May 30, 2025 • 64 mins
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What if karma isn't what you think it is? In this mind-expanding conversation, we unravel the true nature of karma beyond the simplistic "eye for an eye" understanding that leaves so many people confused and doubtful.
Karma, at its core, simply means action – specifically the actions of body, speech, and mind. But where most of us get lost is in understanding how these actions connect to their results. We often expect a direct, linear relationship: if I push someone, I should get pushed back in exactly the same way. When life doesn't follow this pattern, we question whether karma exists at all.
The reality is far more intricate and fascinating. Imagine karma as a vast spider web where tugging on one thread affects countless others in often unpredictable ways. Your actions might return to you in a completely different "currency" than the one you used – what matters is the underlying quality of experience, not its exact form. This accounts for why seemingly "bad people" appear to get away with harmful behaviors – we're simply not seeing the full timeline or all dimensions of consequences.
Through vivid analogies and practical examples, we explore four different ways karma can manifest: visible causes with visible effects, visible causes with hidden effects, hidden causes with visible effects, and hidden causes with hidden effects. Understanding these patterns helps make sense of why life unfolds in sometimes mysterious ways.
The most liberating insight? You don't need to know your past karma to improve your present life. Rather than trying to decipher which past actions led to your current circumstances, focus on cultivating wakefulness in this moment. Only through awareness can you interrupt the habitual patterns that perpetuate your karmic cycles. Instead of trying to erase negative karma (which isn't possible), add more positive actions to your life – this changes what you'll encounter moving forward.
Ready to break free from limiting karmic patterns? Listen now and discover how wakefulness in the present moment is your most powerful tool for transformation.
Dr. Ruben Lambert can be found at wisdomspring.com
Ven. MyongAhn Sunim can be found at soshimsa.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello, my name is Jane and I'm a member of the
Soshimsa Zen Center.
If you haven't heard, one ofthe many benefits of our Zen
Center is a weekly podcastentitled the World Through Zen
Eyes.
You can find it on theSoshimsaorg website Just click
on the podcast's page.
(00:35):
It's a conversation between ourabbot, the Venerable Myung An
Sunim, and Dr Ruben Lambert, aBuddhist monk.
The subjects of theirconversation vary from week to
week and are often suggested bylisteners.
Our hosts discuss lifequestions and concerns within
(00:57):
the timeless wisdom of theBuddha.
Their discussions are friendlyand informal.
Their discussions are friendlyand informal, peppered with
humor and personal experiences.
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(01:22):
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(01:46):
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Click on the amount you wish todonate and it's that simple.
We hope you enjoy the livelyconversation and benefit for the
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Don't forget to listen for thenotification on your phone
(02:07):
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support.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Welcome back to another episode of the World
Through Zen Eyes podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm Myung An Sunim here with One week older,
reincarnated, and back again, DrRuben Lambert.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Welcome Nice to meet you.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Pleasure to meet you too In your new form, In your
new form, self In your newlocation, relatively speaking to
the stars and the planets.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yes to the moon and the sun and all that we have.
Well, this is kind of abuild-up episode, so we're going
to.
Karma is the main topic, but Iwill read you the listeners,
(02:56):
questions or comments, if youwill so, and of course, there
are the comments and therequests for topics that come
via the uh, our website, or thatlead that takes you to the bus
sprout page for for the podcastwhich?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
what's the?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
website.
Well, socialmsorg, you go tothe podcast page.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
But is there a direct page too?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's if you Google.
I think if you Google, like theWorld to Zen Eyes podcast, the
Buzzsprout page should come upas an option and that's where
the fan mail is.
Of course, you're alwayswelcome to send it through the
website, through the website,and many of the questions have
come through the Buzzsprout fanmail, but also a number of them
(03:51):
come up in just person, toperson interaction with our
members, or text message orthings of that nature.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
so everyone, encourage everyone to continue
to do that leave us commentssure if there are any questions,
any questions whatsoever, andeven even please drop us a line.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, even on YouTube .
I mean, you could comment onYouTube.
I believe you could comment onmany of the platforms.
I think Sure, yes.
So let's go chronologically.
Let's see.
It was a Lovely podcast today.
This is from May 16.
(04:29):
Lovely podcast today.
I have a suggestion.
You mentioned karma.
I am interested in finding outif we repeat our past karma for
a reason.
Are we aware that we are doingit?
Also, is there a way that wecan pay our karmic debt to
become free of it?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I guess, we'll start with a little humor again.
Well, hold on.
That's the one.
Oh, that's the one.
There's another one.
Yeah, that's the one.
There's another one.
Oh, another one.
Please go, go, go.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right so you mentioned karma.
I'm interested in finding outif we so it's the repeat of the
karma and we know that we'redoing it and can we become sort
of wipe the clay Sleen, tabularasa, wipe the clay.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Sleen.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Sigmund Freud used to say right and I and I say wipe
the clay, Sleen, because it'snot Sleen clay, or however that
seems like that, yeah, see, um,and we have another one, sling
clay or however that is, slingslate, see, and we have another
one.
Can we ever so?
This is another listener asking, commenting can we ever know
(05:33):
our karma?
How can we work it out withoutknowing?
Can we ever know if we paid ourkarmic debt?
So, what comes up so many timeshere and but this is not
unusual the these, this line ofquestioning and and thinking of
karma, is a very common thing.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
You had a so a 17 year old did really well in
school and on his birthday heopens the garage and there was a
bow on the car and he says tohis mom a bow, a bow, a bow,
like a bow, like a birthday bowon the car.
Oh, okay, on his 17th birthdaythat's the age they get their
driver's license so he looks atthe bow and he looks at his mom
and says, oh, is that my newkarma incoming?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
dad joke.
And then there was that famousone my karma ran over your dogma
.
Oh, that's a good one.
Yes, that's, I think, a goodstart.
We probably lost half theaudience by now with these dead
jokes, but no, they are fun andmeaningful too.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
So let's start with as we tend to do, defining the
terms.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
There should be like a little sound right now.
What is the sound of definingthe terms?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
We need a DJ.
So the very commoninterpretation of karma is that
it's a sort of action that wehave done that is then stored
somewhere and we carry that likethe door.
(07:19):
Death comes up frequently,Right comes up frequently right.
So we create some, you know,usually divided to negative and
positive karma, and how thosethings are stored and how do we
pay it back.
And it's a reasonable way tothink about it.
It's a common way that peopledo think about it.
(07:39):
It needs refining and it's sortof linear.
You know that the division ofthe duality of good and bad is
in there and all those things.
So we'll hack away at some ofthose things, not because they
(08:00):
are well I I used my myself usethe term karma in in that kind
of context, so we have tounderstand like what?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
like a common?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
like zen.
Yeah you're, you're so zen yeahyou're so zen enough.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It creates.
You get new meaning.
Yeah, right, so we can gobackwards to forward.
What is the original meaning?
How's it used in a commonmanner today?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
right, so you know you're so zen.
Usually to me you're someonecalm.
You're so calm and and I don'tknow that zen is calm or at
least that's another.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
What's so what?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
yes, yeah, like that, right, like that's another
misnomer, I think that people somisnomer, I think that people
so first and foremost, karma, orup is is what we call it in
korean up karma simply meansaction and in everyday korean
language there's a.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
When you meet someone you can say hello.
What kind of?
I guess?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
what service?
What's?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
your job in society, and it uses the word up too
right, that's very interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
So it's like the literal translation is sort of
what kind of karma are youmaking now, you know?
Speaker 3 (09:16):
type of thing.
It's your day-to-day actionthat you put into the system we
call society.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right, yeah, and piling, you know, because that's
the other term, the ancient wayof greeting in a sense, or
comments from a monk would notbe simply means reach,
enlightenment, it means theother one would be just how much
piling are you doing?
What you're piling?
What kind of what you'restockpiling?
(09:43):
Piling are you doing?
What are you piling?
What kind of?
What are you stockpiling?
What are you collecting?
Yeah, yes, and so stockpilingof you know, hopefully we want
the good Now.
So karma, just the word itself,a standalone op, means action,
action.
That then we divide into threeand three karma.
(10:07):
So we have the karma of theaction of the body, action, the
action of the speech, speechKarma, and the action of the
speech or the, the function orthe action of the mind.
So mind, karma, karma, speechkarma can be divided in a sense.
Now, of course, then we getinto the sort of details.
(10:32):
Well, you know mind creates andyou know the body and the
speech follows that, and youknow there's nuance in it, et
cetera, et cetera.
But generally speaking, that'sit.
Karma is what you do with yourmind, what you do with your body
, what you do with your speech.
Then we have a term calledobjang.
(10:56):
Jang is a container like a jar,a storage chest, if you will.
So container, and this is wherethe usual misuse of it comes in
.
A storage chest, if you will socontainer, and this is where
the usual misuse of it comes in.
This is not scolding, by theway.
You're using it wrong, right?
So we have op as an action andthen we have optung, which is a
(11:21):
kind of jar in which all of theactions are collected.
We're stockpiling something,and these two are usually what's
kind of used interchangeably.
Some people say, oh, somebodyfalls down.
They say, oh, you have bad karma, and somebody falls down.
They have bad karma suggests apunishment, in a sense, right,
(11:49):
it suggests this debt, right,this debt, and some, almost like
a godlike personal vendettaagainst you, like, oh, you know,
shoved, you get shoved into apuddle of mud, you know, while
waiting, waiting, wearing awhite suit, and then, and then
we look at it kind of very kindof linear and they say, oh, you
(12:10):
know, because when I was five, Ihad a friend that I pushed and
he fell and he got his pantsdirty and he got home he got a
whooping from his mom, and so wethink about that, and now here
say, aha, the debt is satisfied.
And frequently we do speak ofthose kind of ways in which it's
(12:39):
that the debt is paid in asense with the same currency.
But if you consider thecomplexity of life and the
interconnectedness of things,it's not a singular kind of
tether that connects oneparticular behavior necessarily
(12:59):
and only to that same kind ofbehavior on the other end of it,
like if I've shoved some kid myfriend when I was a child and
he fell and then I got home andgot in trouble for it, then
shoving- Would then be thereturn.
So now I must get shoved forshoving somebody, and albeit
(13:21):
sometimes that is kind of thepossibility, right.
But we do have to consider thiscomplexity of essentially what
is a kind of a spider web or anet that if you tug at it on one
side of a net, so many parts ofthe net move along with it to
(13:47):
varying degrees, right.
So you could, let's say, if youhad that magic kind of trick
not magic trick per se, but withthat set table and the
tablecloth, and how swiftly youcould kind of swipe the
tablecloth and not knock overall the things, if you kind of
yank on it, chances are somethings will just be shifted,
(14:11):
some things maybe will not beshifted and some things will
fall over, you know, if youhaven't completely kind of
swiped it off the table.
So this is a, I think, a goodway to consider karma and and
that kind of connection.
