April 4, 2025 • 57 mins
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What if your unconscious mind is secretly running the show while your conscious self merely justifies decisions already made in the shadows? This fascinating tension lies at the heart of our exploration of consciousness and the hidden programming that drives our behaviors.<br><br>Drawing from both Western psychological traditions and Eastern Zen philosophy, we dive deep into understanding the fundamental differences between conscious and unconscious mind processes. Jung's famous quote provides our starting point: "Until you make your unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate."<br><br>The Western psychological approach, pioneered by Freud and Jung, views the unconscious primarily as a repository for repressed traumas and dark experiences that must be excavated through external analysis. In contrast, Zen psychology offers a more comprehensive framework with eight distinct consciousnesses, culminating in the alaya-vijnana or "storehouse consciousness" - a concept that provides remarkable insight into how our deepest mental programming operates.<br><br>We unpack the practical implications of these different models, revealing why meditation serves as more than just relaxation but actually trains your ability to quiet the "loud" conscious mind enough to hear the "whispering" of your unconscious. This explains why traumas can feel so timeless and immediate regardless of when they occurred - the unconscious knows no time, only triggers and responses.<br><br>The most empowering revelation? While you cannot directly reprogram your unconscious mind, you can strategically use repetition and consistent practice over 21-90 days to create new patterns that gradually transform your automatic responses. Whether you're struggling with trauma, harmful habits, or simply feeling stuck in repetitive patterns, understanding this interface between your conscious choices and unconscious programming offers a pathway to genuine transformation.<br><br>Ready to peek beneath the floorboards of your conscious mind and discover what's really driving your decisions? Listen now, and never view your own choices quite the same way again.
Dr. Ruben Lambert can be found at wisdomspring.com
Ven. MyongAhn Sunim can be found at soshimsa.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
MyongAhn Sunim (00:14):
Welcome back.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (00:15):
We're back again.
MyongAhn Sunim (00:17):
We are back again, guess who's back?
Final episode.
Can you explain in layman termsthe difference between the
subconscious and the consciousminds?
Is there a way to train thesubconscious mind?
That's what's on the tabletoday.
I'm Myung An Sinim here with DrRuben Lambert.
(00:38):
Welcome back those of you whoare return listeners and welcome
for the first time.
If this is indeed your firsttime here, thank you for
checking us out.
Yes, you can read thedescription of who we are, what
we do and what this podcast isall about.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (00:54):
Yes, Wait but take this journey with us,
because you're going to learn alot of new things.
That's right.
MyongAhn Sunim (01:01):
Hopefully yes, or silly for entertainment
purposes.
So Fan Mail.
This is our second episode offan mail.
Now we have exciting it's, it'snice to see the audience
participate in the things thatwe're saying here it is we
really appreciate your feedbackand your support, of course,
yeah speaking of support, wehave on the buzzsprout platform,
(01:23):
which is where we host thepodcast, an opportunity or a
chance or don't miss a lifetimeopportunity to uh support
financially a couple bucks hereand there.
It helps to offset the cost ofthe platform, the processing,
all of that Obviously not likewe're going home with pocket
(01:45):
money, but the idea is just tohopefully break even in terms of
the production cost.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (01:54):
There's not enough there for our haircuts
Weekly haircuts that we need forthe podcast.
MyongAhn Sunim (01:59):
Yes, so this is the fan mail episode number two,
our episode number.
What are we?
Seven, seven, lucky numberseven.
Yeah, so, second of the fanmail episodes, it's nice.
It's nice because it sort offeels like interaction with the
(02:22):
audience, with with thelisteners.
So, like I said, today's topicor the questions are can you
explain in layman terms thedifference between the
subconscious and the consciousminds, and is there a way to
train the subconscious mind?
Now I think we have to tidy upa little bit the differences,
(02:46):
since there are some, betweensort of the Freudian, the
Jungian, unconscioussubconscious, whatever they call
it, and the let's call it, theZen divisions of self, if you
will.
Divisions of self, if you will,speaking of unconscious.
(03:09):
One of our listeners and amutual friend of ours, rafael,
had mentioned that he very muchenjoys and looks forward to
listening to the podcast, andwhat he noted is there is a beep
and the beep is our countdownclock.
We have a countdown clock thatwe've set for 45 minutes.
Now if it runs down to 45minutes, it starts beeping like
(03:30):
an alarm clock would.
So I usually pause it rightbefore, and so you might hear a
single beep and that's mestopping the alarm clock.
Now, here's the questionSpeaking of the unconscious
subconscious, and of course wehave to bring in a little bit of
here's the question Speaking ofthe unconscious subconscious,
and of course we have to bringin a little bit of Pavlov into
the conversation the beep andthe salivation glands, right.
(03:55):
And so Raphael so interestinglypointed out.
He said you know there's thisbeep and it's kind of like, oh
no, I know the end is coming.
You know they're going to go onfor maybe another five or 10
minutes, but I know it's coming.
So it's like I it wasn't surehow he feels about it it gives
him like a warning signs, likeokay, this is coming to an end
(04:17):
and it's a little bit of youknow, oh no, this is going to be
over.
So that's a sweet thing to say.
Now, for those of you who arelistening and have heard the
podcast, it's interesting.
I mean, now that I've dredgedit up, everyone's going to
notice the beep, and so thequestion is do we invest in a
different type countdown clockor is it in fact a kind of thing
(04:41):
?
It's going to be a thing.
Maybe, you know, for thepodcast, if you hear the beep
brace for the end, wipe yourtears.
There will be another episodecoming up, hopefully next Friday
.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (04:53):
Yes, it's the end of a joyous, pleasurable
time period, sort of like whenyou're a kid in a playground at
school and then the teacherblows the whistle.
You're like, oh, oh, shucks,it's over.
MyongAhn Sunim (05:06):
it is painful, but we have to learn to
transition out of those moments,there there is a, there is a.
See, here I am um off on a, offon a here we go but, that's
sort of get off the exit.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (05:19):
We meander, we meander.
Yeah, listen, there are u-turnsthat we can make, right so we
can get back on track don'tworry.
MyongAhn Sunim (05:25):
So, speaking of the timing and listening to that
, uh, there are and I forgetwhere this is, I want to say new
guinea.
Uh, children, school childrenare are trained, they're close
to nature and so they're attuned.
Maybe that's a better way.
(05:46):
When a certain bird call isheard that's almost sort of what
used to be like.
Once the street lights turn on,you better be home, type of
timing.
Right, they use a specific birdcall.
When they hear the bird call,they're like uh-oh time to go
home or you're going to get introuble.
They use a specific bird callto slow.
When they hear the bird call,they're like, oh, time to go
home, or, or you know, or you'regoing to get in trouble.
(06:07):
So it's um, let's think of,let's think of the beeping as a
bird call to say the end is.
I wonder if it's in my head.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (06:15):
I was like I wonder if it's a crow going
cause I just line that crowsactually have the intelligence
of a five-year-old child thatwas super interesting and they
were able to.
They had this box and this,this stick there was food inside
the box and they had to learnto create a hook and make tools
and problem solving tools andthings like that.
And then the other thing too,that was very interesting is
that they have a good memory,that they can actually hold a
(06:37):
grudge.
That's right.
MyongAhn Sunim (06:38):
So next time you see a crow, don't be careful,
don't piss them off, don't throwthings at it because they might
attack you when you get out ofthe car one day.
That's right, that was veryinteresting, so yeah, there's,
there's something else, yeah, sobeeping let's backtrack beeping
sounds.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (06:55):
What should we associate the beeping with?
Let's just do some.
Let's do some conditioningright now, on the spot.
Let's affect the unconscious ofthe whole public right now,
when you hear this beep.
Ladies and gentlemen, oh you'llsmile.
Coming to an end, oh you'llsmile it'll come to an end, but
I can't wait for next podcast.
MyongAhn Sunim (07:13):
Yes, beep podcast, beep podcast, every
beep from here going forwardevery thing that you hear,
you'll be thinking about theworld and you just can't put it
down.
That's right, when your alarmclock goes off in the morning,
let that beep remind you, yes,one of the masters, if you will,
(07:34):
in the Western tradition of theunconscious and dealing with
the unconscious, obviously isJung Jung.
Yes, he had said that until youmake your unconscious conscious
, it will direct your life andyou will call it fate.
And it's a good sort of place,maybe, to jump off, because we
(07:56):
have and and the audience, andyou must forgive my ignorance of
the western psychology.
I, I know, just, you know, holdon a minute.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (08:08):
Let the record scratch here for a second
, because I do want to give ananecdotal story really fast
before you go down that route,because this is actually
something that I learned.
MyongAhn Sunim (08:16):
This is going to take away my chance for
humility.
No, this is what I learned.
This is what I learned.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (08:19):
Yes, this is what I learned in psychology was
.
The father of Americanpsychology was called William
James and famously he was givinga lecture at some university
and a Buddhist monk walks in theroom and what that lecture was
known for and infamously writtenabout was that at that moment
he said you know what?
(08:39):
I'm going to take a seat andyou come up here and you give
this lecture.
So I think it is well known forthose in the field of
psychology that when it comes tothe world of the mind, the Zen
masters have been exploring thisway before.
Even modern psychology was evena thing.
So go ahead, you can humbleyourself now.
(09:01):
But I just want to make thatlittle note before you do that,
for the whole audience tounderstand Right.
MyongAhn Sunim (09:07):
So we have the Freudian and the Jungian,
obviously, the ideas of thesubconscious, and so much has
been written, and what I wasmaking disclaimer about is these
I don't know exactly thedetailed divisions and
subdivisions of consciousnessand the psyche, the way it's
(09:27):
presented to Western psychology,but I do feel that the Zen
psychology has a little bit moredetail, and so I think, before
we dive into this topic well, itis part of the topic, frankly-
(09:48):
Well, and Carl Jung actually wasan avid researcher of Eastern
philosophy.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (09:55):
I believe he wrote a book on the
interpretation of Easternphilosophies from the
psychological perspective.
Right.
MyongAhn Sunim (10:03):
And so the thing worth kind of hinging on is
this idea that he had viewed,from what I understand, viewed
dream interpretation as the onlyway to kind of peek into the
unconscious mind, and with theFreudian and Jungian principles
seem almost that the unconsciousor the subconscious, which one
(10:27):
is the right way.
Is it unconscious, subconscious?
Do they have a preference?
The iceberg?
Dr. Ruben Lambert (10:31):
When I'm really hungry and it's around
lunchtime.
I call it a subconscious, asubconscious Subconscious.
MyongAhn Sunim (10:38):
You consciously want to sub Subconsciously yes,
yeah, but they seem to be thesedepository places, into which
seems to me a big focus, andperhaps there's a parallel
between Zen and that principle.
(10:59):
All kind of dark things live,so they're repressed, the
traumas, those things are kindof dark things live, so the
repressed, the traumas, thosethings are kind of hidden over
there, for self-preservationpurposes perhaps.
