S1E1: Michael Cashman - How A Young Actor Became An Activist

A boy from Limehouse learns to disappear to survive. Decades later, he chooses the opposite—and everything changes. Michael Cashman joins us for a vivid, unflinching journey from dockside childhood to EastEnders fame, from the terror and tenderness of the AIDS years to the kitchen-table founding of Stonewall. He shares how art, politics and everyday compassion forged a life of showing up when silence was safer.

Michael dissects the tabloid machine, Thatcher-era fearmongering, and the “double helix of hatred” that braided homophobia with AIDS panic. Then he walks us through Section 28: the strategy behind inserting “intentionally,” the coalition that grew beyond identity, and how a law designed to erase visibility sparked a generation to come out and organise.

From living rooms stacked with wine racks to a one-night revival of Bent that funded a movement, we trace how Stonewall took shape and why rights remain fragile without relentless solidarity. Michael is clear: equality means the right to opt in or out—and it strengthens everyone’s freedoms. We close with a call to reject complacency, stand with trans people and migrants, and demand politics that allows honesty, course-correction and courage.

If this conversation moved you, follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone. Your support keeps these stories alive—and keeps the door open for the next person to walk through.

This episode was hosted by Jonathan Chambers and James Alexander

Editing by Hannah Stewart

Music: Mystify created by AlterEgo

Visit our website, https://tvfh.co.uk

Follow us on Instagram, https://www.instagram.com/theviewfromherepodcast

Episode Transcript

Intro (00:01):
There were a thousand people in the hall, and I said,
My name is Chris Smith.
I'm the Labour MP for IslingtonSouth and Finsbury, and I'm
gay.
A group of us in the GayLiberation Fund hitting the idea
of holding a gay pride march tochallenge that shameful view.
Equality, and for some people inStonewall like me, equality was

(00:24):
kind of like what you got to asa starting point.

James (00:27):
Welcome to The View From Here, the podcast that explores
the lives of key people in theLGBTQ Plus movement.
I'm James, and I'm Jonathan.
We hope you enjoy the podcast.

Jonathan (00:41):
For our first episode, we're joined by Michael
Cashman, former MEP, actor, andco-founder of Stonewall.
Today's episode explores themesof identity, transformation,
and the politics of visibility.

James (00:54):
And we hear powerful reflections and stories from
Michael.
You'll hear how art, politics,and deep compassion forged a
lifelong commitment to change.

Jonathan (01:05):
Michael, welcome.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
My pleasure.
You were born in 1950 inLimehouse.
And you were brought up inLimehouse.
And I would like to take youback there and ask, in general
terms, what that was like.
London has changed a dramaticamount in the intervening
period, but also what it waslike for a young kid who started

(01:28):
to realize that he was gay.

Michael (01:30):
I'm lucky in the I'm now living back in Limehouse,
500 yards from the sprawling,amazing council estate that I
was born on, that that kind ofwent down to the edge of the
Thames.
The Thames that was ourplayground.
We me and my three otherbrothers, that was where we

(01:51):
went.
It was it was an adventure.
We jumped from barge to barge.
When we get together, we oftensay, My God, if if we did now
what we did then, our parentswould be locked up instead of us
being locked up.
Uming I was different, it wasthe best place to be because it

(02:15):
was a dox.
Strangers came through thegates, so nobody, interestingly,
was a stranger.
And colour and difference andextravagance uh didn't matter.
It was part of an amazingmosaic of primary colours, and

(02:35):
the subtlety was seen elsewhere.
I mean, my mum and dad uh oftenwhen I go past the corner of
where Charlie Brown's pub was,um where people used to come
from the the West End to witnessthe fights and the gangland uh
brutality.
But but there was a uh a warmthand a femininity about the

(02:57):
place.
My mum and dad would oftenbring home a drag queen uh or or
an old uh old camp sailor uh ona Friday night that they would
suddenly foster for the weekend.
And knowing I was different, Iknew at the earliest age uh that
that I was attracted to toother boys.

(03:18):
Sadly, uh it must have beeninvisibly tattooed on my
forehead because some mennoticed it too.
Um but to grow up there was tobe given the most amazing canvas
uh upon which I could paint,but upon which I could also

(03:40):
disappear.
And by disappearing and andlearning, that's what gay men of
my generation had to do.
And I think uh a lot of gay menand LGBT people still do.
You find other personas topaste on the outside, and
pasting them on the outsideallowed me to observe and to

(04:02):
absorb.
Um, and it was that that reallychanged my life when uh Eartha
Kitt manifested herself in theyoung me at the age of 11, but
that's another story.

James (04:14):
And how how did you disappear?
What does what does it mean todisappear?
And I think you say a lot ofpeople still find themselves
disappearing.
The challenge, I suppose, is tostop yourself from disappearing
once you've got into the habitof doing that.
How did you get, I suppose, howtalk us through that?

Michael (04:28):
Um I think you it was learning to merge, learning not
to stand out, learning not tolook at a boy in the eyes,
learning not to sit too long uhand adore somebody getting
dressed alongside you orswimming with you.

(04:49):
It was it it's it was thatdisappearing.
It was it was taking somethingabout you, the orchid away from
you, and just being thereamongst the evergreens.
And and I remember, and I and Iput this into my memoir because
it was so strong when I went tomy secondary modern school at

(05:10):
the age of 11, a place where Iit was a war zone, I didn't fit
in.
And I remember that that day atPE, physical education, that I
used to hate.

James (05:24):
We can all relate to that.

Michael (05:26):
And there was this beautiful boy, Anthony, and he
let me watch him get dressed,and the fact that he knew I was
watching him sent the mostamazing warmth shuddering
through my body.
I think for the first time Ibelonged in the company uh of

(05:48):
another male, and that wasincredible, incredible.
And interestingly, uh he and Iended up having a brief affair
in our twenties.
Yeah.
Um hadn't seen him for yearsand years and years.
Uh, and we met at the localsteam bath in the East End.
Um, and he said, You don'tremember me, do you?

(06:10):
And I looked at this amazing,gorgeous man with a body to
match, and I said, No.
And he went, It's Tony.
And I rolled back the ears.
Um, and yeah, we went out onenight, got rather drunk.
Um and uh and the rest of thesay is is is is written into my

(06:33):
DNA.

Jonathan (06:36):
You know, I think one of the narratives that is common
amongst all LGBT people is thecoming out narrative.
Um we all have one, we have afirst time, we all tend to have
to do it over and over and overand over again.

Michael (06:49):
You never stop.

Jonathan (06:50):
Um do you do you remember your coming out
narrative?
When was the first time youtold somebody else that you were
that you were gay?
Did you have that vocabulary?

