Ike: behind the stagelight (w/Marebear)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is emotion art. A place to put down all the bags, set down the weapons, to strip off all the pieces of armor,

(00:09):
in the sweaty, dirty clothes, to take off all the masks, to let down the hair, and just be yourself, myself.
To become, for a time, simply the emotions, the curiosity, whoever we are under all the stories, always interesting, always fun, always healing.

(00:37):
It's scary for most people to be vulnerable, but when you open everything up to the light and to the air, healing happens, joy happens.
Humans are emotion, and art is creation. Emotion art. If you listen to these conversations regularly, thank you, and you're welcome.

(00:58):
And just so you know, starting next week, we're going to adjust our release schedule to every other week.
The search for balance in all things continues, and we have a couple other projects that sound like a lot of fun,
and we want to put a little bit of our energy that way and see what comes out.
Shout out to Buddy Anderson on audio and music. Check out his music on Spotify at From Another Mista. Thanks for sharing your art, buddy.

(01:28):
And thank you to Mary from episode 9, who co-hosted this conversation with me. Thank you for letting me co-host with you, Mary.
I enjoyed doing this with you, and I really look forward to doing it again.
So, this is a conversation that Mary and I had with Ike, our 16-year-old son, brother, roommate, friend, artist, moral police.

(01:59):
Okay, that used to be a thing. Ike may have only been around for 16 years so far, but his EQ puts him closer to 40 or 50.
And yes, I'm biased. I like this kid a lot, and I particularly like having conversations with him. Enjoy.

(02:40):
This is everything we do. It wants to be art. Emotion art. Feel, feel, feel, feel. Emotion art. It's all beautiful.
It's all beautiful. Emotion art. A space for emotional art. Creative energy moving outward in conscious expression.
Emotion art. An emotion art gallery. This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this is emotion art.

(03:06):
See you. Welcome.
That's how I bless you while I live. I will lift up my hands in your name. My soul shall be satisfied. As with Mary and fatness, my mouth shall praise you.
Fatness?
Yeah, there's a lot of fat people, I guess, in a couple times.
What the heck?
I wish I would have started recording when you first started recording that El Bible.

(03:30):
Me too, actually.
I did get the last half.
Psalm 63.
Oh, we are recording now?
Yeah, accurate.
I mean, it would have been nice.
Wait, I can restart. I can restart. Ready?
Sheesh. What if I would have disclosed my biggest secret of all time?
What is, what, let's, let's find out. What is it?
I can't tell you right now.
Dang. Oh, this is so much better. Seriously, it's worth adjusting.
It's worth adjusting?
Yeah.
I don't know.

(03:51):
If you're a guy.
If I'm doing it.
Oh my God.
Yeah, I know. I'm saying your microphone and stuff.
Michael.
Son.
Benjamin.
Johnson.
McGregor.
Carver.
Sorry.
We have a witch in our midst.
How's everyone feel?
Comfy and cozy.
I think we're ready.
Me too.
Okay, so, well, anyways, you guys made me come here, so here I am.

(04:13):
That's true.
We did. Forcedfully.
Coerced me, actually.
Whoa.
We have plans for you.
I called CPS already, but.
Oh, I think we'll be able to get this done in time.
Oh boy.
For legal reasons, if any government officials are listening to this. This is not.
I literally work for the government.
I need to get a lawyer.
Not against your will.
You do need to get a lawyer.

(04:34):
What if I was just like, help, help.
Well, you're in luck.
Well, then.
I'm also a lawyer.
I want to be here.
That would be hilarious.
But you are here.
I'm surprised we don't have a lawyer friend in our entire group of friends.
It's because lawyers are not fun.
Well, dude.
It's kind of downers.
Well, dude, lawyers are people too.
All right.
People are people.
You got people.
Lawyers have a stereotype.
Probably not.

(04:55):
But they don't all fit it.
Yeah.
I mean, there's some good ones out there.
Word.
Just like doctors.
Yeah.
Hi, Ike.
Hi, Mary.
How are you today?
Hi, Padre.
Well, feeling rather under the weather.
Woke up today with quite a tickle in my throat.
Uh-oh.
It was not fun.
But then I got up and I chugged some water and I chugged some Dayquil.
I'm not sure what I'm talking about.

(05:18):
I'm not sure what I'm talking about.
But then I got up and I chugged some water and I chugged some Dayquil and went back to
my bed.
And I've been in bed and it's 2 30 now.
So I'm doing okay.
I'm just going to drink my tea.
Have some tea, by the way.
You guys that aren't sitting in this room with us.
Time to slurp.
I have a question for you.
Okay.

