The Unstoppable Dance: Investigating the 1518 Plague

Send us a text

Feeling a bit skeptical about Doug's new obsession with pickleball? You're not alone! Join us as Ron humorously navigates Doug’s impassioned explanation of this fast-growing sport, and hear their playful banter on the ‘pickle glow’ phenomenon. Ever wondered if you could light up a room with pickles and potatoes? We explore that quirky idea amid Doug’s attempts to recruit everyone to the pickleball courts while Doug stays loyal to his jujitsu roots. The laughter and light-hearted jabs make this segment a must-listen for anyone curious about new hobbies or simply in need of a good chuckle.

Remember the crazes that took over our childhoods? We take you back to those days of Pokémon cards, TDch decks, and other fleeting but unforgettable fads. Doug and Ron share some hilarious and slightly mischievous tales from their younger years, offering a nostalgic trip that might remind you of your own adventures (or misadventures). From stealthily "borrowing" a friend's Charizard to hacking Game Boy games with a GameShark, these stories illustrate the lengths we'd go to be part of the latest trend. It's a walk down memory lane filled with laughter and a touch of nostalgia.

And if you think that’s intriguing, wait until you hear about the Dancing Plague of 1518! We unravel the mystery of this bizarre historical event, discussing theories from ergot poisoning to mass hysteria and even supernatural causes. Imagine hundreds of people dancing uncontrollably for days—how would such an event play out in today's hyper-connected world? We draw parallels to modern instances of mass hysteria and cult behaviors, pondering the power of collective belief. Plus, we explore the contagious nature of laughter and how such phenomena might spread in our digital age. This episode is a captivating blend of comedy, history, and thought-provoking discussions you won’t want to miss.

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Don (00:25):
Hello, hello everybody, welcome back to The Uncannery.
I'm Don,
I'm Ron,
I go second.

Ron (00:35):
No, no, I've told you 100 times I'm second billing.
You're lucky to be here sowe're not usually like this, but
uh, it's been an especiallyheated day.
It's been an especially yeah, I, I was seeing where I could
assert myself, uh, in terms ofthe dominance hierarchy, and uh,

(00:55):
clearly, ron's just gonnaassert himself, not giving you
an inch.
Why are you so heated, Doug?
I think it's uh, i't know, I'mjust like in the competitive
spirit here.
I've been playing a lot ofgames lately.
What kind of game, Doug?

Doug (01:10):
.
Well, I recently dipped I don'tknow, depending on when you're
listening to this, I feel likepickleball is at an all-time
high and I recently, when Itried out a game played with my
wife, my parents and I had areally good time.
Did you go to the senior center?
Let's just say we were theyoungest ones.

(01:31):
We were definitely the youngestones, but I had a really good
time.
I think it's very fun.
It's going to give you a lowerbarrier of entry than it is All
right, here he goes.

Ron (01:40):
He's evangelizing again, but before you do, please.
I needed to be told thismorning what pickleball was.
It's a.

Doug (01:51):
It's a thing I've heard.
I thought it was like squash.
Uh, yeah, probably just thevegetable connotation.
Yeah, the next time that you'rein a deli, if you ever are
given three pickles in yoursandwich box, you instantly are
transported to a magical worldin which you play a game.
Uh, real answer is um, yeah,it's very similar to a tennis or
a ping pong or a racquetball,kind of has all elements and
it's on a smaller court, playingwith a wiffle ball and like a

(02:14):
graphite or a carbon fiber.
Um, paddle that you make racecars out of that don't think
carbon fiber absolutely seriousbusiness and you feel like a
race car driver when you'replaying going two miles an hour,
but that's okay yeah, I bet youlook like a race car driver too
it made me.
It's uh, it's one of thosethings like if you look in the

(02:36):
mirror you see something else,but at the time you kind of feel
like superman.
Um no, but I, yeah, I wasreally enjoying myself, to say
the least you have.

Don (02:44):
You have that glow about you.

Ron (02:45):
The pickle, glow the pickle glow, you got that salty sheen.

Don (02:50):
Yeah that's right.
You can use a pickle as a lightbulb.

Ron (02:56):
I thought that was a potato .

Don (02:57):
No, a potato will produce electricity, but if you run
electricity through a pickle, itglows, so you have the pickle
glow.

Ron (03:04):
Really.

Don (03:05):
Yeah, run electricity through a pickle.

Doug (03:05):
It glows.
So you have the pickle glowreally.
Yeah, so I can take, uh, my fanthat's in my room currently,
and if I plugged in an extensioncord with a pickle at the end,
we'd be okay, I think we, uh,you and I, are still confused
with the idea of the differencebetween conducting and producing
light.

Ron (03:21):
I think don is telling us the pickle will produce a lot.
You can, uh, you could put thatin your closet and you could
pull a potato and it will causethe pickle it probably would
take more than one potato tomake the the pickle short out,
but yeah, but just they're cheap.
I can get a bunch of them forinsurance purposes.

Don (03:38):
We need to make sure.
Please don't try this at home.

Ron (03:40):
Look it up on youtube yeah, find, find mr beast, who's
probably already done this.

Doug (03:46):
He'll sell you the pickle have it on my new burgers.
Uh, yeah, the um.
No, I I'm I'm aware of that.
I just like the image of like,uh, thinking of several
extension cords, outlets anddaisy chains that are like led
with a bunch of pickles that arein the middle of them.
I just like the image a lot, tosay the least, but that's all
right so, ron, you've neverpartaken, I've never partaken in

(04:08):
a pickleball.

Ron (04:09):
Uh, doug wants me to pickleball.
I'm open to the idea ofpickleball, but, um, we've been
here now for maybe two hours andyou've brought pickleball up to
five different people probably,and well to mixed reception.
So this is why I'm wonderinglike is pickleball, like?
Are you in this for real?
Are you writing, which issometimes a thing you do doug?

Doug (04:30):
sometimes you get caught up in the excitement of a
beautiful day and you know anexciting idea I'm the type of
guy that if you're going to giveme some kind of new physical
activity, I'm very interested inpotentially trying it.

Ron (04:44):
So does that mean you're down with jujitsu, are you?

Doug (04:46):
no, no, pickleball better no, no, no, nothing tops the
jujitsu.
It's going to be too tough toget that out of the top spot,
but um, there's not a ton, it'san easier sell.
I guess I would say like hey,come on in mind, if I try to
break your leg versus versus,would you like to break your own
legs?

Ron (05:05):
Well, do you want to feel completely demasculated by me?

Don (05:10):
So jujitsu is part of how you identify yourself.
Would you say, that Is thatfair?
It's definitely not on thedriver's license, but um no as
opposed to pickleball, is whatI'm trying to is sure,
pickleball might be somethingyou do for, you know, a couple
weeks and then uh, I don't know.

Doug (05:27):
I mean I again.
I think that that's the reasonthat I'm I'm grasping at the
straws here right now, going whowants to play with me, because
I want to keep it going.

Don (05:35):
But you're gonna start wearing the headband to work and
oh yeah if I look likemackinrow by the end of this
summer.

Doug (05:42):
Yeah, I'll be very happy with pickleball.
Well, he's playing mackinrow's.

Ron (05:47):
The mackinrow yeah, I was gonna say he's actually playing
and still yelling at everyone.
Yeah so it is cool then it'sgot real people.

Doug (05:57):
It definitely has real people.
I don't think that we can saythat it's cool.
I don't.

Ron (06:01):
I don't think it's necessarily something you say
that's cool, but I reallyenjoyed it, but does a thing
need to be cool for you to havefun?

Doug (06:08):
no no definitely not, of course not.
Come on.
I was gonna say come ondungeons and dragons.

Ron (06:12):
I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that, yeah, I'm the
coolest drow to ever walk.
The, yeah, the, my broken lands, whatever that's right.

Doug (06:21):
I mean my black metal.
Sometimes I look at thestatistics on the black metal
albums that I listened to it.
It's like you're one of athousand people in the world
listening to this and I'm likethat tells you everything.

Ron (06:32):
Yeah, you ever like, seen like a someone who writes for a
metal magazine and then theypivot to video or something
You're like.
That's what this guy likeeveryone who writes for metal is
like the bookish mostaccountant looking dude who
happens to wear a black t-shirtAbsolutely.

Doug (06:48):
Absolutely.

Don (06:50):
So you don't think.
So, pickleball, does it havestaying power?
Is it just something that'sgoing to?

Doug (06:55):
is it just having a moment in society right now and it's
going to peak in popularity andthen it will fade off and, I
don't know, it'll be tetherballnext, or and then we'll fade off
and, I don't know, it'll betetherball next, or I feel that
there are enough people runningaround that it kind of feels
like it's at its peak at themoment because so many.
I mean, yeah, we went to alocation that got rid of a set
of tennis courts.

