like,
obviously you know a vote is avote and the system can't really
be manipulated.
So, um, following the 2014 hugoawards, the sad puppies decide
to manipulate the voting at thehugo awards in order to prove
how can they manipulate that?
Don (19:41):
everybody just gets one vote?
Ron (19:43):
well, what if you formed like a, an online group, right,
maybe a series of blogs, or youwent to like a forum or
something and you got a bunch ofpeople together and you gave
them a list and you said, hey,you are going to vote for these
books, these stories, thesethese items.
So, colluding, yes, exactlyright.
So, and, and that's what thesad puppies began to do, they
(20:05):
started publishing a list of umwhat wouldn't you know it?
Um books by white male authors,um, that they were going to
nominate for every category.
And then, once they had allcolluded and used their numbers
because again, it is such ascattered, uh kind of voting
process anyone can vote for it,you know, unless you like, have
a real impetus behind it.
(20:26):
It's or you actually are likethe most popular works.
Um, it's kind of like, you know, you, it's open to manipulation
, is, I guess, what I'm tryingto?
Don (20:36):
say so.
Uh, the author you started withmr tingle.
Yeah, is mr tingle white male?
Uh, sci-fi, I mean, I supposewhite male sci-fi, I mean.
I suppose it's sci-fi.
You mentioned space in thetitles.
Ron (20:47):
He loves sci-fi, he is white and he is male.
Don (20:51):
Yes, so the sad puppies were just trying to promote one
of their own.
They're clearly fans of MrTingle's work and wanted him to
get the recognition that heclearly deserved for the work
that he was producing.
Ron (21:04):
Don.
I wish it was that simple Inorder to explain we need to.
The sad puppies weren't theonly puppies.
The sad puppies was aself-named group of people
trying to fight this warped ideaof political correctness in
their favorite literary genre,and it spawned another group who
(21:25):
called themselves the RabidPuppies, oh, okay.
And the Sad Puppies said we'rethe Sad Puppies because we're
saddened by the state of sci-fiand fantasy.
And the Rabid Puppies saidwe're angry about it and we're
going to do something about it.
And the Rabid Puppies were,kind of like, led by this guy
named Theodore Beale.
(21:45):
Let me show you how cool thisguy is.
Okay, all right.
His pen name Vox Dei Prettycool, right?
Wow, that's pretty cool.
Oh, you want to know what elseis cool?
He also, online, refers tohimself as Supreme Dark Lord.
(22:07):
Oh okay.
Don (22:08):
Well, that's sci-fi-y.
Ron (22:09):
That's sci-fi-y.
Don (22:10):
And that is cool.
They call Darth Vader that, Ithink.
Yep, okay, well, that'ssci-fi-y.
That's sci-fi-y, and theycalled Darth Vader that I think.
Ron (22:14):
Yep, I'm Darth Vader.
I write science fiction books.
This guy, theodore Beale, wasactually booted out of the
Science Fiction and FantasyWriters of America organization
in 2014 for racist comments he'dmade towards a black author, nk
Jemisin Um, and was kind oflike at the time, already like
(22:37):
no one liked him, was alreadylike, uh, a bit washed up.
Um hadn't really writtenanything of like serious note,
it seems, or that was all thatpopular Um, but he kind of uses
this like situation at theHugo's to sort of I think, like
most of these people kind oflike make a name for himself and
put himself like in thelimelight for a little bit,
right, and so, uh, it's actuallythe rabid puppies who bring our
(23:00):
boy chuck tingle into thisstory.
Um, because the sad puppiestried for like two years to kind
of nominate a slate of booksand it like it never actually
worked right like, um, uh, theythey didn't actually have enough
people to affect the voting allthat much.
They thought they were muchlarger than they actually were
right, and so they weren'tactually getting anything past
(23:22):
what just normal people read andliked and voted for, and the
rabid puppies kind of changedthat in 2016.
And there's a couple of reasonsfor this One.
The rabid puppies kind ofchanged that in 2016.
And there's a couple of reasonsfor this One.
The rabid puppies kind of startdrawing like a larger crowd of
people to their kind of likethis issue because they very
(23:43):
clearly kind of associatethemselves with what we call the
alt-right Don.
What's the alt-right?
Don (23:50):
in.
Ron (23:50):
America.
Don (23:51):
Well, I mean it's been discussed as the opposite of the
radical left right.
So we've got the politicalspectrum left and right and then
.
