How to support sensitive & complex dogs that struggle in everyday situations with Jay Gurden

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered byYappily, the podcast for dog lovers
who want to better understand andconnect with their four-legged friends.
I'm your host Nathan Dunlevy, andtoday we are talking about something
incredibly important, how tosupport complex and sensitive dog.
My guest is Jay Gurden, a leadingexpert in dog behaviour, trust-based

(00:26):
training and guardianship.
Jay is the founder of Good Guardianshipand the author of Building the
Bond, living in Harmony with yourdog, a bo, a book that focuses on
understanding a strengthening the human.
Dog relationship.
In this episode, we'll explore what makessome dogs more sensitive, the challenges

(00:46):
their guardians face, and how we canhelp them feel safer and more confident.
If you've ever felt like your dogstruggles more than others, this
episode is full of great insight,reassurance, and practical advice.
So grab a cup of tea, settlein, and let's get started.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Welcome back to The Yappy (01:05):
undefined
Hour, powered by Yappily.
I'm your host, Nathan Dunlevy, andI'm so excited to bring you another
episode of The Yappy Hour Today.
Today's guest is JayGurden, as I said, Gurden,

Jay Gurden (01:20):
you.
I, I get that all

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (01:21):
Gurden.
And oh my God, I was meant to askyou that before we even started
recording, and I didn't, and thenI've just spoke to myself, shit.
I've not asked her how, if I'mgonna pronounce her surname right.
So Jay Gurden with a, with a U.
I'm so excited to have Jay with us.
She's a colleague of mine as well.

(01:42):
We hang out in some similar groups andadmins and similar groups in the world
of Facebook and yeah, I'm so excitedto have a chat to her this evening.
Right.
Without further ado, Jay,welcome to the Yappy Hour.
As I said, I'm so excitedto chat with you today.
How are you doing?

Jay Gurden (02:01):
Hi.
I think I'm really,really pleased to be here.
Really excited that youasked me to come on.

Yay.
We've got, we've got overthe microphone thing.
'cause I did have a silver microphoneand you sort of, you know, you took the
mick a little bit, but I've managed,

Jay Gurden (02:13):
the silver one up there.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I know loads of people. (02:16):
undefined
It was all the, it was like innuendo,bingo going on when I posted a picture
of myself on this big silver microphone.
But I've gone for the black version.
I don't even know if that's evenbetter or not, but Hey, hey.
Great.
So glad you're okay.
So Jay, for those who might not befamiliar with your work, can you tell
us a little bit about good guardianship?
What led you to focus on complexand sensitive dogs, please?

Jay Gurden (02:40):
Yeah, I mean the, the concept behind good guardianship, it's,
it's really about helping people andtheir dogs to just have the best and
strongest relationship they possibly can.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (02:51):
those of us who have spent time learning about dogs, we have that
fantastic relationship that we buildwith our dogs, and I just wanna help
as many people as possible to do that.
That, that

Yeah,

Jay Gurden (03:03):
heart of what I do.
With my little side shoot, obviouslyof the complex dogs which is, it
is a love, well, I say it's a love.
I don't think any of us who live withthese dogs really love everything
about it, but these dogs andtheir people is definitely a love.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, definitely. (03:20):
undefined
And we are trying to get awayfrom the word reactive and
inverted comm, aren't we?
So we're using sort of words nowbecause reactive is such a broad term
and I hate it because there's tons ofreasons why a dog could be reactive.
So, you know, we're going withsort of complex, sensitive, I
even heard spicy the other day.
I love spicy.

Jay Gurden (03:40):
I love that.
And Andy Hale uses the termsocially sensitive, which I think
just sums it up so brilliantly.
I do use the word reactive sometimes,but it's purely because that's
the word that people tend to know.

Exactly.
Yes.

Jay Gurden (03:56):
once they've sort of found me, then I can start to say, well,
actually, that that's not quite right.
It's a labor and it's notquite what's going on here.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (04:05):
And.

So what led you to set up your business then?
Because you've got colleagues andyou've worked with colleagues.
I know that.
So what, how did tell ourlisteners how you came, how it
all sort of came together then?

Jay Gurden (04:17):
Well, my relationship with Do Re I grew up on a farm
and in my teen years started withworking She Dogs with Border Collies.
The farm has now gone, but theborder Collies have remained
and it was for my sins.
It was one particular one of these dogswho, you know, he came to us as a puppy,

(04:42):
like, you know, many dogs before andthings just didn't go quite the same way.

Hmm.

Jay Gurden (04:49):
There were things

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (04:51):
with and at that point I didn't know enough about those
issues to be able to help him.
So I was kind of, I was where a lotof people are now when they realize
something's wrong with their dog.
But I was fortunate that I had theluxury of being able to go and I turned
myself into like a full-time dog student.

(05:11):
I spent a

Mm.

Jay Gurden (05:12):
of years where all I did was learn about dogs.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, really? (05:15):
undefined
Okay.
Oh, brilliant.
Yeah, because you, yeah, you nowtutor and you, you write books and all
sorts now, so we can talk about that.

Jay Gurden (05:23):
stumbled on the Kine Reactive behaviour course at Kine Principles.
A friend of

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes, yes, that's right. (05:28):
undefined

Jay Gurden (05:30):
it just in a strange sort of circle, I now
tutor that course, which, yeah.
That, that actually was afantastic moment for me when I
was asked to tutor that course.
And it's like,

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (05:41):
you know?

Yeah.
That's amazing.
I love that.

Jay Gurden (05:44):
and it, it's, the tutoring also has kind of helped
me to broaden out with trying to,to help people sort of on my own,
I'd call, you know, I am a behaviourconsultant, but I don't necessarily
work in quite the same way as a lot.

(06:05):
a

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, okay. (06:05):
undefined

Jay Gurden (06:06):
sort of the education and just.
It's, it's just that understanding.

Yes.
Yeah, and that's good.
I think it's important.
I'm really big on education and,you know, under, you know, helping
people understand because youdon't know what you don't know.
So if there's someone there thatcan help, you know, with that.
That's great.
So we mentioned about your books.
You are an author you've written severalbooks on building relationships with dogs.
What inspired you to shareyour knowledge through writing?

Jay Gurden (06:34):
initially, well, the very first book that I
wrote was one on Reactive Dogs.
It's called the ReactiveDog Guardians Handbook.
Still triggers alongand cells now sometimes.
And

Okay.
It.

Jay Gurden (06:44):
that because, I mean, this was back before I started.
I think I just startedwith the tutoring then.
And I hadn't writing, I had a blogand my writing was sort of tending
along the lines of working withthese sensitive dogs, but I wasn't
so focused on working with them.
As a professional at that point.

(07:05):
And what I found was there was a lotof advice on how to work with these
dogs and, you know, with the counterconditional desensitization and so on.
there was almost nothing forthe human end of the lead.
This was just before JanetFinley's book came out, your

Yes.
Yeah, I've got that one.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (07:22):
you know, hers and mine came out at a similar sort of time.
Hers was much better.
I've got a lot betterremitting since then.

Ah.

Jay Gurden (07:30):
But before that, there really wasn't anything much for the people.
So you have these poor people who thingsare going wrong with their dogs, and it's

Mm

Jay Gurden (07:39):
hard to be that person on the end of that lead,

mm.

Jay Gurden (07:42):
wasn't the support there for them.
So I just wanted to writesomething just sort of to let
people know you are not alone,

Yes.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (07:50):
okay to have these feelings.
It's okay to be sad,it's okay to be angry.
It's okay to grieve the lifethat you are expecting when you
brought a dog into the family.
But there are thingsthat we can do to help.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, definitely. (08:04):
undefined
Yeah.
And you've recently releaseda new book, haven't you?

Jay Gurden (08:10):
Of last

it's in, yes, it's in my Amazon basket.
I'm, I'm barely there to get, I've gotall these, but I've seen yours behind me.
I've now got a bookcase behindme, nowhere near as big as yours.
Got all these books I love, likesupporting other, you know, trainers and
behaviourists and colleagues I work withand yours in my basket, like saved because
I want to get, I'll get your recent songs.
I keep seeing people posting about it andreading it and Andy mentioned it as well.

