April 25, 2025 • 53 mins
FAN MAIL - Send us a comment or a topic suggestion
Have you ever wondered why worry feels so natural, so necessary when you care about someone or something? In this thought-provoking exploration, we peel back the layers of what might be one of our most normalized yet destructive mental habits.
Worry, as we discover, is an imposter. It has cleverly positioned itself as the necessary companion to care and concern, making us believe the dangerous equation: if I love someone, I must worry about them. This false equivalence creates what we call "the worried well" – functioning people carrying heavy burdens of anxiety while believing it's simply the price of caring deeply.
The distinction between genuine care and worry becomes crystal clear through powerful metaphors and real-life examples. Worry is like sitting in a flooding room repeatedly saying "oh no" while taking no action, or becoming fixated on one problem while others pile up around you. Unlike problem-solving or thoughtful planning, worry keeps us trapped in circular thinking that produces no solutions while depleting our mental, emotional, and physical resources.
Perhaps the most profound wisdom comes from an unexpected source – Ma Joad from "The Grapes of Wrath," who responds to worry with striking simplicity: "No. Up ahead there's a thousand lives to live... When we get there, there'll be a single life to live. And whatever comes, I'll do it." This encapsulates Zen's approach to worry – recognizing that the worried mind invents countless disastrous scenarios that steal energy from the actual life we're living.
Zen's ultimate concern is freedom – not freedom from emotions, but freedom from being controlled by them. By learning to separate worry from care in our minds, we can experience emotions fully while responding with wisdom rather than reactive anxiety. The result isn't emotional numbness but rather a more effective, authentic engagement with life's challenges.
Ready to transform your relationship with worry and discover what lies beyond the worried mind? Listen now and join us on a journey toward emotional freedom and clarity. Share this episode with someone who might benefit from breaking free from worry's grip.
Dr. Ruben Lambert can be found at wisdomspring.com
Ven. MyongAhn Sunim can be found at soshimsa.org
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome back to the World Tres Un Eyes podcast.
I'm Yonan Sinim here, not withcrickets, but Hi, I'm Dr Ruben
Lambert.
Dr Ruben Lambert's good to beback here.
He's back, all is well.
As I have mentioned in our lastepisode, I didn't want to worry
a fan base, so sometimes thingscome up last minute and that
(00:39):
was one of those.
So I think sufficientsatisfaction has been
accomplished.
In terms of the last episode, Idid mention that if there were
mumbles and grumbles, no, I tooka listen and it was an
enjoyable podcast, I must sayall right.
Well, you were here in spirit,I was here in spirit, you sure
was here.
So you were here in footwearyes, so almost so, almost there.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Almost the entirety.
The footprint was always here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yes, almost the entirety of the person was
available.
Well, for those of you whodidn't perhaps give it a listen,
forgiveness was the topic ofthe last podcast.
Podcast this time around worry,and, to quote what the question
(01:31):
actually is, just wondering ifyou could do a talk about worry.
What's the Zen take on that?
By the way, we have really noway of knowing who the questions
are from, so if you would likecredit for your question, do
(01:51):
include your name in thequestion.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Because we do appreciate the feedback from our
fans and we do appreciate thequestions.
Yes, that really helps us tohone in on the needs of our
listeners Right, absolutely.
So we appreciate we appreciateyou.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, it's fantastic that this idea of these
questions coming up.
The way they're coming up is,uh, really nice, and we have
been kind of all over the map,not that it's a wrong thing or a
bad thing.
As we said, we meander, we'rewhirled through Zen eyes.
It's kind of a big place andmany topics are coming up.
(02:34):
Having said that, one couldsuspect that at some point in
time more nuance is going to berequired.
We paint these topics in ratherbroad strokes, as is the need,
at least the first time we'repassing through them.
(02:54):
So, who knows, maybe at somepoint in time we'll do a okay
retake, yeah, of a deep dive,whatever episodes right, and
really kind of try and hone in.
We do try to highlight somenuance at least to be taking
into account, or someperspective.
(03:16):
That perhaps is not the usualperspective, but within the
allotted time it really isimpossible to get down into the
details.
Also, having said that, thedetails really are case-by-case
basis.
(03:36):
So there's also this danger andI hope that our listeners
understand also this point thatthe suggestions, if you will,
that we make here are in factbroad and they are not always
(03:58):
usable to as we, as we practice,whether it's whatever in a work
that we take up, whateverself-inquiry that we're into, we
begin to compile a toolbox yes,right of tools and ways of
looking at things, and again,it's almost like this podcast.
(04:21):
It's it's as if this podcastwas a living being and it's
experiencing life and comes uponthese questions and these
topics and arrives at somehopefully meaningful
understanding of them, as we alldo.
They understand that sometimesone solution works in one case
(04:47):
under a set of circumstances,and it doesn't necessarily work
in other case, absolutelyBecause the other circumstances.
And so this is also, by the way, those of you who gnashed your
teeth to some degrees regardingthe words and the seeming attack
on academia, which it's such amisunderstanding of it.
(05:09):
I keep on hankering back tothat because we have to
understand that element.
Yeah, Anyway, no digression,let's get on with it.
Just just wondering, I wasworried you weren't going to get
to that.
I was, I was gonna go I wasgonna go.
(05:31):
I, I saw the, I saw the parting, you know sea, and I said I
shall cross it and uh, but no,we, we mustn't not always just
wondering if you could do a talkabout worry.
(05:52):
What does Zen take on that?
Perhaps a good place to startis what worry is not there is.
A worry is sort of an imposter.
It's made its way.
It cozied up to care as ifthey're best buddies, and so
(06:15):
worries made this move.
It's kind of shoulder up to theconcept of care and concern and
it almost sort of normalizeditself in that environment, you
know it's an imposter thingright and says, oh no, I belong
here, naturally.
I mean, if you care aboutsomething or someone, you will
(06:35):
worry about that, right, right,and it kind of puts that into
the person's mind and then theperson perhaps arrives at a
conclusion I must worry, if Icare.
If I love, then I worry.
If I care, then I worry.
(06:56):
If the thing is of interest tome, that means worry.
And so it's done, this magicalthing where it's normalized
itself and we have normalized itas a thing that is just
(07:17):
necessary and required.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
The other side of the coin, and if that coin on one
side is care, then the otherside it absolutely must be worry
it's like a teenager trying tosneak its way into a club with a
fake id fake id, it does notbelong there, but it wants to
slip its way in there that'sright and try to look and act,
you know, like a teenager thatuh keeps his mustache there
(07:41):
because he wants to look likehe's older, slips its way in,
tries to imitate the others thatare around them.
But when you take a deep diveand you look inside, the brain
just doesn't have the same levelof development that a mature
adult has.
And so this, what you pointedout, is so important.
People oftentimes have thiswrong association that worry
(08:06):
means that I care, and thatoftentimes makes it very
difficult for people to let goof the worry, because they think
if they drop the worry then itmeans that I don't care.
So I oftentimes try todifferentiate for people an
emotion at its best and anemotion at its worst.
So concern, a thousand percent,absolutely show concern, worry
(08:30):
that gets into the realm ofexcess, excess for no reason, it
doesn't match, it doesn't fitin, it doesn't serve any purpose
or function other than to causethe detriment of your mental,
emotional and physical health.
And we'll get into all of thatstuff.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, the dictionary definition that I just pulled up
To give way to anxiety orunease, allow one's mind to
dwell on difficulty or troubles.
Another definition is cause,annoyance, to cause, to feel
(09:07):
anxiety or concern.
The interesting thing is theOld English definition is sort
of the strangle and apparentlythere's a sort of sense of the
verb, gives rise to the meaningseize by the throat and tear or
harass, cause anxiety, etc.
(09:30):
So these are some things toconsider that this worry is give
way to anxiety or unease, toanxiety or unease, this element
and we could play with thewording here, but somebody came
(09:50):
up with it but it tracks for meTo give way to anxiety,
interesting way to put it right.
Right, so it's not a thing to do, but it's a thing that happens.
And then we surrender to it.
And we surrender to it on theaccount of, like we said that
(10:12):
we've come to believe that worryis a Siamese twin of care and
concern, of care and concern.
Worry is not.
So we're talking about whatit's not and what it's not it's
(10:36):
not care and worry is notproblem solving, nor is it
thinking, not problem solving,nor is it thinking of a solution
.
So all that it does none of it.
That it does brings one toremoval of what, the worry or
(11:06):
the cause that worries one is.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yet people don't know how to get out of that vicious
cycle of worry.
Sometimes I even wonder ifpeople are addicted to this
because it's been such along-time habit they don't know
any other way of confronting asituation.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I was, I was, they just resort right.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
They give way or they resort on on worry to get them
through.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I was giving a talk um some years ago at a senior
center and and a question ofworry came up and a woman spoke
up and she said well, I have adaughter and I worry about her
how come you say that worry isyou know?
(11:52):
so yeah, it's.
