July 1, 2024 • 60 mins
Feeling curious about how suffrage and martial arts intersect? Get ready to uncover the intriguing world of "suffragetu"! This episode of the Uncannery promises a wild ride from playful banter about ska music to the profound philosophy of jujitsu and its principles of nonviolent self-defense. We tackle the age-old question: can violence ever be justified? Hear diverse viewpoints as we navigate the nuanced relationship between grappling techniques and ethical self-defense.
Step back in time with us as we unravel the story of Edward William Barton-Wright and his eclectic martial art, Bartitsu, famously linked to Sherlock Holmes. Our spotlight then shifts to the remarkable Edith Garrud, the UK's first female martial arts instructor. Her pioneering efforts in teaching self-defense to women during the suffrage movement highlight how martial arts became a powerful tool against violence and police brutality. With vivid anecdotes from her legendary demonstrations and the formation of "the bodyguard," we explore the empowerment of women in their quest for voting rights.
The episode crescendos with a thoughtful examination of violence in protest movements. From the militant actions of the suffragettes to the ethical dilemmas posed by self-defense against oppressive forces, we reflect on historical and contemporary examples. With insights from feminist scholars like Judith Butler and parallels to significant movements like the American Revolution, our discussion delves into the moral complexities of activism. Join us for an eye-opening conversation that blends historical analysis with the empowering philosophy of jujitsu, leaving you with a fresh perspective on the struggle for justice and equality.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug (00:27):
Thank you, welcome to another lively episode of the
Uncannery.
I am Doug.
Ron (00:36):
I'm going first.
I'm Ron.
Doug (00:40):
And I'm Don oh, Stéphane Colin S Cure.
We're ready to go, apparently,Ladies and gentlemen, I don't
like being told we have to belively but I think you we're
lively already, that's a lot ofpressure.
Don (00:53):
Yeah, we just got here.
Doug (00:56):
Welcome to the most down-tempo episode of the
Uncannery as we completely drainour energy wells to put you to
sleep.
Don (01:04):
It's Uncannery.
Doug (01:06):
ASMR.
Don (01:08):
Thanks to our new contract with NPR radio.
Doug (01:12):
That's what we need Is.
Ron (01:14):
Ska down tempo or up tempo.
Doug (01:16):
It's a great question.
I would definitely say up tempo.
I'm thinking of all the likeupstrokes on guitar and how fast
that's coming at you.
But then I also.
I also.
Here comes another episode ofthe encounter of like second
wave ska, where it's like veryrelaxed.
Ron (01:31):
Uh a lot.
I know all about the waves ofska, so that's good.
I agree with what you said.
We'll see you.
We'll see on another episodefor that.
Doug (01:38):
We are not talking about ska today.
We are talking about a hybridof two words that become
suffragetu, which is forsuffrage, and jujitsu.
Bringing these two thingstogether, that's a portmanteau.
I'm here for you, we're herefor all of the literary terms we
can possibly bring out, and Iwant to start, as we often do,
(02:03):
with a question Is violence everthe answer?
Ron (02:07):
Oh boy.
Yes, oh quick, I'm with Don100%, yeah.
Yeah, it seems very easy to me.
Yes, violence can be an answer.
Okay, we live in the UnitedStates of America.
We are.
Don (02:24):
Ron is now standing on the couch.
Ron (02:25):
Let me take you down a little bit to a little year I
like to call 1776.
Doug (02:33):
The confidence you said that with was.
Ron (02:36):
It's just because this is a down-tempo episode I'm taking a
little while for my memorybanks to recharge.
I feel like violence isfrequently glorified as a, as a
uh, not not a uh, um, as a meansto is sometimes uh, valorous
ends, sure, uh, especially herein america.
Um.
(02:59):
So, and I'm not saying I agreewith that philosophy precisely,
but I do think there areinstances in which violence is
necessary when you know there,you know the, the, the magic of
words, the language that we canspeak, the, the ideas we can
transfer through speaking withpeople has a has a ceiling
sometimes, and sometimes you gotto get a little rowdy.
Don (03:21):
I want to say you didn't ask if it was the right answer
or a good answer, just if it wasan answer yeah.
And violence is definitely ananswer, but I you know the
application and whether or notit's the the the best decision
in any given situation is goingto depend upon the situation.
But to complicate it, I thinkthere are times when it is, and
(03:42):
I think that often it is evenwhen people are claiming to use
nonviolent means, there's a,there's a form of violence
that's attached to somenonviolent tactics.
Doug (03:52):
So you figured me out there.
I left it pretty open-ended andvague for that exact reason.
Ron (03:59):
Oh, you know you, you love violence.
Yeah, Mr Violence on theweekend.
You love violence.
Yeah, Mr Violence on theweekend.
You sign up, you take classes?
Doug (04:05):
Yeah, I do, I do partake in jujitsu which, by the way, is
translation, the gentle art.
Thank you very much.
Is that what it means?
Ron (04:14):
Yeah, the gentle art, gentle art, what language is
that?
Doug (04:17):
Um, we're going all the way back to Japanese hybridized
with um portuguese as well okaythat's like, yeah, artes suave,
like that's.
That's often what, um it goes to.
We, um, yeah, I, I also, yeah,I do partake in jujitsu.
I have the cauliflower here onone side to to mark the hobby
(04:39):
that I am a part of.
I enjoy it greatly.
But what makes jujitsu thegentle art?
The idea that your goal is tobring an opponent to the ground
as quickly as possible andsubdue them by any means
necessary.
Instead of to, I mean, I thinkof like boxing, kickboxing,
(05:04):
karate and a lot of these artforms, and they're often
primarily used as like bludgeonsomebody until they're knocked
out.
This is the case versus.
This is to pin your opponent onthe ground and take away the
ability of the opponent tostrike you with great force.
(05:26):
You're trying to close distancewith somebody, so if they
attempt to kick or punch you,you're as close to them as
humanly possible so you caneliminate their weapons from
them.
Don (05:35):
I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly.
So we're using verbs like kickand punch gently, Ding, ding,
ding point on.
Doug (05:44):
So if you're going to take , for example, a jujitsu class,
you're not going to be taughtany punches or kicks.
The goal is going to be, ifsomebody does decide to do that
to you, to maybe shoot in onlike a double leg takedown,
which is simply getting yourarms behind the person's legs,
pushing them to the ground andthen getting them into a pin to
(06:05):
where, for example, like maybeI've got an underhook under
their arm, my head is close totheir head and I've got another
arm around their head as toincapacitate them.
So if they're trying to punchor kick, I'm holding them down
versus hitting them.
Um, there's, there's, manycases of people who have used
jujitsu and their opponent has,like, not a scratch on them and
(06:27):
the opponent is submitting atthe end Uh, like the.
Ron (06:31):
Is it the opponent, or is there a referee who says, oh,
that guy is definitely done.
Uh, or is the?
Is the opponent say I'm done,I'm done?
Doug (06:44):
There's an absolutely hilarious video of of a mixed
martial artist, um, who wascalled out by somebody online
who is involved in the martialart Aikido.
The guy, of course, is justmouthing off.
Aikido is the only martial artinstant cut to the MMA fighter
(07:04):
who was just whooping on himwith like strikes and he goes.
Okay, that's the way it, justputs out his hands, it goes.
I'm done.
And I thought of thatimmediately, because it's just
so sad when somebody gets thearrogance to believe that their
martial art is the only martialart.
To answer your question, you'reactually kind of traversing
into where jujitsu has actuallybecome a sport now.
So there are matches that areheld that either are determined
(07:26):
by submitting your opponent, andthis is where we get into
chokes and arm breaks Actually,to be more specific, strangles,
because choking is theobstruction of the windpipe.
All of these things sound sogentle.
Ron (07:39):
Well, yes, like he said, it's on a scale, though right,
it is, it's gentle compared to?
Is it gentle compared to takingyour dog for a walk?
No, but is it gentle comparedto being struck by Mike Tyson,
probably.
Doug (07:53):
Very much so.
Yeah, I mean I it's.
He's a gentle giant.
You talking about Mike Tyson?
Don (08:00):
Yeah.
Doug (08:00):
He was one of the smallest heavyweights ever.
Actually he was very small incomparison to his opponents, but
so fast and powerful.
It's just unbelievable.
It's funny you bring him up.
I think of him as like one ofthe most violent fighters ever.
His method is just eliminationby all means necessary, with
bludgeoning your opponent.
Don (08:19):
So you said that jujitsu is now a sport.
Doug (08:23):
What was it before?
It's a crime, the gentle crimewell, it, um, it's, it still is,
but um always was a martial art.
So there is probably room foranother episode.
We've dipped into so manythings but there's probably room
for a whole another episode ofthe evolution of um samurai
(08:51):
martial arts into judo and thenthat becoming jujitsu.
Um, the martial art wasoriginally focused, going all
the way back to um, the samuraiage, in how do you incapacitate
opponents who have fallen off oftheir horse and are also in
armor?
Now, if you think about samuraiarmor, we're not looking at
plate mail like you would inEurope.
This is like a lighter form ofarmor.
But this is you cannot punchsomebody through samurai armor.
(09:13):
That's generally like anaccepted rule.
So they had to come up with armbreaks, chokes and
incapacitations that relied onthrows to the ground and then
incapacitating.
Afterwards that art form becamejudo, which became the national
police force martial art, andthen the focus specifically on
the techniques that start tooccur after you've hit the
(09:34):
ground.
That's jujitsu right there.
But what's interesting is likewe're in an era right now that
just grappling in general isgrappling, because when I take
jujitsu classes we borrow fromfolk style wrestling, sambo,
judo, jujitsu from differentportions of the world catch
wrestling.
Like there.
There are so many differentgrappling arts that I think
(09:54):
eventually we're going to hit apoint that it's just going to be
called grappling because thereit's so liberally borrowed from.
But then you see that, like,judo is an Olympic sport but
jujitsu we're still working onmaking it an olympic sport.
Um, I'm sorry, I didn't answeryour question yet, did I?
Don (10:10):
no, that's okay, I was gonna follow up, so good um.
Doug (10:13):
So martial art and sport sport became.
We now see that there aretournaments that are hosted all
through the world, that a lot ofthem are based on points where,
like, you'll positionallymaneuver, where you're past
somebody's legs and you take theposition I described earlier,
where you get an underhook underthe arm and head and place your
(10:36):
head to the side toincapacitate.
Ron (10:38):
What was that, Doug?
You want to?
Doug (10:39):
try that again, doug, please don't bully me right now.
Ron (10:44):
If you don't say this, right, we're replacing you with
another guy who's nice, there'sa d.
Don (10:49):
You better be careful, ron.
He's gonna be gentle on you.
He's gonna gently throw you tothe ground.
Dan dan, get over here that'sright.
Doug (11:00):
So, um, yeah, getting into these positions that
essentially will score youpoints for different pins, but
then always, generally, you canend the match by putting to
somebody in a position in whichthey are being strangled or in a
position for a leg or an armbreak.
This forces your opponent totap out or to submit to you Like
(11:23):
if you break their leg, they totap out, or to submit to you
Like if you break their leg,they'll tap out.
They're doing that far beforethat happens.
Hopefully.
Does this mean that there aresome people who have giant egos
that do not want to tap out?
I have seen this happen before,where people do decide that
they're not going to tap out,and I've seen arms and legs
broken, but generally thematches are decided by your
(11:44):
opponent realizing I've beencaught in the game to tap out,
and I've seen arms and legsbroken, but generally the
matches are decided by youropponent realizing I've been
caught in the game, I tap out, Isubmit to this person and then
they win the match.
Don (11:53):
So prior to being a sport, though.
So if we go back to, toImperial Japan, what was the
goal?
I think that was Ron's question, like, what's the?
So I'm samurai warrior andknock my opponent off the horse,
but I want to be gentle withthe opponent and what's my goal?
Just to be gentle until he'stoo tired to do something else
(12:14):
all right, you want to back meinto a corner?
I'll fight right out of thisI'll show you, gentle yeah, so
no, very no, there is nosubmission.
Doug (12:26):
Excuse me submission in that your goal is to break the
person's leg or to put them tosleep with a strangle because
you do not want them to pick uptheir weapon again, or you do
not want them to get up period,and so putting the person out or
incompetent, you know what.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
(12:48):
See y'all later.
Ron (12:51):
We're going to try again next week with a different topic
, folks.
Don (12:53):
Until then.
Doug (12:55):
One with fewer syllables.
You were right.
This is down tempo.
Ron (12:58):
I can barely punch, you got suffragette why can't you get
this one?
Doug (13:01):
It's just too difficult, no-transcript in which they
(13:35):
can't hurt you.
That's when it starts totransition into the gentle art
from there okay, so any otherquestions about history of?
Don (13:43):
jujitsu, we've really gone deep here.
What's the definition of gentle?
