Keep your dog safe, understanding muzzles with The Muzzle Movement

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Yappy Hour powered byYappily, the podcast for dog lovers
who want to deepen their understandingof the dogs we share our lives with.
I'm your host Nathan Dunleavy andin today's episode we're joined by
Clara, from the Muzzle Movement.
Clara's work is all about destigmatizing muzzles and helping dog

(00:23):
owners see them as an essential lifeskill, not as a sign of aggression.
We also dive into the recent XL bullyban and what it means for dog owners,
as well as why every dog shouldbe No matter their age, breed, or
personality, should be muzzle trained.
This is a must listen for anyonewho wants to feel more confident and

(00:46):
prepared in their dog care journey.

Clara Hewson (00:49):
Hello.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hi Clara, welcome to the Yappy Hour. (00:50):
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Thank you so much forbeing here with me today.
How are you doing?

Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, we're really good.
Wednesdays are our sortof like team meeting day.
So we've had a day fullof like loads of ideas.
So

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (01:08):
Lovely.

Come up and be able to like, ah, have a minute.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: So you're just buzzing (01:13):
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around with lots of ideas and

Everything's

stuff.
Brilliant.
Well, I know you're very, very busy,so I do appreciate you taking the
time out to come on to the YappyHour to have a chat with me, Clara.
So for those who may not knowyou or the Muzzle Movement, could
you share a bit about the MuzzleMovement and what inspired you to
start this incredible initiative?

Yeah, I love telling this story.
So, yeah, I originally, you know, whenI started out with what was the Muslim
Movement, which was supposed to be justsort of a advocacy and education page.
I had a dog.
Tolly and he was muzzledand he had a bite history.
He was a rescue and I gothim at seven and a half.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I read about Talia. (02:00):
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Yeah.

He's very special.
He's on the wall behind me.
He, you know, I experienced for thefirst time quite a lot of prejudice
against him when we were out inpublic with people saying things
like, you know, he shouldn't be here.
You know, you shouldn't be walkinghim in these places when actually
quite often it was their dog thatwas behaving inappropriately.
Mine was quite oftenon a lead and muzzled.

The way

Yeah, we had quite a few negative interactions and I'd
worked in rescue a really long time.
So I knew that there was stigma ofsurrounding muzzled dogs, but I hadn't
actually ever experienced it firsthand,you know, with strangers throwing
insults at me across the street.
And I was like, well, I don'tthink I can do a huge amount
here, but what I can do is.
Start an Instagram and tell everybodyabout how amazing muzzle dogs are.

(02:46):
And I made Tolly a muzzle because I,

Yes.

you know, I had things that I wanted from a
muzzle that I couldn't find.
And I was like, Oh, well, it'slike hard on his make bond.
And he, you know, I shared iton Instagram just as sort of a
side quest to what I was doing.
And everyone was like, Ithink I want one of them.
I was like,

Oh,

I think I'm on to something here and naively was like, yeah, I guess
I could sell these and then before I knewit, I'd sold 800 in 30 days and I had

oh my.

So yeah, I was like, Oh no, what have I done?
Cause I had a full time job.
Yeah, I had eyes bigger than my belly.
I think, and I was like, comeon, I can help all these dogs.
Yeah, no problem.
I can help you.
It actually took me like eight monthsto get through those first 800 orders.
Cause I had no idea what I was doing.
So yeah, that's how I ended up

Whoa.
So you just, just sort of fell into itand then overnight it just went crazy.

Yeah, the intention was never to like, you know, I
wanted to make the world a bit ofa better place for muzzle dogs.
And if I could,

Yeah.

the welfare of muzzle dogs while I was doing it, I love that.
I didn't actually wantto quit my previous job.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, okay. (03:58):
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I love this just as if not more, but yeah, at

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: of course. (04:04):
undefined

I was like, what have I done?
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh my God. (04:09):
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I love that.

Yeah.
I just woke up one day and it's like,I don't think I can do my job anymore.
I haven't got

And, no, you had to cut back on, like you
say, your full time job because this thisbeast just grew into, you know, you had
to focus your time and energy onto it.

Yeah.
And

Oh, wow.

it worked out really well because, you know, I, I left
my full time role in May and thensort of by September we had news
of the Excel bully ban happening.
And

Yep.

by December, you know, yeah, it all was out the water
and there's no way I could have.
You know, continued to be a seniortraining and behaviour advisor
at Dog's Trust during that.
So,

Ah, that's where you were, the dog's trough.
So, it's not even been a year yetthat you've left your full time job.
Oh my god!

Yeah, it's

Wow.

pretty great.
It's just over a year now,

Just,

May the year before, but

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: hours of May here before, (05:00):
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yeah, we, it's just over a year.
And, you know, this time last year,we were a team of, you know, three
and I was calling in all my friendsbecause the bully ban had just happened.
And I was like, you needto come and help me.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, getting all your favours. (05:15):
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Yeah.
And I was like, quick, you needto come off to work immediately.
And

Wow.

this time last year, yeah, we were a team of four just,

Yes.

we're a team of 12 and you know, they're

Oh wow.

Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: God, you've like tripled (05:31):
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your, your workforce and

Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: it's just this big beast is (05:34):
undefined
just growing and growing.
So we are going to be touchingon the Excel bully ban you
know, later on in the episode.
So I'm glad you brought that up.
But as you already mentioned, muzzlescan be such a controversial topic.

Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: do you think there's still (05:51):
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much, there's still so much?
Stigma surrounding them.

