July 4, 2025 • 61 mins
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What does true freedom really mean? In our milestone 20th episode, we unpack this deceptively complex question, revealing how our understanding of freedom often remains superficial until we achieve liberation from our own mental habits and patterns.
Freedom isn't simply doing whatever we want. From a Zen perspective, genuine freedom only emerges when we break free from the prison of our own thoughts—the rigid mental frameworks that filter every experience through our preexisting beliefs. As we demonstrate through candid conversation, most of us live in a state of mental captivity without even realizing it, mistaking our conditioned responses for independent thought.
We explore the fascinating concept of "Mupung Pado" (no wind but waves)—how our minds generate turbulence even in the absence of external stimuli. During meditation, when external inputs are minimized, unwelcome thoughts still intrude, proving we're not as free as we believe. Our reactions to life's circumstances often happen automatically, with little awareness of the complex causes and conditions that led to them.
Through relatable examples like household conflicts over cup placement and personal stories of monastic training, we illuminate a profound truth: freedom comes from acknowledging multiple perspectives beyond our own. When we cling to a single truth—our truth—we remain imprisoned by our expectations, disappointments, and emotional reactions. True liberation emerges when we develop the wisdom to move fluidly between different dimensions of understanding.
As we celebrate our 20th episode and over 1,000 downloads, we invite you to join us in this exploration of what it means to be truly free. Listen closely, and you might discover the subtle ways your mind has been creating its own captivity—and how the path to liberation begins with awareness itself. Share this episode with someone who might benefit from seeing their mental prisons in a new light.
Dr. Ruben Lambert can be found at wisdomspring.com
Ven. MyongAhn Sunim can be found at soshimsa.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello, my name is Jane and I'm a member of the
Soshimsa Zen Center.
If you haven't heard, one ofthe many benefits of our Zen
Center is a weekly podcastentitled the World Through Zen
Eyes.
You can find it on theSoshimsaorg website Just click
on the podcast's page.
(00:35):
It's a conversation between ourabbot, the Venerable Myung An
Sonam, and Dr Ruben Lambert, aBuddhist monk.
The subjects of theirconversation vary from week to
week and are often suggested bylisteners.
Our hosts discuss lifequestions and concerns within
(00:57):
the timeless wisdom of theBuddha.
Their discussions are friendlyand informal.
Their discussions are friendlyand informal, peppered with
humor and personal experiences.
We hope you enjoy the livelyconversation and benefit from
the wisdom of our hosts.
Don't forget to listen for thenotification on your phone
reminding you that the podcastis ready, and thank you for your
(01:22):
support.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Welcome back to another episode of the World
Through the Eyes podcast.
I'm Myung An Sunim here withI'm Dr Ruben Lambert.
Welcome back, fourth of July.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yes, independence Day , a day of freedom, right,
that's a special day becausethat's kind of like what we're
doing, right.
We're trying to help peopleliberate themselves from the
tethers that bind them to, thethings that make them suffer
Greed, anger, you know, thingsthat hold you back and keep you
in place, from being successfulin your life.
So it's kind of like symbolic.
(02:02):
I think, that we're here on the4th of July because we are
freedom fighters too.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
To a certain extent.
Well, from the pure kind of Zenperspective, we say one
shouldn't even mention the wordfreedom until one is free from
bonde, from the habitual sort offunctions of the mind, from the
worries and anxieties, all ofthose things, and until then the
(02:29):
word freedom really is rathersuperficial.
We don't know what that means,and we don't know what that
means truly until a certainlevel of meditative absorption.
Actually, it's not even theChosun Samme, not even the first
(02:49):
Samme, so it is.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I guess right now we just get snapshots of that no.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Not even Nothing.
We get nothing, we get nothing.
The idea of freedom that thatwe have within our lives is
because, you know, then I guessthe question must be asked
freedom from what?
Well, right, and so freedom inits sort of pure word meaning
(03:30):
it's to be free within a dome, adomicile Right, a kingdom or
some kind of a dome, so there'sa set of boundaries within which
we could act sort of freely.
So it's not otherwise, it wouldjust be anarchy, right.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And some free domes.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, we are free.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
But you're within the sphere of a certain set of
rules and regulations that weagreed upon.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, but as far as psychologically speaking freedom
, the idea of freedom is, wetruly have no idea of the
meaning of the word.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I guess it ties into khajum khaanyum right.
It ties into our karma episodesand things of that nature right
.
What are the things that feedour consciousness?
Right you have that example.
I think I don't know if it'sdifferent streams flowing into a
greater ocean or differentwires and things like that like
all feeding one Right, and we'renot even aware of where those
(04:33):
streams came from.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
No, no, and we're so much at the mercy of see what we
think.
We think.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Wow, that was we think, we think.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I feel like that was like those infinity mirrors, one
layer building upon anotherlayer, just it's more like the
carnival mirrors the ones thatwarp and bend and yes, our, you
think you're seeing a reflection, but what you don't see is that
(05:13):
the mirrors at this time wasworked right.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, that's why we think, we think.
But you, I mean, to what degreedo we suffer confirmation bias?
To what degree are we drivenunconsciously by the mechanisms
of our habit or karma, etc.
(05:36):
Etc.
You know, we think.
Oh, I had a thought.
If we trace the building blocksof the thought, it's just
cobbled together from theexperience, and a very limited
(05:58):
experience of a person, no one.
I mean the proclivity of themind to skew towards that which
we know, because otherwise itcan't skew towards something we
don't know.
So it skews only towardssomething that we know.
So it's just.
And then, if you've consideredthe incoming new information,
whatever that information may be, it passes through a filtration
(06:22):
system of, like you said,kojong kwanyeom, our fixed,
preconceived notions, et cetera,et cetera, and it ends up being
just do I agree or disagree?
And do I agree?
Equates to does it match myalready established viewpoint,
my already established paradigm,my already established paradigm
(06:44):
, my already establishedidentity, my already established
self-identity.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
You know, that point you're making feels to me like
it's almost the heart of allconflict in life, because when
you're having a conversation,are you truly having a
conversation or discussion?
Are you trying to mold thatperson into matching what you're
already thinking?
You know very well we've talkedabout this that some people ask
questions they don't reallywant answers.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
They just want you to Right.
They either come back withquestions sort of challenge
questions or they just wantconfirmation.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
They want you to confirm what they're already
thinking or believing right youto confirm what they're already
thinking or believing right.
And also, when you walk outinto the world, how many things
don't match what you wish for atthis very moment, and I think
that's the seed of whatComplaining, complaining.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
That's why freedom, when freedom is a real thing
that one has, there's nocomplaining.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Right, I guess we can use that Altair as a measure of
how far along you've traveled,right?
Did a complaint arise in yourmind about something?
Well then, you still got morework to do.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
There's no complaining, there's no anger to
do.
There's no complaining, there'sno anger Because they are all
just.
It isn't how I want it to be.
So we're bound somehow.
And not only are we bound, butwe then are forced to have an
(08:21):
emotional response to a thing,or a violent response to a thing
, or what have you so we are, ora violent response to a thing,
or what have you?
So we are, to a large degree, apuppet, you're just pulled.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
In my mind, like this metaphor rose, like this image
of someone you know you can walk, let's say, to the park, or you
could be pulled violently into,let's say, a workout gym and
you don't want to be thereworking out, right.
So in one, you're going towardsit with happiness, acceptance,
(08:56):
complacency, and the other oneit's against your will and once
you arrive in that newdestination, all that's going to
come is just aggressionfollowing that, because you're
in a situation you don't want tobe in.
But, like you're saying, likeour thoughts come and we don't,
we're not really fully aware ofthe course or the the course
that it took to get there.
So we just react without evenknowing wow, that's.
(09:21):
I mean, I'm sorry, that's I.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I mean, I hope everyone can just sit with that
for a moment.
See, the react element too hasso many levels.
I mean, when you say react, Isuspect the listener I'm
thinking lightning flash.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
A to B.
And then here you are.
It's like being dropped intothe middle of a movie or
something like.
You have no idea how you gotthere right.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
like yeah, and I think that the experience of
that reaction right is issufficiently loud enough that a
person has an iota ofself-awareness, right.
They could note that this iswhy I really overreacted.
Usually it's in think about itright.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
So an even more profound point go ahead, because
people say right, like, oh man,I overreacted, right.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So there's like there's the reacted, and then
the overreacted is usuallywhat's commented on.
I think you're overreacting onthis, right.
So there's a somewhere, there's, there's a level of acted.
I mean reacted, that is okay, Iguess Right.
And then there's theoverreacted.
That means you're reacting, buttoo much, right, but we're
(10:33):
talking about more subtle things.
So overreacted is a very bigkind of explosion, like you said
.
Or a lightning flash that drawsattention.
It's oh wow, right, kind ofexplosion, like you said.
Or a lightning flash that drawsattention, it's oh wow.
But then we have reacted, whichis simply one could say well,
it's just a response to the lifearound us.
I mean, we react to the world.
(10:55):
But that could go deeper anddeeper, and deeper and deeper,
because a reaction is a responseto a stimuli of some sort,
right, and so we most likelythink of reacting to a thing
(11:20):
I've seen or heard.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
You know or felt you know something you didn't like.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yes, you know, so you throw up.
Yeah, so they're.
They're externally bound, butand and so the with this
definition of freedom, it's samething like, well, am I
externally bound?
Right, if I'm, if I'm inshackles, then I haven't the
freedom.
But there is, and this is wheremeditation practice makes us
(11:52):
befriend our own mind, or atleast visit our own mind,
because you could be sittingthere.
And so we have the sayingMupung Pado, which means no wind
but waves.
So if we are participatingactively in the world and doing
(12:13):
things, the winds of the worldare obvious to us for the most
part I see, hear, smell, taste,touch, and those things make me
feel, etc.
Etc.
But then consider a meditatingperson sitting perhaps with the
lights off and maybe not evenincense burning to stimulate the
(12:35):
reaction of the you knowolfactory, the olfactory bulbs,
the olfactory bulbs.
You know we're not listening to, you know to music, a Tibetan
flute, or whatever you have.
So in a sense, to a large degree, let's assume that a person
(12:56):
could sit for one hour withoutfeeling physical discomfort.
So from the moment you sit downto the moment that you begin to
feel physical discomfort, thereisn't a wind, and yet one is
(13:16):
besieged by thought, anunwelcome thought.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Unwelcome thoughts.
An unwelcome thought.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Unwelcome thoughts, unwanted thought.