(07:15):
I'm sure the tennis communityhates pickleball, but yeah, I'm
seeing that they're likeconverting areas of tennis
centers into pickleball courts.
So I'm imagining that it'sgrowing right now.
It's going to have its heydayand then, like, begin to fall um
but yeah it's just a fad?

(07:35):
yeah, it might be, although Imean I the the person who gave
us our kind of introduction,said it's been around since, I
think, 65.
It's been around since 1965okay so why?

Ron (07:46):
it's a long fad don.

Don (07:47):
Yeah, I was gonna say uh I don't know why something exists
doesn't mean it's it's popularcorrect.
The fad comes from the, themomentary popularity yeah, like
nintendo was a playing cardcompany right until yeah
nintendo entertainment system,and then mario because I wanted
to, so to segue from ourpickleball conversation, or

(08:09):
that's right, yeah, what Iwanted to ask you guys actually
about fads and about uh growingup and your experiences of of
what uh.
Looking back at it now, likewhat fads were you involved in?
Or did you notice when you weregrowing up and maybe you
weren't involved in, but what uh?

Ron (08:25):
none, I'm always, you're always just cool.

Doug (08:27):
Yes, I've always marched to the beat of my own drum.
You're the leader, that's rightI set the.
I'm a trendsetter, they call meactually it's kind of true,
like if you think about, likethe warhammer obsession, it's
like there's nobody into this.
I'm in, I'll take it.
Yeah, that's it.
Painting these miniatures,definitely.
Yeah, you're right, yeah.

Ron (08:44):
I tend to just like lead people off of cliffs.
No, there's got to be a scoreof fads.
The first one, I mean this isthe fad of our generation, I
think, doug which is the Pokemon.

Doug (09:02):
Yeah, pocket monsters.

Ron (09:09):
Absolutely Pocket mon yeah mon.
Yeah, yeah, pokemon was bigwhat we were.
Pokemon still big baby.
All right, you, pokemon is huge.
Yeah, the so.
Is it a fad if it never reallywent away?
It had its fad, it had its ways.
Yeah, right, like the fact thatI was very into a
self-identified pocahomanimaniac yep, when I was in third
grade or whenever that came out.
Yeah, and the fact that I'm notnow tells me I participated in

(09:31):
a fad, right yeah, I got introuble in fourth grade.

Doug (09:33):
I had my collection of cards and like laminated sleeves
inside of a three-ring binder.
They had just been banned fromschool so like a group of guys
we would always meet like we'dfly to just outside of school
grounds, like so we could starttrading international waters.

Ron (09:48):
Yeah, exactly that's right that's right.

Don (09:52):
Why were they banned at?

Doug (09:52):
school um so many distractions from learning.

Ron (09:56):
Yeah were, and they were pornographic kids were drawing
things on those sand shrews uh,didn't experience any of that I.

Doug (10:06):
I'm curious what your school did, but, um, no, I
remember going out to recess.
Um, we had kids whose cardswere stolen.
We had parents who were callingthe school saying my kids cards
a, b and C.
I don't want this kid tradingcards with this kid because he
did this, this and tookadvantage of him I remember that
being a thing, and so we gotthis kid's a card shark.

(10:27):
Yeah, exactly, exactly but oh,the credit you had when you had
a, uh, a charizard.

Ron (10:34):
I stole my friend's charizard.
See he was, he was moving.
This is perfect heist by theway does he know?

Don (10:40):
or this is like revealing to the world.
This is confession.

Ron (10:43):
This kid does not know?
I don't think.
Yeah, his family was movingstates and, like I, went in in
the chaos of a move, yeah, and Ifound his Pokemon and I took
his Charizard.
That's how, that's the power ofa fad baby.

Doug (10:59):
Yeah, you're willing to commit crimes and sins.
Yeah, wow, yeah yeah, that'svicious.
I also got duped during thePokemon era.
Do you even know what aGameShark is?
Oh yeah, don.
Are you familiar with this?

Don (11:12):
No, it sounds like a gaming system.

Doug (11:16):
It's close.
So I'm sure we're familiar withthe original Game Boy.
There was something that cameout called a Game Shark in which
you could plug in a cartridgeholder into the already
cartridge holder that's on aGame Boy, right, but it's like
this modification chip and thenyou place your game into the
chip inside of the card.
It's like a.

(11:36):
You know, it hacks yourcartridge essentially and you
could do different things toyour games.
You can modify what ishappening within them.
It pulls up a menu and it letsyou do different things.
So one of the ways you couldaccess one of the Pokemon on on
um and I don't remember if I wasusing it to like get extra
items, I don't know, it's beenlong enough, but I think it was

(11:57):
the only way that you could geta certain Pokemon.
I think you could get Mew Ifyou only went to the side of the
island.
You had a game shark.
The point of the story is, afterI had hacked it had a buddy at
school, um, who said, can Iborrow that?
I said, sure, um, absolutelyEverybody wants this.
I'd be happy to do that.
So a few weeks go by, hey, canI get that game shark back?

(12:18):
I want to make sure yeah,absolutely, I'll bring it to
school.
Two months go by and I'm likewhat's going to happen?
And so I eventually tell himcause this is third grade, so is
he a third grade or fourthgrade?
And I remember telling him I'mgoing to need that back tomorrow
.
My mom said she's going to cometo school if I don't get it back
.
And he goes, okay, I'll bringit.
And so we get to school.

(12:40):
I see him, he's got it in hishands, hands, he gives it to me
and then quickly goes sorry, andruns away.
And sure enough, it had beendropped on the ground and broken
.
And the shame of the kid.
That moment and the funniestand most disgusting part of this
is, I remember, as if it were,like you know, the mafia had

(13:01):
assassinated somebody within myfamily.
I dropped to my knees and heldmy arms toward the sky in
dramatic fat shenanigans, likelet out this huge scream, like
just so upset that my game sharkgot destroyed because I'd saved
up so much allowance for thatand that's why they banned it.
Don't yeah, because childrenlook at this fad, yeah, yeah,
this fad, yeah.

(13:22):
I mean like, why am I holdingmy arms up like I'm willem dafoe
and platoon?

Ron (13:26):
that's not good I think you can find a lot of fads based on
things that were banned inschool, that I remember getting
banned.
So I remember tech decks, thelittle miniature finger
skateboards those were allbanned.
Um uh, crazy bones.
Remember crazy bones littletiny pieces of plastic shaped
like weed cartoons from the sideof a vape shop.

Doug (13:49):
And then you would flick them.

Ron (13:50):
It was just jacks right.
And you just flick them.
What were your fads, Don?

Don (13:56):
Well, speaking of things that should have been banned, I
wish fidget spinners had beenbanned a couple years ago.
Everybody had those, butthinking back to my childhood,
fidget spinners had been banneda couple of years ago.
Everybody had those.
But, um, yeah, but thinkingback to uh, to my childhood,
like I've had a hard timeanswering this question for
myself, uh, because I feel likeI can notice fads in other
people, but I kind of like it'shard because you do feel like I

(14:19):
know you're joking, rob, but I,like you did at the beginning,
where everything that I do is isfor a reason, um, I'm not just
doing it because everybody isdoing it, but uh, um, I think,
uh, there was a fashion fad whenI was in high school where we
would uh take our jeans and wewould roll them up on the bottom
, but you had to peg it, so itwas tight to your, to your ankle

(14:40):
, um, and, uh, I did that causethat's what everybody was doing,
but that was the fashion.
So, I don't know, it seems likea fad, cause it's not done
anymore, but I bet you it'sgoing to start happening again,
cause they their uh.

Doug (14:52):
students are starting to uh to roll their pants out, but
uh um, it's weird with fashionbecause it's so cyclical, like
you know, when my kids arewatching stranger things and
then showing up like I look likethis and it's like which was
made in the 80s and you'rebasically copying 80s fashion in
some way.
Um, like, I've seen a lot of um, a lot of the makeup that's
being done right now looks verylike suzy suze from suzy and the

(15:15):
banshees, which I think isreally cool because it's like
such a like distinct and likeartistic interpretation.
But I have literally told kidlike oh, the suzy sues and
they're like what?

Ron (15:27):
I love that dessert.

Doug (15:28):
Yeah, old man, hey old guy get out of here, um, but yeah.
So it's hard with fashionbecause and then maybe.
I mean, I guess that doesn'tdisqualify it from being a fad,
even if it comes back well, yeah, I mean, people laugh looking
at your pictures, your oldhaircuts and you know who had a
mullet and who had a crew cutand all that.

Don (15:47):
Mullets are back.
Okay, that's a fad.

Ron (15:49):
The spiked hair gel chipmunk look was like a thing I
definitely had where, like thespikes are way too you know,
they're not like cool enough to,they're not long enough to be
punk but longer than like youcould wear in an office job.
Did you ever do bleach tips?
No, I never bleached my tips.

