Teenage Dogs: Navigating the Challenges of Canine Adolescence with Behaviourist Daniel Shaw

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered byYappily, the podcast for dog lovers
who want to better understand andconnect with their canine companions.
I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy,and today we are diving into
a phase that often catches.
Dog guardians by surprise adolescents.
Joining me is Daniel Shaw, clinicalanimal behaviourist educator and

(00:26):
founder of Animal Behaviour Kent.
He's also the host of theincredible A BK conference, which
I'll be attending this summer.
Daniel specialises in understandingand supporting dogs through their
developmental stages, and he'shere to help us navigate the
emotional ups and downs of teenagedogs without losing our sanity.

(00:50):
If your young, young dog is testingboundaries, forgetting their training,
or suddenly acting like a different dogaltogether, this episode is for you.
So grab a cup of tea, settlein, and let's get started.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (01:06):
Welcome back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappy.
I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, andI'm so excited to bring you another
episode of The Yappy Hour Today.
Joining me this evening is Mr.
Daniel Shaw.
Hi Daniel.
Welcome to the Yappy Hour.
Hello.
How are you doing?

Daniel (01:25):
Yeah, I'm good.
Thank you.
It is great to be here.

Good.

Daniel (01:28):
very exciting.
Amazing podcast.
You've had some amazing guests on, so,

We,

Daniel (01:32):
yeah,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: have, and now you've joined that (01:32):
undefined
caliber of amazing guests, so I'mexcited to chat to you tonight.
So Daniel I know that many ofour listeners are either going
through adolescents with theirdog or they're still kind of
recovering and getting over it.
What first drew you to specializing inthis particular stage of development?

Daniel (01:52):
Well, I think,

I.

Daniel (01:54):
I wouldn't say I specialize as such in terms of adolescents, but I

Sure.

Daniel (01:58):
working with adolescent dogs because I think

Yeah.

Daniel (02:01):
a special and amazing time.
I think it's such a time where, you know,you do see caregivers starting to kind
of pull their hair out when they hit theadolescence time because especially if
you've got a dog from a puppy and youknow, you've been doing all this work,
you've been going out with your trainer,you've got all these amazing things set
up and your, you know, you get, and I'vehad this as well, you know, having my

(02:23):
first dog from a puppy, you're kind ofthinking, wow, I'm, I'm a total pro here.
And then adolescence comes along andjust throws everything out of whack
and it's, it's, it's like, and youthink I've trained all these things and
then suddenly the dog doesn't seem torespond to any of these things anymore.
And so it's, it'sfascinating and I think I.
As humans, we are very quick to kindof jump to blaming and jumping to kind

(02:49):
of putting that on the individual whenthey, you know, when our adolescent
dog stops responding to all thecues we've taught 'em, and stops
being so easy going to manage andsuddenly is a bit more of a handful.
We are very easy,

Yeah.

Daniel (03:02):
easy for us as humans to kind of say, you know, they're being disobedient,
they're playing up, you know, they'rejust, you know, they know what to do,
but they just don't want to do it.
All those things you commonlyhear about adolescent dogs.
And, you know, what fascinatesme is actually into the,
the biology of adolescents.
What's going on in

Mm.

Daniel (03:22):
of an adolescent dogs?
What sort of changes are we seeing therethat's making these things, all this kind
of world that they're living in, suddenlyseem a little bit different to them.
Than it was

Yeah.

Daniel (03:35):
we start diving into it, we see all these things changing in
terms of the dog's perception, interms of the way the dog's valuing
re resources, in terms of the dog's

Mm.

Daniel (03:44):
as well.
And I think we all see that, andadolescent's judgment is sometimes
not what we might consider the best.
So it's, it's a

Yeah.

Daniel (03:51):
topic and I, and I love, do I do love working with adolescent cases?
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Brilliant. (03:55):
undefined
Thank you for that.
So, um, what do you think, orwhy do you think, should I say,
adolescence is often one of the mostchallenging phases for dog guardians?

Daniel (04:07):
Yeah.
So I think a little bit in terms of whatI touched on in the sense that you, you,
you know, you, you are doing so well andthen that suddenly falls off the edge.
And I think

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's like they suddenly just (04:17):
undefined
stop listening, don't they?
They're like,

Daniel (04:19):
yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: selective hearing. (04:20):
undefined

Daniel (04:22):
Yeah.
And it's, it's, it is so difficultand I think, so I think that
frustration from the caregiver

Hmm.

Daniel (04:27):
is a big thing.
And I think when we actually look intothat and when we kind of dive into
kind of what's going on in adolescence,we can kind of start to understand
what might be going on for that dog.
And I think that's a, a, a key elementto overcoming some of those difficulties.
So I think understanding, for example,that when a dog hits that adolescent

(04:47):
stage, some of those emotional regionsof their brain, what we call the limbic
system that's involved in helping a dogprocess reinforces in the environment,
things that feel great, things that feel

Mm.

Daniel (04:58):
that they want to get away on conflict related Behaviour, all those
emotional elements, those kind ofbeautiful emotional elements of your dog's
life will be kind of hypercharged readyto go as an adult dog's brain would be.
But the difference that, that, that theyhave to the kind of adult dog brain.
Is the frontal part of their brain,that region of the brain that's

(05:21):
involved in kind of helping usinhibit some of those responses,
helping us make better judgments.
So, you know, if for example, an adultdog maybe finds a puppy a little bit
irritating, maybe they're able to think,okay, you know, this is a little bit
irritating, but I'm not gonna respond tothat 'cause I recognize that's a puppy.
Or if an adult dog recognizes thatthere's something they want to go and
chase, they're able, that inhibitive andin sort of inhibit inhibition structure

(05:45):
within their frontal cortex is ableto kind of say, yep, but I know if I
don't chase that, then there's gonnabe some good outcomes for me later on.
All that inhibition hardware thatthey've got in the front of part
of their brain is still very muchdeveloping in the adolescent dog.
Adolescent dog.
So we

Yeah.

Daniel (06:02):
between

Mm

Daniel (06:03):
kind of frontal and limbic structure that limbic
firing in all cylinders.
S causing that dog to experience emotionsin full and really kind of in, in,
in a really strong way, but not being

Mm.

Daniel (06:17):
actually have that infrastructure in place to be able
to kind of help the dog regulate someof those, uh, emotional expressions.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. (06:26):
undefined
And when I was sort of doing dog trainingand you get to that sort of eight or
nine month mark with some dogs and Iused to just say to the caregivers that
the dog's not intending to be that way.
And because the caregivers would belike, oh, you know, they're just not
listening or they're stubborn and, butit would, they just got all this stuff
going on, this brain fog and I justused to just express that the dog's

(06:48):
really not meaning to do be that way.
Like they're just going throughobviously something and just trying
to make them understand 'causethey, the dog, the caregivers don't
always understand what's going on.

Daniel (06:59):
Yeah, and I think what's really interesting about that is because, you
know, with, if we look at our typicaladolescent dog, you know, a dog built
for survival or an animal that is goodat survival isn't typically what you'd
associate with an adolescent dog.
They're doing things, you know,they're putting themselves in
dangerous situations all the time.
We have to be really hot on ourmanagement, often for adolescent dogs.
So it's kind of interesting to think aboutfrom an evolutionary perspective, why.

(07:24):
Is this change so importantin the adolescent dog, so
important to evolution that this

Mm.

Daniel (07:31):
stayed on?
It's not something that's just kindof been selected away because you'd
think, you know, if we've got adog that's suddenly taking a ton of
risks, then that's on an evolutionarylevel, not gonna be very adaptive.
And we're gonna kind of seethat trait of start to, to be
cold over, over the generations.
So it's interesting

Yeah.

Daniel (07:50):
occurs and it kind of tells us that obviously there's something there
about that that means that, that is

Mm.

Daniel (07:57):
for the dog's development.
That's really important forthe dog to then be able to be
a healthy, well adjusted adult.
And know, to be honest, especially interms of dogs as there's very limited
research on adolescents, even in humans.
We can't be sure why thisadolescence period occurs.
But you know, kind of, peopleoften talk about this idea that.

(08:19):
Actually having that change in physiologythat makes us, takes more risks, makes
us become a little bit more independent,is actually important for the survival
of us as a species and for the, ourkind of, ability to adapt and live
successfully in the world longer termbecause we need to take some of those

Hmm.

Daniel (08:38):
to be able to learn and learn to become a little bit more
independent potentially as well.
Have the opportunity to reproduce beinganother potential reason for adolescents

Yeah.

Daniel (08:50):
also just, yeah, becoming a more independent, well adjusted adult.
And I think that's one thing I talkabout with caregivers that I work with
a lot is actually, yeah, it is gonna bedifficult and they might not listen to
things you say and it might feel likethey're being stubborn and they've got it
in for you and all those kind of thingsthat you probably kind of even hear when

(09:10):
we're talking about human adolescence.
But

Yes.