(05:39):
What's up?
What's up?
Do you enjoy being on a stage?
Ooh, this is a great question.
This is a great question.
I love this question.
Law.
Do I love being on a stage?
Okay.
I am an actor.
I've done six shows.
I started in middle school.
And I really enjoy it.
Sorry.
I kicked that thing.
Punish.
You're perfect.
I'm going to punish you anyway.

(06:00):
That was perfect.
All right.
Well, anyways, I was really interrupted.
He just corrected you.
You still think he's perfect?
Yeah, I love him.
Okay.
Acting.
Acting.
No, this is a great question.
I love acting.
I love acting.
I love acting.
I love acting.
I love acting.
I love acting.
I love acting.
I love acting.
I love acting.
This is a great bio.
I don't love anyone.

(06:21):
I never have.
I never will.
I was asking you if you like me on stage because you're just like, okay, first thing I want
to do is I want to talk to all of you out there who aren't in this room with us.
Yeah, exactly.
This is my onstage commentary.
But that would be breaking the fourth wall.
So that's the big no-no in the whole.
Yeah.

(06:41):
If you're going to do something.
Unless you're doing it well.
Exactly.
That's it.
Yeah, same brain.
I appreciate that you think like that.
Thank you.
that you do like being on stage.
It was actually a rhetorical question
that was meant to imply you love being on stage.
Yeah, it was like sarcasm.
I love it.
I love it a lot.
Free king.
Free king, I freaking love it.
I'm glad you know that.

(07:01):
I think you're pretty all right at it.
You think I'm pretty?
Yeah.
I think that you embody the characters
in a way that very few,
there are a couple of you guys on that stage
that embody in the way you do,
but it's not very many, it's so cool.
No, you're incredible, dude.
Actually incredible.
You wanna know what I do for the performance?
How now, brown cow.

(07:22):
No, I don't do that.
I do the whole like, like Sharpe Evans thing,
like, ma, ma, you know, whatever.
No, I don't, please keep going.
Have you guys never seen a High School Musical?
No, dude. I don't think I have.
I think that's a little younger than our-
Forever listening out there,
these people are a bunch of lunatics.
Thank you. Well, you were course to be here.
Oh my gosh.
And of course, dad, turning that into praise.

(07:43):
What, what, what, what?
Here we go. Okay.
Before every show, what I do is I imagine my childhood
as this character that I'm about to play.
I envelop myself into their memories and their life.
Whoa.
And for some reason, I always imagine like,

(08:04):
bathing myself, I guess, but-
As a child?
As a child, I don't know.
Like in a bathtub?
Yeah, cause like this past one,
I just said the Beauty and the Beast,
I was like a prince, right?
And so I was imagining like this nice,
really pristine porcelain tub.
With clothe.
Like, yeah.
And like there's like beautiful soaps
and I'm like just a little kid,
just getting myself scrubbed by some of my servants.

(08:26):
And I'm just like imagining like my father
taking me out to the town and like,
having me see all my lowers than me,
seeing all my potential future brides and whatnot.
I wanna live through their childhood to be that character.

(08:47):
You're like going to the foundation.
I was just saying that that's all with their characters,
made out of their memories.
You're adding depth. True.
You're not adding depth, you're creating all of it.
You're creating the character.
Creating all of what?
The entirety of the character.
Nothing based on the character is based on
what's happening around them currently,
but it's what past things have happened to them

(09:08):
will make them decide what to do.
That's really interesting.
He looks at it, not that he's playing a character,
but that he's creating a character out of a story he heard.
Like he doesn't look at it as playing a character,
but becoming a character.
Yeah, exactly. Is that method acting?
Did you make this process up
or did they teach you acting stuff at school?

(09:32):
Well, nobody taught me that,
but Hollywood actors or whatever,
definitely like travel to the characters' childhood home
or childhood town.
Oh, here's something I wanna talk about.
A lot of people always talk about
how they have this inner monologue, right?
And it's like a voice talking to you.
I don't have that voice in my head,
but it comes out in words.
What? Like visual?

(09:52):
Not visual, but like...
Feeling?
I'm imagining my brain reading it
and recognizing the words.
I know this is probably not gonna make sense to anyone.
Somebody out there is gonna understand.
Somebody out there is gonna have the exact same thing
and be like, oh my gosh, yes.
Yeah, and it's gonna be like, whoa, him too?
It's like in a comic book,
the thought bubbles or the speech bubbles.
Okay, okay.