Yeah, well, so.
Ron (13:49):
I guess, like jujitsu as we recognize it today.
When does this become?
When is this name applied tothis martial art?
Is this a relatively recentmartial art?
Is this yeah, Because at leastin my mind, I feel like I've
only known about jujitsu for thelast like 10 years or so I feel
like it's blown up here.
Doug (14:09):
Yeah, in america yeah, in america I'm gonna say that ufc
one really changes things.
Which believes 1993 hoistgracie famously part of the
gracie family trains in uh,jujitsu goes in and that
tournament was UFC is verydifferent now and that generally
there's kind of a fightingstyle that people kind of
(14:30):
nondescriptly call mixed martialarts, which is a combination of
you know some wrestling, youknow some boxing, you know some
kickboxing and you know somejujitsu and that's that's what
you need in the cage.
But back in the wild west daysof UFC one, you're having people
come in and it's like we had asumo wrestler versus a French
Savate kickboxer, you know, andit's like who's going to win
(14:51):
that fight.
And then the initial days thestyle that was winning over and
over and over again was jujitsu.
Like the jujitsu fighter wouldgo in and just clean house.
So Hoyce Gracie won the firsttournament, went against three
different opponent, is eitherthree or four different
opponents and submits everysingle one of them without
having to really strike them.
Like that's generally like the,the way that that was sold to
(15:14):
America, and so slowly butsurely that's kind of grown the
sport of jujitsu, um, and themartial art as well, and I guess
the distinction would be.
The sport is, if it's likewithin competition and their
rules surrounding it, versuswithin the martial art, it's
simply the art of self-defenseor offensive, if, if, if need be
(15:34):
, but generally for self-defensepurposes, yeah, so why are we
talking about this?
Well, um, you asked the questionhow does it become this?
Well, in the UK, um, in theearly 1900s so we're looking at
late 1800s, early 1900s Um,there are people from Japan who
are basically exporting jujitsuand judo, like they've, they've
(15:57):
brought that to different partsof the world and they're leaving
and going different places.
Um, the Gracie's that I justdiscussed.
There is, uh, mitsuo Maeda goesto Brazil and shares this, and
that's how we get this family of, of of people who have trained
that now are kind of the mostfamous name in jujitsu.
Like that's how that happened.
(16:18):
But in the UK, um, there was aguy that I'm going to mention in
just a moment that trained ahusband and wife, and it leads
to this historical moment inwhich women were able to defend
themselves against policebrutality, and so we need to
center on a woman named EdithGarrod.
(16:41):
So Edith Garrod is a English,english born woman who pursued
physical education for women.
That was her, uh primary focus,what she wanted to do with her
life.
She meets her husband, williamGerud, who is instructing people
in boxing and uh, traditionalwrestling and this uh.
They're married followingseeing interest in each other's
(17:03):
work, and they start to developa mutual interest for martial
arts.
This is an interesting time inEngland because there is a man
by the name of.
He's got four, so you're goingto have to let me get, let me
consult my notes.
(17:23):
Edward William Barton Wright.
Have either of you heard thisname before?
Ron (17:28):
He's probably got a really good fish fry place named after
him.
Don (17:33):
Does he have a brother?
I've heard of the Wrightbrothers.
Doug (17:38):
No, no, no, no, brother here, did he fly to America?
And another episode.
If there's anything to takeaway from this episode, it's how
uncanny we are when it comes tocoming up with multiple topics.
No, this guy so the name Ishould be more respectful but he
(18:00):
founds a form of martial artscalled Bartitsu, which is the
style of martial arts that isfamous for being the style of
Sherlock Holmes in the SherlockHolmes novels.
So Sir Arthur Conan Doyle tooksome lessons from this guy and
there's a little bit of a blendof kickboxing and jujitsu and
(18:22):
wrestling and all of thesethings that actually are kind of
foundational to mixed martialarts.
Um, but he starts a stylecalled bartitsu and which
sherlock holmes started.
Ron (18:31):
Uh, ufc absolutely so wait, sherlock holmes actually fought
people.
Yeah, he did I saw violence wasthe answer.
I saw a trailer to like therobert downey jr sherlock holmes
movie and he was like boxingpeople and I was like this is
ridiculous, let's go back tobasic Sherlock Holmes.
But you're telling me in thesource material he was straight
(18:53):
up punching people Going off.
I'm sorry, robert Downey Jr andthe entire cast of that film.
Doug (18:57):
Thank you.
Ron (18:57):
Because I used my base assumption to decide not to
watch it.
Don (19:02):
Robert Downey Jr just let out a sigh of relief right now.
Ron (19:11):
He assumption to decide not to watch it.
Doug (19:12):
Robert and jenny just let out a sigh of relief.
Right now he's vindicated,absolutely, yeah, he's actually.
Yeah, I can finally pass.
What a what a responsibilitythat you've laid.
So, um, yeah, um.
So at this time he has it.
But there's a man named SadakazuUyanishi who is a practitioner,
who he is our man, who camefrom Japan to the UK and he is
(19:32):
teaching people the art ofjujitsu and some judo as well.
Only distinction is judo isgenerally going to be the throws
, jujitsu is what you do afterthey hit the ground.
So this instructor has a schoolcalled the Japanese School of
Self-Defense.
He begins to train both Edithand William Garrard because,
again, they're trying to take inas many styles of martial arts
(19:54):
as humanly possible.
They've done a little bit oftraining with Edward William
Barton Wright as well, and thisinspires Edith and her husband
to start an academy.
And by this decision to startthis academy, edith becomes the
first female martial artsinstructor in the UK and one of
(20:16):
the first, if not the first, inthe world.
There's a little bit of debateon that, but historically this
is a pretty big deal.
Don (20:23):
Her academy was to just promote the physical.
Doug (20:29):
I don't know what was her academy for she is now interest
in, uh, interested in the focusof teaching women to defend
themselves.
That's the idea.
So william is taking over themen's class.
It's very, uh, it's very splitby gender, um, at this time.
But yeah, they have a women'sclass and men's class, but edith
is the person who is in, uh, incommand of the women's class
(20:50):
and is teaching women how todefend themselves in the uk.
Ron (20:52):
So in this new academy, this is in command of the
women's class and is teachingwomen how to defend themselves
in the UK, so in this newacademy this is a mix of the
Bartitsu from Sherlock Holmesand judo.
Doug (21:00):
Sherlock Holmes is showing up.
We've got everybody.
Was there a lot of like this is?
Ron (21:07):
I kind of assume people back then.
What year are we talking?
End of the 19th century?
Doug (21:15):
So we're looking at the late 1800s, like the earliest
recorded memory of them startingto train is is like 1899 is
really where this starts out.
And then, um, I believe theyopened the academy within four
years of that starting, becauseeventually their instructor in
jujitsu leaves and then theystart the academy after that.
(21:36):
And then Don you asked whatcombination of martial arts this
is correct.
So we're looking at the primaryfocus being jiu-jitsu, because
most of jiu-jitsu, judo and thegrappling arts are based on
leverage, regardless of size Ithink my question is just like
(21:57):
why are we doing this now?
Don (21:58):
because this is late victorian period, so so
grappling and rolling andpunching, none of these things
sound very ladylike to me soright?
I'm wondering, if this is yeah,how unusual was it for there to
be an Academy focused on Edithis definitely ahead of her time
and has a specific interest inthis.
Doug (22:19):
I like I would be very interested because there's not a
tremendous amount ofinformation on William and Edith
and like their relationship,but I would like, I very much,
imagine them as a very eclecticcouple who are just obsessed
with martial arts in this era.
Imagine them as a very eclecticcouple who are just obsessed
with martial arts in this era.
But this becomes much morerelevant because women's
(22:42):
suffrage in the UK is nowsomething that has become a hot
topic and there's a group ofwomen who, of course, want the
vote.
And so Edith starts putting ondemonstrations in both music
halls and theater halls, inwhich she is showing women how
they can defend themselves.
(23:03):
League.
She becomes politicallyactivated and is like we need to
start defending these women whoare pursuing the vote, because
there are many cases of policeopenly attacking them, like when
they have demonstrations, whenthey have speeches, they're
passing out literature, any ofthese things.
(23:24):
There have been instances ofpolicemen essentially not just
breaking up these gatherings,but there's accounts of sexual
assault.
There's accounts of women whohave died in the streets for
even bringing this up, and Edithnotices this and says you know,
I don't think this is exactlyright.
So I would like to train someof these women how to defend
(23:46):
themselves.
And this is where this startsto kind of cross over.
Don (23:49):
Are they breaking the?
Doug (23:50):
law.
Don (23:51):
No.
Doug (23:52):
The women they're able to speak.
Don (23:55):
So then what?
Why would the police even beinvolved?
Doug (23:58):
Well, I think we have to get into the sociopolitical
sphere here and start to talkabout um, why would any of them
not want them to have the vote?
Don (24:10):
Although, now that I think about it, they didn't have the
right to speak openly againstthe government.
Doug (24:18):
See, there it is.
I was going back to Ron 1776 atthe beginning of this.
This is the privilege ofAmerica speaking through me.
I was so confident too.
Ron (24:27):
I'm like, absolutely, what part of the world doesn't have
that right, because we like tothink the English are you know,
peers, but really they're not.
Doug (24:34):
Yeah, the pawn scum really we just dropped off in the uk
significantly sorry out therelisteners, I still love you.
They know what they're feeling.
Yeah, uh, yeah, don do you wantto elaborate?
Don (24:47):
because freedom of speech wasn't actually uh codified in
statute until 1998 in the uk, um, as a human right, though, uh,
as part of the uh the movementfor that.
So prior to that they wouldhave been protected under common
law, but but it doesn't enjoythe same.
It's not like our firstamendment under common law,
which is where, um, like, if youheard of speaker's corner in
(25:09):
Hyde Park, so there was specificplaces.
So Hyde Park in London isSpeaker's Corner, but there were
other parks that had, like aSpeaker's Corner, like that was
the spot you could go and make aspeech, but you had to be just
in that one little corner of thepark.
So the idea was that if youdidn't want to hear people
speaking you know controversialtopics then you just don't go to
(25:31):
that corner of the park.
Ron (25:32):
I don't want to hear them talking about fairies and
toadstools.
Don (25:37):
And if you wanted to be heard at Hyde Park, you would
bring a soapbox to stand on sopeople could see you, which is
why people get up on theirsoapbox to make it.
Doug (25:46):
And now we have it.
Yeah.
Don (25:47):
Absolutely.
But so these suffragettes wouldhave been breaking the law.
So why wouldn't the police haveevery right to come in and
enforce the law and keep thepublic safe?
Doug (25:55):
So we're talking about dissenters now, and they're the
type that I like they shouldhave gone home, thank you.
Ron (26:02):
Violence is never the answer.
That's why I asked.
Doug (26:05):
Have a great day everybody .
Yeah, that's so.
That's what we're looking at.
So that's what we're looking at.
So, yeah, this actually givesit new meaning, because Garrett
joining the Women's FreedomLeague is a far more radical
action, then because herdemonstrations, and now this is
pretty fun.
Now I'm excited for my owntopic, narcissistically.
Ron (26:29):
I was just doing it for the money.
Doug (26:33):
A whole new world.
Yeah, she would have herhusband dress up as a police
officer and she woulddemonstrate the different moves
that these women could use todefend themselves and invite
women who were part of theaudience to her dojo in order to
train.
(26:53):
And there is a big detail thatI've left out of.
Edith Garrett is four feet 11tall.
Legally, police had to be five10.
At the time.
You were not even consideredfor the force unless you were
five 10.
So her husband also being five10, she was able to throw this
(27:13):
guy around on stage and you canimagine the visual of seeing
somebody so small, um able to,you know, flip and throw this
guy all the way to Timbuktu isgoing to be absolutely
incredible, um, and it's goingto persuade a lot of people to
uh, hey, I want to learn some ofthis At I would.
Don (27:31):
So, just just so I have the timeline clear is edith and her
husband learn baru ritsu andjiu-jitsu from anything they can
get their hands on, anygrappling art?
Ron (27:46):
gentle grappling art, um.
Don (27:48):
but then they start an academy that's designed to teach
women how to defend themselves,just because they're in the
public.
And then, at a later point, shebecomes interested in the
suffrage movement and wellteaching anyone because,
remember, William is teachingmen as well.
Doug (28:06):
But I think that Edith's passion had always been teaching
women martial arts, and I thinknow I'm going to speak for
Edith.
But I generally find this is acommon view in the community of
martial arts that the idea oftraining martial arts is to give
you the feeling of safety andempowerment that you get when
you do train these things, and Iwould imagine that that was
(28:26):
probably where it started.
But then, seeing that officersare assaulting women in the
streets, we have women dying forthe cause.
Essentially, I think thatprobably activated her a little
bit more to where it was like.
