Really Good People w/ Matt Lathrom

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What do fragile dreams, public grief, and indie film have in common? More than you might think. Mo & Matt Lathrom (from the last guest episode) start with an unsettling “protect the tiny creature” dreams and move through the losses of cultural icons, asking what kind of space opens when giants leave—and who has the courage to fill it. Along the way, they talk illness, resilience, and why a single look in a scene can change how you feel about a character more than any speech ever could.

Matt, a visual effects artist, writer, and producer, joins Mo to unpack what really happens behind the Sundance mystique: submissions with unfinished shots, the quiet bravery of showing work-in-progress to people who can truly see it, and the unspoken rule of respecting the room. From there they wade into today’s biggest creative fault line—AI. They challenge the myth of “AI actors,” the promise of cheap, automated storytelling, and why those projects become expensive VFX pipelines the moment you ask for continuity, pores, light, and soul. Productivity without purpose is a trap; the point isn’t more output, it’s better outcomes.

They also get practical. Where AI can help—scaffolding ideas, clarifying structure, reducing noise—it’s a tool. Where it starts replacing performance, editing intuition, or the moral labor of choosing what to show and why, it’s a cost we shouldn’t hide. Film remains our best empathy engine, letting us sit with people we’d otherwise never understand. If you’ve been waiting to start your script, short, or show, consider this your nudge. Begin messy. Share early. Keep the room respectful. And keep showing up, because the space our legends leave won’t fill itself.

If this spoke to you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review—what part changed how you see the creative future?

Instagram: @this.is.a.metaphor & @joyscout.mo

Email Mo: [e-mail]

Cover Design by: Joyscout Studio // For commissioned art & design inquiries: Joyscout Studio

“Don’t get Deterred, get Inspired”

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_05 (00:02):
Do you ever have those dreams though where you're
putting like you find a smallanimal and you decide that you
you know you want to save it orsomething or it's hurt or you
just want to get it out ofharm's way, and so you have all
these things to do in your dreamand you decide to put it in your
pocket, or like you can't carryeverything you're carrying, and
then you accidentally crush thistiny creature that you're trying

(00:24):
to save.
Or you injure it or it becomessome other creature or you just
forget about it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Yeah.
I don't know if you uh it'susually babies for me.
Like I'm saving a small baby,and then like I drop it, and I'm
I'm like, no.

SPEAKER_05 (00:42):
Today is a continuation of a conversation
that I had with my friend Matt,who is a visual effects
specialist, artist, mastermind,magician, um, storyteller.
He is a script writer, he is awell-rounded creative human, and
he was kind enough to have asecond conversation with me

(01:04):
because the first one well, itwas delightfully long, and there
was more that we wanted to todive into.
And so that's kind of the joy ofhaving your own podcast is that
you get to do to do that.
You get there are no rules here.
There are no rules.
When you're pursuing art andwhat it is uh that lights you up
and someone else is on board toto light up with you, um keep

(01:30):
going.
Like that's uh that that isexactly how to do it, I think.
If there's any right way to doit, it's the way that is fun.
Um and you get to make therules, and so here they are.
And today is exciting becauseour conversation just goes We

(01:51):
talk about a lot of stuff, and Ireally appreciate that about
him.
And one of the things that'sreally beautiful about what we
get to talk about is thatsometimes we find our way around
discussing film or orcharacters, or we reference a
lot of cinema because it's a wayto connect more with the stories

(02:13):
that we're telling each other,and just as uh wonderful bits of
of information that why youknow, you know, why would you
not want to talk about it?
Why would you not want to shareit?
And as someone who wants to verymuch be inside of the film
industry, that will be me.
Um yeah, I'll just eat it up allday, every day.

(02:46):
Like a project thing?
Like, do you think babiesrepresent projects or just
delicate things?
I don't know.
Or youth.

SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Youth, maybe.
I don't know.
I think of the movie uh eraserhead whenever that happens,
because you know, he deals withthe like small, fragile child in
eraser head.
He's like unwrapping thebandages on it, but then it
turns out the bandages are justlike its body, and so he like
opens it up.
It's like horrifying.

(03:16):
Yeah.
But I feel like that it triggerswhat I feel in dreams when I'm
dealing with a small creature ora baby and I accidentally like
kill it or hurt it.

SPEAKER_05 (03:27):
Would you recommend a racer head to someone who is
easily disturbed?

SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (03:33):
Really?
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
I think David Lynch is something you should
definitely watch.

SPEAKER_05 (03:37):
Oh, that's okay.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
R.I.P.
Oh man, it sucks that the worldis without David Lynch.

SPEAKER_05 (03:43):
I don't think I understood the enormity of his
work until like after thispassing.
And then I think that kind ofsometimes happens when people
pass.
I think people that you thinkyou have more time with too in
their careers, but he was like alot older than I think I thought
that he was too, which yeah, notthat that matters because you
can die at whatever age, butyeah, um that was shocking, and

(04:07):
yet I don't know, he was one ofthe people that's passed.
He was at the beginning of thisyear, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Or was it the yeah, because of the fires.

unknown (04:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
Because he had emphysema and him having to
move, and you know, there's justa California fires were too
much, and so he declined prettyquick.
Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 (04:24):
I I heard that with Diane Keaton that her I don't
know if you saw, but like herfamily released a statement that
said like what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
Yeah, I only saw that she like her health
declined quickly over a week,but I didn't see why.

SPEAKER_05 (04:38):
She had pneumonia.

SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
Dude.

SPEAKER_05 (04:40):
I know, and I mean that will that will just it's so
tragic because like you know, uhpneumonia is one of those things
that no matter what age you are,and I think no matter even how
advanced we've become withmedicine and and like self-care,
it's pneumonia can fucking knockyou over.

(05:02):
I mean, it's like I hadpneumonia as a four-year-old,
actually.
Like I had pneumonia and it wasterrible when I was in the
hospital.

unknown (05:09):
Dude.

SPEAKER_05 (05:09):
Like most people are, but for an older person,
even like a healthy, vibrant,stunning person like Diane
Keaton.
Have you had pneumonia?

SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
I had it this year.

SPEAKER_05 (05:18):
What?

SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
I had it in I don't know that I don't think you did.
Uh I had it in January, rightafter the fires, I think because
of the fires.
Because I have asthma andallergies, and so I think that
it just you know disturbed mydelicate ecosystem.
And uh yeah, it was horrible.
It's the worst sick I've everbeen.

(05:40):
I lost 15 pounds in like acouple weeks.
Uh yeah, I was I kind of want tolose that again because I've
regained it and some.
I felt it was weird though.
It it was so first of all, it Iwas so sick, I ended up going to
the hospital.
I was on like two things ofantibiotics.
It was right before sundance.

(06:01):
So, like the day beforesundance, my lungs finally
cleared so I could go.
But it was so horrible.
It was like coughing all night,literally not sleeping at a
wink, coughing all night, beingI was lightheaded in the
morning, like almost passed out.
It was, and then my like ribswere sore for like a month, and
the cough didn't actually goaway for like six months.

(06:24):
I would say like two, like amonth and a half, two months ago
was when the residual wasfinally gone, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 (06:32):
When I was in college, I ended up getting like
walking pneumonia, and then thatdevelops into like bronchitis,
which is like maybe what you gotafter, because like that's the
the cough sometimes at last isjust the total aggravation of
your your throat and your chest.
And I ended up cracking a rib.
Oh I had fallen asleep in a verytight dress as you know, a

(06:55):
college student, and I wascoughing so bad that it was just
the the pressure was like and sotrying to heal a rib, and then
also having just nonstopcoughing, that was that was one
of those times where I was like,this is the rest of my life.
I won't this will never be thiswill never not be this feeling,
you know?
And and then one day you stopcoughing.

SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
And you're like, oh my god, whoa, I can I can
breathe again.
That dude, the let the the ribthing, I'm always I'm like, did
I break something?
Is it am I gonna die?
What's what's happening?
I thought I actually thoughtbriefly during it that I could
die.
I was like, especially withasthma.
I'm like, if something just goeswrong, you know, I've had asthma

(07:34):
since I was a kid, pretty severeasthma, and it was I was
coughing so much, and my lungswere so compromised, and I was
on like prednisone and all kindsof shit.
I was like, dude, if one thinggoes wrong, I am fucked.
Luckily, I survived.

SPEAKER_05 (07:53):
Do you when I I so I was I think I was 10 when I got
I was like sports-relatedasthma, and I remember do you do
you do you remember like whenwas the last time you had like
an asthma attack?

SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
I would say during pneumonia I had some asthma
attacks and briefly afterward,not like attacks attacks.
I haven't had an attack attacksince I was like a kid.
Yeah, but you had sports.

SPEAKER_05 (08:20):
Well, did you cry?

SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Did I cry?

SPEAKER_05 (08:23):
Do you remember I because I remember I just
remember the feeling of notbeing able to breathe, which I
think that most a lot of peopledon't understand like how
insanely surreal it becomes whenyou like can't catch your next
breath, and then your bodystarts going into overdrive
trying to accommodate, and thensuddenly, like you are there's

(08:46):
like a different type of fear.
And I remember as a kid, likeI'd have an asthma attack every
game, and I would start I wouldjust involuntarily be like
bawling my eyes out just becauseof like being maybe very
aggravated athletically, andthen like your insides are like
screaming for air.
But was it like that for youwhen you were when what was like
aggravating for you?

SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
Yes, there were times I cried.
I had it since I was reallylittle, and a pretty good amount
of my growing up when I wasreally little was asthma attacks
like every night.
So I think I eventually kind ofgot used to it, but I would say
there were definitely timeswhere it was so bad I probably
cried.
But I've had control of myasthma and allergies pretty well
since I've been an adult.

SPEAKER_05 (09:32):
That's that's insane.
How long did that last for?
For like every night or everyother night?

SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
Years.

SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
Because they hadn't come out with any medicine that
really controlled it well untiluntil they came out with
singular.
And then I've been on singularsince I was like 13 or something
like that.
Take it every day since I waslike 13.

SPEAKER_05 (09:57):
That's cool that it still works though, because
sometimes the longer you're onsomething, it's like, well, we
gotta find something new.
And then just the process ofsomeone trying to find a new
medication is trial and error,which is frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
Yeah, when I get off it, I can definitely feel it.

SPEAKER_05 (10:18):
So we're gonna we're doing something today, which is
basically going again after ourfirst recording because one is
learning myself, learning audioand I think pace and and
feedback, and I always fuckinglove talking to you.
So you were quite a friend andand said that you would record
again.
And I think it's important tolet the people know that I said

(10:41):
your name wrong, which I can'tremember if I said it was so
close, but it's Lei, right?
Like Lathrum.

SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
Yeah, Lathrum.

SPEAKER_05 (10:50):
Lathrum.
So it's like a um, it's more ofa um.

SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (10:54):
And yeah, I say Lothrum.
And I am sure a few years I'msaying it this way.
And as I was recording the introlast week, or I guess a week and
a half ago, I was like, what ifI don't say his name right?
And I had this glimpse of thismemory of me, of you telling me
like years ago, maybe when Iwhen I saw you in Los Angeles,

(11:16):
but they say it, but time isfunny and fickle, and names are
just there's not a rule.
There's not really a rule unlessyou know the rule.

SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Exactly.
And yours is Houston, right?

SPEAKER_05 (11:32):
I have had people have it used to be Houston, I
think.
It was like a I mean, I don'tknow for sure, but there's
there's some rules in my familythat say that maybe during the
50s it was changed to Houstonbecause you know, a little bit
after the war, Houston has somequite a bit of German-ness in
it.

SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
So I kind of like Houston, the Houston that Mo
built.

SPEAKER_05 (11:54):
It is it is I such a fun, it is actually a fun name,
I think.
However, my mom's maiden name isRitten House, and so a very cool
combination of house, somethinghouse.
I don't know if that'smanifested in some way.

SPEAKER_00 (12:07):
Maybe something that was a really cool name up until
maybe four years ago.

SPEAKER_04 (12:13):
Rittenhouse?

SPEAKER_00 (12:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (12:15):
Wait, is there wait?
Uh who am I?
Who am I?
Is there like a person that I'mnot?

SPEAKER_00 (12:20):
I mean, I really don't want to go there, but Kyle
Rittenhouse?
Kyle Ritten House.

SPEAKER_04 (12:25):
Kyle Rittenhouse.
Okay, never mind.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (12:28):
I was uh I wonder my mom has a cousin's name who's
Kyle, but I don't think he's aRittenhouse, which is hilarious.
But my brother is a Kyle, so youknow maybe just parallel
universes of total chaosexactly.
I thought you were talking aboutsome written house, and I'm
like, that was a long time ago,so I feel like that's not that's

(12:51):
not what's going on.
Yeah.
Are there things that you wantto talk about today?

SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
I want to talk about whatever you want to talk about
and whatever we want to talkabout.

SPEAKER_05 (13:06):
I want to talk about a bunch of stuff, but also to
not force oneself.
I think, oh, you know, one ofthe things that we'd said that,
you know, we were just feedinginto each other's energy, and it
was maybe towards the secondhalf of our conversation, is we
were talking about a lot ofcinema and film, and you had
been talking about Sundance, andthen we talked about, I mean,

(13:27):
the day that we recorded was theday that Robert Redford had
passed.

SPEAKER_00 (13:30):
Oh, really?
Was it?

SPEAKER_05 (13:32):
Yeah.
Or he had just passed, I think,like either the like the day
before or the day that we wererecording.
And that was, I think that wasanother one of those famous
passings.
Because since then, Jane Goodallhas passed, and so has Danny
Keaton.

SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
Dude.

SPEAKER_05 (13:48):
And it's like I just feel like the internet always
rises to the occasion as far aspeople really sharing when
someone had a huge impact ontheir lives.
And with Robert Redford, I mean,I felt I felt sad when I saw
that he had passed.
And I, you know, I had seen Outof Africa a couple of months ago

(14:10):
for the first time ever, which Ithought was like, and it's just
a brilliant movie.
But I'm I've not seen a bunch ofhis movies, but I have certainly
seen, you know, films from hislifetime.
And and I remember every time hewould be on screen, someone
around me would just say, I justlove Robert, right?
I just they just love him, orlike, you know, he's so dreamy,
or like he's such a good person.
And and I feel like with thesethree recent passings, everyone

(14:34):
had something.
It was all like this was areally good person.
Like Jane Goodall was is themother of of chimpanzees, or
yeah, she was like a legendaryuh researcher in apes and chimps
and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
Which is a much nicer way to say what she did.
Or eloquent.

SPEAKER_05 (14:56):
I saw a quote which I think I I shared with you that
was saying, you know, and it'sone of these sort of mantras
which a lot of people areprobably adhering to their lives
right now to stay in a morehopeful frame of mind.
But it's like, you know, whensomething leaves, you make space
for something new and and and abit of goodness or greatness to

(15:18):
come in, you know, and it's likesometimes you lose things, but
it provides space.
And like I saw this right afterI'd seen maybe something about
Diane Keaton and how inspiringshe was as just an independent
female and a woman who seemed tobe entirely herself throughout
her lifetime and to not make asacrifice as to who she was and

(15:39):
how she believed herself to showup in the world.
Then to add on to this, so thisis a lot of this a lot of ideas,
but with the um with RobertIrwin doing the celebrity like
contemporary dance, did you seethat?

SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
I haven't seen it yet, no.