It's this imposter element thatworry has done.
It presents itself as anexpression of care.
To me, a a good example of waris, let's say, we're sitting
here, as we are in this studio,sitting here in the studio, with
(12:13):
the various electrical wiresand cables and lights, and
cameras and microphones and thelikes, and a pipe bursts and
starts dumping water into thespace, and you and I are sitting
here going, oh no, look at thewater coming in, and you say
(12:37):
yeah.
And we could go back and forth.
Well, my socks are getting wet,oh, mine are too, and now my
pant leg is getting wet minustwo.
Oh, what are we to do?
What was?
Oh, my goodness.
Then it's electrical wires andthings are sparking and, and you
know, catching a blaze and andcameras are twitching and
(12:58):
perhaps somebody's gettingelectrocuted, you know.
so, all this ongoing thing,while we are sitting here
looking around at it, going ohno, oh no, oh no, oh no.
That to me is what worry doesNothing.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Ultimately just consuming all of you.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Nothing as the water rises it just takes you under.
Oh no, oh no, and then youstart blowing bubbles.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
You end up drowning Still going, still worrying.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
You're still in the worry state, having done zero to
come up with a solution to theproblem, to look to, even to
have a thought like, oh, war iscoming.
What ought to be done, you know?
Should we?
Should we get out of here?
(13:50):
Should we unplug the thing?
Should we call somebody?
Should we something?
You know, none of the thoughtseems to be usually the kind of
thought oh, I should do this.
So it's, instead of spendingthe energy searching for a
solution to the problem, whatworry does is it just kind of
collapses onto itself and it'sjust this revolution of constant
(14:12):
same, same same same.
And then how can we honestly saythat that is an expression of a
care?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Right.
What you're saying also remindsme of the worry tombstone.
I don't know if you've seenthat.
Here lies a man who died todayworrying about tomorrow okay,
yes worried so much he killedhimself.
Tomorrow never came.
Whatever it was that tomorrowwas going to bring, where there
was like monsters and goblinsand ghouls, it never came
(14:44):
because the person worriedthemselves to death today.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, there was a saying.
I think today is the tomorrowthat you were worried about
yesterday, yesterday, yeah Right, and it is that, and I can't
quite crystallize it.
But there's another one thatsays something to the X amount.
Most of the things that I wasworried about never came to be,
and I think a number of fametime and a number of people have
(15:10):
said things like that rightlike time and time again.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I've watched countless horrific things
happening, all to neverexperience any of them right yet
then we can argue what is anexperience?
Right, because in the externalworld those things never, never
came to you.
But you experienced it in yourmind, which is true suffering,
(15:32):
and oftentimes, people who havesevere worry that becomes
anxiety.
It is almost like those thatsuffer silently.
It is almost like those thatsuffer silently.
There is an external expressionof anxiety, but this could be
the person that you're comingacross in the hallway at work
and they smile at you.
(15:53):
You smile back at them.
This could be a family memberand you might have no idea
because they're not externallyshowing it on their face or
using any emotional language tolet you know how they're feeling
.
Yet externally, showing it ontheir face or using any
emotional language to let youknow how they're feeling, yet
that person is like laying inbed on a thousand knives.
They can't get to sleep, theycan't get their mind off of
(16:15):
whatever it is that they'rebeing consumed by, and they just
go through life like a zombie.
Sometimes I use the metaphor,too, of of a tv channel.
I feel as though people withworry land on a channel that is
like a horror movie and theyhate horror movies and the
remote control breaks at thatinstant.
(16:37):
They don't know how to changethe channel.
They just stuck and they don'tturn their head either.
They're just stuck thereated,looking at that over and over
again.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
It's the Plato's cave , sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
It's sort of like Plato's cave You're chained and
you're forced to watch it.
And they believe that thoseshadows that are moving on the
wall is reality.
There's so many layers toPlato's cave.
Right they're chained, there'sa shadow of the self, and then
there's the whole world outsideof the cave that they're not
privy to any of those things.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Also if there were no light, right?
So yeah, but it is, I think,creating a separation in one's
mind that teases apart thisconnotation that care equals
(17:30):
worry.
Consider, if you will, yearsago I used to watch this Dr Paul
.
I think it was a show about aveterinarian, you know, kind of
a reality, they think, and, andat that time I was seeing him,
(17:51):
him, him, do you know, do theprocedures, do those things, and
it was sort of he would, he,would you know, help an animal
and then okay, what's next?
And sort of on to the nextthing.
(18:29):
And there was this almostelement of, as if the
requirement was like a fuzzyexpression of compassion and
this idea of like, oh, you know,you have to be externally kind
of, oh, you know, and you know,there's that fluff, and I'm not
downplaying anything to thatelement, but there's that kind
(18:53):
of fluff.
And then there's the urgency ofwell, there's another patient
that I have to tend to, so letme get to it.
So the expression of care thereis is almost, you know it, it
(19:13):
felt a little cold, but it's notbecause it's the urgency, you
know.
So the, the action of, oftending and and and and caring
for that animal, is care, right,the standing looking at it, oh
my, oh my, oh my is worry.
You can't heal with worry.
You can't heal another personwith worry and you absolutely
(19:36):
can't heal yourself with worry.
In fact, worry is damaging andwe've talked about this, that
there is a it completely goesagainst all logic.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Technical issue.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Technical issues go on.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
It completely defies all human logic, because if you
think about the state of mind ofa person who's worrying about
another individual thisoftentimes happens to parents
you hear this saying oh, I haveto worry, I'm a parent, and I
myself am a parent of two boysand I can completely empathize
(20:20):
and understand that perspective.
But let's break that down andapply a little bit of analytical
logic to that statement.
So I want to worry about mychild because I care about them
and I love them.
So let's say that child is nowcurrently undergoing, let's say,
a fever and, as a, if you havea child, there are many
(20:44):
sleepless nights that you havewhen your child gets sick and
you always worry about thingstaking a turn for the worse.
However, if a person constantlyworries about that person
because they're sick, ultimately, instead of having one person
who's sick, we end up having twopeople who are sick.
So now you want to worry aboutthat person, your child, so that
(21:08):
they can get better.
Yet now you become a burden.
You end up becoming a burden.
So now you render all of yourpower and all of your capacity
to heal, because worry will endup draining and causing
excessive fatigue.
(21:30):
So you're literally draining,sucking all of the energy out of
your body.
Your emotional resources becomedrained, your cognitive
resources will become drainedand then, ultimately, your
physical resources becomedrained, because you pumped all
of this energy into essentiallyjust something that really
(21:56):
doesn't serve a purpose or afunction.
Because what is the ultimategoal?
To heal or to provide support,to be a good listener, to make
good decisions.
Yes, in a moment of crisis,actually making a good decision
is vital.
That's why people who are firstresponders policemen, firemen,
(22:22):
emts, paramedics, emts,paramedics they're trained to be
able to have strong emotionalintelligence to manage their
anxiety and their worry, becausein a state of crisis, people
get something called attentionalnarrowing, so then their
(22:43):
ability to see the big picture,they get this tunnel vision,
they lose their ability to seethe big picture and then what
ends up happening is they're notable to make a good,
appropriate decision.
I've seen that.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So caregivers don't care if they're not worried.
They're not providing careEssentially.
Yes, you nullify that.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
You should be concerned, and this reminds me
of actually a story where ourunsanim had fallen you can
debate whether it was byaccident or on purpose into a.
There was some constructiongoing on in a house in edison.
Uh, his son was building a new,a new home and he had fallen
(23:35):
into, I guess, an area that had,if we could discuss purposely
or not.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Firstly, then fallen doesn't apply.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
But but the point is that you know you arrived, you
told me the story, you arrivedand you're seeing your teacher,
someone that you love verydearly in a like a lake of water
and then immediately, I guess,you were trying to help and you
weren't thinking and you wantedto like jump in, I think, and it
sounded like it would havecaused a disaster.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, the basement of the house was flooded.
And we're talking feet of rain.
This is wintertime and itflooded step by step.
So there were these sheets ofice and then it flooded again a
sheet of ice.
So when the story is, he putthe ladder in and he stepped on
(24:26):
it.
The ladder broke through thatand he had fallen into this, you
know, and and these sheets ofice are just like knives, you
know.
So his, I get in there and Ihear the splashing around and I
look into this gaping hole inthe floor.
That's where the staircase willeventually go and there's
unsung him.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
What did you eventually?
What did you originally thinkat first?
Because then I think he.
That's why I want to talk aboutwhat he said to you after.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Right, but initially you came in with some panic oh
yeah, what I, what I, you know,I'm like, oh okay, I was ready
to jump me too, because I'mgonna.
I'm gonna say like first of alland this connects to what I was
saying earlier.
Yeah, yes, you know.
So that's void that.
But also and I remember himlooking up at me with a smile on
(25:12):
his face and this is the thingand he smiles and he says what
are you doing, in the most calmof voices, right While treading
this ice water?
