Living with a Border Collie? Join breed expert Martina Miradoli for training tips, behaviour advice & managing high-energy, herding dogs.

Welcome to Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily - the podcast for dog lovers who want to build better relationships with their dogs!

In this episode, host Nathan Dunleavy is joined by Border Collie specialist and founder of That’ll Do Academy, Martina Miradoli. If you're living with (or considering owning) a Border Collie, this episode is packed with essential advice for understanding this intelligent, driven, and sometimes challenging breed.

We discuss:

• What makes Border Collies unique
• Their work ethic, herding drive & natural instincts
• How to meet their needs without over-exercising
• How to manage behaviours like car chasing or stalking
• The importance of mental enrichment & switching off
• Training techniques that build connection & cooperation
• Common mistakes pet parents make with Border Collies
• Herding: When it’s appropriate and what to consider

Find out more about Martina Miradoli and her work at That'll Do Academy website.

If you're an ethical and qualified dog pro or pet business we'd love you to list on Yappily

Don’t forget to subscribe to Yappy Hour and leave us a review if you found this episode helpful!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered byYappily, the podcast for dog lovers
who want to build better relationshipswith their furry companions.
I'm your host Nathan Dunleavy, and intoday's episode I'm joined by the amazing
Martina Miradoli from That'll Do Academy.

(00:24):
Martina is an expert in all thingsBorder Collie and today we're diving deep
into what makes this breed so unique.
We'll explore their intelligence,energy and herding instincts and how pet
parents can best support their needs.
If you're thinking about getting aBorder Collie or already have one in

(00:46):
your life, This episode is packed withinvaluable advice to help you better
understand and connect with your dog.
So grab a cup of tea, settlein, and let's get started.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Welcome back to the Yappy (01:04):
undefined

Martina (01:06):
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Martina specializes in the collie breed. (01:25):
undefined
So I'm so excited to have her today.
She's a

Martina (01:32):
Okay.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: trainer that focuses on border collies (01:33):
undefined
through the That'll Do academy.
Martina has experiencein helping dog owners.
better understand and support thisintelligent and energetic breed.
So I'm so excited to dig deeper andI'm so excited to have Martina here.
Martina, welcome to the The Yappy Hour.

(01:54):
It's so great to haveyou here with me today.
How are you doing?
So

Martina (01:59):
and thank you for having me.
It's good to actually be interviewed,because I normally interview
other people, so I quite enjoyit today, being the one answering
questions and not asking, but I'm

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (02:10):
in

Martina (02:10):
really good, yeah.
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I'm so glad you're here. (02:14):
undefined
So brilliant.
So, martina for those who might whomay not know you yet Can you just
share a little bit about that adoacademy and what what inspired you
to specialize in broader colleagues?

Martina (02:28):
Yes.
So if probably some of you willknow that That'll Do is the end
of the work for Border Collie.
When you want to call them offsheep, we don't use their names.
We actually say That'll Do and thatmeans forget about sheep and come away.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, I had no idea. (02:41):
undefined
That's

Martina (02:42):
Okay.
Yeah.
So that's why, that's why Idecided to call it like that.
Cause of course, you know, I deal withdogs that can't switch off and can't
actually make the decision to stop.
And I specialized in 2021.
I was a bit late cause a lot ofpeople were telling me to do it during
lockdown and I was like, nah, not ready.
You know, and, and then, and then I had.

(03:04):
Because of course, you know, 2021 wasstill that kind of odd year where people
were like working from home and everythingand I had people sending me that in that
year a lot of colleagues, they didn'twant to work because I think we became
a bit more kind of, we could say a bitmore no, we learned to be a bit more, you
know, specific in what we wanted to do.

(03:24):
Colleagues will say, can you,can you see this colleague?
Can you take care?
I, I, don't have the time and everything.
So I started realizing that mycolleagues were sending me colleagues.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (03:34):
Okay,

Martina (03:35):
So I,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: a mouthful, (03:35):
undefined

Martina (03:37):
yes, I know.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (03:38):
your colleagues have said to your colleagues

Martina (03:40):
so I decided why not, why not specializing?
And at that point I've had BorderCollies since, you know, my first
Border Collie arrived in 2005.
So it's going to be.
20, 20 years now from owningmy first border Collie.
So I decided maybe, maybe I knowsomething about the breed . Yeah, and
I've been doing everything with them.
You know, I've done competitiveobedience, competitive agility,

(04:03):
herding since my very first dog.
I've trained them with sheep as well.
I've done scent work.
I've done a bit of everything.
And of course they were my petsand they were my companion.
They traveled from Italy with me.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (04:14):
because

Martina (04:15):
My first two.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (04:16):
Italy.

Martina (04:17):
Yeah.
So I moved in 2014 andthey traveled with me.
We had a car full of stuff.
We just traveled.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (04:26):
Wow, so what made you come from Italy then?
Because I imagine it's abeautiful part of the world.
And what part of Italy are you from?

Martina (04:34):
So I'm from Milan.
So I'm from a big city.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: even exotic. (04:37):
undefined

Martina (04:39):
I know.
I'm from a big city and now I'm sittingin my own farm in the middle of nowhere.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes, that's (04:45):
undefined
I'd rather that.

Martina (04:48):
Yeah, exactly.
So yeah, I just well, my, my dad, so thefirst time I actually acknowledged Borg
Collies was when I was very little andwe went on holidays to Ireland and the
UK because my dad was very passionateabout everything that was British and
Irish, everything about these two islands.
And, and the, you know, when they giveyou coloured books to colour when you're

(05:11):
a kid in restaurants and my mum hasstill got a couple of them and there's
one where, where there's a kid like.
having a dream.
And I've put sheep and I've puta black and white dog in that.
But I was like, I don't know, eight.
I didn't even know what I was doing.
And then my mom is like, look at this.
You were already drawing

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (05:28):
Yeah,

Martina (05:28):
because I, I, yeah, because I was seeing them in the, you
know so yeah, so it started there.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (05:34):
that.

Martina (05:36):
I manifested it, yes.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (05:37):
Oh wow.
Oh, that's so exciting.
So Martina, what is it about BorderCollies that fascinates you the most?

Martina (05:46):
So again, the first time I actually learned what Border Collies
were, is when I was coming to thiscountry as, as a kid with my parents
and I remember seeing them moving sheep.
And I didn't even like dogs at the timebecause I was a horse person, a horse,
horse kid at the time, horse and cats.
I didn't have dogs at the time.
But that's, I think that's the thingthat always fascinated me is, is their

(06:08):
ability to drive to the job they have.
And even when I got my first BorderCollie, and I still didn't know that it
was possible to actually, in Italy, trainthem with sheep, I, you know, I wanted
a Border Collie because they were thosedogs that were moving sheep in the UK.
So I think that's always the thing thatfascinated me, and I was in horses before

(06:30):
I was in dogs, and I love training.
And I used to, you know, rideat quite high level in horses
as well, I was doing dressage.
So I've always liked Yeah, I've alwaysliked to, to, to have a relationship
with animals with a higher kind ofintelligence where you can do, where
you can train higher skills together.