Jay Gurden (08:34):
He

so you,

Jay Gurden (08:36):
for it for

yes.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
So tell us a little bit, soyou've just released at the end
of last year, building bonds.
I don't wanna

Jay Gurden (08:45):
living in

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, I love that. (08:45):
undefined

Jay Gurden (08:47):
It came out end of September, beginning of October.
So really not very long ago.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (08:53):
it's, it's looking at kind of all of the aspects of our lives with
dogs and what we can do in each of thoseaspects to build a strong relationship.
So it's looking at training.
The focus of the book isn't ontraining, but obviously it is a
big part of our life with dogs.
There's a section on that.
There's play, there's sleep,there's canine emotions,

undefined

Jay Gurden (09:16):
there's so many

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: There's lots. (09:17):
undefined

Jay Gurden (09:19):
yeah, there's a chapter on communication.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (09:23):
it's

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love that. (09:23):
undefined

Jay Gurden (09:24):
I did question my sanity a few times writing it
because it's such a big topic.
It was really hard to organizehow I was going to write it,

I bet.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (09:33):
because everything else I've written before that has been
like focused on a single topic.

Okay.
This is, yeah, lots of different things.

Jay Gurden (09:40):
that it, it's just, okay, it's a single topic.
It's living with

I,

Jay Gurden (09:43):
but

yeah,

Jay Gurden (09:45):
just not that simple, is it?

no.

Jay Gurden (09:47):
many aspects to it.

Yeah.
So what was that number four, number five.

Jay Gurden (09:52):
Number five.

Yeah.
Number six on the wayor plans in the future.

Jay Gurden (09:57):
seven and eight are in various, various stages of,

6, 7, 8.

Jay Gurden (10:02):
nine is also in the planning, but that's a long-term project.
That's gonna take me quite a while.
That one, because,

Wow.

Jay Gurden (10:09):
of dog terminology, so that is,

Okay.

Jay Gurden (10:13):
yeah.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (10:14):
of breaking down dog training and behaviour jargon into slightly

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (10:17):
language so that that one is taking a while.

I think we might have to have a chat offline
'cause I believe you do like a writer'sor an author's mentorship as well.
Did you wanna just tellour listeners about that?

Jay Gurden (10:30):
Yeah.
Basically for anybody who, who wantsto be a do writer it's, we do a monthly
one-to-one session, sort of talkabout your project, go through it.
Yeah, if there are any questions whilewriting, can be emailed or messaged.
I'll proofread, give

okay.

Jay Gurden (10:47):
writing, basically

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (10:50):
first starting your idea through to self-publishing
because all mine is self-published.
So

okay.

Jay Gurden (10:57):
anybody who

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's really interesting. (10:57):
undefined

Jay Gurden (10:59):
then yeah, I run a mental scheme for that.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, we can obviously give your (11:02):
undefined
details at the end of the episodefor various you know, contact points
for people wanting to get your booksand obviously your mentoring scheme.
The only reason I say about thatis because of Mutual said the other
day, Sally Gutridge said that Ishould write a book, and nowhere in
a million years did I, would I eversay that I was ever gonna, that I,

(11:23):
that I don't even think I could do it.
There's no way I could write a book.
And she's like, yes, you could.
You can write a book.
There's a book in you.
You could write a book aboutdog walking or like business
mentoring to do a dog walking.

Jay Gurden (11:32):
I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And I have. (11:33):
undefined

Jay Gurden (11:34):
that Sally is responsible for my first one because I made the mistake
of saying to Sally one day, oh, I think Icould write a book, and she said, do it.
And then I said, I'm not going to.
She said, yes, you are.
So,

Yeah, I knew she was responsible for you.
So like, I thought I just, she sowedthe seed with me now, the little m and
she said oh, you know, you could do it.
And I was like, never in amillion years did I ever, wow.
Do I ever want to write a, but, but maybeone day there's, there's something there
that, you know, that I could maybe do, butI've got a quite a, an interest in life.
I always feel like I should do like abit of an autobiography or something.

(12:06):
But not only Sally, but I interviewed Dr.
Conor Brady recently and he evensaid to me that I, I, I've got
a book in me and I should write.
So even if,

Jay Gurden (12:14):
book.

of, if Connor, if Connor Brady and Sally
Gutridge just saying it, then maybe it'llhave to go on the plan at some point and
I'll be, I'll be hitting you up for help.

Jay Gurden (12:22):
No Escape now.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No, that's it. (12:24):
undefined
I've committed.
So moving on to our nextsection then, which is great.
So it is all about what makesa dog complex in inverted or
sensitive in inverted commas.
So when we talk about complex or sensitivedog, j what does that actually mean?

Jay Gurden (12:42):
It, it kind of ties back to that label of reactive,
because the easiest way to describethese dog dogs is they tend to be
the ones they overreact to things.

Mm

Jay Gurden (12:51):
So it doesn't matter whether these things bother us, whether
we think they're scary, the problemis that the dog is bothered by them.

mm Yeah.

Jay Gurden (13:02):
on exactly what's going on, what's caused it, the
reactions can be kind of different.
I mean, the, the stereotypical thingthat we tend to think of is the barking
and lunging, you know, the sort of bigloud, very big feelings coming out, but
it starts much more subtly than that.
And.
Part of my passion is tryingto help people to understand.

(13:23):
I saw a great, great quote the other dayof listening to your dog when they whisper
rather than when they have to shout.
And I love that.

that.
Absolutely love that.

Jay Gurden (13:33):
just sums it up because when you can

It does.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (13:38):
need to shout out.

Because they give us so many signs, don't they?
And if we sort of, if people like, likewhat we go back to about education, if we
understood and we read the dog in frontof us, learn a bit more about canine
body language, they give us so many likeindications and like they give us so
many warnings or so many, like ways oftelling us before they get to the point
where they're having to bark all that.

(14:00):
And it could be so subtle, but if wejust took time to understand that.

Jay Gurden (14:04):
Yeah.
And also the fact that it'sslightly different for every dog.

Exactly.
Got yes.

Jay Gurden (14:11):
my, my lad Finn, love him to bit, he's the
most gorgeous blue male Holly.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (14:18):
he's a lot better now than he was.
He used to be quite challenging.
He's reactive to people, dogs.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: This the one you had to (14:25):
undefined
introduce to your other dog?
Because you've got two, ain't you?
So when I first met you, you wereinto, there was like an introduction
period or something, is that right?

Jay Gurden (14:34):
my, my

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (14:35):
came along as a little puffy and there was a lot of very,
very careful management with playpens.
And we actually fenced offa section of the Gurdens.
She could run up and down the fence,one side and him and the other.

Oh wow.

Jay Gurden (14:47):
we didn't need that much earlier than we did because she just
sort of came around the fence, bopped himon the nose and off they went playing.
But yet, because of the way heis we decided that a pucky was
gonna be far easier for him to beintroduced to because, you know,
there's obviously not a threat there.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: it's like a blank canvas, isn't it? (15:04):
undefined
Of a puppy, hopefully.

Jay Gurden (15:07):
You've hit on one of my pet hates there.
I hate that saying.

Oh dear.
Oh.

Jay Gurden (15:12):
Yes.
Well, no, because it actually leads ontoa really good point of what actually
causes these in the first place.
And it goes right back to genetics.
Genetics can play a

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (15:26):
So you know, this, this happens like at conception,
so you'd hope that the puppy isas blank accounts as possible, but
you always have to remember there'selements there that can be an issue.

Yeah.
Like you say, from genetics andhereditary traits and stuff and the,
you know, the dog, the, you know,what the dog's bed for and stuff.

Jay Gurden (15:48):
Finn is, he's a really good example because he's like,
if you take all of the things thatwe know can cause doc a doctor to
have issues, he's got all of them

Okay.

Jay Gurden (15:58):
because his mum was nervous.

Right.

Jay Gurden (16:02):
didn't think anything of that at the time because, you
know, we'd been round dogs thatweren't that keen on people.
No, she was nervous.
Then when we got him home, he was unwellduring his socialization period and we
weren't able to take him out and about.
And then when he got better andwe started taking him back out
into the world, he got attacked.

(16:23):
So

yeah.

Jay Gurden (16:25):
about five months old then when, when he was yeah, big mastiff bit
him and it kind of, it went from there.
It, it

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (16:34):
three months for it really to come out.
And that is something elsethat could make it complicated.
There can be so much time between eventand the reaction's starting to come out.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, yeah, (16:44):
undefined

Jay Gurden (16:46):
can be really, really hard to make that connection.
now

yeah.

Jay Gurden (16:49):
I know everything that wasn't ideal from the start and
the things that I didn't do quiteright and, you know, all the things

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (16:57):
differently with Rogue, my young dog.

Yeah.
But I, I love how you you know, I'm allabout setting the dog up for success.
So, and being your dog superhero,and that's what you've done for Finn.
You've advocated for him and you'vebeen his superhero because you've
put all this control and managementin place, you know, to, for him
and for the, the, the new puppy.
And that's really important, isn't there?