(10:12):
But then, but that's like happening.
It's not auditory or visual.
It's just happening and I'm like absorbing it.
It's like there's a imaginary speech bubble
that contains the essence of what it's trying to express.
Yes.
That is complex.
Isn't it?
Yeah, that's really cool.

(10:33):
I think of it as a ticker tape.
For some reason, I imagine the stock exchange
with a stream of news running across the bottom
and I'm just, that's kind of what...
Street of nudes?
Oh my God.
Vulgar little...
It's a different Wall Street.
No.
Oh my God.
Nudes on the NASDAQ.
But it's a endless and infinite commentary

(10:56):
on everything that's happening,
everything that's happening to my senses.
But sometimes I feel like I hear it.
I never feel like I read,
but I still visualize it as a tape.
So it's beyond all of the senses.
Oh yeah, I entirely agree.
But you see it as a cartoon,
like speech or a thought bubble.
That's hilarious.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(11:17):
That's awesome.
I just went full circle back to Charlie Brown.
So what do you...
I mean, you're all acting all the time so far.
What do you want?
I mean, do you have plans with it?
Till I act in the future?
I don't know.
Where do you see it going?
I don't know.
I feel like it's just something I can enjoy right now.
Getting into it, as an adult,

(11:39):
it usually doesn't go anywhere.
Not with that attitude.
Well, do you think about the future?
Do you have plans or dreams?
How formed is that inside you?
I feel like I haven't thought about it deeply enough.
And really, my current plan is
if I can't figure anything out, I'll just enlist.
Oh.

(11:59):
I had a visceral reaction to that just now.
A judgment reaction?
No.
Like fear.
Fear.
Well, what's gonna happen?
Dad's okay.
He was in the Army National Guard.
Your dad has a different brain than I do.
Well, he means I enlisted and I'm still okay.
Oh, I thought he meant like he's fine.
Can someone pull up the percentage of soldiers

(12:20):
that die or whatever?
I'm not worried about your dad.
About 75%.
You guys are assuming.
Yes, Mary.
My fear wasn't connected to you dying.
Wait, what was it?
The AI?
No, I mean, I could totally see you in there.
I could see you doing a lot of things, dude.
You're versatile.
You literally can do anything.
You sound like Shakira.

(12:42):
Tra-A-N-E-P.
I don't know.
Ooh, would you ever do voice acting?
Because that has been a dream of mine since I was a child.
You'd be a great voice actor.
I feel like my voice is not unique enough.
What?
No, it wasn't unique enough.
Like what character embodies this voice?
Like when we talk, we'll like talk in accents together.
That's what I mean.
That's true, that's true.
Have you seen the movie, the documentary, Jim and Andy?

(13:06):
No.
Please watch it.
It answers that fear that something about me
is not unique enough.
Ooh, I need to re-watch it.
We watched it twice in a row.
I know, and I fell asleep.
And it's about, it's a documentary on the making of the,
what is the movie called?
Man, Man on the Moon?
Man on the Moon.
Yep.

(13:27):
So it's the backstory and it's spooky.
It's incredible, but it really tells the story of Jim Carrey
and how he became who he is.
Yeah.
I mean, it's so raw.
It's unlike any other documentary I've ever seen.
But the whole point of it is he realized people
just wanted originality.
They just wanted him to be him,

(13:48):
him to be his weird, goofy ass self.
And number two, people wanted themselves
to feel free from trouble, like carefree.
Like who cares?
The devil may care.
And so he developed this whole character
that's just complete asshole flippant,
doesn't care about anything except-
Oh, is that the Andy Zimmerman or whatever?
Well, it's Jim Carrey's character,

(14:11):
but it's also the same type of character
that Andy Kaufman was.
Andy Kaufman, right.
I do need to re-watch it
because I watched the beginning with you guys,
but I was very sleepy that day.
So I think I like, got all warm and cozy and fell asleep.
You got to follow up close.
Yeah, exactly.
I saw it happen that morning.
Were you in the living room that day too?
I was.
The kittens were sleeping on me.
And then I was like, I live here now.

(14:31):
But the movie, when Jim Carrey was doing things
and like people were getting pissed off,
he legitimately caused people to want to fist fight him
and attempt to fist fight him.
It was intense.
He got messy.
It's part of the artistic process, right?
Kind of like you were talking about.
His anyway.
Yeah, his artistic process.