Doug (16:08):
Oh, I did that, I did you.
Oh yeah, my sixth gradeactually my whole sixth grade
photo, or it's either fifth orsixth grade photo is a fad.
I'm doing the rocks eyebrow.
I'm doing the rocks like in asignature eyebrow that he would
do on uh wwf at the time.
I've got the bleach tips andthen I'm wearing oh, does anchor
blue even exist anymore?

(16:28):
Oh yeah, remember that store,yeah, yeah I had like the shiny
shirts from the early 2000s.

Ron (16:35):
That was a thing um the coolest place you could get a
shirt when I was in middleschool was tilly's it's that
vibe.

Doug (16:43):
yeah, anchor blue is kind of like Tilly's yeah.

Don (16:46):
Listening to you describe Pokemon um, there was it
reminded me I actually had.
I had forgotten there was a fadwhen I was in fourth grade.
Um, and it's going to make mesound like I'm older than I am,
because when we did this it wasretro already.
Um, but we played marbles at uh, at recess and it was a.

(17:08):
It was a big, like you had toget the.
You know, the cat's eye was the, it was the premium marble and
you had a shooter and you had aright.
Oh yeah, um and uh.
But when I, my mom, got worriedwhen we started collecting
marbles and and playing atrecess and stuff, because we
were playing like high stakes,like you would lose marbles and
and and things, um, because mybrother, who's who's

(17:31):
significantly older than I am Imean, he's not ancient, but he's
when I was in sixth grade hewould have been about twice my
age um had been suspended fromschool for playing marbles.
Um, they, they suspended himfor gambling oh.

Ron (17:47):
And so your mom's like, oh, no, it's coming back.

Doug (17:49):
It's awakening in him it's a, it's a plague yeah right,
which that immediately brings uppogs.

Ron (17:57):
That was like the thing is like when I was in.
Yes, yeah, I didn't.
I never saw a pog in my lifeuntil I started watching
simpsons and like that was ajoke.

Doug (18:06):
I think that that's the most brilliant of all the
marketing, because it's just thecheapest printed materials you
can possibly imagine.
And same thing as well as aplay for key, are we playing for
keeps and then you got areputation if you didn't play
for keeps, because it's like, ohyou can't believe it.

Ron (18:20):
He values his property.
That's lame beanie babies a lotof these kind of cheaper kids
things.
But we got way into the beaniebabies collecting those when we
were on road trips and stuff.

Don (18:34):
My dad had hundreds of beanie babies.
He would be up late at night onthe computer shopping.

Ron (18:41):
That was his pastime did it kind of coincide with the
beginning of e eBay or something?

Don (18:46):
Was it one of those like first?

Ron (18:48):
item commodities.

Doug (18:50):
Early eBay was fun, Isn't yeah?
How do you not get into fads?

Don (18:53):
I feel.
Well, I think that's a that.
Let let's take a look, cause,uh, cause I have story that I,
uh, I want to share with you alland see if we can figure out
what's going on here.
So we, uh, we need to go backin time.
Okay, we're gonna go back to uh, to 1518 always way back with
you, don't I?

Ron (19:13):
know the rest of us.
We're over here talking aboutstuff from the 80s that's our
ancient years 1989.

Don (19:18):
Yeah, yeah so 1518 is the year we're in the city of
strasbourg.

Ron (19:23):
Strasbourg, that's in austria, today it's in france oh
yeah, a lot of borders shiftedin that part of the world.
It is, it's uh wars come.

Don (19:34):
It's in an area called alice and it uh, but back then
it wouldn't have been france, itwas the holy roman emperor
empire, um, so it's a.
It's a weird space, though it'sa um, it's almost germany, like
it's.
You can take a 15 minute tramride today to uh to get to
germany, um, it is kind of kindof in that uh, that eastern area

(19:55):
and um and so in 1518, germanis the language.
So, um, there's uh, mid-july in1518, a lady named Frau Trofea
goes outside one day and startsdancing.

Ron (20:13):
Fun, nice yeah.

Doug (20:14):
You trying to tell me the dancing's a fad?

Ron (20:16):
Well, I mean, did she invent dancing?
Yeah, this is the beginning ofdance.

Don (20:20):
Yeah, dancing has existed, but she's out there Prove it.
She steps into into the cobbledstreet right outside her house
and she just starts moving.
There's no music, she's notsinging, she just is moving, and
the description of her dancewas that it was neither graceful
nor joyful.

Ron (20:39):
Oh, sounds like me when I dance.

Don (20:44):
So her body seems to be seized by a, an invisible force
I like that, compelling her todance with this unending fervor
and she, she doesn't stop thesun sets.
The sun sets she dances allnight.
The next day sun comes up,she's still outside her house

(21:05):
dancing and so people start togather, they start to look
around and they're like, oh mygosh, what's going on?
She's having trouble breathing,her shoes are clunking on the
cobblestones.
Everybody is first kind ofcurious, right Like this is a
strange thing.
But then they realize she can'tstop.

(21:27):
She's dancing and she can'tstop, so they just watch her for
about a week.

Doug (21:34):
A week.

Don (21:35):
A week.

Doug (21:36):
Okay, pause, this is a fable, all right, we don't do
fables on this podcast, don wedo hard science.
We do.
Bigfoot and missing children inyosemite yeah and let's just
say that this region of france,the worst neighbors ever like oh
, she's still over there dancing.
Let's not try to help her,because I mean, at this point,
get two people to restrain herand she stops right no, she, she

(22:00):
can fight people off to move,even when people try to grab her
.
Oh okay, so we've at least madean attempt.
I just thought these peoplewere awful.

Ron (22:06):
So are we using the word dance sort of liberally.
Yeah, so sort of like do wejust mean she is convulsing
while she's?

Don (22:15):
on two feet.
She seems to be upright, sowe'll come back to what could be
happening.
And convulsions is apossibility, right, but she
doesn't lose her ability tomaintain her balance, which
which raises an eyebrow aboutwhether or not it's just
convulsion.
But here's here's where ittakes a turn.
After about a week of dancingall by herself outside, all of a

(22:38):
sudden somebody else joins herand they start dancing.
Yeah, no, about a dozen people,yeah, and they start dancing
and they can't stop.
Um and uh, they don't seem tobe having a good time, so
there's no music like a whiteperson's wedding one person

(23:00):
starts and slowly othersaggregate, but it's never that.
Yeah they start complaining,they start crying, their feet
are bleeding um.
They start begging onlookersfor help.
Tell the dj to go home there'sno dj now.

Doug (23:18):
Here's the problem, don't you asked us about fads?
Yeah but this okay, when I wasplaying pogs when I had, we
didn't talk about tamagotchiswhen I oh yeah, another band I
guess that's what defines a fatis whatever gets banned at a
school.
Um, when I was taking out mytamagotchi to feed it, when I
was looking through my pokemoncards.
I'm not crying, not screaming,I'm not.

(23:39):
I'm not standing in the middlewith my pokemon going I can't
stop trading these thingssomebody help me.

Don (23:45):
You could have stopped at any time.
You would have put yourtamagotchi down and just let it
die no, eventually I did.

Ron (23:51):
My mom took me out of school so I could watch my
tamagotchi die, that's true,that's beauty.

Doug (23:57):
Yeah, mother, you're trying to tell me that
tamagotchi wasn't real.

Ron (24:01):
I will not buy that.
You're right.
I guess your point taken, don,there's a compulsion.
Telling me as an eight-year-oldor, however, whenever this was
to stop playing Pokemon.
I don't know if I could have.
You're right, Maybe.
But again to Doug's point, I'mbeing very neutral this episode.

Doug (24:22):
Thank you.

Ron (24:24):
Finally, one point to doug, because he wasn't in pain when
he was playing pokemon well, ifwe try to take those pokemon
away?

Don (24:32):
I bet you he would have been.

Doug (24:34):
Yeah, but they're engaging this compulsive act of thanks,
my pickleball point I'll servenow um.
Yeah, this is I'm.
Obviously I'm gonna let youfinish um, but I think I I'm not
convinced exactly yet because,like we're not convinced that
they're dancing.

Don (24:53):
What are you not convinced?

Ron (24:54):
he thinks you're hoaxing us somehow.

Doug (24:55):
Yeah, it's like you tried to bring up fads in the
beginning of this.
We do this cute thing that youprobably have caught on to where
we start with, like here's alittle question for you, oh, a
beautiful segue.

Ron (25:03):
And here we are saying people were in pain back in 1510
last time.

Don (25:09):
Last time I gave you a conspiracy theory.

Doug (25:11):
Yeah, yeah, all right and, to be fair, I mean things
generally when you think ofthings being medieval.
I think we use that adjectivenow to say like it was painful,
dreary, awful in some ways.

Don (25:21):
So maybe dancing did start, awful, so I I I will continue
the story, but I will tell youthat that what I have told you
so far is well documented, likemultiple sources corroborating
what I've told you so far.

