Wrestling with Reality: Trust and Betrayal at the Montreal Screwjob

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WrestleMania weekend unfurled its tapestry of drama and spectacle, and I was right there in the thick of it, juggling my love for Baldur's Gate III with the real-life soap opera that is professional wrestling. The thrill of Cody Rhodes' championship saga, the electric atmosphere of the WWE's Super Bowl—if these stories set your heart racing, then you're in for a treat. As we reminisce about the seismic shifts from pay-per-view to streaming and how WrestleMania serendipitously aligns with Passover, we'll unpack the intricate narratives and theatricality that captivated us, just as it has legions of fans worldwide.

The heart of professional wrestling beats with the pulsing storylines that keep us on the edge of our seats—think Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, and the Montreal Screwjob that shook the foundations of the WWF. We'll traverse the emotional landscapes and backstage politics that define this unique form of entertainment, exploring the artistry and athleticism required to perform without pain, and the real-life loyalties and rivalries that could give Shakespeare a run for his money. If you've ever been curious about the interplay of scripting and spontaneity, the finesse of a Sharpshooter, or how wrestling storylines rival your favorite comic book arcs, step into our ring.

Our final act peels back the curtain on the business savvy and celebrity allure that fuel the wrestling world, from the star-making machinery of 'overness' to the decision-making drama of who drops the belt. We'll grapple with the legacy of giants like Bret Hart and The Undertaker, the weight of championship belts, and the respect that powers the personas in the squared circle. So, whether you're a die-hard wrestling enthusiast or just intrigued by the spectacle, join us for a candid conversation that captures the heart, the passion, and the undeniable humanity of professional wrestling.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Thank you.
Welcome, one and all, toanother episode of the Uncannery
.
I am Doug, I'm Ron, I'm Don,and we three will be delving
into the depths of discussiontoday, starting.
How did you both celebrate yourwrestlemania weekend?
Thank you so much for asking.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Um, I played two hours of balder's gate three,
okay, and uh probably got dinnerwith my wife, okay, and I
kissed her on the cheek and wewent to bed that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Don you see me equally as enthused.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah, um, when was when?
What?
When was russell fantastic?

Speaker 1 (01:09):
so we've obviously got two big time wrestling fans
in here, so I hope that I'm notstopped in my tracks.
Um, we are currentlycelebrating the era of cody
rhodes being champion.
Um, one of the longestnarratives and some people
saying that it's the greatestWrestleMania of all time.
I I maybe I beg to differ, butwow, I mean it's.
It's a time where wrestling hasreally hit an uptick in terms

(01:32):
of its writing and story, andit's very, very exciting with
the exception, especially inthis room.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
I mean, there's at least one of us who knows what
the hell you're talking about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
This, so the the energy is suffocating but um
wrestlemania is like the superbowl of oh the wwe right oh yeah
, we yeah very much, so it's nowa two-day event is it always
the same part of the calendaryear?

Speaker 1 (01:58):
yep yep, absolutely, yeah, yeah, wrestling, uh, pro
wrestling kind of centers around.
There are a few weekly specialsthat you're watching that are
traveling to different citiesthat are building to big excuse
me, storylines in a pay-per-viewevents, essentially.
And that's where these thingshappen, which is hilarious,
because we're in an era now thatthere's like pay-per-view,

(02:21):
doesn't like, do you streamPeacock?
Well, in that case, you canwatch WrestleMania.
So it's a lot cheaper than itwas back in the day.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
And does WrestleMania always occur around Passover?
Or yeah, is that?

Speaker 1 (02:34):
intentional.
We remember, we remember and wecelebrate at the same time.
That's it.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Men will always struggle.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
that's it men will always struggle all right, so
there's going to be somequalifiers that we'll need to
get into.
Um, gentlemen, it is your jobtoday to very much rein me in
when I start going way too offthe rails of how excited I am
and you go.
What's the royal rumble?
What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (03:01):
I don't like reigning you, and I love it when you
just are going full steam.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
I really appreciate it, but I don't want to just
access pro wrestling fans todayand be with them.
I want to be with everybodybecause we're talking about a
very important event Today weare talking about the infamous
Montreal Screwjob is what it isknown as.

(03:26):
The newspaper headlines at thetime.
Right as such, it sounds dirty.
It sure does, sure does.
Or it sounds like a drink likeyou could pick uh, most
wrestling sounds dirty though,right.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, it just sounds uh sort of grimy sweaty much, so
very much, yeah like they'vecultivated this image, I think
am I is that why I like it?

Speaker 1 (03:46):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
I just learned something new about doug that I
never wanted to know I'm a grimeboy oh, of all the things I've
been called, maybe my, myfavorite.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
So I just want to say real quick like uh, I don't
know a lot about wrestling, okay, um, but I've always wanted to
like I feel like.
I've been uh like clinging tothe chain link fence, looking
from the outside Like I want toknow what the fuss is.
I wish I could like that.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
So I'm I'm really excited cause I want to learn.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
I'm glad you're here to share with me, because I find
all of this very interesting,but I've never really been able
to to like sit down and watch awrestling match.
Okay, well, we'll, we'llrectify that in the next few
weeks, but, um, yeah, it'sbeautiful.
Insanity is really what it is.
It's uh, it's um.
I think pro wrestling at itsbase is a place in which people
engage in a storyline that isconstructed around sports

(04:53):
entertainment fighting andsports entertainment and there
are moves and submissions andpinholds and throws and slams
and jumps and leaps.
There's a gigantic roster ofmoves and signature moves that
kind of are attached to thesepeople that are almost to the

(05:13):
heights of, like comic bookcharacters in which, like, they
have a persona, they have adistinct ability, they have
strengths, they have weaknesses,and you get to see it play out
live in a ring instead of in theimaginations of a moviegoer, a
reader.
You're watching this happenwith athletes that just give it

(05:34):
their all do you?

Speaker 3 (05:35):
though really here he is.
You watch it play out live.
They know how it ends before itstarts, but nothing's playing
out.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Okay, so Don is on the tip that we're going to look
at.
Okay, if if we haven'tdiscussed this.
Yes, wrestling pro wrestling,and I want to make sure that we
understand I am not talkingabout Olympic wrestling,
freestyle wrestling, folk stylewrestling.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Folk style Absolutely Can I get into folk style
wrestling.
I think, folk style, absolutelycan I get into folk style
wrestling, absolutely, we will Iwear overalls banjo for an
extra subscription to ourpodcast.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
You can watch us, ron and doug folk style wrestle.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
I'm a.
I'm a folk style wrestle thatthey're alligator.
And now you're a grime boy.
I'm a slime boy.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Whatever kind of boy you want.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
We're all of them here.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
We got to find Don's boy Don is a negative Nancy boy,
so he doesn't like prowrestling, and I understand.
This is the biggest argument.
It's fake.
It is pre-organized matches.
There's a storyline that'sgoing on.
There is arrangements betweenthe wrestlers of who is going to
win and lose the match and um,this is what leads people away

(06:51):
from it a lot of the time,because you're watching um, two
opponents wrestle each other inthe ring.
Sometimes it's tag team matches, there might be four.
Sometimes it's the royal rumblein which dozens of wrestlers
are entering the ring andfighting and trying to throw
each other out.
What makes it Royal?
Great question oh actually thatis a great question, like I'm

(07:12):
wondering if, like the the Kingwrestlers come right, because
there have been very Royalwrestlers like Jerry the King
Lawler.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
There have been, and so I'm wondering if the original
event had something to do withthat.
But it was.
Yeah, that is a specific typeof match in which wrestlers are
thrown over the top ropes so youdon't, you're not pinned or
submitted or you give up or youknow somebody, somebody's
knocked out.
It's nothing like that.
It's just if you simply go overthe top ropes of the ring and
your feet touch the floor, youare eliminated from the Royal

(07:46):
rumble.
And that format is, to me, somuch fun to watch because there
are times when there are 16 to24 people in the ring just going
haywire and you see kind of howit plays out.
But the Royal rumble issignificant that whoever wins it
gets an opportunity to umwrestle for the belt at
WrestleMania.

(08:07):
So it's a lead up event.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Which, to Don's point , is fake.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
But glorious.
Listen, don't you?
I mean, think about this for asecond.
Isn't that why we go to themovies?
When you listen to I don't knowa great album that takes you
somewhere else, when lyrics areyou, are you the type of person
if somebody didn't experience itand they wrote a book about it,
then it can't be authentic?

(08:35):
Do you think, when you'rewatching a movie, that they all
have to be realistic?
Isn't the fantastical somethingto be admired?