And he says what are you doing?
So I'm going to go in there?
And he looks at me like youwanna take a pause, take a
moment and just hear what yourthoughts?
(25:34):
you know, he didn't say that,but essentially that's what it
was.
So I was about to make oneproblem into two problems.
Why?
Because I'm helpful.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Right, but you were blinded yeah, by panic and worry
, panic and and it usually putsthose uh horse blinders on a
person and you get that tunnelvision and you just don't see
360 right and you people makepoor decisions.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
In that moment it fight, it finds no real solution
to the problem at hand and thento to the main point.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
You have one person that's drowning and then, when
you act, coming out of a placeof panic, now you have two
people drowning.
Now you have two peopledrowning.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, it absolutely is.
Worry really is it is useless.
I know this is not pleasant forpeople to hear.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Well, you know we're impacting.
That statement is impacting99.9% of society, because we're
literally living in the.
There's a funny phrase it'salmost, it's an oxymoron.
Actually, by definition it's anoxymoron.
It's called the worried.
Well, it's almost like thefunctional alcoholic and it's
referring to just the averageperson that has kids, that has a
(26:50):
job, that is in school.
We're almost been conditionedto be plagued by worry.
It's almost been like the norm.
Oh, this is the worried.
Well, they get up and doeverything they need to do, they
fulfill their responsibilities,but inside there's a lot of yes
, they're emotionally crippled.
(27:11):
There's a lot of loud noise.
And they don't know how theywant to run.
This is the thing.
They want to run away from it,they want to escape it.
But you can't jump out of your.
The same way you can't jump outof your skin, you can't jump
out of your mind, right, right.
So, people, they really.
This is a great topic because Ithink society as a whole needs
(27:31):
to find a better way to managethis, or to even view it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
To view it.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I think that's why we gotta start with that how to
view it.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
It's what it's not.
There's a power inunderstanding, and if we
understand that, what?
What worry is not?
It empowers us to want to leaveit alone or leave it behind or
do something about it.
But so long as we are of themind that it is the other side
(28:01):
of of care, we won't be able tounbind ourselves from it.
Right, we have to divorce thatconcept.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
We have to really take a saw and move the tethers
that bind those two thingstogether, those two concepts.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
As you know, like you said, it obstructs clarity, etc
.
Etc.
I frequently make references toone of my favorite books.
I I think some people hadfallen off the chair as they
heard me say books and favoritein the same sentence and my
favorite books.
That's it.
We, we might.
(28:40):
We might have called somehemorrhaging in some minds.
Of course I don't even have toname the title.
Those of our listeners whoparticipated at any point in
time in our meditation classesand specifically in the bonus
track which is the thing thathappens after the meditation
(29:02):
class, which is its own entity.
Of course, I'm talking about theGrapes of Wrath.
Oh, yes, yes yes, yes, ma, I'vebeen using that more.
Yeah, ma is a Zen master.
She really is, and this is notsolely a bit of writing, a bit
(29:23):
of writing.
I have seen this play out inreal life, and it's you know
(29:45):
what we perhaps would callsimple folk.
I don't mean that by aderogatory term.
Simply, you know people.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I think simplicity is something that we need to
really highlight and value.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Right, and you know.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Simplify things, we make them complex and we get
lost.
We complicate things.
We complicate things Absolutely.
We do.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
And you know so here we're talking about these
farmers, these you know poultryconditions, talking about these,
these farmers, this, this youknow poultry conditions, etc.
Etc.
They anyway the.
The idea is that it seemsalmost the simpler the outlook
(30:21):
frequently on life and farmersand people who seem to live
close to the earth, where thereisn't so much in between me and,
let's say, my food or me andand let's say my food, mm-hmm.
(30:44):
Ryan or me, and my, my warmth,mm-hmm.
I'm talking about people whoheat up their houses with, you
know, with wood, that kind ofthing.
There is a sort of simplicity inthat right and and and we see
that actually in society toothere's there's a pull towards
the homesteading and towards theoff, off grid type of thing
(31:07):
yeah anyway, it's a bit of adigression, but but this is not
only because it's in the writing, in in case, here in the grapes
of wrath, but I've seen this inpeople and a kind of people
Anyway.
So the family, well, the familyhas been uprooted.
(31:28):
They have to.
They've taken everything, theyloaded up the whole family on a
jalopy and they're kind ofpercolating up the road towards
California the promised land andin one of these instances
they've been on a road.
(31:51):
They're still new to the travel,but Al Al is the younger of the
children, so Al's driving andnext to us sitting grandma,
who's nodding off, and next tograndma is sitting ma, and ma is
my favorite zen master and I'llyou know they're talking about
(32:14):
other things and and I'll wait,and and.
And he mouths the questionbefore he speaks the words and
he says something to the effectof Ma, aren't you afraid, aren't
you worried of how it's goingto be when we get to California?
(32:35):
Aren't you worried and afraidthat it's not going to be how we
imagined it to be?
And Ma very quickly says no,it's a definitive no, right,
it's not a no.
It's a no, so she cuts it.
There's a saying in Zen whereyou strike the thing out with a
(33:00):
long sword, uh, in in zen, whereyou, you strike the thing out
with a long sword, right and,and the idea is, long swords are
powerful, and it's a and it's akind of strike down the thing.
So she says no, and and it's,there's a energy behind that.
No, it's a single word.
No, she said up ahead, there'sa thousand lives to live yes and
(33:22):
and I.
I just love this right ahead,there's a thousand lives to live
.
Yes, and I just love this Upahead, there's a thousand lives
to live.
There's too many lives to havea go at.
If I gave it a go now, it wouldbe too much, I couldn't do it.
(33:42):
So there's an acknowledgementon her account that life is
toilsome, life requires energyor whatever, and if you have a
thousand of these lives that youhave to spread yourself across,
she says I couldn't do it, sothere are too many lives to live
.
When we get there, there'll bea single life to live.
When we get there, there'll bea single life to live.
And then, whatever comes, I'lldo it Right.
(34:08):
The simplicity of it right.
This brilliance of it.
It's just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Because this is what worry is essentially right, and
anxieties, and it's inventionsof the mind.
And the worried mind will youknow, right now be like hmm,
it's not.
It's you know, it's all logicaland all you know, it's
foresight and whatever, and itwill make a slew of excuses for
(34:40):
itself.
But what it is is the mindinvents a thousand lives and
because the mechanism ofpreparation and kind of
essentially it's a survivalelement, right, so it's natural
in a sense, but it does, is it?
(35:01):
it catastrophizes everything,all of the thousand
possibilities are one thing, are, but they're terrible ones yeah
, the outcomes are always horrid, always problematic, always
disastrous, always whatever,right.
So the mind invents all of thepossible scenarios which then it
(35:23):
will have to navigate, whatever.
And so, again, another elementof worry is that on one hand,
it's either pitched as care oron another hand, it's either
pitched as proper, you know,sort of preparedness, right,
being prepared and ready.
So a readiness is if I didn'thave the worry, I wouldn't be
(35:43):
ready for the situations.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Again, but that aspect too can lead to excess
energy or unnecessary spending.
Sure, All you have to do istake a look at a news forecast
of snow in the state of NewJersey so you can see how
quickly eggs and milk get takenoff the shelves.
(36:10):
And then, time and time again,the weather forecast gets it
wrong.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
You'll have a vegan buying eggs and milk in a panic
state Seriously.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
you wasted your summer vacations, money on eggs
and milk for a storm that onlygave you one or two inches of
snow.
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
It's happened countless times and you bought
perishables If the storm hit andyou lose power and your
refrigerator is not going andwhatever it's it's um, and so
you here.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
You have another situation where you have this
emotional hijacking thatconsumes the individual, causes
them to respond with panic, tonow create so much waste waste
of, again, like I said, physicalresources, mental resources and
emotional resources.
And it doesn't end there,because this type of this is
(37:00):
this is like the opposite of thesmile that is contagious.
Anxiety is contagious too, soit has an impact on whoever is
in your immediate circle and inyour vicinity.
I'm sure we all know if youwere raised in a household with
a parent who's worried.
We also see that that hasimpacted the children's a static
(37:22):
transmission.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
There's a static almost as if in the air.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
That takes place and if you have and at work you
could say colleagues too thatare always in a state of panic,
they oftentimes are more sick,calling out more, and then
somebody else unfortunately hasto pull their weight because
they can't manage or hack thetasks in front of them, because
(37:49):
by the time they get to workthey already created a thousand
negative catastrophes and andthere's no energy left for
whatever tasks, that one life tolive that's right in front of
them there's no energy left forwhatever task, that one life to
live.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
That's right in front of them there's no energy left
for that.
On the way to work.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
They already wasted all of it.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
So, by the way, we are by no means suggesting sort
of a pathological states of apsychopath.
So what do we do then you don'tworry, right.
And if you have thatcorrelation, if you don't worry,
then you don't care.
So you take that emotionalstate off the table, right?