Daniel (09:14):
Going through that is so important for the dog to be able
to become a well adjusted adult.
Become an independent adult

Mm.

Daniel (09:23):
need to rely on their caregiver the whole time.
And actually

Yeah,

Daniel (09:28):
doing that and kind of getting through that stage is gonna pay off.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: definitely. (09:32):
undefined
Thank you so much, Daniel.
So we're gonna be moving on to ourfirst section, which is all about
what happens during adolescence.
So I find it absolutely fascinating.
So I'm enjoying speaking to you about it.
So please may give us a quick overview.
I think you've, you've touched onit a little bit, but what's actually
happening in the dog's, brain andbody, children, adolescents, please.

Daniel (09:55):
Yeah.
So, as you said, I've touched on alittle bit there in terms of we get that
disparity between the emotional systemsof the brain starting to really mature.
But that frontal region ofthe brain not being so mature.
So we haven't got that inhibitiveinfrastructure there to help regulate
some of those emotional systems.
And we know that

Mm,

Daniel (10:15):
region of the brain, for example, is really key to things like extinction
learning and extinction learning.
Just for anyone that isn'tfamiliar with that term is,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: thank you. (10:24):
undefined

Daniel (10:25):
a, a new type, a type of learning.
And I think this is a, ainteresting thing about extinction.
We often don't think of itas a type of learning, but
actually is a type of learning.
It's learning

Yeah.

Daniel (10:35):
mean something anymore.
So for example, if a dog has gone tothe park and gone to somewhere on their
walk, wherever and seen something scaryanother dog has approached them, chased
them, made them feel really scared asa, as a puppy or as as an adolescent.
Then there may be some learningthat occurs that the dog thinks,
oh, this is a scary place.

(10:55):
I'm gonna be avoidant of this place.
Now if, if that dog then goes backthere as a puppy, then they're quite
likely to be able to engage in someextinction learning if the, say, if
the circumstances are set up correctly.
And sometimes it can be a bitmore complicated than this, but
I'm just simplifying things alittle bit for the sake of our

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's good. (11:13):
undefined

Daniel (11:14):
they can

Yeah.

Daniel (11:15):
to the park, have a good time there, and then we might get
some extinction learning takingplace in that the dog learns that.
Oh, actually, yeah, when I go to the parkmost of the time, there isn't that bad.
It isn't associatedwith those bad outcomes.
So that's actually an a,a type of new learning.
It's not unlearning that the parkwas a bad place, it's learning that
actually it is a safe place andthat thing doesn't occur anymore.

Yeah.

Daniel (11:38):
Adolescents because that frontal part of their brain isn't fully developed.
Struggle more with that becauseextinction learning requires, um,
signals to go from the frontal partof the brain to a region of the
brain called the amygdala, which is a

Yes.
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (12:07):
this applies in, in positive context as well.
So it might be that, you know, you'vegot a dog that starts counter surfing at
adolescents and we say, do you know what?
We're gonna be really hot on this.
We are gonna not letanything on the counter.
And then, you know, threemonths later, dog is still there
checking the counter every day.
Again, adolescents do strugglewith extinction learning.
So that sort of thing is gonnabe harder during that stage.
So that's one big change that occursthat we see that, that, that change in

(12:32):
kind of that brain development and that,and that can change the way that the dog
learns as well, being a little bit moreprone to making those initial connections
and a little bit less prone to kindof overwriting that in, in the form of
extinction learning when we are trying toteach the dog that a particular stimulus
such as your counter and a particularreward, such as being a nice snack on
the counter, are no longer associated.

undefined
Thank you so much.
So, and this is quite interesting,this next question because it's
quite fascinating in some respects.
So some dogs seem to completelysell through this stage, this phase.
They're like, ah, we're done.
But then there's others thatjust seem to fall apart.
Is there any reason that some doreally well with adolescents, but some

(13:17):
like literally just fall to pieces?

Daniel (13:20):
I mean, that's the, that's the question, isn't it?
Uh, I think it's really,really hard to know.
There's, there's no particularly,again in dogs, there's no of research
or science that tells us why onedog might be more prone to really
struggling with that phase or not.
I mean, I think

Hmm.

Daniel (13:35):
thing that we can point to just from our experience is
that, you know, it may be that onedog has a bad experience during
adolescence that goes wrong for them.
But, you know, even within that, youcan have two dogs that have exactly
the same experience during adolescence.
It might be a new person cominginto the home, something like that.
could have dogs that come inwith kind of, pretty much the
same, same learning history.

(13:56):
Pretty much right?
And one, one comes in, one, aperson comes into the home, one dog
freaks out, a person comes into thehome, one dog doesn't freak out.
And, it's, it's so hard to say kindof what, what makes that difference?
And, and we're starting to learn moreabout things like gene environment
interactions and the kind ofamazing field of epigenetics that

(14:17):
really kind of looks into that.
And that starts to point us towardssome potential answers for that.
So, for example, there are geneticpolymorphisms, so kind of just differences
in animals', genes that if a dog X hasthose polymorphisms and has particular set

(14:37):
of circumstances during development aremore at risk of developing, behavioural
disorders longer term or individuals arethis coming from researching sort of rats
and humans rather than dogs specifically?
So we know that, you know, if you getthat wrong combination of genes then
goes in, then that animal goes in thewrong environment where perhaps they are.
It's often unpredictable, um, potentiallykind of where there's a lot of fear

(15:02):
elicited during those early stagesenvironments that might then combined
with that genetic predisposition tothen put an animal at higher risk
of developing those Behaviouraldis dis difficulties longer term.

Mm

Daniel (15:17):
and.
That sort of thing could be a plain dog.
So it could be that, you know,you've got a dog that's got
that genetic predisposition,maybe doesn't get the right

mm.

Daniel (15:25):
from their mom, maybe doesn't have the right experience in terms of
breeding, maybe doesn't get the rightstart as a puppy or something like that.
That

Yeah.

Daniel (15:34):
means that dog, when we hit that adolescent stage, we
start actually seeing that present.
And I think that's one of the difficultthings because you know, if you've
got a dog that doesn't get thatright input as a puppy, sometimes
they're still absolutely fine.
Or you know, kind of from,from our perspective, seem
to do really well as puppies.
But then those issues actuallystart to present later when the dogs

Yeah.

Daniel (15:54):
to mature a little bit.
And we realize, and those kind ofeffects on the dog's physiology really
start to take effect and presentin terms of the dog's Behaviour.
And we see that dog startingto really struggle to cope.

Yeah.
Brilliant.
Thank you.
Is there an average timeline forpuberty or adolescents, or does it vary
massively between different breeds?

Daniel (16:18):
Oh, so yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that in terms of puberty
and adolescence, because thoseare a couple of separate things.
So,

okay.

Daniel (16:25):
timeline wise, we can actually think about the timeline
for puberty as being something thattends to come before adolescence.
So the kinda,

Mm.

Daniel (16:36):
way to think of the difference between puberty and adolescence is puberty
being kind of what's happening, changesin kind of the body from the head down,
um, or not even just the head down, butactually more kind of in some of those
hormonal, maturing, uh, maturation.
So things like testosterone, startingto flow more in male dogs, estrogen and

Mm

Daniel (16:53):
starting to flow more in female dogs.
So the dog becoming sexually mature.

Mm.

Daniel (16:58):
we might start seeing a female dog going into season.
We start, might steal a male dog,starting to take more of an interest
in humping and more of an interest inthe females that he may encounter out
on his walks and things like that.
So.
Those are the, those are thesorts of changes that we would
typically get with puberty or thedog reaching that puberty phase.

(17:18):
Then adolescence is more of thosechanges in terms of the brain.
So those things that westarted to talk about.
Now, typically, puberty willstart to occur around six to
eight months in most dogs on

Okay.

Daniel (17:30):
I'm not sure the last time I checked there wasn't a huge amount of
research on differences between breed.

Right.

Daniel (17:38):
There may be more that has come out, but I think, you know,
my understanding is there isn'ta huge amount of science on that.
A lot of

Mm

Daniel (17:45):
do report, especially people that you know, have one breed and a lot
of experience with a particular breedthat, you know, they, their breed may
be a little bit later or a little bitearlier with both puberty or adolescence.

mm.

Daniel (17:57):
But there's, there's not enough science as far as I'm aware to say for
sure on that, that, you know, that'snot to say that there isn't differences,
it's just to say that we don't officiallykind of have that data to, to kind of
tell us a lot about those differences.
So, um, yeah, puberty kind of aroundthat six months mark and then adolescence
tends to be between, somewhere betweenreally around eight and 24 months is

(18:20):
the best estimate from a a, a paperthat came out a couple of years ago.
And when I say between, thatdoesn't mean that the dog hits,
starts adolescent at eight monthsand then finishes at 24 months.
It can be

No.