(14:53):
Not everyone's as messy as that boy got.
I guess I don't understand how people thought
he was being an asshole because I feel like to be an asshole
is like to intentionally want to hurt.
Oh, just like when the directors like hated him
because he was so exactly like Andy Kaufman.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, he was a complete, he turned into a different person.

(15:15):
He embodied Andy Kaufman who his art came through
this complete rawness, but he was,
he had some very distinct traumas
that came out through that rawness.
He was a difficult person to be around
from what I saw in that documentary.
I've not yet seen Man on the Moon
and I look forward to seeing it.
I just have to get enough people to want to see it

(15:36):
to actually get some screen time.
Watched by yourself?
To get some screen time.
Yeah, with what time?
Right.
So somebody who didn't know you asked you who you are.
What would you say?
It was loaded.
Everything's loaded.
Like a big potato.
Life is loaded.
Yeah.
I'm just curious what you'd say.

(15:57):
Who are you?
Who are you?
Who, who?
Okay, I'm gonna imagine it, I'm gonna imagine it,
not in that way, I'm gonna imagine it in a way.
Perfect.
I'm getting interviewed, right?
Mm-hmm.
And these people don't know me.
Mm-hmm.
And they're asking, what are you like?
That's what I do.
So Ike, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Who are you?
What are you like?
Well, Tom and Trisha, I'm like a nice guy, I think.

(16:19):
Aw.
Even though I'm giving my dad a lot of trouble,
but that's because it's really funny
and makes my dopamine skyrocket.
Yeah.
Elevated over here, folks.
Nobody's elevated, it's against the law.
So you're a nice guy.
And I like to be happy.
And actually, we were just learning about this
in my healthy relationships class the other day.

(16:43):
It's the personality types.
And there was the, is the DISC,
you probably know about that, cause you're like a-
The disc?
Yeah, the disc personality type things.
Uh-uh.
I know, don't you like work with people?
I've taken that.
I don't work with people.
But you learn something new every day, so hit me with it.
So the D is like the, the leaders.
Like gotta get stuff done.

(17:04):
And they're very assertive and whatever.
And the S is the really kind, like the exact opposite,
they're really kind and like submissive.
I want to help you.
I just wanna be your friend.
I just wanna be nice to you, and I'll be loyal to you.
And the C is the really logical,
I have to get this done at this time.

(17:27):
Like rigid?
Yeah, they described it in animals.
It was like the D is the lion, the S is the golden retriever, the C is the beaver, and
then I, the last one, is the otter, the one that likes to have fun.
And it's just like, otters like wants to have fun and wants to be laid back and likes to
like avoid conflict and really doesn't think things through.

(17:48):
Apparently they like, when they're pushed to conflict, they like do verbal attacks on the
other person.
Like, and also everyone's like a really big, like a mix of this, but I feel like I'm like
very much that eye character.
I feel like, I feel like the teacher that taught it was teaching us that really did
not like, like that one the least.
Well, that sounds like the best one to me too.
Sweet but reckless.
Like the other ones like the lions would be like, the D's would be like the political

(18:11):
leaders and like the big shots and then the beavers would be like the doctors, whatever
the C's would be like the doctors and people who like get stuff right.
The golden retrievers are like the people, people that like are going to give everyone
like strength and be like nice to them.
And it'd be like the child care and the hospitality workers.
And then the eyes is like the freeloader.

(18:34):
I'm kidding.
Yeah, you like, no, yeah, really actually she's like more prone to peer pressure, drug
abuse, always manipulative and lying and lying.
Wow.
And like they enjoy having fun.
That's the only good trait I can remember.
I think that otters would be really offended by that.
I was, but I pretended like I wasn't.

(18:55):
I threw it off as like, oh my gosh, this is hilarious that she hates this one the most.
And then, but then like, and I was like, like, why is this one the worst one?
Why do any of them have to be bad or good?
Why can't they just be what is?
Well, they are as interpreted by the person speaking and she probably had a relationship
that burned her with somebody who was like that.
It's interesting that teachers are shaping and sculpting these young minds and are able

(19:20):
to just give out subjective information.
Well, I mean, how could they not?
They're human.
I don't know.
I feel like you could, I mean, yeah, you can't be perfect.
You can't be objective all the time, but I feel like you could work really hard to be
mindful about it so that then the young minds that you're teaching don't walk away believing
the same thing you're saying.
And probably some people work a lot harder than others.