Because I'm going to sit downand I tell to myself I'm going
to sit down and I'm going tofocus my mind on an object of
meditation, whatever that objectmay be, and everything to
myself.
I'm going to sit down and let'ssay, focus on breath or focus
(13:43):
on counting or mantra orwhatever it may be.
So let's say I'm meditating onthe breath.
So I sit down, I say to myselfI'm going to meditate on the
breath and that's it.
Good luck, if one is free thenone is free to make that
decision, and that be it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
But I want to.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
That's what I'm doing actively.
This is my decision.
I'm going to focus on thebreath.
Oh, but did I turn off thelights when I left the other
room?
You didn't order that thought,you didn't welcome that thought.
That thought is an intrusivethought.
Crash the party Right.
(14:34):
Frequently, we think ofintrusive thoughts as maybe
perhaps some kind of a dark kindof thing, but in its more
subtle stages.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
It doesn't have to even necessarily be dark, right?
If you are leaving to work andyou have important things to do
there and you have this thoughtlingering that I turn off the
stove.
That thing, You're splintered.
Yeah, your mind is not at easeat all.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You're captive of what Actual damage didn't occur
yet.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Right, it's not like someone got hurt or there was an
explosion or anything like that.
No, it's just a right, so thesubtlety of it is missed.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
It's missed it's.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I guess it's almost like it's also not a one man
band.
It's not a one man show.
Right, you sit down and you'relike I want to now focus on my
breathing.
And then somebody stands up andsays I disagree.
Who's that?
Your nose, what's?
going on, it's itching like now,at a time like this.
Now you want to tell me thatyou're itching, and then, you
(15:38):
know, ankle says oh god, you'releaning on me right now.
It's been so long, gosh, canyou just move that there?
And then, plus a barrage ofpast memories and thoughts and
ideas.
Well, and that's the thing,you're not alone at the party,
right?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, if we start throwing, people throwing
participants out of the party.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
You weren't invited.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, I'm able to sit , so Enko doesn't complain.
I don't have incense oranything, so there's no smell.
All of those things are.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I have thrown out all of those we can say this is the
just breathe party.
I mean, you need the justbreathe invitation and if you
don't have it sorry, you got togo there, you go, right.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Right.
So why is last week'sinteraction with my neighbor all
of a sudden kicking the doorsin and storming in and helping
itself?
How about me?
Right, right and helping itselfto my plate?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Oh, it's a Even for your dish.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
So that's not freedom , no, but actually I mean, this
is a good topic we could go withit.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah Well, I actually wanted you to comment, Hold
that thought on the subtlenuances too, that on the way to
this ultimate freedom, thesubtle nuances that meditation
can afford you, Because Iremember last week when someone
was talking or was it two weeksago about the subtle changes
that occur with the feeling ofanger.
You were talking aboutoverreaction and what people
(17:07):
notice.
Yes, people feel the emotion ofanger, but what people are not
in tune with are the nuancesright.
Were there hormonal changes?
Were there weather changes andthings of that sort?
And that kind of just speaks towhat you were saying earlier.
Right Is that people don't havefreedom, they're not even aware
of how they got there, becausewe're not in tune with those
(17:30):
processes, and I thinkmeditation is a tool that allows
you to be more wakeful.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And on one level.
That's what I mean.
That we're dragged, you'redragged, yeah, we're dragged by
so many various sort of forcesand we rarely consider more than
one.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
That's another thing, right.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Because usually we look for justification of an
experience the justification ofthe experience if it were a
negative experience, usuallylooking for a place to extend
our blame onto.
So usually somebody else,something right that can link to
(18:24):
the overreaction, right andRight that can link to the
overreaction right.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Someone you know, my spouse put the cup, didn't put
the cup in the sink, andnormally it bothers you, but
today you screamed and yelled athim or her.
That would be like theoverreaction.
And then what do we normally do?
We blame the cup not being inthe sink.
But then, linking to what I, Ithink you're about to expound,
is we're not a we, we have ourhabitual reasoning for what is
(18:53):
the cause and we miss.
Well, did that day you wake upand your hormones were different
?
Did that day you wake up andsome weather change, barometer
pressure or something had animpact on your circulation,
whatever it might be?
The energy flow, the key energyand things like that, those,
those things change day to day,moment to moment.
(19:14):
Right, and we're not in tunewith that.
Yet we still here's, kodim kwanyom, our habitual way of
thinking blame that one thing,that sole thing, and miss the
whole thing Because our sensesare externally facing and we are
informed by their presence andwe rely on it as one ought to.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I'm afraid what happens when we talk of things
like this, that some people thenjump to saying Anytime a point
is being made, it doesn'tdeprive of the other end of the
(20:10):
thing.
We're really trying tohighlight the whole spectrum of
human experience.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Right.
I think people love to putthings into extreme categories
and they have a hard time.
We say this too all the timeputting two opposing points in
balance or in harmony with oneanother right, and so they
assume, if you're talking aboutthe shortcomings of your
external senses and the partthat people miss, that it means
just throw it away.
Yeah, You're not saying that.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
No, no, we're not.
The point being is that we are,like I said, our senses are
externally facing and, as such,this is how we are informed.
There's a reason and a purposefor that.
There's a reason, purpose, etc.
Right, but that renders us sortof an automatic setting.
(21:00):
And you know, if you considerthe Buddhist training, and one
of the first things,xin-nyom-cho is this body, xin
is a body, nyom is likeawareness, cho is a place.
That's, if you translateverbatim, like the words
(21:21):
themselves.
That's what they mean andessentially what it means is
bring the attention to yourself.
And of course, again, itdoesn't mean that you should now
have self-deprecating thing andI'm stupid because I did this
and you know that's not it.
(21:42):
The idea, however, is thatperhaps, instead of only looking
for the why in the outsideworld because that's the first
place to go with sensoryexperience one also must
(22:02):
consider the inner world of mind, making my mind, making a thing
.
Is it really, is it really sucha big deal that the couple I'm,
now this is there's going to be, there's going to be rocks
thrown at any moment now that Isay this?
(22:23):
But is it really that the cupshouldn't, that the cup wasn't
put in the sink or whatever.
That's a touchy subject.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
It is a touchy subject.
I'm touching touchy subjectSinks can cause World War III in
households, Sinks anddishwashers absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
But that's the thing.
So you know, hold on, hold on,Put down the pitchforks and the
torches, because I'm not doneyet.
Is it the end of the world thatthe cup hasn't been put into
the sink or a dishwasher?
No, it's not.
Is it going to be the end ofthe world if you put the cup in
(23:05):
the dishwasher?
No, it's not Right.
So I'm not saying peoplerequesting the other person to
put the dishes where the dish issupposed to go, why not?
We can ask the other side whynot put the dishes where they're
at?
Because a person is so tied upin their own-ness.
(23:28):
There's their ego-ness, theirselfishness essentially is what
it is, and the idea ofconsideration is usually, or
frequently or at times.
I don't want to offend anyone,but the idea of consideration is
something that perhaps comes asa second, third, fourth, fifth
(23:53):
and tenth thought.
Yes, In the ordering of things.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
For the one person getting angry.
It's first in line.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Right, and for the other person it's seventh in
line, and.
And for the other person it'sseventh in line.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
And that one is hidden.
That's why there's so muchmisunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
That's why this, the story, the biblical story of the
Tower of Babel, is absolutelycorrect.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
That's how they start talking.
Kids babble Well, and that'sthe thing, correct.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
That's how they start talking Kids babble.
When they Kids babble, right,well, and that's the thing.
But do kids babble?
No, they're talking, they'retalking.
Yeah, right, and this is again.
We are horrible atcommunication.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Because the person that's mad.
Here's what they're thinking.
That's the 900th, 999th timeI've had to tell you to put the
cup in the sink.
Right, right, another personwait.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So I have a question perhaps to this hypothetical
person, right?
Yeah, so in 999 times?
That's like an embassy in theworld, because they carry that
thought in their mind at thatmoment, but yeah so two, two
points one if, if you and you onyour way to tell the other
person that the the one time,the 999, so now the thousandth
(25:14):
time your trip fell, hit yourhead and forgotten like 999
times of their transgressionsbam enlightenment you're free.
Transgressions, you're free.
You're free of that.
On the other hand, right and andI'm just playing to a certain
degree- devil's advocate but sothe for the person who told the
(25:37):
other person 999 times to not dosomething, and they continue
doing it.
How do you see, then, thatperson's persistence Right?
I mean, on one hand, the otherperson was told 999 times to put
(26:03):
the cup in the sink let's sayand they still didn't learn
right so they're not a very goodstudent.
on the other hand, the personhas told the other person 999
times and seeing that a lot ofperson hasn't learned, that
person is not really a goodstudent, because didn't you
(26:25):
learn a lesson that you toldthem 999 times?
And they still didn't do it.
On what account and what logicdoes one then think this time is
going to work?
They will now know they haven'tlearned in 999 times.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
What makes you think.
What makes you think?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
what makes you think that it's going to work this
time?
It's an expectation, theexpectation that they will, the
expectations that they're goingto learn and jump into
conclusion.
They're just a dummy right, orthey're selfish, or what have
you and that kind of thing goesboth ways, and so what we get is
(27:08):
fights and arguments on accountof um.
Well, to swing it back tofreedom, the freedom for one
person, the freedom to um not beso perhaps preoccupied with
their own thing and note thathow important, or it's not even
(27:31):
importance, how much helpful sobodhisattvahood, how much
helpful I could be to this otherperson if I just put this cup
where it goes or where it'seasier for them to, if they're
doing the washing up and allthat.
And then, on the other hand,right, the freedom for the other
(27:51):
person to um either reorganizeor or, or at least in some grace
and mercy, understand that theother person, for whatever
reason, is just somehow, maybegenetically, maybe just unable
(28:11):
to put the cup in the sink.
Right, because then both peopleare imprisoned and neither one
of them is free.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Right, so freedom forget about it, forget about it
.
Do the the work you were sayingbut no, I was saying like um, in
that moment I was thinking.
Some people think to themselves.
Let's say, the person that'sangry at the person who didn't
put that cup into the sink uh,it's true though they would.
(28:42):
They'll argue me and say it'strue.
I've told them 9999 times andfor that person I think it's
just because it's true.
It means that that means thatsome thought or idea that you
should continue to carry.
Maybe we should ask you tothink well, it might be true,
but is it helpful?
Is that idea of the past andthat record that you've kept
(29:05):
it's 9,000.
Was it helpful?
And here's the story that I wasthinking about, because not
everything that's true ishelpful.
While it might be true, itmight not be helpful.