Daniel (18:34):
a kind of a period between that.
So it could be that the dog goes intothe adolescence phase around eight months
and then sort of finishes adolescencearound, you know, 14, 16 months.
It could be that they start a lot later.
You know, that that starts.
really starts taking effect around 18months and finishes off around 24 months.
So kind of

Yeah.

Daniel (18:53):
adolescence period is, can vary.
And yeah, again, that may besomething that is related to breed.
A lot of people, for example, talk aboutlarger breeds having a bit of a delayed
Potentially.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: he took, yeah, he took them. (19:04):
undefined
I was gonna say the size of the breed.
I thought that impacted it a bit.

Daniel (19:10):
Yeah.
So I mean, it certainly could welldo, I mean, I, I think it, it, my
personal kind of guess is that I thinkit possibly does just from what I've

Yeah,

Daniel (19:20):
say for sure because we haven't got enough data.
So that, I think that's certainly aninteresting one to kind of keep an
eye on as, as, as things go forward.

undefined
There was a question ofwhat to just tag in here.
Something I picked up on the other day.
So second fear cycle, eightto nine months, roughly.
Is this the same as adolescentsor are they two separate things?

Daniel (19:42):
So, yeah, that's a really good question as well.
And I think the, as best as Ican tell the answer is we don't
know whether that's the same

Right.

Daniel (19:50):
or two separate things.
I

Okay.

Daniel (19:54):
and I think it depends who you talked to, because some people
that I've heard have talked aboutit as quite a distinct thing from
second adolescent or from adolescent,sorry, the second fear cycle.
My interpretation just based off what weknow about adolescents and the fact that
there's not really evidence of kind of a,a second fear cycle in other animals was
not, you know, we've got a lot of dataon adolescents as mammals as a whole,

(20:19):
got so much data on fear cycles and likea fear, a later fear cycle, particularly
occurring in mammals as a whole.
So my, my theory is, yeah, it probably issome, something related to adolescences
and, and it is probably kind of someof those changes and, and I think.
It is probably related to some of thosechanges that we get during adolescence
and as, what I'm trying to say, Isuppose is the changes that we get

(20:42):
through adolescence aren't a load ofthings that switch on at the beginning
of adolescence and a load of things thatswitch off at the end of adolescence.
They're things like, for example,that change in extinction learning,
that change in reward processing,that change in associative learning.
And, and all these changescoming along at once.
Sort of coming along atdifferent times, sorry.
And interacting at different times.

(21:04):
So if you can think during that adolescentperiod, say we're getting that change
in extinction learning going up, andthen we've got another change of,
you know, a few weeks later going up.
And if you can think, that actuallymeans we're getting a load of kind
of different interaction pointsthroughout that adolescent period.
then

Hmm.

Daniel (21:20):
to really kind of give us a, a way of seeing it a
little bit differently of, of.
Actually through adolescences,like the animals dealing with these
cocktail of changes on almost like a

Yeah.

Daniel (21:31):
week basis, that means actually from one week to another, the way the
dog is perceiving the world and learningabout the world and responding to
the world could be very different asthat adolescence sort of progresses.
So I

Hmm.

Daniel (21:47):
quite possibly that second fear period is something to do with that.
And, and, and even if we think aboutrisk taking during adolescence, you
know, that might be something thatties into what people describe as a
second period fear period as well.
Because we know adolescents take morerisks, which means they're more likely
to put themselves in circumstanceswhere they then feel scared because
they've run up to someone that theythought was a good idea to run up to.

(22:08):
And then they've got there and theyrealize there's a really scary looking
person that they've now decided to,you know, there's too many people,
too many dogs, too many things goingon, and they're like, ah, crap.
Whereas

Yeah.

Daniel (22:19):
you know, had they been in that scenario, may have been fearful.
probably wouldn't have got intothat scenario in the first place.
So all sorts of

Yeah.

Daniel (22:27):
could be going on there.
I think, you know, the, the, there'sso many changes that are going on.
I, I would tend to think kindof just saying a second fear
period in a way is almost a

Yeah,

Daniel (22:38):
of all the kind of cocktail of changes that we get
during that adolescence period.

yeah.
Brilliant.
Thank you so much.
So we are gonna be moving on to ournext section, which is all about the
common challenges that pet guardianscan worry that what they worry about.
Um, so challenges and worries.
What are some of the mostcommon Behaviours that tend
to pop up during adolescence?
Daniel?

Daniel (23:05):
So I think one thing that I certainly see a lot, and again this is
just based on my experience working as a

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's, that's cool. (23:14):
undefined
Yeah.

Daniel (23:16):
kind of any, any, anything that we know from the data.
But,

Yeah.

Daniel (23:21):
um, I see a lot of dogs that seem to struggle with frustration
during adolescence and you know, thatcan be things like frustration out
on walks or suddenly becoming, youknow, barking at other dogs because
we're seeing these kind of explosiveBehaviours, I think is sometimes the best

Mm,

Daniel (23:36):
them.
You know, you're taking the dog outand then suddenly they've seen someone
and then we're just getting but blahbark and then we sometimes we get some
redirected Behaviour towards the leashand then we get running about and
we just get like this kind of, sortof explosion of sort of Behaviour.
And I think often that canbe that frustration response.
And just to kind of define that a littlebit, what I mean by frustration, I.

(23:56):
Is the experience.
When an animal wants to do something,they want to access something
in their environment, but theyare interrupted from doing so.
So for example, in that example,seeing another dog that they want to
interact with, but not being able tobecause they're on leash and therefore

Yeah.

Daniel (24:14):
And I think

Yeah.

Daniel (24:16):
many scenarios like that where adolescents really struggle and whether
it's, you know, people coming into thehome and, and, and sometimes it's even
things like, you know, people cominginto the home and they're a little bit
fearful, they're a little bit nervous inthat situation, but they also wanna meet

Mm.

Daniel (24:29):
So we get that conflicts there that can sometimes
bring in that frustration.
I see that a lot in adolescent dogsof kind of being like, there's a new
person that's really, really exciting.
But I'm a little bit too scared togo and say hi to them, so I'm not
sure what to do, so I'm just gonnamaybe just start barking at them.
So I think we see, we seethat sort of thing a lot.
And I think helping

Yeah.

Daniel (24:48):
dog, adolescent dogs ways to manage some of that frustration, find
ways to regulate some of that frustrationcan be really, really valuable.

Mm.
They can often get timedlike frustrated greeters.
So they can seem really like aggressive,but they're more so, like you say,
they frustrated 'cause they justwanna get to that dog and say hello.

Daniel (25:08):
Yeah, no, I think that's great.
Tam.
Yeah, kind of like it is, it canlook, it can look, uh, you know, quite
particularly on some of the larger breedswith kind of the deeper barks or the,
I tend to find I'm more easily, got anissue that I'm very easily started by.
Kind of like the littlebreeds with the light.
The high-pitched yappy noise always makeme jump when they bark unexpectedly still.
But, um, the larger breeds, I think,you know, for some people particularly

(25:31):
kind of can look quite threateningwhen they start reacting like that.
And actually when, when you dive intoit, actually it's, it's not that the,
the dog is, you know, behaving, youknow, showing what might be described
as aggressive Behaviour, which is avery broad label and a very sort of.
Difficult label to definein itself, but it's just

Yeah.

Daniel (25:52):
Behaviour 'cause they kind of want to greet them, but they're also not
quite sure how to do it and what to do.

Yeah.
Brilliant.
My next question's gotthe word reactive in it.
And I'm not a massive fan of theword reactive, like aggressive 'cause
there's so many sort of connotationsor reasons that it could be that way.
But for a dog that who previouslymaybe loved other dogs, but then
suddenly became reactive and invertedcomm or, or wary, why might that be?

Daniel (26:18):
Yeah.
So I think, again, during adolescence,I mean, so during any age that that's
something that can happen, right?
That's something that, thatcan be a bad experience.
It could be that the dog startingto experience some pain, and
that's made them more concerned

Yeah.

Daniel (26:32):
with other dogs because suddenly they're feeling a
little bit more vulnerable.
So therefore they're, they're,they're trying to prevent other dogs
from, from interacting with them.
So there's all sorts of reasonsthat a dog at any age could start
being more reactive to other dogs.
Suddenly, if we think about itin adolescence in particular.
I think a couple of, you know, acouple of things that we can be

(26:53):
aware of is dogs start to changea little bit during adolescence.
And one thing we can sometimes seein adolescent animals is kind of more
of a, sort of a, a what's sometimescalled a hostile attribution bias.
So a bias towards thinking the Behaviourof others is hostile towards them.