I think it's really difficult.
I think that there's loads of reasons.
I think there's this perceptionthat in some ways, muzzles don't
allow dogs the same freedoms thatthey would have without a muzzle.
So quite often we'll get comments onour social media, like, well if, if
you don't like it, you should wear it.
You know, if you like them somuch, you should wear them.
Or how would you like if Itied your hands together?

(06:17):
You know, they're not comparable.
A muzzle, you know, yes, there definitelyare muzzles out there that are.
unethical and unsafe and

Sure.

used for long

Yeah.

But majority of dogs, muzzles provide them with
freedom that they wouldn't have.
So

Exactly.

not taking freedoms away.

Exactly.

the misconception is that, you know, yeah, sometimes
need them to be able to do things.
Other dogs don't needthem to be able to do.

Yeah.

And then I think that the UK's legislation around,
you know, when a muzzle shouldbe used has a really big impact.
So in the

Yeah.

the only time that a muzzle is legally required is if
you have this quote, dangerous dog.
And that kind of plays into our perceptionof why that dog would be wearing a muzzle.
We kind

Yes.

obviously they've been forced to buy this

Yes.

it's the law.

Yeah.
It's all just gone a bit nuts.
No, I'm a big, I'm abig advocate of muzzles.
And being a qualified dog trainer as well.
I used to run puppy classes.
So muzzle training waspart of my puppy classes.
It come as standard and peoplelike Oh, this is a bit strange.
Why are we doing this?
But I was like, well, everydog should be muzzle trained.

(07:36):
And if we can start to introducethem and desensitize them from
an early age at a puppy, thenit's not going to be a big deal.
And they're needed for the groomerssometimes, they're needed for vets.
You do not want your dog just havingthis thing forced on their face.
It's already a stressfulexperience going to the vets,

Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: to the groomers. (07:55):
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You don't suddenly want thisthing That's not been trained
or desensitized on your face.

Yeah, I think first time that, you know, dogs wear muzzles, it's
just this like fun and novel experience.
It doesn't have to mean anything.
It can just be a really great gameto help confidence build, putting
their face into novel objects.
It doesn't have to

exactly.

you know, because one day my dog, may end up biting the bed.
You don't know.
But I

Yeah.

At the moment, like, we don't know what scenarios
our dogs might be put in in thenext sort of 5, 10, 15 years.
I think the bully ban,

Yeah.

also, like, I had quite a few interesting conversations this week
because there's been lots of naturaldisasters over in the States, I just,
like, that sort of scenario where you'rein an emergency, you don't know who's
going to be handling your dog, whereyou're going to end up, you don't know
if you're going to be, you know, aroundother people, around other animals.
Having the ability to your dog for ascenario like that, just in case you

(08:57):
need to be able to pop a muzzle on.
It is sort of invaluable.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. (09:02):
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I used to do it as the cone game.
So they have like a cone and you sortof get the puppy used to the face
going in the cone with some treats.
The dog that sat on my lap now,he, he has no problems with
pop, popping his face into.
a bar or like a Costa Clubor something like that.
So yeah, it's really important.
I think it comes down to education again.

(09:23):
And there's a number of reasons why a dogcould be muzzled, which we can talk about.
But yeah, thank you so much.
So we mentioned the Excelbully ban there then.
So.
The Excel bully ban wasundoubtedly a huge talking point.
How has that impacted the muzzlemovement and the, and the demand
for muzzle training resources?

Yeah.
I mean, significantly we have, youknow, we, this time last year, the
bully ban had just been implemented.
We were just finding our feet and we weresort of flung into this new stratosphere.
And I think it would be unfair to say,you know, the Excel bully ban didn't
benefit us from a business point of view.
Of

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Of course, yeah, yeah. (10:04):
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And I think that's important to note, because although we absolutely
wish that it never happened, it had, itforced us to move very quickly, which I
think is why we are further ahead thanwe would have been otherwise, because we
were sort of flung into a position wherewe wanted to make sure that resources
and muzzles were available immediately.

Yeah.

What's that needed the most, but the thing that we've probably
outside of, obviously, you know, sales forsizes that would fit XL bullies tripling.

Yeah.

We have hosted free fitting days, which are open to any breed

Wow.

read that comes here more than any other
breed is the XL bully or an XL

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Is it, is it? (10:47):
undefined

Yeah.

okay.

And

Yeah,

all over.
They took, you know,

really?

XL bully.
Guardians have driven, youknow, eight hour round trips

Oh, wow.

You know, come and, you know, have a bit of support because on
our fitting days, it's not just abouthow that muzzle fits, it's how we can
introduce it safely the first time, youknow, perhaps they've really struggled
with different muzzles or even our muzzlesso it's sort of walking them through
how we might want to introduce it fortheir specific dog because sometimes

Yeah,

Dogs, they've had to wear a muzzle.
They got, they got three months noticeand that was if you believed it was going
to happen, which a lot of people didn't.
So muzzle training inthree months is really hard

it is.
Yeah, it just,

all this pressure.
So,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, it just came out of nowhere. (11:32):
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And then, you know, suddenlyeveryone's having to get muzzles.
They didn't even knowwhere to get them from.
And, you know, obviously train.
And yeah, it just it wasa really stressful time.
I know for a lot of ex algaeoners.
Great that they found youand that you put on these.
these fitting days.
What do you think is missingfrom the conversation about about

(11:53):
breed bans and muzzles in general?