Jay Gurden (17:19):
take a lot of management.
I mean, they're, they'reabsolutely fine now.
She's, she's nearly two now, so

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (17:25):
a while.
We did

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (17:27):
a time before, a couple of years before RO came along
where we tried to introduce anotherpuppy and it just didn't work.
And we

undefined

Jay Gurden (17:33):
the puppy had to go back to his breeder because fin wasn't ready.

undefined
Right.

Jay Gurden (17:39):
point.
He needed

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Fair enough. (17:40):
undefined

Jay Gurden (17:41):
settle in himself.
So a couple of years RO came along andyeah, they're, they're getting well.

Yeah.
But good for you for acknowledgingthat though, and obviously saying
that it wasn't the right times.
The puppy went back to the breeder.
That's, that's really amazing.

Jay Gurden (17:54):
it was awful.
'cause he was here for fourdays and he was just the most
gorgeous, confident little dog.
And that was the problem.
was too
And in your face of Finn was rogue.
When I went to see her in her litter,there were three puppies and one puppy
came and bounced all over the fence.
You know, come on, lookat me, come and fuss me.

(18:15):
Another

yeah.

Jay Gurden (18:16):
hid behind the kennel.
And I, my first thoughtwas, I'm not having you.
I've got one complicated dog.
I don't need another one right now.
And then there was this little dog, shewas the smallest puppy of the three, and
she just sat in the middle of the penand she looked me up and down, and then

Mm.

Jay Gurden (18:30):
me.
And that's just her attitude to life.
Is she, she's a thinker.
She thinks about things so she's not fullon and in your face, which is exactly

Okay.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (18:42):
she, she will, she'll go in and try and, and.
Instigate play.
She sort of goes in with all the teethwaving round playfully and, and dabs
in with a paw, and then he does it andhe's about three times the size of us.
So

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: How old is Finn now? (18:54):
undefined

Jay Gurden (18:55):
Finn is eight?

Right.
Okay.
It's a bit of a age difference, isn't it?
Yeah.
He is getting into senior years.

Jay Gurden (19:01):
She's two in a couple weeks.
So we didn't

Oh.
But it kind of keeps him young a bit.

Jay Gurden (19:07):
long

probably keeps him young a bit, doesn't it?

Jay Gurden (19:09):
because he had the problems with other dogs.
I mean, we did have another dog when wegot him, but Red was 12 when Finn came
along, and he really wasn't interestedin all these puppy shenanigans.
So Finn had kind of forgotten how to play

Right.

Jay Gurden (19:26):
You know, playing with people is fine.
He, he didn't know howto play with other dogs.
And he's actually, I mean, it looksand sounds terrifying because there's
growling and teeth all over theplace, but that's just how they play.
They love it.

Yes.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (19:37):
we just

Good.

Jay Gurden (19:38):
be guided by her.
If she keeps getting up andgoing back for more, it's fine.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (19:44):
But yeah, it takes a lot of management with one of these dogs.

Yeah.
Oh, okay.
And what I love as well, I meant tosay earlier, is that everyone I seem
to speak to, they all get into theprofession or the industry because of
their own sort of dog that they've,

Jay Gurden (19:58):
Yeah.

wanna say like, have issues with, but like,
well, it is because a lot of it, a lotof the time is because they're, the dogs
sort of, you know, going through stuff.
And then that's made the owner,the pet parent sort of then learn
more, and then they then decidedto get into it as a, as a a career.
You know, I've got my own essay dog.
He's got like chronic back pain, so thenhe's sort of resource guards and he's

(20:21):
reactive and he's blessing, he's got essayand stuff and like, you know, outta seven,
I haven't done too bad that it's got onethat's got his, you know, got his quacks
as I like to call it, is a special boy.

Jay Gurden (20:31):
I tend

But

Jay Gurden (20:32):
you know, the, these dogs have actually led us.
They've needed us to learn something.

yeah.

Jay Gurden (20:39):
we've

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (20:39):
that and sort of discovered that other people
need help with those things.
So that's kind of how we go.

why I, that's why I specialized in sa in
the end, in in lockdown because mydog walking business had to close.
And I then retrained as a, a dog train andliterally did as many courses as I could.
And I then specialized in SAand then I thought, well, you
know, it helps me understand himmore, but then I can help others.
And there was like, thisbig boom wasn't then

Jay Gurden (21:02):
Yeah,

with people going back to work and stuff.
So, you know, I do love the SC work, but

Jay Gurden (21:06):
boom with the learning too.
'cause I was tutoringthrough lockdown and the,

yeah,

Jay Gurden (21:11):
it was like, it

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: everyone's just, (21:11):
undefined

Jay Gurden (21:12):
regular levels of as assessments and all
of a sudden up it went.
'cause everyone had time.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, they did. (21:17):
undefined
Everyone was at home or Yeah.
More time to learn.
But that's good.
I'm glad that people were learningstuff 'cause that's what we need.
So our next question, we have touchedon it a little bit, but these traits
is it something a dog is born withor do they develop it over time?

Jay Gurden (21:33):
some and some.
Obviously genetics the dog is born with

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (21:38):
Also, you have epigenetics that comes into play, which is where, you
know, there are things that can affectgene expression, turn genes on and off.
And if you have a mom who isstressed throughout a whole
pregnancy, that can have

Mm.

Jay Gurden (21:51):
on the puppies before they're even born.
But there are also areasthat aren't set in stone.
Obviously the, the big thingis like puppy socialization, so
getting them used to the world.
And also a lot of people havea misunderstanding of what
socialization actually is.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, I know. (22:10):
undefined

Jay Gurden (22:12):
many people who think that it's, you know, it's going a meeting and
interacting with everybody and every dog.
And in actual fact a lot of the timewith puppies and letting them watch
quietly from a distance and get

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (22:23):
to things, it, it is a better way to start.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (22:28):
Then we also have a.
The dogs who have bad experiences.
So the ones who are attacked

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Former, there's kind of sticks of him. (22:34):
undefined

Jay Gurden (22:37):
that's, then you end up with what we call like single event
or one trial learning where one badexperience, if it's severe enough,
can stay with that dog for life.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm mm It's a shame, isn't it? (22:46):
undefined

Jay Gurden (22:50):
And

Mm.

Jay Gurden (22:50):
also an aspect sometimes of, we know that
dogs, dogs are social animals.
They do social learning sothey can learn from others.
again, going

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (23:00):
as an example, because Finn has these issues of things that he's
worried with, we made sure that althoughthey both go out for a walk when it
was early in the morning and there wasnothing for Finn to worry about, about
in the day times where there were wouldbe people, dogs, cars, other animals
about that I would take Roget on her own.
So she got to

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (23:19):
these things without worrying about her seeing fin reacting and worrying

Mm

Jay Gurden (23:24):
she should worry about.

mm.

Jay Gurden (23:26):
that is a, that's kind of a slightly lesser element, but it
is something just to keep in mind,

Yeah.
Okay.
Brilliant.
So how can pet parents recognize ifthey have a sensitive or complex dog?

Jay Gurden (23:42):
it comes back to what we were talking about
earlier on with body language.

Yes.
Big in it.

Jay Gurden (23:47):
it's taking the time to learn the signs of stress and importantly,
learn what they look like in your dog.
So

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (23:56):
what your dog looks like at home, when they're relaxed
and happy, what they look like whenthey're excited and playing, and
starting to see the signs of whenthey're not comfortable with something.

Mm,

Jay Gurden (24:07):
Because especially in the early stages, they will tell us a long
time before it gets to the reacting stage.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (24:15):
If those signs don't work, they can start to not show those
anymore because they've not got them.
The, the, again, going back to AndyHale, he talked about the relief.
safety and

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (24:26):
from the stress.

Mm.

Jay Gurden (24:28):
level of signals haven't got the dog that relief.
So

Mm,

Jay Gurden (24:32):
something else that you see a lot of the time is dogs do what works.
that

yes.

Jay Gurden (24:38):
works when it comes to stress.
You know, if a dog is in asituation, they don't feel safe.
And that's essentially what it is.
This, this dog does not feel safe.

Mm

Jay Gurden (24:46):
they need

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (24:48):
they need to get away from that thing and they will
do what gets 'em that distance.
So

Yes.

Jay Gurden (24:54):
you know, whether that is, that their, their guardian
will listen when they start toshow these more subtle signs, or

Mm.

Jay Gurden (25:02):
else fails the lunging and barking, that's pretty much guaranteed
because we all then, you know, sort ofget hold of them and, and drag them away.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And this is the thing, isn't it? (25:10):
undefined
It's those subtle signs likewe lip licking, yawning.
People recognize like the,the vocalization with the
barking and the, the lunge.
But these subtle signs that you may,you may miss, you may blink and miss it.
It's all those little things, isn't it?
That can, that's leading up to it.