Michael (06:59):
No, uh I I didn't have the vocabulary.
That's why I'm so passionateabout safeguarding and informing
young young kids.
You empower them.
You you give them a sense ofwhat life is like, relationships
that are appropriate andinappropriate, but you give them

(07:21):
the words, and I wish the youngMichael that suffered for years
uh at the hands of one PeterPhile in particular felt that he
had the language and would bebelieved to say what was
happening.
Uh but I came out when I saidto uh by then I was a young

(07:47):
actor at the age of twelve andum uh and I was in Oliver in the
West End and and there was a uha boy that I fell in love with
and and I'm pleased to say hefell in love with me.
And I told him I loved him.
Um and I said uh what I'm goingto do is get a b a penny for

(08:11):
each of us and we're going tobend it so that when I see you
and we're out together, I canshow you that, and you'll know
that I love you.
Uh and he did exactly the same.
Um and of course you come outas you s as as as you said,
Jonathan, many, many times, andyou have to choose do I come out

(08:37):
again?
Um you know, spinning right theway forward when when my late
husband died.
Um and people say, Oh, I'msorry uh about your loss.
Uh when did your wife die?
And you have to make thechoice.
And that again is why I'mequally passionate about how we

(08:58):
treat people, uh LGBT pluspeople, who may end up going
into uh institutionalized socialcare.
And whether they have to comeout again as being HIV positive
or whether they come out againuh because the photograph that
is beside the bed.
It that's why I I ache and beg,uh perhaps it's the wrong word

(09:22):
to use for the normalization uhof being extraordinary and
reinforcing the ordinariness ofbeing extraordinary.
So that and I think we only weonly achieve equality when that
difference is taken out of theequation, so that the photograph

(09:44):
beside your bed, it doesn'tmatter.
It's somebody you loved,whether it was your brother,
your lost twin, or your lover.
It is it is the it's emblematicof love and affection.
And interestingly, that is whatthe enemies uh of LGBT equality
don't get.

(10:04):
They only perceive it, theyonly perceive our identity
through sexual activity.
They do not understand theconcept of loving and love.

James (10:15):
To your point about coming out almost every day when
you do a new, you know, andmeet a new group of people, or
you start a new job, or you do anew uh, you know, even as you
say, and and I hadn't reallythought about this in sort of
social care settings wherepeople might have new partners
or uh not new nurses, newdoctors, new new carers.
Um I hadn't even thought aboutthe fact that actually as you

(10:42):
get older, you might actuallyhave to come out almost on a
daily basis in a way that Ihadn't really considered up
until you said that.

Michael (10:49):
A lovely story and I'd tell it quickly.
My wonderful, wonderful oldliterary agent um who died quite
a few years ago uh was in asecure unit with dementia.
And I and I went in and the thethe the the nursing sister
said, Oh, oh, oh, Mr.
Cashman, you you know Ericrather well.
I wonder if you could have aword with him because he keeps

(11:10):
jumping in bed with this lady.
Now, Eric was like me, he wasas gay as a coot.
And I said, Are you sure?
She said, Yes.
So so we I I went to Eric'sroom and we went into the little
communal sitting room and wehad a wonderful time.
And as we came out, he turnedright and to go into this
bedroom.
And there was this lady lyingin her bed, and she went, Oh no,

(11:33):
no, it's him, he's him, he'safter me.
And he went, That bloody woman.
And he went to go over to herand got into bed with her and
said, Eric, what are you doing?
He went, she's in my bed.
And it suddenly dawned on methat this gay man who suddenly
had to, we had to prove hisgayness, right?
This gay man, of course, hadthe map of his apartment in his

(11:57):
head, so that when he came outof his sitting room, he turned
right to go into his bedroom.
So the the the ordinariness ofrecalling your past and then
having to affirm a differentsexuality to get you out of
trouble.
I'm sure there's a moral inthere somewhere, but even I
can't find that.

Jonathan (12:15):
You know, if we think about your kind of late teenage,
early twenties, we're talkingabout a time when there were two
groups really in the activismspace in the late 60s, early
70s, the campaign for homosexualequality and the Gay Liberation
Front.
Did you ever identify witheither of those?
Did you see yourself as anactivist at that time?

Michael (12:38):
Um, I knew about um CHE and GLF.
In fact, you you'd be prettycrazy if you didn't growing up
then.
I because I had my firstlong-term relationship that
started when I was 16, justbefore the partial
decriminalization in July 1967.

(13:00):
And Lee uh was eight yearsolder than me.
So even though the age ofconsent was suddenly at 21, he
and I had uh an il illegalrelationship.
Um so so I I think through himI was acutely aware of the uh uh
of the political dimension aswell as as he kept reinforcing

(13:24):
the criminal dimension.
Um but did I uh identify as anactivist?
Absolutely not.
Um interestingly, I was goingto call my book uh the
accidental activist.
Because it it it's a bit like,you know, I I ended up in in
politics.
None of this was plannedbecause other people did that,

(13:46):
intelligent people did that,people who went to university,
people who who who knew how tostand up and do a a stint at the
speaker's corner.
Um that was the role of otherpeople.
I I I was uh an ill-educated,uh poorly educated uh actor who
left school, really, at the ageof twelve, went to a stage

(14:10):
school at the age of twelve anda half, where you did about two
hours of academic work a day.
So the world of activism wassomething that other people uh
got on with.
And it was only I suppose onebec you We are all activists,
yeah, one way or another.
As soon as you accept aquestion or challenge an answer

(14:31):
uh about your uh sexualorientation or or your identity
or sense of belonging.
But for me, uh I didn't getinvolved in those early uh
political events not reallyuntil the mid to late 70s when I
went on my first uh PrideMarches.

James (14:52):
What and what drew you to the Pride March?
What what was I suppose becausebeing being in a you know being
talking about coming out aminute ago, being on a Pride
March is as a public a comingout as you can do.
Yeah how what what what got youto that place where you were
comfortable going on a PrideMarch or felt compelled to go on
a Pride March?

Michael (15:11):
A relationship.
Uh I started a a three-yearrelationship uh with a an
amazing, aware, LGBT politicallyactive man, and and he helped
me find my my politics ofbelonging.
Um and there was a s a sense uhin in the about '78, '79 uh of

(15:37):
a of a kind of intolerancegrowing against LGBT people.
It started as early as that,and the Conservative government
of Margaret Thatcher madepolitical capital out of the
positive work that was beingdone by certainly not only, but
certainly London councils likeHackney and Harringay and

(15:59):
Islington.
Um there was a so there was ageneral awareness if you went to
pubs and clubs that you thatyou uh you should show up.
Uh, but when when we did showup, I mean the first Pride March
I went on, I think there wereabout five or six hundred of us,
and we marched from this is howsmall they were.
We used to march from MarbleArch down to the University

(16:20):
University College London, yeah,and um, and we'd all go into
the student house and operate inthe student union, I think on
four floors.
Wow.
Um and um It wouldn't quite fitin there right now.
No, no.
Um so it was a very it it was amuch it was then a very uh
overtly political because we youyou had more police protecting

(16:44):
you uh than there were people onthe march.

James (16:46):
I suppose you talked about the government of Margaret
Thatcher at the time and andhow much did and maybe this is
almost applicable to modern daypolitics, which we're gonna come
on to a bit later, but how muchdid the government whip up
homophobia or how much did thegovernment ride on the back of
homophobia that was alreadyprevalent?

Michael (17:03):
I don't think the I don't think the government
whipped up homophobia.
Uh I think that when thegovernment saw the tabloids,
political parties becameenthralled with all of them.
You had to win over thetabloids.
For me, now at my age, it itsickens my gut uh that we still

(17:27):
allow these people this power,an opinion, one, you know, an
editor or group of editors, thisopinion, uh, and to enforce
that opinion uh uh uh on a on asociety.
So so I think Thatcher andPortillo uh and the others in
that in the government, uh Iforgive, but uh uh I I don't

(17:50):
forget.