Yeah.
I think that, well, there's a few things,there's, you know, breed bans as a whole,
you know, I couldn't disagree with more.

Oh God, that's, that's a whole other episode.

But in terms of specifically, you know, the perception
of dogs that have to wear a muzzlebecause they're legally mandated to,
I think there's a lot of, oh, it's sosad that they have to wear a muzzle.
Oh, it's so miserable.
I would, I would move out the country.
I would never subject my dog to that.
I think.
Okay, fair enough.
Like, if you think a muzzle is that awful,I think if they were to actually ask a

(12:32):
lot of the Excel bully guardians who'veintroduced their muzzle slowly and they've
invested the time in an appropriatefit and, you know, they've done all the
desensitization and counter conditioning,dogs aren't that impacted by the

The

the public's perception,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: perception. (12:47):
undefined

Yeah, the, you know, having to be on lead all the time, because
being on lead I think is more restrictivethan a muzzle in a lot of cases, like
loads of muzzle dogs can have enjoyableoff lead exercise with a muzzle on.

yeah.

I think that of people focus on how awful it must be for
that dog to have a muzzle on, but

Okay.

the Bully Bound, and a lot of the time it's not actually the muzzle.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's not, and to the dog, (13:13):
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it's probably not a big deal.
Yeah, there's this alien

Yeah,

and they may not have, you know, may not
have had to experience that before,but from the dog's point of view, it's
not really a, probably a bigger deal.
It's everything elsethat's going on, isn't it?
It's all the other crap that'ssurrounding it unfortunately.
And we, we mentionedabout the owners as well.
Obviously they were feeling overwhelmedor they were feeling judged when
their dog had to wear a muzzle.

(13:41):
How do you think we can changethis narrative to create a more,
a more, a more supportive culturearound what muzzle wearing?

I think part of that comes from the way that we
talk about dogs that are muzzled.
So if we're saying things and repeatingthings and putting them out in the world
about how awful that must be, you know,how uncomfortable that must be, we are
reinforcing the narrative that they

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, we're, we're creating that (14:03):
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negative narrative, aren't we?

And I think a lot of, know, bully guardians have
learned actually out of everythingthe muzzle is not the worst bit.
So they aren't saying, you know, Iwish he never had to wear this muzzle.
I think really they would prefernot to have to neuter and not, you
know, to have to keep him on lead.

Yeah,

but yeah, I think that there's.
There's lots of work that can be doneabout the language that we use to describe

yeah,

And a lot

yeah.

needs to happen on helping the wider population understand that,
you know, dogs aren't just muzzledbecause they are, quote, dangerous dogs.
There's a huge amount of reasonswhy dogs might be wearing a muzzle,
and actually you haven't got a cluewhy that dog's wearing a muzzle.
So about it.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, it all comes back to education (14:47):
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again and I'm really big on sort ofeducation and owners being educated.
But this area in particular, likeyou say, there's hundreds of reasons
why they could be wearing it.
And it just comes down toeducation again brilliant.
Thank you.
So we're gonna move on to the importanceof muzzle training for every dog.

(15:09):
We sort of already touchedon it a little bit there.
But why do you think it's so importantfor every dog regardless of age
or breed to be muzzle trained?

Yeah, I think like I mentioned before, you never know
what scenario you're going to bein if my worst case scenario is,
you know, I've got a small dog.
I've got a very big dog, butI've got a very small dog.
She's 12.
My Biggest fear is that we are out inpublic you know, a larger dog bigger
than her comes, bowls her over, she'sinjured in some way, and she's not good

(15:42):
at veterinary handling, she's not goodwith strangers, and she doesn't, she's
lived with my partner for eight years, andstill now he can't pick her up to put her

Oh,

does it, of her own, you know, free accord, but he can't put
her under pressure to do that, so, you

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, bless her. (15:58):
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That's a big fear of mine that we will end up in a medical emergency
and, you know, I might need help.
I might need help.
You know, I, you know,it's not just another dog.
It could be that we get hit by a car.
I don't know.
I could need help as much as sheneeds help or in a car accident.
I don't know.
And I just think if she didn't havethe skill of muzzles at that point, how
would she have adequate veterinary care?

(16:19):
It just wouldn't happen.
And she's so special that I'd be

Yeah.

just ignore me.
So her.

Yeah.

And on that note, you know, my larger dog, my worry is potentially
he could inadvertently injure something,somebody else, you know, live, not
livestock wildlife in particular.
I just think he's gotsuch a high prey drive.
He's

Yeah.

anyway, because he's currently exempt, even though he's not an
exiled bully, but a whole nother topic.
He could have been exiled bully when hewas eight months ago, but now he's almost,

Oh, and there's that thing in it about
if they fitted in to type and itwas all done on height or something.
And,

yeah,

oh,

yeah, but

it was,

his muzzle all the time.
So

yeah.

found in the last year of him wearing his muzzle,
the amount of different contextsthat I have used his muzzle, even
though that wasn't the originalintention of him wearing his muzzle.
So when visitors come, he reallyhard mouths, which is not fun
for the people that visit.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: This one mouths. (17:23):
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Yeah,

Yeah.

him as a muzzle in that scenario, one, so that he can have
safe and comfortable interactionswith those people, but two, so that
people visiting are more comfortable.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, I'm not going around there again. (17:34):
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And he's so big as well, like when he's jumping up and
mounting it, it's really not fun.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's not fun. (17:42):
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I mean, this one does it becausehe's over excited and and then over
aroused and obviously he's Marvinbecause he and he wants attention.
He's an attention seeker, but you know,he's got his other issues as well.
But no, I mean, another reasonI wouldn't have even thought to
put a muscle on them to stop him.
Malvin, because like my, you know, myparents are getting older and they don't

(18:04):
want him nipping at him and it hurts.
Their skin is not as tough.
So I really, I'm really interestedto know what breed is the
12 year old, the little one,

She is, she's a Cavalier Cross Westie.