(38:28):
If you're not planning.
And if you're planning andthere isn't an element of worry
that you're not planning, that'sa recipe for a psychopath,
right?
There's no emotional kind of,it's just flatlined.
But that's not what we'resuggesting.
No, we're not suggesting thatthese emotions don't arise in a
person no what we're suggestingis when they do, how do you you
(38:53):
know, we there are there.
There are various, but there'sone particular list of ways to
deal with ponne, with worries,with excise, whatever, and the
first on the list is kwanchal.
And kwanchal means to look intoit, to inspect it, right.
(39:16):
There are other ones that areavoidance and discipline, and
being patient with, etc.
Etc.
But this first one of sort ofinspection and dissection for
the sake of understanding it, sothat we are not in fact duped
by the imposter element of it,right?
(39:39):
So if we understand that caredoes not require worry, to be
care, that tenderness does notrequire it's not that they are
sort of Siamese you could betender, you could be caring, you
could be compassionate.
In fact, compassion whycompassion is such a big word in
(40:02):
Zen is because it almost fitshere perfectly.
It's a care or love that has adifferent Siamese twin and it's
wisdom.
So, knowing how to navigatethat inner landscape of
emotional states, how tonavigate that inner landscape of
(40:25):
emotional states, worry arisesin the mind and, like you said,
if we get hijacked by it, weloop into.
I mean, this is, this is almostthe the mechanism of a panic
attack.
Right, it's a fixation on onething, hyper fixation.
You know.
Now I'm panting because I'manxious or whatever, and now I
hyperfixate on my heart rate,and the more I fixate on it, the
harder it beats.
And then you just spin out andthen you're in the back of an
(40:47):
ambulance.
So worry is not care, and worryis not a requirement for being
ready or being prepared.
And that doesn't leave you asan emotional kind of emotionally
castrated, just blah table.
It doesn't suggest that thesethings don't arise in you.
(41:08):
What we're suggesting is, whenthey do, what do you do with
them?
How do you look at them?
And this is how you look atthem that they are not
prerequisites, they are notrequirements, that they are not
in fact a necessity for allthose other states of being to
(41:28):
exist.
And so the sooner we recognizeworry for what it is, as it's
arising in the mind, the quickerwe can tend to it, you know,
and strip it of its own power.
Because there is an elementwhere we become so tangled up in
(41:51):
it that you can't come out.
You get so entangled in theworry that you've lost sight of
where the exit is or where thebeginning and the end, and it
just becomes one.
How?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
do we get?
Speaker 1 (42:03):
here Right how do I get here and there's a level at
which a person is convinced sothoroughly and so entirely that
their state of being is thenecessary state to be Right.
Because I'm just beseeched bysuch, you know, grief and worry,
and I'm so in it, it can onlybe the right place to be, it can
(42:29):
only be the right expression ofmy care for this person or for
that situation, or for thisthing, it is not.
What do we say then of any logic?
You know, emotion and logic arekind of we need the magic
potion between those.
(42:50):
So, an emotion arising and thisemotion of worry, and so long
as we keep it connected to thosefalse faces that it puts on, we
find that acceptable andunnecessary and we won't be able
(43:10):
to come out.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Let me give a quick metaphor example to be able to
differentiate between concernand worry, because, yes, these
things arrive in the mind.
We're not suggesting for peopleto be emotionally castrated and
, like you said, to just be likea dead piece of wood.
Let me make this very clearEmotions are real and emotions
(43:38):
all have their purpose and value.
They inform us and we have touse them.
but there's a difference betweenfeeling an emotion and becoming
drunk and intoxicated by theemotion using and being used,
then the emotion is using youand then that leads to countless
things that we have alreadyspoken about that become just
(43:59):
detrimental in your life foryour physical, emotional, health
, for your relationships and foryour goals, etc.
Etc.
So let's say you're working,let's say like at a UPS facility
and there's a conveyor belt,and then on that conveyor belt
there are boxes that arrive andyou have to sort it and put it
into the proper zip code so thatthat can then be dispersed by
(44:24):
the drivers and the packages canbe delivered.
That conveyor belt almost canrepresent the things that come
into your senses or the thingsthat come up as memories or the
things that you encounter inyour mind.
And let's say, one of the boxesyou notice it's missing a label
and you can be dismissive andjust pick that box up and then
(44:46):
randomly throw it into any kindof box without any understanding
or dissection or analysis ofthat box, and then now this poor
package never gets to the rightplace or right destination.
Somebody is missing whatever itis that they ordered.
So, being dismissive and notcaring, not concerned, we don't
(45:08):
suggest that.
Also, once you notice it, dosomething about it.
You can have an emotionalresponse.
Oh, I don't want this to becomea tragedy.
I don't want this plan not toplay itself out.
I don't want the person to befeeling like their package never
got to them and then nowthey're sad, that's okay, do
(45:29):
something.
You can do something about it.
You can pick it up.
You can then contact asupervisor, you can figure out
what label goes there, and thenyou put the label back on and
then guess what.
You have to sort it and put itin the box.
But if you, if you take that boxand you and you cannot figure
(45:50):
out what label goes on it andyou just hold on to it, hold on
to it and hold on to it and youdon't put it down until the
opportunity arises for you tofigure that out, how many boxes
pass you by and then end up notgetting sorted?
And then maybe things get jammedup and now you have this huge
pile of boxes that are therethat didn't get to the right
(46:10):
receptacles, and then you havean even bigger problem.
So pick it up, show concern,act on it, but you have to
eventually put it down.
Show concern, act on it, butyou have to eventually put it
down.
You have to eventually put itdown.
There's a healthy time frame inwhich you can be involved with
an emotion that means it informsyou.
(46:32):
And then, when you go into theexcess now, you're becoming
consumed by it and all the otherpieces of your life will end up
getting neglected and not beingattended.
And then now you have this hugepile that just creates this
emotional avalanche thatoverwhelms you and consumes you,
and now you are literallycrippled.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Zen's concern is with freedom.
Freedom, yes.
So this doesn't mean absence ofemotion.
This doesn't mean absence ofexperience.
This doesn't mean absence ofsadness or concerns or happiness
.
It doesn't make you emotionallycastrated kind of piece of wood
(47:20):
.
What we are after is, like yousaid, emotions and form.
And when that information comes, what's the second step?
And when there isn't a secondstep, we end up just sitting and
feeling, if you will, it is notfreedom.
(47:41):
No, even with the positiveexperiences in life, yes, right.
And this kind of brings me to.
We have a question, a suggestionof a topic for next podcast,
and it's very appropriate tothis topic.
(48:03):
Thank you for the gift of thispodcast.
I'd like to suggest happinessas a topic.
But what's?
What's interesting here is, forexample, in the context of the
US.
The Declaration of Independencerefers to life, liberty and
pursuit of happiness asinalienable rights.
However, by expecting ordemanding happiness to be our
(48:27):
default state of being, we canunintentionally increase our own
suffering.
What can we learn from Zenprinciples about developing a
healthier perception ofhappiness?
Does the alleviation ofsuffering mean happiness or
something more like neutrality?
Can we still pursue our ownhappiness and that of others
without being attached orclinging to the idea of
(48:50):
happiness.
So this is a lovely topic tokind of follow this one
Absolutely, because now we haveworry, which is generally viewed
as a negative don't do that.
And then we have happiness, andyou must absolutely do it.
And so, yes, the nuance of theterms and how to navigate these
(49:14):
things, but generally theprinciple is that of freedom.
Freedom, these emotions come up, they are present.
We're not suggesting that theymustn't, we're suggesting
understanding oneselfsufficiently enough to know to
use these things as tools.
If they inform you, then theinformation then is to be
gathered and used for something,not just sitting there being
(49:38):
informed.
Right, it's a little bit of aqualm of mind with certain way
that mindfulness has beenpresented.
You just sit there and you'rejust informed by the thing, but
it suggests almost nothing ofthe what's the next step to do?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
I think from the Zen perspective, we'll say the Zen
master.
When the Zen master experiencesan emotion, he knows he's
experiencing the emotion and healso knows because he keeps
wisdom very close to his hearthe also knows that all things
have a beginning, duration andan end.
So he also knows that thiswhich comes into being also has
(50:22):
a dissolution.
And this is where the freedomcomes into play.
Whether it's I have to applypay, what tool do I pull out of
my tool bag right now?
Do I have to apply patience andjust wait for this naturally to
dissolve, or do I have to usemy hammer and shatter this and
shift my awareness to somethingelse?
All of this requires right viewand right knowing.
(50:47):
Or we could say Wisdom, orenlightenment.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
If you want to get fancy about it, even better.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
The knowledge of it.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
But yes, so, as the song says, don't worry, be happy
, be happy.
So don't worry, be happy, behappy, so don't worry, be happy.
Let's talk about what that isin the next episode.
You do really compile and makea big, problematic situation
(51:18):
from worry.
Understand it when it arises,know what it is, know its true
face.