James (17:50):
Um mustn't forget, and that's the actually the point of
this whole podcast is we cannotforget this.

Michael (17:55):
You can you cannot forget because that because
history is repeating itself.
And history repeats itselfuntil you stand in the way of
history and say, no, there is nofurther that you will go on
that route.
Um and and that means goingback to what started all of the
problems and the dangers, andit's primarily silence,

(18:18):
primarily burying your head.
And and I think uh Thatcher sawthat there was Rupert Moloch uh
and Rothermere in in the DailyMail, primarily, whipping up uh
the the fact that there was theunique solid family, the nuclear
family, and everything else wasa threat.

(18:39):
The miners were a threat, theleft were a threat, um gays,
single mothers, the whole range,they pulled us out uh and and
represented us as a threat andwere given a gift when they
realized that uh uh the AIDSvirus, the HIV virus, uh was

(19:04):
passing primarily amongst uh gayand bisexual men, not only, um
and and that it it could be usedas a threat, a real and
physical threat to others.
They believed they had a giftfrom hell, gift that gift from
hell that they could use toannihilate us and and and and I

(19:28):
think that's when Thatcher andthe others um uh aided and
abetted by elements of theprimarily the Christian uh
church thought they'd go in forthe kill and represent gay men,
in particular bisexual men, uhuh as a threat to somebody's
life.

Jonathan (19:47):
I'd love to talk about that period of time, say post
post-1984 to I suppose 1996 whenactually being HIV positive was
a death sentence.
Not anymore, of course.
But before we go to there, Ijust want to ask you a personal
question about coming out toyour family.
Um I listened to an interviewthat you gave, and correct me if

(20:09):
I've gotten this wrong, but youoverheard your dad saying, Oh,
I hope he doesn't go into showbiz because it's all a bunch of
poofs.
Um and it made me wonder whatwas that coming out process like
to your family?
Well, that was when I was 11.

Michael (20:22):
Um wow, okay.
When um when the talent scoutturned up, uh, having witnessed
me impersonating Eartha Kit atthe end of term school show and
wanted me to audition forOliver.
How he made the connectionbetween Eartha Kit and Oliver is
uh is for him to explain and meto wonder.
Uh although when I did tellEarth a Kit, I said it's due to

(20:43):
you that um uh that I'm in showbusiness and I explained it to
you, Oh my god, not anotherfucking queen.

James (20:52):
You had the opportunity to do that.

Michael (20:55):
You're doing a benefit, an HIV benefit at the
Shaftesbury Theatre for uh oneof the big charities crusade.
Uh and they said, Go on, go andtell her, go and tell her, and
knocked on her door and and andtold her she loved it, but you
know, and a fucking queen.
Um and uh thankfully she didn'task me to give my
impersonation.

(21:15):
Um so when my dad said thatwhen I was 11, uh, you know, any
idea of coming out, I wouldn'thave known what that meant.
Uh because I'd come out tomyself and I knew I had to keep
stumm, as we say in the EastEnd.
I was lucky in that having hadthat nine-year relationship from

(21:36):
the age of 16, an amazing senseof belonging, not having to
prove myself physically toanyone, belonging.
Um, even though I belongedwithin the confines of a small
apartment where Lee always said,Remember, if anyone asks but
why we're in this flat together,uh, you're my cousin.

James (21:59):
So you presumably were not public to anyone about this,
so friends, and there wasn'talmost no one you confided in.

Michael (22:04):
Wow.
Uh uh and he wouldn't be, andhe wouldn't be to his family.
Um there's a lovely story thatinterestingly, when he died many
years later, even though he'dnever come out about me, he he
tried to kill himself a coupleof times when we when we were
together.
Um and when he died, uh his mumput me in the first car with

(22:25):
him, which is a real sign ofbeing amongst the most the
closest.
And she's she looked at me andshe said, Um, I I put your
flowers on on Leon's coffinbecause he would have wanted it.
And even though he'd never comeout to her, that was her way of
saying uh I uh I knew and andyou belong.

(22:48):
Um so so so it was m it wasmany years later, sh shortly
after uh after I'd left Lee whenthere was uh my youngest
brother who uh was a big hit andrum victim uh uh of a motor
car, and um and he was inintense he was having major

(23:09):
brain surgery and we were all ina hospital relative's room, I
can see it now.
And my dad said this is alldown to his relationship with
Tim, which was my brother'spartner at the time.
But even though my brotherwasn't out to me and I wasn't
out to him, we were both uh gaymembers of the same family.

(23:30):
And I remember looking over tomy dad and I said, If you're
attacking Tim Danny for therelationship with Tim, you're
attacking me for my relationshipwith Andy because I've got
exactly the same.
And he just went, I don't wantto know.
I don't want to know.
And he left the room and I wentto go after him.
And my aunt pulled me back.

(23:52):
Um and then I went home and youhad to come out to my mum.
And my mum looked at me and shewent, darling, I've always
known.
Um and in a way, guys, youknow, that's that was a promise
that I made to myself very earlyon that I I wouldn't give them
expectations that I wasn't goingto meet.

(24:14):
So when I was invited to mybrother's wedding, my eldest
brother's wedding, they said,You can bring a girl.
And I said, No, I'll bring amate.
And thereafter, they alwayssaid, Bring a mate.
And I thought it was importantfor me not because not to raise
a lie, because it's as my goodfriend Lisa Power says, that

(24:35):
from the very earliest age,kindergarten onwards, you're put
on the heterosexual slide tolife.

James (24:44):
I think almost from from birth, you your your your
parents sort of think, get intheir head an idea of what your
life is going to be like, whichis of course is nonsense to do
at that.
And you know, you suddenlyyou're you're you're you like
animals.
Uh-oh, they're gonna be a vet.
Um and and so there's all thatkind of stuff happens, and it's
also this um, well, you know,they're gonna grow up and
they're gonna get married andthey're gonna have children, and

(25:04):
I'm gonna have grandchildren,and you know, and so and and I
always think coming out is youknow, because the fact that
you're not gonna be a vet issomething that very gradually
happens over time.
Oh actually, he's not actuallyvery good at biology, he's not
gonna be a vet every time.
All of it fades over time whenit's coming out is an instant in
time.
And suddenly you go from thisvision of someone's life to a

(25:25):
completely different one in aninstant.
And I think that's one of themost shocking things about
coming out for for parents.
And I anyone any friend of minethat's that's talked to me
about coming out to theirparents in advance.
I've I've said, please,whatever you do, don't
internalize everything they sayin the first minute or second or
or or hours because they arereassessing everything they had

(25:49):
in their head about what yourlife was going to be like.