SPEAKER_05 (15:54):
So he is, you know, I followed his Instagram for a
few years now, just because likeit he just was so much like the
Steve Irwin that I remember, butalso like as his child, and then
seeing the family and just beinglike just always feeling so good
when I saw their post or likewhat they were doing, or like
how they interacted, how theytreated people, how they were in
the comments section, how theyhow they include themselves in

(16:17):
each other's, you know, onlinepersonal branding, really.
And their branding is very muchwho they are.
And so many people like repostedthis this dance, this this
tribute that he did to his mom,and which she was there to like
receive, and then at the end ofthe dance, she was up there with
him and they did an embrace.
And I was just like, whoo! Imean, I I was crying deeply

(16:40):
because like we were all therewhen Steve Irwin passed, and
like to be able to to somehowsee a kid grow up in the world,
a world that we all have someperception of as maybe being a
celebrity or walking into fame,like and to just be such a good
person, yeah, and like how we'reso hungry for people to like
from for model for role modelsof for good people, good people,

(17:04):
like we're so hungry for it.

SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
We just want good people, it's all we've had a
we've had a good like 20 yearsof all of our heroes turning out
to be terrible people.

SPEAKER_05 (17:14):
Ooh, that gave me chills.
You don't want to see the manbehind the curtain because it's
and then yeah, I mean, there's afear there too that you don't
want to see some of the peoplewho you still believe in deeply
to turn out to be like wildlycorrupt or not as kind as you as
you think.
Like, I was at a a barbecuegrill out or whatever a few

(17:35):
weeks ago, and we were allstanding around these, you know,
ribs that this person has smokedfor like 12 hours or whatever it
was.
And we were talking about Ithink it was like a movie that
had just come out and likefandom, and someone had said
something about Ryan Gosling,and then they were like, Oh
yeah, Ryan Gosselins, and I loveRyan Gosling.

(17:56):
And uh, the girl at the partywas like, No, we don't like Ryan
Gosling anymore.
We don't remember?
We know I know, and I was like,What?
What happened?
What happened to Ryan?
And I was just immediately like,I can't take it, I can't take
it, don't tell me.
Like, I don't want to know ifsomething bad.

SPEAKER_00 (18:09):
I don't know.
This is what happened with RyanGosling.

SPEAKER_05 (18:11):
And then I was like, Do you mean Ryan Reynolds?
That's what I you know, is thatmaybe what you mean?
And you know, it was just like,it's just on this side of the
camera, on this side of thescreen where she was just, you
know, feeding off of gossip andand media that was kind of
putting this person in not asfavorable light as they had been
in for a very long time, I wouldsay.

SPEAKER_03 (18:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (18:31):
And so, but like for her to say that about like it
was crazy how immediatelyeveryone in the room was like,
no, please, please don't takeanother person.

SPEAKER_04 (18:41):
Let him be good.

SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
Don't take away Ry Rai.
We love him.

SPEAKER_04 (18:46):
Please no.

SPEAKER_00 (18:47):
No.

SPEAKER_05 (18:48):
There's like a just uh a hunger for I guess too that
the idea of like making space isjust you know, how are you gonna
show up?
Like what it what impact dothose people have on like were
you a Diane Keaton fan?

SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
Not particularly, like I've seen her movies, but I
I wouldn't say that I was like afan.
Honestly, you know, I feelreally bad about this as like a
film guy, but I am not in likesuper familiar with the
filmography of Diane Keaton orRobert Redford.
Like I've seen a few movies, butnot like I couldn't sit here and

(19:25):
start like giving a dissertationon Robert Redford and Diane
Keaton's careers.
What did you like about DianeKeaton?
What what struck you about?

SPEAKER_05 (19:35):
I well, I it seems as though she was very capable
of completely maybe becoming therole that she's playing, and
there's a I feel like she had anability to be the very rational
one, very irrationally, like herability to show both sides of

(20:00):
really like maybe humanity andit's and you know, like the the
masculinity in it, which I thinkprobably comes out a lot in her
style, but also this just thislike softness, man.
Like, I don't know.
When I pulled up, when I pulledup my Instagram and the first
thing I saw was her photo, Iimmediately thought, this isn't
what I think it is.
Like that's what I thoughtbecause I thought that she would
be around forever.

SPEAKER_00 (20:21):
Yeah, you feel that way, right?
Like, especially when you grewup with them, all of these
legends, you're like, I didn'tthink about Robert Redford
dying.
When Arnold Schwarzenegger dies,that's gonna be like weird for
me.
That one's gonna hit me.

SPEAKER_05 (20:35):
Is that one of your big heavy hitters growing up?

SPEAKER_00 (20:39):
I think just being aware, like so aware of Arnold
Schwarzenegger for so much of mylife and like loving Terminator
and Terminator 2, and you know,being really into action movies
when I was young, growing upwith Arnold as like the action
guy.
When he passes, it's gonna belike, whoa, we live in a world
without Arnold Schwarzenegger.

SPEAKER_05 (20:59):
His ability to make you laugh, I feel like, is
something that I mean jingle allthe way, come on.

SPEAKER_00 (21:06):
Maybe not a masterpiece, but what a grateful
you were saying, like it's aquestion of do these like when
these people pass, is therespace to be filled?
Like, what is what is the spacewhen they pass?
Is there yeah?
I mean, no one can fill thoseshoes really, but you can be

(21:28):
inspired by them.

SPEAKER_05 (21:32):
Inspiration is deeply needed at the moment, I
would say.

SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
Why?
The world's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 (21:38):
The world is it's really coming around.
I feel like it's really shapingup, you know?
And there was a moment therewhere I was like, this isn't
good, but right now I feelscreened about it.

SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
Yeah, I keep like looking up, I keep looking up
places, I'm like, well, what ifI left the country and I look up
a place, I'm like, damn, thatplace sucks too.
Oh wait, no, this place isgetting bad too.
No, it's global.
What's happening?
But but I I think film isimportant in that way.
Because film can make you sitwith a perspective that you're

(22:07):
not comfortable with, and it canmake you feel for a person that
you wouldn't normally feel with,feel for.
That's why I like that's why Ilove film.
You can sit there and empathizewith somebody who you would
never empathize with if youheard about them.
Someone's like, Oh, have youheard about this person?
Oh no, I hate them, they'reterrible.
But then you watch a movie andyou're like, I feel for them
now.
I understand them.
And it's not even willing, it'snot even willing.

(22:28):
You're just being pulled alongby the narrative.

SPEAKER_05 (22:31):
I like great narrative.
There's um, because I know whenwe were talking about maybe some
of the talk points that we couldtalk about today, we were we
were wondering if maybe wewanted to talk about ice at all.
And it was like after we'd saidthis, I was driving around town
and I saw so many ice machines,you know, like the like just ice

(22:53):
machines where it was just biglike I C E and yeah, you know,
like cartoon ice.
And I was like, they might haveto rebrand, man.

SPEAKER_04 (23:01):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (23:02):
This might not be, you know, what is their I mean
they're pretty cold-hearted, soit's kind of kind of worse.

SPEAKER_05 (23:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
Bazinga.

SPEAKER_05 (23:12):
Oh my god, why did I bring that up?

SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
We were definitely you had just said something that
was like I said the world, wesaid the world's awesome, and
then I said I looked at placesto leave and go out of the
country, and I was like, oh man,everywhere kind of sucks.

SPEAKER_05 (23:24):
Okay, so when it comes to film being able to kind
of carry you away in a narrativethat maybe you would never have
experienced and or beencompassionate about, there was
this post by the New Yorkercartoon that was, you know, they
usually post cartoons, but theywere talking about they're very
much attacking anyone who'ssigning up to to work for ICE to

(23:46):
be an ex agent.
And it was one of those momentswhere I was like, you know,
you're like not, you're notwrong for like trying to like
show someone that like this isnot the most humane thing that
you can do.
But at the same time, I was sodisappointed in like how they
did it because they the youknow, it was a carousel post

(24:07):
like on Instagram, and it wasbasically saying that you know,
the same person who's being paid$50,000 sign-on, I think I think
it's$50K, isn't it?
Something like that.
It's like you're getting paid a$50,000 sign-on to hide your
face, and you're probably thesame person that didn't want to
wear a mask during COVID.
And it was like that's funny.