(06:52):
So when I looked into what breeds, thenthey were the one that were described
as you can do everything with them.
You can do agility, you can dothis dog, you can do freestyle,
you can do, you can do everything.
You know, they herd sheep all day andthey go and gather sheep on the hill.
So.
that, that was similar to thehorses I was working with.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, oh wow. (07:09):
undefined
Aren't they the most, aren't theythe most intelligent breed, Collies?
of all

Martina (07:16):
I'm not sure.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: what they say? (07:16):
undefined
I think

Martina (07:18):
They,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: are second and (07:18):
undefined

Martina (07:19):
yeah, I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: but I don't know how true that is. (07:21):
undefined

Martina (07:23):
think there are different types of intelligence.
I think that's the study.
I can't remember.
I read it many, many years ago.
And I think they are the most intelligentand in a way that they, they can be
trained at high level and they canbe trained at high details and, and,
and skills, as we all know, you know,freestyle and, you know, all the dancing
dogs that know millions behaviours.

(07:45):
So yeah, I think they canbe trained at a high level.
Now put one of them in the woods,they'll probably wouldn't survive.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, okay. (07:51):
undefined

Martina (07:52):
They're not, you know, they're not good hunters at all.
So they have, they have theirown qualities, but yeah.
So

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (07:59):
Oh, wow.
That's really interesting.
Thank you.
So moving on to our next section isunderstanding the border collie mindset.
Border collies are knownfor their intelligence.
We've just mentioned thatand their work ethic.
But what does that really meanfor a day to day life with them?

Martina (08:19):
they are driven to work.
They are driven, driven to do something.
They want to constantlybe doing something.
So they are dogs that as soon asyou get up, They're up and they're
like, okay, what are we doing now?
I can't, in the morning, I wake upin the morning, I have my breakfast,
they, they, they have the breakfast, Ihave my breakfast, and then the moment

(08:40):
they read my body language so well,and that's, that's, that's a thing
that is very sometimes difficult forpeople, they read my body language, as
soon as they understand that that's mylast sip of coffee, they're up at the
door, and like, my young one is pushingat the door like that, like, come on,
come on, come on, let's go out, let'sgo out, because they love the routine.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (08:58):
Right.

Martina (08:59):
So we go in the paddock and then they play and you know, I walk around
with them and I make them run so theyhave that half an hour of burning energies
in the morning before I start my workor I start doing things around the farm.
So I think, I think that driveis what is, yeah, is what really
people don't realise they have.

(09:21):
You know, they think, oh yeah,it's going to be a puppy, it's
going to be this and that.
My six months old puppy just nowfinished teething, finished that
kind of little bit sensitivephase, and I can see the drive now.
You know, I can see it.
I can't wait to train her onsheep because she needs it.
And, and

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: something to do. (09:36):
undefined
Yeah.

Martina (09:39):
her, I'm doing a lot of tricks training and shaping and other things
but she needs to start and at sixmonths old you can start seeing the
amount of work she will need becauseshe's really on all the time and she
wants to do, you know, she's constantlyasking you let's do this, let's do that.
So the drive I think is, is, is what,is the drive to do and the drive
to be useful as well is, is what.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (10:02):
yeah.
How many colleagues do you have, Martina?

Martina (10:06):
I have five.
Five?
Yes, five.
Yeah, so we have eight dogs.
Yeah, we have eight dogs in total.
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: seven, so you've (10:17):
undefined

Martina (10:18):
Oh, well,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (10:18):
me.

Martina (10:19):
yes Yeah, so they go from six months old to 14

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (10:28):
Lovely,

Martina (10:29):
yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: So I was just, it's going to come to (10:30):
undefined
one of our questions, but I was justthinking that for, like, a pet parent
or a guardian to bring a border colliepuppy into their lives, their home, they
really need to understand the breed anddo their research, you know, because

Martina (10:47):
yes,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: think, oh, it's a puppy. (10:48):
undefined
And then like you say, they needto be given something to do.
So what are the most what are someof the most common misconceptions
people have about border collies?

Martina (11:01):
so I think that The, the, the, the one that, that
we're talking about before, thefact that they're so intelligent,
people think they're easy to train.
And because you see them on TV andthey have, they have these amazing
skills and it looks like it's easy.
So I think everyone thinks, oh yeah,I'll get a botacoli because they're easy.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (11:20):
Right,

Martina (11:21):
And for some reason, people think that they're good for
children because they are playful.
But it's not always the case.
Sometimes, you know, it isactually more challenging if
you've got kids in the home.
And I think, I think the bordercollie breed has changed a lot in
the last 10 years, 10, 20 years.
And I think a lot of peoplehad them when they were kids.

(11:41):
If they are our age, they might havehad them when they were kids and their
parents or their grandparents had aBorder Collie and the type of Border
Collie that was more available 20years ago was a different type of dog.
than the one we have now,which is changing, you know.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (11:55):
have

Martina (11:56):
So I think that some people remember the old Boricolli that was happy
to just sit and wait to go for a walk, andbut nowadays are bred to be more driven
and quicker to work, so they're bred tohave a quicker switch on to work because
there is a lot of trade around Boricollis.

(12:16):
You know, people do it for a living.
They buy them as puppies, theystart them, they sell them, you
know, at ten or twelve years old.
months old, fully trained on sheep.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (12:25):
Wow.

Martina (12:25):
that means that they have more drive and they have more prey.
You know, chase instinct because theyhave to be starting a bit quicker and
be ready quicker than, than, you know,in, in the old days they say, Oh, you
know, bought a collie wouldn't workuntil he was, you know, a year and a
half or two, you know, they will taketheir time to train them while nowadays
they're fully trained at 10 months old.

(12:47):
So you have to breedsomething that can take that.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow, that's, that's amazing. (12:49):
undefined
so for those pet parents thatare considering a border collie,
what should they know beforebringing one into their home?

Martina (13:02):
So first thing is I would.
Suggest to look at the breed as awhole because of course the more
available one are the workingborder collies everyone is a farm.
around where they live and theythink that the easiest thing is
to go and buy a puppy from a farm.
But the random farm that breeds towork doesn't have the selection for

(13:24):
a dog that is suitable to pet living.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (13:26):
Yeah.

Martina (13:27):
suggestion is to actually go out and look at the options you have is not
always the best option to go to a farm.
It's a bit more, you know, it's prettierwith more coat, but they are bred to
actually be more calm and has less drivebecause they're bred to appear nice.

(13:47):
Yeah, and probably some people arebreeding more for pets types or,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (13:53):
Yeah.

Martina (13:59):
straight away.
So do your research.
What kind of collie are you taking home?
Are you going to,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (14:05):
yeah.

Martina (14:11):
mountains to work on.
They live in the middle of nowhere andit might have been generation of dogs
that live in the middle of nowhere.
What they're selecting is adog that, yeah, it's a bit
noise sensitive, who cares?
We are in the middle of nowhere.
They need a lot of exercise.
They've got mountains to work on.
But if you're taking that intoManchester, that can be a problem.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, into a big city. (14:32):
undefined
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine.
So I was walking at Border Collieat one point, and I think this is
a common thing that you probablyknow what I'm about to say is that
it chases, it used to chase cars.
Coming up, we'd walk out of her houseand it was like, like a bit of a, a hill.
And in the end I had to parkquite outside her house because

(14:55):
at that point I wasn't training.
I was, I was doing dog walking.
So I didn't understand, butshe used to chase the cars.
So I guess that's her, that's her innatesort of, that's her makeup, isn't it?
To sort of do something like that.

