July 23, 2024 • 50 mins
Each chord of nostalgia strikes a familiar tune, and as we ramble through the rebellious anthems of our youth, you're invited to join the riff. We revel in the musical tapestry that adorned our formative years, from the unleashed roar of Def Leppard to the nonchalant grooves of the B-52s, and the parental advisory-laden allure of Limp Bizkit. We crack open our personal playlists, airing the tracks that defined our adolescence and the intricate dance of fitting in with the allure of private enjoyment.
Venturing deeper into the shadows, our narrative threads through the gritty labyrinth of extreme metal subgenres. We cast a spotlight on how black metal’s notorious early '90s scene, with its vehement anti-commercial stance and associated acts of violence, unwittingly etched its mark on cultural history. The enigmatic Varg Vikernes enters the conversation, not just as a musician, but as a controversial figure whose actions and philosophies ignite fervent dialogue on cultural identity and opposition to societal norms.
Closing with a contemplative chord, we unpack the interplay of art, music, and morality within youth subcultures. The tragic feud between black metal titans Vikernes and Euronymous serves as a poignant backdrop, prompting us to ponder the relationship between an artist's work and their personal conduct. As we reflect on how these controversies have sculpted the evolution of musical genres, we invite you to consider the shifting sands of our connection to music—from an integral part of our identity to a vessel of aesthetic appreciation or comforting nostalgia.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug (00:15):
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of the
Uncannery.
I am Doug.
Ron (00:20):
I am Ron.
Don (00:24):
And.
Doug (00:24):
I have a robotic cadence and I'm Ron and I have a robotic
cadence, and I'm Don.
Today I have a question for you,gentlemen.
I want to hear about theteenage years for just a moment.
I want to hear about theteenage years.
Did you have an anthem that youlistened to, that kind of I
don't know defined youradolescence?
(00:44):
Was it rebellious in nature?
Was there a style of music thatyou liked, that mom just didn't
want any more of?
Turn that rack at all.
Did you have anything like that?
I want to start here.
Ron (00:58):
No, I was so not rebellious or cool as a teenager, like I
didn't really listen to popularmusic until probably high school
and then, I think it was justmy buddies, like my buddy's dad,
who drove us around and toschool he just listened to
classic rock.
So when I got into popularmusic it was like stuff from the
(01:18):
seventies and no one wasyelling at me to stop playing
that Cause everyone liked it.
Doug (01:24):
Turn that rush record off young man.
It's 40 years old.
Ron (01:29):
I did get really into Def Leppard.
I really loved Def Leppard inhigh school.
Doug (01:35):
What era of Def Leppard are we talking about?
Like the 80s?
Pyromania, pyromania, hysteria,yeah, oh yeah, hysteria.
Ron (01:48):
I think that's still one of the single best produced albums
ever made.
Doug (01:50):
I would agree they still pay that guy an exorbitant
amount.
That might be a whole separatepodcast.
The guy who produced that.
He is still looked after.
People are still going afterhim saying produce our records
and he makes unbelievableamounts of money to get that
sound and everybody don.
Ron (02:04):
How are you rebelling?
Don (02:06):
I'm not a I'm not a rebel um, but trying to think about
the anthem song.
Like I, I have very strongmemories of two specific
categories of music, but I don'tknow, an anthem might be too
strong, like the things thatwould just naturally pop into
the cd player on my car when wewent out.
Driving would be b-52s, cosmicthing, cd yeah, especially
(02:27):
deadbeat club was our favorite.
And then and this one is astrange memory because I have
super strong memories of the cdand I can remember what it looks
like, but I can't name a singlesong on it but I could probably
.
If we played it, I couldprobably sing along.
Ron (02:41):
Okay is kerosene hat by cracker oh yeah, yeah, you're
taking it back, okay, and butneither of these made any family
members mad I never reallyplayed music around my family,
so they never had theopportunity really to opine okay
I feel like this is like maybea generation like by that time
we had walkman and stuff and youwould just go listen to your
(03:03):
music on your headphones.
Okay, I know, I don't even Idon.
I didn't know anyone who waslike making their parents mad
because they were playing musicon the record player or anything
.
Doug (03:13):
Yeah, For me things started to change because of the
parental advisory explicitlabel that was on CDs.
I remember really wanting LimpBizkit's, the Chocolate Starfish
and the Hot Dog Flavored Water.
I wanted it so badly becausethere was a promotion.
It was like a wrestling promothat had one of the songs in it
(03:36):
and I couldn't.
I would be praying that thecommercial would come on so I
could hear the clip of the raprock all over again.
Don (03:43):
And.
Doug (03:44):
I remember I think that's what started it I remember
bargaining with my mom sayingI'm only going to listen to
songs one, seven, nine and 12 onthis.
None of them are explicit.
Those are the only ones.
And then, of course, I'mlistening to the whole thing.
Don (03:58):
but I did your mother not want you to listen to it because
of the sticker or because shehad listened to the songs and
determined that the content wasnot appropriate for young
Douglas's ears?
Doug (04:08):
She is.
So no, she had not heard thealbum, she simply saw the
sticker, saw the album cover,which was just very kind of
lurid art, and I think she madeher decision right then.
And there I don't know if Ineed my son listening to this.
I think that's what started itfor me.
Maybe it is just me then.
Yeah, that was it.
And then Linkin Park yeah, thatwas a big part of it, okay.
Don (04:32):
And did you choose music because your mother didn't want
you to listen to it?
Doug (04:36):
or did you choose?
Don (04:37):
music because you liked it and you like this mom?
Doug (04:41):
You don't.
That's what I want now.
You like this mom, you don't.
That's what I want now.
Don (04:54):
No nothing that evil.
Doug (04:55):
No, this was just, I think , the second.
The teenage hormones started tokick in, like those
prepubescent moments where yougo.
Things are changing.
I just attached myself to moreaggressive music immediately.
That was the outlet, because Irealized I could have the
feelings without any of theviolence, the anger.
It was just I could enjoy themusic and I felt like I could
channel it through that.
I think that's where thingschanged.
(05:16):
Yeah, it was around that time.
Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit Iremember those were the two that
were the discussion of, I'm notsure.
Ron (05:22):
And it's really hard to say why you like anything as an
adolescent, I feel Because it'slike there's so many spheres of
influence.
Was it someone you knew?
Was it someone you wanted toknow?
Was it something you thoughtwould make you look cool?
Was it?
What were the music?
There was always musical actsthat you listened to in deep
privacy and told no one about.
For me, that was the shins.
I was like no one can learn.
(05:46):
I like the shins.
Doug (05:47):
How sad.
I love the shins.
Ron (05:49):
That was very public, I do too, but I think I don't even
that.
Doesn't even sound like anembarrassing group to me anymore
, but I think somewhere at myschool I must have heard ron at
home in his bedroom listening1940s musicals, musicals Now
we're talking, now we're talking.
It's all cats for me.
Doug (06:09):
And that I really hope that neither of you gentlemen
bring to the podcast cats.
I just can't do it.
Ron (06:15):
I think now I will.
Actually I'm very fascinated bycats, but that's a discussion
for another time.
The musical cats.
Yeah, I've only been introducedto it in the last couple of
years, but the fact that it wasas popular as it was, I think,
said a lot about a culture indecline.
Doug (06:31):
Okay, you always find a way to sell me, papa.
Don (06:35):
And you did it again, yeah.
Doug (06:37):
I'll take it.
Yeah, no, there's too much, allright.
So why do I bring this up?
Today?
We are going to talk about thisjourney that I started on of
the rebellious music led me intoheavy metal music and I think
that even before I was buyingrecords, I think that the
genesis of this I've alwayslooked at it as in fifth grade
(06:58):
my uncle gave me an Iron Maidenalbum and that took me a very
different direction.
Just because the energy thatwas involved the operatic
singing, the guitar solos I justI loved all of it immediately
and I think that's what kind ofstarted to steer me on that path
.
And there's a weird thing thathappens with metal that when you
really get into it it becomeslike this almost depraved act of
(07:22):
looking for what's heavier thanthat?
Don (07:23):
what's heavier than that?
Doug (07:25):
And that eventually led me to the genre that is known as
black metal Very much.
What do you mean by heavierthan that?
That is a great question.
So if you look at the Genesis,many people are going to put
Black Sabbath as the Genesis ofheavy metal.
There were groups before that,but they really were the first
(07:46):
prototype for that.
Heavier involves we're becomingless melodic.
The vocals are going fromscreams into territory.
That yeah, like we're goingfrom the singing to the screams.
We're playing drums at a speedthat sounds like a machine gun,
(08:08):
to where it's described as ablast beat.
That's like a very common term.
We're borrowing from otherextreme genres of music like
hardcore, punk, rock.
We're borrowing from you nameit.
It's just becoming a morewarped and isolated version.
It's more it's harsher to theear.
I would say Not that there'snot a lot of craftsmanship to it
(08:30):
.
I definitely have put on many arecord and people say there's
no musicianship in this and I goyou try to play this because
there is.
But eventually I land on blackmetal.
Don (08:39):
So it has to do with the musical sound of it, not with
the content of the lyrics.
Doug (08:45):
for example, it also could have to do with that.
There are so many sub genres.
You have your industrial metalthat has a lot to do with like
kind of an industrial soundmeaning factory, like kind of
noises and drum machines thatkind of create a droning
machine-like sound.
You have death metal, which isyou're also screamy and like big
(09:07):
drum beats and things, but it'sfocused around the name of the
band that is, the originator ofthe genre is death and so they
were trying to emulate thatsound, but it's characterized
with like very low, gutturalkind of screams.
Don (09:20):
See, that's really strange, because I always associate
death with being quiet.
Ron (09:24):
Yeah, If these metal heads they don't go gentle into that.
Good night if you will, butthere's like this sort of the
idea of being heavy does involvedarkness and spookiness and, I
guess, things that areantithetical to popular music at
the time which is usually aboutlike love songs and upbeat
(09:44):
songs and I'm driving to thecoffee shop songs, and and then
it's like punk, right where punkshows up and is we're gonna
play the music?
really bad, we're not gonna bevery commercial.
And then it becomes verycommercial and I think they were
trying to like, oh, punk fail,let's do it, let's go further by
being like, yeah, by talkingabout death and blood and ghosts
(10:05):
and JR Tolkien.
Doug (10:08):
Watch out for JR.
That's all I got to say.
Yeah, a lot of that.
But it also has to do with, Ithink of genres like doom, metal
, or sometimes it's like thewhole podcast is actually just
going to be genres, nevermind.
Don (10:20):
We're not just talking about black metal.
Doug (10:22):
This is going to be one hour of every sub genre in
existence, but I think of doommetal or like stoner metal, like
the idea of the slowestpossible, heaviest riffs that
are grooving bluesy but just arelike played at the slowest
speed humanly possible, but thatwould be considered heavy.