SPEAKER_00 (24:29):
I didn't thought about that.

SPEAKER_05 (24:30):
And I mean, you know, it's like funny, but like
it made me angry because I waslike, this is this is not the
way to do it.
Like it's divisive, and it'salso grouping people together
that maybe aren't in the samegroup because man, it sucks to
know that so many people aresigning up to do this out of
maybe being lost or angry, ormaybe some idea of patriotism.

(24:53):
I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Maybe desperation too, because jobs are hard to
get.

SPEAKER_05 (24:57):
And that's the one for me that I'm like, you're
being so alienating towards aperson who could probably use
$50,000, you know, and and whatthey're doing, maybe
technically, if they were doingit entirely by the book,
wouldn't be the worst thing inthe world, but it would be
morally gray and hard to feelempathy towards, you know.
And and we're growing up grownup in a world and an economy

(25:20):
that very much wants you to be avery rich person.
There's so much changing and andfluctuating happening with like
how one shows up to receivemoney in this world that I'm
like, how how dare you, NewYorker cartoons, to just yeah,
be that's not the way to deliverthe message.
I was like a lot of hate, andI'm like, I don't know how to do
it with love, but like I don'tthink this is the way, is how I

(25:40):
felt about that.

SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
Well, it's like I get it, I'm frustrated too by
them.
And the New Yorker isn'tnecessarily wrong, but it's not
the way, it's it's the leastcreative way to approach that
conversation, I think.

SPEAKER_05 (25:55):
Um That's a really good point.
It's I mean I expect more.
Like I expect more from you.
Yeah, a bunch of creatives, likea bunch of writers.

SPEAKER_00 (26:05):
Yeah.
It's like I really do feel likewe need to elevate the way that
we talk about things like this.
As much as it sucks, and as muchas decorum has been stripped
away, we need to like do thehard work of learning how to
talk about these thingsintelligently.
Like, I know that the world'sgetting dumped down, and you
know, there's this kind ofstigma against elitism and

(26:29):
intellectualism, but I think youneed it.
We need it because this is thealternative.
This is the alternative, the waywe're talking now and the way
the world exists now, where theclowns are running the country
and uh uh morons are runninglike big institutions, you know,
getting on TV telling youabsolutely insane things.

(26:49):
You're like, is this the worldyou want?
No, okay, then we gotta starttalking like it.

SPEAKER_05 (26:55):
I really wish I remembered word for word uh a
quote I had heard.
He was a Marine who had servedtwo tours, I think.
And so he had, I would say he'sone of those people who could
talk about what he thoughtbravery was, like a little
different than the averageperson.
But he had said that some of thebravest things that he'd ever
done were out of sheerstupidity.

(27:18):
And I was like, it was just oneof those sentences that was
like, whoa, you know, like gonnablow my mind because I feel like
a lot of people who have foundtheir way into a position of
power are deeply there's not asmuch of a I mean, just look at
like I guess what the WhiteHouse is posting right now.
Like, you don't have a bunch ofwriters on your staff, like you

(27:39):
don't have a bunch of writers,you're writing from a different
place.
And and at the same time, it'sjust as like it's the same, it's
either someone's really goodwith words and they're using it
to manipulate you, or someone isnot as good at words, and
they're just like maybe not evensaying what they think they're
saying, which is really thescariest part.
Is that like, do you know whatyou're saying?
What if you didn't?
What if they didn't know theabsolute like hate that is in or

(28:01):
the embarrassment I think that Ifeel in reading them at times,
you know?

SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
Yeah, well, we grew up in a I mean it's it's blowing
our minds a little bit becausewe did grow up in a world with
some level of decorum wherethere was an understanding that
you had to talk at least acertain way.
And I think we I think theinternet's just poisoned
everybody's brains, like thecomment sections and the way
that you can talk in theinternet, and the Overton window
has shifted and now and then wehad one person come in and kind

(28:29):
of break things, and I get thatit felt good to watch somebody
talk shit to a bunch ofpoliticians who you're used to
watching use language to concealthe truth, to watch somebody
come in there and like shattertheir entire system, but like
that person isn't buildinganything in its place, they're
just going in there with ahammer and smashing things.

(28:50):
That's a big that's a big thingI talk with people when they're
when you know I have a friendwho's you know into this, into
this stuff, and I'm like, dude,they're not building anything,
they're just smashing things.
Like, I'm I might be interestedif they're putting something in
its place, but no, they're justwrecking the Department of
Education, they're wrecking theeconomy, they're wrecking
regulations, they're wreckingSupreme Court decisions.

(29:11):
This they didn't put anything inits place, they wrecked abortion
and they just said, Oh, we'lllet the states handle it.
Okay, cool.
So you just like smashed it andsaid, Okay, somebody will figure
out how to fix it.
Come on.
The real hard work is sittingthere and thinking, I don't like
how this system works right now.
How do I get it to a system thatworks better?
And their answer seems to be,let's just smash the way it is

(29:32):
now and see what happens.
That's not, I mean, human beingsaren't coordinated or
intelligent enough to pick upthat rubble and make something
good out of it that quickly.
So a lot of people are gonnasuffer in the meantime,
unfortunately.

SPEAKER_05 (29:46):
Yeah, and we don't really have the resources to to
do that.
Like the time resource.
You know, it would be great tobe like, you know what, I'm
gonna set down my life right nowand I'm gonna fix this.
But like, who the fuck can dothat unless maybe Your life's
already wrecked, in which caseone would argue you still don't
have a lot of time to focus onanything other than yourself.

SPEAKER_03 (30:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (30:07):
So how do you feel about California at doing things
at the state level?
Because it seems like there'squite a bit happening.

SPEAKER_03 (30:14):
Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (30:15):
I mean, like AI comes to mind.
I think the most on the as faras what I can see from over here
is that there's like movement onlimiting AI, which seems kind of
cool.
AI representation.

SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
Yeah, like uh like Newsome sign the thing, where I
haven't read into it, I just sawheadlines that you can't use a
person's likeness with AIwithout their permission,
something like that.

SPEAKER_05 (30:37):
I think I saw too the because of the the actress,
the AI Tilly Norway.
Yes, that you know, it's it'sit's stupid, and yet like what
else is to be expected?
It's like it's like so stupid.
That's honestly the best waythat I know just put it with
you, is like it's so fuckingstupid because you understand

(30:58):
exactly why this person has doneit.

SPEAKER_03 (31:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (31:01):
And you know, she I think she's like 36, 37, the
creator of this this actress,this AI actress, you know.
Yeah, and she probably justwants to like fund her life in
some way.
And she's like, well, they likethat, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
Like, it's probably not the worst thing someone's
ever done, and yet the aftermathof it and the stupidity of it is
like but I don't know, I don'tknow, but I feel like I just
took that in a totally differentdirection, and we don't have to
continue well in that direction,but well, here let's put it this
way that is not the way to fillthe space left by people like

(31:34):
Robert Redford and Diane Keaton.
I don't, you know, the guy whocreated the Sundance Film
Festival.

SPEAKER_05 (31:41):
Man, how was what was the energy at Sundance this
year?

SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
Um Well, it was right after the well, I think
the fires were still going on.
So it was during that.
So obviously that was a topic ofconversation with everybody.

SPEAKER_05 (31:59):
Oh, wait, so I'm sorry, for some reason when we
talked, I was like, Sundance ishappening, Sundance that happens
at the beginning of the year,and right now you were doing
submissions.