(19:41):
Yeah, totally.
We definitely have a school system that it could be better.
Well, I think it's cool that you have a healthy, you said healthy relationships class.
And she's like, we didn't have anything like that growing up.
Yeah.
This teacher is a really great teacher, by the way, amazing teacher.
She really like knows how to teach us well.
That's awesome.

(20:02):
I also, I also probably just like leaned into this too hard because I really like, wow, this
is like my personality, like labeled myself immediately.
What about you can say somebody just is around for the fun or you could be like, they also
want other people to have fun, which is a type of leadership really, you know,

(20:23):
A leadership with high eyes and of course I'm biased, but it's the best kind of leader.
Right.
Right.
Did they teach you about boundaries in that class?
Yeah.
They also taught us about boundaries all through sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth grade.
They did?
Gosh, that's so cool.
Yeah.
Isn't it?
We had, we had sex ed sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth grade.

(20:44):
They taught boundaries through sex ed.
Yeah.
Boundaries is a part of health because like mental health is like half of your health.
Cool.
Yeah.
How would you sum up your understanding of the term boundaries from your teaching education?
Yes.
Like an action someone could do to you that you prefer that they didn't and that you trust

(21:10):
them to like not do.
I feel like that's the simplest way I can describe a boundary.
It's not very, not very intuitive, but that's exactly what I think it is.
Okay.
Is something that an action that you don't want someone to do.
Okay.
Like if you have a boundary, I know it's not like a very, a very complex answer.
No, no, no.

(21:31):
I'm just trying to understand.
I'm trying to understand that.
Like what the emotional images that the words are about something someone else is doing
to you.
Like say you, say you value honesty in your relationship and you're like, Hey, like I

(21:53):
prefer it for you to be honest with me.
And this person like is constantly breaking their honesty.
I feel like that would be them also breaking that boundary because that's what they're
doing.
So that's an example of a broken boundary.
So in that case, the boundary feels like it is a way that you want to be treated by somebody
else.
Yeah.
And so when the person breaks it, okay.

(22:15):
Yeah.
See, very simple.
It's not, it's not, I'm still not fully wrapping my mind around what you're saying.
So, but that's okay.
Like the mom says, Hey, don't take cookies from that jar.
And the kid takes cookies in the jar.
And mom's like, you, what the heck?
You just broke that boundary.
I didn't want you to take-
That's like a rule though.

(22:35):
I just had the same thought.
No, I'm actually, I'm not trying to frustrate you.
I'm actually trying to understand something that I'm cannot quite understand.
Because I feel like now I'm starting to feel like you're describing rules instead of boundaries.
Like what I see as a personal boundary is it is something that I'm not willing to do
or I'm not willing to experience.

(22:55):
And so-
Oh, I was thinking-
A boundary doesn't have anything to do with this person.
It just has to do with me.
That's my perspective.
But I'm not trying to understand my perspective.
I'm trying to understand kind of a nutshell of what the, what these classes teach.
Because everyone's going to have different words.
It doesn't mean it's wrong.
It could be completely different and still not be wrong.
Everyone has different words, but I'm not trying to frustrate you.

(23:17):
I'm just trying to understand.
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
I don't know after I was saying-
Okay.
So I have another question for you then.
Because I know who you are.
Do you?
I've watched you grow up.
I don't know who you are from the inside.
Not inside your control center, experiencing all your screens and analytics.

(23:39):
But you know who I am.
I get you.
I've seen you grow up.
I've seen, I know how cool you are.
How about that?
So cool.
You're a cool guy.
Yes.
But I don't know what it was like for you to experience all of the cycles that have brought
you to where you are.

(24:00):
So what I'm curious about is-
Brief summary of Isaac Jacob Avery.
That's your middle name, Jacob.
What's your earliest memory?
My earliest memory?
I know it.
I've stopped my head.
My earliest memory, there's two.
One of them is a dream.
Sitting by, you know, in our old house, we had that wood stove.
It was like pitch black except for the wood stove.

(24:21):
And just like I was sitting next to it or like laying down next to it and I can just
see the red orange hearth.
That's the first one.
And then the second one is this really creepy dream I had about, you know that corner where
the farmer's market's on?
Where you first go in.
So imagine you go in, walk like 300 feet and then turn around.