But there isn't a mention ofjoyous things being stacked over
there, or at least not that Ihave seen.
I think there's a big focus onthe negative aspect of it and
(11:21):
this kind of dark dungeon.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (11:24):
Yeah, I think , because a lot of freud's work
was with defense mechanisms andso the unconscious was the
repository for all the thingsthat the uh conscious mind
didn't have the capacity to holdand process and things of that
nature.
So yeah, there are real quickjoke that some people say too.
(11:45):
I've heard people talk aboutFreud and the unconscious and
they're like oh.
Freud's definition of theunconscious was that you're not
aware of it.
So if you're not aware of it,how the heck do you know it even
exists?
MyongAhn Sunim (11:57):
Right.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (11:57):
Right, so that's just.
MyongAhn Sunim (11:59):
And I think this is why, perhaps in that story
that you've mentioned, the way Itend to view western psychology
versus zen psychology, if youwill, is the western psychology
shines the light at the person,but it's from the outside.
(12:21):
There's a psychologist andthey're they're shining light
into the dark crevasses of theperson, trying to find out what
things to address, what thingsneed addressing, traumas, etc.
Etc.
Patterns of behaviorunbeknownst to the person,
whereas in the Zen psychology weare trying to well, you know,
fancily enlighten ourselves, butit's almost as if it were from
(12:44):
within.
So if the light, the origin ofthe light, is internal and it
radiates out, it brightens andenlightens all of those dark
crevasses as the light kind ofyou know, in a sense,
metaphorically speaking, ispassing out and and this is
where the and this is where I'mgoing to say the biggest
(13:12):
difference is within the Jungianand Freudian, short of the
psychologist pointing to thingsand short of dream
interpretation, there is noaccess to what we would call in
Zen, which is the storehouseconsciousness.
Yes, so let's do a little bitof dissection from the Zen
(13:34):
perspective in terms ofconsciousnesses.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (13:37):
Let me get my mental scapula out.
MyongAhn Sunim (13:39):
Yes, so we have.
Let's go down the list of, andthere's some detailed
differences when we get into thenitty gritty, but for the sake
of a curriculum and for the sakeof dissection, for dissection,
for the sake of understanding,even try and tease apart the
(14:04):
self in a way that we do.
It's not for fun, it's so thatwe could understand each working
gear in a sense and see how thewhole thing interacts with one
thing, with another.
So we have eye consciousnessand the way that we consider
this.
We have the organ of the eyeitself.
(14:26):
We have the object seen.
Of course there's play of lightand you know the frequency of
the light that bounces back thecolor is that color that is
rejected by the thing whichbounces it back, blah, blah,
blah.
But so we have the organ of theeye.
There's the three things.
We have the organ of the eye,we have that which is being seen
or perceived, and then theintermediary is the conscious
(14:49):
consciousness.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (14:50):
Those two may contact right.
MyongAhn Sunim (14:52):
So when the the eye consciousness now is just
like a camera, yes and so so inthis breakdown there's no
thought associated with it justreflects the the lens right is
like the eye.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (15:08):
The lens of a camera is like the eye.
MyongAhn Sunim (15:09):
The lens purely takes in light right, that's the
organ that's the organ so theeye consciousness takes in
information, but it doesn't.
It does no processing of theinformation.
Then we have the same thingwith the ear consciousness.
So we have one eyeconsciousness, two ear
consciousness, three, noseconsciousness, four, mouth
(15:30):
consciousness, five, bodyconsciousness, and now we're
getting to the more ephemeraloisik.
Number six is a mindconsciousness, then.
So if we look at it this way,the good way perhaps to explain
it is are are cameras, the waythat you have your surveillance
of your home, and there's a TVscreen, and on that TV screen
(15:54):
all of that information is beingprojected or pulled into.
That's your oishik, that's yourconscious mind.
And then we have number sevenSitting behind the monitor is
that flippant thing we call ego,and it makes judgments, it
(16:15):
likes what it sees, or hears, ortastes, or it doesn't like it,
or it feels neutral about it.
So this is our basic breakdown,in a sense, of the machinery of
data collection, information,this vacuous, multi-ortifice
thing that we are.
Now, all this data goessomewhere, and we're not going
(16:43):
to get into the software versushardware discussion, right, but
I think there's a, there aregood metaphors in today's day
and age, because I think weunderstand now about the cloud
right I think just abouteveryone knows about the cloud.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (16:59):
So adiashik I see it many times is viewed as
a similar to the cloud so now wehave seven consciousnesses,
seventh being the ego.
MyongAhn Sunim (17:08):
This is the the one that needs, uh, controlling,
that needs directing.
It has a particular mode ofbehavior that governs it and
when left uncontrolled, it getsus into trouble.
Runs rampant yes.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (17:29):
When the cats are not around, the mice come
out to play.
MyongAhn Sunim (17:31):
It's part of time, and so we have then what
we broadly would call aryashik,which is this, yeah, usually
translated as storehouseconsciousness, the storehouse
consciousness.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (17:46):
Big warehouse consciousness.
MyongAhn Sunim (17:46):
Yeah, usually translated as storehouse
consciousness.
The storehouse consciousness,yes, Big warehouse consciousness
, and it is sort of theunconscious of the Western
psychology Right, or thesubconscious.
Now, within the Zen tradition,as we go through the stages of
(18:06):
spiritual development, thatwhich is believed to be beyond
accessible from the Westernstandpoint becomes in fact
accessible from the Zenstandpoint.
So we can this is a ratheradvanced state in terms of
(18:28):
spiritual development, but wecan in fact touch, if you will,
make contact, if you will, withthat part that we could call the
storehouse consciousness or theunconscious mind.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (18:44):
I think science, western science,
acknowledges some aspect of whatyou're saying Almost.
I mean, this is Freud's metaphorfor the unconscious, I'm just
going to borrow it.
But Western science understandsthe tip of the iceberg, let's
say, when it comes to theunconscious, they don't delve as
(19:04):
deep as people who trulydedicate their lives to the path
of Zen.
Because if you look at thingssuch as hypnosis or the concept
of repressed memories and I justread a scientific headline
recently and scientists aresaying that they understand now
(19:24):
that everything that youexperience through your five
senses is never lost, it it isall stored they would say, maybe
the hippocampus.
I would tell kids you want tobe hip on campus, you need to
work out your hippocampus.
When I give a college uhlecture, but yeah, so and and
(19:49):
and.
Then from the realm of hypnosis, the hypnotists understand that
when you put someone, when youput the conscious mind to rest
or to actually you distract itwith a side activity, you can
enter the realm of theunconscious.
And many hypnotists havereported and documented that
they've been able to retrievepast memories from their clients
(20:13):
that they have not been able toaccess right, and then with
great detail many times allright, and, and they, they even
go as far.
MyongAhn Sunim (20:20):
They have the, uh, past life regression.
Is that what it's called?
Sure, something?
Dr. Ruben Lambert (20:26):
yeah, then that, that, that it all depends,
right, because then there'shypnotist and hypnotherapies and
then there are people do pastlife regression, which is kind
of like the rebellious camp ofthe hypnotist right.
But yes, yeah, you know, how farback do you take it?
You know hypnotist will be like, yeah, we can take you back to
your childhood and we can goover some past traumas and
(20:48):
things like that.
And then the past liferegression.
People will be like, oh, we cango further back than that, we
can figure out if you're a clearpatch or not?
MyongAhn Sunim (20:56):
Right.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (20:57):
But science does acknowledge the fact that
there is some kind of storagewhen it comes to memories, and
oftentimes there are outsideinterferences that prevent us
from accessing it.
It's not that a person doesn'thave the memory, it's that we
don't know where what file weput it on there.
We don't know how to retrieveit so.
MyongAhn Sunim (21:19):
So, from from the zen viewpoint, what the
problem is is problem of thestorehouse.
Consciousness is quiet.
It stores things quietly, right?
The seven consciousnesses thatwe've discussed are very loud.
(21:40):
They're very loud.
They're by nature ravenous ofinformation around us.
So any visual, auditory,olfactory, whatever physical
stimuli is just gobbled up andso much noise goes on that it
(22:05):
drowns out.
What we could say is the silentkind of whispering of our
unconscious mind yelling at thetop of its lungs.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (22:15):
Actually, yeah, it's like a baby crying at
a metallica concert.
There you go here.
It's dry, it might be crying,but it is drowned out by all the
guitars and drums and all thatright and, and so we we are, we
are training in a senseourselves to quiet ourselves.
MyongAhn Sunim (22:34):
For that very reason, one of one of the the
reasons why we do meditation andthings of that nature is to try
and quiet down.
And we have a naturalexperience of this when you're
falling asleep and the theseloud consciousnesses become
(22:56):
subdued and quieter, quieter,quieter.
There's almost this kind of wewe cross.
You know, you walk past and youmaybe glance at your
unconscious mind as you're goinginto sleep.
Uh, various experiences are,are, are reported at that sweet
time of of of when that takesplace.
So how to, how to get down intothe unconscious mind?
(23:25):
Obviously, without training onecannot, and so one seeks out a
psychologist, a psychotherapist.
I read years ago a veryinteresting book by James
Hillman.
He's a Jungian psychologist andif I butchered the title,
(23:48):
forgive me.
We've had 100 years ofpsychotherapy and the world's
getting worse, I think that'swhat it was.
It was an interesting read, butit was one of those kind of
transformative views on world,on life.
(24:11):
You know, this was like I said,this was a long while ago, but
it offers to us, when we cannotaccess our deeper selves, let's
call it that we reach out toothers who can, because we have
(24:31):
such blind spots when we'retalking, when we're doing these
patterns of behavior, patternsof thinking that are.
You know, we're sitting here andthrough the floorboards, this
is our conscious world, ourconscious mind, and through the
floorboards, this is ourconscious world, our conscious
mind, and through thefloorboards of this floor on
(24:52):
which the conscious mind sits,as if we were in Delphi, and the
oracles of Delphi are downthere with their fumes of the
unconscious, inhaling it, youknow, just wafting through the
floorboards, and sometimes wecatch a whiff of it, and this is
how our traumas and triggerskind of creep up or sort of waft
(25:14):
out of the basement of theunconscious mind, out of the
basement of the unconscious mind, and they trigger a behavior
that is completely not unknownto us.
Right, and, and it's helpful tohave somebody who points it out
and says well, did you see howyou did x, y and z and people
usually say oh wow, I didn'teven notice that because they're
so caught up in their own storythat's weaving in their mind.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (25:41):
Yeah, that's a good point.
It's sort of like a pot with somany ingredients inside of it.
If you let it sit there andsettle, you only see the liquid,
right.
But when you stir the pot andyou start to shake it, then the
things, the sustenance that'sthere, comes to the surface.
And so many times people areacting out in a manner in which
they're not aware as to whatwere the fumes or what was the
(26:03):
fire, what was it that was thedriving force behind their
actions?
