April 24, 2025 • 38 mins
Grab your favorite drink and join Ron Willett for a laid-back conversation with Eddie DeCurtis from Shush—ClearSky’s partner for Silent Network Authentication. They swap stories about starting a company from scratch, share behind-the-scenes industry insights, and dive into their own friendship. It’s an honest, fun look at what it really takes to build innovative security solutions in telecom.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Ron Ouellette.
Welcome to Whiskey and Wireless.
We're going to sit down withindustry professionals, have
spirited discussions and talkabout what shaped the wireless
industry and why we are where weare today and where we're going
to be tomorrow.
So, downtown Orlando, I'mparked right down there, right,
(00:22):
I can't find my key to my car.
Like, my car starts and it goes, but I don't know where my key
is because I paid my son todetail my car and I have no idea
where he put the key.
So, as I'm doing this, I'mconcentrating on you because I
care about you, but I have noidea if my car is going to be
(00:42):
there when I get back.
And the question for you is yougrew up in alphabet city.
How long would that car bethere, knowing that all you have
to do is get in and push thebutton and drive away?
I can't lock it.
Two seconds, two seconds.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So after the guy stole it, by the time he got to
his lot to the light, the wheelswill be off the car.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, and so I'm a little preoccupied with the fact
that I may not have a car whenI walk back down there.
Well, maybe so from AlphabetCity to wireless.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, it was more Greenwich Village, but yeah, not
too far.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, I'm from Florida, I don't know the
difference between that.
So how'd that happen?
How'd I get?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
to what that?
So how'd that happen?
How'd I get to what?
Wireless To wireless?
Oh, I was in a nightclubbusiness in New York City that's
not surprising and I met a girl.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
That's also not surprising.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
She lived in LA and one day she woke up and she said
move to LA with me.
And I said sure, so we get inthe car.
I have $1,500 in my pocket.
This is 1993-ish, I get $1,500in my pocket that I borrowed.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
That I borrowed.
That wasn't yours.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
And we got in a Toyota Celica and drove to LA.
We had an apartment.
The apartment was $900 a monthin a very nice area right around
the corner from the BeverlyCenter.
It was a really, really prettyarea, probably not $900 a month,
right now, no, no, no, and I'mlike I got to get a job right.
(02:19):
It's like I got to get a jobbecause she's in the film
industry and she was a makeupartist.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Okay, Cause I was making.
I was making assumptions for asecond, but it's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
She was a makeup artist and I'm like I have to
find a job.
So a friend of mine, a friendof ours, like knew a guy in the
paging resale.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Oh my.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
God, paging, paging resale business and I went to
work for one of his friends,right, I went to work for them
in the paging and I was running,like you know, the paging
service that they did out of theback of like a pawn shop.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So I was the cool kid right, so I had a pager that
you would call and a live personwould answer.
So I eventually got there.
I eventually did.
No, I was huge, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
They would resell the service for a company called
Paget and at the time Paget wasprobably the fastest growing
paging company.
So I went to work for them inLA and I had a knack for the
computer systems and I knew thecomputer systems and it just
came to me so we broke up.
Of course that didn't work out.
(03:27):
It didn't work out.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Let's take a drink.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, drink to that, that's hearty.
We didn't work out and I wasliving in LA and I didn't like
it.
I'm a New York kid through andthrough.
Yeah, even now they have anoffice in New York and the
office was upgrading to thecomputer system.
So there was a role for methere.
So I went back to New York.
I went to work for them in NewYork City in True World Trade
(03:53):
Center.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Really Yep, and I always had my apartment in New
York, so it wasn't like Icouldn't find a place to live or
I always had everything right.
So I went to work for them andthen, believe it or not, because
of another girl, I she why dowe keep?
She lived in I don't know.
She lived in Dallas and that'swhere their corporate
headquarters were.
And again they.
(04:15):
It was getting to the pointwhere the people at corporate
would call me to figure out howto fix the billing system that
we were working on in theactivation system.
And I got a phone call one dayand they said would you want to
move to Dallas and come work atcorporate in Plano in the
application support department?
Well, I was already dating agirl from Dallas.
(04:36):
She was coming back and forth,I was going back and forth, so I
was always there and I loveDallas.
I always thought Dallas was agreat city.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So I moved to Dallas and I worked in and I went to
work for.
Pagenet and I was in the page,and that woman became your wife.
No, okay, darn it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Then we broke up.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Oh, it's always hard.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
It's always hard.
And then we broke up and, um, Ilove Dallas, I wouldn't move.
I, I mean, I fell in love withDallas, had a great apartment
and one night I was out, I wasin a nightclub with a buddy of
mine and my wife walked in andthis is the God's honest true
story.
My wife walks in and my wife isthe typical, what you expect of
(05:18):
a Texas woman.
She was 5'11", blonde hair,built like a brick, shik-tag,
you know, legs that went fromher hip to her feet, and she
walks in and she was wearing adouble-breasted leather jacket
that's it, and high-heeled shoesand her hair was all over.
And I turned to my buddy and Igo.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
That's my future wife , I love that, I love that, and
he goes no way.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I said that's my future wife.
I go watch this.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So I walk over Throwing full 100% Eddie New
York on her.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, she walks by me .
As she's walking by me, I gohow you doing.
Oh, you did.
I swear to God, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Oh my God, you owe Matt LaBlock like 58 cents or
something, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
We are married on the 4th of April.
We are married on the 4th ofApril.
We will be married 29 years.
As she's walking past me, Iwent, how you doing, how you
doing, and she went.
I swear to God, she went illand she kept walking.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
She probably would still say that she kept walking.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So when she's coming back, I go come here, come here,
come here.
I want to talk to you.
She goes what?
I go.
You're looking good in thatoutfit.
I go, but you need to bewearing something like this.
She goes well, how do you knowwhat I should be wearing?
I go.
I'm a gay fashion designer, Iknow these things.
That's your pickup line, thatwas my pickup line Wow.
So my wife always says how didyou meet your husband?
(06:37):
He goes, he told me he was gay,yeah Right.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So we started talking .
We started talking.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
We started talking and I was like, give me your
number, I'll give you a call.
She goes, when are you going tocall me?
So I said I'll call youtomorrow.
I don't know, 1 o'clock shegoes.
All right, you call me tomorrowat 1 o'clock.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well, the next day at 1 o'clock I'm like I can't call
15 minutes so she thinks I'mgoing to.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
and she sat there on the old remember the old
answering machines with the tape, oh yeah, yeah, and she just
watched me leave a message.
Oh, that's awesome.
So I.
Finally she calls me back andsaid let's get together for
dinner.
She's gorgeous, right, let'sget together for dinner, let's.
You know, you don't understand.
29 years later, when she saysshe has to do laundry, she has
to do laundry.
It's impossible.
(07:25):
A person creates that muchlaundry, that much laundry, yeah
yeah.
So I said how bad could it be?
Why don't you meet me at eighto'clock and we'll go have dinner
?
She stood me up for two hoursand I waited.
She like shows up at 10 o'clockthinking I'm still there.
And I was still there waitingfor her.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
You were still there waiting.
Look at that.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And we've been together ever since.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
That's beautiful, and I've met her.
She's great.
Yeah, she's a great woman, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
DC last year.
I think she's great.
Yeah, no this year.
Yeah this year.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
That's right, she's great.
And then into wireless.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, so I was with Paget and then my buddy went
over to Austria to work for JohnKluge, who used to own
Metromedia, which is Span theWorld at one time, and he owned
Metromedia International.
Metromedia International was apartnership with Western
Wireless and they owned allthese wireless companies all
over the former Soviet Union andof course, paging and radio and
(08:24):
cable and all that.
So I got my experience on theinternational scene because
right after we got married onApril 4th in 1998, we moved May
to Austria.
I mean it was like I went onthe interview on a honeymoon
when I was on my honeymoon-.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
So a New York bar guy living in Austria, new York bar
guy living in Austria.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
We had a great time.
Then we moved back and then Ithat's when I got heavily,
heavily into wireless.
But that's where I learned.
I started learning the whole.
There's a big differencebetween pager billing and
wireless billing, right, andthat's where I kind of learned
all that.
And then I went to work.
I came back, I went to work fora company called Global
(09:03):
Mobility Systems.
Right, I was there for a weekand they fired half the company,
changed the name to AppMobileand we were the hottest startup.
We were the last dot-comcompany that sold for $428
million.
We were the last one before thebubble blew.