(27:14):
and that can of course mean, you know, ifyou're going round thinking everyone is,
is coming after you and, and, and lookingfor a fight with you, then you are, you
are gonna be more defensive naturally.
And we know

Yeah.

Daniel (27:24):
are more defensive, if a dog is behaving more standoffish, then
that can make the other dog thenstart thinking, why is he looking
a bit, he's looking a bit funny, soI'm not gonna, you know, or maybe I,
I'm, I should start barking at him.
So I think, you know, sometimes.
That might be something that could playinto that adolescents picture that just
makes dogs a little bit more standoffish,which then maybe makes another, you

(27:44):
know, the opposing dog that they mightsee out and about, more standoffish.
And that

Mm

Daniel (27:49):
to this kind of cycle of kind of miscommunication when actually both
dogs might be quite happy to play witheach other in better circumstances.
So, I mean, I think that's kindof one thing to watch out for.
Um, I, I think sometimes

mm.

Daniel (28:01):
Can increase as well during adolescence.
So, because again, we've not gotthat frontal circuitry in place.
So when we are, you know, when we areas adults being irritated, whether
you're a dog or a human your frontalcircuitry kind of is, is, is built in
place to help you kind of not react tothat if that's the right thing to do.
Whereas an adolescent might strugglemore with those irritations and might

(28:21):
struggle to deal with them better.
So it's something like a puppy ora dog that's a bit pushy with them,
whereas maybe a normal dog would be,have a bit more patience, be able to
kind of give some softer social signalslike maybe moving away from them,
trying to ignore them a little bit.
That might signal to the other dog.
You are being a bit much, anadolescent might just suddenly
turn around and be like, I'm gonnabite you or I'm gonna gonna start

(28:44):
barking at you, or, or whatever.
Um, because

Yeah.

Daniel (28:48):
is not as high in ad in an adolescent generally.
As it would

Mm.

Daniel (28:53):
adult dog.
I, I,

Yeah.

Daniel (28:55):
that's another thing that I think's worth watching out for, and I
think particularly again, if you are,if you are setting up social scenarios
with your adolescent dog, then that'sreally important to be aware of because
we need to know that actually if youradolescent dog, you know, if, if we start
seeing that play, particularly from theother dog, maybe getting a little bit
much or getting a little bit pushy, thenwe need to be aware that actually, and

(29:17):
that our adolescent dog might strugglewith that more than they would've done
even a couple of weeks ago when theywere, you know, in that puppy stage.
So being really,

Mm.

Daniel (29:28):
and really cautious of that is important because then of course if we do
have a bad interaction, the dog does thenturn around and snap at that other dog,
and then that leads to something worse.
Then we've of course got therest of that adolescent circuitry
that we've spoken about in place.
Ready for the dog to learn very, veryquickly that other dogs or this dog
or interacting with dogs in this setof circumstances down this park or

(29:50):
whatever it might be, is not good.
And you know, we've got fearand that could take place.
So really, really being mindfulof, you know, always with dogs.
I would, I would say kind of settingup for success with interactions, but
especially during that adolescenceperiod, remembering that there could be
changes in their kind of social tolerance.

(30:10):
And things can go wrong moreeasily than they might go
wrong at other stages of life.
So I think, yeah, being extra mindfulof just kind of making sure we're,
we're kind of managing our dog andpreventing those sorts of things from
occurring will again pay off longer time.

undefined
Thank you.
So our final question for thissection is how can guardians tell
the difference between developmentalBehaviour and something more serious?

Daniel (30:40):
So that's a really interesting question.
So I suppose I, I, in terms of kind ofdevelopmental Behaviour, is there any
anything you're kind of thinking of there?
Is there any particular examplesof developmental Behaviour
that that come to mind?

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Uh, oh gosh. (30:55):
undefined
I dunno really.
I guess just learning new, new things likemaybe sort of getting used to being home
alone, sort of if, you know, obviouslya lot of dogs struggle with that.
Yes.
Along, along, along those being a bitmore resilient and sort of like, you
know, learning to be at home on theirown and, you know, things like that.

(31:17):
Maybe.

Daniel (31:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I suppose, yeah, like thingslike not struggling a little bit
more with, being home alone or, or,or kind of maybe wanting to kind of
jump up a, a little bit more or kindof some of those things that we spoke
about that might link to some of thosefrustration things might tie in more to

Yeah.
Yeah,

Daniel (31:37):
think it's,

yeah.

Daniel (31:38):
very difficult.
I suppose one of the reasons it's kind ofhard to, to kind of think about this, I
suppose what I'm, what what's difficultis, is actually disentangling that, and I
think that's probably an important thingin itself is, is, you know, if we've got
a dog that's starting to, to show, youknow, fearful Behaviour at adolescence,
that is a Behaviour that could occurat any point in that dog's life.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Daniel (32:03):
necessarily something we would call developmental Behaviour,
but of course if it's happeningduring adolescence, it's still.
In gonna be incredibly important tounderstand that adolescence period in
the dog, because that's gonna changehow we might approach that Behaviour.
So for example, when I'm working withadolescent dogs that are struggling with

(32:25):
fearfulness, we tend to have a pretty lowwe, we scale back, I suppose is a good
way of describing kind of the Behaviourplans that we might put in place.
We don't do a lot of, for exampleyou know, what's known as sort of
desensitization or counterconditioningtraining with adolescent dogs.
And essentially the trainingthat we might do with an older
dog because, 'cause there's agreater chance of it going wrong.

(32:49):
Their, their

Yeah.

Daniel (32:50):
means that it's harder for them to, to, for that kind of information
to be taken on board by that dog.
So what we tend to

Mm.

Daniel (32:57):
on is actually during that period, maintaining a.
Where the

Yeah.

Daniel (33:01):
making sure we're not going backwards, making sure the dog doesn't
kind of regress in terms of theirfearfulness, um, around something.

Yeah.

Daniel (33:09):
Making sure that, you know, their kind of emotional wellbeing
is good and making sure that they'rehaving a, you know, a good, happy
existence as an adolescent, but actually

Yeah.

Daniel (33:17):
too much without Behaviour modification.
Because if we start doing too much workduring that adolescence period, it might

Mm-hmm.

Daniel (33:26):
you know, we are taking a greater risk in terms of things going wrong.
We are not gonna get as much valuefor our, for effort or money.
Um, in terms of the, theinvestment we're putting in.
Because the

Yeah.

Daniel (33:37):
well designed for that kind of learning during adolescence and it, it's,
I generally think it's better off actuallywaiting for the dog to mature a little
bit, just focusing on their emotionalwellbeing, making sure they enjoy that
adolescence during that adolescent period.
And then

Mm-hmm.

Daniel (33:52):
kind, kind of focusing more on the training side of tackling
that when the dog reaches maturity.
Um, rather than doing

Yeah.

Daniel (34:00):
on that during adolescence.

Yeah.
I'm trying to pinpoint like, 'causemy dogs, one of my dogs suffers with
separation anxiety and I'm tryingto pinpoint whether that was roughly
around like the adolescence period ornot, because it was in COVID as well.
My husband was furloughed and he sortof blames that a little bit as well.
The fact that he was home all the time.
And I was trying to work out whetherhe was sort of like around adolescent's

(34:25):
age, but his also is, um, linked topain 'cause he's got chronic back pain.
So he's like, he's got essay, butthen he sort of resource guards and
his reactive, so, so much going on.
Bless him.
Um, I was just trying to work out ifthat was around about an adolescent age.
It sort of came on.
So developmental Behaviour, what,like, I know I put this question in,

(34:47):
but what would you, what would you saydevelopmental Behaviour actually is then?

Daniel (34:52):
So I mean, I, I are you thinking of, I suppose what you thinking when
you, when we talk about developmentalBehaviour, there's Behaviour during
development that might be importantfor the dog's kind of development
longer term in terms of their kindof social and emotional development.
We know, for example, play

Hmm.

Daniel (35:10):
really important for social and emotional

Yes.

Daniel (35:12):
longer term.

Yeah,

Daniel (35:14):
and being able to explore new environments and develop
that proprioceptive system.
So the system that helps us kind ofnavigate the environment that we're on.
Literally navigate the environment, notin terms of thinking how do I get to the
local shops, but in terms of thinking,how do I get on onto the sofa and off
the sofa, you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Daniel (35:34):
So, I mean, that's a really important one in terms of
thinking about about development.
I mean, you know, if we get, if we gokind of even earlier, you know, things
like starting to open your eyes, startingto, to, to, uh, cry for your parent,
that kind of thing, I suppose would be

Mm.

Daniel (35:49):
in developmental Behaviour.