Now I've got a purpose for thisand I want to invite women and
even more women into the dojo,because she's not doing
demonstrations before she joinsthe party.
Don (28:47):
Is this a good idea?
Doug (28:48):
Yeah, baby, I love it, I love it.
Ron (28:54):
Give them all the empowerment, right especially I
guess it's a good idea,depending uh, dependent, on how
it resolves, or are thereresults from this right is it?
Is it a fun kind of empowerment, like you too can throw around
a cop, or do they do it becauseif they start throwing around
the cops then I'm like, yeah,that then it was worth it,
(29:15):
unless the cops kill them allwith guns.
Doug (29:18):
I don't know.
Yeah, so we're getting there.
Uh, I wouldn't do that, so wedon't worry about that.
Thank you so much for clearingthat up.
It's so important.
So, um, she does have alegendary performance in may of
1909, which was organized by thewomen's social and political
union.
Which would you mind if Iabbreviate that for the rest of
(29:39):
the podcast as the wspu?
Ron (29:41):
yeah, that sounds great, okay I thought you're gonna say
they dropped off a package forme earlier.
Doug (29:45):
that's good.
Did it throw you aroundimmediately take, Take your bag,
that's right.
So she gives a performance inwhich she invites volunteers and
says would anybody like ademonstration?
Does anybody think that theycan withstand my might?
And she kind of gets rowdyabout this.
A few people go up on stage,throws them around and there's
(30:07):
an officer who walks in and saysabsolutely not, there's nothing
that you can do to harm me.
Don (30:14):
And of course he comes in as like a participant in the
exhibition.
Ron (30:17):
Or is he dressed in his officer?
Don (30:19):
johnnies, or whatever they call it, or is he there to break
up this illegal gathering?
Doug (30:22):
So we don't have details on that.
I could almost imagine that itprobably would be initially to
like let's break this thing up,but then sees that it's this
moment of let's see what you cando, because I'm imagining yeah,
let's script.
Ron (30:36):
Write this out, because I this guy, first off, he's got
big side burns.
Yeah, he's probably got thatattached into like a lemony
mustache over his very much.
Don (30:44):
So he's got the tall hat.
Ron (30:46):
He's swinging a baton.
He says all right now, ladies,time to go home.
Go home and scrub the floorsI'm imagining oi comes out first
always.
Don (30:58):
Oi is always what we're gonna hear before anything.
Doug (31:01):
um, but he, you know, heckles, uh edith.
She invites him onto the stageand shoulder throws him within
five seconds of him trying to.
Um, hit her with club Like itgoes for the club hit.
She ducks under it, grabs himunderneath the arm and shoulder
throws him and incapacitates himimmediately.
And then the queen song yeah,Immediately.
(31:21):
So, through this demonstration,emmeline Pankhurst, who is the
leader of the WSPU, askedGarrett to train about 30 women,
which become known and the mostunoriginal name as the
bodyguard that's cool that works.
Ron (31:43):
You like it.
It's simple and it works yeahabsolutely the bodyguard.
Doug (31:47):
The bodyguard, yeah.
So they bring them in and sayswould you train some of these
women Because we're havingincreased issues?
With every time that I speak,I'm being either ushered out, we
have police are committingviolence at our events and we
need to be able to defendourselves.
Don (32:06):
So, so please will you train these women how to be
violent, Because when I doillegal things, the police are
violently trying to stop me.
That's right.
Why is that a good idea?
Doug (32:19):
Because when an idea is powerful enough and justified
enough, when we finally see thatmaybe the law is wrong, it
might be time to take action.
In this case, and this is oneof those times.
Emmeline Pankhurst says I seethis woman, four feet 11 tall,
throwing these guys around.
I see an opportunity for womento be able to express themselves
(32:42):
politically.
Maybe she's the one that cantake us into the realm of being
able to defend ourselves,because it's not like they're
going out and saying like let'sjust kill the cops, let's submit
all the cops.
Don (32:54):
She had her husband dress up like a cop, Like that's
that's the message.
That's explicitly being sold tothe potential client students
is hey look what you can do topolice officer If you take my
classes like that's absolutelypromoting violence directly
against the police.
Doug (33:10):
Let's rephrase that.
Let me show you, since you'vebeen attacked by police officers
so many times, what you can doif you are attacked by a police
officer.
Ron (33:19):
You don't want this to happen to you.
Don (33:20):
Come on down to sal's couldn't she have demonstrated
that without having her husbanddress up like?
He could have dressed up, likea like, I don't know, like a
shepherd or uh all thoseshepherd.
Doug (33:32):
Oh man, I ain't going into shepherd town they won't leave
their hand going into thehighlands, yeah that's not
happening?
Don it's just getting sillyover there.
Don (33:45):
We need somebody to protect them he could dress up like
jack the ripper, that would be.
That would be maybe moresensible.
Okay, I would like that too,because that's some fun stuff
why have we not talked?
Doug (33:51):
we need to talk about Jack the Ripper.
That would be maybe moresensible.
Okay, I would like that too,because that's some fun stuff.
Why have we not talked about it?
We need to talk about Jack theRipper, right.
Ron (33:58):
I'm imagining, though.
The costuming is importantthough, because it's like Visual
symbol.
Not only the visual symbol, butI mean like the technical, like
look, grab him by his equipment.
Don (34:09):
No, no, no, no, no.
That sounds terrible.
No, no, no.
I don't mean Are you running?
Doug (34:13):
for president, you called it his Johnny earlier.
No, I meant like his belt.
Ron (34:20):
Like, hey, grab him by his belt, and then he's also got
rubber cuffs.
I don't know, they're notrubber Whatever.
Doug (34:26):
Like.
Ron (34:27):
I mean like there's a technical aspect of right Don
Lee fact-checked if rubber wasinvented.
Don (34:35):
Yeah, can you pull up an image of a?
I know that rubber was inventedbecause they did actually put
rubber on the police officer'sboots when they were searching
for Jack the Ripper in 1886.
Whoops, there you go.
Rubber was a thing.
Ron (34:47):
But like, the traction on this guy's boots are probably a
calculation when you'regrappling him and you know
what's the.
What part of his uniform can henot easily reach?
You know?
Don (34:58):
I don't know, but we're still promoting violence against
the police.
Oh, if they're unjust.
Ron (35:04):
If they're unjust If they're bad cops.
Don (35:07):
If they're enforcing the law, how is that bad?
But some laws Don.
Doug (35:11):
Yeah, not so good.
Do you want 1984?
Don (35:15):
Come on man, let's just pull it in Not all laws are good
laws, which is why thegovernment provides mechanisms
to change the law.
Ron (35:24):
Yes, to operate within the system to change the law At this
time period exclude certainmembers of the society that have
to operate under those laws.
Doug (35:35):
And so, Don, what you're saying is violence is not the
answer in this case.
Ron (35:45):
We could have done this peaceably.
Locomotive or whatever his nameis to, to, to, uh, like, sit
down with the suffragettes andlike, have a Cornish pie with
them and be like oh yeah, you'reright, I will take this into
(36:05):
consideration.
Don (36:07):
I'm just saying that it seems like it's something that
we ought to consider.
Like we're, we're looking atthis from our perspective, as
isn't it fun, right, that thethis, the, this diminutive young
woman was able to to take downthe burly police officer who
probably had an ego problem, andand, and it makes a good movie
(36:29):
scene for sure.
Ron (36:30):
Yeah, His wife, or his wife hates him.
You know like all these aretrue.
Don (36:39):
But we are saying we are promoting the idea that if you
don't like the way the law is,then just be violent until
somebody changes that law andthat.
Well, that's the question thatI'm like.
I'm struggling with a littlebit, because there is the police
are there to enforce the law.
They didn't make the law.
They didn't make the law thatsaid you can't gather and have
free speech.
They didn't make the law thatwomen can't vote.
(37:00):
They're just there to enforcethe law.
Doug (37:03):
Well, don, I know that we've had a conversation outside
of podcast about the cat andmouse act that was enforced in
england.
Um, what do you remember about?
Don (37:15):
that.
Well, it was unofficiallycalled the cat and mouse act.
Right, it was the uh, theprisoners act or the there's,
there's some more subjects tothat too.
The um, the title is more funif you call it cat and mouse.
It is, it's the prisoners.
Temporary discharge for illhealth act um and uh, it was the
(37:37):
suffragettes.
Um were the cause of it.
They, the primary um proteststhat would happen after
suffragettes were arrested, wasa hunger strike oh yeah and and
uh, um, they were force fed Um,and then that caused sympathy,
uh, from the public.
Doug (37:57):
So you like this world in which women uh have tubes forced
down their throats and areforced fed?
These are the laws that youlike so much.
Don (38:07):
Well, the law didn't say they had to have a tube pushed
down their throat.
The Cat and Mouse Act actuallywas a way to avoid that.
The Cat and Mouse Act releasedthem from prison so they could
regain their health, and thenthey would serve the rest of
their term after they had.
Doug (38:22):
But by your same logic, don't we need to show that the
law is unjust?
Don't they need to remain inprison to continue their
protests under the scrutiny ofthe eye?
Don (38:32):
Well, until this law was passed, and this law says that
they don't have to, so we arefollowing the law by releasing
them when they become ill.
Doug (38:37):
I just want to be careful as we go forward to make sure
that we look at these things inthe right light, because this is
a time of tremendous change andwe're right before World War.
I has happened and we are goingto circle back around to this.
This is something that I amgoing to want to address because
there is an argument, for thiswas just pointless violence and
this wasn't what got the firstwoman to vote in the UK.
(39:00):
But I don't want to spoil theending here, so let's keep it
ongoing.
All right, garrett agrees, I'lltrain your bodyguards.
I'll train your 30 women thatyou want to surround you, that
are capable with jujitsu, and Iwill make sure that they are
equipped to take care of you.
(39:22):
Such a public figure that theyknow that she can be political,
(39:45):
especially with her registeringwith the Women's Freedom League.
She now needs to train them insecret, because they're looking
at them as political activists.
These women, through theirtraining, have a big culminating
event known as the Battle ofGlasgow.
That demonstrates their skilland prowess in the art of
jiu-jitsu, as well as theirability to defend themselves.
The year is 1914.
Pankhurst is set to speak onher beliefs at St Andrew's Hall
(40:08):
in Glasgow, which police haveformed a perimeter inside the
hall to intimidate them.
There are 4,500 attendees atthis event stopping their feet
waiting for Pankhurst to takethe stage, and police are
prepared at any moment to kindof charge them.
The Bardi, the Bardi guards theBardi guards.
Ron (40:32):
That's that name.
Don (40:32):
I love, bodyguards.
Doug (40:36):
My pronunciation's gone today.
The bodyguard had set up a massline of bouquets of flowers to
decorate the front of the stage,which beautiful right?
Ron (40:46):
Yeah, it's cool, Women love flowers.
Thank you.
Doug (40:49):
Except they are entrenched inside with barbed wire.
Ron (40:55):
Oh, cooler Now.
The boys love it.
Women love barbed wire too.
I was waiting for that setup.
Doug (41:06):
So these are at the edge of the stage, in case the police
do decide to take this as astage and assault Emmeline, they
are going to be caught in thisbarbed wire, not so, gentle.
Now I see Don eyeing me in thecorner over there.
I hear you, don, ready tostrike.
Salivate Emmeline is 54 at thetime, so we need to protect her
right.
Emmeline actually disguisedherself.
(41:26):
She was sitting as a spectatorin the front row, looking like
she's one of the people who'sthere to listen to the speech
and, of course, in dramaticfashion, throws herself up in
probably the only area that'snot covered in the flowers I was
gonna say gets caught in thebarbed wire.
I feel like somewhere in thecourse of this podcast I had to
go on the defense.
Don (41:47):
I'm like I know Don's gonna say something.
Doug (41:50):
And so she was only able to speak for about 90 seconds
before police started pushingthrough the crowd and assaulting
some of the women.
The bodyguard gets up out oftheir seats, distinguished with
(42:12):
they don't exactly describe,from the accounts that I saw,
the types of outfits they had,but they had like a
distinguishing feature in whichthey start moving through the
crowd.
There's about 50 policeofficers towards the front of
the stage and all of thembasically being hip tossed,
thrown and flipped into tablesand chairs.
Um, it's looking a little bitmore like WWE at this point.
Um, as they're being like kindof sent off, some of the
officers who stormed the stageare caught in the barbed wire
(42:32):
and they are able to safely getEmmeline out of the St Andrews
Hall.
The reason that this issignificant is in these 30 women
defending themselves from thepolice officers.
This starts the crowd into whatis just under riot, crowd into
(42:54):
what is just under riot.
They're not breaking windows,they're not destroying property,
but the women who are in thehall are enthused to march
through the streets and it takesthe police over four hours to
basically clear the streets.