Speaker 2 (08:43):
this is like the direits song, where he imagines
that he's a furniture andappliance mover.
You guys know what I'm talkingabout.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
Money for nothing.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
It stings on that.
Sting features on that track.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Anyway, yeah, he's pretending to be no.
That song kills.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
I don't need Mr Dire.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Straits to have actually worked at Best Buy.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, very much so.
The difference for me, though,is, when you go and you watch
the movie, it proclaims itselfas not true, and wrestling
doesn't do that.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
I would argue it does .
Now I think that there's a verydistinct so the WWE currently,
when you turn it on, you'll seePaul Triple H Levesque, who is
the owner of and they call himthe creative control of the WWE
universe.
This is how they refer to it.

(09:40):
They are making it very clearthat it is a universe that they
are creating for you, and it'sin those moments of seeing how
they construct these storylinesI think the people, at least
that I talked to, that also loveit so much.
They are fascinated in the waysthat things go.
They're heartbroken that it washis time for the belt.

(10:00):
How could this possibly happen?
The guy I mentioned right now,Cody Rhodes, has, um, he's come
out with so many differentpersonas over his career.
I think, like he's up to, thisis either his fifth or sixth
personas.
The, the American nightmare,Cody Rhodes.
Like he's tried so manydifferent, it's very
intimidating.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, he's the he's the man.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Um, there are so many personas that he's tried that
have just miserably failed thatthe crowd just didn't enjoy him.
He would be cut from rosters.
He's gone to AEW, he's got theother wrestling organizations
and finally came back andfinally he's found it.
And he comes from a wrestlingfamily where his father didn't
get it.
But he finally got the belt andwe were all waiting for it and

(10:39):
they just built it up so wellagainst the enemies who wanted
to take it away from him.
And it's it's incredible andit's it's interesting, even
looking at the clip.
So it's, it's funny.
Obviously, the people who arein there know what's going to
happen, but Samantha Irving, whois the announcer for, like, she
announces who comes into thering and winners of the matches
you can hear.

(11:00):
I mean she's like she's cryingas she's announcing that Cody's
won, because it's even for herknowing what the story is, it's
it, it's so emotionally movingfor her to watch somebody who's
given their life to this craftfinally achieve this glory and
become part of the story.
It's even his tagline right now.
Is he finished the story?

(11:20):
It sounds like a soap opera.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, but it's the best soap opera you can watch.
But, um, so as not, uh, somesomeone who never really watched
a soap opera did the so becauseI know people got very involved
in them.
Did the soap operas have anelement where people were very
tied to the actors as peoplelike?
Because this sounds to me likethere's the.
There's the story of cody rhodeswins a fake belt and we're
happy, but it sounds like thereason that's significant is for

(11:46):
real reasons, about who CodyRhodes as a real human is.
Like you said, he's put histime into the industry, he has
lineage Right and so like.
While we might want to see CodyRhodes the character win
because we like him he's mySpider-Man but I also just want
to see the guy playingspider-man win because what a
cool, nice guy was that part ofsoaps well, but does it matter

(12:10):
to you whether it's andrewgarfield or toby mcguire or?

Speaker 1 (12:13):
yes, it has to be toby the fact that tom holland
was in really upset.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
But I think so, to answer your question, and I
don't.
I, I experience soaps a secondhand.
They are a thing that, uh, thatplays in my house and did play
in my house when I look like abig dallas guy you got dallas
energy.
I, I was too young to watchdallas.
When dallas was on, I would, Iwould, I would, I would, uh, I

(12:42):
would accidentally see itsometimes.
But, um, but it is about thecharacters, and then the thing
with a soap that I rememberfrequently would be that the
actors change and the charactersdon't, and so it is about watch
.
You know when is that charactergoing to to, you know, hook up
with the other character, orfinally reach their dream, or,

(13:03):
you know, kill their nemesis, or, and so sometimes it's about
finding the right actor to takethe role, and then you know
nobody likes the new AJ and youwant the old AJ back, or
whatever.
But it's it.
It sometimes is about the actortoo, because there's I don't
know his name, there's an actorthat came over on general
hospital from days of our livesthat like same thing.

(13:26):
It's been one actor and he'splayed, I think, three different
roles and they're just tryingto find the one that like that
vibes, I guess, or Yep, yeah,absolutely yeah.
I think that there is something,but again, they don't say this
is really a hospital and theseare real surgeries that we're
pretending to perform.
They say it's fake from theoutset.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
But I wish I had prepared a little bit, because I
feel like we're getting to likethe theories of fiction and how
fiction operates in the brain,right?
Yes, my grandmother watchingGeneral Hospital knows that this
is not a real hospital, butwhile she's watching it, while

(14:10):
she's invested in thosecharacters, does that matter?
It?
May it, may it not as well havebeen a real hospital?

Speaker 3 (14:17):
well, you know, because if she like what?
If she thought it was a realhospital and thinks that the
only thing that you have to dois like surgery takes four
minutes and you know, then youcan, you know, cure cancer.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Once the show ends and the spell is lifted.
She knows that right.
She knows all the actualhospital sucks.
Are you using the?

Speaker 3 (14:35):
argument but then that's the thing is that the
spell doesn't lift with withwrestling because it carries
over.
There's no moment where wherethey carries over.
There's no moment where wherethey, the wrestlers, say oh okay
, we're.
You know they get to go out ona date with taylor, swift or
whatever, and it's not their,it's not their character anymore
.
It's the actor playing thecharacter.
They are always the character,even outside of the ring there's

(14:57):
a concept that right am I wrong?

Speaker 1 (14:59):
yeah, it's like I almost think that we're getting
into the logic.
You haven't quite gotten thisbad yet.
But it's like in the logic oflike if you just body slam your
way, you got a body slam yourway through your problems, just
dip into a slim gym and yeah getin there and body, slam your
teachers and then you'll be ableto.
You know, like I don't think itgets to that level and I can

(15:21):
even attest because I got intopro wrestling when I I think
that I was nine or ten, I think,and I started watching in the
what was called the attitude eraof wwf.
It started getting a little bitmore racy and wild and it
embraced the trash tv elementand like we're bringing um, you

(15:42):
know, yeah, stone cold, ste,stone Cold, steve Austin, the
Rock, um, one of my favoritesMankind, the Undertaker, was
still around.
He had just been an absolutestaple, these kind of absolutely
absurd characters, and even asa kid I you knew like the
Undertaker Is that characterKane?
Kane is Undertaker's brother.
Look at you.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
Okay, nevermind, don's a pro wrestling fan.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Now I'm happy.
All right, that's it.
So I never really took it thatway, but you've set me up kind
of perfectly.
The thing that we're going totalk about today with this screw
job is this was a plot lineover a wrestler that I hold very
, very dear to my heart, the oneand only Brett Hulk Hogan.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
And that's all for today.
I hope you guys enjoyed thepodcast.
He's not a real american hedoes.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
Okay.
I wish we had that queued up.
The uh, the hulkster theme song.
That was good.
So uh, yeah, oh god, I, I'm nota gigantic hulk, hulk hogan
fans well, you're not.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
He destroyed, uh, journalism in america.
What don't you like?

Speaker 1 (16:56):
it was, uh, it was his era.
Uh, it's funny he kind ofdefines like what modern pro
wrestling is.
But I just um yeah his.
His gimmick is not my favoriteum my.
So the story that I'm talkingabout today is brett the hitman
hart.
Um he um was involved in astoryline, as I uh said earlier,

(17:17):
called the montreal screw job,in which he believed, going into
that ring, that he understoodwhat the um conditions were
going to be as he was about todrop his belt to Shawn Michaels
at the Montreal Survivor Seriesbefore he transferred over from
the at the time named WWF to theWCW, and he was screwed over by

(17:39):
his boss, vince McMahon, andthis was a real thing that
happened to Bret Hart.
This is a real moment in whichhe expected something to happen
and the opposite did, and Ithink that that's why this
moment is so significant.
So there's a few things beforewe start is one is I've already

(18:00):
started throwing out some termsthat I want to be clear about
before I get into theorganization that we're talking
about today.
The WWE was once called the WWF, and my memory is they got sued
by the animal people.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Is that right?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
They came after them and they had to change their
name and so I'm going tohopefully I do a good job of
like being consistent.
But wwe and wwf are kind ofused interchangeably because in
this era that I'm talking aboutit was called the wwf but it is
currently called the w what erais this?
what years are we talking um?

(18:37):
We're gonna start.
It's basically 1992 to 1997.
We're looking at the mid 90s,um here, um, it's the wwf at
this time.
But this is going to get alittle more confusing because we
had a rival company that at onepoint looked like they could
potentially outdo the wwf, andthis was the disney.
Uh, certainly could have been.

(19:00):
I'll tell you if disney tookover.
Oh wow, I mean, that would bebob eiger.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, mcmahon, what's the difference?