Yeah.

Daniel (35:51):
puppy

Yeah,

Daniel (35:52):
again, another big developmental Behaviour, helping us learn about
that social environment as well.
Helping us learn about

yeah,

Daniel (35:58):
the, the kind of physical environment that the puppy's in.

Yeah.

Daniel (36:01):
I, I

I guess,

Daniel (36:02):
typically think of that sort of thing.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I guess like, yeah, 'cause you've (36:05):
undefined
got those different stages inPuppyhood as well, haven't you?
That initial fear, so obviously ahabitation as well, and socialization
is so much different sort ofprocesses they're going through
at such a young age as well.

Daniel (36:20):
Yeah, I mean there's, there's so,

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's mad. (36:21):
undefined

Daniel (36:22):
isn't there?
And I mean, that's the,

Yeah.

Daniel (36:24):
thing about kind of.
Our physiology as mammals is, is, isincredible, I think in, in the sense that
we are not complete when we are born.
You know, are just kind of given a setof instructions of this is how to finish
off developing and, you know, go for it.
And, and, and, uh, I think a lot to do is,a lot of of it is to do with our obviously

(36:44):
our size and, and kind of because of,obviously if we were adults and, and being
carried by our parents, then that that'snot really gonna work on a, on a kind
of practical perspective, um, as well.
But I'm thinking, yeah, there'ssome interesting, interesting kind
of, sort of looking at, if we lookat it across species and the, and
the way they you know, different,different species approach kind

(37:08):
of development is, is incredible.
I mean, if you compare it to like.
Even, you know, horses and giraffesthat will just kind of be born and just
be wandering about on their own, is so

Yeah.

Daniel (37:20):
as like humans and dogs that are just pretty useless

Mm.

Daniel (37:24):
born, unfortunately.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, the word resilience is kind (37:26):
undefined
of ba batting around for me as well.
And that built, that's on our, that'smy next section about resilience.
Actually.
I was just, that was a word that wassort of coming through, so brilliant.
Leading us nicely onto what helps, sobuilding resilience and connection.
So what should we, what should weprioritize during the adolescent phase and

(37:48):
what actually helps our dogs cope, Daniel?

Daniel (37:51):
So I think one thing that we can do during the adolescent phase and
ideally really before the adolescentphase from when we first get our
dogs, is think about that connection.
I think that's a

Mm,

Daniel (38:02):
kind of link there, resilience and connection, because I think

undefined

Daniel (38:06):
that relationship.
Between the caregiver and the dog is soimportant for resilience and emotional
wellbeing Longer term we know thatdogs are incredible in the sense that
they, the way they form relationshipswith their human caregivers is mimics
on both ends of our physiology.

(38:28):
On our physiology.
And in terms of the dog'sphysiology mimics the

Yeah.

Daniel (38:33):
relationships that we see between human infants and their

Mm-hmm.

Daniel (38:38):
you know, what you'd see whether between a child and their
mom, their dad, or caregiver.
And that attachment relationshiphas a few special features.
So it has what's known asthe secure base effect.
So if the infant is around theircaregiver, they are, their caregiver
acts as a secure base and gives them moreconfidence to explore that environment.

(39:02):
Distress upon separation as well.
So if the caregiver is, if the infantis separated from the caregiver,
often there'll be signs of distress.
And I think that's a, an an importantone also, when we're talking about things
like separation anxiety, because actuallysome distress and discomfort on upon
separation is a normal and healthy thing.

(39:23):
we need to do as, as, as well, bothobviously behaviourists or caregivers,
is actually make sure we help our dogrealize that and understand that this
is not the end of the world kind of

Yeah.

Daniel (39:35):
thing that you can, that, you know, it's,

Hmm.

Daniel (39:37):
not, it's not your favorite thing in the world, but it is something
you can adapt to and cope with.

Yeah.

Daniel (39:41):
we've got these kind of features of an attachment relationship,
these amazing features that, thatthat that connection is so valuable.
And, and actually we also know the,that dogs and humans that have stronger
attachment relationships actually.
Tend to show more responsivity.

(40:02):
The dose dogs tend to show moreresponsivity to their caregivers
during that adolescent phase.
So if you've got that kind of strongattachment relationship with your dog,
actually one benefit of that is yourdog probably will still show a little
bit of a dip in responsiveness whenit hit, when they hit adolescence.
But that dipping responsiveness might bemitigated a little bit by that stronger

Mm

Daniel (40:22):
relationship.
So I think attachment buildingsa really, really key thing there,
and I think there's a lot thatwe can think about it comes to

Yeah.

Daniel (40:29):
building.
I think one absolute key fundamentalwhen we're thinking about attachment
building is being sensitive.
To the dog's needs and being

Mm.

Daniel (40:40):
to any signs of distress, being sensitive to signs of enjoyment and
happiness and joy as well actually beingwhen your dog is enjoying themselves,
trying to share that experience withthem and saying, oh, that's great.
You know, and just, you know,like the good times as well, but
also when, when something badhappens, not trying to ignore it.
And there's so much kind of badadvice that are out there about kind

(41:00):
of ignoring your dog when they're,when they're fearful or ignoring
your dog when they're stressed.
And actually that's reallycounterintuitive because, you know, if we
are scared as humans, if someone comfortsus, you know, if, if your friend, your
parent when you're young, you know,comforts you and, and says, oh, it's okay.
When you are scared of somethingthat doesn't reinforce you, that

(41:22):
doesn't make you think, oh, I'mgonna be scared tomorrow night.
'cause that was great, I gota load of attention from that.
This is not how it works when, whenwe're talking about an emotion.
And it's absolutely the same with dogs.
If our dogs are scared of something and,and, and, you know, feeling fearful,
actually responding to that and offeringsome reassurance is a really good thing.
And then helping them move on fromit as well, helping them then kind

(41:44):
of turn around and like maybe look tothat next activity, do something else.
And there's some, you know, reallygood work out there people looking
at attachment and kind of looking athow we can really kind of facilitate
that strong human dog relationshipbetween dogs and their caregivers.
So I think yeah, definitely, definitelythinking about that sensitivity
that, that caregiver sensitivity isa really, really good place to start.

(42:07):
I think also being a

Yeah,

Daniel (42:08):
good things for the dog is another, really another really
important element of buildingthat attachment relationship.
So, you know, intro, setting up fun stufffor your dog, showing them Sarah Fisher
does amazing work with um, ACE Free work.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: she does. (42:22):
undefined

Daniel (42:23):
a good opportunity for building that attachment relationship because
you can go around and you can goaround these different stations and
you can engage with 'em and your dogand you say, oh, what are you doing?
Oh, is that a fun one?
Yeah, that's great.
What did you think of this one?
Didn't like this one so much.
We won't set up this one next time.
I'm not gonna try and explainit in a huge amount of detail
because I won't do an amazing job.
But I, I'd say definitely anyone that'skind of looking for something to, to work

(42:47):
on that attachment relationship with theirdog, ACE Free Work is another amazing,
uh, a tool for your toolbox in that regard

Yes, it often gets mentioned on this podcast
ACE Free Work and Sarah, and we've got,we've actually got her coming on soon.
She's a very busy lady.
So a little reveal for our listeners.
She is coming on soon.

Daniel (43:07):
her up then.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, yeah. (43:09):
undefined
But like, she's so busy and I'vestruggled to tie her down to a date.
Bless her.
'cause she's got obviously, so she's justso busy and she's amazed at what she does.
But yeah, literally, I think on prettymuch every episode, Sarah and Ace free
work gets mentioned, so I love that.
I can't wait to have her on andto speak to her more about it all.
Brilliant.
So, are there ways to support ourdogs through emotional surges and

(43:34):
off days in inverted commas, Daniel?

Daniel (43:37):
Yeah, so I think, you know, again, searches, I suppose that's kind
of links back to what we were talkingabout in terms of that emotional,
that limbic system in the brain kindof causing some of those emotional
responses to be a little bit moreexaggerated perhaps than we would
typically see when the dog was a puppy.
And I think,

Hmm.

Daniel (43:58):
you know, things like emotions and the physiological changes that
come with them, there is a littlebit of recovery time from that.

Yeah.

Daniel (44:06):
amount of time necessarily, and is what you do with the dog as well?
The kinda the quality of the, thetime spent after that, uh, sort
of maybe strongly felt emotion andtypically I'm thinking of maybe a
more of a negative emotion here.
But actually

Hmm.

Daniel (44:22):
apply to positive emotions as well because if a dog has been out playing with
their friends and having lots of fun andbeing very excited in a very high arousal
situation, that can also take a bit ofrecovery time from, I think we all kind of
know sometimes if we take our dog out andthey've been playing around for ages, they
can sometimes seem almost a bit too hyped.
Coming outta that situation, you're

Yeah.