Jay Gurden (25:27):
But with Finn, he will get very fixated.
He gets very vigilant

Mm.
Hypervigilance.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (25:34):
a lot of it depends on your dog.
He, is very, very food oriented.
He has the most food

Mm,

Jay Gurden (25:41):
Collie I've ever met.
He thinks he's a Labrador and a fat one.

love it.

Jay Gurden (25:46):
So yeah, he, he would eat 24 hours a day if he could.
So for him not to be able to take foodis a clear sign that he's stressed.
But it

Okay.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (25:56):
than that.
If he's starting to worry aboutsomething but still isn't at a
point where he has to overtly react,he will start to snatch treats.

Hmm.
Interesting.

Jay Gurden (26:07):
to what his inner level is.
If he starts to

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (26:11):
need more distance.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (26:14):
But

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (26:15):
really, really different to a lot of of sensitive dogs because
often see the advice of, you know,don't ask them to sit, whereas
he will sit and watch something.
That's just

Okay.

Jay Gurden (26:26):
it.
And

Mm.

Jay Gurden (26:28):
your own dog, their communication, their preferences,
their needs is central.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, that's what I was gonna (26:35):
undefined
say is that obviously you'vegotta work with a dog in front.
'cause every dog in breed'sdifferent, aren't they?
So what your dog does is probablydifferent to my toy poodle or

Jay Gurden (26:44):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: know, you've gotta learn. (26:44):
undefined

Jay Gurden (26:45):
border colleagues.
We actually, we had mother and daughter atone point, and you could not have got two

Oh

Jay Gurden (26:50):
dogs.

yeah.

Jay Gurden (26:51):
was really intelligent, didn't really care about people.
Daughter loved people, not twobrain cells to rub together.
She was the sweetest littledog, but she just, there were
she had an original thought in her life.
Bless her.

yeah.

Jay Gurden (27:06):
dog for closeup work.
'cause she just did whateveryou asked her to, but

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (27:11):
that required her to think.
She wasn't so hot on that.
Bless her.

Yeah.
Yeah, I've got a mother and daughterbut they're quite similar actually.
It's interesting.
But and also talking about likethis ladder of aggression and this
escalation pyramid, that's some of thesigns, like the, the lip licking, the
blinking and you know, it can go up andup and then it gets to like a growl.
But we often hear about sortof over arousal, don't we?

(27:36):
And over threshold.
So that's when the dog can make anegative or positive choice, isn't it?
If they've got to that point.

Jay Gurden (27:42):
Yeah.
I mean, if you think about arousallevels, everything that, we are doing.
Will affect arousal levels.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm, that bucket fill into that. (27:51):
undefined

Jay Gurden (27:53):
yet

Mm.

Jay Gurden (27:54):
is a great way to describe it.
I will often use spoon theory, so,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: heard of spoon theory. (27:59):
undefined
What's that one?

Jay Gurden (28:01):
you start, start the day and you have a certain number of spoons to

undefined

Jay Gurden (28:06):
Okay.
And

Yes.

Jay Gurden (28:08):
maybe getting up, having a shower, getting
dressed, that uses two spoons.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (28:13):
argument with somebody in the street that uses three
spoons and you get to the end ofthe day and you've run out spoons.
So that's, you can, you know,you just can't take anymore, and
that's when you go over threshold.

Yeah.
You blow

Jay Gurden (28:26):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: was hearings too. (28:27):
undefined

Jay Gurden (28:28):
The other way I used to describe it that I, I've
written in my books is to describea, a supermarket shopping trip
where, you know, you have the one

Okay.

Jay Gurden (28:35):
straight to the supermarket, into the carpark, into the shop round.
The shop you are in the queue, someonecuts in front of you and you know, it's a
bit annoying, but you know, no big deal.
Then you

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (28:48):
and you walk out the front door and your car's got a flat tire.
Every traffic

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (28:53):
on the way to the supermarket is red.
You get to the, the car park and the onlyspace left is right over the far side
of the car park next to the idiot whocan't park straight into the supermarket.
And you've got one of thosetrolleys with the wonky wheel.
So as you're going round, you know,your neck hurts, your back hurts.
You just wanna get on, you wanna get done.

(29:14):
And then this person cuts you upin the queue and they turn around
and give you this big SM grin.
And it's

Oh,

Jay Gurden (29:21):
And anybody that looks all of that, it's just gonna say that you
went off out nowhere and it wasn't,it's all those little things building up

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: up to it, isn't it? (29:28):
undefined
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (29:29):
And it's exactly the same with dogs.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Like a volcano erupting. (29:31):
undefined

Jay Gurden (29:34):
Oh, you've, you've seen me supermarket shopping there.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh my God. (29:37):
undefined
I hate supermarket.
I don't go, I make my husband go, so

Jay Gurden (29:41):
I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I can't stand it. (29:42):
undefined

Jay Gurden (29:43):
We get it.

Wow.
We used to do that.
We used to do that, but he got fed upwith a bloody date, so he has to go now.
But he does park as far away as hecan 'cause he's so precious about his
bloody car, so he parks the furs away.

Jay Gurden (29:54):
that

Right.
And the f and the funniest Wow.
Frustrating for him.
Funny thing for me is that be allthese other spaces and then a car
would would've parked right nextto him and he loses his shit.
But yeah, but the point of this is, isthat the dogs can hit their threshold and
then they can sort of react and, you know,go over a threshold and over aroused.

(30:15):
And that's when they thensort of do the barking.
In lung.
It's important to identify the signsthrough your dog before they get to that,

Jay Gurden (30:21):
it's important to
That things that have happened atthe previous couple of days can

Exactly.
It can build up, it takes about 48hours for, well, 70, is it 72 hours?
My mind's gone back forarousal levels to decrease or

Jay Gurden (30:35):
up to 72.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: again, dog dependent. (30:36):
undefined
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (30:40):
Absolutely.

Yeah.
And you could be adding to this bucketand there's still, that's why I like
to say to people, like, if something'shappened the next day, you just need
to have a day off from walking anddo some brain games, sniffy games.
'cause you just need to givethem chance to decompress.

Jay Gurden (30:53):
yeah.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (30:54):
such an important part of the process

undefined

Jay Gurden (30:58):
trying to work on their relationship with the things that
bother them, without that decompression,you're just, you're not giving either
you or them a chance for success.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Well, they can't learn can of when (31:08):
undefined
they're in that heightened stateof arousal and stress and that.

Jay Gurden (31:13):
that's the ability to learn.
Just go.
If you think about it, thisis them in survival mode

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (31:19):
this thing bothers them so much or you know, this, of
these things together have botheredthem so much that they're just in,
they're literally in fight or flight

Yes.

Jay Gurden (31:30):
it, you

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (31:31):
just, they're just trying to survive the situation.
It doesn't matter that in actualfact, it's a bin bag, it's fine.
It's not gonna eat them.
It really can you tell,I used to ride horses.
It really doesn't matter.
Well, in actual fact, therewas one occasion with Finn
where I was walking him.
It's four 30 in the morningand he just stopped one day and
would not walk along the path.

(31:51):
And we actually

Sorry.
Four 30 in the morning.
Fly me.

Jay Gurden (31:54):
that's when I used to walk him, because it was the only
time I could walk him without stress.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (31:58):
But the,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: The things we do for our dogs. (32:01):
undefined

Jay Gurden (32:02):
yeah, definitely.
Especially when it's like November.
That wasn't fun.

Ooh.
Ooh.

Jay Gurden (32:07):
The only way he would go forward was he'd make a big
semicircle and I couldn't workout what on earth was going on.

Mm.

Jay Gurden (32:14):
and looked back, someone had left their bin six
feet away from its normal position.
And because dogs are so contextsensitive, they, they, they see so
much more of their environment thanwe would notice that to him was wrong.
So

Okay.

Jay Gurden (32:30):
was danger

Yeah.
Oh, bless him.

Jay Gurden (32:34):
so bad now.
And if, if Rose says anythinglike that, she just barks at it.

Right.

Jay Gurden (32:39):
She

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: There's no, is is there, is there still (32:39):
undefined
4, 5, 4 30 gis or have you managed to

Jay Gurden (32:44):
No, no,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: get a few lions now? (32:45):
undefined

Jay Gurden (32:46):
will do early walk walks that just 'cause that suits him.
It j

Yeah.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (32:50):
it

And he works nights as well, doesn't he?
So,

Jay Gurden (32:53):
Yeah.
Or you know, like earlystarts so it, it suits

yeah.

