December 3, 2024 • 56 mins
Have you ever found yourself in a spirited debate over the merits of turkey at Thanksgiving? Join us as we embark on a culinary clash, with Ron and Doug insisting that turkey is overrated, while Don staunchly defends it as a cherished tradition. Our conversation meanders into nostalgic Thanksgiving memories, contrasting the stiff formalities of old with today’s relaxed family gatherings. Laughter abounds as we also nod to the essential art of crafting the perfect turkey sandwich.
From holiday banter, we switch gears to the fascinating world of true crime, where the allure of mystery pulls us in. True crime podcasts offer a safe distance from real-life horrors, providing both a release of anxiety and a cautionary tale, particularly for women. We tackle ethical dilemmas such as the focus on criminals over victims, and ponder what might be the world’s first global true crime story, reflecting on how narratives have evolved over the ages.
Our journey through crime wouldn't be complete without confronting the shadowy figure of Jack the Ripper. We unravel the chilling timeline of his crimes, speculate on his identity, and even entertain the theory of a possible female perpetrator. Through this infamous case, we explore the social and gender dynamics of late 19th century England, drawing literary parallels and challenging traditional narratives. Personal anecdotes about our fascination with these unsolved mysteries remind us why such enigmas continue to captivate and teach us valuable lessons about the unknown.
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Don (00:27):
And and.
That's why you can't trustclowns with homemade salsa.
Ron (00:32):
No, I knew that that's old news.
Well, way to be an expert.
Ron's a know-it-all I grew upin a Mexican household, I know
everything about salsa.
Doug (00:44):
It's a qualification.
That's cool.
Don (00:47):
Welcome back to the Uncannery everybody.
My name is Don, I'm Ron Doughere, and we're back again to
chat with you all.
Hey, how was your Thanksgiving?
Doug (00:56):
It was well.
It's too stereotypical to sayhow thankful I am.
Ron (01:02):
Oh, man Boy, do you want to tell us how much you?
Doug (01:08):
respect us again.
Don (01:10):
It's uh thankful day, not respect day absolutely where the
pilgrim had and, uh, go out andshoot a turkey with a
blunderbuss can.
Doug (01:21):
Can I just drop the controversial opinion
immediately that turkey's notthat great.
Ron (01:26):
No, I'm 100% with you.
I've been saying this for years.
Thank you, I'm glad I finallyfound someone.
Don, where do you stay onturkey?
Don (01:33):
I'm a pro-turkey, but only on Thanksgiving.
Doug (01:35):
Because you want the dry bird once a year.
Don (01:38):
No, if you know how to cook it it's not dry, you should
come to.
Ron (01:46):
Thanksgiving at my house.
It's good.
I have had good turkeys before100%, but my wife's family does
the best thing with the turkey,which is like the better meal is
the day after ThanksgivingSandwiches.
Don (01:53):
Yep.
Ron (01:53):
And they get together and they make those club sandwiches,
and that's really what theturkey's for, I find.
Don (01:58):
Give me the ham on.
Ron (01:59):
Thanksgiving, and let me have the old turkey, between
sourdough bread and with a pieceof bacon.
Doug (02:05):
Full Thanksgiving spread.
You guys sleep through theentire day just to get to the
next one.
Ron (02:10):
Parle on the sandwiches I remember being a kid and like
hating Thanksgiving and beinglike boy there's no toys and I
just got to go to my grandpa'shouse and he sucks and he's
going to ruin the turkey we allknow this is pre-Christmas.
Okay, we had to dress up and itwas very like you know,
children should be seen, notheard, kind of you know family.
Don (02:28):
At the time, you had to dress up like in costume.
Ron (02:30):
Well, we had to dress like fancy, you know like Sunday best
type stuff, and we never had todo that for Christmas or
literally any other holiday.
So it was just sort of stuffy.
I suppose were my earliestmemories of Thanksgiving.
But I'm happy to report I'vecome 180 on my views of
Thanksgiving.
I love it very much.
I'm very glad to have thisopportunity.
I'm very respectful of thisopportunity to be with people I
(02:53):
love.
Don (02:53):
You know we're not having Thanksgiving now we don't have
to hold hands or anything.
I hate to tell you guys, but Idid try to make a turkey.
Doug (03:00):
It's coming out in the next five minutes.
I hope that you're ready.
Don (03:12):
I thought I a turkey.
It's coming out in the nextfive minutes, so I hope that
you're ready.
I thought I heard something.
It's gonna be dry, let's get apizza.
Oh, speaking of killing thingslike birds, um, I was, uh, I've
been scrolling through my uh, mypodcast app, trying to find new
things listen to on the way towork and, uh, and you know, what
you can't escape is, you cannotescape a podcast about true
crime like try which like they,you.
They just pop up, they're like a, they're like a plague yeah,
(03:33):
yeah, the, the.
Ron (03:35):
That's like a inherent human interest, right?
You can always rely on it.
Right, it must be like beforethere were podcasts.
Was there a radio station thatjust talked?
Don (03:43):
about murders it was called the news.
Yeah, yeah, I guess, yeah, yeahabsolutely or unsolved
mysteries.
Doug (03:50):
Right, unsolved mysteries was awesome.
Yeah, everybody's gonna getinto that.
Ron (03:54):
That guy was so smoky right yeah, cops was fun, but cops
was a different thing.
The cops is never like trulyhorrifying, like intellectually
it is, but not but not likeviscerally or it makes me sad
for humanity yeah, yeah,absolutely yeah.
Doug (04:14):
It was truly filled with crime, though I can at least
tell you that I remember likebeing a kid and being like dad.
Ron (04:20):
Why are they outside another motel in gainesville?
That's the only place that hascrime.
Doug (04:26):
Ron, don't go there.
We just lost all of ourGainesville listeners.
Ron (04:32):
I want to apologize on behalf of the uncannery.
No, no, they're back.
They just want to be on the mapwe got you.
Sorry, don you were saying well, no, cause.
Don (04:39):
It's interesting point that you bring out, because there is
like a moment in history wherewhere crime becomes narrative
and I don't think like if you goback a few hundred years, like
I don't think you have crime asthe narrative, the, the things
you talk about at parties, likethere's gossip about crime and
it's a little bit scurrilous,but it's not, uh, uh, it's not
the, the entertainment thatpeople are looking for.
(05:00):
That it does.
It has become today, I thinkthat, right.
So you listen to a podcast topass the time, but to be
entertained by the story ofthese horrible things that
happen to other people or thatother people have committed um.
So I think that's an interestingmoment and actually we're going
to talk about that very momentwhere that that shift happens,
where crime becomes story.
But before we get there, umtalk about why people like true
(05:25):
crime.
So you bring up a lot of goodpoints, ron.
I also think there's a littlebit of psychological distance
that it allows you to experimentwith.
We just talked about terror alittle while ago right.
And hearing like these are realhorror stories.
Ron (05:43):
They're not fictional horror stories but you're still
experiencing it vicariously froma safe distance and yeah, I
always wondered if it wasconsidered instructive in some
way right Like don't do this andcrime won't happen.
Don (05:55):
Sort of right.
Ron (05:57):
Like a lot of the people I know who are very interested in
true crime media are women, andthen, and then it's like, I
think, partly a release ofanxiety for them, um, uh, like,
uh, I don't know, like I I usedto listen I'm not trying to like
(06:17):
this like, say, I'm too coolfor true crime, like some of the
first podcasts I listened towere also true crime podcasts,
but at some point I started kindof getting just sort of like
feeling kind of gross about how,yeah, that that entertainment
aspect that you mentioned, don,that we were like taking like
the victims are frequently thepeople who get sort of forgotten
paradoxically in the true crimestories.
(06:39):
Right, they are merely, youknow, agents who have things
done unto them.
And then we are interested inthe actor who is the criminal.
Doug (06:48):
You're not wrong because the victim.
I think that there's a certainnow it's interesting that you
said a release of that anxiety.
Listening to that, my poor wifethat I'm going to cite now,
obsessed, just absolutely lovesit, and I think that so many of
the lock the doors even whenI'll be back in five minutes,
(07:09):
like just go into the car.
I think a lot of that comesfrom that to a certain degree,
and I I think that there is thisunbelievable, could this happen
to me too?
I think it's interesting.
I agree with you that how couldsomebody ever do this, like in
the killer, and then we kind ofI don't know if fetish size is
exactly the right word, butmaybe to a certain degree,
(07:30):
fetish size like the idea.
But also I think that there's acertain amount of projection of
what if this was me, cause thisseems like the idyllic it.
They were living in completelynormal life and then they met Ed
Gein, you know, like or whoever.
Whoever decides to show up, itbecomes very disturbing, and so
I don't know if that's I.
Ron (07:50):
I don't have anything to back that up but it kind of
reminds me of the what was itthis summer, or maybe further
back that, the, the kind of aTik TOK conversation.
Every now and then it seemslike there's this sort of uh,
gender studies question thatgrabs the popular discourse.
You know the would you choose abear or a man question from a
while ago.
Doug (08:11):
And then I didn't hear that.
You didn't hear this one Reallyexcited.
Ron (08:13):
The idea was like hey, if you're, if you're a woman and
you're hiking in nature I don'tremember the setting exactly who
would you rather have to?
Who would you rather encounteralone in the woods, a man or a
bear?
And the sensational kind of the.
the revelation was that mostwomen were like I would much
rather encounter a bear the ideabeing that, like, yes, it's a
(08:34):
dangerous animal, but in someways it is more predictable than
than a man, uh, or, or at leastum, their past experience had
taught them to be more fearfulof the power that men hold over
them than a wild animal does.
And lots of people blew up atthis, agreeing, disagreeing,
(08:54):
being angry, blah, blah, blah.
But the one I was thinking ofwas there was also the thing
about like, how often do menthink about ancient Rome?
Doug (09:01):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that one I knew about and I remember
having that conversation.
Ron (09:05):
I was like I think about Rome a lot.
I mean, I feel like Rome haspopped up on every single one of
these podcasts and I think thepoint of that one was like men
are are afforded more frivolousthoughts than women, and I think
true crime is part of that.
Right Like there is like, and Ithink true crime is part of
that.
Right Like there is, like I canI feel safe walking at night in
(09:28):
my neighborhood, right?
And my wife does not, and manywomen do not, and so I think the
preoccupation with true crimeis does just speak to the
differences in our thoughts andconcerns and priorities,
sometimes right when we havethis time to imagine something.
I like to think about theemperors of ancient Rome and the
(09:52):
mistakes they made that led tothe downfall of their
civilization.
And other people are like Ijust want to get home safely
tonight, you know, mm-hmm.
Don (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
So what do you think was thefirst big crime?
That was like the, the truecrime story, that that everyone
was following worldwide, like itwas.
It was big news and it wasfinally the moment where
journalism was making crime intoentertainment sinking of the
(10:21):
lusitania, but earlier than that.
Doug (10:27):
I'm earlier than.
We need a global new.
Ron (10:29):
When does global news happen?
Doug (10:30):
yeah, because I'm thinking the king was poisoned, but
that's probably only regionalyeah, yeah, yeah, you're talking
about the 1930s.
Don (10:38):
No, because that wasn't news until just like a couple
weeks ago no, no, no, no.
Doug (10:43):
I would imagine imagine like something medieval in a
sense.
But again, I don't think newsis traveling that fast.
Don (10:49):
No, I don't think so either .
I think it's gotta be muchlater than that, because news
wasn't news back then right.
News was just a story youhappened to hear after a huge
train of people told it to eachother.
Ron (11:02):
And it probably changed five times so that now there's a
monster in it which makes itmuch more interesting.
Doug (11:08):
Yeah, was not poisoned the dragon, took him, absolutely,
absolutely yeah, um first bigit's a it's a murder.
Don (11:16):
I'll tell you it's.
Ron (11:17):
It's a murder.
Don (11:17):
It's a murder spree.
What's the first big murderthat the news would have been
interested in as an institution?
Ron (11:26):
Jackie Boy, which one Jackie Boy, saucy Jack, jackie
Robinson, yeah, murdered thoseDodgers.
Doug (11:35):
Definitely murdered a baseball or two.
I'll tell you that.
Ron (11:40):
No, Jack the Ripper right, Is he the first one?
He is.
Doug (11:44):
Ah yeah, I know about him too.
Good job, Good pull, got him.
Don (11:47):
So yeah, because Jack the Ripper murders occur in 1888.
We've got telegraphs now thatare spread across the Atlantic,
so news can get to the UnitedStates from England as well as
elsewhere across Europe.
So it's actually a series ofmurder that that people are
following in real time.
Doug (12:06):
Okay.