Remember when we went hikingmany, many moons ago and there
were the Spanish mother and thetwo daughters and it was the
first time they went hiking.
This was in Elizabeth.
Okay, yes, and then you did apack check before we left, thank
(29:30):
goodness, because they werebringing these huge rocks.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Rocks yes, To hammer down the.
What is that called the tentstakes?
Yes.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
So that's a situation where it might be true that a
rock is very efficient, but itsure as hell ain't damn helpful
when you're going on a hike.
Yeah Right, so that's what youdid for them.
You're like, okay, let that goIn the same manner.
Sometimes I think we got to dolike an emotional pack check and
(30:00):
you can't just hold on.
Yeah, it might be true, youmight, but, man, sometimes you
got to let go of things that arejust not helpful for you.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Well now let's consider this right.
Let's imagine that the pack isa mind or a head, you know
metaphorically Well, the head isalmost like a little sack.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
right, it's a sack.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
So you're hiking pack .
We're all going hiking everyday carrying this backpack, this
neck pack, this sack, thiscontainer, and when making the
decision to bring a rock, put arock in there.
Is it true?
(30:37):
Yes, is the truth that stakesneed nailing in?
Yes, and what if it's rockythings?
So maybe they had an experiencelast time and they tried to do
it and it didn't work et cetera,et cetera, et cetera et cetera.
All of those things can be trueNow.
A person ought to look for moretruths than just their own
(31:04):
individual truth.
That is to say, it is also truethat the likelihood of wherever
we're going to pitch a tent,there's going to be a rock
available within.
You know, eyesight, eye shot,it's going to.
So it's true, you needsomething to nail the stakes,
(31:27):
it's true.
Iraq will do, it's true, youcould bring it with you.
But it is also true, and thistruth now is outside, and the
truth of another is true, andthis is this is why.
This is why when we, when wespeak to someone and they report
on whatever experience of lifethat they may have, when we
(31:51):
measure against only our truth,we deny the other person their
truth and vice versa, right.
And so the idea is, whenlistening to a person and
recount an experience, of coursewe have to think, yes, it is
true, because it is true, it istheir experience, true to them,
(32:15):
right, and it is true.
Therefore, true to them is true, right, true to me.
That truth is not true to me,but true to me is also true,
right, true to me.
That truth is not true to me,but true to me, is it also true?
That's why this whole idea ofthis one kind of a finite truth
thing is another fallacy.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Yeah, people can't make that.
Yeah, so to negate then theindividual.
This is going to get into.
What was one else thing, theessence and the Taeyong.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, maybe that should be a whole other category
.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
But yeah, if you negate people's individual
experiences, I think the initialresponse is just conflict to
what we've been talking about.
Right, you're just completelynegating Because it's ego.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Mine is more true than yours, right I think,
george carlin has that, that, uh, that bit about people and
their things right.
I love his act right my stuffis stuff, your stuff is junk,
yeah, he says another word but,we're PG, so my stuff is stuff
(33:27):
your stuff is crap and you knowwe have storage facilities for
my crap, because my crap is somuch important.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
It points to some industry.
The whole industry is revolvingaround people's crap.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
People's stuff your crap my stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Right your crap my stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, and this is how that works.
So to mention, the word freedomin this context is we haven't
the freedom.
We haven't the freedom so longas we have that organization of
thought and that mine is thetruth or mine.
(34:07):
You know, I've asked you 999times to do the thing.
I have the freedom to movethrough my day or move through
my life without being sort sortof punished by my refusal to
accept some reality, which isthat that person, even though
(34:30):
they were told 999 times, stilldoesn't get it Right.
They just may be missing thatpart of the brain, you know.
And so we have that.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Because what is the person who is, let's say,
knee-deep or entrenched in asang, or governed or controlled by
ego and lacks insight orawareness?
What are the things thatthey're noticing?
Only Only the very, very loudthings, right?
(35:05):
They're not privy to thesubtleties of life.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Well, they would argue it's not loud.
See, a person might notverbalize it exactly, so they
might not say, oh, it's not loud, it's what's important, and my
stuff is stuff and your stuff iscrap.
So what is?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
important to me.
It's like a spotlight on thestage you have the option of.
This is what you're noticing,because I've deemed this person
or this event or this situationto be the main character.
So now, spotlight right on that.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
This is what's important to me, what's
important is what I declare isimportant.
What is important is what isimportant to me.
This is the function of the ego.
Ah-sang, ah-sang is ego, but ahmeans me, or I or self.
Sang is an image.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
An image.
An image, yeah.
So that's where the troublelies, is the image is something
that was created.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Right, so like a self-view.
And then when it doesn't match,Right, it's a self-view, it's a
self-image.
And it's not only that it's aself-image, it's self-image that
is sort of adhered to and andand kind of really at.
There's a rigor mortisattachment to it, right?
so what you get is a c of a youknow of a fortune 500 company
(36:37):
who struts his stuff in a sensebecause he he, there's a
position which he serves and and, but then that image of self
that let's say it's needed forthe, for the situation I work,
you know you're, you're in aboard meeting, you have to
present, you have to radiate acertain you know authority vibe,
(37:03):
right, but then you can't gohome and radiate authority vibe
to your family because you'renot a CEO of your family.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Right Demanding people to see you that way.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I'm the CEO Now you have to.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
That reminds me of the story I'm going to put you
into it.
When you, early on, firstordained and you became a Sunim
and you wanted the Sangha, themembers of the community, to put
you into it.
When you, early on, firstordained and you became a Sunim
and you wanted the Sangha, themembers of the community, to
call you Sunim and you go to ourteacher Onsanim, and you say
Onsanim.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Wait, hold on.
Okay, wait, Let me tell thestory.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Go ahead, let me tell the story Because I'm afraid I
took a lesson from that too.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
It's big.
I took a lesson from that too.
It's big.
It's a fantastic lesson.
We were still in Korea.
All right, there you go, we'rein Korea, and the days leading
up to my ordination are comingup.
Yeah, and I think we had justgone to the tailor to get a set
(38:03):
of robes made, so perhaps I wasfreshly.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Fresh robes.
You got the fresh linens there.
You're looking sharper.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And so I went into Insanim's room and we were in a
hotel and he's sitting in achair and I sat down on the
floor.
Mind you the imagery of this.
This is like the old way youlearn at the feet of the floor.
Mind you the imagery of this.
This is like the old way youlearn at the feet of the guru.
And so I sat there and I sayInsanium, when we go back to the
(38:33):
United States, nobody knowssinium, really what sinium means
.
They know reverent whatever,but nobody knows what sinium
means.
And they know reverent whatever, but nobody knows what sinyam
means.
So I think we need to sort ofteach people the meaning of
sinyam.
So when we go back, maybe.
(38:54):
And I think I said like are yougonna call me sinyam Right?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Which is which is, and then I think you're also,
you wanted it, because youwanted everyone to call you
Sunim Right.
So by, by example, the parallelpoint right.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, so by example.
And so I'm saying he says, yeah, you want people to call you
Sunim.
I said, you know, for thepurpose of education.
Yes, you want people to callyou Sunim?
Yes, then do Sunim things.
I.
You want people to call youSunim?
Yes, then do Sunim things.
I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I've never forgotten.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
You're looking for this.
Like you know, the clouds departand the light to come down and
I just love how the Zen mastercan just cut right to the point
and touch exactly what you needat that moment to grow.
But real quick, before you goon.
But then I at that time I thinkit was 2008, I think 2009 I
(39:47):
graduated with my doctorate inpsychology and I took that
lesson and I transformed it intoa mantra in my own head.
If I want people to call medoctor, do doctor things right,
the same thing right.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, because that's the thing.
It's the titles themselvesright.
The same thing right.
Yeah, because that's the thing.
The titles themselves right Arean advertisement.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
But it's not asang imposing to what we're talking
about too.
It's not the asang imposing onothers to do or act a certain
way because of my title.
It's the hashim humble approach.
First you do.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Sinim, it's sort of we sometimes translate as
venerable, right?
So it's like oh, essentially,you want people to venerate you
or you want people to you knowhonorable or respectable.
You want people to see you asrespectable to respectable
things.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
If you do crook things, people are going to see
you as a crook, because you docrook things Right.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
If you do X, y and Z things, the people are going to
see you for that thing.
I mean, unless you want toperpetuate again some kind of a,
you know, clouding theirperception with falsehoods and
pulling wool over their eyes, etcetera, et cetera.
So if you want people to seeyou as you want them to see, you
(41:12):
do the things for people to, sopeople are informed by your
action, not by you saying ah,you call me this and it was so
brilliant.
I mean yes.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That was brilliant.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
That was a brilliant moment, do sunim's?
Um, there are absolutelymoments like this that just are
like splinters in the mind andand they're, they're so
impactful and so you neverforget those things.
Hopefully not because has.
Because Hashem right, thehumility right, it is working
(41:46):
against, because consider whenin our lives do we and this is
true for anybody when in ourlives do we, do we learn some
(42:09):
philosophical lessons perhaps of, let's say, humility?
You know you really ought to behumble and respectful of others
, etc.
Etc.
You know, and this is differentthan graveling before other
people, but since we're on thesubject of how minds tend to
respond, if you say humble,sometimes what people hear it as
(42:31):
you are to gravel beforesomeone.
So what it seems to suggest isa undermining of self-worth, or
my confidence worth or my, youknow, my confidence, confidence
and humility are not in conflictto one another.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
So this idea, yeah, I usually tell people like that
could be a whole other episodetoo.
Right, because we have to makea clear distinction between
gravelling and Hashem.
All right, and we have peoplethat we encounter that act like
they're so humble, but really,behind the curtain, it's like
their head eats up all theoxygen in the room.
So I guess it's sometimes.
(43:13):
Is it a gold-plated effect or amask effect?
On the outside they appear thatway.
Are they rock solid?
Just the same thing with titles.
Do you live the title?
Do you, did you earn the title,or do you just want people to
call you that without doing anyof the work associated with it,
(43:33):
right?
So yeah, you put you know.
Sunim robes on a scarecrowstill a scarecrow, right?
Speaker 2 (43:42):
There's a cartoon, I think it's Osam.
Oh right, there's a Koreancartoon yeah, of a brother and
sister, I believe, that areorphaned and I think she's blind
(44:03):
, and they go to a temple orsomething to that effect and the
young boy is rather mischievousand one of the monks at the
temple is looking for his set ofrobes and he can't find them.
And he's kind of searching forit and sees there's a deer
(44:23):
wearing the robes and he can'tfind them.