Daniel (44:40):
you've been playing for ages.
Why aren't you just sleeping?
And some dogs will just sleep.
And actually that's an issue in itselfif you've overti a dog and they've just
kind of gone to sleep, because that meansthat then we've got a dog that, that,
you know, might have, we might have usedup a bit much of their kind of emotional
tolerance and we've tied them out somuch that they might really struggle to

Mm

Daniel (44:59):
longer term as well.
But

mm

Daniel (45:02):
sorry I'm jumping around a little bit, but

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No, I don't apologize. (45:04):
undefined
It's absolutely fine.

Daniel (45:07):
I think

Yeah.

Daniel (45:08):
emotional searches, there's a few things in terms of kind
of a small or, or a high arousalemotion, whether that be good or bad.
There's a few things in termsof helping our dog recover.
I think the first thing is time.
Generally, you know, it's maybe a coupleof hours for some of those hormones
and, and, um, hormonal responsesto kind of rebalance and for the

mm.

Daniel (45:28):
kind of achieve homeostasis again, where they're all their physiology kind
of gets to that kind of nice balance.
So that's usually gonna be a coupleof hours for things like cortisol
levels to go down, cortisol being the

Hmm.

Daniel (45:41):
involved in stress, whether that be a good

Yes.

Daniel (45:44):
or a bad stressor.

Yeah.

Daniel (45:47):
and, and also an activity that helps that dog come down.
And, and that can lookdifferent for different dogs.
Some dogs

Hmm.

Daniel (45:55):
to grab something and choose something, and that seems
to actually really, really helpthem kind of regulate themselves.
Again, some dogs like to

Yeah.

Daniel (46:02):
Some dogs like things like your lick mats, like,

yeah.

Daniel (46:05):
different surfaces that they can access, paste and stuff off.
Kongs, frozen stuff,

Mm-hmm.

Daniel (46:10):
thing.

Mm-hmm.

Daniel (46:12):
do like that dissecting side of it, like a chew that they can take
apart and dissect and really crunch on.
So it depends on the dog and I thinkthat's where, you know, learning
about your individual dogs isreally Im dog is really important.
So you can start to gather thatinformation in terms of actually what
helps my dog, what helps this dogfrom a more high arousal environment.

(46:36):
Whether that be something as likeplaying with friends where we got
very excited or something like the doggot spooked by something and we need
a little bit of a break from that.
Some dogs will go

Yeah.

Daniel (46:48):
will be able to have a snooze after something like that.
Some dogs will struggle more tosnooze after something like that.
Having a sleep definitely does helprebalance some of that physiology, but
actually getting into that sleep stateis something we might need to kind
of help our dogs with a little bit.
Definitely

Yeah.

Daniel (47:05):
available is good though.
I think making sure, you know, wegive the dog some options in terms
of, you know, what they want to do.
Maybe seeing if they want to chew, maybeseeing if they want something to lick
on, maybe seeing if they want to kindof onto something and have a little
gentle game of tug with something,you know, not a full on game of tug.
Generally I wouldn't go for, in thissort of situation, for the most part.

(47:28):
there may be exceptions.
I don't, I haven't worked with every dog.
But

yeah.

Daniel (47:31):
of a, sort of a low key game of tug with a bit of biter,
of snappy kind of, you know, ifyou do, you know what I mean?
Like the, I could do the little

Yeah,

Daniel (47:39):
know, yeah.
We kind just low key tug.
It's, yeah.

yeah.
I get you.
Brilliant.
So what role does connection andco-regulation play in helping our
dogs feel safe and understood?
Daniel?

Daniel (47:56):
So, yeah, I think.
Connection is, is super important.
I think that kind of links back tothe kind of what we were talking about
in a little bit, about in, in someof that attachment side of things.
And obviously if we've

Mm-hmm.

Daniel (48:11):
relationship, then that's gonna make it a lot easier for that dog
to feel safe because they know they,they're, they're of brains are set
up to learn that if they've got thispredictable, sensitive caregiver, then
that is a signal for safety for them.
And then

Yeah.

Daniel (48:27):
the other one you said was co-regulation.
I think that's actually.
A really important way that we cansometimes see this go to the next
level because I think one aspect ofco-regulation is, is we, we see this
some kind of physiological level.
We know that if we're engaging withour dogs, particularly kind of tactile
engagement, we start to see things likeoxytocin, this kind of hormone involved in
social bonding starting to to be released.

(48:50):
We also start to see, um, endogenousopioids released in our brain.
So these are these kind of newerchemicals that are involved in
helping us feel safe and happy.
so we

mm.

Daniel (49:02):
to see all these things happening and both the dog and
the human end typically as well.
And

Mm

Daniel (49:07):
we also, another interesting feature of attachment
is something called joint attention.
what that means is if, for example,you, you've, you know, you've look
at a parent that's got an attachmentrelationship with their infant.
If the infant looks at something, theparent will tend to, to look towards that.
And equally, if the
At something, the infant willtend to look towards that.
So their attentionalsystems start to link up.

(49:30):
We start to see the

hmm.

Daniel (49:31):
lot of interest in what the parent is looking at, the parent sharing a lot of
interest in what the infant is looking at.
And actually that's areally valuable feature.
And I think dogs, thereis some evidence for this.
I think one way in the sense that the,the human will look at something and
then the dog will follow that attention.
And, this is really, reallyinteresting in the sense that.

(49:53):
Again, we can use this to start helpingthe dog regulate themselves because we
can use our attentional system to startencouraging the dog to follow us, follow
our attention, and engage in somethingthat is gonna help them regulate.
You know, it

Hmm mm.

Daniel (50:07):
setting up a li map, is that something we can do?
You know, can we take it to thenext level again by not just
setting it up in the kitchen.
There you go.
Li map off you go crack on with it.
But actually sitting there andkind of adding a little bit to it.
Oh, have you done?
Should we add a bit more to it?
Yeah.
Oh great.
Should we do a bit more here?
Okay.
Do you wanna do something else now?
Should we look at this activity?
So actually kind of sharing andbeing a part of those activities

(50:29):
with your dog can be really valuable.
I'll just have a caveat as I'vegiven that particular example.
If you've got a dog that guardsresources, don't do that.
But the most part, you know, somethingwhere we can share that kind of
activity can be really, really valuable.

Perfect.
Brilliant.
Right.
We're gonna be moving on to our finalsection before we start wrapping up.
Literally, we've sailed for,it's been, my mind is buzzing.
Um, full of so much useful info.
It's been brilliant.
So the human experience,guilt, frustration, and fear.
What, why is this phase so toughemotionally for guardians, Daniel?

Daniel (51:08):
Yeah.
So I mean, that's, that'sa really good question.
I think, you know, I'm obviouslycoming at it from my perspective
as a behaviourist, so I

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's cool. (51:16):
undefined

Daniel (51:17):
am, am an expert in terms of human sort of

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, no, it's okay. (51:21):
undefined

Daniel (51:23):
and, and wellbeing.
But I, I think just in terms of, in termsof what I see, I think, there's a lot
of, there's a couple of things actually.
I think there's a lot of expectationsthat we place on ourselves as, you
know, dog caregivers in terms of,you know, we'll adopt a dog, we'll
do all this work, you know, we canput in a lot of work, and then I.

(51:46):
If we start seeing that going downhilland going off track a little bit, then
that can feel, that can, you know, itcan feel like you failed in some way
and, and, and, you know, it can feellike you're doing something wrong.
It can be obviously really frustratingbecause suddenly we've done all this
work, we've put all this effort in andthe expect, you know, the, the sort
of reinforcer that we were expectingas a human of the dog kind of being

(52:08):
able to cope in this environment andbehave in a way that we might want
them to as humans isn't happening.

Mm.

Daniel (52:15):
And I think that's where sometimes help helping people
make that shift in thinking isreally important to say actually.
Well, you know, I think we have tounderstand that the dog's an individual
they're having their ownindividual emotional experience.

(52:35):
And just because we've done all thatwork and just because we've tried
to teach them all those things,that doesn't change the fact.
something's going on for them,that's making 'em feel a bit
differently about stuff now.

Mm.

Daniel (52:48):
that's not a reflection on, on you a caregiver, but it's just a reflection
of that dog's emotional experience.
And I think it's, it's weird thedog industry, because I think we
are, are almost taught to sort ofoversimplify yet also overcomplicate
our dog's experience, which is weirdin the sense that we are kind of
overcomplicating in the sense of thinking.