It's not necessarily you getshoved for shoving, you get
pushed for pushing.
Underlying that linear kind ofthing of you get shoved for
(14:39):
shoving, it's the resultingsuffering, right, or benefit,
but so the flavor, if you will,of suffering in a sense it's.
(15:02):
you know, let's say, sufferingis bitter, and so various
degrees of bitterness areavailable, generally speaking.
Well, let's let's say it inthis example that all suffering
is bitter to varying degrees,and it doesn't have to be a
bitter melon, it could be abitter strawberry, it could be a
bitter, whatever rightitter isthe point, not the exact thing
(15:27):
that is there, it's thebitterness of it.
So not necessarily shoving, youknow, shoving, shoving eye for
an eye kind of thing, but youknow, I mean eye for a kidney
also works.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's like there could be a bitter fruit
that is your return, but thecontainer in which it travels to
you could be different.
Like there could be a bitterfruit that is your return, but
the container in which ittravels to you could be
different.
It could be on a plate, itcould be in a box, it could be
on a giant leaf.
Yeah, all of that can vary yeah, it doesn't have to be exactly.
Then I think, when you, when wethink linear, we get trapped
(16:00):
into this sense of, uh, logicalreasoning, sure, right, and some
of these things when they enterthe sphere of the unknown and
the mystery realm, logic justdoesn't apply there in that
realm, right?
So we can give some examplesand things like that of, and
there is a portion actuallywhere there's the immediate
return right, immediate returnright, where that might be able
(16:27):
to give people a directunderstanding of almost like the
physics behind, you know,actions and the return or cause
and effect.
But that's just, you know, oneleaf in a forest of
possibilities, right?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
so yeah, so so the idea, the idea of karma, we
could say, is sort of seed,because it's related to yin-gua
or yin-gua-eng-bo Yin-gua, yinis the seed, gua is the fruition
of it, right, eng-bo are likethe conditions, so usually
(16:58):
translated as causes andconditions type of thing which
expands on this linear kind ofsingular tether.
And also this is a veryimportant thing to mention that
it is largely due to that lineartethering of cause and effect,
(17:26):
in the way, like you said, thatwe logically expect it to be,
that people find the let's callit, the believing in karma
challenging, right, because ifthere is such a you know, almost
nearly a physical, tangibletheater, right, and it says well
, look at that person, you knowthat person's a bully, look at
(17:50):
that person, that person'sabusive, that person's doing
this thing, but they've goneaway with it.
And where's the terror?
Where's the karma?
Where's the cause and effect?
Where are all these things?
They're there.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
People ask that question oftentimes when they
see these types of situations.
Where's the justice Right?
And they get lost sometimes,and people sometimes feel a
sense of misery, a sense ofbeing betrayed, because you know
the action hasn't arrived yetto that person and we have to
consider that what they'relooking for is not justice.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
What they're looking for is not justice.
What they're looking forfrequently is revenge in some
expression of it, and also whatthey're looking for is justice
as they see, just as they wouldlike to see the thing done.
Which is kind of like oh, youchop off a thief's hand for
(18:45):
stealing, kind of thing rightyou use the hands to steal, so
chop it.
And and this is where we getinto well, he used the mind to
steal and the hand was innocentyou know, the hand just followed
the orders of the mind rightand the hand is just meat and
nerves and muscles so and andthen, and then what you, you
(19:06):
know it's, it's punishment, uh,and revenge versus education,
and and you know we could godown the rabbit hole because you
know there's, there's, there'slayers and layers and severities
of transgressions of one managainst another, and all that
(19:27):
kind of thing makes then us,sort of puts us in the position
of being the judge, and hardlyis, you know, is it our work and
(19:53):
our job to be the judge ofthings.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Well, one can argue then at that moment.
Well, there would be a naturalflow, like of karmic events,
that would occur, let's say, ifa person did steal something,
and that is like a, let's saythere's a ripple effect no
different than if you throw arock into a lake.
That happens all of itself.
But when the person now entersinto, let's say, that system,
(20:19):
the order of the system, andimposes a judgment, now you've
created some karma there toothat you're going to be
responsible for being judgmentaland and yeah, yeah it's, you
know it's I could, versus kindof accepting and and
understanding the law ofinguambo, cause and effect, and
allowing it to come to fruition.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
It's it's a whole different.
It does.
It's a whole different.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Now we're now we're entering into into a whole other
thing, which is which is partof it, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I mean, we meander right because what?
What then?
Creating of the judgmentalmindset?
Yeah, you know that, that, thatfunny joke of some people are
judgmental.
Some people are so judgmental Icould just tell by looking at
(21:11):
them, right, you know holierthan thou that kind of thing.
So, to circle back to it, so wehave the action of mind, body
and speech.
We're called their karma.
Then we have the action of mind, body and speech.
We're called that karma.
Then we have the collection ofsaid, the stackpiling of those
things.
Then we have to consider therather complex system, the net
(21:39):
of intertwined, interwovenstrings and tatters and lines
and things of that naturepsychological, physiological.
All of that makes it a rathercomplex network which, like we
said, tends to make itchallenging for people to accept
that justice.
In a sense it's served.
(22:02):
And, yeah, because we have thisconcept of the eye for an eye.
So, unless an eye is taken outfor an eye, then it doesn't
count.
But, like I said, how about akidney for an eye, or a spleen
for an eye, or a heart for aneye, or whatever for an eye?
You know it could get all kindsof the there's a value.
(22:30):
So another way to think of itis we could.
We could think of a currency,right?
A x amount of lira, an x amountof rupees equates to x amount
of dollars, to x amount ofshillings, whatever it is it.
There's a exchange rate, butunderlying it there's a value,
(22:54):
and the value gives youpurchasing power, but it's
expressed in a different,different currency, in a sense.
And so just because you'veshoved your best friend at a
childhood who has fallen, andthen went home and got a
whooping and yelling andcouldn't play for a week because
(23:14):
we ruined the sunday best,doesn't mean that now the
repercussions of it has to beverbatim in your life, right?
It doesn't have to be the sameexact thing.
Are the instances where it isabsolutely?
I mean, if you punch somebody,they're likely to punch you.
Are they going to punch you inthe same place, in your face?
(23:35):
Are they going to punch yourface?
They might kick you, they mightelbow you, they might knee you,
they might, you know, take abar stool across your head or or
see that you love your car and,instead of hitting you back,
key your cars or blow out the
Speaker 1 (23:49):
windows whatever, yeah so it's.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
It's there's a transfer of energy there and,
and you know also, that kind ofenergy is neither created or
destroyed nor destroyed, it justchanges form.
It's kind of applicable to thiskarmic thing.
So it's it's not necessarily Ifor an eye right, so necessarily
I for an I.
(24:13):
So hopefully that makes senseRight Now.
Not only is it not necessarilyI for an I, but then what we
also have is the time, theseason of sprouting.
You think of it as the seasonof sprouting.
You think of it as the seasonof sprouting.
Not all seeds planted in yourgarden sprout at the same time.
(24:39):
Tomatoes and your cucumbers andyour cherry, your whatever,
your arugula, they all havetheir own time of sprouting,
depending on their sort of DNAmakeup, if you will.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
I just told a patient yesterday about this.
He's kind of caught up in thiscycle where he feels a little
down in the press because hehasn't come into his own
fruition based on his efforts athis job.
He hasn't received thepromotion that he wishes to
receive.
And I told him some people aretomatoes, some people are apples
(25:17):
.
Some people come into their ownand receive the rewards for
their actions in 90 days, liketomatoes, right, they come
fairly quick and what appletrees takes about five years.
Not everything has the samereturn rate right.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And then we have that other complexity of each
individual person's uniqueness,and so a tomato is not a tomato,
tomato tomato is not this.
You could, we could, you and Icould go to the store, buy the
same tomato plant and we couldgo home into our individual
gardens and plant it.
(25:54):
And then we'd check in.
It's like, oh, I'm gettingtomatoes, and the other was like
I'm not Because why?
I mean?
It's the same plant.
So that is to say we could saysame action, same seed, right of
the same variety, sameeverything.
I mean we could live, you couldplant those, even in your own
(26:14):
gardens.
You could plant those.
You know, if you plant it 12feet apart, it's going to
potentially make a differencebecause if your ph of the soil,
you know, to the right of yourplot, you know, and you planted
something else, that otherplants, that an altered the ph
and and the, the nutrientcontent of the soil, and then 12
(26:38):
feet to the left, you'replanting the same tomato.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
They might very well grow different rates, at
different speeds, flourish ornot flourish so ultimately right
, it's like what are thosespecific conditions when you
have a question?
We're giving a general overcastright of the, the way you know
karma or opchang is can work insomebody's life, right, but for
the specifics, right, you haveto know exactly.
(27:01):
You know it's like oh, how longwill this tomato plant take to
grow, right, well, what kind of?
What kind of soil, what kind ofsun, how frequently do you
water it?
Right that that's so specific.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, is your house blocking the sun?
Yeah, is your house blockingthe sun?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Before that we can say yeah in general, on average,
but for the actual qinon ortrue experience, you have to be
there and experience it for whatit is.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
And that's the yin guo, yin guo.
Yin guo means seed and thefruition of the seed, yin bo are
the surrounding conditions inwhich this is happening.
So it's tomato plant or tomatoseed.
It's going to fruit a tomato.
(27:50):
But depending on now the call,the other surrounding causes and
conditions whether you knownumerous, numerous, right, then
those two situations are goingto vary, and there's you know,
do you want to go through this?
Yeah, we'll go we'll go throughthem to, to, to give a little
bit more of a idea.
(28:12):
Now there's that famous storyof a monk seeking to reach a
temple and has been walking forhowever many days you know, not
con, not, it's just, you knowit's a long journey and he
finally sees the, the kind ofend of the journey sort of
(28:32):
coming.
And as he's walking he sees afarmer and he asks the farmer
how long to such and such temple?
And the farmer looks up andsays walk.
And the monk's like no, I'masking how long to the such and
such temple Walk, walk.
No, I'm asking how long to thesuch and such temple Walk.
(28:54):
How long to the such and suchtemple, walk Right.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
And so he gets upset, starts walking and the farmer
looks up and is like 40 minutes,Right, Right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Because how long that's?
Speaker 3 (29:11):
the same thing.
That's your clients, right?
What's your race?
We say that all the time.
Thing that's your clients.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Right, we said all the time yeah, how long till I
get well, at what pace?
Yeah, how fast are you walking?
Are you planning a break?
Are you doing this?
Are you doing that?
You know it's, it's going tovary.
So how long to the temple isgoing to depend on the various
causes and conditions.
Now, having said that, so wehave wow, this is very organized
(29:38):
.
Today we have the action,that's the karma.
We have the container of theaction we call.
We've established that thoseare sometimes used independently
or, I'm sorry, interchangeablySometimes.