Doug (25:33):
I I didn't doubt the historicity of this, I just you
just doubt your intentions, forsure.

Don (25:39):
Doubts my integrity.
That's why I come every week,so within a month, there's 400
Dancing uncontrollably in thestreets all in this one town,
all in this one town the bodiesare twisting and and Turning in,
like I say they're.
They're undergoing physicalinjury because they are dancing

(26:00):
so much.

Ron (26:02):
I'm stressed out so tell her hundred, you said 400.
Yeah over the course of a month.

Don (26:06):
Mm-hmm and Town Council tries to figure out what to do.
Alright, do so.
They look for signs ofsupernatural intervention.
Is this a possession?
And what they decide to do?
Their solution is they probablyjust need to dance it out.
We just need to let them getwhatever is in their system out.

(26:27):
Let them get whatever's intheir system out.
So they actually they buildstages and they hire musicians
to come in and and play music,so that the dancers can, you
know, finally reach the end ofthe dance, I guess, or?

Doug (26:40):
Ron, when was the last time that you danced it out?

Ron (26:44):
My wedding yeah, fully out though it was done.
Oh yeah, yeah, I can dance onceevery seven years and I'm good.

Don (26:53):
Okay, it was done.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, I can dance once everyseven years and I'm good, okay,
cool.
Do you think that worked?
Do you think they danced it out?
Would that be the rightsolution?
Somebody can't stop dancing, soyou're going to play music for
them.
It's more fun if they didn't.

Doug (27:03):
It's more fun if they did so I'm hoping no, you're
sadistic.

Don (27:15):
Well, it doesn't, doesn't, doesn't work.
They keep dancing, despite thefact that the the music is
playing.
They call doctors in, um, andthey can't figure out what's
going on.
Um, there's.
They start to be concerned thenabout demonic possession and,
of course, um, and an overheatedblood is an option.
No, hot blood, and uh, andfinally, what they, what they
kind of decide is uh, is there'sa, a saint called saint vitus?

Doug (27:40):
uh, saint vitus dance.
That's it.
Is this what?
Okay, what are you?

Ron (27:45):
this is a metal, you're all like liking this thing and I
don't know what you're talkingabout.

Doug (27:49):
Please, let me like something wrong.
I just want to be, a part of it.

Don (27:52):
Negative points, Doug.

Doug (27:54):
My server man.

Don (27:55):
What do you know about St Vitus Dance?

Doug (27:57):
There is a metal band named St Vitus, and so I at
least like looked up theconnotation of St Vitus Dance as
being like what that came from,and I'm really hoping that we
make some connections here,because I just like Wino
heinrich's band, uh, saint vinus.
But if, if you're about to tellme this is where it comes from,
I'm very excited.
It is where it comes from, ohyeah um saint vitus was.

Don (28:22):
uh was a saint from the early fourth century, I think um
and uh was part of a group ofof christian saints that in the
Middle Ages were called theFourteen Holy Helpers, cool band
.

Ron (28:37):
That's also a great band, yeah.

Don (28:41):
The Fourteen Holy Helpers all had specific things that
they were the patron of right.
So Vitus was who you would prayto for protection against
epilepsy, um, protection againstlightning, um and protection
from rabid animals.

Ron (29:01):
What connects those three?

Don (29:02):
I don't know.

Doug (29:04):
Convulsions maybe yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

Don (29:07):
But, uh, but if you made St Vitus angry, the curse of St
Vitus is that you would have todance.

Ron (29:16):
Ah Do all the saints have a curse associated with them too?
A lot of them do.

Don (29:23):
That's cool.
But I don't know them.
I know what their painterhood'sof right, right.
So they ask and considerwhether or not Frau Treffea did
something to anger the saint,probably, and receive this curse
.
So she is taken in the back ofa cart, still dancing.

Doug (29:46):
I was going to say got to be still moving around a bit.

Don (29:48):
I think that the accounts say, I think that she was, um,
it took two people to restrainher, enough to hold her within
the cart, um, but uh, they takeher to St Vitus's shrine and, uh
, they pray over her and shestops dancing Love it, love it,
love it.
Yeah.

Doug (30:08):
So, yeah, the credibility that I feel is being challenged
is we're at four month count,correct?

Don (30:17):
well, that's just when she stops.
I'm not sure when she went tothe shrine.
The plague went on untilseptember, so july to september
three about three months, tookthree months and during that
time, like, say, hundreds ofpeople um up to 400 all at once
at one point and people startedto die.

Doug (30:34):
I was gonna say who's bringing them water?

Don (30:36):
that was gonna be yeah the reports say that up to 15 people
a day are dropping dead fromexhaustion and dehydration, and
st Vitus is a rough guy.

Doug (30:49):
Yeah, yeah, no joke.

Ron (30:50):
So, but the patient zero survives Patient zero survives
they identify her and they takeher and pray over her, and does
that end the bout for everyone?
Do they all stop dancing, orcan they take everyone to the
shrine now?

Don (31:06):
Well, it seems to taper off after her resolution.
Okay, because that's right, ittakes about that much time for
them to figure out what to do.
And you know off after, afterher resolution.
Okay, because that's right, ittakes about that much time for
them to figure out what to do.
Um and uh, yeah all right.

Ron (31:18):
And then do they interrogate her, do they?

Don (31:22):
torture her what's what's happening?
What did you do?
Yeah?

Ron (31:28):
does she speak at all about ?

Doug (31:30):
oh, thank you, you saved me from the groups of I'll never
help that rabid rabbit again orsomething like that.

Ron (31:40):
She's kind of timidly have a good day walks away.

Don (31:43):
I think we're lucky to know her name.
Yeah, true.

Ron (31:47):
How do we know this, Don?
Where's all this coming from?

Don (31:49):
so most of the records come from a physician named uh uh uh
, para um.
I can't remember.
He doesn't know the name.
We caught him, so the doctor'sname is paracelsus um.
Paracelsus, he's a the parrotcelsius not celsius first name
para para paracelsus is his, ishis last name.

Ron (32:12):
Who am I thinking?
Of this whole era, celsus isn'tthat Para Paracelsus is his, is
his last name.
Who am I thinking of?
Paracelsus?
Isn't that a Greek dude, Idon't know?
Isn't he like?

Doug (32:17):
that's a name.

Ron (32:18):
I know that's like one of the famous doctor people from
olden days.

Don (32:22):
He may be he may be borrowed the name from somebody
but he's Swiss, um, and he'sabout 25 years old when this
plague happens.
Claims to fame for him.
He is the first doctor todescribe syphilis.

Ron (32:37):
That's why I know him Okay.

Don (32:43):
And to prescribe mercury as the cure for syphilis.
So mercury, that continues tobe, the treatment for syphilis
through the 19th century.

Doug (32:50):
Two known things to make one crazy.
I love that.
Let's just add fuel to the fire.
So he's a great doctor.
I mean, for his time he was.

Don (33:00):
So yeah, so mostly his record is where a lot of it
comes from, and he was opposedto a lot of the conventional
thinking about what washappening.
So that's why we have a lot ofwriting from him, because, like,
he didn't think it was a goodidea to play music for these
people, he didn't think it wasum, he didn't think it was a

(33:20):
supernatural cause.
Um, he, uh, he actually uh, youknow, for as long ago as it was
, he posited a lot ofpsychological explanations for
what was happening, likesuggesting that there was an
emotional disturbance orsomething else going on that was
contributing to this, eventhough psychology wasn't a thing

(33:41):
and he certainly didn't havethat word in his vocabulary.

Doug (33:43):
But, um, seems to be a, a good empath in terms of his
bedside manner he just alwaysseems like during the medieval
and Renaissance era, all that ittook to be a doctor was
confidence.
You know, it seems like you'reill in this way.
Take these leeches.

Ron (34:00):
Like what's going on?
Found some bugs.
You want me to put them in yourbed, that's right.
But he's not one of those.
He's a good.
He's a good doctor, I'm sure heused leeches.

Don (34:15):
That was.
That was what they did.
You're allowed to use leeches,I'm not knocking anyone for
using leeches when it was cool,yeah, the leech fad um.

Ron (34:22):
He's the town doctor.
Is he called in?
Like he's called in, okay sohe's like we got to go to the
big city.
This is a movie.
I can see this movie alreadyright right, we're.
We're in his office.
He's in the palace of Vienna.
Get a call.
What they're sending me toStrasburg, what's in Strasburg?
Hard cut people dancing anddying in the street.
It's the cinematic, theelectric.

Don (34:44):
Strasburg festival.

Doug (34:45):
Yeah, the medieval version of house music.
Just go, he's out there.

Ron (34:51):
It's like the scene in Jaws when they got to get all the
people off the beach.

Doug (34:54):
And he's like we got to get these musicians off of these
streets.
Crash to your face.

