November 12, 2024 • 60 mins
Ever wondered which board game might be the oldest in the world? Join us on a whimsical exploration as we tackle this age-old question, journeying through the annals of gaming history with a playful discussion on Parcheesi, Mancala, and the Royal Game of Ur. But the spotlight soon shines on backgammon, a game steeped in Mesopotamian heritage and filled with tales of familial bonding and even a quirky backgammon tattoo. As we reminisce over childhood memories of observing elders locked in strategic battle, we reveal how this ancient game, with its intriguing mix of skill and luck, continues to capture hearts across generations.
Take a closer look at the strategy behind backgammon, where simplicity meets depth in a dance of dice and decisions. Reflecting on its parallels with warfare and competition, we entertain the idea that all games, from chess to checkers, mimic grand conflicts or subtle rivalries. Despite its ancient origins, backgammon remains relevant today, thanks to modern platforms like Backgammon Galaxy that offer analytical insights akin to those in chess. Drawing from Tristan Donovan's "It's All a Game," we uncover why backgammon endures as a cultural mainstay, balancing predictability and surprise with every roll of the dice.
Our historical rollercoaster doesn't stop there. Discover backgammon's transformation from a Roman pasttime to a symbol of 20th-century high society, thanks to figures like Alexis Obolensky and the vibrant 1964 Bahamas tournament. From Roman legions to the Playboy Mansion, backgammon's social climb is as captivating as its gameplay. And as we dream of staging an "uncannery backgammon extravaganza" complete with fondue and vintage vibes, we invite you to imagine backgammon's revival worldwide, rekindling its timeless charm and strategic allure in homes and pubs once more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug (00:28):
Thank you, and just like that, another episode begins.
Welcome to the Uncannery.
I'm Doug, I'm Ron.
Don (00:38):
I'm Don.
Doug (00:40):
And we have much to discuss today about your
grandmother's favorite boardgame.
Ron (00:45):
Oh, perfect, I brought my notes.
Doug (00:50):
Handwritten.
Don (00:51):
I hope.
Doug (00:52):
Parcheesi.
Yeah, that's another goodselection.
Yeah, parcheesi is a good one.
One of the oldest actually Didwe know about the oldest board
games in the world?
Is it War the oldest?
Actually did we know about theoldest board games in the world?
Uh, is it war?
Talking about the 52 card deckof?
Ron (01:10):
your cards higher than mine .
Doug (01:12):
No, the geopolitical one of my favorite games, resulting
in the deaths of millions I'mgonna guess it's not chess.
Ron (01:20):
I feel like chess would frequently like if this is a who
wants to be a millionairequestion chess is on the board.
Don (01:25):
Right, I get it on the board.
Doug (01:29):
Regis somewhere right now is like he's won a million
dollars.
Yeah, yes, it would be thedistractor.
Don (01:36):
It's the one with the rocks and the little holes that you
count them.
Was it Mancala?
Is that what it's called?
Doug (01:41):
Oh yeah, contender, Contender, for sure.
Um yeah, there's somespeculation around this.
A lot of people will say it's agame called the royal game of
ur yes which I think was buriedin king tut's tomb, I believe in
like one of the sidecompartments.
Like he frequented this gameenough that it was buried with
him because he liked it so much.
Ron (02:02):
I was at the uh, the British museum once when we were
in London and they sell, uh, afacsimile copy of whichever
particular model of the Royalgame of her they have in display
there, and I was like, oh sick,I'm going to buy this and I'm
going to have a Royal game ofher all my own.
And it was too expensive.
Doug (02:19):
I was like, oh, that's a bit much well, you can be buried
with it someday yeah, I shouldhave told on the last episode
cannery yeah, we buried ron buryme with my game boy and my
coffee of pokemon red doug wasupset because pokemon blue is
(02:39):
the better one no, there's nosite there, in that one the fact
that you knew that, donald onlyplayed yellow.
Today we're going to talk aboutbackgammon.
Ron (02:52):
We're going to talk about backgammon.
Oh, this is the oldest one.
Oh, it's not, you misled us.
Doug (02:59):
Yeah, it's definitely old.
So backgammon we're going totrace all the way back to the
ancient Mesopotamian societies.
We see that if we're familiarat all, if we're not familiar,
let's get into it.
We've got a 24-point boardwhere these triangular shapes
are drawn and we use 15 checkersfor each team that are racing
(03:21):
around this board to get to theother side and be um bared off
the board, um, and the firstperson to be able to do that
wins.
And the reason I bring that upis if you think about um
simplest kind of forms of gamesthat you can create, um, the
thing that I find fascinating islike earliest inscriptions of
(03:42):
this um finder, like carved intothings, so not quite like
fossilized, but we see that thisis carved into a lot of places.
If you think about it like youcan go, you can make this in the
dirt technically, you knowyou'll be able to pull 15 of one
type of object, 15 of another.
Some of the earliest pairs ofdice that are carved into bones
are are surrounding this game.
But yeah, this goes way back.
(04:03):
We don't know if Batgammon'sthe one.
We do know it is older thanchess, though we do know that
it's older than chess.
Ron (04:12):
Do we know how old chess is ?
Do you have that information?
Doug (04:15):
I was just going to say.
Ron (04:16):
unfortunately I didn't do my chess research, but I'm
pretty sure Don has this in hisbrain.
Don, can you think real fast Ifyou had to make a guess, when
was chess made?
Sixth century, okay, awesome.
Thank you, don.
Doug (04:30):
You're welcome.
Ron (04:31):
See ya.
Doug (04:33):
This has been another episode of the uncannery.
Thanks for tuning in.
Don (04:35):
Can you tell me about backgammon?
My job is done, yeah.
Doug (04:39):
That's fun.
So, yeah, it's a much earlier,yeah, much earlier.
Yeah, bc.
And for obviously, startingleading with it's your grandma's
favorite game is probably notthe most exciting way to bring
this in, but the reason thatthis is significant is I was not
(05:00):
expecting to ever do a podcast,let alone talk about with
anyone for an extended period oftime, the game of backgammon,
cause it's embarrassing, yeah,it's.
It's beyond embarrassing.
It's my back tattoo.
That's a backgammon board,which the double pun of it being
on my back um really backellipsis gammon, and I put
(05:23):
actually bro just to
Don (05:24):
bring it into the modern context.
So by calling it mygrandmother's favorite game.
Is that supposed to be apejorative, or is that a?
Doug (05:32):
compliment.
I consider it a compliment nowbecause I think, because my
grandma was so cool.
Don (05:38):
Yeah, yeah, love your grandma, Haven't met her but I
love.
Doug (05:44):
I'm just going to send that love out.
Ron (05:45):
Yeah, yeah, my love's going wherever it needs to get
Careful.
Doug (05:50):
Uh, yeah, uh, looking at at backgammon, I never expected.
Uh, it would necessarily be atopic that I would even bring to
us, let alone a conversationthat lasts more than five
minutes.
But um, neither did we, yeahthat lasts more than five
minutes, but um neither did we?
Don (06:08):
Yeah, here we are.
This is minute six already.
Doug (06:10):
We're a thief, um, but I was shocked how enamored I was
with it, um, because we wererecently.
My wife and I were recentlygifted a set which led to us
buying a smaller magnetic setthat we've been playing before
we go to bed and, uh, juststrategically, tactically, uh
just kind of getting obsessedwith it and realizing like
(06:31):
there's a lot more to this thanI thought that there was.
Um, we uh for for our listeners, um, within the time, I uh have
forced both of these gentlemeninto a game of backgammon
recently.
Yes, will you share yourexperiences playing the game I
lost?
Don (06:49):
Yeah, I did too.
Doug must cheat.
Yeah, I think Doug was justlike.
Ron (06:53):
I just really need this today.
Guys, can you play this gamethat I'm not telling you the
strategies, for no, it was a fungame, I think.
Don (07:01):
And it was the first game you'd ever played.
It was the first game you'dever played.
It was the first game I'd everplayed.
Have you played it before?
I've played it before, notobsessively like Doug,
apparently, but I have played itbefore.
Ron (07:09):
It was a game I always saw.
I remember there would alwaysbe old people at family
gatherings, it's usually elderpeople playing backgammon in the
back.
I would sort of watch and belike, okay, there's something
happening here.
Don (07:26):
It was always cryptic, though, because, like there's no
markings on the pieces.
There's no directional arrows,there's no like.
It's not like Monopoly, wherethere's literally arrows and
icons and things to tell youwhat's going on.
Ron (07:46):
It's just a board of mystery yeah, like it.
Doug (07:47):
Like the spaces aren't like squares, which is like how
most modern board gamesdelineate that you are moving
across the board, yeah, yeah,and it's actually in some ways
kind of counterintuitive becauseyou're one of you is moving
clockwise, the othercounterclockwise um around the
board, which that can be kind ofillusory for people at first of
I'm going which way now, and so, even though it's usually a
pretty simple explanation in thebeginning, there's usually a
(08:07):
few hiccups along the way ifit's not something that you're,
you know, kind of a natural ator have played a few times.
But to me it comes across verymuch.
It's very sport-like in thatyou're looking at, you know,
kind of simple set of rules,easy to get into, hard to master
, um, where it's like, you know,mechanically, here's your field
, here's your players, here'swhat you're looking to do, and
(08:30):
within that realm a lot of thestrategy and tactics reveal
themselves as multiple playscome in Um.
But the fascination that I haveis that it's at its most basic
if I were to describe it as agame that's driven by dice.
So you will have this elementof random chance of that.
You're going to need to rolldice.
There are going to be a certainamount of spaces that you can
(08:51):
move.
Sometimes you can't move them,depending if a person's blocking
you, and so you need to makedecisions that are very tactical
, based on where these dice land.
But then there's an overallstrategy of how to position
yourself, and I think that thisis a very common theme that I
see in, like very classic gamesand sports, is positioning is
very important and I I so.
(09:12):
I think somewhere along thelines I realized there was a lot
more to it, but I just lovethat there was that little bit
of luck that, even though I canresearch the heck out of
different tactics or you can goon YouTube and you can find
there's a, there's a websitecalled backgammon galaxy.
Uh, that does like a a analysis.
Sick brother, it sounds reallycool.
(09:35):
You got a lot of friends.
Ron (09:38):
I know exactly what that website looks like.
Doug (09:42):
It's on geocitiescom, have an update.
It says no, to be fair, they'repretty modern, they're.
They're still running the bigtournaments, uh, that are around
, um, but yeah, there's, there'senough that people are doing
statistical analysis of gamesthat you can look at old games
and kind of go through in thesame way that you would with
chess, which I think most people, if you think of like
(10:04):
overanalyzed game, people aregoing to go to chess immediately
.
That would be my guess, right,but backgammon has a very
similar following and you mightthink that that's strange.
It's like, well, but you rolldice.
So there's always luck involvedand what's interesting to me is
, statistically we can see thatthe people who are consistently
the best, that maybe will play ahundred games, they'll win like
(10:24):
a majority of those games.
They will there just because ifthey're playing strategically
the best way within thestatistics of rolling, they'll
do really well.
But at a tournament, evensomebody who's been a winner
several times over because ofthe luck of those dice, you'll
get some people who justhappened to have a great game
and and we go from there andthat appeals to me.
Ron (10:45):
I like the fact that, uh, luck can swing your way, but you
also can play optimally excuseme, optimally yeah, there's like
, uh, that that random chanceelement is what makes it
accessible to everyone rightlike and also prevents it to a
to a degree, I take it frombeing completely figureoutable
(11:08):
right right, and I think thatthat's ultimately what makes
games not as fun like once itloses that magic.
Doug (11:16):
If there's something going on here, I wonder if I'm going
to win this one the second thatthat goes away.
I think that a lot of timesthat's what kills games and
that's going to be something wetalk about.
Is there is a?
I mean, yeah, I think if I wereto survey a group of people,
I'm wondering, like, what thesample size would be.
(11:37):
I think that, less thangenerally, it's not going to be
a very large portion of thepopulation that's played this
game regularly, if at all.
Generally, like, I find thatmost people that I've talked to
have not played backgammonbefore, but I've seen it.
Ron (11:51):
They're familiar with it, right?
Everyone's heard of it.
That was me I had never beenclose enough to play it or been
invited to play.
Don (11:57):
Why is it still a thing, then, if nobody plays?
Doug (11:59):
it that is what I'd like to talk about today is if we're
looking at this thing fromancient Mesopotamia that's shown
up, that we've got some looserecords of history and a lot of
this.
I'd like to shout out TristanDonovan, who wrote the book.
It's all a game.
I'm taking a majority, if notall, of my information from this
(12:19):
man today, who's done anamazing job of researching these
different games.
His book has been really fun toread, because I mean everything
from risk to the game of lifeto monopoly.
There's two different chapterson monopoly.
These games that kind of havebeen a part of our culture for
such a long time, where theycome from, where they're, where
they're headed, where they'vebeen.
(12:40):
He does a great job of lookingat the, the context of like,
where they fit in our world andhow kind of some of the untold
stories, and so what I'd like totalk about today is we've
discussed fads on this podcast.
The Uncannery has talked aboutfads, but when something Some
would say the Uncannery is a fad.
Ron (13:00):
Oh, hey, man, I'm just, I'm not me, Come on, brother, but
someone probably.
Doug (13:07):
To our listeners out there .
You know who you are.
You know this isn't a fad, allright.
This is a lifelong cult, ablood cult that we're all in.
Ron (13:15):
You're an uncannibal Once you get in, you can't get out,
or we eat you.
Doug (13:22):
But, yeah, I'm interested in this almost mythological
status that it's taken of.
It's popped up so many timesand it's become a sensation
again, a game, I said again.
In a way that is really strangeto me, because I agree to me,
(13:46):
because I agree it.