Oh.

Mostly, in fact, I don't know if you can see, she's
on the wall behind me, I've chopped

Okay.

But she's Cavalier Cross Wesley, but she gets
called a puggle all the time.

Oh

but yeah, she's exceptionally cute.
She's called Pig, and I'vehad her my, you know, for the,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: she's called, she's called pig. (18:35):
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Pig.

I hope it doesn't give her a complex.
That's for sure.
For whatever reason, I thoughtyou were going to say Chihuahua
because I've got three.
And again, Chihuahuas have gotsuch a bad rep, haven't they?
As an aggressive dog whenreally they're just so spirited.
You've got so much character.

yeah.

because they're snarling and they're baring
their teeth, they're deemed aggressive.
So I thought you were goingto say you had a chihuahua.

I mean, she, one of the girls in the team does have a
chi, so we're big chi advocates here.
And

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, great. (19:06):
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One of the things that, you know, really frustrated us in the bully
band was loads of people saying, Oh,actually, you know, they aren't the worst.
XL bullies aren't the worst.
You

Yeah.

like, no, not breed stereotype, one breed and then stereotype
another one in defense of the other one.

And it's all, and chihuahuas do get a bad rep.
They're always used in courses and stuff.
Yeah.
Anyway, I could get on my high horse,but let's move on to the next question.
So what are some of the commonscenarios where muzzle training
can make a big difference fortheir dogs and their owners?
Like we said about, youknow, the vets, the groomers.

(19:46):
I really liked your, your examplethen of your own dog and visitors.

This is a big one.
I think that we if we utilize musclesmore when people come to the home, we
wouldn't have so many dog incidents.
Dog bites predominantly happen insidethe home with people that we know, right?

yeah,

just because your dog is in the home and with people, you know,
doesn't mean that that is a completelysafe and void of risk scenario.

yeah,

I think that muzzles should be considered part of an option
available to dogs that might need them.
Their scavenging is another huge reason.
Probably second, I would say, most popularreason for people to choose a muzzle
is dogs that eat items they shouldn't.
They live in areas wherethere's bait or poison.

yeah,

It might be that they ingest items they shouldn't like
they, you know, they really enjoytoy play, but once they've ordered
the toy, they try and swallow it, or

yeah,

it could be that they poop, or they're on a special diet.
So maybe

yeah.

something and they're not allowed to eat
everything they come across.
So

Yeah, there's loads of reasons, isn't there?
Medical, medical reasons thatit's an older dog yeah, like you
said, there's so many reasons, butit's just instantly people just
like, oh, the dog's aggressive.
And we need to get awayfrom that narrative because

absolutely.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: there's a number of reasons, you (21:08):
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know, we need to, need to lookbeneath the surface and not judge.

It's putting off people that actually a muzzle would make their
life significantly less stressful.
You know, if you're walking a dogand you're worried about them eating
everything they find, and theyhave a medical condition that means
potentially it's life threatening ifthey do eat that thing, the reason
they don't want a muzzle is becausethey're worried what people will think.
hindering their welfare and their dog'swelfare, which is really miserable when

(21:37):
you know, you think of it like that.
So,

Yeah.

There is definitely this

Okay.

We need to judge people less for the

Yes.

their individual dogs

Yeah,

in turn consider things for our own individual dogs that maybe
we thought we wouldn't have previously.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: and I think the Excel bully ban has (21:55):
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brought this, this shift and thisfocus more on muzzles, hasn't it?
And I think if we can just, like, helpeducate the owners a bit more even if
it's done at the groomers at the vets,at puppy training classes, if we can just
help the The owner navigator, because mostowners just want the best for their dogs.

Yeah
Yeah,

and yeah, we need to not be quick to judge.
So talking about our owners, then, thosethat are nervous about starting muzzle
training, what would you say is thefirst step that you would recommend?

Yeah, for me, I think there's loads of things that are great
to do, but I think perhaps findingother people that use muzzles for all
sorts of different reasons, right,because I think when we are you know,
a dog guardian and we're consideringusing a muzzle for the first time, we
might think we are one of a minority ofpeople that are going to use a muzzle.
because the dog is not aggressivewhen actually it couldn't
be further from the truth.

(22:53):
The majority of people thatbuy our muzzles, obviously
the bully ban is a huge one.
Those dogs aren't aggressivedogs and then challenging.
So if you were to follow us alongon socials, the majority of dogs
that are tagging, tagging us intheir posts and stuff, they're just
normal dogs that eat poo or like.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Most, most do eat poo, or they eat (23:13):
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horse poo, or, or they roll in foxpoo, they might try and eat that.

You are not on an island on your own and you aren't the only person
in the world that's considering a muzzle.
There's hundreds and hundreds ofpeople that reach out to us every day
asking whether we think a muzzle wouldbe appropriate for their scenario.
our answer was always, it's alwaysuseful to have it, even if you think,
OK, but it's not that big of a problem.
I can manage it.