Just as much as Metallica'sfirst four albums would be
(10:44):
considered heavy.
It's a Metallica's first fouralbums would be considered heavy
.
It's a.
It actually is a great question.
It needs a book to be written.
What is heavy just to study fromthat perspective.
So black metal is a weird one,because they very much were at
the outskirts and fringes ofwhat extreme metal was and they
(11:05):
were trying to take it to, intheir minds, probably the most
extreme places, even rejectingwhat was probably selling.
I don't know, like maybe if yousold 10,000 albums, which maybe
that seems like a lot, butinternationally selling 10,000
albums is probably not that muchthey were trying to say that
was commercial.
These black metal groups, if wedo a pressing of 500 and sell
(11:27):
out, that's it, that's how rare.
Don (11:29):
we are Black metal trying not to make money doing what
they're doing.
Doug (11:33):
Oh yeah, the money was never important.
It was all about the reputationand of course we'll get into it
.
Ron (11:38):
It's like a scene right.
Doug (11:39):
Yeah.
Ron (11:41):
Is it the same as artificially generated like?
Because it's scarce, it must becool.
Doug (11:47):
I think that there is some of that.
I very much still like themusic a lot.
I actually make this kind ofmusic now but there's something
to it, especially this veryspecific era that we're going to
look at, in the early 90s, thatkind of set the tone for what
this is, and it's changed a lotnow.
(12:08):
But, yeah, there was a certainexclusivity to it that I don't
know.
I was drawn to as I was likelooking at the history of metal
Cause I was also fascinated bythat, like going okay, here's
Iron Maiden, and that leads tothis band Down the rabbit hole
we go, and it's the NFTs of.
Don (12:22):
That's right Once you get that print.
Doug (12:25):
That's it, the ones we're going to look at today.
We're going to the 1993 blackmetal murders.
Actually, this involves bandsthat I discovered their music
and I discovered they killedeach other.
So it's quite the tale.
And I'd like to start it with aquote from one of the front men
(12:46):
of the bands that we're goingto be talking about, and not
only the front man, but heactually played every single
instrument on every single oneof his records.
His name is Varg Vikernes has aone-man black metal project
called Bortsom.
He said youth are not being toldwhat to do, or they're being
told what to do, butinstinctively they know it's
(13:06):
wrong.
Christianity is good, americais good, but we knew deep down,
we knew this wasn't it?
This is something that he wasreflecting on as he was
producing his first few albumsas being a Norwegian musician,
and he felt very ostracized fromhis community.
He saw the world changingaround him and he felt that
heacized from his community.
He saw the world changingaround him and he felt that he
was losing his cultural identityand losing his mind.
(13:32):
In my opinion and we're goingto break down some of what that
is.
So shall we start at thebeginning, please do.
Don (13:40):
Okay.
Doug (13:41):
In the late 80s, as we're talking about.
With heavy heavy metal gettingheavier, we're seeing that bands
are pushing boundaries in termsof vocal attempts, as I was
saying, how noisy things can get, how fast you can play, how
slow you can play, and peopleare beginning to experiment that
genre I told you about a momentago.
Death metal emerges from thisband named Death that has very
(14:05):
low, growly vocals, that'sincorporating elements of a lot
of the eighties music or theeighties metal music.
That's there, but there's a newextremity that is being hit
that starts to attract groups ofmusicians that want to play
this style of music.
That music is American in itsbase.
(14:25):
That's where this starts, butthese records make their way to
Norway.
A group of teenagers in Norwaywho started to play this music
realized that they wanted tocreate their own identity and
their own sound and they pushedthemselves towards the more evil
tendencies of some of thegroups in the more extreme
genres and they said what can wedo to really push this in the
(14:49):
direction that they wanted to?
A band emerges from thisexperiment called Mayhem.
The year is 1987 and theyrelease their Death Crush EP or,
as I have heard it, mostinterviewed and talked about the
Death Crush EP, which is veryfamous for the album cover.
(15:11):
I shouldn't be laughing, it'sjust, it's so extreme.
It is the severed hands of aprisoner that are hung up on a
wire with a red background andthe band logo.
So they're really making astatement in terms of how
extreme the imagery is on thefront.
They have not played a liveshow.
(15:32):
They essentially have justreleased the record and have
circulated this around the teensin Norway who are interested in
this scene, just on itsreputation alone.
People are being drawn to Norwaybecause this is such a unique
sound.
The guitarist, euronymous, kindof created something that was
completely unique to them at thetime and actually Varg Vikernes
(15:54):
was part of the project as well.
At this time.
It was this group and thiseventually shoots into a bunch
of other bands.
This inspires these musiciansto start creating albums and
Norway essentially becomes thehub of black metal.
This is the place you will see.
On the backs of some of thealbums it will say true,
(16:14):
norwegian black metal.
And if your bell is ringing alittle bit for sounds a little
nationalistic, did they ever getinto slightly racially?
Did they ever get intoterritory where they maybe made
some insensitive racial comments?
Ron (16:28):
Absolutely, and we're getting there, not the
Norwegians, they're so nice.
I mean, the Norwegian kids arepunks, yeah.
Doug (16:38):
Yeah, and that's the thing is it does feel a bit like punk
rock.
It's the idea of we're not justgoing to be like this other
group.
This is our thing, we'll do itour way, which is the thing that
Iminded too, because thesegroups decide this is the way
(17:06):
that it should sound, which wasthe opposite of what they wanted
to do originally.
Dark Throne another group in1992, so we're fast-forwarding a
little bit releases A Blaze inthe Northern Sky around the same
time that Burzum that I talkedabout earlier releases their
self-titled album a month later.
These albums are landmark inestablishing okay, this is the
(17:32):
scene.
These are the groups that areputting forth this music and
this is what the sound is.
And we even have groups thatare changing their sound
intentionally to sound more likethis mayhem death crush record
that had come out.
This is changing the way thatpeople play music.
Don you seem to have anacquisitive look on your face?
Do you have questions?
Don (17:53):
well, I yeah I do.
So.
You keep talking about theirbelief in the sound of a music
or that that it should sound acertain way, and but at the same
time, we started with theirbelief that they weren't going
to commercialize.
So are they like mild manneredbusinessmen during the day, and
then they turn into these blackmetal?
It sounds like a cult is whatit sounds like.
(18:14):
There's a belief that it has tosound this way.
You can call them ghouls, yeah.
Doug (18:19):
I would argue that there is very cult like behavior in
this because it's the kidsalmost all of them are between
the ages of 16 and 20 that arein these projects.
And that is the great irony ofthis is they listen to already
this very fringe music and saywe're going to create our own
thing and make our own sound.
(18:44):
They're making a decision.
This is the sound, which Ithink was the purpose the whole
time was to not do that, likethey were supposed to just
individually express themselves,and then they, yeah, almost
sell themselves short by sayingthis is the way that it should
sound.
No, these are very misguidedyouth.
So, to go back to our quotefrom the beginning, when they
(19:05):
were teenagers, the way Vargdescribes it is the parents
generally were not parentingthem much.
It's like a group ofmiddle-class Norwegians that
essentially have parents thatsay just do good in school, do
your thing, and aren't reallyinvested in the kids' lives as
much.
So they turn to music.
And once you have this figurein Mayhem, no-transcript.
Ron (19:56):
Doug currently has a the book of revelations out in front
of him and he's just pickingrandom adjectives and proper
nouns from there.
Doug (20:04):
This is really a cult like study.
So I start my cult and I wantto welcome the two of you to our
first meeting.
Ron (20:10):
The Uncanna cult.
Doug (20:11):
Great.
Ron (20:17):
I love it.
Doug (20:18):
And a quick shout out to the board game let's Summon
Demons.
Just unbelievable replay,valuable that we've had.
We're looking for sponsors.
I'm just saying we'd love tohost.
Ron (20:29):
We've had some've had some good fun.
I think I won both times,didn't I?
Doug (20:35):
yes, yeah, I'm good at it, give us money.
Don (20:38):
How do you spell pander?
Doug (20:39):
I'm not spelled with a s, with two lines through.
I think that's it.
So this is all we've discussedso far is mayhem has created an
ep.
This leads other people to wantto create this sound.
That's the focal point is, thisgenre of music is created and
that's what I was captivated byat the time was like okay, this
does sound different, and I lovethe kind of neoclassical
(21:03):
melodies that were involved.
I like the fact that wecurrently and I would say that
we don't have the, we're not ina LA grade studio right now.
We could at least say that eventhe stuff that we're sitting
here recording this podcast withright now would be considered
the top of the line, highestquality recording equipment that
(21:24):
you could possibly use torecord something like a black
metal record.
There are tales of Varg using acomputer PC mic like what you
would use to talk to friendsonline during a video game or
during a Discord.
Call is essentially what he wasusing to record all of the
vocals for his album.
The guitars were often directlyinto the mixing board or
(21:44):
8-track player and thedistortion was created by just
clipping the audio as high as itcould possibly go, without any
natural amplification.
I just was interested in theidea of the diy ethic of it and
I liked a lot of the recordsthat happens a lot, though,
right with like new music sceneformation.
Ron (22:01):
Like you, I feel like the music scene is a sort of or a
boros, where a scene pops up.
It it's all very DIY, it'syoung people figuring something
out.
It finds a market, becomes big,then you bring in the
microphones and the cool stuffand then becomes the kind of
blase or passe.
And then and then a new, a newgroup of gutter punks rises up
(22:26):
from the ashes and they they gottheir weird Apple laptops and
their garage banding some weirdstuff, and now they're hot,
absolutely yeah.
Doug (22:35):
Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say and once
you lose that, mama got to cryto papa.
Nobody's ever said that, by theway.
Who's papa Didn't have to makeit sad man as I'm learning the
backgrounds of all these bands,I'm not taking it incredibly
serious, I'm just like, okay, sohere they are.
A lot of the lyrics verge oneither pagan or satanic, and
(23:00):
that's common for metal thatyou're going to use something
that's outlandish to go towards,to go towards.
They were a bit more seriousthan I originally had taken in.
So I'd like to go to April of1991.
Mayhem has played a few liveshows.
At this point I want to talkabout their vocalist.
(23:22):
I know that I said Euronymouswas the name of the guitarist.
It's a little bit easier toremember the singer's name.
Ironically or literally,depending on how you look at it,
his name is Dead.
That's, his name is Dead Dead.
The singer of Mayhem wasnotorious for the style of paint
that he wore on his face.
(23:43):
He was famous for his stageperformances in which he would
lacerate himself live.
It's very extreme performancesthat he would give, and what is
tragic about all of this is thatbehavior was I believe it seems
(24:03):
to be somewhat of a cry forhelp, because in April of 1991,
he took his own life.
There is speculation thatEuronymous was encouraging him
to do this.
