Carl: joyful improv/all of life's a stage

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This is emotion art. This is a place to relax, let somebody else tell the stories

(00:07):
for a while, and just enjoy the emotional view. Every view I have of human
emotions feels like art. That's why this is emotion art. Shout out to Buddy
Anderson for all the original music and the great sounding audio. Check out his

(00:29):
music on Spotify at From Another Mista. Thanks Buddy, we appreciate you. And
Angela, thanks for all your help. Your creative help, your editing help. I
appreciate you. This is a conversation that I was very much looking forward to

(00:50):
because it is with Carl, a awesome, hilarious, and good friend of ours from
Dirt Road Brewing. He's always on a stage, he's always singing, he's always has an
accent and a flair. He really appreciates life and it just pours out of him. The

(01:12):
conversation was hilarious and I cannot wait to have another one. Carl, I freaking
love your art. The world deserves to see it. Thank you for sharing some of it with
me. Alright world travelers, enjoy.

(01:55):
Emotional art. It's all beautiful. Emotional art. A space for emotional art. Creative energy
moving outward, the unconscious expression. Emotional art. An emotion art gallery. This is

(02:15):
emotion art. You're welcome. So how the heck are you man? I normally hit record before right now.
There were so many funny things that were happening. Why wasn't I recording?
See ya. Bye forever. Well, well, well. That's a deep subject, but well said. Now you mean as in

(02:48):
deep as a well. You are the one that brought up the subject of wells. Because
well, well, well. You know this empty word we sometimes say before a sentence. But I've
always thought that it had like a jovial kind of comedic connotation anymore. Is it

(03:11):
deep or is it empty? Or is it both? Well it's a deep subject if you're talking
about it being a well, yes? I agree, but then you just said. Like a deep level or a high level? Then you just said the
empty word. And I'm assuming you're referring to well. So I'm asking is it deep or is it empty or
is it a mixture? Empty might have been a misnomer in a way because I don't think a well is an

(03:38):
empty subject. Empty. Nothing's truly empty. But you were actually talking about the well,
were you? You were talking about the word. So the word itself is empty. Yes. So indeed I have used the word well.
Oh my gosh. And I have such an awesome strong voice. You're very kind sir. Yeah. Your voice is strong
enough that you could probably move the microphone slightly down. Oh yeah? Give the camera a little

(04:03):
more love. Sure. Oh yeah. Do we need to go over anything right now? Who cares? We could go over anything you want to. But if you mean like
what the production wise. Okay, in case of fire, there is one exit right there. Okay, good. Also there are
windows everywhere. So good luck breaking them. Okay. Are they tough? They're frosted. Oh, oh, high brow. It's more of like a privacy for

(04:33):
massage clients I think. Again, another connotation of a term like well, high brow. The last time I used the term high brow,
I'm actually describing something that was, what is it, fancy? I would say that's a fair. Like high brow, like you're lifting your eyebrows.
Oh yeah, okay. I get it now. But that's almost a whole visage. Because when you raise your brow. Okay, is high brow then similar to

(05:00):
saying looking down your nose at somebody? I think there's a lapse. So it's someone who sees themselves as well to do. Is that it? Sees
themselves as intelligent maybe? Oh sure. Well if you're high brow and you're looking down your nose at people. But why that? Why that?
Why look down your nose at somebody? I think it's a description of a posture that someone takes when they are feeling superior. Which

(05:27):
actually is interesting because have you ever read a book called The Courage to be Disliked? No. It's a conversation between a
philosopher and a student. Cool. Talking about Joseph Adler, Adlerian psychology. Huh. AKA Adlerian philosophy if it had been in a

(05:51):
different era. Man I should have done my homework. The whole concept of it. I do the homework for people. I read because I read the
books I cannot. I appreciate that greatly. I can't help myself. And Mary was like Michael you should read The Courage to be Disliked. So I was
like Mary did you just recommend a book to me? She was like I did. Which is awesome though. I ordered it that minute. I love it. I love it.

(06:17):
And since I listen to books I listen to it pretty quickly. So let's talk about this. So Adlerian psychology has the core concept of it is
that instead of having top down relationships. Instead of having vertical relationships where you have parent to child. The parent is above.
The child is below. Teacher to student. All of the different relationships, western culture style are all vertical. Boss, employee. Even within

(06:46):
families like husband wife. There's so much verticalness inside there and although the husband might be vertically above the wife in some things and the
wife vertically above in other things. It's still a vertical relationship. And so Adlerian psychology is an attempt to shift all relationships.
Basically says all human problems are interpersonal relationship problems when you break them down.

(07:13):
And the solution is to change a relationship model from vertical top down to horizontal where we're all.
I love that. That's brilliant. Yeah. I mean everyone's bringing something to the table.
Agencies the same. Why was I holding my breath for that whole thing? I ran out of oxygen.

(07:35):
Hey, that was a very I learned something. I was very eloquent. Problem is, oh no, there's a catch.
I knew it. Well, there's always a catch in personal development or enlightenment because everything is too easy.
The catch is that it's too easy. Too easy for to like easy come easy go with.

(07:58):
It must not be that simple. Like for instance, sometimes it can't. OK, go on. Your reality is what you believe it to be.
You look around you and you see a horrible world is because you're creating a horrible world in your consciousness and your subconscious.
Yeah. It's too easy to say just change the stories you're telling if you don't like the environment you're living in.

(08:22):
It's you can't look to anybody else to change it for you. But sometimes it is that easy. It's always that easy. Right.
That's the catch because humans want something complicated. We want Michael. That doesn't seem like much of a catch.
But it is one of the best height hiders. It's a trail. It's a hidden trailhead because it's too easy.

(08:44):
That's how it always was for me. And that's how it is for a lot of people I talk to. Oh, oh, right.
Like for instance, in Adlerian psychology, they say. Don't rebuke. Just don't rebuke.
Never there's never a time where I hear one human should rebuke another human ever.
Parents should never rebuke a child as in a teacher should never rebuke a student as in what's the definition of rebuke that we're using here as in belittling someone's statement anyway suggest that what you're denying agency.

(09:16):
Exactly. And that's where they're getting at with all of this because it's the difference between a self reliant human, which most people are not self reliant, even though we believe we are.
But not only do not rebuke, but also do not praise. No review. Interesting. No praise because both of those foster a vertical relationship. I like this.

(09:37):
This price can only go from a superior to an inferior only. So is there a better a better term for these the word praise here because it's nice to give credit to our credits do.
And if you do, you will create somebody who is not self reliant because they will be out there doing what they do, looking for approval that they got when they were a child.

(10:00):
There are many of these relationships then I'm surmising that have attempted the Adlerian horizontal function.
But even when you get to that point and you start, oh, hey, good job. All of a sudden that access starts to to flip.
And then that person's like, oh, my goodness, the seesaw has gone up on my side. I don't I shouldn't be here.

(10:25):
Should I inflate ego? I mean, that's a heavy, heavy turn or drop into it. But how are we balancing these scales then?
And like, where are the spikes of excitement? This is interesting because what I've just done in my brain talking to you about this wonderful subject is, first of all, I love the idea.

(10:46):
I have never I have a book you should read. I should read this. What was it called again? The courage right now. The courage to be disliked.
Well, even in the name, itchy, pure. I don't remember his name.
It's not. I think that's his first name. It's your coma, but not itchy scratch wits.

(11:07):
No, no. All dogs go to heaven. Is that seriously one of the dogs in all dogs go to heaven?
Yeah. Dom DeLuis voicing. I do. I remember watching. I don't remember anything about that movie.
I haven't seen this as a kid. Oh, but I remember being so sad, like bawling my eyes out.
I don't even remember. I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know what's sad about it. Imagine somebody dies.

(11:29):
That's sweet. Well, there was that. And this is a sidebar at this point.
But all those conversations are sidebar. There was that whole like entourage of movies that weren't Disney, like the Don Bluth stuff, like your troll in Central Park, your rats of NIMH,
and Thumbelina, where they were dark. I read the book Rats of NIMH.

(11:52):
Mrs. Frisbee and the Rats of NIMH. Yeah. And then there's like a sequel. There's like a couple, three of them, maybe.
Whoa. I know there's at least two. I say that's fantastic. Oh, I bet. As a little, you know, as a preteen. Oh, sure. It's dark.
Do you ever revisit? Think Watership Down. Oh, see? Oh, man. I mean, it's more. It's more. It's way less dark. It's way less morbid than that.

(12:20):
But it's just a dark thing. So when's the last time you felt compelled to revisit something that impacted you as a child in the media?
Like the Rats of NIMH, Mrs. Frisbee, which is the book. The movie was The Secret of NIMH, is what they called it.
The Secret of NIMH. Yeah. Secret of NIMH. I don't know. I think I've watched it, but it did not leave an impression on me.

(12:42):
Oh, man. Not even when the owl's head like turned around and all of its neck muscles were.
Bro, I read. I read. Oh, yeah. The book was probably better. Yeah. Never mind. How can you enjoy the movie after the book?
Do you still own the copy? Negative. Oh, man. I do not have that book that I know of. Anyway. So go on.

(13:03):
The original book topic. Yes. Courage to be disliked. What a great sidebar. The courage to be disliked, because I like this concept.
By the way, you did ask me a question there, and I will answer that question. What movies?
I think you specifically said what movies influenced me as a kid. I was raised virtually without media of any type.
Oh, without books. And I don't know much about this. This young. Except the Bible. Sure.

(13:29):
This young formative years now of Michael. Yeah, I'm trying to learn about them.
But when I was I remember I watched the first movie that we went to with my dad after we left the cult that my parents joined the
Jamarbers group was the bear. First movie I saw in the theater. The bear. The bear.

(13:50):
It's we saw it pretty recently and it's actually a really good movie. It's just about a little bear cub.
And the movie starts out with his mom. It's like grizzly bears up in Alaska or something.
I don't know. His mom's like rooting around under a hillside of rocks for honey.
And then there's a rock side and she gets buried. And then the whole movie is this little bear cub on his adventures across the Alaskan wilderness.

(14:15):
Sidebar. What's the first knowing this upbringing? What's the first rated R movie you remember seeing?
And how old were you? I don't I don't have this memory. I don't know.
It could be yesterday. It'd be 10 years ago. No, I've been watching.
Definitely been watching whatever I want since I was like in my 20s. Good.

(14:37):
Like R probably wasn't really watching like anything above R like NC 17 or X at that point. Sure.
Yeah. And a lot of guilt about that kind of stuff. Guilt is a phantom emotion.
You know this. All emotions are indeed. Well, yeah.

(14:57):
It's necessary. The Bear is the first movie we saw in the theater.
But one time I was staying with some there was some there were some people after my dad left.
We were living in Coquille and we would stay at these people's house and I could be mixing up locations.
But I remember they had a movie on cassette that was.

(15:19):
I believe it was an American tale. Oh, so we watched it.
I have probably seven times in a row. Was it American tile five American?
The original Fievel goes west or no, no, no, they didn't have Fievel.
I'm not American. Okay. Yeah. And I still have a soft spot for that movie.
It's a good another one that I had that opportunity with different people was Bambi.

(15:42):
I watched that movie so, so, so, so, so many times and and.
Looking back, I can see that the depth of emotion that stirred in me is because I saw myself in Bambi so fully.
Whoa. Oh, my goodness. My whole life. Wow. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Trying to walk. OK, Bambi. Meeting all these cool woodland creatures. Just lost.

(16:04):
Oh, sure. Lost. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Pretty much it.
And then and then the other thing now that I'm talking about things I identify with.
What's the Holocaust girl and Anne Frank and Frank Boy when I was in my middle teens, 13, 14.
Required reading in many middle school curriculum because I was literally living trapped in houses in inner cities and like only not able to not allowed to listen to music,

(16:35):
not allowed to read anything but the Bible. So I identified with that.
Yeah, I think I think those are pretty much that's all that comes to mind for movies that I identified with that growing up.
That's a good set, man. That's a good set.
So digression, though. Oh, and then and then the Google's the Google song.

(17:01):
I give up forever to touch you. Oh, yeah.
But the data. No, no, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. I had the wrong song. Do do do do do.
Oh, it's the one where it's just basically like the Google.
All the Google. Yes. The Google.
But it's the song about. Oh, I know. No, no, no.

(17:22):
It's not that one. I love the Google, though.
It's letters that you never meant to send lost and blown away.
Oh, this one's not coming to memory, but I like it.
You grew up way too fast, and now there's nothing to believe.

(17:42):
A reruns all become our history.
Oh, profound tired song keeps playing on a tired radio.
And I won't tell no one your name.
Yeah, it's all about how basically the every all of your intentions are blowing in the wind.

(18:03):
And you you didn't you aren't who nothing is happening the way you thought it would.
And but I won't tell anyone your name like I've like I've got you.
Like, I'm I don't know. It just it gave me so much such a sense of like bittersweet peace.
So this idea of not sharing the name apparently, that's the name of the song.

(18:23):
Oh, name. Yeah.
Anonimity. I don't know.
It just it just gave me the feeling of support of like.
Of it just like, you know what, you know what the feeling is looking back.
It's the feeling of me supporting myself. Sure.
You interpret it in a way that baby version that edified you in a way.

(18:47):
Yes. Which it was it was a comfort.
Absolutely. And that's actually what's really cool about some of those old songs and old movies.
And didn't mean to make this turn out to be like the media version of emotion art.
Welcome to the media version of emotion. They're old friends.
Old friends, these old things that.

(19:10):
And yeah, it sometimes seems silly when you when you watch the next time, if ever, you watch American
Tale, you're just going to be like. Oh, man.
Yeah, I can see why I like this as a kid, of course.
But you probably won't be like engrossed in it like, you know, I might be engrossed in the memory of the emotions.
Was Tiger in that one? The orange cat?

(19:33):
Probably. Oh, no.
Oh, I was going to. Oh, I was going to say I was going to say,
shit, I just freaking drew a freaking blank.
It's all right, man. Should I draw one, too?
No, I was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Blank check, please. Let's do it.
Blank. You want to trade blank checks as in.