So that's 2000.
Oh, that's 2000.
No, I left in 1999.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
1999,.
Yeah, yeah, Because they gotbought out by software.
Oh that's 2000.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
No, I left in 1999.
1999.
Yeah, yeah, Because they gotbought out.
They got bought out bysoftwarecom, which became
OpenWave.
Right, softwarecom merged withphonecom and became OpenWave,
and that was the last of the bigbubbles, so phonecom.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So at the time I was married and my wife worked at a
place called partscom.
Okay, and guess what they did?
They sold auto parts, right,partscom.
And there was a big conventionhere in orlando.
It's a big auto show, whateverpartscom, they had girls at the
booth, they had balloons,whatever planes flying banners,
and she had stock.
(09:59):
And that stock was at and I'mmaking up numbers now but that
stock was at like 10 percent ofa penny and then all of a sudden
the stock goes up to like twodollars, like like we're, we're
rich on paper but you can't sell.
For a year it goes up to twodollars and through that was at
like day seven of our 365 dayswe had to wait and it wasn't
(10:21):
like it just fell overnight,like each day we would wake up
and it'd be a little bit less.
And by the time 365 days came,we were not wealthy so this is.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
This is so at.
Mobile gets purchased bysoftware dot com for four
hundred twenty six milliondollars.
Software dot com was a publiclytraded company.
The stock goes up thirty sixdollars the day they made the
announcement.
Oh my goodness.
It just so happened I had allthis equity and I was having a
meeting with Merrill Lynch andI'm with my wife and we walk in
(10:55):
to the Merrill and they justmade the announcement the stock
goes through the roof.
Now I actually have some realmoney, like real money, right.
So I walk into Merrill Lynchand I'm sitting in one of those
you know four-seat fakeconference rooms.
You know that only have like around table.
And the guy goes.
I said, well, listen, when Imade this appointment, this is
(11:17):
before something happened thismorning.
He goes, what happened?
I go my company was justacquired and now this stock,
these stock grants, are actuallyworth something.
And the guy goes wouldn't it beexciting if you were that
company that got bought out bysoftwarecom?
I go, I actually am not.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Five minutes later, we're in the big conference and
some executive vice president ofprivate wealth in there.
They knock down the fake wallsand they're like, hey, come on
in and we laugh to this dayabout that.
No, it was crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
It was a crazy time to be in the space, but what it
got me was I actually workedwith these guys who started the
industry, like a guy by the nameof Mike Berman who worked for
Craig McCore and Couser and allthese guys, jerry Wojcik, who
literally wrote IS-41B thatallowed for global like US
(12:09):
roaming right, these guys werethe catalyst for what this
industry has become, right, Imean-.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And just look back and it's only been 25 years.
That's a crazy thing.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Randy Schneider invented like that, wrote the
book not invented wrote the bookon SS7.
These are the guys who taughtme the industry and I'm like
great story Sunit Lothra.
He invented the HLR, theexternal HLR, when he worked at
Sprint and when we had thisproduct and service.
I'll never forget some guysarguing with me about the way
(12:45):
something works and I said, well, let me get my CTO and maybe he
can answer your question,because I don't think we're
agreeing right.
So I grabbed Suneet, I goSuneet, can you help me here?
And the guy goes into the thingand Suneet goes it doesn't work
that way, it works this.
And he goes through the wholething and the guy goes to Sidney
.
How do you know?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Sidney goes.
I invented it.
I was like he was waiting forthat question.
I think maybe he paid the guy,I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
But I was like yeah, so I was very blessed coming up
in the industry to work withsome of these guys who are
Everything, everybody, all thesehundreds of thousands of
employees that work for thesewireless companies in the United
States and outside the UnitedStates have their careers based
on the guys who taught me theindustry, and that's what's so
(13:38):
cool, you know, and the factthat you started overseas too.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
So even now I kind of struggle with the fact that our
expertise is in the US and inthe Caribbean.
The North American numberingplan right.
So we're a big North Americannumbering plan, and then you've
got to step out of that andthink about Europe and think
about Asia and think about howit works, which is different
than how it works over here.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
We're getting a lot closer to what they have done,
but it took us a long time.
Remember, we had disparagingnetworks, we had TDMA.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
We done, but it took us a long time.
Remember we had disparagingnetworks.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
We had TDMA, we had CDMA, we had GSM and then
everything started converging.
I mean, I remember when I wasgoing to a CTIA conference, I
kid you not.
I remember getting off theplane and I had a.
I don't know how I heard, but Iremember hearing AT&T was going
to move to GSM and I thought Iwas shocked, shocked.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, yeah that was big news.
That was huge news.
Yeah, and Verizon was CDMA,CDMA and it was.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
CDMA forever and then eventually, when LTE came out,
everybody's on the sametechnology.
Then it all brings it all back.
Yeah, it all merges in.
So best conference you talkedabout ctia.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
we had some great conferences, yeah that's a good
erickson had and nortel hadgreat parties.
Yeah, so, so my you know we, weplay a lot of games when I
travel right and everybody doesright, because it's the only way
to stop from the insanity.
We just had a bunch of peoplefrom clear sky came down and and
they're a bunch of technicalpeople and people that aren't
used to traveling and they hadto sleep in airports, get
delayed, like all that stuff,and I was like you know, you see
(15:15):
my post about, hey, I'm inbarcelona or hey, I'm in here,
but it's really not that thatgreat like there.
There are bumps that happenalong the way, so you got to
play games, you got to, you know, do whatever.
So we're sitting in a ctia onetime and back then ctia happened
at the same time as the pornconvention.
Yes, the adult, adult video.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I'm sorry, yes, the adult video awards.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And so we sat in a room, and on the right hand side
was ctia that's where all thepeople for ctia at the party and
on the left hand side was theporn awards right for that year.
And me and god, who was it?
He was the ceo of some wirelessin west virginia.
I don't remember who it was,but we sat on a.
(15:58):
We sat on a couch and we saidlet's play the easiest game we
will ever play in our lives.
When someone walks in the frontdoor, we're're going to guess
what they're going to go.
We're going to guess whatthey're going to go left or
right, and it was by far theeasiest game we have ever played
in our lives.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I can tell you a couple of games we used to play
in Singapore and a few otherplaces.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Those games are different.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
But it was just like that we would sit there and bet
on.
You know what's going to happennext.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
And it was a lot of fun yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
But no CTIA used to have.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I mean unbelievably great, huge, gigantic shows.
I watched Bill Clinton andGeorge Bush together do the
keynote.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Do you remember that one?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I remember that one, and what was it Bill Clinton
said?
My penalty for winningpresidency is now I have to be
the straight man for George Bush.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And it was.
They were great together.
They were.
But I used to remember we.
The thing was.
I was like why would they putit in New Orleans, or why would
they put it in?
Well, we outgrew Orlando, weoutgrew.
Atlanta.
We outgrew everything, andthere's only two places in the
country you could have it.
One was New Orleans and theother one was Vegas.
That was it.
(17:14):
It was absolutely out ofcontrol.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
It was so big.
It was so New Orleans.
I talk about travel a bit andNew Orleans is always special to
me because it was and I'll makeup the but it was 1, 45, 2
o'clock, 2, 15, whatever it was.
And this is a good, this is agood.
Guys, are guys right?
We're just big, dumb animals.
(17:38):
That's all we are, and thankgoodness we have women in our
lives most of the time.
So we're, we're walking downwhat's the big street, new
orleans?
Oh, um, bourbon street, bourbonstreet.
We're walking Bourbon Streetand I'm walking with this guy,
denny, that used to work with us, and there's a dildo on the
street right, just sitting onthe street, 2 o'clock.
So I kick it, then he walksover and he kicks it and then we
(18:01):
all start kicking it.
Next thing, you know, we have athree on three and we're
playing dildo soccer in themiddle of Bourbon Street at
three o'clock in the morning.
And this is where it getsinteresting.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
There's a side it wasn't interesting before.
No, no, this is nothing.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Then there's a sidewalk right, so I kick it and
the dildo goes into thesidewalk.
A guy walking on the sidewalkkicks it back in, and then a guy
on my team kicks it into thegoal.
Andny's like, hey, that doesn'tcount.
I was like, what do you mean?
It doesn't count.
He's like, well, that guykicked it.
Now, apparently, in the 18minutes that we've been playing
(18:34):
dildo soccer, there's a dildosoccer federation with rules and
I broke the rules I'm likethere's a rule that says that he
can't kick it.