What we mean is you have badkarma.
We mean, generally speaking,what that means is you've
(29:59):
collected how, what's, whatstockpile do you have?
And then right, and then wehave to, kind of, I, I believe
it was, um, I don't know, was ital capone?
There was a, one of the famous,uh, mobsters that was finally
(30:23):
imprisoned and and even hisprison cell, I think, was like
bellagio style.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
He had a couches and a tv and whatever, when
everybody else's was, you know,barren cells and and yeah, yeah,
yeah right, there was a moviewhich was based on a true story
I forget if it was good fathersor one of those mobster things
and yeah they were living it upin prison.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
They had everything they needed right and and
penthouse suite in there, yeah,and, and I think that you know
he, he was finally busted for Idon't know he, you know, shot
dead.
I don't know, tommy and uh, Ithink it was like the first
night or I.
I don't recall the details ofthe story.
(31:06):
I you know that I I franklydon't care about details of
stories, largely right, just thepoint is the point?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Good points or bad points?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I use language the way that was quoted in Humpty
Dumpty, that I use words forthem to mean what I mean.
Them to mean, or something likethat yes, yes, yes and anyway.
So come nightfall, the guardshear this guttural, feared
screams.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
I believe that was alcohol Howling right.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
And they're like what in the world is going on.
They get to the cell and hesays Tommy, it's Tommy, it's
Tommy.
So he was essentially haunted by, whether in kind of
supernatural haunting ways orpsychological haunting ways or
schizophrenia or, uh, you know,dementia, I don't care what he
(31:57):
was tormented, but but you know,when we look at it from outside
, we could say, you know, hekind of got away with it even,
even while in jail, his while injail, he's, you know.
(32:19):
And then we could say, well,he's having a glimpse of what
his future is like.
Yes, future meaning after thislife, the next future, and we've
talked about reincarnation and,and we have to remember that
this, the storage, the stockpilecontainer of our karma, is akin
(32:42):
to the black box on theairplane.
The airplane goes down, crashesinto bits and smithereens.
You take the black box, youinstall it in another airplane.
Now that airplane has that same, it's the same.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Every single thing that the airplane did is stored
there.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Or like the content of your computer.
You change the computer but youwant your stuff in it or your
phone, like I want my contactswhen I change a phone.
I need my contacts changed in myapps and all of that how
interesting, how interestingthat this is what the technology
is kind of coming out.
I mean it's out but you knowit's developing in that
(33:26):
direction of what, from the Zenperspective, already is.
It's just a material, physical,technological manifestation of
that which is already existing,and the idea there is that
(33:47):
nothing, in a sense, is invented, it's just rediscovered, it's
already existing.
So this idea of cloud and we'vetalked about the ariashic, you
know, and the consciousness, thestorehouse consciousness, and
that kind of thing, so yeah,lifetime to lifetime.
Now for a nice and tidy episode,as this has been.
(34:13):
There are four, as you saidright.
So we've established in-gwa isthe cause and effect or the seed
and fruition, un-bo are theconditions that surround it.
We have chonin chon gwa choninum gwa hyonin.
(34:35):
Hyon gwa, hyonin um gwa.
I love these yes so um and sortof yin, yang kind of thing.
Think of it, yin yang and yinyang or um yang.
Think of that then as a table.
What's on the table, what'sunder the table?
(34:58):
That's a good image.
So yin and yang, what is underthe table?
That is visible.
You can see what's on top.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Underneath, you cannot see.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yes, visible by everybody.
Underneath is as if it wereanother realm, kind of the
hidden side, the dark side, thenight side, the unknown kind of
thing.
So we have the top of the tableon the table, under the table,
and this is how we further canunderstand the complexity and
why.
It's sometimes a trap to thinkof karma and it's kind of
(35:33):
fruition as this eye for an eye.
And if it's not eye for an eye,ha see, there's no karma.
Because on the table cause Onthe table result.
On the table cause Under thetable result.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Right, let me just give you two.
I just thought of imagine awhole dinner set up right, and I
and I knock down your drink andthen you go and everyone sees
that that's sitting at the tableright and then you go and grab
the person next to his drink andyou throw it at my face.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Everybody sees it's all in all, in the public or in
the known, it's all obvious.
Everyone saw that.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
I knocked down your drink and everyone saw that you
threw the drink back at me.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Very good.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Another one is I knocked down your drink.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Everyone saw that then you kicked me under the
table and I kicked you under thetable.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Nobody could see that your shin knows you're in pain.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Exactly, that's perfect, right.
So there's the seen or visibleand the cause visible and the
result is visible.
Like you said, I knock over youthing.
It's sort of tit for tat, eyefor an eye, we could even say.
Then there's the visible cause,invisible result.
(36:49):
So people see that I've knockedover your thing, People don't
see that I've kicked you in theshin and again.
So now, if we leave it at that,consider the countless
(37:13):
perspectives that people thenhave on it.
Oh, he did so, he did, Ispilled your thing, you threw
water, that okay.
And people will say that isjustice, Kind of you know.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Because they saw.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
They see, they were exposed to their eyes and they
were able to connect the dots.
Yes, so justice has beenreenacted right and so that may
be satisfactory to people.
It's like, okay, well, you didthat and now you did that and
everybody could go home andsleep.
Well, Now we do that water inthe face, you know, boot to shin
(37:50):
, that is unseen, and then thatcould leave people at the table
going oh, no, justice has beenserved.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
That's almost then, like Al Capone being in like a
penthouse suite in the prisonRight and people can't see his
experience the torment.
He was in the hell.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Didn't sleep howling Right.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah, so we have that .
So the boot to shin.
Unknown is the result of thecause known.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I gotcha so option two Three Option three Shen, I
(38:46):
mean boot to.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Shen, I throw the water in your face.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
I think this is a common one, one because then
what does the crowd say or howdo they react at that moment?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
I've attacked, I've attacked you.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
They don't know where this came from, because the
cause is hidden.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Right.
So they think like this guyjust rudely threw water in the
other person's face unjustly,without any sort of causality,
seemingly right.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
I think this one is is the hardest one for some
people to comprehend.
That maybe this ties into thisidea of like my cause, and this
might be a little bit of atangent.
We don't have to go there, butI just want to highlight here I
did something in my past life.
Today I received the effect andit comes out of nowhere and
people oftentimes ask my God,why is this happening to me now?
(39:36):
Because you cannot see thecause that was hidden.
But we know from the law ofkarma that there was a cause.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
We know from the law of the universe that there's a
cause.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
You said the same thing.
You just got to observe theworld and the universe, and you
could see that principle at playthere.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And so what is the warping element is our ego.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Because another thing too, the ego, can come into
play and then harbor not harborhinder you from working past
that moment and finding a way torelease yourself from that
karma.
This might answer some of theother people's questions,
because the ego at that momentfeels, maybe angry why did this
(40:24):
happen to me personally?
guilty, like some, guilty,shameful uh feeling, feeling uh
persecuted like someone,something is punishing me, and
all of those hinder your abilityto have the perspective or the
view of wisdom to be able towork through this situation in a
(40:45):
healthy manner that can freeyourself, unbind you from,
because oftentimes, what do wedo?
We put back into the system thesame thing that was done onto
me.
You don't like it, but then wenow have to relive that once
again, over and over again.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
But again, that might be no, it's absolutely so, and
and and it's that idea of of Iam innocent, that is kind of as
a backdrop of that I am innocent, why I was just sitting here.
Nothing happened.
This is people watching that,this thing unfolding.
You know, I put to shin you,you wanted to face me, and and
(41:23):
one of us is viewed by the groupas as the attacker and and
without a cause and without acause right, and the other is
viewed as a victim.
And now, if you have a, if thisis a kind of on one's personal
level, the ego is going toalways gravitate towards I am
(41:43):
innocent, you know, because evenif I've done it in anger, even
if I've done a thing in anger,then the ego will then search
out for justifications for myanger.
And so this is I am simplyrebalancing the scales.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
I think a good way to handle that.
I'm gonna take a situation thatI witnessed with Unsanim, our
teacher, and Bokchon, one of hisstudents, where he asked a
question somewhere along thelines like how could, uh, this
accident, let's say, happen toyou when you do so much
meditation, so much keto, somuch prayer?
(42:20):
And his answer to me isbrilliant and genius and says at
one time you know, today I havelight, today I have wisdom, but
at one time I was mumian, and Ithink that goes for everyone
across the board.
At one time in the way past Iwas ignorant, I didn't know
better, but I still have to if Idid something with those terms.
(42:53):
It frees you from becomingangry, feeling persecuted,
feeling like, oh, but I'minnocent, why is this happening
to me?
All those unhealthy states ofthinking and all those unhealthy
emotional reactions that willnot free you or unbind you from
the karmic consequences.
It will just further enhanceand amplify whatever is
(43:16):
tormenting you today.
I like that response well,absolutely, I mean.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
And then so we have that kind of causality is
unknown and the result is known.
Right, so we're still, we, oh,I think.
I think we still have everybodyhopefully on board.
It's like all right, you dosomething, it's above the table,
action and reaction.
Above the table, action, underthe table reaction, under the
(43:42):
table action, above the tablereaction.
And we only have onecombination left I kick you in
the shin.
This is the sibling thing,right I?
kick you in the shin, you kickme in the shin, because mom and
dad, if they see us punchingeach other and kicking each
other, we'll both be in trouble.
Sorry, I kick you, you kick me,I kick you, you kick me, I kick
Nobody at the table knows.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
But they turn around and the parents look and
everyone's folding their hands.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Very pious, nobody did anything Bleeding from the
shins, and so, in those cases,it's the action, as we said, is
hidden, and then the result, thereaction to, is hidden, that is
to say, that is to say, a thiefwho steals from an empty house
(44:54):
under the cover of the dark getsaway.
Now, if we take into accountthe way that each individual
person's already pre-existingkarma collection in that karma
jar, right, what kind of afertilizer they have for the
(45:15):
seeds of the growth of theiractions.
So again, now we have anotherlayer.
So it could be very complicatedand very thing.
The main point is we cannottrace directly one thing to
another.
What we can, however, do ishave this attitude, which is
(45:35):
very challenging for people,granted, is that whatever
befalls me is mine, and it's notsort of woe is mine, because if
I have something nice happen tome, it too is mine.
(45:57):
So celebration, isn't, you know, also like you could enjoy it.
It's not like, oh, it's.
And also, nor is it allpredetermination, because now
that's a whole other element.
It's like, well, then, ifeverything we've done it's a
cause and effect, then we haveno choice.
Then that's not the case.
That's a potential, anothertopic of that free will business
(46:18):
.
But so again, we could considerit's if it's I for an eye or I
for shin right right, or I forkidney right.
So it's not only in the waythat we suffer, even when we
(46:39):
think of the physical sufferingand things, of the karmic
terrors, albeit so complicated,and they do not mean that the
person is bad, they do not meanthat the person was bad right,
because then we say well, I dida bedside visit to a gentleman
(47:01):
once who asked why me?