(23:41):
You know, I can use baby gates orI can keep them on lead or I can.
OK, I agree.
All of those things arephenomenal management strategies.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: management. (23:48):
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That sows a muzzle.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, and a muzzle, yeah. (23:51):
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Yeah,

I think it's just breaking down that
stigma, and we're starting to get there.
So how can we make muzzlesfeel like a normal and positive
part of the life for our dogs?

I think there's, there's quite a lot to be said there
for people showing their dogs livinghappy lives, wearing a muzzle, I think

Yeah.

wear events and go, can a dog even drink through a muzzle?
Yes, dogs can drink in muzzles.
They can drink eat if it's safe to do so.
Otherwise you get scavenger guardsthat prevent them from eating, but
they can take, treat through a muzzle.
They can, you know, regulatetheir body temperature.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I can pant. (24:29):
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Yeah, they can do everything that they could do before a muzzle, just
can't do it with their mouth, right?

Yeah.

I think that there's a lot to be said for people that, you know, show
their dogs, they're out in public withtheir dogs, living a good life, sharing

Yeah.

media, and making sure that people understand that actually, some of
these dogs are living better lives thandogs that don't have access to muzzles,
who might not, have the confidence to takethem to the places that the confidence
that a muzzle provides would give.
So,
That's a big part.
I think also there's learningmore about muzzle fit.
So quite often if

Yes.

A member of public comes to us for the first time, they're like,
I've tried a muzzle but she hates it.
She'll never, she'll never wear amuzzle, they're awful, my dog hates them.
And that is, the muzzle is not very wellfit, so it's quite restrictive, the dog's
not comfortable, they can't regulate theirbody temperature, they can't pant in the
same way, and I probably wouldn't likethat either if I was, I was a dog and I

(25:30):
was like, no, I need to cool down now.

Yeah.

So,

Yeah.

that has a much bigger impact than we realise, is

Yeah.

putting restrictive muzzles on dogs and then saying, oh
no, all muzzles are terrible becausemy dog hates them, we need to assess
fit as much as we need to assess, youknow, how that muzzle was introduced.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Definitely. (25:51):
undefined
I don't think sometimes certainTV programs, how people like they
were going on about a certainbreed on this morning yesterday.
And that's now, that's now gonna, youknow, probably start to take some.

Yeah, I think the media has a huge role to play in the bully band,
but in the perception of, you know, dogs,and I think that the same with, you know,
the images that rescues use the imagesthat that's used images that trainers use.
I think all of us, everybody inthe, you know, dog stratosphere

Yeah.

To make sure that when we're talking about muzzles,
we're using appropriately fittingmuzzles, because that might be the
only time that person sees a muzzle.
If that's what they think is normal, thenthey need to use a muzzle in the future.
That's what they'll reach for, because

Yeah.

So we have a responsibility to make sure that, especially as
professionals that are giving adviceto the public, we are advising

undefined

how to safely introduce a muzzle, but how to make sure that
that muzzle is safely fit as well.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, yeah. (26:55):
undefined
Because you don't want a dog that's got,you know, got one that's uncomfortable
or too small or too big, you know.

Harder as well, like when when I was in rescue, there
wasn't many muscles available, right?
And, you know, these dogs arealready really distressed.
They're in kennels quite often.
They're not getting out foras often as they'd like.
They don't have thesame human contact time.
They might have just sufferedlike a really traumatic loss or

Yeah.

that has thrown their, you know, social and
safety network out of the window.

Yeah.

on top of all of that, I need you to learn a new skill in this
thing that is not going to be comfortable.
And it

Yeah.

they're in kennels longer, the training takes
longer, they don't get in a home.
There's this likelihood

Yeah.

behaviour complications might arise due to
the duration of time in kennels.
So

Yeah.

critical effect.
And it starts with Is itactually going to be comfortable?

Yeah,

mine.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: well if I was wearing one, I'd (27:55):
undefined
want it to be comfortable andI'd want it to be colourful like
yours are and full of bling.

I mean, it's a terrible example, but it's
a lot like the COVID masks.
Like, sure, we could haveall worn the PPE, but we all,

We all,

right?

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: we did, didn't we? (28:10):
undefined
I got some of my business name, like mybusiness name on and got them all branded
because I think I'm going to wear it.
I might as well.

exactly.
if it's going to keepyou safe, you'll wear it.
But if you're going to wearit, it's going to look cool.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's got to look cool. (28:24):
undefined
And, you know, before COVID camein, I used to see, like, certain
people from different countrieswearing masks, and you're like,
oh, I wonder why they wear that.
And then, again, there was a stigmaaround wearing the mask, and then it
had to come the norm, and people arestill wearing them now, and that's okay.
If they want to wear it.
Brilliant.
Thank you so much.

(28:45):
Let's move on then to talking aboutsome of your success stories, your
awards and advocacy the muzzlemovement has won multiple awards.
So multi award winning.
What do these recognitions meanto you in the work you're doing?