What are you talking about?
So I'm actually banned from thedsf soccer federation?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I can't participate in it anymore.
I can see that happening.
I can definitely see thathappening, and that's New
Orleans, that's New Orleans.
So yeah, ctia was a blast itused to be great, and the
parties at Erickson and Norteland Lucent, and being able to
get into them and you would walkto the front door and they'd be
(19:10):
like Eddie, come on in.
You know, it's like it wascrazy.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It was crazy.
It was crazy, it was good times.
Yeah, it was a great time.
So now, so we'll talk aboutsome serious stuff now.
So you and I you know, I try toremember like I met you maybe
and I don't remember we kind ofknew each other.
We were competitors for a while.
Yeah, I was on the interop andI hated you and told people that
(19:35):
you kicked puppies.
I did, yeah, but then we becamefriends and then we became
partners, which has been supercool for me, but for you, you
started Shush.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
When did you start that?
A year ago year.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It's a year and a month, so you're in a month man,
hey, let's take a minute,doesn't matter, we're not out of
time, they're not yelling at usyet.
So so a year ago, and youdecide I've had enough of this,
like I'm gonna do my own thing.
Like, like, how was that?
Wife supportive, everybodysupportive.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So I have tried to do my own thing a couple of times
and they all failedspectacularly.
They should, yes, and my wifewas never supportive of any of
them oh come on.
No, she was like go get a jobGo get a real job yeah yeah, my
wife's, yeah, yeah, but this,she was unbelievably supportive.
(20:32):
And what happened was?
I guess what happened was I'm aNew Yorker, I'm Italian.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Are you?
I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I grew up in a big family, I still have a problem
of not being able to keep mymouth shut.
Haven't noticed that either.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Diarrhea of the mouth .
We were at an MEF, by the way,in Toronto.
Being able to keep my mouthshut.
Haven't noticed that either?
Diarrhea of the mouth?
Yeah, yeah, we were at an MEF,by the way, in Toronto.
And then you can go right backto it.
We were at an MEF in Torontolast year and I was sitting
there and these guys nice guys,I'm sure are on a keynote and
they're talking about something,and then you just I don't even
(21:07):
remember what he said, but the Fword was involved more than
once and you just scream outfrom the audience and I'm like
that's Eddie.
Everybody knows it's Eddie andit was great.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Anyway.
So go ahead, because I justdon't, I don't tolerate bullshit
, yeah Right.
Especially when people don'tknow what they're talking about.
Yeah, so you know, I actuallywas listening to what my
customers were saying.
Now I'm not telling mycustomers what they needed, and
this is as a previous company,and I'm like there is something
(21:41):
here.
Yeah, right, there is a problemin this ecosystem and I think I
could fix it.
And I think I could fix it.
So I sat down, like a normalperson would do, sat down and
wrote out a thesis of what Ibelieved shush should be and how
hard was it for you to be anormal person.
That was difficult, but it tookme a number of days.
(22:01):
It took me a number of days andI wrote this long, five-page
thesis on the vision of thecompany and I.
So people ask me how well do Iknow john donovan?
Well I go.
John donovan's the former ceoof at, of at&t.
How well did?
He used to approve my expensereports.
(22:21):
So how well do you think I know?
yeah, that's pretty good yeah,and john's always been a good
guy to me.
He's's always been like amentor to me and I appreciate it
and I'll never forget.
I called him up.
I called up, I said no, I shothim an email and I said I have
an idea.
Can I have some of your time torun it by you and get some
feedback?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
How important is that ?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
by the way, I thought it was extremely important,
especially because when Johnretired in November of 18, that
was the last time AT&T as acompany was the number one
telecommunications company inthe world.
Wow, think about that.
Yeah, right, they haven't heldthat title since.
What a resume, all right.
(23:02):
So you know, and I'm like youknow, and he's a super smart guy
, you know, and just getting hisfeedback, even if I can get it
for five minutes, was worth.
You know its weight, right, hegave me an hour.
That's incredible, right, it'slike, and I went through it what
(23:23):
was different this time thanevery other time before was
anytime anybody had a questionor challenge, or John goes well,
what about this or what aboutthis?
And I would always have theanswer.
Right, and the answer, whilemay not be exactly what came out
(23:44):
and like in the real world,right, it was close enough that,
enough that he ends theconversation with all right,
here's what you need to do.
I said what he goes you need todo this, but you need to go
raise $30 million.
I forget the exact number, itwas like $30 or $40 million.
Go raise it and own this space,because everybody's going to be
coming for you.
He goes this is a great idea.
(24:06):
Go do this.
And then, of course, I said so,would you like to be, uh, my one
of my advisors on my board,because I'm on nine boards?
I'm too busy for this stuff,right?
No, but I mean it was superawesome that he gave me an hour.
So then you know, but you don'twant to stop at one.
So I called a number ofdifferent mentors.
I have a people I respect inthe industry saying went through
(24:27):
the same process over and overagain a couple of times until I
got that comfort level thatwe're doing the right thing.
So that was in December.
So I did this from December15th to January 2nd.
And then I called my partner,daryl, who you know.
I said I got an idea.
He's like I tell him what it is, he's like I'm in.
And then we incorporated onfebruary 2nd, 2024.
(24:49):
And then I went to mobile worldcongress um, on, uh, on points,
and you know, yeah, yeah on 25points and good looks.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, yeah, points at 25 a night.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Airbnb or not like airbnb?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
whatever your room, whatever your wife would let you
have somebody's peoplesomebody's apartment in
Barcelona.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I love it.
Uh called, like called infavors to get a badge, like you
did, you know yeah, I did, I forme.
Yeah, that's my first time, bythe way, this year and I, uh, so
I went and I started talking topeople about this is what I'm
doing.
Oh, and prior to that, I wentto PTC and met with one of my
(25:33):
largest customers and theyagreed to do a POC agreement.
Right, yeah, and that was thecatalyst to help us start
raising money.
That's awesome, right?
So I go to Mobile WorldCongress, I do a video interview
with Evan Castell and he goesI'll let you know when I post it
.
I was like, okay, so he posted20 minutes later because it
(25:55):
actually hit my phone.
I love it and I'm sitting theregoing.
Oh my God, I launched mycompany and I don't even have a
website.
So I'm on my iPhone, I kid you,not sitting there in barcelona,
yeah in between, like hole twoand three, on a on a on a bench
and my friend walks by and goeswhat are you doing?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I go, I'm creating I accidentally started, I go I
accidentally launched my company.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
I'm creating a website and it all it said was
coming soon and like this yeah,fake, I created right there.
That's awesome.
Yeah, we launched and we'vebeen Welcome to 2024.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, and we've been part of it, which is super cool.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
The very next event was the MEF event, and you, me
and that maniac, tony, gottogether and I go, guys, I got
an idea.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
It's like I need a partner to help me get to all
the rural guys.
And you were like let me hearit, and we sat down on the patio
.
I'll never forget.
Outside it was a little hot.
We sat down, we talked and youguys, we're in.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, well, the thing is like our, like our industry,
the regional carrier space, butalso you know a lot of people
and this is what drives me crazyand and I know you will agree
with me, so I don't even have tothink about it, but I know
you'll agree with me but peoplehave, um, you know, tony was my
boss for 15 years and he talkedabout, you know, a loser, loser
(27:25):
cheap, right, and, and you talkabout loser, cheap, but, but
people have a loser mentalitysometimes and they're like flat
as the new up, and that that,that saying, just drives me
absolutely crazy.
Like flat as a new up, likewhat the hell are you talking
about?
Like this is the most excitingindustry.
Yeah, everybody has a cellphone.
The only ones and I'll say this, and, and I think you'll agree
(27:46):
with this too the only ones thatcan screw it up are the people
that are already in theindustry'll agree with this too
the only ones that can screw itup are the people that are
already in the industry.
That's right, right, they're theonly ones that can screw it up.
They've already screwed up cellphone calls.
Right, I look at a call and itsays scam likely.
And I made a mistake, man,because I'm stupid sometimes.
And I told my wife.
I said you know, if I'm evergoing to cheat on you I would.
(28:07):
I would just put mygirlfriend's number as scam
likely.
So now, every time there's scamlikely, my wife is like answer
it.
I want to hear it.
I'm like I was kidding.
She's like answer.
So I bought like eight solarpanels and you know doing the
whole thing.
So it was.
It was my fault.
I'm dumb, so don't do that.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Did you buy the timeshare?