Don (12:07):
Uh, as as real as real time could be back in 1888.
Um, so I've done a little bitof reading about Jack the Ripper
and I don't I don't know whatyour levels of expertise are
about Jack the Ripper what doyou guys know about?
Uh, about Jack, or about the?
Uh, the murders that areattributed to him?
Doug (12:23):
I've got.
Uh, the film was from hell,correct was?
Ron (12:28):
that the uh don's.
This is the most disappointed.
Doug (12:33):
He's been in you yet, you peasant uh well, no, I was gonna
list everything, so is it fromhell?
Ron (12:42):
from hell is from hell, but I know it as the it's a.
It's a graphic novel, right.
Don (12:46):
Alan it is more than the film.
Ron (12:49):
I've been told to read from hell.
I never have Okay.
Don (12:53):
Well, it's a graphic novel, Don't you just look at the
pictures?
Yes, it's still a readingexperience.
Now I'm disappointed in what asurprise.
Ron (13:00):
We were raised on graphic novels Don yeah, yeah.
Doug (13:06):
Heard about it from.
I think I was exposed to it abit in, yeah, talking about
media in history classes andthen taking a trip to London in
which I think we weren't doing aguided tour.
But I think we were told by thepeople that we were at the
(13:29):
hotel with, if you're interestedin going through the alleyways,
that uh, jack the ripper mademany famous killings.
They're these ones.
And I instantly looked at nikkiand she said, yeah, we got to
check it out, which is shockingto me because, yeah, normally
she'd be too freaked out to seethose.
Ron (13:45):
That's what I got.
I know probably less.
I've definitely like heard thispodcast a couple of times, like
I feel like it's a podcastright of passage and I'm glad we
finally are making ours.
Don (13:55):
Um, uh crossing the Rubicon .
Yeah, to bring up Rome.
Doug (14:00):
Hey, check the box.
Good to be here.
Ron (14:05):
I know the famous thing about it is that he was never
caught right, and so there'sstill many sort of extant
theories he's out there.
Don (14:14):
Lock your doors, hide your wife.
Ron (14:18):
There's still many extant theories about who he was right,
and I've actually never reallyunderstood why Jack the Ripper
is such an important crime story.
Is it because this is he's kindof the first?
Is he sort of?
Is he a template for othercrime stories to come?
Or was he?
Were the crimes actually sohorrific and have not yet been
matched?
Don (14:34):
and blah, blah, blah they've been matched, but, um,
but I think the the part you'resaying about being the first
real story about it, that's.
That's really the key, becausethe newspapers really are making
a story out of the, this seriesof murders and uh, and
popularizing it and bringing itto the public's attention in a
way that, like, like, murder hasbeen a thing for thousands of
(14:56):
years, Right and, and nobody hasreally cared about them.
But these, this particular setof five, somehow captured the
imagination of literally theworld and continues to today.
We need to take a littletangent for a second before we
get any further into the detailsthat we're going to talk about.
Sure, Because I want to creditHallie Rubenhold, who is an
(15:18):
author of a book called the Fivethe Untold Lives of the Women
Killed by Jack the Ripper soit's a 2019 book the untold
lives of the women killed byJack the Ripper Uh, so it's 2019
book.
She is a, an American, Britishhistorian, so a an American who
is a historian of Britishhistory, Um and uh, and she
wrote this book specifically toto try to change the
conversation about Jack Um,because for for a long, long
(15:42):
time, the focus has been onsolving the very question that
you brought up Like he's neverbeen.
We don't know who he is, Um,he's never been uh been caught.
Uh.
There's been over a hundredsuspects, um that were um
suggested over time.
Uh, when they were initiallydoing the investigation, they
interviewed over 2000, um peopleto get information from them,
(16:05):
and so that idea of who is hehas been like this, the
unattainable quest, for a longtime.
Ron (16:11):
There's people who call themselves ripperologists who
that used to be a surfer, Ithink.
How hard does he rip?
Don (16:19):
he's a ripperologist who study the crimes and continue to
look for clues and put forwardpossible suspects and possible
explanations.
And what Hallie Rubenhold isproposing in her book is that
for two things.
One is that it's futile to dothat because it's been so long
since the crimes occurred thatthere's no chance that we would
(16:42):
ever be able to find anythingconclusive occurred that there's
no chance that we would ever beable to find anything
conclusive.
But I think, more importantly,what what her project is is
elevating the lives of thevictims rather than glamorizing
the life of the murderer, yeahand, uh, and, and, rather than
just sort of dehumanizing themand dismissing them as the you
know, the, the chattel, the, theof the of the real event,
(17:04):
making sure that their storiesare the ones that are actually
what people focus on.
It's definitely cool.
Ron (17:09):
Yeah, yeah, and that's like what we said about right, like
that's.
And I'm sure there probably aretrue crime.
I don't want to like lump alltrue crime media outlets and
podcasts and shows together.
Maybe there is a change in inthat kind of genre to to do that
, to to center the victims andsort of memorialize them better.
Doug (17:28):
And.
Ron (17:28):
I'm glad that this book seems to be on that on that cusp
All right.
Don (17:35):
So that aside and and full respect to to Ruben holds
project, and I think she's doinga good thing, but for our story
today we do need to talk alittle bit about about the
crimes, and do you guys know howmany murders are included in
the Jack the Ripper canon?
Ron (17:52):
I don't know no.
Don (17:54):
So there's, there's five for sure.
Um, so they're.
They're referred to as thecanonical five, and their names
are Marianne Nichols, annieChapman, elizabeth Stride,
catherine Eddowes and Mary JaneKelly, one of the.
Well, do you know what theirprofessions were?
They were prostitutes right orat least some of them are.
That was what I remember andthat's what everybody says about
(18:15):
them.
And again go back to MsRubenhold.
One of the more controversialclaims that she makes is that
there's actually only evidenceof one of them, mary Jane Kelly,
actually working as a sexworker.
Okay, um, and that what herclaim is, and, uh, and, and I
don't have any information oneway or another to support her or
(18:37):
refute her, so I will take herat her.
Um, at her word, is that thereason that all of the others
are referred to as prostitutesis because that's how they're
recorded in police records.
Um, uh, so they were allarrested at some point and when
you are an indigent woman aloneon the streets, probably
inebriated, that's how you werereferred to in police records,
(18:59):
whether or not you were actuallyengaged in sex work at the time
.
Ron (19:03):
So wow, was this a so that they were they charging them
with prostitution, or was itjust a plain old?
Don (19:13):
like misogyny, like were they using this as?
Ron (19:15):
a further means to criminalize these people, or was
this just how they were?
I?
Don (19:20):
think primarily the second, but yes to both okay okay so
yeah, it was part of the thecharges that against them, but
it was mostly just a descriptionof who they were so that if
they were arrested again it wason their record and now we can
do whatever we want.
Ron (19:33):
Okay, um, they all happen between august and november of
1888.
Don (19:35):
All five of there.
There are a.
It was on their record and nowwe can do whatever we want.
Okay, all right.
Um, they all happen betweenAugust and November of 1888.
All five of them.
There are a couple outliermurders a little bit earlier and
a couple later that are less,uh, sure about.
Uh, whether or not they are areare part of his handiwork.
Um, but uh, what about the nameJack the Ripper?
Do you do you imagine that thatwas something that was added on
(19:57):
later?
Was that something that he cameup with before?
Ron (20:01):
he started You've got to brand everything first.
No, I'm a Ripperologist.
He said um, uh, I thought thatit was uh the.
The crimes are very violent,right Like uh, I don are very
violent, right like I don't.
Do they actually involve?
Doug (20:14):
I'm assuming they're knives as opposed to uh firearm
yeah it was a sharp instrumentfor sure yeah, I would think
that that would be tabloid.
Don (20:23):
Uh, you know addition so, uh, first murder is august 31st
of 1888 and uh, the secondmurder is september 8th 1888.
And then there's a little pauseand there's a letter that's now
called the dear boss letterthat was sent to the central
news agency in in London onSeptember 27th and and in that
(20:46):
letter a person claims to be themurderer and and signs the
letter, jack the Ripper.
Ron (20:54):
So it actually is uh coming from?
Don (20:57):
now there's a possibility that that letter was a hoax.
The, the, the police and newsagencies were getting quite a
few letters that have been shownto be hoaxes or shown to be
forgeries.
Um, even the ones that, uh, Ihave seen that, that are claimed
to be from the, you know,claimed to be um, authentic the
(21:17):
handwriting is completelydifferent between them.
So, um, so it's.
It's hard to tell where it camefrom, but that's where the name
came from and I think that's animportant date.
So it's just, it's receivedagain on September 27th 1888,
but we uh we need to talk for asecond about um September 30th
1888.
Actually, we'll start withSeptember 29th 1888.
Okay, all right.
So so far, um, we have had umuh two murders.
(21:42):
So we've had Mary uh MarianneNichols on August 31st and Annie
Chapman on September 8th.
On the night of September 30thuh, a woman named Catherine
Eddowes is arrested for publicintegration at 8 30 PM.
Um, just outside uh theBishop's gate um uh police
(22:02):
station.
That location is actuallyimportant because where she's
arrested, she's arrested by the?
Um the city police, the city ofLondon police, and their
procedures are different thanthe metropolitan police.
If she had been arrested abouta hundred feet away from where
she was, she would have beenarrested by a different police
(22:22):
department and she might havelived so okay, so they would
have presumably taken her backto the department with.
Ron (22:32):
The idea was like take him to station and then process them
.
Don (22:35):
So that's the.
So they did.
They brought her back to thestation and uh and booked her
for public inebriation and shefell asleep in the cell for four
and a half hours, first offpause real quick.
Ron (22:44):
Yes, um, how the hell are you booking everyone for public
inebriation in 1888?
Does that sound like animpossible task?
It?
Don (22:53):
is is, and it's certainly not something that they were
very successful at.
No, but the reason that she wasarrested?
She had called attention toherself.
There was a circle of peoplearound her laughing at her.
She was apparently imitating afire truck is what I understand.
Ron (23:09):
That's just.
Don (23:11):
she's just having fun, Then laid down to take a nap and a
little night-night and thepolice officer arrested her
Anyway.
So because of the city police,they take her back to city
police station and she's in whattoday would be called a drunk
tank for four and a half hours.
The reason that it matters isthe city police procedure was to
(23:32):
hold somebody until theysobered up enough that they
could manage themselves and thenrelease them.
So she was released from jailat 1am on September 30th 1888.
Her last words recorded to theuh the jailer was uh, good night
, old cock.
She did ask him before that whattime it was, and he, his answer
(23:56):
was sort of condescending, likesomething like uh, it's too
late for you to get somethingelse to drink, or something like
that.
So she, uh wandered off intothe the darkness, away from the
police station.
Um, she was next seen at uh one, somewhere between 135 and 140
in the morning by threegentlemen who were leaving a
(24:17):
club, one of whom was able tosee that she was with another
person.
She was with a man and he wasable to give a description of
her, of, sorry, of the man asbeing about five, seven, um,
slight build, had a medical bag,an oversized jacket, and within
(24:39):
10 minutes later, catherineEddow's body was found in Mitre
Square.
Wait, how many minutes?
Within 10.
10?
Yeah, okay, she'd beendisemboweled and the killer had
had time to do some facialmutilation and remove some
organs, and I think it was apretty comprehensive event for
only taking about 10 minutes.
Ron (25:00):
So the belief is, the last man she was seen with was the
her killer.
Don (25:03):
Right, and the fact that so much mutilation, especially of
the internal organs, happeningright after that indicates there
was some medical knowledge orsome anatomical knowledge.
Yeah, so, so that's the.
That's the only time that thepolice thought they maybe had a
witness who had seen Jack theRipper.
Okay, okay, so who might havethat kind of anatomical
(25:34):
knowledge?
Doctors Doctors would be a goodguess.
Ron (25:37):
Surgeons Surgeons Soldiers.
Do soldiers field dress eachother?
Don (25:44):
So there would be doctors and more likely, surgeons who
would have that knowledge frommilitary training Soldiers
themselves.
Maybe not Fishermen yeah,butchers too have a pretty good
sense of knowledge and so thosewere kind of the uh, um, the,
the, the main suspects thatpolice were on the lookout for,
(26:05):
and since two murders had takenplace before September 30th,
they were already on sort ofhigh alert on looking for, you
know, strange men wanderingalone at the night, and
especially if they were carryingknives around, I guess I don't
know.
Um but uh, but what kind ofpeople in Victorian England
would hold those, those, thoseprofessions?
Ron (26:29):
Um well, you still need an education to cut someone open.
I want to hope.
Don (26:35):
Absolutely.