Yeah, I think that everything we've done in this last
year, it has felt so magical, likethe first ever stand at Crufts that
was completely dedicated to muzzles,like that's never been done before.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's massive. (29:13):
undefined

Yeah, like being you know, we've had our muzzles on TV,
we've had them we've had, you know,from YouTube come and visit and tell
stories about us and our story and,you know, I think the awards is just
the sort of icing on the cake, really.
It's like, people see what we'redoing and they think that we
are doing a really good job.
And quite often when you're in thethick of it, and you're juggling

(29:37):
templates and, you know, runningaround, like, let's check it out.
You forget there's actually peoplewatching and hoping that you do well.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Is that clear? (29:45):
undefined

you do get a bit bogged down, you know, with the bully ban, we
missed deadlines, we were inundated,we wanted to make sure we got them
out quick and sometimes we, you know,we were slower than we wanted to be.
sometimes you get boggeddown with that stuff.
So it's nice to, you know, stepback and be like, look where
we are a year later today.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, look at what you've achieved. (30:05):
undefined
That's amazing.
And it was to be expected thatyou were, you, you, you were just
thrown in at the deep end, really.
So if there were a few delays,like you, it couldn't be helped.
So you were doing your best.

we're I'm learning.
I've never run a business before.
I've never managed a team of 12.
I didn't know how to manufacture anything.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And you've said about spinning, (30:31):
undefined
being a business owner, youare spinning a lot of plates.
So you've gone from like being employed tobeing a business owner and having staff.
And like you say, it's like.
And you forget about some, someof the stuff and it's nice just to
be able to then be recognized forall the hard work you're doing.

When you're competing against really big brands, you know,
they're doing some really cool stuff.
And when people say no, like welike the message that they have.
And I think

yeah,

reflected in the public's perception of muzzles changing, but also
like pet professionals understandingof muzzles is changing as well.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, yeah, (31:06):
undefined

that's really cool.
When I started, you know, I camewith what I thought a muzzle should
fit and I had a dog and I was like,I think I can do better than this.
But before that, I'd neverthought about it here.
Like not.
I thought there are alternative muzzlesavailable for the dogs that I was working
with in rescue, only when it was mydog and I was like, I want to be able

(31:29):
to deliver treats easier now, was I

yeah.

fixed this, which I'm like, duh, like you've had those
problems your whole life with dogs.
Yeah, it's

Oh,

hear that.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: brilliant. (31:41):
undefined
Do you have like a, I mean, youget tagged and sent loads of
messages and I appreciate it'shard to keep up a little bit.
Is there a favourite success story froman owner or dog that's benefited from
your resources that stands out at all?

I think we've got so many.
I mean, we're always told, you know,Oh, my dog's worn its muzzle for
10 minutes for the first time ever.
Or dog is able to make friendswith my mum's dog who he's never
met before because I feel relaxedand happy and safe and, you know.
They're having safe interactions.
And, but I think for me, the, the onethat I think like deserves an honorable

(32:16):
mention, I suppose, is have a friendthat we knew from dogs trust who
adopted a dog on the 29th of December.
Right.
He

yeah.

Yeah, 29th of December, just before the XL Bully ban, he's called Hippo
and he's this big sort of bald headed XLbully and she was like, you're with me.
And you know, he'd been wearing a reallysmall muzzle, he'd been introduced to
a muzzle and he actually came and hetried on our size Harry and it was too
small for his big chonky head, which is

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: brilliant. (32:46):
undefined

unusual that happens.
So he had a muzzle that didn't fit himvery well, his Harry wasn't a really
good fit, so he helped us design.
The size bigger.
So the first sort of six monthsof this year, Hippo came five
times to our unit and he is

Oh.

absolutely just chef's kiss, perfect temperament.
I am so mad did not take him home.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, you're getting hippo envy. (33:10):
undefined

I have got Hippo envy, but he, you know, he was saved at the
ninth hour from euthanasia because

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I think I saw something about this. (33:19):
undefined

Yeah, he made it onto BBC.
So yeah, he came and helpeddesign this size for us.
He came to the unit five times.
We had all these differentversions of the size Mitzi, which
is the size bigger than Harry.
And then, you know, he was thefirst one to get his hands on it.
He road tested it, got itout there in the public.
And, you know, now he'sliving his best life.

(33:43):
He's been on

Oh,

Yeah, he was on BBC as ITV like

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: little celeb. (33:48):
undefined

Yeah, he is.
He's like a, yeah, he's likea, he's like a perfect example
of an Excel bully because he'sjust so gorgeous in every way.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Well, he's advocating for the breed. (33:58):
undefined

Exactly.
Yeah, he's like, I, I will showeverybody Excel bullies are friendly.
I promise.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: XL Bullying Mascot. (34:05):
undefined
And I'm a big, I'm a big believer inlike being your dog's superhero as well.
I've said that in a couple ofother episodes, so it definitely
sounds like, you know, he'sfound his superhero as well.

Absolutely.
I just think they've not only havethey changed Hippo's life, but
bringing him to our unit five times.
It's not that they're not very local, likethey, there was no benefit for them in
that I wasn't paying them that, you know,they didn't get free and discounted stuff.
They just wanted to make surethat other dogs like Hippo had
access to appropriate muzzles.
And I just think what they,what Hannah and Hippo did

yeah.

It's crazy because she didn't have to do that.

No.

So

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that's amazing. (34:49):
undefined

really special.

It's really nice when you hear sort of,
like heartwarming stuff like that.
Particularly on a cold, chilly day.
Yeah.

There's so many phenomenal people that have helped us out along
this journey, and I just think like,you didn't have to do that, but they
do it because they love muzzled dogsor they love their breed or, you know,

Exactly.

how magical is that?

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, it's so magical. (35:11):
undefined
Thank you.
So what would be your vision forthe future of muscle awareness
and training in the UK and beyond?

Yeah, I think that I would like to see more people.
to the idea of introducing a muzzle,or at least less of an adverse
reaction when a muzzle is potentially

Yeah.

by the trainers, veterinary practices, groomers I would like there
to be a higher level of understandingof how to introduce a muzzle because
Sometimes when we're introducinga muzzle for the first time,
we want to move really quickly.
And that kind of confirms our perceptionthat that muzzle is not very nice because
And the dog's like, no, I don't like this.
It's on my face now.