(19:55):
Signed pay to the order of.
Oh, man. Amount? Question mark.
Blank check. Ooh, fun game.
I'll have to dig out my checks.
Yeah, same. They're in a little blue Oregon state.
It's all cracked old plastic.
Yeah, it's all that's cracked. Yeah.
And the checks are zero, zero, one.

(20:16):
And our kids are like zero, zero, two. What is that?
And if you ever wrote one, you like tried to flip to one
that was actually like one or zero, one, zero.
Just like. Like, oh, yeah, this is definitely not the first check I've written.
Dad, are you a caveman?
Yeah, these are things I hear because you haven't.
Why are you here?

(20:37):
What if I live here?
We've gone for work.
Wait, tie this all together. One more story. OK.
Because you just got me reminiscing. Good. I love it.
And so I wanted to say the Google Dahl's reminiscing.
Yeah, let's get this this Google Dahl's the Google Dahl's.
The reason that I have the affinity with the Google Dahl's is because

(20:59):
the one thing I was allowed to do is I was allowed to listen to a band
called the Vegas, which was a man. You're talking some deep cuts.
The Vegas is a.
Orthodox Jewish singing Hebrew
from the Bible, that's like they, you know, and it's but it's but it's klezmer.
You know, it's it's that kind of European, you know,

(21:20):
accordion and, you know, bouncing music and stuff.
But it's the Bible in Hebrew.
And that appealed to the sensibilities of the cult I was in.
So I was allowed to listen to those cassette tapes on a Walkman.
Was it yellow?
And if you peel the tape back
when you are buried inside of your sleeping bag late at night,

(21:42):
you can switch it from play to FM.
Radio.
And when you're in Seattle, you can go to whatever the end of the dial is.
That's the alternative station back in the 90s.
The first one that came on first one that's that's what I always looked for
was alternative and the Google Dahl's were on there and what a porno for pyros.

(22:05):
Jane's addiction, you know, smashing pumpkins, all that stuff.
That's the and I'm like inside because I mean, we're 30 people in the house.
I'm like, have a little spot on the floor.
And I'm like, in there with my little headphones on playing my debauchery tape
like a saintly little just just a.

(22:26):
Model little just being overcome, little cult member,
just being overcome with emotion tests, just you would have seen through my nerves
because you would have been getting away with something.
You would have been just like overjoyed with being able to listen to this new media.

(22:47):
The way the sounds go together and you had your little grabs inside
your little room, you had your little room and these headphones.
You know, listening to Seattle FM radio.
I think it felt like a room.
It just felt like it felt like it felt like open space.
It felt like I stepped out of the room.
Ah, yeah. Yeah.
So all this from Joseph Adler,

(23:11):
which is my new favorite book at the moment.
This is the one.
And it's crazy because it's putting language to all of the things
that I've been just exploring from my gut.
Emotion, deep emotion.
It's actually a lovely concept.
And I have I have listened to a few.
I don't listen to podcasts very often.
Yeah, I do. Like the usual suspects that Nicole and I listen to

(23:35):
when we drive around, like the stuff you should know.
I've taken that one.
I listen to a couple of yours.
And by the way.
Oh, congratulations.
This is great. You've done something amazing here.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
It's just so fun.
Good. But I love that.
Thank you. Yeah, of course.

(23:56):
But this and I love that I'm sitting here doing it with you.
Oh, man, I'm so honored.
You're so funny. I really feel like I'm going to praise you
because I'm better than you.
I didn't know. Sorry.
Hey, your turn.
No, no, that's funny.
Sidebar, because now you're using these functions of like,
I'm totally going to compliment you later.

(24:18):
But don't don't you're going to hate it.
Don't allow yourself to be derailed.
Oh, I'm just going to deflect.
Oh, I'm derailed. We're already in the sidebar.
Anyway, some of the themes that I listened to.
Oh, I was going to know. I'm just kidding.
Was, oh, sidebar away, my friend.
Just being a brat.
I love being a brat.
You know, brats fun sidebar.

(24:38):
When's the last time you were a brat before that?
Well, the moment before it.
There's a little part inside me that's a brat all the time.
It's like wanting to.
Wanting to just pull that reaction out.
Hell, yeah.
Dude, I'm getting there. I'm getting there.
I don't know what's all let's define brat.
Well, I mean, we could spend the rest of all time trying to define the words out.

(24:59):
You are. Guess what, my friend, you hit on a really deep topic earlier
about the empty word.
Yes, the word empty.
Because the truth is that, well, the word wow.
Well, wow. Well, well, well.
It is an empty word.
It is a collection of sound vibrations that actually don't mean anything.

(25:20):
Right. That we have used to delineate.
The only reason it means something.
A feeling or a term over time, because we've assigned value to it
as those connotations.
The only reason that collection of sounds means something to you
is because you have an archetype, a collection of feelings.
Right. Built over your entire life.
Every emotion you've had about that particular word

(25:43):
makes the archetype of what it means to you.
And since your life's different than mine, I can't possibly have the same archetype.
Indeed. And so every single word is made up.
Absolutely. Different to me than to you.
And it's lovely because the swings of these emotional ties.
Just get to play.
Are different.
The connotation is different.
Yes. It's really fun when you use word that.

(26:07):
Someone might have a different connotation for.
That's every single word you use.
Yeah, I guess so.
So so should we start like so.
So so.
So it's just a collection of syllables.
It means nothing. So.
Now, are you saying so dot dot dot?
I'm not. I'm just saying so.

(26:27):
So so so so so so so.
Should we use another phonetic term for the word so?
Can we challenge ourselves for the carbuncle carbuncle?
So carbuncle spatula.
It's going to be hard because so is a single syllable.
Tuberculosis.

(26:48):
Tuberculosis.
No, no, I'm just quoting that bus song.
What bus song?
You haven't heard the bus song?
Does it talk about tuberculosis?
Oh, I see you're waiting for the bus.
Well, yes, I'm waiting for the bus.
Have you noticed that lady over there?
Yes, I have.
Have you noticed that lady over there?

(27:10):
Have you noticed her hair?
What? Yes, I have noticed her hair.
What would you call that hairstyle?
Well, I guess maybe a bouffant bouffant.
Could you say it's a bulbous bouffant?
Well, yes, bulbous bouffant.
Blubber macadamia gazebo. Carbuncle.

(27:33):
I added that one. Oh, that's a good one.
Where did you pull that one?
This is the episode where I like I'm singing a lot.
What the hell is going on?
I don't know, man. I dig it, though.
We're definitely listening to the bus song because it's so hilarious.
Absolutely. It kind of reminds me of like Sesame Street.
Like I'm imagining I'm watching a Sesame Street thing,
but it's just it's just it's just playing with fun words.

(27:53):
So fun. So it's a bus stop.
It's just a little it's just a dialogue between some strangers.
That's so funny. And they start singing.
Strangers don't really talk anymore.
Like when I'm around, they do.
The next time I'm at the bus stop, I'm going to walk up to the person.
Whether or not there's a lady over there or any person.

(28:14):
Actually, it works better when there is a person we're talking about a little bit.
Otherwise, the person, the stranger will just be.
Carl, it doesn't matter what you say.
People love when you break their bubble.
Oh, I dig it. They are so uncomfortable.
The squares since 1988.
No, it's awesome. But at the end of the day.

(28:34):
They walk away taller with like this little bit of joy.
So like trickling off their skin.
I can't miss. It's incredible.
But there are there are times because all.
Is this what being a brat is, is just her apps, a listening experience
with someone with the hopes that later on when they're sitting at their living room

(28:55):
and they go, oh, babe, you know what?
Someone said the strangest thing to me today.
I feel happy to be alive.
I just can't believe anybody would say that.
I feel happy to be alive.
When I get that could be it.
It was just that one moment that was tethered to the future from a present.

(29:16):
And maybe one day when they're reaching in the refrigerator and it makes them laugh,
it's all worth it.
Carl, time's not real. Time isn't real.
Let's hash this one out.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We are way too far afield.
We were talking about Adler. We were talking about Adler.
And so we have since then, it's been trailhead after trailhead.
So back to Adler, if there's any there because there is one more thing

(29:39):
to say about it from me and I think you were talking.
OK, well, if we digress, we were talking about making
information or these emotional relationships flat.
Yeah, horizontal.
Horizontal. And people always say that.
Does flat have a negative connotation?

(29:59):
It does. And that it but it's the connotation that everyone's mind goes to
because Western culture says that if it's not a top down, that this is nihilism.
Adlerian psychology feels like nihilism.
Because it's like, oh, well, then I guess nothing matters.
And it's like, what has happened to you in your life that you jumped from?

(30:20):
I want to be on equal footing with every single person that I interact
with every day of my life to I don't give a fuck about anyone around me,
because that's what the Western mind hears.
I don't care.
Well, it's like it's I try not to say those words.
Well, it's confusing dispassion with not caring.
I mean, you can go around without carrying the weight.

(30:44):
Of a passion or a need to do something emotionally that you might not want to.
Yes.
I'm dispassionate about many things.
In fact, in my opinion, when you think of the spectrum of love and hate,
and there's so much energy that it takes to feel love or hate,

(31:07):
but isn't really what you're trying to attempt to do when you hate something
is to just not feel it at all.
And isn't that absolute zero, net zero dispassion?
But even that has a negative connotation.
I don't know.
To use dispassion.
I don't know that I'm following your emotions with mine,
but what I'm hearing you say is that is that hate and love are on opposite sides of a spectrum.

(31:37):
And I believe that hate and love are not only on the same side of the spectrum.
I believe they're basically conjoined twins.
Sure.
They're almost exactly the same thing.
And the opposite of either hate or love is apathy.
Indeed.
And that is zero.
I think so your dispassion is apathy.
Apathy.

(31:58):
Aha.
Nihilism.
I am not adverse to at all this chart in which love and hate are conjoined twins.
I mean, they just are.
And how quickly can love turn into hate when jilted?
Well, in a way, the spectrum is because they're conjoined in the way.
I use the term spectrum because the amount of energy to do one is the same amount of energy to do the other.

(32:26):
And everything's a spectrum of light, literally.
Yeah, we need to get our visuals down.
We went from a vertical thing, we went to our horizontal,
and now we're back in picturing these emotions as we're trying to be evocative and describe them side by side, which is impossible.

(32:49):
Everything's emotion.
It's all in the same.
It's impossible to describe anything.
Same thing.
I can dig that.
Yeah, sort of.
Yes.
Yes.
Adlery.
The second Adler book because.
There's a second?
It gets better, my friend.
So it's like the fible goes west of the American tale.
The student returns.
Oh, no.

(33:10):
To challenge the philosopher.
To challenge.
Because the story is written, the conversation is written between, as if between a philosopher in his study and a youth who has just entered the education field.
So he's a teacher.

(33:31):
He gets all up, like excited.
The first conversation happens over like several visits.
And over time, the youth is like, he's a complete cynic critic.
And he's like challenging everything.
And he's, you know, pompous youth, whatever.
And the philosopher, it's, you know, they do a good job with it, but you can tell that it's what they're trying to do.

(33:53):
It's like the patient Adlerian who nothing can flap.
And then this impetuous youth that just is full of spit and vinegar.
And then he comes to the end of it and he's just like, I am going to take this to my classroom and I am going to change the world, starting with my classroom.
And he goes off all idealized.
And then the second book is The Courage to Be Happy.

(34:15):
Whoa.
So The Courage to Be Disliked.
The Courage to Be Happy.
Which I still would like to even sidebar and digress to get back to just that idea of the courage it takes not be liked.
Like where's this need that everyone needs to please everybody and their fathers?

(34:40):
That's a fallacy that we should have gotten rid of in high school.
It's what comes of a rebuke and praise upbringing.
What? Yes, sir.
Okay. That's the Adlerian concept. Courage to be happy now. Courage to be happy.
This brand new fledgling educator returns one last time.

(35:03):
And he's like, this is the last time I'm going to visit you.
And I'm here to tell you that you ruined my life.
You ruined his life. You're peddling a bunch of trash.
And I'm going to tear your arguments apart and you are going to apologize to me before the end of this.
Because again, he's this impetuous youth that has to be the nemesis for the wise.

(35:29):
Is there a timeline of age difference here?
Yeah, the philosopher is obviously an older guy and the youth is obviously young.
I'd say probably mid-20s to late 40s is the spread.
Anyway, it's just my imagination. Sure.
So then the whole second book is one conversation where the youth is trying to tear it down.

(35:54):
And he's saying, how can this work? This is what actually happened in my classroom.
Not using rebuke. I've lost control of everything.
And he just brings it all, just tries to nail him on every single one of the arguments.
And they just progress through the whole thing. And of course, it's set up.
It's written from the perspective of trying to, like, I don't know, can you truly straw man your own argument?

(36:17):
Can you truly straw man your own argument? I don't know.
But they do a decent job of the play acting.
And by the end of it, it's basically the courage to be disliked is also the courage to be happy.
Sure. So once again, we have these two different concepts that are intertwined.
Very closely again. Yeah, I can imagine if one had this perpetual need to be like, that would be exhausting.

(36:51):
We all do. Yeah. To varying degrees. I'm paid to do it for my job.
It's a spectrum. Well, isn't that nice? You get paid to try to make people like you for your job.
I'm not saying you get paid a lot. I'm saying I'm a doctor, by the way.

(37:14):
Hold on. I have a question. OK. Do you enjoy what you do?
Yeah, it's hard. It's tough, but I enjoy it. And it's what I can't do.
I hear you saying there are parts of it that you enjoy. Oh, sure.
OK. Absolutely. What do you first of all? Hello, Carl.
Oh, hey, Michael. Man, it's so I love what you've done with this place. Great.

(37:37):
It's so great to sit here with you. I'm so happy to be a part.
Thank you so much for inviting me. Thanks for coming. Thank you for like taking your time to come.
I really appreciate a little backstory. I have always kind of been the sidelines of the Avery going on goings on.
Actually, I remember when I first moved to Philomath and actually started working at my current place of work.