Yeah, did you get the?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
timeshare.
I've got a timeshare in inRussia somewhere you know, in
Ukraine.
So so anyway, so, so, yeah, sothe only ones that can screw it
up are us, and I get it Like andwe have we have, we have.
And I and I get the.
We're owned by a parent companyand my son works for lawyers AI
(28:52):
.
He does this whole thing and hecalled me yesterday, whenever
it was, and he said the end ofthe quarter is coming and so I
have to make some deals.
We don't work in that world.
We blow away our numbers somuch Like quarters don't matter
to me and all of that.
But for people in the wirelessindustry who quarters does
(29:12):
matter, like I could see, maybethey're like eh, this is
probably not great, but let'slet it through.
And it drives me insane becausethat's going to ruin the cash
cow that is our industry, Wow,Wow.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So yeah, I helped start messaging what messaging
is today.
I was the part of it Me, BillDudley, Dan Lye, Chris Wright,
Pat Wilcox.
We started what messaging istoday.
It's all because of us, period,and I will defend that to the
(29:46):
day I die.
Why?
Because we helped invent P2Pintercarrier.
Right, A gentleman by the nameof Cormac Long wrote SMPP1,
which made it work.
Because what happened was wehad disparaging networks TDMA,
CDMA, GSM and they wouldn'tcommunicate.
So you had to take it off SS7and move it to IP, which is what
(30:07):
Cormac wrote Right.
Right, Then a couple ofcompanies out there.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
And I have no idea what that means, but it sounds
really cool.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
It made P2P work.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
It made P2P inter-carrier work and P2P is
person to person.
Now I'm texting you.
This is a true story.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I did it over the weekend, I kid you not.
In 1999, 98, I sent a P2Pmessage from Centennial Puerto
Rico, which was CDMA, toPowertel, which was GSM.
Wow, and I walked into ourMonday morning management
meeting and I said, hey, guesswhat I did this weekend?
I don't think it was ever donebefore.
(30:42):
Maybe it was, I won't debatethat.
But at least I have never seenit before.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Someone will tell us.
If they did it first, maybe,but that's all right, yeah Right
.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
And I walk in and I go guess what I did this weekend
and I tell them the story.
I sent a message from CDMA toGSM and then from GSM to TDMA
and my head of marketing saidwow, has anybody done that
before I go?
I don't think so.
She goes, we should do a pressrelease on that.
And I shit you not?
Said, nah, no one's ever goingto use it no one's ever going to
(31:15):
care about it.
My daughter's going to medschool, Right.
Thank you.
P2p messaging Right.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, exactly right.
I always think about that.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You know what I mean it's like.
Basically I, I literally that'sall I was ever involved with
for years.
So I worked at VeriSign.
I worked at, you know, irisWireless.
We were the big guys.
So when everybody goes, so thewhole 10 DLC, that happened
because Bill Dudley called me upone day and said Verizon wants
(31:44):
to send messages from their VoIPphones to the wireless networks
and we changed all thecontracts to allow for that.
So it's your fault which, yes,everybody knows, it's mine and
Bill Dully's fault, and I'llnever forget.
We were in Vegas, ctia, dan Lye,chris Wright, and we were
fighting to get the contractschanged, because the contracts,
(32:04):
the appearing agreement, said a10-digit mobile phone number and
we changed it to a 10 digitdialable number and that and
that's how net number got intothe well, net number was in the
e-spit business anyway for the,for the um enum business, right?
So they had that, that specifictechnology that will allow us
(32:26):
to track where the mess, wherethe, where the the routing had
to do, because we did all therouting internally and that
creates 10 DLC.
And at the time we were verygood, we were like no spam, we
called it bulk messaging at thetime, yeah, I remember, and we
were like no, no, no, we wouldshut people down, we had no
problem.
(32:46):
So today, all this spam that'sgoing on in the network, all
these spam calls, all that, ifanybody says they don't know
where it's coming from, they arelying.
They know, they know exactlywhere it's coming from.
And that was me yelling at thatevent when I yelled bullshit.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Because we know exactly where it's coming from,
and you're usually so reserved.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
And my point is this we could stop spam tomorrow, at
least on messaging.
We could stop spam tomorrow ifthe providers or the originators
cared less about their revenueand more about their carrier
customer Right Remember carriercustomer and more about the end
(33:32):
consumer.
And they don't, they don't.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
And it's so bad, but everybody's got to make that
right, it is difficult.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
But I'm like this Unless you make the punishment
swift and severe, it will neverstop.
It'll never stop.
So, kara, t-mobile, she did thewhole.
You send spam, we're going tofine you, et cetera, et cetera.
And I walked up to her and Isaid this is the great thank you
.
It's about time someone did it,because that's not our business
(34:00):
.
Our business is servicingcustomers, people, individuals
to communicate brands tocommunicate to customers and
vice versa.
Communicate brands tocommunicate to customers and
vice versa.
Our business is not to fund ornot to make revenue off the guy
selling Ray-Bans, right, youknow?
Hey, buy a Ray-Ban.
Or hey, do I know you Right?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I get that all the time, but that's because girls
really like me.
I really feel like it is.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
But that's not our business and it shouldn't be our
business, Right?
No, I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And so Shirt's just going a long way into stopping
that, and hopefully we can dothat together.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Well, we definitely will be doing that together, but
it's not even stopping thatit's actually taking.
Sms was never designed forsecurity, ever Right.
It wasn't designed OTP.
The reason for OTP is we allkept losing our dongles the
one-time password dongles.
We all kept losing them and itjust made sense.
Everybody had a phone right.
(34:58):
What we're trying to do iswe're trying to take the
security out of SMS, where itdoesn't belong, and put it where
it does belong in the network,in the network and that whole
network authentication space.
And being able to facilitateand help these carriers get from
having nothing, not knowingwhat to do, to being the leaders
(35:21):
you know and protecting theirconsumers and that partnership
between us helping them to getthere, I think, is just I'm
proud to be doing that, like I'mproud, I'm proud to be working
with you.
I'm proud to be helping thesecarriers get there.
You may have saw a few days agothe SimSwap case with T-Mobile,
(35:44):
where T-Mobile paid $33 millionin arbitration right and then
paid $6.5 million in attorney'sfees.
Now we all know about TCPA,which is the.
I send you a bad text message.
All of a sudden, I'm suing thecarrier or the brand for that,
and our carriers can't affordthat.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
So that's why we try to be a part of that, that's why
we try to help those carriers,and we'll continue to do that,
but we'll continue to do ittogether, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Because the carriers that we're working with need us
more than ever, because whatthat announcement allowed was
open season and the liability tothe carriers.
The lawyers love it.
And the lawyers love it, right.
So could you imagine some ofthese carriers who are rural,
just trying to service theircommunities, go off a bit.
(36:34):
Someone gets sim swap there.
There's shite, the lawyerwhatever I'm not, I shouldn't
say that my wife's an attorney,but a lawyer out there goes.
They'll bankrupt thesecompanies.
They'll bankrupt thesecompanies overnight.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
They will and so, and that that's how we make our
money right, so Protecting themand protecting the consumer and
so what I always say is you know, we're helping to protect them.
We don't.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
We do everything we can to not charge those carriers
, but make money with theminstead, and that's what we'll
try to do, Because this is thefirst time that carriers are
sending out data outside theirfirewalls, right, right, and
being one being trusted withthat data, working with the FCC
(37:17):
for allowing that data right togo out right and being able to
expose it in a way thateverybody is protected and the
right financial institutions areconsuming that data in a
trusted way to protect theconsumer and the network, is
(37:39):
probably the most importantthing and honorable thing that
I've been doing in my life andprobably my career.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Well, we should end it there, because that is what
it's all about.
That's what it's all about.
We got to keep it going becausebecause that is what it's all
about.
That's what it's all about.
We've got to keep it goingbecause that's how we all make
our living, exactly.
But we also want to protectpeople out there subscribers all
of that.
We want to make sure thatthings keep going the way that
they have been going and it justdoesn't get ruined.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
No, and I think one other thing before we do cut it
off these poor guys have no moremoney, so being able to do it
for them in a rev share typemodel allows them not to have to
spend more money, because theyspent half a trillion dollars on
5G without a business case.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
There's no more money , and you think about all the
businesses that make money offof our carriers, exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
That's the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
So we will end with that.
But yeah, but we changed ourbusiness model and our thought
process is always let's makemoney when the carriers make
money, because that's the way tokeep them alive.