Jay Gurden (32:58):
walk early.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's nice. (33:00):
undefined
You'd have to bump into anyone.
I think I prefer it as well.
I just,

Jay Gurden (33:04):
the other thing we do is we, we go to places where there's
just like masses and masses of space.
So, you know, we are quite luckythat it takes us a couple of hours
to get there, but we can actuallygo to Salibury plane and Okay.
You have to occasionally

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, yes, I know. (33:14):
undefined

Jay Gurden (33:16):
which can be interesting when they emerge out
of the grass in front of you.
But know, it's just somewhere withlots of space and really good eye
lines so you can see anybody and ina different direction if you need to.

Yeah,

Jay Gurden (33:27):
a lot, lot better now we can sort of pass somebody like the other
side of the road without too much hassle.
He might

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that's good. (33:32):
undefined

Jay Gurden (33:33):
snort at them, but.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's not, (33:35):
undefined

Jay Gurden (33:36):
Oh, he

it's not

Jay Gurden (33:38):
and

too bad.

Jay Gurden (33:39):
and yeah

so, oh God, I lost my train of thought.
I was gonna say something then.
Right.
Okay.
Let's move on to our nextquestion in this section then.
And so how can pet parents recognize ifthey have a sensitive or complex dog?

Jay Gurden (33:54):
again, we're going back to that body language

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, that's what I was gonna say. (33:56):
undefined
Being a dog detective.
Yes.
Body language.

Jay Gurden (34:01):
yes.
Sarah Fisher came up with that, wasn't it?

Yes.
Yes,

Jay Gurden (34:05):
brilliant.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I think so. (34:06):
undefined

Jay Gurden (34:07):
ace free work for, for Sensitive Dogs is just amazing.
It's absolutely

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (34:12):
and it fits in really well in the decompression stage.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (34:16):
but yeah, that, that's largely what it comes down to.
When you've spent time studying your dogand learning about sort of the language,
you can see like really little subtlesigns like their whiskers flaring.
You know, is is it's likea, an early stage sign that

I've

Jay Gurden (34:34):
checking

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: never even thought of that before. (34:34):
undefined
My God, that's so interesting.

Jay Gurden (34:39):
My, my young girl, she's, she's got sort of very luxurious whiskers.
They're all sort of very brightwhite and she can really see,
'cause the, the basin's dark.
So you can really kind of see whenshe's got them flared forward.

Oh,

Jay Gurden (34:52):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you have to hear about cats having (34:54):
undefined
like quite prominent whiskers.
But I've never thoughtabout my dog's Whiskers.
I'm gonna be looking at 'em now.

Jay Gurden (34:59):
if you think, Joe, we know that one of the early signs of
stress is like tension in the lips.
And then if you also

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (35:06):
of whiskers, it's just, you know, it's like a sensory thing.
It makes sense

Mm.

Jay Gurden (35:12):
kind of out and ready.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (35:14):
So yeah, that, that is, that is is a sign that I'll
use quite often with my guys.
The vigilance thing is a really goodthing to look for if you know, if
they seem to be looking for somethinglistening, staring in, in a direction,

Mm.
Heckers can go out, can't they?
Like pile erection

Jay Gurden (35:33):
yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: and all that sort of stuff? (35:33):
undefined

Jay Gurden (35:35):
yeah.
Which with Rogue is hilarious'cause she can only get them
on her shoulders and her bum.
it.
That's all.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (35:42):
has these

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: These little Tufts. (35:42):
undefined
Yeah.
So it's all about like, I'mreally big on sort of pet parents
and people working with dogs.
You know, just learn understanding,learn canine body language.
Really?

Jay Gurden (35:55):
of the areas I tell people to look at most, because it's one of
the easiest bits to see is the tail.
So if you

Yes.

Jay Gurden (36:01):
naturally carries their tail, so like with my

Mm.

Jay Gurden (36:04):
tend to be down like that, or

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (36:07):
up is when the, like the

Yeah,

Jay Gurden (36:09):
levels are starting to go up.
And with thin, if it goes abovelevel with his back, it's time to

yeah,

Jay Gurden (36:15):
out.

yeah.
I was chatting to my friends that weekend.
They have a rescue from Romanian.
They said that they have towel, literallytucks so far under as far as it can go.
And

Jay Gurden (36:26):
Yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that's a interesting sign. (36:26):
undefined

Jay Gurden (36:28):
yeah,

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (36:29):
it's one of those ones where it's really important to
understand your individual dog.
'cause obviously like, say somethinglike a Whippet or a Greyhound where
they tend to carry their tails very low.
other breeds that couldbe a sign of extreme fear,

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (36:43):
whereas for,

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (36:45):
or whip it, it's their natural position.
But for them it would come almost upand up, touch the tummy underneath.
So

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's right. (36:50):
undefined

Jay Gurden (36:51):
really important to understand your breed or type of dog and your

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (36:57):
And obviously it gets complicated when you have like the dogs
who've had got no tails, whether they're

I was about, I was literally thinking
that, thinking that as we weretalking towels, like do towels.
It's hard, doesn't it?
Mm,

Jay Gurden (37:07):
kind of look at the, the muscles.
the

yes.

Jay Gurden (37:11):
Similar with

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (37:12):
obviously ear movements are much easier to see
in dogs who've got pricked ears.
But if you've got dogs that havelong ears, if you look at the base
of the ear, you can with practice,see how the muscles are moving to
see if they've gone forward or back.
'cause those

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Interesting. (37:24):
undefined

Jay Gurden (37:25):
in in the similar sort of way,

Mm.

Jay Gurden (37:28):
quite so easy to see.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: My chihuahua ears are very (37:30):
undefined
different to my poodle ears.

Jay Gurden (37:33):
Yeah,

You

Jay Gurden (37:35):
yeah.

know, chihuahuas like this and they go round.
And then the poodles obviouslyall long and brilliant.
Moving on to our next section, which isall about challenges and misconceptions
about our sensitive and complex dogs.
Many owners of sensitive orcomplex dogs feel like they're
failing or not doing enough.
What would you say to them in that case?

Jay Gurden (37:58):
Absolutely not.
You know,

Hmm mm

Jay Gurden (38:01):
it's really hard to be the person with one of these dogs.

mm.

Jay Gurden (38:05):
stand there on the end of the lead and have, there's,
there's this expectation in societyof dogs behaving a certain way.
You know, dogs should beable to go everywhere, do

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (38:16):
know, with no trouble at all.
In my life with dogs, I'vehad one dog like that, one dog

Yeah.
I,

Jay Gurden (38:22):
anywhere I've fallen in my un one dog and I'll
probably never have another,

why?
Okay.

Jay Gurden (38:29):
those sorts of dogs are actually really incredibly rare

Mm,

Jay Gurden (38:34):
because there's so, society's understanding of what a dog should be
is not actually the reality of the dog.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I know it's frustrating as well. (38:41):
undefined
Mm.
Do you think since lockdown we, we areseeing more like are we seeing it more
like dogs with sort of, I don't wannasay issues, but dogs with sensitivities?
Dogs that are, yeah.
Dogs in child, that's the word.
I couldn't get my words out.
Are we seeing that moresince lockdown, do you think?

Jay Gurden (39:00):
so.
I mean, obviously there was that hugeboom in people getting dogs in lockdown

Hmm

Jay Gurden (39:06):
and especially puppies who joined their families in lockdown.
They missed out and lot that

hmm.
Yeah.
That key socialization period.

Jay Gurden (39:14):
I mean, you know, those, those first weeks up to
sort of about 12, 13 weeks old are

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's it. (39:17):
undefined
Hmm.

Jay Gurden (39:20):
puppies, you know, even if they were being able to go
out for walks, they weren't seeingas much as they would normally.
So that does make you, some dogs will comethrough that and be relatively unscathed.
dogs will struggle.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (39:36):
And I think possibly also in that time, a lot of,
a lot more first dog parents.

Yeah.
There was a lot.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (39:49):
They maybe would've wanted a dog for a while, but felt like they, they
couldn't because of responsibilities.
Well, you know, we've got all thistime that we are gonna be at home.
We're gonna be working from

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (39:57):
let's, let's have a dog.

And then they didn't realize when they
were starting to return back to theoffice how that dog was gonna cope.

Jay Gurden (40:04):
because I'm sure you probably see that as well in your, your SA

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (40:06):
Yeah.
It, it, you know, the two sortof really tied together with that

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Well, mark and my husband really (40:11):
undefined
blames himself or us because he wasfurloughed for so long in lockdown.
He says that's why Bailey got sa, but youknow, it's obviously genetics as well,
but he's the only one out of the four toysthat have got it, luckily, but you know.

Jay Gurden (40:26):
sometimes it's just hard to pinpoint, you know, I'm, I'm kind, kind
of quite fortunate with Finn in that I canpinpoint the different bits that went into
it, which one of them had the most impact.
way of knowing.