Don't be swayed by what itwants to tell you.
It's not care and it's not arequisite for planning and
(51:39):
preparation.
It's not a requisite forplanning and preparation.
If there was a least economicaluse of our energies, worry is
the first runner up.
It's such a waste of resources,of mind and health, etc.
(52:05):
Etc.
And it's wasteful on accountthat it does not provide a
solution, as we've mentioned.
So, yes, know thyself.
Yep, my name is Myo An Sin-yum.
I'm here with Dr Ruben Lambert.
Yes, until the next podcast,take care of yourselves and each
(52:28):
other.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Thank you for listening From my heart to yours
, and again I want to remind youto subscribe and like, and if
you hear something today in thispodcast that made your life
better, that brought happinessinto your life, that's a
wonderful thing.
That is what we want to do, butplease share that joy and
happiness with others.
Tell other people about theWorld Through Zen Eyes podcast.
(52:51):
Thank you very much, until nexttime.
Welcome back to the World Tres Un Eyes podcast.
I'm Yonan Sinim here, not withcrickets, but Hi, I'm Dr Ruben
Lambert.
Dr Ruben Lambert's good to beback here.
He's back, all is well.
As I have mentioned in our lastepisode, I didn't want to worry
a fan base, so sometimes thingscome up last minute and that
(00:39):
was one of those.
So I think sufficientsatisfaction has been
accomplished.
In terms of the last episode, Idid mention that if there were
mumbles and grumbles, no, I tooka listen and it was an
enjoyable podcast, I must sayall right.
Well, you were here in spirit,I was here in spirit, you sure
was here.
So you were here in footwearyes, so almost so, almost there.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Almost the entirety.
The footprint was always here.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yes, almost the entirety of the person was
available.
Well, for those of you whodidn't perhaps give it a listen,
forgiveness was the topic ofthe last podcast.
Podcast this time around worry,and, to quote what the question
(01:31):
actually is, just wondering ifyou could do a talk about worry.
What's the Zen take on that?
By the way, we have really noway of knowing who the questions
are from, so if you would likecredit for your question, do
(01:51):
include your name in thequestion.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Because we do appreciate the feedback from our
fans and we do appreciate thequestions.
Yes, that really helps us tohone in on the needs of our
listeners Right, absolutely.
So we appreciate we appreciateyou.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, it's fantastic that this idea of these
questions coming up.
The way they're coming up is,uh, really nice, and we have
been kind of all over the map,not that it's a wrong thing or a
bad thing.
As we said, we meander, we'rewhirled through Zen eyes.
It's kind of a big place andmany topics are coming up.
(02:34):
Having said that, one couldsuspect that at some point in
time more nuance is going to berequired.
We paint these topics in ratherbroad strokes, as is the need,
at least the first time we'repassing through them.
(02:54):
So, who knows, maybe at somepoint in time we'll do a okay
retake, yeah, of a deep dive,whatever episodes right, and
really kind of try and hone in.
We do try to highlight somenuance at least to be taking
into account, or someperspective.
(03:16):
That perhaps is not the usualperspective, but within the
allotted time it really isimpossible to get down into the
details.
Also, having said that, thedetails really are case-by-case
basis.
(03:36):
So there's also this danger andI hope that our listeners
understand also this point thatthe suggestions, if you will,
that we make here are in factbroad and they are not always
(03:58):
usable to as we, as we practice,whether it's whatever in a work
that we take up, whateverself-inquiry that we're into, we
begin to compile a toolbox yes,right of tools and ways of
looking at things, and again,it's almost like this podcast.
(04:21):
It's it's as if this podcastwas a living being and it's
experiencing life and comes uponthese questions and these
topics and arrives at somehopefully meaningful
understanding of them, as we alldo.
They understand that sometimesone solution works in one case
(04:47):
under a set of circumstances,and it doesn't necessarily work
in other case, absolutelyBecause the other circumstances.
And so this is also, by the way, those of you who gnashed your
teeth to some degrees regardingthe words and the seeming attack
on academia, which it's such amisunderstanding of it.
(05:09):
I keep on hankering back tothat because we have to
understand that element.
Yeah, Anyway, no digression,let's get on with it.
Just just wondering, I wasworried you weren't going to get
to that.
I was, I was gonna go I wasgonna go.
(05:31):
I, I saw the, I saw the parting, you know sea, and I said I
shall cross it and uh, but no,we, we mustn't not always just
wondering if you could do a talkabout worry.
(05:52):
What does Zen take on that?
Perhaps a good place to startis what worry is not there is.
A worry is sort of an imposter.
It's made its way.
It cozied up to care as ifthey're best buddies, and so
(06:15):
worries made this move.
It's kind of shoulder up to theconcept of care and concern and
it almost sort of normalizeditself in that environment, you
know it's an imposter thingright and says, oh no, I belong
here, naturally.
I mean, if you care aboutsomething or someone, you will
(06:35):
worry about that, right, right,and it kind of puts that into
the person's mind and then theperson perhaps arrives at a
conclusion I must worry, if Icare.
If I love, then I worry.
If I care, then I worry.
(06:56):
If the thing is of interest tome, that means worry.
And so it's done, this magicalthing where it's normalized
itself and we have normalized itas a thing that is just
(07:17):
necessary and required.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
The other side of the coin, and if that coin on one
side is care, then the otherside it absolutely must be worry
it's like a teenager trying tosneak its way into a club with a
fake id fake id, it does notbelong there, but it wants to
slip its way in there that'sright and try to look and act,
you know, like a teenager thatuh keeps his mustache there
(07:41):
because he wants to look likehe's older, slips its way in,
tries to imitate the others thatare around them.
But when you take a deep diveand you look inside, the brain
just doesn't have the same levelof development that a mature
adult has.
And so this, what you pointedout, is so important.
People oftentimes have thiswrong association that worry
(08:06):
means that I care, and thatoftentimes makes it very
difficult for people to let goof the worry, because they think
if they drop the worry then itmeans that I don't care.
So I oftentimes try todifferentiate for people an
emotion at its best and anemotion at its worst.
So concern, a thousand percent,absolutely show concern, worry
(08:30):
that gets into the realm ofexcess, excess for no reason, it
doesn't match, it doesn't fitin, it doesn't serve any purpose
or function other than to causethe detriment of your mental,
emotional and physical health.
And we'll get into all of thatstuff.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, the dictionary definition that I just pulled up
To give way to anxiety orunease, allow one's mind to
dwell on difficulty or troubles.
Another definition is cause,annoyance, to cause, to feel
(09:07):
anxiety or concern.
The interesting thing is theOld English definition is sort
of the strangle and apparentlythere's a sort of sense of the
verb, gives rise to the meaningseize by the throat and tear or
harass, cause anxiety, etc.
(09:30):
So these are some things toconsider that this worry is give
way to anxiety or unease, toanxiety or unease, this element
and we could play with thewording here, but somebody came
(09:50):
up with it but it tracks for meTo give way to anxiety,
interesting way to put it right.
Right, so it's not a thing to do, but it's a thing that happens.
And then we surrender to it.
And we surrender to it on theaccount of, like we said that
(10:12):
we've come to believe that worryis a Siamese twin of care and
concern, of care and concern.
Worry is not.
So we're talking about whatit's not and what it's not it's
(10:36):
not care and worry is notproblem solving, nor is it
thinking, not problem solving,nor is it thinking of a solution
.
So all that it does none of it.
That it does brings one toremoval of what, the worry or
(11:06):
the cause that worries one is.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yet people don't know how to get out of that vicious
cycle of worry.
Sometimes I even wonder ifpeople are addicted to this
because it's been such along-time habit they don't know
any other way of confronting asituation.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I was, I was, they just resort right.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
They give way or they resort on on worry to get them
through.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I was giving a talk um some years ago at a senior
center and and a question ofworry came up and a woman spoke
up and she said well, I have adaughter and I worry about her
how come you say that worry isyou know?
(11:52):
so yeah, it's.
It's this imposter element thatworry has done.
It presents itself as anexpression of care.
To me, a a good example of waris, let's say, we're sitting
here, as we are in this studio,sitting here in the studio, with
(12:13):
the various electrical wiresand cables and lights, and
cameras and microphones and thelikes, and a pipe bursts and
starts dumping water into thespace, and you and I are sitting
here going, oh no, look at thewater coming in, and you say
(12:37):
yeah.
And we could go back and forth.
Well, my socks are getting wet,oh, mine are too, and now my
pant leg is getting wet minustwo.
Oh, what are we to do?
What was?
Oh, my goodness.
Then it's electrical wires andthings are sparking and, and you
know, catching a blaze and andcameras are twitching and
(12:58):
perhaps somebody's gettingelectrocuted, you know.
so, all this ongoing thing,while we are sitting here
looking around at it, going ohno, oh no, oh no, oh no.
That to me is what worry doesNothing.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Ultimately just consuming all of you.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Nothing as the water rises it just takes you under.