There is speculation thatDeadhead asked potentially for
help and was not getting it tocontinue to keep the grim
(24:25):
atmosphere of the band alive.
But the young man did take hislife, and that was supposed to
be the end of mayhem.
What Euronymous decided to dois Dead had taken his own life
by.
Basically, he had shot himselfwith a shotgun.
Euronymous opened up the cabindoor to where he was living
(24:45):
because he hadn't heard from himin a few days, and found dead
there, and instead of callingthe police, he decided to take
high definition photographs ofthe body and collect pieces of
the skull, to which he would, inthe future, make necklaces from
these fragments and would giveto people that he deemed worthy
(25:08):
to be in the scene.
It's at this point that we veerinto the territory of.
There's something very wronghere, to say the least.
Varg Vikernes, who was in theband and had left the band, is
now part of this band.
Bartsum was frustrated with thefact that, essentially, the
(25:30):
scene had grown into somethingof Euronymous being a person who
wanted the glamour of theviolence and murder that had
surrounded this politicalmessage and, in the subsequent
years, actually created a groupcalled, I believe, the Inner
(25:52):
Circle that would burn churchesin Norway, and we're talking
between four and 600 year oldchurches that were in Norway
because they represented thestain of Christianity on pagan
land, and Varg was especiallydisturbed at the fact that
(26:13):
Euronymous was a person who wasproclaiming that he was the head
of the scene.
He was the person who knew deadbest.
He had made these necklaces anddetermined who was in, but he
wasn't willing to take up thecause and prove himself and the
message of these bands which, bythe way, there's nothing that's
directly saying on any of theserecords go burn churches.
Ron (26:35):
There's no, I heard, if you really slow down and play it
backwards yeah, it's yeah.
Doug (26:39):
That only works for the zeppelin record.
You should know this.
You were the guy who had the70s rebellious stage that's your
mother should have been.
I don't know what had happenedoh no, no, it's back.
Ron (26:49):
The Zeppelin ghost.
Doug (26:52):
Yeah.
So Varg was upset withEuronymous and because he in his
mind he was all talk and theresearch to let our viewers know
and to a lot of the researchfrom this I have taken, not only
from just interviews that havebeen done, but a great majority
of this has been documented inthe film Until the Light Takes
(27:14):
Us, which has direct interviewsfrom Varg while he is in prison.
Not to spoil what's going tohappen here, is Varg going to go
to prison?
Varg is going to go to prison.
Ron (27:24):
Wait and see.
Maybe he'll get out.
Doug (27:27):
He does wait and see, maybe he'll get out.
Don (27:28):
he does norway shockingly, shockingly light on their uh
sentences for murder if I wasever going to go to prison, I
would want to go to prison innorway.
Doug (27:38):
Yeah, and they look pretty nice yeah, his setup,
especially in the film, it'slike he's he has a computer, he
has all of his instruments inhis cell.
It it's unbelievable, can I?
Don (27:48):
ask.
So we're still talking.
You mentioned the meaning ofthe music or the meaning of the,
and I'm looking at, I'm looking, I'm at some images of the
people you've been talking about.
Sure, and I've got dead hereduring a performance.
Is that what are they trying?
What are they trying to convey?
Is it that that Norway is allabout violence and death?
(28:11):
Is that the pure message thatwe're supposed to be taking away
?
This?
Doug (28:14):
isn't to discredit adolescents, but much in the
adolescents.
Beware he's about to take ashot.
Watch out, kids, I'm coming foryou Much in the way that you
will see kids get verypassionate about something,
because passion is passion andit's time to be excited about
those things.
I think that maybe is the mostdisconnected aspect of this.
(28:38):
There seems to be some kind ofmisanthropic message that is
communicated through their musicand you hear it in the
isolation, in the way that theydescribe Norwegian weather and
the forests and the beauty ofthe moon, but then you hear it
in their anti-Christian messages.
(28:58):
You hear it but there's not.
Again, I think that this is theproblem is Varg, as I just said
, is thinking the way youexpress yourself in black metal,
as you go and you burn downchurches and to Euronymous it's
you have a great reputation formaking evil sounding music and
you're an evil guy.
That's the whole thing is likeI, my singer, committed suicide
(29:21):
and I made a necklace from thepieces of his brains and I'm
deeming who's important here.
And then I only mentioned theirname once earlier, but Dark
Throne, who released that album,a Blaze in the Northern Sky.
Their idea was we won't playlive at all, we'll just make
records, because we just lovethe way that this music sounds
and we love the musicexclusively and your music is
(29:42):
really what holds the value.
They are also some of the onlyones that are still making this
type of music today, and they'vegone so many different
directions.
But to be honest, don, I don'tthink there's an answer to that
question.
I think that it's very much inthe imagery at the end of this
is like the product of teenangst.
It seems to be a product ofteen angst of I don't feel like
(30:05):
I have a place in my world.
And is this a matter of you'reright?
Norway's culture's fallen apartand we need to go reclaim it
because the McDonald's opened up, which is something like Vark
talks about going by aMcDonald's and shooting at the
(30:26):
windows with a rifle after it'sclosed just to make a statement.
Or is this?
I am 16, 17 years old and Idon't know who.
Don (30:36):
I am.
I don't know if I have ananswer for this, but none of
these musicians are 16 or 17years old, right?
Doug (30:41):
When they first start making the music.
Yes, they are, but then theygrow up.
Yes, eventually they do yes.
Don (30:56):
And I guess that's so.
What you're describing to mesounds and if I'm not hearing it
, let me know.
It just sounds like can we makea sound in an image that will
make people uncomfortable?
Yes, like that seems to be thegoal, not because there's a
message that we want to convey.
I just want to do somethingthat is unconventional and will
make people uncomfortable.
Doug (31:07):
Yeah, and so, looking at the themes right, when does it
head?
I think that's a part of it,but then what's weird is to flip
that on its head from what youjust said.
Then there's also we want to dosomething unconventional that
makes people uncomfortable,because we're looking for the
people who are really cool withthat.
That's the other part of it iswho are the, the people that we
(31:29):
can separate from the unwashedmasses that understand what
we're trying to do?
But I almost think it's theself-defense mechanism of the
genre which is like but nobodyknows what we're trying to do,
so let's just see if you're onthe inside or not.
Ron (31:42):
Is it also like the way that teenagers will desire some
form of power over in a periodof their life where they're very
powerless, and so they'll goand create a cool skate
skateboard club down at the rinkand then one of them will be
chief of the skate rink, like,if you see them, like, oh, we're
(32:02):
gonna create our own scene andcircle and that and part of
achieving that power is byrefuting the actual holders of
the power the people, theestablishment.
And we keep talking about thepunk scene.
But I feel like that's anotherkind of important parallel,
because the english punk sceneappears in the 70s, during a
moment where, like it actuallyis like a very tumultuous time
for england and politics andtheir role in the world, and so
(32:25):
they also have a veryanti-establishment kind of ethos
.
But it's channeled morepolitically than let's just
pretend we're dead and stuff.
Like.
I don't know a whole lot aboutthe national history of Norway,
but I don't believe the samesort of environment exists at
the same time in the late 80s,early 90s for Norway.
Like you said, they'remiddle-class, comfortable, cozy
(32:46):
kids.
They don't really have like areal sort of something to
channel that energy and what wemight consider a productive or
interesting way.
So they have to invent this.
Yeah, let's just, that's a goodimpression of the voice.
Doug (32:58):
I like that, I and I, I don't know, and that's the thing
that fascinates me is.
The only part of our tale thatis left out is and then I want
to circle back to.
What we're talking about rightnow is eventually tensions build
between Varg, who's part ofButzum, and Euronymous from
(33:18):
Mayhem, where Euronymous beginsto basically speak out against
Varg and say that he might burnthe churches, but he's not part
of the real.
Again, it's like this bickeringand quarreling back and forth
of who is the most extreme andactually does this, and this
leads Varg to going to his house.
When somebody basically tellsVarg oh yeah, euronymous wants
to kill you, and Varg says okay,and again the one-upsmanship
(33:43):
continues, then I'll kill himfirst, Shows up at his house,
stabs him over 20 times andkills him and gets a sentence in
prison gets the maximumsentence in prison in Norway for
this.
And you can look at the imagesof Varg as he's being admitted
into prison.
(34:04):
The most famous image is himlike smiling at one of the
cameras after he gets hisconviction no-transcript, yeah,
(35:16):
what do you say about art andcreation Like these?
I would say are healthy outlets, right, as if it had stopped in
the music we had put into thelyrics and what we created, and
we're creating this thing thatpeople can also enjoy, or maybe
endure is a better word, right,that would have been a healthy
way to channel it, but now we'reseeing that this is quite the
opposite, that it's a group ofpeople that are creating this
(35:39):
and like the life is just asimportant as the art.
And then it becomes too seriousand again we have people who
have died because of it.
Ron (35:52):
Ron's looking uh, I had two thoughts and I forgot both of
them it's probably because Ioverextended myself on that last
portion there.
Don (36:01):
So you said you like some of this music the best.
You enjoy it.
You said you enjoy this musicthe best.
Very much so Even though it wasproduced by evil people who
committed murder and burned downhistoric monuments.
Ron (36:13):
Yes, but I would say that's most art in history.
Don (36:16):
I would twitch back on that , but go ahead in history.
Ron (36:20):
See, I would twist back on that, but go ahead don't.
But there's.
I feel like there is always anugly element to the production
of art and the and the marketingof art and who owns art.
Like there are terrible peoplereplete through the history of
hollywood and filmmaking andmusic industry, people who take
advantage of artists and cutthem out of deals and all sorts
of like, behind the sceneswheeling and dealing.
The medicis were thugs.
Yeah, yeah, some medici shit.
(36:42):
But yes, in this instance I'mnot trying to absolve these kids
of these crimes, but I'm sayingthis to me there's a quaint,
charming nature at least theydid it out in the open, at least
they they were.
They were literally backstabbingeach other or something, right?
I don't mean that literally,but there's always a messiness.
I I think to art and I don'treally want to slap them on the
(37:03):
wrist for being like you didn'tdo it the right way, like.
I think they are victims ofvery understandable and, I think
, teenage emotions andexperiences that everyone has
just amped up to a verydangerous degree, right?
That sort of desire to createsomething for yourself, to be
(37:23):
separate from what you considera bad authority, not necessarily
authoritarian, but somethinglike that, right?
And also that drive to begenuine, to be real I'm going to
be real evil, I'm going to bethe most evil.
I'm going to be the most realof you all, because you're all
fakers and posers, right?
Like?
How often is that also anelement of artistic scenes?
Who's real, who's not?
Who's doing it right?
(37:44):
Who?
What are the standards we'resetting ourselves for this genre
or whatever it is we're making?