It's almost like why wouldn'tthis have died out by now,
because it's such a simple game,but it continues to kind of
show itself and so, um, ifyou'll allow me, we can start to
get into the history of it.
Shall we Sure?
I vote yes.
Okay, if you'd said no, thiswould have been a short podcast.
So I want to thank you.
I don't really have a choice I'munder contract our lawyers are
(14:08):
standing by, so call it um.
Let's go back to the romans,shall we?
The ancient romans, love theromans, okay they're fun yeah
why'd they have to inventdictatorship?
Don (14:20):
they play they play backgammon, but if you, you get
eaten by a lion.
Doug (14:26):
When you lose the game of Ludus.
Duodecim Scriptorum, you wereoften fed to lions.
Is not a fact, yes, this wasthe game of 12 lines which, as I
said in the beginning, what areyou talking about?
Don (14:41):
Wasn't there 24 points in this game.
Ron (14:49):
The Romans really had a knack for naming huh yeah, like
I've kick-started, somethinglike that before is your copy of
the game of 12 lines coming in.
Doug (14:54):
I just drew it on a piece of paper instead of spent 300 on
the kickstarter um, buteventually became tabula, the
latin word for bored, the originof all it's also a middle
eastern salad, yeah yes, it isand so we will be debating on
which one is better.
On the cannery uh, I'm goingwith backgammon here.
(15:17):
Um, I think the romans took iton, as with many cultural
activities that they did,because this game was played for
money.
The, the game was found, uh,boards were found carved into
courtyards of many villas.
In the ruins of pompeii therewere pieces of art, including
(15:39):
paintings depicting men playingit in a tavern before getting
into an argument and beingkicked out by an innkeeper.
Um caligula stood accused ofbeing a cheat in this game.
His successor, claudius, lovedthe game so much he wrote a book
about it and had a boardaffixed to his chariot so he
could play it while on the move.
And nero even reportedlygambled away enormous sums of
(15:59):
money playing the game, which Idon't think is a shocker to
anyone, considering nero'sincredibly compulsive habits,
like burning down his entirecity yeah, yeah he's gonna
gamble.
Uh, yeah, um, it fits, though,doesn't it like if there's gonna
be a game with like a simpleyou know fairly simple to get it
into, but you can win somemoney on it.
I think that it fits within thecontext of rome fairly well.
(16:21):
Um, the roman legions takeTabula to every corner of the
empire, including what is nowknown as Southern Germany,
france and the Netherlands, andit even made it to the empire's
Northern, most frontier, northof Britain, where the locals
took to calling it tables atthis time.
So we're still not into itbeing called backgammon yet.
(16:43):
That comes later.
But as legionnaires, um,retreated home, this game begins
to fade away.
And I think this is interestingbecause when, when we played
backgammon, did you feel like acertain sense of combativeness
in it?
Yeah, yeah, there's definitelyan aggressive element, right,
and and uh, for people whohaven't played, if you're, if
(17:05):
you ever leave a single checkeron a point, it leaves it exposed
that a person, if they roll theexact amount of spaces to land
on that checker, you have tostart that checker in the race
all over again from thebeginning, get it onto the board
and then race it around allover again.
And, yeah, I agree, it's verycombative, and so I.
So I don't know, hypothetically, do you think maybe there's a
(17:27):
connection here between thesewarriors and playing this game?
Don (17:32):
I do, I was gonna bring it up and and it was actually just
thinking maybe we shoulddescribe quickly how to play, in
case someone hasn't playedbefore it's a great point why
did I not think of this already?
Doug (17:42):
I think I got ahead of myself, didn't I?
Ron (17:44):
I let's just right now, let's speak all the characters
and link to a YouTube video thatwill teach them how Absolutely
Let me start with the ending.
Doug (17:53):
So, so, yeah, let me do my best with this, and then, yeah,
if I can get you to fill in,that would be great, great.
So, um, bad gamut is a gameplayed with 24 spaces, in which
both players can um, potentially, through the course of the game
, inhabit your setup on certainpoints and the spaces are those
(18:14):
triangular shaped things thatpeople have seen on boards.
Don (18:16):
Right, yes, called points.
Doug (18:18):
Yes, okay, yes um, as play starts, one player is moving
the other counterclockwisearound the board to try to get
their pieces all the way aroundthe board and off the board and
as they do that, they have torespond to rolling a set of two
dice which allow them to go thatmany spaces as long as they're
(18:39):
not blocked by a player who hastwo or more checkers in that
space.
If a player leaves one checkerin any of those spaces or moves
a checker and it's left solitary, there's an opportunity for the
other player to potentiallyroll that exact amount that that
space is on and knock thatperson off and give them the
(19:00):
opportunity to start their raceover again.
And strategically this is greatbecause the more that you can
send a player back in the raceas you advance forward
statistically, you're going towin this game.
You're not able to startpulling checkers off the board
until they are brought into thelast six spaces of the race.
The last six spaces closest toyour home board.
It's considered the home boardand then you can start bearing
(19:24):
off checkers with the roles thatyou intend to roll.
The game is over when the playerwho has removed their last
checker from the board removesthat checker, and there are
rules that we'll get into laterabout depending on how far
behind somebody is.
You win more points if you'replaying multiple games, for how
(19:46):
behind that person is howdominant you were in your
performance, and that's whatleads me to think that these
warriors enjoyed this so muchbecause you could be so dominant
at this game potentially andthere's other games that do that
, though too right in cribbageyou can get skunked or double
right, I haven't playedcribbageribbage.
Is that a fun one?
Don (20:05):
How does Board Game Boy, not play Cribbage.
Doug (20:07):
Wow you said Board Game Boy so condescendingly.
Ron (20:12):
Audience at home you should have seen his eyes.
How did you know his AOL emailname Board Game Boy.
Doug (20:19):
Hey, anybody interested in a classic game of tables?
I'm playing the ancient version.
Ron (20:26):
Go play Cribbage board game , boy Table talk.
Doug (20:29):
I don't know that one yet.
Don (20:32):
But I think you're right.
There's like all of theseconfrontational games like chess
is an emulation of war right,Checkers is as well, and so the
fact that this board is set upwhere you are opposed to each
other and you're moving inopposite directions and there's
that battle element of landingon the individual checker to
kind of kick it back into thestart of the race.
(20:52):
And originally they weren'tcalled checkers Don, what were
they called?
They were called men.
Doug (20:59):
They're table men, I was really hoping you were saying
they were gammon.
Don (21:04):
Because the gammons have to go back.
That's it, that's it so, but?
But, like that's, so it seemsto be an emulation of some kind
of of human activity.
Right, because it's you've gotlittle little pieces that are
named after humans, and and it'sless warlike than chess because
there's not as much killing.
Right, and because, and becauseyou're not, when you land on
(21:26):
that individual checker, you'renot removing it from the game
like you do in chess.
Right, you're just starting thegame over.
Ron (21:31):
Yeah, and it's also mimicking less of a battlefield
Right and it's like presentation.
Don (21:36):
It's a kinder gentler war.
Ron (21:38):
Yeah, this is something I've always wondered, which is
like there are a lot of theselike ancient, like even
sometimes, our modern sports,right, football is supposed to
be a, you know, an emulation ofa battle, to some extent, right?
And I've always wondered likehow much is that true and how
much are we projecting that sortof image onto it?
(21:58):
And like chess very clearly,like all the pieces are sort of
themed or warlike theme right.
Don (22:04):
But I sometimes wonder like is checkers really clearly,
like all the?
Ron (22:04):
pieces are sort of themed or warlike theme.
Right, but yeah, but Isometimes wonder, like it's
checkers really like uh and andlike backgammon also like are we
saying this is a like a gamethat emulates violent human uh
competition or you know,interactions or is that just?
Is that just competition ingeneral right?
Doug (22:20):
right.
Um, it's interesting that yousaid don just said this is the
gentler version.
I'm going back to our jujitsuconversation being a gentler,
martial art.
But what is interesting aboutcombat in general is the thing
it's interesting because people,until you go like combat I'm
going to the first word Iassociate with that is violence
(22:40):
and for me, just training, somuch I position is the thing
that I think about.
It's like positioning iseverything in combat.
It's like optimal positioning.
I mean, like Ron, you and Iplay Warhammer a bit, don't we
yeah.
Ron (22:53):
Sport of Kings.
Doug (22:54):
Sport of.
Kings, absolutely For only themost prestigious of gentlemen.
Yeah, position is everything inthat game, I mean.
The optimal position is, I meanliterally how you score
objectives, is placing yourselfinto position and even over,
sometimes, the destruction ofthe other army yeah, but I'd say
that's an element of, like,maybe all board games right like
(23:16):
like any game that has a 3delement, right is about
positioning something to someextent.
Ron (23:25):
I'm struggling to think of a game that's like not right,
like there's an old game that myfamily liked called Sequence,
which is again about likeplacing pieces on a board and
like maybe you could extrapolatethat to some sort of war
metaphor, but like that.
One disguises it very well, ifthat was the case.
So I'm wondering like, anytimeyou are saying we're playing a
board game, it's going to takeplace on this predefined space.
(23:48):
It seems like positioning isjust sort of inherent to that
this is true.
Doug (23:52):
Yeah, I don't know if I necessarily can.
What about, like card games?
That's where I was thinking isis the board is what leads me to
think map position, and thenmovement, but you have a card
game called war.
Don (24:05):
yeah, man, it's great talk about strategy you want to play
warland war is so bad, it'sterrible.
Doug (24:14):
That's that is arguably the worst card game ever, if you
think about it, because it'sjust bored.
That's why it's a perfectmetaphor.
No one should engage in war.
Ron (24:22):
It is just attrition I wonder though ron like I, why
it's a perfect metaphor.
Yeah, no one should engage inwar.
It is just attrition.
Don (24:25):
I wonder, though, ron, like I mean, it's a, it's a an
existential question.
You're asking that.
I don't know if, if we wantedit to get this serious, but,
like the original, like gamingwas actual war.
Like it was, it was cavemantribe against caveman tribe, and
it wasn't like oh, let's board,let's you know, let's go right.
It was about survival and aboutgrowing the tribe and about
land acquisition, and, and itwasn't until later that we
(24:48):
figured out that hey, there's,there's peaceful ways we can
have combat, and and so it's.
Ron (24:55):
I think all competition is an emulation of game but you're
also making it sound like it'salso a channel by which we
funnel a sort of uh, primal urge, maybe, yeah yeah and yeah.
Don (25:08):
We need to get our fourth member the way it does talk
about backgammon like talk aboutprimal it's primal urge to play
backgammon in bed my wife and Ihave no more marital issues
because we work it all outthrough backgammon.
Doug (25:24):
That's why we play.
But yeah, I hadn't even thoughtthat we were going to go this
direction.
But I mean, you're right, it is.
It's strange to think aboutbecause, going back to this idea
, yeah, there's several cardgames Like I think of games
where you build your deck oryou're like if there's combat,
whatever the case, there are alot that are just acquire points
(25:47):
, you know, and before the otherperson, and so I'm actually
starting to think is there any?
Are there any games that arenot either beat the other person
through, you have more, or race, like I?
almost think that they almost.
Don (25:58):
I'm trying to think All the games that are fun have that
Like.
I'm sure there must be somelike you know, yeah, obscure
everyone gets a participationribbon cooperative game for
preschoolers, but I can't thinkof what it is wow, they're.
Ron (26:11):
Uh, yeah, it's the game of life.
Remember that one.
Doug (26:13):
Yeah, boring as hell, um, but also competitive, like did
you have the most money and themost best life?
Don (26:19):
right, yeah.
Yeah, there's a sort of likebragging right at the end, right
yeah um it's race.
Ron (26:24):
There's a whole genre of games that are trying to be less
competitive, right.
There's like an awareness ingame design right now that, like
competition can, for the peoplewho lose, creates a negative
play experience, right, and solike, why would I want to be bad
at a game for two hours?
and so the uh that you know,you're familiar doug with like
(26:45):
what's called a euro game, sure,like a school of game design
that comes out of europe.
That is kind of like hey, whatif we were all playing the same
game but none of us really likestabbed?
the other in the back or didlike an aggressive move to
another one.
So you're kind of just fourpeople stuck at a board playing
your own version of a game, andthese can be really rewarding,
uh, but I guess in a verydifferent way.
(27:06):
There's still a competition andthat one person will be the
winner.
Doug (27:09):
It's still a race, though, because yeah, for we're getting
real into the tangentials here.
But, um, yeah, like, if we're,if you're looking at a euro game
which they centralize, ifyou're, if you're like, what
does he even mean by this?
I think, like they centeraround not having combat.
That's a very that's thecommonality is, like they're
almost always you're not goingto backstab somebody or destroy
(27:32):
their pieces, you are simplytrying to build something
yourself, but then it becomes arace, and so we're back to it's
a race or it's combat, and, andI don't know, I didn't prepare
this for this podcast and nowI'm ready to do a second episode
as a follow-up.
Already, about your are allgames, races and combat, and
they might be, they might be, um, and what's interesting too
(27:53):
about it thematically is I wasthinking about this in the
context of race and um, I wasthinking of, uh, video games,
yeah, and it's interesting thatthe one type of video game I can
usually get anyone to play,it's like I will go to mario
kart every time.
That's like the most universalof well I can do a race and I
I've found that with backgammonit's a similar thing.
And when the second, I explainthat it's a race, people are
(28:16):
willing to engage.
Um, that, take that step downfrom well.
If we're not hurting each otheror I don't have to kill you at
the end of this game, it seemsto be what people are willing to
engage in.
Ron (28:25):
Yeah, maybe it's like a simplicity of objective, right?
Yeah, uh, how?
How few words can you use toexplain what you need to do?
You need to get to this pointfaster than that guy.
Yeah, you need to remove thesepieces faster than the other guy
faster than the other.