And so some of these therapiesare to make yourself aware of,
well, what are the things thatyou're storing in the closet.
And there's so many ways inwhich, again, zen can go very
deep, but psychology tries topoint out these things.
And it's not as deep, but juston a very basic premise.
(26:25):
For example, when there's somecognitive dissonance.
Right, where the things thatyou're saying doesn't match your
body language, let's say, forexample, where a person might be
completely uncomfortable in asocial situation, and then the
body is signaling that to theworld.
Right, their arms are crossedor their facial expressions are
(26:46):
very heavily mitigated.
Right, they're not showing youall these wide range of eye
movements and facial movements.
And then you ask a kid or anadult, you're like hey, how do
you feel?
You feel comfortable.
And they're like the conch.
The mouth is saying yes, right,but then the body is saying
there's that disconnect, right.
So then this is where you haveto merge those two worlds, the
conscious and maybe the deeperlevel of conscious, to help that
(27:09):
person line things up, linetheir, their thoughts with their
emotions and their actions, andand remove that interference we
are.
MyongAhn Sunim (27:17):
We are that sort of amalgamation of things.
We're like this emulsion of allthese different consciousnesses
and it's difficult to pick outjust where the information is
pouring in from.
Sometimes I talk about it interms of streams pouring into
one, and you can't tell whichstream, what water Once it pours
(27:40):
into one, and you can't tellwhich stream what water once it
pours into one area.
You can't tell this water'sfrom the eye consciousness.
This water's from the noseconsciousness, and even more so
than this water, this stream ofthought is from fantasizing
about the future or from somerepressed past things, et cetera
(28:00):
, et cetera.
Having said that, though, I dothink and and this might be
maybe controversial, I don'tknow I do think that there are
certain things that ought not betended to.
(28:21):
It's like the sweater thatyou've been wearing right, and
it's got this hanging string,and if a psychotherapist or a
psychologist or somebody decidesto tug on it, there is, I think
, a possibility of pulling toomuch, too much too much and you
unravel the whole thing, andthere is a reason why this
(28:46):
compartmentalization happens.
There's a reason why our mindworks the way it works.
Some things are not intended tobe dredged up.
Sometimes we need to faceforward focus on the forward
facing as opposed to thebackwards.
(29:08):
Here and now we can begin todiscern when these past patterns
are kind of coming into thishere and now and informing me.
And if we're cautious we couldsay wait a minute, just because
(29:29):
I'm having this thought that Ishould do such and such thing.
You know, I could call toquestion the validity of that
thought and decide whether is itin fact something that I want
to do or is it in fact somethingthat I've just been doing.
And this is where thatwakefulness business comes back.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (29:49):
We've talked about it before One of the prior
episodes.
MyongAhn Sunim (29:51):
yeah, We've talked about it before.
It is a significant element ofit.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (29:56):
I think there's a wisdom to be held in
those moments when you'reworking with somebody and there
might be a big differencebetween a therapist who's more
green and less experiencedversus someone who's more
cultured and more mature intheir practice.
Or, yeah, you might learn inschool like bring everything
from the unconscious out to thesurface, and then you're just
tugging on those strings and theperson is not even ready to
(30:17):
confront those fearful things orthose traumatic memories, right
, and so you might be doing moreharm than good at that moment.
MyongAhn Sunim (30:25):
Is there such a thing as re-traumatization?
Dr. Ruben Lambert (30:30):
Anytime you're doing work with people
that have PTSD post-traumaticstress disorder you always have
to prep them and let them knowthat the lingo is basically
you're probably going to feelworse before you feel better.
Right, because if you're goingto do some experiential therapy
exposure, I'm sorry, exposuretherapy which is basically
confronting your fears,naturally if you have a fear
(30:52):
association with, let's say,loud noises or snakes, and
you're going to show them asnake right in the basic
premises, you want to reversethe conditioning right, you want
them to be exposed to that uhsnake and have no harm come to
them so they can break that.
That chain, that link betweensnakes will harm me.
Now there's going to be newinformation that's going to be
(31:12):
engraved in the brain where it'slike okay, for the fast 20
minutes I've stared at the snakeand nothing has happened, so I
can now move on to move on andfeel as though, well, maybe it
is safe to to be around thesnake it's.
Maybe it's not every snake thatI see is going to bite me and
kill me.
But throughout that process,yes, we have to inform people
(31:32):
and let them know that it mightbe something that's gonna rev up
your engine, get your heartrate going, restoration rate
going, and then people that dothis kind of work might have to
have a longer session, becausethen at the end you have to kind
of bring them back to baselineright, bring them back to
balance right.
So, yeah, you have to prep them.
Yeah, you have to.
That's the first thing.
MyongAhn Sunim (31:52):
And again, this is a you know, zen meditation
techniques, breathing techniques, breathing techniques.
Right, we have somatictherapies where you use your
body to trigger, to circumvent,if you will, almost a nervous
system response.
And we do so much Zen work interms of meditation and
(32:18):
breathing exercise and things ofthat nature.
When you consider thefundamental Buddhist teachings
of the Four Noble Truths, lifeis filled with suffering.
Suffering is from the time ofbirth to the time of death, and
(32:39):
death is not an escape or we'rereborn over and over again.
And it's caused by X, y and Z.
It's pretty pessimistic.
And when we look at thisreality, we need meditation
practice.
The meditation practice is thecoping mechanism for coping with
realities of life.
We are going to face therealities of life.
(32:59):
We are going to face the truthof what life is, not our
imagined fairy tale, and thisisn't to say that there isn't
joy and beauty in life.
It appears pessimistic, butit's things that have been
avoided and things we don't liketo think about, you know.
(33:20):
And so what we are living in isa constant state of
perpetuating of our ignoranceand deception and self deception
and delusion, et cetera.
So meditation practices arekind of it's the exposure.
It's the exposure therapy oflife.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (33:34):
There's your crisis.
MyongAhn Sunim (33:35):
There's your trauma.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (33:36):
Delving right into the heart of things.
MyongAhn Sunim (33:38):
Yes, things are going to happen, happen.
Here is your coping mechanism,here's your coping technique do
your breathing, you do yourmeditation, your things, and
then, when life happens, usethem and and frequently what
what happens is people come tomeditation and they sit down and
they kind of misunderstandmaybe that point needs to be
(34:01):
pointed out is your meditationpractice is not so much
depending on the level, but notso much for your time on the
cushion, but as more so for thetime off the cushion, when life
presents its hardships, whenthere's difficulties.
That's when you cash in yourmeditation practice.
100 I have uh, I have a uh, Ihave a a poem.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (34:30):
If, if, um, if the audience, uh, would,
would the audience I'm gonnaspeak on behalf of the audience
and say go for it okay, so it itspeaks to the thing.
MyongAhn Sunim (34:41):
I've written this uh again very long time ago
, but it's uh, it speaks to thetopic, and so I I was reminded
my favorite one was the beast oftime.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (34:53):
It's that one time.
No, this is called reanimation.
Another day then yes,reanimation.
MyongAhn Sunim (34:59):
I have kicked in the padlocked gates of the
caracums of my psyche.
I have exhumed the deeply duggraves of my personal angels and
demons.
None that were found were dead,just waiting.
Now my demons and angels danceon the graves in the ecstatic
(35:23):
orgy of life, and it's sort of.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (35:27):
That's nice.
MyongAhn Sunim (35:28):
It's sort of.
I like that ending it sort ofdoes the Jungian thing right,
and Freud has that same thing.
It's the idea of that which isnot addressed.
Knoweth not the passage of time, kind of situation.
Yes, there are absolutelythings that.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (35:50):
Unresolved grief does not know the passage
of time.
MyongAhn Sunim (35:56):
And this really is true, and this really is true
.
And if the triggers happen, andif that perfect storm happens,
it's almost magical how a thingcould come up from the basement
of that mind.
And so, on the account of that,let's speak a little bit to the
(36:19):
question is there a way totrain the subconscious mind and
we won't be discussingManchurian candidates and the
subconscious and the subliminaltrigger words and things, which
is a you know, interestinglyenough, my aunt, post-second
(36:45):
World War, got a dog.
I've never met the dog, but Iwas told the stories of it.
A beautiful German shepherd,but it was trained by Nazis and
it was specifically trained toattack children.
Horrid as it may be and it wasit had a trigger word right and
(37:11):
and it's.
It is kind of informationdeposited into the unconscious
mind and then you have the keythat unlocks and makes this it.
It's, it's.
It's the same mechanism that atrigger which dredges up from
the basement of the mind thetraumatizing experience right so
(37:33):
it's the same mechanism.
So we know that this principleof training the subconscious, if
you will and we're going to getinto that in a bit is and has
been exploited.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (37:47):
Sure.
MyongAhn Sunim (37:48):
But we always seem to view it in these kind of
means of military applicationsand espionage and things of that
nature, applications and, youknow, espionage and things of
that nature.
But we forget that.
If in fact that is a thing, whycan't we do the same thing for
the good?
Why does it have to be so kindof dark and shady and, you know,
(38:12):
negative in nature, if we can?
And so the way we cannotdirectly train the unconscious
mind, that's so let's get thatout of the way.
The way that it's done is we've, we've, we've broken down the
consciousnesses down to theseventh consciousness.
(38:36):
This is stuff that isaccessible to us.
This is the conscious, awarestate.
Well, awareness is an optionalelement of it, but this is the
consciousness, and theconsciousness is that which
makes impact against ourconscious minds, namely that
which we like or that which wedislike, and the gradient of
(39:02):
that is that which we love orthat which we hate.
But, simply put, that which welike makes impact against our
senses.
We note it.
We notice it.
We make a mental note, tovarying degrees, that which we
hate or dislike same thing itimpacts against us.
That which is sort of meh, asthe kids would call it, it makes
(39:26):
no impact is not stored in thebasement Because it has not made
, it didn't qualify in a sense.
And so what we get in terms ofthis step-by-step process is our
conscious mind interacting withthe world makes.
(39:47):
Now, this is gonna complicatethings a little bit, but the way
that we make decisions aboutwhat we like and dislike is
informed by our karma, right.
So it is informed by our priorstuff in the basement to a large
degree.
But that which we like ordislike, that which we interact,
(40:10):
that which we note and takenote of and ingest into our
conscious mind ingest into ourconscious mind gets then
deposited into what we callhamjangsik, which is now
subdivision of that which wewould call, from the Western
standpoint, the unconscious.
So now we're getting intolayers of the unconscious A room
(40:33):
inside of a building.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (40:35):
Right.
MyongAhn Sunim (40:40):
So it's a kind of lasagna cake type of thing
situation, right, if you wannathink of it in those terms, and
I don't know that there is aparallel in Western psychology
to this element.
I think we have the consciousand then there's unconscious,
and it's this duality and theinteraction of those two, but,
from the Zen perspective, thethings that make their way into
(41:03):
the Hamjangsik.