Don (37:49):
I can only think of this one, really this one, unless the
serial killers have a secretwell, that I don't know about to
to the degree that they murdereach other.
Ron (37:56):
But this happens in, this happens in rap culture.
East west rivalry in america.
Doug (38:01):
Right, and that was the one I was gonna say the closest
one I can imagine is, yeah, therappers killing each other in
the 90s especially.
Ron (38:09):
That's like what I think of it which follows, I think, a
very similar trajectory of wehave to make this music that's
very anti establishment and willnot be marketable to a group of
people we don't like, namelywhite people or people in power,
and then we're just going tomake it as thug as possible and
and it's true to our experience,but then it's not really true
to most of those artistsexperience, because they don't
(38:30):
actually live like that and sothen they get called oh you're
not really thug enough, and blah, blah, blah and then they kill
each other yeah yeah, but to goback to your hollywood example
right, there's behind the scenesis one thing and absolutely I
agree there's sketchiness.
Don (38:45):
That happens in all industries behind the scenes and
as long as I don't see it, Idon't have to react to it.
Yeah, but then when an actordoes a fantastic performance and
they have a an au revoir ofperformances and oscars, and
then we find out that they drinkinfant blood or they are
pedophiles, which they all do bythe way but we shut down access
(39:08):
to their films Like I can thinkof artists right now that I
would like to enjoy their work,but I don't, because of what I
found out about the way thatthey've abused others or they've
done bad things.
So it it does affect likeobjectively it doesn't change
the performance that they did.
Sure, it's a great performance,but I don't allow myself to
enjoy that because of theexternal.
(39:30):
So the same thing here.
I'm wondering, and like thethug rap correlation makes a
little bit more sense to me then.
But I think I'm thinking aboutyour mom.
Oh my gosh, of course.
Why would she let you listen tomusic produced by murderers
that don't have a wholesomemessage for the young formative
mind to, or the young formingmind to adhere to?
Doug (39:51):
And I think it's funny that you were going that
direction.
Somebody I was thinking ofimmediately was Andy Warhol, as
weird as that is.
I was thinking of Andy becauseAndy Warhol, as weird as that is
.
I was thinking of Andy becausethere are so many memoirs, like
I think it was like an EdieSegwick's memoir or something
like that, of her saying likehow many times she had
considered taking her own life,like over just her treatment of
(40:12):
Andy, in the way that he treatedpeople essentially.
But Andy Warhol is maybe evenbeyond just his art.
How many galleries can you goin?
And it's, oh, there's Brilloboxes and soup cans.
It's gotta be another Andypiece.
But even beyond that, just likethe ways that, like we have
fonts or bold colors, or like wedo monochrome celebrities, like
things that like we don't evenassociate with, like instantly
(40:34):
saying Andy, but that's a partof our art, I think that he is
also representative of somebodythat's like such a vapid figure.
Yet all of us consume and thinkof art in a different way now
because of him.
Obviously, black metal is likethe most niche and small of the
genres, but I I think that's thedifficulty is, I think, for me
(40:59):
I find it impossible.
Yeah, like the.
I think I would ask you whatyou mean by not allowing
yourself to enjoy theperformance.
It's like is it like anon-consumer Like this person
has done this?
He's in this film, so I will nolonger watch that film?
It almost, but I would almostsay that's different.
(41:21):
That's consumption versusenjoyment, because I think
enjoyment is something that'slike you.
It's like a snap decision thatyou make if I enjoy this or I
don't.
It interferes with right.
Don (41:33):
So it interferes because when I'm watching it I can't
think but the terrible thingsthat that person did to whatever
victim they had Right, so it'snot, it's what I did enjoy.
I can't enjoy because right.
So I listening to the music,sure, if we're all pretending
that we're dead and we're allpretending that we're Satanists,
or pretending that whateverversus oh no, we're really going
(41:56):
to go kill people.
That a different right element.
That would interfere with myenjoyment.
If we go to the concert andwe're not sure who's coming home
, that wouldn't be fun for me100 yeah, important to say this
sort of violence doesn't reallyspiral out of this group.
Ron (42:12):
Right, though I think it is worth saying the instances the
story of varg and and eronymousis contained between them right
the rest of the scene and the.
There are otherg and Hieronymusis contained between them right
the rest of the scene and the.
There are other groups andartists who make this kind of
music and, like you said earlier, they eschew this kind of thing
, like they are not going aroundburning churches and trying to
kill their friends.
This is a kind of extremeexample.
Doug (42:34):
Yeah, arguably the most extreme, which is why, of course
, we bring it to the uncannery.
But I, yeah, what I take out ofit is knowing and I think that
this is something that is likeshared amongst people that have
talked about this is knowingthat the sound of the records
and then what's representedthere, especially for those that
like make not this style ofmusic in terms of we're trying
(42:56):
to accomplish the same goals,but maybe we like borrow some of
the things aesthetically fromthe sounds of the music, which I
definitely do is that therecords in of themselves, kind
of speak towards a sound that isunique, that now has a message
(43:18):
that can be far more positive,and so it's.
I, yeah, I don't know.
I think it's a good thing to beconfronted about, because the
honest answer is I do love therecord still.
So, yeah, like, how do youbegin to separate that?
And I, honestly I think thatit's a certain amount of almost
surgical precision that you haveto be listening to the guitar
(43:41):
tracks, vocals, drums and bassas its own isolated vacuum.
I think that's.
That is what it is, becausethere's not.
I don't interact with thismusic in a way where I am taking
it in, for lack of a betterterm, like taking it in
spiritually.
That's what I would say.
Ron (44:02):
Yeah.
Doug (44:03):
As esoteric as this sounds .
Ron (44:04):
There is like a lot of ways that people listen to music and
, like when you're a teenager,you identify by music, right,
like it become.
You are like listening to thelyrics and you're trying to form
meanings out of them and tryingto find connections and I feel,
as I'm older, I just reallywant to.
There's a different kind ofenjoyment where I don't really
need to know much or evenanything about the person who
(44:26):
made it.
Does it just sound cool?
Does it make me feel a neatemotion or enjoyment, or, yeah,
maybe it's just nostalgiasometimes now, yeah, like does
it remind me about a time and Idon't know, for this kind music,
I do divorce these people andtheir actions from the art and
it doesn't really impact myenjoyment of the art and it is
interesting to try and figureout why.
(44:48):
But I guess it's sometimes Ijust feel like people.
I guess to me it's not like theart created the tragedy, right,
it's like the people made thetragedy and they decisions they
made and factors relating totheir environment and how they
were raised or what they weredoing those led to the, to both
(45:09):
the art and the tragedy, but Idon't see like the tragedy
arising from the art.
Therefore, the art is safe toenjoy.
I don't know, does that makeany sense?
Doug (45:16):
it does, but it also, yeah , it does.
The art's the cool thing fromthe tragedy.
Ron (45:20):
It would be more tragic to lose the art as well as the
people, the people who areactually harmed in these.
Doug (45:26):
It's interesting to think of it from third perspective,
because now it'll be the thirdtime I've brought up dark throne
that group specifically the.
The drummer Gilf was asked aboutall of them and he brought up
several things about Euronymousand Varg.
And one of the things that hesaid about Varg is we don't talk
at all anymore because he wasmore interested in the politics
(45:51):
and social situations that cameup because of this music.
And I was purely interested inthe music and when that became
an issue we went our separateways.
And when he talks aboutEuronymous he said I will always
be grateful that I was able totake that guitar tone from him,
but at a certain point all of usrealized that there was only
madness there.
It's something that they'vebrought up and so, knowing
(46:14):
that's somebody who knew both ofthem personally, I think that
they it's interesting to hearhis perspective and taking on
like he continued the art on theside of, I would rather make
the music exclusively instead ofcontinue to attach myself to
what the ideology behind this is.
The music is the most importantthing there.
Don (46:36):
So do you listen to this music?
Because you're still rebelling.
Doug (46:40):
It's a great question I think that for me, I admire and
maybe this goes for all art,because I can see myself with
almost any medium, being intothis, whether it's like film,
canvas, sculpture, and I don'tlike it could be anything.
When something is striving togo outside of the box, I'm
(47:03):
always going to want to be yeah,like I always generally am
drawn to it in some way, but Ithink I generally listen to it.
Now, for similar reasons thatI'm interested in what people
are doing with these colors onthe canvas.
I happen to be drawn to thesecolors on the canvas and I want
to see what these paintings looklike.
(47:24):
So when I think of some of themore modern artists that are
blending other genres in like Iknow Ron, we've talked about
Deaf Haven before and I thinkabout Wolves in the Throne Room,
which is like a group fromOregon that kind of focuses on
their, like, local surroundingsand that's the the focal point
of their music I just I see alot of beauty in it.
I think that's what it is.
(47:45):
I see a lot of beauty in it ina very unique perspective.
But with that I wonder if thosebands that I love so much now
would exist if not for theattention that those cases got.
Don (48:01):
It's hard to say there you go, ron, forewarned is forearmed
, so be careful.
I've been to that church theone that he burned down, so
unfortunate Not before it wasburnt down, but I was there
after it was rebuilt Beautiful.
Doug (48:20):
Did they have any information on the burnings
before it was burnt down?
But I was there after it wasrebuilt, beautiful.
Don (48:24):
Did they have any information on the burnings
today?
So it was, so I didn't.
I didn't know about this.
This is actually your, yourstory.
Here is first time that I haveput that all together.
But it's surrounded like it'sin the middle, it's outside
Bergen, norway, and it's a shortdrive out Like I think we took
a tram and then walked like 10minutes, something like that and
it's surrounded by a reallylike significant security fence
(48:45):
and it's just like literally inthe middle of the forest.
You have to walk through thisquiet neighborhood of quaint
little Norwegian houses and thenthere's this giant church and
it's got these like significantsecurity walls and it's like why
would you like?
And you go inside the churchand there's nothing
materialistically valuable.
There's not like gold and it'scarvings and it's beautiful, but
it's just bare wood.
And so we asked somebody likewhy, like what's?
(49:08):
And they did say becausesomebody decided to burn it down
or somebody thought that it wasa good idea to burn all
churches down, or something likethat.
And that was as much as we gotand it clearly was.
I'm irritated by that.
Don't ask me another question.
Type of because it was, it wasa local.
It was the person working therethat we asked, but it wasn't
like here.
Let me tell you the whole story.
It was like some jerk did thisand we had to rebuild it.
Ron (49:28):
Yeah, takes a drag of their cigarette, hands you a Bersam
cassette.
Yeah, says it's all here, right?
Doug (49:37):
Yeah, yeah.
I need to go collect mythoughts and think about this
for a moment.
But for the next episode.
I think you should listen tomore wholesome music.
I was just going to say Imight've burned my copies of all
these records, who knows, inprotest.