Ron (26:35):
Educated men.
Don (26:37):
All right, what were you saying?
Why would you think it would bemen?
Doug (26:40):
I think it's a fair guess.
Oh, the era, yeah.
Ron (26:44):
You're pulling a trick on me that my mother pulled on me
when I was a teenager.
Don (26:47):
I was like what was that she?
Ron (26:50):
heard this story on Oprah or something and really wanted
to make the eyes pop out of myhead and it was like I can't
remember.
There's a car crash.
Right, you know what I'mtalking about, don yeah, can you
say it's a joke.
Don (27:03):
So yeah, yeah, it's a car crash.
And the doctor gets taken tothe doctor and the doctor says I
can't operate, oh, because thekids with a father.
So the father and the son arein the car crash right taking
the hospital and the doctortakes one look at the patient
and says I can't operate on thispatient.
Ron (27:18):
It's my son and you're supposed to be like how could
that be?
And I remember being like 10 or11, being like, yeah, I really
don't want he's got two dads.
My mom was like she's a woman,You're so progressive.
Don (27:43):
You.
My mom was like she's a woman,you're so progressive idiot.
So but actually that's a goodpoint because, yeah, we're
looking for for butcher who's aman, right?
Because yeah, yeah, you knowyou need this certain amount of
strength to to butcher animalsor you've got to have the
ability to go to medical school,which means that you are a man
with some means and ability toprovide for an education.
Can we put a pin in CatherineEddowes for a second?
And we'll circle back to therest of her story.
I want to jump ahead about twoyears, to 1890.
(28:06):
In 1890.
Ron (28:08):
Is this the trial of Jack the Ripper?
This?
Don (28:11):
is not.
Ron (28:12):
Turned out well.
No Justice is served thing.
Don (28:19):
Um turned out well.
No justice is served.
Um want to jump ahead to uh toanother, october 24th 1890.
Um, we're in a place just northof london called hampton
hamstead and uh, a woman namedum mary percy lives out there.
Uh, very respectable, has ahouse, has like afternoon tea,
invites people over.
One day she invites over awoman named Phoebe Hogg who has
(28:42):
an 18 month old daughter namedTiggy.
Ron (28:45):
These are fun Hogg and Tiggy coming over for tea in my
sick English household Right.
Don (28:54):
Anyway.
So Mary Percy kills Phoebe.
Oh okay, why do you do thissick english household right?
Um, anyway, so mary percy killsphoebe why do you do this
public inebriation?
man it'll do it, um, uh,actually pretty brutally, um,
crushes her head in with someblunt instruments, uh, cuts her
nearly, beheads her, okay, andthen smothers Tiggy, come on,
(29:17):
yeah, but she's not done,because you can't just have dead
bodies in your house.
So she actually uses the pramor the baby carriage to move the
body of Phoebe Hogg out of herhouse and out into the woods a
little ways.
And she's actually caughtmoving the woods a little ways
and, uh, and she's actually, um,uh, caught moving the, the, the
(29:39):
baby's body, out.
Um, the police arrest her.
They go inside the house.
There's blood spattereverywhere.
She's covered with blood.
She denies anything happened.
She actually says, uh, she'squestioned about why she's
covered with blood and there'sblood all over her house.
She was, uh, killing mice, um,yep, and uh with a jackhammer.
Doug (29:58):
Yeah, it's me trying to kill mosquitoes late at night.
Don (30:02):
So, uh, october 24th 1890, she winds up, uh, on trial, uh,
the beginning of december, uh,1890, just a month later, and is
executed, december 23rd 1890,for the murders of Phoebe Hogg
and her daughter.
Prior to her execution, shesays the following she says the
(30:23):
sentence is just, but theevidence is false.
So, yeah, so it's.
So she's kind of admitting tothe murders, but she's saying
there's something, there'ssomething not I really was
killing mice well, it's peoplestarted talking about.
Why would she say something likethat?
Why like?
(30:44):
Why would the evidence be false?
She was literally covered withblood right and the the their.
Their house was covered withblood and and she had a dead
baby with her and right.
Ron (30:54):
So did they try to conceive of some motivation?
Don (30:57):
like, why did this?
Yeah, phoebe was her lover'swife oh, okay but nonetheless
that cryptic gallows statementsort of like stuck in the public
imagination as it was reportedin the newspapers again, the
newspapers are making thestories out of these uh, these,
(31:18):
these, these true crime, right?
So it's the analog version ofthe true crime podcast um arthur
conan doyle.
You know who that is yeah, he's.
Ron (31:30):
Uh, I know his famous one, he's the fairies guy.
I think last time I need to dosome quick correction I think I
said hd well was into fairies.
Yeah, and I think it's conandoyle.
Don (31:39):
Conan doyle was I don't want to know about hd wells, but
hd wells was an intellectual.
Doug (31:44):
That's not usually the first thing, that people think
of when they say I'm gonna givethat one to me, right, it's
gonna be sherlock.
Don (31:51):
It's gonna be sherlock holmes yeah, well, uh, conan
doyle, uh, hears about marypercy's case, hears about her
cryptic gallows statement andthen says hey, I wonder if I can
make a story out of thosemurders that happened two years
ago.
Might not have been committedby a man.
Ron (32:13):
Oh.
Don (32:13):
Clever, clever Arthur, and actually postulates for a minute
that maybe Mary Percy had beenJill the Ripper.
Yeah, Interesting.
So a couple of things that hebrings up about it is how much
easier it would be for a womanto be invisible One because
nobody's looking for a woman.
No, there would be bejustifiable reasons why a woman
(32:37):
might have blood on her andstill be able to navigate the
streets without being questionedor seen.
Or, um, like a midwife.
He says, yeah, midwife woulddefinitely have a reason to be
floating around like that.
Um, so that raised that wholequestion of, like we're looking
for a man, the police arelooking for a man.
They increase their policepatrol.
(32:58):
Miter square, where CatherineEddowes was found, literally had
a policeman walk through itevery 15 minutes, and yet the
Ripper somehow found time tocommit this horrible murder.
As a matter of fact, heactually committed two murders
that night, and CatherineEddowes was his second event.
That's the famous night of tocommit this horrible murder.
As a matter of fact, heactually committed two murders
that night.
Catherine Eddowes was hissecond event.
(33:18):
That's the famous night ofwhat's called the double event.
Literally, 45 minutes beforeCatherine Eddowes' murder,
elizabeth Stride had beenmurdered about a half mile away.
So somehow the Ripper was ableto murder Elizabeth Stride, walk
a half mile through the streetsof London, probably covered
with blood, like you wouldn'thave time to change your clothes
Right and then meet CatherineEddowes and then convince her to
(33:40):
stay with you and then kill andmutilate her body and still
escape from the police.
How could you do that?
Unless you had some likespecial invisibility spell Right
?
Ron (33:50):
Right.
Don (33:51):
And what better invisibility spell than to be a
middle-aged woman wandering thestreets?
Doug (33:57):
what do you think?
Well, and even back to theoriginal physical description of
um the first murder, rightgiant trench, coat, doctor's bag
, you know the whole deal.
You're very covered up, so thatdetail we might instantly make
very masculine and it could verymuch be feminine.
Don (34:20):
So yeah, I see it I could see that because of the
oversized coat and the the.
There's three gentlemen leavingthe imperial club that night
that see katherine edo's and andthe the person that they're
with, the first to describe themas a couple.
Um, it's only the last one,linda, that says that it was a
man, and the fair mustache isthe thing that kind of throws me
(34:42):
off, like it.
I wonder if you know it's notwell lit, it's 1am in the
morning.
We're in london street or heactually sees her in a in a very
narrow passageway called JamesPassageway, which is one of the
entrances to Miner Square.
I wonder if it like you don'twalk around saying yeah, like a
shadow or something.
You don't walk around memorizingfaces, but then in hindsight
(35:04):
when you think oh my gosh, thatwas a murderer, I walked by.
Like you can create a lot ofdetails.
Like eyewitness statements arevery unreliable.
Ron (35:11):
Right, yeah.
So, arthur Conan Doyle, a lotof details, like eyewitness
statements are, are veryunreliable, right, yeah so, uh,
so arthur conan dole is thefirst one to kind of postulate
this idea does, does, does thishave any legs?
Do people at the time kind oflatch on to this in any way, or
is he kind of like laughed outof the smoking parlors?
Don (35:25):
so the primary investigator for the police department uh
says that the that all alloptions are on the table.
So, uh, as far as I know, theyinterviewed 2,000 people.
Not all of those were suspects.
They had about 100 suspects.
I don't know of any that wereactually female suspects that
were considered during the spreeof murders.
(35:46):
But then Mary Percy does getadded to that list after the
fact, after she's arrested andtried for the other murder.
I don't think it's got hugelegs to it, but I do think it's
a super interesting like.
It complicates the issue quitea bit.
Right, because we always assumethat Jack the Ripper is a man,
(36:07):
that he's punishing prostitutesfor some reason.
Right, the the crimes are superviolent.
They are based on um knowledgeof anatomy because of the, the
brutality and the speed andswiftness and the precision of
some of the cuts.
But that, like again, that'sall based on assumption that
women wouldn't have access tothat knowledge and that's not
necessarily the case, correct.
Doug (36:29):
And the fact like would they yeah, okay, all into the
stereotypes?
Would they yeah, okay, all intothe stereotypes?
Right, would they engage insuch brutal behavior?
Why would they hate prostitutesin the same way?
And absolutely I could see themotivation for any of those
things you know.
Um, yeah, that's a lot to thinkabout.
Ron (36:47):
Are these uh motivations still kind of the like I'm
wondering about, like recent oror the contemporary
scholasticism on this case?
Right, that was always kind ofwhat I'd heard.
Also, was that Jack the Ripper?
He's an upset angry man who'susing righteous anger against
women right In a very like sortof nakedly patriarchal way,
(37:07):
right Like hey look, patriarchyexists, but we don't do
patriarchy that blatantly.
Right, like you know it's enoughfor these women to just sort of
toil and abject misery andpoverty.
We don't need to literally goin and start cutting them open.
Um, so then I suppose, likewhat then becomes the motivation
if we change the, uh, thegender of of the ripper, right,
(37:32):
does that story have to changealso, um, and, and how does that
?
How does that change ourperception of the women at the
time?
Right, right?
Don (37:41):
And that's a and I think that's a really interesting
thing to to ponder, because thelike one of the things that that
Hallie Rubenhold does well andand if you haven't read her book
, she does have a really goodpodcast.
That is like opinion to thebook called bad women, which I
would readily recommend.
The women who history haslabeled prostitute and history
(38:03):
has has dehumanized and historyhas said are, are lesser beings
that are just sort of the waste.
The real story is, you know,the, the murderer, um, showing
how they actually were powerfulactors in their own lives and
(38:26):
how they tried to provide forthemselves, tried to provide for
their families and and weresuccessful to a certain extent
until, of course, they, theywere cut short.
So that idea of, you know,operating within a patriarchy
that is not giving you any ofthe advantages and then
elevating the women's lives, butthen what if the murderer is
(38:49):
part of that?
You know the one uh, subjugatedby the patriarchy.
What does that do to themotivations?
Like, why would you do thatright?
So there's possibilities that Ican think of, right, like, uh,
uh, competition, yeah yeah, yeahright, yeah, replacement, yeah,
yep, um, uh, any others you canthink of?
Ron (39:11):
um even even the same sort of righteous anger right.
Doug (39:14):
Yes.
Ron (39:14):
Like there is, hey, there is a acceptable social hierarchy
, and even though I I am also amember of the class that is not
favored by that hierarchy, butthere is that sort of um, uh, I
will, I will gain that favorshipby enacting it's uh, it's order
right we see this often, right?
(39:35):
Um, that's what I was thinkingpeople who want to cozy up to
the powers that be, even thoughthey are, uh, dejected by those
powers, thinking there'll besome sort of reward, or or they
just buy into the that'snarrative, right, they yep,
keeping people in the rightplace, kind of thing and I think
it's it's common to, and it wascertainly common in the
victorian mind to considereverything in like these huge
(39:57):
dichotomies.
Don (39:58):
Um, and in modern gender studies, looking back at the
victorian period, we have these,the theories of, like the the
angel in the home, right, versusthe the mad woman in the attic
or right.
Ron (40:10):
They were trying to split those two, um.
Don (40:12):
But?
But more recent gender studiesis looking at how the different
types of oppression that thatmarginalized groups experience
all intersect.
And it's not really that blackand white Right, um.
And so this woman, if she, if,if Jack the Ripper were a woman
or any other murder who is awoman is like it is an
(40:34):
expression of power.