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (40:39):
and, and that is often the case.
I think also, I, I have abone to pick with Disney.
they

undefined

Jay Gurden (40:47):
hot

Disney, they, they got a lot to answer for.
They have.

Jay Gurden (40:51):
But it's just kind of all of these, these, these sort of cartoons
and programs and fictional thingsthat make having a dog seem so easy.
You know?
Oh, having a dog's, no problem.
Anyone can do it.
You know?
It's easy to

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (41:05):
it's not,

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (41:07):
really isn't to just sort of be a responsible dog guardian.
There's a lot to think about and yeah.
And that, that's just with a dog whodoesn't struggle with aspects of life.

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (41:22):
there are a lot of people that don't do that.
'cause we all know thathe's friendly brigade,

Oh God.

Jay Gurden (41:27):
yeah,

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (41:28):
won't go down that route.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: If I had, yeah, I was gonna say, (41:29):
undefined
if I had a, every time I'd hearthat I'd be a million there.

Jay Gurden (41:33):
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (41:36):
not connected to sensitive dogs.
But my sort of funny anecdote withthat was I was out at one point with my
previous dog my uniform dog had him out.
He was on lead 'cause we were walkingthrough this, this sort of busy bit of
bridal path before we got to the field.
And this black Labrador turned up, youknow, running loose, no sign of her

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: As you do. (41:59):
undefined

Jay Gurden (42:00):
And she was getting very excited and sort of jumping around
red and he wasn't taking any notice'cause he just, his thing was, hello.
Okay, I'm gonna go sniff over here.
And it was a good 10 minutes before thisperson turned up and, oh, there you are.

Really?

Jay Gurden (42:16):
aren't you a funny girl?
And

gosh.

Jay Gurden (42:18):
this, this Labrador was trying to almost reverse under my dog.

Oh gosh.

Jay Gurden (42:29):
So I said

Oh.

Jay Gurden (42:30):
woman, probably ought to tell you that my dog is in fact
entire, and she then kicked offat me about how irresponsible I
was to be out with an unrated dog.
He was on the lead.
She had

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh my word. (42:44):
undefined

Jay Gurden (42:45):
absolutely ragingly standing in season bitch out
of her sight for 10 minutes.
But I was the irresponsible one.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: God knows what could have (42:53):
undefined
happened in that 10 minutes.
They can tie and it can be over in 10.

Jay Gurden (42:58):
Fortunately Red had absolutely no idea what it was for.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (43:03):
absolutely not a

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: some people honestly. (43:05):
undefined

Jay Gurden (43:07):
So that's

Oh,

Jay Gurden (43:08):
extreme anecdote of, of the, the sort of the, he's friendly people.

Yeah.
The friendly brigade.
So what would you say are some of thecommon mistakes pet parents make when
trying to help and invite commas?
Their sensitive or complex dog?

Jay Gurden (43:22):
I think one of the most common ones is probably.
Thinking that making them face upto their fears is going to help.
if you think

Hmm.

Jay Gurden (43:30):
it as when you've got humans with phobias, because

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (43:36):
yeah, it's no different to humans with phobias,

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (43:40):
humans with phobias, like say you've got someone who's scared
of spiders, they'll go to one ofthose things where they hold a spider,

Mm,

Jay Gurden (43:48):
therapy, they call it,

yes.
Yes.
Flooding, yes.

Jay Gurden (43:54):
is where

good.

Jay Gurden (43:57):
No, no, it, it is where the situation's just
so overwhelming for the dog.
They literally just become floodedwith stress and they shut down.

Mm.

Jay Gurden (44:04):
these, that can work for humans because we can rationalize
it, we can have someone there talkingus through it, and we can have

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (44:11):
sort of slightly more advanced bit of our brain
going, look it, it's fine.
This, this little thingisn't going to hurt you.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (44:18):
have part of, of the front area of their brain where
rational thinking takes place.

Right.
Why?

Jay Gurden (44:25):
they can't actually reason their way through the situation.
So when you try and get them toface up to their fears, all you're
doing is the flooding and that will

Mm.

Jay Gurden (44:35):
it worse.
So you, you, you, you're doing thingsfor, for the very best of reasons,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, but (44:41):
undefined

Jay Gurden (44:42):
yeah, I've so often

I,

Jay Gurden (44:44):
to people who've tried that and they, they sort of come
to me and say, oh, I feel so bad.
So I say to them, you were doing the bestyou could with what you knew at the time.

yeah,

Jay Gurden (44:53):
something I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: 'cause Yeah. (44:53):
undefined

Jay Gurden (44:54):
so often.

Yeah.
We dunno what we don't dunno.
I think I heard something like before,like you can be scared of spiders and love
chocolate, but if you sat and if they satyou in a room with loads of spiders and
fed you chocolate, it's not gonna makeyou overcome your fear of the spiders.

Jay Gurden (45:07):
it would probably put you off chocolate, wouldn't it?
If if that, actually, that leadsme on nicely to another mistake.
Obviously one of the techniques thatwe'll often use to try and work with
these dolls is counter conditioning.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (45:22):
you use something really, really nice, often high value treats.
So when I say high value, I'm talkinglike bits of hot dog, of ham, cheese,
steak, you know, anything that the

Mm

Jay Gurden (45:33):
really loves.

mm.
The good stuff.

Jay Gurden (45:36):
when they are around their trigger, you use that, you feed them
this high value treat, or you havetheir favorite game that they only
play when the, the trigger is around.
But timing of that is really, reallyimportant because you've got to make
sure that they see the scary thing from a

Mm.

Jay Gurden (45:56):
where they feel safe and then the food comes along.
'cause otherwise what happens is you'refeeding them, they see the scary thing
and that nice steak becomes a predictorof the scary thing coming along.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Well, yes. (46:07):
undefined

Jay Gurden (46:08):
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (46:09):
end up, we call it poisoning

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's it. (46:11):
undefined
Yeah.
Poisoning.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (46:14):
Yeah.

Right?

Jay Gurden (46:15):
becomes a predictor of the bad thing, rather than
doing what you're intending to do.
actually, you know, giving thema pleasant association with the
thing that they're scared of.

Yeah.
So about the timing and like yousay as well how can we reframe the
idea of fixing an inverted commabehaviours to better support these dogs?

Jay Gurden (46:37):
I think a lot of it comes down to, for so many years it was
denied that animals have emotions.

Hmm.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (46:47):
Charles Darwin was talking about emotions in animals.
So you're going back to like the 1870s.
I've got a book on the shelfback there, which the expression
of emotions in animals.
A man.
So he was actually, you know, sort ofback then looking at emotions in animals.
But we've

Mm,

Jay Gurden (47:02):
more research now especially work of the Dog project and Gregory
Burns where they've actually managed totrain dogs to stay still in MRI machines
to have scans run while they're awake.
All done

wow.

Jay Gurden (47:16):
training.
is such, such a great advert for,for using positive reinforcement.

undefined

Jay Gurden (47:23):
able to do scans on these dogs' brains when they're
awake and record the areas of theirbrain that for with certain things.

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (47:33):
used some things that you would think would promote sort
of like emotions, so say sense

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (47:41):
family.
And they actually found that the sameareas activating the dog's brains
is activating the human brains.

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (47:48):
So, you know, we have concrete evidence that dogs have emotions.
They don't necessarily have allof the emotions that we do, but
you know, sort of happy, sad,scared, They can have all of those.

Mm.

Jay Gurden (48:02):
And I think understanding that can help us go a long way to seeing
that what these dogs actually needis us to support them and understand
behaviour doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Mm

Jay Gurden (48:16):
behaviour is communication.

Mm

Jay Gurden (48:20):
when the dog is barking, lunge, and they're telling you that
there is something in that, thatsituation they can't cope with.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (48:28):
So yeah, I, I have a graphic of, it's a tree, and at the
top of the leaves you have behaviour.
The trunk of the tree is emotionand the roots of the tree is need.

Hmm.

Jay Gurden (48:39):
when you can start looking at what your dog needs in that situation, can
understand the emotions they're feelingand why the behaviour is happening.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (48:48):
you can also see what they need to no longer feel.
They need to show that behaviour.
So often with one of thesesensitive dogs, it'll be distance.

Yeah.
Mm.

Jay Gurden (49:01):
So

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (49:03):
I, I have issues with the idea of fixing the dog anyway.

Yeah.
I know.
I hate that term,

Jay Gurden (49:08):
yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: but it's just what you hear. (49:09):
undefined
No.

Jay Gurden (49:12):
we're just looking to help them be more comfortable in their

Yeah.
We're looking to understand them.
Yeah.
And help from what you say.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Let's move on then.
So our next section is building trustand confidence with a sensitive dog.
What are some of the first stepsthat pet parents can take to build
trust with their sensitive dog?