Don (49:50):
Burned them onto your computer, onto your CD.
Ron (49:54):
Lime wire baby.
Doug (49:56):
Oh, I got to shout out the good old days.
That's right.
Don (50:00):
Thanks, doug.
I appreciate the.
It's a genre of music that I amaware exists, but I don't
listen to, I don't enjoy, Idon't know very much about it.
Ron (50:08):
Yeah, next time tell us about where butt rock came from,
please, oh yeah.
Doug (50:11):
We'll give you all of that .
We'll maybe do some impressionstoo.
I pride myself on my butt.
Rock vocals Good yeah,fantastic.
Ron (50:19):
Thank you, gentlemen, thank you.
Doug (50:34):
Thank you.
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of the
Uncannery.
I am Doug.
Ron (00:20):
I am Ron.
Don (00:24):
And.
Doug (00:24):
I have a robotic cadence and I'm Ron and I have a robotic
cadence, and I'm Don.
Today I have a question for you,gentlemen.
I want to hear about theteenage years for just a moment.
I want to hear about theteenage years.
Did you have an anthem that youlistened to, that kind of I
don't know defined youradolescence?
(00:44):
Was it rebellious in nature?
Was there a style of music thatyou liked, that mom just didn't
want any more of?
Turn that rack at all.
Did you have anything like that?
I want to start here.
Ron (00:58):
No, I was so not rebellious or cool as a teenager, like I
didn't really listen to popularmusic until probably high school
and then, I think it was justmy buddies, like my buddy's dad,
who drove us around and toschool he just listened to
classic rock.
So when I got into popularmusic it was like stuff from the
(01:18):
seventies and no one wasyelling at me to stop playing
that Cause everyone liked it.
Doug (01:24):
Turn that rush record off young man.
It's 40 years old.
Ron (01:29):
I did get really into Def Leppard.
I really loved Def Leppard inhigh school.
Doug (01:35):
What era of Def Leppard are we talking about?
Like the 80s?
Pyromania, pyromania, hysteria,yeah, oh yeah, hysteria.
Ron (01:48):
I think that's still one of the single best produced albums
ever made.
Doug (01:50):
I would agree they still pay that guy an exorbitant
amount.
That might be a whole separatepodcast.
The guy who produced that.
He is still looked after.
People are still going afterhim saying produce our records
and he makes unbelievableamounts of money to get that
sound and everybody don.
Ron (02:04):
How are you rebelling?
Don (02:06):
I'm not a I'm not a rebel um, but trying to think about
the anthem song.
Like I, I have very strongmemories of two specific
categories of music, but I don'tknow, an anthem might be too
strong, like the things thatwould just naturally pop into
the cd player on my car when wewent out.
Driving would be b-52s, cosmicthing, cd yeah, especially
(02:27):
deadbeat club was our favorite.
And then and this one is astrange memory because I have
super strong memories of the cdand I can remember what it looks
like, but I can't name a singlesong on it but I could probably
.
If we played it, I couldprobably sing along.
Ron (02:41):
Okay is kerosene hat by cracker oh yeah, yeah, you're
taking it back, okay, and butneither of these made any family
members mad I never reallyplayed music around my family,
so they never had theopportunity really to opine okay
I feel like this is like maybea generation like by that time
we had walkman and stuff and youwould just go listen to your
(03:03):
music on your headphones.
Okay, I know, I don't even Idon.
I didn't know anyone who waslike making their parents mad
because they were playing musicon the record player or anything
.
Doug (03:13):
Yeah, For me things started to change because of the
parental advisory explicitlabel that was on CDs.
I remember really wanting LimpBizkit's, the Chocolate Starfish
and the Hot Dog Flavored Water.
I wanted it so badly becausethere was a promotion.
It was like a wrestling promothat had one of the songs in it
(03:36):
and I couldn't.
I would be praying that thecommercial would come on so I
could hear the clip of the raprock all over again.
Don (03:43):
And.
Doug (03:44):
I remember I think that's what started it I remember
bargaining with my mom sayingI'm only going to listen to
songs one, seven, nine and 12 onthis.
None of them are explicit.
Those are the only ones.
And then, of course, I'mlistening to the whole thing.
Don (03:58):
but I did your mother not want you to listen to it because
of the sticker or because shehad listened to the songs and
determined that the content wasnot appropriate for young
Douglas's ears?
Doug (04:08):
She is.
So no, she had not heard thealbum, she simply saw the
sticker, saw the album cover,which was just very kind of
lurid art, and I think she madeher decision right then.
And there I don't know if Ineed my son listening to this.
I think that's what started itfor me.
Maybe it is just me then.
Yeah, that was it.
And then Linkin Park yeah, thatwas a big part of it, okay.
Don (04:32):
And did you choose music because your mother didn't want
you to listen to it?
Doug (04:36):
or did you choose?
Don (04:37):
music because you liked it and you like this mom?
Doug (04:41):
You don't.
That's what I want now.
You like this mom, you don't.
That's what I want now.
Don (04:54):
No nothing that evil.
Doug (04:55):
No, this was just, I think , the second.
The teenage hormones started tokick in, like those
prepubescent moments where yougo.
Things are changing.
I just attached myself to moreaggressive music immediately.
That was the outlet, because Irealized I could have the
feelings without any of theviolence, the anger.
It was just I could enjoy themusic and I felt like I could
channel it through that.
I think that's where thingschanged.
(05:16):
Yeah, it was around that time.
Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit Iremember those were the two that
were the discussion of, I'm notsure.
Ron (05:22):
And it's really hard to say why you like anything as an
adolescent, I feel Because it'slike there's so many spheres of
influence.
Was it someone you knew?
Was it someone you wanted toknow?
Was it something you thoughtwould make you look cool?
Was it?
What were the music?
There was always musical actsthat you listened to in deep
privacy and told no one about.
For me, that was the shins.
I was like no one can learn.
(05:46):
I like the shins.
Doug (05:47):
How sad.
I love the shins.
Ron (05:49):
That was very public, I do too, but I think I don't even
that.
Doesn't even sound like anembarrassing group to me anymore
, but I think somewhere at myschool I must have heard ron at
home in his bedroom listening1940s musicals, musicals Now
we're talking, now we're talking.
It's all cats for me.
Doug (06:09):
And that I really hope that neither of you gentlemen
bring to the podcast cats.
I just can't do it.
Ron (06:15):
I think now I will.
Actually I'm very fascinated bycats, but that's a discussion
for another time.
The musical cats.
Yeah, I've only been introducedto it in the last couple of
years, but the fact that it wasas popular as it was, I think,
said a lot about a culture indecline.
Doug (06:31):
Okay, you always find a way to sell me, papa.
Don (06:35):
And you did it again, yeah.
Doug (06:37):
I'll take it.
Yeah, no, there's too much, allright.
So why do I bring this up?
Today?
We are going to talk about thisjourney that I started on of
the rebellious music led me intoheavy metal music and I think
that even before I was buyingrecords, I think that the
genesis of this I've alwayslooked at it as in fifth grade
(06:58):
my uncle gave me an Iron Maidenalbum and that took me a very
different direction.
Just because the energy thatwas involved the operatic
singing, the guitar solos I justI loved all of it immediately
and I think that's what kind ofstarted to steer me on that path
.
And there's a weird thing thathappens with metal that when you
really get into it it becomeslike this almost depraved act of
(07:22):
looking for what's heavier thanthat?
Don (07:23):
what's heavier than that?
Doug (07:25):
And that eventually led me to the genre that is known as
black metal Very much.
What do you mean by heavierthan that?
That is a great question.
So if you look at the Genesis,many people are going to put
Black Sabbath as the Genesis ofheavy metal.
There were groups before that,but they really were the first
(07:46):
prototype for that.
Heavier involves we're becomingless melodic.
The vocals are going fromscreams into territory.
That yeah, like we're goingfrom the singing to the screams.
We're playing drums at a speedthat sounds like a machine gun,
(08:08):
to where it's described as ablast beat.
That's like a very common term.
We're borrowing from otherextreme genres of music like
hardcore, punk, rock.
We're borrowing from you nameit.
It's just becoming a morewarped and isolated version.
It's more it's harsher to theear.
I would say Not that there'snot a lot of craftsmanship to it
(08:30):
.
I definitely have put on many arecord and people say there's
no musicianship in this and I goyou try to play this because
there is.
But eventually I land on blackmetal.
Don (08:39):
So it has to do with the musical sound of it, not with
the content of the lyrics.
Doug (08:45):
for example, it also could have to do with that.
There are so many sub genres.
You have your industrial metalthat has a lot to do with like
kind of an industrial soundmeaning factory, like kind of
noises and drum machines thatkind of create a droning
machine-like sound.
You have death metal, which isyou're also screamy and like big
(09:07):
drum beats and things, but it'sfocused around the name of the
band that is, the originator ofthe genre is death and so they
were trying to emulate thatsound, but it's characterized
with like very low, gutturalkind of screams.
Don (09:20):
See, that's really strange, because I always associate
death with being quiet.
Ron (09:24):
Yeah, If these metal heads they don't go gentle into that.
Good night if you will, butthere's like this sort of the
idea of being heavy does involvedarkness and spookiness and, I
guess, things that areantithetical to popular music at
the time which is usually aboutlike love songs and upbeat
(09:44):
songs and I'm driving to thecoffee shop songs, and and then
it's like punk, right where punkshows up and is we're gonna
play the music?
really bad, we're not gonna bevery commercial.
And then it becomes verycommercial and I think they were
trying to like, oh, punk fail,let's do it, let's go further by
being like, yeah, by talkingabout death and blood and ghosts
(10:05):
and JR Tolkien.
Doug (10:08):
Watch out for JR.
That's all I got to say.
Yeah, a lot of that.
But it also has to do with, Ithink of genres like doom, metal
, or sometimes it's like thewhole podcast is actually just
going to be genres, nevermind.
Don (10:20):
We're not just talking about black metal.
Doug (10:22):
This is going to be one hour of every sub genre in
existence, but I think of doommetal or like stoner metal, like
the idea of the slowestpossible, heaviest riffs that
are grooving bluesy but just arelike played at the slowest
speed humanly possible, but thatwould be considered heavy.
Just as much as Metallica'sfirst four albums would be
(10:44):
considered heavy.
It's a Metallica's first fouralbums would be considered heavy
.
It's a.
It actually is a great question.
It needs a book to be written.
What is heavy just to study fromthat perspective.
So black metal is a weird one,because they very much were at
the outskirts and fringes ofwhat extreme metal was and they
(11:05):
were trying to take it to, intheir minds, probably the most
extreme places, even rejectingwhat was probably selling.
I don't know, like maybe if yousold 10,000 albums, which maybe
that seems like a lot, butinternationally selling 10,000
albums is probably not that muchthey were trying to say that
was commercial.