He was riddled with brain tumorsriddled, and so this was
hospice situation.
Riddled with brain tumorsriddled, and so this was hospice
(47:21):
situation.
But he exercised, he ate right,he ran 5Ks, numerous 5Ks.
So you know, it's a sort of Idid all the things right, why me
?
Kind of situation.
It's an oversimplification ofthe complexity of life, because
(47:43):
someone could, you know, I meanthere are cancer doctors who
will say one person could smoketheir whole life and they'll be
fine, and the other person hasnever, smoked and they have lung
cancer, you know.
So those kinds of things.
It's and and this isn't to saynow, and and I want to really
stress this to our audiencewho's listening If you have lung
(48:07):
cancer, do not even begin tooccupy your mind with I must
have done something bad, I, whatdid I do?
And that's not what this is.
The point of the point of it is, everything has a sort of cause
and effect and in that web ofthe cause and effect, in, in
(48:31):
this very moment, my karma inthe pure meaning of the word,
namely that my action isaffecting that storage container
of my priorly collected,stockpiled karma.
Now to circle back to thequestions that that keep on
(48:57):
coming back, namely how do we solet's go with the can we pay
back our, uh, karmic debt?
No, it's not.
It's not a matter of payback,because payback, then what do
you return to?
What state of your bank accountdo you return to when you've
(49:18):
paid back?
It's there, we did it.
It's there, it's stored.
Now, think of it more in termsof scales.
You know that kind of typicalhow much heavy karma negative,
how much good karma negative youhave.
So what all what we are in inought to attempt is to create
(49:43):
more of the positive thing,create, create more good karma
and not concern ourselves witherasing bad karma.
Storage house is a storehouse.
It stores everything.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Ariyashic consciousness stores all of our
actions, as we've mentionedbefore, good and bad If I can
maybe highlight this with just apractical example, and it's not
exactly the way it works, butit kind of gives the point.
If you had just a largecontainer and in that container
you had the option of collectingone of two things One is
(50:17):
seashells, which are verybeautiful and you may like them
and they're pretty, or the otherone are rocks and, playing into
the probability game, it's likedepending on how much you've
collected.
Let's say you've collectedthree rocks to every seashell.
If you think about it, ifthat's been what you've been
doing throughout your lifetime,if you close your eyes and stuck
your hand into that container,what might you be more likely to
(50:40):
pull out?
A heavy rock or a beautifulseashell?
If you notice that every timeyou put your hand in there you
have this heavy rock and youdon't like that.
Well, you can't dump all therocks.
What can you do?
Well, add more seashells andthen, maybe a year or two, we
don't know, whenever you stickyour hand in there, what do you
pull out?
A nice, beautiful seashell.
So it's on a practical sense,like you're saying, in that
(51:03):
scale, once you grow in wisdomand you understand these laws,
these uh concepts that we'reexplaining here.
Well, what can you do to betteryour situation if you just feel
like everything that comes toyou is against you or isn't what
you wish for, or you're workingso hard and you're not getting
(51:25):
what you want?
Speaker 2 (51:27):
so now to to piggyback on that.
What we then have is thequestion can we know our karma?
And so that question stilllives in that perspective on
karma, as in what the questionasks is can we know the
container op chang, not op, butop chang?
(51:47):
Can we know the container opchang, not op but op chang?
Can we know the storehouse ofour karma?
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Yes, forget about it, forget about it.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Yeah, forget about it .
What is a more necessary thingto do is, as you are acting out
your life, wakefulness and wetalk about it ad nauseum.
Right, Wakefulness is your keyhere.
That is to say, when I beginsaying something, when I begin
(52:21):
doing something, when I beginthinking something, those mind,
body and speech karmas, right,when I begin, I have to
recognize how much of a habitenergy is involved in that,
because those rocks that you'vementioned create a sort of
habituation, A magnetic pulltowards it.
(52:41):
So we have a habitual way ofliving on a physical level.
I mean, if you eat your lunchat a certain time, you don't
ever have to think about lunch.
Your stomach juices and yourbile excretion is going to kind
of burn your stomach to saywe're expecting food because you
know if you go to sleep atcertain time, you're likely to
(53:04):
be sleepy, so there's a habitualenergy.
We could say that as part ofthis whole karmic network.
This is also true emotionally,which is why emotional
intelligence is such a criticalthing that we're trying to
develop, right?
If you 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, howmany abusive relationships do
(53:24):
you have to go through torealize I keep getting myself
into these relationships, whichthen I end up being hurt by.
So how late in the game do Iwake up to it, right?
Or can I recognize the patternpattern?
(53:51):
Can I recognize the habitualkind of proclivity towards being
drawn to a certain person, acertain type of personality,
whatever, and so in that stateof wakefulness is where the
interruption in the karmichabitual energies happens.
And this is how we address thepast karma, not because we can't
go into the past and doanything there, right, so to
(54:13):
sort of.
And then there's this otherunderstanding or this kind of
flight of fancy to say thisthing happened to me, and this
usually is connected to thatlinear, very simplistic
perspective.
I was in a car accident, or Iwas coming to the temple and
(54:34):
somebody was rushing and shovedme and I fell.
And then we have a memory oh,little Johnny, when I was a kid
I remember I pushed him.
Ah, this is kind of the phantomof little Johnny, kind of
reenacting his karmic sentenceupon me.
Speaker 3 (54:54):
Forget it those connections, forget it Right
Drawing.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Those connections have no value for when it comes
to bettering or improving yourlife, right, and we have so many
stories that are kind ofsimplistically like that, right,
but we have to remember that isnot the only expression of it.
That happens.
And when we fall victim to thisthinking that it must be kind
(55:19):
of verbatim, then we misssomething else, because then we
find in other circumstances thisis well, I've never pushed
anybody into the puddle of mud,so I was kind of faultless in
being pushed or shoved.
But we said the currenciesexchange at various different
(55:41):
levels.
Speaker 3 (55:43):
And all that does is just create a ripple of doubt in
your heart, and that's going tomake you not believe in
whatever system you'repracticing whatever you thought
was happening, or you'reengaging into better your life.
You're gonna suddenly ejectyourself out of that all because
it didn't make logical sense toyou at that very moment.
You couldn't connect the dots.
(56:03):
Yeah, that's, that's some asangright there to asangang ego
that's some very strong ego, andit is.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
That's the thing.
Frequently, what we get withthese kind of perspectives is a
fanciful reorganization of themundane, less fancy flavor of
(56:33):
suffering.
Suffering on account of somespiritual principle is no
different than suffering onaccount of some very kind of
materialistic, you know, grossprinciple of suffering, if you,
you know this, ideas that areintertwined into spirituality
(56:57):
and religions, and those thingsare not outside and not
available to getting mixed intothe gears, the great gears that
make us suffer on a day-to-daybasis.
So now I've learned about karma.
(57:19):
For what purpose?
For what reason?
What are you to do with theinformation that we just spent,
you know, however, many 50minutes, probably talking about
Right?
So it's not to plunge a persondeeper into suffering.
It's not to cause, you know now, some depressive state of, oh,
this is my life and these arethe situations, and so I must
(57:43):
have been a horrible person inmy past life.
And, and you know, consider ifyou have a glimpse of your past
life and it's like ah, I was.
You know, cleopatra, I wasclear, everybody that has a
glimpse everybody's a cleopatraI was a woman stealing in the
(58:05):
supermarket Sprite.
For what?
Why, what?
What does that mean to me today?
You know so.
Speaker 3 (58:15):
I really love your point of wakefulness.
I think that's a verysignificant and an important
skill I think our audienceshould try to cultivate.
Of course, puglia, buddhismteaches that through the
practice of meditation and, andyou've given an example in past
podcasts that I think is alsorelatively a good point here.
It's the one from theDhammapada, where a village that
(58:37):
is sleeping when the tsunamicomes in at night is just
everything is washed away, swept.
So I guess just to make twodifferent points there, one if
you wake up in the middle ofthat and you aren't sleeping
right, you're wakeful, you cando so you can not swim, you can
survive but even better, whichis, I think, the goal that we
work towards is, let's say, likethe fire tower or the
(58:58):
mountaintop effect, where yousee it from a high, from a high
point and then you can see itmuch, much earlier, before the
tsunami gets there, and thenthere you can plan, you can take
out the things that you value,you can rescue other people, so
forth and so on.
So yeah, the wakefulness point,though, I think is important, is
waking up and being able tothat's where life happens, tied
(59:19):
in the flow of your life right.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
So no matter what the karma element of our past,
karma is, no matter what the youknow, and so we didn't even get
into the sort of karmaproducing fortune, because
that's really the kind of causeand effect.
But you know, it's good enough,I think.
I think it's good enough.
Speaker 3 (59:43):
And Pulio does have another remedy for this, and
it's boshi.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
And that's something I think we have to also address
in future episodes too.
Speaker 2 (59:53):
Absolutely.
I mean, the temple is a groundfor people to cultivate
generosity.
Speaker 3 (59:57):
The Buddha, after his enlightenment, what did he have
his disciples do?
Because he felt verycompassionate towards the people
in the villages who were verypoor.
Right, he had them go out andbeg, beg, yeah To help them.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Seven houses on each trip, right, don't discriminate
between the houses a shack or amansion or whatever, who people
give what they can give.
And I like the I frequently,when I speak on this idea of the
begging bowl, I like to saythat it's full to the brim with
(01:00:34):
fortune and it's thatdisplacement thing you know,
kind of eureka.
It's like how you know you getin a bathtub and what amount of
water spills out, and so that'sthe thing.
But it's opportunity for, yes,creating karma kind of snowing
over the.
Let's call it the bad karma tocover up the bad karma with good
(01:01:00):
karma.
That's the or tip the scales ifyou wanna go with that.
Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
And you could really turn that between the exchange
of all the different typesclothing Boshi different.
Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I mean, that could be a whole episode, right there,
yeah, on generosity and the 12or so various divisions of it.
Absolutely, it is important tounderstand that only in the
state of wakefulness and theself-awareness that we could
(01:01:35):
alter karma.
Sitting and dwelling on it,sitting, and even, frankly,
sitting and pondering it is fornothing, because the pondering
of it is either pondering thingsof the past, you know, and it's
Wake up to your life in thehere and now.
(01:02:00):
When you are awake, like yousaid, you could catch the thief,
and the thief here being ourkarmic, habituated mode of
operation that perpetuates acertain way and it plunges us
again and again and again,repeatedly, into the same set of
(01:02:22):
causes and conditions.
Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
And the person who is mindless and not aware
continuously responds to thatsame situation that triggered an
emotional or a behavioralresponse, thinking this is the
way I must be or this is the wayI must act.