Speaker 3 (19:07):
I would watch mulan body slam cinderella.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
I agreed I can show you as well, so this is gonna
get a little more confusing.
It's not disney, it is the wcw,the world championship
wrestling uh organization.
This is um.
They are the rival company atthe time and there's there's
many.
It's not Disney, it is the WCW,the world championship
wrestling uh organization.
This is um.
They are the rival company atthe time and there's there's
many pieces of lore that aregoing to go to that the?

(19:32):
Uh.
I brought up Brett the hit manheart.
He had a rival named theheartbreak kid, sean Michaels.
You're going to hear his namecome up a lot.
Um, you're going to hear aboutVince McMahon, ownerwe, and eric
bischoff, owner of wcw.
That's where the cookies on theairplane come from yeah that

(19:53):
would be interesting,accompanied by that body slam
you're talking about.
That's it?
Um, how, uh?
Another thing that's importantdo we understand the concept of
a, a signature move that awrestler has, or a finisher?
It's sometimes called, I thinkI got, yeah, the.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
It's like a theatrical, performative, cool
move, something that you couldprobably I'm assuming you can
like.
Uh, it has like stages so thatan audience can be like, oh my
gosh, he's about to do the yepflying dutchman or whatever that
would ron, that woulddefinitely be, your move.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
I could see that.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
But yeah, it's a signature move in which usually
signals this match is about tobe over.
They've done this slam or thissubmission hold or this to the
like.
That's it.
And yeah, bret Hart's is calledthe Sharpshooter and it does
have to do with our story.
It's a submission hold.
That's one of my favorite movesof all time.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
How, how based in reality are these moves Like?
Are they mutations on actualhistorical wrestling styles or
something?

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Probably we'll find ourselves in a podcast where I
talk about catches, catch canwrestling, which is where all of
this comes from.
Um, and it relates to jujitsuas well, which, you know, I'm a
practitioner and big fan of.
Um, yeah, there was.
Uh.
Basically it comes fromsubmission wrestling, which the
idea was you use traditionalwrestling pins but also try to

(21:15):
submit your opponent withincredibly painful um joint
locks and neck holds and thingslike that.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Like twisting their elbow behind their back.
That sounds like neck holds andthings like that, like twisting
their elbow behind their backlike so much fun why don't?

Speaker 1 (21:27):
why don't more people do this?
You'd be amazed.
It's such a good time, uh.
But yeah, it originated in umchallenges that essentially
would be put out of like ifanybody thinks they can wrestle
the great bandini, come up and,for ten dollars, get your chance
, and they would just submiteverybody in the crowd, make
them say uncle and go from there, and that, yeah, that lineage
eventually leads to thespectacle that is pro wrestling

(21:49):
today.
And then are we familiar withpro wrestling, just the rules of
a traditional match being thatyou can pin your opponent and
the wrestler slaps the mat threetimes, indicating they've been
held down for three seconds,instead of the traditional one
fall.
That's in Olympic wrestling.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
That sounds, yeah, I'd say a guy on the mat
slapping it is a thing I've seen.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
And we're counting three and once you get to that
three, you win the match.
You can also lose if somebodytaps out and submits.
You can also lose bydisqualification.
Maybe there's somebody whointerferes with your match or
you use a weapon Like somebodytakes out a chair and like hit
somebody.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
You can't use the chairs.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Can't use the chairs.
It's unless it is a weaponsmatch.
If it's declared a a weaponsmatch, then you can.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
So I'm going to assume.
Sometimes these matches theyget a little wild.
Oh yeah, I'm going to.
I'm assuming, sometimes youthink.
I'm starting to put the piecestogether.
I'm thinking sometimes it's notabout who wins oh yeah.
Sometimes it's about who getsmad and hits them with a chair
oh yeah absolutely, and so a lotof the drama plays out in that.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Um, that's kind of.
I just want to make sure thatwe went over that, because if
I'm going through and I'm like,and now he's in the submission
hold the dq bell rings andpeople are like what are you
talking about?

Speaker 3 (23:11):
I just I wanted to make sure we cleared that up.
Um, are we ready?
Yeah, that's totally clear.
I can see it now.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Oh, I'm ready.
Doug, I'm here.
I'm sorry that we'll see whatdon woke up on the wrong side of
the wrestle mat, but he got putin a submission hole called the
cranky.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
That's all I know.
All right, so let's start withBret Hart.
So, bret the Hitman Hart, as ayoung lad he is, his father was
a professional wrestler.
They grew up very poor.
They're looking at a situationin which he's being um.

(23:47):
His family is like encouragedto go into wrestling because
it's a business trade that hisdad knows, and stew hart is
legendary for training wrestlers.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
The garage, or the uh , the basement of his house is
dedicated to training wrestlersand giving them and this is this
is his real biography, or thisis his real, his story biography
to give him a background in thewcw universe real.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
I think it's super cool that you can ask that and
it's a legitimate question.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, that's really and this is so.
This is the cool part.
So in the, uh, and we'vealready messed it up, yeah, so
this is the cool part.
So in the and we've alreadymessed it up.
Yeah, so this is the WWE, wwfuniverse.
I think, sorry, wrong universe,too many W's out here, okay.
So yeah, we're looking at.
This is the real life story andthis is the thing that I love

(24:36):
about Bret Hart and I think it'swhy he resonates.
His life story is who he is.
It really is.
His story is his biography.
Um, so they have this legendaryfather who trains wrestlers.
He grows up around this.
For a long time Didn't want tobe a wrestler, but as time went
on, went, let's go for it.

(24:58):
Let's do this.
Um, he starts off as a part ofa tag team with people like
cousins in his family, and hegoes on to.
He's very much acclaimed, ifnot the best.
He's almost always heralded inthe top five greatest technical
professional wrestlers of alltime.
Don would say this is hogwash,because there's no such thing as

(25:22):
being technical in wrestling,but it is really important,
considering that these guysoften work 300 to 340 days a
year.
You're looking at, injury isgoing to wipe you out, and so
people on the roster need tostay healthy enough to go out
and put on a show every night.
And so there are very technicalways that you need to take a
fall, bounce off the ropes, jumpoff the ropes.

(25:42):
Land moves on people, even asimple clothesline, which is you
bounce off the ropes, you takeyour arm out to the side and you
club somebody and they getknocked down to the mat.
That's done by your pectoralmuscle making contact before
your arm does, so youessentially run into the
person's body, but it telegraphsto the audience that you've hit
them with the side of your arm,and so you can usually look at
a wrestler who's not very good,and they're literally clubbing

(26:05):
people and hitting the ground.
Um, but Brett was known asbeing um, somebody who never
hurt anybody in the ring.
That's one of his greatest umreputations is he was just great
at what he did.
Um, his signature move.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
So he's.
He's great at not not hurtingpeople, but the goal is to get
people to submit by pain,correct?
Sounds like he's just a.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
He's a bad wrestler is what you just described I am
uh personally offended, uh atthis point, but in the honor of
our listeners that are patientlywaiting, uh, yeah, he is trying
to make it look like there'stremendous pain going on Because
, again, a lot of the moves.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Oh, that's right, Because all the pain's fake I
forgot.
Okay, I'm with you now, I'mgood, but there's a skill in
selling pain right.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Like I don't know if I could do it that well.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
If I'm being honest, if you it that.
Well, if I'm being honest, ifyou allow me to be a little
honest, there's a I might not bea good wrestler.
There's a fantastic youtubevideo that you should check out,
um of a guy who's training prowrestling and one of the things
that's tough is like a lot ofthe moves do hurt real bad um,
and it's just about dispersingthe pain.
Like, for example, if you arebody slammed, what you're
trained to do is basicallydisperse the impact through like

(27:24):
as much of your body aspossible so it isn't as painful
for you.
But there's this great videoonline you can watch a guy who's
like learning to take bodyslams.
They're kind of training himand then the guy kind of
surprises him.
He's like, oh, that'severything.
And he's like, okay, I thinkI'm ready.
And he's like, all, right up,you go, picks him up and slams
him.
The guy goes he's just sofurious that it happened to him

(27:48):
and he's like I'm okay, but Ihated that.
It still hurt um.
So, yeah, it's, there'sconditioning that happens.
It's definitely a trade inskill.
Um, that's there.
But serious injury like tendonsnapping, broken bones, going
out, concussions, these thingsthat like would take somebody
off of the roster and give youthe opportunity.
That's what he's great at.
So his signature move thesharpshooter.

(28:09):
What a move.
It involves crossing youropponent's legs around one of
yours, flipping them to theirback, holding their ankles
sitting towards their back andbasically putting a pressure on
their legs and spine so you'recontorting their body into a
position that is souncomfortable that they simply
must submit.