SPEAKER_00 (32:07):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I was working on movies thatwere trying to hit the Sundance
submission date, which is notsuper strict because you're just
sending them a link to yourmovie.
So it's like basically themovies I was working on wanted
to have some key VFX VFX shotsdone for their submission, just
in the event that Sundancepeople watch their movie right

(32:29):
away.
Um but you can after submissioncontinue to update the Sundance
link so that when they do watchit, they'll see, you know, see
your movie the way you want themto see it.

SPEAKER_05 (32:40):
That's really cool.
That's really inspiring.

SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
I had yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 (32:48):
No, no, you go, you go.

SPEAKER_00 (32:49):
No, you go.
Uh yeah, I had a few movies, Ihad two movies in in Sundance
last year, and so we hit thatdate, and that was actually I
think one of them we we wereshooting for January.
Like they had already submittedit, but they you know, there was
a lot of like blue screen andincomplete VFX in it, and so we
finished it by like January forthe final showing because it did

(33:10):
get it in accepted intoSundance, so we wanted to finish
it by that date.
This year I was working onmovies that were submitting to
Sundance and South By tohopefully get in.
So we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_05 (33:22):
That is really inspiring because there's I
think when it comes to showingunfinished things, that it can
be it's like one of the scariestthings you can do if you're
showing it to someone whodoesn't understand at all what
you're doing.
And like if you don't know whatyou're doing, that their
feedback can be just wildlydemoralizing, or like you know,
just put a bit of a trip up inyour step, I think, you know, to

(33:43):
but enable to put it in front ofa film committee is like
something to like these peoplewho they know, like they know,
and like to be able to show thatyou know what you're doing and
you're not quite there yet, andfor them to still accept it is
just like that's gotta be like asuper invigorating feeling.

SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the energy is it is you knowit's weird.
You hear these stories aboutpeople walking out of movies at
Sundance, and after go, this wasmy first this last year was my
first year going.
I'm like, how do you do that?
That just seems reallyembarrassing and weird to do.
It doesn't feel like the vibe.
I mean, maybe I'm just not inthe right circles or didn't go

(34:20):
to the right movies, but I'mlike, I don't I can't imagine
myself walking out of a Sundancemovie.
Maybe it could be one of thosethings where they like walk out
of that one to go to a differentone or something because they're
like, well, this movie's turningout not to be so amazing, and I
really wanted to see this one.
But the idea of people walkingout in like protest because the
movie was so bad just seemsweird to me.

(34:42):
I you know, not every movie Isaw there was a banger, but they
weren't so like I wouldn't havewalked out on any of them, and I
finished them and I hadinteresting thoughts about them
and like got to talk to some ofthe filmmakers, but yeah, it
seems weird.

SPEAKER_05 (34:59):
I was it was and I was kind of an envisioning music
festival where you're like, Ilove this performer, but I'm
trying to make it over there bythe time that you know they're
going on at the same time, andyou gotta like make it across
the terrain to go see someoneelse that you also love.
But I don't think it's I don'tthink it's like that.
I don't think it's like that.
It's I mean it's film, it's atotally different experience,
and someone's telling a story,you know.

(35:21):
It's not an album that you'velistened to for three years
straight, or like, you know,can't stop playing the last
month and a half or something.
It's like yeah, you kind of haveto be present for the whole
thing.
And like, and you're kind ofthere to be present for the
whole thing, aren't you?
Like good or bad, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
I feel like that's the situation, and it can
sometimes be hard to even getinto a movie there.
So I feel like once you get in,you don't really want to leave.
I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_05 (35:46):
Why is it hard to get into?
Is it just a lot of people?
Depending on like a firstproblem?

SPEAKER_00 (35:50):
Yeah, and depending on the movie, there's like a
waiting list.
So, like there's a few movieslike I went and saw Bubble and
Squeak, which I worked on, andthere was a bit of a waiting
list to get get in on that one.
Like I got in, but the other twopeople I worked on it with, like
they were only able to get oneticket for us, and so the other
two had to try to snipe a ticketand get in on the waiting list.

(36:11):
Because they fill up fast,especially if it's a popular
movie that everybody wants tosee, it fills up really quick.

SPEAKER_05 (36:17):
Wonder if there's like a level of of gratitude
like missing at a certain pointwith the industry changing where
it's like you still show respectfor being there and like you
know, excited to be to be seeingit, like first eyes type thing.

SPEAKER_00 (36:33):
I feel like that's the way it would be.
Like if you walked out, thenit's like you kind of are not
currying any favor with thatparticular filmmaker.

SPEAKER_05 (36:42):
Yeah, that's very personal.
That that's like that's I wouldimagine that's deeply like no
offense, but like offense taken.

SPEAKER_00 (36:49):
Yeah, you're the guy who walked out on my movie.
I'm not gonna work with you.

SPEAKER_05 (36:53):
Yeah, yeah, it kind of goes back to what you were
saying too about the chiliNorwood, Norwood, Norwood.
Does it matter though?
I can probably say her namewrong, and it wouldn't mean
anything.
There's no history there.

SPEAKER_00 (37:04):
It's nothing.
It is nothing.

SPEAKER_05 (37:06):
It's not it's not years and years of ancestors
coming from other countries tosay her name with their historic
background and origins.

SPEAKER_00 (37:14):
She's nothing.
They typed into a thing.
What's a an all-American goodname for a AI actress with brown
hair, and it spit out like 10options, and they chose that
one.

SPEAKER_05 (37:24):
Tilly sounds cute.
Yeah, but it makes me thinkabout that, where it's just so
money-driven, and it's not aboutI mean, Sundance is about from
my end, my idea of Sundance isso much about the independent
filmmaker and the idea, and likegetting getting supported

(37:45):
through probably community andand people with a lot of
experience and like being ableto show a lot of like
forthcoming things and and andyet, yeah, it's like a trick of
the like like the an AIcontribution.
The I don't even know if shewould take roles from other
actors because who knows whatthe fuck, who knows who's
actually gonna utilize that andwhat they're utilizing it for.

(38:05):
Like, I don't know, maybe it'sactually a totally new industry
that would create hundreds ofthousands of new jobs.
No idea, but it's definitely notwhat it used to be.
Like, it's not you're notcontributing to to the art that
exists.
I mean, you're very muchcreating a different pathway, I
think, when you're and you'rediving into that world.

SPEAKER_00 (38:25):
Yeah, you're creating slop.
What's your perspective on likeas somebody who's not in the
film industry?
What's your perspective when yousee stories like that?
Because I have, especially beingin visual effects, I have a very
strong opinion about thatsituation.
And I want to know what yours isfrom the distance you have.

SPEAKER_05 (38:48):
I think it's it's complex.
I mean, do we know?
I would like to know actually alittle bit more about the
creator because if she has a lotof film industry experience,
that would that would make mesay something.
But like I think it's like thatfork in the road where I'm gonna

(39:10):
I'm gonna go from a lens that Ican hold more personally, which
is like everybody can have apodcast.
And I would not be against thatthat life because everybody has
something to say, everyone has aconversation that needs to be
heard, even if it affects fivepeople or 500,000 or 2 million.
Like, you know, it's likeeverybody deserves to to put

(39:32):
their thoughts out there and tocontribute.
And it doesn't necessarily haveto be because it's your next
business pursuit, but ratherit's like an offering that
you're giving that someone canlearn from or that you just feel
better by doing.
And so, like, you know, peoplesay, Oh, I want to have a
podcast, and then they want todo it just to like become super
famous or or you know, makemoney or profit off of it, or

(39:53):
put a bunch of ads on it.
I'm just like, okay, you know,like there's like a feeling that
you get when someone is doingsomething because they're wildly
enthusiastic and passionateabout it, and you're like, I'm
on board, like I want you tosucceed.
Yeah, and there's a feeling thatyou get when someone is just
like creating something becausethey want to profit off of it.
And yeah, and I feel that way.
You can feel it, you can feelit, and and it's like, okay,

(40:16):
well, what if everyone had theirown AI actress?
An actor.
What if I created one and youcreated one and everybody
created one and they were allup?
That's you know, I don't knowhow easy this is to do, but I
would imagine it's kind ofpretty easy to do.
But maybe the better you are atarticulating, the better you are
at editing, the better you areat writing, you're probably
gonna create a pretty phenomenalactress.
And so, like, if we all did itand everybody had some other

(40:40):
avenue of income, then I'm kindof like, that's not I'm not
opposed to that because thatcould help a lot of people.
And like, I would it would be itwould be exactly how I feel
about AI, which is very muchabout productivity, about easy
instantness.
It's not, it's you know, andit's about self-help.