Oh no, oh no, and then youstart blowing bubbles.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
You end up drowning Still going, still worrying.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
You're still in the worry state, having done zero to
come up with a solution to theproblem, to look to, even to
have a thought like, oh, war iscoming.
What ought to be done, you know?
Should we?
Should we get out of here?
(13:50):
Should we unplug the thing?
Should we call somebody?
Should we something?
You know, none of the thoughtseems to be usually the kind of
thought oh, I should do this.
So it's, instead of spendingthe energy searching for a
solution to the problem, whatworry does is it just kind of
collapses onto itself and it'sjust this revolution of constant
(14:12):
same, same same same.
And then how can we honestly saythat that is an expression of a
care?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Right.
What you're saying also remindsme of the worry tombstone.
I don't know if you've seenthat.
Here lies a man who died todayworrying about tomorrow okay,
yes worried so much he killedhimself.
Tomorrow never came.
Whatever it was that tomorrowwas going to bring, where there
was like monsters and goblinsand ghouls, it never came
(14:44):
because the person worriedthemselves to death today.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, there was a saying.
I think today is the tomorrowthat you were worried about
yesterday, yesterday, yeah Right, and it is that, and I can't
quite crystallize it.
But there's another one thatsays something to the X amount.
Most of the things that I wasworried about never came to be,
and I think a number of fametime and a number of people have
(15:10):
said things like that rightlike time and time again.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I've watched countless horrific things
happening, all to neverexperience any of them right yet
then we can argue what is anexperience?
Right, because in the externalworld those things never, never
came to you.
But you experienced it in yourmind, which is true suffering,
(15:32):
and oftentimes, people who havesevere worry that becomes
anxiety.
It is almost like those thatsuffer silently.
It is almost like those thatsuffer silently.
There is an external expressionof anxiety, but this could be
the person that you're comingacross in the hallway at work
and they smile at you.
(15:53):
You smile back at them.
This could be a family memberand you might have no idea
because they're not externallyshowing it on their face or
using any emotional language tolet you know how they're feeling
.
Yet externally, showing it ontheir face or using any
emotional language to let youknow how they're feeling, yet
that person is like laying inbed on a thousand knives.
They can't get to sleep, theycan't get their mind off of
(16:15):
whatever it is that they'rebeing consumed by, and they just
go through life like a zombie.
Sometimes I use the metaphor,too, of of a tv channel.
I feel as though people withworry land on a channel that is
like a horror movie and theyhate horror movies and the
remote control breaks at thatinstant.
(16:37):
They don't know how to changethe channel.
They just stuck and they don'tturn their head either.
They're just stuck thereated,looking at that over and over
again.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
It's the Plato's cave , sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
It's sort of like Plato's cave You're chained and
you're forced to watch it.
And they believe that thoseshadows that are moving on the
wall is reality.
There's so many layers toPlato's cave.
Right they're chained, there'sa shadow of the self, and then
there's the whole world outsideof the cave that they're not
privy to any of those things.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Also if there were no light, right?
So yeah, but it is, I think,creating a separation in one's
mind that teases apart thisconnotation that care equals
(17:30):
worry.
Consider, if you will, yearsago I used to watch this Dr Paul
.
I think it was a show about aveterinarian, you know, kind of
a reality, they think, and, andat that time I was seeing him,
(17:51):
him, him, do you know, do theprocedures, do those things, and
it was sort of he would, he,would you know, help an animal
and then okay, what's next?
And sort of on to the nextthing.
(18:29):
And there was this almostelement of, as if the
requirement was like a fuzzyexpression of compassion and
this idea of like, oh, you know,you have to be externally kind
of, oh, you know, and you know,there's that fluff, and I'm not
downplaying anything to thatelement, but there's that kind
(18:53):
of fluff.
And then there's the urgency ofwell, there's another patient
that I have to tend to, so letme get to it.
So the expression of care thereis is almost, you know it, it
(19:13):
felt a little cold, but it's notbecause it's the urgency, you
know.
So the, the action of, oftending and and and and caring
for that animal, is care, right,the standing looking at it, oh
my, oh my, oh my is worry.
You can't heal with worry.
You can't heal another personwith worry and you absolutely
(19:36):
can't heal yourself with worry.
In fact, worry is damaging andwe've talked about this, that
there is a it completely goesagainst all logic.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Technical issue.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Technical issues go on.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
It completely defies all human logic, because if you
think about the state of mind ofa person who's worrying about
another individual thisoftentimes happens to parents
you hear this saying oh, I haveto worry, I'm a parent, and I
myself am a parent of two boysand I can completely empathize
(20:20):
and understand that perspective.
But let's break that down andapply a little bit of analytical
logic to that statement.
So I want to worry about mychild because I care about them
and I love them.
So let's say that child is nowcurrently undergoing, let's say,
a fever and, as a, if you havea child, there are many
(20:44):
sleepless nights that you havewhen your child gets sick and
you always worry about thingstaking a turn for the worse.
However, if a person constantlyworries about that person
because they're sick, ultimately, instead of having one person
who's sick, we end up having twopeople who are sick.
So now you want to worry aboutthat person, your child, so that
(21:08):
they can get better.
Yet now you become a burden.
You end up becoming a burden.
So now you render all of yourpower and all of your capacity
to heal, because worry will endup draining and causing
excessive fatigue.
(21:30):
So you're literally draining,sucking all of the energy out of
your body.
Your emotional resources becomedrained, your cognitive
resources will become drainedand then, ultimately, your
physical resources becomedrained, because you pumped all
of this energy into essentiallyjust something that really
(21:56):
doesn't serve a purpose or afunction.
Because what is the ultimategoal?
To heal or to provide support,to be a good listener, to make
good decisions.
Yes, in a moment of crisis,actually making a good decision
is vital.
That's why people who are firstresponders policemen, firemen,
(22:22):
emts, paramedics, emts,paramedics they're trained to be
able to have strong emotionalintelligence to manage their
anxiety and their worry, becausein a state of crisis, people
get something called attentionalnarrowing, so then their
(22:43):
ability to see the big picture,they get this tunnel vision,
they lose their ability to seethe big picture and then what
ends up happening is they're notable to make a good,
appropriate decision.
I've seen that.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
So caregivers don't care if they're not worried.
They're not providing careEssentially.
Yes, you nullify that.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
You should be concerned, and this reminds me
of actually a story where ourunsanim had fallen you can
debate whether it was byaccident or on purpose into a.
There was some constructiongoing on in a house in edison.
Uh, his son was building a new,a new home and he had fallen
(23:35):
into, I guess, an area that had,if we could discuss purposely
or not.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Firstly, then fallen doesn't apply.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
But but the point is that you know you arrived, you
told me the story, you arrivedand you're seeing your teacher,
someone that you love verydearly in a like a lake of water
and then immediately, I guess,you were trying to help and you
weren't thinking and you wantedto like jump in, I think, and it
sounded like it would havecaused a disaster.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, the basement of the house was flooded.
And we're talking feet of rain.
This is wintertime and itflooded step by step.
So there were these sheets ofice and then it flooded again a
sheet of ice.
So when the story is, he putthe ladder in and he stepped on
(24:26):
it.
The ladder broke through thatand he had fallen into this, you
know, and and these sheets ofice are just like knives, you
know.
So his, I get in there and Ihear the splashing around and I
look into this gaping hole inthe floor.
That's where the staircase willeventually go and there's
unsung him.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
What did you eventually?
What did you originally thinkat first?
Because then I think he.
That's why I want to talk aboutwhat he said to you after.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Right, but initially you came in with some panic oh
yeah, what I, what I, you know,I'm like, oh okay, I was ready
to jump me too, because I'mgonna.
I'm gonna say like first of alland this connects to what I was
saying earlier.
Yeah, yes, you know.
So that's void that.
But also and I remember himlooking up at me with a smile on
(25:12):
his face and this is the thingand he smiles and he says what
are you doing, in the most calmof voices, right While treading
this ice water?
And he says what are you doing?
So I'm going to go in there?
And he looks at me like youwanna take a pause, take a
moment and just hear what yourthoughts?
(25:34):
you know, he didn't say that,but essentially that's what it
was.
So I was about to make oneproblem into two problems.
Why?
Because I'm helpful.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Right, but you were blinded yeah, by panic and worry
, panic and and it usually putsthose uh horse blinders on a
person and you get that tunnelvision and you just don't see
360 right and you people makepoor decisions.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
In that moment it fight, it finds no real solution
to the problem at hand and thento to the main point.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
You have one person that's drowning and then, when
you act, coming out of a placeof panic, now you have two
people drowning.
Now you have two peopledrowning.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, it absolutely is.
Worry really is it is useless.
I know this is not pleasant forpeople to hear.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Well, you know we're impacting.
That statement is impacting99.9% of society, because we're
literally living in the.
There's a funny phrase it'salmost, it's an oxymoron.
Actually, by definition it's anoxymoron.