(28:29):
And there was real art in theway that he did it to make sure
that he wasn't injuring hisopponent.
Technically it's a variation ofa move called a Boston Crab, in
which you can literally breaksomebody's back.
Like, if you fall down and siton somebody's back the wrong way
, you can break their back withit.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
So it's a variation on that, but he did it in such a
way that, yeah, didn't causehis opponent any pain, which is
good news.
That would be very cool to bethe guy who's the best at doing
that and not hurting people.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, and I mean he's selling the moves.
Moves, I mean everybody looksgreat, uh, like who's in the
ring with him.
He would make them look like hewas great at selling other
people's moves to make them looklike he's going through the
most amount of pain possible.
And then he moved.
He's hitting on somebody elseagain.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
It looks incredibly athletic is it like the inverse
of ballet, where ballet is a, anart form, where the performers
are in tremendous pain theentire time, but they have to
look like they're not?
Am I right here?
It might be pro wrestling.
Can you start telling me aboutballet?
Absolutely, so let's go to thechannel let's go to the bullsh**

(29:38):
.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
Let's start with the bullsh**.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Bret hart was the greatest bullsh**.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Uh dancer I think all of this is bullshit.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Okay, Listen to Don Listen.
If you're a pro wrestling fanor ballet fan, please write in.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
No, this is good.
This is engagement.
We're going to get a bunch ofangry emails.
Comment down below.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
So, okay, there's your background on Brett Hart.
So before this era.
So this is again.
We're going to be talking about1992 to 1997.
This is a big era for Bret Hart.
Before that, okay, if we'relooking pre-90s, we've said his
name already.
Who are you thinking about whenI say pro wrestling, hulk, hulk

(30:18):
A mania baby, every day, everynight.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
You know what brother ?

Speaker 1 (30:22):
And he's coming out of the woodwork to tell you
about it.
Right, he is an American icon.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
He's in my movies.
I'm a child, I don't know whohe is, but he's in my movies
Couldn't be more mustached up.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
and he's coming after you.
That's right.
In this era, there is a majorhouse cleaning in the WWF
because steroid use ooh bigno-no.
We do not want to be looking atpeople who are using drugs to
become the monsters.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
This is a kid's show.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
This is.
It didn't really.
If much of these guys justdestroy each other, this is for
the kids, like, teach them howto body slam each other, don't
teach them to inject steroids,that's right.
So, um, this actually causes abig house cleaning of wrestlers,
um, and I'd like to shout outcultaholic wrestling.
For so much of this informationbecause, um, I was trying to

(31:15):
piece things together and Ithink that they have the best
story on this screw job and so alot of this I pieced together.
So thank you.
Their biggest talent at the timewas probably Bret Hart and
Shawn Michaels.
These are the rivals we'regoing to talk about, which kind
of pulled them away from thespotlight at the time because
they weren't quite as big.

(31:35):
Now, there probably was somesteroid use with them too, but
they just weren't as giant assome of the wrestlers on their
roster, so they stuck around.
To give you an idea, 44 of themen who were scheduled to rumble
at the Royal Rumble that wetalked about earlier, by the
time that it's 1997 SurvivorSeries where the screwjob

(31:57):
happened, there were only fourof them left, and many of them
let go because the image wastrending towards.
We can't have these giants inthe ring at the time.
So a lot of the success of bothBrett and Sean at the time is
because we're transitioning tothis new, more and actually
truthfully friendly, friendlygeneration, called the new

(32:18):
generation or the new generation.
Before we go into the attitudeera that I grew up with, did
they take that from Prince?
That would be an interestingquestion.
I wonder if that's the case.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I wish he was here to ask,absolutely, I just wish he was
here.
I'll say that.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah, he's the man man.
So, um, eric bischoff, this,this person that I referred to,
creates this competitor on tnt.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
remember old ted turner yeah, what happened to
him?

Speaker 1 (32:47):
he's still out there ted turner shout out wherever
you're at, we love you.
Gap us up ted he creates hiscompetitor wcw, and guess who?
Uh is one of the biggest namesthat he signs, especially as

(33:07):
this new generation starts, wait, does whole come back?

Speaker 2 (33:10):
oh yeah, oh, I didn't know that wcw signs hulk mania
to um there.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
So anybody who's missing the old era as the new
generation is starting up.
Eric Bischoff capitalizes onthis.
He's like we're going to signHulk cause he's just been
released from the WWF.
Let's take him in and let's gofrom here.
Takes him in.
They do an amazing thing againwith storyline, where they
transition into him.
Hulk, for the first time ever,becomes the bad guy.

(33:38):
Hollywood, hollywood, hogan,yeah, and it's.
It's absolutely insane so hewent to hollywood he got
corrupted.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Now he's a bad guy, that's.
That's the big thing all thetime.
And he had this like it's rightit was such.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
It was such an insane storyline.
He starts just fermenting hisbeard like very dark, like he
left the mustache bleach blonde,but then he starts just
fermenting his beard like verydark, like he left the mustache
bleach blonde, but then he'sjust fermenting the rest of it.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Oh yes, I've seen this Hulk this is this era.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
He's part of this group called the New World Order
and it's most of the guys thatare being offloaded from the WWF
and that was the whole gimmick.
It's like we got Hulk he's abad guy check us out, like that
was their thing.
Um, it's just.
They really they had greatmatches.
They just really struggled withstorylines.
It was just.
It was garbage a lot of thetime in terms of like what they
were trying to build withstories.

(34:25):
But some of my favorite matchesever like they they were part
of wcw, can you tell us realquick what makes a great
wrestling storyline?
oh, that's a whole notherpodcast.
I don't know if I can get into,but I can give you that the
basics are.
It's the same thing as anymovie you watch, right like when
you get that character that youlove that changes and in some

(34:47):
way, or they get their moment oryou see something that happens.
These are like the big moments,that in which, like, you've
been following the story andthey do something that it kind
of resonates with you.
These are the big things thathappen.
Or a character goes away for awhile and then they show back up
, like maybe they're off theroster.
They come back and they allywith characters that you love.
So I would equate it again.

(35:08):
I go back to comic books, whereyou're going, they're back.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
I can't believe it, this person's doing this.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Like I mean to give you an example.
Recently in wrestlemania therock came back as a very bad guy
, very bad guy.
This is an old play.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Now, though, they're just doing the whole thing.
It's a hollywood rock,hollywood rock oh my gosh, which
fraggle rock.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, I don't even think yeah, which is great
because he's got a wig and it'sall so one of you needs to do
Fraggle Rock for one of thesepodcasts I don't know how, dig
up some dirt, so it's uncanny,but I need it.
But yeah, there's a big shift toyeah the rock right now, yeah,
going towards that, and eventhough that's a tale as old as

(35:52):
time maybe, of like now he's badguy, it's really fun to see a
guy who's literally been inHollywood, right Like, doing all
these movies, and comes back.
He's like I'm part owner ofthis company and he just he
didn't want Cody to have thebelt.
He's like he doesn't deservethe belt, like we're going to
keep it with.
At the time his name is RomanReigns, uh, and he allied with
him and it's just it's fun.
It's really fun to see likepeople come back and and which

(36:22):
way it goes.
So, uh, wcw competitor, right,so why am I bringing this up?
Brett's gonna get tangled inthis mess at the time.
So, um, several wrestlers jumpship with bischoff's generous
contracts.
Bischoff at the time isactually offering wrestlers way
more money than vince mcmahon is.
Over at um wwf they're notdoing as well.
Um, brett learns that a guynamed diesel uh in wcw he takes

(36:42):
on his actual name, kevin nashuh, is making more than brett
has with three title runs, likethree consecutive times that
he's won the belt and been atthe top and usually if you're at
the top of the mountain whichis also another macho man quote,
uh, top of the mountain, whichis also another macho man quote,
uh, he, he, yeah, diesel'smaking more money than he has

(37:04):
with like the best position tosell merchandise everything else
that he is.
So during the timeline wediscuss from here on out, our
man, brett, is offered atremendous amount to switch
teams.
He is offered a tremendous.
At one point brett says justpay me one penny more than what
hulk makes and I'll take youroffer.

(37:25):
Like that's one of the thingsthat comes out.
And brett actually really wantsto stay loyal to wwf.
Vince gave him a chance when,um he bought out the group that
Stu was a part of his father andhe actually wants to stay loyal
to the company.
And so he brings the amountthat he was going to get from
WCW to Vince and he actuallystays in the WWF, even though

(37:48):
Vince tells him I can't give youthat, but we can bump you in
these areas.
He's goes like we can do thiscontract.
So he doesn't take the offer atWCW.
Vince offers him more and more,but not as much, and he says
but I'll stay loyal to the brandand this is why, when we get to
this, uh, this Montreal screwjob, it makes it all the more
contentious.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
Thank God he wasn't a member of Gen Z.
They jumped at jobs like fleasfrom dogs.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, that's what they said about the millennials
too, okay.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
It's going to be Jen-O.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
it's getting worse, like at a certain point that's
like they don't even exist.
Ghost generation yeah, allright.
So brought up Bret Hart, hisrival Shawn Michaels.
So Shawn Michaels also great,the Heartbreaker Kid, great
wrestler out of San Antonio,texas.