It's taking power away from Ican take a life Right, but it's
not a helpful exercise of power.
I would argue that even thesmall exercise of power the
victims were taking in their ownlives is a powerful exercise of
(40:56):
power.
They are showing that they canbe successful even though the
system is completely againstthem.
Ron (41:01):
Yeah, a hundred percent Right Like, like.
That is cool to see.
We we often talk about andelevate uh people who come from
the lowest ranks of society andare able to uh eke out an
existence or even become moresuccessful than that Right Like,
and we say that buildscharacter, that builds strength,
that builds, uh you know, lotsof positive kinds of things.
(41:21):
Um that, uh, I've always kindof viewed murderers or violent
criminals as people searchingfor power, right For for and
this speaks to to male murderersas well right, a lot of the
times men act more violentlybecause they are raised in
patriarchal societies that tellthem that, uh, they, they have
(41:45):
access to power, um, inherentlyright and then they find out
that's usually not true right,like the
the real power is kind of heldby an even more specialized
class than just all men, andthen the realization that they
don't have that power causesthem to lash out and seek it in
ways where they can.
And yes, it's often notconstructive, because it's
actually hard to achieveconstructive power.
(42:07):
But it is very easy to usedeconstructive power, right,
harmful power, especially as aman frequently, and I think that
would describe male Jack theRipper and potentially female
Jack the Ripper as well.
Doug (42:24):
Jill the Ripper.
I'm very curious about,culturally, what's going on in
London at the time too, becauseobviously I could make some
assumptions about where we're atclose to turn of the century,
um in London.
But I'm wondering too like I'mputting myself in the
(42:47):
hypothetical that I am Jill theRipper and I'm going out uh
again, public intoxication,sometimes prostitution, maybe it
wasn't always right why I'mdoing this.
And I think, going back to whatwe originally talked about,
this is another thing that Ithink is inherent in the ideas
of true crime is you're askingthe question what would drive
(43:10):
somebody to do this?
This one is interesting, Ithink, especially interesting to
me, because I'm not looking atsomething that's uh.
Would you guys agree that mosttrue crime like uh podcasts,
these types of things likethey're almost always
american-centric, like uh 1950son, like I?
Ron (43:30):
I'm trying to think you mean like the cases they cover
yeah, usually yeah, it seemedlike there was that.
You know, quote unquote goldenage of serial killers, right or
like and I don't know what theum, why that was.
I don't know if it was justlike the media in this case also
was like really, uh, glommingonto those stories and
(43:52):
publishing them and publicizingthem.
But it did seem like, yeah,there's, there is a archetypal
post-50s stereo serial killerstory that we could all probably
rattle off yeah, without evennaming correct versus.
Doug (44:07):
I'm thinking about this era and I'm like, well, I
haven't lived through anythinglike this, uh, this turn of the
century england, um, and so I'mwondering, like, what sets up
these conditions that somethinglike this occurs?
Don (44:20):
well, there's a lot of things happening right.
So, um, we're well into theindustrial revolution.
We are, uh, we're living in anage now where trains are a thing
.
So in victoria's reign we gofrom no trains to trains.
So it, um, people are moremobile, um, society is more
mechanized and industrial and,you know, rely it upon
industrial.
Ron (44:41):
Um, uh, mechanism, uh, so we had telegraphs right, so
we've got telegraphs,communication is happening um,
newspapers right are, aretelling these stories, including
images of, of the, the victims.
Don (44:54):
There's actually um, uh, we've got some of the first,
like crime scene photos, uh,from Jack the Ripper, um and uh,
and post-mortem photos of the,of the, the ways to commodify,
and and uh, also, um, you sellthat story are available.
(45:19):
But culturally, our queen isaging, um, our empire is is
getting smaller, Um, uh, there's, I think there's like an
anticipation of the end ofVictoria's reign coming and
she's seen less and less.
She doesn't pass away until 1901.
So there's still, you know, 12,13 years, but like, obviously
(45:40):
you don't know that at the time.
So there's a sense I think oflike a waning of culture in the
lead Victorian period where theearlier Victorian period was
more about the robustness andthe the spread of the empire and
the spread of, or the expansionof, technological power.
Doug (46:01):
So if we're looking at the end of an era and there's a
question about where are wegoing, yeah, like you start to
forgive, I'm really projecting alot onto this so like, anyway,
we can take this any way we want.
But then I'm like, yeah, I'mwondering if, if, if I am a
woman that is seeing this at thetime and I'm seeing like some
(46:23):
of the in quotes, like wouldthis be the type of person that
looks at this as like this isdecay, you know, like this is
decay for me.
I could see them easily jumpingon this bandwagon of like I
will assault and harm and killthese women, because this is
part of my statement towardswhat I'm making, but it's it's
hard because, guys, I don't killpeople regularly so this is not
(46:46):
uh and let me take another stepyou heard it here first
breaking news.
Absolutely, I've never killedanyone, uh that's why we invited
you on.
We thought you were the livedexperience expert absolutely
apologies to let you down today.
But I'm just thinking yeah, I,I could see it.
Don (47:05):
I could see it can I throw one other story at you?
Doug (47:09):
yes, please so this.
Don (47:10):
There's one other uh case that it's brought up in this
context of of the femalepossibility of a of a jack, a
female jack um, and that's the,the murder of uh committed by a
woman named kate webster, whowas an irish woman.
Uh was living as a maid inengland um and uh in in 1879,
(47:32):
march 2nd 1879.
She murders her um her mistress, so the, the woman of the house
um brutally uh and inside thehouse and then realizes she has
to get rid of the evidence um.
so she, uh, she dismembers thebody inside the house and tries
(47:54):
to get rid of the pieces byboiling some of them in the
laundry tub, throwing piecesinto the river, and so this case
gets brought up.
So she's tried in 1879 andexecuted in 1879, 10 years
before, nine years before Jackthe Ripper.
(48:14):
Um is a thing, so she's not asuspect per se.
But when we're talking about,like, what are women capable of?
And you know why are we onlylooking at male suspects?
And because you know, womendon't have the strength and
women don't have the, the, thefortitude, or the, the, the
stomach for the, the brutalityand the gruesomeness.
(48:35):
What, uh, what uh, kateWebster's case does is show
exactly the opposite.
Like her case, her murder is sobrutal.
She actually um, uh, puts on,puts on her um mistress's
clothes and uh, pretends thatit's that she's her for two
weeks in the house and pretendsthat she's her for two weeks in
the house.
She sells the furniture, actingas Mrs Thomas, her victim and
(49:02):
the neighbors get suspiciousafter about two weeks Wait.
Ron (49:04):
That adds such a cool element to this right.
If you wanted more of a like.
What anxiety is she acting outof?
It's so clearly this sort ofclass anxiety.
Don (49:16):
Right, it's like well, I may as well just literally
become this person, right andshe flees to ireland, is caught
and brought back and again triedexecuted within three weeks.
But the other thing I think isinteresting is that that idea of
disguise, yeah, yes right.
So she commits a murder andthen disguises herself to cover
it up.
Which jack has to be doing thattoo, whether it's a man or a
(49:38):
woman, like it has to be aneffort to disguise who you are.
Yeah, because you can't walkaround you know portraying
yourself as the serial killervery norman.
Ron (49:48):
It kind of reminds me if you let me be a little bit of a
of an english teacher oh my gosh.
Um, uh, it reminds me this is,this is let me be a little bit
of a of an English teacher oh mygosh, it reminds me.
This is this is Macbeth, right?
This is Lady Macbeth and herunsex me speech, right?
The idea that, like for a womanto to to become powerful, has
to in some way become a manright, I have to my sex is
(50:10):
holding me back.
I have to.
My sex is holding me back.
Therefore, I must adopt thefaculties of a man in order to
actually get what I want to be apowerful agent in this world,
right.
Don (50:20):
Yeah, the same thing.
Beatrice says the same thing inMuch Ado.
Ron (50:25):
It's a theme that Shakespeare circles back to that
.
Don (50:29):
Oh, that I were a man, I would eat his heart in the
marketplace.
Ron (50:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don (50:33):
So yeah, yeah that same idea that you have to be the
right gender to to exercise thattype of power, um, but also the
always the association withviolence is men right that, uh,
that um, men have the ability tobe violent for good and for ill
, right, frequently for ill,yeah indeed I.
(50:55):
So I want to be clear, as we, aswe wrap up, that I don't think
that there's enough evidence tosay that Jack the Ripper was a
female.
I don't think there's enoughevidence to say that Jack the
Ripper was anybody.
There's there's been a lot oflike, even recently proof you
know proof, quote unquote of whoJack the Ripper was.
There's been DNA studies on on ashawl I think it was Catherine
(51:17):
Ito shawl actually um, that, uh,they use mitochondrial DNA to
trace it back to a Polishimmigrant.
But the, the um, thecounterpoint to that is DNA
experts say, well, it'smitochondrial DNA, like about
one out of a hundred peoplewould have that, that strain.
So, um, it doesn't really showmuch of anything.
(51:37):
There's been another study andthis one kind of plays in what
we're talking about.
They, they look at there's someDNA on the postage stamp that
was on the uh, one of theletters that was sent to the
police office and, uh, thepolice station and uh, and it
has uh markers.
Uh, that the DNA, the personwho licked the stamp was female,
Um, but again, the likelihoodthat that letter was a forgery
(52:00):
or came from somebody who wasn'tthe murderer, like we don't
really know.
So, um, so it's interesting thatthere's these, um, there's
these threads and these traces,but but, like Howley Rubinhold
saidinal said, I think the, the,what makes this story
interesting isn't really whothat murderer was, because it's
that's definitely something lostto time yeah, yeah but it's the
(52:21):
exploration of, of the dynamicsof like, like you point out,
doug, like this murderer andthese women who were victims,
and the society that they livedin was the product of women who
were victims, and the societythat they lived in was the
product of a bunch of uh of, ofintersecting tensions and and uh
and climates, and that set themall up to be at the places that
(52:42):
they were at the times thatthey were um, and exploring that
, I think, is what really isinteresting yeah, yeah, maybe
that is part of the thefascination with serial killers
in general.
Ron (52:53):
Right, they all, all the ones I think of all, are sort of
inseparable from their time andplace.
Right, the American killers aretelling, I think we explore
through the lens of Americanculture and American mid-century
and the change in Americathrough the civil rights
movement et cetera.
Right, and so I guess, yeah,jack is just another Jack or
(53:17):
Jill is just another example ofthis.
Different time, different place, right.
Don (53:21):
Which kind of relates to the topic that you had a few
episodes ago.
You know that there's thiscultural morphing of you know
the way that in that, in thatepisode about how people
experience you know phenomenathey can't explain.
But the same thing is true,like there are.
There have been motivations forpeople to commit murder for
thousands of years, but the waythat that power is interpreted
(53:43):
depends upon the culture of themoment.
That's right, yeah.
Ron (53:47):
And it's hard not to examine this one through the the
lens of gender, because of how,uh how, the victims are all
female, right, and now we havethis uh interesting quirky, like
you said, probably not true,but interesting in relief uh
idea that maybe the killer wasalso a woman, right.
And so how does that theninform our interpretation of
(54:09):
those gender dynamics?
Absolutely.
Don (54:13):
Well, thank you guys.
I appreciate the uh, theconversation and and uh
exploration.
A little bit about uh, aboutJack the Ripper.
You know, I you both told mehow you introduced, you were
introduced to the murders.
I didn't tell you my story, um,I was.
I lived it no no, hey, it wasme spoiler.
(54:40):
Um, I was 10 years old and Iwas visiting my aunt, um who, uh
uh, took us to a, a store, forsome reason, and ripperology.
Well, there was a book, Iremember it was called open,
open files and it was a wholebook of unsolved crimes and
there was a.
There was like a six pageexcerpt or section on Jack the
Ripper and uh, and I, and shetold me I could have a book to
read and that was one of thethings.
So and that's the book I picked.
(55:00):
I think it mortified her that Iwas choosing that as a 10 year
old Um.
Ron (55:04):
Oh no, he's just like every other boy.
Don (55:06):
I'm pretty sure that a phone call was made to my
parents.
But, uh, but I, I I read thatbook cover to cover but uh, jack
the Ripper was in it and thatdefinitely was sort of a
sparking of that interest.
Ron (55:18):
So, um, but there's another element here that I think we
haven't explored and maybe sayobviously say this for another
show, but the, the uh, the factthat there is no resolution,
right, that is also perpetuallyfascinating, right?