So one side is conservative,one side is liberal, and then
the further you get away fromthe center you get to the more
radical extremes and alt-rightis past radical right.
(24:11):
Right Like alt-right is supermore.
Ron (24:12):
Right right like alt-right is is is super more writer right
the most rightist um uh yeahand and uh, you know the, at
least here in america, like, uh,members of alt-right
organizations have been verycredibly linked to uh, like
neo-nazi groups and whitesupremacy groups and, uh, you
know, fascist groups, just, youknow, really cool groups so far
(24:36):
right that it's pastconservative.
Don (24:38):
It's moving to reactionary, and it's not even beyond Right.
Ron (24:42):
It's not really.
It's a philosophy that's notreally interested in, like
traditional conservativepolitical viewpoints right.
They're almost only concernedwith like sort of cultural uh
politics right um and uh,they're like a you know, a key,
uh driving force behind, uh, theculture Wars right is a term
probably most everyone has heardby now.
(25:03):
Right, this idea that, likeAmerica, is so divided on
whether or not there can be awoman superhero in a Marvel
movie?
Right, right, because they goand review bomb things that they
don't like that typically, youknow center or feature, you know
female actors or characters orpeople of color, people of
(25:24):
non-traditional or you know,non-binary people, Exactly right
Like people that they justdecide they don't like or that
don't represent their idealvision of america.
So, anyways, uh, because therabid puppies are kind of like,
uh, sort of parroting a lot ofthis stuff, they just pull in
like other alt-right people whoprobably don't even really care
(25:44):
about sci-fi or the hugo awards,but it becomes this new sort of
like gang uh, gang press.
Is that a?
You know what I'm talking aboutpress game press game.
Thanks this kind of internetpress gang where people can just
jump in and like be angry aboutsomething and so um they start
nominating and they really likegay erotica.
So so the point is they nominatechuck tingle because they don't
(26:11):
like gay erotica, but they findChuck Tingle funny.
Okay, and let's pause here.
Who exactly is Chuck Tingle?
Right?
Chuck Tingle started publishingsort of like self-publishing
these Amazon eBooks around 2014.
And Chuck Tingle is obviously apseudonym.
We do not know Chuck Tingle'sreal name.
We don't know a lot about ChuckTingle's real identity at all.
(26:33):
Actually.
He's always been rathermysterious and for a long time,
he was just sort of like a nameon some very weird novels that
you could buy on Amazon, novelslike Creamed in the Butt by my
Handsome Living Corn Angry manPounded by the Fear of His
latent gayness over a dinosaurtransitioning into a unicorn uh
(26:56):
pounded.
Don (26:57):
That's the title or that's the summary.
Ron (26:58):
No, that's the title.
Okay, uh, that is the best.
Titles function as both don uh,pounded in the butt by my
handsome sentient library card,who seems otherworldly but in
reality is just a natural partof the priceless resources our
library system provides.
My macaroni and cheese is alesbian.
(27:19):
Also, she is my lawyer uh, youknow famous ones.
I have no butt, but I mustpound.
It's maybe one of my favorites,um.
And then, uh, not pounded inthe butt by anything, and that's
okay.
Um is another of his and so he's, uh, he writes, he's very
absurd and goofy um, uh, eroticafiction that becomes kind of
(27:43):
like a, an underground joke,right, like I would say he's
sort of like a millennial um, uh, john waters you familiar with
the filmmaker john waters?
Uh-huh, just kind of like aabsurdist and kind of campy and
kind of over the top and, um,especially in the realm of like
sexuality right, and sort ofbroaching conversations and
topics that are non-traditionalor sort of like considered
(28:07):
uncomfortable sometimes, right,um, and so no one really knows
much about Chuck Tingle.
But what we don't now is thathe is a guy, he, he, he claims
to live in Billings Montana.
Um, uh, he has a son named John, son name of John, um, john
might be.
He's like caretaker, um, Ithink Chuck has said that he is
(28:27):
autistic, um and um since 2016,.
He kind of, he kind of blew upas a result of this controversy
and he's had a number ofpodcasts.
My wife and I really enjoyedlistening to his podcast.
We got to see him talk once hewent to a bookstore and we got
to see him.
But whenever he's in public, healways wears a mask covering
(28:49):
his face and so he can't reallybe, identified.
He always wears a mask coveringhis face and so he can't really
be identified.
He wears like a pink lunch bagover his face with a hole cut
out for his mouth.