Michael (25:51):
Yes.
And again, spinning forwardfrom our own experience of
childhood, that is why inclusiverelationship and sex education
is so important because it's notabout imposition unless you're
suggesting that the impositionof one is inferior or superior

(26:12):
to the other.
And I don't actually believethat.
I don't believe thatheterosexuality or bisexuality
or your sexual orientation makesyou a decent human being.
It's a huge collection of many,many different things.
And so, therefore, what you dowith inclusive education is
allow people space to becomethemselves, to accumulate, a bit

(26:35):
like a sponge.
And if it's and if if thesponge is surrounded by
goodness, then the balanceachieves itself.
And it's what it it's whatwe're f uh I'm fighting now in
in the House of Lords.
This continual suggestion thatuh young people, uh children,

(26:56):
families are at are at threat uhfrom uh from difference.
It doesn't the the old tropes,the old Trojan horses that they
try to sneak in uh are exactlythe same.

James (27:10):
Yeah, different difference is a threat, and the
the people that are differentare being uh different people
that are being targeted, ofcourse, trans people, asylum
seekers, we're gonna you knowcome on to the trans issue a bit
in a in a in a minute.
But and I and I think that thebut one of the key things there
is is people's assumptions.
And it's actually links back towhat you said about as you get
older in an in a nursing home,people have made an assumption

(27:33):
that you were once married to awoman or or or whatever, and and
how do we get to a point insociety where people don't make
assumptions based on normallives and inverted, commas,
normal heterosexual lives.

Michael (27:48):
I think we get there by removing that difference.
Yeah.
How and that was for me comingfrom the east end of London, uh
a boy knowing that I wasdifferent, and that my
difference could actually pose aphysical threat to me if an if
somebody else found out, andthat I was allowed to go into a
world on a 45-minute bus rideaway where I was judged on

(28:13):
turning up on time and doing thejob, and nothing else and the
freedom as a 12-year-old.
Oh I I still I still hold thosemoments because they guide you
through the perilous mud that wehave to deal with every single

(28:34):
day.
So I wanted to take you back to1984.

Jonathan (28:38):
Yeah.
The New York Times reports anarticle of a cluster of rare
cancer being seen in gay men.
And it's the first majornewspaper story that eventually
becomes about HIV.
We realize at that point, wedon't realise at that point what
it is.
You're an adult at this point.
Can you tell me your firstmemories of uh this illness,

(29:03):
what we later learned was HIV,creeping into the consciousness
in London?

Michael (29:08):
About 1984, 1985, living in uh back in the east
end of London.
Uh um Paul and I, um who becamemy husband, um we were together
for uh 31 years, and we've beentogether then roughly about 18
months, and we used to go off tothe local one of the local gay

(29:30):
discos.
Like most places, it was it wasgay on the nights when nobody
else wanted to go out.
So on Tuesday.
Sunday night or Thursday night,and there we were in benches,
and I remember uh Capital Gaywas the uh the free uh London
gay paper.
And and I remember starting toread about it in there.

(29:52):
And there was a man I want to sI I won't guess at his name,
but I I used to read hiscolumns.
Every week, and it was only,and I would get Capital Gay to
find out more.
Um that was the only newssource that was reporting
anything on it.
And um so that's where I gotmost of my information.

(30:16):
And then I started to learnabout the action uh on the west
coast of America and in NewYork.
Um, you know, silence equalsdeath, uh, the Keith Herring
work that that that came a bitlater.
Um, and the anger that came outof New York.

(30:38):
Uh I was fortunate in that uh II knew Martin Sherman, the
playwright, wonderfulplaywright.
Um you did Bent.
Who did Bent?
Wrote Bent.
And Martin, knowing Martin anduh a few other, if you can say
ex-Americans, um, I gathered auh a greater awareness of the

(30:59):
the political anger uh and theanger that there was with Mayor
Koch in New York, that we uh therumour was that he was gay, and
of course later it came outthat indeed uh he was gay uh and
overseeing uh the decimationand the silence uh around uh
HIV.
So I I became very quicklyaware, both of the mental, uh

(31:24):
the the medical uh aspects ofHIV, but equally the the the
political.

Jonathan (31:30):
And and you talk a little bit about going out on
that Tuesday night to that club.
Let's let's lift the mood alittle bit.
Where did you go out?

Michael (31:36):
Um well Monday night was Bangs, again, a great uh uh
up there on the corner of um uhTottenham Court Road on Oxford
Street, and you and oh it wasincredible.
You you dance away where wherewhere where freedom was just
another record away.

(31:57):
It was you you got in there,you you I used to drink what
they call lager lager tops,which is a lager with a bit of
lemonade on the top.
Um and uh Paul and I would getwe would dance our asses off and
then find the night bus and gethome.
And um and that was Monday's uhuh we didn't really venture to

(32:22):
heaven because that that wasseen as a bit a bit posh.
Um so so we have times ofchange.
And there was a man calledTricky Dickey who um uh who used
to run a series of uh again,one night only uh discos.
Uh gay, they were gay, theyweren't there weren't lesbian

(32:44):
and gay, but it was primarilygay men, because in those days
there was a huge separationbetween the lesbian and the gay
movement.
Indeed, often we we were at uhuh uh at loggerheads with
certainly politically with eachother.
Um so we go off to Pigeons inthe in the East End, which was
on a floor above the main pub onRomford Road in uh in

(33:08):
Stratford, and then uh TrickyDicky had another place just
opposite St.
Pancras.
Uh so those were the kind ofplaces you went, and
interestingly, I think we wegravitated towards them because
there was a sense of community.
I remember Rusty, wonderfulJamaican queen, who called

(33:29):
everyone virgin because he knewnone of us were.
Um and and Rusty used to goturn up, he'd get off the bus,
um, and he looked like a youknow, an off-duty bus conductor,
and he'd get off the bus andthen go in and then come out in
the in the he was about 40, Isuppose, and he'd come out in

(33:51):
the tightest little red footballshorts and long football socks
and his and his football uhshirt, and he'd collect the
glasses and he'd help out.
And it was so you were in youwere in a community.
It was very, very different.
And again, we always because welike to drink, we always found

(34:11):
somewhere that you could eitherget the bus home or you could
walk home.
And those were the places uh wewent to.
Even after I went into um foundnational fame in uh BBC
television's EastEnders, theythese were our places of refuge

(34:33):
where you could just be a partof that dancing popper, lift up
out of your head, escapingcrowd, escaping from a world
outside that was vicious andhard.
But then with the absence offriends who were always there,

(34:55):
suddenly not there, AIDS beganto make its witness on the
scene.
Um and uh and I remember youknow that lovely feeling of
being high and the warmth, andthen the warmth of East Enders,
and uh and and we used to dolots of benefits around AIDS and

(35:18):
HIV for the hospices uh becausea lot of places wouldn't take
us even when we were dying, evenin death, we were sometimes
denied a place in a funeralhome.
So never forget this.
That that even when we weredead, they didn't want to bury

(35:39):
us because of what they said thepose, the threat that we posed.
Um and I remember I was uh atthe old uh Chelsea hospital uh
doing what they call a celebrityvisit, and they used to say,
uh, we'll just pop round andmake sure everyone is up for a
visit.
Um and I knocked on this thedoor of this ward, uh single

(36:04):
single bed ward, opened it, andthere in in the bed was a friend
of mine who was HIV positive.
And that was how I got to know.
Um and he he said to me, Don'ttell anyone, please don't tell.
And he I think he died umwithin about three months.