And he's kind of searching forit and sees there's a deer
wearing the robes.
You know so the little boy haddone and put the robes on a deer
kind of thing, and this is akinto it's a cute image, but it's
akin to what?
Speaker 3 (44:40):
we're talking about right you know what deer now,
what they can.
Yeah, it's akin to what we'retalking about, right?
You know what deer now?
Speaker 2 (44:45):
what they can.
Yeah, it is.
I think I said one time saidsomething I think we were
talking about Peng Nym Sa Templeand he said it's like putting
pearls on a pig.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Right, and that was kind of the same adjacent at
least idea.
But when speaking of freedom,on one hand, we have to
understand the meaning of theword in context of society, that
(45:29):
it isn't just mayhem andanarchy and I'm free to do
whatever in the world I pleaseand choose to do.
That is anarchy.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
It's a violation of human rights.
That's the end of that road,yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Right, yeah, that is.
It's a violation of humanrights.
That's the end of that road.
Yeah, right, and.
And so the idea of freedom isthat we are free to operate
within some confined, reallyactually, of some rules, and,
and it's not confines are not isnot the right word.
Maybe what we are free to do isoperate within a set of rules
(46:04):
that we have agreed upon,because it is a game.
It is a game, right, and eachcountry has its own set of rules
, and each dimension of life andeach worldly dimension and the
(46:27):
spiritual dimensions have theirown sort of rules that govern
those realms of existence.
And so we've agreed uponsomething, whether consciously
or unconsciously, but we have torecognize this, something,
whether consciously orunconsciously, but we have to
(46:48):
recognize this.
We agreed on the universalagreement, or at least here,
that a red light means that youstop driving and a green light
means that you go or or keepdriving and there's no promise
that we all make.
Right and there's no supermagnetic force and shield that's
going to stop your car Right.
(47:09):
And we stop the car on the redlight because we have agreed
that then allows the otherperson to go.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
And that creates mutual safety, that's a freedom.
It's a freedom for all totravel.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
It's a freedom for you to not have right, to not
die unnecessarily.
It's a freedom for you to notbe constantly besieged by fear
as you're driving that at anypoint in time you know it's just
this lawless wild west of anintersection and if you make it,
you know you call your spouseon the phone who's like honey,
I'm going to an intersection IfI make it through you know let's
have lunch.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Check if my will is still active, because this one
is a roll of the dice.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, so that would be a hellish existence.
So there's a freedom within anagreed, collectively agreed upon
thing thing.
Now, collectively agreed uponis, in our current climate, is a
very different can take on avery different thing because my
(48:13):
cats can't seem to agree uponsome many of the points but but
then?
Speaker 3 (48:19):
but then we have that .
What is a group of banditspoint that you can make for the
if they get stuck on that right?
Or you know, and Sanam gave usa metaphor one time I think we
might have been hiking, or maybeat Bangnam Sa, and he said look
at the trees, right?
So two trees were growingtowards each other and occupying
(48:41):
what looked like they weretrying to occupy the same space,
but one tree doesn't overtakethe other tree, they literally
merge and then shoot upwardlyside by side.
And that was a beautifulimagery for how to almost
cohabitate or occupy the samespace without one overtaking the
other one, one empowering,over-empowering the other one,
(49:05):
imposing on the other.
They knew their limits, knewtheir boundaries, and both were
able to rise up and get the sunthat they were looking for.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Well, sometimes, sometimes, the big ones steal
the sun and murder off the smallthings where the vine?
Wraps around and chokes thelight out of.
So there is a but see, that isalso now we're talking about.
There's a natural set of rulesand regulations, right, and then
(49:36):
there's the man-made, and if weso, we could look for certain
inspirations and certainexpressions of nature to apply
to our human society and then,on the other hand, try not to be
like some of the things.
(49:56):
So we have the intellect thatmakes us, gives us the ability
to pick and choose, right.
So it's like if you're hungry,you just don't eat the gazelle,
right?
But then also a lion that'sfull, the gazelle will come over
and step on its tail and thelion will just, you know, kind
of whimper maybe, and won't killthe thing because it stepped on
(50:17):
its tail.
But then you have octopus thatbend together with fish so they
scare things out and the fish.
So there's like an interactionbetween octopus and fish, right.
But from time to time, forseemingly no reason scientists
still don't know why the octopuswill just punch the fish, boom,
(50:40):
right.
Whether it's to assert its,this dominance, right, because
there's the situation doesn'tcall for it.
Like it's not like the.
Okay, we're working as a team.
I'm gonna stick my you knowtentacle into this, into this
hole, and then, whatever comesout, you get to eat your things
and I get to eat my things andlet's say, the fish started
(51:01):
eating everything off and theoctopus like, ah, excuse me,
this was a partnership, right?
so it doesn't seem to be thatright.
So it's almost like, maybe justlike dominance, or who knows
what.
The octopus thinking just, youknow, check, jab, you know, um.
So we have, we have that, uh,pliability, and this is again,
(51:25):
we have to acknowledge andhighlight the fact that we have
just that ourselves, and and torise above and to transcend
(51:46):
certain animalistic behavior,certain, you know, and that's
the thing.
So we have an ego, it does thethings that it does, and we
practice and train ourselves tounderstand what it is, what it
does, how it does it, when doesit what.
And then, because we are humanbeings, we have the ability to
(52:07):
say I'm not gonna, or I'm gonna,or I'm gonna sort of highlight
or develop this one part and I'mgonna, you know, kind of stop
feeding this other part of of,whether it's personality, quirks
or idiosyncrasies, or the waythat I am, or what have you.
So we are really a fantasticcreature, but there's a need for
(52:31):
understanding, et cetera, etcetera.
And so we went from thesocietal to the humanistic, and
then now, if we highlight thespiritualistic, if you will,
until we can recognize, realize,until some level of spiritual
(52:58):
development, the very tender andprecise dense of balancing is
not available to us.
So freedom from thatperspective, from the.
I don't know.
We want to call it higher,transcendental, transcendent
(53:21):
kind of thing or more subtle,whichever way you want to look
at it, wherever you want toplace it, sublime.
So yeah, from some, from thatstandpoint, for us to speak of
freedom is, uh, not correct.
And then to for us to furtherinterpret and misinterpret
(53:44):
freedom in the context of livingin a societal structure, as I
do what I want, it is also notcorrect.
So we need, of course, asalways, wakefulness and knowing
where we are.
If one truth it's that rockthing that you brought up, if
(54:06):
it's true that rocks are usefulfor nailing spikes, but it's
also true that there are rockswhere we're going, and it is
also true, then that you don'tneed to bring a rock, and if you
continue looking at it, thereare so many truths available to
(54:28):
us, and knowing on which trutham I operating, and having that
flexibility, because if I onlysee the truth of you know I need
to nail in these spikes thenyou fail to see the truth of the
place you're going to, and sothat's the thing.
(54:49):
Freedom, in a sense, the bestthat we could kind of muster up
here is the freedom to be ableto move from one dimension to
the other and understand therules and regulations and the
laws and the functions and thewhat of that said dimension and
operate within it.
Speaker 3 (55:12):
In essence you're saying jihye or banya Jihye
wisdom yeah, develop wisdom.
I know a wisdom tradition thatyou know helps you develop.
That is the ultimate goal, yeah, but so, yes, develop
wakefulness so that you can beaware, right, if you're not
(55:34):
aware, then you cannot enact anykind of change in your life.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
And acknowledge that there are multiple truths.
And that need to be viewed andand, and that where to move from
one show to the other with anunderstanding, not with the kind
of I bring my truth into yourlife and I force feed it to you.
That's not a truth, becausethat's my truth, but it violates
(56:01):
the truth that is your truth.
And so there's some mutualunderstanding that is required,
some transformative ability, thepliability and, like I said, we
are endowed with it by naturethat we have it, but it's not
(56:22):
the only truth.
The only truth isn't that we'reflexible.
There's also the truth thatwe're very rigid.
There's also truth that we'revery fixated.
There's also truth that we'reattachment prone and desire
prone and anger prone andjealousy prone and whatever,
whatever, whatever, whatever.
All of those things are truths.
And knowing within which realmam I operating, how to navigate
(56:44):
through, all of those things aretruths, right?
And knowing within which realmam I operating, how to navigate
through?
all those things andacknowledging the other side,
and then maybe the person thatwas told 999 times realizes the
truth of the fact that thatother person who told them so
will be happier.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
Just that I have a million mothers that would be
happy if what you say becomestrue, right.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
Right.
And then the mother then, orsomebody else, being able to
acknowledge the truth of theother person, for whatever
reason, right seems to renderthem incapable of the simple,
simple, simple task.
And is it possible that the waythat the task was initially
(57:35):
presented was the lesson notsufficient for the other person
to understand?
Was it just I told you and youdo as I told you so?
Or is it sort of dominance,right and imposing of the thing?
You put that thing over there.
You hear me.
You put that thing over there.
(57:57):
You hear me.
You put that thing over there,you hear me Right.
What if it's like over there,you hear me, right.
What if it's like you'rehelping me by putting this thing
?
I know it's not a big deal, butit expresses our mutual
understanding, our love for oneanother, that you could put the
(58:18):
thing over there and that's just.
You know, sometimes a nicebouquet of flowers on a
wednesday, just out of the blue,is a nice.
Bouquet of flowers on aWednesday, just out of the blue,
is a nice thing.
But also sometimes, if that cuplands where it's supposed to go
, that's a nice thing too.
And so maybe we don't know whatwe think, you don't know what I
think.
I don't know what you think,and in acknowledgement of that,
(58:40):
the only way of communicationthat we have is external.
So it's the verbal or bodilycommunication, and by doing that
thing, it's not about the cupgoing there, it's about what
that means.
There's a symbolism toeverything in life, and if that
cup going in, where it makes mylife easier, it's a symbolism of
(59:05):
you saying you care Right, andwe can go back and forth.
So it's freedom from one's onlytruth and adherence to that
truth, regardless and despite ofwhat the other truths may be.
(59:25):
That's right.
That's the other thing.
It ain't freedom, because we'reimprisoned by our own thinking
and then our emotional statesand our psychological states are
then imposed on us, because weare not free from being
subjugated by the other person'sbehavior.
So freedom, ha Bahamba, yeah,until next time.
(59:52):
I'm Young Ansonim, take care ofyourselves and each other.
Speaker 3 (59:56):
I'm Dr Ruben Lambert, From my heart to yours.
If you like what you heard,please tell someone else about
the World Through the Nightpodcast and share all the
goodness that we are sharingwith the world with others.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Please, topics.