It's called the worried.
Well, it's almost like thefunctional alcoholic and it's
referring to just the averageperson that has kids, that has a
(26:50):
job, that is in school.
We're almost been conditionedto be plagued by worry.
It's almost been like the norm.
Oh, this is the worried.
Well, they get up and doeverything they need to do, they
fulfill their responsibilities,but inside there's a lot of yes
, they're emotionally crippled.
(27:11):
There's a lot of loud noise.
And they don't know how theywant to run.
This is the thing.
They want to run away from it,they want to escape it.
But you can't jump out of your.
The same way you can't jump outof your skin, you can't jump
out of your mind, right, right.
So, people, they really.
This is a great topic because Ithink society as a whole needs
(27:31):
to find a better way to managethis, or to even view it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
To view it.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
I think that's why we gotta start with that how to
view it.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
It's what it's not.
There's a power inunderstanding, and if we
understand that, what?
What worry is not?
It empowers us to want to leaveit alone or leave it behind or
do something about it.
But so long as we are of themind that it is the other side
(28:01):
of of care, we won't be able tounbind ourselves from it.
Right, we have to divorce thatconcept.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
We have to really take a saw and move the tethers
that bind those two thingstogether, those two concepts.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
As you know, like you said, it obstructs clarity, etc
.
Etc.
I frequently make references toone of my favorite books.
I I think some people hadfallen off the chair as they
heard me say books and favoritein the same sentence and my
favorite books.
That's it.
We, we might.
(28:40):
We might have called somehemorrhaging in some minds.
Of course I don't even have toname the title.
Those of our listeners whoparticipated at any point in
time in our meditation classesand specifically in the bonus
track which is the thing thathappens after the meditation
(29:02):
class, which is its own entity.
Of course, I'm talking about theGrapes of Wrath.
Oh, yes, yes yes, yes, ma, I'vebeen using that more.
Yeah, ma is a Zen master.
She really is, and this is notsolely a bit of writing, a bit
(29:23):
of writing.
I have seen this play out inreal life, and it's you know
(29:45):
what we perhaps would callsimple folk.
I don't mean that by aderogatory term.
Simply, you know people.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I think simplicity is something that we need to
really highlight and value.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Right, and you know.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Simplify things, we make them complex and we get
lost.
We complicate things.
We complicate things Absolutely.
We do.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
And you know so here we're talking about these
farmers, these you know poultryconditions, talking about these,
these farmers, this, this youknow poultry conditions, etc.
Etc.
They anyway the.
The idea is that it seemsalmost the simpler the outlook
(30:21):
frequently on life and farmersand people who seem to live
close to the earth, where thereisn't so much in between me and,
let's say, my food or me andand let's say my food, mm-hmm.
(30:44):
Ryan or me, and my, my warmth,mm-hmm.
I'm talking about people whoheat up their houses with, you
know, with wood, that kind ofthing.
There is a sort of simplicity inthat right and and and we see
that actually in society toothere's there's a pull towards
the homesteading and towards theoff, off grid type of thing
(31:07):
yeah anyway, it's a bit of adigression, but but this is not
only because it's in the writing, in in case, here in the grapes
of wrath, but I've seen this inpeople and a kind of people
Anyway.
So the family, well, the familyhas been uprooted.
(31:28):
They have to.
They've taken everything, theyloaded up the whole family on a
jalopy and they're kind ofpercolating up the road towards
California the promised land andin one of these instances
they've been on a road.
(31:51):
They're still new to the travel,but Al Al is the younger of the
children, so Al's driving andnext to us sitting grandma,
who's nodding off, and next tograndma is sitting ma, and ma is
my favorite zen master and I'llyou know they're talking about
(32:14):
other things and and I'll wait,and and.
And he mouths the questionbefore he speaks the words and
he says something to the effectof Ma, aren't you afraid, aren't
you worried of how it's goingto be when we get to California?
(32:35):
Aren't you worried and afraidthat it's not going to be how we
imagined it to be?
And Ma very quickly says no,it's a definitive no, right,
it's not a no.
It's a no, so she cuts it.
There's a saying in Zen whereyou strike the thing out with a
(33:00):
long sword, uh, in in zen, whereyou, you strike the thing out
with a long sword, right and,and the idea is, long swords are
powerful, and it's a and it's akind of strike down the thing.
So she says no, and and it's,there's a energy behind that.
No, it's a single word.
No, she said up ahead, there'sa thousand lives to live yes and
(33:22):
and I.
I just love this right ahead,there's a thousand lives to live
.
Yes, and I just love this Upahead, there's a thousand lives
to live.
There's too many lives to havea go at.
If I gave it a go now, it wouldbe too much, I couldn't do it.
(33:42):
So there's an acknowledgementon her account that life is
toilsome, life requires energyor whatever, and if you have a
thousand of these lives that youhave to spread yourself across,
she says I couldn't do it, sothere are too many lives to live
.
When we get there, there'll bea single life to live.
When we get there, there'll bea single life to live.
And then, whatever comes, I'lldo it Right.
(34:08):
The simplicity of it right.
This brilliance of it.
It's just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Because this is what worry is essentially right, and
anxieties, and it's inventionsof the mind.
And the worried mind will youknow, right now be like hmm,
it's not.
It's you know, it's all logicaland all you know, it's
foresight and whatever, and itwill make a slew of excuses for
(34:40):
itself.
But what it is is the mindinvents a thousand lives and
because the mechanism ofpreparation and kind of
essentially it's a survivalelement, right, so it's natural
in a sense, but it does, is it?
(35:01):
it catastrophizes everything,all of the thousand
possibilities are one thing, are, but they're terrible ones yeah
, the outcomes are always horrid, always problematic, always
disastrous, always whatever,right.
So the mind invents all of thepossible scenarios which then it
(35:23):
will have to navigate, whatever.
And so, again, another elementof worry is that on one hand,
it's either pitched as care oron another hand, it's either
pitched as proper, you know,sort of preparedness, right,
being prepared and ready.
So a readiness is if I didn'thave the worry, I wouldn't be
(35:43):
ready for the situations.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Again, but that aspect too can lead to excess
energy or unnecessary spending.
Sure, All you have to do istake a look at a news forecast
of snow in the state of NewJersey so you can see how
quickly eggs and milk get takenoff the shelves.
(36:10):
And then, time and time again,the weather forecast gets it
wrong.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
You'll have a vegan buying eggs and milk in a panic
state Seriously.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
you wasted your summer vacations, money on eggs
and milk for a storm that onlygave you one or two inches of
snow.
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
It's happened countless times and you bought
perishables If the storm hit andyou lose power and your
refrigerator is not going andwhatever it's it's um, and so
you here.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
You have another situation where you have this
emotional hijacking thatconsumes the individual, causes
them to respond with panic, tonow create so much waste waste
of, again, like I said, physicalresources, mental resources and
emotional resources.
And it doesn't end there,because this type of this is
(37:00):
this is like the opposite of thesmile that is contagious.
Anxiety is contagious too, soit has an impact on whoever is
in your immediate circle and inyour vicinity.
I'm sure we all know if youwere raised in a household with
a parent who's worried.
We also see that that hasimpacted the children's a static
(37:22):
transmission.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
There's a static almost as if in the air.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
That takes place and if you have and at work you
could say colleagues too thatare always in a state of panic,
they oftentimes are more sick,calling out more, and then
somebody else unfortunately hasto pull their weight because
they can't manage or hack thetasks in front of them, because
(37:49):
by the time they get to workthey already created a thousand
negative catastrophes and andthere's no energy left for
whatever tasks, that one life tolive that's right in front of
them there's no energy left forwhatever task, that one life to
live.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
That's right in front of them there's no energy left
for that.
On the way to work.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
They already wasted all of it.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
So, by the way, we are by no means suggesting sort
of a pathological states of apsychopath.
So what do we do then you don'tworry, right.
And if you have thatcorrelation, if you don't worry,
then you don't care.
So you take that emotionalstate off the table, right?
(38:28):
If you're not planning.
And if you're planning andthere isn't an element of worry
that you're not planning, that'sa recipe for a psychopath,
right?
There's no emotional kind of,it's just flatlined.
But that's not what we'resuggesting.
No, we're not suggesting thatthese emotions don't arise in a
person no what we're suggestingis when they do, how do you you
(38:53):
know, we there are there.
There are various, but there'sone particular list of ways to
deal with ponne, with worries,with excise, whatever, and the
first on the list is kwanchal.
And kwanchal means to look intoit, to inspect it, right.
(39:16):
There are other ones that areavoidance and discipline, and
being patient with, etc.
Etc.
But this first one of sort ofinspection and dissection for
the sake of understanding it, sothat we are not in fact duped
by the imposter element of it,right?
(39:39):
So if we understand that caredoes not require worry, to be
care, that tenderness does notrequire it's not that they are
sort of Siamese you could betender, you could be caring, you
could be compassionate.