When the wool is pulled overyour eyes and you're not wakeful
(01:02:54):
and you cannot see the causesand conditions or what your
karmic and that could beemotional, mental or speech
habits that you've formed andcreated throughout your life,
you're just responding andthinking well, this is what I
know, this is how I must act.
And then the return is justlike a merry-go-round or Ferris
(01:03:17):
wheel, with someone going aroundthere with their hands sticking
out, just slapping you in theface, and then you slap them
back and then the hand comesaround again, slap them back and
then the hand comes aroundagain, and you have no idea why
this is occurring, becauseyou're not aware of where in
this continuum you can interrupt.
We want to interrupt it andthen start a new flow going into
(01:03:40):
a positive, hopeful direction,so that your life can be better
and improve.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yes, sir, I am Milan Salim.
Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Until next time take care of yourselves and each
other.
I'm Dr Ruben Lambert, from myheart to yours.
Subscribe and like, and if youlike what you hear, please,
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(01:04:16):
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Hello, my name is Jane and I'm a member of the
Soshimsa Zen Center.
If you haven't heard, one ofthe many benefits of our Zen
Center is a weekly podcastentitled the World Through Zen
Eyes.
You can find it on theSoshimsaorg website Just click
on the podcast's page.
(00:35):
It's a conversation between ourabbot, the Venerable Myung An
Sunim, and Dr Ruben Lambert, aBuddhist monk.
The subjects of theirconversation vary from week to
week and are often suggested bylisteners.
Our hosts discuss lifequestions and concerns within
(00:57):
the timeless wisdom of theBuddha.
Their discussions are friendlyand informal.
Their discussions are friendlyand informal, peppered with
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(02:07):
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support.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Welcome back to another episode of the World
Through Zen Eyes podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm Myung An Sunim here with One week older,
reincarnated, and back again, DrRuben Lambert.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Welcome Nice to meet you.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Pleasure to meet you too In your new form, In your
new form, self In your newlocation, relatively speaking to
the stars and the planets.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yes to the moon and the sun and all that we have.
Well, this is kind of abuild-up episode, so we're going
to.
Karma is the main topic, but Iwill read you the listeners,
(02:56):
questions or comments, if youwill so, and of course, there
are the comments and therequests for topics that come
via the uh, our website, or thatlead that takes you to the bus
sprout page for for the podcastwhich?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
what's the?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
website.
Well, socialmsorg, you go tothe podcast page.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
But is there a direct page too?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's if you Google.
I think if you Google, like theWorld to Zen Eyes podcast, the
Buzzsprout page should come upas an option and that's where
the fan mail is.
Of course, you're alwayswelcome to send it through the
website, through the website,and many of the questions have
come through the Buzzsprout fanmail, but also a number of them
(03:51):
come up in just person, toperson interaction with our
members, or text message orthings of that nature.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
so everyone, encourage everyone to continue
to do that leave us commentssure if there are any questions,
any questions whatsoever, andeven even please drop us a line.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, even on YouTube .
I mean, you could comment onYouTube.
I believe you could comment onmany of the platforms.
I think Sure, yes.
So let's go chronologically.
Let's see.
It was a Lovely podcast today.
This is from May 16.
(04:29):
Lovely podcast today.
I have a suggestion.
You mentioned karma.
I am interested in finding outif we repeat our past karma for
a reason.
Are we aware that we are doingit?
Also, is there a way that wecan pay our karmic debt to
become free of it?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I guess, we'll start with a little humor again.
Well, hold on.
That's the one.
Oh, that's the one.
There's another one.
Yeah, that's the one.
There's another one.
Oh, another one.
Please go, go, go.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right so you mentioned karma.
I'm interested in finding outif we so it's the repeat of the
karma and we know that we'redoing it and can we become sort
of wipe the clay Sleen, tabularasa, wipe the clay.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Sleen.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Sigmund Freud used to say right and I and I say wipe
the clay, Sleen, because it'snot Sleen clay, or however that
seems like that, yeah, see, um,and we have another one, sling
clay or however that is, slingslate, see, and we have another
one.
Can we ever so?
This is another listener asking, commenting can we ever know
(05:33):
our karma?
How can we work it out withoutknowing?
Can we ever know if we paid ourkarmic debt?
So, what comes up so many timeshere and but this is not
unusual the these, this line ofquestioning and and thinking of
karma, is a very common thing.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
You had a so a 17 year old did really well in
school and on his birthday heopens the garage and there was a
bow on the car and he says tohis mom a bow, a bow, a bow,
like a bow, like a birthday bowon the car.
Oh, okay, on his 17th birthdaythat's the age they get their
driver's license so he looks atthe bow and he looks at his mom
and says, oh, is that my newkarma incoming?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
dad joke.
And then there was that famousone my karma ran over your dogma
.
Oh, that's a good one.
Yes, that's, I think, a goodstart.
We probably lost half theaudience by now with these dead
jokes, but no, they are fun andmeaningful too.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
So let's start with as we tend to do, defining the
terms.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
There should be like a little sound right now.
What is the sound of definingthe terms?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
We need a DJ.
So the very commoninterpretation of karma is that
it's a sort of action that wehave done that is then stored
somewhere and we carry that likethe door.
(07:19):
Death comes up frequently,Right comes up frequently right.
So we create some, you know,usually divided to negative and
positive karma, and how thosethings are stored and how do we
pay it back.
And it's a reasonable way tothink about it.
It's a common way that peopledo think about it.
(07:39):
It needs refining and it's sortof linear.
You know that the division ofthe duality of good and bad is
in there and all those things.
So we'll hack away at some ofthose things, not because they
(08:00):
are well I I used my myself usethe term karma in in that kind
of context, so we have tounderstand like what?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
like a common?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
like zen.
Yeah you're, you're so zen yeahyou're so zen enough.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It creates.
You get new meaning.
Yeah, right, so we can gobackwards to forward.
What is the original meaning?
How's it used in a commonmanner today?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
right, so you know you're so zen.
Usually to me you're someonecalm.
You're so calm and and I don'tknow that zen is calm or at
least that's another.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
What's so what?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
yes, yeah, like that, right, like that's another
misnomer, I think that people somisnomer, I think that people
so first and foremost, karma, orup is is what we call it in
korean up karma simply meansaction and in everyday korean
language there's a.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
When you meet someone you can say hello.
What kind of?
I guess?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
what service?
What's?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
your job in society, and it uses the word up too
right, that's very interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
So it's like the literal translation is sort of
what kind of karma are youmaking now, you know?
Speaker 3 (09:16):
type of thing.
It's your day-to-day actionthat you put into the system we
call society.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right, yeah, and piling, you know, because that's
the other term, the ancient wayof greeting in a sense, or
comments from a monk would notbe simply means reach,
enlightenment, it means theother one would be just how much
piling are you doing?
What you're piling?
What kind of what you'restockpiling?
(09:43):
Piling are you doing?
What are you piling?
What kind of?
What are you stockpiling?
What are you collecting?
Yeah, yes, and so stockpilingof you know, hopefully we want
the good Now.
So karma, just the word itself,a standalone op, means action,
action.
That then we divide into threeand three karma.
(10:07):
So we have the karma of theaction of the body, action, the
action of the speech, speechKarma, and the action of the
speech or the, the function orthe action of the mind.
So mind, karma, karma, speechkarma can be divided in a sense.
Now, of course, then we getinto the sort of details.
(10:32):
Well, you know mind creates andyou know the body and the
speech follows that, and youknow there's nuance in it, et
cetera, et cetera.
But generally speaking, that'sit.
Karma is what you do with yourmind, what you do with your body
, what you do with your speech.
Then we have a term calledobjang.
(10:56):
Jang is a container like a jar,a storage chest, if you will.
So container, and this is wherethe usual misuse of it comes in
.
A storage chest, if you will socontainer, and this is where
the usual misuse of it comes in.
This is not scolding, by theway.
You're using it wrong, right?
So we have op as an action andthen we have optung, which is a
(11:21):
kind of jar in which all of theactions are collected.
We're stockpiling something,and these two are usually what's
kind of used interchangeably.
Some people say, oh, somebodyfalls down.
They say, oh, you have bad karma, and somebody falls down.
They have bad karma suggests apunishment, in a sense, right,
(11:49):
it suggests this debt, right,this debt, and some, almost like
a godlike personal vendettaagainst you, like, oh, you know,
shoved, you get shoved into apuddle of mud, you know, while
waiting, waiting, wearing awhite suit, and then, and then
we look at it kind of very kindof linear and they say, oh, you
(12:10):
know, because when I was five, Ihad a friend that I pushed and
he fell and he got his pantsdirty and he got home he got a
whooping from his mom, and so wethink about that, and now here
say, aha, the debt is satisfied.
And frequently we do speak ofthose kind of ways in which it's
(12:39):
that the debt is paid in asense with the same currency.
But if you consider thecomplexity of life and the
interconnectedness of things,it's not a singular kind of
tether that connects oneparticular behavior necessarily
(12:59):
and only to that same kind ofbehavior on the other end of it,
like if I've shoved some kid myfriend when I was a child and
he fell and then I got home andgot in trouble for it, then
shoving- Would then be thereturn.
So now I must get shoved forshoving somebody, and albeit
(13:21):
sometimes that is kind of thepossibility, right.
But we do have to consider thiscomplexity of essentially what
is a kind of a spider web or anet that if you tug at it on one
side of a net, so many parts ofthe net move along with it to
(13:47):
varying degrees, right.
So you could, let's say, if youhad that magic kind of trick
not magic trick per se, but withthat set table and the
tablecloth, and how swiftly youcould kind of swipe the
tablecloth and not knock overall the things, if you kind of
yank on it, chances are somethings will just be shifted,
(14:11):
some things maybe will not beshifted and some things will
fall over, you know, if youhaven't completely kind of
swiped it off the table.
So this is a, I think, a goodway to consider karma and and
that kind of connection.
It's not necessarily you getshoved for shoving, you get
pushed for pushing.
Underlying that linear kind ofthing of you get shoved for
(14:39):
shoving, it's the resultingsuffering, right, or benefit,
but so the flavor, if you will,of suffering in a sense it's.
(15:02):
you know, let's say, sufferingis bitter, and so various
degrees of bitterness areavailable, generally speaking.
Well, let's let's say it inthis example that all suffering
is bitter to varying degrees,and it doesn't have to be a
bitter melon, it could be abitter strawberry, it could be a
bitter, whatever rightitter isthe point, not the exact thing
(15:27):
that is there, it's thebitterness of it.
So not necessarily shoving, youknow, shoving, shoving eye for
an eye kind of thing, but youknow, I mean eye for a kidney
also works.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's like there could be a bitter fruit
that is your return, but thecontainer in which it travels to
you could be different.
Like there could be a bitterfruit that is your return, but
the container in which ittravels to you could be
different.
It could be on a plate, itcould be in a box, it could be
on a giant leaf.