(36:25):
He went back home, quietly diedaround his family, probably had
a quiet family funeral in thatplace where other members of his
family had gone.
Um So, and I and I lost a fewfriends.
But my god, they parted beforethey went.

James (36:48):
I mean you you talk you talk about, you know, uh at the
very beginning of your life youwanted to disappear in the club,
you could remove that that mshadow, that mask, and kind of
appear, be yourself, and thenbut almost HIV made made the
community almost want todisappear again as a community.
How did that affect you?

(37:09):
Having kind of almost foundyourself, come out to the world,
and then almost feel likeneeding to disappear again.

Michael (37:16):
It was what you had to do, but you it's what you had to
deny yourself because what onceyou disappeared, then you allow
the fabrication to becomestronger and more powerful.
And and when Paul and I wereliving in uh in um Mile End uh
and the News of the World brokethe story, outed him to his

(37:41):
family.
They outed it with a with anAIDS headline.
Because in the show that I wasin at the time, there was an
AIDS storyline, and I rememberthe headline, it said Secret Gay
Love of AIDS Scare East Ender.
And they put the location ofwhere we lived.
And that afternoon, a brickcame through the window.

(38:04):
It was the first brick, and itwouldn't be the last.
Um and I I tell that storybecause it gives an indication
of how people were charged upagainst anything to do with to
do with AIDS and HIV.

James (38:21):
And you think it was you think it was HIV AIDS rather
than more generalized homophobiathat that or was uh are those
two things very connected, ofcourse?

Michael (38:30):
They're very connected.
It's a spiral.
Yeah.
It's the double helix ofhatred.
We've now got an excuse to hatethese people.
So you have you know, it's thedouble helix of of Crick and
Watson, except this one ishatred.
Uh uh, you've got thehomophobia and then the
aisphobia, and they windtogether, joined from one side

(38:52):
of the helix to the other bypoliticians and tabloids and
publishers of hate.
Um uh and it's the same withthose with the rising
anti-Semitism and Islamophobiaand racism and and anti-migrant.
It's all it's all exactly thesame.

(39:14):
Um but but then it it's um itin a way the silence that they
wanted, uh, I think was whyThatcher and her government uh
so quickly got behind uh thefirst anti-lesbian and gay law
in a hundred years, uh, and thatwas section twenty-eight.

(39:37):
And and I I I honestly don'tthink that without AIDS uh that
they would have felt they hadthe power to do that.
I think there was a directconnection.

Jonathan (39:51):
And section twenty-eight really it feels
like the start of your thecatalyst for your political
activism.
Um so you set that upbeautifully for us.
Thank you, Michael.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the advent of that law and
how you and other peopleorganized to fight against it?

Michael (40:12):
Well, I was in EastEnders playing uh Didn the
Sun call it East Benders?
Yeah, yeah.
Before I was even in it, thethe front page of the The Sun,
uh the headline was EastBenders.
Um and it went downhill fromthere.
Uh uh the uh it it was awful,awful.

(40:36):
Um and again, when I said tothe BBC, how will I cope?
Because the BBC, the the theproducer said to me, Well, when
I when I met her, Julia Smith,she said, We've been trying to
cast a straight actor to playthis part.
Um, because she believed, shesaid, that it would be easier
for the actor who was straightto say, I'm just playing a gay

(41:00):
part.
So there was I in the show, anduh and and I learnt that the um
there'd been an amendment uh inparliament to a local
government act banning theso-called promotion of
homosexuality and theacceptability of uh gay

(41:20):
relations, gay relationships,uh, and that they couldn't even
be accepted as a pretend familyrelationship.
It's really interesting to goback and read uh uh that clause.
Um and uh and it was it was asanction against at that time
most education was covered bylocal authorities.

(41:43):
And it was a sanction againstany local authority, educational
authority, like the InnerLondon Educational Authority, uh
that oversaw London and had aprogressive attitude uh to uh
comprehensive uh education, uh,that it was a sanction to them
that they would be breakingbreaking the law.

(42:06):
Because uh and so I read aboutthis in the good old free
newspaper, Capital Gay, when Icame out of Benji's the gay club
on the corner of my land andread about it uh and that was I
think December.
Uh December 1987.

(42:27):
And there was going to be amarch in January, early January,
and I knew I knew I had to beon that march.
I didn't discuss it with Paul,I didn't discuss it with anyone,
and I went into work the weekthat it was leading up, um, and
I was called on the Saturday forrehearsals, the day of the

(42:50):
march.
And I went up to the two actorsthat I was doing the scenes
with and said, Can we reorganizethe Saturday rehearsals so that
I get off early?
And they went, Yeah, yeah,yeah.
June Brown, who played Dot.
Oh, yeah, of course, Mike,don't worry, dear, we can do
that.
Um and and and um and Wendy,who played Pauline, uh Pauline
Fowler, uh Wendy Richards, shewent, Yeah, of course we can do

(43:12):
that.
Anyway, I got there, and ofcourse.
Did you try and get them to gowith you?
Well, strange, uh I I didn't,but actually much later, all of
them, apart from two castmembers who I've never named.
Interesting.
Um, all of them apart from twocame in right behind us and
supported us.

(43:32):
So so I got into work and andJune Brown, uh, this wonderful
One Nation Tory, said, Leave itwith me back, dear.
I'll go and see Bill.
Go and see Bill.
Bill was the director, and shegot me about two and a half
hours off.
So I jumped on the train, shewent, now don't get arrested.
We've got scenes to rehearselater, dear.

(43:54):
So I jumped on the train, wentdown, and thereafter I didn't
look back.

James (44:00):
Were you were you doing it I I mean, I'm sure I'm sure
had you not been in the publiceye at that point, you would
have done it anyway.
Did you do it knowing that thethe position that you held, that
the fact that you could drawattention did you do it knowing
that that was going to help thecause or hopefully help, or did
you just do it because you knewit was the thing you wanted to
do?

Michael (44:20):
I did it because honestly, I knew if I didn't, I
wouldn't be able to look myselfin the face again.
I couldn't, as a gay man, go ontelevision twice a week, repeat
episodes on a Sunday, make aliving out of that, and throw

(44:46):
away my principles and myintegrity?
No, because then as an actor,let alone a human being, that's
all you have.
And you know what?
Years later, when my dad phonedme, uh I'd been in a program, I
did a program aboutdiscrimination against gay and

(45:07):
lesbians and where it came from.
And yeah, my mum always phonedme.
I could have raised a flag andthey would have said, We love
you, brilliant.
No, but they would have said,brilliant, brilliant, son.
And he rang me the next day andhe said, I want to tell you I'm
proud of you.
And I said, Yeah, yeah, you youtold me last night.
And he said, There was a long,long pause, and he said, and I

(45:29):
love you.
And that was the first time Iactually heard my dad say, I
love you.
And I I I think that that wasthe day he realized that if he'd
been gay and he'd been in thesame situation with the same
circumstances, he would havedone exactly the same.