(38:41):
I also love him.
But Bret and Michaels alwayskind of had a contentious
relationship.
They were always vying for thattop spot Like who's the best
wrestler in the WWF and Bret,but the answer is neither of
them.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
I'm glad he brings this up, because actually I've
been.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
I'm actually struggling with this issue also
tell me what's wrong?

Speaker 2 (39:07):
okay, so you made it sound like there is a hierarchy
of wrestlers.
There is okay you said, somewrestlers get paid more than
others they sure do and so itsounds like that the wrestlers
who win the belt are the oneswho get paid the most oh yeah,
there is a financial incentiveto be the winner and you are.

(39:27):
You're chosen, yes, and you'rechosen right.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
So there's no winner.
You're not winning anythingjust because the story says you,
you walk away with the belt.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
You didn't win it, but you do but surely in my mind
, the people who win the beltI'm assuming there is some
justice in this world and theyactually are the better
wrestlers.
Am I wrong?

Speaker 1 (39:49):
is that impossible.
There have been times it isalmost 100 has to do with the
amount that they are over withthe crowd and what that means is
this is a term that's used inprofessional wrestling of like.
There is a time in which awrestler is building themselves
up through their matches andpersona and time on the mic
where they're calling out otherwrestlers and saying how great

(40:11):
they are, whatever, whateverstrategy they use to build their
character.
There's a moment in which theygo over where, like, the
audience just starts to lose it.
When they come out, thecharisma has been built to a
point that everybody wants tosee them and you'll see even on
rosters when you're looking atactive rosters, there's certain
groups of people that you'rekind of seeing.
The same wrestlers come outbecause that's what the crowd

(40:32):
wants.
It's very much dictated byrelationships within the company
, the charisma with the audienceand also technical ability, how
they look.
I mean everything.
It's almost sales.
It's almost sales to a certaindegree, but wrestling does
factor into it.
If you're not a fantasticwrestler generally.
That's actually my big beefwith Hulk Hogan.

(40:53):
I don't think he's a fantasticwrestler, I think that he's just
a lot of charisma for the timethat he was in.
I don't think he's a fantasticwrestler.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
I think that he's just a lot of charisma for the
time that he was in.
But if Taylor Swift walked outat a at the Royal rumble, the
crowd would go crazy.
Yeah, she's a shit wrestler, Ibet.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yeah, she's amazing and I can vouch for her.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Careful, you might wind up on that next record who
is she dating now?
Travis Kelsey.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Travis Kelsey.
Um?
Who is she dating now?
Travis kelsey, travis kelsey,that's his name, correct.
Yeah, yeah, yeah who travis,kelsey has a brother correct?
yeah, something else, kelsey.
Do you know that he came out at?
He was like a figure in um.
It was like a match that wascalled a philadelphia street
fight.
Uh, yeah, he came out.
He was like one of the maskedwrestlers and it was revealed he
was one of them.
There are an unbelievableamount of celebrities that are

(41:41):
on the roster Currently.
Logan Paul, who is.
Whether you love him or hatehim, I actually think it's the
greatest place that he's everbeen Like.
I despised him as an influencer.
He is perfect for pro wrestlingbecause you can just hate him
like and enjoy hating him.
It's.
It's a perfect and he's veryathletic.
Pat McAfee, former NFL player,is an announcer and often is

(42:04):
involved in the ring.
Bad bunny, who is amulti-platinum selling artist
and, I believe, grammy awardwinner.
He is also a professionalwrestler Celebrity, plays into
it First WrestleMania ever.
Do you know who is the featuredum wrestler?
Ronald reagan great, honestly,uh, former former president

(42:25):
donald trump has been in thering before, by the way he has
been featured.
He has wrestled before.
Uh no, cindy lopper, cindylopper hell, yeah, I gotta find
this.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Oh, it's great yeah again.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
I bet she's not a good wrestler.
Yeah no, but it's fun.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, this is the whole.
Thing.
It is fun, I get this.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
In this wrestling universe you bring in
celebrities and it's this placethat they can engage.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
But it's about celebrity.
It's not about the wrestling.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Isn't that what it can offer to?

Speaker 1 (43:05):
watch wrestling.
You can go find folk wrestlingout in the backyard.
If you want to watch somethinginsane and so cool it's, you can
go watch this dumb wrestlingand I love it and I mean that's
it and and.
But wrestling, yeah, yourtechnical ability, your
willingness to engage in truelike truly great, great um
athletic ability and prowess,and giving yourself to the move,
selling them everything else,it's the number one way that

(43:26):
people get over.
That's.
That's really the big thing islike the people who are great at
wrestling generally do that.
But celebrity is a part of itas well, and I think just to, I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
I think to to reset the track that I'm I'm on is is
I do clearly have strongfeelings about this, but it's a
um, it's a, it's a thing,there's a name for it, there's
it's.
The kayfabe barrier is thisidea that um that.
Wrestling is not not really asport.

(43:59):
It's at it's athletic.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
I thank you, at least we got him there.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
It's not a sport but there's the, the desire to
continue to portray it as if itis yeah, right, and so there's
in fiction.
We would call that a suspensionof disbelief.
When we go to the movies, Ihave no problem believing that
Brad Pitt is, you know whateverthe Spartan warrior or the

(44:25):
international spy.
I can do all of that because Iknow it's fiction and I'm going
for the purpose of fiction.
But with wrestling it'spresenting itself as a reality,
right, but it's a fiction, yep,right.
And so what you're narratinghere, though, is you're saying
that there's an overlap, and Ihaven't heard the overlap yet.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
It's coming All right .
Here we go.
So Bret and Shawn Michaels.
So Bret Hart Shawn Michaelsthey have this contentious
relationship.
Bret always maintained and I'mwondering if this is also going
to cause question marks hemaintained this professional
relationship with him.
What professionalism is isknowing that you're presenting

(45:08):
this match in the ring, butyou're also willing to not hurt
the other person.
You're willing to, like, kindof make sure that they look good
as much as you look good inhitting the moves and everything
else.
And he even dropped his belt tohim.
So at the time, bret Hart wasthe champion and agreed like,
yep, we're going to have a matchin which I drop the belt to
Shawn Michaels in a 60-minuteIron man match, meaning that no

(45:33):
matter what was going to happen,it wasn't pinfall, it wasn't
anything else, it was can eitherof these men men, uh, stand up
at the end of an hour-longwrestling match?
It's still like legendary.
And sean was the one who got up, took the belt and, uh, he gave
him that love at the time,during this era, the ratings of
the wwf, as when sean took thebelt, um, um, we're not beating

(45:57):
WCW, um, and this is creatingeven more tension between the
two of them Cause Brett's likeyou want to throw me back on
because I was doing really wellum at the time.
Um, but this also didn't bodewell for keeping Brett because,
as this is starting to sink, um,you know WCW is going to be

(46:18):
like how about this mini million?
How about this mini million,even with Brett's loyalist
tendencies?
So Brett had the idea whencoming back that he could take
the belt back, like coming backfor a title run.
He could take the belt back andhad a plan to put over Shawn
Michaels and they discussed thisat the time like I think it was
on an airplane and Brett couldtell by his facial expression he

(46:40):
despised that idea.
He's like I just got the belt,this is my time to build this up
.
No, I don't want this to happen.
So during this time, wcw makesthe offer.
While he is filming at this isBret Hart, uh, voiceover for the
Simpsons.
He had a like a guest spot onthe Simpsons for $2.8 million.
This was huge um for ninetieswrestling at the time, with 280

(47:05):
live dates per year, which is umsignificantly less than most
wrestlers have to um hit Um.
It would give them more timefor recovery.
So Brett brings this back toVince to give him a counter
argument.
Um Vince gives him.
He says I'm not going to beable to match the numbers at the
time, but I'll give you a 20year deal of three more active

(47:27):
years six years of being asenior advisor and 10 more as a
standby legend.
And what that means is isbasically, you're going to be
wrestling all the time for threeyears six years.
You're going to come out forguest spots and you'll have a
few matches here and there andthen, like for 10 years, we'll
only put you in the most seriousmatches, like you could be
guest referee.
We're going to feature you inthe storylines, um, and at the

(47:49):
end of that you're going to belooking at $10.5 million.
That's what he's looking at.
If you think about it.
Wcw that yearly contract of 2.8mil is probably going to go up
each year.
If he's doing well, in threeyears he's going to clear what
he cleared in 20 with Vince.
But even then, brett stillsticks with Vince.