And so this event issignificant in that it's one of,
if not the loudest suffragemovement event in the history of
UK suffrage up to this point,and if it wasn't for the
(43:18):
encouragement of these women whoare successfully defending
themselves and this is where Donjumps on me here it's not for
this visual of seeing thesewomen who are able to defend
themselves, do they have theconfidence to march through the
streets for the next four tofive hours and speak out against
what is happening.
(43:39):
The thing to think about is,during the time that this
happens, we don't get the vote.
The vote actually only comesafter World War I, and this is
after Emmeline Pankhurst hasdevoted her time, cause and
energy into making sure that wesupport the war effort and is
pleasantly surprised to see thatsuffrage is on the rise
(44:00):
following World War I.
But the Don Party, as I call itnow, would argue that it is
because of the fatigue andstress of the violence of World
War I that they say you knowwhat, we don't want to get into
this again.
Let's slowly but surelydetermine the class and age of
the violence of World War I thatthey say you know what, we
don't wanna get into this again.
Let's slowly but surelydetermine the class and age of
women that can vote and we'lleventually start to extend this
outward, and as time goes on, itcontinues to build, and so the
(44:24):
debate and why I asked ifviolence is the answer is is
this just a blip in which, okay,some women learn how to defend
themselves?
It's a cool historical momentand, as, as Don said, it's very
cinematic.
Right, it's a movie moment inwhich these women learn how to
defend themselves.
Or is it just the fact that wefaced the worst, some of the
(44:45):
worst human atrocities in massviolence that we've ever seen,
and they go yeah, we'll bring inon the vote because we don't
want any more protests in in ourcountry?
And this is this is kind ofwhere our story of Edith
Garrett's influence ends, Um,and I'm curious what your takes
are on that.
Don (45:05):
Well, I want to go back to what you said, um, when you were
describing the event where, uh,where Pankhurst spoke, and and
then the, the melee broke out,and you, you said that it turned
into the, the largestsuffragette.
I don't know what you saidgathering, or so my question is
(45:29):
was it what made it so important?
Was it the number of people whowere present, or was it this
act of violence that broke outonce she began to speak?
Doug (45:38):
It was the fact that it turned from a moment in which it
was just going to be we'relistening to this woman speak on
our behalf to we're taking tothe streets and marching and
shouting the injustices.
Marching and shouting theinjustices I wonder if they
would have had the confidence todo so and be moved to that
action, if not seeing that womenwere capable of overturning
(45:59):
this authority that is in thishall.
That's the point of debate.
Ron (46:05):
And I think there's a frequently, frequently, at least
in the united states there'sthis idea that protest movements
need to be non-violent, and Ithink that largely this comes
from the sort of the educationwe've had and the particularly
the education we receiveregarding the civil rights
movement in the 1960s and how ittends to uh spotlight, uh
(46:29):
martin luther king jr and hisrole in that movement more than
other people's roles in thatmovement and uh, kind of in
order to sort of um say almostthis is how you affect change
when, uh, when you are, when apeople or a group of you know
(46:50):
people is maybe morally in theright and, like we were talking
about earlier, right, the lawain't good, right, and the
mechanisms to change the law areunjust or deaf to the, the
people who want the laws tochange.
A lot of us are told like thisis the way you do it.
You just you know you'd be areally good speaker and you
march on Washington and you'llwait a little bit, and there'll
(47:12):
wait a little bit and there'llbe some dogs and some hydrants,
but you'll get what you want.
You'll get what you want, um,but that's frequently not true.
There there are always uhviolent, uh escapades, clashes
between both parties in thesekinds of protest movements.
I think, throughout the 20thcentury, almost certainly before
that also, and I think this isclearly one of those cases,
(47:36):
right, like, think about all thelike the political upheaval in
Europe with the rise of thefascist parties, you know, at
the beginning of World War Two,right, there are frequently
clashes between fascists andanti-fascists, uh, you know,
back then, uh, in england again,I know, right, there's a,
there's a famous one that occursin london, where the people in
london were like, no, screwthese fascists.
(47:58):
And they just beat them all up.
Um, and we, I think what you'relike, you know, what we've
hinted at, is, like, what make,what makes us say, yeah, that
one was good and oh, no, thatone's bad right like when is
violence good and when isviolence bad?
right, that's kind of, I think,what makes this interesting,
because I think, uh, at least Iand probably a lot of people
(48:19):
listening to this you know, welive in a world where it's like
the, the, the idea that womencan vote.
It seems like it's been settleda long time ago, but, right,
not not that long really, if youthink about it.
Doug (48:30):
Yeah, we take it for granted.
Ron (48:31):
Yeah, we do, but it's just an obvious no-brainer.
Almost.
To us it's like oh yeah, ifsome mutton-chopped cops are
going to get between you and theright to vote, then yeah, beat
them up.
That seems to us like a verysimple one, right.
Doug (48:47):
Well, I just wonder if it would have ever happened that we
get back from world war one andthe fatigue setting in if they
didn't have the memory of, ohyeah, when we last left this
issue, there was rioting.
We had women who were trainingin martial arts that had to
defend this.
I'm now more willing to engageon changing the law about this,
(49:08):
because this has this hasalready been something that's
awful and I think, the worldbeing ready, you described it as
like, if you're able to waitaround through it, like people
will remember, then it willchange things.
Um yeah, I wonder if theyhadn't made that march.
If they had, would have gottenit immediately following world
war one.
Don (49:26):
That's the kind of the question I have and I I don't
know how I became the villain ofthis episode.
Ron (49:35):
But just because of the views you've always had and
always voiced it on.
Doug (49:40):
It's been fun.
Don (49:43):
The cause.
I think to answer your question, ron right, like how do we
decide which one is good andwhich one is not it, I think we
decide that from the perspectiveof history.
I think when it's happeningit's much harder to feel morally
secure in whatever choice we'remaking Right.
So we look back a hundred years, or you know, a hundred, 105
(50:03):
years, and we say, well, yeah,it's great because you know, the
women succeeded indemonstrating their power and
they gained a political rightthat they probably should have
had for much longer right.
They should have had all alongand it took until 1918 for us to
realize this.
But when there's contemporarythings happening I mean we just
had insurrection and violenceand riots in our own country,
(50:26):
right, and on both sides of thepolitical spectrum arguments
that the persons who wereparticipating in that violence
were wrong, right.
So we had the January 6th riotwas one and that was countered
with the Black Lives Movementunrest that was happening in
(50:49):
several cities and so, like Iwould think, those both
represent pretty extreme sidesof the political spectrum and
both of them were denounced aswrong because they were violent.
But from history's perspective,in a hundred years we probably
will have a clearer idea ofwhich one was right and which
one was wrong than we do whenwe're living in the moment of
(51:10):
when they're happening.
Doug (51:11):
Yeah yeah, Historical narrative becomes very
interesting because it's likeyou almost have to let it
marinate or become a soup, andthen you have to decide what
that looks like and like who arethe people who are decrying
present day political violence,right, like, I mean, it's always
going to be the people in power.
Ron (51:30):
It's always going to be governments who say, you know,
say any kind of violent actagainst us is bad, right, or
this isn't the way to voice it,or hey, why don't you, you know,
go through the proper channels,why don't you vote in your
local election and like, andmaybe in 15 years you can get
crushed by corporate interests,and this can not happen, right,
(51:50):
like, uh, uh, so frequently, Ithink, when we ask, like, uh,
going back to this issue ofcloudiness, right, how can we in
the moment determine whether ornot these acts of political
violence are good or bad?
I mean, I think that's a deeplykind of personal question.
It's one, it's one of thereasons why we need to be
(52:10):
educated, critical, kind of gotto figure out what those are for
yourself, right, and thenhopefully form some sort of
(52:37):
consensus with a group oflike-minded people.
We'd like to think, right, isthat too starry eyed Am I?
Am I waxing uh lyrical, uhhopeful, optimistic, maybe?
Don (52:51):
Yeah, yep, optimistic, maybe.
Yeah, yep, sorry, bud, I thinkwhat you're describing is
absolutely the ideal.
I think the the plague ofhumanity is that we never have
that luxury of judging our ownhistory until we're out of our
own history.
So, so, so the history that weare currently creating will be
(53:13):
judged by the next generationand the generation after that,
when we're long gone.
So so you just got to do yourbest in the moment, right?
And so I have opinions about,you know, the examples that I
gave, uh, but whether or not myopinions are the right opinions,
I think, will be judged inanother a hundred years or so.
The um, the thing that that thatcomplicates this question for
(53:35):
me, right?
So I know I've been asking thequestion about is it right to
use violence against the police?
The police are just enforcingthe law.
Um, the uh.
There's a uh feminist, um, uh,academic named Judith Butler,
who, um, writes about the pointsout, rather, that the, the in
(53:56):
position of the state, is also aform of violence, right, so the
police are violent as well.
So to say that, oh, thesuffragettes shouldn't have used
violence because they shouldhave followed the law, the
police application of violenceis also the law.
So you get into thesesituations where, especially
(54:17):
where marginalized groups areoppressed and have less access
to freedom or rights, what, like?
What choice do we have for themexcept to break out in violence
, like you know, when they'repainted into a corner by the
very law that we're trying tosay is like somehow the baseline
purity that shouldn't beviolated.
Yeah, correct.
Doug (54:38):
I think for me, I continually think of like, why I
get wrapped up in like.
One part of this is, of course,like the ways that I
romanticize jujitsu.
So of course, I'm going to bevery interested in the topic,
but I also think that there issimply a part of my heart that,
just when a person cannotexpress full freedom and, in
(54:59):
this case, the ability toparticipate democratically in a
society that they participate in, it just always seems to be the
correct answer to give them ashot at that right, like if they
are a contributing member, andof course, that's where it
becomes the dialogue.
Well, how are they acontributing member?
And I can hear the potential.
(55:20):
I believe you described them asmutton-chopped, the
mutton-chopped voices that areresponding back of.
You know they only have theseduties, they don't need to
participate democratically, butit resounds with me because they
especially thinking of a woman,um, occupying a society in
which she is four foot 11 andhas every right to feel
(55:43):
completely dominated, even justphysically, by all presences
around her, and she makes thedecision to empower herself and
women around her so they canfeel more than.
These are the figures that Iroot for the most and I
appreciate the most.
Ron (56:00):
There's a David and Goliath element to this story right,
this is a very, you know.
I wonder to what extent it'scultural or, you know, universal
, the kind of pull that humanshave to stories of people with
less power taking on people withmore power and winning and
succeeding or being vindicated,if not, then then through the
(56:22):
long march of history.
Right, it has that element toit as well, and that's an
element in all stories ofpolitical struggle.
Right, the state is alwaysgoing to be the Goliath.
Right, and the people who wantto change it, they're always
going to be the Davids, andthere's an appeal in that, I
(56:46):
suppose the people who oftenstruggle with with the new um,
the new issues that arise.
Don (56:56):
Um are the same ones who will support that David and
Goliath story when it's ahistorical fact.
So the American revolution, forexample is a is a classic David
and Goliath, and you know well,could we have uh, you know,
could the continental Congresshave have utilized the methods,
within the law, to you mind, ofthe parliament or King George,
and literally we were excludedfrom representation.
(57:18):
So, united States, and you knowit was throwing off the tyranny
of a government that existedthousands of miles away, but it
(57:39):
turned out good for us, right?
But this story that you'redescribing is the exact same.
You've got a group ofmarginalized people that don't
have a voice in how they aregoverned and you know the they
chose to take violent actions inorder to promote their cause
and, of course, they get the thewin.
(58:00):
But when it's happening, I'msure that it wasn't seen as a
good thing that we havesuffragettes and and other women
throwing police officers across, you know, bars and into walls
and stuff.
Doug (58:12):
Well, speaking of marginalized voices, may I
conclude with some words fromEdith Garrett.
It is the Japanese fine art ofjujitsu, or self-defense, that
has proved more than a match formere brute force and is
therefore not only a goodaccomplishment but a necessary
safeguard for the woman who hasto defend herself through life.
Physical force seems the onlything in which women have not
(58:35):
demonstrated in their equalityto men.
And whilst we are uh, we arewaiting for the evolution which
is slowly taking place andbringing about that equality, we
might as well take time by theforelock and use science,
otherwise jujitsu thank you,jujitsu yeah, it's great I
(58:55):
understand it now, doug.
I understand why you go intothat room every day and because
doug wants to vote yes yeah,it's voting time, that's what I
say, but not yet doug just waita little bit longer that's right
, but man, I mean she does soshe makes me really proud to be
a part of it, uh, to say theleast, and I think that, um, in
(59:15):
the small.
Don (59:15):
Do you still wear petticoats when you do?
Doug (59:18):
jiu-jitsu.
Uh, it's funny there are somany forms.