(41:03):
I think AI is so deeply aboutself-help and self-reflection,
and like, you know, giving you ateam that you otherwise can't
afford, most likely.
And so in that world, I I meanthat's the only way that I can
see it where I'm like, I I cansee something happening there
that could be really helpful forthis kind of fucked world we
live in that requires so muchgoddamn money to exist in.

(41:26):
However, in the world that Iwant to be living in, I just I
just want people to be able toperform and and to be able to
have way more access to industryand and to be able to create art
that is like meaningful and it'snot just for profit.
Like fuck, I'm so you know, I'mnot opposed at all to making

(41:46):
profit on something wonderfulbecause like you should be
hopefully rewarded for makingbeautiful things and and doing
it with heart and passion.
But like it's hard to listen tosome people start talking about
what they're doing with AI andthey immediately are like, this
is automated, and this isautomated, and everything is
print ready or like supply anddemand, and like they're just

(42:06):
off putting all of the thingsthat make your life worth living
as a person, which is likesometimes doing the work and
sometimes showing up, and likethe fact that like the I think
every single human is an actor,like you are an actor, I am an
actress because you're justplaying we're playing a role,
you know, we're playing afucking role, and and now

(42:29):
someone is trying to take thataway from themselves, so they
don't have to they don't have toplay like I it's like what what
are you doing?
What is the point?
Like, what is the point?
And it's not their fault.
I'm sure we're all feeling thisway.
Like, what the fuck is the pointright now?

SPEAKER_00 (42:46):
That what are you doing that for?
When you say what is the point,you bring up the point, which is
we need to stop and ask whywe're doing anything.
So people, there's a lot ofassumptions built into people's
reasons for building these toolsand using these tools, and it's
well to increase productivity.
Increase productivity to dowhat?

(43:08):
What is the end there?
Increase productivity for thesake of increasing productivity,
increase productivity to bringdown prices because it won't
bring down prices because anygains from that productivity
increase are gonna be taken bythe people at the top.
That's just how it is, it's howit always is.
It's not gonna benefit anybody.
If you can be five times fourtimes more productive, they're
gonna give you five times morework.

(43:29):
That's just how it's gonna be.
The incentives are completelypoisoned.
And and Tilly Norwood, just toset it up for anybody who
doesn't know who Tilly Norwoodis and isn't connected in this,
but Tilly Norwood is a in veryheavy air quotes AI actress that
is getting lots of presscoverage because this actress
created this AI actress and istrying to get her representation

(43:53):
and people see it as a possiblethreat to the industry, and and
agencies were excited too, fromwhat I saw.

SPEAKER_05 (44:00):
I saw the agents like, okay, like send her over.

SPEAKER_00 (44:04):
Absolutely.
So if it if you would allow meto completely dismantle this
once and for all.

SPEAKER_04 (44:12):
Allowed.

SPEAKER_00 (44:13):
Okay, so I'm a visual effects artist and
producer.
I do digital graphics and inmovies and TV shows, music
videos, and stuff.
Very simply, Tilly Norwood isnothing.
It is nothing, it is a puregrift, and I'm not that's not to
say that the person making itisn't excited about it and
doesn't think that that thatit's a cool possibility.
I don't think that you have tobe conscious that you're
grifting to grift, okay?

(44:35):
But it is a short-term in themoment thing.
It's not real, it is nothing,and every single project that
tries to use Tilly Norwood isgoing to inevitably become a
visual effects project.
That's just what's gonna happen.
Because here's what's gonnahappen you're gonna use her,
you're gonna find it's clunky,you're gonna find that her face
doesn't look the same, you'regonna try to do a close-up and

(44:56):
the pores aren't gonna lookright, or it's gonna create a
random zit.
And then what's gonna happen isyou're gonna have to hand that
shot off to a visual effectsartist, and the visual effects
artist is then gonna have to fixthe shot.
And then you're gonna want ashot that you can't get because
no AI has been trained on thetype of thing you want to do.
It's just not gonna work.
So then you're gonna say, okay,well, let's just build Tilly

(45:16):
Norwood as a 3D animatedcharacter, and then you're gonna
hire a team at Framestore or MPCto build, which are huge visual
effects companies that are veryexpensive.
Then you're gonna have to builda CG version of Tilly Norwood.
And now you're just makingavatar.
So what's the point?
You have not automated anything,you have saved no money, you

(45:39):
have just turned what could havebeen a normal movie that you
went and filmed with a normalactress into a big fat VFX
project.
Like, what was the point of allthat?
And not to mention that youknow, people are like, oh, this
is gonna change everything, it'sgonna make it so much cheaper.
Okay, OpenAI is losing eightbillion dollars this year.

(45:59):
So exactly how cheap is it ifthey are subsidizing the cost?

SPEAKER_05 (46:06):
And if what is that what does that mean exactly like
they everything like theyprofited, right?
No complete okay.

SPEAKER_00 (46:15):
No.
No AI company is profitable.
They are losing billions ofdollars a year.
Billions and billions andbillions.
They are dumping billions ofdollars into this.

SPEAKER_05 (46:26):
Is that why they're implementing advertising?
Yes.
Like, okay.
You're seeing advertising is thename.

SPEAKER_00 (46:33):
What you're seeing is the the like the to quote
Corey Doctoro, theinchidification process of a
tech company happening athyperspeed.
So like the normal process of itof a tech company becoming
insidified is they make a greatproduct, get users hooked.
Once the users are hooked, theyshift their focus to business
users, get the business users inthere to take advantage of the

(46:56):
normal users, and they startstripping the value from the
normal users.
Then once the business users arehooked, they start shifting all
the value to shareholders, andthen they strip all the value
out of the product, give it tothe shareholders until there's
just enough to keep you hooked.
And now your product, which wasgreat and affordable, is now
terrible and expensive, but youhave to use it because you're
already hooked.

(47:16):
That's every tech company, andthat is happening with AI right
now.
Only it's happening way fasterbecause it's so unprofitable.
I actually did a very quickcalculation by running like a
like an AI model on my localcomputer, and then I calculated
the energy usage of my computerto do the generation, and I

(47:37):
won't walk you through the wholecalculation, but once I was
done, I was like, So to make amovie, assuming you have to
generate each shot 10 times toget it right, it's gonna cost
and assuming you have to dovisual effects, which you will,
your movie's still gonna cost$15million for a 90-minute movie.
So what's the point?
You didn't save any money.
You didn't save any money.

(47:57):
So just make a normal movie.
These things are justunprofitable until you ignore
what is nothing.

SPEAKER_05 (48:03):
Save money, and yet you're spending more, and it's
like gotten to the point where,yeah, it doesn't once what is
the point again?
Like, what is the point?