Thanks for coming by, I knowyou're on a speaker circuit.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So I appreciate it, I appreciate you and we'll see
you soon.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
All right.
I'm Ron Ouellette.
Welcome to Whiskey and Wireless.
We're going to sit down withindustry professionals, have
spirited discussions and talkabout what shaped the wireless
industry and why we are where weare today and where we're going
to be tomorrow.
So, downtown Orlando, I'mparked right down there, right,
(00:22):
I can't find my key to my car.
Like, my car starts and it goes, but I don't know where my key
is because I paid my son todetail my car and I have no idea
where he put the key.
So, as I'm doing this, I'mconcentrating on you because I
care about you, but I have noidea if my car is going to be
(00:42):
there when I get back.
And the question for you is yougrew up in alphabet city.
How long would that car bethere, knowing that all you have
to do is get in and push thebutton and drive away?
I can't lock it.
Two seconds, two seconds.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So after the guy stole it, by the time he got to
his lot to the light, the wheelswill be off the car.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, and so I'm a little preoccupied with the fact
that I may not have a car whenI walk back down there.
Well, maybe so from AlphabetCity to wireless.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, it was more Greenwich Village, but yeah, not
too far.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, I'm from Florida, I don't know the
difference between that.
So how'd that happen?
How'd I get?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
to what that?
So how'd that happen?
How'd I get to what?
Wireless To wireless?
Oh, I was in a nightclubbusiness in New York City that's
not surprising and I met a girl.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
That's also not surprising.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
She lived in LA and one day she woke up and she said
move to LA with me.
And I said sure, so we get inthe car.
I have $1,500 in my pocket.
This is 1993-ish, I get $1,500in my pocket that I borrowed.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
That I borrowed.
That wasn't yours.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
And we got in a Toyota Celica and drove to LA.
We had an apartment.
The apartment was $900 a monthin a very nice area right around
the corner from the BeverlyCenter.
It was a really, really prettyarea, probably not $900 a month,
right now, no, no, no, and I'mlike I got to get a job right.
(02:19):
It's like I got to get a jobbecause she's in the film
industry and she was a makeupartist.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Okay, Cause I was making.
I was making assumptions for asecond, but it's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
She was a makeup artist and I'm like I have to
find a job.
So a friend of mine, a friendof ours, like knew a guy in the
paging resale.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Oh my.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
God, paging, paging resale business and I went to
work for one of his friends,right, I went to work for them
in the paging and I was running,like you know, the paging
service that they did out of theback of like a pawn shop.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So I was the cool kid right, so I had a pager that
you would call and a live personwould answer.
So I eventually got there.
I eventually did.
No, I was huge, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
They would resell the service for a company called
Paget and at the time Paget wasprobably the fastest growing
paging company.
So I went to work for them inLA and I had a knack for the
computer systems and I knew thecomputer systems and it just
came to me so we broke up.
Of course that didn't work out.
(03:27):
It didn't work out.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Let's take a drink.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, drink to that, that's hearty.
We didn't work out and I wasliving in LA and I didn't like
it.
I'm a New York kid through andthrough.
Yeah, even now they have anoffice in New York and the
office was upgrading to thecomputer system.
So there was a role for methere.
So I went back to New York.
I went to work for them in NewYork City in True World Trade
(03:53):
Center.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Really Yep, and I always had my apartment in New
York, so it wasn't like Icouldn't find a place to live or
I always had everything right.
So I went to work for them andthen, believe it or not, because
of another girl, I she why dowe keep?
She lived in I don't know.
She lived in Dallas and that'swhere their corporate
headquarters were.
And again they.
(04:15):
It was getting to the pointwhere the people at corporate
would call me to figure out howto fix the billing system that
we were working on in theactivation system.
And I got a phone call one dayand they said would you want to
move to Dallas and come work atcorporate in Plano in the
application support department?
Well, I was already dating agirl from Dallas.
(04:36):
She was coming back and forth,I was going back and forth, so I
was always there and I loveDallas.
I always thought Dallas was agreat city.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So I moved to Dallas and I worked in and I went to
work for.
Pagenet and I was in the page,and that woman became your wife.
No, okay, darn it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Then we broke up.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Oh, it's always hard.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
It's always hard.
And then we broke up and, um, Ilove Dallas, I wouldn't move.
I, I mean, I fell in love withDallas, had a great apartment
and one night I was out, I wasin a nightclub with a buddy of
mine and my wife walked in andthis is the God's honest true
story.
My wife walks in and my wife isthe typical, what you expect of
(05:18):
a Texas woman.
She was 5'11", blonde hair,built like a brick, shik-tag,
you know, legs that went fromher hip to her feet, and she
walks in and she was wearing adouble-breasted leather jacket
that's it, and high-heeled shoesand her hair was all over.
And I turned to my buddy and Igo.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
That's my future wife , I love that, I love that, and
he goes no way.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I said that's my future wife.
I go watch this.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So I walk over Throwing full 100% Eddie New
York on her.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, she walks by me .
As she's walking by me, I gohow you doing.
Oh, you did.
I swear to God, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Oh my God, you owe Matt LaBlock like 58 cents or
something, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
We are married on the 4th of April.
We are married on the 4th ofApril.
We will be married 29 years.
As she's walking past me, Iwent, how you doing, how you
doing, and she went.
I swear to God, she went illand she kept walking.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
She probably would still say that she kept walking.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So when she's coming back, I go come here, come here,
come here.
I want to talk to you.
She goes what?
I go.
You're looking good in thatoutfit.
I go, but you need to bewearing something like this.
She goes well, how do you knowwhat I should be wearing?
I go.
I'm a gay fashion designer, Iknow these things.
That's your pickup line, thatwas my pickup line Wow.
So my wife always says how didyou meet your husband?
(06:37):
He goes, he told me he was gay,yeah Right.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So we started talking .
We started talking.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
We started talking and I was like, give me your
number, I'll give you a call.
She goes, when are you going tocall me?
So I said I'll call youtomorrow.
I don't know, 1 o'clock shegoes.
All right, you call me tomorrowat 1 o'clock.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well, the next day at 1 o'clock I'm like I can't call
15 minutes so she thinks I'mgoing to.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
and she sat there on the old remember the old
answering machines with the tape, oh yeah, yeah, and she just
watched me leave a message.
Oh, that's awesome.
So I.
Finally she calls me back andsaid let's get together for
dinner.
She's gorgeous, right, let'sget together for dinner, let's.
You know, you don't understand.
29 years later, when she saysshe has to do laundry, she has
to do laundry.
It's impossible.
(07:25):
A person creates that muchlaundry, that much laundry, yeah
yeah.
So I said how bad could it be?
Why don't you meet me at eighto'clock and we'll go have dinner
?
She stood me up for two hoursand I waited.
She like shows up at 10 o'clockthinking I'm still there.
And I was still there waitingfor her.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
You were still there waiting.
Look at that.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And we've been together ever since.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
That's beautiful, and I've met her.
She's great.
Yeah, she's a great woman, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
DC last year.
I think she's great.
Yeah, no this year.
Yeah this year.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
That's right, she's great.
And then into wireless.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yeah, so I was with Paget and then my buddy went
over to Austria to work for JohnKluge, who used to own
Metromedia, which is Span theWorld at one time, and he owned
Metromedia International.
Metromedia International was apartnership with Western
Wireless and they owned allthese wireless companies all
over the former Soviet Union andof course, paging and radio and
(08:24):
cable and all that.
So I got my experience on theinternational scene because
right after we got married onApril 4th in 1998, we moved May
to Austria.
I mean it was like I went onthe interview on a honeymoon
when I was on my honeymoon-.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
So a New York bar guy living in Austria, new York bar
guy living in Austria.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
We had a great time.
Then we moved back and then Ithat's when I got heavily,
heavily into wireless.
But that's where I learned.
I started learning the whole.
There's a big differencebetween pager billing and
wireless billing, right, andthat's where I kind of learned
all that.
And then I went to work.
I came back, I went to work fora company called Global
(09:03):
Mobility Systems.
Right, I was there for a weekand they fired half the company,
changed the name to AppMobileand we were the hottest startup.
We were the last dot-comcompany that sold for $428
million.
We were the last one before thebubble blew.
So that's 2000.
Oh, that's 2000.
No, I left in 1999.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
1999,.
Yeah, yeah, Because they gotbought out by software.
Oh that's 2000.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
No, I left in 1999.