Jay Gurden (49:32):
I think a great time to start reworking on your relationship
is during that com decompression phase.

Mm,

Jay Gurden (49:40):
you know, would say to people that if the day dog
walk is stressing you and your dog

yeah.

Jay Gurden (49:45):
don't do it.
Take a break, have a few days off, andwhat you can do is, 'cause obviously,
you know, you've got to find ways forphysical and mental stimulation for
your dog during that time, so you canstart working on your relationship.
You can do like trick training,you know, anything that involves
you interacting together.
Find games you can play together.

(50:06):
You know, down to thingslike hide and seek.

Yeah,

Jay Gurden (50:10):
sort of have fun and enjoy each

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: just have fun. (50:12):
undefined
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (50:14):
And you can also sort of work on like useful cues when
you go back out into the world.
So my,

Mm.

Jay Gurden (50:19):
useful ones that I rely on a lot are, let's go.
So that's, that's like, you know,we're walking and we pick up pace now

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (50:28):
way, which is the 180 degree

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: like, like (50:29):
undefined

Jay Gurden (50:30):
and

that.

Jay Gurden (50:30):
tail

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (50:31):
of danger.
And also during that time, becauseyou're gonna be spending so much
more time at home with your dogand they're gonna be more relaxed.
So you can really take that timeto see they look, what they do, how
will the different areas of theirbody look when they're relaxed and

Mm.

Jay Gurden (50:49):
And

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (50:50):
because the sooner the, or the more detail you can see of
them being relaxed, the earlieryou'll be able to see when they're
starting to struggle with something.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (51:03):
that,

Good.

Jay Gurden (51:03):
time is really, really valuable.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, I used to say when I was (51:06):
undefined
doing a lot of in-person training,like particularly puppy training,
I was like, have fun with it.
'cause the moment it doesn't become fun,

Jay Gurden (51:14):
yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you are lost. (51:15):
undefined
So

Jay Gurden (51:16):
yeah.
I mean,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you know you have fun. (51:17):
undefined

Jay Gurden (51:18):
my dogs have have learned to do all sorts of DT things like, you
know, I'll hold my hand up and they haveto work out a way to use the furniture
to get, to touch their nose to my hand.
You know, it doesn'thave to have a purpose.
You could just have fun with it.
You know,

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (51:32):
spin, you know, they, they do all these, these things that there's
absolutely no purpose whatsoever,but they enjoy learning it, and I

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (51:41):
with them, so we, we just enjoy it.

It just helps you build that bond and
relationship, doesn't it, as well.

Jay Gurden (51:46):
Yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: How does giving dogs more choice (51:47):
undefined
and agency over their ho, over theirenvironment help them feel safer?

Jay Gurden (51:57):
A lot of it comes down to the communication between dog and person.
So

Hmm.

Jay Gurden (52:01):
if the dog knows that they are going to be able to.
whether they want to do something or not,and their person will listen to them.
They have more trust in theirperson because you know,
they can feel understood.
They can feel listened to.
They know that if they really strugglewith something, they're not happy with
something they will be listened to.

(52:22):
equally, if they want to do something,then they know that their person
will support them to do that.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (52:29):
It's

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (52:31):
really, really great for resilience, and

Right.

Jay Gurden (52:35):
that is so important in these dogs.
It's all about being able to recoverfrom these smaller stressors.
The more you can

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, I've not, Hmm, (52:42):
undefined

Jay Gurden (52:43):
of like the elasticity of

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, I've not heard that word (52:45):
undefined
much, but that's, that's good.
Yeah.

Jay Gurden (52:49):
that that's one that I learned from Sally and the
way that she, the imagery shehas, if you imagine like a boat

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (52:57):
floating on the water

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (53:00):
underneath the boat is the amount of resilience you have.
So if the

Why?

Jay Gurden (53:04):
going out, eventually your boat's gonna ground out.
But

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (53:07):
plenty of water underneath the boat, that, that sort of loads
of room for you to be able to sortof go up and down and, and, but

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I love that. (53:15):
undefined
Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (53:17):
you

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love that. (53:18):
undefined

Jay Gurden (53:18):
without any damage to, to the boat or your brain.

Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Alright.
Are you able to share an example ofa dog you've worked with or maybe
your own dog who, who's made progressby using a trust-based approach?
I.

Jay Gurden (53:34):
Yeah.
I, I generally use Finn because

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (53:38):
so, so

he has.

Jay Gurden (53:40):
has,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's amazing. (53:40):
undefined

Jay Gurden (53:41):
he actually, he has got to the point where will still be stressed, but
his first goal now when he sees somethingthat bothers him is he just wants to
walk past it as quickly as possible.
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Is it like avoidance almost? (53:53):
undefined
Like just like,

Jay Gurden (53:55):
but

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: get me out of here. (53:56):
undefined

Jay Gurden (53:57):
he trusts that if there's a serious issue, we will, you know, we will

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: You've got his back. (54:02):
undefined

Jay Gurden (54:03):
it.
And what, what we often do with him isif you see something that bothers him,
like if you're out on a walk and there'slike some farm machinery in a hedge or
something right next to the path, andit kind of spooks him if it's safe to
do so, we'll go over to it with him andjust go, well, come on, come have a look.
And so he kind of, he, he nowhas this attitude of, if we say

(54:25):
it's okay, then it must be okay.
And

Okay.

Jay Gurden (54:29):
okay, he doesn't like the thing, but let's just get past it and
then we can carry on and enjoy our walk.

Mm,

Jay Gurden (54:34):
So it

good.

Jay Gurden (54:35):
managing the situation much easier because the, the

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (54:39):
need is so much smaller now.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, he is. (54:41):
undefined
Come on.
Leaps and bounds.
You've done so much work with him.

Jay Gurden (54:45):
he my superstar voice.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Brilliant. (54:48):
undefined
Okay, so moving on to our nextsection, which is about practical
strategies for everyday life.
What are ways that pet parentscan help their dog feel safe in a
busy or unpredictable environment?

Jay Gurden (55:02):
I'm a big fan of advocating for your dog.
I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, yeah. (55:04):
undefined

Jay Gurden (55:04):
get quite noisy for

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That'd be me. (55:07):
undefined

Jay Gurden (55:08):
Yeah, yeah.
I, I, I have a good line in bellowing.
Can you call your dog back, please?
I, I came walking Finn one dayin the woods local to hear.
There was a, a dog walker who musthave had five or six dogs, and I
could hear them crashing around.
We couldn't see them, could hear them,to hear that they were quite close.
he, Finn was just starting to get abit, you know, he sort of, his head

(55:30):
was going on different directions,trying to work out where they were.
So I just stood there andyelled at the top of my lungs.
Can you call your dogs please?
Round here.
Luckily, most of them.
Most of them are okay.
We do have one or two that, thattheir dogs have no recall whatsoever.

Yeah,

Jay Gurden (55:45):
one with my youngster a little while ago where she just stood it in
the, the next gateway over, just callingdog's name over and over and over again.
And the dog was justcompletely not listening.
So I did

yeah,

Jay Gurden (55:58):
emergency thing, which is always quite handy.
Big handful of treats, log themto the side and then escape while
they're looking for the treats.

yeah.

Jay Gurden (56:07):
That, that's

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Some find it. (56:07):
undefined

Jay Gurden (56:08):
that, that's one of my emergency escape strategies.

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (56:13):
I've always

So

Jay Gurden (56:14):
on me.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, you can do a bit of scatter, (56:15):
undefined
feeling a bit of find it and stuff.
Get them, get that nose on the floor.
I'm used to saying, focused on the floor.

Jay Gurden (56:21):
can use treats either for your own dog, just, you know, if there has been
something that's upset 'em a bit, just abit of scattering, bit sniffing, just sort
of like to reset their nervous system a

Mm.

Jay Gurden (56:31):
obviously sniffing is calming.
Or

Yeah,

Jay Gurden (56:33):
can use them to, to distract another dog who's coming towards you.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I'm out the way. (56:38):
undefined

Jay Gurden (56:38):
Yeah.
yes, yell.
You, you do find that the more timeyou spend as the person of one of
these dogs, you get really, reallygood at environmental assessment.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, you're kind of always (56:50):
undefined
on a lap, aren't you?

Jay Gurden (56:52):
yeah.
I've actually found out walking myyounger dog who is, you know, she's, you
just snap a lead on her and away you go.
She's really, really easy.
And I just can't switch it off.
Just,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: You wire, you're like (57:03):
undefined

Jay Gurden (57:04):
in every direction.
Just sort of nearly

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: autopilot 'cause you're wired into it. (57:06):
undefined

Jay Gurden (57:08):
It's, it is just, I, this is my life now.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Advocate. (57:12):
undefined
So I love that advocacyadvocate for your dog.
So if your dog was to havea bad day or a setback, how
should the pet parent handle it?