He'll wear sunglasses over thebag and usually he has written
on the bag a message that sayslove is real.
And Chuck Tingle claims that heis writing these stories one to
(29:10):
be kind of funny, but also thathe kind of has a broader point,
which is that he's trying toprove that love is writing these
stories one to be kind of funny, but also that he kind of has a
broader point, which is thathe's trying to prove that love
is real.
Which great, awesome.
These are not the reasons whythe rabbit puppies nominate him.
They nominate him because theythink this is funny, and they
kind of.
Two reasons here.
One, they're trying to nominateauthors in categories that will
(29:33):
take up the space of otherauthors.
Right, if we can get ChuckTingle in the best short story
category, then that takes onemore space away from a woman or
a person of color.
Author right.
And secondly, if we can getChuck Tingle to win the award,
then we will also kind of theHugos will look like they have
(29:55):
egg on their face, right Like haha, what, what?
What happened to the great HugoAwards that they're nominating
and awarding?
Space Butt Raptor.
Don (30:03):
Invasion, this award and how it's been disgraced, by
being awarded to, to, to a womanof all things, that we want to
completely undermine thelegitimacy of the award.
Ron (30:19):
Exactly.
That's somehow going to fixwhatever.
If we can't have it, nobody canDon.
Don (30:24):
Okay.
Ron (30:25):
Um, so this is, this is yeah, as you're, as you're
pointing out, it's ridiculous,right?
And and?
And I see some flaws in thelogic.
Do you want to point them outor are they self-evident?
Don (30:37):
And we hold these truths to be self-evident.
Ron (30:41):
So in 2016, ram and Puppies , you know, try to push a lot of
these and they have the numbersbehind this time to kind of get
a lot of these nominees uh intothe, into these categories, um,
a lot of the authors who werenominated as a, as, as part of
this political kind of statementor movement by the the puppies,
they choose to just uh, bow out, uh, so they're like okay, you
(31:04):
know, I, I realize I'm part ofthis thing.
I don't want to be affiliatedwith, I'm just gonna reject my
nomination and then.
Don (31:10):
So they weren't puppies, they, they were, they were.
Ron (31:18):
So, yeah, not all the nominees were like puppy people.
In fact, like very few of thepuppies are actually authors
themselves.
They're really just sort oflike online crybabies and
weirdos, right?
Um, uh uh Beal himself.
Uh was uh an author and aneditor editor and he did try to
get a lot of his work on theselists and frequently he did
manage to make it through thenomination process and he was a
(31:40):
potential award winner and we'llget back uh.
What he did uh was, uh he wrotea new story, um, about the
whole situation uh, which uh iscalled slammed in the butt by my
(32:01):
Hugo award nomination.
Um and uh, and here's a.
Here's a short passage fromthat.
Can I read that?
Oh, yeah, please, okay, allright, uh, from Chuck Tingles,
slammed in the butt by my Hugoaward nomination.
Wait, I tell the prestigiousnomination, let me be the one
who takes care of you tonight.
I want to show my thanks forthis incredible, handsome award.
(32:21):
I look up at him and suddenlyfind myself overwhelmed by love
and attraction to this awesomenomination.
Sure, he's penetrating deepwithin my throat, but he's also
penetrating my heart.
But he also includes this, whichyou know once we're done with
the hot and heavy stuff.
You know there is a point tothis and Tingle writes there's
(32:47):
lots of bucks out there whothink the soul of books is just
inside books, don't know thatreal love comes from proving
books are real for all who kissthat's inside and outside of
books goofball and uh I thinkwhat he's kind of trying to say
here, right, is like uh, the thething that rabid puppies kept
(33:09):
bringing up is like oh, peopleare just nominating and awarding
these books because they thinkit's important to get
representation.
This representation is thisoutward kind of thing, and that
what's actually in the booksdoesn't matter and that the
books can't actually be goodbecause authors we don't like
they're just writing to get thishandout award and therefore the
(33:31):
quality of the writing must bebad.
And this is the thing you hearfrom a lot of these kinds of
people, even today.
Right, oh, you know they can'twrite a, an actually good video
game that has a gay protagonist,because they're just doing it
to make pat themselves on theback, right, and that's contrary
to what Tingle is saying here.
Right, it's like no, these it.
It's like, no, people aren'tgetting these awards just
(33:53):
because they check a certain box.
It's because the fiction theywrite is actually pretty good.