Hamjangsik then depositsfurther, deeper into Muishik,
right?
So these terms are not of anyreally you know, importance,
because they're still sometimesthey go by different names.
So, but the point is that thereare layers and we have.
(41:26):
So the way to train yoursubconscious, as the listener
kind of said.
Is there a way to train thesubconscious mind?
The answer is not directly.
So how then do we in fact trainthe subconscious mind, if you
(41:46):
will?
Well, the things that we do,like I said, are deposited into
this first sublayer.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (41:55):
The way that we really drive it down deep
into the, the subconscious mind,is by repetition I can see now,
if, if the action or the skillin which you want to get deeper
into your basement, let's say orto into your own conscious,
(42:15):
like a nail, then I'd sayrepetition is the what Hammering
of that nail getting it deeperand deeper and deeper in there.
MyongAhn Sunim (42:24):
Yeah, so that is the way that we drive it deeper
into the unconscious mind, viarepetition.
This is the way to train theunconscious mind.
We drain it into the point ofwhat we then call habit, the
habitual behaviors, et cetera,et cetera.
Those can be trained byrepetition.
And so now we have thisinteraction of conscious mind
(42:47):
making the conscious effort andthe conscious decision to want
to somehow train ourselves,alter maybe our perspective,
whatever may be.
What do you do?
You then have to create foryourself a what perhaps a
psychologist would call atherapeutic goal or therapeutic.
(43:07):
Uh yeah, what do you call that?
Dr. Ruben Lambert (43:14):
again description oh yes, description.
MyongAhn Sunim (43:17):
You know, and, and so you, if you want to train
your subconscious, as thequestion is, this is what you do
.
You make a plan and that planyou love the podcast.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (43:31):
sorry, just practicing my hypnotherapy
skills Very good.
MyongAhn Sunim (43:36):
So you make a plan and you have to.
You know, we know these certainthings In Zen, we have these
numbers.
You know when you pray, orwhatever.
Three, seven, right, 21.
And psychology talks about 21days needed to start a habit,
right to start a habit.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (43:54):
To then solidify it, 90 to solidify or
100, you could say so this ishow we train our unconscious
mind.
MyongAhn Sunim (44:01):
if you will, you make a conscious decision about
it.
There's no training theunconscious mind directly.
It's unconscious right, Right.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (44:10):
The doorway is your conscious mind.
MyongAhn Sunim (44:11):
You start with your conscious mind, you make
the decision.
You make for yourself a plan, aschedule of whatever it is that
you're trying to and this istrue with anything we think of
only like exercise and eating,but no psychological patterns of
behavior.
If you want to detox from yoursevere addiction to phone or
(44:34):
gaming or whatever it may be,you make a plan.
You stick to that plan as if itwas the holy word of God, and
it is because you created it.
You're the God of this, andwe've talked about this in prior
episode, the need for, when wetalked about self-love, I
(44:54):
believe I had mentionedrespecting oneself.
You respect yourself in a waythat, if we think of our
teachers, or our you know thedisciple-master relationship, or
our schools or our parents, yourespect them and so you adhere
(45:16):
to their directions out ofrespect hopefully it's not out
of fear.
Right, respect and fear aredifferent.
Frankly, they're confused.
But so you, you, you honor that.
You respect their, their, theirwillingness and and their
direction to improve your life,whatever, whatever.
And it's in the same way whenyou make yourself a plan and you
(45:37):
make yourself a goal, yourespect it the way you would
respect it from whatever highestauthority in your life that you
can imagine.
There be.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (45:45):
That's why we say the schedule becomes your
master or your teacher.
Yes, right, yeah.
MyongAhn Sunim (45:51):
And so you do that, you implement it and it
seeps, the way that you kind ofwater plants, you water the soil
.
This is the conscious mind.
The water seeps down into thesoil but then gets uptake by the
(46:15):
root system and then it pumpsup into the crown, into the rest
of the tree or the plant orwhatever it is, and so then it
becomes kind of it comes out ina sense, and this is the pattern
of transforming our unconsciousmind.
Same thing you consciouslywater it, you let for that water
(46:35):
to seep in, get absorbed by theroots of the unconscious mind,
and then that comes up as itdoes.
This osmosis, kind of pumpingof the water from the root
system up into the crown, iswhat happens to us on a
day-to-day basis.
Anyway.
This is how we are informed bythe unconscious mind.
(46:56):
Yes, unbeknownst to us, but weare, it governs us.
How we are informed by theunconscious mind, yes,
unbeknownst to us, but we are,it governs us, but we are.
And then, as jung said, youknow, you, you, you call it fate
, you call it whatever, but it's, it's, uh, whether there's
self-justification that takesplace or just complete ignorance
of why and we see this all thetime with children, but we see
(47:20):
this with adults.
Oh, you shouldn't do that, Iknow I shouldn't do that.
Why did you do it?
I don't know, they don't knowwhy I did it, but I don't know
why.
And when we understand thedynamics, when we understand
these principles, it's helpfulbecause now we can know oh, did
you do it?
Yes, why I wasn't aware of it.
And that absence of awarenessallowed for these things that
(47:44):
dredged up, maybe to inform myactions, to sort of almost an
invasion of my intention.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (48:04):
Yes, and then that prevents you Then this
links back to a prior podcastfrom being able to create
headspace because you didn'tcatch it.
Because you didn't catch it, soyou cannot cleave the
connection, the old tether thatbound you to a reaction that was
fueled by past experiences.
Now you can't see it and cleaveit and then formulate a
(48:29):
different direction or adifferent pathway to go in.
MyongAhn Sunim (48:32):
Yeah, we call that kojong kwanyeom.
Kojong kwanyeom, this kind ofstuckness in a paradigm and a
perspective and a way ofthinking.
And again, we could do this asa self-exercise, be cautious in
(48:58):
selecting from the library ofpast experiences as an informant
of what the action right now isgoing to be.
And again, we have tounderstand the dynamic and the
principle of it is the principleof it is necessary.
If I was bitten by that snakethat you mentioned, then I have
grounds to be cautious about thesnake, right.
(49:19):
But then there's also in one ofthe sutras, the story of a
coiled rope, that a person inthe darkness stumbles upon a
coiled rope and thinks it'ssnake.
And when we have traumas andwhen we have things we are quick
to call a snake everything thatappears like a snake that
(49:45):
appears to be as a snake.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (49:46):
Resembles a snake, and so we have to have
some way for us and we respondto it in the same manner each
time that you would to a snake.
So there's absolutely nofreedom for that individual
who's suffering this kind oftraumatic trigger response.
It is a phantom and traumahaunts in that way.
It's horrible it literallytransforms a memory into a
phantom that plagues you andpursues you and grants you no
(50:08):
peace.
It can be something that seepsup to the surface on a
day-to-day basis, whether you'reat work, driving to work or
interacting with a loved one, orgoing to sleep at night yeah,
and it robs, and it robs.
MyongAhn Sunim (50:21):
It's a past that robs you of, I want to say the
future, but it you know if we'regoing to go, zen, pure zen on
this.
The past no longer exists, thefuture doesn't exist yet, right?
So what it does rob you of isthe present moment.
The past has the capacity torob you of the here and now, and
so then we don't allowourselves, or we we're incapable
(50:45):
of experiencing a joy on theaccount of a phantom, of a, of a
uh, I mean, that could be abeautiful necklace or pearl
necklace or what have you thatco coiled rope.
But if you're haunted by theghouls and the ghosts and of
your snake experience, thenyou're going to see it as a
snake and react to it as a snake, and it will steal your present
(51:09):
and, of course, it will alsoprevent you from forward
movement.
So if you imagine that I'mgoing to go and there's going to
be snakes, for more movement.
So if you imagine that I'm goingto go and there's going to be
snakes, you made an assumptionof it and it robs you of that
also.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (51:23):
So sometimes I give this example when a
person experiences their pastmemories as a trauma, basically
they're breathing life into thatmemory and making it as though
it is an actual, real experiencein the here and now.
There's actually no difference.
A person who, let's say, waspart of 9-11 in New York City
and they experienced the TwinTowers collapsing and they made
(51:47):
an association between high-risetowers and death.
The next time that they see ahigh-rise tower, they will
re-experience that past memoryand their heart rate will go up,
their respiration rate will goup.
They will re-experience thatpast memory and their heart rate
will go up.
Their respiration rate will goup, they'll start to sweat,
they'll go into a panic and afear, as if they were truly
living.
Actually, in their mind,there's no difference at that
(52:07):
very moment between what theylived and what they're living at
that very moment.
And so what oftentimes will workis to go back into those past
memories and transform them sothat you can distance yourself
from them and understand thatmemories are not facts.
Memories are not active at thispresent moment, and I like to
(52:29):
tell people if you can transformthem into a museum because, as
we've said and I've heard, heardyou say this the past is the
museum of your life.
So think about a museum.
If you visit the museum ofnatural history, you can see
dinosaurs and woolly mammothsand snakes and any animal that
is fearful.
You can go back, you can touchit, you can examine it.
They're not going to get youuntil you're able to transform
(52:52):
that traumatic experience intojust a past memory that is no
longer alive at this presentmoment.
It is very difficult and evendangerous for a person with
trauma to go back there, becausethey relive it yeah yeah and
then.
MyongAhn Sunim (53:10):
So that's, that's our summarize, maybe our
our episode today.
Yes, you can deposit thingsinto your subconscious or your
unconscious mind.
You do so through consciouseffort and sustained effort and
practice and in that way you canchange that.
(53:35):
This is the See, there's theelement in in zen psychology.
You cannot erase your karma ofthe past, but what you can do is
you could cover it up with new.
And this is where the emphasison that sort of beginner's mind
or clear your mind or all thosecliche terms are pointing to is
(54:01):
the fact that we are here rightnow and in the here, right now,
we have the opportunity torewrite as we're going forward,
but you're not rewriting thepast, but you're not rewriting
the past.
You're writing into the presentmoment, which then gets
deposited into your past.
Right, as opposed to sort ofthis rowing like the rowboat
(54:26):
idea.
Right, you're looking backwards, you're rowing to propel
yourself forwards, but you can'tsee where you're going, kind of
thing.
Get a kayak, turn it around.
You could look forward, youknow, and not necessarily,
because forward is the momentumof life, this is the stream
(54:47):
flows forward and, of course,there's a balance.
There's so much more that wecould talk about, so many
nuanced elements of this topicthat I hope our audience
understands that we could onlyget so much done even though the
beep already has gone.
Yeah, so thank you, those ofyou who are listening, thank you
(55:14):
those of you who are suggestingthese topics.
It in fact makes our lifeeasier In a sense.
We don't have to come up with atopic and and again it.
There's a sense of interactionalmost I don't know who this
particular listener is, thatthat presented this question.
We thank you for it.
(55:35):
We hope that we were able toshed some light on it.