Doug (28:41):
Yeah so, because any game that doesn't involve that is an
activity, not a game it seems tobe, because I'm even thinking
about cooperative games, whichis like a fairly new concept, I
think, from what I know.
I'm trying to think if thereare any ancient examples of a
cooperative game that you playagainst the game itself.
(29:02):
Uh, I think this is a neweridea, and even that it's usually
a race against the game itself.
I think this is a newer idea,and even that it's usually a
race against the board hascertain objectives through,
usually a card deck that you'reburning through, and if you
don't beat it in time or beatthe waves of enemies, whatever
it is, it still kind of followsthat same thing.
Don (29:17):
It's like Jumanji You're playing against the board,
that's right.
Doug (29:21):
And then you have to scream Jumanji when you win
board, that's right.
Don (29:26):
And then you have to scream jumanji when you win, and
depending on your age, part ofit.
Don't say it three times, ormichael keaton shows up.
Doug (29:30):
No, now it's the rock, I was gonna say, depending on your
age it's either robin williamsor it's dwayne the rock johnson,
and hopefully it's robinwilliams um sorry, dwayne.
Don (29:41):
Um, all right, so back to your point.
So we were talking about romans.
Ron (29:45):
Yeah, playing but you said, when the romans leave, the game
leaves too.
Doug (29:50):
Uh, yeah, so it's tables begins to fail away.
Um, and it my book.
So, looking at, it's all a game.
Here, donovan writes.
The former subjects of theromans simply failed to embrace
the game with the same vigor astheir departed masters, and I
think what's interesting is ifthe legionnaires are the ones
playing the game mostly.
Um, I'm wondering if thesoldiers and the fact that
(30:13):
they're traveling and it's likehere's something to do, here's a
way to kind of blow off thesteam of.
We may be in battle any day orwe're holding back, you know,
we're holding back the physicals.
Uh, whatever the case is,they're kind of looking at uh, I
hope that I have my arrowsright oh, there's a goths.
Ron (30:29):
Yeah, that's a roman shit.
I just I got worried for asecond I got worried for a
second.
Doug (30:33):
I went wait, is it the pigs?
So, and speaking of that, somoving to the crusades, if, if,
can we move to the crusades?
Ron (30:45):
I'd love to, yeah, so uh, thank you.
Doug (30:48):
Um, christian soldiers during the crusades are playing
it so much.
During the third crusade,england's richard I and king
philip of france issued a jointdecree that banned anyone under
the rank of knight from playinggames for money and cap the sums
that nights and clergymen couldbet those who disobeyed face
being whipped naked through thearmy for three days.
(31:10):
And I found this interestingbecause one they didn't outright
ban it from certain groups,which means I I'm curious how
y'all take this, but like Ialmost imagine it was so popular
.
That's like we can't get themto stop, but we can whip them
naked.
It's just such a funny.
(31:32):
I like I laughed so hard when Iread that initially of like
well, the knights aren't gonnastop, so we gotta do something
for them but people below therank of night we're not allowed
to play they're done, they'redone so it's because because of
labor, yeah that's what I guess.
This is becoming so addictive.
Ron (31:47):
It's the the tamagotchi of its time and it's a very common
medieval sort of law right,which is like if you're not a
knight, you can't do anythingyeah, yeah, like it's a, it's a
time period in a culture that'svery invested in class
distinctions.
Right, yeah, some classes haveto be very cool and others have
to suck.
That's right.
Doug (32:07):
Yeah, and this is, and I'm building this idea, but it's
thematically.
Something that we need to lookat is is backgammon an
aristocratic game?
Because that might be the casetoo and we'll get into that.
So Crusaders bring the gamehome with them, reviving this
European interest in this.
So royalty and aristocracy topeople of no rank at inns are
(32:31):
providing customers with boardsand the game of tables becomes
common across Europe followingthe Crusades.
(33:06):
Um, we see this and um, I take apit stop here for Chaucer
mentioning it in the Canterburytables, um, talking, um about,
uh, dancers who played chess andtables at the time, this
gambling game as something thatneeds to be banned, and King
Louis IX moves to ban this inFrance in 1254.
But, for the most part, peopleare ignoring this disapproval
and it's interesting thatthere's.
Usually, it seems thatfollowing gambling, there's
always going to be a crackdownof like.
But you shouldn't be from here.
The Renaissance Europeans areplaying this as many.
There's about 25 versions thatare floating around at this time
(33:27):
that are broadly similar, withminor uh differences in scoring,
how you bet and what happens.
And sometime around the 1640s,um, the british invent the idea
that if you roll doubles, so ifyou roll a three and a three.
You don't just move three andthree, you double that amount.
So you get to move three, fourtimes in total.
Ron (33:48):
Seems like a very British idea.
Well sure, Doubling doubles.
If you happen to have a Navy,then you can take four times the
amount of the world.
Don (33:56):
Give me a little bit, I'll take it all.
Yeah, yeah.
Doug (34:01):
And they also add this idea of a scoring system that
you gain more points dependingon how far back the player is
when you win, which is wherethis new version that is
officially titled Backgammoncomes from.
Ron (34:16):
Can we talk about that for a second?
Sure, I don't know.
You mentioned that this is avariation of the game right
where you can add a new elementwhich is it's stop me if I'm
wrong, the more you are winning,the more you win.
Yep, why would I want to playthat version?
Um, unless I'm like it's like,unless I guess this is like.
Doug (34:37):
I'm a pro, like I would think, just raising the stakes.
Yeah, you and I go 10 bucks fora game.
Sure, now it's looking likeit's going to be 20 bucks for me
, 30 bucks for me.
Because I'm beating you thismuch, the stakes continue to
raise, especially if there'sgambling involved.
Ron (34:56):
I think that, yeah, I want to win.
Don (34:59):
More is always going to be a part of that, because the
mentality going into the gameisn't I'm going to lose more
because I'm going to suck somuch.
It's an opportunity to win morebecause of my luck and skill.
And I guess it's alsocorrective, right, because?
Ron (35:13):
this effect doesn't take place until the next game, right
?
So it's like if I lost that one, well, now I'm going to raise
the stakes so that I can winback what I lost in the next
match.
It's possible.
Doug (35:22):
Yeah, so the two ways, and this is getting ahead a bit.
But generally, if you're notplaying for money, people are
playing for a certain amount ofpoints, and so people are
looking at I made this manypoints in this game, or I made
up these many points as we'replaying, but a gambler yeah,
they would be like I just lostthree times the amount I
expected.
I'd love to play again so I cantry to win this back.
(35:44):
Yeah, okay, so gambling elementis going to play.
Don (35:47):
But it also changes the gameplay too, because this is
what happens in cribbage, and Iknow you know nothing about this
because you don't play anyworthwhile games.
Ron (35:53):
But sorry listeners, get on me and don's level doug and
learn cribbage okay, cribbers orwhatever you are called.
Don (36:05):
There's a psychological element to it as well, because
if I'm playing a game and I'mlike there's a moment in
backgammon where you realizeyou're probably not going to win
yeah, same thing as duringgarbage.
But if I'm losing in backgammonand I want to prevent getting
backgammoned, I can try to focusmy strategy on just moving my
back pieces forward, so that wayI don't lose as badly, even
(36:27):
though I'm going to lose.
Ron (36:28):
Correct, it opens up new objectives.
Yeah.
Doug (36:32):
And when we get to the 1920s and the roaring twenties.
When we get there, we're goingto talk about the doubling cube
as well, which basically adds a.
Would you like, like I, raiseyou element to this game, like
in the, similar to Texas, holdthem, which can end the game
immediately if somebody doesn'twant to take a double, and we'll
get into that.
Um, but yeah, this is calledbackgammon and uh.
(36:55):
The name is derived from thewords back and game, uh.
And in 1743, edmund hoyle, thefamous english chronicle, uh,
chronicler of card and boardgames, coded the rules that
largely endure today.
Have we seen the name Hoylebefore?
Don (37:12):
No, he's the guy that wrote the rules to cribbage.
Oh well.
Ron (37:16):
Hoyle's got his finger in every pot he really does.
Doug (37:19):
But yeah many a card deck that you'll find in the store
still has a name on it.
Ron (37:23):
Oh really, oh, absolutely, that's sick.
Doug (37:25):
Yeah, hoyle was way big yeah when it came to kind of
codifying a lot of the pub gamesthat you see and like the
classics, and I would argue it'dbe interesting to look into
hoyle's life.
I'm wondering if a lot of thereason that the games that we
play are what they are isbecause, like hoyle, kind of
compiled them in a sense um sortof a brother's grim of of board
(37:45):
games right, yeah it's alsohe's also the source of the
idiom to play.
Don (37:49):
according to Hoyle, it means to like, actually follow
the rules.
I was not aware of that idiomand I'm going to start using
that.
Yeah, play according to Hoyle.
Doug (37:58):
I like that a lot, but only Hoyle's games, or can I say
that about it?
Don (38:01):
You can say that about anything, but I mean, I just
want to make sure I have myidioms right, that's it yeah,
who do you think are some famousfolks going into our like past
the 1700s?
Doug (38:15):
who do you think are some famous folks?
Ben Franklin, Angelina Jolie.
Ron (38:20):
Angelina Bradgelina really, who's the dictionary guy Sam?
What's his name?
Don (38:28):
I get the impression that Ben Franklin is probably not
patient enough for backgammon.
Ron (38:33):
But he's like a dilettante.
Doug (38:35):
We're close, I would say Jefferson, yes, so Thomas
Jefferson, because he's going touse it in France to flirt.
I thought Ben Franklin wasflirting.
Don (38:46):
I thought, they were all flirting in France.
Doug (38:47):
I call him Frankie Flie flirt, but some people call him
the one with glasses.
Um, yeah, so thomas jefferson?
Uh, yeah, but he was.
He wrote about playing itduring breaks.
Uh, between writing thedeclaration of in independence.
Admirable, uh, admiral johnjervis, not quite as famous but
uh, of the british royal navy,complained that surgeons of the
(39:08):
horatio nelson's, of the HoratioNelson's fleet, wasted too much
time on the game.
Ron (39:13):
That's why he died.
He's out of there.
Doug (39:17):
And Jane Austen's Emma played it with her hypochondriac
father.
So, yeah, we see that again.
I find it interesting, right,because you've got these
different eras and again it'spopping back up and this brings
us we're skipping ahead a bit,but there's this more
(39:37):
contemporary time where itreally becomes popular in the
60s, 70s, kind of at its peak oftournament popularity in the
80s, and then followed bydecline, and there is a man who
is responsible for this namedalexis obolensky familiar with
that name yeah playing byobolensky it's a different type
(40:02):
of playing.
I'll tell you that because, um,our man, our man, did a lot for
for the game of batgammon uh atthe time, um, but he was a?
Um, he came from aristocraticstock.
He was born um in 1914,blue-butted family, respected
member of the czarist russianhigh society and descendants of
(40:24):
the rurik dynasty.
Um, I will be honest that Idon't know my russian dynasties
as much, but man does he soundimportant.
The important thing is he's,he's.
He comes from money um here,and this is going to get back
into our aristocratic like.
Is this a game for aristocrats?
Uh, russian revolution hits.
This brings uh communistbolsheviks to power and the
(40:44):
obolensky family flees thecountry.
They wind up in Istanbul.
And what game do you thinklittle Alexis is taught in that
country.
Ron (40:55):
Whatever backgammon in Russian is Cribbage, that's
right, absolutely.
Doug (41:00):
He was taught cribbage and I always knew what it was.
So you guys suck.
Yeah, he was taught backgammonby their, uh, Turkish gardener
and he developed his passion forthe game.
Um, they reloaded, theyrelocated to New York, um, he,
um, he was notorious for hiskind of playboy lifestyle, um,
(41:21):
notorious womanizer and drinker.
And uh, yeah, his favoritething to do was essentially set
up shop and teach peoplebackgammon.
Um, he, it's.
It's weird to think about thisbecause, like I like backgammon,
but it's like it seems like hislife's goal was he wanted to
make it a cultural phenomenonusing his influence and money.
(41:42):
And so he, he literally startstrying to establish himself with
celebrities in in new york andsurrounding by starting to throw
parties where you can gambleand play backgammon and, um, to
a certain degree, this is asuccess, um, as he's kind of jet
setting around, as he'sacquired more and he's doing
(42:03):
this hotel opens up in thebahamas in the 1950s and he
convinces them successfully, Ican bring wealthy people here to
play this game.
They will drink in your bars,they will occupy your rooms,
they will run up gigantic tabs.
As long as you let me play thisgame and I, I guess I'm shocked
by this because, again, Istarted this episode with this
(42:24):
as your grandma's game, but thisguy looked at it as this is the
.
You know, like this is the highlife, like this is this is what
grandma's game.
But this guy looked at it asthis is the.
You know, like this is the highlife, like this is this is what
you do If you're an absoluteballer.
Don (42:35):
My grandmother was a swinger in the fifties.
Like this would be right upthere, maybe playing the
backgammon and dipping thefondue all in the same Right.
That's a parlor game.
Doug (42:46):
Would we call it a parlor game?
Ron (42:49):
that's a parlor game.
Would we call it a parlor game?
I think we would.
I think because, you're right,there is like some games have a
mystique, uh, a connotation,yeah, of class and yes and and
like uh, cribbage is one, orlike bridge, right, like these
kinds of like older bridge hasan esoteric like there's a
secret knowledge, like youeither are a bridge player or
else it's just a mystery.
Don (43:09):
Yep, like it's a, and I think backgammon's a little bit
like.
I think it has that, thatmystique to it, but there's a
chink in that wall yeah, yeahright like it's.
It's a lot more accessible thanbridge.
Like, yeah, bridge is a has amuch more.
It's a longer initiation period, a harder learning curve.
Doug (43:26):
I think and uh, hold on to that idea.
You keep setting me up,gentlemen, it's as if you know,
and and for the we've gottenpretty good at this podcasting
thing it's freaking me out.