(38:02):
Where do you work? Dirt Road. Dirt Road Brewing in Philomath, Oregon.
I vividly remember. The only people that listen to this are people like basically in Corvallis and Philomath and Portland.
They're going to dig it. Well, hey, friends, I want to be like, hey, I mean, we got nothing to hide at Dirt Road.
So I'm a fresh Oregon face. This is about five years ago. And welcome to Oregon. Thank you.

(38:25):
Thank you so much. I'm a Phil Billy at heart, but I've been all over the place.
And I remember you and yours walked in and you were all in costume. Yes, probably. Yeah.
And it was awesome. Usually. And at the moment, I didn't have any backstory yet.
I didn't know about you and Ange and Bonnie and the kids. I was like, oh, this is it.

(38:48):
This is the Oregon thing. People are dressed up. They're being weird. I love it.
How long had you been in in country? Dude, by the time I met you, I was I'd only been here in a month.
No, you your family is one of the first people that I served at dirt.
And I remember a couple of days later, you folks came in not in costume.

(39:13):
And I remember you sat down at Bar Nine, which is the stool at the end of the counter bar nine.
And you looked at me and you're like, like, hey, how are you doing?
And how did you get roped in all of this? Like all of this being working at Dirt Road? I guess.

(39:34):
Yeah, that's that's essentially how I met you folks.
And since then, I've been present mildly in some parties.
But I have always looked at what you folks have accomplished with an admiration and an impression and kind of.
And about time that there's a family of people who are doing something like this, not podcasts.

(40:01):
Your camera is right here. Oh, not. You can look at my camera if you want.
Oh, that's creepy. I'm going to have to cut that part out. Cut it all out, man.
Creepy. I don't like creepy on here. You don't want you don't want creepy.
OK, but I want to know what you're talking about. What is the it is about time?
What is the it about the about time that there was a family that wasn't this.

(40:27):
Dad, mom, kids, religion, construct live here in this house.
It was an actual attempt and getting of.
Emotion and hopefully a betterment of life.

(40:48):
And I always thought there was something a little strange, not saying that all the people who have unmixed families still up here.
I'm not good on camera, guys. This is my first.
Oh, right. This is the dress for recording. Yeah.
So you're a first. Thank you. And by the way, you're probably going to be episode 24 if I'm guessing 24.

(41:10):
So what do you want to talk about? You. Oh, man.
All right. No, that was a really good start.
I was totally starting off completely on seriously and then you took it to a serious place and that's fantastic.
Good job. I love you guys.
That's usually my job. I love you guys. I'm just a guy you see every time.
Sometimes when you go into philomath, but I admire you and your family.

(41:31):
And I'm just happy and proud that I get to be a part of you guys, you guys life during things like these.
See, I'm learning. Not looking at this camera yet.
And parties, et cetera. I'm just seeing you guys out. Parties.
I think you may be the most joyful person working at a brew pub.
Is that a is there a road of what it is a classified a brew pub? It's a brew pub.

(41:53):
Yes. I just want to say I cannot wait.
So so now that it's expanded to the other side and you have a space for live fucking music.
Dude, we have been rocking and rolling. I'm guessing this.
Do you have any stand up like like stand up comedy? No, we were already talking about it because it's a venue.
It's an event space. I have anything there that do you think that Chuck would let a 15 year old do rock some stand up comedy?

(42:23):
Absolutely. You think so? Charlie Twain.
I think we should just set up a mic in our speaker system. Would you do it and just do it? Would you emcee that shit?
Yeah. Not like it'd be. No, no, no, no, no.
I'm just saying I'm just I'm just thinking of how comfortable that would be for Charlie because you, my friend,
are somebody who puts people at their ease in an intense way.

(42:44):
No, that's why you're so good at your job is because it's like have you watched the movie?
I have a goes west. Jim and Andy. Jim and Andy with Jim Carrey.
It's a it's the documentary about the making of Man on the Moon.
Yeah, it was wonderful. Andrew. Yeah. Andy Kaufman movie.
OK, and Jim and Andy, Jim says that there came this point when he was this young actor where he was like super depressed and like couldn't figure anything out.

(43:13):
And then he's just like, what do they want? And then he realized they just want to feel.
What how did he put it unencumbered? They want to feel they want to feel un.
Like there's the audience, the audience, the audience. He's like, what do they want? They want to feel free.
They want to feel free from all the restrictions and all the.

(43:34):
And so he just became that character where it's just like he thumbs his nose at everything and just was himself.
Like, is great. Devil may care. Yeah. And that's how you make people feel.
You make people feel free even when you're having like the last time we were in there, you were like on a like your second day, a very little sleep, you know, whatever.
You were exhausted and you were. Dancing around to the kitchen, doing whatever, singing like shows, something like whatever.

(44:03):
And you're just like, that's how you deal with tiredness, because guess what? Everyone feels tired all the time.
Right. What people want is to see somebody that's unaffected by the hard, by the drudgery that is free.
Well, let's keep a little optimism here, Michael. That feels like pure optimism.
Well, it was pure optimism. And yeah, I mean, so. All right.

(44:27):
So to digress to saying, well, yeah, I love my job. It's a livelihood.
I get to interact with people. If there's any negative connotation regarding it, it's just that there there's some plaque build up in the service industry that just happens in your head for the course of decades.

(44:49):
Yes, which is everybody's job. Yes. And I started out as a server.
Oh, you get it. The same as what you do, but it's just like the service industry is demanding.
Like it sucks the life out of you because you are energetically you're interfacing with strangers all day long and you have to be open to their energy to a certain degree.

(45:10):
And that's exhausting. And that does take a lot of energy and it's so it does.
It does. And there's yeah, there's there's a really simple trick that actually makes that really easy.
You can imagine that you have an aura around your body, an energy aura that's like six inches out from your body.
Sure. Or a foot out. Doesn't matter. Yeah, doesn't matter.

(45:34):
Make it as big as you want it. Make it as small as it can be on your skin.
Now make it slick. Oh, yeah. Make it so that all of this energy coming from every person around you slides right off.
Well, you don't have to store energy. I mean, you have to interact with it at a certain point and let those electrons and valence actually interact or it's unauthentic.

(45:59):
But I get it. It's you can still interact with it. It's like it no longer.
It's the bubble of the aura is kind of. And when you're slick, you interact with people's energies on your terms,
because every single one of those customers, they want to force you to interact on their terms.
And that that energetically no one knows that they're doing it. It's all subconscious unless you're an energy worker.

(46:21):
Then you can see it. An energy worker. Correct.
Somebody who believes in and works with energy. Oh, because it's just a practice.
It's it's like any of your senses. You practice, you start practicing, you start using it like magic is a real thing.
And you can really actually look at the world around you and see this underlying structure.

(46:43):
Absolutely. And that's actually one of the benefits of working in the service industry and interacting with hundreds of people a day is because your your your your mind
and your heart and your soul are gathering all this data on how to interact with people, no matter where they are in their life or day or week,
to the point where you get a sense for it. Sometimes someone will walk in, they'll be a complete stranger.

(47:08):
And I'll already know exactly what they need just by body language, maybe voice, call it whatever you want.
The energy workers will call it right intuition, clairvoyance, whatever it does take practice.
Yes, indeed. In fact, it's it's actually it's gotten to a fun party trick where I've been able to time when I think to go orders are arriving

(47:31):
and let the food runners know that they should be out here at this point.
And sure enough, someone walks in right away and it's their grub. It's fun party trick for the kids.
But they'll figure it out one day. And there's a lot of sixth sense stuff, you know, you just you've done it so long that you just know you just know.
But where does that come from? Subconscious knowledge, something.

(47:56):
Yeah, you know, that's a good point. Good point, because I guess there is a device, a part of our perception that is inherently just a person observer.
It's a stranger observer. It feels how you feel.
And you're able to interpret someone's needs and wants in the moment just by reaching that aura out past that are you able to inches or a foot?

(48:20):
Are you able to access that awareness inside you that is a people observer?
I think so. Are you able to look through that part of yourself at yourself?
Are you able to observe the you that is a people?
I'm not. I can't say so. OK, can't say so.

(48:44):
I feel like I should be able to.
And maybe I just need to wrap my head around the question a little bit more, Michael, but not as well.
Actually, it's a good good question is regarding a very strong disassociative will violently put you in that place.
Whoa, or like ketamine or psilocybin, sure, a strong disassociative because it takes you outside of yourself.

(49:10):
You see yourself as one with everything.
Then you can basically look down, look at yourself from the outside, totally change everything.
But, oh, sure. Well, I do that with super temporary with just an everyday dream and meditation dreams and meditation, because dreams.
I mean, what makes dreams happen?
Like I've heard the theory that it's basically a DMT feed.
It has to be, I mean, or the theory that dreams is just alternate.

(49:35):
How weird do you want to get about dreams, man?
Oh, dude, check this out.
Did you did you sleepwalk as a kid?
I don't think so. I've I have a couple of sleepwalkers, but I found that swear to coffee.
You haven't tried. Swear to coffee brand.

(49:58):
It's easy to make nice. You brew a cup of coffee in the morning time.
You pour your coffee in your mug, put some creamer in it, and you drink it.
Two thirds of it. Then you set it down because you're working on a project.
Right. And you forget about it.
And at about two thirty or three in the afternoon, you find two thirds or one third of a cup of coffee and you say, OK, swear to day.

(50:19):
And you take a big long sip and it feels what looks strangely refreshing.
Absolutely. It's the perfect.
And then you know that you're drinking swear to coffee.
Hopefully it wasn't a cool place. Good to the last drop.
So when I was younger, I would sleepwalk and I would have a reoccurring dream every time that I slept the walk to the point where I knew I was sleepwalking when I was having this reoccurring dream.

(50:49):
Are you are you you would be sleepwalking and know you were sleepwalking?
Right. And at a young age, I developed the ability.
I split it up into three parts.
You have your avatar and your dream that is your body.
You have your sleeping body and then you have your eye in the sky that's looking at all of it.
How this all happened was my mom told me she was like, you know, every time you sleepwalk, you're crying.

(51:14):
So what horror to my mother who is watching her child walk around and to the advice of her doctor, don't wake him up. Just let him roam around and ball, I guess.
But when she told me that, I guess I had another attachment onto a physical engagement of my body while I was sleeping.
Anyway, I got to the point where I could identify I was sleeping. Not only that, but I could temper down my adrenaline of my actual sleeping body to stay in dreams longer.

(51:51):
And I was watching all this. So I had kind of a trinity of, you know, identities that were all just examining this whole amalgam of a video at the time.
As I got older, a lot of different lucid dreams and whatnot.
Really neat, though, as I got older and started just like surfing the web about stuff, it started to conceptualize things that I already knew.

(52:17):
I just never put words into it, which actually digress earlier in our conversation, the whole idea of thinking something.
But then a teacher comes along and helps you actually conceptualize it.
Are you saying that you learned in your dreams in your lives?
Absolutely.
This is incredible. OK. And it just I mean, it just plays to everything that I believe to be true about the world.
Oh, cool. OK.

(52:38):
Convenient.
So what's your earliest memory that you can remember?
Oh, man. Do you know those little tight castles?
It was like little tights, plastic castles with like the fake fireplace, the picture of a fireplace.
I mean, that rings a bell. Yes.
They were big.

(52:59):
They were. Yeah.
I didn't really grow up with toys either, but I can read that rings a bell.
I remember that something like that.
Oh, man. I'm sure you drove by one at some point in your life.
I think I drove over one once.
Oh, that's awesome.
Probably.
Anyway, little tight castle.
Little tight castle in the basement of our house in Chicago.
My brothers and I crawling because we put a plank of wood from the top of it to whatever bundle of nonsense that we had stored down there.

(53:27):
And we were crawling over the top of this plank from a little tight castle onto this bundle of whatever old artificial Christmas tree.
I don't know what it was.
That seems like my first memory.
You were born in Chicago.
Yeah, me too.

(53:48):
No way.
I was.
Dude.
Blue Island. High five.
Blue Island.
Then my parents moved, left Chicago and I was probably less than a year old.
See, I've been back.
Many of your listeners might know this history of Michael, but I do not really.
Yeah.

(54:09):
So real quick timeline from Chicago to now.
What do you got?
What?
No, there is none.
I've got I've got just it's just just a trail of weird carnage.
Fantastic trail of weird carnage.
Yeah.
New band name.
I call it.

(54:30):
That is a good band.
We're trail of weird carnage.
No base.
So basically cult like traveling Christian cult.
Tell me about this.
Amish.
Should I just get like a quick rundown of this?
Because we've never actually talked about this.
Are you deflecting because I was just trying to dive into your childhood?
No, dude.
Let's get to both of them.
OK, I'm just so curious and I do not know about this traveling Christian cult.

(54:53):
OK, I've heard so much about it.
Carl, you have questions.
I'm going to do my best to answer them.
Excellent.
The cult was a spin.
What came out of the 70s Jesus movement?
Which came out of the 70s rebel against the government movement.
Whatever.

(55:14):
It was led by a guy named Jim Roberts, who was an ex Marine drill sergeant.
From what I understand, I'm just I'm repeating things I've always heard.
I don't know any of this firsthand.
Sure.
I do know the man well.
I spent a lot.
I spent years of my life with him, but he was a extremely private authoritarian tall
mountain man figure.

(55:35):
And he had this this puristic vision of that life is supposed to be lived as it is described
in the Book of Acts.
So it's like basically taking the New Testament and making it literal.
And just like in every possible way you can.
If what would a little child understand from this and trying to oversimplify how you look

(56:00):
at it.
I mean, it was valuable training in things like faith and trust.
The words of Jesus are incredible and powerful, and it's all about.
I mean, he says things like, Consider the lilies of the field.
Are they so not?
Neither do they reap.
And yet even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

(56:22):
And it's just beautiful.
That is very poetic and very beautiful.
I like that a lot indeed.
But when you take all of that and the writings of all the apostles and the and the Revelation
Apocryphal, you know, what do they call that?
Yeah, not Apocryphal.
I'm sorry.
That's the wrong word.
Apocryphal is a fun word.
What's the word for like like post apocalyptic writings like End Times?