Yeah, all of that can vary yeah, it doesn't have to be exactly.
Then I think, when you, when wethink linear, we get trapped
(16:00):
into this sense of, uh, logicalreasoning, sure, right, and some
of these things when they enterthe sphere of the unknown and
the mystery realm, logic justdoesn't apply there in that
realm, right?
So we can give some examplesand things like that of, and
there is a portion actuallywhere there's the immediate
return right, immediate returnright, where that might be able
(16:27):
to give people a directunderstanding of almost like the
physics behind, you know,actions and the return or cause
and effect.
But that's just, you know, oneleaf in a forest of
possibilities, right?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
so yeah, so so the idea, the idea of karma, we
could say, is sort of seed,because it's related to yin-gua
or yin-gua-eng-bo Yin-gua, yinis the seed, gua is the fruition
of it, right, eng-bo are likethe conditions, so usually
(16:58):
translated as causes andconditions type of thing which
expands on this linear kind ofsingular tether.
And also this is a veryimportant thing to mention that
it is largely due to that lineartethering of cause and effect,
(17:26):
in the way, like you said, thatwe logically expect it to be,
that people find the let's callit, the believing in karma
challenging, right, because ifthere is such a you know, almost
nearly a physical, tangibletheater, right, and it says well
, look at that person, you knowthat person's a bully, look at
(17:50):
that person, that person'sabusive, that person's doing
this thing, but they've goneaway with it.
And where's the terror?
Where's the karma?
Where's the cause and effect?
Where are all these things?
They're there.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
People ask that question oftentimes when they
see these types of situations.
Where's the justice Right?
And they get lost sometimes,and people sometimes feel a
sense of misery, a sense ofbeing betrayed, because you know
the action hasn't arrived yetto that person and we have to
consider that what they'relooking for is not justice.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
What they're looking for is not justice.
What they're looking forfrequently is revenge in some
expression of it, and also whatthey're looking for is justice
as they see, just as they wouldlike to see the thing done.
Which is kind of like oh, youchop off a thief's hand for
(18:45):
stealing, kind of thing rightyou use the hands to steal, so
chop it.
And and this is where we getinto well, he used the mind to
steal and the hand was innocentyou know, the hand just followed
the orders of the mind rightand the hand is just meat and
nerves and muscles so and andthen, and then what you, you
(19:06):
know it's, it's punishment, uh,and revenge versus education,
and and you know we could godown the rabbit hole because you
know there's, there's, there'slayers and layers and severities
of transgressions of one managainst another, and all that
(19:27):
kind of thing makes then us,sort of puts us in the position
of being the judge, and hardlyis, you know, is it our work and
(19:53):
our job to be the judge ofthings.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Well, one can argue then at that moment.
Well, there would be a naturalflow, like of karmic events,
that would occur, let's say, ifa person did steal something,
and that is like a, let's saythere's a ripple effect no
different than if you throw arock into a lake.
That happens all of itself.
But when the person now entersinto, let's say, that system,
(20:19):
the order of the system, andimposes a judgment, now you've
created some karma there toothat you're going to be
responsible for being judgmentaland and yeah, yeah it's, you
know it's I could, versus kindof accepting and and
understanding the law ofinguambo, cause and effect, and
allowing it to come to fruition.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
It's it's a whole different.
It does.
It's a whole different.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Now we're now we're entering into into a whole other
thing, which is which is partof it, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I mean, we meander right because what?
What then?
Creating of the judgmentalmindset?
Yeah, you know that, that, thatfunny joke of some people are
judgmental.
Some people are so judgmental Icould just tell by looking at
(21:11):
them, right, you know holierthan thou that kind of thing.
So, to circle back to it, so wehave the action of mind, body
and speech.
We're called their karma.
Then we have the action of mind, body and speech.
We're called that karma.
Then we have the collection ofsaid, the stackpiling of those
things.
Then we have to consider therather complex system, the net
(21:39):
of intertwined, interwovenstrings and tatters and lines
and things of that naturepsychological, physiological.
All of that makes it a rathercomplex network which, like we
said, tends to make itchallenging for people to accept
that justice.
In a sense it's served.
(22:02):
And, yeah, because we have thisconcept of the eye for an eye.
So, unless an eye is taken outfor an eye, then it doesn't
count.
But, like I said, how about akidney for an eye, or a spleen
for an eye, or a heart for aneye, or whatever for an eye?
You know it could get all kindsof the there's a value.
(22:30):
So another way to think of itis we could.
We could think of a currency,right?
A x amount of lira, an x amountof rupees equates to x amount
of dollars, to x amount ofshillings, whatever it is it.
There's a exchange rate, butunderlying it there's a value,
(22:54):
and the value gives youpurchasing power, but it's
expressed in a different,different currency, in a sense.
And so just because you'veshoved your best friend at a
childhood who has fallen, andthen went home and got a
whooping and yelling andcouldn't play for a week because
(23:14):
we ruined the sunday best,doesn't mean that now the
repercussions of it has to beverbatim in your life, right?
It doesn't have to be the sameexact thing.
Are the instances where it isabsolutely?
I mean, if you punch somebody,they're likely to punch you.
Are they going to punch you inthe same place, in your face?
(23:35):
Are they going to punch yourface?
They might kick you, they mightelbow you, they might knee you,
they might, you know, take abar stool across your head or or
see that you love your car and,instead of hitting you back,
key your cars or blow out the
Speaker 1 (23:49):
windows whatever, yeah so it's.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
It's there's a transfer of energy there and,
and you know also, that kind ofenergy is neither created or
destroyed nor destroyed, it justchanges form.
It's kind of applicable to thiskarmic thing.
So it's it's not necessarily Ifor an eye right, so necessarily
I for an I.
(24:13):
So hopefully that makes senseRight Now.
Not only is it not necessarilyI for an I, but then what we
also have is the time, theseason of sprouting.
You think of it as the seasonof sprouting.
You think of it as the seasonof sprouting.
Not all seeds planted in yourgarden sprout at the same time.
(24:39):
Tomatoes and your cucumbers andyour cherry, your whatever,
your arugula, they all havetheir own time of sprouting,
depending on their sort of DNAmakeup, if you will.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
I just told a patient yesterday about this.
He's kind of caught up in thiscycle where he feels a little
down in the press because hehasn't come into his own
fruition based on his efforts athis job.
He hasn't received thepromotion that he wishes to
receive.
And I told him some people aretomatoes, some people are apples
(25:17):
.
Some people come into their ownand receive the rewards for
their actions in 90 days, liketomatoes, right, they come
fairly quick and what appletrees takes about five years.
Not everything has the samereturn rate right.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And then we have that other complexity of each
individual person's uniqueness,and so a tomato is not a tomato,
tomato tomato is not this.
You could, we could, you and Icould go to the store, buy the
same tomato plant and we couldgo home into our individual
gardens and plant it.
(25:54):
And then we'd check in.
It's like, oh, I'm gettingtomatoes, and the other was like
I'm not Because why?
I mean?
It's the same plant.
So that is to say we could saysame action, same seed, right of
the same variety, sameeverything.
I mean we could live, you couldplant those, even in your own
(26:14):
gardens.
You could plant those.
You know, if you plant it 12feet apart, it's going to
potentially make a differencebecause if your ph of the soil,
you know, to the right of yourplot, you know, and you planted
something else, that otherplants, that an altered the ph
and and the, the nutrientcontent of the soil, and then 12
(26:38):
feet to the left, you'replanting the same tomato.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
They might very well grow different rates, at
different speeds, flourish ornot flourish so ultimately right
, it's like what are thosespecific conditions when you
have a question?
We're giving a general overcastright of the, the way you know
karma or opchang is can work insomebody's life, right, but for
the specifics, right, you haveto know exactly.
(27:01):
You know it's like oh, how longwill this tomato plant take to
grow, right, well, what kind of?
What kind of soil, what kind ofsun, how frequently do you
water it?
Right that that's so specific.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, is your house blocking the sun?
Yeah, is your house blockingthe sun?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Before that we can say yeah in general, on average,
but for the actual qinon ortrue experience, you have to be
there and experience it for whatit is.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
And that's the yin guo, yin guo.
Yin guo means seed and thefruition of the seed, yin bo are
the surrounding conditions inwhich this is happening.
So it's tomato plant or tomatoseed.
It's going to fruit a tomato.
(27:50):
But depending on now the call,the other surrounding causes and
conditions whether you knownumerous, numerous, right, then
those two situations are goingto vary, and there's you know,
do you want to go through this?
Yeah, we'll go we'll go throughthem to, to, to give a little
bit more of a idea.
(28:12):
Now there's that famous storyof a monk seeking to reach a
temple and has been walking forhowever many days you know, not
con, not, it's just, you knowit's a long journey and he
finally sees the, the kind ofend of the journey sort of
(28:32):
coming.
And as he's walking he sees afarmer and he asks the farmer
how long to such and such temple?
And the farmer looks up andsays walk.
And the monk's like no, I'masking how long to the such and
such temple Walk, walk.
No, I'm asking how long to thesuch and such temple Walk.
(28:54):
How long to the such and suchtemple, walk Right.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
And so he gets upset, starts walking and the farmer
looks up and is like 40 minutes,Right, Right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Because how long that's?
Speaker 3 (29:11):
the same thing.
That's your clients, right?
What's your race?
We say that all the time.
Thing that's your clients.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Right, we said all the time yeah, how long till I
get well, at what pace?
Yeah, how fast are you walking?
Are you planning a break?
Are you doing this?
Are you doing that?
You know it's, it's going tovary.
So how long to the temple isgoing to depend on the various
causes and conditions.
Now, having said that, so wehave wow, this is very organized
(29:38):
.
Today we have the action,that's the karma.
We have the container of theaction we call.
We've established that thoseare sometimes used independently
or, I'm sorry, interchangeablySometimes.
What we mean is you have badkarma.
We mean, generally speaking,what that means is you've
(29:59):
collected how, what's, whatstockpile do you have?
And then right, and then wehave to, kind of, I, I believe
it was, um, I don't know, was ital capone?
There was a, one of the famous,uh, mobsters that was finally
(30:23):
imprisoned and and even hisprison cell, I think, was like
bellagio style.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
He had a couches and a tv and whatever, when
everybody else's was, you know,barren cells and and yeah, yeah,
yeah right, there was a moviewhich was based on a true story
I forget if it was good fathersor one of those mobster things
and yeah they were living it upin prison.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
They had everything they needed right and and
penthouse suite in there, yeah,and, and I think that you know
he, he was finally busted for Idon't know he, you know, shot
dead.
I don't know, tommy and uh, Ithink it was like the first
night or I.
I don't recall the details ofthe story.
(31:06):
I you know that I I franklydon't care about details of
stories, largely right, just thepoint is the point?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Good points or bad points?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I use language the way that was quoted in Humpty
Dumpty, that I use words forthem to mean what I mean.