Sometimes our perspectives aregoing to vary differently, not
necessarily that Dr Lambert is aDr Lambert, but is also a
Musang Sinim, and so sometimes Ipush him to present a
(55:55):
psychological perspective as thedoctor.
From that point of view,obviously his understanding, his
training is in these two worlds.
But we kind of play aShakespearean thing up here to a
certain degree.
He speaks from thepsychological element and I
speak from the Zen, but there'soverlaps and I speak from the
(56:17):
Zen, but there's overlaps.
The point being is there'salways so much more that we
could talk about these topics.
We thank you for all of them.
Until then, take care ofyourselves and each other.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (56:31):
Thank you, please subscribe and like and if
you like what you hear, makesure you pass it on to somebody
else so that they can enjoy ourwonderful podcast also.
And you can follow me for morepositive information on
psychology wellness and stressmanagement.
You can follow me on instagramat wisdom spring wellness or you
can find me on youtube atwisdom spring wellness also.
(56:51):
Thank you very much.
Welcome back.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (00:15):
We're back again.
MyongAhn Sunim (00:17):
We are back again, guess who's back?
Final episode.
Can you explain in layman termsthe difference between the
subconscious and the consciousminds?
Is there a way to train thesubconscious mind?
That's what's on the tabletoday.
I'm Myung An Sinim here with DrRuben Lambert.
(00:38):
Welcome back those of you whoare return listeners and welcome
for the first time.
If this is indeed your firsttime here, thank you for
checking us out.
Yes, you can read thedescription of who we are, what
we do and what this podcast isall about.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (00:54):
Yes, Wait but take this journey with us,
because you're going to learn alot of new things.
That's right.
MyongAhn Sunim (01:01):
Hopefully yes, or silly for entertainment
purposes.
So Fan Mail.
This is our second episode offan mail.
Now we have exciting it's, it'snice to see the audience
participate in the things thatwe're saying here it is we
really appreciate your feedbackand your support, of course,
yeah speaking of support, wehave on the buzzsprout platform,
(01:23):
which is where we host thepodcast, an opportunity or a
chance or don't miss a lifetimeopportunity to uh support
financially a couple bucks hereand there.
It helps to offset the cost ofthe platform, the processing,
all of that Obviously not likewe're going home with pocket
(01:45):
money, but the idea is just tohopefully break even in terms of
the production cost.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (01:54):
There's not enough there for our haircuts
Weekly haircuts that we need forthe podcast.
MyongAhn Sunim (01:59):
Yes, so this is the fan mail episode number two,
our episode number.
What are we?
Seven, seven, lucky numberseven.
Yeah, so, second of the fanmail episodes, it's nice.
It's nice because it sort offeels like interaction with the
(02:22):
audience, with with thelisteners.
So, like I said, today's topicor the questions are can you
explain in layman terms thedifference between the
subconscious and the consciousminds, and is there a way to
train the subconscious mind?
Now I think we have to tidy upa little bit the differences,
(02:46):
since there are some, betweensort of the Freudian, the
Jungian, unconscioussubconscious, whatever they call
it, and the let's call it, theZen divisions of self, if you
will.
Divisions of self, if you will,speaking of unconscious.
(03:09):
One of our listeners and amutual friend of ours, rafael,
had mentioned that he very muchenjoys and looks forward to
listening to the podcast, andwhat he noted is there is a beep
and the beep is our countdownclock.
We have a countdown clock thatwe've set for 45 minutes.
Now if it runs down to 45minutes, it starts beeping like
(03:30):
an alarm clock would.
So I usually pause it rightbefore, and so you might hear a
single beep and that's mestopping the alarm clock.
Now, here's the questionSpeaking of the unconscious
subconscious, and of course wehave to bring in a little bit of
here's the question Speaking ofthe unconscious subconscious,
and of course we have to bringin a little bit of Pavlov into
the conversation the beep andthe salivation glands, right.
(03:55):
And so Raphael so interestinglypointed out.
He said you know there's thisbeep and it's kind of like, oh
no, I know the end is coming.
You know they're going to go onfor maybe another five or 10
minutes, but I know it's coming.
So it's like I it wasn't surehow he feels about it it gives
him like a warning signs, likeokay, this is coming to an end
(04:17):
and it's a little bit of youknow, oh no, this is going to be
over.
So that's a sweet thing to say.
Now, for those of you who arelistening and have heard the
podcast, it's interesting.
I mean, now that I've dredgedit up, everyone's going to
notice the beep, and so thequestion is do we invest in a
different type countdown clockor is it in fact a kind of thing
(04:41):
?
It's going to be a thing.
Maybe, you know, for thepodcast, if you hear the beep
brace for the end, wipe yourtears.
There will be another episodecoming up, hopefully next Friday
.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (04:53):
Yes, it's the end of a joyous, pleasurable
time period, sort of like whenyou're a kid in a playground at
school and then the teacherblows the whistle.
You're like, oh, oh, shucks,it's over.
MyongAhn Sunim (05:06):
it is painful, but we have to learn to
transition out of those moments,there there is a, there is a.
See, here I am um off on a, offon a here we go but, that's
sort of get off the exit.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (05:19):
We meander, we meander.
Yeah, listen, there are u-turnsthat we can make, right so we
can get back on track don'tworry.
MyongAhn Sunim (05:25):
So, speaking of the timing and listening to that
, uh, there are and I forgetwhere this is, I want to say new
guinea.
Uh, children, school childrenare are trained, they're close
to nature and so they're attuned.
Maybe that's a better way.
(05:46):
When a certain bird call isheard that's almost sort of what
used to be like.
Once the street lights turn on,you better be home, type of
timing.
Right, they use a specific birdcall.
When they hear the bird call,they're like uh-oh time to go
home or you're going to get introuble.
They use a specific bird callto slow.
When they hear the bird call,they're like, oh, time to go
home, or, or you know, or you'regoing to get in trouble.
(06:07):
So it's um, let's think of,let's think of the beeping as a
bird call to say the end is.
I wonder if it's in my head.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (06:15):
I was like I wonder if it's a crow going
cause I just line that crowsactually have the intelligence
of a five-year-old child thatwas super interesting and they
were able to.
They had this box and this,this stick there was food inside
the box and they had to learnto create a hook and make tools
and problem solving tools andthings like that.
And then the other thing too,that was very interesting is
that they have a good memory,that they can actually hold a
(06:37):
grudge.
That's right.
MyongAhn Sunim (06:38):
So next time you see a crow, don't be careful,
don't piss them off, don't throwthings at it because they might
attack you when you get out ofthe car one day.
That's right, that was veryinteresting, so yeah, there's,
there's something else, yeah, sobeeping let's backtrack beeping
sounds.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (06:55):
What should we associate the beeping with?
Let's just do some.
Let's do some conditioningright now, on the spot.
Let's affect the unconscious ofthe whole public right now,
when you hear this beep.
Ladies and gentlemen, oh you'llsmile.
Coming to an end, oh you'llsmile it'll come to an end, but
I can't wait for next podcast.
MyongAhn Sunim (07:13):
Yes, beep podcast, beep podcast, every
beep from here going forwardevery thing that you hear,
you'll be thinking about theworld and you just can't put it
down.
That's right, when your alarmclock goes off in the morning,
let that beep remind you, yes,one of the masters, if you will,
(07:34):
in the Western tradition of theunconscious and dealing with
the unconscious, obviously isJung Jung.
Yes, he had said that until youmake your unconscious conscious
, it will direct your life andyou will call it fate.
And it's a good sort of place,maybe, to jump off, because we
(07:56):
have and and the audience, andyou must forgive my ignorance of
the western psychology.
I, I know, just, you know, holdon a minute.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (08:08):
Let the record scratch here for a second
, because I do want to give ananecdotal story really fast
before you go down that route,because this is actually
something that I learned.
MyongAhn Sunim (08:16):
This is going to take away my chance for
humility.
No, this is what I learned.
This is what I learned.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (08:19):
Yes, this is what I learned in psychology was
.
The father of Americanpsychology was called William
James and famously he was givinga lecture at some university
and a Buddhist monk walks in theroom and what that lecture was
known for and infamously writtenabout was that at that moment
he said you know what?
(08:39):
I'm going to take a seat andyou come up here and you give
this lecture.
So I think it is well known forthose in the field of
psychology that when it comes tothe world of the mind, the Zen
masters have been exploring thisway before.
Even modern psychology was evena thing.
So go ahead, you can humbleyourself now.
(09:01):
But I just want to make thatlittle note before you do that,
for the whole audience tounderstand Right.
MyongAhn Sunim (09:07):
So we have the Freudian and the Jungian,
obviously, the ideas of thesubconscious, and so much has
been written, and what I wasmaking disclaimer about is these
I don't know exactly thedetailed divisions and
subdivisions of consciousnessand the psyche, the way it's
(09:27):
presented to Western psychology,but I do feel that the Zen
psychology has a little bit moredetail, and so I think, before
we dive into this topic well, itis part of the topic, frankly-
(09:48):
Well, and Carl Jung actually wasan avid researcher of Eastern
philosophy.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (09:55):
I believe he wrote a book on the
interpretation of Easternphilosophies from the
psychological perspective.
Right.
MyongAhn Sunim (10:03):
And so the thing worth kind of hinging on is
this idea that he had viewed,from what I understand, viewed
dream interpretation as the onlyway to kind of peek into the
unconscious mind, and with theFreudian and Jungian principles
seem almost that the unconsciousor the subconscious, which one
(10:27):
is the right way.
Is it unconscious, subconscious?
Do they have a preference?
The iceberg?
Dr. Ruben Lambert (10:31):
When I'm really hungry and it's around
lunchtime.
I call it a subconscious, asubconscious Subconscious.
MyongAhn Sunim (10:38):
You consciously want to sub Subconsciously yes,
yeah, but they seem to be thesedepository places, into which
seems to me a big focus, andperhaps there's a parallel
between Zen and that principle.
(10:59):
All kind of dark things live,so they're repressed, the
traumas, those things are kindof dark things live, so the
repressed, the traumas, thosethings are kind of hidden over
there, for self-preservationpurposes perhaps.
But there isn't a mention ofjoyous things being stacked over
there, or at least not that Ihave seen.
I think there's a big focus onthe negative aspect of it and
(11:21):
this kind of dark dungeon.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (11:24):
Yeah, I think , because a lot of freud's work
was with defense mechanisms andso the unconscious was the
repository for all the thingsthat the uh conscious mind
didn't have the capacity to holdand process and things of that
nature.
So yeah, there are real quickjoke that some people say too.
(11:45):
I've heard people talk aboutFreud and the unconscious and
they're like oh.
Freud's definition of theunconscious was that you're not
aware of it.
So if you're not aware of it,how the heck do you know it even
exists?
MyongAhn Sunim (11:57):
Right.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (11:57):
Right, so that's just.
MyongAhn Sunim (11:59):
And I think this is why, perhaps in that story
that you've mentioned, the way Itend to view western psychology
versus zen psychology, if youwill, is the western psychology
shines the light at the person,but it's from the outside.