(56:46):
I don't remember your revelations.
Yeah, sure.
There's a name for it.
Apocalyptic.
Yeah, no, that's what you write.
I think there's a word I'm looking for, but it's an empty word.
So I'm going to stop looking.
OK, so.
So basically they just take off traveling.
And actually, what episode 10 revival traveling?

(57:08):
No, just traveling like hitchhiking, living like by twos and threes, because that's how
that that's how they did it in acts.
They would travel by twos and threes to another city, and then they would preach the gospel
and they would have all things in common and live by faith and, you know, all these things.
So, you know, and every group picks out the verses that are going to be like kind of the
the banner verses and stuff like that, you know.

(57:29):
But so no attachment to society of in the world, but not of the world.
No involvement politically, no involvement, you know, just just renounce friends and family,
renounce past life, the acceptance of the of the epic battle between good and evil.
You know, God against Satan and we are in the middle between we are the pawns.

(57:53):
We are the soldiers. We are the you know.
And but then outside of us is this whole heavenly war that's waging and everything we do in this world
basically has to suck so that you can earn.
I'm way oversimplifying it to the point of just making it different.
But it's just like you sacrifice in this life so that you can reap the eternal reward reward of presence with God.

(58:15):
Right. With God and not not burn in hell forever.
So anyway, and I did that off and on.
My dad left and took us and then, you know, till I was 15, then I joined the Amish did that for four years.
And then I left that and went to India as a high work.
I worked on the coast building houses for a little while, got a driver's license when I was 19 because you know,
horse and buggy, you don't need a driver's license. Right.

(58:37):
And that's what I know a lot.
Oh, boy, that just brings back a lot of memories.
But and, you know, I do I was, you know, you've seen the pictures of the Amish boy with the straw hat out in the field with like 12 horses in front of him and stuff.
I did that. Like, that's that's that's how I spent my early teen years.
Just freaking I can't even believe it sometimes when I think about it.

(58:58):
But at the time, it just seemed like this is what life is.
What do you do? You're in a cult and then you join the Amish.
And these guys are different and fun.
This is fun and new and oh, I'm I'm editing my mom's episode right now.
And oh, right on. Yeah.
And that's a project and it's a labor of love.
Definitely such an incredible, incredible thing.

(59:20):
But she talks about how because she went with me, left the group with me to join the Amish sort of not really.
But physically, that's what happened.
And she was just like, yeah, and they were like so immodest and like Amish people, you know.
And to her, they were just just living on the edge of sin, you know, just just throwing their lives away.

(59:41):
And because where she had just come from and had been for like, what, 14 years or something, was so over the top.
Of denying the flesh and, you know.
Seriously, like, crucify your flesh and like those that was the verbiage that I was raised with.

(01:00:04):
Take up the cross and follow Jesus, you know.
They just they just did it in a more authentic, more real way.
So, I mean, to me, like that, obviously, because I'm in I'm a passionate, I'm a passionate chameleon.
So it's just like, I mean, if I'm going to be following the Bible, I want to be following actually what literally black and white says.

(01:00:28):
So it appealed to me in that way.
Good point.
And that was always a struggle.
My whole Christian life was just being like, how do I correlate all of these things that just don't make sense?
And anyway, it has to be something wrong with my understanding.
And when you believe that, life is hard.
But yeah, so then I went to India a few times, was there for nine months and taught school, worked in an orphanage.

(01:00:54):
Cool.
Yeah.
I had pre KG my class.
My youngest student was two and a half.
What?
Two and a half.
My oldest students were four.
Oh, how old were you then?
One night, 20.
Whoa, young.
Yeah.

(01:01:15):
It was, I mean, and that's what I did.
Just just like I sold everything I had.
And and there was a couple of people that sent me a little bit of money monthly just so I could survive.
And so I spent my, you know, I don't know, I was an idealistic person and I guess I still am.
Nothing's changed.
Yeah.
But then I left that got engaged to my first girlfriend ever.

(01:01:41):
And anything, anything, anything, nice.
One time we sort of held hands for like a few seconds.
Did I say girlfriend?
I'm sorry.
I courted.
I got into a courtship.
OK.

(01:02:02):
Yes.
Oh, oh, no, nothing.
Nothing, nothing. That was my first experience with with any sort of a romantic involvement.
So would you say the equivalent to you holding those hands kind of for a number of seconds?
It wasn't really a whole hand.
It was like we had agreed on something and shook hands like that was the extent of the.

(01:02:25):
But on the other hand, on the other hand, she was like she she lived on a ranch and had horses and we would go like of a Sunday.
We would just go trail riding way back in the woods and we would sit in the glade and just talk for hours.
And we would we would play music, record together and play worship together.
And and I mean, it was such a beautiful time.

(01:02:48):
But but I mean, it was a it was a biblical court.
Like it was a godly courtship.
And, you know, whatever.
And I didn't know any like to me, it's just this is just what you do.
Like, you know, and I saw myself as a horrible broken.
Like like like somebody with an evil nature that had to constantly subduing his flesh.
So like I literally because, you know, I'm I'm a bachelor, you know, off and on, depending on where I'm living.

(01:03:15):
I go to a laundromat to do my laundry and I usually take my guitar or something to, you know, play some some good Jesus tunes and stuff mess around.
And in the summertime, you see the girls in the bikinis and they're walking around and doing whatever.
And I would not look at them.
I wouldn't look.
I would feel an overwhelming urge to look, but I wouldn't.

(01:03:40):
It was just like I I knew that it was a line I had to keep because I had to hold my purity.
I had to maintain my lofty position above everyone else.
Like, that's really what it comes down to looking back.
But it was hilarious because in looking back, I can remember that I would get a lot of negative negative reactions from that because girls are used to girls in bikinis.

(01:04:02):
Oh, sure. As much as they may act like.
Yeah, they're weird.
They're used to getting looked at.
And I mean, what human doesn't want to be like appreciated.
And so it's like it's like we're all torn compliments, though, because we're still trying to maintain a delirium because we're here because we want it.
But we also don't feel safe.
So anyway, so then three weeks before the wedding got called off.

(01:04:29):
Whoa. Yeah, yeah.
That's a big mess.
What a big mess took me a long time to get over that.
How do you feel about that?
Yeah, I had no I had no defense.
I had no practice.
I had no example.
I knew nothing.
It was just it was just got my heart ripped out and no idea.
So I immediately rebounded and definitely a lot more physical within that in that situation.

(01:04:55):
That was my kind of first experience with kissing and messing around a little bit and stuff and going a little too far.
And then having like the authority, the spiritual authorities in my life, the kind of leaders in my life be like, well, son.
You deflowered her.
So now you have to marry her.

(01:05:16):
And it was a huge stink.
And it was just chaos.
And I'm sitting there with my heart just bleeding out over my clothes.
And and my whole community is looking at me like this awful person, because what I realized finally when I started, my head started to clear is that I'm not in love with this person.
Like this, it's called a rebound for a reason, and I had no idea about anything, but it was just became too much.

(01:05:43):
So I just fucking picked up and moved to Montana, Kalispell, Montana.
Hell yeah, Kalispell.
And I and my previous fiance had been in like going like she had been in emergency medicine and stuff like it was super.
She was super passionate about it.
So I that's where I that's where that the fascination for that was born in me.

(01:06:05):
So then I went to Kalispell, I was taking, you know, paying out of state tuition for to get my paramedic license basically.
And I was working at a pizza place and working at a natural grocery store stock and shelves and just just doing whatever I could and skipping meals.
And I was renting this little room in a in a little trailer just out kind of just out in the middle of nowhere.

(01:06:26):
And there was a there was a couple renting the room next to me and then there was a couple renting the pullout couch in the living room.
And the lady that owned it was just like this fantastic bike.
Just the how do I say this?
What I'm feeling is the white trash stereotype like hand rolled her cigarettes docked like this.

(01:06:48):
She just had that smokers voice.
And she was she just like had neon dragons inside the trailer and like big beer signs and just like and the people like like the people renting the room next to me.
The guy was probably one hundred and twenty pounds at most.
He was a very short guy and he just looked like in hindsight I was I was super naive back then.

(01:07:10):
But in hindsight, I would say he was doing math or something like I mean, he was he just it just was too it just looked too much like it.
And his girlfriend was probably three hundred and fifty pounds, if not more.
Sure. And it was just like.
Like it was so visually striking.
Well, Jack Spratt.

(01:07:32):
But it was it was just the whole thing went together to just be like I'm in some sort of a sitcom.
Trailer part boys or something wild.
And it was so enjoyable and all the people were fantastic.
Like it was just a great experience and it had its difficulties and stuff. But then I'm doing that paying out of state tuition, working two jobs, missing meals.
Everything's chaos. I'm making friends, but I don't really know anyone like, you know, the manager at the pizza place I worked at tried to get me to smoke weed for months because that's what they would do.

(01:08:06):
They'd all go out and party after work and smoke weed at his house and stuff.
And I was just all like, I don't do I will never. But I would go to the parties.
So this is Kalispell in the early 2000s.
Yeah, it was early 2000s.
The Aughts and Kalispell.
Yeah.
Lots of those now like two thousand three Montana towns were just like ski bomb towns and the sticks.
Yeah.

(01:08:27):
I bet Kalispell and the Aughts was really fun.
Beautiful.
Now there's malls everywhere and it's really weird.
Still beautiful.
Oh, sure.
But then an army recruiter called me and he's like, so I see that you are attending.
Array of experiences.
See you're attending. You're you're you're working on your paramedic license and you're paying out of state tuition.

(01:08:50):
So basically that was his pitch. He was just like, join the army.
We will as a medic, you'll get training that's way better than what you're getting right now and you'll get paid to do it.
We'll feed you.
And you will experience things that you're never going to get on the civilian side.
So I called up my dad that night and I was like, dad, what do you think?
And he was just like, I don't remember what he said, but my dad is not like he's like, what do you think?

(01:09:15):
You know, he'll give you his opinion, but he's not going to try to, you know, like he's he he's always let me go.
Let me decide and stuff.
But then the next morning I called the recruiter and signed up.
Sign me up, friend.
Yep. And then I shipped out to bad ass or relaxing Jackson or Jackson.

(01:09:36):
Basic training. Did that for nine weeks and then went down to Fort Sam Houston for advanced individual training, the medic training.
That was six months.
Then of contact from a year long discipleship Bible school, I went through.
She was living in Corvallis and so she was just like and I would because I'm a brat.
So I call her like four in the morning, wake her up, you know, just whatever. And and you know, we were just friends and and and but she she put up with me.

(01:10:04):
And so she's like, why don't you just come to Corvallis?
And I was like, OK, like what else am I going to do?
So that was the link to Corvallis.
Or again, a Bible school in McMinnville.
Yeah. And then neat.
And then she worked at the place that my wife's parents owned.

(01:10:25):
Yeah. And so that's how we connected and this family got started.
And, you know.
Bravo.
Put my roots down.
That's awesome, man.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
That's the truncated version.
I like that.
Thanks for filling me in, man.
I had to like row over a lot of deep memories, though.

(01:10:47):
Oh, yeah.
Any ones you need to go back at?
Oh, no.
Everything comes in its time.
But no, it's but it's just nice to to just have an opportunity to think back because I don't I don't reminisce.
I don't. I just don't.
Oh, yeah. I'm with you.
I mean, I love my memories and my past.

(01:11:09):
And and I hear some folks talk about how, oh, man, I wish I was 25 again.
I was like, I don't I mean, I'm happy.
I'm happy for the person that I've become based on my experiences.
But traveling back in time is not something that I think is a healthy attempt to do as a human.

(01:11:30):
Here's your second attempt to get me to start talking about time that doesn't exist.
Time doesn't exist, Michael.
That's a topic I'm going to dive into someday.
How do you mean by this? Because I've talked to people clearly.
Show up at nine.

(01:11:51):
Okay. All right.
But as far as the perception of time passing her one's thoughts, what is what is what is nine based on?
What is the basis of timekeeping?
Oh, just the sun.
Okay. Sure. The ultimate basis for timekeeping is what do they call that radio?

(01:12:14):
Whatever activity. No radio.
Okay. Whatever. It's decay.
Ultimately, it's a time is a measurement of decay, AKA change in the world.
As I see it from my subconscious control center screens, what I see subconscious control

(01:12:35):
interface screen engage now tracking simulate human time is just a series of this moment.
So you're you you're never going to get to the next moment.
So I love that you just never will.
Well, I mean, whenever we get there, here we are like the future is now.

(01:12:56):
No, no, it's now. But so is the past.
The future is now. It's now.
So our brains because of the way our brains are wired and the way every all of our sensory input, all the data collection that we do, the way that it works is that we have a 15 second lag where what we're seeing is kind of a compilation.
Try it out. The last 15. Try it out. All right.

(01:13:19):
Let's have a 15 second pause. Doesn't look.
I'm talking about things I'm just just diving into.
Okay. Okay. This is talk to me in years if you want to really get the coherent.
But the concept is that that one day.
What was that?

(01:13:41):
You didn't hear anything I said for the last 15 seconds. Did you?
Time isn't the thing. I agree. What do you mean by last 15 seconds?
Dude, we need to like submit this to the field of documented proof.
I'm just being a brat. But I love the idea of getting rid of the whole the whole what we've built time to be.

(01:14:02):
Yeah. Yes. Sure. The point is that in this series of moments.
We have to perceive three dimensions in a way that makes sense so that we can survive.
This has to happen. And so the mechanics for that is that we see time as a flow. However, there's only ever one moment.
And so the moment that happened before the moment that's going to happen in the moment that is happening now are all happening at the same time.

(01:14:28):
Just at a different point in the time structure. Sure. So time is just the word we use to describe what we but it means something.
We can't fully grasp as far as our timeline. But knowing that it isn't what we thought it was.
Knowing that time is not what I thought it was changes how I see the world. Sure. And it gives me it gives me the capacity more capacity for joy.

(01:14:51):
That's why. Ah, well, there you go. That's it. That's good.
And it's also a triggering topic for most people. So fun time. Oh, yeah.
Try to try to walk up to anyone. Try to be in an argument. Be like, well, time doesn't exist.
Try to say that to anyone and see what reaction you get. Trigger. I mean, I love it.
I try to I hope more people ask me this because, yeah, the the part of my brain, part of my body, part of my soul that just meanders through life.