Um, we are going to come back tobridge players because, uh,
they, they are going to bementioned.
There's a wave of bridgeplayers who end up getting into
backgammon, but um throws thistournament.
(43:46):
I wanted to throw one of thehighlights, um of one of the
tournaments Um.
So, march 1964, he invites agaggle of counts, millionaires,
stockbrokers and socialites umto this um hotel in the Bahamas.
They begin to um play and thetournament, uh, as it is
(44:07):
described in the book, is asuned party lubricated by drinks
on the house and soundtrackedby the constant rattle of dice
shakers.
The final game saw New Yorkpublisher Porter Ijams up
against Charles Wacker III, amillionaire racehorse breeder
from Chicago who later became afugitive after the FBI accused
(44:29):
him of tax evasion worthmillions of dollars.
The stake was nearly 8,000,around 60,000 in today's money
and the silver Obolensky cup.
Wacker won the game and afterum, he and those who bet on his
success had collected theirwinnings, because a big part of
this, too, was you were bettingon who you thought would win.
So even those that are notparticipating are throwing money
(44:51):
around with side bets of.
I think whackers got it.
I have a 200, I'm a whacker guy.
Ron (44:56):
I'm kind of a whacker guy myself um, uh.
Doug (45:01):
So the backgammon glitterati wound down to the uh
black tie celebration thatfeatured games, played for even
greater stakes and concludedwith a swim at sunrise, and you
can imagine this right like it's1954.
I'm thinking of the show madmen right now like I'm just
imagining don draper's at thepool like I see you're playing
backgammon.
I advertised sets for faoschwartz for them once, um, but
(45:23):
this celebrity event leads intothe 60s to where you can look up
images and the person I'mthinking of is like, if you look
up either Mick Jagger you knowfrom the Rolling Stones playing
backgammon, or Hugh Hefner,there are just truthfully like,
hundreds of images like thisbecame the thing that people
(45:44):
were doing and as these partieskind of started to go into full
swing, the Playboy Mansion ishosting them.
It becomes a significant thingin the 60s.
That becomes a culturalstandpoint.
Sales of backgammon boardsbecome absolutely outrageous, to
the point that Abercrombie,fitch in their 1974, so it's
(46:05):
ahead a little bit, but by the70ies the 1974 edition catalog
for Abercrombie and Fitch has afull page spread of just like 25
different sets that you can buywith different logos and
patterns.
People are doing luxury leathersets that you can buy and even
to this day I don't know if youknow, but you can go like Gucci
(46:26):
makes a set that is worththousands of dollars that has
their imprinting on the side Don.
Ron (46:33):
I think Doug is just trying to convince us he's cool for
playing backgammon.
Don (46:36):
He didn't bring the Gucci set over today.
Doug (46:38):
Well, gentlemen, you're misplaced here.
I'm actually asking for myChristmas present.
So, if you can get as manypeople to donate as possible.
Can you imagine owning thatLike, all right, we're going to
play on the $6,000 set?
Put If you can get as manypeople to donate as possible.
Can you imagine owning thatLike who?
All right, we're going to playon the $6,000 set.
Put the drinks away, like Imean, it's like you're playing
with gloves.
Oh, I just, I couldn't evenimagine it personally, I guess
that's not so uncommon, though.
Ron (47:00):
Right Like there is a certain degree to which uh board
games become art objects.
Right Like uh objects.
Right like uh I'm more familiarwith, like all the different
expensive chess sets you can buy.
Right like these ones are carvedout of crystal and stuff like
there is a yeah and, and thereis a sort of status that certain
games command that others don'tright like no one no one's
(47:20):
selling a that I'm aware of, acrystal, uh monopoly set right,
uh, you'd be wrong and maybe amonopoly is like past that
threshold, but I mean like canyou, can you get sorry made out
of obsidian or something?
Like I'm making it right nowdragging introducing sorry, or
parcheese.
Doug (47:39):
As don said, cribbage definitely there's got to be, I
would think, because as much asI don't know cribbage, I know
that that would track that it'son and cribbage does emulate.
It emulates horse racing,correct isn't the reason.
It is also a racing game yeah,I would imagine that they've got
some very deluxe sets.
I think the simplicity of itlends to it.
Ron (48:00):
But yeah, you're right, but also like uh, if I may invite
you to carry out a thoughtexperiment, I want you to
imagine in your mind ainternational chess tournament,
all right.
You and the audience now have apicture in your mind.
I do Okay and now erase thatimage and now replace it with an
international magic thegathering tournament.
Doug (48:20):
It smells different immediately.
Ron (48:22):
Right yeah, like you're picturing a different crowd,
you're picturing a differentlevel of opulence.
Probably Is one of those gamesmarginally better or more
difficult to play.
I would say they're fairlyequal.
I think Magic is also aconfusing and very tactically
(48:42):
difficult game to wrap your headaround and master.
But yeah, one of them is sortof the game of kings and the
other is the game of schlubs.
Doug (48:52):
The game of needing deodorant.
Don (48:53):
Yeah, that's right, but but part of that, I think, has to
do with the material that isrequired to play the game.
Like you can't upscale themagic of the gathering cards.
The cards are just the cards.
Like they don't.
They don't make the set.
That's made out of walnut.
You know that Right, it's justI don't know if that has
anything to do with it, but Imean like, yeah, I can't imagine
what a fancy magic thegathering gathering would be
(49:15):
like.
As opposed to yeah you can makechess.
Doug (49:18):
What a wonderful, grammatically correct sentence
well, and uh, we're obviouslyveering off into other territory
talking about magic, but thatis an interesting thing because
it is Magic.
The Gathering, the collectiblecard game, yeah, yeah, yeah,
there's something very consumerabout that game as well, which
is you gotta keep buying thecards to make the best deck
(49:40):
possible, whereas Backgammon wasonce drawn in the dirt and now
we take this set.
that is luxury, you can play itanywhere and I think part of the
allure.
You can take this set.
That is luxury, you can play itanywhere and I think part of
the allure and again, this goeswith it.
Obviously, what I'm describingright now is it becomes a fad in
the 60s and 70s as somethingthat is celebrity.
If you could see Mick Jaggerplaying, I mean, it's like
(50:00):
product placement right.
Like if they're playing iteverybody should be playing it,
but it's also not anyone'sproduct, correct?
That's what's interesting aboutthis to me is it's not
necessarily selling something.
It becomes you are a backgammonplayer, which suggests
something about you, and what Ifind interesting about this is
it's popped up in all of thesedifferent centuries as something
(50:23):
that we will go.
We went from Legionnairesplaying it to Mick Jagger's go
game in the back for you.
Don (50:29):
You know like, and it's like I.
Doug (50:30):
I'm just fascinated by this because you know, again,
there's also a famous image ofLucille ball, like with a
cigarette, like screaming, andlike looking across the room,
cause she was such a huge fan ofplaying it Tournaments are
named after her that it is funenough that the celebrity elites
are wanting to do this, causethey want to gamble, blossom
steam and do something that'sfun.
But it is kind of sexy enoughthat it's like I want to be a
(50:53):
part of that.
We should get a backgammon setfor the house and I think that's
why it's still around, at leastin the cultural contemporary,
is it's kind of an offshoot fromthis time and I'm trying to
trace this history like yeah,because I mean backgammon is,
but boil it down to its essenceand it's really not a very
(51:13):
exciting game.
Don (51:14):
No Like it's the same every time you play.
Ron (51:17):
Play chess.
Doug (51:18):
Yeah.
Don (51:19):
Like it's the same game over and over again, and
sometimes the numbers fall yourway and sometimes they don't,
and it's not like you know oh,that was the best game,
backgammon ever Like they allkind of have the same tone.
Yeah, right, and so when you'redescribing the history of the
Romans playing the game and thenlike when they start to wither,
that it's not really picked upby their servants, but if the
(51:40):
game doesn't go away, and why isthat?
And so I'm thinking right,there's a little bit of a sense
in some game history thataristocrats like strategy games
and Backgammon is definitely agame of strategy but lower
classes like Games of Luck thatyou don't have to know as much
(52:03):
and you don't have to haveeducation In Backgammon.
You don't even have to know howto read to play Backgammon, you
only have to know your numbersto play Backgammon, you only
have to know your numbers.
To play backgammon, you justcount the numbers on the die.
So it has, like this crossoverof it has access for the
aristocrats and interestinglevels of strategy, but also
access to lower classes that arelooking for entertainment that
(52:26):
is just based on luck arelooking for entertainment that
is just based on luck and what.
Doug (52:36):
This is kind of like the final piece of information that
is brought to us in this book.
But, um, bridge players whohave, and mathematicians, uh,
and there's crossover becauseit's very much statistical
analysis.
What ends up apparently likethe peak of backgammon gaming
was in 1984, 1985 tournaments inMonte Carlo.
You can still go on YouTube andlike see footage like hours
long of just how high class this, this is at the time and what
(53:01):
ends up killing it and andbringing this out is bridge
players and mathematicians fromcolleges invade these
tournaments because the moneybecomes so big, like we're
looking at half a million excuseme, half a million dollars at a
tournament.
These mathematicians invade andwhat happens is is they are
sitting on turns after a rolefor sometimes up to a half hour.
(53:22):
Like they will sit there andanalyze every permutation of
everything that they can dobefore they make a decision and
they do not.
It's just killing the, the ideaof this fund that is associated
there.
Um, and so there's a steadydecline that happens after that
and backgammon kind of starts tofade into obscurity again
(53:43):
because the the over analystskind of take over the fun
element that you're talkingabout right there.
Math ruins everything.
It does seem to it really does.
Um, it's important forbudgeting and uh, but that seems
to be.
You know um it and budgetsaren't fun.
Just to in case our listenersdidn't know, um, so I think you
might be right there.
(54:04):
If once that magic is taken awayand now it's just simple
statistical analysis of I have a32 chance, the next game that
pops up as being the mostpopular, especially amongst
gambling circles, is texashold'em.
And still to this day, texashold'em generally is the number
one gambling game, at least forpublic perception that exists.
(54:25):
And uh, yeah, backgammon kindof falls into decline.
And so Don you kind of hit onthis of what is the magic that
holds this thing that I again it.
It would be a fad if I couldattach it to a decade.
Even if I could attach it to ahundred years, I would still
consider it a fad.
But it's popped up so manytimes, from being a game that
(54:45):
you can inscribe in the dirt andwe find an ancient Mesopotamia,
so I mean, essentially it's asold as myth, right?
And now it's still here,popping up in different
variations, with a differentcolor, and then here I am, you
know, playing it with my wifebefore we go to bed.
It's fascinating to me that itwould show up in all of these
different ways.
Ron (55:06):
I guess there's like a certain this seems like the
things that survive for a verylong time have some sort of
fundamental distill in someeffective, simplistic, seemingly
simplistic way, like afundamental human fascination or
, uh, you know, like certainstories, right, you can, you can
take, uh, you know, these storytropes or uh arcs, uh reoccur
(55:29):
across all cultures right acrosstime because they distill some
sort of human question,fascination, obsession, into
story form and they just sort ofappeal to all people.
And I think, games people havealways played games, I think,
once they had the time to stopsurviving and play games because
, uh, our brains, I think, arevery like, oriented towards
(55:52):
problem solving, yep, and thenwe were talking about the
competition element.
You know the, I guess for me,competition just adds a stake,
it adds a reason to play right.
The reason is sometimes itapplies to her tickles, a
person's ego right or their uh aperson's ego right or their uh
sense of getting better atsomething right, an
accomplishment of some degree.
and so, yeah, it seems likebackgammon, like you said,
(56:13):
probably not the most fun gamethat's ever been made, but
simplistic enough that you canthe greatest game of all time
simplistic enough that you canplay it, like you said, anywhere
, right, uh has, uh, likethere's probably also something
that should be not overlooked,but like a kind of imperialist
history that has carried it todifferent reaches of the globe
(56:35):
right and it's kind of plantedthe seed in all these different
places.
Right, you mentioned the twobit like rome and britain people
that love this so of course itwound up everywhere, right yeah
um and so like there's that kindof sort of material element to
it.
How did it actually get there?
I'm sure there are more fungames in backgammon, but they
have been lost right, but it'sthat there's a democratic
(56:55):
element in it.
Don (56:56):
So the idea you're talking about the trope like, so what's
the trope of backgammon?
Right?
That that, as a as a lowerclass person, that would attract
me to this game.
Well, it's that I can win thegame yeah, yeah, yeah right yeah
, and you take any joe, blow offthe street and you put them up
against a regular chess player.
Doesn't have to be a championchess player, just a regular
chess player.
Like they're not going to winthat game, yeah.
(57:16):
But in backgammon you likeyou've mentioned earlier doug
like you can go up against themost famous, most successful
backgammon player and they willhave the bad day on the dice and
the game flips the other wayyeah, and what a heroic moment
and you can turn the tables onthem yeah look at him.
Doug (57:33):
Look at him and something it's interesting you brought up,
like the imperialist bent on it, and something that I
definitely should have mentionedearlier is area that it is most
popular and still today, likeiran, israel, like these areas
that like centered around, likeprobably where the spread of
ancient Mesopotamia, like thethe game, is still most popular,
where it's it's ancient rootsare, and I find that also really
(57:57):
interesting too, that that'slike it's a cultural standpoint,
um, for them as well, and so it, yeah, it's just cause we
haven't brought them cribbageyet.
Good luck buddy.
Good luck Cause bad gam is whatit's at Teach the GIs cribbage.
Ron (58:14):
That's right yeah.
Doug (58:18):
The classic two play.
Yeah, Sitting across the table,two players just be able to
battle it out with a couple ofsmall pieces and a board shape.
It's just as simple as it is,as grandma's it might seem from
the beginning of this.
I'm just.