Martina (15:09):
Yeah, so border collies chase cars for two main reasons.
One is, of course, you know,they see something that moves
and they want to control it.
But then there is another reason thatI see very often, which is actually is
driven by fear of the noise of the car.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, okay. (15:23):
undefined
That's

Martina (15:25):
Yeah, because border collies have that need to control
and when they are afraid ofsomething, they tend to control it.
A lot of border collie will sharkaround other dogs or things that they're
not sure about and that's the way toactually control what they're scared of.
So I see sometimes border colliesactually start chasing cars
because they hear this noise.

(15:46):
they hear this, they see this bigthing moving, they don't know what
it is, and then they want to stopit, they want to control it, because
that makes them feel better about it.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (15:55):
I see.
Okay.
Yeah,

Martina (15:57):
these are the two main reasons that, that they will stop.
But there's definitely some that willchase, or will want to chase cars, because
they just, they're on a lead, they getfrustrated, something is going past very
fast, and they just want to stop it.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (16:13):
Yep.
And they have better hearingthan us as dogs, so they can hear
these loud noises, like you say.
And there's a lot of themgoing up and down the road.
So to the

Martina (16:22):
Yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: dog, it's like, oh, my (16:23):
undefined
God, like what's going on?
yeah.

Martina (16:29):
I have my, at the moment I've got my iPhone earphones on, which are
completely, you know, soundproofed.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (16:36):
Yeah,

Martina (16:37):
And I don't know how, but if I'm listening, if I'm watching
a video of sheepdog trainingquite loud because I'm, and, and
Tay's in the room, he can hear it.
You can hear the whistle in the video.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (16:48):
right.

Martina (16:48):
know how so if, even if I try to watch it without earphones and I put
it at the minimum level, he still hearsthe whistling and he will start, you
know, standing up and looking around andlooking at me and then looking out the
window and expecting sheep to be there.
So that's the level of hearing they have.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (17:05):
Amazing.
Absolutely

Martina (17:07):
so yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (17:08):
And for our listeners, because again, it's
another question I don't really knowthe answer to, and I probably should,
but for our listeners, like when theirborder collie stalks goes down low, you
just explain what's happening there?
Yeah.
Yeah.

Martina (17:25):
Collies are the only three breeds that work with the eye.
All the other herding breeds will workwith the bark or with body pressure
or just with their movement, but thecollies work with their eye, which
means that they use the prey sequence,which starts with, you know, eyeing
the prey and stalking the prey.
They behave, I've, I've, I've, it's somuch fun when I watch some documentary

(17:47):
of wolves because you can see the wolfmoving, ready to pounce on a prey and
it looks like One of my colleaguesthat have no coat and got pricked ears.
They move the same way, youknow, they look like predators.
And that stance, ofcourse, startles the sheep.
And that starts moving and they startreacting to what we call the pressure.
They put pressure on thelivestock with that stance.

(18:09):
And that stance that I is used to control.
They control sheep that way, so theywill move left and right, and with
the movement and the eyes constantlyon the prey, the sheep will actually
move to get away from that pressure,and that's how they control flocks.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (18:26):
Right.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
So interesting.
So moving on to our next section isthe needs of a high energy breed.
So we know that Border Collies thriveon both physical and mental stimulation.
What are some of your favouriteways to meet those needs?

Martina (18:47):
Okay, so first thing with Border Collies is that we need to try
not to give them too much of a routine.
And of course in a fa on a farm,it's easier because, you know, I have
my fields and I have this and that.
But when you, when you live ina, in a home and you know, you
don't have, you don't have thesame kind of rhythm all the time.
If you create a big routine thatthey will want it all the time.

(19:10):
So I always try, when I used tolive in a house, well, even now,
like today, they had no walk.
I always try to.
mix and match what they do.
I don't do the same thing every day.
I don't expect, I don't ask them to do it.
I don't expect them to wantlike three hour walk every day.
There's some days where we do a bigwalk and there's some days where we
do a lot of training and there's a daywhere we go for a walk on a lead and

(19:32):
there's a day where we do, you know,we go to class and there's a day where.
We go shopping.
I don't know that every time there is,there needs to be something different.
Give them different things to do.
Don't just do one thing.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (19:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Martina (19:52):
So if you're planning to have a border collie to just have a walk
around the block is not going to work,they're going to end up into troubles.
So they need high, high exercise,like high intensity exercise,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (20:04):
Yeah.

Martina (20:05):
and that can be going running with them, that can be taking them
swimming, that can be play of course withthem, although I'm not a big fan of ball
throwing and ball chucking a lot, but ifthat's twice a week where they burn energy
in 10 15 minutes and they, they sometimesneed it they need a lot of training.

(20:25):
Their brain needs to be stimulated a lot.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: ball throwing has been being (20:27):
undefined
repetitive, not good on their joints.
Is that and that's a

Martina (20:32):
It's not good on their joints and it's not good on their adrenaline level.
They, they, they just want more.
I'm working at the moment with twodifferent ones from different places,
different ages, but similar problembecause that's the main exercise they
get, ball throwing, ball throwing,ball throwing, they can't switch off.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's a bit obsessive (20:52):
undefined

Martina (20:53):
Yes, he's obsessive.
And then this, yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (20:56):
and I think has pet owners, pet parents like,
like we probably don't know no different.
We think that's okay because we see itand we think that's okay to throw a ball.
But really it's probably have moreof an adverse effect on the dog.

Martina (21:12):
yeah.
And don't get me wrong.
You know, you can do it, but the wayyou do it and when you start doing
it, I would never do it with a puppy.
I would wait until they're fullygrown and they're a bit older.
So my puppy saw, played with a, witha ball, like me chucking the ball,
her play, chasing and bringing itback for the first time last week
or this week or this day, last week.

(21:33):
She's six months old.
She has a good retrieve.
She wants to share the toy with me.
She knows that, you know, she gets,you know, the toys about me and her.
So at this point, throwing the balla couple of times, she'll bring it
back, sit in my lap and give it to me.
It's not an obsessive thing.
She's not waiting for me to throw it.

(21:54):
because we've built a routine alreadywhere she sits and waits or I hold the
collar, I throw the toy out, I wait forthe toy to stop, then she goes and chases
it, then she brings it back to my hand,and then we do a bit of training, and
then I throw the toy again, and then I askher some behaviour, so the ball becomes
part of a game between me and her ratherthan me just being a a ball chucker.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (22:15):
I think that then also helps improve your
bond and your relationship, that play.

Martina (22:21):
yeah, exactly.
So yeah, so you know, it's importantthough that they have some high intensity

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (22:26):
Mm.

Martina (22:28):
because they need it.
You know, if they can't go work in sheepwhere they really use all their energies
and all their power, both mental andphysical, then they need to have it.
So yes, agility is good.
Fly ball could be good.
Other sports, centaur sport.
is good, but, you know, play needsto be, play is probably the best way

(22:48):
to give them that kind of outlet.
But it needs to be done the proper way.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's great. (22:53):
undefined
Thank you.
Martina, how can pet parents provideappropriate outlets without over
exercising or over stimulating their dog?

Martina (23:04):
I think giving, again, giving them like, in, for example, in the house,
I have toys available for them, but Idon't do a lot of toy play in the house.
So in the house is more relaxing time.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (23:15):
Yes.
I'm

Martina (23:16):
that's a big rule.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (23:18):
Yeah.