They actually write goodfiction.
It is both things, and that, ofcourse, makes them mad.
It makes the puppy-type peoplemad, because that's kind of key
to their argument.
Their argument is like oh, thisis actually bad literature, but
(34:15):
, um, that's not true.
That it's an excuse they make inorder to they don't have to
call themselves racist ormisogynistic or something.
Don (34:23):
Right, well, and and and, just that idea that that a new
voice in the space somehow takesup space that used to belong to
the, the traditionallyrecognized, recognized voices.
Like that's the space is huge,like more.
More voices in the spacedoesn't mean that your voice has
less space to exist in.
It just means that there's morevoices around you right,
(34:44):
exactly right, like there's.
Ron (34:46):
I don't you know if I, if you walk through barnes and
noble, I don't think you'regoing to see uh, any fewer books
about colonizing mars orspaceships fighting in the
orion's belt, or you know likethose things still exist, right,
like uh, um, there's just likeother stuff.
Don (35:02):
They are sitting beside them now right, and and this is
an an unusual genre for me to betalking about I don don't read
science fiction much um ever.
Ron (35:13):
I used to read more of it than I do now I do.
I do really like sciencefiction.
Don (35:18):
Um, I haven't read to something in a while but of all
the books that I have read, likeeven the ones we were talking
about earlier, I don't normallyresearch the authors and no, no
yeah.
And even when you know I'vebeen, I've been buying books
online now and and you know Iread them on my e-reader rather
than in in, so I don't even getthe picture on the back of the
book.
So it never occurs to me to eventhink about what.
(35:41):
What race an author is that?
That that I'm reading Like itdoesn't?
It has no effect on the waythat I read a story.
The way that I read a story.
Ron (35:49):
No, I agree, Like I don't think I've ever chosen a book,
because of the author.
I mean you develop yourfavorite authors and you're like
oh, I'll read anything they putout, Right.
That always happens.
But I mean, yeah, you look at abook, you read the synopsis,
like oh, that's sick, Right.
And then you put it back no,that's what they're.
Don (36:11):
That's what I understand about the.
What the puppies are areconcerned with is judge the book
based on the book.
Why are we judging the bookbased on the?
Who the author is or was, andand that's so when?
And lucky is that her name.
One, the 2014 Hugo.
Like um, I imagine the peoplethat voted for it read it right,
(36:35):
like they didn't just vote onit.
So is is it?
I guess my question is is itthe concern of the puppies that
those votes were cast Notbecause someone read the book
and thought it was quality work,but just because she was the?
Was she the only womannominated?
So we were just feeling sorryfor the woman and giving her the
(36:59):
the consolation prize.
That's what they thought.
I don't, I don't.
I mean, I know you're not one,so you can't.
Ron (37:01):
I'm trying, I'm really trying to put myself in the
shoes here, don Um, but uh, Idon't, I don't know the
specifics about like that, theHugo, uh, like the 2014 Hugo,
and if there were other nomineesand stuff like that, I do have.
Like um.
I managed to get like, in theirown words, kind of there was a
statement, um, that the, thepuppies put out in their own
(37:24):
words, they said, um, they, theywere accusing the Hugo awards
of quote giving awards on thebasis of political correctness
and favoring authors and artistswho aren't straight, white and
male.
So, again, it's this idea ofunfairness, right, like um.
And this is also like, reallyinteresting to me because I
think this is just like a reallygood flashpoint, for you know,
(37:45):
something we're seeing inAmerica we've seen for the last
decade, I guess really now,we've seen for the last decade,
I guess really now um is thisevery time a conversation arises
about, hey, there might be someserious inequalities worth
looking at in American society,culture, film, whatever, right,
the, suddenly the group ofpeople who are not the
(38:07):
marginalized people suddenlyhave to rise up and defend.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
No, it's actually fine.
It's actually fine.
It's not that big a deal deal,and I don't super know where
that comes from.
Um, and they use these verylike, uh, like, as you've been
pointing out, don very thinarguments right about sort of
purity and fairness to to kindof like argue their point.
(38:29):
And I think it's just sort oflike, particularly when we're
talking about, like, a certaingroup of people who have like
sort of been in power, whetherthey perceived that power or not
, or been privileged in some way.
As soon as you tell them likehey, you may have been
privileged and it might be worthexpanding those privileges to
other people, I think they feelattacked because they feel like
(38:50):
that means I'm, I'm going tohave, uh, uh, the privilege.