(48:10):
He just feels like he owes himhis life and he says I'm going
to.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
I'm going to keep to that.
I feel like history has proventhat's always the wrong choice
Seems to be.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Seems to be Take that quick money and run.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
That's it for everything.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
I just mean sticking with Vince yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Oh yeah, especially, we're at the height of him in
tremendous scandal right now.
So yeah, that's definitely thecase.
So once he got the contractafter it basically had like a
handshake agreement 20-yearthing sounds good Once he
actually saw the contract, itwas far more controlling.
He looks at it on the table andit's saying you got to do this,

(48:51):
make sure, if the matches arelike this, you're going to need
to do this.
Here's how the belt is going towork for you.
And he doesn't like it.
He wants revision andconcessions right.
The most notable concession andthis has to do with what we're
going to talk about that he hasto make is he says, if he
decides to leave, he has 30 daysof reasonable creative control
over his storyline and how hehas the belt doesn't have the

(49:15):
belt.
Whatever it is is a reasonablecontrol over the storyline.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Brett has that control.
Yes, brett can basically hijackthe script and be like this is
what we're doing for the next 30days.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Well, it's reasonable .
So it's like there's anegotiation that happens but he
gets a part in it.
So Brett approaches Sean withthe idea they agree to this.
Brett approaches Sean with theidea that any personal stuff
that they've had shouldn't enterthe ring.
Like I feel like this has beennegotiated.
I'm going to be around for awhile.
And he says like I just want tolet you know I'll always treat
you like a professional in thering, even though we've had our

(49:45):
differences.
Michael's directly tells him uh, thank you for saying that.
I will not offer the same toyou.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Like, just this is real.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
This is not part of the storyline.
This is in the locker rooms.
How do you know?
Because both of them haveconfirmed in interviews.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Why would they lie?

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Don.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Because of the kayfabe thing, they're supposed
to lie all the time.
But isn't this fun?

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Yeah, this is fun, just stay fun.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Hey man, be a cool guy.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
This is the second act of the film.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah, please, I'm enjoying it.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
So get off your phone .
I'm listening to the film.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
So Sean would not drop the belt.
And to Brett, coming back andgoes out on injury, says I have
a knee injury this going back toK-Fab.
We still to this day doesn'tknow if that's true or not, but
basically says I'm on, I'minjured, so uh, I'm not gonna
have a match with him.
And uh goes and drops the beltdue to injury because that's how

(50:47):
much he hates him at the time.
This leads to um, maybe themost important match ever for
stone cold steve austin, which Ithink is probably the biggest
cultural reference wrestler umof the more modern era, um, in
which um heart actually turnsheel, meaning turns into a bad
guy, because he puts steveaustin and it's in a submission

(51:10):
only match, he puts him in thesharpshooter.
Um steve austin um is is he uhis cut in that match.
If, if you guys don't know.
Another thing is wrestlersoften will hide small razor
blades in their either sweatbands on their wrists or
somewhere in their speedo ifthat's what they're wearing in

(51:33):
which they'll create minor cutson themselves so they're
bleeding.
If it's a particularly intensematch, um, which has caused
controversy throughout the years, um stone cold is cut very
badly in this match and he's inthe sharpshooter and he doesn't
give up, but he passes out dueto blood loss, which is
hilarious because it's like it'sjust there's like some blood on

(51:55):
his face, it's like it's justthere's like some blood on his
face.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
It's like wait for real he passes out.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Uh, no, no, no, this is, this is part of the
storyline, exactly, yeah, yeah,exactly, um, but he passes it's
irritating, right, but it's alsolike a riddle.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
It's kind of irritating.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
It's like interpreting a david foster
wallace book or something so hepasses out and the reason this
is significant is he doesn't tapout.
It creates the persona of StoneCold Steve Austin, because he's
the only guy ever he's put inthe sharpshooter.
He wouldn't tap out to thegreatest submission move.
Like you know, ric Flair's gotthe ankle, the figure four,

(52:30):
ankle lock, we got thesharpshooter.
Everybody taps out to it.
But Steve Austin's so tough, hedidn't, he passed, he passed
out, he never tapped out andit's a really big part of his
persona.
So, as he does that, brettstands up, looks at steve austin
, um, who is passed out on thecanvas, um, and starts, while

(52:51):
he's unconscious, kicking him uhand beating him senselessly and
so like.
Even in passed out state thecrowd is like shocked because
Brett has been such a great guy.
And here's this guy passed outin the middle of the ring and
this puts him over as this badguy.
There Brett Hart starts the newpart of his storyline and it was

(53:11):
such a good idea.
I think this is a greatstoryline.
He basically said that StoneCold Steve Austin, which at the
time he was like the beerdrinking, swindling like
southern, you know, kind of uh,the texas rattlesnake was his
name, uh, name, oh yeah,absolutely.
Uh, hates his boss like um foulmouth guy.

(53:34):
Basically, bret hart said thisis the representation of america
and I despise everything aboutit.
This shows the moral decay.
And what was cool about this ishe was the biggest villain in
the us, but everywhere else inthe world he was loved when he
because he's canadian.
When he's in canada, people arejust loving him because it's
like, yeah, down with america.

(53:54):
When he's in europe, peoplelove him, but in in the US he's
absolutely despised.
Because all he talked about isthe current decay of America.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
He was right, we should have listened to Brett.
Let's bring back Brett, babyDark.
Brett was on to something.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
He really was.
Rivalry begins again where Ibelieve Belt has passed back to
Sean at a certain point orSean's competing for it.
Either way, their rivalrycontinues and other things enter
, like Sean attacking the factthat he's not faithful to his

(54:31):
wife, sean Hart going after Seanagain for various things, sean
Hart going after Sean again forvarious things, and this
actually leads to a realbackstage locker room fight in
which, especially when thingswere not good with Bret Hart's
actual family who's having acontentious time, the infidelity
claims didn't help and thisleads to a physical fight.
It's a real one, don't look atme like that.

(54:52):
You don't know Absolutely.
It's a real one that happens inthe back room.
A fight doctor, he's like thisone's real.
But Sean files for saying thisis an unsafe work environment, I
quit and goes from there.
Undertaker, one of the othercharacters.

(55:13):
He was actually my favoritewrestler of all time.
He's a ghost, right.
He's he kind of in a sense.
He kind of in a sense becausehe shows up.
He shows up in ways he hasrelations with the, with the
ghosts, with Letting the Cray.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
I mean who?

Speaker 1 (55:28):
hasn't.
When I say relations with thedead.

Speaker 3 (55:30):
I'm not talking about sexual relations.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
I'm talking about.
He has.
It's like his thing is is thathe could commune with the dead.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
So Undertaker eventually gets the belt, it
goes to you know, that doesn'treally sound a lot better.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Just it does, it does .
He's my favorite of all time,and don't talk about it.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
He forms community with the dead.
That's cool.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
That's very cool, but eventually Brett takes it, and
this sets the stage for Brett todrop his belt when the attitude
era is beginning with StoneCold's becoming more popular.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
At the time, shawn Michaels drop his belt doesn't
mean, he's undressing that'scorrect again not sexual
relations.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but no, it's
him talking, it's.
It's who the belt is going tonext, because if these are
staged moments, you drop thebelt.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
So you just say if.
Yeah, you say, if these arestaged.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
All right, he's just he's too much Folks.
I'm expecting that you've tunedout by now.
I mean, it's just so muchnegativity in the air Don's
turned.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Heel he's a star.
Here he is the bad guy.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Hollywood.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Don's turned heel.
He's trying to be the bad guyHollywood.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
Don, that's Hollywood .
Don, that's right, my goatee isa different color.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
That's right, we're going to get you stacked up.
So Shawn Michaels eventuallycomes back.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
He becomes part of this group called Degeneration X
, degeneration X, degeneration X.
Oh, because they're degenerate.
They're degenerates.
Yeah, they're bad guys.
D-generation X, d-generation X.
Oh, because they're degenerate,they're degenerates.
Yeah, they're bad guys.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Yeah, because it's the attitude area Everybody's
gross, everybody's lewd Grimy,grimy boys.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
Grimy boys.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
A grimy time for a grimy nine or 10-year-old Grimy
nation.
Grimy nation baby so and he'sbeginning to pull significantly
more than Brett is at the timebecause everything is trending
towards this.
So it becomes where, eventhough Brett is on a lot of
these pay-per-view events andcards, they'll put Sean on

(57:25):
afterwards and he's trendingmore with the audience.
So attitudes begin to change,where Vince is beginning to
think that Brett might not beworth the amount that he paid
and WCW keeps knocking on thedoor and Vince famously told him
think with your head and notyour heart, basically telling
him that the money's good enough.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
And he said Vince, but my name is heart.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
I hope he did.
I hope he did so.
Brett heartbroken uh, he did.
I hope he did so.
Brett heartbroken uh.
Decides to seal the deal andsign with wcw, letting him know
my 30 days are here, and what dowe know about these 30 days he
can do?