(12:21):
There's a psychologist andthey're they're shining light
into the dark crevasses of theperson, trying to find out what
things to address, what thingsneed addressing, traumas, etc.
Etc.
Patterns of behaviorunbeknownst to the person,
whereas in the Zen psychology weare trying to well, you know,
fancily enlighten ourselves, butit's almost as if it were from
(12:44):
within.
So if the light, the origin ofthe light, is internal and it
radiates out, it brightens andenlightens all of those dark
crevasses as the light kind ofyou know, in a sense,
metaphorically speaking, ispassing out and and this is
where the and this is where I'mgoing to say the biggest
(13:12):
difference is within the Jungianand Freudian, short of the
psychologist pointing to thingsand short of dream
interpretation, there is noaccess to what we would call in
Zen, which is the storehouseconsciousness.
Yes, so let's do a little bitof dissection from the Zen
(13:34):
perspective in terms ofconsciousnesses.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (13:37):
Let me get my mental scapula out.
MyongAhn Sunim (13:39):
Yes, so we have.
Let's go down the list of, andthere's some detailed
differences when we get into thenitty gritty, but for the sake
of a curriculum and for the sakeof dissection, for dissection,
for the sake of understanding,even try and tease apart the
(14:04):
self in a way that we do.
It's not for fun, it's so thatwe could understand each working
gear in a sense and see how thewhole thing interacts with one
thing, with another.
So we have eye consciousnessand the way that we consider
this.
We have the organ of the eyeitself.
(14:26):
We have the object seen.
Of course there's play of lightand you know the frequency of
the light that bounces back thecolor is that color that is
rejected by the thing whichbounces it back, blah, blah,
blah.
But so we have the organ of theeye.
There's the three things.
We have the organ of the eye,we have that which is being seen
or perceived, and then theintermediary is the conscious
(14:49):
consciousness.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (14:50):
Those two may contact right.
MyongAhn Sunim (14:52):
So when the the eye consciousness now is just
like a camera, yes and so so inthis breakdown there's no
thought associated with it justreflects the the lens right is
like the eye.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (15:08):
The lens of a camera is like the eye.
MyongAhn Sunim (15:09):
The lens purely takes in light right, that's the
organ that's the organ so theeye consciousness takes in
information, but it doesn't.
It does no processing of theinformation.
Then we have the same thingwith the ear consciousness.
So we have one eyeconsciousness, two ear
consciousness, three, noseconsciousness, four, mouth
(15:30):
consciousness, five, bodyconsciousness, and now we're
getting to the more ephemeraloisik.
Number six is a mindconsciousness, then.
So if we look at it this way,the good way perhaps to explain
it is are are cameras, the waythat you have your surveillance
of your home, and there's a TVscreen, and on that TV screen
(15:54):
all of that information is beingprojected or pulled into.
That's your oishik, that's yourconscious mind.
And then we have number sevenSitting behind the monitor is
that flippant thing we call ego,and it makes judgments, it
(16:15):
likes what it sees, or hears, ortastes, or it doesn't like it,
or it feels neutral about it.
So this is our basic breakdown,in a sense, of the machinery of
data collection, information,this vacuous, multi-ortifice
thing that we are.
Now, all this data goessomewhere, and we're not going
(16:43):
to get into the software versushardware discussion, right, but
I think there's a, there aregood metaphors in today's day
and age, because I think weunderstand now about the cloud
right I think just abouteveryone knows about the cloud.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (16:59):
So adiashik I see it many times is viewed as
a similar to the cloud so now wehave seven consciousnesses,
seventh being the ego.
MyongAhn Sunim (17:08):
This is the the one that needs, uh, controlling,
that needs directing.
It has a particular mode ofbehavior that governs it and
when left uncontrolled, it getsus into trouble.
Runs rampant yes.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (17:29):
When the cats are not around, the mice come
out to play.
MyongAhn Sunim (17:31):
It's part of time, and so we have then what
we broadly would call aryashik,which is this, yeah, usually
translated as storehouseconsciousness, the storehouse
consciousness.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (17:46):
Big warehouse consciousness.
MyongAhn Sunim (17:46):
Yeah, usually translated as storehouse
consciousness.
The storehouse consciousness,yes, Big warehouse consciousness
, and it is sort of theunconscious of the Western
psychology Right, or thesubconscious.
Now, within the Zen tradition,as we go through the stages of
(18:06):
spiritual development, thatwhich is believed to be beyond
accessible from the Westernstandpoint becomes in fact
accessible from the Zenstandpoint.
So we can this is a ratheradvanced state in terms of
(18:28):
spiritual development, but wecan in fact touch, if you will,
make contact, if you will, withthat part that we could call the
storehouse consciousness or theunconscious mind.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (18:44):
I think science, western science,
acknowledges some aspect of whatyou're saying Almost.
I mean, this is Freud's metaphorfor the unconscious, I'm just
going to borrow it.
But Western science understandsthe tip of the iceberg, let's
say, when it comes to theunconscious, they don't delve as
(19:04):
deep as people who trulydedicate their lives to the path
of Zen.
Because if you look at thingssuch as hypnosis or the concept
of repressed memories and I justread a scientific headline
recently and scientists aresaying that they understand now
(19:24):
that everything that youexperience through your five
senses is never lost, it it isall stored they would say, maybe
the hippocampus.
I would tell kids you want tobe hip on campus, you need to
work out your hippocampus.
When I give a college uhlecture, but yeah, so and and
(19:49):
and.
Then from the realm of hypnosis, the hypnotists understand that
when you put someone, when youput the conscious mind to rest
or to actually you distract itwith a side activity, you can
enter the realm of theunconscious.
And many hypnotists havereported and documented that
they've been able to retrievepast memories from their clients
(20:13):
that they have not been able toaccess right, and then with
great detail many times allright, and, and they, they even
go as far.
MyongAhn Sunim (20:20):
They have the, uh, past life regression.
Is that what it's called?
Sure, something?
Dr. Ruben Lambert (20:26):
yeah, then that, that, that it all depends,
right, because then there'shypnotist and hypnotherapies and
then there are people do pastlife regression, which is kind
of like the rebellious camp ofthe hypnotist right.
But yes, yeah, you know, how farback do you take it?
You know hypnotist will be like, yeah, we can take you back to
your childhood and we can goover some past traumas and
(20:48):
things like that.
And then the past liferegression.
People will be like, oh, we cango further back than that, we
can figure out if you're a clearpatch or not?
MyongAhn Sunim (20:56):
Right.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (20:57):
But science does acknowledge the fact that
there is some kind of storagewhen it comes to memories, and
oftentimes there are outsideinterferences that prevent us
from accessing it.
It's not that a person doesn'thave the memory, it's that we
don't know where what file weput it on there.
We don't know how to retrieveit so.
MyongAhn Sunim (21:19):
So, from from the zen viewpoint, what the
problem is is problem of thestorehouse.
Consciousness is quiet.
It stores things quietly, right?
The seven consciousnesses thatwe've discussed are very loud.
(21:40):
They're very loud.
They're by nature ravenous ofinformation around us.
So any visual, auditory,olfactory, whatever physical
stimuli is just gobbled up andso much noise goes on that it
(22:05):
drowns out.
What we could say is the silentkind of whispering of our
unconscious mind yelling at thetop of its lungs.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (22:15):
Actually, yeah, it's like a baby crying at
a metallica concert.
There you go here.
It's dry, it might be crying,but it is drowned out by all the
guitars and drums and all thatright and, and so we we are, we
are training in a senseourselves to quiet ourselves.
MyongAhn Sunim (22:34):
For that very reason, one of one of the the
reasons why we do meditation andthings of that nature is to try
and quiet down.
And we have a naturalexperience of this when you're
falling asleep and the theseloud consciousnesses become
(22:56):
subdued and quieter, quieter,quieter.
There's almost this kind of wewe cross.
You know, you walk past and youmaybe glance at your
unconscious mind as you're goinginto sleep.
Uh, various experiences are,are, are reported at that sweet
time of of of when that takesplace.
So how to, how to get down intothe unconscious mind?
(23:25):
Obviously, without training onecannot, and so one seeks out a
psychologist, a psychotherapist.
I read years ago a veryinteresting book by James
Hillman.
He's a Jungian psychologist andif I butchered the title,
(23:48):
forgive me.
We've had 100 years ofpsychotherapy and the world's
getting worse, I think that'swhat it was.
It was an interesting read, butit was one of those kind of
transformative views on world,on life.
(24:11):
You know, this was like I said,this was a long while ago, but
it offers to us, when we cannotaccess our deeper selves, let's
call it that we reach out toothers who can, because we have
(24:31):
such blind spots when we'retalking, when we're doing these
patterns of behavior, patternsof thinking that are.
You know, we're sitting here andthrough the floorboards, this
is our conscious world, ourconscious mind, and through the
floorboards, this is ourconscious world, our conscious
mind, and through thefloorboards of this floor on
(24:52):
which the conscious mind sits,as if we were in Delphi, and the
oracles of Delphi are downthere with their fumes of the
unconscious, inhaling it, youknow, just wafting through the
floorboards, and sometimes wecatch a whiff of it, and this is
how our traumas and triggerskind of creep up or sort of waft
(25:14):
out of the basement of theunconscious mind, out of the
basement of the unconscious mind, and they trigger a behavior
that is completely not unknownto us.
Right, and, and it's helpful tohave somebody who points it out
and says well, did you see howyou did x, y and z and people
usually say oh wow, I didn'teven notice that because they're
so caught up in their own storythat's weaving in their mind.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (25:41):
Yeah, that's a good point.
It's sort of like a pot with somany ingredients inside of it.
If you let it sit there andsettle, you only see the liquid,
right.
But when you stir the pot andyou start to shake it, then the
things, the sustenance that'sthere, comes to the surface.
And so many times people areacting out in a manner in which
they're not aware as to whatwere the fumes or what was the
(26:03):
fire, what was it that was thedriving force behind their
actions?
And so some of these therapiesare to make yourself aware of,
well, what are the things thatyou're storing in the closet.
And there's so many ways inwhich, again, zen can go very
deep, but psychology tries topoint out these things.
And it's not as deep, but juston a very basic premise.
(26:25):
For example, when there's somecognitive dissonance.
Right, where the things thatyou're saying doesn't match your
body language, let's say, forexample, where a person might be
completely uncomfortable in asocial situation, and then the
body is signaling that to theworld.
Right, their arms are crossedor their facial expressions are
(26:46):
very heavily mitigated.
Right, they're not showing youall these wide range of eye
movements and facial movements.
And then you ask a kid or anadult, you're like hey, how do
you feel?
You feel comfortable.
And they're like the conch.
The mouth is saying yes, right,but then the body is saying
there's that disconnect, right.