Jay Gurden (57:22):
Take a day off.

Day off.
Yeah.
Love that.

Jay Gurden (57:25):
just

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: we said earlier. (57:26):
undefined

Jay Gurden (57:27):
at home.
Have something nice for both of you.
Just relax.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: the chocolate out (57:32):
undefined

Jay Gurden (57:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chocolate,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: if you've not been put off by it. (57:36):
undefined

Jay Gurden (57:37):
please.
he's quite pastured.
A bit cheese.
But yeah, just, just, youknow, don't be afraid to have a

Mm.

Jay Gurden (57:46):
and just

Just

Jay Gurden (57:47):
calm chill out and yeah, just enjoy each other's company

Mm-hmm.

Jay Gurden (57:52):
yeah, there,

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (57:53):
no need to force yourself out there every day if
it, it is not working for you.

Yeah.
I've said this before, like, as humans,we're conditioned and must walk my dog
every day, twice a day for 30 minutesor an hour a day, where some days some
dogs just need a day off given, youknow, like Nicki French, don't walk
your dog day, give him a day off.

Jay Gurden (58:12):
Yeah.

do some enrichment, sniffing brain games.

Jay Gurden (58:16):
at times, you know, he's, he's a border collie.
He's a farm bred Border Collie, so,you know, he, he's sort of one of those
ones that people would say needs likethree hours of running every day, two
walks a week, and needs probably manage.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, it's, it's again, just working (58:28):
undefined
with a dog that's in front of youand then setting them up for success.

Jay Gurden (58:33):
things that you can do at home, like brain work and, and playing
games and say the trick training toreplace that, that mental and physical
stimulation, but without stress involved.

Yeah.
Brilliant.
I think we've sort of touched on ournext question anyway, so we might
be able to answer some quickly justabout how the role of enrichment
play helps our sensitive dogsfeel more fulfilled and balanced.

Jay Gurden (58:58):
Yeah, I mean, enrichment is all about physical and mental stimulation.
And for these dogs, it's that mentalstimulation that is, is absolutely key.
You know, doing lots of things,sniffing, licking, chewing, all of those
are known to have a calming effect.
So

Yeah,

Jay Gurden (59:15):
those days after a bad experience, lots of those
are, are a really good idea.

yeah,

Jay Gurden (59:23):
things.
Sort of to work their brains,like food puzzles doesn't have
to be expensive or complicated.
It could be a cardboard box.
One of Finn's

exactly.

Jay Gurden (59:33):
box, about 20 L roll tubes and just

Yeah.

Jay Gurden (59:37):
lo some kibble in there.
And he's, he's quite happy.
They're pulling the tubes outand the great thing is they can
wreck the cardboard afterwards.

Is that

Jay Gurden (59:44):
So,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: doesn't have to cost any money. (59:45):
undefined
I mean, like 20 minutes of sniffingor nose, that can be the same
as a 60 minute outdoor walk.
In terms the brain andmental stimulation they get.

Jay Gurden (59:53):
I actually once found, I took Finn for sniffy
walk along a bit of footpath.
So there were people and dogsthat had passed along there.
Obviously not when we were there,but in the 20 minutes I was there,
I think we moved about 15 meters.
That was the grand extent of ourwalk because his nose was just

(01:00:15):
on the ground the whole time.
We got back in the car.
'Cause it literally, I, I'dtaken somebody for appointments.
I dropped them off and just takenhim for a quick, quick walk while
waiting for them to be finished.
So we went, picked that person backup, went home and he was literally
upside down on the sofa for two hours.
Snoring.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It is tiring, isn't it? (01:00:34):
undefined
It's, it's what people don't realize.
Tiring.
It's good for them.
Yeah.
Again, it's

Jay Gurden (01:00:39):
the smell is the primary way that they analyze their world.
So, you know, and they have this massivepart of their brain that is geared
specifically for analyzing scent.
you

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (01:00:52):
mm

working their brains

mm.

yeah, we all know if you've, like say you've been in an exam or
something where you've had to sit andconcentrate for a period of time, it is

Mm,

and it's no

it is,

for us.

yeah.
Brilliant.
Wow.
Literally this episode's been jam packed.
We've sound free this hour.
My god, so many nuggets of you sortof information, some brilliant.
So we're gonna spend the nextfive minutes just sort of wrapping
up with some final questions.
So thank you.
Jay, if you could give dog guardianspet parents one key message about

(01:01:27):
supporting their sensitive orcomplex dog, what would it be?

Listen to your dog.

Love it.
Yeah.

it, it's all about that learning to under there.
There's a great quote, I think,I can't remember the guy's name.
Somebody Pmu, I think, or Han Pook.
Dogs do speak, but onlyto those who can listen.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes, I've heard that one. (01:01:51):
undefined
Yeah.

So that time spent learning about the communication and specifically
about how your dog communicates, how theyfeel, and what is normal for your dog.
There is no such thing as a normal dog.
It's all about what isnormal for your dog.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I mean, what's normal nowadays? (01:02:07):
undefined
Normal, normal's, boring.

I'm not normal, so why would I expect a dog to be

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I'm, I'm definitely not normal. (01:02:12):
undefined

so, yeah, that, that is the, if, if I can send people away with one
nugget of information, that would be it.
Listen to your dog.

I mean, there's been loads of nuggets,
but that I absolutely love that.
Where I listen to your dog.
We're gonna have to coin that one for you.
For someone that's feeling overwhelmed,what would be the first step
they can take to help their dog?

Take that break, that decompression.
It's

Mm

just about decompression for the dog, because we know that being the
person for one of these dogs is hard.
It's stressful for the human as well.

mm-hmm.

if you think about it, if you think about your typical dog walk.
The first few minutes or end awalk, your dog's on the lead.

Mm.

So if, you know, if you are stressed and you've got a death
grip on the lead, you know your dogswill be able to feel that tension.
And when you've got a dog who isa little bit sensitive anyway,
they're gonna be, what, what, what,what can I need to worry about?
And looking

Yeah.
'cause they pick up on that, don't they?
Yeah.

it, it really is beneficial for both dog and person to relax and then
you can go and start working on feelingbetter in the world around you together
from that, that point where you've setyourself up for success because you

Mm-hmm.

all that stress.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Brilliant. (01:03:29):
undefined
Jay, where can our listeners findout more about your work, your
books, and your resources, please?

Well my website is www.goodguardianship.com.
I'm quite active on Facebook.
I have a Facebook

Yeah.

is just under good guardianship.

Lovely.

are.
available on Amazon.

Mm.

Most of them in ebook there's a couple that are in hardcover
and three of them are in audiobook.

Oh wow.
Brilliant.

eBooks can be got from a whole range of stores.
The paperbacks in hardbacks caneither from Amazon or can be
ordered through other bookstores.
Audio

Mm.

are via Amazon, audible, or Apple Books.

Yeah.
And how can people find out moreabout your writing, mentorship,
and your and your memberships?
Is that all just online?

Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the details forall that are on Facebook.
If anybody who's not on Facebook wantsany details about it, if they just
drop me an email on j@guardianship.com,
then I can get back to them.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Nice and easy. (01:04:36):
undefined
jay@goodguardianship.com.

Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Brilliant. (01:04:39):
undefined
Jay G.
Got it right, didn't I?

did that time.
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Thank you so much for joining me on (01:04:45):
undefined
The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily.
I've absolutely loved this episodeand I know our listeners will too.
Thank you so much for joining meand we'll get you on again soon.

Thank so much for having me.
Really enjoyed

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: You are welcome. (01:05:00):
undefined
You are most welcome.
See you soon.

Byebye.
What a brilliantconversation with Jay goin.
Here are some key takeawaysfrom today's episode.
Number one, sensitive and complexdogs process the world differently.
This isn't about being difficult,it's about how they experience

(01:05:24):
and respond to their environment.
Number two, trust and safetyare the foundation for progress.
A dog who feels safe is more likelyto learn, grow, and build confidence.
Number three, fixing isn't the goal.
Understanding is when we stop focusing onfixing behaviours and start meeting the

(01:05:46):
needs of our dogs, everything changes.
Number four, everydog's journey is unique.
Comparison is unhelpful.
What matters is what worksfor your individual dog.
Jay, thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom and passion with us
today and to all our listeners.
If you want to learn more, checkout good guardianship and Jay's

(01:06:11):
book, building the Bond for expertinsights on supporting your dog.
If you enjoyed this episode, pleaseleave a review, share it with a fellow
dog parent, and subscribe so you nevermiss an episode of the yappy hour.
Thanks for listening, andI'll see you next time.

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