SPEAKER_00 (48:12):
What are we trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_05 (48:14):
Exactly.
And the I feel like this is acrazy thing to say, so I'm gonna
try to say it as delicately aspossible.
But when it comes to some of thevideos that I've seen AI do,
that I'm like, whoa, that isthat is a dream.
That is that's just dreaming.
I mean, that's how we think anddream when things become another
thing and another thing andanother thing, and that's how

(48:35):
you imagine.
And that's you know, that's awhole nother conversation.
But like when it comes toshorter clips where you're like
caught off guard a little bit,you're like, oh wait, no, that's
not real.
And you have to like check in,you're like, this isn't actually
this is a fake video, and thenyou see all the indicators that
say that this is fake.
Those moments where I'm justlike, we're not utilizing this

(48:56):
for the right reasons at all,because I feel like when it
comes, let's say AI is forstorytelling in some regard, it
would be for the stories thatyou can't that you don't want
for someone to have to act outfor the story that you don't
want to have to pay someone towrite that is maybe for a
bigger, better reason that's notfor profiting, like things to

(49:19):
change humanity.
Like, like when I think aboutall the the shootings that
happen at schools specifically,and like children being shot to
death.
That's not something that Iwould ever want to be like, you
should make a movie off this andthen terrorize child actors to
play these parts.
Like, I don't want to see that,and I definitely don't want and

(49:41):
I wouldn't want to pay a bunchof animators for a four-year
stretch of time to do some sortof animated feature on what this
looks like.
And it's like, well, why wouldyou ever want to see that?
And I'm like, I would not wantto see it because I can imagine
it.
But there's however ever there'sso many other Americans who will
sh turn the fucking what is thewhat is the phrase?
They will close their eyes tothe idea that children are being

(50:03):
murdered because they don't wantto think about it and they can't
see it because they're notvisual creatures, because
they're not imaginative, and sothey're just like, well, someone
will figure that out.
And yet, you know, that's notsomething that we would even
want to show.
Like this, there are videos outthere that exist, obviously,
that's that show kind of what'shappened on the inside to some
regard.
But I feel like what we weretalking about earlier, which is

(50:24):
that movies have the ability tomake you feel and to have
empathy and compassion forsomething that you would never
experience.
Like, you know, if somebody didan AI film that kind of showed
that in a way that would movepeople to create phenomenal
change, you know, or like at thevery least, create a better

(50:45):
school system that promoteshealthy children so they can
grow up and not want to shoot upwhere they came from, but you
know, make their communitybetter.
Like, that's that's like thatwould be like a wonderful use
for a platform that right nowwe're like, well, just make
money with it.
And I'm like, why don't you tryfucking saving a life with it?
Like, that would be cool.
Yeah, that would be really cool.
I would, I mean, you can you canbe eight billion in debt or

(51:07):
whatever for changing what feelslike decades worth of of
non-change, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (51:14):
Yeah, I mean, it's there's uh you know, there's
people in the film industry.
This is like an old phrase, likewe make money to make movies, we
don't make movies to make money.
Like this, it's for it's for thelove of the game, okay?
Uh, we do it because we lovethis, and you love the surprises
that come out of not havingcontrol and a performer

(51:34):
surprising you.
You don't get that same thing.
It's not the same kind ofsurprise when you get an AI
generation that's wrong.
It's just frustrating and weird.
But when you're on set and anactor does a thing that you
didn't expect that you nevervisualized, and it opens your
mind to a whole new pathway forthe movie or the scene or

(51:56):
whatever or the character,that's like inspiring and
exciting.
And that happens with writingtoo, you know, like the AI is
doing so much writing.
It's a glorified Thesaurus inGoogle search for me now because
Google search is so terrible.
Yeah.
So I'm like, okay, I guess Igotta use this to search for
things, or I gotta use this tofind words.

(52:18):
I still use thesaurus.combecause I'm old school, but you
know, we just I just wrote a aseries pitch with uh my writing
partner, and it was so hard.
It took us like a year, andthere is no part of that yeah,
and there's no part of thatprocess that that would have
been made easier, less painful,or better by using AI tools,

(52:42):
other than just to get quickinformation, like a glorified
search.

SPEAKER_05 (52:47):
I um my my coach, my my life coach, when we talk
about um scaffolding.
And you know, like in webdesign, you can say wireframing
and storyboard, you can likestoryboarding, I think.
It's actually two conversations.

(53:08):
I'm gonna try and I'm gonna tryand navigate the direction that
I want to go.
But like scaffolding is a deeplyneeded, like that is a place
where you could definitely use ateam and use uh uh feedback or
use a big space for visualizinglike what you're trying to do,
or like um an outline for astory or like plot, like like
like feedback in that case, Ifeel like AI is maybe pretty

(53:31):
useful.
And I've I've used it for thosethings quite a lot.
And right away, as a very uhjudgmental and pretty harsh
critic, I think like right awayyou can kind of be like, Well,
these all suck, but let's starthere.
Like, there's like there's a wayto just be like filter out the
noise, and it just helps you,you know what I mean?
It's not like it but I neverlook at it like AI is gonna

(53:52):
solve my problem.
Like, it's like, no, it's justhelping, it's just it's a tool
to like help you get throughyour own noise.
Yeah, and yet there's plenty offucking things that I've run
through that it really did notdo a good job with.
You know, I was talking to my myeditor the uh the other day
about an article I'd written,and he was like, There was a lot
of M-dashes in this, and it'skind of like I don't know if you

(54:14):
know this, but like that's ahuge ChatGPT thing.

SPEAKER_03 (54:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (54:17):
And I was like, I was like, yeah, I know.
Like you're allowed to take thepublishing-wise, you're like
take your grammar and run itthrough Chat GPT and correct for
errors.
And so, in a lot of ways,definitely is really good for AP
style, but also like I don'twrite an AP style, it's really
hard, it's a hard rewrite andrewiring of my brain to like
kind of fit this mold.

(54:38):
And so, like when I ran itthrough to be like, look for
these things, I don't actuallyknow what I'm saying.
I'm just like, this is what theguide says, like, can you help
me, Chat GPT?
And it spits out like it getsrid of all the commas and does
M-dashes because it's kind oflike the comma placement.
I don't know if you know, in APstyle is you don't want it
before an end, and then afterthat, I'm like my art brain was
just like, they all areterrible.

(54:59):
And so it was at this momentthat I'm like, I'm using this,
I'm using something that I wasguided to use, and it has like
still created more fucking work.

SPEAKER_03 (55:09):
Yep.

SPEAKER_05 (55:10):
And yet there are plenty of things that I would
continue and will continue touse, like Chat GPT for, as far
as daily thoughts and like, andand you know, getting through
the noise and finding clarity.
And I also like that it doesn'tknow the fucking answer.
Like that, how could itpossibly?
It's a reflection of all of us.
And I like having those momentswhere I'm like, that's not

(55:31):
that's not right, dude.
You didn't get that right, andit makes me feel like I'm paying
attention, like I'm showing up.
I'm not thinking there's thisall-knowing device that's gonna
set me straight.
Like, that's my responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 (55:41):
Yeah, you're the one who knows, it doesn't know.
It like I I really think peopleneed to we we really need to
call it what it is.
It is it is a text generationtool.
That's it.
It's a it is predictive text onyour iPhone on steroids.
That's all it is, and I'm notdiminishing its capabilities,

(56:01):
that's what it is.
Text in, text out.
That's it.
It's good at makingassociations, but it doesn't
know.
And it doesn't know because youcan say, Hey, tell me about
this, and it'll say, Here it is,here's the answer, and then you
say, No, that's wrong.
It's actually this, and it goes,You're absolutely right, it is
this.
And it's like, no, it's not.

(56:22):
I just made that up too.
It's actually this.
Yeah, oh, you're right.
I I didn't realize that.
It's like, come on, what is thisthing?
It is a reflection of you.
It is it's text in, text out,and and it doesn't actually
know.
You're just being sold a lie.

SPEAKER_05 (56:37):
Algorithm on quite a bit of crack, too.
Yeah.
Because I mean, it's like it'slike what you want to it's there
to support you in a way that itwill the more you interact, the
more it will be guided to giveyou the feedback that you want.