Don (55:30):
We, we are drawn to stories that we cannot put the fancy
bow tie on and you know, when Ifirst learned about it as a 10
year old, like that's definitelywhat my project was, like I was
going to, I was going to solveit by reading this six page
excerpt out of this book Right,but that was definitely the
project and the and the attemptand and and becoming more
(55:52):
comfortable with that.
Irresolution is a lifelongskill.
Ron (55:55):
Absolutely 100%.
Thank you so much, don.
This is not where I thought ourJack the Ripper conversation
would go, but I am a wiser andmore informed man now than I was
at the beginning of the show,and I can't always say that.
Doug (56:07):
It's good to be a Ripperologist.
Don (56:09):
You can always say that, Ron.
Doug (56:11):
Bye virologist.
You can always say that, Ron.
Thank you.
And and.
That's why you can't trustclowns with homemade salsa.
Ron (00:32):
No, I knew that that's old news.
Well, way to be an expert.
Ron's a know-it-all I grew upin a Mexican household, I know
everything about salsa.
Doug (00:44):
It's a qualification.
That's cool.
Don (00:47):
Welcome back to the Uncannery everybody.
My name is Don, I'm Ron Doughere, and we're back again to
chat with you all.
Hey, how was your Thanksgiving?
Doug (00:56):
It was well.
It's too stereotypical to sayhow thankful I am.
Ron (01:02):
Oh, man Boy, do you want to tell us how much you?
Doug (01:08):
respect us again.
Don (01:10):
It's uh thankful day, not respect day absolutely where the
pilgrim had and, uh, go out andshoot a turkey with a
blunderbuss can.
Doug (01:21):
Can I just drop the controversial opinion
immediately that turkey's notthat great.
Ron (01:26):
No, I'm 100% with you.
I've been saying this for years.
Thank you, I'm glad I finallyfound someone.
Don, where do you stay onturkey?
Don (01:33):
I'm a pro-turkey, but only on Thanksgiving.
Doug (01:35):
Because you want the dry bird once a year.
Don (01:38):
No, if you know how to cook it it's not dry, you should
come to.
Ron (01:46):
Thanksgiving at my house.
It's good.
I have had good turkeys before100%, but my wife's family does
the best thing with the turkey,which is like the better meal is
the day after ThanksgivingSandwiches.
Don (01:53):
Yep.
Ron (01:53):
And they get together and they make those club sandwiches,
and that's really what theturkey's for, I find.
Don (01:58):
Give me the ham on.
Ron (01:59):
Thanksgiving, and let me have the old turkey, between
sourdough bread and with a pieceof bacon.
Doug (02:05):
Full Thanksgiving spread.
You guys sleep through theentire day just to get to the
next one.
Ron (02:10):
Parle on the sandwiches I remember being a kid and like
hating Thanksgiving and beinglike boy there's no toys and I
just got to go to my grandpa'shouse and he sucks and he's
going to ruin the turkey we allknow this is pre-Christmas.
Okay, we had to dress up and itwas very like you know,
children should be seen, notheard, kind of you know family.
Don (02:28):
At the time, you had to dress up like in costume.
Ron (02:30):
Well, we had to dress like fancy, you know like Sunday best
type stuff, and we never had todo that for Christmas or
literally any other holiday.
So it was just sort of stuffy.
I suppose were my earliestmemories of Thanksgiving.
But I'm happy to report I'vecome 180 on my views of
Thanksgiving.
I love it very much.
I'm very glad to have thisopportunity.
I'm very respectful of thisopportunity to be with people I
(02:53):
love.
Don (02:53):
You know we're not having Thanksgiving now we don't have
to hold hands or anything.
I hate to tell you guys, but Idid try to make a turkey.
Doug (03:00):
It's coming out in the next five minutes.
I hope that you're ready.
Don (03:12):
I thought I a turkey.
It's coming out in the nextfive minutes, so I hope that
you're ready.
I thought I heard something.
It's gonna be dry, let's get apizza.
Oh, speaking of killing thingslike birds, um, I was, uh, I've
been scrolling through my uh, mypodcast app, trying to find new
things listen to on the way towork and, uh, and you know, what
you can't escape is, you cannotescape a podcast about true
crime like try which like they,you.
They just pop up, they're like a, they're like a plague yeah,
(03:33):
yeah, the, the.
Ron (03:35):
That's like a inherent human interest, right?
You can always rely on it.
Right, it must be like beforethere were podcasts.
Was there a radio station thatjust talked?
Don (03:43):
about murders it was called the news.
Yeah, yeah, I guess, yeah, yeahabsolutely or unsolved
mysteries.
Doug (03:50):
Right, unsolved mysteries was awesome.
Yeah, everybody's gonna getinto that.
Ron (03:54):
That guy was so smoky right yeah, cops was fun, but cops
was a different thing.
The cops is never like trulyhorrifying, like intellectually
it is, but not but not likeviscerally or it makes me sad
for humanity yeah, yeah,absolutely yeah.
Doug (04:14):
It was truly filled with crime, though I can at least
tell you that I remember likebeing a kid and being like dad.
Ron (04:20):
Why are they outside another motel in gainesville?
That's the only place that hascrime.
Doug (04:26):
Ron, don't go there.
We just lost all of ourGainesville listeners.
Ron (04:32):
I want to apologize on behalf of the uncannery.
No, no, they're back.
They just want to be on the mapwe got you.
Sorry, don you were saying well, no, cause.
Don (04:39):
It's interesting point that you bring out, because there is
like a moment in history wherewhere crime becomes narrative
and I don't think like if you goback a few hundred years, like
I don't think you have crime asthe narrative, the, the things
you talk about at parties, likethere's gossip about crime and
it's a little bit scurrilous,but it's not, uh, uh, it's not
the, the entertainment thatpeople are looking for.
(05:00):
That it does.
It has become today, I thinkthat, right.
So you listen to a podcast topass the time, but to be
entertained by the story ofthese horrible things that
happen to other people or thatother people have committed um.
So I think that's an interestingmoment and actually we're going
to talk about that very momentwhere that that shift happens,
where crime becomes story.
But before we get there, umtalk about why people like true
(05:25):
crime.
So you bring up a lot of goodpoints, ron.
I also think there's a littlebit of psychological distance
that it allows you to experimentwith.
We just talked about terror alittle while ago right.
And hearing like these are realhorror stories.
Ron (05:43):
They're not fictional horror stories but you're still
experiencing it vicariously froma safe distance and yeah, I
always wondered if it wasconsidered instructive in some
way right Like don't do this andcrime won't happen.
Don (05:55):
Sort of right.
Ron (05:57):
Like a lot of the people I know who are very interested in
true crime media are women, andthen, and then it's like, I
think, partly a release ofanxiety for them, um, uh, like,
uh, I don't know, like I I usedto listen I'm not trying to like
(06:17):
this like, say, I'm too coolfor true crime, like some of the
first podcasts I listened towere also true crime podcasts,
but at some point I started kindof getting just sort of like
feeling kind of gross about how,yeah, that that entertainment
aspect that you mentioned, don,that we were like taking like
the victims are frequently thepeople who get sort of forgotten
paradoxically in the true crimestories.
(06:39):
Right, they are merely, youknow, agents who have things
done unto them.
And then we are interested inthe actor who is the criminal.
Doug (06:48):
You're not wrong because the victim.
I think that there's a certainnow it's interesting that you
said a release of that anxiety.
Listening to that, my poor wifethat I'm going to cite now,
obsessed, just absolutely lovesit, and I think that so many of
the lock the doors even whenI'll be back in five minutes,
(07:09):
like just go into the car.
I think a lot of that comesfrom that to a certain degree,
and I I think that there is thisunbelievable, could this happen
to me too?
I think it's interesting.
I agree with you that how couldsomebody ever do this, like in
the killer, and then we kind ofI don't know if fetish size is
exactly the right word, butmaybe to a certain degree,
(07:30):
fetish size like the idea.
But also I think that there's acertain amount of projection of
what if this was me, cause thisseems like the idyllic it.
They were living in completelynormal life and then they met Ed
Gein, you know, like or whoever.
Whoever decides to show up, itbecomes very disturbing, and so
I don't know if that's I.
Ron (07:50):
I don't have anything to back that up but it kind of
reminds me of the what was itthis summer, or maybe further
back that, the, the kind of aTik TOK conversation.
Every now and then it seemslike there's this sort of uh,
gender studies question thatgrabs the popular discourse.
You know the would you choose abear or a man question from a
while ago.
Doug (08:11):
And then I didn't hear that.
You didn't hear this one Reallyexcited.
Ron (08:13):
The idea was like hey, if you're, if you're a woman and
you're hiking in nature I don'tremember the setting exactly who
would you rather have to?
Who would you rather encounteralone in the woods, a man or a
bear?
And the sensational kind of the.
the revelation was that mostwomen were like I would much
rather encounter a bear the ideabeing that, like, yes, it's a
(08:34):
dangerous animal, but in someways it is more predictable than
than a man, uh, or, or at leastum, their past experience had
taught them to be more fearfulof the power that men hold over
them than a wild animal does.
And lots of people blew up atthis, agreeing, disagreeing,
(08:54):
being angry, blah, blah, blah.
But the one I was thinking ofwas there was also the thing
about like, how often do menthink about ancient Rome?
Doug (09:01):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that one I knew about and I remember
having that conversation.
Ron (09:05):
I was like I think about Rome a lot.
I mean, I feel like Rome haspopped up on every single one of
these podcasts and I think thepoint of that one was like men
are are afforded more frivolousthoughts than women, and I think
true crime is part of that.
Right Like there is like, and Ithink true crime is part of
that.
Right Like there is, like I canI feel safe walking at night in
(09:28):
my neighborhood, right?
And my wife does not, and manywomen do not, and so I think the
preoccupation with true crimeis does just speak to the
differences in our thoughts andconcerns and priorities,
sometimes right when we havethis time to imagine something.
I like to think about theemperors of ancient Rome and the
(09:52):
mistakes they made that led tothe downfall of their
civilization.
And other people are like Ijust want to get home safely
tonight, you know, mm-hmm.
Don (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
So what do you think was thefirst big crime?
That was like the, the truecrime story, that that everyone
was following worldwide, like itwas.
It was big news and it wasfinally the moment where
journalism was making crime intoentertainment sinking of the
(10:21):
lusitania, but earlier than that.
Doug (10:27):
I'm earlier than.
We need a global new.
Ron (10:29):
When does global news happen?
Doug (10:30):
yeah, because I'm thinking the king was poisoned, but
that's probably only regionalyeah, yeah, yeah, you're talking
about the 1930s.
Don (10:38):
No, because that wasn't news until just like a couple
weeks ago no, no, no, no.
Doug (10:43):
I would imagine imagine like something medieval in a
sense.
But again, I don't think newsis traveling that fast.
Don (10:49):
No, I don't think so either .
I think it's gotta be muchlater than that, because news
wasn't news back then right.
News was just a story youhappened to hear after a huge
train of people told it to eachother.
Ron (11:02):
And it probably changed five times so that now there's a
monster in it which makes itmuch more interesting.
Doug (11:08):
Yeah, was not poisoned the dragon, took him, absolutely,
absolutely yeah, um first bigit's a it's a murder.
Don (11:16):
I'll tell you it's.
Ron (11:17):
It's a murder.
Don (11:17):
It's a murder spree.
What's the first big murderthat the news would have been
interested in as an institution?
Ron (11:26):
Jackie Boy, which one Jackie Boy, saucy Jack, jackie
Robinson, yeah, murdered thoseDodgers.
Doug (11:35):
Definitely murdered a baseball or two.
I'll tell you that.
Ron (11:40):
No, Jack the Ripper right, Is he the first one?
He is.
Doug (11:44):
Ah yeah, I know about him too.
Good job, Good pull, got him.
Don (11:47):
So yeah, because Jack the Ripper murders occur in 1888.
We've got telegraphs now thatare spread across the Atlantic,
so news can get to the UnitedStates from England as well as
elsewhere across Europe.
So it's actually a series ofmurder that that people are
following in real time.
Doug (12:06):
Okay.
Don (12:07):
Uh, as as real as real time could be back in 1888.
Um, so I've done a little bitof reading about Jack the Ripper
and I don't I don't know whatyour levels of expertise are
about Jack the Ripper what doyou guys know about?
Uh, about Jack, or about the?
Uh, the murders that areattributed to him?
Doug (12:23):
I've got.
Uh, the film was from hell,correct was?
Ron (12:28):
that the uh don's.
This is the most disappointed.
Doug (12:33):
He's been in you yet, you peasant uh well, no, I was gonna
list everything, so is it fromhell?
Ron (12:42):
from hell is from hell, but I know it as the it's a.
It's a graphic novel, right.