(01:15:23):
Does not need time. Yeah. It doesn't think about time. Doesn't. But a part of you that's watching the people. Yeah, doesn't.
Time doesn't exist to that part of you. But we need to know what time it is to help us have an authoritative power over people or know when to be at a certain place.

(01:15:44):
The architect, the archetype of time, the concept of time is not only useful, it doesn't physical life in three dimensions doesn't work without it.
I mean, however, tool we use to go about our boring, crude matter lives. I agree. Just like words are a tool we use to try to communicate emotions to each other.
Right. Neither one of them do any justice to the reality. So is there going to be a day when do we graduate where we can do the whole like chakran thing stranger in a strange land and just interpret feelings through auras, whether they're slickened or not.

(01:16:19):
There are people that do that all over the world. And I feel that sometimes it's like you feel something you feel you are what's up and how can I help. Are you sad. What's the matter.
I'm just I'm just chasing it. I know it exists. I know the reality is out there. And so I'm just keeping my eyes open for whatever is in front of them.

(01:16:42):
And I see more and more and more and more and more as I realize that time doesn't exist. So I stop thinking about the future and stop worrying about the past worrying about the future being afraid.
Thinking about and pull every scrap of my attention to right here. Right now. I'm totally on board with that because and you can you can say some fun things like oh you've got to respect the past but look forward to the future but make sure you're paying attention and living in the present.

(01:17:09):
Yeah, that's fun. Comedy doesn't work unless you're drawing from the past. Sure.
But you gotta say from bears doesn't work unless you're drawing from the past. But sure, the brain.
The brain the bar titating on that past that past that awareness of that past in your conscious mind doesn't exact actually have anything to do with the past the awareness is happening here.

(01:17:33):
And everything in that awareness is about here. So, anything about the past that isn't just helping keeping me safe from bears and find where the berries are. Right. It's learning our what we do with the knowledge in the present can be a mage to what we've learned in the past.
But unless we're doing something in the moment that is using these vast reservoirs of data and knowledge and love and perception that we've gathered then.

(01:17:58):
Forgiveness becomes the easiest thing in the world when I'm sure the past doesn't exist from the worldview that the past doesn't exist.
Forgiveness and therefore joy happiness becomes very well forgiveness guilt.
Now we're getting into like your your Christian your Catholic buzzwords that sort of thing.

(01:18:20):
Even forgiveness I've thought about in my older age and who's the for elder age for.
Yeah, I'm 65 now on camera.
So forgiveness when one minute say you're older than your love gives.
Oh, it's because I don't I smoke and drink too much and I sleep on my face. You take care of yourself. Good job.

(01:18:45):
I shaved this beard off now. It's coming soon. Actually, hey, I've been excited. I've actually been really excited about talking to you face to face. I'll beard it up in in February.
Is that why you have a beard? I've been waiting for this moment.
I think there's a song about that. Oh, waiting for this moment. Oh, my life.

(01:19:07):
Someone like you.
That I finally found you. It's a it's a 2000s boy band or 90s boy band.
Like, like, I don't know anything about those things.
Guilty pleasure for me. Oh, you put on some good boy band or like like Britney Spears from the two. Oh, yeah.

(01:19:34):
I love myself some Britney down with that. So you know what it is?
I just figured it out. I was listening to Britney Spears the other day.
And there's that symbol crash in the background that 98 degrees and sing Britney Spears Backstreet Boys.
They use way too much in every one of their songs. So delicious. It's great.

(01:19:58):
It's like it's like biting into a juicy hamburger.
It's like the staccato emphasis they put.
I don't even think it has rhyme or reason. I should count it out the next one listening to toxic.

(01:20:20):
I hope you buy.
I don't know. It's the same sound of all of it. It's the same sound for like one song and then I'm over it.
Like, oh, these guys are great. Let's keep using the sound. So the producers of all those tracks must be like.
But that was back when it was like the big things were a new thing, that type of a big thing.

(01:20:42):
And so it's like, oh, this made money. And then you could replicate the algorithms over and over and over and then until you couldn't.
And so now music's becoming what it is, which is fantastic to watch. Oh, fantastic.
As in instead of humans, all change, figure out the formulas. It's just robots.
It's people that are sitting down in front of equipment they can scrounge together and they're making fucking music from just from their emotions.

(01:21:07):
And they're being like, I don't really care. There's nobody that made them. It's neat. Beautiful. Lovely.
And we're just going to see more and more and more. I know you're going to start your comedy podcast.
So it's just going to be great. I'd rather do the then I'll get your music thing.
Engineered music. Yeah. What would we explain? Oh, like take all of the notes and words ever recorded and boy bands and Britney Spears and et cetera.

(01:21:39):
Just put all of those sounds out on a keyboard with each button representing one of these sounds.
Are you going to bring back boy band girl band music? Oh, no.
In fact, this is more of a parody, if you will, because honestly, there's only like 26 different sounds available after breaking down something you actually want to do.

(01:22:05):
Yeah, this is me just being a brat. Okay, fine. So podcast then, huh? I don't know. So comedy cast.
So I had married you for doing a podcast. What's your art? What is your art?
Art as in a discipline that one practices often in order to improve the media of the world.

(01:22:29):
What do you mean by art? What is the thing that your self wants to do?
Where do you find flow state? I don't know, dude. You define art wherever you find it. I ask the questions.
Whatever the fuck comes out of your brain is what I'm after. Right. Be like, well, wearing glasses, I would say.

(01:22:52):
I don't give a shit what you say. I'm just curious what's in there. You have like a whole closet for glasses, don't you? I wish.
Only got like maybe 10 pairs. I did not sense sincerity in that wish of yours. I mean, that would be gratuitous. Really stupid.
There's a point where too many glasses are too many. And even at 10 glasses, that's a little too many because they can only wear one pair at a time.

(01:23:17):
I have a question for you, Carl. What's up? What's your art? Man.
I mean, what I'm defining art as is something that I don't care how you define art.
I want to know what comes out of a deep part of you when you when you when when you hear the question, what is your art?

(01:23:38):
Super easy, man. It's it's it's not deep at all. I think if I have any type of art to offer to the world, it would be poetry.
However. I do like the idea of one finding art as interacting with humans on an everyday basis.

(01:24:02):
However, poetry is more introverted and I consider myself an introvert. That has to be extroverted all the time.
Hey, man, I wish I had a more poetic, a poetic art to share with you, but I think that's it.

(01:24:23):
Maybe just being in the world, actually, I think about it like being a part of everything is art.
Carl, right. OK, number one, too many things.
I'll be taking notes. This is so great. Number one.
I just want to point out the irony of saying, let me see. Let me let me paraphrase. Let me cut this down.

(01:24:45):
It's the intro extra thing, huh? Words. No, that's item number three.
This is item number one. My art, I believe my art is poetry.
I wish I had a more poetic art, but I thought that was funny, too. OK, that was intentional.
I wouldn't say it was intentional, but I was very because that was intentional, man.

(01:25:09):
That was so sly. Anyway, OK, I just I fucking appreciate the deadpan art that is so subtle that you just about can't get like that is my favorite kind of art.
Dry, sarcastic, deadpan subtle. Anyway. OK. Item number two is shit. Shit.

(01:25:33):
I can't remember item number two. Oh, I thought I had a number. OK, no, no, no.
I don't remember. No, I don't. Very funny. No, I don't. No, I don't. No, but two became item number three.
Item number two now is I was a really big fan of poop jokes, man.
It's just like a...
You're making me forget my train of thought.
Not my favorite.
This is not a good trick for a podcast host

(01:25:53):
to be able to forget his thought.
I wish I could help you.
I wish you could help me too.
All right, so we talked about how funny it was,
how uproarious we both laughed over saying
that I wish my art was more poetic than just writing poetry.

(01:26:15):
I guess I do have that question about being introverted.
Introvert, introvert.
Why do you see yourself as being an introvert?
And why do you see yourself as being required?
You said I have to be.
Well, that's the job thing.
I have to be.
That's the job thing.
I would say, yeah, there's a point,
hopefully, that one day I wouldn't have to have a phone.

(01:26:36):
I wouldn't have to be as plugged in.
And I'm not even plugged in.
Honestly, the reason why I keep looking this way
is because there's a camera here.
True.
And I feel like that's the closest camera to me,
so that's the one that I should be paying attention to.
And you can feel it breathing probably in your ear almost.
It's like right up over your shoulder.
If you were reading something or typing something,
it would know what you, it's like intrusive.

(01:26:57):
To be over your shoulder feels intrusive to a human.
I didn't really think intrusive.
Well, I'm just making that up so I could be wrong.
Well, for whatever reason, this one,
I just don't even see this one.
I don't either.
This is this one neither of us see.
I'm at my most peaceful by myself.

(01:27:20):
Okay.
However, whatever traits that I've built up
to interact with the world and to earn an income
to be a part of the world require me to be extroverted.
Would you feel peaceful permanently by yourself?
Probably not, and I don't know,
because I've never really had an opportunity

(01:27:41):
to see what that's like.
Well, like all words, introverted and extroverted are empty
and you're on the spectrum.
But it's fun for me to just see how your brain sees it.
Oh, sure.
I hope you're getting a picture of it.
Where it is on the quadrants.
Not only am I, but I realized very recently
that I am not at all the extreme extrovert I thought I was.

(01:28:02):
And now one of the most valuable sacred things for me
is just the quiet.
And I don't need to be alone.
Oh, sure.
But I need quiet.
Quiet and?
I need to have the option to completely disconnect
from everything going on around me.
It can keep going on.
It doesn't bother me at all.
And I give myself that option.
It's permission granted for me, but it weirds people out.

(01:28:26):
When I go into zombie mode,
because I seriously just disappear.
Like my eyes will be open and I'll be sitting there,
but I don't know what it looks like from the outside.
No one's ever whatever.
I actually appreciate that
because it does, when I say I would like that piece that,
it's like, it's not loneliness, it's solitude.
I mean, yes.

(01:28:46):
I don't, it's not like I must be alone.
Like I'm doing something.
Oh, that makes perfect sense.
In solitude, that's different from what I would be doing.
If I was sitting next to Nicole on a couch,
I'm here to zone it out to some tube.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
But that's not a peaceful place for me.
It's an entertaining place.
You use the term unplugged.
I think, is that common anymore

(01:29:07):
where people just need to kind of shut down,
go into hibernation mode for a little bit of time?
Meditate.
That's what meditation is, isn't it?
I think that it's something
that's biologically necessary for humans,
but I don't think that almost any humans do it.
And then we just have medications
to cover up all the symptoms of that.

(01:29:28):
We aren't just being.
It's like everything goes into peripheral vision.
All my senses go into peripheral mode.
So I'm literally seeing everything that's happening.
I'm hearing every sound.
I'm experiencing everything that's happening in the room.
And I divide my attention between it.
So all my spotlight,

(01:29:49):
because when you're looking,
I'm looking at you right now and I have a spotlight vision
and I'm not even thinking about my periphery.
It's two different visions.
Same with hearing, same with touch, same with all of it.
You turn off the spotlight mode by looking inside.
Focus on breathing, whatever it is.
For me, I have a sound
that comes out of the center of my head.
That's like this.
It's like this dancing.

(01:30:10):
It's like this dancing.
Opposite of that then.
It is insane.
So I just learned something by talking to you.
Thank you.
I go to the center of that sound.
Introvert, extrovert, these are archaic terms.
I guess that's just the only terms that I have
to describe what I mean.
But I think it just comes down to the fact that
I just need to meditate more.

(01:30:32):
Extrovert, introvert, who cares?
You are who you are.
You feel how you feel.
You do what you do.
In meditation, you literally pull up to the fuel station.
Yes.
You gotta refill the soul meter.
Yes.
Yeah.
Energy meter, whatever you wanna call it.
So I guess I wouldn't describe myself as anything, Michael.

(01:30:53):
Well, and you did get there
because what was the thing you said about
when I said, what is your art?
And the final thing you said
before we went into all the tangents was,
I guess just being in the world, really.
And my friend.
Well, why not?
Isn't that great?
Yes, it is.

(01:31:13):
Just being a part of it all.
One of my favorite things to say in an intro
to this illustrious podcast is
because the name is emotion art.
Oh, right, yeah.
And one time it just occurred to me, emotion,
because that's what we're made out of.
Humans are made out of emotions and art
because everything that a human wants to do is art.

(01:31:39):
As in?
Call me provincial,
but this is the first time I've connected with
you asking the question, what is your art?
You appear to be provincial to me.
And then emotion art.
Do you feel provincial today?
Provincial beast.
Oh, it's like that.
Excuse me, could you please cut down the provincial

(01:32:00):
a little bit?
Provinciality.
Typical prevention.
That's a question a provincial person would ask.
I think the next time I use the term, call me provincial.
Is provincial synonymous with Karen?
I'm going to insist that I'm called provincial.
Call me provincial.
Continue with your thought provincial.

(01:32:23):
Thank you.
How you doing?
Fantastic.
Sweet.
So what do you want to talk about?
You were in the middle of a fucking thought.
Are we starting, are we scraping,
are we digressing?
Are we side-marring?
Usually.
Most of the time.
We may have come to the end of that.
And if that's the case, well, honey,

(01:32:45):
we've got a whole main track to get back to.
Oh yeah.
Which is, which is.
Adler.
No, fuck no.
We've already been, we're beyond that.
We cleared that.
We cleared Adler?
We cleared that.
But there's no clearing it, dude.
I'm going to be rereading those books a couple of times.
I actually want to do a whole episode.
It's horizontal, we're clearing it all the time.
It's easy to jump over,
but I want to do a whole episode on these books
with Angela.

(01:33:05):
Angela and we're talking about this
because she's reading them too.
And we're just like, why don't we just talk about them?
So we'll see.
But I want to start doing that with a lot of books.
So maybe that's going to be a thing.
You should.
But you were born in Chicago.
Born in Chicago.
Right.
I'm just curious for a little bit of the same treatment
where you just give me a little brush through
of what brought you here.
I would love to, but I also want to sidebar this

(01:33:27):
by saying we have both lived in Chicago.
Chicago.
Montana and Oregon.
What?
What?
Montana's fantastic.
Excuse me, yeah.
Oregon's the best of all of them.
Did you ever live in Alaska?
I have.
I went there for work.
Did you ever live in Wyoming?
Been through there.
So that might be the one.