I find it fascinating that,yeah, you can bring anybody into
it and, uh, it creates thisdynamic that is universal to
life experience.
Don (58:39):
Yeah, Very cool.
Doug (58:42):
Thank you so much for letting me wax a bit on a
backgammon and hopefully thisstarts the revival.
I'm looking forward to seeingacross the world the next great
revival of backgammon andhopefully this starts the
revival.
I'm looking forward to seeingacross the world the next great
revival of backgammon uh, inhomes, pubs.
Don (58:56):
We need to start it.
It needs to be the uncannerybackgammon extravaganza in NASA.
Doug (59:02):
Look at with fondue and beehive hair, hair dues and
cigarettes on canna con Look outfor your customized Uncannery
backgammon set with all of ourfaces plastered on it in order
to continue to raise money fromthere.
But thank you, gentlemen, thankyou, doug, thank you.
Thank you, and just like that, another episode begins.
Welcome to the Uncannery.
I'm Doug, I'm Ron.
Don (00:38):
I'm Don.
Doug (00:40):
And we have much to discuss today about your
grandmother's favorite boardgame.
Ron (00:45):
Oh, perfect, I brought my notes.
Doug (00:50):
Handwritten.
Don (00:51):
I hope.
Doug (00:52):
Parcheesi.
Yeah, that's another goodselection.
Yeah, parcheesi is a good one.
One of the oldest actually Didwe know about the oldest board
games in the world?
Is it War the oldest?
Actually did we know about theoldest board games in the world?
Uh, is it war?
Talking about the 52 card deckof?
Ron (01:10):
your cards higher than mine .
Doug (01:12):
No, the geopolitical one of my favorite games, resulting
in the deaths of millions I'mgonna guess it's not chess.
Ron (01:20):
I feel like chess would frequently like if this is a who
wants to be a millionairequestion chess is on the board.
Don (01:25):
Right, I get it on the board.
Doug (01:29):
Regis somewhere right now is like he's won a million
dollars.
Yeah, yes, it would be thedistractor.
Don (01:36):
It's the one with the rocks and the little holes that you
count them.
Was it Mancala?
Is that what it's called?
Doug (01:41):
Oh yeah, contender, Contender, for sure.
Um yeah, there's somespeculation around this.
A lot of people will say it's agame called the royal game of
ur yes which I think was buriedin king tut's tomb, I believe in
like one of the sidecompartments.
Like he frequented this gameenough that it was buried with
him because he liked it so much.
Ron (02:02):
I was at the uh, the British museum once when we were
in London and they sell, uh, afacsimile copy of whichever
particular model of the Royalgame of her they have in display
there, and I was like, oh sick,I'm going to buy this and I'm
going to have a Royal game ofher all my own.
And it was too expensive.
Doug (02:19):
I was like, oh, that's a bit much well, you can be buried
with it someday yeah, I shouldhave told on the last episode
cannery yeah, we buried ron buryme with my game boy and my
coffee of pokemon red doug wasupset because pokemon blue is
(02:39):
the better one no, there's nosite there, in that one the fact
that you knew that, donald onlyplayed yellow.
Today we're going to talk aboutbackgammon.
Ron (02:52):
We're going to talk about backgammon.
Oh, this is the oldest one.
Oh, it's not, you misled us.
Doug (02:59):
Yeah, it's definitely old.
So backgammon we're going totrace all the way back to the
ancient Mesopotamian societies.
We see that if we're familiarat all, if we're not familiar,
let's get into it.
We've got a 24-point boardwhere these triangular shapes
are drawn and we use 15 checkersfor each team that are racing
(03:21):
around this board to get to theother side and be um bared off
the board, um, and the firstperson to be able to do that
wins.
And the reason I bring that upis if you think about um
simplest kind of forms of gamesthat you can create, um, the
thing that I find fascinating islike earliest inscriptions of
(03:42):
this um finder, like carved intothings, so not quite like
fossilized, but we see that thisis carved into a lot of places.
If you think about it like youcan go, you can make this in the
dirt technically, you knowyou'll be able to pull 15 of one
type of object, 15 of another.
Some of the earliest pairs ofdice that are carved into bones
are are surrounding this game.
But yeah, this goes way back.
(04:03):
We don't know if Batgammon'sthe one.
We do know it is older thanchess, though we do know that
it's older than chess.
Ron (04:12):
Do we know how old chess is ?
Do you have that information?
Doug (04:15):
I was just going to say.
Ron (04:16):
unfortunately I didn't do my chess research, but I'm
pretty sure Don has this in hisbrain.
Don, can you think real fast Ifyou had to make a guess, when
was chess made?
Sixth century, okay, awesome.
Thank you, don.
Doug (04:30):
You're welcome.
Ron (04:31):
See ya.
Doug (04:33):
This has been another episode of the uncannery.
Thanks for tuning in.
Don (04:35):
Can you tell me about backgammon?
My job is done, yeah.
Doug (04:39):
That's fun.
So, yeah, it's a much earlier,yeah, much earlier.
Yeah, bc.
And for obviously, startingleading with it's your grandma's
favorite game is probably notthe most exciting way to bring
this in, but the reason thatthis is significant is I was not
(05:00):
expecting to ever do a podcast,let alone talk about with
anyone for an extended period oftime, the game of backgammon,
cause it's embarrassing, yeah,it's.
It's beyond embarrassing.
It's my back tattoo.
That's a backgammon board,which the double pun of it being
on my back um really backellipsis gammon, and I put
(05:23):
actually bro just to
Don (05:24):
bring it into the modern context.
So by calling it mygrandmother's favorite game.
Is that supposed to be apejorative, or is that a?
Doug (05:32):
compliment.
I consider it a compliment nowbecause I think, because my
grandma was so cool.
Don (05:38):
Yeah, yeah, love your grandma, Haven't met her but I
love.
Doug (05:44):
I'm just going to send that love out.
Ron (05:45):
Yeah, yeah, my love's going wherever it needs to get
Careful.
Doug (05:50):
Uh, yeah, uh, looking at at backgammon, I never expected.
Uh, it would necessarily be atopic that I would even bring to
us, let alone a conversationthat lasts more than five
minutes.
But um, neither did we, yeahthat lasts more than five
minutes, but um neither did we?
Don (06:08):
Yeah, here we are.
This is minute six already.
Doug (06:10):
We're a thief, um, but I was shocked how enamored I was
with it, um, because we wererecently.
My wife and I were recentlygifted a set which led to us
buying a smaller magnetic setthat we've been playing before
we go to bed and, uh, juststrategically, tactically, uh
just kind of getting obsessedwith it and realizing like
(06:31):
there's a lot more to this thanI thought that there was.
Um, we uh for for our listeners, um, within the time, I uh have
forced both of these gentlemeninto a game of backgammon
recently.
Yes, will you share yourexperiences playing the game I
lost?
Don (06:49):
Yeah, I did too.
Doug must cheat.
Yeah, I think Doug was justlike.
Ron (06:53):
I just really need this today.
Guys, can you play this gamethat I'm not telling you the
strategies, for no, it was a fungame, I think.
Don (07:01):
And it was the first game you'd ever played.
It was the first game you'dever played.
It was the first game I'd everplayed.
Have you played it before?
I've played it before, notobsessively like Doug,
apparently, but I have played itbefore.
Ron (07:09):
It was a game I always saw.
I remember there would alwaysbe old people at family
gatherings, it's usually elderpeople playing backgammon in the
back.
I would sort of watch and belike, okay, there's something
happening here.
Don (07:26):
It was always cryptic, though, because, like there's no
markings on the pieces.
There's no directional arrows,there's no like.
It's not like Monopoly, wherethere's literally arrows and
icons and things to tell youwhat's going on.
Ron (07:46):
It's just a board of mystery yeah, like it.
Doug (07:47):
Like the spaces aren't like squares, which is like how
most modern board gamesdelineate that you are moving
across the board, yeah, yeah,and it's actually in some ways
kind of counterintuitive becauseyou're one of you is moving
clockwise, the othercounterclockwise um around the
board, which that can be kind ofillusory for people at first of
I'm going which way now, and so, even though it's usually a
pretty simple explanation in thebeginning, there's usually a
(08:07):
few hiccups along the way ifit's not something that you're,
you know, kind of a natural ator have played a few times.
But to me it comes across verymuch.
It's very sport-like in thatyou're looking at, you know,
kind of simple set of rules,easy to get into, hard to master
, um, where it's like, you know,mechanically, here's your field
, here's your players, here'swhat you're looking to do, and
(08:30):
within that realm a lot of thestrategy and tactics reveal
themselves as multiple playscome in Um.
But the fascination that I haveis that it's at its most basic
if I were to describe it as agame that's driven by dice.
So you will have this elementof random chance of that.
You're going to need to rolldice.
There are going to be a certainamount of spaces that you can
(08:51):
move.
Sometimes you can't move them,depending if a person's blocking
you, and so you need to makedecisions that are very tactical
, based on where these dice land.
But then there's an overallstrategy of how to position
yourself, and I think that thisis a very common theme that I
see in, like very classic gamesand sports, is positioning is
very important and I I so.
(09:12):
I think somewhere along thelines I realized there was a lot
more to it, but I just lovethat there was that little bit
of luck that, even though I canresearch the heck out of
different tactics or you can goon YouTube and you can find
there's a, there's a websitecalled backgammon galaxy.
Uh, that does like a a analysis.
Sick brother, it sounds reallycool.
(09:35):
You got a lot of friends.
Ron (09:38):
I know exactly what that website looks like.
Doug (09:42):
It's on geocitiescom, have an update.
It says no, to be fair, they'repretty modern, they're.
They're still running the bigtournaments, uh, that are around
, um, but yeah, there's, there'senough that people are doing
statistical analysis of gamesthat you can look at old games
and kind of go through in thesame way that you would with
chess, which I think most people, if you think of like
(10:04):
overanalyzed game, people aregoing to go to chess immediately
.
That would be my guess, right,but backgammon has a very
similar following and you mightthink that that's strange.
It's like, well, but you rolldice.
So there's always luck involvedand what's interesting to me is
, statistically we can see thatthe people who are consistently
the best, that maybe will play ahundred games, they'll win like
(10:24):
a majority of those games.
They will there just because ifthey're playing strategically
the best way within thestatistics of rolling, they'll
do really well.
But at a tournament, evensomebody who's been a winner
several times over because ofthe luck of those dice, you'll
get some people who justhappened to have a great game
and and we go from there andthat appeals to me.
Ron (10:45):
I like the fact that, uh, luck can swing your way, but you
also can play optimally excuseme, optimally yeah, there's like
, uh, that that random chanceelement is what makes it
accessible to everyone rightlike and also prevents it to a
to a degree, I take it frombeing completely figureoutable
(11:08):
right right, and I think thatthat's ultimately what makes
games not as fun like once itloses that magic.
Doug (11:16):
If there's something going on here, I wonder if I'm going
to win this one the second thatthat goes away.
I think that a lot of timesthat's what kills games and
that's going to be something wetalk about.
Is there is a?
I mean, yeah, I think if I wereto survey a group of people,
I'm wondering, like, what thesample size would be.
(11:37):
I think that, less thangenerally, it's not going to be
a very large portion of thepopulation that's played this
game regularly, if at all.
Generally, like, I find thatmost people that I've talked to
have not played backgammonbefore, but I've seen it.
Ron (11:51):
They're familiar with it, right?
Everyone's heard of it.
That was me I had never beenclose enough to play it or been
invited to play.
Don (11:57):
Why is it still a thing, then, if nobody plays?
Doug (11:59):
it that is what I'd like to talk about today is if we're
looking at this thing fromancient Mesopotamia that's shown
up, that we've got some looserecords of history and a lot of
this.
I'd like to shout out TristanDonovan, who wrote the book.
It's all a game.
I'm taking a majority, if notall, of my information from this
(12:19):
man today, who's done anamazing job of researching these
different games.
His book has been really fun toread, because I mean everything
from risk to the game of lifeto monopoly.
There's two different chapterson monopoly.
These games that kind of havebeen a part of our culture for
such a long time, where theycome from, where they're, where
they're headed, where they'vebeen.
(12:40):
He does a great job of lookingat the, the context of like,
where they fit in our world andhow kind of some of the untold
stories, and so what I'd like totalk about today is we've
discussed fads on this podcast.
The Uncannery has talked aboutfads, but when something Some
would say the Uncannery is a fad.
Ron (13:00):
Oh, hey, man, I'm just, I'm not me, Come on, brother, but
someone probably.
Doug (13:07):
To our listeners out there .
You know who you are.
You know this isn't a fad, allright.
This is a lifelong cult, ablood cult that we're all in.
Ron (13:15):
You're an uncannibal Once you get in, you can't get out,
or we eat you.
Doug (13:22):
But, yeah, I'm interested in this almost mythological
status that it's taken of.
It's popped up so many timesand it's become a sensation
again, a game, I said again.
In a way that is really strangeto me, because I agree to me,
(13:46):
because I agree it.
It's almost like why wouldn'tthis have died out by now,
because it's such a simple game,but it continues to kind of
show itself and so, um, ifyou'll allow me, we can start to
get into the history of it.
Shall we Sure?
I vote yes.
Okay, if you'd said no, thiswould have been a short podcast.
So I want to thank you.
I don't really have a choice I'munder contract our lawyers are
(14:08):
standing by, so call it um.
Let's go back to the romans,shall we?
The ancient romans, love theromans, okay they're fun yeah
why'd they have to inventdictatorship?
Don (14:20):
they play they play backgammon, but if you, you get
eaten by a lion.
Doug (14:26):
When you lose the game of Ludus.
Duodecim Scriptorum, you wereoften fed to lions.
Is not a fact, yes, this wasthe game of 12 lines which, as I
said in the beginning, what areyou talking about?
Don (14:41):
Wasn't there 24 points in this game.