I do a very specific type thatlike essentially we're just
wearing like rash guards andshorts, that it's probably
closer to an mma, um.
But there are very traditionalschools like still I think it's
still the most predominant formof school that where the
Japanese gi and like kimono andso you're able to get grips on
people's lapels and pants andlike a sleeve grips and things
(59:41):
like that.
I just don't train that versionbecause I've always thought
like I'm not going to findsomebody on the street.
Ron (59:47):
I want to join the barbed wire school.
Well, we have to start that one.
Doug (59:52):
Bartitsu, Bartitsu to barbed.
Anyway, folks, thank you forlistening in to another episode
of the uncannery.
Ron (01:00:03):
Thanks, doug, that was really good.
Doug (01:00:29):
Thank you Bye.
Thank you, welcome to another lively episode of the
Uncannery.
I am Doug.
Ron (00:36):
I'm going first.
I'm Ron.
Doug (00:40):
And I'm Don oh, Stéphane Colin S Cure.
We're ready to go, apparently,Ladies and gentlemen, I don't
like being told we have to belively but I think you we're
lively already, that's a lot ofpressure.
Don (00:53):
Yeah, we just got here.
Doug (00:56):
Welcome to the most down-tempo episode of the
Uncannery as we completely drainour energy wells to put you to
sleep.
Don (01:04):
It's Uncannery.
Doug (01:06):
ASMR.
Don (01:08):
Thanks to our new contract with NPR radio.
Doug (01:12):
That's what we need Is.
Ron (01:14):
Ska down tempo or up tempo.
Doug (01:16):
It's a great question.
I would definitely say up tempo.
I'm thinking of all the likeupstrokes on guitar and how fast
that's coming at you.
But then I also.
I also.
Here comes another episode ofthe encounter of like second
wave ska, where it's like veryrelaxed.
Ron (01:31):
Uh a lot.
I know all about the waves ofska, so that's good.
I agree with what you said.
We'll see you.
We'll see on another episodefor that.
Doug (01:38):
We are not talking about ska today.
We are talking about a hybridof two words that become
suffragetu, which is forsuffrage, and jujitsu.
Bringing these two thingstogether, that's a portmanteau.
I'm here for you, we're herefor all of the literary terms we
can possibly bring out, and Iwant to start, as we often do,
(02:03):
with a question Is violence everthe answer?
Ron (02:07):
Oh boy.
Yes, oh quick, I'm with Don100%, yeah.
Yeah, it seems very easy to me.
Yes, violence can be an answer.
Okay, we live in the UnitedStates of America.
We are.
Don (02:24):
Ron is now standing on the couch.
Ron (02:25):
Let me take you down a little bit to a little year I
like to call 1776.
Doug (02:33):
The confidence you said that with was.
Ron (02:36):
It's just because this is a down-tempo episode I'm taking a
little while for my memorybanks to recharge.
I feel like violence isfrequently glorified as a, as a
uh, not not a uh, um, as a meansto is sometimes uh, valorous
ends, sure, uh, especially herein america.
Um.
(02:59):
So, and I'm not saying I agreewith that philosophy precisely,
but I do think there areinstances in which violence is
necessary when you know there,you know the, the, the magic of
words, the language that we canspeak, the, the ideas we can
transfer through speaking withpeople has a has a ceiling
sometimes, and sometimes you gotto get a little rowdy.
Don (03:21):
I want to say you didn't ask if it was the right answer
or a good answer, just if it wasan answer yeah.
And violence is definitely ananswer, but I you know the
application and whether or notit's the the the best decision
in any given situation is goingto depend upon the situation.
But to complicate it, I thinkthere are times when it is, and
(03:42):
I think that often it is evenwhen people are claiming to use
nonviolent means, there's a,there's a form of violence
that's attached to somenonviolent tactics.
Doug (03:52):
So you figured me out there.
I left it pretty open-ended andvague for that exact reason.
Ron (03:59):
Oh, you know you, you love violence.
Yeah, Mr Violence on theweekend.
You love violence.
Yeah, Mr Violence on theweekend.
You sign up, you take classes?
Doug (04:05):
Yeah, I do, I do partake in jujitsu which, by the way, is
translation, the gentle art.
Thank you very much.
Is that what it means?
Ron (04:14):
Yeah, the gentle art, gentle art, what language is
that?
Doug (04:17):
Um, we're going all the way back to Japanese hybridized
with um portuguese as well okaythat's like, yeah, artes suave,
like that's.
That's often what, um it goes to.
We, um, yeah, I, I also, yeah,I do partake in jujitsu.
I have the cauliflower here onone side to to mark the hobby
(04:39):
that I am a part of.
I enjoy it greatly.
But what makes jujitsu thegentle art?
The idea that your goal is tobring an opponent to the ground
as quickly as possible andsubdue them by any means
necessary.
Instead of to, I mean, I thinkof like boxing, kickboxing,
(05:04):
karate and a lot of these artforms, and they're often
primarily used as like bludgeonsomebody until they're knocked
out.
This is the case versus.
This is to pin your opponent onthe ground and take away the
ability of the opponent tostrike you with great force.
(05:26):
You're trying to close distancewith somebody, so if they
attempt to kick or punch you,you're as close to them as
humanly possible so you caneliminate their weapons from
them.
Don (05:35):
I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly.
So we're using verbs like kickand punch gently, Ding, ding,
ding point on.
Doug (05:44):
So if you're going to take , for example, a jujitsu class,
you're not going to be taughtany punches or kicks.
The goal is going to be, ifsomebody does decide to do that
to you, to maybe shoot in onlike a double leg takedown,
which is simply getting yourarms behind the person's legs,
pushing them to the ground andthen getting them into a pin to
(06:05):
where, for example, like maybeI've got an underhook under
their arm, my head is close totheir head and I've got another
arm around their head as toincapacitate them.
So if they're trying to punchor kick, I'm holding them down
versus hitting them.
Um, there's, there's, manycases of people who have used
jujitsu and their opponent has,like, not a scratch on them and
(06:27):
the opponent is submitting atthe end Uh, like the.
Ron (06:31):
Is it the opponent, or is there a referee who says, oh,
that guy is definitely done.
Uh, or is the?
Is the opponent say I'm done,I'm done?
Doug (06:44):
There's an absolutely hilarious video of of a mixed
martial artist, um, who wascalled out by somebody online
who is involved in the martialart Aikido.
The guy, of course, is justmouthing off.
Aikido is the only martial artinstant cut to the MMA fighter
(07:04):
who was just whooping on himwith like strikes and he goes.
Okay, that's the way it, justputs out his hands, it goes.
I'm done.
And I thought of thatimmediately, because it's just
so sad when somebody gets thearrogance to believe that their
martial art is the only martialart.
To answer your question, you'reactually kind of traversing
into where jujitsu has actuallybecome a sport now.
So there are matches that areheld that either are determined
(07:26):
by submitting your opponent, andthis is where we get into
chokes and arm breaks Actually,to be more specific, strangles,
because choking is theobstruction of the windpipe.
All of these things sound sogentle.
Ron (07:39):
Well, yes, like he said, it's on a scale, though right,
it is, it's gentle compared to?
Is it gentle compared to takingyour dog for a walk?
No, but is it gentle comparedto being struck by Mike Tyson,
probably.
Doug (07:53):
Very much so.
Yeah, I mean I it's.
He's a gentle giant.
You talking about Mike Tyson?
Don (08:00):
Yeah.
Doug (08:00):
He was one of the smallest heavyweights ever.
Actually he was very small incomparison to his opponents, but
so fast and powerful.
It's just unbelievable.
It's funny you bring him up.
I think of him as like one ofthe most violent fighters ever.
His method is just eliminationby all means necessary, with
bludgeoning your opponent.
Don (08:19):
So you said that jujitsu is now a sport.
Doug (08:23):
What was it before?
It's a crime, the gentle crimewell, it, um, it's, it still is,
but um always was a martial art.
So there is probably room foranother episode.
We've dipped into so manythings but there's probably room
for a whole another episode ofthe evolution of um samurai
(08:51):
martial arts into judo and thenthat becoming jujitsu.
Um, the martial art wasoriginally focused, going all
the way back to um, the samuraiage, in how do you incapacitate
opponents who have fallen off oftheir horse and are also in
armor?
Now, if you think about samuraiarmor, we're not looking at
plate mail like you would inEurope.
This is like a lighter form ofarmor.
But this is you cannot punchsomebody through samurai armor.
(09:13):
That's generally like anaccepted rule.
So they had to come up with armbreaks, chokes and
incapacitations that relied onthrows to the ground and then
incapacitating.
Afterwards that art form becamejudo, which became the national
police force martial art, andthen the focus specifically on
the techniques that start tooccur after you've hit the
(09:34):
ground.
That's jujitsu right there.
But what's interesting is likewe're in an era right now that
just grappling in general isgrappling, because when I take
jujitsu classes we borrow fromfolk style wrestling, sambo,
judo, jujitsu from differentportions of the world catch
wrestling.
Like there.
There are so many differentgrappling arts that I think
(09:54):
eventually we're going to hit apoint that it's just going to be
called grappling because thereit's so liberally borrowed from.
But then you see that, like,judo is an Olympic sport but
jujitsu we're still working onmaking it an olympic sport.
Um, I'm sorry, I didn't answeryour question yet, did I?
Don (10:10):
no, that's okay, I was gonna follow up, so good um.
Doug (10:13):
So martial art and sport sport became.
We now see that there aretournaments that are hosted all
through the world, that a lot ofthem are based on points where,
like, you'll positionallymaneuver, where you're past
somebody's legs and you take theposition I described earlier,
where you get an underhook underthe arm and head and place your
(10:36):
head to the side toincapacitate.
Ron (10:38):
What was that, Doug?
You want to?
Doug (10:39):
try that again, doug, please don't bully me right now.
Ron (10:44):
If you don't say this, right, we're replacing you with
another guy who's nice, there'sa d.
Don (10:49):
You better be careful, ron.
He's gonna be gentle on you.
He's gonna gently throw you tothe ground.
Dan dan, get over here that'sright.
Doug (11:00):
So, um, yeah, getting into these positions that
essentially will score youpoints for different pins, but
then always, generally, you canend the match by putting to
somebody in a position in whichthey are being strangled or in a
position for a leg or an armbreak.
This forces your opponent totap out or to submit to you Like
(11:23):
if you break their leg, they totap out, or to submit to you
Like if you break their leg,they'll tap out.
They're doing that far beforethat happens.
Hopefully.
Does this mean that there aresome people who have giant egos
that do not want to tap out?
I have seen this happen before,where people do decide that
they're not going to tap out,and I've seen arms and legs
broken, but generally thematches are decided by your
(11:44):
opponent realizing I've beencaught in the game to tap out,
and I've seen arms and legsbroken, but generally the
matches are decided by youropponent realizing I've been
caught in the game, I tap out, Isubmit to this person and then
they win the match.
Don (11:53):
So prior to being a sport, though.
So if we go back to, toImperial Japan, what was the
goal?
I think that was Ron's question, like, what's the?
So I'm samurai warrior andknock my opponent off the horse,
but I want to be gentle withthe opponent and what's my goal?
Just to be gentle until he'stoo tired to do something else
(12:14):
all right, you want to back meinto a corner?
I'll fight right out of thisI'll show you, gentle yeah, so
no, very no, there is nosubmission.
Doug (12:26):
Excuse me submission in that your goal is to break the
person's leg or to put them tosleep with a strangle because
you do not want them to pick uptheir weapon again, or you do
not want them to get up period,and so putting the person out or
incompetent, you know what.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
(12:48):
See y'all later.
Ron (12:51):
We're going to try again next week with a different topic
, folks.
Don (12:53):
Until then.
Doug (12:55):
One with fewer syllables.
You were right.
This is down tempo.
Ron (12:58):
I can barely punch, you got suffragette why can't you get
this one?
Doug (13:01):
It's just too difficult, no-transcript in which they
(13:35):
can't hurt you.
That's when it starts totransition into the gentle art
from there okay, so any otherquestions about history of?
Don (13:43):
jujitsu, we've really gone deep here.
What's the definition of gentle?
Yeah, well, so.
Ron (13:49):
I guess, like jujitsu as we recognize it today.
When does this become?
When is this name applied tothis martial art?
Is this a relatively recentmartial art?
Is this yeah, Because at leastin my mind, I feel like I've
only known about jujitsu for thelast like 10 years or so I feel
like it's blown up here.
Doug (14:09):
Yeah, in america yeah, in america I'm gonna say that ufc
one really changes things.
Which believes 1993 hoistgracie famously part of the
gracie family trains in uh,jujitsu goes in and that
tournament was UFC is verydifferent now and that generally
there's kind of a fightingstyle that people kind of
(14:30):
nondescriptly call mixed martialarts, which is a combination of
you know some wrestling, youknow some boxing, you know some
kickboxing and you know somejujitsu and that's that's what
you need in the cage.