(01:33:47):
Well, I'm sure there's plenty.
I have taken the Greyhound.
I've been at the Cheyenne bus station many times.
Like I haven't lived in Wyoming, I don't think.
Like as in one domicile, but I've spent enough time there.
No, I'm just curious.
As I've lived in Oregon, I've found lots of people
who have some roots or tethers in Montana, the Midwest,

(01:34:13):
lots of places.
Lots of transplants around here.
Shoot, I've only lived here for five years.
Going on five now?
No, four.
It'll be four in June.
Well, I'm glad you're here.
Aw, that's very sweet.
Because it makes Oregon just a little fractionally better.

(01:34:33):
It truly does.
Hey, Oregon's awesome.
Give me the little.
It don't need no fractions.
Give me a little rundown.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Give me the little timeline story.
All right, this is born in Chicago,
Year of the Dragon, 1988.
Five years of youth.
From baby to toddler.
Is toddler still a five year old?
Sure, I don't know.

(01:34:54):
Okay, yeah.
I don't know.
Everyone develops at a different rate.
Oh, sure.
I've met 30 year old toddlers, let's go.
Dad divorced, or my mom divorced, my dad moved to Wyoming.
I don't need to label it.
Boom!
Grew up in Wyoming, but spent every summer in Chicago.
And then when I did my first year

(01:35:14):
at the University of Wyoming,
I ended up going spending time
with my grandmother in Chicago.
So I went back in my early 20s.
I can't really say I lived there full time,
but I was definitely where I called home,
like my place, like base camp.
Got a little too difficult to stay away from schooling,
move back to Wyoming.

(01:35:35):
Unfortunately, she passed away shortly after that.
Went back to school, worked up in Alaska for a while
on some fishing boats.
After that, lived in Bozeman.
And then when I got priced out of Bozeman,
I moved to Falamath.
Boom!
You've lived in three- Did I get that in under two minutes?

(01:35:56):
You've lived in three places.
I would give myself Chicago, Wyoming, Montana, and Oregon.
Four places.
And I would say that's it.
I'm not gonna count Alaska,
because it was- Five places.
I never had home there.
It was a sub-post. But it counts.
But it counts.
I got people in my family that did that for a while.
I never worked on a fishing boat, but-

(01:36:17):
Yeah.
So how does all of that feel to you?
What does your growing up experience feel like overall?
What was your experience with it?
Growing up?
Sure.
Great, it was fine.
How do I feel?
I'm gonna have to feel about this really quickly,
because I love the mantras,

(01:36:42):
and I do the whole, yeah, you feel how you feel.
Don't be guilty or apologize
for however you feel in any moment.
And also, why analyze it?
Just be you.
I don't have- That's a good response.
Strong feelings about anything that I've ever done in my life.

(01:37:02):
You were kidding it up.
I was, I don't know.
Hey, that's-
Call me weird and cynical, but it's like-
About anything you've ever done in your life.
I'll bet we could come up with one or two things
that you've got strong feelings about.
Or maybe that's a statement about yourself now,
more than maybe you've had things where you've-

(01:37:22):
Hey man, I wish dispassion, the term dispassion,
I wish the term dispassion did not have
a negative connotation tied to it.
Because I do find myself a dispassionate person.
This doesn't mean I don't have emotion
or compassion for people.
It just means that a lot of the times
it's just to zen out and be.

(01:37:43):
When you are displaying intense, colorful,
riotous passion in all of your interactions
in front of a crowd on a stage,
when you're on a stage, is that fake?
You know, I've not been on a stage in a long time.
You are, my friend, on a stage every day.
I wouldn't consider so.

(01:38:03):
But you're in front of people in the way that I'm using it.
I'm using it to describe, being on a stage I'm using
to describe your customer service,
like all of your interactions.
I would not consider, I have not been on stage
in the theatrical sense in a long time.
It was very blissful and it was more of a practice

(01:38:25):
than anything.
Being on stage was blissful?
Being on stage.
Which is why you seem to be in your everyday life.
I know it's easy to say, oh, that's a stage you're on,
you're on a stage.
But I don't consider that a stage.
It's not.
Let's use a different word then.
Well, you actually hooked into something here
that I didn't think, I hadn't even thought of.

(01:38:47):
Perhaps I repressed it, yes.
Just like acting and being a part of a community theater.
And yes, now I volunteer for the majestic,
which is great and fun,
just to be a person contributing time to.
But because of my job and that fake stage I'm on,
I don't have time at night to actually be blissful and act.

(01:39:10):
What did you say your art was?
Poetry.
Interesting, interesting.
So do I have a dormant art
and I've just been doing poetry just to compensate?
Well, since we've already established that it's everything.
Oh yeah, there's been.
There's been.
But I'm just like, I see your eyes light up.
I hear the timbre of your voice change
as you're talking about acting.
It's been a while, man.
And I'm just like, honey.

(01:39:31):
It's been a while, dude.
Why?
Get up there.
There's a euphoria that is only,
that I have only experienced interpreting,
reading an audience that is there to watch a play
that they may know or not.
And literally keying your emotions
and changing emotional color,

(01:39:52):
literally for the entertainment of people
who are sitting there in a dark room
with a bunch of other people.
And that I would think of,
like that to me feels like the distilled stage experience.
That's the distilled, that's the spotlight.
But you walk around in life on a stage.
Like you are, bro, I interact with you.

(01:40:14):
Anytime that you're at the Dirt Road Street party,
the times that I see you, you're on a stage.
Hell, my friend, when you come over for a party,
you have this flair.
You have this theatrical element.
You're always.
You're very kind, Michael.
So, but yeah, yeah, that's true.
That's true.

(01:40:35):
Well, there you go.
That's cool.
It's something that.
You are an actor, just the way it is.
It is true.
And you are in, I freaking love to watch it.
But I wish I didn't have to like act.
So fucking funny.
Oh my God. Like every day.
Yeah.
Acting for, acting on stage
in a theatrical sense is one thing, but acting.

(01:40:55):
You mean, okay.
I mean, I don't wanna challenge you talking
about how you feel inside, but I also do.
Not at all.
What do you got?
But you don't want to be trapped in a system
where you have to trade your time for money,
where you have to do this job to get money.
It is.
Rather than.
It is a tough concept.

(01:41:15):
Being on a stage, because I, what I see of you is.
Oh sure.
Yes, there's this whole meditation side.
There's this whole.
This whole quiet side. Acting on stage
is very meditative.
Meditative.
But you feel like,
cause you use the word fake for,
because I asked you if you, if the acting that you do,
the, and I'm, and by the way,

(01:41:37):
I'm still talking about the word dispassionate.
The thing I'm talking about is dispassionate.
And. Dig it, yeah.
And you are not at all dispassionate.
Like unless you, unless you are somehow able
to fake passion, you have so much passion.
It's probably not the passion you think of
when you think of passion, but it's emotion.
It's a life bubbling out emotion.

(01:42:00):
It is passion.
No, I'm not saying that.
I do have a lot of emotion.
I do, I do feel a lot of people.
I love feeling people's feelings.
I love when people share feelings.
But again, dispassion is just a net zero,
like focal point.
I just don't think you're talking about dispassion.
Can I suggest a different word?

(01:42:21):
Without passion is dispassionate.
Yes, please.
I don't see you as someone without passion.
And so I'm.
Dispassion doesn't mean without passion.
It literally does though.
Webster.
I knew I needed to bring my dictionary for this.
You can pull out your phone.
Dis, what does the prefix dis mean?
Phone. Without.
You can't, a phone's not a dictionary, man.

(01:42:43):
Without passion.
Okay.
Dis, dis, dis, dis.
Well, dis is when you like in a rap battle.
No.
To me, dispassion means without passion,
but I don't know the etymology exactly.
Without passion.
Without passion.
Without passion.
So can I just suggest.

(01:43:05):
Is zen dispassion?
It probably depends on who you ask if you're looking.
And the word zen is such, it's a religious word basically.
It's so, everyone has a different meaning for zen.
Zen doesn't mean anything.
The place.
I think I need to come up with my definition for dispassion.
I have a suggestion for another word.
Please.
But talking about zen, what I think of a zen

(01:43:30):
is a place of profound passion
because I disassociate from everything happening around me
and sink fully into myself.
I'm still aware of everything happening around me,
but it becomes the background.
It's flowing through.
It's like the whole thing is water.
I'm in water.
And it's, I'm feeling it all around me.
Dispassion too is that state

(01:43:50):
where everything's washing over you.
The passion, the chaos of passion that I'm just feeling,
but I've become the observer.
So I'm not acting on it.
I'm just watching it and it's just fucking beautiful.
And it goes wherever my thoughts go.
But so I'm wondering if instead of dispassionate,
I feel like you are a very accepting person.

(01:44:11):
You are, you have a.
You have.
No.
I don't like the use of the word accepting.
I want to use the word surrender.
That's what I want to do,
but it would take so many words to explain
what I mean by that.
Because of surrenders connotation.
So I'm trying to use the word accepting.
I like accepting.
Because the accepting person,

(01:44:32):
when you step into this, now we're back into Adler.
Holy fuck, dude.
We're straight back into Adler.
But the acceptance is not dispassion.
But when the Western culture sees, hears,
like I say, I want to live a choiceless life.
And they hear, I don't care about anything.
I want to just zone out and become a whatever.

(01:44:52):
And it's like, that's not at all what it means.
Well, when I say dispassion,
I mean that there is no outward or inward impression
that is changing the way my center interacts with the world.
That sounds like acceptance to me, my friend.
Hey, acceptance is a way better word.
Because you, my friend, are not dispassionate.

(01:45:13):
And I beg, and I stand to be corrected
because you know you.
Sure.
But I'm gonna pretend like I know you.
I like you.
Hey, man, we're getting there.
We're both born in Chicago, bud.
We've broken bread together.
Yeah.
Fed the loaves and the fishes.

(01:45:34):
We were on a podcast once.
I can remember that far back.
That's about how far my memory goes, though.
It's good times.
I don't remember much before that.
The future is now.
So, you accepting artist?
Sure.
So then. Again, very kind.
So then you dispassionately came to order you.

(01:45:54):
Is my adlering seesaw raising in elevation right now?
Because if someone told me an accepting artist,
I would find that as a compliment.
Probably, I don't know.
But you know what, Adler, it can't be.
There's gotta be spikes in emotion here or there.
Instead of keeping it on this horizontal plane,
can't we allow for a little seesaw?

(01:46:14):
Since you're talking about spikes of emotion,
I just have to tell you,
every time I hear the name Adler,
unfortunately, I think of Rattler.
Rattler?
And then I'm imagining a rattlesnake.
I don't even know why I said that,
but it is what happens in my brain.
Rattler.
Because I live in an epic fantasy
where my brain is telling a story
about everything that's happening around me all the time.

(01:46:36):
And there's usually dangerous creatures and magic
and knights and freaking who knows what, Tim.
Tim?
Tim.
This is a person named Tim.
Tim the Wizard?
Is his identity named Tim?
I don't know Tim.
Tim the Wizard?
Is Tim in the room with us right now?

(01:46:58):
Probably not.
He's guarding the whatever thing, the bridge,
and you can't cross it
unless you answer his three questions.
What?
Tim.
Is your name?
I'm Carl.
What is your favorite color?
Fire engine red, baby.
What is the airspeed velocity of an African swallow?

(01:47:22):
No idea.
Oh, is this where I say,
this is where I say.
No, this is where you say laden or unladen,
and then Tim goes flying off the bridge instead of.
Oh, Tim.
Come on, it's Monty Python.
I'm just quoting Monty Python.
I love Monty Python, but you know,
I've tried to watch Holy Grail
a couple times after I saw it the first time

(01:47:44):
and I can't make it through.
I'm disappointed.
In?
Nothing really, actually.
But we are gonna watch Holy Grail eventually together.
Ah, that's fine.
It's gonna be hilarious.
It's probably gonna be.
Because it's the most quotable movie of all time.
Is it?
No, but it is very quotable.
What's the most quotable movie of all time?
Fuck if I know.

(01:48:05):
Let me think.
I probably quote that as much as anything else.
Sure.
I don't know.
You know, I don't quote movies very often,
but I do quote the Office television series often.
That is very quotable.
Yeah.
Plus it's just awesome.
In fact, I really hope nobody ever finds out
that half of the things that I say

(01:48:25):
are just quotes from the Office.
The other half are quotes from other things.
Actor, what can I say?
You can't say anything.
Original.
It's all quotes.
I wish I could just have one original thought in my life.
We'll work on that.
I'll see if I can help.
Yeah, I know some people.
I could probably work that out for you.
We should.
Yeah, yeah.
Results are good.

(01:48:46):
So what do you wanna talk about?
Oregon.
So you come to Oregon.
Oh yeah, Oregon.
Oregon's the best place in the world.
I love it.
The ocean's awesome.
Salt life, baby.
Are you here for good?
Do you see yourself here long-term?
I think so.
There's nowhere else I wanna go.
And you're working for,
you're working at the freaking most hoppin' place
in Philomath.

(01:49:06):
Oh, it's the dopest, man.
That throws the best.
The best party in the surrounding countryside
with the most incredible pageantry.
No, I'm making up.
In my mind, it just became a Renaissance fair,
but anyway, it's the Dirt Road Street Party,
and it is epic.
We should involve a Renaissance fair aspect to it.

(01:49:28):
You're gonna have to get that one by the decision maker.
Maybe you could trick him into thinking your decision maker,
then you could get it by him.
I have an idea.
I think he likes red, white, and blue.
We get a block of vending booths,
three in a row, ooh,
and just build whatever we want inside of it.