(45:51):
And that's why I went on themarch.
Um and and that night when Iwas on uh the day of the march,
I was on the news, and he turnedto my mum and he went, I don't
mind him being gay, but does hehave to go on the bleeding news
about it?
Um so it wasn't an easy optionfor them.
It and it wasn't an easy optionfor my brothers with their kids

(46:15):
at school, my other twobrothers.
But did any of them ever putpressure on me or give me a word
of regret or reproach?
Absolutely not.
And so getting involved in thatcampaign and finding myself
along with others like uh IanMcKellen, uh Lisa Power,

(46:38):
spokespeople, we weren'tspokespeople.
We were speaking out againstsomething that we thought was
wrong.
And interestingly, going backto AIDS and HIV, and why I think
the government saw it as abrilliant opportunity, was I
don't think they reckoned onpeople coming out.
Because to come out as a gayman, particularly, or as a

(47:02):
bisexual man, was to besynonymous with being HIV
positive.
So their gamble was, I thinktheir political gamble was, no,
they'll go underground, whichwas precisely where they were
pushing us and where thoseforces that are coming back
today are still trying to forceus.

(47:24):
Beginning with the migrants,beginning with women who don't
know their place, who cannothave the right to choose,
beginning with trans.
That's exactly why they'recoming back, because they
believe they can force usunderground, because underground
is where we can live a betterlife, away from the sun.

(47:44):
And so, and so that campaignhad strength because people came
out, and by coming out, weruined the stereotype that was
represented as the threat to thefamily and a threat to
children.
And the campaign was largelysuccessful because Ian uh

(48:06):
McKellen, it was interesting.
I uh I was known to be a Laboursupporter, so the Tories
wouldn't really have much to dowith me, although some in the
Labour Party didn't want to havemuch to do with me either.
I I remember when Ian and Iturned up after the debate uh
around section 28, and I won'tname him because he's become a

(48:28):
friend, but he looked at me andhe knew I'd been agitating
behind the behind the scenesabout the Labour Party's
position on clause 28, orsection 28 as we call it.
And then he looked at Ian andhe went, ah, Ian, a real actor,
and then looked at me.
I thought you can't put medown.
I've had professionals do it.

(48:49):
Um and uh and so what we did,Ian did rather cleverly, was he
was pulled over towards theTories because they thought he
was posh and he went toCambridge, so he must be one of
them.
And Ian, uh with along with thepolitical advice that we were
all given, uh argued for theinsertion of a keyword, and that

(49:13):
was intention.
And so the the legislation reada local author authority shall
not promote homosexuality.
It now reads a local a localauthority shall not
intentionally promote.
Uh, but I go back to we keptsaying, tell us what your

(49:33):
definition of promotion is.
And because it said a localauthority, and this is where a
huge swell of non-LGBTsupporters came behind us,
because actually a localauthority has libraries, it has
theaters, concert halls.
Are you saying that you can'tperform the works of
Tchaikovsky?

(49:54):
Uh, you can't have the books ofGenet, uh Oscar Wilde, the
bisexual sonnets of Shakespeare.
Um and so therefore, thisnarrow little uh focus that the
Tories had with their silverbullet didn't hit its target,

(50:15):
went everywhere else but, and itgave birth, I think, to a
modern gay movement that waswoken up because we'd been
seduced by the pubs and theclubs, and even our back rooms
and our saunas.
The sense that we belongedbecause of the licentiousness.

(50:36):
Utter commercial crap.

James (50:41):
But and and I think that I'd very much agree with you.
I think also the sense of,well, we can now come out to our
parents, we can live sort ofthe lives that we want to live
and that we hope to live withpartners, and and and so
therefore everything's kind ofbroadly there.
And and and clearly there's alot to go.
Um maybe we're sort of or havebeen lulled into that false

(51:06):
sense of security in recentyears, not maybe right now, but
in maybe five years ago, tenyears ago, when we had equal
marriage, we had um civilpartnerships, all these things
had come in.
And maybe there was a sense of,well, we've achieved what we
wanted to achieve.
Because if you look at itthrough a narrow lens of
legislative equality, maybe itwas sort of there, still big

(51:29):
gaps, but maybe sort of there.
But it was the hearts and mindsthat were not that that hadn't
been transformed.
And and but there was a senseof taking foot off the gas and
saying, Well, we don't need todo this, we can go back to
party.

Michael (51:42):
I I agree with you, but I I I don't it's not in the
past tense, it it's in thepresent tense.
Yeah, uh people uh there is asense of listen, they're
attacking trans, that's gotnothing to do with us, right?
Um we've got equal marriage.
Uh we can have our kids as longas we keep our heads down uh uh

(52:05):
amongst the school governors.
No, you precisely have what youhave because people died in
terrifying isolation.
Oscar Wilde in Manicles waswalked through London onto a
train into Reading jail becauseof whom he loved and because it
dared in error to go public.

(52:28):
The rights we have, we don't,this notion that we stand on the
shoulders of giants.
We do not.
We stand on the shoulders ofordinary men and women who
actually had the courage tospeak out, the courage to stand
up and say, no, you can't saythat.
You're talking about my son,you're talking about my

(52:48):
daughter, the organization thatthere is the flag of which I'm a
patron, and I'm not sayingsaying it about the organization
because of that, but the powerof that organization that over
30 years came into being becauseof section 28, its power is
that when you attack the familyusing LGBT people, they say,

(53:13):
You're talking about my familyand my gay son, my trans
daughter.
And and that's why every time agay couple says or a lesbian
couple say, I do, they aresaying that because thousands of
generations could not.

(53:34):
And it's precisely because ofthat, that that you don't you
don't relinquish rights, youdon't dilute rights, you you
know, I I I remember thebrilliant organization that I,
along with Ian McKellen and LisaPower and and others founded,

(53:55):
Stonewall, when Stonewall wasumming and awring about whether
it supported equal marriage,because there were some who
didn't believe in theheteronormative approach.
I'm surprised I can even sayit, let alone look it up in a
dictionary to find out what itmeans.
But my my my message to themwas what do you not understand

(54:17):
about the definition ofequality?
Equality means you have theright to opt in or opt out.
And if you opt in, and again,this is what a lot of people
don't understand by equality,they pose equal rights as a
threat.
No, equality actuallyreinforces the rights of others,

(54:38):
because with equality comes theequal obligation to abide by
the same laws and the samerules.
That's what they leave out ofthe equation.
Um so so that the the notionthat uh of contempt of of
keeping quiet, like they wantedus to do around AIDS and HIV, so

(55:02):
that those men and women didn'tgo on the streets in New York
and in London, the outragedidn't stand up and try to
arrest the Archbishop ofCanterbury.
Um all of those things, uhthose happenings, those single
voices, uh why we have what wehave now.

James (55:26):
But I think that what we've not appreciated is how
fragile what we have now is, andhow we need to keep fighting to
keep what we have and to keepmoving forward.

Michael (55:37):
Well, it's you know the only reason I want to get older
at the age of s 74 is I longfor a threat to come from outer
space so that this worldrealizes it's not a whole range

(55:59):
of separate countries, it's oneentity.
And then we get back perhaps tothe Lenin concept of no
borders, um that we are allmigrants, um uh uh and that we
we then have that sense thatactually you don't have to live

(56:21):
with the other, but live besidethe other.