1999.
Yeah, yeah, Because they gotbought out.
They got bought out bysoftwarecom, which became
OpenWave.
Right, softwarecom merged withphonecom and became OpenWave,
and that was the last of the bigbubbles, so phonecom.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So at the time I was married and my wife worked at a
place called partscom.
Okay, and guess what they did?
They sold auto parts, right,partscom.
And there was a big conventionhere in orlando.
It's a big auto show, whateverpartscom, they had girls at the
booth, they had balloons,whatever planes flying banners,
and she had stock.
(09:59):
And that stock was at and I'mmaking up numbers now but that
stock was at like 10 percent ofa penny and then all of a sudden
the stock goes up to like twodollars, like like we're, we're
rich on paper but you can't sell.
For a year it goes up to twodollars and through that was at
like day seven of our 365 dayswe had to wait and it wasn't
(10:21):
like it just fell overnight,like each day we would wake up
and it'd be a little bit less.
And by the time 365 days came,we were not wealthy so this is.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
This is so at.
Mobile gets purchased bysoftware dot com for four
hundred twenty six milliondollars.
Software dot com was a publiclytraded company.
The stock goes up thirty sixdollars the day they made the
announcement.
Oh my goodness.
It just so happened I had allthis equity and I was having a
meeting with Merrill Lynch andI'm with my wife and we walk in
(10:55):
to the Merrill and they justmade the announcement the stock
goes through the roof.
Now I actually have some realmoney, like real money, right.
So I walk into Merrill Lynchand I'm sitting in one of those
you know four-seat fakeconference rooms.
You know that only have like around table.
And the guy goes.
I said, well, listen, when Imade this appointment, this is
(11:17):
before something happened thismorning.
He goes, what happened?
I go my company was justacquired and now this stock,
these stock grants, are actuallyworth something.
And the guy goes wouldn't it beexciting if you were that
company that got bought out bysoftwarecom?
I go, I actually am not.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Five minutes later, we're in the big conference and
some executive vice president ofprivate wealth in there.
They knock down the fake wallsand they're like, hey, come on
in and we laugh to this dayabout that.
No, it was crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
It was a crazy time to be in the space, but what it
got me was I actually workedwith these guys who started the
industry, like a guy by the nameof Mike Berman who worked for
Craig McCore and Couser and allthese guys, jerry Wojcik, who
literally wrote IS-41B thatallowed for global like US
(12:09):
roaming right, these guys werethe catalyst for what this
industry has become, right, Imean-.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And just look back and it's only been 25 years.
That's a crazy thing.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Randy Schneider invented like that, wrote the
book not invented wrote the bookon SS7.
These are the guys who taughtme the industry and I'm like
great story Sunit Lothra.
He invented the HLR, theexternal HLR, when he worked at
Sprint and when we had thisproduct and service.
I'll never forget some guysarguing with me about the way
(12:45):
something works and I said, well, let me get my CTO and maybe he
can answer your question,because I don't think we're
agreeing right.
So I grabbed Suneet, I goSuneet, can you help me here?
And the guy goes into the thingand Suneet goes it doesn't work
that way, it works this.
And he goes through the wholething and the guy goes to Sidney
.
How do you know?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Sidney goes.
I invented it.
I was like he was waiting forthat question.
I think maybe he paid the guy,I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
But I was like yeah, so I was very blessed coming up
in the industry to work withsome of these guys who are
Everything, everybody, all thesehundreds of thousands of
employees that work for thesewireless companies in the United
States and outside the UnitedStates have their careers based
on the guys who taught me theindustry, and that's what's so
(13:38):
cool, you know, and the factthat you started overseas too.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
So even now I kind of struggle with the fact that our
expertise is in the US and inthe Caribbean.
The North American numberingplan right.
So we're a big North Americannumbering plan, and then you've
got to step out of that andthink about Europe and think
about Asia and think about howit works, which is different
than how it works over here.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
We're getting a lot closer to what they have done,
but it took us a long time.
Remember, we had disparagingnetworks, we had TDMA.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
We done, but it took us a long time.
Remember we had disparagingnetworks.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
We had TDMA, we had CDMA, we had GSM and then
everything started converging.
I mean, I remember when I wasgoing to a CTIA conference, I
kid you not.
I remember getting off theplane and I had a.
I don't know how I heard, but Iremember hearing AT&T was going
to move to GSM and I thought Iwas shocked, shocked.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, yeah that was big news.
That was huge news.
Yeah, and Verizon was CDMA,CDMA and it was.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
CDMA forever and then eventually, when LTE came out,
everybody's on the sametechnology.
Then it all brings it all back.
Yeah, it all merges in.
So best conference you talkedabout ctia.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
we had some great conferences, yeah that's a good
erickson had and nortel hadgreat parties.
Yeah, so, so my you know we, weplay a lot of games when I
travel right and everybody doesright, because it's the only way
to stop from the insanity.
We just had a bunch of peoplefrom clear sky came down and and
they're a bunch of technicalpeople and people that aren't
used to traveling and they hadto sleep in airports, get
delayed, like all that stuff,and I was like you know, you see
(15:15):
my post about, hey, I'm inbarcelona or hey, I'm in here,
but it's really not that thatgreat like there.
There are bumps that happenalong the way, so you got to
play games, you got to, you know, do whatever.
So we're sitting in a ctia onetime and back then ctia happened
at the same time as the pornconvention.
Yes, the adult, adult video.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I'm sorry, yes, the adult video awards.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And so we sat in a room, and on the right hand side
was ctia that's where all thepeople for ctia at the party and
on the left hand side was theporn awards right for that year.
And me and god, who was it?
He was the ceo of some wirelessin west virginia.
I don't remember who it was,but we sat on a.
(15:58):
We sat on a couch and we saidlet's play the easiest game we
will ever play in our lives.
When someone walks in the frontdoor, we're're going to guess
what they're going to go.
We're going to guess whatthey're going to go left or
right, and it was by far theeasiest game we have ever played
in our lives.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I can tell you a couple of games we used to play
in Singapore and a few otherplaces.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Those games are different.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
But it was just like that we would sit there and bet
on.
You know what's going to happennext.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
And it was a lot of fun yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
But no CTIA used to have.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I mean unbelievably great, huge, gigantic shows.
I watched Bill Clinton andGeorge Bush together do the
keynote.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Do you remember that one?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I remember that one, and what was it Bill Clinton
said?
My penalty for winningpresidency is now I have to be
the straight man for George Bush.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And it was.
They were great together.
They were.
But I used to remember we.
The thing was.
I was like why would they putit in New Orleans, or why would
they put it in?
Well, we outgrew Orlando, weoutgrew.
Atlanta.
We outgrew everything, andthere's only two places in the
country you could have it.
One was New Orleans and theother one was Vegas.
That was it.
(17:14):
It was absolutely out ofcontrol.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
It was so big.
It was so New Orleans.
I talk about travel a bit andNew Orleans is always special to
me because it was and I'll makeup the but it was 1, 45, 2
o'clock, 2, 15, whatever it was.
And this is a good, this is agood.
Guys, are guys right?
We're just big, dumb animals.
(17:38):
That's all we are, and thankgoodness we have women in our
lives most of the time.
So we're, we're walking downwhat's the big street, new
orleans?
Oh, um, bourbon street, bourbonstreet.
We're walking Bourbon Streetand I'm walking with this guy,
denny, that used to work with us, and there's a dildo on the
street right, just sitting onthe street, 2 o'clock.
So I kick it, then he walksover and he kicks it and then we
(18:01):
all start kicking it.
Next thing, you know, we have athree on three and we're
playing dildo soccer in themiddle of Bourbon Street at
three o'clock in the morning.
And this is where it getsinteresting.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
There's a side it wasn't interesting before.
No, no, this is nothing.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Then there's a sidewalk right, so I kick it and
the dildo goes into thesidewalk.
A guy walking on the sidewalkkicks it back in, and then a guy
on my team kicks it into thegoal.
Andny's like, hey, that doesn'tcount.
I was like, what do you mean?
It doesn't count.
He's like, well, that guykicked it.
Now, apparently, in the 18minutes that we've been playing
(18:34):
dildo soccer, there's a dildosoccer federation with rules and
I broke the rules I'm likethere's a rule that says that he
can't kick it.
What are you talking about?
So I'm actually banned from thedsf soccer federation?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I can't participate in it anymore.
I can see that happening.