(53:08):
They have an understanding of allthese cues perfectly and they have
an understanding of how to disobeyus and upset us by disobeying us,
which is not necessarily the case.
Dogs don't, we don't think theydo have a good enough theory of
mind to know that if they don'tfollow the cue that we want them to
follow, then that's gonna annoy us.
really have the theory of mind to do that.
But they certainly do have anemotional experience that's more

(53:29):
complicated than their life revolvingaround, you know, 10 or so cues.
So.
You know, they, they have the kindof their, their emotion, their limbic
system is very, very similar to ours.
It's only kind of some of thosecognitive systems that are a little
bit different, where they're notgonna understand some of the things
like what other people are thinking.
Some of those more complex sort ofhuman language and conversations

(53:50):
that we, we might have.
So it's, it is, it's difficult beinga dog, I think from that sense,
because, you know, the expectationspeople have are, are difficult.
And also society's expectations on what adog should do and how a dog should behave

Yeah.

Daniel (54:06):
huge in the way they impact people.
You know, taking a dog to a familyfunction, taking a dog out to
the park, taking to cafes, youknow, if your dog's not behaving.
How so?
How, you know, we think societywill want our dog to behave.
I think sometimes there is a lot of, youknow, guilt and shame and, you know, I'm

Yeah.

Daniel (54:24):
You know, I'm not as good as other dog owners in, in getting my dog
to, you know, behave and training my dog.
So I think, I think there's just alot that comes in there and it, it
can be quite a, you know, a difficulttime for, for a caregiver in that way.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's funny you say that 'cause (54:38):
undefined
we're a multi dog householdhere, so we've got seven dogs.
So we are the crazy dog men here,but there're only seven little ones.
So it's not like as if they're two German.
She seven German Shepherds.
But when you say, it just made methink, 'cause my husband always
worries about having people around.
He'd rather go to their house.
But what he doesn't like, likerealizes that they are all dog

(55:00):
people as well and they don't care.
Like he doesn't, you know, our dogsare not perfect by any means, and
he just worries about obviously likewhat people think, you know, because
they're a bit unroll or whatever.
And it's always the way when I'm meantI'm meant to be a dog trainer, but
their dog people and they don't care.
So you, you shouldn't,you shouldn't worry.
Should you?

Daniel (55:17):
Yeah, I think that's the thing is people generally don't
care as much as you, as you they do.
And I think, you know, it

Yeah.

Daniel (55:25):
us that, that hold ourselves to these kind of high standards.
And it's, it,

Yeah.

Daniel (55:30):
you know, it's difficult to kind of sometimes move away from that.
My mindset, even when you've gotthe information, like for example,
you know, we've just talked aboutall of this, but at the same time.
I could go in public and if a dog'sbehaving bad, you know, badly in sort
of inverted commas and doing somethingthey're not supposed to be, I could
be feeling a bit self-consciousbecause, you know, the, the, it, it

(55:52):
is just, it's so programmed into us.

Yeah.

Daniel (55:55):
and, you know,

Yeah.

Daniel (55:57):
When I'm talking about kind of badly it might be, you
know, trying to steal something orsomething like that, that maybe we
haven't taught the dog not to do.
You know,

Yeah.

Daniel (56:04):
nec, what I wouldn't do put a dog that's gonna be really distressed
going into a public situation in public,because of course that's not gonna be good
for their kind of wellbeing or, or thewellbeing of those around the dog either.
But I think, you know, if it's somethingthat that's just might be frowned
upon as maybe a little bit naughty,like, you know, trying to steal
stuff or maybe jumping up at peoplewhere they're not supposed to do.

(56:26):
You know, hopefully wecan manage it anyway.
Hopefully, even if we haven't yettrained the dog not to do that, we
can manage them and prevent themfrom doing that sort of thing.
But I think, you know,

Yeah.

Daniel (56:35):
it's most, most people aren't as bothered about it as, as you might think
they are, particularly if you were goingto a dog park or something like that.
But it

Yeah.

Daniel (56:42):
I know.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: How, yeah. (56:43):
undefined
Um, how can we manage our own expectationsand not fall into the trap of thinking
that our dog is broken and inverted,commas or naughty in inverted commerce?

Daniel (56:57):
Yeah.
I think again, it's sort of, it, itcomes down to just understanding that.
The really, I think things like the,the term naughty is, is is a difficult
one because don't understand ourrules and our expectations enough
to be naughty knowingly anyway.
If they're doing something that

Now.

Daniel (57:18):
naughty, it's just because they think that's a good thing for
them to do from their, based offtheir learning history, based off
their genetics, based on what theyfind reinforcing and rewarding.
They just think it's a good thing to do.
They just think jumping up on the counterand stealing some butter is a great idea.
They don't know that's naughty.
They just think there's food there.
I'll get it.
You know, like there's

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: They're opportunists, aren't they? (57:37):
undefined
So.

Daniel (57:39):
is a Yeah, there opportunity.
Exactly.
So.
I think kind of moving away fromthat, that mindset is keen to sort
of understanding that, you know, thatthey, I do think understanding that
they're not cognitive in that sense.
They're not, you know, advancedthinkers in that sense of
understanding our human rules andunderstanding our human expectations.
They're very advanced in many ways, andthat in, in their social processing and

(58:01):
their ability to be able to interactwith us and be able to love us and be
able to share as part of our sociallives incredibly, incredibly advanced.
But in terms of actually cognitivestuff and just knowing like the rules of
stuff, they don't, they don't get rules.

No.
And the thing is they are animalsand animals are like unpredictable.
So, you know, and anything, you can't,just, anything could happen basically.

Daniel (58:25):
mean, well that's the
Really, isn't it?

yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
How would you, what would you sayto someone that's currently feeling
like they've lost connection thatthey once had with their dog, Daniel?

Daniel (58:38):
Yeah, and that sounds really tough.
And I, I think, again, if that'ssomething that they're experiencing
through adolescence, I think,
you know, sometimes the relat, thenature of that relationship does change.
I think I've seen a lot of dogsthat do become a lot less cuddly,
for example, during adolescence.
And, you know, that, that I think canbe something that some people struggle

(58:58):
with because suddenly they've gone fromhaving this lovely, cuddly puppy to
this dog that's, you know, feels like,doesn't wanna know them, doesn't mean the
dog doesn't necessarily wanna know you.
It just means that maybe theyare, you know, a little bit more
independent, maybe some of thosereinforcer values and has changed.
And sometimes tactile touch isn't so, soimportant or so valuable for them anymore.
Or maybe it's just because their kind ofreward system has changed a little bit.

(59:21):
So there's other things in theenvironment that are distracting them.
That means that that kind of touchand engagement isn't something
they're prioritizing as much.
And.
I know quite often sometimes whendogs hit social maturity, they start
being a bit more tactile again.
But equally, you know, some dogs may justcontinue being a little bit less tactile
from maturity, and sometimes the natureof that social relationship does change.

(59:45):
And that's, you know, that's notnecessarily a bad thing at all.
We are coming at it as humans anddogs are coming at it as dogs,
and I know that sounds obvious,but as primates, have a different
way of showing love than dogs do.
If you look at dogs engaging with others,sometimes we get a headrest, sometimes
we get kind of a bit of body touching.
We don't get things like the bighugs and the picking up like that

(01:00:08):
we do as humans, whereas we lovea good hug and that sort of thing.
So we also need to recognize that kindof, that species differences in the sense
that dogs, you know, if a, if a, if a dog.
It has two pores around you, itprobably means they're gonna hump you.
It doesn't necessarily, doesn'tmean that they want to give
you a hug of the time, right?
Dogs don't really do hugging, so I thinkwe, we also have to just recognize they've

(01:00:31):
got a different patterns of engagement.
They've got a differentway of showing that love.
And sometimes it might not even bewith a lot of tactile touch at all.
Sometimes it might justbe being in your presence.
You know, some of the livestock guardingbreeds just love often just sort of being
like in the corner of a room, just partof the situation, just near you, but not

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour (01:00:49):
Mm.

Daniel (01:00:50):
of on top of you, which is probably quite good for
livestock guarding breeds becauseotherwise you'd just be sort of
immobilized the whole time as well.
Um, so yeah, I think just, justdifferent, you know, it is different
species, even different breedswithin dogs have different ways
of expressing their emotions.
And I think just trying to,trying to be aware of that.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Brilliant. (01:01:11):
undefined
Daniel, thank you so much.
This episode has beenabsolutely jam packed.
So we're gonna spend the next coupleof minutes just wrapping up with
some final thoughts and questions.
Daniel, if there's one thing thatevery guardian should keep in mind
during adolescence, what would it be?

Daniel (01:01:28):
I think it would be to sort of accept that your expectations
might be thrown off kilter alittle bit and just try and

Yeah,

Daniel (01:01:38):
as you can, because actually that's an

yeah.

Daniel (01:01:41):
and that's gonna help your

Yeah.