Less privilege Right Like oh I'mgoing to lose some of my power.
Don (38:59):
Right.
And some of my importance whichis only true if you imagine
privilege as a zero sum game,right which?
In which case you're admittingthat you have more privilege
than another group and you don'twant to more privileged than
another group and you don't wantto.
You don't want that disparityto change, right you?
understand how much that wouldsuck to not have the privilege
because you're like oh, wow,right, and so it sucks for you
(39:21):
that you don't have it, but Iyou're not taking it from me,
but that's.
I think that's part of the, thefrustration that I feel in the
last decade and or plus that youknow, I think I mean decade
plus that has been super in theforefront of the media
discussion and the ongoingdiscussion in America.
But obviously it goes back wayfarther than that.
But just that idea that I don'twant someone else to have the
(39:47):
privileges that I have doesn'tmean that we're taking those
privileges away from you.
It just means that we're we'reexpanding them to other other
groups, other people, other.
So everyone should have anequal opportunity and equal on
equal footing.
It doesn't mean that you'velost footing.
It just means that we're givingother people there's more room
in the under the tent.
Ron (40:06):
Right.
But I do think there is, um, itis true, and I think, whether
they consciously identify thisor not, it does mean there'll be
more competition, right, like alot of things that like, let's
say, you're trying to get a job,right, I just have to compete
against this group of people,and if I suddenly now, you know,
open this job up to three otherclasses of people, whoa, now I
(40:28):
got to be even better than Ialready thought I was Right, and
so there is a sort of likeselfish motivation, I think
there, and I think that's partof the sad puppy thing, which is
wait, wait.
By token of being white and male, I was way more likely to get
this award for my work, and nowI now have to compete against
50% of the population, right?
(40:51):
So I do think there's thatelement to it.
But it does become interestingwhen it's like what?
Even people who aren't, um, uh,even people who aren't like
writers or or even affected bythis award, how they kind of
glom onto this right.
Like, oh, I identify as a memberof this group, even though I
technically am not.
(41:12):
I will never be a sci-fi orfantasy writer.
But God, do I need to defend myfellow sci-fi and fantasy
authors from this atrociousattack by the Hugo Awards?
So, anyways, chuck Tingle isyou know, he writes this story.
He's using it to kind oflampoon uh the the puppies.
He kind of goes and gives aseries of uh interviews about
(41:33):
this where he says, like he doesnot um uh associate with the
the puppies and their and theirweird project.
He also registers a website, um, he registers uh
rabidpuppiescom.
Don (41:48):
Chuck.
Ron (41:48):
Tingle does yeah, yeah, yeah.
So anytime someone goes thereright, he puts a.
If you go to the website, it'sjust a giant picture of
shirtless Channing Tatum lookingpretty fly and he has this
message written on.
He says hello, my name is ChuckTingle, world's greatest author
(42:09):
.
Sometimes devil men are so busyplanning scoundrel attacks they
forget to register importantwebsite names.
This is good because it makesit easy for buds who know love
is real to prove love.
Please understand.
This is a.
This website is to take darkmagic and replace with real love
for all who kiss the sky.
Um and uh, yeah, just kind oflike, continues to sort of troll
(42:35):
the these, these, these puppypeople.
Uh, in the same way they werekind of trying to troll the um,
uh, uh, awards um.
He uses this opportunity, uh,tingle uses this opportunity, um
to support um, a, a foundationfor online harassment.
Uh, uh, victims, um, uh.
(42:57):
That was started by zoe quinn.
Is the name zoe quinn familiarto you?
no zoe quinn was like at thesame time oh man, this is so
stupid, but do you?
Don (43:05):
remember gamergate.
Ron (43:06):
Do you remember this word?
I've heard that word.
Okay, around the same time,gamergate happening, which was
like a similar series ofalt-right attacks against women
in the video game industry,instead of like the sci-fi and
fantasy industry.
And Zoe Quinn was kind of likethe first person they targeted.
She was a video game developerand they made all sorts of gross
accusations about how she'dmanaged to publish her video
(43:28):
game and blah, blah, blah.
All of this bunch of of uhbunch of lies and things like
that.
But anyways, uh chuck uses thisan opportunity to draw
attention to her foundation, um.
She uh single.
Also drew attention to um uh,another a black woman author's
uh book, the fifth season, whichwas nominated for best novel uh
(43:50):
that year, 2016,.