But back in the wild west daysof UFC one, you're having people
come in and it's like we had asumo wrestler versus a French
Savate kickboxer, you know, andit's like who's going to win
(14:51):
that fight.
And then the initial days thestyle that was winning over and
over and over again was jujitsu.
Like the jujitsu fighter wouldgo in and just clean house.
So Hoyce Gracie won the firsttournament, went against three
different opponent, is eitherthree or four different
opponents and submits everysingle one of them without
having to really strike them.
Like that's generally like the,the way that that was sold to
(15:14):
America, and so slowly butsurely that's kind of grown the
sport of jujitsu, um, and themartial art as well, and I guess
the distinction would be.
The sport is, if it's likewithin competition and their
rules surrounding it, versuswithin the martial art, it's
simply the art of self-defenseor offensive, if, if, if need be
(15:34):
, but generally for self-defensepurposes, yeah, so why are we
talking about this?
Well, um, you asked the questionhow does it become this?
Well, in the UK, um, in theearly 1900s so we're looking at
late 1800s, early 1900s Um,there are people from Japan who
are basically exporting jujitsuand judo, like they've, they've
(15:57):
brought that to different partsof the world and they're leaving
and going different places.
Um, the Gracie's that I justdiscussed.
There is, uh, mitsuo Maeda goesto Brazil and shares this, and
that's how we get this family of, of of people who have trained
that now are kind of the mostfamous name in jujitsu.
Like that's how that happened.
(16:18):
But in the UK, um, there was aguy that I'm going to mention in
just a moment that trained ahusband and wife, and it leads
to this historical moment inwhich women were able to defend
themselves against policebrutality, and so we need to
center on a woman named EdithGarrod.
(16:41):
So Edith Garrod is a English,english born woman who pursued
physical education for women.
That was her, uh primary focus,what she wanted to do with her
life.
She meets her husband, williamGerud, who is instructing people
in boxing and uh, traditionalwrestling and this uh.
They're married followingseeing interest in each other's
(17:03):
work, and they start to developa mutual interest for martial
arts.
This is an interesting time inEngland because there is a man
by the name of.
He's got four, so you're goingto have to let me get, let me
consult my notes.
(17:23):
Edward William Barton Wright.
Have either of you heard thisname before?
Ron (17:28):
He's probably got a really good fish fry place named after
him.
Don (17:33):
Does he have a brother?
I've heard of the Wrightbrothers.
Doug (17:38):
No, no, no, no, brother here, did he fly to America?
And another episode.
If there's anything to takeaway from this episode, it's how
uncanny we are when it comes tocoming up with multiple topics.
No, this guy so the name Ishould be more respectful but he
(18:00):
founds a form of martial artscalled Bartitsu, which is the
style of martial arts that isfamous for being the style of
Sherlock Holmes in the SherlockHolmes novels.
So Sir Arthur Conan Doyle tooksome lessons from this guy and
there's a little bit of a blendof kickboxing and jujitsu and
(18:22):
wrestling and all of thesethings that actually are kind of
foundational to mixed martialarts.
Um, but he starts a stylecalled bartitsu and which
sherlock holmes started.
Ron (18:31):
Uh, ufc absolutely so wait, sherlock holmes actually fought
people.
Yeah, he did I saw violence wasthe answer.
I saw a trailer to like therobert downey jr sherlock holmes
movie and he was like boxingpeople and I was like this is
ridiculous, let's go back tobasic Sherlock Holmes.
But you're telling me in thesource material he was straight
(18:53):
up punching people Going off.
I'm sorry, robert Downey Jr andthe entire cast of that film.
Doug (18:57):
Thank you.
Ron (18:57):
Because I used my base assumption to decide not to
watch it.
Don (19:02):
Robert Downey Jr just let out a sigh of relief right now.
Ron (19:11):
He assumption to decide not to watch it.
Doug (19:12):
Robert and jenny just let out a sigh of relief.
Right now he's vindicated,absolutely, yeah, he's actually.
Yeah, I can finally pass.
What a what a responsibilitythat you've laid.
So, um, yeah, um.
So at this time he has it.
But there's a man named SadakazuUyanishi who is a practitioner,
who he is our man, who camefrom Japan to the UK and he is
(19:32):
teaching people the art ofjujitsu and some judo as well.
Only distinction is judo isgenerally going to be the throws
, jujitsu is what you do afterthey hit the ground.
So this instructor has a schoolcalled the Japanese School of
Self-Defense.
He begins to train both Edithand William Garrard because,
again, they're trying to take inas many styles of martial arts
(19:54):
as humanly possible.
They've done a little bit oftraining with Edward William
Barton Wright as well, and thisinspires Edith and her husband
to start an academy.
And by this decision to startthis academy, edith becomes the
first female martial artsinstructor in the UK and one of
(20:16):
the first, if not the first, inthe world.
There's a little bit of debateon that, but historically this
is a pretty big deal.
Don (20:23):
Her academy was to just promote the physical.
Doug (20:29):
I don't know what was her academy for she is now interest
in, uh, interested in the focusof teaching women to defend
themselves.
That's the idea.
So william is taking over themen's class.
It's very, uh, it's very splitby gender, um, at this time.
But yeah, they have a women'sclass and men's class, but edith
is the person who is in, uh, incommand of the women's class
(20:50):
and is teaching women how todefend themselves in the uk.
Ron (20:52):
So in this new academy, this is in command of the
women's class and is teachingwomen how to defend themselves
in the UK, so in this newacademy this is a mix of the
Bartitsu from Sherlock Holmesand judo.
Doug (21:00):
Sherlock Holmes is showing up.
We've got everybody.
Was there a lot of like this is?
Ron (21:07):
I kind of assume people back then.
What year are we talking?
End of the 19th century?
Doug (21:15):
So we're looking at the late 1800s, like the earliest
recorded memory of them startingto train is is like 1899 is
really where this starts out.
And then, um, I believe theyopened the academy within four
years of that starting, becauseeventually their instructor in
jujitsu leaves and then theystart the academy after that.
(21:36):
And then Don you asked whatcombination of martial arts this
is correct.
So we're looking at the primaryfocus being jiu-jitsu, because
most of jiu-jitsu, judo and thegrappling arts are based on
leverage, regardless of size Ithink my question is just like
(21:57):
why are we doing this now?
Don (21:58):
because this is late victorian period, so so
grappling and rolling andpunching, none of these things
sound very ladylike to me soright?
I'm wondering, if this is yeah,how unusual was it for there to
be an Academy focused on Edithis definitely ahead of her time
and has a specific interest inthis.
Doug (22:19):
I like I would be very interested because there's not a
tremendous amount ofinformation on William and Edith
and like their relationship,but I would like, I very much,
imagine them as a very eclecticcouple who are just obsessed
with martial arts in this era.
Imagine them as a very eclecticcouple who are just obsessed
with martial arts in this era.
But this becomes much morerelevant because women's
(22:42):
suffrage in the UK is nowsomething that has become a hot
topic and there's a group ofwomen who, of course, want the
vote.
And so Edith starts putting ondemonstrations in both music
halls and theater halls, inwhich she is showing women how
they can defend themselves.
(23:03):
League.
She becomes politicallyactivated and is like we need to
start defending these women whoare pursuing the vote, because
there are many cases of policeopenly attacking them, like when
they have demonstrations, whenthey have speeches, they're
passing out literature, any ofthese things.
(23:24):
There have been instances ofpolicemen essentially not just
breaking up these gatherings,but there's accounts of sexual
assault.
There's accounts of women whohave died in the streets for
even bringing this up, and Edithnotices this and says you know,
I don't think this is exactlyright.
So I would like to train someof these women how to defend
(23:46):
themselves.
And this is where this startsto kind of cross over.
Don (23:49):
Are they breaking the?
Doug (23:50):
law.
Don (23:51):
No.
Doug (23:52):
The women they're able to speak.
Don (23:55):
So then what?
Why would the police even beinvolved?
Doug (23:58):
Well, I think we have to get into the sociopolitical
sphere here and start to talkabout um, why would any of them
not want them to have the vote?
Don (24:10):
Although, now that I think about it, they didn't have the
right to speak openly againstthe government.
Doug (24:18):
See, there it is.
I was going back to Ron 1776 atthe beginning of this.
This is the privilege ofAmerica speaking through me.
I was so confident too.
Ron (24:27):
I'm like, absolutely, what part of the world doesn't have
that right, because we like tothink the English are you know,
peers, but really they're not.
Doug (24:34):
Yeah, the pawn scum really we just dropped off in the uk
significantly sorry out therelisteners, I still love you.
They know what they're feeling.
Yeah, uh, yeah, don do you wantto elaborate?
Don (24:47):
because freedom of speech wasn't actually uh codified in
statute until 1998 in the uk, um, as a human right, though, uh,
as part of the uh the movementfor that.
So prior to that they wouldhave been protected under common
law, but but it doesn't enjoythe same.
It's not like our firstamendment under common law,
which is where, um, like, if youheard of speaker's corner in
(25:09):
Hyde Park, so there was specificplaces.
So Hyde Park in London isSpeaker's Corner, but there were
other parks that had, like aSpeaker's Corner, like that was
the spot you could go and make aspeech, but you had to be just
in that one little corner of thepark.
So the idea was that if youdidn't want to hear people
speaking you know controversialtopics then you just don't go to
(25:31):
that corner of the park.
Ron (25:32):
I don't want to hear them talking about fairies and
toadstools.
Don (25:37):
And if you wanted to be heard at Hyde Park, you would
bring a soapbox to stand on sopeople could see you, which is
why people get up on theirsoapbox to make it.
Doug (25:46):
And now we have it.
Yeah.
Don (25:47):
Absolutely.
But so these suffragettes wouldhave been breaking the law.
So why wouldn't the police haveevery right to come in and
enforce the law and keep thepublic safe?
Doug (25:55):
So we're talking about dissenters now, and they're the
type that I like they shouldhave gone home, thank you.
Ron (26:02):
Violence is never the answer.
That's why I asked.
Doug (26:05):
Have a great day everybody .
Yeah, that's so.
That's what we're looking at.
So that's what we're looking at.
So, yeah, this actually givesit new meaning, because Garrett
joining the Women's FreedomLeague is a far more radical
action, then because herdemonstrations, and now this is
pretty fun.
Now I'm excited for my owntopic, narcissistically.
Ron (26:29):
I was just doing it for the money.
Doug (26:33):
A whole new world.
Yeah, she would have herhusband dress up as a police
officer and she woulddemonstrate the different moves
that these women could use todefend themselves and invite
women who were part of theaudience to her dojo in order to
train.
(26:53):
And there is a big detail thatI've left out of.
Edith Garrett is four feet 11tall.
Legally, police had to be five10.
At the time.
You were not even consideredfor the force unless you were
five 10.
So her husband also being five10, she was able to throw this
(27:13):
guy around on stage and you canimagine the visual of seeing
somebody so small, um able to,you know, flip and throw this
guy all the way to Timbuktu isgoing to be absolutely
incredible, um, and it's goingto persuade a lot of people to
uh, hey, I want to learn some ofthis At I would.
Don (27:31):
So, just just so I have the timeline clear is edith and her
husband learn baru ritsu andjiu-jitsu from anything they can
get their hands on, anygrappling art?
Ron (27:46):
gentle grappling art, um.
Don (27:48):
but then they start an academy that's designed to teach
women how to defend themselves,just because they're in the
public.
And then, at a later point, shebecomes interested in the
suffrage movement and wellteaching anyone because,
remember, William is teachingmen as well.
Doug (28:06):
But I think that Edith's passion had always been teaching
women martial arts, and I thinknow I'm going to speak for
Edith.
But I generally find this is acommon view in the community of
martial arts that the idea oftraining martial arts is to give
you the feeling of safety andempowerment that you get when
you do train these things, and Iwould imagine that that was
(28:26):
probably where it started.
But then, seeing that officersare assaulting women in the
streets, we have women dying forthe cause.
Essentially, I think thatprobably activated her a little
bit more to where it was like.
Now I've got a purpose for thisand I want to invite women and
even more women into the dojo,because she's not doing
demonstrations before she joinsthe party.
Don (28:47):
Is this a good idea?
Doug (28:48):
Yeah, baby, I love it, I love it.
Ron (28:54):
Give them all the empowerment, right especially I
guess it's a good idea,depending uh, dependent, on how
it resolves, or are thereresults from this right is it?
Is it a fun kind of empowerment, like you too can throw around
a cop, or do they do it becauseif they start throwing around
the cops then I'm like, yeah,that then it was worth it,
(29:15):
unless the cops kill them allwith guns.
Doug (29:18):
I don't know.
Yeah, so we're getting there.