Martina (23:18):
and I, and they have toys.
because I have multiple dogs, ofcourse, so they have to be available.
They sometimes play with each other,especially the young dogs, but
they know that I'm not part of it.
So that if then the other dogs don't wantto play, the young ones learn to settle.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (23:32):
Mm.

Martina (23:33):
so the houses settle time.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I'm big on that. (23:35):
undefined
The house is all calm andactivity, settle time, but

Martina (23:38):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you can maybe have the more sort of (23:39):
undefined

Martina (23:41):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (23:42):
yeah.

Martina (23:42):
Yeah.
And then maybe one of the heartof the room, like the kitchen, for
example, could be the training place.
Cause of course you have tobe doing training indoor.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (23:50):
Yes.

Martina (23:51):
it's more like it's the kitchen.
So.
Then the living room where you sit downon your sofa and you want to relax.
There's no play involvedin the living room.
They need to learn.
Some of them need to learn to switch off.
Not all of them.
Some of them are reallygood, but some have to learn.
So to me, using a pen and using acrate to teach them that there is
switch off time, it's important.
I'll tell you, for example.

(24:11):
I talk about my dogs a lotin my podcast and everything.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (24:13):
That's

Martina (24:14):
one of my, yeah, one of my, so I have now, since I moved to the
farm, I have got two new Border Collies.
So Kite arrived in February, so he's ayear old, and Tali is six months old.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (24:28):
Oh,

Martina (24:29):
Now, they are completely opposite, they could be two different
breeds, in temperament and everything.
Clyde took nearly a year tolearn to settle in the house.
And he's not a housedog, he sleeps in kennel.
I mean, he comes in the house, butthen when I'm, when I'm here working
or, you know, I'm doing somethingthat I can't keep an eye on the
dogs, he goes back to his kennel.
And he's the happiest dog in the world outthere, because he's able to switch off.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (24:53):
Mm.

Martina (24:54):
In a house where I've got cats, I've got the other dogs, I go in and
out, it's too much stimulation for him.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (25:01):
Yes.

Martina (25:03):
So, some dogs, not all of them, Tali's completely the opposite,
she's six months old, she's still inthe house and she settles very nicely
in the house, she doesn't have a crateanymore, apart from during the night but
some dogs really need that kind of spacewhere they completely can switch off.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (25:18):
Mm.

Martina (25:19):
So it's important to plan that in advance

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (25:22):
Yeah.

Martina (25:23):
and create a space where you don't keep going in and out, where you
don't have cats and kids running in, whereyou don't have other dogs bothering them.
That place where they can go andjust switch off because they need
that as a breed, they need to, morethan others, because otherwise their
brain is developed, has been selectedto constantly be active and work.

(25:44):
And if their surrounding is constantlymovement, there's always movement kids
and cats and other dogs and peoplegoing in and out, then they, some
of them will not be able to settle.
So, giving them that settling time andthat settling space is very important.
Because I think that sometimes, and Iget that often in my students, you know,

(26:04):
like, how much does your puppy sleep?
Oh, she doesn't sleep,she's up and about all day.
That's why we have problems.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Puppies need about 18 hours, (26:12):
undefined
18, 20 hours sleep, don't they?

Martina (26:17):
Yes, yes, exactly.
So, yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: They can't be always on the go. (26:21):
undefined
Perfect.
So are there any creativeenrichment activities that work
particularly well for Border Collies?

Martina (26:30):
I have to say, my favourite thing is just teaching
as many behaviours as you want.
Now, I, I am not, I, I'm going totalk about this a little bit because
there is, there is a game that youcan teach them, where you can teach
them to stalk a bull, and thatlooks like they're stalking a sheep.
Now, I've tried it with myown dogs, they don't care.

(26:52):
And I have, they don'tcare, they just don't care.
I like to teach my dogs to, as I saidalready, share a toy with me and, and
bring it back to me and we do a bitof tug and I might throw it out or we
might just, you might just chase it.
So I'm not a big fan of alternativeherding and stalking games.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (27:12):
I

Martina (27:12):
And, yeah, and you might find undercollege specialists
that do that as their main thing.
Everyone is different.
I've had border collie for 20 years.
My dogs have seen sheep, but notenough to say they've always worked.
They are used to living in a big city.
And
My colleague that is now 14 years oldis one of the strongest dog I've ever

(27:34):
had in prey drive and need to work.
You know, he needed a farm.
I didn't have it.
Too difficult for me to handle onthe sheep, it was got too much drive.
So from three years old, up to nowthat he's 14, he's not practiced his
stalking abilities, and he's stillbeen a very happy dog, because I
provide the training, play, scentwork activity and enrichment activity.

(27:58):
So your Border Collie doesn'tneed activities to stalk and herd.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (28:03):
Yeah.

Martina (28:13):
to listen to requests and, and love to do things for you.
So, there is not one thing, and I don'tthink that every border collie has
to hurt, and has to stalk things tobe happy, but they need to definitely
Feel like they're doing a job.
So for my, for, forMoss, agility was a job.
You know, you can see in hisface, it wasn't just enjoyment.

(28:36):
It was a job.
It was sit in the front of the firstjump and he would attack that course.
Like, you know, like he was workingon the mountains to collect the sheep.
It was, it was a job for him.
So they need, they need, they needto, they need to have that brain
stimulated and you can't just teachthem, sit down and stand and stay,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (28:55):
Nah,

Martina (28:55):
they have to learn constantly,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (28:58):
Yeah.

Martina (28:58):
behaviours.
behaviors.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (29:00):
Sounds like about just having those appropriate
additional outlets to keep them engaged.

Martina (29:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So so yeah it's not a specific thing,but scent work is a great thing because
scent work, for example, is teachingthem, is giving them something to work.
They definitely work when they sniff a lotand they go in high intensity sniffing.
They do use a lot of energies.
then the end result offinding something is play.
If you teach it that way, and I dopersonally, I teach them that after

(29:29):
they found something for me, thenwe play for a good few minutes.
And because they're using theirnose, for example, instead of their
eyes, then they're not learning,you know, they're using a sense that
phlebotocollis is not as natural andis helping counteracting the eye.
which can get him into trouble.
So I use scent work a lot fordogs that go around stalking

(29:53):
and looking for things to stalk.
Actually teaching them to do some scentwork in those situations is very useful.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, love scent work. (30:00):
undefined
Perfect.
Thank you so much.
So moving on to our next section,and that's the challenges
of owning a border collie.
Sorry, my dog's led onmy, my questions there.
So border collies come, sometimes strugglewith over overstimulation or frustration.
How can owners start to recognize theearly signs and respond appropriately?

(30:24):
Okay.
Okay.

Martina (30:33):
to, to know how a dog is not able to, you know, The
dog that cannot pay attention.
You know, when you start taking yourpuppy out, and you are trying to get your
puppy attention, and they are lookingaround, stalking something, not taking
your treats, pulling on a lead, goingall crazy every time there is something

(30:55):
appearing in the environment, this isthe first time that your puppy shouldn't
be put in that situation until you havebetter focus skills and you have better
You know, training tools to be able tohave a puppy that is paying attention.
And that's where problems start arising.
We have a puppy.
We take them out on the walkbecause we have to socialize them.