These black metal groups, if wedo a pressing of 500 and sell
(11:27):
out, that's it, that's how rare.
Don (11:29):
we are Black metal trying not to make money doing what
they're doing.
Doug (11:33):
Oh yeah, the money was never important.
It was all about the reputationand of course we'll get into it
.
Ron (11:38):
It's like a scene right.
Doug (11:39):
Yeah.
Ron (11:41):
Is it the same as artificially generated like?
Because it's scarce, it must becool.
Doug (11:47):
I think that there is some of that.
I very much still like themusic a lot.
I actually make this kind ofmusic now but there's something
to it, especially this veryspecific era that we're going to
look at, in the early 90s, thatkind of set the tone for what
this is, and it's changed a lotnow.
(12:08):
But, yeah, there was a certainexclusivity to it that I don't
know.
I was drawn to as I was likelooking at the history of metal
Cause I was also fascinated bythat, like going okay, here's
Iron Maiden, and that leads tothis band Down the rabbit hole
we go, and it's the NFTs of.
Don (12:22):
That's right Once you get that print.
Doug (12:25):
That's it, the ones we're going to look at today.
We're going to the 1993 blackmetal murders.
Actually, this involves bandsthat I discovered their music
and I discovered they killedeach other.
So it's quite the tale.
And I'd like to start it with aquote from one of the front men
(12:46):
of the bands that we're goingto be talking about, and not
only the front man, but heactually played every single
instrument on every single oneof his records.
His name is Varg Vikernes has aone-man black metal project
called Bortsom.
He said youth are not being toldwhat to do, or they're being
told what to do, butinstinctively they know it's
(13:06):
wrong.
Christianity is good, americais good, but we knew deep down,
we knew this wasn't it?
This is something that he wasreflecting on as he was
producing his first few albumsas being a Norwegian musician,
and he felt very ostracized fromhis community.
He saw the world changingaround him and he felt that
heacized from his community.
He saw the world changingaround him and he felt that he
was losing his cultural identityand losing his mind.
(13:32):
In my opinion and we're goingto break down some of what that
is.
So shall we start at thebeginning, please do.
Don (13:40):
Okay.
Doug (13:41):
In the late 80s, as we're talking about.
With heavy heavy metal gettingheavier, we're seeing that bands
are pushing boundaries in termsof vocal attempts, as I was
saying, how noisy things can get, how fast you can play, how
slow you can play, and peopleare beginning to experiment that
genre I told you about a momentago.
Death metal emerges from thisband named Death that has very
(14:05):
low, growly vocals, that'sincorporating elements of a lot
of the eighties music or theeighties metal music.
That's there, but there's a newextremity that is being hit
that starts to attract groups ofmusicians that want to play
this style of music.
That music is American in itsbase.
(14:25):
That's where this starts, butthese records make their way to
Norway.
A group of teenagers in Norwaywho started to play this music
realized that they wanted tocreate their own identity and
their own sound and they pushedthemselves towards the more evil
tendencies of some of thegroups in the more extreme
genres and they said what can wedo to really push this in the
(14:49):
direction that they wanted to?
A band emerges from thisexperiment called Mayhem.
The year is 1987 and theyrelease their Death Crush EP or,
as I have heard it, mostinterviewed and talked about the
Death Crush EP, which is veryfamous for the album cover.
(15:11):
I shouldn't be laughing, it'sjust, it's so extreme.
It is the severed hands of aprisoner that are hung up on a
wire with a red background andthe band logo.
So they're really making astatement in terms of how
extreme the imagery is on thefront.
They have not played a liveshow.
(15:32):
They essentially have justreleased the record and have
circulated this around the teensin Norway who are interested in
this scene, just on itsreputation alone.
People are being drawn to Norwaybecause this is such a unique
sound.
The guitarist, euronymous, kindof created something that was
completely unique to them at thetime and actually Varg Vikernes
(15:54):
was part of the project as well.
At this time.
It was this group and thiseventually shoots into a bunch
of other bands.
This inspires these musiciansto start creating albums and
Norway essentially becomes thehub of black metal.
This is the place you will see.
On the backs of some of thealbums it will say true,
(16:14):
norwegian black metal.
And if your bell is ringing alittle bit for sounds a little
nationalistic, did they ever getinto slightly racially?
Did they ever get intoterritory where they maybe made
some insensitive racial comments?
Ron (16:28):
Absolutely, and we're getting there, not the
Norwegians, they're so nice.
I mean, the Norwegian kids arepunks, yeah.
Doug (16:38):
Yeah, and that's the thing is it does feel a bit like punk
rock.
It's the idea of we're not justgoing to be like this other
group.
This is our thing, we'll do itour way, which is the thing that
Iminded too, because thesegroups decide this is the way
(17:06):
that it should sound, which wasthe opposite of what they wanted
to do originally.
Dark Throne another group in1992, so we're fast-forwarding a
little bit releases A Blaze inthe Northern Sky around the same
time that Burzum that I talkedabout earlier releases their
self-titled album a month later.
These albums are landmark inestablishing okay, this is the
(17:32):
scene.
These are the groups that areputting forth this music and
this is what the sound is.
And we even have groups thatare changing their sound
intentionally to sound more likethis mayhem death crush record
that had come out.
This is changing the way thatpeople play music.
Don you seem to have anacquisitive look on your face?
Do you have questions?
Don (17:53):
well, I yeah I do.
So.
You keep talking about theirbelief in the sound of a music
or that that it should sound acertain way, and but at the same
time, we started with theirbelief that they weren't going
to commercialize.
So are they like mild manneredbusinessmen during the day, and
then they turn into these blackmetal?
It sounds like a cult is whatit sounds like.
(18:14):
There's a belief that it has tosound this way.
You can call them ghouls, yeah.
Doug (18:19):
I would argue that there is very cult like behavior in
this because it's the kidsalmost all of them are between
the ages of 16 and 20 that arein these projects.
And that is the great irony ofthis is they listen to already
this very fringe music and saywe're going to create our own
thing and make our own sound.
(18:44):
They're making a decision.
This is the sound, which Ithink was the purpose the whole
time was to not do that, likethey were supposed to just
individually express themselves,and then they, yeah, almost
sell themselves short by sayingthis is the way that it should
sound.
No, these are very misguidedyouth.
So, to go back to our quotefrom the beginning, when they
(19:05):
were teenagers, the way Vargdescribes it is the parents
generally were not parentingthem much.
It's like a group ofmiddle-class Norwegians that
essentially have parents thatsay just do good in school, do
your thing, and aren't reallyinvested in the kids' lives as
much.
So they turn to music.
And once you have this figurein Mayhem, no-transcript.
Ron (19:56):
Doug currently has a the book of revelations out in front
of him and he's just pickingrandom adjectives and proper
nouns from there.
Doug (20:04):
This is really a cult like study.
So I start my cult and I wantto welcome the two of you to our
first meeting.
Ron (20:10):
The Uncanna cult.
Doug (20:11):
Great.
Ron (20:17):
I love it.
Doug (20:18):
And a quick shout out to the board game let's Summon
Demons.
Just unbelievable replay,valuable that we've had.
We're looking for sponsors.
I'm just saying we'd love tohost.
Ron (20:29):
We've had some've had some good fun.
I think I won both times,didn't I?
Doug (20:35):
yes, yeah, I'm good at it, give us money.
Don (20:38):
How do you spell pander?
Doug (20:39):
I'm not spelled with a s, with two lines through.
I think that's it.
So this is all we've discussedso far is mayhem has created an
ep.
This leads other people to wantto create this sound.
That's the focal point is, thisgenre of music is created and
that's what I was captivated byat the time was like okay, this
does sound different, and I lovethe kind of neoclassical
(21:03):
melodies that were involved.
I like the fact that wecurrently and I would say that
we don't have the, we're not ina LA grade studio right now.
We could at least say that eventhe stuff that we're sitting
here recording this podcast withright now would be considered
the top of the line, highestquality recording equipment that
(21:24):
you could possibly use torecord something like a black
metal record.
There are tales of Varg using acomputer PC mic like what you
would use to talk to friendsonline during a video game or
during a Discord.
Call is essentially what he wasusing to record all of the
vocals for his album.
The guitars were often directlyinto the mixing board or
(21:44):
8-track player and thedistortion was created by just
clipping the audio as high as itcould possibly go, without any
natural amplification.
I just was interested in theidea of the diy ethic of it and
I liked a lot of the recordsthat happens a lot, though,
right with like new music sceneformation.
Ron (22:01):
Like you, I feel like the music scene is a sort of or a
boros, where a scene pops up.
It it's all very DIY, it'syoung people figuring something
out.
It finds a market, becomes big,then you bring in the
microphones and the cool stuffand then becomes the kind of
blase or passe.
And then and then a new, a newgroup of gutter punks rises up
(22:26):
from the ashes and they they gottheir weird Apple laptops and
their garage banding some weirdstuff, and now they're hot,
absolutely yeah.
Doug (22:35):
Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say and once
you lose that, mama got to cryto papa.
Nobody's ever said that, by theway.
Who's papa Didn't have to makeit sad man as I'm learning the
backgrounds of all these bands,I'm not taking it incredibly
serious, I'm just like, okay, sohere they are.
A lot of the lyrics verge oneither pagan or satanic, and
(23:00):
that's common for metal thatyou're going to use something
that's outlandish to go towards,to go towards.
They were a bit more seriousthan I originally had taken in.
So I'd like to go to April of1991.
Mayhem has played a few liveshows.
At this point I want to talkabout their vocalist.
(23:22):
I know that I said Euronymouswas the name of the guitarist.
It's a little bit easier toremember the singer's name.
Ironically or literally,depending on how you look at it,
his name is Dead.
That's, his name is Dead Dead.
The singer of Mayhem wasnotorious for the style of paint
that he wore on his face.
(23:43):
He was famous for his stageperformances in which he would
lacerate himself live.
It's very extreme performancesthat he would give, and what is
tragic about all of this is thatbehavior was I believe it seems
(24:03):
to be somewhat of a cry forhelp, because in April of 1991,
he took his own life.
There is speculation thatEuronymous was encouraging him
to do this.
There is speculation thatDeadhead asked potentially for
help and was not getting it tocontinue to keep the grim
(24:25):
atmosphere of the band alive.
But the young man did take hislife, and that was supposed to
be the end of mayhem.
What Euronymous decided to dois Dead had taken his own life
by.
Basically, he had shot himselfwith a shotgun.
Euronymous opened up the cabindoor to where he was living
(24:45):
because he hadn't heard from himin a few days, and found dead
there, and instead of callingthe police, he decided to take
high definition photographs ofthe body and collect pieces of
the skull, to which he would, inthe future, make necklaces from
these fragments and would giveto people that he deemed worthy
(25:08):
to be in the scene.