Don (35:01):
Get out of the water, billy .
So what's going on is myquestion.
So this is a thing thathappened for sure.
Like it's not a conspiracy,like I led you guys with last
time, like this is definitely anactual historical event.
It's documented.
People died.
What's going on?

Doug (35:18):
so I'm drawn to think of, yeah, diseases that make people
mad.

Ron (35:27):
Yeah, my head, I'm going some sort of microbial right
because like uh, uh, what werewe the?
The uh lately, or in thezeitgeist again, is the last of
us tv show in the video gameseries.
Yeah, the idea that there arefungal nodes that can control
your brain and zombify you andthat's partially based on a

(35:48):
reality of like certain insectspecies, can be infected by a
fungus right.

Doug (35:52):
Yes, that video, is it a?

Ron (35:53):
fungus.
Doug Don, who do you want?
Tell us who you want.
One point each of you, If wecan move on.

Don (36:02):
It's a possibility it was examined as a possibility and
remains a possibility that afungus called ergot, which grows
on grain, could have pollutedthe local food supply and that
would, of course, cause a masshallucination that could
manifest itself this way.
I got me the ergot again.

Ron (36:24):
Right, okay, so like hallucinations is like another
element.

Don (36:28):
But for two months Was there like a ergot.
Well, if it was in the foodthat they would keep, like it
would keep resupplying, right.

Doug (36:34):
If it was in all, if we were all eating erga bread right
and and, like they were dancingso long, like how do they eat
and drink like they have to havebeen eating and drinking while
they're dancing like you'restill?

Don (36:44):
not going to be able to like have enough nutrition and
right but they're going to keep,you know, re-eeding the high
every time they have a piece ofbread.

Doug (36:52):
Then it would last for a new image unlocked of, I'm sorry
, just people continuing todance, tears just streaming down
their face, but just shovelingbread in their mouth like I
can't stop this bread's decent,it's back again.
Oh, this is insanity.

Don (37:14):
Ergot poisoning is also on the list of possible suspects
for the Salem witch trials.

Ron (37:20):
Oh, there we go.
I think we got it.
It's in the ergot.
It's in the ergot again Doneand dusted, but I bet you got
five other hot theories to sendour way.
I got two other hot theories,but our way.

Don (37:32):
I got two other hot theories, but um, but I will
tell you for ergot, um that, uh,that this event in Strasburg in
1518, it's not the only timethis has happened.

Doug (37:44):
This is what I was waiting for.
Yes, no, it's struck again.

Ron (37:47):
Yeah 1962, the Beatles arrived in New York.

Don (37:51):
That's right.
Yeah, 1962, the Beatles arrivein New York.
That's right.
Forgot poisoning in New York inthe Ed Sullivan Theater.
It was in the popcorn.
They were sprinkling it on top.
No, actually dancing plagueshave been recorded as far back
as the 11th century.
The first one is 1017.
This one has a legendarybackground, so the story for

(38:16):
this one seems much, more, muchstranger.
So the story is in a towncalled Cold Big in Saxony.
On Christmas Eve about 18people gathered in a circle
outside the church and starteddancing and they apparently were
making so much noise andclapping and chanting that the

(38:40):
priest couldn't do Christmasmass inside the church.
So he came out kind of upsetand he told them, shook his
finger and said you better stopdancing.
And they didn't.
Oh no, I know.

Ron (38:51):
Never spite a priest and when the priest shook his
fingers.

Doug (38:55):
He just kept the fingers going staying alive staying
alive.

Don (38:58):
No, they got him too so the priest, in all his christian
charity, cursed them oh I didn'tknow they could do that yeah, I
think, yeah, I don't.
I think it's one of the lesserknown powers.

Doug (39:11):
Yeah you get eternal forgiveness, but you also can
curse people.

Don (39:16):
It's an orthodox thing he cursed them to dance for a whole
year.
Oh, and the story is they didthat.
They danced outside the church,uh, for a whole year, until uh
10, 18, and on Christmas daythey collapsed.

Doug (39:35):
But scientific explanation is the Eucharist was probably
filled with ergot Ergot yes, Idon't know.

Don (39:42):
Well, they didn't have it because they didn't even let
them finish mass.
So they would have had to,would have been.

Ron (39:47):
Christmas, ergot.
I'm not sharing my Eucharistwith those dirty dancers.

Don (39:53):
So that's the first record of a dancing plague.
Christmas, or I'm not sharingmy Eucharist with those dirty
dancers, so that's the firstrecord of a dancing plague.
But again that one has thislegendary component to it,
because the story is they dancefor a whole year without eating
and drinking.

Ron (40:01):
But still there's that religious connection, though it
ties them right.

Don (40:04):
There is.
But then again in 1188, uh,this one's in Wales.
Um, then in 1247 in Erfurt thisone's in Wales Then in 1247 in
Erfurt, germany, and then 1278in Belgium and 1374 in the
Rhineland, In 1418 inSwitzerland I love this 1463 in
Trier Germany.

Ron (40:23):
And all of these are people dancing till they die.
Yeah, or are we just callingany sustained?

Don (40:34):
It's a group of people dancing uncontrollably.
They, they want to stop, butthey cannot stop.
They don't all have deathsinvolved with them, although in
uh 1278 in belgium, um 200people are involved, and they,
they cross a bridge and thebridge collapses, and so there
were some, some injuries therefor sure, but it so.
My point is that it happensfrom about the 11th century all

(40:56):
the way through the 16th century.
A good portion of them arealong the Rhine River in Germany
.

Doug (41:03):
Okay, yeah, because my, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Ron (41:06):
Ryan, I was just going to say it all seems very German and
Northern European Right.

Doug (41:11):
So the techno craze of today, right and that's
continued.

Ron (41:14):
It's always been right.

Doug (41:16):
Autobahn has always been in that people's blood whether
you're at berghain or you're onthe rhine um, we gotta stop all
the people on the river cruises.
We gotta get off those cruises,get them out of there so I mean
because my next question wasgoing to be like when does this
wheat crop die out?
Because, like ergot poisoningyou said this earlier, correct

(41:38):
Like this is still a possiblething.

Don (41:41):
Yeah, it's on the list of possibilities for what's going
on.

Ron (41:46):
So but what's the?
I think we cut you off when youwere making the rind connection
.
Is the is the rind?
I'm assuming that's adjacentfarmland where they grow the
wheat that can contain the ergotthat would be, yeah, part of
the.

Don (42:01):
The question would be if, if it's reoccurring and if it is
ergot, then is it being spreadthrough?
Right?
Yeah, baby, so that'spossibility, but, um, it, it
doesn't seem to be the mostlikely, um, because it ends so
if it were ergot, it wouldcontinue and it um it doesn't,

(42:25):
so is the the?

Ron (42:27):
when's our most recent outbreak of this plague, the?

Don (42:30):
most documented documented one is 1518.
There's two after it in the16th century.
So, like, 1574 is the mostrecently documented version, and
then it stops.
Okay, we haven't had we haven'thad one since.
Cross our fingers, knock onwood, yeah, yeah.

Doug (42:43):
It's interesting.
I think we just do this toourselves.
Now it raves right, Well, likeyeah, yeah, we just call it.
You start dancing every time weplay our theme songs.
This is a hundred percent whenwe get those video right, the
behind the scenes, absolutely itwas when I saw doug do the
trill on the drums that I knewwe had something special.
Um, yeah, I mean, but yeah, I'mthinking of like yeah raves

(43:04):
today.
And then, like the connectionof like, how many people are on
psychedelics, because, like I,uh I think I attended electric,
electric daisy carnival in 2011and, um, unfortunately, like
that was the most, I've seenpeople like wheeled out on
stretchers that are likeconvulsing and having seizures
my guess is because of dirtydrugs, just because, like, I've
been at other gigantic festivalswhere people have passed out

(43:26):
from heat exhaustion, but likeit seemed like everybody who was
leaving was like seizing, andso it it is interesting Were
they eating the bread this isthe thing or the bread of life.

Ron (43:35):
They always say bring your own bread to those festivals.
B-y-o-b.

Don (43:39):
In so many different ways, yeah, so Urgot's possibility,
but, like I say, because it diesout of it, like the
biologically, that's not howthat would happen.
It would, it would take hold,so it could be St Vitus.

Ron (43:52):
Yeah, yeah, what's up?
Okay, that's right yeah.

Don (43:54):
I forgot about him.

Ron (43:55):
He's not a metal band or he is a metal band, he's the metal
man coming all the wayThousands of years later started
a band.

Doug (44:03):
So I was going to ask you if any of these have other
connections to St Vitus, likedid anyone else get the idea we
need to take them to the shrine?

Ron (44:11):
um yes, oh, this vitus is a interesting fellow.
Why am I only now hearing aboutsaint vitus?
I feel like if he was the guyin charge of a series of dancing
plagues over the course ofhundreds of years and when you
pray to him he actually causesyou to stop dancing I would know
him more than saint francis asissy.