Give us topics.
Today, by the way, is a 20thepisode 20th episode.
so we we really neveranticipated the I was going to
say longevity of it, but it islongevity when, when initially
(01:00:35):
setting up the podcast platform,one of the things that that one
is kind of warned is to saythat most podcasts die out by
like eight episodes or 10episodes, whatever the number
was.
So we're at 20, thanks to ourlisteners, and again we're in
our little truth.
For us, 20 is a significantthing.
(01:00:57):
Also for us, the fact that wehave over 1,000 downloads that's
a fantastic thing too.
I'm sure there's podcasts thathave a thousand downloads a day.
Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
For some people we're stuff, for some people we're
junk.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
But that's their truth.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
That's their truth and this is our truth and kudos
to them.
Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
Listen, progress is progress and we're going to
celebrate these milestonesIndeed.
Hello, my name is Jane and I'm a member of the
Soshimsa Zen Center.
If you haven't heard, one ofthe many benefits of our Zen
Center is a weekly podcastentitled the World Through Zen
Eyes.
You can find it on theSoshimsaorg website Just click
on the podcast's page.
(00:35):
It's a conversation between ourabbot, the Venerable Myung An
Sonam, and Dr Ruben Lambert, aBuddhist monk.
The subjects of theirconversation vary from week to
week and are often suggested bylisteners.
Our hosts discuss lifequestions and concerns within
(00:57):
the timeless wisdom of theBuddha.
Their discussions are friendlyand informal.
Their discussions are friendlyand informal, peppered with
humor and personal experiences.
We hope you enjoy the livelyconversation and benefit from
the wisdom of our hosts.
Don't forget to listen for thenotification on your phone
reminding you that the podcastis ready, and thank you for your
(01:22):
support.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Welcome back to another episode of the World
Through the Eyes podcast.
I'm Myung An Sunim here withI'm Dr Ruben Lambert.
Welcome back, fourth of July.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yes, independence Day , a day of freedom, right,
that's a special day becausethat's kind of like what we're
doing, right.
We're trying to help peopleliberate themselves from the
tethers that bind them to, thethings that make them suffer
Greed, anger, you know, thingsthat hold you back and keep you
in place, from being successfulin your life.
So it's kind of like symbolic.
(02:02):
I think, that we're here on the4th of July because we are
freedom fighters too.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
To a certain extent.
Well, from the pure kind of Zenperspective, we say one
shouldn't even mention the wordfreedom until one is free from
bonde, from the habitual sort offunctions of the mind, from the
worries and anxieties, all ofthose things, and until then the
(02:29):
word freedom really is rathersuperficial.
We don't know what that means,and we don't know what that
means truly until a certainlevel of meditative absorption.
Actually, it's not even theChosun Samme, not even the first
(02:49):
Samme, so it is.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I guess right now we just get snapshots of that no.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Not even Nothing.
We get nothing, we get nothing.
The idea of freedom that thatwe have within our lives is
because, you know, then I guessthe question must be asked
freedom from what?
Well, right, and so freedom inits sort of pure word meaning
(03:30):
it's to be free within a dome, adomicile Right, a kingdom or
some kind of a dome, so there'sa set of boundaries within which
we could act sort of freely.
So it's not otherwise, it wouldjust be anarchy, right.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And some free domes.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, we are free.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
But you're within the sphere of a certain set of
rules and regulations that weagreed upon.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, but as far as psychologically speaking freedom
, the idea of freedom is, wetruly have no idea of the
meaning of the word.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I guess it ties into khajum khaanyum right.
It ties into our karma episodesand things of that nature right
.
What are the things that feedour consciousness?
Right you have that example.
I think I don't know if it'sdifferent streams flowing into a
greater ocean or differentwires and things like that like
all feeding one Right, and we'renot even aware of where those
(04:33):
streams came from.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
No, no, and we're so much at the mercy of see what we
think.
We think.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Wow, that was we think, we think.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I feel like that was like those infinity mirrors, one
layer building upon anotherlayer, just it's more like the
carnival mirrors the ones thatwarp and bend and yes, our, you
think you're seeing a reflection, but what you don't see is that
(05:13):
the mirrors at this time wasworked right.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, that's why we think, we think.
But you, I mean, to what degreedo we suffer confirmation bias?
To what degree are we drivenunconsciously by the mechanisms
of our habit or karma, etc.
(05:36):
Etc.
You know, we think.
Oh, I had a thought.
If we trace the building blocksof the thought, it's just
cobbled together from theexperience, and a very limited
(05:58):
experience of a person, no one.
I mean the proclivity of themind to skew towards that which
we know, because otherwise itcan't skew towards something we
don't know.
So it skews only towardssomething that we know.
So it's just.
And then, if you've consideredthe incoming new information,
whatever that information may be, it passes through a filtration
(06:22):
system of, like you said,kojong kwanyeom, our fixed,
preconceived notions, et cetera,et cetera, and it ends up being
just do I agree or disagree?
And do I agree?
Equates to does it match myalready established viewpoint,
my already established paradigm,my already established paradigm
(06:44):
, my already establishedidentity, my already established
self-identity.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
You know, that point you're making feels to me like
it's almost the heart of allconflict in life, because when
you're having a conversation,are you truly having a
conversation or discussion?
Are you trying to mold thatperson into matching what you're
already thinking?
You know very well we've talkedabout this that some people ask
questions they don't reallywant answers.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
They just want you to Right.
They either come back withquestions sort of challenge
questions or they just wantconfirmation.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
They want you to confirm what they're already
thinking or believing right youto confirm what they're already
thinking or believing right.
And also, when you walk outinto the world, how many things
don't match what you wish for atthis very moment, and I think
that's the seed of whatComplaining, complaining.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
That's why freedom, when freedom is a real thing
that one has, there's nocomplaining.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Right, I guess we can use that Altair as a measure of
how far along you've traveled,right?
Did a complaint arise in yourmind about something?
Well then, you still got morework to do.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
There's no complaining, there's no anger to
do.
There's no complaining, there'sno anger Because they are all
just.
It isn't how I want it to be.
So we're bound somehow.
And not only are we bound, butwe then are forced to have an
(08:21):
emotional response to a thing,or a violent response to a thing
, or what have you so we are, ora violent response to a thing,
or what have you?
So we are, to a large degree, apuppet, you're just pulled.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
In my mind, like this metaphor rose, like this image
of someone you know you can walk, let's say, to the park, or you
could be pulled violently into,let's say, a workout gym and
you don't want to be thereworking out, right.
So in one, you're going towardsit with happiness, acceptance,
(08:56):
complacency, and the other oneit's against your will and once
you arrive in that newdestination, all that's going to
come is just aggressionfollowing that, because you're
in a situation you don't want tobe in.
But, like you're saying, likeour thoughts come and we don't,
we're not really fully aware ofthe course or the the course
that it took to get there.
So we just react without evenknowing wow, that's.
(09:21):
I mean, I'm sorry, that's I.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I mean, I hope everyone can just sit with that
for a moment.
See, the react element too hasso many levels.
I mean, when you say react, Isuspect the listener I'm
thinking lightning flash.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
A to B.
And then here you are.
It's like being dropped intothe middle of a movie or
something like.
You have no idea how you gotthere right.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
like yeah, and I think that the experience of
that reaction right is issufficiently loud enough that a
person has an iota ofself-awareness, right.
They could note that this iswhy I really overreacted.
Usually it's in think about itright.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
So an even more profound point go ahead, because
people say right, like, oh man,I overreacted, right.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So there's like there's the reacted, and then
the overreacted is usuallywhat's commented on.
I think you're overreacting onthis, right.
So there's a somewhere, there's, there's a level of acted.
I mean reacted, that is okay, Iguess Right.
And then there's theoverreacted.
That means you're reacting, buttoo much, right, but we're
(10:33):
talking about more subtle things.
So overreacted is a very bigkind of explosion, like you said
.
Or a lightning flash that drawsattention.
It's oh wow, right, kind ofexplosion, like you said.
Or a lightning flash that drawsattention, it's oh wow.
But then we have reacted, whichis simply one could say well,
it's just a response to the lifearound us.
I mean, we react to the world.
(10:55):
But that could go deeper anddeeper, and deeper and deeper,
because a reaction is a responseto a stimuli of some sort,
right, and so we most likelythink of reacting to a thing
(11:20):
I've seen or heard.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
You know or felt you know something you didn't like.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yes, you know, so you throw up.
Yeah, so they're.
They're externally bound, butand and so the with this
definition of freedom, it's samething like, well, am I
externally bound?
Right, if I'm, if I'm inshackles, then I haven't the
freedom.
But there is, and this is wheremeditation practice makes us
(11:52):
befriend our own mind, or atleast visit our own mind,
because you could be sittingthere.
And so we have the sayingMupung Pado, which means no wind
but waves.
So if we are participatingactively in the world and doing
(12:13):
things, the winds of the worldare obvious to us for the most
part I see, hear, smell, taste,touch, and those things make me
feel, etc.
Etc.
But then consider a meditatingperson sitting perhaps with the
lights off and maybe not evenincense burning to stimulate the
(12:35):
reaction of the you knowolfactory, the olfactory bulbs,
the olfactory bulbs.
You know we're not listening to, you know to music, a Tibetan
flute, or whatever you have.
So in a sense, to a large degree, let's assume that a person
(12:56):
could sit for one hour withoutfeeling physical discomfort.
So from the moment you sit downto the moment that you begin to
feel physical discomfort, thereisn't a wind, and yet one is
(13:16):
besieged by thought, anunwelcome thought.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Unwelcome thoughts.
An unwelcome thought.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Unwelcome thoughts, unwanted thought.
Because I'm going to sit downand I tell to myself I'm going
to sit down and I'm going tofocus my mind on an object of
meditation, whatever that objectmay be, and everything to
myself.
I'm going to sit down and let'ssay, focus on breath or focus
(13:43):
on counting or mantra orwhatever it may be.
So let's say I'm meditating onthe breath.
So I sit down, I say to myselfI'm going to meditate on the
breath and that's it.
Good luck, if one is free thenone is free to make that
decision, and that be it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
But I want to.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
That's what I'm doing actively.
This is my decision.
I'm going to focus on thebreath.
Oh, but did I turn off thelights when I left the other
room?
You didn't order that thought,you didn't welcome that thought.
That thought is an intrusivethought.
Crash the party Right.
(14:34):
Frequently, we think ofintrusive thoughts as maybe
perhaps some kind of a dark kindof thing, but in its more
subtle stages.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
It doesn't have to even necessarily be dark, right?