James (56:25):
In a strange way, COVID pandemic kind of sort of did
that for a fleeting moment, madeus all realise, oh, we are
actually all a community comingtogether to fight this thing,
whatever it is, and of course itwas terrible in many ways, but
that sense of community that itdeveloped was was was really
fascinating and interesting.
In it almost in a way thatevaporated almost immediately
afterwards, sadly.

Michael (56:46):
But but look at those, you know, look at those who
said, oh, but actually the no,the vaccine doesn't work.
So those deniers, the deniers,um uh uh and so the uh and we
have to remember the attack onrights is never an attack on
rights because of us.
They say, no, no, it it'sbecause we need to protect

(57:09):
others.
You know, what Trump is doinguh and continues to do um with
with removing diversity andinclusion and equality programs
is is actually uh a raw versionof what we normally get.
Uh completely opposed becausedon't believe in any of it.

(57:33):
You you're either one of us oryou're not.
It's that political uh uh idea.
It's thatcherism in ascendance.
If you're not one of us, uhthen you you're you're the
enemy.
But the the attack on rights,whether it's the rights of
people because of theirreligion, their uh ability,
their belief, whatever, it isalways based on protecting

(57:57):
others.
Uh and the number of timespeople uh would say, oh, but
you're different uh becauseyou're not like them, are you?
You're you're you know, or oryou're in a relationship, you've
got someone.
It's it's it's the notion ofpainting someone who's different
as a threat that allows them tolegitimize the removal of your

(58:20):
rights because it's to protectother people, and you've got to
put up with it.

Jonathan (58:24):
The number of rooms during Brexit that I would sit
in where people were talkingabout the migrant issue.
And I would say, but but I'm amigrant.
I I moved here 20 years ago.
My grandmother was Scottish,which is how I got here, which
is a quite a nebulousconnection, right?
And they're like, oh no, no, wedon't mean you.
We don't mean you.
Yep.
Um, we mean those other people.

(58:46):
I think people have an idea ofinstitutions, um, particularly
advocacy institutions, that theyoften start in these very grand
circumstances.
And I would love to hear aboutthe start of Stonewall, because
I believe it's like manyactivist institutions actually
are, it's quite a small, humblebeginning that then became

(59:09):
probably the leading advocacyorganization in the UK.

Michael (59:12):
Well, we we because of the success of winning the
arguments against uh the uhanti-LGB law, uh, first in a
hundred years, we have to remindourselves.
Um that we won the arguments,we won the debates.
Uh and there's some wonderfularchive that I've just been

(59:33):
going through of when uh one ofthe proponents of uh section 28,
uh Jill Knight, uh, was askedto give evidence.
She said, Oh, oh, oh, well, Iwasn't told I would have to
bring it, and I had to come herein a in a hurry, so I don't
have any examples.
Couldn't even remember uh anexample.
So having won all the thehaving won the arguments and

(59:55):
having found how to uh just Bedirect and honest with the
media.
I remember a week after the thelaw went through in 1988, May
1988, and I rang Ian McKellen,and Ian lived down on uh on the

(01:00:15):
river at Limehouse.
Um and and Paul and I were upat Mile End, and I said, Ian,
you know, we we've got to forman organization so another
section 28 doesn't happen again,and ran through all of the
arguments.
And Ian politely listened, uh,and then a week later said rang

(01:00:37):
me and said, My darling, I thinkyou should come down.
Uh Douglas is here, DouglasSlater, and he has exactly the
same idea.
Now I don't I don't think itwas because Douglas also went to
Cambridge that Ian listened tohim uh uh and and not to the

(01:00:58):
rantings of the the secondarymodern uh dropout.
Um but um and Duncan uh sorryuh Douglas Slater was um sadly
no no longer with us.
Um but uh he'd been he workedin the Chief Whip's office, the

(01:01:18):
the Conservative government's uhChief Whip's office in the
House of Lords, and uh and hewas our mole on what was going
on uh in in the government.
So so Douglas, who is actually,if you go to the Queer Museum,
there's the founding document ofuh uh of Stonewall, uh signed
by six of us or seven of usafter a boozy lunch.

(01:01:40):
And Douglas, who'd equally uhhad imbibed on the lunch, um,
signed it, but but because hewasn't known to be out as an
activist, put his name in inbrackets as if people wouldn't
notice.
Um and um and so that was thebeginning, uh, and and it was

(01:02:03):
very much a matter of goingthrough the people we knew, the
people we'd worked with.
Um uh and that's why um JennyWilson uh and Lisa Power sprung
up immediately.
They they'd been around theOrganization for Lesbian and Gay
Action, um, and and Lisa, uhwhom I uh I didn't know before,

(01:02:27):
had spent a lifetime insweatshop and activism.
Uh uh and then uh and and I sayLisa and Jenny because that was
crucial, because it stoppedbeing a group of men, forming a
group of men to fight forequality, which would have been
one particular view of equality,bringing in Deborah Baylard and

(01:02:52):
uh and Deborah from the uh fromfrom the arts lobby, which was
a group uh of uh uh LGBT uh LGBTplus and non-LGBT uh artist
creators who used to cometogether during the Section 28
uh months.
Uh so Deborah uh was was a uhDeborah Ballard was a part of

(01:03:13):
that group, and bringing thosewomen in, uh Fiona Cunningham
Reed, a filmmaker, her coming inas well, these were crucial.
Pam Clement joined us.
Uh, and these were crucial inthat it was lesbians and gay men
coming together and uh and thenquietly being sent off to to

(01:03:35):
get the articles of associationdrawn up to get the way uh a
charitable arm of theorganization would work, because
in those days you couldn'targue for political change and
be a charitable uh organization.
So we spent about a yearquietly setting it up, going
from uh one person's sittingroom to another.

(01:03:59):
Uh I remember Ian at one pointlooking up, and he used to have
a lovely well-stocked uh winerack or wine racks in his
kitchen, and he looked up and hesaid, get an oh, there's none
left.
That's where activism gets you.
And we drank him dry.
Um but but we went frombasically three houses, Ian's in

(01:04:21):
Narrow Street, uh Lisa andJenny's in Badette Road, and me
and Paul in Mile End.
In that crazy little East Endtriangle, Stonewall was given
its birth.
And uh and it was also crucialthat we made what we brought in

(01:04:42):
uh some conservative uh peoplethat were known to be
conservative supporters, so itwasn't seen as merely just
another brilliant low, thatwould be another another uh
left-wing approach to solving uhthe problems of inequality.
And and that was the beginning.
Uh, and we had no money.
Our remit was that that it hadto be run by equal numbers of uh

(01:05:06):
women and men.
That was there in the uh theArticles of Association, that we
wouldn't take any public money,so so the we had to raise the
money to get uh to get the moneyso that we could have uh an
executive director.
And we put on a an amazingbenefit, uh one night only of

(01:05:29):
Bent by Martin Sherman, becausewe thought that said it all
really, uh, about where silenceleads you, where as they loaded
up the gay men and the tradeunionists and the gypsies and
the Jews, nobody said anythinguntil there were millions that
had gone.

(01:05:49):
And that powerful reminder,brilliantly directed by Sean
Matthias, uh, one night only atthe uh the Adelphi Theatre, and
we were still rehearsing, and Isay this because it's important
for me as a gay man to recognisethis: that we were still
rehearsing at ten past seven,the audience due to come in at
half past.
The the house manager ran inand said, Uh, Mr.