(31:16):
But that puppy that is bred to startnoticing the environment and the
movement in the environment thatdoesn't have any skills to be able to
pay attention to the owner is goingto start looking at things that move.
And that's how, forexample, car chasing starts.
Because they are on the road,suddenly something goes past
very fast and they look at it.

(31:37):
And they are like, Ooh, andthen they are on the lead.
So they can't actuallyperform the behaviour.
And then they start pulling andthen they start getting frustrated.
Do you and the majorityof owners don't see that?
I see, you know, when you drive asa dog trainer, you drive your car

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes, I know what (31:55):
undefined

Martina (31:55):
and

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (31:56):
say.

Martina (31:57):
Yeah, and then you look, oh, there's a Border Collie, and I see this
little puppy on a harness that is notsuitable for that puppy on a flex lead

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (32:04):
Oh God.

Martina (32:05):
an old person that is already staring at my car going past.
And the owners are not even aware becausethey're chatting with each other and
this puppy is already stalking cars.
That puppy is four or fivemonths old when he reaches a
year old and he weights 20 kilos.
And he's still on the flex lead.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: person over. (32:23):
undefined

Martina (32:23):
Yes, this is where it starts, but nobody.
realizes until it's a big problem.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (32:31):
I thought you were going to say that.
I mean, you probably look out forBorder Collies, but I find that I
just look at other people's dogs.
I see people out walkingtheir dogs and I'm.
I'm fascinated.
I just look at the dog and I'm like, oh,

Martina (32:45):
Yes, I'm a bit of a Border Collie myself, so I'm a bit obsessed.
So I normally, if it'sa dog, I just let it go.
But if it's a Border Collie, Istop and look at the behaviour
and I'm like, yeah, look at that.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (32:54):
I mean, that's a good idea to do that, isn't it?
Because you specialize in that breed.
So, I mean, I've got toypoodles and chihuahuas.
So obviously, like, you know, Isee tons of like poodle crosses and

Martina (33:06):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (33:07):
yeah, I just find myself looking at people's dogs.
They must think I'm crazy.
So how do you behave in pet homes?
Can be very challenging.
What's your advice formanaging them safely?

Martina (33:21):
So the first thing is, as soon as you have just a bit of suspicion
that your puppy is performing herdingbehaviours towards your cat, your kids,
your neighbor's kids, a car, a bike, arunner, and that means that they might
look at the something that is comingclose and then they pounce forward or they

(33:45):
stalk, their head goes down and they looklike they are kind of hypnotized by that.
That's the first sign that youshould contact a dog trainer.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (33:55):
Right.

Martina (33:56):
that understands that because I get, again, Everyone
has their specialities, wecan't be good at everything.
If someone comes to me with separationanxiety, I send them to someone else.
Because it's not my specialty.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, that's one of my specialities. (34:08):
undefined

Martina (34:10):
Yeah so I'll add you to my list of people that I
know might send names out.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (34:14):
Yeah.

Martina (34:22):
and manage it from the beginning, which means not exposing your puppy
to situations that can provoke theirbehaviour again, until you've done some
training to prevent their behaviour.
It's going to just escalate.
It's not going to get better.
So don't hope that Border Collies grow,you know, and I hear it all the time.
Oh, they'll grow out of it.
Just sit on a chair on the, on a, ona bench next to a busy road and just

(34:45):
leave them there for two hours with you.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (34:47):
Oh,

Martina (34:47):
No.
No, the way Border Collies trigger,I'll tell you how I triggered my
six month old puppy to work sheep.
She wasn't interested in sheep, so Itook her with me every time I trained my
other dogs and I allowed her to watch.
Guess what?
One day she went like, Oh, I like that.
So I went in with her and shesuddenly started chasing sheep.

(35:07):
that's how they develop the chase and thewanting to work is allowing them to watch.
So now every time there is sheep Istop and I allow her to watch and
I see her head going down, her bumgoing up, and she starts having
that shape of a border collie.
So allowing them to look at movementhappening is the best way to develop
that behaviour, not to get them past it.

(35:30):
And I think there's thismisconception yet, still.
You know, a lot of dog trainers, as wellas owners that trust those dog trainers.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: sounds a bit like you can do that (35:39):
undefined
engage disengage game, can't you?

Martina (35:43):
Yes.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Letting them sort of engage and then the (35:44):
undefined

Martina (35:47):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (35:48):
yeah,

Martina (35:49):
Yeah.
So I'm, I'm a ControlUnleashed instructor as well.
So I'm, I've done my, my certificationin 2020 with Lesley McDevitt.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (35:56):
yes
yes,

Martina (35:58):
So yeah, I use the look at that game and all the pattern game to
help dogs filter in the environmentthrough focused based games.
So that they learn that, okay, yeah,there is, there is traffic far away, but
we are here and we are learning to engagewith me while disengaging from traffic.
And the sooner you start that process.

(36:21):
The suit, you know, the betterit is for, for little puppies or
dogs that start noticing movement.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (36:27):
Mm.

Martina (36:28):
yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (36:28):
Okay.
Brilliant.
Thank you.
So how can, how do you help BorderCollie pet parents teach their
dogs to switch off and relax?

Martina (36:40):
so the first thing that I always say to everyone that asks me that
question is, you can, your dog cannotbe relaxed and switch off unless they've
had appropriate exercise and training.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (36:50):
Mm

Martina (36:51):
no relaxation without appropriate exercise and training.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (36:54):
mm.

Martina (36:55):
so just doing calming games.
or giving them a chew or givingthem a kong is not going to make
them relax if they have excessenergy, both brain and body.
So make sure that you meet their needs andthey get enough exercise in an appropriate
and safe way and enough training.
Now after that is teaching them a routine.

(37:15):
So for young dogs, I take them out fora walk, I take them out for training,
they go to the toilet, they go back totheir crate or their pen, they get a
chew, they get a kong, and they learn toswitch off after they've done exercise.
So that they learn that after theyhad like adrenaline time, because
they've been out playing and trainingand doing that, then I allow them
an activity that calms them down.
and helps them calm down, becauseotherwise, the problem of a lot

(37:38):
of Border Collie is that they'renot able to calm down on their
own and they need that input.
So allowing them to chew on somethingthat will last them a bit, or to give
them a frozen Kong with food in it thatwill last them a bit, then is allowing
the adrenaline to go down in that timethat they're chewing, and then they find
themselves in the crate or in the pen,and it's much easier for them to then

(38:01):
say, okay, now I've had enough, I've donemy exercise, I've done my training, I've
done my enrichment, then I go for a nap.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (38:08):
Silence.

Martina (38:12):
all the training that you can do to help that, which is teaching
them to relax on a bed and promotingrelaxation through training, so that
they learn actually standing still andputting their head on their legs, on
their front feet, and, you know, thatkind of promoting The, the attitude of
relaxation through training in the housecan also improve or make, make that

(38:35):
relaxation a bit quicker, but some dogstakes ages to, to get to that level.
My, you know, one year old, it tookhim nearly a year to learn to actually
switch off in the house, which meantthat if I had to switch him off, I
had to put him in a place where hecould switch off rather than allowing
him to do it on his own in the house.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, yeah, sometimes you've got (38:53):
undefined
to sort of help them, haven't you?
You've got to show them thatsometimes they can't sort
of self regulate themselves.
So you kind of need to sort of,

Martina (39:03):
Exactly.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: them to do that. (39:04):
undefined
Brilliant.
So that's really great.
So we're going to move on to ournext section, which is training
for connection and cooperation.
So what training approacheswork best for Border Collies?
given their intelligence and sensitivity?