SPEAKER_00 (56:53):
So and I think I think it also highlights the
limitations of language.
I think that's a big thing weall need to take away from this,
is that language is yeah,language is only so capable of
capturing existence.
And that's why I like I mean,that's why films are great,
because it's visual and it'saudio.
You can feel things fromwatching them, you can feel
things from hearing them.

(57:14):
Any one of those things byitself isn't quite as powerful.
But when you watch a film,people say things, you hear
things, you see things, maybe alook triggers something in you.
I don't remember what I waswatching the other day, but the
character made a look, and menoticing that look totally
changed the tone of the scenefor me.
Just the way that they made anexpression.

(57:35):
I'm like, oh, they don'tactually feel that way.
They feel a totally differentway, you know?
And so there's a whole otherlevel of communication that's
happening.
But I think because words arebeing pushed at us so
constantly, we're looking atwords, we're sending texts,
we're reading articles, that wetend to start to think that
language is reality and languageis not reality.
Language is uh a collection ofsymbols that we use to point at

(57:59):
things in the world.

SPEAKER_05 (58:02):
It's it's like I think it touches the topic of
logic for me, where like logicis the thing that will make
sense of the chaos.
Logic is the thing that we'relike again and again will keep
us safe and make you feel securein the sense that you know what
things mean, whether or not youascribe that meaning or it was

(58:23):
taught to you.
And like it will save your lifelogic, but also it will keep you
so confined and it will startlike wrecking you if you don't
push against that what it isthat you think that you know.
I think, and like when it comesto empathy or emotional
intelligence, like a lot ofpeople, I think, don't trust

(58:47):
their emotional intelligence toany regard because they have
such a hard time defining whythey feel the way that they do
about something.
And they're like, Well, I feellike she didn't like that, but
they couldn't in any way tellyou why they thought that she
didn't like that, and so theywill, you know, abandon that
part of themselves by notwanting to look foolish, or they
will just over they will overthey will just lean on what they

(59:07):
can put words to, you know.
And I feel like when it comes tolooking at film and looking at
people making faces and thethings that it evokes inside of
you because you can read, youknow, I think you're you're
pretty um emotionallyintelligent and pretty empathic.
Not everybody, but do you do youdo you know uh in American
Psycho when they had uh WillemDafoe do the interrogation scene

(59:33):
in the first scene where he'sjust getting to know Christian
Bale's character, like he comesto his office.

SPEAKER_00 (59:37):
Yeah, Patrick Bale.

SPEAKER_05 (59:38):
And yeah, Patrick, thank you, thank you.
And and the scene as the viewer,what's happening is you are
watching Willem Defoe's uhdetective character.
And you feel uneasy, and you'relike, I feel uneasy with these
questions because he's basicallyasking uh Christian Bale, like
at first, he maybe he's afriend, second, maybe he thinks

(59:59):
that he You know, you're like,no, he definitely suspects this
guy.
And then on the like anotherfeeling you'll have is that
maybe he actually I don'tremember what the third one was,
but basically the director hadhim do they had them do the
scene like three differenttimes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:13):
That's cool.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:14):
From three different perspectives.
And so Willem Dafoe on the firsttake was like, You got you think
this guy's fucking guilty asshit, and you're gonna treat him
that way.
And but it's all the same lines.
And yet he gets to be an actorand say, This is, you know, like
this is how I would treat thatline if I thought this guy was
guilty as fuck.
And the next one was just like,Oh, I think the next one was
like, I don't want to be here,they're making me here, type

(01:00:36):
thing.
And so it's like not, you know,he just laid back and doesn't
care.
And the third one is kind oflike he's super curious, and
it's so interesting when youcombine curious with like laid
back, because immediately you'rejust like, like, do I try like
as a viewer, I just rememberbeing like, I do not know what's
and I could not put any words tothat.
But when I when I heard thatbehind the scenes, it made so

(01:00:57):
much more sense.
I was like, wow, that's fuckingbrilliant.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:00):
That's so cool.
And then they cut between them,and then you're like, what do I
feel in this scene?

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:06):
Yeah, and the power of editing and storytelling and
like knowing what you want youraudience to feel from one look
or one phrase or yeah, kind ofinsane.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:18):
People keep using the term democratize to refer to
what's happening, it'sdemocratizing creativity or
democratizing filmmaking.
I'm like, it's not really, it'sit's commodifying it.
Well, they think democratize,they mean, oh, now it's
available to anybody.
And I'm like, it already waslike maybe you can't get a
distributor to put your movie ina theater, maybe because you

(01:01:40):
don't have the rightconnections, or maybe your
movie's just not very good.
But these tools are notdemocratizing that, they're just
commodifying it.
It's one company takingownership of the entire process,
making you feel like you haveownership because you get to
type in a thing and it gives youa thing.
But it's really justcommodifying it.
It's just the capitalist systembuilding a new thing to feed off

(01:02:00):
of human beings.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:02):
I mean, it's like we're yeah, it's something
that's available to you that'snow being sold to you, which is
crazy.
Like you could already make afilm before and you could do it
in a lot of different ways.
Sure.
Now it's like, well, you can'tdo it that way because the
industry won't let you.
And it's like, no, it it's it'sjust like any industry, I
imagine, where you have to, infact, if you're not given the
gateway or you don't have theconnection, you gotta start your

(01:02:23):
own business, you gotta startyour own thing, you start from
scratch, which is the joy oflife.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:28):
We're chasing our tails.
It's like, you know, we are in asystem in which the the
incentives have been poisoned,and where this infinite growth
economy requires input, input,input, input.
It needs to eat, it needs to eatcreativity, it needs to eat uh

(01:02:52):
thought, it needs to eatproducts, it needs to eat
minerals, it needs to eat theenvironment, it needs to eat the
human body.
Like, you know, uh, people talkabout OnlyFans and the growth of
OnlyFans, and I'm like, I yeah,I think that people should be
able to do whatever they want.
I think that it's empowering touse your body in whatever way

(01:03:12):
you want that isn't hurting youor other people.
Uh, but I I see the growth ofit, the the explosive growth as
and also the explosive growth ofinfluencing in general as this
system needing food, and now theonly thing that's left because
it's eaten everything else isthe actual human body.
It's the last thing for it toeat before it just destroys

(01:03:35):
everything.
And we need to stop for a secondand be like, hey, maybe we
should find a system thatdoesn't require this much food
because it's eating everything.
It's eating our food, even likeit's eating our food and our
money and our houses and oureverything.
And now, and now, like, what youknow, the career, everybody's
like, what should you do?
You know, when people are like,what should I do?
I'm like, I don't know, start aYouTube channel, I guess,

(01:03:57):
because the only thing you haveleft is like yourself to sell.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:03):
Well, if you've made it this far, I want to thank you
for for listening and reallysend quite a shout out of deep
soul deep gratitude to thepeople who have reached out to
me saying that they havelistened to the podcast and have

(01:04:25):
given me um words ofencouragement and excitement and
just all the things that youknow you don't you don't need,
but you sure do love receivingbecause it just is like
sunlight, you know, more warmsunlight.

(01:04:46):
So I I do know that a big partof this podcast for me is to be
able to really show the behindthe scenes part of creating
anything, especially fromnothing.
And and so there is a lot ofmetadith to the layers of of a

(01:05:08):
podcast, especially if you'redoing the editing or or there
are people that you know thatyou're talking to, or you're
just talking to yourself aboutyour own creative projects, and
then it's and it's all deeplyinterconnected, and to be able
to to talk about it into thevoid and to have someone answer
back is really cool.

(01:05:29):
And I believe sincerely that ifthere's a part of you that wants
to begin something, if it's apodcast, it's starting a
website, it's it's uh dancing,it's playing an instrument, it's
uh picking up the camera thatyou said that you were gonna

(01:05:51):
learn how to use.
If it's building something withyour hands, just begin.
I swear to you.
You just keep showing up.
And it's a profound experience,and it will change your life.