Speaker 2 (58:09):
anything carte blanche reasonably reasonable
control.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Ron, that's what you don't get carried away.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
I wish they told that to jj abrams in the last star
wars film, but it's terriblethanks, uh, yeah, so I went out
uh so when this happens, um,he's still pissed off at sean
michaels.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
He's like no, I'm not dropping the belt to him.
Uh, how I want to go out iswe're gonna have one more match.
I'm leaving with the belt whenI go to WCW.
That's my reasonable control.
Heads at WWF say no, ratingsare starting to pick up.
We're losing Brett.
He's been a staple of this.
We're not taking it overbecause that doesn't look good.
It doesn't look good that thechampion is going over to.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
WCW.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Don't let this happen , vince.
Don't let this happen, vince.
Don't let this happen, vince.
And um, yeah, they suggest thatthey fix this match.
Let let our man Brett thinkwhatever he wants.
All the matches are fixed.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
No, but this one's, really this one's actually fixed
, though, don.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
If every match is fixed, then none of them are
fixed until one of them is fixed, don do we need to pause the
podcast to explain this to you?

Speaker 1 (59:20):
do we need to show you the footage?
Uh, that's what I have to say.
So, um, yeah, so they'redebating on just explain to me,
though.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
How.
How is the match fixed if allthe matches are fixed?
What makes the this fixdifferent than other fixes?

Speaker 1 (59:35):
it's a double fix and you want your second fix and
you got it.
Brett believes going into thismatch.
Up to this point you agreethere's going to be, and what
they decide on and what Brett istold and is agreed on is
there's going to be adisqualification.
We're going to go into thismatch.
There will be a DQ, thathappens, disqualified, and you
can keep your belt because itwas a dirty match and so you end

(59:57):
your reign with the belt andyou can go over to WCW.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
And what makes a disqualification in this?

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
game.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
In this case it has no rules and people can throw
chairs and razor blades?

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
No, I told you, if they use weapons it's an instant
disqualification.
You said they hide the razorblade in their speedos.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
No, nobody sees the razor blade.
No one knows about that.
I knew this was going to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
I knew you were going to do this to me, this, so this
was going to be interference.
Interference isn't allowed.
So members of D-Generation Xwere going to run into the ring
and interfere with the match andmembers of the Hart Foundation,
which are Brett's crew thatwere there, were going to go in
and defend.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
He needs to workshop that Hart Foundation.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Sounds like something in a Hallmark movie.
Yeah, yeah.
You're the one who said soapopera Hart Foundation is a
Hallmark Christmas movie.
We need to write that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
If Bret Hart was in it, I'd watch it.
I'll tell you that much rightnow.
So the reason it's a doublefixin', if you will, is Bret
thinks that he's going in andthis is the agreed upon match,
but they decide we're going todo this a different way.
We're going to make sure thatSean gets this belt, and I'll
suspend our thoughts about thisfor just a moment, because we

(01:01:08):
are now officially at the screwjob.
The match has been decided atSurvivor Series.
So this is the name of thepay-per-view event Survivor
Series that they're going to do,and the decided outcome is
disqualification.
So to give you an idea of whathappens, I'm going to give you a
play-by-play of the match.
We're in Montreal.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Red.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Heart's hometown, love this poutine.
Thank you, it's maple syrup.
It's so lame.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Audience reeks Absolutely Cheese Molson's just
affluent.
Everyone's wearing the NiagaraFalls poncho.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Couldn't be more disappointed in you.
I'm moving to Canada.
Me and Neil Young are going totear it up up there with, brett
Michaels enters first holdingaadian flag that he destroys in
front of the audience.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
oh, very please tell me you're in.
Yes, I'm in.
Don are you?

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
I'm in are you in great come on.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
This is good setting this up for five years this is
good theater and he walks inholding the canadian flag and
just destroys, in front ofeveryone, the degenerate that he
is doesn't seem like it's veryinclusive, like Like we're
bringing people together.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
Okay, you're done, but that's what sports are about
.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Brett enters to An absolute outpouring of support.
There's upper in the audience.
He had the signature thing hedid.
He came out in these like kindof wraparound sunglasses that he
would always take off and giveto a kid in the audience.
And he walks in for the lasttime.
That's real.
That is heart foundation.
He gives them to these kids,gives them to the kids, gets

(01:02:47):
into the ring and you know, know, it's just absolutely
electrifying the match startswith an attack.
Before the bell, the bell hasnot rung.
Whoa, yes, start the match.
And in that moment, um, thereare ref.
The referee who's in in thematch is actually decked.
There's so much violencebetween the two men.
The referee is decked, fallsout of the ring.
Other referees try to getinvolved.

(01:03:08):
They're being decked.
The the action goes outside ofthe ring.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
Yes, don, but it's pretend the referee pretends to
you but it feels like real lifewhere are they?

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
I'm a kid I'm wearing bret hart sunglasses.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
You are, you're seeing this, I'm watching, I'm
like and in the audience, didn'tsee it at home, but his eyes
got real big, to say the least,right and so, um, as this is
happening, eventually, um, thethe match officially starts.
After that, the match hasalready been happening outside
of the ring.
Inside the ring, the bellfinally rings and we get this

(01:03:39):
going.
That's what I'm saying.
So, as that happens, we'repulling this off, um, back and
forth.
The match goes um the crowdcheering for brett, booing
Michaels, michaels jeering atthe crowd going here's your
champion Absolutely disgusting.
And we're waiting for thispotential interference.
They're even showing thembackstage and it's like it's

(01:04:00):
setting up what you think isgoing to be.
Oh, they're going to blow thismatch.
At this moment, this moment,brett goes for a move called a
sledge, in which you stand onthe top ropes, jump off the top
and bring both your fists downon the back of your opponent and
in that moment, sean michaelsgrabs the referee, throws him in
the way and brett sledge landson the head of the referee,

(01:04:20):
knocking him out.
Anything goes at this point.
There's no ref to call thisthing, as this is wrongs with me
, I knew I'd at least get youthis cool, yeah so um.
So, as this happens, uh, michaelstarts to get the better from
the match and he takes brett tothe ground.
Brett's on the ground.
In an absolutely shocking turnof events, sean michaels puts

(01:04:45):
brett in his own submission holdthe.
The sharpshooter turns him overto his back.
The ref suddenly awakes out ofhis knocked out state and gets
up seeing that he's in thissituation and Vince McMahon, who
is standing ringside, says youbetter ring that bell.
Brett's not In this moment.

(01:05:08):
The entire crowd uproar of rageand anger because Brett did not
tap out to his own submission.
Vince McMahon called for theend of this match.
Bret Hart released from thesubmission Shawn Michaels,
looking like he's shocked eventhough we know he's in on it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:26):
We know that he's in on it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Bret Hart stands up, hawks a loogie and spits on
Vince McMahon's face.
If you look up images of this,the amount of loogie on this
man's hair is unbelievable.
It's so disgusting to look atactually, but he spits on his
face.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
It's like Cameron Diaz he's talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
there's something about Mary right there One of
the best of all time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Brett starts tearing apart parts of the ring.
He's destroying things.
He looks up at the camera andcrowd and he writes in the air
with his single digit WCWindicating his disdain and anger
for the way that he's beentreated.
After all of his service, allthe loyalty that he's given to

(01:06:10):
this man, he's been screwed overby Vince in being told that
this match goes a certain way.
And so Brett jumps out of thesubby If he's screwed over,
we've got the spitting, we'vegot everything else and he runs
out of the ring.
He goes to the locker room andhe runs out of the ring.
He goes to the locker room,vince follows him out, shawn

(01:06:30):
Michaels goes back belt in hand.
And this is actually the momentthat some people will call it
the beginning of the AttitudeEra, because Vince has never
looked more like a bad guy andStone Cold.
Steve Austin's greatest rivalryhe ever had.
It was with Vince McMahon.
The greatest moments were nothis wrestling like a lot of the
time, as people say.
Mcmahon Like.
The greatest moments were nothis wrestling Like a lot of the
time, as people say, but it wasthe moment in which he got to

(01:06:53):
either beat up or shame the bossbecause Vince was so hated.
After this backstage, uh, thelocker room is going absolutely
nuts and famously Vince says Iwant to be able to talk to Brett
, I'm going to stand here.
When he finally gets inside thedressing room, he looks over at
Brett and Brett says if you'restill here here by the time that
I get out of the shower, I'mgonna knock you clean out.
When he comes out of the shower, vince is still standing there
and he's like I'll give you one.