Ron (14:49):
The Romans really had a knack for naming huh yeah, like
I've kick-started, somethinglike that before is your copy of
the game of 12 lines coming in.
Doug (14:54):
I just drew it on a piece of paper instead of spent 300 on
the kickstarter um, buteventually became tabula, the
latin word for bored, the originof all it's also a middle
eastern salad, yeah yes, it isand so we will be debating on
which one is better.
On the cannery uh, I'm goingwith backgammon here.
(15:17):
Um, I think the romans took iton, as with many cultural
activities that they did,because this game was played for
money.
The, the game was found, uh,boards were found carved into
courtyards of many villas.
In the ruins of pompeii therewere pieces of art, including
(15:39):
paintings depicting men playingit in a tavern before getting
into an argument and beingkicked out by an innkeeper.
Um caligula stood accused ofbeing a cheat in this game.
His successor, claudius, lovedthe game so much he wrote a book
about it and had a boardaffixed to his chariot so he
could play it while on the move.
And nero even reportedlygambled away enormous sums of
(15:59):
money playing the game, which Idon't think is a shocker to
anyone, considering nero'sincredibly compulsive habits,
like burning down his entirecity yeah, yeah he's gonna
gamble.
Uh, yeah, um, it fits, though,doesn't it like if there's gonna
be a game with like a simpleyou know fairly simple to get it
into, but you can win somemoney on it.
I think that it fits within thecontext of rome fairly well.
(16:21):
Um, the roman legions takeTabula to every corner of the
empire, including what is nowknown as Southern Germany,
france and the Netherlands, andit even made it to the empire's
Northern, most frontier, northof Britain, where the locals
took to calling it tables atthis time.
So we're still not into itbeing called backgammon yet.
(16:43):
That comes later.
But as legionnaires, um,retreated home, this game begins
to fade away.
And I think this is interestingbecause when, when we played
backgammon, did you feel like acertain sense of combativeness
in it?
Yeah, yeah, there's definitelyan aggressive element, right,
and and uh, for people whohaven't played, if you're, if
(17:05):
you ever leave a single checkeron a point, it leaves it exposed
that a person, if they roll theexact amount of spaces to land
on that checker, you have tostart that checker in the race
all over again from thebeginning, get it onto the board
and then race it around allover again.
And, yeah, I agree, it's verycombative, and so I.
So I don't know, hypothetically, do you think maybe there's a
(17:27):
connection here between thesewarriors and playing this game?
Don (17:32):
I do, I was gonna bring it up and and it was actually just
thinking maybe we shoulddescribe quickly how to play, in
case someone hasn't playedbefore it's a great point why
did I not think of this already?
Doug (17:42):
I think I got ahead of myself, didn't I?
Ron (17:44):
I let's just right now, let's speak all the characters
and link to a YouTube video thatwill teach them how Absolutely
Let me start with the ending.
Doug (17:53):
So, so, yeah, let me do my best with this, and then, yeah,
if I can get you to fill in,that would be great, great.
So, um, bad gamut is a gameplayed with 24 spaces, in which
both players can um, potentially, through the course of the game
, inhabit your setup on certainpoints and the spaces are those
(18:14):
triangular shaped things thatpeople have seen on boards.
Don (18:16):
Right, yes, called points.
Doug (18:18):
Yes, okay, yes um, as play starts, one player is moving
the other counterclockwisearound the board to try to get
their pieces all the way aroundthe board and off the board and
as they do that, they have torespond to rolling a set of two
dice which allow them to go thatmany spaces as long as they're
(18:39):
not blocked by a player who hastwo or more checkers in that
space.
If a player leaves one checkerin any of those spaces or moves
a checker and it's left solitary, there's an opportunity for the
other player to potentiallyroll that exact amount that that
space is on and knock thatperson off and give them the
(19:00):
opportunity to start their raceover again.
And strategically this is greatbecause the more that you can
send a player back in the raceas you advance forward
statistically, you're going towin this game.
You're not able to startpulling checkers off the board
until they are brought into thelast six spaces of the race.
The last six spaces closest toyour home board.
It's considered the home boardand then you can start bearing
(19:24):
off checkers with the roles thatyou intend to roll.
The game is over when the playerwho has removed their last
checker from the board removesthat checker, and there are
rules that we'll get into laterabout depending on how far
behind somebody is.
You win more points if you'replaying multiple games, for how
(19:46):
behind that person is howdominant you were in your
performance, and that's whatleads me to think that these
warriors enjoyed this so muchbecause you could be so dominant
at this game potentially andthere's other games that do that
, though too right in cribbageyou can get skunked or double
right, I haven't playedcribbageribbage.
Is that a fun one?
Don (20:05):
How does Board Game Boy, not play Cribbage.
Doug (20:07):
Wow you said Board Game Boy so condescendingly.
Ron (20:12):
Audience at home you should have seen his eyes.
How did you know his AOL emailname Board Game Boy.
Doug (20:19):
Hey, anybody interested in a classic game of tables?
I'm playing the ancient version.
Ron (20:26):
Go play Cribbage board game , boy Table talk.
Doug (20:29):
I don't know that one yet.
Don (20:32):
But I think you're right.
There's like all of theseconfrontational games like chess
is an emulation of war right,Checkers is as well, and so the
fact that this board is set upwhere you are opposed to each
other and you're moving inopposite directions and there's
that battle element of landingon the individual checker to
kind of kick it back into thestart of the race.
(20:52):
And originally they weren'tcalled checkers Don, what were
they called?
They were called men.
Doug (20:59):
They're table men, I was really hoping you were saying
they were gammon.
Don (21:04):
Because the gammons have to go back.
That's it, that's it so, but?
But, like that's, so it seemsto be an emulation of some kind
of of human activity.
Right, because it's you've gotlittle little pieces that are
named after humans, and and it'sless warlike than chess because
there's not as much killing.
Right, and because, and becauseyou're not, when you land on
(21:26):
that individual checker, you'renot removing it from the game
like you do in chess.
Right, you're just starting thegame over.
Ron (21:31):
Yeah, and it's also mimicking less of a battlefield
Right and it's like presentation.
Don (21:36):
It's a kinder gentler war.
Ron (21:38):
Yeah, this is something I've always wondered, which is
like there are a lot of theselike ancient, like even
sometimes, our modern sports,right, football is supposed to
be a, you know, an emulation ofa battle, to some extent, right?
And I've always wondered likehow much is that true and how
much are we projecting that sortof image onto it?
(21:58):
And like chess very clearly,like all the pieces are sort of
themed or warlike theme right.
Don (22:04):
But I sometimes wonder like is checkers really clearly,
like all the?
Ron (22:04):
pieces are sort of themed or warlike theme.
Right, but yeah, but Isometimes wonder, like it's
checkers really like uh and andlike backgammon also like are we
saying this is a like a gamethat emulates violent human uh
competition or you know,interactions or is that just?
Is that just competition ingeneral right?
Doug (22:20):
right.
Um, it's interesting that yousaid don just said this is the
gentler version.
I'm going back to our jujitsuconversation being a gentler,
martial art.
But what is interesting aboutcombat in general is the thing
it's interesting because people,until you go like combat I'm
going to the first word Iassociate with that is violence
(22:40):
and for me, just training, somuch I position is the thing
that I think about.
It's like positioning iseverything in combat.
It's like optimal positioning.
I mean, like Ron, you and Iplay Warhammer a bit, don't we
yeah.
Ron (22:53):
Sport of Kings.
Doug (22:54):
Sport of.
Kings, absolutely For only themost prestigious of gentlemen.
Yeah, position is everything inthat game, I mean.
The optimal position is, I meanliterally how you score
objectives, is placing yourselfinto position and even over,
sometimes, the destruction ofthe other army yeah, but I'd say
that's an element of, like,maybe all board games right like
(23:16):
like any game that has a 3delement, right is about
positioning something to someextent.
Ron (23:25):
I'm struggling to think of a game that's like not right,
like there's an old game that myfamily liked called Sequence,
which is again about likeplacing pieces on a board and
like maybe you could extrapolatethat to some sort of war
metaphor, but like that.
One disguises it very well, ifthat was the case.
So I'm wondering like, anytimeyou are saying we're playing a
board game, it's going to takeplace on this predefined space.
(23:48):
It seems like positioning isjust sort of inherent to that
this is true.
Doug (23:52):
Yeah, I don't know if I necessarily can.
What about, like card games?
That's where I was thinking isis the board is what leads me to
think map position, and thenmovement, but you have a card
game called war.
Don (24:05):
yeah, man, it's great talk about strategy you want to play
warland war is so bad, it'sterrible.
Doug (24:14):
That's that is arguably the worst card game ever, if you
think about it, because it'sjust bored.
That's why it's a perfectmetaphor.
No one should engage in war.
Ron (24:22):
It is just attrition I wonder though ron like I, why
it's a perfect metaphor.
Yeah, no one should engage inwar.
It is just attrition.
Don (24:25):
I wonder, though, ron, like I mean, it's a, it's a an
existential question.
You're asking that.
I don't know if, if we wantedit to get this serious, but,
like the original, like gamingwas actual war.
Like it was, it was cavemantribe against caveman tribe, and
it wasn't like oh, let's board,let's you know, let's go right.
It was about survival and aboutgrowing the tribe and about
land acquisition, and, and itwasn't until later that we
(24:48):
figured out that hey, there's,there's peaceful ways we can
have combat, and and so it's.
Ron (24:55):
I think all competition is an emulation of game but you're
also making it sound like it'salso a channel by which we
funnel a sort of uh, primal urge, maybe, yeah yeah and yeah.
Don (25:08):
We need to get our fourth member the way it does talk
about backgammon like talk aboutprimal it's primal urge to play
backgammon in bed my wife and Ihave no more marital issues
because we work it all outthrough backgammon.
Doug (25:24):
That's why we play.
But yeah, I hadn't even thoughtthat we were going to go this
direction.
But I mean, you're right, it is.
It's strange to think aboutbecause, going back to this idea
, yeah, there's several cardgames Like I think of games
where you build your deck oryou're like if there's combat,
whatever the case, there are alot that are just acquire points
(25:47):
, you know, and before the otherperson, and so I'm actually
starting to think is there any?
Are there any games that arenot either beat the other person
through, you have more, or race, like I?
almost think that they almost.
Don (25:58):
I'm trying to think All the games that are fun have that
Like.
I'm sure there must be somelike you know, yeah, obscure
everyone gets a participationribbon cooperative game for
preschoolers, but I can't thinkof what it is wow, they're.
Ron (26:11):
Uh, yeah, it's the game of life.
Remember that one.
Doug (26:13):
Yeah, boring as hell, um, but also competitive, like did
you have the most money and themost best life?
Don (26:19):
right, yeah.
Yeah, there's a sort of likebragging right at the end, right
yeah um it's race.
Ron (26:24):
There's a whole genre of games that are trying to be less
competitive, right.
There's like an awareness ingame design right now that, like
competition can, for the peoplewho lose, creates a negative
play experience, right, and solike, why would I want to be bad
at a game for two hours?
and so the uh that you know,you're familiar doug with like
(26:45):
what's called a euro game, sure,like a school of game design
that comes out of europe.
That is kind of like hey, whatif we were all playing the same
game but none of us really likestabbed?
the other in the back or didlike an aggressive move to
another one.
So you're kind of just fourpeople stuck at a board playing
your own version of a game, andthese can be really rewarding,
uh, but I guess in a verydifferent way.
(27:06):
There's still a competition andthat one person will be the
winner.
Doug (27:09):
It's still a race, though, because yeah, for we're getting
real into the tangentials here.
But, um, yeah, like, if we're,if you're looking at a euro game
which they centralize, ifyou're, if you're like, what
does he even mean by this?
I think, like they centeraround not having combat.
That's a very that's thecommonality is, like they're
almost always you're not goingto backstab somebody or destroy
(27:32):
their pieces, you are simplytrying to build something
yourself, but then it becomes arace, and so we're back to it's
a race or it's combat, and, andI don't know, I didn't prepare
this for this podcast and nowI'm ready to do a second episode
as a follow-up.
Already, about your are allgames, races and combat, and
they might be, they might be, um, and what's interesting too
(27:53):
about it thematically is I wasthinking about this in the
context of race and um, I wasthinking of, uh, video games,
yeah, and it's interesting thatthe one type of video game I can
usually get anyone to play,it's like I will go to mario
kart every time.
That's like the most universalof well I can do a race and I
I've found that with backgammonit's a similar thing.
And when the second, I explainthat it's a race, people are
(28:16):
willing to engage.
Um, that, take that step downfrom well.
If we're not hurting each otheror I don't have to kill you at
the end of this game, it seemsto be what people are willing to
engage in.
Ron (28:25):
Yeah, maybe it's like a simplicity of objective, right?
Yeah, uh, how?
How few words can you use toexplain what you need to do?
You need to get to this pointfaster than that guy.
Yeah, you need to remove thesepieces faster than the other guy
faster than the other.
Doug (28:41):
Yeah so, because any game that doesn't involve that is an
activity, not a game it seems tobe, because I'm even thinking
about cooperative games, whichis like a fairly new concept, I
think, from what I know.
I'm trying to think if thereare any ancient examples of a
cooperative game that you playagainst the game itself.
(29:02):
Uh, I think this is a neweridea, and even that it's usually
a race against the game itself.
I think this is a newer idea,and even that it's usually a
race against the board hascertain objectives through,
usually a card deck that you'reburning through, and if you
don't beat it in time or beatthe waves of enemies, whatever
it is, it still kind of followsthat same thing.
Don (29:17):
It's like Jumanji You're playing against the board,
that's right.
Doug (29:21):
And then you have to scream Jumanji when you win
board, that's right.
Don (29:26):
And then you have to scream jumanji when you win, and
depending on your age, part ofit.
Don't say it three times, ormichael keaton shows up.