Martina (39:23):
Well, definitely has to be positive.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Absolutely. (39:27):
undefined

Martina (39:29):
But it shouldn't be permissive in a way that you don't want to just drop all
your boundaries and your, you know, likethey need to have some boundaries still.
They need to know that some things arenot allowed, like my puppies learned
that they're not allowed to bitethe cats and chase the cats and eat
the cats like they're sheep from thebeginning, you know, because they have

(39:50):
to live with the cats in the kitchen.
I, you know, and so positivetraining, a lot of play, I
like to teach them to think.
So I do shaping and capturing.
So I have a sequence of exercisesthat start from teaching them to put
their feet in a box and then go arounda cone and then you know, go on a,

(40:11):
on a mat and then I develop otherbehaviours that are used for fitness
in the feet when they're a bit older.
teaching them to think how toobtain something rather than
just provide it for them.
You know, there's a box in frontof you, I've got a treat here,
I've got my clicker, what canyou do to obtain that food?
And they start offering behavioursbecause they have the brain for it,

(40:34):
and then they learn that Yeah, get themthinking and learn and make them learn
that actually, if they produce a certainbehaviour, then the rewards comes.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (40:44):
Yes.

Martina (40:44):
So that they start offering the good behaviour or trying to offer
something in order to be rewarded.
So I really like shaping forthat reason with colleagues.
I do use a lot of Primark.
with them, which is probably a bitmore advanced for most pet people, but
I like to explain it to, to owners.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, definitely. (41:04):
undefined

Martina (41:06):
We train, Primack principle states that a behaviour that is unlikely
to happen often gets rewarded by, I'msorry, a behaviour that is, that is
unlikely to happen, or the dog doesn'twant to do, gets reinforced by the
behaviour that the dogs want to do.
So instead of using the actualreward, you can use behaviours
to reinforce other behaviours.
And this is how we train them on sheep.
We don't have treats.

(41:26):
We don't have a clicker.
We don't have toys.
If you lie down, you can walk on.
If you come away with thesheep, you can go back to them.
If you turn left and you give space tothe sheep, then you can bring them to me.
So they learn with, if you dosomething that you don't want to do
because your instinct is telling youto do opposite, then I let you do

(41:47):
what you want to do, which is whatyour instinct is telling you to do.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (41:50):
Yeah,

Martina (41:50):
that way we call is even in everyday life works really well.
to teach them like, you know, if Ineed to remove the lid before you
can run off, you can sit calmly.
And instead of jumping on thedoor to get out, you can sit
quietly while I open the door.
So teaching them thatbehaviour produce behaviours,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (42:09):
Yes.

Martina (42:11):
and that sometimes is more powerful than any treats.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, perfect. (42:14):
undefined
How important is relationshipbuilding when working with this braid?

Martina (42:22):
Yes, so it's, it's.
It's important, like, I think, withany dog, but some Border Collies,
you know, that's why I always, mypartner, I'm laughing because my
partner, today, my one year oldthat used to be a very independent
dog, now he's like my second skin.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, okay. (42:41):
undefined

Martina (42:42):
He was very, when he came, I was like, oh no, an
independent dog, I can't stand them.
I just want dogs that are easy totrain, that wants to be with you.
And now, if I'm sitting in thekitchen, he's on me, like, he
sits on my lap, and, you know.
like a Velcro dog.
So they, they do become Velcro dogif you have the right relationship.
And that is so much easier thanhaving a dog that doesn't want

(43:04):
to be a Velcro because of course,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's interesting. (43:06):
undefined

Martina (43:08):
yes, because of course, if you have a dog that is so interested
in environment, you need to have adog that wants to be with you so that
then, you know, my, as I said, myone year old kite, we go for a walk
and he's in front of me jumping andlooking at me jumping and looking at me.
It's a bit obsessive, but thatdoesn't make him chase after hairs.

(43:28):
or disappear into the woodslooking for deer, you know,
it helps in keeping with me.
And we build that through relationship andthat relationship also come through work.
So you can, you know, they, they dotrust you and they do want to be with you
once they know that they work for you.
whatever that work is.
That's why training is importantwith them because the breed has been

(43:50):
bred on that work in relationshipwith the, with the shepherds.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (43:54):
Mm.
Mm.

Martina (43:56):
So it's so important.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you were saying, did something (43:58):
undefined
happen with him in today?
You said he was sat withyou or something, or?
Oh,

Martina (44:02):
Yeah, today it was so I was waiting for my partner to finish lunch
and everyone else was like Yeah, Ilie down in the kitchen and he was
sitting on me with his paws on myshoulder and his head like wrapped
around my neck and she turns aroundand looks and is like, it's disgusting.
It just has to be a second skin.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I see what you mean now, yeah. (44:23):
undefined

Martina (44:25):
Yeah, it is like that.
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: oh, I love it though. (44:27):
undefined
I wouldn't want it any other way.
What, would be the mistake thatyou see Border Collie Pet parents
making border collie guardiansmaking when it comes to training.
Mmm.

Martina (44:54):
of idea that Border Collies are not food motivated dogs.
I've never had one that didn't, youknow, if they came to me not food
motivated, there was a health issue.
And when we got past thathealth issue, then the food
motivation came and was there.
And I think that the biggestproblem is because they're so busy.
they sometimes forget to take the treat,they forget to eat, finish their dinner.

(45:19):
And instead of making sure that whenyou offer a treat, and when you give
them their dinner, they're able totake it and to finish it, they either
start putting too much pressure on thefact that they have to eat, or they
have to take the treat, or they putthe value up, because they have to

(45:39):
eat, they're puppies, they have to eat.
And The biggest issue I have when Ihave owners coming to me is that their
Border Collies don't want to work forfood because of these two reasons.
So then I have to work hard to putfood motivation back into the dog that
sees food as a kind of a sort like,like, like a bit of a poison, you know.

(46:01):
Oh, no, you're going to put so muchpressure on me because they are
sensitive dogs to take that treat.
So that must be, youknow, I don't want it.
And And yeah, instead of, like, if theyhave to eat, just put them in a situation
where they can finish their dinner.
And if you're offering treats, youneed to make sure that they are in a
situation to be able to take treats.
And sometimes when they'repuppies, they're not.

(46:22):
They have,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (46:22):
Yeah.

Martina (46:35):
is the last of their problems, but we try, you know, and everyone
tries their best to try because, youknow, training with food is good and
they try, but then that way you poison.
the food for them, for them.
So, offer food when they are able totake it, to start with, and put them
in a situation to be able to take food.
And when they can't, then try to manageit, don't, don't force treats on them.

(47:00):
And that way, then when they growa bit, and they can pay attention
more, and they can focus more, thenyou haven't put You know, that kind
of bad emotion into, into food.
And I think that's, and the secondthing would be ball playing, probably.
Too much ball play, too muchball play, and then not enough
relationship play, just ball play.
And then, if there's no ball,then they don't pay attention.