(01:07:14):
Brett proceeds to deck him.
He falls over, even, uh,injuring his ankle.
Like he falls over.
It gets like completelysustained in that and brett
leaves the wwf on one of thesaddest notes.
Fans uproar of how upset theyare in the way that this is
conducted and Don you might say,well it's all fixed anyway.

(01:07:37):
It's all fake.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
I don't sound like that you do when you talk like
that you do, don when you talklike that you do.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
You become this other version and it's so painful to
hear you become this otherversion, and it's so painful to
hear.
And it's, in my opinion, whenyou ask what makes great
wrestling writing, this is oneof the greatest moments and
saddest moments in the historyof the WWF, so you think this
was a good thing.
I hate that Bret Hart wasscrewed over, but when it comes

(01:08:07):
to a storyline and what it built, arguably it's one of the most
important moments in the historyof sports entertainment.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
I love that I didn't think you're gonna go that far,
yeah and so what?

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
what is actually tragic about it is wcw.
Even though they have so muchum funding, they don't do story
as well, they don't do promotionas well and eventually, like
wcw does, collapse.
Brett really never got the samelevel of attention.
He had great matches in wcw withguys like sting um with uh, he
was on uh money for nothing yep,yeah, yeah, yeah and uh, that's

(01:08:45):
uh, that's definitely the exactsame guy, not the guy who kind
of looks like brandon lee andcrow uh with a baseball bat and
WCW, if that's okay.
Um, uh, it actually reallyaffected him.
And then, uh, brett, to thisday, I mean uh, discusses how
that was kind of the beginningof the end for him.
Um, and even though his legacyof being one of the greatest, um

(01:09:06):
greatest is there, he is mostlyremembered in the timeline as
being the guy that was screwedover and it breaks my heart.
But it also led to the AttitudeEra of WWF, which is what put
them on the map as the mostlandmark pro wrestling

(01:09:27):
organization in the world.
Yes, you've got to help meunderstand because I'm I don't
think about the layers of storythat we have here.
Well, that's, that's the mic.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
that's the problem that I think I'm struggling with
is okay.
So we're fighting over a beltthat we're not actually winning.
We're just deciding around somestory table in a writer's room
who's going to get it Right, anda very good one at that.
So why does it matter to Brettso much that he retains this
pretend belt when, like, he canjust go to WCW and they can make

(01:10:02):
up a story that he, you know,found an ancient Aztec belt, or
he's like?

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
why does it Not the power of the aztec belt?
Or he's like, why does it?

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
not the power of the aztec.
It's a pretended belt, so whatdoes it matter if he takes it or
he doesn't take it?
I think can I?

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
I'd love you to take it wrong, because I'm sick of
defending this beautiful moment.
What?

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
I see, is it's not about you gotta.
You're focused on the belt, butyou gotta look at the forest
and you're stuck on the trees.
That's right.
It's about legacy, it's aboutpersona right, that's it.
He's been working for I don'tknow how many years five years,
25 years?
I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Yeah, doing it since he was a young kid at least he's
been working all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
You want to go out and you want people to know that
you won the fake belt becausethat matters to someone.
Some kid knows.
Bret Hart was the champion,Whether or not that championship
means anything.
He was that and now he's deniedit.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
I would be mad.
Your last moments in thecompany, when we went to the
party and said thank you so muchfor your 25 years of service.
You get there and the cake ismade out of, I don't know, salt
or sand and it's served up toeverybody else.
And we're like you know what,you're actually kind of a bag of
dicks and that's it.

(01:11:22):
You know, like it's, likethat's that's what you look at.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
That's my nightmare.
I dream of this man.
Yeah, this is bad.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Your last moments, and that's what you're given.
And so, in those 30 days ofcreative writing which he's
given, it was more important tokeep WWF going than it was to
say thank you for your service,and I think that the beauty of
the moment is seeing that in thewriter's room I think it
becomes almost.

(01:11:47):
What isn't real is maybe we'remaking the belt drop to people
that we don't have, but theemotional context of the human
condition, of seeing that yourservice is not worth it, that
that, like loyalty to thecompany, is not as important
after everything that you'vegiven resonates with the human

(01:12:09):
psyche in a way that makes me awrestling fan see, and I can, I
can be on board with that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
If we're talking about the, the reality of the
situation of, of a, of a companysaying this is the script, but
it's, it's not secretly, it'sreally not the script like that
and we're just going to publiclyhumiliate you yep, because in
your hometown, right, I canunderstand all of that, but
that's the reality of it.
That's not the wrestling partof it.

(01:12:34):
The wrestling part of it iswhat seems I struggle with,
because it's pretending to bereal, it's pretending to be
about the belt and it'spretending to be about the
championship, and none of thatis real.
That's not really the tragedyhere.
The tragedy is what you'reyou're saying.
The tragedy is that he diddemonstrate loyalty to this
company and then, at the lastmoment, he he changed his

(01:12:57):
loyalty, and to punish him forthat change of loyalty, they
publicly humiliate him insteadof just let him slide away,
because because I mean the storythe story is still controlled
by, by wwe f, whatever they,whatever alphabet soup they had
at the moment, but it wasn't wcwbecause so.
So he retains the belt and andthen he goes to wcw.

(01:13:20):
Then the very next week vincecan go on and say, oh, we looked
at the tapes and you know hedid drugs or whatever, and we're
gonna retroactively take thispretend belt back.
None of that is real.
That doesn't affect me at all.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
But the words that are constructed on a page are
just words if they're notconstructed together with the
respect of the audience, of thereader who is reading them, and
just in that same bars over here, Doug yes.
The way that the film thatcaptures the images of the
actors that have given theirlives to the performances that

(01:13:56):
change people's lives and mindsand ideas about who they are,
because they resonate with thehuman condition.
I will give a part of my lifeto watch great men and women
step inside the squared circle,to give the stories and the
amount of hope and dreams thatare potentially shattered by
this moment to make you wantthat hope back so badly that

(01:14:19):
you'll continue to tune in everyweek and watch your heroes rise
again, and that's why I lovewrestling but wouldn't it be
better if they actually werewinning those no Like?

Speaker 3 (01:14:33):
isn't that the point?
Like they're heroes becausethey win, not because they
convince somebody at the WellDon.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
That's why I also watch the UFC.
And that does happen, that'sfair.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
To me it's like the realm of myth.
We've entered the realm ofmodern myth-making.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
Right it is.
It doesn't matter that Sisyphusnever existed and there was
never a boulder that he put up,but can't I be?

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
inspired, can't I be inspired by the tale of the man
named Sisyphus who had to pushthat boulder up the hill over?

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
and over again.
Absolutely, I think you'resupposed to be defeated by that
image.

Speaker 2 (01:15:11):
No, I'm going to keep doing that too.
Absolutely no, I think it's.
It's very fascinating to me.
It's just like a drama that haslike bathed the fourth wall in
a flamethrower, right Like it'sjust like.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
It's like an evolution of drama, I find yeah,
right, and I think, don, whereyou despise it, I'm fascinated
by it because it's the weirdest.
It is strange.

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
I mean, that is the one thing I can say, and we
should also say like deeplycorrupt and bad, and a lot of
these people are absolutelychewed up by this machine and do
not recover people areabsolutely chewed up by this
machine and do not recover.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
Yeah, we should not be like yeah, we should not
Disney.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
Disney fi the WWE.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Yeah, um yeah, cause it can be incredibly rough, but
I think that's why I will giveit the love that I do is because
the people who devote theirlives to it.
It is such a um, it's such aninteresting craft to me of how
to deliver this story and to doit through this.
Yeah, again, going back tocatches, can, catches, catch can

(01:16:14):
wrestling, and these move setsand these things where combat
kind of centers around it andthe idea of ego and destruction.
All of these things can playout on this ring.
That becomes a stage.

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
Well, I think we could probably take a page out
of the the W W.
Good luck.

Speaker 1 (01:16:36):
He did it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
We can just uh uh script out what's going to be
our, our next, uh confrontationand we'll decide who's going to
win the sorry drop?
Who's going to drop a belt?
Oh yeah, drop belt.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
I'm going to drop belt.
Uh, drop, who's going to drop abelt?
Oh yeah, drop belt.
I'm going to drop belt.
Thank you so much, doug.
I feel more connected tohumanity now actually.
I'm feeling very positive.
You've done somethingtremendous for me.
Thank you, it's an honor.
It's an honor, gentlemen.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
He knew it was going to happen before we started.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
It wasn't real, so did I, he paid me to say that we
will see you next time, folks,thank you.