(24:43):
And you see that's where you're looking.
And I was imagining it was, I was dreaming it was really gray.
And I was like sitting on like a galo- standing on a gallows and there was like a crowd in
front of me.
And those are my two earliest memories.
Whoa.
Do you know any concept of how old you were?
Maybe like three.

(25:06):
Were you on the gallows?
Yeah.
Whoa, dude.
Wow.
Yeah, I was standing on the gallows and there was like two guys next to me.
They were like really big.
Any idea where that dream came from?
No, literally no clue.
That's the only thing, because that's the only thing I remember about that life.
But it felt scary.
It didn't feel scary.
This is something interesting.
I feel like a lot of people are going to relate to this too.

(25:30):
Sometimes like the dreams you have, they don't feel scary or creepy or anything.
It's just like unsettling in some kind of way that is somehow a little bit comfortable.
Thinking back on that dream, it's unsettling, definitely.
Because like people were also really weird looking.

(25:52):
They had like animals faces for faces.
It was really not a cool sight.
Like if I was actually in that scenario, of course I'd be like shit in my pants.
Pooping my pants.
We allow cussing on this show.
It's like a medical.
I mean kind of anything.
I have never made a rule yet.
Do you have any rules we should know about, Mary?

(26:15):
Yeah, I'll tell you at midnight.
What if I break any?
Off to the gallows.
So you have one memory that's warm and cozy in front of a fire.
It's not that it's scary.
It's like when I was in the dream and imagining it, it felt like something important.
It felt like I'm sitting here and I'm on these gallows and there's the rope right there.

(26:38):
And there's this big crowd in front of me and it's overcast and gray and it's not the
farmer's market.
It's just a street corner.
And I'm standing there and it's just like, I'm important.
I was thinking to myself, I'm important enough that I am here with all these people in front

(26:58):
of me.
That I'm going to do something and I am important.
And then the other one is just like a random, I'm sitting next to the fire.
Just nuts roasting on an open fire.
Jack Frost.
If any of you didn't know, I'm actually also a very talented singer.
You will not have all this freedom.

(27:20):
Okay, I'm sorry.
Anyways, that's what I'd say.
That dream is probably going to be number one, earliest memory for me.
Would you say that you were a joyful child?
I'd say that I was a joyful child.
A joyful child that also I've made rules for myself and was a little bit afraid.

(27:40):
I was afraid that I'd be like a bad person.
And that I'd disappoint mom or dad or someone who'd hate me.
I still very much have that mindset, but I'm able to talk about it.
And I'm just like, no, I was perfect.
I was very much a perfectionist child, I'd say.

(28:01):
In my mind, at least I was.
I know, I probably.
Yeah, you always did everything well.
I always did it well.
I always had to do it well and I didn't do it wrong.
That was just the way you preferred to do things?
Yeah, it's correct.
Or is that part of the fear?
Yeah, no, I was afraid to do it wrong.
I still am.
I still am very afraid.
Where do you think that came from?

(28:23):
From the gut, with no thought for...
Where did that come from?
I'm your dad.
Right.
And I'm your dad's dad.
Sorry.
Go ahead, Michael.
We're the best.
From your gut.
Yeah, I'm just saying you're not going to hurt my feelings.
I understand.
I'm really aware.
Oh my gosh.
It was not you though.
Oh really?

(28:44):
I would have assumed it was.
That's what I was fishing for.
I know that's what you were fishing for.
You were like, Dad, you inset all those principles on me.
You're such a stubborn child.
You know what?
I like catching things and if you don't fish for something, it's really hard to catch anything.
I don't care what I catch though.
You definitely put a lot of stuff in my head.
You definitely morphed and molded my life a lot, but not in that way.

(29:09):
As a parent does.
Intentionally or unintentionally.
I think that was for my brothers.
I felt like I had to do it right or else something would happen to them.
I felt like I needed to parent them.
I felt like I needed to control them.
Oh, because you were the oldest.
Did you feel like their protector?

(29:30):
Yes, I very much felt like that.
I would have at any age and now I would have fist fought anyone for my brothers.
I had to make sure that they knew that.
If you ask any of them, I was like, what's that guy talking about?
Do you need to step over there?
This is a real life thing that happened?

(29:51):
I never actually beat anyone up because they never got in trouble with any of the other
kids because we were just hung out with each other.
They all just fought each other and I didn't have to step in.
The boys fought each other?
We all fought each other.
I was going to say I'm the youngest and so I think some of my siblings felt the need
to protect me too.