(47:22):
They don't come back for a recall.
You know, they just go and do theirown things as the ball goes away.
So train first and then teach play in amore kind of, in a relationship way and
then the ball can come in the future whenthey're a bit older and they have a good
recall and they, you know, they, they knowhow to bring a toy back and enjoy the toy
with you rather than just throw it at yourfeet and back off to wait on the throw.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (47:46):
Right.
Okay.
Thank you.
Wow.
We literally sailed throughthis episode literally packed
with information and advice.
It's so interesting.
For the last sort of five toseven minutes, I'm gonna just
ask you some remaining sort ofthree or four questions if I may.

(48:07):
So Martina.
what's the most rewarding partof working with Border Collies?

Martina (48:16):
So I, I think that once they get Once, once the owner and the dog
understand each other, it's seeing that,and, and see their relationship growing
and seeing that kind of drive that wetalked about at the beginning channeled

(48:36):
into doing something for the owner.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (48:39):
Mm.

Martina (48:39):
Once that is achieved, then it's amazing to see how
much The owners enjoy training

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (48:48):
Mm.

Martina (48:48):
dogs enjoy working for the owner.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (48:52):
Mm.

Martina (48:53):
So once they get to that point where they understand how to
engage with their dogs and how to,how to make that work like being a
job for the dog, then, then that's it.
That's, that's, that's.
That's the best thing in the world.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, brilliant. (49:08):
undefined
And I picked up on something yousaid earlier about obviously and I'm
really big on this, that the dog wasreading the human's body language.
And I'm so big on sort of like petowners or pet professionals learning
and understanding canine body language.

Martina (49:28):
Mm hmm.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: really important, isn't it, as (49:28):
undefined

Martina (49:30):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: they read our body language (49:31):
undefined
and our cues and they.
They communicate to us through their bodylanguage, they communicate to each other.
So it's so powerful, isn't it,to really understand all that.

Martina (49:41):
Yeah, and if you think about the boricolli have been
selected to read livestock behaviour.
So I think they are exceptionalat reading body language.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (49:50):
Yeah.

Martina (49:51):
because they've been bred to observe the sheep and they know the
sheep are moving before you even know.
and that's why it's difficult.
We haven't even touched about herding,but that's why training them with
sheep is difficult because the dogsees it before you and then you're
late queuing what they should be doing.

(50:11):
So yeah, so they are good and they, butalso I think the, I think what I call is,
Again, one thing that is very importantabout body language and Border Collies
is that a lot of the time, what lookslike fear is actually not, you know, a
lot of the time, you know, the tail goesdown, the head goes down, and they look
like they've got that typical attitudethat you probably have in your, in your

(50:33):
head from the books that we started atthe beginning of our journey, where that
dog is like a bit arched down, the tailunder and the ears back and the head down,
and they're like, oh, he's scared, no.
That's a herding stance.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: why I always say you've got to put (50:47):
undefined
it into context, and there could bebreed specific traits that they're

Martina (50:53):
Yeah.
Yeah, so Kite, when he works,his tail is, of my colleagues, is
the one that has the best tail.
That's considered the best tail.
And I've been, I've been, youknow, people have, have told
me, oh, he's got a good tail.
The good tail is, means that his tail isunder his belly and he's so much under his
belly that the tip comes out to the side.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (51:14):
Wow.

Martina (51:15):
of his leg when he works.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (51:17):
Yeah.

Martina (51:18):
see that, if I show you a picture of that without contact, you
probably see all the dog is petrified,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (51:23):
Mmm.
Mmm.

Martina (51:25):
scared.
You know, his ears might be backand, you know, his eyes might
be a bit, no, he's hurting.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (51:31):
Wow.
That's

Martina (51:33):
Yeah.
So, Yeah, that's why it'simportant, as you say, for owners
to read the body language, butknowing also what dogs they have,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (51:42):
Yeah.

Martina (51:43):
because in a collie that is, can be fear, you know, it can be fear.
But if they're doing it to anotherdog, it could also be just that they're
trying to control the other dog.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (51:52):
I don't know if it's possible or not because
you said we've not touched on Herodin.
Did you want to just give usa quick overview of Herodin?
Good.

Martina (52:00):
Yes, I would like to say something because that's a question
I get asked a lot of the time fromdog owners and, and colleagues about,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (52:06):
Mmm.
Yeah.

Martina (52:09):
starting herding as a hobby to help them, you know, having an
enriched life and to give them an outlet.
And I, I've been doing it, youknow, I've had this farm for a year.
Before that, I was doingherding as a hobby with my dogs.
And I've done it since my very first dog,she was a show line, she wasn't even a

(52:30):
working line, but she was working forme, then I had Moss, then I got Jock,
then I got Tay, which is my, my mainworking dog, but he started herding as
a hobby, as a, as a kind of every otherweek activity, when he was one, and
he's four now, so I've done it with allmy colleagues as a kind of activity,
but I will always Say to my studentsthat wants to start or my colleagues

(52:53):
that ask me, where can I go with mystudents colleague that needs an activity
because they want to chase everything.
I always say, you know, it's not alwaysthe best choice because you can't
just take the call it to ship oncea month or once every other weekend.
And then if you have a month of rainand you never go back and then you go
back because some colleagues needs.

(53:13):
daily exposure to sheep to be ableto actually train and progress and
actually listen and be safe for thesheep, because we have not forget
the herding is about the sheep.
The sheep are our main concern.
We train dogs so that we can manageour livestock in a good welfare.
You know, and, and having dogs means thatI'm not, you know, I, I, I can move ship

(53:36):
easily and calmly from one place to theother without the ships getting stressed,
which means that it's important thatthe dogs doesn't stress the ship out.
And unless you do it regularly,some dogs won't allow you that.
So you start an activity withthem that it might not be able to
progress because they are too much.
Like Moss couldn't do it as a hobby.

(53:57):
He had to stop when he was threebecause he was biting sheep.
So I had to stop.
Yeah, he had a big grip andthat grip was excitement and

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (54:05):
Okay.

Martina (54:09):
have that.
But if I had a farm back then, I couldhave trained that out of him quicker
because I could give him a lot of joband then he will, you know, he will
be calm every time he goes to sheep.
So it's not always thebest activity for pet dogs.
But if you have.
You know, but some of my students do it.
They come to me or I send them to someoneelse that, you know, I'm not, it's not my
job training dogs, training other people'sdogs on sheep, but I have a few students

(54:33):
that are also friends that trust me andthey come and do it with me every now
and then and they are safe for the sheep.
So, so they do it and then they mightnot do it for a month and then when they
come back it takes them a bit to calmdown, but then they're able to do it.
So yeah, so herding is a great activity,but not everyone can do it, it's not
always the best choice for pet dogs.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: So definitely seek out a specialist (54:53):
undefined
professional like yourselfbefore we, we do hurt him.

Martina (55:00):
Yeah, or someone that has, you know, ideally more, more experience
than me, but expect it not to, youknow, to be a big, big commitment.
So

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you for touching on that. (55:10):
undefined
If you could give one piece of adviceto someone struggling with their
border colleague, what would it be?

Martina (55:20):
having a border collie is like having a second job.
You need to really, it's a full timejob, so if you have already a full time
job, it's your second full time job.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (55:29):
Wow.

Martina (55:29):
If, of course, you know, if you have one of those border collies
that needs a bit more work you know,it takes me half a day to train, go
through all mine when I train them.
And I don't train everyone every day,but when I do, it's my day off, but half
a day is gone just to train four dogs.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (55:45):
Wow.