Uh, I wouldn't do that, so wedon't worry about that.
Thank you so much for clearingthat up.
It's so important.
So, um, she does have alegendary performance in may of
1909, which was organized by thewomen's social and political
union.
Which would you mind if Iabbreviate that for the rest of
(29:39):
the podcast as the wspu?
Ron (29:41):
yeah, that sounds great, okay I thought you're gonna say
they dropped off a package forme earlier.
Doug (29:45):
that's good.
Did it throw you aroundimmediately take, Take your bag,
that's right.
So she gives a performance inwhich she invites volunteers and
says would anybody like ademonstration?
Does anybody think that theycan withstand my might?
And she kind of gets rowdyabout this.
A few people go up on stage,throws them around and there's
(30:07):
an officer who walks in and saysabsolutely not, there's nothing
that you can do to harm me.
Don (30:14):
And of course he comes in as like a participant in the
exhibition.
Ron (30:17):
Or is he dressed in his officer?
Don (30:19):
johnnies, or whatever they call it, or is he there to break
up this illegal gathering?
Doug (30:22):
So we don't have details on that.
I could almost imagine that itprobably would be initially to
like let's break this thing up,but then sees that it's this
moment of let's see what you cando, because I'm imagining yeah,
let's script.
Ron (30:36):
Write this out, because I this guy, first off, he's got
big side burns.
Yeah, he's probably got thatattached into like a lemony
mustache over his very much.
Don (30:44):
So he's got the tall hat.
Ron (30:46):
He's swinging a baton.
He says all right now, ladies,time to go home.
Go home and scrub the floorsI'm imagining oi comes out first
always.
Don (30:58):
Oi is always what we're gonna hear before anything.
Doug (31:01):
um, but he, you know, heckles, uh edith.
She invites him onto the stageand shoulder throws him within
five seconds of him trying to.
Um, hit her with club Like itgoes for the club hit.
She ducks under it, grabs himunderneath the arm and shoulder
throws him and incapacitates himimmediately.
And then the queen song yeah,Immediately.
(31:21):
So, through this demonstration,emmeline Pankhurst, who is the
leader of the WSPU, askedGarrett to train about 30 women,
which become known and the mostunoriginal name as the
bodyguard that's cool that works.
Ron (31:43):
You like it.
It's simple and it works yeahabsolutely the bodyguard.
Doug (31:47):
The bodyguard, yeah.
So they bring them in and sayswould you train some of these
women Because we're havingincreased issues?
With every time that I speak,I'm being either ushered out, we
have police are committingviolence at our events and we
need to be able to defendourselves.
Don (32:06):
So, so please will you train these women how to be
violent, Because when I doillegal things, the police are
violently trying to stop me.
That's right.
Why is that a good idea?
Doug (32:19):
Because when an idea is powerful enough and justified
enough, when we finally see thatmaybe the law is wrong, it
might be time to take action.
In this case, and this is oneof those times.
Emmeline Pankhurst says I seethis woman, four feet 11 tall,
throwing these guys around.
I see an opportunity for womento be able to express themselves
(32:42):
politically.
Maybe she's the one that cantake us into the realm of being
able to defend ourselves,because it's not like they're
going out and saying like let'sjust kill the cops, let's submit
all the cops.
Don (32:54):
She had her husband dress up like a cop, Like that's
that's the message.
That's explicitly being sold tothe potential client students
is hey look what you can do topolice officer If you take my
classes like that's absolutelypromoting violence directly
against the police.
Doug (33:10):
Let's rephrase that.
Let me show you, since you'vebeen attacked by police officers
so many times, what you can doif you are attacked by a police
officer.
Ron (33:19):
You don't want this to happen to you.
Don (33:20):
Come on down to sal's couldn't she have demonstrated
that without having her husbanddress up like?
He could have dressed up, likea like, I don't know, like a
shepherd or uh all thoseshepherd.
Doug (33:32):
Oh man, I ain't going into shepherd town they won't leave
their hand going into thehighlands, yeah that's not
happening?
Don it's just getting sillyover there.
Don (33:45):
We need somebody to protect them he could dress up like
jack the ripper, that would be.
That would be maybe moresensible.
Okay, I would like that too,because that's some fun stuff
why have we not talked?
Doug (33:51):
we need to talk about Jack the Ripper.
That would be maybe moresensible.
Okay, I would like that too,because that's some fun stuff.
Why have we not talked about it?
We need to talk about Jack theRipper, right.
Ron (33:58):
I'm imagining, though.
The costuming is importantthough, because it's like Visual
symbol.
Not only the visual symbol, butI mean like the technical, like
look, grab him by his equipment.
Don (34:09):
No, no, no, no, no.
That sounds terrible.
No, no, no.
I don't mean Are you running?
Doug (34:13):
for president, you called it his Johnny earlier.
No, I meant like his belt.
Ron (34:20):
Like, hey, grab him by his belt, and then he's also got
rubber cuffs.
I don't know, they're notrubber Whatever.
Doug (34:26):
Like.
Ron (34:27):
I mean like there's a technical aspect of right Don
Lee fact-checked if rubber wasinvented.
Don (34:35):
Yeah, can you pull up an image of a?
I know that rubber was inventedbecause they did actually put
rubber on the police officer'sboots when they were searching
for Jack the Ripper in 1886.
Whoops, there you go.
Rubber was a thing.
Ron (34:47):
But like, the traction on this guy's boots are probably a
calculation when you'regrappling him and you know
what's the.
What part of his uniform can henot easily reach?
You know?
Don (34:58):
I don't know, but we're still promoting violence against
the police.
Oh, if they're unjust.
Ron (35:04):
If they're unjust If they're bad cops.
Don (35:07):
If they're enforcing the law, how is that bad?
But some laws Don.
Doug (35:11):
Yeah, not so good.
Do you want 1984?
Don (35:15):
Come on man, let's just pull it in Not all laws are good
laws, which is why thegovernment provides mechanisms
to change the law.
Ron (35:24):
Yes, to operate within the system to change the law At this
time period exclude certainmembers of the society that have
to operate under those laws.
Doug (35:35):
And so, Don, what you're saying is violence is not the
answer in this case.
Ron (35:45):
We could have done this peaceably.
Locomotive or whatever his nameis to, to, to, uh, like, sit
down with the suffragettes andlike, have a Cornish pie with
them and be like oh yeah, you'reright, I will take this into
(36:05):
consideration.
Don (36:07):
I'm just saying that it seems like it's something that
we ought to consider.
Like we're, we're looking atthis from our perspective, as
isn't it fun, right, that thethis, the, this diminutive young
woman was able to to take downthe burly police officer who
probably had an ego problem, andand, and it makes a good movie
(36:29):
scene for sure.
Ron (36:30):
Yeah, His wife, or his wife hates him.
You know like all these aretrue.
Don (36:39):
But we are saying we are promoting the idea that if you
don't like the way the law is,then just be violent until
somebody changes that law andthat.
Well, that's the question thatI'm like.
I'm struggling with a littlebit, because there is the police
are there to enforce the law.
They didn't make the law.
They didn't make the law thatsaid you can't gather and have
free speech.
They didn't make the law thatwomen can't vote.
(37:00):
They're just there to enforcethe law.
Doug (37:03):
Well, don, I know that we've had a conversation outside
of podcast about the cat andmouse act that was enforced in
england.
Um, what do you remember about?
Don (37:15):
that.
Well, it was unofficiallycalled the cat and mouse act.
Right, it was the uh, theprisoners act or the there's,
there's some more subjects tothat too.
The um, the title is more funif you call it cat and mouse.
It is, it's the prisoners.
Temporary discharge for illhealth act um and uh, it was the
(37:37):
suffragettes.
Um were the cause of it.
They, the primary um proteststhat would happen after
suffragettes were arrested, wasa hunger strike oh yeah and and
uh, um, they were force fed Um,and then that caused sympathy,
uh, from the public.
Doug (37:57):
So you like this world in which women uh have tubes forced
down their throats and areforced fed?
These are the laws that youlike so much.
Don (38:07):
Well, the law didn't say they had to have a tube pushed
down their throat.
The Cat and Mouse Act actuallywas a way to avoid that.
The Cat and Mouse Act releasedthem from prison so they could
regain their health, and thenthey would serve the rest of
their term after they had.
Doug (38:22):
But by your same logic, don't we need to show that the
law is unjust?
Don't they need to remain inprison to continue their
protests under the scrutiny ofthe eye?
Don (38:32):
Well, until this law was passed, and this law says that
they don't have to, so we arefollowing the law by releasing
them when they become ill.
Doug (38:37):
I just want to be careful as we go forward to make sure
that we look at these things inthe right light, because this is
a time of tremendous change andwe're right before World War.
I has happened and we are goingto circle back around to this.
This is something that I amgoing to want to address because
there is an argument, for thiswas just pointless violence and
this wasn't what got the firstwoman to vote in the UK.
(39:00):
But I don't want to spoil theending here, so let's keep it
ongoing.
All right, garrett agrees, I'lltrain your bodyguards.
I'll train your 30 women thatyou want to surround you, that
are capable with jujitsu, and Iwill make sure that they are
equipped to take care of you.
(39:22):
Such a public figure that theyknow that she can be political,
(39:45):
especially with her registeringwith the Women's Freedom League.
She now needs to train them insecret, because they're looking
at them as political activists.
These women, through theirtraining, have a big culminating
event known as the Battle ofGlasgow.
That demonstrates their skilland prowess in the art of
jiu-jitsu, as well as theirability to defend themselves.
The year is 1914.
Pankhurst is set to speak onher beliefs at St Andrew's Hall
(40:08):
in Glasgow, which police haveformed a perimeter inside the
hall to intimidate them.
There are 4,500 attendees atthis event stopping their feet
waiting for Pankhurst to takethe stage, and police are
prepared at any moment to kindof charge them.
The Bardi, the Bardi guards theBardi guards.
Ron (40:32):
That's that name.
Don (40:32):
I love, bodyguards.
Doug (40:36):
My pronunciation's gone today.
The bodyguard had set up a massline of bouquets of flowers to
decorate the front of the stage,which beautiful right?
Ron (40:46):
Yeah, it's cool, Women love flowers.
Thank you.
Doug (40:49):
Except they are entrenched inside with barbed wire.
Ron (40:55):
Oh, cooler Now.
The boys love it.
Women love barbed wire too.
I was waiting for that setup.
Doug (41:06):
So these are at the edge of the stage, in case the police
do decide to take this as astage and assault Emmeline, they
are going to be caught in thisbarbed wire, not so, gentle.
Now I see Don eyeing me in thecorner over there.
I hear you, don, ready tostrike.
Salivate Emmeline is 54 at thetime, so we need to protect her
right.
Emmeline actually disguisedherself.
(41:26):
She was sitting as a spectatorin the front row, looking like
she's one of the people who'sthere to listen to the speech
and, of course, in dramaticfashion, throws herself up in
probably the only area that'snot covered in the flowers I was
gonna say gets caught in thebarbed wire.
I feel like somewhere in thecourse of this podcast I had to
go on the defense.
Don (41:47):
I'm like I know Don's gonna say something.
Doug (41:50):
And so she was only able to speak for about 90 seconds
before police started pushingthrough the crowd and assaulting
some of the women.
The bodyguard gets up out oftheir seats, distinguished with
(42:12):
they don't exactly describe,from the accounts that I saw,
the types of outfits they had,but they had like a
distinguishing feature in whichthey start moving through the
crowd.
There's about 50 policeofficers towards the front of
the stage and all of thembasically being hip tossed,
thrown and flipped into tablesand chairs.
Um, it's looking a little bitmore like WWE at this point.
Um, as they're being like kindof sent off, some of the
officers who stormed the stageare caught in the barbed wire
(42:32):
and they are able to safely getEmmeline out of the St Andrews
Hall.
The reason that this issignificant is in these 30 women
defending themselves from thepolice officers.
This starts the crowd into whatis just under riot, crowd into
(42:54):
what is just under riot.
They're not breaking windows,they're not destroying property,
but the women who are in thehall are enthused to march
through the streets and it takesthe police over four hours to
basically clear the streets.
And so this event issignificant in that it's one of,
if not the loudest suffragemovement event in the history of
UK suffrage up to this point,and if it wasn't for the
(43:18):
encouragement of these women whoare successfully defending
themselves and this is where Donjumps on me here it's not for
this visual of seeing thesewomen who are able to defend
themselves, do they have theconfidence to march through the
streets for the next four tofive hours and speak out against
what is happening.
(43:39):
The thing to think about is,during the time that this
happens, we don't get the vote.
The vote actually only comesafter World War I, and this is
after Emmeline Pankhurst hasdevoted her time, cause and
energy into making sure that wesupport the war effort and is
pleasantly surprised to see thatsuffrage is on the rise
(44:00):
following World War I.