It's at this point that we veerinto the territory of.
There's something very wronghere, to say the least.
Varg Vikernes, who was in theband and had left the band, is
now part of this band.
Bartsum was frustrated with thefact that, essentially, the
(25:30):
scene had grown into somethingof Euronymous being a person who
wanted the glamour of theviolence and murder that had
surrounded this politicalmessage and, in the subsequent
years, actually created a groupcalled, I believe, the Inner
(25:52):
Circle that would burn churchesin Norway, and we're talking
between four and 600 year oldchurches that were in Norway
because they represented thestain of Christianity on pagan
land, and Varg was especiallydisturbed at the fact that
(26:13):
Euronymous was a person who wasproclaiming that he was the head
of the scene.
He was the person who knew deadbest.
He had made these necklaces anddetermined who was in, but he
wasn't willing to take up thecause and prove himself and the
message of these bands which, bythe way, there's nothing that's
directly saying on any of theserecords go burn churches.
Ron (26:35):
There's no, I heard, if you really slow down and play it
backwards yeah, it's yeah.
Doug (26:39):
That only works for the zeppelin record.
You should know this.
You were the guy who had the70s rebellious stage that's your
mother should have been.
I don't know what had happenedoh no, no, it's back.
Ron (26:49):
The Zeppelin ghost.
Doug (26:52):
Yeah.
So Varg was upset withEuronymous and because he in his
mind he was all talk and theresearch to let our viewers know
and to a lot of the researchfrom this I have taken, not only
from just interviews that havebeen done, but a great majority
of this has been documented inthe film Until the Light Takes
(27:14):
Us, which has direct interviewsfrom Varg while he is in prison.
Not to spoil what's going tohappen here, is Varg going to go
to prison?
Varg is going to go to prison.
Ron (27:24):
Wait and see.
Maybe he'll get out.
Doug (27:27):
He does wait and see, maybe he'll get out.
Don (27:28):
he does norway shockingly, shockingly light on their uh
sentences for murder if I wasever going to go to prison, I
would want to go to prison innorway.
Doug (27:38):
Yeah, and they look pretty nice yeah, his setup,
especially in the film, it'slike he's he has a computer, he
has all of his instruments inhis cell.
It it's unbelievable, can I?
Don (27:48):
ask.
So we're still talking.
You mentioned the meaning ofthe music or the meaning of the,
and I'm looking at, I'm looking, I'm at some images of the
people you've been talking about.
Sure, and I've got dead hereduring a performance.
Is that what are they trying?
What are they trying to convey?
Is it that that Norway is allabout violence and death?
(28:11):
Is that the pure message thatwe're supposed to be taking away
?
This?
Doug (28:14):
isn't to discredit adolescents, but much in the
adolescents.
Beware he's about to take ashot.
Watch out, kids, I'm coming foryou Much in the way that you
will see kids get verypassionate about something,
because passion is passion andit's time to be excited about
those things.
I think that maybe is the mostdisconnected aspect of this.
(28:38):
There seems to be some kind ofmisanthropic message that is
communicated through their musicand you hear it in the
isolation, in the way that theydescribe Norwegian weather and
the forests and the beauty ofthe moon, but then you hear it
in their anti-Christian messages.
(28:58):
You hear it but there's not.
Again, I think that this is theproblem is Varg, as I just said
, is thinking the way youexpress yourself in black metal,
as you go and you burn downchurches and to Euronymous it's
you have a great reputation formaking evil sounding music and
you're an evil guy.
That's the whole thing is likeI, my singer, committed suicide
(29:21):
and I made a necklace from thepieces of his brains and I'm
deeming who's important here.
And then I only mentioned theirname once earlier, but Dark
Throne, who released that album,a Blaze in the Northern Sky.
Their idea was we won't playlive at all, we'll just make
records, because we just lovethe way that this music sounds
and we love the musicexclusively and your music is
(29:42):
really what holds the value.
They are also some of the onlyones that are still making this
type of music today, and they'vegone so many different
directions.
But to be honest, don, I don'tthink there's an answer to that
question.
I think that it's very much inthe imagery at the end of this
is like the product of teenangst.
It seems to be a product ofteen angst of I don't feel like
(30:05):
I have a place in my world.
And is this a matter of you'reright?
Norway's culture's fallen apartand we need to go reclaim it
because the McDonald's opened up, which is something like Vark
talks about going by aMcDonald's and shooting at the
(30:26):
windows with a rifle after it'sclosed just to make a statement.
Or is this?
I am 16, 17 years old and Idon't know who.
Don (30:36):
I am.
I don't know if I have ananswer for this, but none of
these musicians are 16 or 17years old, right?
Doug (30:41):
When they first start making the music.
Yes, they are, but then theygrow up.
Yes, eventually they do yes.
Don (30:56):
And I guess that's so.
What you're describing to mesounds and if I'm not hearing it
, let me know.
It just sounds like can we makea sound in an image that will
make people uncomfortable?
Yes, like that seems to be thegoal, not because there's a
message that we want to convey.
I just want to do somethingthat is unconventional and will
make people uncomfortable.
Doug (31:07):
Yeah, and so, looking at the themes right, when does it
head?
I think that's a part of it,but then what's weird is to flip
that on its head from what youjust said.
Then there's also we want to dosomething unconventional that
makes people uncomfortable,because we're looking for the
people who are really cool withthat.
That's the other part of it iswho are the, the people that we
(31:29):
can separate from the unwashedmasses that understand what
we're trying to do?
But I almost think it's theself-defense mechanism of the
genre which is like but nobodyknows what we're trying to do,
so let's just see if you're onthe inside or not.
Ron (31:42):
Is it also like the way that teenagers will desire some
form of power over in a periodof their life where they're very
powerless, and so they'll goand create a cool skate
skateboard club down at the rinkand then one of them will be
chief of the skate rink, like,if you see them, like, oh, we're
(32:02):
gonna create our own scene andcircle and that and part of
achieving that power is byrefuting the actual holders of
the power the people, theestablishment.
And we keep talking about thepunk scene.
But I feel like that's anotherkind of important parallel,
because the english punk sceneappears in the 70s, during a
moment where, like it actuallyis like a very tumultuous time
for england and politics andtheir role in the world, and so
(32:25):
they also have a veryanti-establishment kind of ethos
.
But it's channeled morepolitically than let's just
pretend we're dead and stuff.
Like.
I don't know a whole lot aboutthe national history of Norway,
but I don't believe the samesort of environment exists at
the same time in the late 80s,early 90s for Norway.
Like you said, they'remiddle-class, comfortable, cozy
(32:46):
kids.
They don't really have like areal sort of something to
channel that energy and what wemight consider a productive or
interesting way.
So they have to invent this.
Yeah, let's just, that's a goodimpression of the voice.
Doug (32:58):
I like that, I and I, I don't know, and that's the thing
that fascinates me is.
The only part of our tale thatis left out is and then I want
to circle back to.
What we're talking about rightnow is eventually tensions build
between Varg, who's part ofButzum, and Euronymous from
(33:18):
Mayhem, where Euronymous beginsto basically speak out against
Varg and say that he might burnthe churches, but he's not part
of the real.
Again, it's like this bickeringand quarreling back and forth
of who is the most extreme andactually does this, and this
leads Varg to going to his house.
When somebody basically tellsVarg oh yeah, euronymous wants
to kill you, and Varg says okay,and again the one-upsmanship
(33:43):
continues, then I'll kill himfirst, Shows up at his house,
stabs him over 20 times andkills him and gets a sentence in
prison gets the maximumsentence in prison in Norway for
this.
And you can look at the imagesof Varg as he's being admitted
into prison.
(34:04):
The most famous image is himlike smiling at one of the
cameras after he gets hisconviction no-transcript, yeah,
(35:16):
what do you say about art andcreation Like these?
I would say are healthy outlets, right, as if it had stopped in
the music we had put into thelyrics and what we created, and
we're creating this thing thatpeople can also enjoy, or maybe
endure is a better word, right,that would have been a healthy
way to channel it, but now we'reseeing that this is quite the
opposite, that it's a group ofpeople that are creating this
(35:39):
and like the life is just asimportant as the art.
And then it becomes too seriousand again we have people who
have died because of it.
Ron (35:52):
Ron's looking uh, I had two thoughts and I forgot both of
them it's probably because Ioverextended myself on that last
portion there.
Don (36:01):
So you said you like some of this music the best.
You enjoy it.
You said you enjoy this musicthe best.
Very much so Even though it wasproduced by evil people who
committed murder and burned downhistoric monuments.
Ron (36:13):
Yes, but I would say that's most art in history.
Don (36:16):
I would twitch back on that , but go ahead in history.
Ron (36:20):
See, I would twist back on that, but go ahead don't.
But there's.
I feel like there is always anugly element to the production
of art and the and the marketingof art and who owns art.
Like there are terrible peoplereplete through the history of
hollywood and filmmaking andmusic industry, people who take
advantage of artists and cutthem out of deals and all sorts
of like, behind the sceneswheeling and dealing.
The medicis were thugs.
Yeah, yeah, some medici shit.
(36:42):
But yes, in this instance I'mnot trying to absolve these kids
of these crimes, but I'm sayingthis to me there's a quaint,
charming nature at least theydid it out in the open, at least
they they were.
They were literally backstabbingeach other or something, right?
I don't mean that literally,but there's always a messiness.
I I think to art and I don'treally want to slap them on the
(37:03):
wrist for being like you didn'tdo it the right way, like.
I think they are victims ofvery understandable and, I think
, teenage emotions andexperiences that everyone has
just amped up to a verydangerous degree, right?
That sort of desire to createsomething for yourself, to be
(37:23):
separate from what you considera bad authority, not necessarily
authoritarian, but somethinglike that, right?
And also that drive to begenuine, to be real I'm going to
be real evil, I'm going to bethe most evil.
I'm going to be the most realof you all, because you're all
fakers and posers, right?
Like?
How often is that also anelement of artistic scenes?
Who's real, who's not?
Who's doing it right?
(37:44):
Who?
What are the standards we'resetting ourselves for this genre
or whatever it is we're making?
Don (37:49):
I can only think of this one, really this one, unless the
serial killers have a secretwell, that I don't know about to
to the degree that they murdereach other.
Ron (37:56):
But this happens in, this happens in rap culture.
East west rivalry in america.
Doug (38:01):
Right, and that was the one I was gonna say the closest
one I can imagine is, yeah, therappers killing each other in
the 90s especially.
Ron (38:09):
That's like what I think of it which follows, I think, a
very similar trajectory of wehave to make this music that's
very anti establishment and willnot be marketable to a group of
people we don't like, namelywhite people or people in power,
and then we're just going tomake it as thug as possible and
and it's true to our experience,but then it's not really true
to most of those artistsexperience, because they don't
(38:30):
actually live like that and sothen they get called oh you're
not really thug enough, and blah, blah, blah and then they kill
each other yeah yeah, but to goback to your hollywood example
right, there's behind the scenesis one thing and absolutely I
agree there's sketchiness.