Um uh by NK Jemisin, and uhalso drew eyes and money towards
a, a crowdfunding campaign foruh LGBTQ health resources, and
kind of just like took hismoment in the in the in the
spotlight here, to highlight alot of like really cool causes
(44:10):
and kind of take the impetusaway from the puppies um and uh
in an interview.
I found this interesting.
People were asking him like youknow he starts.
People are like hey, chuck,tingle, are you like for real,
what's going on here?
You talk weird, you write weird, your titles are absurd.
Um, are you like trolling us orlike is there a real point to
(44:31):
all this?
Um, and uh, someone asked himlike why do you?
Why do you write gay erotica?
And he responded more, are youlike trolling us?
Or like, is there a real pointto all this?
And someone asked him like whydo you write gay erotica?
And he responded more importantreason to write tinglers, which
is what he calls his fiction,is to prove that love is real
for all who kiss.
Saw a man on TV talking aboutbuds kissing buds and he said oh
, what's gonna happen if we letbuds kiss buds?
(44:52):
What's next?
Are they going to kiss planestoo?
So I thought, yes, all love isreal.
We should kiss planes becausethey are handsome to seeing
(45:13):
online.
Which is like these slipperyslope arguments of like whoa,
what?
What if my kid can identify asa woman?
Uh, does that mean he's goingto identify as a helicopter?
And just say, yes, yeah, that'sfine, like who cares?
Let's see if anyone identifiesas a helicopter and then we'll
deal with it.
And also, cool, helicopters aresick.
I kind of just really love thisenergy, uh, that he's uh
(45:34):
putting out.
So you're probably wonderingwhere does this all go?
Right, like uh, you know who.
Who wins?
Don (45:40):
Hey Ron, where does this all go?
Who wins?
Ron (45:45):
Uh, the results Did Chuck win the, the, the Hugo and in
all the categories where therabid puppies had nominees
nominated, none of theirnominees won those awards In
(46:07):
some categories.
So another thing you can votefor at the Hugo Awards is you
can just say no award.
If you think none of thenominees are worthy of the award
.
You can just vote no award.
And in almost all of thecategories where those nominee
slots had all been occupied byrabid puppies uh, you know works
, uh, that they had kind ofpromoted um.
(46:27):
More people just selected noaward than any of their books,
so it was just like a lot ofcategories had no award given.
Um nk jemisin uh for her um,her book Season did win the Hugo
that year, so they were nottriumphant in stifling the award
(46:49):
of the Hugo to a black womanauthor, vox Dei, the very cool
dweeb in charge of these puppies.
He had nominated himself besteditor and he had lost to a
woman, sheila Gibbert, and hehad also nominated himself for
best related work because he hadwritten a essay called SJW's
(47:13):
Always Lie, and more people saidno award given to that category
than than him.
So he didn't win anything.
None of their nominees wonanything.
Um and uh, all was right andwell and uh, um Chuck did not
win his uh award.
Um, instead, uh he, he was umuh beat out by a, a black female
(47:38):
author also.
Um, so um all, um, all was uh,well and right in 2017, the year
that we attended.
Apparently.
I wasn't aware at the time, butapparently the rabbit puppies
will still.
We're still there and they aretrying their games again, and
they tried um nominating anotherweird erotic author who may
have been made up, may have, mayhave been a plant by one of
them, um, and to the same result, none of of it Like a ficus.
Don (48:02):
Yes, yeah.
Ron (48:04):
A racist ficus was nominated.
Don (48:07):
That sounds like something Chuck Tingle would turn into A
tingler.
Yes, exactly.
Ron (48:12):
So and then basically at the end of 2017, the whole
voting block kind of vanished,disappeared.
It was recommended, or it wassuggested at one point by
someone studying this, thatthere was never more than like
60 people um in in this block atthe end of 2017, and so it's
kind of ceased since then.
The hugos kind of tidied uptheir um, uh, their award voting
(48:32):
process so that blocks ofpeople could be less sort of
manipulative and, uh, they'vekind of turned on ever since
then and, um, um, I did somequick research to be like, okay,
you know, in 2014 people weresaying, uh, there's only less
than 2%, um, uh, black authorsbeing published.
Uh, or less than 2% of thesci-fi fantasy works being
(48:53):
published were by black authors.
And has that changed much nowthat we're in 2024.
And it has actually.
That number has gone up fairlysignificantly.