Don (12:46):
Alan it is more than the film.
Ron (12:49):
I've been told to read from hell.
I never have Okay.
Don (12:53):
Well, it's a graphic novel, Don't you just look at the
pictures?
Yes, it's still a readingexperience.
Now I'm disappointed in what asurprise.
Ron (13:00):
We were raised on graphic novels Don yeah, yeah.
Doug (13:06):
Heard about it from.
I think I was exposed to it abit in, yeah, talking about
media in history classes andthen taking a trip to London in
which I think we weren't doing aguided tour.
But I think we were told by thepeople that we were at the
(13:29):
hotel with, if you're interestedin going through the alleyways,
that uh, jack the ripper mademany famous killings.
They're these ones.
And I instantly looked at nikkiand she said, yeah, we got to
check it out, which is shockingto me because, yeah, normally
she'd be too freaked out to seethose.
Ron (13:45):
That's what I got.
I know probably less.
I've definitely like heard thispodcast a couple of times, like
I feel like it's a podcastright of passage and I'm glad we
finally are making ours.
Don (13:55):
Um, uh crossing the Rubicon .
Yeah, to bring up Rome.
Doug (14:00):
Hey, check the box.
Good to be here.
Ron (14:05):
I know the famous thing about it is that he was never
caught right, and so there'sstill many sort of extant
theories he's out there.
Don (14:14):
Lock your doors, hide your wife.
Ron (14:18):
There's still many extant theories about who he was right,
and I've actually never reallyunderstood why Jack the Ripper
is such an important crime story.
Is it because this is he's kindof the first?
Is he sort of?
Is he a template for othercrime stories to come?
Or was he?
Were the crimes actually sohorrific and have not yet been
matched?
Don (14:34):
and blah, blah, blah they've been matched, but, um,
but I think the the part you'resaying about being the first
real story about it, that's.
That's really the key, becausethe newspapers really are making
a story out of the, this seriesof murders and uh, and
popularizing it and bringing itto the public's attention in a
way that, like, like, murder hasbeen a thing for thousands of
(14:56):
years, Right and, and nobody hasreally cared about them.
But these, this particular setof five, somehow captured the
imagination of literally theworld and continues to today.
We need to take a littletangent for a second before we
get any further into the detailsthat we're going to talk about.
Sure, Because I want to creditHallie Rubenhold, who is an
(15:18):
author of a book called the Fivethe Untold Lives of the Women
Killed by Jack the Ripper soit's a 2019 book the untold
lives of the women killed byJack the Ripper Uh, so it's 2019
book.
She is a, an American, Britishhistorian, so a an American who
is a historian of Britishhistory, Um and uh, and she
wrote this book specifically toto try to change the
conversation about Jack Um,because for for a long, long
(15:42):
time, the focus has been onsolving the very question that
you brought up Like he's neverbeen.
We don't know who he is, Um,he's never been uh been caught.
Uh.
There's been over a hundredsuspects, um that were um
suggested over time.
Uh, when they were initiallydoing the investigation, they
interviewed over 2000, um peopleto get information from them,
(16:05):
and so that idea of who is hehas been like this, the
unattainable quest, for a longtime.
Ron (16:11):
There's people who call themselves ripperologists who
that used to be a surfer, Ithink.
How hard does he rip?
Don (16:19):
he's a ripperologist who study the crimes and continue to
look for clues and put forwardpossible suspects and possible
explanations.
And what Hallie Rubenhold isproposing in her book is that
for two things.
One is that it's futile to dothat because it's been so long
since the crimes occurred thatthere's no chance that we would
(16:42):
ever be able to find anythingconclusive occurred that there's
no chance that we would ever beable to find anything
conclusive.
But I think, more importantly,what what her project is is
elevating the lives of thevictims rather than glamorizing
the life of the murderer, yeahand, uh, and, and, rather than
just sort of dehumanizing themand dismissing them as the you
know, the, the chattel, the, theof the of the real event,
(17:04):
making sure that their storiesare the ones that are actually
what people focus on.
It's definitely cool.
Ron (17:09):
Yeah, yeah, and that's like what we said about right, like
that's.
And I'm sure there probably aretrue crime.
I don't want to like lump alltrue crime media outlets and
podcasts and shows together.
Maybe there is a change in inthat kind of genre to to do that
, to to center the victims andsort of memorialize them better.
Doug (17:28):
And.
Ron (17:28):
I'm glad that this book seems to be on that on that cusp
All right.
Don (17:35):
So that aside and and full respect to to Ruben holds
project, and I think she's doinga good thing, but for our story
today we do need to talk alittle bit about about the
crimes, and do you guys know howmany murders are included in
the Jack the Ripper canon?
Ron (17:52):
I don't know no.
Don (17:54):
So there's, there's five for sure.
Um, so they're.
They're referred to as thecanonical five, and their names
are Marianne Nichols, annieChapman, elizabeth Stride,
catherine Eddowes and Mary JaneKelly, one of the.
Well, do you know what theirprofessions were?
They were prostitutes right orat least some of them are.
That was what I remember andthat's what everybody says about
(18:15):
them.
And again go back to MsRubenhold.
One of the more controversialclaims that she makes is that
there's actually only evidenceof one of them, mary Jane Kelly,
actually working as a sexworker.
Okay, um, and that what herclaim is, and, uh, and, and I
don't have any information oneway or another to support her or
(18:37):
refute her, so I will take herat her.
Um, at her word, is that thereason that all of the others
are referred to as prostitutesis because that's how they're
recorded in police records.
Um, uh, so they were allarrested at some point and when
you are an indigent woman aloneon the streets, probably
inebriated, that's how you werereferred to in police records,
(18:59):
whether or not you were actuallyengaged in sex work at the time
.
Ron (19:03):
So wow, was this a so that they were they charging them
with prostitution, or was itjust a plain old?
Don (19:13):
like misogyny, like were they using this as?
Ron (19:15):
a further means to criminalize these people, or was
this just how they were?
I?
Don (19:20):
think primarily the second, but yes to both okay okay so
yeah, it was part of the thecharges that against them, but
it was mostly just a descriptionof who they were so that if
they were arrested again it wason their record and now we can
do whatever we want.
Ron (19:33):
Okay, um, they all happen between august and november of
1888.
Don (19:35):
All five of there.
There are a.
It was on their record and nowwe can do whatever we want.
Okay, all right.
Um, they all happen betweenAugust and November of 1888.
All five of them.
There are a couple outliermurders a little bit earlier and
a couple later that are less,uh, sure about.
Uh, whether or not they are areare part of his handiwork.
Um, but uh, what about the nameJack the Ripper?
Do you do you imagine that thatwas something that was added on
(19:57):
later?
Was that something that he cameup with before?
Ron (20:01):
he started You've got to brand everything first.
No, I'm a Ripperologist.
He said um, uh, I thought thatit was uh the.
The crimes are very violent,right Like uh, I don are very
violent, right like I don't.
Do they actually involve?
Doug (20:14):
I'm assuming they're knives as opposed to uh firearm
yeah it was a sharp instrumentfor sure yeah, I would think
that that would be tabloid.
Don (20:23):
Uh, you know addition so, uh, first murder is august 31st
of 1888 and uh, the secondmurder is september 8th 1888.
And then there's a little pauseand there's a letter that's now
called the dear boss letterthat was sent to the central
news agency in in London onSeptember 27th and and in that
(20:46):
letter a person claims to be themurderer and and signs the
letter, jack the Ripper.
Ron (20:54):
So it actually is uh coming from?
Don (20:57):
now there's a possibility that that letter was a hoax.
The, the, the police and newsagencies were getting quite a
few letters that have been shownto be hoaxes or shown to be
forgeries.
Um, even the ones that, uh, Ihave seen that, that are claimed
to be from the, you know,claimed to be um, authentic the
(21:17):
handwriting is completelydifferent between them.
So, um, so it's.
It's hard to tell where it camefrom, but that's where the name
came from and I think that's animportant date.
So it's just, it's receivedagain on September 27th 1888,
but we uh we need to talk for asecond about um September 30th
1888.
Actually, we'll start withSeptember 29th 1888.
Okay, all right.
So so far, um, we have had umuh two murders.
(21:42):
So we've had Mary uh MarianneNichols on August 31st and Annie
Chapman on September 8th.
On the night of September 30thuh, a woman named Catherine
Eddowes is arrested for publicintegration at 8 30 PM.
Um, just outside uh theBishop's gate um uh police
(22:02):
station.
That location is actuallyimportant because where she's
arrested, she's arrested by the?
Um the city police, the city ofLondon police, and their
procedures are different thanthe metropolitan police.
If she had been arrested abouta hundred feet away from where
she was, she would have beenarrested by a different police
(22:22):
department and she might havelived so okay, so they would
have presumably taken her backto the department with.
Ron (22:32):
The idea was like take him to station and then process them
.
Don (22:35):
So that's the.
So they did.
They brought her back to thestation and uh and booked her
for public inebriation and shefell asleep in the cell for four
and a half hours, first offpause real quick.
Ron (22:44):
Yes, um, how the hell are you booking everyone for public
inebriation in 1888?
Does that sound like animpossible task?
It?
Don (22:53):
is is, and it's certainly not something that they were
very successful at.
No, but the reason that she wasarrested?
She had called attention toherself.
There was a circle of peoplearound her laughing at her.
She was apparently imitating afire truck is what I understand.
Ron (23:09):
That's just.
Don (23:11):
she's just having fun, Then laid down to take a nap and a
little night-night and thepolice officer arrested her
Anyway.
So because of the city police,they take her back to city
police station and she's in whattoday would be called a drunk
tank for four and a half hours.
The reason that it matters isthe city police procedure was to
(23:32):
hold somebody until theysobered up enough that they
could manage themselves and thenrelease them.
So she was released from jailat 1am on September 30th 1888.
Her last words recorded to theuh the jailer was uh, good night
, old cock.
She did ask him before that whattime it was, and he, his answer
(23:56):
was sort of condescending, likesomething like uh, it's too
late for you to get somethingelse to drink, or something like
that.
So she, uh wandered off intothe the darkness, away from the
police station.
Um, she was next seen at uh one, somewhere between 135 and 140
in the morning by threegentlemen who were leaving a
(24:17):
club, one of whom was able tosee that she was with another
person.
She was with a man and he wasable to give a description of
her, of, sorry, of the man asbeing about five, seven, um,
slight build, had a medical bag,an oversized jacket, and within
(24:39):
10 minutes later, catherineEddow's body was found in Mitre
Square.
Wait, how many minutes?
Within 10.
10?
Yeah, okay, she'd beendisemboweled and the killer had
had time to do some facialmutilation and remove some
organs, and I think it was apretty comprehensive event for
only taking about 10 minutes.
Ron (25:00):
So the belief is, the last man she was seen with was the
her killer.
Don (25:03):
Right, and the fact that so much mutilation, especially of
the internal organs, happeningright after that indicates there
was some medical knowledge orsome anatomical knowledge.
Yeah, so, so that's the.
That's the only time that thepolice thought they maybe had a
witness who had seen Jack theRipper.
Okay, okay, so who might havethat kind of anatomical
(25:34):
knowledge?
Doctors Doctors would be a goodguess.
Ron (25:37):
Surgeons Surgeons Soldiers.
Do soldiers field dress eachother?
Don (25:44):
So there would be doctors and more likely, surgeons who
would have that knowledge frommilitary training Soldiers
themselves.
Maybe not Fishermen yeah,butchers too have a pretty good
sense of knowledge and so thosewere kind of the uh, um, the,
the, the main suspects thatpolice were on the lookout for,
(26:05):
and since two murders had takenplace before September 30th,
they were already on sort ofhigh alert on looking for, you
know, strange men wanderingalone at the night, and
especially if they were carryingknives around, I guess I don't
know.
Um but uh, but what kind ofpeople in Victorian England
would hold those, those, thoseprofessions?
Ron (26:29):
Um well, you still need an education to cut someone open.
I want to hope.
Don (26:35):
Absolutely.
Ron (26:35):
Educated men.
Don (26:37):
All right, what were you saying?
Why would you think it would bemen?
Doug (26:40):
I think it's a fair guess.
Oh, the era, yeah.
Ron (26:44):
You're pulling a trick on me that my mother pulled on me
when I was a teenager.
Don (26:47):
I was like what was that she?
Ron (26:50):
heard this story on Oprah or something and really wanted
to make the eyes pop out of myhead and it was like I can't
remember.
There's a car crash.
Right, you know what I'mtalking about, don yeah, can you
say it's a joke.
Don (27:03):
So yeah, yeah, it's a car crash.