(35:53):
And I think that if we understood,actually it's something that takes time.
It's, you know, it's not a two day thing.
It's a two, three, four.
week, you know, five minutes

Yeah.

thing.
Then I think that more people would havemore success with introducing a muzzle,
because I think a lot of people try andthey go, I've tried it, it didn't work.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I give up. (36:13):
undefined

nah, we can do it better this time.

Yeah, with any training it, it takes time.
You get, you get outwhat you put in really.
And, but some people unfortunatelydo want that quick fix and they're
not prepared to put in there.
The effort and the time.

yeah.
And I think as well, I thinkthat there needs to be a wider
understanding of, you know, muzzlesaren't exclusively for woolly breeds.
Like, they're just not.
There's so many smalldogs, big dogs, you know,

Yeah,

elderly dogs absolutely can benefit from a muzzle if they go into
the vets more or if they've got medical

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: definitely, (36:50):
undefined

And I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: definitely. (36:52):
undefined

Something the UK is not great at, which other countries are,
like for example, it's the law that alldogs wear muzzles on public transport.
So

okay.

isn't the same perception in France, if you see a dog out on
the tube station waiting to get ona train, there's no thought in that
person's head, oh, that dog's dangerous.
it's not, because it'sjust getting on a train.
And I don't

what the owner, the owner's just, no, the owner's
just being a responsible dog owner by,

exactly.

yeah.

And I don't think that we should have, you know,
blanket muzzle rules at all.
I just don't think that that's right.
I don't think that's the waythat we should be going about.
Oh, well, the way we canreduce dog attacks is actually
every dog wears a muzzle.
I think that's so silly.
I think that actually, if the peoplethat had dogs that were a higher risk.
We're more comfortable using a muzzlein a variety of different scenarios.

(37:44):
You know, not just, oh, well, when they'reout in public, I'll put a muzzle on.
Okay, but if the risk is in thehome, then let's use it in the home.
That's fine.

Yeah.

yeah, I think that dog bites would go down.
And that doesn't involve every dogin the UK needing to wear a muzzle.
It just involves the right dogand the right people using a
muzzle in the right context.

Yeah.
Fantastic.
We would just like to see a few moredogs, different dogs in them, really.

Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: up a bit of a trend on, on TikTok. (38:08):
undefined
So this question was thrown inby by Kelly at Yappily, actually.
So you've had recently theincredible opportunity to speak
at the Houses of Parliament.
Now I've got to get this right, aspart of the all party Parliamentary
Dog Advisory Welfare Group.
Could you tell us about that experienceand what message you wanted to share

(38:32):
with policymakers and the importanceof muzzles and stuff like that?
Wow.

that was so cool.
I have never had an opportunity to doanything like that before in my life.
I've never even been to theHouses of Parliament, let alone
been in the Houses of Parliament.
And I was like, whoa, Ican't believe this is my

Wow.

Cool.
I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Pinch me, David. (38:52):
undefined
Pinch me, David.

And I was like, I don't think you're not allowed to
take videos or pictures inside.
Right.
So I was like,

Oh.

you can show people,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, I won it for the gram. (39:01):
undefined

I was like, come on, this is tick tock where the, but no, it

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: What an amazing experience. (39:08):
undefined

It was phenomenal to be invited, to be honest, because I
just think, you know, it's such a,quote, hot topic at the moment and I
think if momentum is here, and peopleare talking about it, and we can
help that continue, and we can moveforward with actually changing the
way that muzzle dogs are perceived.
we should, you know, even if it'scome from the back of something

(39:31):
really awful, maybe we can dosome good on the other side of it.
So that was phenomenal.
And I think they were all so open to,you know, listening and learning about
appropriate fit and understanding,you know, why dogs wear muzzles.
Because I think, you know, the averageperson, including people, you know,
in parliament, have absolutely no idea

No,

wear muzzles.

no clay.

So, that was a really cool opportunity to sort of shine a spotlight
on us and what we're doing to help, but

Good.

what they can do to help, which is, you know, change the language
they use, consider, you know, not havingthis knee jerk, visceral response to
dogs in muzzles, you know, it's just,yeah, it was really, really cool.
I loved it.

Good.
Are you going to begoing back or, you know?

I've been invited as part of the app dogs, so they have like a meeting
where they go through different policiesand stuff that's coming up and like,
just like working groups is a good way

Yes.

And realistically right now we do not have the time.
I was like, Oh, I really, reallywant to, but like, I have a team
of It's all the way in London.
Like I just don't know whether I can.
So we've sort of mentioned potentiallythat there is the possibility I could
chip into for things over email.
I already made somebrilliant connections there.

(40:54):
A

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, good. (40:54):
undefined

So I followed a few of them up, you know, sort of bets that are
pioneering for better breeding and to makesure that, you know, we aren't breeding
dogs that have significant medicalconditions from birth sort of thing.

Yeah.

I just think maybe there is something that I can do to
support those people on their missionas much as they supported me on mine.
So, yeah, that's really.

undefined
Oh, how exciting.
Thank you.
Right, we're going to start wrappingup this episode in the last sort
of five or so minutes just forsome final questions, et cetera.
So thank you.
So Clara, what's one thing you hope ourlisteners take away from this conversation
about muzzles and their importance?