(30:11):
My brother, as I say, he would threaten to beat people up, but then he would also beat
me up.
That's exactly it.
That's so crazy.
That sounds like a line from your play.
Oh, what is it?
It wasn't you though.
What does Gaston say?
Oh crap, am I crossing wires here?
Somebody said nobody gets to hurt.

(30:34):
Nobody gets, oh, it's from Wednesday.
Nobody gets to beat him.
This is my emotional wires crossing.
It's okay.
It reminds me of that.
Nobody gets to beat my brother up but me.
Wow, I had to get to that one the long way.
You got there though.
The long way.
It's okay.

(30:54):
Sheesh.
I knew that I loved my brothers forever.
There were points in my life where I was like, my gosh, he's blowing the literal fuck out
of me.
There will be more points in your life.
There have been and will be more.
I'm aware of this.
But then I always like, I would do anything for this kid even if he messed up so bad.

(31:20):
I would want to be on his side.
I will say sorry, Michael.
I forgive you.
From the outside.
I'm from the outside.
Yes, you are.
The outsiders.
You are a very kind older brother.
Thank you.
The way that your other brothers look up to you is really sweet to watch.

(31:42):
You miss 10 year old me.
Were you not nice?
I was just a lot more controlling of them.
You've evolved, dude.
That's what we do.
I have evolved.
Anyways, continue.
Anyway.
Continue.
Because having four younger brothers would be a lot.
And I don't ever see you, I mean, I don't live here, but like you're never unkind.

(32:04):
You seem to have like a sweet quietness in the way you lead them.
That's what I see.
Like, you're not bossy.
You might have, maybe you were before.
But I don't see that now.
I see you just like leading them by example, I guess.
This is something that instilled in me is to not be bossy to them is because I was always

(32:28):
so bossy to them.
And this is a good I'm grateful for this, by the way.
I was always so bossy.
Then I was like, stop doing that.
Why are you doing that?
Like there's a very common phrase in our household.
And that is like, I just mind your own business, dude.
I really appreciate that perspective because you also learned that bossiness from me because
that's how I used to be.

(32:50):
Yeah.
You told me that I need to I need to live my own life and I don't need to live theirs.
And it is very helpful.
And I definitely disappeared from them for years.
I didn't talk to them.
I like just I just let them be.
Yes.
And then they're all how who they are right now.
And I don't know who they are.

(33:11):
You don't know?
I don't.
I don't.
And it's and I mean, I mean, like I missed part of their life.
I was just gone.
I just I just left the house and I just didn't want to.
I just wasn't here.
Does it feel like that's changing?
No.
How do you feel about where you find yourself right now with them?
I wish I was closer to them, but I also I still love them and I'm still going to love

(33:34):
them.
And it doesn't matter if they doesn't matter what the conditions doesn't matter.
The conditions doesn't matter if they aren't very close to me or kind of distant towards
me.
I'm always going to feel the closest connection when I see one of their faces.
I'm always going to be like, I was going to think back.
I was like going back to the whole like remembering the childhood of the actors.
I was going to be remembering my childhood and like being like, oh, my gosh, this person.

(33:58):
I learned so much from this person.
So the way you describe your brothers sounds a lot to me like you're describing unconditional
love.
They're the person they're there.
Those four are the people I unconditionally the probably the one of the only people I
unconditionally love.
Yeah.
That's so sweet.

(34:19):
Do you feel like you see yourself in the same way?
Do I love myself?
Do you see yourself with as much unconditional love as you see your brothers?
That's tough.
Or do you treat yourself that way?
I don't know.
I feel like I do.
I feel like there are definitely points in my life where I'm saying, oh, my gosh, you
need to be better.
You need to be like better than that.

(34:40):
Like obviously.
But then I also have times where I'm able to sit with myself and be like, I got like
there have been times when I've been in such a dark, dark, terrible place.
And it's like one in the morning and I like I'm not asleep or whatever.
And I'm just like, like sitting in a mirror, sitting in a mirror.
I'm like, I look up to myself and I can like stare at my eyes.

(35:04):
And I just like over and over to myself.
I love you.
And I just had to do that so that I could fix myself.
And it's I've done that multiple times.
Like sit, sat and just stare at the mirror crying, like being like, God, you're so beautiful.
I'm going to steal that for me.