(01:49:49):
It could be literally 30 by 10 square feet on the street,
and when you walk in, you're in a Renaissance fair.
I like the idea.
I need to credit fictional character Ted Mosby
for not being able to pronounce Renaissance

(01:50:11):
in any way than Renaissance,
and always self-reflecting about these things.
Indeed.
I mean, if there's, so one thing that I've learned from
you and yours over the years,
do you remember our wait not, want not conversation?
Because there's all these people who are like,
waste not, want not,

(01:50:33):
and then I think you and Andrew are like,
wait not, want not.
Because in a certain- Sounds like a conversation
we would have. In a certain sense,
like why wait?
If we want a Renaissance aspect of something
that we're all a part of, let's just do it.
Why are we waiting?
Okay. Let's just do it.

(01:50:54):
Okay, well, instead of going down that road,
how about- Renaissance fair?
Between one of the bands have the whole music kit
left set up, and I know a fantastic teenage band.

(01:51:15):
Give them a song, two songs maybe, but anyway, a song.
That would be a lot easier to pull off
than a whole Renaissance, excuse me, Renaissance setup,
but both would be fun.
Anyway, food for thought, ideas.
Wow, I've never been to a Renaissance fair.
Seriously? Yeah.
Well, there's two really good ones around here.

(01:51:36):
It's kind of beyond my conceptualization.
Oh my goodness, Carl, we are going to be going
to the Renaissance fair next summer.
Renaissance fair? Renaissance, yes sir.
Dude, sign me up. There's a really good one
up towards Portland in Camby.
But it's a little bit more mainstream,
and it's way bigger, and it's so good.
But then the local one is the Shrewsbury Fair,

(01:51:57):
which is out west of here actually, out in Wren.
Or, yeah, I think so.
When's this? That torching valley?
Late, whenever it's the hottest it could possibly be
in a sun soaked field.
Oh.
Good.
Scorching. Yes.
But they have, it's so worth it.
It's so worth it.

(01:52:18):
Sign me up, man. They both have jousting.
They both have. Gotta take it off now.
It's so great, dude.
Renaissance fairs are such, just a time to step away
with no pressure, unless you have little kids,
then it's all stress and pressure.
We just realize that we're just gonna lose one
every once in a while. Sure.
They always turn back up. Yeah.
It's great. Yeah.
So you're pursuing, you're working in your daily trade,

(01:52:43):
your time for money life.
You are doing stage work.
You are doing in front of people work,
maybe not on a stage per se,
although every dirt road street party you are on a stage.
Does that feel sublime?
Does that feel that feeling you were describing before?
Are you gonna pursue acting?
That's what I'm trying to get to.
Hey, man. Get to here.
I thought by now that I would be able to

(01:53:06):
pursue it a little more.
And it's not like I'm trying to get rich or famous off it.
Just wanna do it at nights, but it's what you wanna do.
Yes, I'm very grateful for my opportunities to be,
as many would say, on stage at work,
or on stage hosting these parties,
or on stage however you've seen me.
But there is something much more sublime

(01:53:28):
about script rehearsal with a group of people
acting show time that I just haven't been part of
in a long time.
And who knows what I'll think about it
if I ever get back into one.
And you don't feel like you have time to do it right now?
Is that why you're?
Oh, I don't.
Yeah, I don't.
That's why I said you don't feel like you do.

(01:53:49):
You speak in a lot of definites.
You're like, I can't do that.
I have to do this.
And the truth is everything you're talking about
are simply choices you're making.
It's true.
Nobody's telling.
Because what I wanna ask every time is says who?
Who's making these rules?
And it's also bratty.
It's the bratty side because also.
And take the bratty side.
At the end of the day, you have to be like,
well bro, I don't have time to do everything.

(01:54:10):
I don't know, I'm trying to figure it out.
But that's why I ask these questions
is because I wanna know, why aren't you doing it?
Because you have one life to live.
Why aren't you doing it?
I do understand and appreciate everyone
who wants to impact people's sense of urgency
into accomplishing their bliss.
But man, right now everything's washing over me

(01:54:33):
and I'm still working on it.
Mission accomplished.
Yeah, I have absolutely no doubt
that I will achieve the pinnacles of bliss
that I have in the past.
And even if I don't, it doesn't matter.
I got it.
I know how that feels to be there.

(01:54:56):
And this is why I wanted to talk to you.
What?
Because that's what life, that's your worldview.
That's the world that you're looking out of a window
that says, what's the hurry?
Everything's good.
Oh yeah, I mean, I'm happy.
Everything is good.
That's beautiful.
Yeah.
And do you know how rare that is?
I'm discovering it's rare.

(01:55:20):
Is that how your whole life has felt?
Kind of.
There's been rarely a moment where I thought.
What do you attribute that to?
I don't know, man.
Your upbringing, I mean, you didn't have like a,
like you're between everywhere, but I don't know.
That's why I was asking you,
what did your upbringing feel like?
If I ever.
If I. Oh, nothing.

(01:55:41):
Bra.
I wish I could answer that question
with a little more specificity.
Bra, you are answering them great, everyone.
Every one of them.
And sometimes, sometimes I feel like there could be
a little more eloquence when someone's like,
hey, what's the secret to happiness?

(01:56:01):
And I can't say anything more than just be happy.
What's the problem?
Secret to happiness is.
Just be.
Do not prolong the past.
Do not hasten the future and do not fear appearances.
That's all there is.
And live in the present.
Do not fear appearances.
Do not fear appearances.
Because then you can live in the present

(01:56:21):
as you because every single person around you
that's judging you and doesn't like how you're doing things,
you don't give a fuck because you don't fear appearances.
And all the things that happened in the past,
you don't give a fuck because you're not prolonging the past.
And everything that's gonna happen in the future.
We just got the E, I love it.
You don't give a fuck because it doesn't exist.
And it will never exist because when you're there,

(01:56:43):
it's gonna be the present.
Yeah.
And then we'll be like, oh, this is what this is.
So now what?
Who am I?
That's the question we're always asking.
It's just so much easier.
It is what it is.
What are you afraid of?
I'm expect, I mean, you're all dispassion,
Mr. Dispassionate here.

(01:57:04):
So let's see you shoot this one down.
Fear?
What are you afraid of Carl?
Afraid.
I wanna know your deepest, most visceral fear
so I can use it against you.
I don't mind sharing.
Let me see if I can think of one.
Nothing's coming in mind.
Perfect.
You're afraid of nothing.

(01:57:24):
Are you saying you're fearless?
No, I'm afraid of things.
Doesn't really count.
Like the fear of- I'm afraid of things.
The fear of splatting into the ground
after you fall off of a 1000 foot cliff.
Like that doesn't really count.
That's a biological fear.
Do you have any existential fears?
What happens to you after you die?
Oh man.
What's the point? Who cares?
Why are you here?
Oh wow, who cares?

(01:57:45):
Who cares?
What happens to you after you die?
I mean, I guess I do, but I have no control over it.
Do you?
I think, I don't know, man.
I think it's gonna be cool.
Even if I'm just getting eaten by sea creatures.
Which one I died is throw me in the ocean.

(01:58:06):
Anywhere in the ocean.
Now who are you talking to?
Saltwater.
Sorry?
Who are you talking to?
Oh, anybody.
Tim.
Tim.
Tim, he's not a genie.
He doesn't fulfill wishes.
He just lets you pass or not,
depending on how you answer his questions.
There is, I can't, I can't say there's,

(01:58:29):
I have any existential fears where
I ever have a breakdown in happiness,
thinking about something that might happen in the future.
Were you raised with, like without religion?
Oh no, no.
My mom was very devout.
We were, it's the Catholic thing, man.
Oh, you said that.
I was Catholic.

(01:58:49):
How did you avoid Catholic guilt?
Did your mom have Catholic guilt?
Oh, big time.
My poor mother, God blessed her.
How did you avoid it?
Rest her soul.
I mean, and you may not have a opinion about that.
You know, at a certain point,
I saw a lot, and this was when I was a young man,
and maybe dreaming helped with it.
Maybe dreaming helped with it.

(01:59:10):
I forgot about that.
Yeah, dude, maybe dreaming helped with it.
Thank you for bringing that back up.
That is so interesting.
At a certain point, I made the cognitive decision
that nothing was going to hurt me anymore.
And I was like, you know what?
This is not gonna hurt me.
How old were you?
Eight, seven?

(01:59:31):
How does a seven year old come to that?
How?
Well, it was actually a physical pain.
Dropped on your head.
No.
There was a moment where with my family growing up,
I mean, we were spanked and stuff.

(01:59:52):
Word.
Right, and there was one time where my,
for something that was so dumb,
and I think about it,
and like if it happened in everyday time,
I think like we broke a doorknob and on the basement door,
and that was bad.
And my stepdad had spanked Thomas first,

(02:00:16):
and he started crying.
Man, we were young.
Seven, seven, six, eight, around there.
And I remember just going,
what's the point of feeling this pain?
Because it's not for anything.
It's not worth anything.
It's not good energy.

(02:00:37):
Nervous energy, like you can still take
and put it into energy that you can use in a positive manner.
But I just thought it was like guilt.
Phantom guilt.
There's nothing you can do with that.
Nothing.
It's literally just a cloud
that is hanging around your temples all the time.
Like quicksand.
Yeah, and you don't need it.
It doesn't do anything for our survival,

(02:00:57):
for our future, for the present, where we are.
So I just stopped being it.
Just stopped.
You know that meme about quicksand?
Like quicksand is such a big deal in the movies,
and then you become an adult,
and you're just like, wait, where's all the quicksand?
You know that meme?
Bro, quicksand is all just an allegory for guilt.

(02:01:17):
This is so funny too.
Interesting.
This is a sidebar.
Princess bride is starting to look more different.
My brothers and I would try to manufacture quicksand pits
on our property.
Because you were boys.
Yeah.
How many brothers did you have?
Four.
Shout out to you.
Shout out to Phil, Thomas, Stephen, and Timothy.
Hey guys.

(02:01:39):
They sound like cool cats.
Actually, Stephen's in town now.
Well, next time we record,
we'll get one or all of them.
And we'll just talk about,
we'll talk about,
cause I'll bet you every single one of them
is just as laid back as you, aren't they?
Probably, I don't know.
Probably not.
Yeah, probably not.

(02:01:59):
You're connected, you have good relationships with them?
Absolutely.
Fuck yes.
I mean, not like,
I'm not calling them every day.
No?
You guys don't have sleepovers?
No.
No?
You know, we never send each other gifts or anything.
What?
Like the little thing where you tap your Apple watch
and it like makes the heartbeat go.
See, what is this?
People keep like having these watches that like pay things.

(02:02:22):
And the person that you want to be asking this question to
is Bonnie.
Bonds?
She loves the Apple watch.
She can answer all these questions.
I tried it and I hate it passionately.
However, I think that the times of having a phone
in our pocket is probably not gonna last
for as long as we think.
Cool.

(02:02:43):
That's why I carry like the most low profile phone
is I don't even feel I have an on me.
I asked somebody why they wear the watch.
Yeah.
And they pay with it.
And then I asked them and they said,
it makes me feel younger.
Oh, are you serious?
Yeah, they're living,
they're using technology of modern technology
to vicariously live through what,
I guess they think is the norm.

(02:03:05):
Let's turn in our Adler text to chapter 14
verses three through seven.
I wonder what Adler would say about that.
Well, what Adler say about this?
Probably that that is a person who through,
who never learned to be self-reliant.
And so they have to get their, that feeling,

(02:03:25):
those feelings from outside of themselves from something.
And it's fantastic that they found something like that.
Hey, I had a, I was a brat about it.
But when they told me this, I was like, you know what?
Awesome.
You go live your dreams.
If you're finding that this is doing something for you,
then I'm all about it.
I'll never wear one.

(02:03:46):
And if you have to sit down and philosophize.
I can't say never, never say never, right?
If you can't help yourself,
but philosophize every single thing people do,
you need to ask yourself, what's wrong with you?
Well, I'm joyful in people's joy.
However they can.
I like that perspective.
I figure out how to walk around on planet earth.
Thank you.

(02:04:06):
And other planets soon.
Cause the planet earth needs people.
Walking around.
Or this themself, wearing a watch,
if that's what they want to do.
That's it.
In fact, that became a mantra, joyful in one's joy.
Getting a nose job, if that's what they want to do.
Yeah.
I used to have that thing where,
hey, when we go nose job, like, why would you do that?

(02:04:27):
What's the point?
People love you who you are.
Yeah.
But having long ass hair, like a hippie,
if that's what they want to do.
Why am I the person, get your nose job.
Wear your long ass hippie hair.
Wear your long ass hippie hair.
Wear your glasses.
Are you thinking about a specific person?
Me, no.
I didn't have anyone in mind.
I was just, I'm just free associating.

(02:04:50):
It just came, it just, it comes from like the ether, actually.
I have like this funnel channel.
Oh yeah.
Well, it's the cone growth of life.
Like as you, when you're a child
and you start perceiving things,
you're at the tip of the cone.
And then as you grow, your perception widens.
Therefore your reception of perception widens.
So you can actually picture the shape of your perception

(02:05:12):
as you age as a cone, an upside down party hat,
expanding into infinity.
And yours apparently is over your head as a funnel,
funneling and all these cool ideas and stuff.
That's a fantastic description of emotion art.
Thank you.
There you go.
Funnel cone.
Funnel cone.
Perception also sounds kind of delicious.

(02:05:35):
Okay, I want to ask you, I'm just going to cut you out.
I don't, whatever you were saying is not as important.
Please man, sidebar it up.
No, it's not a sidebar.
All that all about was sidebar.
Oh, right.
Cause I'm still stuck on the art thing.
Like because, okay.
Oh yeah.
And Carl, here's why.
Yeah.
You're a funny fucking guy.
Oh, see saw Adler see saw.

(02:05:59):
Careful man.
I'm better than you.
So I can praise you.
Okay, good.
See it's okay.
Equilibrium reached.
Someday we'll have a horizontal relationship.
But right now.
Hey guys.
I'll praise you.
That's fine.
We'll put it on like the third rung.
You have a type of humor.
I very much appreciate.
So it's something I notice a lot.
And I guess I asked because I'm just, okay.