I can definitely see thathappening, and that's New
Orleans, that's New Orleans.
So yeah, ctia was a blast itused to be great, and the
parties at Erickson and Norteland Lucent, and being able to
get into them and you would walkto the front door and they'd be
(19:10):
like Eddie, come on in.
You know, it's like it wascrazy.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It was crazy.
It was crazy, it was good times.
Yeah, it was a great time.
So now, so we'll talk aboutsome serious stuff now.
So you and I you know, I try toremember like I met you maybe
and I don't remember we kind ofknew each other.
We were competitors for a while.
Yeah, I was on the interop andI hated you and told people that
(19:35):
you kicked puppies.
I did, yeah, but then we becamefriends and then we became
partners, which has been supercool for me, but for you, you
started Shush.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
When did you start that?
A year ago year.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It's a year and a month, so you're in a month man,
hey, let's take a minute,doesn't matter, we're not out of
time, they're not yelling at usyet.
So so a year ago, and youdecide I've had enough of this,
like I'm gonna do my own thing.
Like, like, how was that?
Wife supportive, everybodysupportive.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So I have tried to do my own thing a couple of times
and they all failedspectacularly.
They should, yes, and my wifewas never supportive of any of
them oh come on.
No, she was like go get a jobGo get a real job yeah yeah, my
wife's, yeah, yeah, but this,she was unbelievably supportive.
(20:32):
And what happened was?
I guess what happened was I'm aNew Yorker, I'm Italian.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Are you?
I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I grew up in a big family, I still have a problem
of not being able to keep mymouth shut.
Haven't noticed that either.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Diarrhea of the mouth .
We were at an MEF, by the way,in Toronto.
Being able to keep my mouthshut.
Haven't noticed that either?
Diarrhea of the mouth?
Yeah, yeah, we were at an MEF,by the way, in Toronto.
And then you can go right backto it.
We were at an MEF in Torontolast year and I was sitting
there and these guys nice guys,I'm sure are on a keynote and
they're talking about something,and then you just I don't even
(21:07):
remember what he said, but the Fword was involved more than
once and you just scream outfrom the audience and I'm like
that's Eddie.
Everybody knows it's Eddie andit was great.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Anyway.
So go ahead, because I justdon't, I don't tolerate bullshit
, yeah Right.
Especially when people don'tknow what they're talking about.
Yeah, so you know, I actuallywas listening to what my
customers were saying.
Now I'm not telling mycustomers what they needed, and
this is as a previous company,and I'm like there is something
(21:41):
here.
Yeah, right, there is a problemin this ecosystem and I think I
could fix it.
And I think I could fix it.
So I sat down, like a normalperson would do, sat down and
wrote out a thesis of what Ibelieved shush should be and how
hard was it for you to be anormal person.
That was difficult, but it tookme a number of days.
(22:01):
It took me a number of days andI wrote this long, five-page
thesis on the vision of thecompany and I.
So people ask me how well do Iknow john donovan?
Well I go.
John donovan's the former ceoof at, of at&t.
How well did?
He used to approve my expensereports.
(22:21):
So how well do you think I know?
yeah, that's pretty good yeah,and john's always been a good
guy to me.
He's's always been like amentor to me and I appreciate it
and I'll never forget.
I called him up.
I called up, I said no, I shothim an email and I said I have
an idea.
Can I have some of your time torun it by you and get some
feedback?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
How important is that ?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
by the way, I thought it was extremely important,
especially because when Johnretired in November of 18, that
was the last time AT&T as acompany was the number one
telecommunications company inthe world.
Wow, think about that.
Yeah, right, they haven't heldthat title since.
What a resume, all right.
(23:02):
So you know, and I'm like youknow, and he's a super smart guy
, you know, and just getting hisfeedback, even if I can get it
for five minutes, was worth.
You know its weight, right, hegave me an hour.
That's incredible, right, it'slike, and I went through it what
(23:23):
was different this time thanevery other time before was
anytime anybody had a questionor challenge, or John goes well,
what about this or what aboutthis?
And I would always have theanswer.
Right, and the answer, whilemay not be exactly what came out
(23:44):
and like in the real world,right, it was close enough that,
enough that he ends theconversation with all right,
here's what you need to do.
I said what he goes you need todo this, but you need to go
raise $30 million.
I forget the exact number, itwas like $30 or $40 million.
Go raise it and own this space,because everybody's going to be
coming for you.
He goes this is a great idea.
(24:06):
Go do this.
And then, of course, I said so,would you like to be, uh, my one
of my advisors on my board,because I'm on nine boards?
I'm too busy for this stuff,right?
No, but I mean it was superawesome that he gave me an hour.
So then you know, but you don'twant to stop at one.
So I called a number ofdifferent mentors.
I have a people I respect inthe industry saying went through
(24:27):
the same process over and overagain a couple of times until I
got that comfort level thatwe're doing the right thing.
So that was in December.
So I did this from December15th to January 2nd.
And then I called my partner,daryl, who you know.
I said I got an idea.
He's like I tell him what it is, he's like I'm in.
And then we incorporated onfebruary 2nd, 2024.
(24:49):
And then I went to mobile worldcongress um, on, uh, on points,
and you know, yeah, yeah on 25points and good looks.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, yeah, points at 25 a night.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Airbnb or not like airbnb?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
whatever your room, whatever your wife would let you
have somebody's peoplesomebody's apartment in
Barcelona.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I love it.
Uh called, like called infavors to get a badge, like you
did, you know yeah, I did, I forme.
Yeah, that's my first time, bythe way, this year and I, uh, so
I went and I started talking topeople about this is what I'm
doing.
Oh, and prior to that, I wentto PTC and met with one of my
(25:33):
largest customers and theyagreed to do a POC agreement.
Right, yeah, and that was thecatalyst to help us start
raising money.
That's awesome, right?
So I go to Mobile WorldCongress, I do a video interview
with Evan Castell and he goesI'll let you know when I post it
.
I was like, okay, so he posted20 minutes later because it
(25:55):
actually hit my phone.
I love it and I'm sitting theregoing.
Oh my God, I launched mycompany and I don't even have a
website.
So I'm on my iPhone, I kid you,not sitting there in barcelona,
yeah in between, like hole twoand three, on a on a on a bench
and my friend walks by and goeswhat are you doing?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I go, I'm creating I accidentally started, I go I
accidentally launched my company.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
I'm creating a website and it all it said was
coming soon and like this yeah,fake, I created right there.
That's awesome.
Yeah, we launched and we'vebeen Welcome to 2024.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, and we've been part of it, which is super cool.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
The very next event was the MEF event, and you, me
and that maniac, tony, gottogether and I go, guys, I got
an idea.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
It's like I need a partner to help me get to all
the rural guys.
And you were like let me hearit, and we sat down on the patio
.
I'll never forget.
Outside it was a little hot.
We sat down, we talked and youguys, we're in.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, well, the thing is like our, like our industry,
the regional carrier space, butalso you know a lot of people
and this is what drives me crazyand and I know you will agree
with me, so I don't even have tothink about it, but I know
you'll agree with me but peoplehave, um, you know, tony was my
boss for 15 years and he talkedabout, you know, a loser, loser
(27:25):
cheap, right, and, and you talkabout loser, cheap, but, but
people have a loser mentalitysometimes and they're like flat
as the new up, and that that,that saying, just drives me
absolutely crazy.
Like flat as a new up, likewhat the hell are you talking
about?
Like this is the most excitingindustry.
Yeah, everybody has a cellphone.
The only ones and I'll say this, and, and I think you'll agree
(27:46):
with this too the only ones thatcan screw it up are the people
that are already in theindustry'll agree with this too
the only ones that can screw itup are the people that are
already in the industry.
That's right, right, they're theonly ones that can screw it up.
They've already screwed up cellphone calls.
Right, I look at a call and itsays scam likely.
And I made a mistake, man,because I'm stupid sometimes.
And I told my wife.
I said you know, if I'm evergoing to cheat on you I would.
(28:07):
I would just put mygirlfriend's number as scam
likely.
So now, every time there's scamlikely, my wife is like answer
it.
I want to hear it.
I'm like I was kidding.
She's like answer.
So I bought like eight solarpanels and you know doing the
whole thing.
So it was.
It was my fault.
I'm dumb, so don't do that.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Did you buy the timeshare?
Yeah, did you get the?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
timeshare.
I've got a timeshare in inRussia somewhere you know, in
Ukraine.