And the doctor gets taken tothe doctor and the doctor says I
can't operate, oh, because thekids with a father.
So the father and the son arein the car crash right taking
the hospital and the doctortakes one look at the patient
and says I can't operate on thispatient.
Ron (27:18):
It's my son and you're supposed to be like how could
that be?
And I remember being like 10 or11, being like, yeah, I really
don't want he's got two dads.
My mom was like she's a woman,You're so progressive.
Don (27:43):
You.
My mom was like she's a woman,you're so progressive idiot.
So but actually that's a goodpoint because, yeah, we're
looking for for butcher who's aman, right?
Because yeah, yeah, you knowyou need this certain amount of
strength to to butcher animalsor you've got to have the
ability to go to medical school,which means that you are a man
with some means and ability toprovide for an education.
Can we put a pin in CatherineEddowes for a second?
And we'll circle back to therest of her story.
I want to jump ahead about twoyears, to 1890.
(28:06):
In 1890.
Ron (28:08):
Is this the trial of Jack the Ripper?
This?
Don (28:11):
is not.
Ron (28:12):
Turned out well.
No Justice is served thing.
Don (28:19):
Um turned out well.
No justice is served.
Um want to jump ahead to uh toanother, october 24th 1890.
Um, we're in a place just northof london called hampton
hamstead and uh, a woman namedum mary percy lives out there.
Uh, very respectable, has ahouse, has like afternoon tea,
invites people over.
One day she invites over awoman named Phoebe Hogg who has
(28:42):
an 18 month old daughter namedTiggy.
Ron (28:45):
These are fun Hogg and Tiggy coming over for tea in my
sick English household Right.
Don (28:54):
Anyway.
So Mary Percy kills Phoebe.
Oh okay, why do you do thissick english household right?
Um, anyway, so mary percy killsphoebe why do you do this
public inebriation?
man it'll do it, um, uh,actually pretty brutally, um,
crushes her head in with someblunt instruments, uh, cuts her
nearly, beheads her, okay, andthen smothers Tiggy, come on,
(29:17):
yeah, but she's not done,because you can't just have dead
bodies in your house.
So she actually uses the pramor the baby carriage to move the
body of Phoebe Hogg out of herhouse and out into the woods a
little ways.
And she's actually caughtmoving the woods a little ways
and, uh, and she's actually, um,uh, caught moving the, the, the
(29:39):
baby's body, out.
Um, the police arrest her.
They go inside the house.
There's blood spattereverywhere.
She's covered with blood.
She denies anything happened.
She actually says, uh, she'squestioned about why she's
covered with blood and there'sblood all over her house.
She was, uh, killing mice, um,yep, and uh with a jackhammer.
Doug (29:58):
Yeah, it's me trying to kill mosquitoes late at night.
Don (30:02):
So, uh, october 24th 1890, she winds up, uh, on trial, uh,
the beginning of december, uh,1890, just a month later, and is
executed, december 23rd 1890,for the murders of Phoebe Hogg
and her daughter.
Prior to her execution, shesays the following she says the
(30:23):
sentence is just, but theevidence is false.
So, yeah, so it's.
So she's kind of admitting tothe murders, but she's saying
there's something, there'ssomething not I really was
killing mice well, it's peoplestarted talking about.
Why would she say something likethat?
Why like?
(30:44):
Why would the evidence be false?
She was literally covered withblood right and the the their.
Their house was covered withblood and and she had a dead
baby with her and right.
Ron (30:54):
So did they try to conceive of some motivation?
Don (30:57):
like, why did this?
Yeah, phoebe was her lover'swife oh, okay but nonetheless
that cryptic gallows statementsort of like stuck in the public
imagination as it was reportedin the newspapers again, the
newspapers are making thestories out of these uh, these,
(31:18):
these, these true crime, right?
So it's the analog version ofthe true crime podcast um arthur
conan doyle.
You know who that is yeah, he's.
Ron (31:30):
Uh, I know his famous one, he's the fairies guy.
I think last time I need to dosome quick correction I think I
said hd well was into fairies.
Yeah, and I think it's conandoyle.
Don (31:39):
Conan doyle was I don't want to know about hd wells, but
hd wells was an intellectual.
Doug (31:44):
That's not usually the first thing, that people think
of when they say I'm gonna givethat one to me, right, it's
gonna be sherlock.
Don (31:51):
It's gonna be sherlock holmes yeah, well, uh, conan
doyle, uh, hears about marypercy's case, hears about her
cryptic gallows statement andthen says hey, I wonder if I can
make a story out of thosemurders that happened two years
ago.
Might not have been committedby a man.
Ron (32:13):
Oh.
Don (32:13):
Clever, clever Arthur, and actually postulates for a minute
that maybe Mary Percy had beenJill the Ripper.
Yeah, Interesting.
So a couple of things that hebrings up about it is how much
easier it would be for a womanto be invisible One because
nobody's looking for a woman.
No, there would be bejustifiable reasons why a woman
(32:37):
might have blood on her andstill be able to navigate the
streets without being questionedor seen.
Or, um, like a midwife.
He says, yeah, midwife woulddefinitely have a reason to be
floating around like that.
Um, so that raised that wholequestion of, like we're looking
for a man, the police arelooking for a man.
They increase their policepatrol.
(32:58):
Miter square, where CatherineEddowes was found, literally had
a policeman walk through itevery 15 minutes, and yet the
Ripper somehow found time tocommit this horrible murder.
As a matter of fact, heactually committed two murders
that night, and CatherineEddowes was his second event.
That's the famous night of tocommit this horrible murder.
As a matter of fact, heactually committed two murders
that night.
Catherine Eddowes was hissecond event.
(33:18):
That's the famous night ofwhat's called the double event.
Literally, 45 minutes beforeCatherine Eddowes' murder,
elizabeth Stride had beenmurdered about a half mile away.
So somehow the Ripper was ableto murder Elizabeth Stride, walk
a half mile through the streetsof London, probably covered
with blood, like you wouldn'thave time to change your clothes
Right and then meet CatherineEddowes and then convince her to
(33:40):
stay with you and then kill andmutilate her body and still
escape from the police.
How could you do that?
Unless you had some likespecial invisibility spell Right
?
Ron (33:50):
Right.
Don (33:51):
And what better invisibility spell than to be a
middle-aged woman wandering thestreets?
Doug (33:57):
what do you think?
Well, and even back to theoriginal physical description of
um the first murder, rightgiant trench, coat, doctor's bag
, you know the whole deal.
You're very covered up, so thatdetail we might instantly make
very masculine and it could verymuch be feminine.
Don (34:20):
So yeah, I see it I could see that because of the
oversized coat and the the.
There's three gentlemen leavingthe imperial club that night
that see katherine edo's and andthe the person that they're
with, the first to describe themas a couple.
Um, it's only the last one,linda, that says that it was a
man, and the fair mustache isthe thing that kind of throws me
(34:42):
off, like it.
I wonder if you know it's notwell lit, it's 1am in the
morning.
We're in london street or heactually sees her in a in a very
narrow passageway called JamesPassageway, which is one of the
entrances to Miner Square.
I wonder if it like you don'twalk around saying yeah, like a
shadow or something.
You don't walk around memorizingfaces, but then in hindsight
(35:04):
when you think oh my gosh, thatwas a murderer, I walked by.
Like you can create a lot ofdetails.
Like eyewitness statements arevery unreliable.
Ron (35:11):
Right, yeah.
So, arthur Conan Doyle, a lotof details, like eyewitness
statements are, are veryunreliable, right, yeah so, uh,
so arthur conan dole is thefirst one to kind of postulate
this idea does, does, does thishave any legs?
Do people at the time kind oflatch on to this in any way, or
is he kind of like laughed outof the smoking parlors?
Don (35:25):
so the primary investigator for the police department uh
says that the that all alloptions are on the table.
So, uh, as far as I know, theyinterviewed 2,000 people.
Not all of those were suspects.
They had about 100 suspects.
I don't know of any that wereactually female suspects that
were considered during the spreeof murders.
(35:46):
But then Mary Percy does getadded to that list after the
fact, after she's arrested andtried for the other murder.
I don't think it's got hugelegs to it, but I do think it's
a super interesting like.
It complicates the issue quitea bit.
Right, because we always assumethat Jack the Ripper is a man,
(36:07):
that he's punishing prostitutesfor some reason.
Right, the the crimes are superviolent.
They are based on um knowledgeof anatomy because of the, the
brutality and the speed andswiftness and the precision of
some of the cuts.
But that, like again, that'sall based on assumption that
women wouldn't have access tothat knowledge and that's not
necessarily the case, correct.
Doug (36:29):
And the fact like would they yeah, okay, all into the
stereotypes?
Would they yeah, okay, all intothe stereotypes?
Right, would they engage insuch brutal behavior?
Why would they hate prostitutesin the same way?
And absolutely I could see themotivation for any of those
things you know.
Um, yeah, that's a lot to thinkabout.
Ron (36:47):
Are these uh motivations still kind of the like I'm
wondering about, like recent oror the contemporary
scholasticism on this case?
Right, that was always kind ofwhat I'd heard.
Also, was that Jack the Ripper?
He's an upset angry man who'susing righteous anger against
women right In a very like sortof nakedly patriarchal way,
(37:07):
right Like hey look, patriarchyexists, but we don't do
patriarchy that blatantly.
Right, like you know it's enoughfor these women to just sort of
toil and abject misery andpoverty.
We don't need to literally goin and start cutting them open.
Um, so then I suppose, likewhat then becomes the motivation
if we change the, uh, thegender of of the ripper, right,
(37:32):
does that story have to changealso, um, and, and how does that
?
How does that change ourperception of the women at the
time?
Right, right?
Don (37:41):
And that's a and I think that's a really interesting
thing to to ponder, because thelike one of the things that that
Hallie Rubenhold does well andand if you haven't read her book
, she does have a really goodpodcast.
That is like opinion to thebook called bad women, which I
would readily recommend.
The women who history haslabeled prostitute and history
(38:03):
has has dehumanized and historyhas said are, are lesser beings
that are just sort of the waste.
The real story is, you know,the, the murderer, um, showing
how they actually were powerfulactors in their own lives and
(38:26):
how they tried to provide forthemselves, tried to provide for
their families and and weresuccessful to a certain extent
until, of course, they, theywere cut short.
So that idea of, you know,operating within a patriarchy
that is not giving you any ofthe advantages and then
elevating the women's lives, butthen what if the murderer is
(38:49):
part of that?
You know the one uh, subjugatedby the patriarchy.
What does that do to themotivations?
Like, why would you do thatright?
So there's possibilities that Ican think of, right, like, uh,
uh, competition, yeah yeah, yeahright, yeah, replacement, yeah,
yep, um, uh, any others you canthink of?
Ron (39:11):
um even even the same sort of righteous anger right.
Doug (39:14):
Yes.
Ron (39:14):
Like there is, hey, there is a acceptable social hierarchy
, and even though I I am also amember of the class that is not
favored by that hierarchy, butthere is that sort of um, uh, I
will, I will gain that favorshipby enacting it's uh, it's order
right we see this often, right?
(39:35):
Um, that's what I was thinkingpeople who want to cozy up to
the powers that be, even thoughthey are, uh, dejected by those
powers, thinking there'll besome sort of reward, or or they
just buy into the that'snarrative, right, they yep,
keeping people in the rightplace, kind of thing and I think
it's it's common to, and it wascertainly common in the
victorian mind to considereverything in like these huge
(39:57):
dichotomies.
Don (39:58):
Um, and in modern gender studies, looking back at the
victorian period, we have these,the theories of, like the the
angel in the home, right, versusthe the mad woman in the attic
or right.
Ron (40:10):
They were trying to split those two, um.
Don (40:12):
But?
But more recent gender studiesis looking at how the different
types of oppression that thatmarginalized groups experience
all intersect.
And it's not really that blackand white Right, um.
And so this woman, if she, if,if Jack the Ripper were a woman
or any other murder who is awoman is like it is an
(40:34):
expression of power.
It's taking power away from Ican take a life Right, but it's
not a helpful exercise of power.
I would argue that even thesmall exercise of power the
victims were taking in their ownlives is a powerful exercise of
(40:56):
power.
They are showing that they canbe successful even though the
system is completely againstthem.
Ron (41:01):
Yeah, a hundred percent Right Like, like.
That is cool to see.
We we often talk about andelevate uh people who come from
the lowest ranks of society andare able to uh eke out an
existence or even become moresuccessful than that Right Like,
and we say that buildscharacter, that builds strength,
that builds, uh you know, lotsof positive kinds of things.