So then this is where you haveto merge those two worlds, the
conscious and maybe the deeperlevel of conscious, to help that
(27:09):
person line things up, linetheir, their thoughts with their
emotions and their actions, andand remove that interference we
are.
MyongAhn Sunim (27:17):
We are that sort of amalgamation of things.
We're like this emulsion of allthese different consciousnesses
and it's difficult to pick outjust where the information is
pouring in from.
Sometimes I talk about it interms of streams pouring into
one, and you can't tell whichstream, what water Once it pours
(27:40):
into one, and you can't tellwhich stream what water once it
pours into one area.
You can't tell this water'sfrom the eye consciousness.
This water's from the noseconsciousness, and even more so
than this water, this stream ofthought is from fantasizing
about the future or from somerepressed past things, et cetera
(28:00):
, et cetera.
Having said that, though, I dothink and and this might be
maybe controversial, I don'tknow I do think that there are
certain things that ought not betended to.
(28:21):
It's like the sweater thatyou've been wearing right, and
it's got this hanging string,and if a psychotherapist or a
psychologist or somebody decidesto tug on it, there is, I think
, a possibility of pulling toomuch, too much too much and you
unravel the whole thing, andthere is a reason why this
(28:46):
compartmentalization happens.
There's a reason why our mindworks the way it works.
Some things are not intended tobe dredged up.
Sometimes we need to faceforward focus on the forward
facing as opposed to thebackwards.
(29:08):
Here and now we can begin todiscern when these past patterns
are kind of coming into thishere and now and informing me.
And if we're cautious we couldsay wait a minute, just because
(29:29):
I'm having this thought that Ishould do such and such thing.
You know, I could call toquestion the validity of that
thought and decide whether is itin fact something that I want
to do or is it in fact somethingthat I've just been doing.
And this is where thatwakefulness business comes back.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (29:49):
We've talked about it before One of the prior
episodes.
MyongAhn Sunim (29:51):
yeah, We've talked about it before.
It is a significant element ofit.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (29:56):
I think there's a wisdom to be held in
those moments when you'reworking with somebody and there
might be a big differencebetween a therapist who's more
green and less experiencedversus someone who's more
cultured and more mature intheir practice.
Or, yeah, you might learn inschool like bring everything
from the unconscious out to thesurface, and then you're just
tugging on those strings and theperson is not even ready to
(30:17):
confront those fearful things orthose traumatic memories, right
, and so you might be doing moreharm than good at that moment.
MyongAhn Sunim (30:25):
Is there such a thing as re-traumatization?
Dr. Ruben Lambert (30:30):
Anytime you're doing work with people
that have PTSD post-traumaticstress disorder you always have
to prep them and let them knowthat the lingo is basically
you're probably going to feelworse before you feel better.
Right, because if you're goingto do some experiential therapy
exposure, I'm sorry, exposuretherapy which is basically
confronting your fears,naturally if you have a fear
(30:52):
association with, let's say,loud noises or snakes, and
you're going to show them asnake right in the basic
premises, you want to reversethe conditioning right, you want
them to be exposed to that uhsnake and have no harm come to
them so they can break that.
That chain, that link betweensnakes will harm me.
Now there's going to be newinformation that's going to be
(31:12):
engraved in the brain where it'slike okay, for the fast 20
minutes I've stared at the snakeand nothing has happened, so I
can now move on to move on andfeel as though, well, maybe it
is safe to to be around thesnake it's.
Maybe it's not every snake thatI see is going to bite me and
kill me.
But throughout that process,yes, we have to inform people
(31:32):
and let them know that it mightbe something that's gonna rev up
your engine, get your heartrate going, restoration rate
going, and then people that dothis kind of work might have to
have a longer session, becausethen at the end you have to kind
of bring them back to baselineright, bring them back to
balance right.
So, yeah, you have to prep them.
Yeah, you have to.
That's the first thing.
MyongAhn Sunim (31:52):
And again, this is a you know, zen meditation
techniques, breathing techniques, breathing techniques.
Right, we have somatictherapies where you use your
body to trigger, to circumvent,if you will, almost a nervous
system response.
And we do so much Zen work interms of meditation and
(32:18):
breathing exercise and things ofthat nature.
When you consider thefundamental Buddhist teachings
of the Four Noble Truths, lifeis filled with suffering.
Suffering is from the time ofbirth to the time of death, and
(32:39):
death is not an escape or we'rereborn over and over again.
And it's caused by X, y and Z.
It's pretty pessimistic.
And when we look at thisreality, we need meditation
practice.
The meditation practice is thecoping mechanism for coping with
realities of life.
We are going to face therealities of life.
(32:59):
We are going to face the truthof what life is, not our
imagined fairy tale, and thisisn't to say that there isn't
joy and beauty in life.
It appears pessimistic, butit's things that have been
avoided and things we don't liketo think about, you know.
(33:20):
And so what we are living in isa constant state of
perpetuating of our ignoranceand deception and self deception
and delusion, et cetera.
So meditation practices arekind of it's the exposure.
It's the exposure therapy oflife.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (33:34):
There's your crisis.
MyongAhn Sunim (33:35):
There's your trauma.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (33:36):
Delving right into the heart of things.
MyongAhn Sunim (33:38):
Yes, things are going to happen, happen.
Here is your coping mechanism,here's your coping technique do
your breathing, you do yourmeditation, your things, and
then, when life happens, usethem and and frequently what
what happens is people come tomeditation and they sit down and
they kind of misunderstandmaybe that point needs to be
(34:01):
pointed out is your meditationpractice is not so much
depending on the level, but notso much for your time on the
cushion, but as more so for thetime off the cushion, when life
presents its hardships, whenthere's difficulties.
That's when you cash in yourmeditation practice.
100 I have uh, I have a uh, Ihave a a poem.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (34:30):
If, if, um, if the audience, uh, would,
would the audience I'm gonnaspeak on behalf of the audience
and say go for it okay, so it itspeaks to the thing.
MyongAhn Sunim (34:41):
I've written this uh again very long time ago
, but it's uh, it speaks to thetopic, and so I I was reminded
my favorite one was the beast oftime.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (34:53):
It's that one time.
No, this is called reanimation.
Another day then yes,reanimation.
MyongAhn Sunim (34:59):
I have kicked in the padlocked gates of the
caracums of my psyche.
I have exhumed the deeply duggraves of my personal angels and
demons.
None that were found were dead,just waiting.
Now my demons and angels danceon the graves in the ecstatic
(35:23):
orgy of life, and it's sort of.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (35:27):
That's nice.
MyongAhn Sunim (35:28):
It's sort of.
I like that ending it sort ofdoes the Jungian thing right,
and Freud has that same thing.
It's the idea of that which isnot addressed.
Knoweth not the passage of time, kind of situation.
Yes, there are absolutelythings that.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (35:50):
Unresolved grief does not know the passage
of time.
MyongAhn Sunim (35:56):
And this really is true, and this really is true
.
And if the triggers happen, andif that perfect storm happens,
it's almost magical how a thingcould come up from the basement
of that mind.
And so, on the account of that,let's speak a little bit to the
(36:19):
question is there a way totrain the subconscious mind and
we won't be discussingManchurian candidates and the
subconscious and the subliminaltrigger words and things, which
is a you know, interestinglyenough, my aunt, post-second
(36:45):
World War, got a dog.
I've never met the dog, but Iwas told the stories of it.
A beautiful German shepherd,but it was trained by Nazis and
it was specifically trained toattack children.
Horrid as it may be and it wasit had a trigger word right and
(37:11):
and it's.
It is kind of informationdeposited into the unconscious
mind and then you have the keythat unlocks and makes this it.
It's, it's.
It's the same mechanism that atrigger which dredges up from
the basement of the mind thetraumatizing experience right so
(37:33):
it's the same mechanism.
So we know that this principleof training the subconscious, if
you will and we're going to getinto that in a bit is and has
been exploited.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (37:47):
Sure.
MyongAhn Sunim (37:48):
But we always seem to view it in these kind of
means of military applicationsand espionage and things of that
nature, applications and, youknow, espionage and things of
that nature.
But we forget that.
If in fact that is a thing, whycan't we do the same thing for
the good?
Why does it have to be so kindof dark and shady and, you know,
(38:12):
negative in nature, if we can?
And so the way we cannotdirectly train the unconscious
mind, that's so let's get thatout of the way.
The way that it's done is we've, we've, we've broken down the
consciousnesses down to theseventh consciousness.
(38:36):
This is stuff that isaccessible to us.
This is the conscious, awarestate.
Well, awareness is an optionalelement of it, but this is the
consciousness, and theconsciousness is that which
makes impact against ourconscious minds, namely that
which we like or that which wedislike, and the gradient of
(39:02):
that is that which we love orthat which we hate.
But, simply put, that which welike makes impact against our
senses.
We note it.
We notice it.
We make a mental note, tovarying degrees, that which we
hate or dislike same thing itimpacts against us.
That which is sort of meh, asthe kids would call it, it makes
(39:26):
no impact is not stored in thebasement Because it has not made
, it didn't qualify in a sense.
And so what we get in terms ofthis step-by-step process is our
conscious mind interacting withthe world makes.
(39:47):
Now, this is gonna complicatethings a little bit, but the way
that we make decisions aboutwhat we like and dislike is
informed by our karma, right.
So it is informed by our priorstuff in the basement to a large
degree.
But that which we like ordislike, that which we interact,
(40:10):
that which we note and takenote of and ingest into our
conscious mind ingest into ourconscious mind gets then
deposited into what we callhamjangsik, which is now
subdivision of that which wewould call, from the Western
standpoint, the unconscious.
So now we're getting intolayers of the unconscious A room
(40:33):
inside of a building.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (40:35):
Right.
MyongAhn Sunim (40:40):
So it's a kind of lasagna cake type of thing
situation, right, if you wannathink of it in those terms, and
I don't know that there is aparallel in Western psychology
to this element.
I think we have the consciousand then there's unconscious,
and it's this duality and theinteraction of those two, but,
from the Zen perspective, thethings that make their way into
(41:03):
the Hamjangsik.
Hamjangsik then depositsfurther, deeper into Muishik,
right?
So these terms are not of anyreally you know, importance,
because they're still sometimesthey go by different names.
So, but the point is that thereare layers and we have.
(41:26):
So the way to train yoursubconscious, as the listener
kind of said.
Is there a way to train thesubconscious mind?
The answer is not directly.
So how then do we in fact trainthe subconscious mind, if you
(41:46):
will?
Well, the things that we do,like I said, are deposited into
this first sublayer.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (41:55):
The way that we really drive it down deep
into the, the subconscious mind,is by repetition I can see now,
if, if the action or the skillin which you want to get deeper
into your basement, let's say orto into your own conscious,
(42:15):
like a nail, then I'd sayrepetition is the what Hammering
of that nail getting it deeperand deeper and deeper in there.
MyongAhn Sunim (42:24):
Yeah, so that is the way that we drive it deeper
into the unconscious mind, viarepetition.