Them to mean, or something likethat yes, yes, yes and anyway.
So come nightfall, the guardshear this guttural, feared
screams.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
I believe that was alcohol Howling right.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
And they're like what in the world is going on.
They get to the cell and hesays Tommy, it's Tommy, it's
Tommy.
So he was essentially haunted by, whether in kind of
supernatural haunting ways orpsychological haunting ways or
schizophrenia or, uh, you know,dementia, I don't care what he
(31:57):
was tormented, but but you know,when we look at it from outside
, we could say, you know, hekind of got away with it even,
even while in jail, his while injail, he's, you know.
(32:19):
And then we could say, well,he's having a glimpse of what
his future is like.
Yes, future meaning after thislife, the next future, and we've
talked about reincarnation and,and we have to remember that
this, the storage, the stockpilecontainer of our karma, is akin
(32:42):
to the black box on theairplane.
The airplane goes down, crashesinto bits and smithereens.
You take the black box, youinstall it in another airplane.
Now that airplane has that same, it's the same.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Every single thing that the airplane did is stored
there.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Or like the content of your computer.
You change the computer but youwant your stuff in it or your
phone, like I want my contactswhen I change a phone.
I need my contacts changed in myapps and all of that how
interesting, how interestingthat this is what the technology
is kind of coming out.
I mean it's out but you knowit's developing in that
(33:26):
direction of what, from the Zenperspective, already is.
It's just a material, physical,technological manifestation of
that which is already existing,and the idea there is that
(33:47):
nothing, in a sense, is invented, it's just rediscovered, it's
already existing.
So this idea of cloud and we'vetalked about the ariashic, you
know, and the consciousness, thestorehouse consciousness, and
that kind of thing, so yeah,lifetime to lifetime.
Now for a nice and tidy episode,as this has been.
(34:13):
There are four, as you saidright.
So we've established in-gwa isthe cause and effect or the seed
and fruition, un-bo are theconditions that surround it.
We have chonin chon gwa choninum gwa hyonin.
(34:35):
Hyon gwa, hyonin um gwa.
I love these yes so um and sortof yin, yang kind of thing.
Think of it, yin yang and yinyang or um yang.
Think of that then as a table.
What's on the table, what'sunder the table?
(34:58):
That's a good image.
So yin and yang, what is underthe table?
That is visible.
You can see what's on top.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Underneath, you cannot see.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yes, visible by everybody.
Underneath is as if it wereanother realm, kind of the
hidden side, the dark side, thenight side, the unknown kind of
thing.
So we have the top of the tableon the table, under the table,
and this is how we further canunderstand the complexity and
why.
It's sometimes a trap to thinkof karma and it's kind of
(35:33):
fruition as this eye for an eye.
And if it's not eye for an eye,ha see, there's no karma.
Because on the table cause Onthe table result.
On the table cause Under thetable result.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Right, let me just give you two.
I just thought of imagine awhole dinner set up right, and I
and I knock down your drink andthen you go and everyone sees
that that's sitting at the tableright and then you go and grab
the person next to his drink andyou throw it at my face.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Everybody sees it's all in all, in the public or in
the known, it's all obvious.
Everyone saw that.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
I knocked down your drink and everyone saw that you
threw the drink back at me.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Very good.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Another one is I knocked down your drink.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Everyone saw that then you kicked me under the
table and I kicked you under thetable.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Nobody could see that your shin knows you're in pain.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Exactly, that's perfect, right.
So there's the seen or visibleand the cause visible and the
result is visible.
Like you said, I knock over youthing.
It's sort of tit for tat, eyefor an eye, we could even say.
Then there's the visible cause,invisible result.
(36:49):
So people see that I've knockedover your thing, People don't
see that I've kicked you in theshin and again.
So now, if we leave it at that,consider the countless
(37:13):
perspectives that people thenhave on it.
Oh, he did so, he did, Ispilled your thing, you threw
water, that okay.
And people will say that isjustice, Kind of you know.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Because they saw.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
They see, they were exposed to their eyes and they
were able to connect the dots.
Yes, so justice has beenreenacted right and so that may
be satisfactory to people.
It's like, okay, well, you didthat and now you did that and
everybody could go home andsleep.
Well, Now we do that water inthe face, you know, boot to shin
(37:50):
, that is unseen, and then thatcould leave people at the table
going oh, no, justice has beenserved.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
That's almost then, like Al Capone being in like a
penthouse suite in the prisonRight and people can't see his
experience the torment.
He was in the hell.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Didn't sleep howling Right.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah, so we have that .
So the boot to shin.
Unknown is the result of thecause known.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I gotcha so option two Three Option three Shen, I
(38:46):
mean boot to.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Shen, I throw the water in your face.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
I think this is a common one, one because then
what does the crowd say or howdo they react at that moment?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
I've attacked, I've attacked you.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
They don't know where this came from, because the
cause is hidden.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Right.
So they think like this guyjust rudely threw water in the
other person's face unjustly,without any sort of causality,
seemingly right.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
I think this one is is the hardest one for some
people to comprehend.
That maybe this ties into thisidea of like my cause, and this
might be a little bit of atangent.
We don't have to go there, butI just want to highlight here I
did something in my past life.
Today I received the effect andit comes out of nowhere and
people oftentimes ask my God,why is this happening to me now?
(39:36):
Because you cannot see thecause that was hidden.
But we know from the law ofkarma that there was a cause.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
We know from the law of the universe that there's a
cause.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
You said the same thing.
You just got to observe theworld and the universe, and you
could see that principle at playthere.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And so what is the warping element is our ego.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Because another thing too, the ego, can come into
play and then harbor not harborhinder you from working past
that moment and finding a way torelease yourself from that
karma.
This might answer some of theother people's questions,
because the ego at that momentfeels, maybe angry why did this
(40:24):
happen to me personally?
guilty, like some, guilty,shameful uh feeling, feeling uh
persecuted like someone,something is punishing me, and
all of those hinder your abilityto have the perspective or the
view of wisdom to be able towork through this situation in a
(40:45):
healthy manner that can freeyourself, unbind you from,
because oftentimes, what do wedo?
We put back into the system thesame thing that was done onto
me.
You don't like it, but then wenow have to relive that once
again, over and over again.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
But again, that might be no, it's absolutely so, and
and and it's that idea of of Iam innocent, that is kind of as
a backdrop of that I am innocent, why I was just sitting here.
Nothing happened.
This is people watching that,this thing unfolding.
You know, I put to shin you,you wanted to face me, and and
(41:23):
one of us is viewed by the groupas as the attacker and and
without a cause and without acause right, and the other is
viewed as a victim.
And now, if you have a, if thisis a kind of on one's personal
level, the ego is going toalways gravitate towards I am
(41:43):
innocent, you know, because evenif I've done it in anger, even
if I've done a thing in anger,then the ego will then search
out for justifications for myanger.
And so this is I am simplyrebalancing the scales.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
I think a good way to handle that.
I'm gonna take a situation thatI witnessed with Unsanim, our
teacher, and Bokchon, one of hisstudents, where he asked a
question somewhere along thelines like how could, uh, this
accident, let's say, happen toyou when you do so much
meditation, so much keto, somuch prayer?
(42:20):
And his answer to me isbrilliant and genius and says at
one time you know, today I havelight, today I have wisdom, but
at one time I was mumian, and Ithink that goes for everyone
across the board.
At one time in the way past Iwas ignorant, I didn't know
better, but I still have to if Idid something with those terms.
(42:53):
It frees you from becomingangry, feeling persecuted,
feeling like, oh, but I'minnocent, why is this happening
to me?
All those unhealthy states ofthinking and all those unhealthy
emotional reactions that willnot free you or unbind you from
the karmic consequences.
It will just further enhanceand amplify whatever is
(43:16):
tormenting you today.
I like that response well,absolutely, I mean.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
And then so we have that kind of causality is
unknown and the result is known.
Right, so we're still, we, oh,I think.
I think we still have everybodyhopefully on board.
It's like all right, you dosomething, it's above the table,
action and reaction.
Above the table, action, underthe table reaction, under the
(43:42):
table action, above the tablereaction.
And we only have onecombination left I kick you in
the shin.
This is the sibling thing,right I?
kick you in the shin, you kickme in the shin, because mom and
dad, if they see us punchingeach other and kicking each
other, we'll both be in trouble.
Sorry, I kick you, you kick me,I kick you, you kick me, I kick
Nobody at the table knows.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
But they turn around and the parents look and
everyone's folding their hands.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Very pious, nobody did anything Bleeding from the
shins, and so, in those cases,it's the action, as we said, is
hidden, and then the result, thereaction to, is hidden, that is
to say, that is to say, a thiefwho steals from an empty house
(44:54):
under the cover of the dark getsaway.
Now, if we take into accountthe way that each individual
person's already pre-existingkarma collection in that karma
jar, right, what kind of afertilizer they have for the
(45:15):
seeds of the growth of theiractions.
So again, now we have anotherlayer.
So it could be very complicatedand very thing.
The main point is we cannottrace directly one thing to
another.
What we can, however, do ishave this attitude, which is
(45:35):
very challenging for people,granted, is that whatever
befalls me is mine, and it's notsort of woe is mine, because if
I have something nice happen tome, it too is mine.
(45:57):
So celebration, isn't, you know, also like you could enjoy it.
It's not like, oh, it's.
And also, nor is it allpredetermination, because now
that's a whole other element.
It's like, well, then, ifeverything we've done it's a
cause and effect, then we haveno choice.
Then that's not the case.
That's a potential, anothertopic of that free will business
(46:18):
.
But so again, we could considerit's if it's I for an eye or I
for shin right right, or I forkidney right.
So it's not only in the waythat we suffer, even when we
(46:39):
think of the physical sufferingand things, of the karmic
terrors, albeit so complicated,and they do not mean that the
person is bad, they do not meanthat the person was bad right,
because then we say well, I dida bedside visit to a gentleman
(47:01):
once who asked why me?
He was riddled with brain tumorsriddled, and so this was
hospice situation.
Riddled with brain tumorsriddled, and so this was hospice
(47:21):
situation.
But he exercised, he ate right,he ran 5Ks, numerous 5Ks.
So you know, it's a sort of Idid all the things right, why me
?
Kind of situation.
It's an oversimplification ofthe complexity of life, because
(47:43):
someone could, you know, I meanthere are cancer doctors who
will say one person could smoketheir whole life and they'll be
fine, and the other person hasnever, smoked and they have lung
cancer, you know.
So those kinds of things.
It's and and this isn't to saynow, and and I want to really
stress this to our audiencewho's listening If you have lung
(48:07):
cancer, do not even begin tooccupy your mind with I must
have done something bad, I, whatdid I do?
And that's not what this is.