If you are leaving to work andyou have important things to do
there and you have this thoughtlingering that I turn off the
stove.
That thing, You're splintered.
Yeah, your mind is not at easeat all.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You're captive of what Actual damage didn't occur
yet.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Right, it's not like someone got hurt or there was an
explosion or anything like that.
No, it's just a right, so thesubtlety of it is missed.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
It's missed it's.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I guess it's almost like it's also not a one man
band.
It's not a one man show.
Right, you sit down and you'relike I want to now focus on my
breathing.
And then somebody stands up andsays I disagree.
Who's that?
Your nose, what's?
going on, it's itching like now,at a time like this.
Now you want to tell me thatyou're itching, and then, you
(15:38):
know, ankle says oh god, you'releaning on me right now.
It's been so long, gosh, canyou just move that there?
And then, plus a barrage ofpast memories and thoughts and
ideas.
Well, and that's the thing,you're not alone at the party,
right?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, if we start throwing, people throwing
participants out of the party.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
You weren't invited.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, I'm able to sit , so Enko doesn't complain.
I don't have incense oranything, so there's no smell.
All of those things are.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I have thrown out all of those we can say this is the
just breathe party.
I mean, you need the justbreathe invitation and if you
don't have it sorry, you got togo there, you go, right.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Right.
So why is last week'sinteraction with my neighbor all
of a sudden kicking the doorsin and storming in and helping
itself?
How about me?
Right, right and helping itselfto my plate?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Oh, it's a Even for your dish.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
So that's not freedom , no, but actually I mean, this
is a good topic we could go withit.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah Well, I actually wanted you to comment, Hold
that thought on the subtlenuances too, that on the way to
this ultimate freedom, thesubtle nuances that meditation
can afford you, Because Iremember last week when someone
was talking or was it two weeksago about the subtle changes
that occur with the feeling ofanger.
You were talking aboutoverreaction and what people
(17:07):
notice.
Yes, people feel the emotion ofanger, but what people are not
in tune with are the nuancesright.
Were there hormonal changes?
Were there weather changes andthings of that sort?
And that kind of just speaks towhat you were saying earlier.
Right Is that people don't havefreedom, they're not even aware
of how they got there, becausewe're not in tune with those
(17:30):
processes, and I thinkmeditation is a tool that allows
you to be more wakeful.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And on one level.
That's what I mean.
That we're dragged, you'redragged, yeah, we're dragged by
so many various sort of forcesand we rarely consider more than
one.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
That's another thing, right.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Because usually we look for justification of an
experience the justification ofthe experience if it were a
negative experience, usuallylooking for a place to extend
our blame onto.
So usually somebody else,something right that can link to
(18:24):
the overreaction, right andRight that can link to the
overreaction right.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Someone you know, my spouse put the cup, didn't put
the cup in the sink, andnormally it bothers you, but
today you screamed and yelled athim or her.
That would be like theoverreaction.
And then what do we normally do?
We blame the cup not being inthe sink.
But then, linking to what I, Ithink you're about to expound,
is we're not a we, we have ourhabitual reasoning for what is
(18:53):
the cause and we miss.
Well, did that day you wake upand your hormones were different
?
Did that day you wake up andsome weather change, barometer
pressure or something had animpact on your circulation,
whatever it might be?
The energy flow, the key energyand things like that, those,
those things change day to day,moment to moment.
(19:14):
Right, and we're not in tunewith that.
Yet we still here's, kodim kwanyom, our habitual way of
thinking blame that one thing,that sole thing, and miss the
whole thing Because our sensesare externally facing and we are
informed by their presence andwe rely on it as one ought to.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I'm afraid what happens when we talk of things
like this, that some people thenjump to saying Anytime a point
is being made, it doesn'tdeprive of the other end of the
(20:10):
thing.
We're really trying tohighlight the whole spectrum of
human experience.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Right.
I think people love to putthings into extreme categories
and they have a hard time.
We say this too all the timeputting two opposing points in
balance or in harmony with oneanother right, and so they
assume, if you're talking aboutthe shortcomings of your
external senses and the partthat people miss, that it means
just throw it away.
Yeah, You're not saying that.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
No, no, we're not.
The point being is that we are,like I said, our senses are
externally facing and, as such,this is how we are informed.
There's a reason and a purposefor that.
There's a reason, purpose, etc.
Right, but that renders us sortof an automatic setting.
(21:00):
And you know, if you considerthe Buddhist training, and one
of the first things,xin-nyom-cho is this body, xin
is a body, nyom is likeawareness, cho is a place.
That's, if you translateverbatim, like the words
(21:21):
themselves.
That's what they mean andessentially what it means is
bring the attention to yourself.
And of course, again, itdoesn't mean that you should now
have self-deprecating thing andI'm stupid because I did this
and you know that's not it.
(21:42):
The idea, however, is thatperhaps, instead of only looking
for the why in the outsideworld because that's the first
place to go with sensoryexperience one also must
(22:02):
consider the inner world of mind, making my mind, making a thing
.
Is it really, is it really sucha big deal that the couple I'm,
now this is there's going to be, there's going to be rocks
thrown at any moment now that Isay this?
(22:23):
But is it really that the cupshouldn't, that the cup wasn't
put in the sink or whatever.
That's a touchy subject.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
It is a touchy subject.
I'm touching touchy subjectSinks can cause World War III in
households, Sinks anddishwashers absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
But that's the thing.
So you know, hold on, hold on,Put down the pitchforks and the
torches, because I'm not doneyet.
Is it the end of the world thatthe cup hasn't been put into
the sink or a dishwasher?
No, it's not.
Is it going to be the end ofthe world if you put the cup in
(23:05):
the dishwasher?
No, it's not Right.
So I'm not saying peoplerequesting the other person to
put the dishes where the dish issupposed to go, why not?
We can ask the other side whynot put the dishes where they're
at?
Because a person is so tied upin their own-ness.
(23:28):
There's their ego-ness, theirselfishness essentially is what
it is, and the idea ofconsideration is usually, or
frequently or at times.
I don't want to offend anyone,but the idea of consideration is
something that perhaps comes asa second, third, fourth, fifth
(23:53):
and tenth thought.
Yes, In the ordering of things.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
For the one person getting angry.
It's first in line.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Right, and for the other person it's seventh in
line, and.
And for the other person it'sseventh in line.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
And that one is hidden.
That's why there's so muchmisunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
That's why this, the story, the biblical story of the
Tower of Babel, is absolutelycorrect.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
That's how they start talking.
Kids babble Well, and that'sthe thing, correct.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
That's how they start talking Kids babble.
When they Kids babble, right,well, and that's the thing.
But do kids babble?
No, they're talking, they'retalking.
Yeah, right, and this is again.
We are horrible atcommunication.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Because the person that's mad.
Here's what they're thinking.
That's the 900th, 999th timeI've had to tell you to put the
cup in the sink.
Right, right, another personwait.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So I have a question perhaps to this hypothetical
person, right?
Yeah, so in 999 times?
That's like an embassy in theworld, because they carry that
thought in their mind at thatmoment, but yeah so two, two
points one if, if you and you onyour way to tell the other
person that the the one time,the 999, so now the thousandth
(25:14):
time your trip fell, hit yourhead and forgotten like 999
times of their transgressionsbam enlightenment you're free.
Transgressions, you're free.
You're free of that.
On the other hand, right and andI'm just playing to a certain
degree- devil's advocate but sothe for the person who told the
(25:37):
other person 999 times to not dosomething, and they continue
doing it.
How do you see, then, thatperson's persistence Right?
I mean, on one hand, the otherperson was told 999 times to put
(26:03):
the cup in the sink let's sayand they still didn't learn
right so they're not a very goodstudent.
on the other hand, the personhas told the other person 999
times and seeing that a lot ofperson hasn't learned, that
person is not really a goodstudent, because didn't you
(26:25):
learn a lesson that you toldthem 999 times?
And they still didn't do it.
On what account and what logicdoes one then think this time is
going to work?
They will now know they haven'tlearned in 999 times.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
What makes you think.
What makes you think?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
what makes you think that it's going to work this
time?
It's an expectation, theexpectation that they will, the
expectations that they're goingto learn and jump into
conclusion.
They're just a dummy right, orthey're selfish, or what have
you and that kind of thing goesboth ways, and so what we get is
(27:08):
fights and arguments on accountof um.
Well, to swing it back tofreedom, the freedom for one
person, the freedom to um not beso perhaps preoccupied with
their own thing and note thathow important, or it's not even
(27:31):
importance, how much helpful sobodhisattvahood, how much
helpful I could be to this otherperson if I just put this cup
where it goes or where it'seasier for them to, if they're
doing the washing up and allthat.
And then, on the other hand,right, the freedom for the other
(27:51):
person to um either reorganizeor or, or at least in some grace
and mercy, understand that theother person, for whatever
reason, is just somehow, maybegenetically, maybe just unable
(28:11):
to put the cup in the sink.
Right, because then both peopleare imprisoned and neither one
of them is free.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Right, so freedom forget about it, forget about it
.
Do the the work you were sayingbut no, I was saying like um, in
that moment I was thinking.
Some people think to themselves.
Let's say, the person that'sangry at the person who didn't
put that cup into the sink uh,it's true though they would.
(28:42):
They'll argue me and say it'strue.
I've told them 9999 times andfor that person I think it's
just because it's true.
It means that that means thatsome thought or idea that you
should continue to carry.
Maybe we should ask you tothink well, it might be true,
but is it helpful?
Is that idea of the past andthat record that you've kept
(29:05):
it's 9,000.
Was it helpful?
And here's the story that I wasthinking about, because not
everything that's true ishelpful.
While it might be true, itmight not be helpful.
Remember when we went hikingmany, many moons ago and there
were the Spanish mother and thetwo daughters and it was the
first time they went hiking.
This was in Elizabeth.
Okay, yes, and then you did apack check before we left, thank
(29:30):
goodness, because they werebringing these huge rocks.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Rocks yes, To hammer down the.
What is that called the tentstakes?
Yes.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
So that's a situation where it might be true that a
rock is very efficient, but itsure as hell ain't damn helpful
when you're going on a hike.
Yeah Right, so that's what youdid for them.
You're like, okay, let that goIn the same manner.
Sometimes I think we got to dolike an emotional pack check and
(30:00):
you can't just hold on.
Yeah, it might be true, youmight, but, man, sometimes you
got to let go of things that arejust not helpful for you.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Well now let's consider this right.