Daniel (01:01:43):
a well-rounded, socially mature adult.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, it's only temporary as well. (01:01:46):
undefined
So

Daniel (01:01:49):
Yeah.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: we teach you a lot of lessons. (01:01:50):
undefined
Daniel, thank you so much.
How can people connect withyou, learn more about your work
and get involved with a, b, K?
Because actually, before you answerthat, I was one question I did wanna
ask because I like finding out alittle bit about people's journeys.
So, and I've, I didn't ask you this atthe start, but I'm relatively new into

(01:02:12):
the industry, like seven years and allthese amazings of people I speak to have
been in the industry for quite a while.
But what you mentioned offline beforewe came on that you did some dog walking
to for about a year to get some hands-onexperience, but what led you, how did
you get into like the, the role you'redoing now with a, b, K and stuff,

Daniel (01:02:29):
Yeah, so it's, it's been an interesting, um, kind of journey.
I, I started off with someissues with my own dog.
Um, and that's,

right?
That's, that's, that's everyone, isn't it?
Everyone I speak to is issues same as me.

Daniel (01:02:41):
And and there obviously getting kind of the Behavioural
support going down that route.
And then, yeah, I sort of changedmy career path a little bit.
I was going to do a degree in English.
I switched that to do a degreein psychology, and then I did a
master's degree in neuroscience.
And yeah, at the same time Ialso started working with dogs.
I started off working as a dog walker toget that kind of, more of that hands-on

(01:03:04):
experience for I think just over a year.
And then kind of

Mm-hmm.

Daniel (01:03:08):
on the Behaviour and training side of it.
And, um, yeah, I think I setup a b, K in, in 2019, 2020.

Wow.

Daniel (01:03:17):
and yeah, we, so we started doing Behaviour consultations, that
kind of thing for I think the past.
Yeah, five.
Ish, five plus years now.
So we've had a, I've had aBK I've did a bit of work for
another company before then, but

Yeah.

Daniel (01:03:32):
terms of the, and, and the, yeah.
Past years we've started going,expanding more a little bit into,
I do, we do quite a lot of onlineeducation and educational stuff.
I do

Mm.

Daniel (01:03:44):
of expert work for legal cases, so it's kind of really
expanded, um, which has been, yeah,an interesting journey for sure.

So, let, we're gonna touch on the conference
'cause I'm gonna get my amazing ladiesat Yappily to get this episode out before
the A BK conference, which is in July.
So, um, we're in June at themoment on the 12th of June.
So we've got some time.
So just quickly tell usabout the A BK conference.
I got massive FOMO last year, so assoon as the tickets went on sale for

(01:04:13):
this year, I was on it like Sonic.
So please tell the listeners ourlisteners is I think ticket sales is
still open about the A BK conference.

Daniel (01:04:22):
open.
So we are, we are keeping them open tillabout three days before the conference.

Amazing.
Yeah.

Daniel (01:04:28):
are gonna close them.
I think both virtual and personwill close about three days before.
So it's our annual Behaviour conference.
It's actually the last one we aredoing for a few years as well.

What,

Daniel (01:04:39):
yeah,

no way.

Daniel (01:04:41):
it is,

Because you moved, you moved it, didn't you?
You moved it to adifferent time of the year.
Yeah,

Daniel (01:04:47):
Yeah, I was gonna, we're gonna do it as a, as a summer
conference going forward as well.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah, yeah. (01:04:51):
undefined

Daniel (01:04:53):
but we're gonna, we are gonna, I think probably do it bi-annually
going forward, so at least soit might be that we take a, a, a
couple of, a couple of years offafter this year just because it's

Yes.

Daniel (01:05:05):
amount of work is insane.
But it's, it's so exciting.
We've got an amazing lineupof people for this year.

Yeah.

Daniel (01:05:13):
got it's, it's a two day event in Ashford in the uk.
We've got online and in perand virtual options available.
So you can either come and joinus in person or you can join via
live stream and sort of enjoy

Yeah,

Daniel (01:05:26):
of your home, which is always good as well.
Especially for

yeah,

Daniel (01:05:29):
many of us surprisingly have dogs, so that can always be a useful
option if pet sitters are an issue.
So.
Got I think 10 or possibly even 12when I counted now because we've got a
couple of people doing a double talk.
I think we actually have 12 speakers.
Some amazing people like Dr.
Kathy Murphy, Bobby Bury, VictoriaStillwell, Trish McMillan,

(01:05:52):
Suzanne, Claudia, Andrew Hale.
So just a incredible line of people

Line up.

Daniel (01:05:58):
talking about, um, resilience in dogs.
So it's gonna be,

Yeah.

Daniel (01:06:02):
couple of days.
We've got some fun stuff goingon for the in-person as well.
We've got a couple ofextra seminars if you

I.

Daniel (01:06:07):
in person so you can bolt on a couple of

Yes.

Daniel (01:06:11):
really get some

Yeah.

Daniel (01:06:12):
in.
There's a cocktail

Yeah.

Daniel (01:06:14):
night, which will be a lot of fun as well, if you like a
cocktail or a cocktail and a dinner.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I, I definitely do. (01:06:19):
undefined

Daniel (01:06:21):
lots of fun stuff happening.

Yeah.
We're mindful of the date as well.
Daniel.

Daniel (01:06:26):
Ah, yeah, so it's the 12th and 13th of July.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, I got my tickets last year. (01:06:30):
undefined
As soon as I were on sale,I was at the airport.
Actually, I'm about to go on holiday, butI was like, right, gotta sort my parties
out, get my Hightower and tickets sorted.
And Daniel, just quickly, you've justlaunched your own podcast, so please
tell our listeners quickly about that.

Daniel (01:06:46):
So we've just launched the Brain and Behaviour podcast.
It's

Love it.

Daniel (01:06:50):
people, generally for dog professionals or people with a sort
of a very keen interest in dogs,um, or animal Behaviour generally.
We're doing a few episodes,not just dog focused as well.

Oh.

Daniel (01:07:01):
it's all about kind of learning about dog brain, animal brains and
Behaviour and kind of all the, everythingin between in terms of understanding
how Behaviour happens, where it comesfrom, how it links the animal's,

Mm,

Daniel (01:07:14):
how it links the evolutionary history.
And we talk some amazing guestsin, in kind of different scientific
fields, but also some from

I do.

Daniel (01:07:21):
the training field with more coming from more kind of a, perspective
as well on sort of a hands-on.
So yeah,

Yeah.

Daniel (01:07:27):
of really, really exciting stuff happening with that as well.

That's so, so you've got so much going on.
You've, I've listened to twoepisodes already that have come
out and have absolutely loved it.
So, Daniel, how can peopleconnect with you, please?
Um, tell us how they can, um,learn more about you and a BK.

Daniel (01:07:43):
Yeah.
So, we've got the A BK Facebookpage, animal Behaviour Kent.
Um, it might be changing soon aswe're doing a bit of a relaunch
over the next couple of months.
But if

Wow.

Daniel (01:07:52):
Behaviour, Kent, you'll, you'll find all of our stuff still.
But we'll also have kind of abit of a new kind of side to our,
our business coming out soon.
So,

oh wow.

Daniel (01:08:02):
name going on and, and, and it's sort of two things going on, that
will be why, as we're kind of startingto separate A, B, K, and the online
education side of it a little bit

Yeah.
Brilliant.
Daniel, thank you so much for joiningme on the Yappy Hour, powered by Yapper.
You are a fountain of knowledge.
I could listen to you all day.
We definitely have to get you backon the future 'cause I know you've
got some other interests likeneuroscience and things like that.
So I'd love to have youback on in the future.
But thank you so much for joiningme today on the happy hour.

Daniel (01:08:34):
No problem at all.
It's been fantastic talking to you,and yeah, I look forward to seeing
you in a couple of weeks as well.

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I'll see you then. (01:08:41):
undefined
Thank you.

Daniel (01:08:43):
Thanks.
I.
That was such an insightful andreassuring chat with Daniel Shaw.
Here are some key takeawaysfrom today's episode.
Number one, adolescence isnormal and a necessary stage.
It's not regression, it's rewiring.

(01:09:04):
Number two, emotionalwobbles are to be expected.
Your dog isn't broken.
They're just quiring.
Number three, connection andco-regulation are everything.
Your calm, consistent supportmatters more than perfection.
Number four.
You are not alone and you are not failing.

(01:09:25):
So many guardians go through this.
It's all part of the journey.
Daniel, thank you for givingus all permission to breathe.
Slow down and trust the process.
If you'd like to learn more.
Head to animal Behaviour kent.co
uk or check out theupcoming A BK conference.

(01:09:46):
And if you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, leave a review,
and share it with a fellow guardiannavigating the teenage phase.
This has been the yappy hour,and I'll see you next time.

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