(41:21):
Um that, uh, I've always kindof viewed murderers or violent
criminals as people searchingfor power, right For for and
this speaks to to male murderersas well right, a lot of the
times men act more violentlybecause they are raised in
patriarchal societies that tellthem that, uh, they, they have
(41:45):
access to power, um, inherentlyright and then they find out
that's usually not true right,like the
the real power is kind of heldby an even more specialized
class than just all men, andthen the realization that they
don't have that power causesthem to lash out and seek it in
ways where they can.
And yes, it's often notconstructive, because it's
actually hard to achieveconstructive power.
(42:07):
But it is very easy to usedeconstructive power, right,
harmful power, especially as aman frequently, and I think that
would describe male Jack theRipper and potentially female
Jack the Ripper as well.
Doug (42:24):
Jill the Ripper.
I'm very curious about,culturally, what's going on in
London at the time too, becauseobviously I could make some
assumptions about where we're atclose to turn of the century,
um in London.
But I'm wondering too like I'mputting myself in the
(42:47):
hypothetical that I am Jill theRipper and I'm going out uh
again, public intoxication,sometimes prostitution, maybe it
wasn't always right why I'mdoing this.
And I think, going back to whatwe originally talked about,
this is another thing that Ithink is inherent in the ideas
of true crime is you're askingthe question what would drive
(43:10):
somebody to do this?
This one is interesting, Ithink, especially interesting to
me, because I'm not looking atsomething that's uh.
Would you guys agree that mosttrue crime like uh podcasts,
these types of things likethey're almost always
american-centric, like uh 1950son, like I?
Ron (43:30):
I'm trying to think you mean like the cases they cover
yeah, usually yeah, it seemedlike there was that.
You know, quote unquote goldenage of serial killers, right or
like and I don't know what theum, why that was.
I don't know if it was justlike the media in this case also
was like really, uh, glommingonto those stories and
(43:52):
publishing them and publicizingthem.
But it did seem like, yeah,there's, there is a archetypal
post-50s stereo serial killerstory that we could all probably
rattle off yeah, without evennaming correct versus.
Doug (44:07):
I'm thinking about this era and I'm like, well, I
haven't lived through anythinglike this, uh, this turn of the
century england, um, and so I'mwondering, like, what sets up
these conditions that somethinglike this occurs?
Don (44:20):
well, there's a lot of things happening right.
So, um, we're well into theindustrial revolution.
We are, uh, we're living in anage now where trains are a thing
.
So in victoria's reign we gofrom no trains to trains.
So it, um, people are moremobile, um, society is more
mechanized and industrial and,you know, rely it upon
industrial.
Ron (44:41):
Um, uh, mechanism, uh, so we had telegraphs right, so
we've got telegraphs,communication is happening um,
newspapers right are, aretelling these stories, including
images of, of the, the victims.
Don (44:54):
There's actually um, uh, we've got some of the first,
like crime scene photos, uh,from Jack the Ripper, um and uh,
and post-mortem photos of the,of the, the ways to commodify,
and and uh, also, um, you sellthat story are available.
(45:19):
But culturally, our queen isaging, um, our empire is is
getting smaller, Um, uh, there's, I think there's like an
anticipation of the end ofVictoria's reign coming and
she's seen less and less.
She doesn't pass away until 1901.
So there's still, you know, 12,13 years, but like, obviously
(45:40):
you don't know that at the time.
So there's a sense I think oflike a waning of culture in the
lead Victorian period where theearlier Victorian period was
more about the robustness andthe the spread of the empire and
the spread of, or the expansionof, technological power.
Doug (46:01):
So if we're looking at the end of an era and there's a
question about where are wegoing, yeah, like you start to
forgive, I'm really projecting alot onto this so like, anyway,
we can take this any way we want.
But then I'm like, yeah, I'mwondering if, if, if I am a
woman that is seeing this at thetime and I'm seeing like some
(46:23):
of the in quotes, like wouldthis be the type of person that
looks at this as like this isdecay, you know, like this is
decay for me.
I could see them easily jumpingon this bandwagon of like I
will assault and harm and killthese women, because this is
part of my statement towardswhat I'm making, but it's it's
hard because, guys, I don't killpeople regularly so this is not
(46:46):
uh and let me take another stepyou heard it here first
breaking news.
Absolutely, I've never killedanyone, uh that's why we invited
you on.
We thought you were the livedexperience expert absolutely
apologies to let you down today.
But I'm just thinking yeah, I,I could see it.
Don (47:05):
I could see it can I throw one other story at you?
Doug (47:09):
yes, please so this.
Don (47:10):
There's one other uh case that it's brought up in this
context of of the femalepossibility of a of a jack, a
female jack um, and that's the,the murder of uh committed by a
woman named kate webster, whowas an irish woman.
Uh was living as a maid inengland um and uh in in 1879,
(47:32):
march 2nd 1879.
She murders her um her mistress, so the, the woman of the house
um brutally uh and inside thehouse and then realizes she has
to get rid of the evidence um.
so she, uh, she dismembers thebody inside the house and tries
(47:54):
to get rid of the pieces byboiling some of them in the
laundry tub, throwing piecesinto the river, and so this case
gets brought up.
So she's tried in 1879 andexecuted in 1879, 10 years
before, nine years before Jackthe Ripper.
(48:14):
Um is a thing, so she's not asuspect per se.
But when we're talking about,like, what are women capable of?
And you know why are we onlylooking at male suspects?
And because you know, womendon't have the strength and
women don't have the, the, thefortitude, or the, the, the
stomach for the, the brutalityand the gruesomeness.
(48:35):
What, uh, what uh, kateWebster's case does is show
exactly the opposite.
Like her case, her murder is sobrutal.
She actually um, uh, puts on,puts on her um mistress's
clothes and uh, pretends thatit's that she's her for two
weeks in the house and pretendsthat she's her for two weeks in
the house.
She sells the furniture, actingas Mrs Thomas, her victim and
(49:02):
the neighbors get suspiciousafter about two weeks Wait.
Ron (49:04):
That adds such a cool element to this right.
If you wanted more of a like.
What anxiety is she acting outof?
It's so clearly this sort ofclass anxiety.
Don (49:16):
Right, it's like well, I may as well just literally
become this person, right andshe flees to ireland, is caught
and brought back and again triedexecuted within three weeks.
But the other thing I think isinteresting is that that idea of
disguise, yeah, yes right.
So she commits a murder andthen disguises herself to cover
it up.
Which jack has to be doing thattoo, whether it's a man or a
(49:38):
woman, like it has to be aneffort to disguise who you are.
Yeah, because you can't walkaround you know portraying
yourself as the serial killervery norman.
Ron (49:48):
It kind of reminds me if you let me be a little bit of a
of an english teacher oh my gosh.
Um, uh, it reminds me this is,this is let me be a little bit
of a of an English teacher oh mygosh, it reminds me.
This is this is Macbeth, right?
This is Lady Macbeth and herunsex me speech, right?
The idea that, like for a womanto to to become powerful, has
to in some way become a manright, I have to my sex is
(50:10):
holding me back.
I have to.
My sex is holding me back.
Therefore, I must adopt thefaculties of a man in order to
actually get what I want to be apowerful agent in this world,
right.
Don (50:20):
Yeah, the same thing.
Beatrice says the same thing inMuch Ado.
Ron (50:25):
It's a theme that Shakespeare circles back to that
.
Don (50:29):
Oh, that I were a man, I would eat his heart in the
marketplace.
Ron (50:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don (50:33):
So yeah, yeah that same idea that you have to be the
right gender to to exercise thattype of power, um, but also the
always the association withviolence is men right that, uh,
that um, men have the ability tobe violent for good and for ill
, right, frequently for ill,yeah indeed I.
(50:55):
So I want to be clear, as we, aswe wrap up, that I don't think
that there's enough evidence tosay that Jack the Ripper was a
female.
I don't think there's enoughevidence to say that Jack the
Ripper was anybody.
There's there's been a lot oflike, even recently proof you
know proof, quote unquote of whoJack the Ripper was.
There's been DNA studies on on ashawl I think it was Catherine
(51:17):
Ito shawl actually um, that, uh,they use mitochondrial DNA to
trace it back to a Polishimmigrant.
But the, the um, thecounterpoint to that is DNA
experts say, well, it'smitochondrial DNA, like about
one out of a hundred peoplewould have that, that strain.
So, um, it doesn't really showmuch of anything.
(51:37):
There's been another study andthis one kind of plays in what
we're talking about.
They, they look at there's someDNA on the postage stamp that
was on the uh, one of theletters that was sent to the
police office and, uh, thepolice station and uh, and it
has uh markers.
Uh, that the DNA, the personwho licked the stamp was female,
Um, but again, the likelihoodthat that letter was a forgery
(52:00):
or came from somebody who wasn'tthe murderer, like we don't
really know.
So, um, so it's interesting thatthere's these, um, there's
these threads and these traces,but but, like Howley Rubinhold
saidinal said, I think the, the,what makes this story
interesting isn't really whothat murderer was, because it's
that's definitely something lostto time yeah, yeah but it's the
(52:21):
exploration of, of the dynamicsof like, like you point out,
doug, like this murderer andthese women who were victims,
and the society that they livedin was the product of women who
were victims, and the societythat they lived in was the
product of a bunch of uh of, ofintersecting tensions and and uh
and climates, and that set themall up to be at the places that
(52:42):
they were at the times thatthey were um, and exploring that
, I think, is what really isinteresting yeah, yeah, maybe
that is part of the thefascination with serial killers
in general.
Ron (52:53):
Right, they all, all the ones I think of all, are sort of
inseparable from their time andplace.
Right, the American killers aretelling, I think we explore
through the lens of Americanculture and American mid-century
and the change in Americathrough the civil rights
movement et cetera.
Right, and so I guess, yeah,jack is just another Jack or
(53:17):
Jill is just another example ofthis.
Different time, different place, right.
Don (53:21):
Which kind of relates to the topic that you had a few
episodes ago.
You know that there's thiscultural morphing of you know
the way that in that, in thatepisode about how people
experience you know phenomenathey can't explain.
But the same thing is true,like there are.
There have been motivations forpeople to commit murder for
thousands of years, but the waythat that power is interpreted
(53:43):
depends upon the culture of themoment.
That's right, yeah.
Ron (53:47):
And it's hard not to examine this one through the the
lens of gender, because of how,uh how, the victims are all
female, right, and now we havethis uh interesting quirky, like
you said, probably not true,but interesting in relief uh
idea that maybe the killer wasalso a woman, right.
And so how does that theninform our interpretation of
(54:09):
those gender dynamics?
Absolutely.
Don (54:13):
Well, thank you guys.
I appreciate the uh, theconversation and and uh
exploration.
A little bit about uh, aboutJack the Ripper.
You know, I you both told mehow you introduced, you were
introduced to the murders.
I didn't tell you my story, um,I was.
I lived it no no, hey, it wasme spoiler.
(54:40):
Um, I was 10 years old and Iwas visiting my aunt, um who, uh
uh, took us to a, a store, forsome reason, and ripperology.
Well, there was a book, Iremember it was called open,
open files and it was a wholebook of unsolved crimes and
there was a.
There was like a six pageexcerpt or section on Jack the
Ripper and uh, and I, and shetold me I could have a book to
read and that was one of thethings.
So and that's the book I picked.
(55:00):
I think it mortified her that Iwas choosing that as a 10 year
old Um.
Ron (55:04):
Oh no, he's just like every other boy.
Don (55:06):
I'm pretty sure that a phone call was made to my
parents.
But, uh, but I, I I read thatbook cover to cover but uh, jack
the Ripper was in it and thatdefinitely was sort of a
sparking of that interest.
Ron (55:18):
So, um, but there's another element here that I think we
haven't explored and maybe sayobviously say this for another
show, but the, the uh, the factthat there is no resolution,
right, that is also perpetuallyfascinating, right?
Don (55:30):
We, we are drawn to stories that we cannot put the fancy
bow tie on and you know, when Ifirst learned about it as a 10
year old, like that's definitelywhat my project was, like I was
going to, I was going to solveit by reading this six page
excerpt out of this book Right,but that was definitely the
project and the and the attemptand and and becoming more
(55:52):
comfortable with that.
Irresolution is a lifelongskill.
Ron (55:55):
Absolutely 100%.
Thank you so much, don.
This is not where I thought ourJack the Ripper conversation
would go, but I am a wiser andmore informed man now than I was
at the beginning of the show,and I can't always say that.
Doug (56:07):
It's good to be a Ripperologist.
Don (56:09):
You can always say that, Ron.
Doug (56:11):
Bye virologist.
You can always say that, Ron.
Thank you.
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