Let's imagine that the pack isa mind or a head, you know
metaphorically Well, the head isalmost like a little sack.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
right, it's a sack.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
So you're hiking pack .
We're all going hiking everyday carrying this backpack, this
neck pack, this sack, thiscontainer, and when making the
decision to bring a rock, put arock in there.
Is it true?
(30:37):
Yes, is the truth that stakesneed nailing in?
Yes, and what if it's rockythings?
So maybe they had an experiencelast time and they tried to do
it and it didn't work et cetera,et cetera, et cetera et cetera.
All of those things can be trueNow.
A person ought to look for moretruths than just their own
(31:04):
individual truth.
That is to say, it is also truethat the likelihood of wherever
we're going to pitch a tent,there's going to be a rock
available within.
You know, eyesight, eye shot,it's going to.
So it's true, you needsomething to nail the stakes,
(31:27):
it's true.
Iraq will do, it's true, youcould bring it with you.
But it is also true, and thistruth now is outside, and the
truth of another is true, andthis is this is why.
This is why when we, when wespeak to someone and they report
on whatever experience of lifethat they may have, when we
(31:51):
measure against only our truth,we deny the other person their
truth and vice versa, right.
And so the idea is, whenlistening to a person and
recount an experience, of coursewe have to think, yes, it is
true, because it is true, it istheir experience, true to them,
(32:15):
right, and it is true.
Therefore, true to them is true, right, true to me.
That truth is not true to me,but true to me is also true,
right, true to me.
That truth is not true to me,but true to me, is it also true?
That's why this whole idea ofthis one kind of a finite truth
thing is another fallacy.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Yeah, people can't make that.
Yeah, so to negate then theindividual.
This is going to get into.
What was one else thing, theessence and the Taeyong.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, maybe that should be a whole other category
.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
But yeah, if you negate people's individual
experiences, I think the initialresponse is just conflict to
what we've been talking about.
Right, you're just completelynegating Because it's ego.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Mine is more true than yours, right I think,
george carlin has that, that, uh, that bit about people and
their things right.
I love his act right my stuffis stuff, your stuff is junk,
yeah, he says another word but,we're PG, so my stuff is stuff
(33:27):
your stuff is crap and you knowwe have storage facilities for
my crap, because my crap is somuch important.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
It points to some industry.
The whole industry is revolvingaround people's crap.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
People's stuff your crap my stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Right your crap my stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, and this is how that works.
So to mention, the word freedomin this context is we haven't
the freedom.
We haven't the freedom so longas we have that organization of
thought and that mine is thetruth or mine.
(34:07):
You know, I've asked you 999times to do the thing.
I have the freedom to movethrough my day or move through
my life without being sort sortof punished by my refusal to
accept some reality, which isthat that person, even though
(34:30):
they were told 999 times, stilldoesn't get it Right.
They just may be missing thatpart of the brain, you know.
And so we have that.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Because what is the person who is, let's say,
knee-deep or entrenched in asang, or governed or controlled by
ego and lacks insight orawareness?
What are the things thatthey're noticing?
Only Only the very, very loudthings, right?
(35:05):
They're not privy to thesubtleties of life.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Well, they would argue it's not loud.
See, a person might notverbalize it exactly, so they
might not say, oh, it's not loud, it's what's important, and my
stuff is stuff and your stuff iscrap.
So what is?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
important to me.
It's like a spotlight on thestage you have the option of.
This is what you're noticing,because I've deemed this person
or this event or this situationto be the main character.
So now, spotlight right on that.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
This is what's important to me, what's
important is what I declare isimportant.
What is important is what isimportant to me.
This is the function of the ego.
Ah-sang, ah-sang is ego, but ahmeans me, or I or self.
Sang is an image.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
An image.
An image, yeah.
So that's where the troublelies, is the image is something
that was created.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Right, so like a self-view.
And then when it doesn't match,Right, it's a self-view, it's a
self-image.
And it's not only that it's aself-image, it's self-image that
is sort of adhered to and andand kind of really at.
There's a rigor mortisattachment to it, right?
so what you get is a c of a youknow of a fortune 500 company
(36:37):
who struts his stuff in a sensebecause he he, there's a
position which he serves and and, but then that image of self
that let's say it's needed forthe, for the situation I work,
you know you're, you're in aboard meeting, you have to
present, you have to radiate acertain you know authority vibe,
(37:03):
right, but then you can't gohome and radiate authority vibe
to your family because you'renot a CEO of your family.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Right Demanding people to see you that way.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I'm the CEO Now you have to.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
That reminds me of the story I'm going to put you
into it.
When you, early on, firstordained and you became a Sunim
and you wanted the Sangha, themembers of the community, to put
you into it.
When you, early on, firstordained and you became a Sunim
and you wanted the Sangha, themembers of the community, to
call you Sunim and you go to ourteacher Onsanim, and you say
Onsanim.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Wait, hold on.
Okay, wait, Let me tell thestory.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Go ahead, let me tell the story Because I'm afraid I
took a lesson from that too.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
It's big.
I took a lesson from that too.
It's big.
It's a fantastic lesson.
We were still in Korea.
All right, there you go, we'rein Korea, and the days leading
up to my ordination are comingup.
Yeah, and I think we had justgone to the tailor to get a set
(38:03):
of robes made, so perhaps I wasfreshly.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Fresh robes.
You got the fresh linens there.
You're looking sharper.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And so I went into Insanim's room and we were in a
hotel and he's sitting in achair and I sat down on the
floor.
Mind you the imagery of this.
This is like the old way youlearn at the feet of the floor.
Mind you the imagery of this.
This is like the old way youlearn at the feet of the guru.
And so I sat there and I sayInsanium, when we go back to the
(38:33):
United States, nobody knowssinium, really what sinium means
.
They know reverent whatever,but nobody knows what sinium
means.
And they know reverent whatever, but nobody knows what sinyam
means.
So I think we need to sort ofteach people the meaning of
sinyam.
So when we go back, maybe.
(38:54):
And I think I said like are yougonna call me sinyam Right?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Which is which is, and then I think you're also,
you wanted it, because youwanted everyone to call you
Sunim Right.
So by, by example, the parallelpoint right.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, so by example.
And so I'm saying he says, yeah, you want people to call you
Sunim.
I said, you know, for thepurpose of education.
Yes, you want people to callyou Sunim?
Yes, then do Sunim things.
I.
You want people to call youSunim?
Yes, then do Sunim things.
I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I've never forgotten.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
You're looking for this.
Like you know, the clouds departand the light to come down and
I just love how the Zen mastercan just cut right to the point
and touch exactly what you needat that moment to grow.
But real quick, before you goon.
But then I at that time I thinkit was 2008, I think 2009 I
(39:47):
graduated with my doctorate inpsychology and I took that
lesson and I transformed it intoa mantra in my own head.
If I want people to call medoctor, do doctor things right,
the same thing right.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, because that's the thing.
It's the titles themselvesright.
The same thing right.
Yeah, because that's the thing.
The titles themselves right Arean advertisement.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
But it's not asang imposing to what we're talking
about too.
It's not the asang imposing onothers to do or act a certain
way because of my title.
It's the hashim humble approach.
First you do.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Sinim, it's sort of we sometimes translate as
venerable, right?
So it's like oh, essentially,you want people to venerate you
or you want people to you knowhonorable or respectable.
You want people to see you asrespectable to respectable
things.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
If you do crook things, people are going to see
you as a crook, because you docrook things Right.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
If you do X, y and Z things, the people are going to
see you for that thing.
I mean, unless you want toperpetuate again some kind of a,
you know, clouding theirperception with falsehoods and
pulling wool over their eyes, etcetera, et cetera.
So if you want people to seeyou as you want them to see, you
(41:12):
do the things for people to, sopeople are informed by your
action, not by you saying ah,you call me this and it was so
brilliant.
I mean yes.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That was brilliant.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
That was a brilliant moment, do sunim's?
Um, there are absolutelymoments like this that just are
like splinters in the mind andand they're, they're so
impactful and so you neverforget those things.
Hopefully not because has.
Because Hashem right, thehumility right, it is working
(41:46):
against, because consider whenin our lives do we and this is
true for anybody when in ourlives do we, do we learn some
(42:09):
philosophical lessons perhaps of, let's say, humility?
You know you really ought to behumble and respectful of others
, etc.
Etc.
You know, and this is differentthan graveling before other
people, but since we're on thesubject of how minds tend to
respond, if you say humble,sometimes what people hear it as
(42:31):
you are to gravel beforesomeone.
So what it seems to suggest isa undermining of self-worth, or
my confidence worth or my, youknow, my confidence, confidence
and humility are not in conflictto one another.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
So this idea, yeah, I usually tell people like that
could be a whole other episodetoo.
Right, because we have to makea clear distinction between
gravelling and Hashem.
All right, and we have peoplethat we encounter that act like
they're so humble, but really,behind the curtain, it's like
their head eats up all theoxygen in the room.
So I guess it's sometimes.
(43:13):
Is it a gold-plated effect or amask effect?
On the outside they appear thatway.
Are they rock solid?
Just the same thing with titles.
Do you live the title?
Do you, did you earn the title,or do you just want people to
call you that without doing anyof the work associated with it,
(43:33):
right?
So yeah, you put you know.
Sunim robes on a scarecrowstill a scarecrow, right?
Speaker 2 (43:42):
There's a cartoon, I think it's Osam.
Oh right, there's a Koreancartoon yeah, of a brother and
sister, I believe, that areorphaned and I think she's blind
(44:03):
, and they go to a temple orsomething to that effect and the
young boy is rather mischievousand one of the monks at the
temple is looking for his set ofrobes and he can't find them.
And he's kind of searching forit and sees there's a deer
(44:23):
wearing the robes and he can'tfind them.
And he's kind of searching forit and sees there's a deer
wearing the robes.
You know so the little boy haddone and put the robes on a deer
kind of thing, and this is akinto it's a cute image, but it's
akin to what?
Speaker 3 (44:40):
we're talking about right you know what deer now,
what they can.
Yeah, it's akin to what we'retalking about, right?
You know what deer now?
Speaker 2 (44:45):
what they can.
Yeah, it is.
I think I said one time saidsomething I think we were
talking about Peng Nym Sa Templeand he said it's like putting
pearls on a pig.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Right, and that was kind of the same adjacent at
least idea.
But when speaking of freedom,on one hand, we have to
understand the meaning of theword in context of society, that
(45:29):
it isn't just mayhem andanarchy and I'm free to do
whatever in the world I pleaseand choose to do.
That is anarchy.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
It's a violation of human rights.