Doug (29:30):
No, now it's the rock, I was gonna say, depending on your
age it's either robin williamsor it's dwayne the rock johnson,
and hopefully it's robinwilliams um sorry, dwayne.
Don (29:41):
Um, all right, so back to your point.
So we were talking about romans.
Ron (29:45):
Yeah, playing but you said, when the romans leave, the game
leaves too.
Doug (29:50):
Uh, yeah, so it's tables begins to fail away.
Um, and it my book.
So, looking at, it's all a game.
Here, donovan writes.
The former subjects of theromans simply failed to embrace
the game with the same vigor astheir departed masters, and I
think what's interesting is ifthe legionnaires are the ones
playing the game mostly.
Um, I'm wondering if thesoldiers and the fact that
(30:13):
they're traveling and it's likehere's something to do, here's a
way to kind of blow off thesteam of.
We may be in battle any day orwe're holding back, you know,
we're holding back the physicals.
Uh, whatever the case is,they're kind of looking at uh, I
hope that I have my arrowsright oh, there's a goths.
Ron (30:29):
Yeah, that's a roman shit.
I just I got worried for asecond I got worried for a
second.
Doug (30:33):
I went wait, is it the pigs?
So, and speaking of that, somoving to the crusades, if, if,
can we move to the crusades?
Ron (30:45):
I'd love to, yeah, so uh, thank you.
Doug (30:48):
Um, christian soldiers during the crusades are playing
it so much.
During the third crusade,england's richard I and king
philip of france issued a jointdecree that banned anyone under
the rank of knight from playinggames for money and cap the sums
that nights and clergymen couldbet those who disobeyed face
being whipped naked through thearmy for three days.
(31:10):
And I found this interestingbecause one they didn't outright
ban it from certain groups,which means I I'm curious how
y'all take this, but like Ialmost imagine it was so popular
.
That's like we can't get themto stop, but we can whip them
naked.
It's just such a funny.
(31:32):
I like I laughed so hard when Iread that initially of like
well, the knights aren't gonnastop, so we gotta do something
for them but people below therank of night we're not allowed
to play they're done, they'redone so it's because because of
labor, yeah that's what I guess.
This is becoming so addictive.
Ron (31:47):
It's the the tamagotchi of its time and it's a very common
medieval sort of law right,which is like if you're not a
knight, you can't do anythingyeah, yeah, like it's a, it's a
time period in a culture that'svery invested in class
distinctions.
Right, yeah, some classes haveto be very cool and others have
to suck.
That's right.
Doug (32:07):
Yeah, and this is, and I'm building this idea, but it's
thematically.
Something that we need to lookat is is backgammon an
aristocratic game?
Because that might be the casetoo and we'll get into that.
So Crusaders bring the gamehome with them, reviving this
European interest in this.
So royalty and aristocracy topeople of no rank at inns are
(32:31):
providing customers with boardsand the game of tables becomes
common across Europe followingthe Crusades.
(33:06):
Um, we see this and um, I take apit stop here for Chaucer
mentioning it in the Canterburytables, um, talking, um about,
uh, dancers who played chess andtables at the time, this
gambling game as something thatneeds to be banned, and King
Louis IX moves to ban this inFrance in 1254.
But, for the most part, peopleare ignoring this disapproval
and it's interesting thatthere's.
Usually, it seems thatfollowing gambling, there's
always going to be a crackdownof like.
But you shouldn't be from here.
The Renaissance Europeans areplaying this as many.
There's about 25 versions thatare floating around at this time
(33:27):
that are broadly similar, withminor uh differences in scoring,
how you bet and what happens.
And sometime around the 1640s,um, the british invent the idea
that if you roll doubles, so ifyou roll a three and a three.
You don't just move three andthree, you double that amount.
So you get to move three, fourtimes in total.
Ron (33:48):
Seems like a very British idea.
Well sure, Doubling doubles.
If you happen to have a Navy,then you can take four times the
amount of the world.
Don (33:56):
Give me a little bit, I'll take it all.
Yeah, yeah.
Doug (34:01):
And they also add this idea of a scoring system that
you gain more points dependingon how far back the player is
when you win, which is wherethis new version that is
officially titled Backgammoncomes from.
Ron (34:16):
Can we talk about that for a second?
Sure, I don't know.
You mentioned that this is avariation of the game right
where you can add a new elementwhich is it's stop me if I'm
wrong, the more you are winning,the more you win.
Yep, why would I want to playthat version?
Um, unless I'm like it's like,unless I guess this is like.
Doug (34:37):
I'm a pro, like I would think, just raising the stakes.
Yeah, you and I go 10 bucks fora game.
Sure, now it's looking likeit's going to be 20 bucks for me
, 30 bucks for me.
Because I'm beating you thismuch, the stakes continue to
raise, especially if there'sgambling involved.
Ron (34:56):
I think that, yeah, I want to win.
Don (34:59):
More is always going to be a part of that, because the
mentality going into the gameisn't I'm going to lose more
because I'm going to suck somuch.
It's an opportunity to win morebecause of my luck and skill.
And I guess it's alsocorrective, right, because?
Ron (35:13):
this effect doesn't take place until the next game, right
?
So it's like if I lost that one, well, now I'm going to raise
the stakes so that I can winback what I lost in the next
match.
It's possible.
Doug (35:22):
Yeah, so the two ways, and this is getting ahead a bit.
But generally, if you're notplaying for money, people are
playing for a certain amount ofpoints, and so people are
looking at I made this manypoints in this game, or I made
up these many points as we'replaying, but a gambler yeah,
they would be like I just lostthree times the amount I
expected.
I'd love to play again so I cantry to win this back.
(35:44):
Yeah, okay, so gambling elementis going to play.
Don (35:47):
But it also changes the gameplay too, because this is
what happens in cribbage, and Iknow you know nothing about this
because you don't play anyworthwhile games.
Ron (35:53):
But sorry listeners, get on me and don's level doug and
learn cribbage okay, cribbers orwhatever you are called.
Don (36:05):
There's a psychological element to it as well, because
if I'm playing a game and I'mlike there's a moment in
backgammon where you realizeyou're probably not going to win
yeah, same thing as duringgarbage.
But if I'm losing in backgammonand I want to prevent getting
backgammoned, I can try to focusmy strategy on just moving my
back pieces forward, so that wayI don't lose as badly, even
(36:27):
though I'm going to lose.
Ron (36:28):
Correct, it opens up new objectives.
Yeah.
Doug (36:32):
And when we get to the 1920s and the roaring twenties.
When we get there, we're goingto talk about the doubling cube
as well, which basically adds a.
Would you like, like I, raiseyou element to this game, like
in the, similar to Texas, holdthem, which can end the game
immediately if somebody doesn'twant to take a double, and we'll
get into that.
Um, but yeah, this is calledbackgammon and uh.
(36:55):
The name is derived from thewords back and game, uh.
And in 1743, edmund hoyle, thefamous english chronicle, uh,
chronicler of card and boardgames, coded the rules that
largely endure today.
Have we seen the name Hoylebefore?
Don (37:12):
No, he's the guy that wrote the rules to cribbage.
Oh well.
Ron (37:16):
Hoyle's got his finger in every pot he really does.
Doug (37:19):
But yeah many a card deck that you'll find in the store
still has a name on it.
Ron (37:23):
Oh really, oh, absolutely, that's sick.
Doug (37:25):
Yeah, hoyle was way big yeah when it came to kind of
codifying a lot of the pub gamesthat you see and like the
classics, and I would argue it'dbe interesting to look into
hoyle's life.
I'm wondering if a lot of thereason that the games that we
play are what they are isbecause, like hoyle, kind of
compiled them in a sense um sortof a brother's grim of of board
(37:45):
games right, yeah it's alsohe's also the source of the
idiom to play.
Don (37:49):
according to Hoyle, it means to like, actually follow
the rules.
I was not aware of that idiomand I'm going to start using
that.
Yeah, play according to Hoyle.
Doug (37:58):
I like that a lot, but only Hoyle's games, or can I say
that about it?
Don (38:01):
You can say that about anything, but I mean, I just
want to make sure I have myidioms right, that's it yeah,
who do you think are some famousfolks going into our like past
the 1700s?
Doug (38:15):
who do you think are some famous folks?
Ben Franklin, Angelina Jolie.
Ron (38:20):
Angelina Bradgelina really, who's the dictionary guy Sam?
What's his name?
Don (38:28):
I get the impression that Ben Franklin is probably not
patient enough for backgammon.
Ron (38:33):
But he's like a dilettante.
Doug (38:35):
We're close, I would say Jefferson, yes, so Thomas
Jefferson, because he's going touse it in France to flirt.
I thought Ben Franklin wasflirting.
Don (38:46):
I thought, they were all flirting in France.
Doug (38:47):
I call him Frankie Flie flirt, but some people call him
the one with glasses.
Um, yeah, so thomas jefferson?
Uh, yeah, but he was.
He wrote about playing itduring breaks.
Uh, between writing thedeclaration of in independence.
Admirable, uh, admiral johnjervis, not quite as famous but
uh, of the british royal navy,complained that surgeons of the
(39:08):
horatio nelson's, of the HoratioNelson's fleet, wasted too much
time on the game.
Ron (39:13):
That's why he died.
He's out of there.
Doug (39:17):
And Jane Austen's Emma played it with her hypochondriac
father.
So, yeah, we see that again.
I find it interesting, right,because you've got these
different eras and again it'spopping back up and this brings
us we're skipping ahead a bit,but there's this more
(39:37):
contemporary time where itreally becomes popular in the
60s, 70s, kind of at its peak oftournament popularity in the
80s, and then followed bydecline, and there is a man who
is responsible for this namedalexis obolensky familiar with
that name yeah playing byobolensky it's a different type
(40:02):
of playing.
I'll tell you that because, um,our man, our man, did a lot for
for the game of batgammon uh atthe time, um, but he was a?
Um, he came from aristocraticstock.
He was born um in 1914,blue-butted family, respected
member of the czarist russianhigh society and descendants of
(40:24):
the rurik dynasty.
Um, I will be honest that Idon't know my russian dynasties
as much, but man does he soundimportant.
The important thing is he's,he's.
He comes from money um here,and this is going to get back
into our aristocratic like.
Is this a game for aristocrats?
Uh, russian revolution hits.
This brings uh communistbolsheviks to power and the
(40:44):
obolensky family flees thecountry.
They wind up in Istanbul.
And what game do you thinklittle Alexis is taught in that
country.
Ron (40:55):
Whatever backgammon in Russian is Cribbage, that's
right, absolutely.
Doug (41:00):
He was taught cribbage and I always knew what it was.
So you guys suck.
Yeah, he was taught backgammonby their, uh, Turkish gardener
and he developed his passion forthe game.
Um, they reloaded, theyrelocated to New York, um, he,
um, he was notorious for hiskind of playboy lifestyle, um,
(41:21):
notorious womanizer and drinker.
And uh, yeah, his favoritething to do was essentially set
up shop and teach peoplebackgammon.
Um, he, it's.
It's weird to think about thisbecause, like I like backgammon,
but it's like it seems like hislife's goal was he wanted to
make it a cultural phenomenonusing his influence and money.
(41:42):
And so he, he literally startstrying to establish himself with
celebrities in in new york andsurrounding by starting to throw
parties where you can gambleand play backgammon and, um, to
a certain degree, this is asuccess, um, as he's kind of jet
setting around, as he'sacquired more and he's doing
(42:03):
this hotel opens up in thebahamas in the 1950s and he
convinces them successfully, Ican bring wealthy people here to
play this game.
They will drink in your bars,they will occupy your rooms,
they will run up gigantic tabs.
As long as you let me play thisgame and I, I guess I'm shocked
by this because, again, Istarted this episode with this
(42:24):
as your grandma's game, but thisguy looked at it as this is the
.
You know, like this is the highlife, like this is this is what
grandma's game.
But this guy looked at it asthis is the.
You know, like this is the highlife, like this is this is what
you do If you're an absoluteballer.
Don (42:35):
My grandmother was a swinger in the fifties.
Like this would be right upthere, maybe playing the
backgammon and dipping thefondue all in the same Right.
That's a parlor game.
Doug (42:46):
Would we call it a parlor game?
Ron (42:49):
that's a parlor game.
Would we call it a parlor game?
I think we would.
I think because, you're right,there is like some games have a
mystique, uh, a connotation,yeah, of class and yes and and
like uh, cribbage is one, orlike bridge, right, like these
kinds of like older bridge hasan esoteric like there's a
secret knowledge, like youeither are a bridge player or
else it's just a mystery.
Don (43:09):
Yep, like it's a, and I think backgammon's a little bit
like.
I think it has that, thatmystique to it, but there's a
chink in that wall yeah, yeahright like it's.
It's a lot more accessible thanbridge.
Like, yeah, bridge is a has amuch more.
It's a longer initiation period, a harder learning curve.
Doug (43:26):
I think and uh, hold on to that idea.
You keep setting me up,gentlemen, it's as if you know,
and and for the we've gottenpretty good at this podcasting
thing it's freaking me out.
Um, we are going to come back tobridge players because, uh,
they, they are going to bementioned.
There's a wave of bridgeplayers who end up getting into
backgammon, but um throws thistournament.
(43:46):
I wanted to throw one of thehighlights, um of one of the
tournaments Um.
So, march 1964, he invites agaggle of counts, millionaires,
stockbrokers and socialites umto this um hotel in the Bahamas.
They begin to um play and thetournament, uh, as it is
(44:07):
described in the book, is asuned party lubricated by drinks
on the house and soundtrackedby the constant rattle of dice
shakers.
The final game saw New Yorkpublisher Porter Ijams up
against Charles Wacker III, amillionaire racehorse breeder
from Chicago who later became afugitive after the FBI accused
(44:29):
him of tax evasion worthmillions of dollars.