Don (38:45):
That happens in all industries behind the scenes and
as long as I don't see it, Idon't have to react to it.
Yeah, but then when an actordoes a fantastic performance and
they have a an au revoir ofperformances and oscars, and
then we find out that they drinkinfant blood or they are
pedophiles, which they all do bythe way but we shut down access
(39:08):
to their films Like I can thinkof artists right now that I
would like to enjoy their work,but I don't, because of what I
found out about the way thatthey've abused others or they've
done bad things.
So it it does affect likeobjectively it doesn't change
the performance that they did.
Sure, it's a great performance,but I don't allow myself to
enjoy that because of theexternal.
(39:30):
So the same thing here.
I'm wondering, and like thethug rap correlation makes a
little bit more sense to me then.
But I think I'm thinking aboutyour mom.
Oh my gosh, of course.
Why would she let you listen tomusic produced by murderers
that don't have a wholesomemessage for the young formative
mind to, or the young formingmind to adhere to?
Doug (39:51):
And I think it's funny that you were going that
direction.
Somebody I was thinking ofimmediately was Andy Warhol, as
weird as that is.
I was thinking of Andy becauseAndy Warhol, as weird as that is
.
I was thinking of Andy becausethere are so many memoirs, like
I think it was like an EdieSegwick's memoir or something
like that, of her saying likehow many times she had
considered taking her own life,like over just her treatment of
(40:12):
Andy, in the way that he treatedpeople essentially.
But Andy Warhol is maybe evenbeyond just his art.
How many galleries can you goin?
And it's, oh, there's Brilloboxes and soup cans.
It's gotta be another Andypiece.
But even beyond that, just likethe ways that, like we have
fonts or bold colors, or like wedo monochrome celebrities, like
things that like we don't evenassociate with, like instantly
(40:34):
saying Andy, but that's a partof our art, I think that he is
also representative of somebodythat's like such a vapid figure.
Yet all of us consume and thinkof art in a different way now
because of him.
Obviously, black metal is likethe most niche and small of the
genres, but I I think that's thedifficulty is, I think, for me
(40:59):
I find it impossible.
Yeah, like the.
I think I would ask you whatyou mean by not allowing
yourself to enjoy theperformance.
It's like is it like anon-consumer Like this person
has done this?
He's in this film, so I will nolonger watch that film?
It almost, but I would almostsay that's different.
(41:21):
That's consumption versusenjoyment, because I think
enjoyment is something that'slike you.
It's like a snap decision thatyou make if I enjoy this or I
don't.
It interferes with right.
Don (41:33):
So it interferes because when I'm watching it I can't
think but the terrible thingsthat that person did to whatever
victim they had Right, so it'snot, it's what I did enjoy.
I can't enjoy because right.
So I listening to the music,sure, if we're all pretending
that we're dead and we're allpretending that we're Satanists,
or pretending that whateverversus oh no, we're really going
(41:56):
to go kill people.
That a different right element.
That would interfere with myenjoyment.
If we go to the concert andwe're not sure who's coming home
, that wouldn't be fun for me100 yeah, important to say this
sort of violence doesn't reallyspiral out of this group.
Ron (42:12):
Right, though I think it is worth saying the instances the
story of varg and and eronymousis contained between them right
the rest of the scene and the.
There are otherg and Hieronymusis contained between them right
the rest of the scene and the.
There are other groups andartists who make this kind of
music and, like you said earlier, they eschew this kind of thing
, like they are not going aroundburning churches and trying to
kill their friends.
This is a kind of extremeexample.
Doug (42:34):
Yeah, arguably the most extreme, which is why, of course
, we bring it to the uncannery.
But I, yeah, what I take out ofit is knowing and I think that
this is something that is likeshared amongst people that have
talked about this is knowingthat the sound of the records
and then what's representedthere, especially for those that
like make not this style ofmusic in terms of we're trying
(42:56):
to accomplish the same goals,but maybe we like borrow some of
the things aesthetically fromthe sounds of the music, which I
definitely do is that therecords in of themselves, kind
of speak towards a sound that isunique, that now has a message
(43:18):
that can be far more positive,and so it's.
I, yeah, I don't know.
I think it's a good thing to beconfronted about, because the
honest answer is I do love therecord still.
So, yeah, like, how do youbegin to separate that?
And I, honestly I think thatit's a certain amount of almost
surgical precision that you haveto be listening to the guitar
(43:41):
tracks, vocals, drums and bassas its own isolated vacuum.
I think that's.
That is what it is, becausethere's not.
I don't interact with thismusic in a way where I am taking
it in, for lack of a betterterm, like taking it in
spiritually.
That's what I would say.
Ron (44:02):
Yeah.
Doug (44:03):
As esoteric as this sounds .
Ron (44:04):
There is like a lot of ways that people listen to music and
, like when you're a teenager,you identify by music, right,
like it become.
You are like listening to thelyrics and you're trying to form
meanings out of them and tryingto find connections and I feel,
as I'm older, I just reallywant to.
There's a different kind ofenjoyment where I don't really
need to know much or evenanything about the person who
(44:26):
made it.
Does it just sound cool?
Does it make me feel a neatemotion or enjoyment, or, yeah,
maybe it's just nostalgiasometimes now, yeah, like does
it remind me about a time and Idon't know, for this kind music,
I do divorce these people andtheir actions from the art and
it doesn't really impact myenjoyment of the art and it is
interesting to try and figureout why.
(44:48):
But I guess it's sometimes Ijust feel like people.
I guess to me it's not like theart created the tragedy, right,
it's like the people made thetragedy and they decisions they
made and factors relating totheir environment and how they
were raised or what they weredoing those led to the, to both
(45:09):
the art and the tragedy, but Idon't see like the tragedy
arising from the art.
Therefore, the art is safe toenjoy.
I don't know, does that makeany sense?
Doug (45:16):
it does, but it also, yeah , it does.
The art's the cool thing fromthe tragedy.
Ron (45:20):
It would be more tragic to lose the art as well as the
people, the people who areactually harmed in these.
Doug (45:26):
It's interesting to think of it from third perspective,
because now it'll be the thirdtime I've brought up dark throne
that group specifically the.
The drummer Gilf was asked aboutall of them and he brought up
several things about Euronymousand Varg.
And one of the things that hesaid about Varg is we don't talk
at all anymore because he wasmore interested in the politics
(45:51):
and social situations that cameup because of this music.
And I was purely interested inthe music and when that became
an issue we went our separateways.
And when he talks aboutEuronymous he said I will always
be grateful that I was able totake that guitar tone from him,
but at a certain point all of usrealized that there was only
madness there.
It's something that they'vebrought up and so, knowing
(46:14):
that's somebody who knew both ofthem personally, I think that
they it's interesting to hearhis perspective and taking on
like he continued the art on theside of, I would rather make
the music exclusively instead ofcontinue to attach myself to
what the ideology behind this is.
The music is the most importantthing there.
Don (46:36):
So do you listen to this music?
Because you're still rebelling.
Doug (46:40):
It's a great question I think that for me, I admire and
maybe this goes for all art,because I can see myself with
almost any medium, being intothis, whether it's like film,
canvas, sculpture, and I don'tlike it could be anything.
When something is striving togo outside of the box, I'm
(47:03):
always going to want to be yeah,like I always generally am
drawn to it in some way, but Ithink I generally listen to it.
Now, for similar reasons thatI'm interested in what people
are doing with these colors onthe canvas.
I happen to be drawn to thesecolors on the canvas and I want
to see what these paintings looklike.
(47:24):
So when I think of some of themore modern artists that are
blending other genres in like Iknow Ron, we've talked about
Deaf Haven before and I thinkabout Wolves in the Throne Room,
which is like a group fromOregon that kind of focuses on
their, like, local surroundingsand that's the the focal point
of their music I just I see alot of beauty in it.
I think that's what it is.
(47:45):
I see a lot of beauty in it ina very unique perspective.
But with that I wonder if thosebands that I love so much now
would exist if not for theattention that those cases got.
Don (48:01):
It's hard to say there you go, ron, forewarned is forearmed
, so be careful.
I've been to that church theone that he burned down, so
unfortunate Not before it wasburnt down, but I was there
after it was rebuilt Beautiful.
Doug (48:20):
Did they have any information on the burnings
before it was burnt down?
But I was there after it wasrebuilt, beautiful.
Don (48:24):
Did they have any information on the burnings
today?
So it was, so I didn't.
I didn't know about this.
This is actually your, yourstory.
Here is first time that I haveput that all together.
But it's surrounded like it'sin the middle, it's outside
Bergen, norway, and it's a shortdrive out Like I think we took
a tram and then walked like 10minutes, something like that and
it's surrounded by a reallylike significant security fence
(48:45):
and it's just like literally inthe middle of the forest.
You have to walk through thisquiet neighborhood of quaint
little Norwegian houses and thenthere's this giant church and
it's got these like significantsecurity walls and it's like why
would you like?
And you go inside the churchand there's nothing
materialistically valuable.
There's not like gold and it'scarvings and it's beautiful, but
it's just bare wood.
And so we asked somebody likewhy, like what's?
(49:08):
And they did say becausesomebody decided to burn it down
or somebody thought that it wasa good idea to burn all
churches down, or something likethat.
And that was as much as we gotand it clearly was.
I'm irritated by that.
Don't ask me another question.
Type of because it was, it wasa local.
It was the person working therethat we asked, but it wasn't
like here.
Let me tell you the whole story.
It was like some jerk did thisand we had to rebuild it.
Ron (49:28):
Yeah, takes a drag of their cigarette, hands you a Bersam
cassette.
Yeah, says it's all here, right?
Doug (49:37):
Yeah, yeah.
I need to go collect mythoughts and think about this
for a moment.
But for the next episode.
I think you should listen tomore wholesome music.
I was just going to say Imight've burned my copies of all
these records, who knows, inprotest.
Don (49:50):
Burned them onto your computer, onto your CD.
Ron (49:54):
Lime wire baby.
Doug (49:56):
Oh, I got to shout out the good old days.
That's right.
Don (50:00):
Thanks, doug.
I appreciate the.
It's a genre of music that I amaware exists, but I don't
listen to, I don't enjoy, Idon't know very much about it.
Ron (50:08):
Yeah, next time tell us about where butt rock came from,
please, oh yeah.
Doug (50:11):
We'll give you all of that .
We'll maybe do some impressionstoo.
I pride myself on my butt.
Rock vocals Good yeah,fantastic.
Ron (50:19):
Thank you, gentlemen, thank you.
Doug (50:34):
Thank you.
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