That's the end of that road,yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Right, yeah, that is.
It's a violation of humanrights.
That's the end of that road.
Yeah, right, and.
And so the idea of freedom isthat we are free to operate
within some confined, reallyactually, of some rules, and,
and it's not confines are not isnot the right word.
Maybe what we are free to do isoperate within a set of rules
(46:04):
that we have agreed upon,because it is a game.
It is a game, right, and eachcountry has its own set of rules
, and each dimension of life andeach worldly dimension and the
(46:27):
spiritual dimensions have theirown sort of rules that govern
those realms of existence.
And so we've agreed uponsomething, whether consciously
or unconsciously, but we have torecognize this, something,
whether consciously orunconsciously, but we have to
(46:48):
recognize this.
We agreed on the universalagreement, or at least here,
that a red light means that youstop driving and a green light
means that you go or or keepdriving and there's no promise
that we all make.
Right and there's no supermagnetic force and shield that's
going to stop your car Right.
(47:09):
And we stop the car on the redlight because we have agreed
that then allows the otherperson to go.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
And that creates mutual safety, that's a freedom.
It's a freedom for all totravel.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
It's a freedom for you to not have right, to not
die unnecessarily.
It's a freedom for you to notbe constantly besieged by fear
as you're driving that at anypoint in time you know it's just
this lawless wild west of anintersection and if you make it,
you know you call your spouseon the phone who's like honey,
I'm going to an intersection IfI make it through you know let's
have lunch.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Check if my will is still active, because this one
is a roll of the dice.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, so that would be a hellish existence.
So there's a freedom within anagreed, collectively agreed upon
thing thing.
Now, collectively agreed uponis, in our current climate, is a
very different can take on avery different thing because my
(48:13):
cats can't seem to agree uponsome many of the points but but
then?
Speaker 3 (48:19):
but then we have that .
What is a group of banditspoint that you can make for the
if they get stuck on that right?
Or you know, and Sanam gave usa metaphor one time I think we
might have been hiking, or maybeat Bangnam Sa, and he said look
at the trees, right?
So two trees were growingtowards each other and occupying
(48:41):
what looked like they weretrying to occupy the same space,
but one tree doesn't overtakethe other tree, they literally
merge and then shoot upwardlyside by side.
And that was a beautifulimagery for how to almost
cohabitate or occupy the samespace without one overtaking the
other one, one empowering,over-empowering the other one,
(49:05):
imposing on the other.
They knew their limits, knewtheir boundaries, and both were
able to rise up and get the sunthat they were looking for.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Well, sometimes, sometimes, the big ones steal
the sun and murder off the smallthings where the vine?
Wraps around and chokes thelight out of.
So there is a but see, that isalso now we're talking about.
There's a natural set of rulesand regulations, right, and then
(49:36):
there's the man-made, and if weso, we could look for certain
inspirations and certainexpressions of nature to apply
to our human society and then,on the other hand, try not to be
like some of the things.
(49:56):
So we have the intellect thatmakes us, gives us the ability
to pick and choose, right.
So it's like if you're hungry,you just don't eat the gazelle,
right?
But then also a lion that'sfull, the gazelle will come over
and step on its tail and thelion will just, you know, kind
of whimper maybe, and won't killthe thing because it stepped on
(50:17):
its tail.
But then you have octopus thatbend together with fish so they
scare things out and the fish.
So there's like an interactionbetween octopus and fish, right.
But from time to time, forseemingly no reason scientists
still don't know why the octopuswill just punch the fish, boom,
(50:40):
right.
Whether it's to assert its,this dominance, right, because
there's the situation doesn'tcall for it.
Like it's not like the.
Okay, we're working as a team.
I'm gonna stick my you knowtentacle into this, into this
hole, and then, whatever comesout, you get to eat your things
and I get to eat my things andlet's say, the fish started
(51:01):
eating everything off and theoctopus like, ah, excuse me,
this was a partnership, right?
so it doesn't seem to be thatright.
So it's almost like, maybe justlike dominance, or who knows
what.
The octopus thinking just, youknow, check, jab, you know, um.
So we have, we have that, uh,pliability, and this is again,
(51:25):
we have to acknowledge andhighlight the fact that we have
just that ourselves, and and torise above and to transcend
(51:46):
certain animalistic behavior,certain, you know, and that's
the thing.
So we have an ego, it does thethings that it does, and we
practice and train ourselves tounderstand what it is, what it
does, how it does it, when doesit what.
And then, because we are humanbeings, we have the ability to
(52:07):
say I'm not gonna, or I'm gonna,or I'm gonna sort of highlight
or develop this one part and I'mgonna, you know, kind of stop
feeding this other part of of,whether it's personality, quirks
or idiosyncrasies, or the waythat I am, or what have you.
So we are really a fantasticcreature, but there's a need for
(52:31):
understanding, et cetera, etcetera.
And so we went from thesocietal to the humanistic, and
then now, if we highlight thespiritualistic, if you will,
until we can recognize, realize,until some level of spiritual
(52:58):
development, the very tender andprecise dense of balancing is
not available to us.
So freedom from thatperspective, from the.
I don't know.
We want to call it higher,transcendental, transcendent
(53:21):
kind of thing or more subtle,whichever way you want to look
at it, wherever you want toplace it, sublime.
So yeah, from some, from thatstandpoint, for us to speak of
freedom is, uh, not correct.
And then to for us to furtherinterpret and misinterpret
(53:44):
freedom in the context of livingin a societal structure, as I
do what I want, it is also notcorrect.
So we need, of course, asalways, wakefulness and knowing
where we are.
If one truth it's that rockthing that you brought up, if
(54:06):
it's true that rocks are usefulfor nailing spikes, but it's
also true that there are rockswhere we're going, and it is
also true, then that you don'tneed to bring a rock, and if you
continue looking at it, thereare so many truths available to
(54:28):
us, and knowing on which trutham I operating, and having that
flexibility, because if I onlysee the truth of you know I need
to nail in these spikes thenyou fail to see the truth of the
place you're going to, and sothat's the thing.
(54:49):
Freedom, in a sense, the bestthat we could kind of muster up
here is the freedom to be ableto move from one dimension to
the other and understand therules and regulations and the
laws and the functions and thewhat of that said dimension and
operate within it.
Speaker 3 (55:12):
In essence you're saying jihye or banya Jihye
wisdom yeah, develop wisdom.
I know a wisdom tradition thatyou know helps you develop.
That is the ultimate goal, yeah, but so, yes, develop
wakefulness so that you can beaware, right, if you're not
(55:34):
aware, then you cannot enact anykind of change in your life.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
And acknowledge that there are multiple truths.
And that need to be viewed andand, and that where to move from
one show to the other with anunderstanding, not with the kind
of I bring my truth into yourlife and I force feed it to you.
That's not a truth, becausethat's my truth, but it violates
(56:01):
the truth that is your truth.
And so there's some mutualunderstanding that is required,
some transformative ability, thepliability and, like I said, we
are endowed with it by naturethat we have it, but it's not
(56:22):
the only truth.
The only truth isn't that we'reflexible.
There's also the truth thatwe're very rigid.
There's also truth that we'revery fixated.
There's also truth that we'reattachment prone and desire
prone and anger prone andjealousy prone and whatever,
whatever, whatever, whatever.
All of those things are truths.
And knowing within which realmam I operating, how to navigate
(56:44):
through, all of those things aretruths, right?
And knowing within which realmam I operating, how to navigate
through?
all those things andacknowledging the other side,
and then maybe the person thatwas told 999 times realizes the
truth of the fact that thatother person who told them so
will be happier.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
Just that I have a million mothers that would be
happy if what you say becomestrue, right.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
Right.
And then the mother then, orsomebody else, being able to
acknowledge the truth of theother person, for whatever
reason, right seems to renderthem incapable of the simple,
simple, simple task.
And is it possible that the waythat the task was initially
(57:35):
presented was the lesson notsufficient for the other person
to understand?
Was it just I told you and youdo as I told you so?
Or is it sort of dominance,right and imposing of the thing?
You put that thing over there.
You hear me.
You put that thing over there.
(57:57):
You hear me.
You put that thing over there,you hear me Right.
What if it's like over there,you hear me, right.
What if it's like you'rehelping me by putting this thing
?
I know it's not a big deal, butit expresses our mutual
understanding, our love for oneanother, that you could put the
(58:18):
thing over there and that's just.
You know, sometimes a nicebouquet of flowers on a
wednesday, just out of the blue,is a nice.
Bouquet of flowers on aWednesday, just out of the blue,
is a nice thing.
But also sometimes, if that cuplands where it's supposed to go
, that's a nice thing too.
And so maybe we don't know whatwe think, you don't know what I
think.
I don't know what you think,and in acknowledgement of that,
(58:40):
the only way of communicationthat we have is external.
So it's the verbal or bodilycommunication, and by doing that
thing, it's not about the cupgoing there, it's about what
that means.
There's a symbolism toeverything in life, and if that
cup going in, where it makes mylife easier, it's a symbolism of
(59:05):
you saying you care Right, andwe can go back and forth.
So it's freedom from one's onlytruth and adherence to that
truth, regardless and despite ofwhat the other truths may be.
(59:25):
That's right.
That's the other thing.
It ain't freedom, because we'reimprisoned by our own thinking
and then our emotional statesand our psychological states are
then imposed on us, because weare not free from being
subjugated by the other person'sbehavior.
So freedom, ha Bahamba, yeah,until next time.
(59:52):
I'm Young Ansonim, take care ofyourselves and each other.
Speaker 3 (59:56):
I'm Dr Ruben Lambert, From my heart to yours.
If you like what you heard,please tell someone else about
the World Through the Nightpodcast and share all the
goodness that we are sharingwith the world with others.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Please, topics.
Give us topics.
Today, by the way, is a 20thepisode 20th episode.
so we we really neveranticipated the I was going to
say longevity of it, but it islongevity when, when initially
(01:00:35):
setting up the podcast platform,one of the things that that one
is kind of warned is to saythat most podcasts die out by
like eight episodes or 10episodes, whatever the number
was.
So we're at 20, thanks to ourlisteners, and again we're in
our little truth.
For us, 20 is a significantthing.
(01:00:57):
Also for us, the fact that wehave over 1,000 downloads that's
a fantastic thing too.
I'm sure there's podcasts thathave a thousand downloads a day.
Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
For some people we're stuff, for some people we're
junk.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
But that's their truth.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
That's their truth and this is our truth and kudos
to them.
Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
Listen, progress is progress and we're going to
celebrate these milestonesIndeed.
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