So so anyway, so, so, yeah, sothe only ones that can screw it
up are us, and I get it Like andwe have we have, we have.
And I and I get the.
We're owned by a parent companyand my son works for lawyers AI
(28:52):
.
He does this whole thing and hecalled me yesterday, whenever
it was, and he said the end ofthe quarter is coming and so I
have to make some deals.
We don't work in that world.
We blow away our numbers somuch Like quarters don't matter
to me and all of that.
But for people in the wirelessindustry who quarters does
(29:12):
matter, like I could see, maybethey're like eh, this is
probably not great, but let'slet it through.
And it drives me insane becausethat's going to ruin the cash
cow that is our industry, Wow,Wow.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
So yeah, I helped start messaging what messaging
is today.
I was the part of it Me, BillDudley, Dan Lye, Chris Wright,
Pat Wilcox.
We started what messaging istoday.
It's all because of us, period,and I will defend that to the
(29:46):
day I die.
Why?
Because we helped invent P2Pintercarrier.
Right, A gentleman by the nameof Cormac Long wrote SMPP1,
which made it work.
Because what happened was wehad disparaging networks TDMA,
CDMA, GSM and they wouldn'tcommunicate.
So you had to take it off SS7and move it to IP, which is what
(30:07):
Cormac wrote Right.
Right, Then a couple ofcompanies out there.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
And I have no idea what that means, but it sounds
really cool.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
It made P2P work.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
It made P2P inter-carrier work and P2P is
person to person.
Now I'm texting you.
This is a true story.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I did it over the weekend, I kid you not.
In 1999, 98, I sent a P2Pmessage from Centennial Puerto
Rico, which was CDMA, toPowertel, which was GSM.
Wow, and I walked into ourMonday morning management
meeting and I said, hey, guesswhat I did this weekend?
I don't think it was ever donebefore.
(30:42):
Maybe it was, I won't debatethat.
But at least I have never seenit before.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Someone will tell us.
If they did it first, maybe,but that's all right, yeah Right
.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
And I walk in and I go guess what I did this weekend
and I tell them the story.
I sent a message from CDMA toGSM and then from GSM to TDMA
and my head of marketing saidwow, has anybody done that
before I go?
I don't think so.
She goes, we should do a pressrelease on that.
And I shit you not?
Said, nah, no one's ever goingto use it no one's ever going to
(31:15):
care about it.
My daughter's going to medschool, Right.
Thank you.
P2p messaging Right.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, exactly right.
I always think about that.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You know what I mean it's like.
Basically I, I literally that'sall I was ever involved with
for years.
So I worked at VeriSign.
I worked at, you know, irisWireless.
We were the big guys.
So when everybody goes, so thewhole 10 DLC, that happened
because Bill Dudley called me upone day and said Verizon wants
(31:44):
to send messages from their VoIPphones to the wireless networks
and we changed all thecontracts to allow for that.
So it's your fault which, yes,everybody knows, it's mine and
Bill Dully's fault, and I'llnever forget.
We were in Vegas, ctia, dan Lye,chris Wright, and we were
fighting to get the contractschanged, because the contracts,
(32:04):
the appearing agreement, said a10-digit mobile phone number and
we changed it to a 10 digitdialable number and that and
that's how net number got intothe well, net number was in the
e-spit business anyway for the,for the um enum business, right?
So they had that, that specifictechnology that will allow us
(32:26):
to track where the mess, wherethe, where the the routing had
to do, because we did all therouting internally and that
creates 10 DLC.
And at the time we were verygood, we were like no spam, we
called it bulk messaging at thetime, yeah, I remember, and we
were like no, no, no, we wouldshut people down, we had no
problem.
(32:46):
So today, all this spam that'sgoing on in the network, all
these spam calls, all that, ifanybody says they don't know
where it's coming from, they arelying.
They know, they know exactlywhere it's coming from.
And that was me yelling at thatevent when I yelled bullshit.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Because we know exactly where it's coming from,
and you're usually so reserved.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
And my point is this we could stop spam tomorrow, at
least on messaging.
We could stop spam tomorrow ifthe providers or the originators
cared less about their revenueand more about their carrier
customer Right Remember carriercustomer and more about the end
(33:32):
consumer.
And they don't, they don't.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
And it's so bad, but everybody's got to make that
right, it is difficult.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
But I'm like this Unless you make the punishment
swift and severe, it will neverstop.
It'll never stop.
So, kara, t-mobile, she did thewhole.
You send spam, we're going tofine you, et cetera, et cetera.
And I walked up to her and Isaid this is the great thank you
.
It's about time someone did it,because that's not our business
(34:00):
.
Our business is servicingcustomers, people, individuals
to communicate brands tocommunicate to customers and
vice versa.
Communicate brands tocommunicate to customers and
vice versa.
Our business is not to fund ornot to make revenue off the guy
selling Ray-Bans, right, youknow?
Hey, buy a Ray-Ban.
Or hey, do I know you Right?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I get that all the time, but that's because girls
really like me.
I really feel like it is.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
But that's not our business and it shouldn't be our
business, Right?
No, I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And so Shirt's just going a long way into stopping
that, and hopefully we can dothat together.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Well, we definitely will be doing that together, but
it's not even stopping thatit's actually taking.
Sms was never designed forsecurity, ever Right.
It wasn't designed OTP.
The reason for OTP is we allkept losing our dongles the
one-time password dongles.
We all kept losing them and itjust made sense.
Everybody had a phone right.
(34:58):
What we're trying to do iswe're trying to take the
security out of SMS, where itdoesn't belong, and put it where
it does belong in the network,in the network and that whole
network authentication space.
And being able to facilitateand help these carriers get from
having nothing, not knowingwhat to do, to being the leaders
(35:21):
you know and protecting theirconsumers and that partnership
between us helping them to getthere, I think, is just I'm
proud to be doing that, like I'mproud, I'm proud to be working
with you.
I'm proud to be helping thesecarriers get there.
You may have saw a few days agothe SimSwap case with T-Mobile,
(35:44):
where T-Mobile paid $33 millionin arbitration right and then
paid $6.5 million in attorney'sfees.
Now we all know about TCPA,which is the.
I send you a bad text message.
All of a sudden, I'm suing thecarrier or the brand for that,
and our carriers can't affordthat.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
So that's why we try to be a part of that, that's why
we try to help those carriers,and we'll continue to do that,
but we'll continue to do ittogether, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Because the carriers that we're working with need us
more than ever, because whatthat announcement allowed was
open season and the liability tothe carriers.
The lawyers love it.
And the lawyers love it, right.
So could you imagine some ofthese carriers who are rural,
just trying to service theircommunities, go off a bit.
(36:34):
Someone gets sim swap there.
There's shite, the lawyerwhatever I'm not, I shouldn't
say that my wife's an attorney,but a lawyer out there goes.
They'll bankrupt thesecompanies.
They'll bankrupt thesecompanies overnight.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
They will and so, and that that's how we make our
money right, so Protecting themand protecting the consumer and
so what I always say is you know, we're helping to protect them.
We don't.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
We do everything we can to not charge those carriers
, but make money with theminstead, and that's what we'll
try to do, Because this is thefirst time that carriers are
sending out data outside theirfirewalls, right, right, and
being one being trusted withthat data, working with the FCC
(37:17):
for allowing that data right togo out right and being able to
expose it in a way thateverybody is protected and the
right financial institutions areconsuming that data in a
trusted way to protect theconsumer and the network, is
(37:39):
probably the most importantthing and honorable thing that
I've been doing in my life andprobably my career.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Well, we should end it there, because that is what
it's all about.
That's what it's all about.
We got to keep it going becausebecause that is what it's all
about.
That's what it's all about.
We've got to keep it goingbecause that's how we all make
our living, exactly.
But we also want to protectpeople out there subscribers all
of that.
We want to make sure thatthings keep going the way that
they have been going and it justdoesn't get ruined.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
No, and I think one other thing before we do cut it
off these poor guys have no moremoney, so being able to do it
for them in a rev share typemodel allows them not to have to
spend more money, because theyspent half a trillion dollars on
5G without a business case.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
There's no more money , and you think about all the
businesses that make money offof our carriers, exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
That's the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
So we will end with that.
But yeah, but we changed ourbusiness model and our thought
process is always let's makemoney when the carriers make
money, because that's the way tokeep them alive.
Thanks for coming by, I knowyou're on a speaker circuit.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So I appreciate it, I appreciate you and we'll see
you soon.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
All right.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.