The stake was nearly 8,000,around 60,000 in today's money
and the silver Obolensky cup.
Wacker won the game and afterum, he and those who bet on his
success had collected theirwinnings, because a big part of
this, too, was you were bettingon who you thought would win.
So even those that are notparticipating are throwing money
(44:51):
around with side bets of.
I think whackers got it.
I have a 200, I'm a whacker guy.
Ron (44:56):
I'm kind of a whacker guy myself um, uh.
Doug (45:01):
So the backgammon glitterati wound down to the uh
black tie celebration thatfeatured games, played for even
greater stakes and concludedwith a swim at sunrise, and you
can imagine this right like it's1954.
I'm thinking of the show madmen right now like I'm just
imagining don draper's at thepool like I see you're playing
backgammon.
I advertised sets for faoschwartz for them once, um, but
(45:23):
this celebrity event leads intothe 60s to where you can look up
images and the person I'mthinking of is like, if you look
up either Mick Jagger you knowfrom the Rolling Stones playing
backgammon, or Hugh Hefner,there are just truthfully like,
hundreds of images like thisbecame the thing that people
(45:44):
were doing and as these partieskind of started to go into full
swing, the Playboy Mansion ishosting them.
It becomes a significant thingin the 60s.
That becomes a culturalstandpoint.
Sales of backgammon boardsbecome absolutely outrageous, to
the point that Abercrombie,fitch in their 1974, so it's
(46:05):
ahead a little bit, but by the70ies the 1974 edition catalog
for Abercrombie and Fitch has afull page spread of just like 25
different sets that you can buywith different logos and
patterns.
People are doing luxury leathersets that you can buy and even
to this day I don't know if youknow, but you can go like Gucci
(46:26):
makes a set that is worththousands of dollars that has
their imprinting on the side Don.
Ron (46:33):
I think Doug is just trying to convince us he's cool for
playing backgammon.
Don (46:36):
He didn't bring the Gucci set over today.
Doug (46:38):
Well, gentlemen, you're misplaced here.
I'm actually asking for myChristmas present.
So, if you can get as manypeople to donate as possible.
Can you imagine owning thatLike, all right, we're going to
play on the $6,000 set?
Put If you can get as manypeople to donate as possible.
Can you imagine owning thatLike who?
All right, we're going to playon the $6,000 set.
Put the drinks away, like Imean, it's like you're playing
with gloves.
Oh, I just, I couldn't evenimagine it personally, I guess
that's not so uncommon, though.
Ron (47:00):
Right Like there is a certain degree to which uh board
games become art objects.
Right Like uh objects.
Right like uh I'm more familiarwith, like all the different
expensive chess sets you can buy.
Right like these ones are carvedout of crystal and stuff like
there is a yeah and, and thereis a sort of status that certain
games command that others don'tright like no one no one's
(47:20):
selling a that I'm aware of, acrystal, uh monopoly set right,
uh, you'd be wrong and maybe amonopoly is like past that
threshold, but I mean like canyou, can you get sorry made out
of obsidian or something?
Like I'm making it right nowdragging introducing sorry, or
parcheese.
Doug (47:39):
As don said, cribbage definitely there's got to be, I
would think, because as much asI don't know cribbage, I know
that that would track that it'son and cribbage does emulate.
It emulates horse racing,correct isn't the reason.
It is also a racing game yeah,I would imagine that they've got
some very deluxe sets.
I think the simplicity of itlends to it.
Ron (48:00):
But yeah, you're right, but also like uh, if I may invite
you to carry out a thoughtexperiment, I want you to
imagine in your mind ainternational chess tournament,
all right.
You and the audience now have apicture in your mind.
I do Okay and now erase thatimage and now replace it with an
international magic thegathering tournament.
Doug (48:20):
It smells different immediately.
Ron (48:22):
Right yeah, like you're picturing a different crowd,
you're picturing a differentlevel of opulence.
Probably Is one of those gamesmarginally better or more
difficult to play.
I would say they're fairlyequal.
I think Magic is also aconfusing and very tactically
(48:42):
difficult game to wrap your headaround and master.
But yeah, one of them is sortof the game of kings and the
other is the game of schlubs.
Doug (48:52):
The game of needing deodorant.
Don (48:53):
Yeah, that's right, but but part of that, I think, has to
do with the material that isrequired to play the game.
Like you can't upscale themagic of the gathering cards.
The cards are just the cards.
Like they don't.
They don't make the set.
That's made out of walnut.
You know that Right, it's justI don't know if that has
anything to do with it, but Imean like, yeah, I can't imagine
what a fancy magic thegathering gathering would be
(49:15):
like.
As opposed to yeah you can makechess.
Doug (49:18):
What a wonderful, grammatically correct sentence
well, and uh, we're obviouslyveering off into other territory
talking about magic, but thatis an interesting thing because
it is Magic.
The Gathering, the collectiblecard game, yeah, yeah, yeah,
there's something very consumerabout that game as well, which
is you gotta keep buying thecards to make the best deck
(49:40):
possible, whereas Backgammon wasonce drawn in the dirt and now
we take this set.
that is luxury, you can play itanywhere and I think part of the
allure.
You can take this set.
That is luxury, you can play itanywhere and I think part of
the allure and again, this goeswith it.
Obviously, what I'm describingright now is it becomes a fad in
the 60s and 70s as somethingthat is celebrity.
If you could see Mick Jaggerplaying, I mean, it's like
(50:00):
product placement right.
Like if they're playing iteverybody should be playing it,
but it's also not anyone'sproduct, correct?
That's what's interesting aboutthis to me is it's not
necessarily selling something.
It becomes you are a backgammonplayer, which suggests
something about you, and what Ifind interesting about this is
it's popped up in all of thesedifferent centuries as something
(50:23):
that we will go.
We went from Legionnairesplaying it to Mick Jagger's go
game in the back for you.
Don (50:29):
You know like, and it's like I.
Doug (50:30):
I'm just fascinated by this because you know, again,
there's also a famous image ofLucille ball, like with a
cigarette, like screaming, andlike looking across the room,
cause she was such a huge fan ofplaying it Tournaments are
named after her that it is funenough that the celebrity elites
are wanting to do this, causethey want to gamble, blossom
steam and do something that'sfun.
But it is kind of sexy enoughthat it's like I want to be a
(50:53):
part of that.
We should get a backgammon setfor the house and I think that's
why it's still around, at leastin the cultural contemporary,
is it's kind of an offshoot fromthis time and I'm trying to
trace this history like yeah,because I mean backgammon is,
but boil it down to its essenceand it's really not a very
(51:13):
exciting game.
Don (51:14):
No Like it's the same every time you play.
Ron (51:17):
Play chess.
Doug (51:18):
Yeah.
Don (51:19):
Like it's the same game over and over again, and
sometimes the numbers fall yourway and sometimes they don't,
and it's not like you know oh,that was the best game,
backgammon ever Like they allkind of have the same tone.
Yeah, right, and so when you'redescribing the history of the
Romans playing the game and thenlike when they start to wither,
that it's not really picked upby their servants, but if the
(51:40):
game doesn't go away, and why isthat?
And so I'm thinking right,there's a little bit of a sense
in some game history thataristocrats like strategy games
and Backgammon is definitely agame of strategy but lower
classes like Games of Luck thatyou don't have to know as much
(52:03):
and you don't have to haveeducation In Backgammon.
You don't even have to know howto read to play Backgammon, you
only have to know your numbersto play Backgammon, you only
have to know your numbers.
To play backgammon, you justcount the numbers on the die.
So it has, like this crossoverof it has access for the
aristocrats and interestinglevels of strategy, but also
access to lower classes that arelooking for entertainment that
(52:26):
is just based on luck arelooking for entertainment that
is just based on luck and what.
Doug (52:36):
This is kind of like the final piece of information that
is brought to us in this book.
But, um, bridge players whohave, and mathematicians, uh,
and there's crossover becauseit's very much statistical
analysis.
What ends up apparently likethe peak of backgammon gaming
was in 1984, 1985 tournaments inMonte Carlo.
You can still go on YouTube andlike see footage like hours
long of just how high class this, this is at the time and what
(53:01):
ends up killing it and andbringing this out is bridge
players and mathematicians fromcolleges invade these
tournaments because the moneybecomes so big, like we're
looking at half a million excuseme, half a million dollars at a
tournament.
These mathematicians invade andwhat happens is is they are
sitting on turns after a rolefor sometimes up to a half hour.
(53:22):
Like they will sit there andanalyze every permutation of
everything that they can dobefore they make a decision and
they do not.
It's just killing the, the ideaof this fund that is associated
there.
Um, and so there's a steadydecline that happens after that
and backgammon kind of starts tofade into obscurity again
(53:43):
because the the over analystskind of take over the fun
element that you're talkingabout right there.
Math ruins everything.
It does seem to it really does.
Um, it's important forbudgeting and uh, but that seems
to be.
You know um it and budgetsaren't fun.
Just to in case our listenersdidn't know, um, so I think you
might be right there.
(54:04):
If once that magic is taken awayand now it's just simple
statistical analysis of I have a32 chance, the next game that
pops up as being the mostpopular, especially amongst
gambling circles, is texashold'em.
And still to this day, texashold'em generally is the number
one gambling game, at least forpublic perception that exists.
(54:25):
And uh, yeah, backgammon kindof falls into decline.
And so Don you kind of hit onthis of what is the magic that
holds this thing that I again it.
It would be a fad if I couldattach it to a decade.
Even if I could attach it to ahundred years, I would still
consider it a fad.
But it's popped up so manytimes, from being a game that
(54:45):
you can inscribe in the dirt andwe find an ancient Mesopotamia,
so I mean, essentially it's asold as myth, right?
And now it's still here,popping up in different
variations, with a differentcolor, and then here I am, you
know, playing it with my wifebefore we go to bed.
It's fascinating to me that itwould show up in all of these
different ways.
Ron (55:06):
I guess there's like a certain this seems like the
things that survive for a verylong time have some sort of
fundamental distill in someeffective, simplistic, seemingly
simplistic way, like afundamental human fascination or
, uh, you know, like certainstories, right, you can, you can
take, uh, you know, these storytropes or uh arcs, uh reoccur
(55:29):
across all cultures right acrosstime because they distill some
sort of human question,fascination, obsession, into
story form and they just sort ofappeal to all people.
And I think, games people havealways played games, I think,
once they had the time to stopsurviving and play games because
, uh, our brains, I think, arevery like, oriented towards
(55:52):
problem solving, yep, and thenwe were talking about the
competition element.
You know the, I guess for me,competition just adds a stake,
it adds a reason to play right.
The reason is sometimes itapplies to her tickles, a
person's ego right or their uh aperson's ego right or their uh
sense of getting better atsomething right, an
accomplishment of some degree.
and so, yeah, it seems likebackgammon, like you said,
(56:13):
probably not the most fun gamethat's ever been made, but
simplistic enough that you canthe greatest game of all time
simplistic enough that you canplay it, like you said, anywhere
, right, uh has, uh, likethere's probably also something
that should be not overlooked,but like a kind of imperialist
history that has carried it todifferent reaches of the globe
(56:35):
right and it's kind of plantedthe seed in all these different
places.
Right, you mentioned the twobit like rome and britain people
that love this so of course itwound up everywhere, right yeah
um and so like there's that kindof sort of material element to
it.
How did it actually get there?
I'm sure there are more fungames in backgammon, but they
have been lost right, but it'sthat there's a democratic
(56:55):
element in it.
Don (56:56):
So the idea you're talking about the trope like, so what's
the trope of backgammon?
Right?
That that, as a as a lowerclass person, that would attract
me to this game.
Well, it's that I can win thegame yeah, yeah, yeah right yeah
, and you take any joe, blow offthe street and you put them up
against a regular chess player.
Doesn't have to be a championchess player, just a regular
chess player.
Like they're not going to winthat game, yeah.
(57:16):
But in backgammon you likeyou've mentioned earlier doug
like you can go up against themost famous, most successful
backgammon player and they willhave the bad day on the dice and
the game flips the other wayyeah, and what a heroic moment
and you can turn the tables onthem yeah look at him.
Doug (57:33):
Look at him and something it's interesting you brought up,
like the imperialist bent on it, and something that I
definitely should have mentionedearlier is area that it is most
popular and still today, likeiran, israel, like these areas
that like centered around, likeprobably where the spread of
ancient Mesopotamia, like thethe game, is still most popular,
where it's it's ancient rootsare, and I find that also really
(57:57):
interesting too, that that'slike it's a cultural standpoint,
um, for them as well, and so it, yeah, it's just cause we
haven't brought them cribbageyet.
Good luck buddy.
Good luck Cause bad gam is whatit's at Teach the GIs cribbage.
Ron (58:14):
That's right yeah.
Doug (58:18):
The classic two play.
Yeah, Sitting across the table,two players just be able to
battle it out with a couple ofsmall pieces and a board shape.
It's just as simple as it is,as grandma's it might seem from
the beginning of this.
I'm just.
I find it fascinating that,yeah, you can bring anybody into
it and, uh, it creates thisdynamic that is universal to
life experience.
Don (58:39):
Yeah, Very cool.
Doug (58:42):
Thank you so much for letting me wax a bit on a
backgammon and hopefully thisstarts the revival.
I'm looking forward to seeingacross the world the next great
revival of backgammon andhopefully this starts the
revival.
I'm looking forward to seeingacross the world the next great
revival of backgammon uh, inhomes, pubs.
Don (58:56):
We need to start it.
It needs to be the uncannerybackgammon extravaganza in NASA.
Doug (59:02):
Look at with fondue and beehive hair, hair dues and
cigarettes on canna con Look outfor your customized Uncannery
backgammon set with all of ourfaces plastered on it in order
to continue to raise money fromthere.
But thank you, gentlemen, thankyou, doug, thank you.
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