(44:33):
It's because you don't dance.

Doug (44:35):
Yep, you're right, I knew him right away?

Don (44:37):
do you think that out?
Very disappointing but youasked earlier, doug, if there
was any connection between themetal band and yeah, and the
saint, and I know about thesaint I don't know about the
metal band, so is there aconnection?

Doug (44:50):
um, so.
So what's interesting?
I, I would say not really otherthan I could see them being
into the idea of the dancingplague like, uh, they're, they
were signed to sst records,which is famously the um label
that signed black flag and theminute men and it's like they're
kind of like a punk rock label.
But when Heinrich's band was um, they were specifically um

(45:16):
signed to this as well and theyhad like a very slow metal,
sludgy sound like a little bitmore in the style of like black
Sabbath, like, if you canimagine that Um, and so they had
like a very cool kind ofdifference.
Um, I think the album that Ihad from them was born Too Late.
I think that that was therelease.
Let me fact check that as yougo on.

(45:38):
But yeah, nothing direct.
Yeah, they didn't stateanything.

Don (45:43):
So, as far as I know, savitas was never signed to a
label.
Oh, well you should get him onthere, but I don't know how the
connection was made between hisstory and dancing.

Ron (45:56):
I know that he is connected to the dancing plagues, um, but
uh, um it might just be that,like you said, the convulsion
thing right, like he seems to itcould be.
But like are there?

Don (46:06):
his story doesn't include any, so he just it's like actual
story yeah, his actual story.
He's um um.
He's a sicilian, um senatoraround uh 300 ad um.
He's persecuted by diocletian.
So he's part of that, thefamous diocletian christian
persecution which we talkedabout in my last episode yeah,

(46:27):
definitely um and was put todeath.
He survived a bunch of torturesthat's part of what made him a
saint and they eventually justcut his head off.
Wow.

Ron (46:38):
Yeah.

Don (46:40):
They boiled him alive.

Ron (46:40):
Was a lot of the Again but he survived that.

Don (46:44):
So then they had to cut his head off.

Ron (46:45):
Oh.

Don (46:45):
Yeah, but again I don't know how we get from that to how
did we miss him?

Doug (46:49):
in the boiling episode, don, are you drawn to this or
something?

Ron (46:52):
Is that your greatest?
We're not trying to find linksbetween dancing plays.
We're trying to find linksbetween Don's psyche and boiling
.

Doug (46:59):
At the end of this podcast , we'll really find ourselves.

Ron (47:02):
Is the sanctification process.
I'm assuming a lot of thesewere canonized around the same
time or something right, and sowere they just sort of handing
out roles, uh, and sometimesthey fit thematically and other
times they're like well, we needa, we need a rabid animals guy.
So sorry, vitus, that's you.

Don (47:21):
The formal canonization is actually a relatively recent um
phenomenon.
Uh, so saints prior to thatwere more um became saints by um
.
But but everyone just agreeingto folkloric yeah, okay, so um.

Doug (47:42):
Oh, I need to retcon really quick.
I'm sorry to interrupt you itwasn't.
Sst.
It wasn't, it was SST.
I've been saying why?
No, heinrich, it was Weinrich,Hence he's very affectionately
known as just wino, like peoplewill just call him wino, and I
knew there was an heinrich inthere, and heinrich, of course,
being the most comic of allcommon cannot come.

Ron (48:02):
Yeah, not making fun of the heinrichs.
How could you change your namealready, buddy?
Wow, why no?
It's gonna come after you,absolutely so well, his name is
not heinrich, so he's gotnothing to worry about.

Doug (48:09):
Yeah, forgive me for derailing like I always do.

Ron (48:10):
Wow, why not, it's gonna come after you absolutely so
well, his name's not Heinrich,so he's got nothing to worry
about.

Don (48:14):
Yeah forgive me for derailing, like I always do sure
so do we think that it'ssupernatural the same virus
cursing our dancers, and that'sthe real explanation it sounds
cool.

Doug (48:24):
I was gonna say I'd love it to be.
I'd love it to be, wouldn't itbe fun if that's in our universe
?

Ron (48:29):
I can't believe them as we.
It's too hard.
Yeah, you want to believe and Ican't believe.

Doug (48:33):
I'll always be the role we need to fox molder.

Ron (48:36):
Yeah, the group and I'll be the scully drugger.

Doug (48:41):
What's right are you thinking that gives like skull
drugger?

Ron (48:48):
Oh my gosh Anyways, but this would be like a really big
deal for, you know, believertypes, people who want to prove
the material capabilities of thesupernatural and the saints,
right.
So is this brought up a lot oftimes in those sorts of

(49:09):
discourses?

Don (49:10):
I don't think it is, because it's not.
I mean, if it is evidence of asaint's interaction, it's not a
good one, right?
It's a saint, causing people todie because they dance too much
.
Oh, but then he fixed it right.
Well, at least for one.
For one, yeah.

Ron (49:26):
Okay, so maybe, yeah, maybe Vitus is there.
I'm trying to think of a thirdand I'm wondering like, okay,
we've kind of got the biologicalcovered in the ergot right
we've got the supernatural withvitus.
Is there a sociological kind ofuh angle here, right?
That does people's frow, trafea, trafea, has she.

(49:50):
Is there some reason shebelieves she has to dance right
like does she?
Does she not have full?
Does she not believe she hasfull possession of herself?
Would that?

Doug (49:59):
mean that the people who saw her dancing go.
I guess I'll just start to likeI I think, yeah, that could
happen, I feel until you die.

Ron (50:09):
I think people like I think we don't give enough, uh,
credit to people dying dancing,I don't think we give enough
credit to the power of belieflike if people believe a thing,
it's very hard for themsometimes I think to, to, to cut
out that belief if they're likethis.
like you said, you drew adifferent kind of connection, I
think, to the salem witch trials, but I feel like that's a

(50:29):
similar kind of thing, like,even if you are being accused of
being a witch, uh, that doesn'tmean you don't believe witches
don't exist, right?
You don't think you're a witch,but maybe aren't there
instances of people being likeoh wow, maybe I am a witch, like
and then adopting the personaRight.

Don (50:44):
Yes, there are recorded stories of that.
That was a self-defense rightyeah, right, it's a it's a way
to explain why you live in theforest by yourself with the
herbs.
It's uh, it was a a way toexplain your existence, but um,
but I think you're on tosomething, ron, because, um, we
do have um documentation ofother instances where groups of

(51:08):
people have believed somethingso firmly that that they just
start doing things, or or or,believing that like a cult is a
good.

Ron (51:17):
Yeah, yeah All of the cults .
Take your pick.

Don (51:24):
Right, um, do you guys have is there a word for it that you
, that you are familiar with,maybe the uh of like a um, a
belief in something that mightnot have a physical reason but
it manifests itself physicallybecause you believe it so firmly
?
Um?

Ron (51:41):
I want to you want.

Doug (51:43):
You want to have a word.
Can I manifest this word in mymind?

Ron (51:46):
I feel like you're gonna say it.
I'm gonna be like, oh yeah, ofcourse, but maybe that's also
just me trying to act like I'msmarter than I am.

Doug (51:52):
I think of what was often used against women for their
behavior to be hysterical.
Do you know what hysteria is?
I don't.
I know that it.
I just know that it was used atone point against one.
Like you're being hysterical,Therefore we need to treat you
in this way.
And that's the.
That's the word I was lookingfor.
You're being hysterical,therefore we need to treat you

(52:13):
in this way, and that's the.

Don (52:14):
That's the word I was looking for and I know
hysterical yeah, I want to.
I want to talk about hysteria,but one of the um and we'll come
back to hysteria, but one ofthe, the necessary components of
a mass hysteria, so so toconvince a group of people is
that there's a uh, increase ofstress and pressure on the local

(52:35):
society or the local culture.
Um, in 15, 18, um, we arecoming out of a recent bubonic
plague.
Yep, we are experiencingseveral different famines, so,
going back 20 years, but theyear 15, 18, especially, was a
bad famine poor harvest, highgrain prices, obviously money is

(52:59):
scarce, always, um, so we haveall of these things compounding
on top of each other and then wehave this plague breakout of
dancing, right, so, um, sothat's a possibility.
Is that, um, because of theincrease of of cultural pressure
, societal pressure, economicpressure, that people are like
primed to believe that there'ssomething?

Ron (53:20):
wrong.

Don (53:20):
Right.
Why are we having these famines?
And in 1518, what would be the,what would be the explanation?
Why is why are we being?
Why can't the crops grow?

Ron (53:28):
Why can't Okay, so you're saying is there sort of like, a
sort of like a, a doomermentality, an apocalyptic uh
mentality is?
Is there a connection here tothe medieval dance macabre, like
the artistry, the, the, theimages of dancing skeletons and
the idea that like death is ajoyful congratulatory sort of

(53:51):
exuberant presence.