(01:06:11):
Matthias, Mr.
Matthias, you must stoprehearsing.
You must allow me to bring inthe audience and sure when get
out.
Anyway, he went out.
Five minutes later, he came in.
He said, Mr.
Matthias, we have to open thetheatre.
The police have demanded it.
The West End traffic has cometo a halt because the crowd had

(01:06:32):
swelled out onto the road, andthe last time that had happened
had been for Judy Garland whenshe appeared at the Dominion.
I felt rather proud.
Amazing.
And we raised uh 35, we made35,000 pounds.
That was 1989, and uh, and thatgave us enough money to hire

(01:06:56):
our first executive director,get a tiny office move from
somebody's bedroom, PeterAshman's uh bedroom in in
Islington, uh, to uh uh a alittle a tiny room uh in
Strutton Ground, Victoria, sothat we could say we had
Westminster offices.
Um and Cameron Macintosh, who Iwent to see, uh and asked him

(01:07:22):
to give us money towards theproduction costs.
Um, he gave us 5,000 towardsour production costs, and I told
him how much we'd made, andnobody else had matched his
generosity.
And within the space of a fewdays, another check for 5,000
came and it said, Well, nowyou've covered your production
costs.
Um that's what section 28 did.

(01:07:46):
It made us decide where wewanted to be uh amongst the
silent, silent, hidden,luxuriating mob that wouldn't be
worried about inequality, orthose who actually could step
forward and say, No, we're allin this, we're all doing it.

James (01:08:06):
We're coming, I'm afraid, rapidly to the end of our time,
but a lot of what you'vedescribed is in my mind sadly
feels very reminiscent of wherewe are now politically in many
respects.
And you've talked about Trumpand you've talked about DEI
attacks and attacks on trans andasylum seekers and others.
But I think at the same time,people are also losing

(01:08:26):
confidence in politics and inthe political process to protect
our community, minoritycommunities, and others.
And if you ask young people, apoll came out recently, they
said they'd be quite happy witha dictator in charge.
Um, and all of this feels veryscary and a very scary place to

(01:08:47):
land.
What are your feelings aboutwhere we are now and and where
we're going and moreimportantly, what we need to do
about it?
Okay.
How we get motivated andactivised.

Michael (01:08:58):
First of all, the best prime ministers operate when
they are dictators becausethey're by and large, they
should reach agreements thateverybody else and decisions
that everybody else agree with.
And where there is dissent, thedissent is recognized.
Politics is in a bad placebecause we we don't allow

(01:09:22):
politicians the luxury to fail.
And if we want success, we haveto allow people to get it wrong
and to be able to say that forall the best intentions they
didn't get it right.
You know, I I I look at my oldprofession, and some say,
watching me in the House ofHouse of Lords, I haven't left

(01:09:42):
it, my old acting profession.
How do we achieve excellencethat we put on the stage by
going into a room where we'reencouraged to make mistakes,
encouraged to try somethingdifferent?
If we really want this world tochange, we've got to empower
people and give them the licenseto get it wrong.
But the demand to be honestabout getting it wrong.

(01:10:06):
I think the institutions ofgovernment have failed around
the world.
Um capitalism cannot care andis now seen at its boldest as
not caring.
Can we change that overnight?
No.
I don't want to argue for myrights.

(01:10:30):
I want to argue for everybodyelse's because I think that's
the only way that we can goforward.
I think we're back to where wewere because for far too long
one is played off against theother.
That we can afford housing, butwe but we can't afford to house

(01:10:51):
people.
Bullshit.
Uh we we need billionaires inorder that we can have people
earning the minimum wagebollocks.
Uh let's look at a system thathas a degree of redistribution
at its heart, but crucially uh asense of relationship to the

(01:11:14):
other.
Why do I get uh so passionateabout uh what's happening to uh
trans people?
Well, because my historyreminds me that it's not very
long ago in my own lifetime thatexactly the same was said of
me.
Me as a threat by being who Iam, but by wanting to live by

(01:11:37):
the same laws as others.
It makes absolutely no sense.
And they're allowed to get awaywith it because of the
misinformation peddled again byone of the great institutions,
the press and the media.
So we have to challenge thelies, but more importantly, we
can only go forward.

(01:11:58):
And again, it's something Iwill I go back to time and time
again, which is the courage tostand in the shoes of the other.
I do a lot of work on asylumand immigration and refugees as
as well as other things in inthe parliament.
And and I say, imagine you arethat woman with your child in

(01:12:23):
your arms and your tall, spindly17-year-old son who actually
looks 25 because he's Syrian.
Imagine you're that woman withyour family about to step into
that dinghy, not at thebeginning of your journey, but
at the end of a very, very longjourney.

(01:12:47):
Imagine you are that woman andwhat happens to that family.
And if you wouldn't want it tohappen to you, then how dare you
allow it to happen to others?
And that, the defense of theother, ending the othering, the
culture war encouraged byJohnson, let leash by Breverman

(01:13:13):
and Badinock, and those silentand terrified on the left who
would not challenge it.
Um all of that has grown ininto the brashness and the
hooliganism that we see fromTrump and Vance, because we've

(01:13:34):
allowed people to be othered.
But if you say no, you cannotdo that to another human being.
I'm not religious, but I defendabsolutely somebody's religious
belief.
I believe in the concept ofresponsibility of the one to the

(01:13:54):
other.
I can't exist on this planetignoring my rights to others,
otherwise I will cease to exist.
So the selfish gene ofbelonging only really works when
you defend other people.
And that for me is thepolitical way forward.

(01:14:15):
I think at the moment theLabour Party hasn't found its
voice, it hasn't found its storyof why it wants power.
And that to me is crucial inall forms of politics.
What's your story?
What do you want with my trust?

(01:14:37):
And by giving you my trust, Iwill allow you to run with it so
long as you keep telling me oroccasionally tell me what the
story is.
Because you know in the endlife is, and politics is life.
Life is a bit like a play.

(01:14:58):
If you haven't got them by theinterval, they won't come back
to you.
Or if they do, they come backnot really convinced that you
can do it.
Open up your story politically.
Tell me why you want us to makethe sacrifices.
But more importantly, allowsomeone who doesn't fit in to

(01:15:24):
fit in by not fitting in.
It's so simple.
Because if I can see it, anyidiot can see it.

Jonathan (01:15:34):
Michael, thank you so much.
It has been such a pleasurehaving you here today.
We are incredibly grateful,both for your time here, but
also for a lifetime of activism.

Michael (01:15:43):
Well, thank you both, and it's been a joy, and I I
just wish we didn't have toremind people of some of the
things that we've had to remindthem about.
Um but having been reminded, mymessage to you listening or
watching is there's no excusenow.
Thank you.

Jonathan (01:16:08):
Thank you for listening to the view from here.
Of course, there's a lot ofpolitics in any movement, but
the political views you've heardacross the series don't
necessarily reflect the views ofthe podcast.

James (01:16:20):
If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider
subscribing and leaving areview, as well as sharing the
word on social media.
Join us next time for morepersonal stories from the front
lines of LGBTQ history.