This is the way to train theunconscious mind.
We drain it into the point ofwhat we then call habit, the
habitual behaviors, et cetera,et cetera.
Those can be trained byrepetition.
And so now we have thisinteraction of conscious mind
(42:47):
making the conscious effort andthe conscious decision to want
to somehow train ourselves,alter maybe our perspective,
whatever may be.
What do you do?
You then have to create foryourself a what perhaps a
psychologist would call atherapeutic goal or therapeutic.
(43:07):
Uh yeah, what do you call that?
Dr. Ruben Lambert (43:14):
again description oh yes, description.
MyongAhn Sunim (43:17):
You know, and, and so you, if you want to train
your subconscious, as thequestion is, this is what you do
.
You make a plan and that planyou love the podcast.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (43:31):
sorry, just practicing my hypnotherapy
skills Very good.
MyongAhn Sunim (43:36):
So you make a plan and you have to.
You know, we know these certainthings In Zen, we have these
numbers.
You know when you pray, orwhatever.
Three, seven, right, 21.
And psychology talks about 21days needed to start a habit,
right to start a habit.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (43:54):
To then solidify it, 90 to solidify or
100, you could say so this ishow we train our unconscious
mind.
MyongAhn Sunim (44:01):
if you will, you make a conscious decision about
it.
There's no training theunconscious mind directly.
It's unconscious right, Right.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (44:10):
The doorway is your conscious mind.
MyongAhn Sunim (44:11):
You start with your conscious mind, you make
the decision.
You make for yourself a plan, aschedule of whatever it is that
you're trying to and this istrue with anything we think of
only like exercise and eating,but no psychological patterns of
behavior.
If you want to detox from yoursevere addiction to phone or
(44:34):
gaming or whatever it may be,you make a plan.
You stick to that plan as if itwas the holy word of God, and
it is because you created it.
You're the God of this, andwe've talked about this in prior
episode, the need for, when wetalked about self-love, I
(44:54):
believe I had mentionedrespecting oneself.
You respect yourself in a waythat, if we think of our
teachers, or our you know thedisciple-master relationship, or
our schools or our parents, yourespect them and so you adhere
(45:16):
to their directions out ofrespect hopefully it's not out
of fear.
Right, respect and fear aredifferent.
Frankly, they're confused.
But so you, you, you honor that.
You respect their, their, theirwillingness and and their
direction to improve your life,whatever, whatever.
And it's in the same way whenyou make yourself a plan and you
(45:37):
make yourself a goal, yourespect it the way you would
respect it from whatever highestauthority in your life that you
can imagine.
There be.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (45:45):
That's why we say the schedule becomes your
master or your teacher.
Yes, right, yeah.
MyongAhn Sunim (45:51):
And so you do that, you implement it and it
seeps, the way that you kind ofwater plants, you water the soil
.
This is the conscious mind.
The water seeps down into thesoil but then gets uptake by the
(46:15):
root system and then it pumpsup into the crown, into the rest
of the tree or the plant orwhatever it is, and so then it
becomes kind of it comes out ina sense, and this is the pattern
of transforming our unconsciousmind.
Same thing you consciouslywater it, you let for that water
(46:35):
to seep in, get absorbed by theroots of the unconscious mind,
and then that comes up as itdoes.
This osmosis, kind of pumpingof the water from the root
system up into the crown, iswhat happens to us on a
day-to-day basis.
Anyway.
This is how we are informed bythe unconscious mind.
(46:56):
Yes, unbeknownst to us, but weare, it governs us.
How we are informed by theunconscious mind, yes,
unbeknownst to us, but we are,it governs us, but we are.
And then, as jung said, youknow, you, you, you call it fate
, you call it whatever, but it's, it's, uh, whether there's
self-justification that takesplace or just complete ignorance
of why and we see this all thetime with children, but we see
(47:20):
this with adults.
Oh, you shouldn't do that, Iknow I shouldn't do that.
Why did you do it?
I don't know, they don't knowwhy I did it, but I don't know
why.
And when we understand thedynamics, when we understand
these principles, it's helpfulbecause now we can know oh, did
you do it?
Yes, why I wasn't aware of it.
And that absence of awarenessallowed for these things that
(47:44):
dredged up, maybe to inform myactions, to sort of almost an
invasion of my intention.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (48:04):
Yes, and then that prevents you Then this
links back to a prior podcastfrom being able to create
headspace because you didn'tcatch it.
Because you didn't catch it, soyou cannot cleave the
connection, the old tether thatbound you to a reaction that was
fueled by past experiences.
Now you can't see it and cleaveit and then formulate a
(48:29):
different direction or adifferent pathway to go in.
MyongAhn Sunim (48:32):
Yeah, we call that kojong kwanyeom.
Kojong kwanyeom, this kind ofstuckness in a paradigm and a
perspective and a way ofthinking.
And again, we could do this asa self-exercise, be cautious in
(48:58):
selecting from the library ofpast experiences as an informant
of what the action right now isgoing to be.
And again, we have tounderstand the dynamic and the
principle of it is the principleof it is necessary.
If I was bitten by that snakethat you mentioned, then I have
grounds to be cautious about thesnake, right.
(49:19):
But then there's also in one ofthe sutras, the story of a
coiled rope, that a person inthe darkness stumbles upon a
coiled rope and thinks it'ssnake.
And when we have traumas andwhen we have things we are quick
to call a snake everything thatappears like a snake that
(49:45):
appears to be as a snake.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (49:46):
Resembles a snake, and so we have to have
some way for us and we respondto it in the same manner each
time that you would to a snake.
So there's absolutely nofreedom for that individual
who's suffering this kind oftraumatic trigger response.
It is a phantom and traumahaunts in that way.
It's horrible it literallytransforms a memory into a
phantom that plagues you andpursues you and grants you no
(50:08):
peace.
It can be something that seepsup to the surface on a
day-to-day basis, whether you'reat work, driving to work or
interacting with a loved one, orgoing to sleep at night yeah,
and it robs, and it robs.
MyongAhn Sunim (50:21):
It's a past that robs you of, I want to say the
future, but it you know if we'regoing to go, zen, pure zen on
this.
The past no longer exists, thefuture doesn't exist yet, right?
So what it does rob you of isthe present moment.
The past has the capacity torob you of the here and now, and
so then we don't allowourselves, or we we're incapable
(50:45):
of experiencing a joy on theaccount of a phantom, of a, of a
uh, I mean, that could be abeautiful necklace or pearl
necklace or what have you thatco coiled rope.
But if you're haunted by theghouls and the ghosts and of
your snake experience, thenyou're going to see it as a
snake and react to it as a snake, and it will steal your present
(51:09):
and, of course, it will alsoprevent you from forward
movement.
So if you imagine that I'mgoing to go and there's going to
be snakes, for more movement.
So if you imagine that I'm goingto go and there's going to be
snakes, you made an assumptionof it and it robs you of that
also.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (51:23):
So sometimes I give this example when a
person experiences their pastmemories as a trauma, basically
they're breathing life into thatmemory and making it as though
it is an actual, real experiencein the here and now.
There's actually no difference.
A person who, let's say, waspart of 9-11 in New York City
and they experienced the TwinTowers collapsing and they made
(51:47):
an association between high-risetowers and death.
The next time that they see ahigh-rise tower, they will
re-experience that past memoryand their heart rate will go up,
their respiration rate will goup.
They will re-experience thatpast memory and their heart rate
will go up.
Their respiration rate will goup, they'll start to sweat,
they'll go into a panic and afear, as if they were truly
living.
Actually, in their mind,there's no difference at that
(52:07):
very moment between what theylived and what they're living at
that very moment.
And so what oftentimes will workis to go back into those past
memories and transform them sothat you can distance yourself
from them and understand thatmemories are not facts.
Memories are not active at thispresent moment, and I like to
(52:29):
tell people if you can transformthem into a museum because, as
we've said and I've heard, heardyou say this the past is the
museum of your life.
So think about a museum.
If you visit the museum ofnatural history, you can see
dinosaurs and woolly mammothsand snakes and any animal that
is fearful.
You can go back, you can touchit, you can examine it.
They're not going to get youuntil you're able to transform
(52:52):
that traumatic experience intojust a past memory that is no
longer alive at this presentmoment.
It is very difficult and evendangerous for a person with
trauma to go back there, becausethey relive it yeah yeah and
then.
MyongAhn Sunim (53:10):
So that's, that's our summarize, maybe our
our episode today.
Yes, you can deposit thingsinto your subconscious or your
unconscious mind.
You do so through consciouseffort and sustained effort and
practice and in that way you canchange that.
(53:35):
This is the See, there's theelement in in zen psychology.
You cannot erase your karma ofthe past, but what you can do is
you could cover it up with new.
And this is where the emphasison that sort of beginner's mind
or clear your mind or all thosecliche terms are pointing to is
(54:01):
the fact that we are here rightnow and in the here, right now,
we have the opportunity torewrite as we're going forward,
but you're not rewriting thepast, but you're not rewriting
the past.
You're writing into the presentmoment, which then gets
deposited into your past.
Right, as opposed to sort ofthis rowing like the rowboat
(54:26):
idea.
Right, you're looking backwards, you're rowing to propel
yourself forwards, but you can'tsee where you're going, kind of
thing.
Get a kayak, turn it around.
You could look forward, youknow, and not necessarily,
because forward is the momentumof life, this is the stream
(54:47):
flows forward and, of course,there's a balance.
There's so much more that wecould talk about, so many
nuanced elements of this topicthat I hope our audience
understands that we could onlyget so much done even though the
beep already has gone.
Yeah, so thank you, those ofyou who are listening, thank you
(55:14):
those of you who are suggestingthese topics.
It in fact makes our lifeeasier In a sense.
We don't have to come up with atopic and and again it.
There's a sense of interactionalmost I don't know who this
particular listener is, thatthat presented this question.
We thank you for it.
(55:35):
We hope that we were able toshed some light on it.
Sometimes our perspectives aregoing to vary differently, not
necessarily that Dr Lambert is aDr Lambert, but is also a
Musang Sinim, and so sometimes Ipush him to present a
(55:55):
psychological perspective as thedoctor.
From that point of view,obviously his understanding, his
training is in these two worlds.
But we kind of play aShakespearean thing up here to a
certain degree.
He speaks from thepsychological element and I
speak from the Zen, but there'soverlaps and I speak from the
(56:17):
Zen, but there's overlaps.
The point being is there'salways so much more that we
could talk about these topics.
We thank you for all of them.
Until then, take care ofyourselves and each other.
Dr. Ruben Lambert (56:31):
Thank you, please subscribe and like and if
you like what you hear, makesure you pass it on to somebody
else so that they can enjoy ourwonderful podcast also.
And you can follow me for morepositive information on
psychology wellness and stressmanagement.
You can follow me on instagramat wisdom spring wellness or you
can find me on youtube atwisdom spring wellness also.
(56:51):
Thank you very much.
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