Don (53:53):
I don't know that there's a direct connection to it, but
there always was this, um, thedesire to remember that death
was around the corner.
Yeah, right, but, um, but ifthe crops won't grow, what's the
reason in 1518?
Oh, cause the uh right?
Cause God hates us in 1518?

(54:13):
If it's, and why would god bemad at us?
Uh, because we've been, we'vestrayed exactly, and so the uh
if, and we don't know very muchabout this, but it's possible
that frau trefea went out anddid lose control of her body
because she firmly believed thatshe or the town were being

(54:33):
punished by St Vitus or you knowGod, through St Vitus, to uh to
do this, uh, this terriblething, as a penance for whatever
sin the town had had, you know,sunk into.

Ron (54:46):
Right, uh, that there's a lot of those kinds of cases
right Of individuals who oh,there's a term for them too.
Is it zealot?
Is it zealot?
the same thing right, or theyjust sort of like oh, I am not a
member of the clergy, but Ihave a very strong opinion about
the way things are going and Ineed to take action and lead a

(55:06):
movement of people to change theworld, or God is speaking
through me Right In specific,and in 1518, you wouldn't need
to be a zealot because everybodywould have that firmly held
belief.

Don (55:16):
Like now, we have a much larger diversity of beliefs in
1518.
There's there's less of that inWestern Europe.
So it's, um so people areprimed to believe whatever
they're told.
And if they're told that if yousin, st Vitus will punish you,
yeah, guess what happens whenthey realize that sin must be
happening Because you've got allthese other right we?
have no food, we have no moneywe have, we're all malnourished.

(55:40):
So we're like primed for thisbelief that we're ready to have
a plague, I guess, and we haveto dance till we die.
The conditions in which peoplesay it's the fall of the empire.
Yeah, but like you said, doug,like it's hard for me to imagine
believing something so firmlythat I would dance until I

(56:03):
literally dropped dead Right, ordo anything until I dropped
dead.

Ron (56:07):
Life is so poor, you know, and conditionally, yeah, I think
there's something to what youjust said about um, the, I guess
the paucity of belief systemsat the time right which?
is like when there is a veryhegemonic dominant belief system
, uh, the way that Catholicismority at large was in europe at

(56:29):
the time.
I think that's just.
I think that's usually what Ihave the hardest time, and why
I'm continually fascinated withthe medieval period is because I
think that's the thing that ina lot of ways, I don't think
we're that different from thosepeople, but that is the one
thing.
I think that it's like I have ahard time understanding or
setting myself in the shoes ofpeople at that time.
Is having such a dominant, uhuniversal belief system that uh

(56:50):
affects every moment of yourdaily existence Right and
universal culture.

Doug (56:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is just not something that has
been the case.

Ron (56:59):
It's not even like a 2020s thing, it's just like it hasn't
been the case, probably since Idon't know 1700s or something
right.

Don (57:06):
So, coming back to the word hysteria, though, because, doug
, you mentioned that it has anegative connotation- and it
does because it has historicallybeen used to describe ailments
specifically of females.
Do you know where the wordcomes from?
Do you have any etymologicalknowledge of the word hysteria?

Ron (57:26):
Yeah, there's a pre hysteria, which is the that's
when the dinosaurs Hysteria.

Doug (57:38):
I'll go out on a limb here and say it sounds like the name
of a God.
No.

Don (57:43):
Okay, good guess.
Thanks for playing.

Ron (57:45):
have a great day, everybody this has been the uncannery end
minus five points to duck.

Doug (57:49):
Yeah, wow you can only rise so high before you fall so
low.
You're about to drop thatpickle yeah, get back in the
court.
It's all right, it's lit up soI can see it at night hysteria
is the greek word for uterusright because the hyster I'm
feeling, so here's yeahhysterectomy is the removal of

(58:09):
uterus, so I'm feeling a littlebit better that at least I was
close with greek.
I mean, I was thinking like agreek god.

Ron (58:15):
Yeah I know, we know, yeah, minus 2.5 it's fine.

Don (58:20):
So, uh, first, uh, described by hippocrates, the uh
, the hippocratic oath guy, soanother famous physician, and
well, the famous physician, thefather of medicine, um, around
the fifth century bc, and hebelieved that his hysteria was a
specifically female disorderthat was caused by disturbances
of the uterus.

(58:41):
And he believed that the uteruswas an independent creature
that lived inside a woman's bodyand that hysteria would be
caused when it started to roamaround the body.
Uh, seeking moisture,apparently that happened to my
brother his uterus.

Ron (59:02):
I had a twin, and it was just he never came out.

Don (59:08):
So for Hippocrates, like the symptoms were like almost
anything, like almost anythingthat was wrong with a female, he
could define or or diagnosis ashysteria.
So suffocation, anxiety,fatigue, a sense of choking, all
of these were believed to becaused in women because their
uterus was was wandering around,wow.

(59:28):
And so how would you treat that?
You got to coax the uterus backto its home, yeah, so so the
leave a carrot kind of thing,Kind of like.
so the Hippocratic solution isto put sweet smelling herbs near
the female private parts andfoul smelling herbs up by the

(59:49):
mouth.
Oh, so that way, push it out.

Ron (59:51):
Yeah, smoke it out, exactly .

Don (59:53):
Get it back in its home.
How nice for the female.
It's for that reason that theword has this negative
connotation, because it was usedsince ancient Greek times all
the way through the 19th century, specifically to refer to any
mental concern that wasafflicting a female, and it was

(01:00:20):
believed to be a physicalailment all the way through the
19th century.
It wasn't until Freud gotaround, and Freud is the one who
recognized that it wasn't aphysical ailment, it was a
psychological one.

Doug (01:00:29):
Wow.

Don (01:00:30):
And uh, so he, um, he moved the medicine forward a little
bit.
And now today, hysteria is nota medical diagnosis, it's a.
It's what we use it in commonparlance to refer to any type of
of Praise.

Doug (01:00:42):
Yeah.

Don (01:00:42):
Like your emotion.
You're unable to regulate youremotions.
As we say, you're hysterical.
But again, it carries thatnegative connotation of being
attached to female elements.
So you're so.
For the most part, it's notwell used.
However, when you talk aboutgroups of people, we do still
sometimes use it as a way todescribe why a group of people

(01:01:06):
decides together to do masshysteria.
You've caused mass hysteria,Right.
So there's there's modernexamples of this, that that
exists.
So some people think, forexample, like alien abductions.
If one person reports thatthey've been abducted by an
alien, especially in a certainarea, or even alien sightings.

(01:01:28):
All of a sudden, there will bea cluster of those that occur
around the same, and they'realways similar right, You're
reporting on the same thing.

Ron (01:01:37):
You heard someone else report on right Right.

Don (01:01:46):
Um, and and probably in a broader sense, um, I don't know
if you guys know about, like inthe 1980s, 1990s there was a a
social panic in uh in the UnitedStates about the rise of
Satanism.

Ron (01:01:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's deeply tied to D and D.
Lore Right.
The history of it Satanic panic.

Don (01:02:02):
That's right, and it rooted in very few, like in a couple
survivor stories of you know,people who claim to have been
abducted by a satanic cult andthen escaped from them.
But based on just a few stories.
All of a sudden, more and moreexperiences were, you know,
imagined by the public and andeveryone had to be on guard
against you know, the, thiselusive Satanism that was was

(01:02:26):
rising.
There's even suggestion of uh,in a smaller sense that uh.
Have you ever heard of thephenomenon of a recovered memory
?

Ron (01:02:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's like uh, something you quote, unquote
experienced, but never knew youexperienced until someone puts
you.
Is it usually hypnosis orsomething like?

Don (01:02:42):
that.
So it's, yeah, there's.
There's several differenttechniques that guided imagery
or hypnosis, or or just um talktherapy, where a therapist can
help someone who has experienceda past trauma, sort of
resurface memory.
So the idea is that thosememories have been repressed.
Um, uh, the idea has beenposited by Elaine Showalter,
who's a famous literary criticand academic who's studied

(01:03:07):
hysteria, specifically that someof those recovered memories
people have recovered memoriesof abuse.
They've accused their parentsof abuse.
A parent actually went to jailand then it was discovered that
the memory that his daughter washaving was completely
fabricated and implanted.
And I don't know if it wasimplanted on purpose or even you

(01:03:28):
know.
It seems like it would be veryeasy to accidentally implant a
memory like that as well.
So if some were suggestible tothat, that would be on a much
smaller basis, not a masshysteria, but it's an idea that
you're implanting the belief insomebody and then it manifests
itself in the real world.

(01:03:49):
Right, yeah, can you guys thinkof any other occasions when
that has happened, like when afirmly held belief by an
individual or a group of peoplehas led to the manifestation of
physical outcomes?