(02:06:22):
So here's what I want to ask.
Have you ever thought about taking the shit
in your weird ass brain
and everything you described about the theater,
think about it, plan it, rehearse it,
and then make content put out on a global platform
that you can access at any time that you want

(02:06:44):
in any way that you want.
And the world is full of billions of people.
And we do that.
That's literally the thing we can do.
No matter what else is happening,
everybody has access to it.
Everybody can be platformed within five minutes
if they want to.
At least if you have a phone in your pocket.
It's all you need.
I haven't thought about doing that.

(02:07:05):
It has never crossed your mind.
No.
I mean in a real way.
Like, okay.
I mean, can I ask you for a favor?
Yeah, what's up?
Can you just think about it?
Yeah.
I would love. Please, let me do so.
I would subscribe to whatever the hell you put out.
I would love it.
And I would love to watch that progression.

(02:07:26):
I thought you meant think about the question
to see if I've ever thought about it.
Think about, oh no, you did not think that.
I did think that.
Okay.
Because I was gonna sleep on it
and then call you tomorrow and be like,
I actually do have a better answer now.
That question.
The think on it is a little longer term than that.
I'm saying- I understand now.
The world, the world is not terrible.

(02:07:46):
It means well.
I think the world deserves to see
whatever the fuck you would put out there.
I think the world deserves it.
I think it's ready.
You think so?
I think that kind of joy is something the world deserves
and I would love to see it.
So that's why I ask.
And you may never have an answer for it,
but you can never say I didn't plant the thought.

(02:08:09):
Well, no, it's good.
I get it.
And I've actually, I've preached to people like,
hey, what do you wanna do, what makes you happy?
And every moment of your waking life
should be devoted to that thing, right?
Yes. You know?
I have also preached that.
Always walk toward what you want.
But I've just been, I've been, I've been okay, cool.

(02:08:30):
So no one's actually challenged me before.
So thank you, Michael, to be like, hey man.
Oh, you may be misunderstanding what I'm doing.
So I think that you would love it.
I think it would be transformative for you personally,
but that's not why I'm asking.
It's because I wanna see it,
because I know that it would be fantastically entertaining.
And also, I am a member of a world that's starving for joy.

(02:08:55):
Huh.
And maybe I need to get out more.
We are front row witnesses to AI.
Yeah.
It's inevitable at this point.
One of these giant corporations
that's throwing all this money into it
is going to finally, somehow something's gonna coalesce.
We may not even know what happened.
Maybe it's happened already.
I don't know, I don't know.

(02:09:16):
But this is what AI is gonna be.
Gonna be the sum total of the entire content
of everything on every computer
that it is able to access and eat.
And that's what's going to form its personality.
Right, I mean, to adapt it.
If you wanna call it that,
we could just get into all the words and stuff.
And so one of, one of, one of the reasons

(02:09:36):
I'm doing this podcast.
Not acting, I mean, bring to action.
Yeah, you want to contribute to the overall knowledge
that the grand AI brain and being
that will eventually rule the earth,
their persona, you'll be a part of.
Close.
And if you don't contribute to that,
you're not gonna be a part of that future of humanity.

(02:09:57):
It doesn't feel like I won't be a part.
Everything you do that has,
makes one computer interact with another,
makes you a part.
You look up, you look up porn, you are a part.
Because that's an interaction that this future AI will eat
and it will become part of who it is.
Like this, like won't the AI eventually
just like take this conversation?
Exactly, that's one of the reasons

(02:10:18):
that I'm doing this podcast.
Cool, our work here is done.
When I open my eyes and look around me,
I see a joyful universe.
And I would like to do everything in my power
to make sure that when AI opens its virtual eyes,
it also sees a joyful universe.
And B, the world is full of people who deserve

(02:10:42):
to see a joyful universe when they open their eyes.
And so I want to just put out into the airwaves,
into the internet waves,
an idea that surrounding us is nothing scary.
It's just a joyful universe.
It's a love story.
I love this idea.

(02:11:04):
What are you worried about?
I have a learn, a learning moment here
because of that dispassionate log line
that I've lived with.
Yes.
Oh, accepting log line.
Thank you.
Accepting log line.
Or acceptance.
Acceptance log line.
There's kind of a laissez faire,
like the peripheries of this aura that is humanity,

(02:11:27):
just it doesn't really matter.
But you know what?
If we can point the era of motivation
and the personality when this AI opens its eyes
and we haven't contributed as much as we want,

(02:11:51):
then we're gonna be the only ones to blame
for being left out.
The childhood's end, Arthur C. Clarke.
Who's gonna blame anyone?
No one will know.
Only person that can blame you, Carl, is you yourself.
That's true.
Everyone else will try.
That's what I meant.
But in what world is this AI opening its eyes
and we're still around?

(02:12:11):
As one member of a hive of billions of units,
how could it possibly in any way be your responsibility
what happens when this AI, supposedly, whatever,
opens its eyes or whatever the fuck that is?
Because the truth is, that's already happening.
It's happening in this conversation itself.
In everything that every programmer does,
it's all just an inevitable movement

(02:12:32):
towards whatever's next.
That is true.
Call it AI, call it whatever you want.
Yeah.
Singularity.
How you feeling, man?
That felt so good.
I'm doing it.
Dude, thanks so much.
Sometimes.

(02:12:54):
The things, the communication that happens
in between the words is the fucking coolest.
Oh yeah, the pauses.
Okay, I have another question for you.
Do it.
Get more comfortable.
Suerte coffee.
Suerte water.
Suerte agua.
Que suerte.

(02:13:14):
Oh, what's coffee in espanol?
Cafe.
Suerte.
I can't roll my eye very well.
But I think if you said coffee,
they'd understand what you were talking about.
Suerte cafe.
Te gusta suerte cafe.
Me gusta.
Me gusta.
Okay.
Cool.

(02:13:34):
I'm gonna stop pretending like I know how to speak Spanish.
When I was five, yes.
You could pretend you knew how to speak Spanish
really well. I knew how to speak Spanish really well.
Oh.
Yeah, there's a couple people telling me
that knew me back then.
Supposedly, I spoke Spanish and English equally
because we literally lived in Mexico.
Oh, right on.
First, like we'd go down there and you know,
in the winter, travel south,
sometimes we'd end up in Mexico.

(02:13:54):
Mexico City.
Or Marotas.
Did you ever go back to Mexico?
I've never been. I cannot wait
to go back to Mexico is this enormous place
with every type of environment and openness
and people and culture and wild horse herds roaming

(02:14:15):
over the grassy mountains right outside the village.
Like there is so much beauty and huge metropolises
and everything in between and just the real,
the people, the real people that are just,
like in this country,
we don't realize in this country how bubbled everything is.
Everything, everyone has a personal bubble.
Everything's bubbled.
You step across these borders.

(02:14:36):
Now you're in the, you know, Canada and Europe and stuff.
And there is some decrease in that personal bubble,
but it is still, you're still in that Western world,
that bubbled up, hypoallergenic, prophylactic.
Everything's clean and sanitized and whatever.
And of course, yeah, but anyway,
most, the rest of the world embraces you,

(02:15:00):
embraces your senses.
Personal bubble, what?
Yeah, I've actually really liked that about other cultures
is just, plus I actually appreciate it when I meet someone
who doesn't seem to have a personal bubble.
And it actually helps in like the restaurant biz

(02:15:21):
and whatnot, when you have to have a conversation
with someone or you're sharing a really tight space
to operate, you always give people their space, of course.
But I do find it very refreshing when someone is like,
gets right in your face to talk about something.
Yes.
I think it's cool.
And I give people most of their space.

(02:15:44):
I always try to push it just enough to bring out
that little bit of uncomfortable
that brings out the real person.
Because all of a sudden you're like, wait, wait, wait.
And then the real person, the masks that you use
to tell everyone else who you want them to see kind of slip
and I am there to see it.
And it's so beautiful because what's underneath those masks

(02:16:06):
is always achingly beautiful.
Sure. So beautiful.
Even if the person with the masks believes the masks
have to be there because it's all hideous.
It's still all beautiful, all of it.
That's why I find a lot of benefit in being bratty.

(02:16:27):
I love being a brat, man.
Word.
As a brat or not a brat, as a human.
Human with no definition.
Every now and then some fun.
Yeah.
There's an imagined future where you find yourself
with the knowledge of your imminent death.
What are you gonna say to the world?

(02:16:48):
Dying words.
Dying words.
What are the words that would be the ones you'd wanna say?
What the?
You think that's what you'd say?
I hope so.
You'd quote a cheesy sort of horror movie.
Isn't that what that's from?
This is what's funny.
What movie is that?
There's a whole generation of people

(02:17:08):
that think its origin is from scary movies.
Yeah, yeah.
But scary movies are not scary movies.
Scary movie.
Oh, that's right.
Actually got it from something else.
What is the something else?
It's an old Budweiser commercial from the 90s.
Oh really?
Yeah.
Beer commercial.
Carl.
Quote me whether or not it's Budweiser or fact check.

(02:17:31):
But I'm pretty sure it's just one of those dumb
90s Budweiser commercials.
Carl.
All facts.
What the?
Yeah.
What the?
I'm gonna look up, because you know that's on YouTube.
Look it up.
Oh, of course I will.
I'm gonna look up and then Angela,
being the editor that Angela is,
she's gonna put it in the show now.
I hope so.
It is just gonna happen.
Just trust me, it will.
Why that?

(02:17:53):
The problem with trusting me is I'm a human
and so I am fallible so I could let you down.
But still trust me.
I have no expectation.
Fun.
So you're gonna stand by that.
That's gonna be the thing you say to the world.
I can't stand by it.
I just don't have anything.
In this moment.
Obviously when you get there,
everything's out the window.
But that's what you're imagining in this moment.
You'd actually, you'd be like.
I wish I had something profound to say, man.

(02:18:15):
But if you don't, that's the answer.
I don't.
What's up, it is.
What's up?
What's up?
Yeah.
What's up?
That's great.
Do you have anything else you wanna say right now?
Well, sometime I think it'd be really cool to sit down
and just do a, like maybe draw out a little bullet point

(02:18:38):
and do just a little piece on Dirt Road.
I think we should.
I really like Dirt Road.
I think I love Chuck's vision.
I love why he's doing it.
I've talked to him enough to do it.
And what I would like to do is I'd like to sit down
with Chuck.
Yeah.
I think he'd probably be open to that.
I don't know.
We'll see when that time comes.
Of course he would.
But he misses you guys.
Okay, so then why don't we sit down at Dirt Road

(02:18:59):
in a time when it's gonna be a little, you know,
pretty slow.
Yeah.
Rope in whoever the fuck we want.
Do like a little live, like almost treat it
like a live stream thing where whatever.
I think it's a brilliant idea.
Carl, I'm ready.
Let's set it up, man.
You tell me when you wanna do it.
I'm ready anytime.
I'll let you know.
It's gonna take a little bit of forethought.
A little.

(02:19:21):
Just a little bit, just because of practicality.
Logistics.
We don't want it to be a crazy busy time.
Probably not.
The date that when Angela and I just stopped in there,
that would have been.
I know.
Can you imagine if we had recorded,
if we had been recording.
Oh yeah.
Okay, so I'd like to just, if like,
if a time comes to you and you're like, hey,

(02:19:42):
we don't have much going on.
This is probably gonna be about that type of thing.
We'll set up a little thing.
Whatever you have, I'll bring, I'm mobile.
You say the word.
Let's do it.
Weekends are so busy for you,
so it has to be during the week.
I'm basically, it's gonna have to be a day off for me.
I may have to, we may have to plan ahead.
I may have to take a day off.
I would love to do that.

(02:20:03):
To just spotlight Dirt Road,
because I freaking love that place.
And most of the people that listen to this podcast
are in Corvallis, Philomath, Albany, and Portland.
So, I think that everyone who listens to this podcast
deserves to know how
otherworldly the Paradise Pig pizza tastes.

(02:20:26):
It's pretty good.
No, it's incredible.
It's pretty good.
Pulled pork.
Have you had the Royal Navy yet?
No.
I found Paradise Pig with extra pineapple
and extra cilantro.
Ooh, yeah, yeah.
Now you're talking.
I'm feeling a little hungry.
Are you hungry?

(02:20:47):
Oh, I'll bet you there's dinner up there at the house.
Oh, you're.
Shall we curtail operations
and go in search of some vittles?
Yeah, I have no idea what time it is.
I can look on here and see that we've been recording.
Guess how long we've been recording for.
I'm gonna say one hour and 52 minutes.

(02:21:11):
Two hours and 24 minutes.
Whoa!
Yes.
Dude.
One hour and 54 minutes may be a prophetic end result
after all the editing.
Dude, that's a long time.
I will say I did skip like two 15 minute chunks
of your conversation with Bonnie,

(02:21:32):
but like the last hour of it was great.
Yeah, that's fine.
I'll go back to it.
And it's just a story, it's a worldview.
I love it, it was great.
I think that Bonnie's gonna.
I was going around the house just doing chores
and while I was doing my thing,
I was just listening to the conversation and it was great.

(02:21:54):
Okay, and Bonnie's talking about being ready for round two,
which I'm super excited about.
Heck yeah.
Possibly with Barry or Angela or maybe both of them
co-hosting. Right on.
Like we're just, I don't know.
We'll see, we'll see, we'll see, but yeah.
Okay, Carl, thank you.
Thank you. My pleasure.
Thank you for your time.
Indeed, indeed my pleasure.

(02:22:16):
Thank you for inviting me on.
You know that I have nothing but fondness in my heart
for every one of you and your family's endeavors.
So to be a part of that in another instance,
I am grateful.
Above all, I am thankful for your openness,
that you're willing to sit down here
and to whatever extent, let the whoever you are come out.

(02:22:37):
And I don't think that's hard for you
because I think you do that most every day,
but I really, really fucking appreciate it.
I appreciate you.
I look forward to watching whatever the fuck
development happens as you step into your artistic acting,
whatever self.
And I say step in because you're obviously already there,
but I just appreciate you.
I look forward to future conversations and everything.

(02:22:58):
So thank you.
What's that?
What's that?
Let's go eat.
Let's do it.
wages

(02:24:36):
Thank you.

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