In fact, compassion whycompassion is such a big word in
(40:02):
Zen is because it almost fitshere perfectly.
It's a care or love that has adifferent Siamese twin and it's
wisdom.
So, knowing how to navigatethat inner landscape of
emotional states, how tonavigate that inner landscape of
(40:25):
emotional states, worry arisesin the mind and, like you said,
if we get hijacked by it, weloop into.
I mean, this is, this is almostthe the mechanism of a panic
attack.
Right, it's a fixation on onething, hyper fixation.
You know.
Now I'm panting because I'manxious or whatever, and now I
hyperfixate on my heart rate,and the more I fixate on it, the
harder it beats.
And then you just spin out andthen you're in the back of an
(40:47):
ambulance.
So worry is not care, and worryis not a requirement for being
ready or being prepared.
And that doesn't leave you asan emotional kind of emotionally
castrated, just blah table.
It doesn't suggest that thesethings don't arise in you.
(41:08):
What we're suggesting is, whenthey do, what do you do with
them?
How do you look at them?
And this is how you look atthem that they are not
prerequisites, they are notrequirements, that they are not
in fact a necessity for allthose other states of being to
(41:28):
exist.
And so the sooner we recognizeworry for what it is, as it's
arising in the mind, the quickerwe can tend to it, you know,
and strip it of its own power.
Because there is an elementwhere we become so tangled up in
(41:51):
it that you can't come out.
You get so entangled in theworry that you've lost sight of
where the exit is or where thebeginning and the end, and it
just becomes one.
How?
Speaker 2 (42:03):
do we get?
Speaker 1 (42:03):
here Right how do I get here and there's a level at
which a person is convinced sothoroughly and so entirely that
their state of being is thenecessary state to be Right.
Because I'm just beseeched bysuch, you know, grief and worry,
and I'm so in it, it can onlybe the right place to be, it can
(42:29):
only be the right expression ofmy care for this person or for
that situation, or for thisthing, it is not.
What do we say then of any logic?
You know, emotion and logic arekind of we need the magic
potion between those.
(42:50):
So, an emotion arising and thisemotion of worry, and so long
as we keep it connected to thosefalse faces that it puts on, we
find that acceptable andunnecessary and we won't be able
(43:10):
to come out.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Let me give a quick metaphor example to be able to
differentiate between concernand worry, because, yes, these
things arrive in the mind.
We're not suggesting for peopleto be emotionally castrated and
, like you said, to just be likea dead piece of wood.
Let me make this very clearEmotions are real and emotions
(43:38):
all have their purpose and value.
They inform us and we have touse them.
but there's a difference betweenfeeling an emotion and becoming
drunk and intoxicated by theemotion using and being used,
then the emotion is using youand then that leads to countless
things that we have alreadyspoken about that become just
(43:59):
detrimental in your life foryour physical, emotional, health
, for your relationships and foryour goals, etc.
Etc.
So let's say you're working,let's say like at a UPS facility
and there's a conveyor belt,and then on that conveyor belt
there are boxes that arrive andyou have to sort it and put it
into the proper zip code so thatthat can then be dispersed by
(44:24):
the drivers and the packages canbe delivered.
That conveyor belt almost canrepresent the things that come
into your senses or the thingsthat come up as memories or the
things that you encounter inyour mind.
And let's say, one of the boxesyou notice it's missing a label
and you can be dismissive andjust pick that box up and then
(44:46):
randomly throw it into any kindof box without any understanding
or dissection or analysis ofthat box, and then now this poor
package never gets to the rightplace or right destination.
Somebody is missing whatever itis that they ordered.
So, being dismissive and notcaring, not concerned, we don't
(45:08):
suggest that.
Also, once you notice it, dosomething about it.
You can have an emotionalresponse.
Oh, I don't want this to becomea tragedy.
I don't want this plan not toplay itself out.
I don't want the person to befeeling like their package never
got to them and then nowthey're sad, that's okay, do
(45:29):
something.
You can do something about it.
You can pick it up.
You can then contact asupervisor, you can figure out
what label goes there, and thenyou put the label back on and
then guess what.
You have to sort it and put itin the box.
But if you, if you take that boxand you and you cannot figure
(45:50):
out what label goes on it andyou just hold on to it, hold on
to it and hold on to it and youdon't put it down until the
opportunity arises for you tofigure that out, how many boxes
pass you by and then end up notgetting sorted?
And then maybe things get jammedup and now you have this huge
pile of boxes that are therethat didn't get to the right
(46:10):
receptacles, and then you havean even bigger problem.
So pick it up, show concern,act on it, but you have to
eventually put it down.
Show concern, act on it, butyou have to eventually put it
down.
You have to eventually put itdown.
There's a healthy time frame inwhich you can be involved with
an emotion that means it informsyou.
(46:32):
And then, when you go into theexcess now, you're becoming
consumed by it and all the otherpieces of your life will end up
getting neglected and not beingattended.
And then now you have this hugepile that just creates this
emotional avalanche thatoverwhelms you and consumes you,
and now you are literallycrippled.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Zen's concern is with freedom.
Freedom, yes.
So this doesn't mean absence ofemotion.
This doesn't mean absence ofexperience.
This doesn't mean absence ofsadness or concerns or happiness
.
It doesn't make you emotionallycastrated kind of piece of wood
(47:20):
.
What we are after is, like yousaid, emotions and form.
And when that information comes, what's the second step?
And when there isn't a secondstep, we end up just sitting and
feeling, if you will, it is notfreedom.
(47:41):
No, even with the positiveexperiences in life, yes, right.
And this kind of brings me to.
We have a question, a suggestionof a topic for next podcast,
and it's very appropriate tothis topic.
(48:03):
Thank you for the gift of thispodcast.
I'd like to suggest happinessas a topic.
But what's?
What's interesting here is, forexample, in the context of the
US.
The Declaration of Independencerefers to life, liberty and
pursuit of happiness asinalienable rights.
However, by expecting ordemanding happiness to be our
(48:27):
default state of being, we canunintentionally increase our own
suffering.
What can we learn from Zenprinciples about developing a
healthier perception ofhappiness?
Does the alleviation ofsuffering mean happiness or
something more like neutrality?
Can we still pursue our ownhappiness and that of others
without being attached orclinging to the idea of
(48:50):
happiness.
So this is a lovely topic tokind of follow this one
Absolutely, because now we haveworry, which is generally viewed
as a negative don't do that.
And then we have happiness, andyou must absolutely do it.
And so, yes, the nuance of theterms and how to navigate these
(49:14):
things, but generally theprinciple is that of freedom.
Freedom, these emotions come up, they are present.
We're not suggesting that theymustn't, we're suggesting
understanding oneselfsufficiently enough to know to
use these things as tools.
If they inform you, then theinformation then is to be
gathered and used for something,not just sitting there being
(49:38):
informed.
Right, it's a little bit of aqualm of mind with certain way
that mindfulness has beenpresented.
You just sit there and you'rejust informed by the thing, but
it suggests almost nothing ofthe what's the next step to do?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
I think from the Zen perspective, we'll say the Zen
master.
When the Zen master experiencesan emotion, he knows he's
experiencing the emotion and healso knows because he keeps
wisdom very close to his hearthe also knows that all things
have a beginning, duration andan end.
So he also knows that thiswhich comes into being also has
(50:22):
a dissolution.
And this is where the freedomcomes into play.
Whether it's I have to applypay, what tool do I pull out of
my tool bag right now?
Do I have to apply patience andjust wait for this naturally to
dissolve, or do I have to usemy hammer and shatter this and
shift my awareness to somethingelse?
All of this requires right viewand right knowing.
(50:47):
Or we could say Wisdom, orenlightenment.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
If you want to get fancy about it, even better.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
The knowledge of it.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
But yes, so, as the song says, don't worry, be happy
, be happy.
So don't worry, be happy, behappy, so don't worry, be happy.
Let's talk about what that isin the next episode.
You do really compile and makea big, problematic situation
(51:18):
from worry.
Understand it when it arises,know what it is, know its true
face.
Don't be swayed by what itwants to tell you.
It's not care and it's not arequisite for planning and
(51:39):
preparation.
It's not a requisite forplanning and preparation.
If there was a least economicaluse of our energies, worry is
the first runner up.
It's such a waste of resources,of mind and health, etc.
(52:05):
Etc.
And it's wasteful on accountthat it does not provide a
solution, as we've mentioned.
So, yes, know thyself.
Yep, my name is Myo An Sin-yum.
I'm here with Dr Ruben Lambert.
Yes, until the next podcast,take care of yourselves and each
(52:28):
other.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Thank you for listening From my heart to yours
, and again I want to remind youto subscribe and like, and if
you hear something today in thispodcast that made your life
better, that brought happinessinto your life, that's a
wonderful thing.
That is what we want to do, butplease share that joy and
happiness with others.
Tell other people about theWorld Through Zen Eyes podcast.
(52:51):
Thank you very much, until nexttime.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.