Martina (55:46):
I know, Sunday should have been my day off.
And I said, Oh, today I'm justgoing to take the afternoon off and
a half past four in the afternoon,I was still outside training dogs.
And I was like, Oh, okay, maybe tomorrow.
So yeah, so it's, if you, if you'restruggling, you need to put the work in.
There's not going to be a quick fix.
There's not going to be, evenif you come to me, I'm not going

(56:07):
to give you a solution straightaway that you need to commit.
You need to be consistent.
You need to be, you know,committed and consistent so that.
You put the work in and that's theonly way your dog is going to improve.
And I know that that's for everyone.
That's, that's for every dog training.
But because they are a work, theyare a breed that needs work anyway.

(56:31):
It's, it's even more important tounderstand that it's not, you're not
going to do eight weeks of trainingand that's, the dog is fixed.
You have a Border Collie forever.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Trainings for life. (56:39):
undefined

Martina (56:41):
Yeah, until they get to an age where they can start slowing down,
but it's different to everyone, youknow, even if you ask me a question,
when do they start slowing down?
Moss is 14 and he still wants to dothings, you know, if I don't take him
out for a walk, a little walk, butstill a walk every day, or he spends
half an hour in the paddock with theothers, he's a pain in the evening
sometimes, because he's got too muchbrain energy, body energy, not a lot,

(57:03):
but brain energy is still there at 14,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, bless him. (57:06):
undefined
And I picked, like, with a lot oftrain consistency is key, isn't it?

Martina (57:13):
yeah.
Definitely.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (57:15):
what do you wish more people understood
before getting their border collie?

Martina (57:21):
How much work they are.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (57:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Martina (57:24):
I think nobody realizes until you are in it.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (57:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Martina (57:29):
don't get me wrong, you can still get the one like Tay.
Tay, my, my, my mainworking dog at the farm now.
He is the easiest dog.
You know, if I could clone him, it wouldbe the perfect dog to give to all the
people that wants, you know, a pet dog.
You know, he could have been apet dog as well as a working dog,
but he's the only one of mine.
over, you know, over fiveworking dogs is the only one

(57:50):
that really could have done both.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (57:52):
Yeah.

Martina (57:54):
all the others just have too much to just be pet dogs.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (57:58):
Mm.
Brilliant.

Martina (57:59):
they are hard work.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: work, but rewarding, I'm sure. (58:01):
undefined
Very

Martina (58:03):
Oh, yeah, I love it.
I love it.
But you need to love.
And the good thing is that a lot ofmy students, they come to me when they
have no idea what training is, and thenthey become obsessed about training.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (58:14):
Yes.

Martina (58:14):
they are the one that becomes really good.
And then they want to learn more.
And then they go into do, you know,other sports and agility or obedience
or scent work or some of them, youknow, started a bit of hurting with me.
So yeah, they then becomeobsessed because how good it is.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Brilliant. (58:33):
undefined
thank you.
I'm going to put you on the spot now.
One question I didn't make you awareof, but we've got lots of fantastic
guests lined up for the Yappy Hour.
We've got vets, groomers,behaviourists, more breeds, Pacific
specialists, lots of differentamazing guests, including yourself.

(58:53):
But if there was one person youthink that I should invite on to
the Yappy Hour, who would that be?
This always gets people thinking.

Martina (59:06):
Yes, so I have a very good friend, which has been
in my podcast already, which Italk to pretty much every day.
We send each other voice notes and sheis mainly an agility trainer, but she
does residential training and she doesresidential and she does also service
training for dogs for autistic kids.
And she's called Lila.

(59:28):
Zawotowicz, I can send youthe name because I don't know
if I pronounced it right.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: sent me that I, (59:32):
undefined

Martina (59:33):
I'll send you the name and she's, you know, she's a good friend
of mine but she's a very knowledgeabletrainer and she, as I said, she does,
you know, she does agility at a highlevel, she does residential training
and she does it the right way.
The dogs live in the house with her.
And, and everything.
And then she does alsoassistant dogs training, which

(59:53):
I find it very fascinating.
And I've seen dogs from the beginningto the point that they are living
with their kids and they help them.
And they have so much skilland so much yeah, it's amazing.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Brilliant. (01:00:07):
undefined
So yeah, she definitely soundslike really, something really
interesting we need to go.
So yeah, do send me some details.
Martina, thank you so much.
Literally my mind

Martina (01:00:16):
You're welcome.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: so much useful information (01:00:18):
undefined
and it's been so interesting.
I've learned so much.
If our listeners would like to find outmore about you, how can they reach you?

Martina (01:00:29):
So I have of course my website, which is thattledoacademy.
com.
I run my own podcast, whichis the Border Collie Geek.
Where I talk about Border Collies,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I was going to ask you to (01:00:39):
undefined
mention your podcast, so that's

Martina (01:00:42):
yeah.
I also, I'm on social media as the BorderCollie Geek, both on TikTok and Instagram.
And I also have a Facebook group, whichis free for everyone to join, which is
the Border Collie Geek learning community.
So I do kind of, like, free videosand tips and, and things in that
group, and I answer questions.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (01:01:03):
Yeah

Martina (01:01:04):
of course, you know, if you need help with training, I can book
you in for a discovery call and we canhave a chat on zoom or on the phone.
For a chat, I have online courses, allin academy is all on my website anyway.
So there's different way to, to,to reach me and have my support.
I've got webinars, I've got everything.
So, you know, you can start froma webinar up to working with me.

(01:01:26):
One to one training.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, lovely. (01:01:28):
undefined
And just remind us of that website again.

Martina (01:01:31):
That'll do academy.
com.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (01:01:33):
Perfect.
Brilliant.
Martina, thank you so much for joining meon the Yappy Hour powered by Yaply today.
Honestly, I think we're going tohave to get you back in the future.
I feel like we've only justsort of scratched the surface.
I know, I know our listeners are goingto find this chat so interesting.
So I really appreciate your time.

(01:01:55):
Thank you so much for joining me.
Today and hopefully we willget to chat again soon.

Martina (01:02:02):
Thank you for having me.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Thank you very much (01:02:03):
undefined
What a fantastic conversationwith Martina Miradoli.
Her passion for Border Collies istruly inspiring and I hope you come
away with some valuable insights.
Here are a few key takeawaysfrom today's episode.

(01:02:26):
Number one, Border Collies are incrediblyintelligent and high energy dogs,
which means they need both physicaland mental stimulation to truly thrive.
Number two, understanding the breed'snatural instincts, especially their
herding drive, is crucial to managingtheir behaviour in a pet home.

(01:02:48):
Number three, training withpatience and respect for their
intelligence helps build a strongerconnection and well balanced dog.
Number four, Enrichment activities suchas scent work and agility are excellent
ways to meet a Border Collie's needsand strengthen your bond with them.

(01:03:09):
Martina, thank you so much for sharingyour knowledge and experience with
us today and to all our listeners.
If you're looking for more tipsand advice on living with a Border
Collie, be sure to check out theAdo Academy and follow Martina on
social media for expert guidance.

(01:03:30):
If you enjoyed this episode,please consider leaving a review or
sharing it with a fellow dog parent.
And don't forget to subscribe so younever miss an episode of the Yappy Hour.
Thanks for listening andI'll see you next time.