The point of the point of it is, everything has a sort of cause
and effect and in that web ofthe cause and effect, in, in
(48:31):
this very moment, my karma inthe pure meaning of the word,
namely that my action isaffecting that storage container
of my priorly collected,stockpiled karma.
Now to circle back to thequestions that that keep on
(48:57):
coming back, namely how do we solet's go with the can we pay
back our, uh, karmic debt?
No, it's not.
It's not a matter of payback,because payback, then what do
you return to?
What state of your bank accountdo you return to when you've
(49:18):
paid back?
It's there, we did it.
It's there, it's stored.
Now, think of it more in termsof scales.
You know that kind of typicalhow much heavy karma negative,
how much good karma negative youhave.
So what all what we are in inought to attempt is to create
(49:43):
more of the positive thing,create, create more good karma
and not concern ourselves witherasing bad karma.
Storage house is a storehouse.
It stores everything.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Ariyashic consciousness stores all of our
actions, as we've mentionedbefore, good and bad If I can
maybe highlight this with just apractical example, and it's not
exactly the way it works, butit kind of gives the point.
If you had just a largecontainer and in that container
you had the option of collectingone of two things One is
(50:17):
seashells, which are verybeautiful and you may like them
and they're pretty, or the otherone are rocks and, playing into
the probability game, it's likedepending on how much you've
collected.
Let's say you've collectedthree rocks to every seashell.
If you think about it, ifthat's been what you've been
doing throughout your lifetime,if you close your eyes and stuck
your hand into that container,what might you be more likely to
(50:40):
pull out?
A heavy rock or a beautifulseashell?
If you notice that every timeyou put your hand in there you
have this heavy rock and youdon't like that.
Well, you can't dump all therocks.
What can you do?
Well, add more seashells andthen, maybe a year or two, we
don't know, whenever you stickyour hand in there, what do you
pull out?
A nice, beautiful seashell.
So it's on a practical sense,like you're saying, in that
(51:03):
scale, once you grow in wisdomand you understand these laws,
these uh concepts that we'reexplaining here.
Well, what can you do to betteryour situation if you just feel
like everything that comes toyou is against you or isn't what
you wish for, or you're workingso hard and you're not getting
(51:25):
what you want?
Speaker 2 (51:27):
so now to to piggyback on that.
What we then have is thequestion can we know our karma?
And so that question stilllives in that perspective on
karma, as in what the questionasks is can we know the
container op chang, not op, butop chang?
(51:47):
Can we know the container opchang, not op but op chang?
Can we know the storehouse ofour karma?
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Yes, forget about it, forget about it.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Yeah, forget about it .
What is a more necessary thingto do is, as you are acting out
your life, wakefulness and wetalk about it ad nauseum.
Right, Wakefulness is your keyhere.
That is to say, when I beginsaying something, when I begin
(52:21):
doing something, when I beginthinking something, those mind,
body and speech karmas, right,when I begin, I have to
recognize how much of a habitenergy is involved in that,
because those rocks that you'vementioned create a sort of
habituation, A magnetic pulltowards it.
(52:41):
So we have a habitual way ofliving on a physical level.
I mean, if you eat your lunchat a certain time, you don't
ever have to think about lunch.
Your stomach juices and yourbile excretion is going to kind
of burn your stomach to saywe're expecting food because you
know if you go to sleep atcertain time, you're likely to
(53:04):
be sleepy, so there's a habitualenergy.
We could say that as part ofthis whole karmic network.
This is also true emotionally,which is why emotional
intelligence is such a criticalthing that we're trying to
develop, right?
If you 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, howmany abusive relationships do
(53:24):
you have to go through torealize I keep getting myself
into these relationships, whichthen I end up being hurt by.
So how late in the game do Iwake up to it, right?
Or can I recognize the patternpattern?
(53:51):
Can I recognize the habitualkind of proclivity towards being
drawn to a certain person, acertain type of personality,
whatever, and so in that stateof wakefulness is where the
interruption in the karmichabitual energies happens.
And this is how we address thepast karma, not because we can't
go into the past and doanything there, right, so to
(54:13):
sort of.
And then there's this otherunderstanding or this kind of
flight of fancy to say thisthing happened to me, and this
usually is connected to thatlinear, very simplistic
perspective.
I was in a car accident, or Iwas coming to the temple and
(54:34):
somebody was rushing and shovedme and I fell.
And then we have a memory oh,little Johnny, when I was a kid
I remember I pushed him.
Ah, this is kind of the phantomof little Johnny, kind of
reenacting his karmic sentenceupon me.
Speaker 3 (54:54):
Forget it those connections, forget it Right
Drawing.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Those connections have no value for when it comes
to bettering or improving yourlife, right, and we have so many
stories that are kind ofsimplistically like that, right,
but we have to remember that isnot the only expression of it.
That happens.
And when we fall victim to thisthinking that it must be kind
(55:19):
of verbatim, then we misssomething else, because then we
find in other circumstances thisis well, I've never pushed
anybody into the puddle of mud,so I was kind of faultless in
being pushed or shoved.
But we said the currenciesexchange at various different
(55:41):
levels.
Speaker 3 (55:43):
And all that does is just create a ripple of doubt in
your heart, and that's going tomake you not believe in
whatever system you'repracticing whatever you thought
was happening, or you'reengaging into better your life.
You're gonna suddenly ejectyourself out of that all because
it didn't make logical sense toyou at that very moment.
You couldn't connect the dots.
(56:03):
Yeah, that's, that's some asangright there to asangang ego
that's some very strong ego, andit is.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
That's the thing.
Frequently, what we get withthese kind of perspectives is a
fanciful reorganization of themundane, less fancy flavor of
(56:33):
suffering.
Suffering on account of somespiritual principle is no
different than suffering onaccount of some very kind of
materialistic, you know, grossprinciple of suffering, if you,
you know this, ideas that areintertwined into spirituality
(56:57):
and religions, and those thingsare not outside and not
available to getting mixed intothe gears, the great gears that
make us suffer on a day-to-daybasis.
So now I've learned about karma.
(57:19):
For what purpose?
For what reason?
What are you to do with theinformation that we just spent,
you know, however, many 50minutes, probably talking about
Right?
So it's not to plunge a persondeeper into suffering.
It's not to cause, you know now, some depressive state of, oh,
this is my life and these arethe situations, and so I must
(57:43):
have been a horrible person inmy past life.
And, and you know, consider ifyou have a glimpse of your past
life and it's like ah, I was.
You know, cleopatra, I wasclear, everybody that has a
glimpse everybody's a cleopatraI was a woman stealing in the
(58:05):
supermarket Sprite.
For what?
Why, what?
What does that mean to me today?
You know so.
Speaker 3 (58:15):
I really love your point of wakefulness.
I think that's a verysignificant and an important
skill I think our audienceshould try to cultivate.
Of course, puglia, buddhismteaches that through the
practice of meditation and, andyou've given an example in past
podcasts that I think is alsorelatively a good point here.
It's the one from theDhammapada, where a village that
(58:37):
is sleeping when the tsunamicomes in at night is just
everything is washed away, swept.
So I guess just to make twodifferent points there, one if
you wake up in the middle ofthat and you aren't sleeping
right, you're wakeful, you cando so you can not swim, you can
survive but even better, whichis, I think, the goal that we
work towards is, let's say, likethe fire tower or the
(58:58):
mountaintop effect, where yousee it from a high, from a high
point and then you can see itmuch, much earlier, before the
tsunami gets there, and thenthere you can plan, you can take
out the things that you value,you can rescue other people, so
forth and so on.
So yeah, the wakefulness point,though, I think is important, is
waking up and being able tothat's where life happens, tied
(59:19):
in the flow of your life right.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
So no matter what the karma element of our past,
karma is, no matter what the youknow, and so we didn't even get
into the sort of karmaproducing fortune, because
that's really the kind of causeand effect.
But you know, it's good enough,I think.
I think it's good enough.
Speaker 3 (59:43):
And Pulio does have another remedy for this, and
it's boshi.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
And that's something I think we have to also address
in future episodes too.
Speaker 2 (59:53):
Absolutely.
I mean, the temple is a groundfor people to cultivate
generosity.
Speaker 3 (59:57):
The Buddha, after his enlightenment, what did he have
his disciples do?
Because he felt verycompassionate towards the people
in the villages who were verypoor.
Right, he had them go out andbeg, beg, yeah To help them.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Seven houses on each trip, right, don't discriminate
between the houses a shack or amansion or whatever, who people
give what they can give.
And I like the I frequently,when I speak on this idea of the
begging bowl, I like to saythat it's full to the brim with
(01:00:34):
fortune and it's thatdisplacement thing you know,
kind of eureka.
It's like how you know you getin a bathtub and what amount of
water spills out, and so that'sthe thing.
But it's opportunity for, yes,creating karma kind of snowing
over the.
Let's call it the bad karma tocover up the bad karma with good
(01:01:00):
karma.
That's the or tip the scales ifyou wanna go with that.
Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
And you could really turn that between the exchange
of all the different typesclothing Boshi different.
Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I mean, that could be a whole episode, right there,
yeah, on generosity and the 12or so various divisions of it.
Absolutely, it is important tounderstand that only in the
state of wakefulness and theself-awareness that we could
(01:01:35):
alter karma.
Sitting and dwelling on it,sitting, and even, frankly,
sitting and pondering it is fornothing, because the pondering
of it is either pondering thingsof the past, you know, and it's
Wake up to your life in thehere and now.
(01:02:00):
When you are awake, like yousaid, you could catch the thief,
and the thief here being ourkarmic, habituated mode of
operation that perpetuates acertain way and it plunges us
again and again and again,repeatedly, into the same set of
(01:02:22):
causes and conditions.
Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
And the person who is mindless and not aware
continuously responds to thatsame situation that triggered an
emotional or a behavioralresponse, thinking this is the
way I must be or this is the wayI must act.
When the wool is pulled overyour eyes and you're not wakeful
(01:02:54):
and you cannot see the causesand conditions or what your
karmic and that could beemotional, mental or speech
habits that you've formed andcreated throughout your life,
you're just responding andthinking well, this is what I
know, this is how I must act.
And then the return is justlike a merry-go-round or Ferris
(01:03:17):
wheel, with someone going aroundthere with their hands sticking
out, just slapping you in theface, and then you slap them
back and then the hand comesaround again, slap them back and
then the hand comes aroundagain, and you have no idea why
this is occurring, becauseyou're not aware of where in
this continuum you can interrupt.
We want to interrupt it andthen start a new flow going into
(01:03:40):
a positive, hopeful direction,so that your life can be better
and improve.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yes, sir, I am Milan Salim.
Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Until next time take care of yourselves and each
other.
I'm Dr Ruben Lambert, from myheart to yours.
Subscribe and like, and if youlike what you hear, please,
please, please, tell somebodyabout it.
Don't keep this a secret.
Don't keep it under the table.
Bring it to the top soeverybody can see how good it is
(01:04:16):
.
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