But the Don Party, as I call itnow, would argue that it is
because of the fatigue andstress of the violence of World
War I that they say you knowwhat, we don't want to get into
this again.
Let's slowly but surelydetermine the class and age of
the violence of World War I thatthey say you know what, we
don't wanna get into this again.
Let's slowly but surelydetermine the class and age of
women that can vote and we'lleventually start to extend this
outward, and as time goes on, itcontinues to build, and so the
(44:24):
debate and why I asked ifviolence is the answer is is
this just a blip in which, okay,some women learn how to defend
themselves?
It's a cool historical momentand, as, as Don said, it's very
cinematic.
Right, it's a movie moment inwhich these women learn how to
defend themselves.
Or is it just the fact that wefaced the worst, some of the
(44:45):
worst human atrocities in massviolence that we've ever seen,
and they go yeah, we'll bring inon the vote because we don't
want any more protests in in ourcountry?
And this is this is kind ofwhere our story of Edith
Garrett's influence ends, Um,and I'm curious what your takes
are on that.
Don (45:05):
Well, I want to go back to what you said, um, when you were
describing the event where, uh,where Pankhurst spoke, and and
then the, the melee broke out,and you, you said that it turned
into the, the largestsuffragette.
I don't know what you saidgathering, or so my question is
(45:29):
was it what made it so important?
Was it the number of people whowere present, or was it this
act of violence that broke outonce she began to speak?
Doug (45:38):
It was the fact that it turned from a moment in which it
was just going to be we'relistening to this woman speak on
our behalf to we're taking tothe streets and marching and
shouting the injustices.
Marching and shouting theinjustices I wonder if they
would have had the confidence todo so and be moved to that
action, if not seeing that womenwere capable of overturning
(45:59):
this authority that is in thishall.
That's the point of debate.
Ron (46:05):
And I think there's a frequently, frequently, at least
in the united states there'sthis idea that protest movements
need to be non-violent, and Ithink that largely this comes
from the sort of the educationwe've had and the particularly
the education we receiveregarding the civil rights
movement in the 1960s and how ittends to uh spotlight, uh
(46:29):
martin luther king jr and hisrole in that movement more than
other people's roles in thatmovement and uh, kind of in
order to sort of um say almostthis is how you affect change
when, uh, when you are, when apeople or a group of you know
(46:50):
people is maybe morally in theright and, like we were talking
about earlier, right, the lawain't good, right, and the
mechanisms to change the law areunjust or deaf to the, the
people who want the laws tochange.
A lot of us are told like thisis the way you do it.
You just you know you'd be areally good speaker and you
march on Washington and you'llwait a little bit, and there'll
(47:12):
wait a little bit and there'llbe some dogs and some hydrants,
but you'll get what you want.
You'll get what you want, um,but that's frequently not true.
There there are always uhviolent, uh escapades, clashes
between both parties in thesekinds of protest movements.
I think, throughout the 20thcentury, almost certainly before
that also, and I think this isclearly one of those cases,
(47:36):
right, like, think about all thelike the political upheaval in
Europe with the rise of thefascist parties, you know, at
the beginning of World War Two,right, there are frequently
clashes between fascists andanti-fascists, uh, you know,
back then, uh, in england again,I know, right, there's a,
there's a famous one that occursin london, where the people in
london were like, no, screwthese fascists.
(47:58):
And they just beat them all up.
Um, and we, I think what you'relike, you know, what we've
hinted at, is, like, what make,what makes us say, yeah, that
one was good and oh, no, thatone's bad right like when is
violence good and when isviolence bad?
right, that's kind of, I think,what makes this interesting,
because I think, uh, at least Iand probably a lot of people
(48:19):
listening to this you know, welive in a world where it's like
the, the, the idea that womencan vote.
It seems like it's been settleda long time ago, but, right,
not not that long really, if youthink about it.
Doug (48:30):
Yeah, we take it for granted.
Ron (48:31):
Yeah, we do, but it's just an obvious no-brainer.
Almost.
To us it's like oh yeah, ifsome mutton-chopped cops are
going to get between you and theright to vote, then yeah, beat
them up.
That seems to us like a verysimple one, right.
Doug (48:47):
Well, I just wonder if it would have ever happened that we
get back from world war one andthe fatigue setting in if they
didn't have the memory of, ohyeah, when we last left this
issue, there was rioting.
We had women who were trainingin martial arts that had to
defend this.
I'm now more willing to engageon changing the law about this,
(49:08):
because this has this hasalready been something that's
awful and I think, the worldbeing ready, you described it as
like, if you're able to waitaround through it, like people
will remember, then it willchange things.
Um yeah, I wonder if theyhadn't made that march.
If they had, would have gottenit immediately following world
war one.
Don (49:26):
That's the kind of the question I have and I I don't
know how I became the villain ofthis episode.
Ron (49:35):
But just because of the views you've always had and
always voiced it on.
Doug (49:40):
It's been fun.
Don (49:43):
The cause.
I think to answer your question, ron right, like how do we
decide which one is good andwhich one is not it, I think we
decide that from the perspectiveof history.
I think when it's happeningit's much harder to feel morally
secure in whatever choice we'remaking Right.
So we look back a hundred years, or you know, a hundred, 105
(50:03):
years, and we say, well, yeah,it's great because you know, the
women succeeded indemonstrating their power and
they gained a political rightthat they probably should have
had for much longer right.
They should have had all alongand it took until 1918 for us to
realize this.
But when there's contemporarythings happening I mean we just
had insurrection and violenceand riots in our own country,
(50:26):
right, and on both sides of thepolitical spectrum arguments
that the persons who wereparticipating in that violence
were wrong, right.
So we had the January 6th riotwas one and that was countered
with the Black Lives Movementunrest that was happening in
(50:49):
several cities and so, like Iwould think, those both
represent pretty extreme sidesof the political spectrum and
both of them were denounced aswrong because they were violent.
But from history's perspective,in a hundred years we probably
will have a clearer idea ofwhich one was right and which
one was wrong than we do whenwe're living in the moment of
(51:10):
when they're happening.
Doug (51:11):
Yeah yeah, Historical narrative becomes very
interesting because it's likeyou almost have to let it
marinate or become a soup, andthen you have to decide what
that looks like and like who arethe people who are decrying
present day political violence,right, like, I mean, it's always
going to be the people in power.
Ron (51:30):
It's always going to be governments who say, you know,
say any kind of violent actagainst us is bad, right, or
this isn't the way to voice it,or hey, why don't you, you know,
go through the proper channels,why don't you vote in your
local election and like, andmaybe in 15 years you can get
crushed by corporate interests,and this can not happen, right,
(51:50):
like, uh, uh, so frequently, Ithink, when we ask, like, uh,
going back to this issue ofcloudiness, right, how can we in
the moment determine whether ornot these acts of political
violence are good or bad?
I mean, I think that's a deeplykind of personal question.
It's one, it's one of thereasons why we need to be
(52:10):
educated, critical, kind of gotto figure out what those are for
yourself, right, and thenhopefully form some sort of
(52:37):
consensus with a group oflike-minded people.
We'd like to think, right, isthat too starry eyed Am I?
Am I waxing uh lyrical, uhhopeful, optimistic, maybe?
Don (52:51):
Yeah, yep, optimistic, maybe.
Yeah, yep, sorry, bud, I thinkwhat you're describing is
absolutely the ideal.
I think the the plague ofhumanity is that we never have
that luxury of judging our ownhistory until we're out of our
own history.
So, so, so the history that weare currently creating will be
(53:13):
judged by the next generationand the generation after that,
when we're long gone.
So so you just got to do yourbest in the moment, right?
And so I have opinions about,you know, the examples that I
gave, uh, but whether or not myopinions are the right opinions,
I think, will be judged inanother a hundred years or so.
The um, the thing that that thatcomplicates this question for
(53:35):
me, right?
So I know I've been asking thequestion about is it right to
use violence against the police?
The police are just enforcingthe law.
Um, the uh.
There's a uh feminist, um, uh,academic named Judith Butler,
who, um, writes about the pointsout, rather, that the, the in
(53:56):
position of the state, is also aform of violence, right, so the
police are violent as well.
So to say that, oh, thesuffragettes shouldn't have used
violence because they shouldhave followed the law, the
police application of violenceis also the law.
So you get into thesesituations where, especially
(54:17):
where marginalized groups areoppressed and have less access
to freedom or rights, what, like?
What choice do we have for themexcept to break out in violence
, like you know, when they'repainted into a corner by the
very law that we're trying tosay is like somehow the baseline
purity that shouldn't beviolated.
Yeah, correct.
Doug (54:38):
I think for me, I continually think of like, why I
get wrapped up in like.
One part of this is, of course,like the ways that I
romanticize jujitsu.
So of course, I'm going to bevery interested in the topic,
but I also think that there issimply a part of my heart that,
just when a person cannotexpress full freedom and, in
(54:59):
this case, the ability toparticipate democratically in a
society that they participate in, it just always seems to be the
correct answer to give them ashot at that right, like if they
are a contributing member, andof course, that's where it
becomes the dialogue.
Well, how are they acontributing member?
And I can hear the potential.
(55:20):
I believe you described them asmutton-chopped, the
mutton-chopped voices that areresponding back of.
You know they only have theseduties, they don't need to
participate democratically, butit resounds with me because they
especially thinking of a woman,um, occupying a society in
which she is four foot 11 andhas every right to feel
(55:43):
completely dominated, even justphysically, by all presences
around her, and she makes thedecision to empower herself and
women around her so they canfeel more than.
These are the figures that Iroot for the most and I
appreciate the most.
Ron (56:00):
There's a David and Goliath element to this story right,
this is a very, you know.
I wonder to what extent it'scultural or, you know, universal
, the kind of pull that humanshave to stories of people with
less power taking on people withmore power and winning and
succeeding or being vindicated,if not, then then through the
(56:22):
long march of history.
Right, it has that element toit as well, and that's an
element in all stories ofpolitical struggle.
Right, the state is alwaysgoing to be the Goliath.
Right, and the people who wantto change it, they're always
going to be the Davids, andthere's an appeal in that, I
(56:46):
suppose the people who oftenstruggle with with the new um,
the new issues that arise.
Don (56:56):
Um are the same ones who will support that David and
Goliath story when it's ahistorical fact.
So the American revolution, forexample is a is a classic David
and Goliath, and you know well,could we have uh, you know,
could the continental Congresshave have utilized the methods,
within the law, to you mind, ofthe parliament or King George,
and literally we were excludedfrom representation.
(57:18):
So, united States, and you knowit was throwing off the tyranny
of a government that existedthousands of miles away, but it
(57:39):
turned out good for us, right?
But this story that you'redescribing is the exact same.
You've got a group ofmarginalized people that don't
have a voice in how they aregoverned and you know the they
chose to take violent actions inorder to promote their cause
and, of course, they get the thewin.
(58:00):
But when it's happening, I'msure that it wasn't seen as a
good thing that we havesuffragettes and and other women
throwing police officers across, you know, bars and into walls
and stuff.
Doug (58:12):
Well, speaking of marginalized voices, may I
conclude with some words fromEdith Garrett.
It is the Japanese fine art ofjujitsu, or self-defense, that
has proved more than a match formere brute force and is
therefore not only a goodaccomplishment but a necessary
safeguard for the woman who hasto defend herself through life.
Physical force seems the onlything in which women have not
(58:35):
demonstrated in their equalityto men.
And whilst we are uh, we arewaiting for the evolution which
is slowly taking place andbringing about that equality, we
might as well take time by theforelock and use science,
otherwise jujitsu thank you,jujitsu yeah, it's great I
(58:55):
understand it now, doug.
I understand why you go intothat room every day and because
doug wants to vote yes yeah,it's voting time, that's what I
say, but not yet doug just waita little bit longer that's right
, but man, I mean she does soshe makes me really proud to be
a part of it, uh, to say theleast, and I think that, um, in
(59:15):
the small.
Don (59:15):
Do you still wear petticoats when you do?
Doug (59:18):
jiu-jitsu.
Uh, it's funny there are somany forms.
I do a very specific type thatlike essentially we're just
wearing like rash guards andshorts, that it's probably
closer to an mma, um.
But there are very traditionalschools like still I think it's
still the most predominant formof school that where the
Japanese gi and like kimono andso you're able to get grips on
people's lapels and pants andlike a sleeve grips and things
(59:41):
like that.
I just don't train that versionbecause I've always thought
like I'm not going to findsomebody on the street.
Ron (59:47):
I want to join the barbed wire school.
Well, we have to start that one.
Doug (59:52):
Bartitsu, Bartitsu to barbed.
Anyway, folks, thank you forlistening in to another episode
of the uncannery.
Ron (01:00:03):
Thanks, doug, that was really good.
Doug (01:00:29):
Thank you Bye.
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