Especially, many more women arebeing published than ever before
in science fiction and fantasy.
I looked at some numbers and in2020 was the most recent I
(49:15):
could find, but it was like morethan 50% of the um fantasy
books being published were bywomen.
About 47% of the sciencefiction books being published
were by women and, um, this islike led to a kind of uh, um, a
blooming of like sort of newgenres within the genre.
Like Afrofuturism has been areally big kind of uh, new genre
(49:39):
, micro genre within sciencefiction ever since then, kind of
spurred by things like blackpanther movie and stuff like
that, and so it's, uh, you know,in in some ways, uh, things are
definitely looking up, at leastin the sci-fi, fantasy world
the the data point that I would.
Don (49:55):
I don't think we have access to and can never have,
but I.
What I wonder about is how muchsci-fi was being written by
female authors or bymarginalized groups before right
to to reach that 2% in 2014,was it because they weren't
producing it, which you know?
That's a, that's a cycle too,because if you, if there are no
(50:16):
authors published, then itdoesn't become something that
community is aware of, and thenthey don't produce and then it
looks like it's you know thatthey're outsiders to a group
that should be inclusive.
Ron (50:28):
Right, it's the argument for why it's important to have
inclusive representation.
Don (50:33):
Yeah absolutely, and it's odd to me that science fiction
of all places would be the spot.
This would happen me, thatscience fiction of all places
would be the the spot.
This would happen because, youknow, in in my short lifetime,
science fiction has been theplace where we've been able to
experiment with.
You know, the futurism of civilrights, um, you know, even
going back to we, oh, we talkedabout um enemy mine, yeah, yeah,
(51:15):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
On the, the enterprise was wasmulticultural on purpose, in
order to demonstrate a futurewhere those cultural divisions
were not as starkly held.
Um, and I think it evenpredates that too.
Like I, I haven't read it foryears and years, but the time
machine by hg wells, right, the,the morlocks live under the
(51:37):
ground and they're the this, youknow, the, the lower class
humanoid, and but then the, whatwere the other people called
the?
Ron (51:45):
elo, yeah, elo elohim um and uh.
Don (51:51):
So again, science fiction was was able to imagine the
future, and the future alwayswas a place where we could have
worked through these problems orhave experimented with options
to coming through these problems.
And, just like fantasy storiesare a place to um, to, to play
around with reality in a waythat you can't play with in in
(52:14):
the real world.
Um, like, uh, district nineeven, right, uh, it's a place
where you can say well, what ifwe did it this way?
How would things work outdifferently, right?
Ron (52:26):
Oftentimes it's a way of like packaging important
messages or observations topeople who would, sort of like,
not naturally bring themselvesinto contact with that kind of
media.
Right, so like a lot of peoplewill like.
Oh, this book has.
You know, this book's about agay romance, right?
Uh, I'm not gay so I guess Ishouldn't read it.
(52:47):
Right, but if it's a gayromance between a man and a
sentient head of broccoli, rightLike.
Don (52:54):
Oh that just sounds funny, and then you read it, and then
now you maybe now you've gleanedsomething, uh, outside of your
own lived experience right, andyou have access to, to whatever
meaning is included there, right, yeah, um, but uh, but then
(53:18):
what gets fun is you know, uh,wolfgang eiser right, that
whatever meaning you take fromthe book is actually a meaning
that the reader has vivifiedfrom the text.
So it's not, it's not something.
The author is responsible for,but it's the, it's the reader,
it's Stanley Fish too, of course.
Um, the reader response, so uh.
So then that gets all that'sgoing to weird them out, because
then, oh my gosh, the sentienthead of broccoli made me feel
things but those feelings werecoming from inside me, yeah, so
(53:38):
yeah, you just remind me realquick um we're, we're.
Ron (53:47):
we are recording this in January of 2025 and the?
Did you see Nosferatu over thebreak?
I haven't seen it yet.
No, Okay, Uh, we've seen ittwice now.
I love it, but every time I'veseen it there has been at least
one like couple, like a pair ofpeople that have left somewhere
halfway through the film and ittouches on some, you know,
themes of female sexuality.
That, I think, makes someAmerican audience members maybe
uncomfortable, but it's beenfascinating to watch, like what
(54:10):
are the things people arepulling from the text.
That is when they decide thisis not for me or I do not like
what I'm pulling from this text.