Yeah, so number one would be any dog can benefit from muzzle training.
That is the most simple message I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Absolutely. (41:41):
undefined

And then number two would be there are so many
reasons that dogs wear muzzles.
You don't know, so don't judge.

Exactly.
Brilliant.
If you could give one piece of advice toa dog owner that was feeling uncertain
about muzzle training, what would it be?

It would be find your community.
So find other people who haveexperienced the same, you know.
Potential thoughts about the perceptionof their dog wearing a muzzle and to
speak to a forestry trainer about it Ithink that or us, you know, we're happy
to but I think that Being able to soundoff to someone and who can reassure
you that you are doing what's rightfor you and your dog In the scenario

(42:20):
that's so unique to you and your dog Andsometimes I think you just need a bit of
external reassurance that it's not cruel.
It's not mean it's keeping yousafe It's keeping them safe.
It's a great decision

undefined
Brilliant.
Thank you.
Clara, thank you so much forjoining me on the Yappy Hour today.
It's been an absolute pleasure, pleasureto hear your insights and to learn
more about all the incredible workyou're doing with the muzzle movement.
Your Dedication and passion tode stigmatizing, can't even say

(42:53):
that word, muzzles and promotingthem as a positive life skill
for all dogs is truly inspiring.
The muzzle movement is makingsuch a huge difference.
Not only helping dog ownersfeel more confident, but also in
creating a safer, more understandingenvironment for all dogs.

(43:13):
Your work is changing perceptionsand making life better for so
many dogs and their families.

Yeah.
very

take so much away from this conversation.
Clara, how can people find out moreabout you and the muzzle movement
if they want to get in touch?

Thank you so much.
That was so sweet.
So, yeah, you can find us on social media.
It's the muzzle movement or ourwebsite, the muzzle movement dot com.
So we're super easy to find

Yeah.

unit which is in the Midlands.
So if you're anywherenear the Midlands and you

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, okay. (43:44):
undefined
I did wonder where you were.

Yeah, well, I'm Leicestershire.
So if that

Yeah,

people travel over the place to come and all
the support that we offer here.
It's a team of, you know, professionals.
We can help with any muzzlerelated challenges or
struggles that they might have.
So we're more than happy to

Perfect.
Perfect.
And that website again isthemusclemovementoneword.
com.
We're gonna finish on two final questions.
Who else do you think weshould invite on this podcast?
I'm sure you know lots of people.
Who do you think we should invite?

So the two businesses that I have helped us
significantly since the beginning.
So there's Tug Enough, who,

Yes.

When we launched, I was like what we're doing.
And I got a social media manager whoactually also manages Tugging off.
And she was like, you knowwhat, there is definitely

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Synergy here. (44:41):
undefined

Yeah.
And

Yeah.

perfect.
Because I don't know what I'm doing.

Wow.
Big, big reveal for our listeners.
Danny from Tug Enough is coming on.
So watch, watch this space.
I'm just chatting with Lara at themoment and getting, and getting Danny on.
So that's a big reveal for ourlisteners that he will be coming on.
I love Tug Enough.
So yeah.
Okay.
Anyone, anyone else?
You said there was two businesses.

The other one was perfect fit.
So,

Oh, yes.

yeah, we've we've, all the professional events we've done this year,
I've been like, there you are again.
And

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I'd I'd, Nathan how, I'd love to get (45:16):
undefined
a contact for Perfect Fit if someonecan sort of hook, hook a guy up.
Cause I don't, I love, I lovethe harnesses and that's all I
recommended again in training.
So yeah, Perfect Fit aswell then, you, you reckon?

So Rhi, who does their social media, don't think
she'll mind me saying that.
So Rhi does their social media.
She's actually got a dog calledReggie who's testing a prototype
for a new size for us at the moment.
So

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, right. (45:41):
undefined
Yeah.

they've given us, you know, some harnesses for some of the
older girls that we've got at theunit, the, they bring their dogs.
I think they've helped us a lot as well,like helping us network with suppliers.
They've provided us with some of theirbiggest suppliers since we aren't, you
know, in contradiction with the productthey're selling, they've sort of said,
you know, who would love your muscles,this person who's our biggest customer.

(46:02):
And they have not.
Blinked an eye at sharing that with meand I just think it's so special that
you know, we're on the same missionYou want dogs to be served better.
So you're happy to share that like most

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, that's, that's what it's (46:13):
undefined
all about there is collaboratingisn't it and helping each other.
No, two great names there.
So yeah, watch this space.
And one final question.
If your dog or any dog could describehow they feel about their muzzle,
what do you think they'd say?
What's,

actually think that you know, my dogs would probably be like,
well, what is it doesn't matter like Yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: What, you know, what's the big deal? (46:40):
undefined
Give me, give me a treat.

I think we think muzzles are a big deal but actually
the dogs think I'm going for a walk.
Cool.

Yeah,

I, yeah, I don't think that he thinks mind blowing things.
I think he's very lucky.
He's had a great muzzle from the offset.
It's never impeded his ability todo anything that he wants to do.
And he thinks, that is part ofmy normal walking equipment.
Let's go!

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I like that. (47:05):
undefined
To them, it's a non event.
It's just part of the equipment,like a harness, a lead or collar.
Like, let's just get, let's just go.
Brilliant.
Clara, thank you so muchfor being here today.
I know how busy you are and howbusy it is at the Muzzle Movement.
Thank you to our listeners for tuningin and I'll see you next time on

(47:28):
the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily.
Bye
bye.

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