Doug (01:04:09):
I think of, uh, cult-like behavior, like I think of
anybody's like leading a cult,and then there's like a mass, um
kind of physical response tospiritual awakening.
I would I would look at thatpotentially as hysteric behavior
.

Ron (01:04:25):
Yeah, who are the space faring?
Is it Heaven's Gate Spacefaring ones?
Heaven's Gate's the one withHale-Bopp yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
those are like you can.
I think this is to me also.
There's similar to the dancingplague.
It seems like there's an era ofthis kind of cult in america

(01:04:46):
that also dies out right, like Imean, I guess we just had the
um, there was the man nexion isthat what it was called?
There was like a recent cult,right or like, where there were
some famous celebrities who werecaught up in it and and this is
like four years ago orsomething, but it was like to me

(01:05:08):
, like the, the resurgence ofthis kind of very sort of
uniquely American cult, which isusually some sort of religious
figure, gathers people into acompound and they hang out and
they have beliefs that usuallyturn violent and it you know,
investigations reveal that thereis all sorts of layers and

(01:05:28):
layers of ritual abuse andexploitation by the cult leaders
of the people who are pulledinto this system, and those seem
to kind of start with, like theMarilyn Manson thing in the 60s
70s right, and then they kindof die Marilyn Manson is not the
60s 70s right, and then theykind of die Marilyn.

Don (01:05:45):
Manson is not the 60s, 70s Charles Manson.
Charles Manson, you know what I?

Ron (01:05:49):
mean.

Doug (01:05:51):
I'm vibing here.

Ron (01:05:51):
I'm vibing, I ain't into facts Going all the way up until
like the 90s and then, like thelast big one I can remember is
like Waco and then and I thinkNexeon again, and I can remember
it was like Waco and then and Ithink NXIVM again.

Don (01:06:05):
If I'm even getting this NXIVM I don't know if I'm
getting this.
It could be a mobile game after.

Ron (01:06:09):
Waco.
But oh yeah yeah, but againlike it's localized, but you're
bringing up some importantpoints.

Don (01:06:19):
So Showalter points out a few things about hysteria, and
one of the required componentsis an authority figure that is
sort of directing the, thebelief, and so in the case of
our dancing plague, 15, 18, thatwould be the church and the
belief that St Vitus is going tocurse you if you, if you sin,
um, in the case of the culture,bringing up right, it's
obviously the, the cult leader,um, but uh, but there's also,

(01:06:43):
you know, political beliefs Ifyou think about what we're
talking about like um, uh, andregardless of which side of of
the political spectrum you're on, like the, the way that our
leaders tell the stories andthat's another component show
Walter brings up is that therehas to be a narrative that is
attached to this.
this belief, it's not just abelief that comes out of nowhere
.
It's attached to a story about,usually, the political spectrum

(01:07:07):
.
It's the other side, right.
The other side is doing thisterrible thing.
Therefore, our response has tobe you know, firmly held and
firmly believed, and you knowthere's no compromise.
But in the case of the dancingplague of 1518, the same thing,
like the, the story is that ifyou don't do what saint vitus

(01:07:27):
wants, or if you don't do whatgod wants, that saint vitus will
curse you.
Like that, that story exists,which then, because we know that
sin exists, that it mustmanifest itself here and so then
the dancing starts right.
So okay.

Ron (01:07:40):
So we've got authority figure, we've got people who are
believing a narrative can haveyou know actual real world
behavior and it seems,importantly, there's no
requirement for like the actualfactual basis or like evidence,
right, it's just like a personin authority is believed because
obviously they are.

(01:08:00):
They got there for some reason,right.

Don (01:08:03):
Right?
And the physical evidence isactually self-produced, right?
So if if we say in St Vituswill punish us, well, look, I'm
dancing, right, I'm?

Ron (01:08:10):
being punished Right, so the look look, I'm punished
Right, exactly, Um.

Don (01:08:14):
And another component Showalter brings up is that
societal pressure and culturalpressure.
So, um again, if you think ofour, of politics, the way that
you encourage people to to, youknow, send $5 today is to
explain how terrible the storyis if the other side wins.
Yeah, yeah, right, so it'screating that panic of uh, you

(01:08:35):
know the sense of urgencybecause, uh, there's a um, uh,
uh.
It's not usually a famine inour case, but like a plague of.
You know, whatever the otherbelief is Right.

Ron (01:08:48):
And then cause no one.
No one's motivated by uh, itwould be nice to to to join this
club right there has to be asense of urgency.
There has to be a sense of, uhuh, existential threat.
Yeah, for sure.

Doug (01:09:02):
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend anybody like listen to it, but
just because I find it sodisturbing.
But I have listened to the uhwhat is it?
Jonestown tapes, like when theyare drinking the Kool-Aid, and
you can literally hear what heis saying.
You can hear, you know, kind ofpeople like crying out and
screaming and it, yeah, it'svery much follows that because
he was immediately who I wasthinking of.

(01:09:25):
Jim Jones, yes, jim Jones.
Initially when we said that,because he kind of has a lot of
those things, I didn't know whatthe physical response to be.
But literally, physically,knowing that you're going to
drink something that's going totake your own life, I mean, like
as a response, I think isenough to be considered
hysterical Right.
And I, yeah, that as a response, I think is enough to be
considered hysterical Right.
And I, um, yeah, that checksoff all of those boxes.

(01:09:48):
And so that's why I've alwaysfound that audio so disturbed.
Like that to me is one of themost disturbing, if not the most
disturbing piece of audio likeI've heard.
Um, just because you can hearcollectively that everybody is
on board.
And like, when I think ofhysterical behavior, I mean how
can you not, cause you'd want tosave anybody who's that

(01:10:10):
entrenched in it.
But again, people are on theIsland and you know it's like,
uh, sorry folks.
Like you know they got us.
So you know what you got to do.

Don (01:10:19):
If you want the, you know the, the eternal paradise,
paradise, you're gonna make thiscall, yeah I guess a piece of
good news is that these sort ofuh um mass hysterias can happen
without uh dire consequences.

Doug (01:10:34):
Um so uh, pokemon, I don't know, turn, turn, turn Ron into
a thief.
Sure did.

Ron (01:10:45):
My soul's never been clean since.

Don (01:10:48):
Ron, why are you dancing?
So the Beatlemania, for example, in the 1950s, would be an
example, but an interesting onethat I found when I was looking
into.
This occurred in 1962 inTanganyika, which is in africa,
was a german colony that wastaken over by the british after

(01:11:11):
world war one and they gotindependence.
They received theirindependence from the uk in 1961
, in december and in january1962, at a girl's school um,
there was a plague, uh, oflaughing, yeah.
So it started with three girlswho just couldn't wait, but did
it open.
No one died well, three girlscouldn't stop laughing.

(01:11:32):
Um, it started to spread totheir classmates.
It got so bad they had to closethe school.
Um, and apparently so theywould.
They would laugh uncontrollably.
Um, it seems like they wereable to.
They not able, but they didstop at some point.
Um, it seems like they wereable to.
They not able, but they didstop at some point, but then,
like, it would start up again.
It's spread throughout the town.
Um, several other villages andschools were affected in the

(01:11:53):
nearby area.
So it's again.
It's a local, like it.
It's almost like a contagion,but it's sort of housed.
I wonder how that would happentoday, cause, you know, our
ability to communicate is somuch faster today and
everybody's online like ifthey're, you know the killing
joke you know someone yeah, postit's too.

Ron (01:12:09):
It's too.
It's the uh entertainment frominfinite jest right.

Don (01:12:13):
It's too funny but it got so bad that they did have, um,
like some of them, they wouldfaint or they would have
respiratory problems becausethey were laughing so hard that
they were getting hypoxic.
Um, but the good news is nobodydied and it only lasted about
six months.
But can you imagine six months?
In living in a town where, likeschool, people were just

(01:12:33):
laughing, laughing yeah.

Ron (01:12:35):
So I do feel like I've been at the cusp of a near laughing
pandemic, Like when I was inschool.
Cause the, the the ability oflaughter to sort of infect, yes,
Infect people We've all beenthere, right Like.

Don (01:12:48):
I understand that that's pretty extreme, though, right, I
feel that way every time we gettogether.
Yeah.

Ron (01:12:55):
I just can't stop.
That's pretty good Can't stop,won't stop podcast and stop
asking us to.

Don (01:13:02):
And I sure hope that we are inspiring our listeners to be
hysterical for us.

Ron (01:13:08):
Yes.

Don (01:13:09):
And be our followers so well.
Thank you both for chattingabout the dancing plague of 1518
.

Ron (01:13:15):
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
I had no idea.
I've never wanted to dance more.

Don (01:13:18):
All right, well, here you go.
I've never wanted to dance lessReady to go, thank you.