But yeah, science fiction andfantasy obviously has always
been about speculation, it'salways been about metaphor, it's
always been about examinationsof very present day trials and
(54:32):
questions, and obviously thoselike, if you want the best
answers to those questions, youshould open the question to as
many uh voices as possible.
Don (54:44):
Right.
Ron (54:44):
Because, uh, you know, we're here gathering, uh, you
know, trying to make decisions,and I, personally, I like
getting as much information as Ican before I make a decision,
and so why wouldn't I want tosee everyone's interpretation of
how this, uh, how this, how howwe can move past, uh, the, the
troubles of today and, um, andand what we need to worry about
down the road?
Don (55:04):
Well, and since, as you brought up, the there's an
association with with some ofthese people and and um more,
the far right alt right, rightthe um the um, there's always a
nostalgia, for you know, that'snot how it used to be and and I
don't like the change that I'mseeing in the world that I see,
(55:25):
because it was better before.
But obviously it usually meansbetter for me.
Ron (55:29):
Yeah.
Don (55:29):
But but those things in the past were never static either.
Ron (55:33):
Yeah.
Don (55:33):
You know and the things that that people imagine our
traditions and we can't changethat because that's the
tradition of how we do it inthis country or how we do it in
in my family or whatever, likethose traditions are are not
much more than a generation oldyes, you know, they, they.
We didn't always have turkey onthanksgiving yeah, we didn't
always have thanksgiving yeah,um, you know, it's only been a
(55:55):
little time, so the the fluidityof tradition is something that
could be embraced rather thanresisted, and and then these
things should be easier.
But other thing that I'm reallyimpressed with with the story
that you've told us so far isthe way that Chuck Tingle um
reclaimed that narrative and howhe, rather than than just
rejecting it and fighting it, heused it.
(56:17):
He found a way to very cleverlyuse it for a platform to
continue the message that he wassending in the first place, um,
and kind of co-opt it into uh.
So kudos to him for for beingable to do that.
Ron (56:30):
That's uh, that's a uh, a clever and uh, skillful move
yeah, chuck single's kind of ahero in our household and, um, I
think there's something abouthim that kind of draws us to him
, is just sort of sort of likehis sincerity about everything.
Right, like I said, we we sawhim talk.
He's since moved on from, Imean, I think he still publishes
(56:52):
his, his tinglers, but he'salso received, um, uh, uh, real
publishing deals he's actuallyworking through.
He's he's moved on to horrornow he does.
He publishes, like young adulthorror novels that are pretty
sick actually.
Um, we were, we were, uh, whenwe saw him.
He was, um, on the press tourfor his novel, camp Damascus.
Um, and he's just like a reallycool guy.
(57:14):
He liked my metal t-shirt.
He likes deaf heaven, uh, theband.
So he's got good taste in blackmetal and stuff.
So, uh, so that's cool, um, buthe's just like uh, it's nice to
see a public figure who justsort of like bold-facedly, is
saying like, hey, um, it'sperfectly fine to just like, uh,
(57:34):
that love is real and thatsounds stupid to say, but it
does seem like a weirdly uh likea political statement nowadays
is it's just fine for anyone tokind of live their life however
they want without harming anyoneelse, and uh, whether or not
that seems odd to you, itdoesn't really matter.
Don (57:52):
It's perfectly okay Like there's lots of things it
doesn't affect me.
Ron (57:55):
I see a lot of odd things.
I see people in, uh you know,with some very weird stickers on
the back of their truck and I'mall the power to them, right?
That's how I feel.
There are people who watch TVshows, that I think why the?
Hell would you watch that?
But all the power to them.
I'm glad it's out there.
Why would you watch YoungSheldon?
(58:16):
I'm not sure, but if you are,congrats, I'm glad you have
something to make you laugh atthe end of the day, and I think
we could all be a little bitmore like that.
Right, we can, we can all itdoesn't affect me.
Don (58:28):
I can, you can have an opinion about it, but you you're
welcome to keep it to yourself.
Yes, exactly, if, if, if whatsomeone is doing is is not
directly affecting you, then letthem have their decision, their
love, their yeah, love is real,don Love is real, and this
podcast is real and willcontinue to be real and we love
(58:50):
all our cannibals, uncannibals.
Ron (58:53):
Cannibals and uncannibals alike.
You're all welcome here in thistent.
Thank you guys for tuning inwith us today and we'll see you
next time on the uncannery.
Don (59:16):
Thank you.
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