(35:25):
Do you how how old were you when you first remember kind of just starting to do something
like that, like starting to step into that type of self-healing?
When I was eight years old, I looked in this mirror.
It's the mirror that you have at this in mom's room.
Yeah.
You know, you're in time.
Looks like it's made out of beechwood.
I looked in that mirror and I saw myself and I was looking at my features and I was like,

(35:48):
it's interesting to see this because I'm not looking at someone else.
I'm looking at the flesh that embodies the soul.
And I was like, I may not like it all the time.
I mean, I like what I do all the time, but I am content and I'm happy.
OK, that is a huge dose of self-awareness for an eight year old.

(36:12):
Can you break your life up into stages like like stages of feeling?
OK, so so don't really remember a whole lot.
Zero to six.
Don't remember too much.
Six to eight.
I felt very free.
I felt like a very free person.
And I was like.
Kind of kind of how I want to be.

(36:34):
As I was thinking, I want to be now.
I want to be now.
I was thinking to myself.
I just I just need to let this happen.
And then eight to about twelve ish.
I was thinking to myself, I need I need to develop.
I need to develop.
I need to experience.

(36:54):
I guess that's also I also carry that through now, but it's a it was a different thing.
It was more like I need to develop myself and develop my brain and.
Learn.
I want to learn eight to twelve.
So it sounds like.
Was it partially a desire to learn and partially a fear that you weren't good enough that you

(37:18):
needed to get better or at this part, I didn't feel like I was comparing myself to anyone.
And at any point in my life when I needed to feel like I needed to be better, it was
when I was comparing myself.
You just felt like you needed to do better.
Something else.
I was just like I was thinking my brain.
I need to learn.
I need to.
I because I want to be good.

(37:38):
It's not that I need to be better than the X better than lie, but.
But all this to be good.
So far all the conditions, I mean, this is all in the same house.
Right.
All the same house.
When you were.
Six your memories sort of come online when you're eight, you start but six to eight feels

(37:59):
very free when you're eight, you start to say, OK, I need to start getting my shit together.
I wouldn't even say like I need to get my shit together.
It's just like I want to like know what this life's about.
I see.
I have to learn.
So did it feel like you like curiosity?
Yes, it did.
I felt very much like a curious person.

(38:19):
OK, so you started becoming curious around eight.
Right.
And then I'm like 12 to like 13 and shows like what did it feel like?
It just it felt like kind of like impending doom or probably more like 11 to 13.
I felt like like impending doom.
I was like.
So I'm just going to happen.

(38:41):
And then I was right.
And then 13 to now I'm 16 years old.
I've shifted into this adult mindset.
And in this adult mindset, I've had so many tiny impossible changes.
I'm a completely different person than I was when I was 13.
Right.
But I was three years ago.

(39:01):
I know.
I think about I'm insanely different.
Yeah, it's wild how much we develop in between those two ages.
I know.
Anyway, I'm so much.
So you had this feeling of impending doom and then something happened.
Something happened.
I remember it very vividly.
OK, so then what happened?
What happened to bring on the next phase?

(39:22):
So this is the phase of the whole derealization.
Started when you were around 13.
OK, I remember I'm on Friday the 13th.
No.
Oh, it's not.
It's in the fall.
OK, and I was standing outside and this is the first time I noticed it.
I'm sure it had been happening for a bit, at least before.

(39:44):
This is the first time I noticed it.
And I was standing outside my school.
I'm in middle school right now and I was standing outside.
I was looking at the leaves falling.
I was like, I was thinking like, none of this is tangible.
I can't prove any of this.
I can't fully prove to myself.
Just my emotions, yes, all of this is completely here.

(40:07):
And then I'm going to do a couple tiny micro ones from the 13th, 16th.
Is the fear super a lot of like fear.
Probably 13 to 15 is extreme fear.
And then like 15 or 14, actually, probably 14, 14 and a half.

(40:29):
I was like, I faced it and I was like, I have to break this.
I have to fix this.
And so that's when stuff really started going bad.
I started to be like, something's wrong with me.
I got depressed, whatever, for that little bit.

(40:51):
Also think it's really gross that I was prescribed Prozac so fast.
I didn't need that.
I remember you saying it felt helpful to you at the time.
Did it provide any benefit in hindsight?
No.
No.
It just numbed me more and just like sped up the numbing of the behind the eyes.

(41:17):
How long did you take it for?
I was on it for a couple months.
I think it was like four months.
And it felt like it sped everything up?
Yeah.
Those four months felt like two weeks, maybe.
Like it gave you a feeling of losing time?
Like time was going by that you were not conscious of?

(41:37):
It sped up the feeling of losing time.
Oh, because you already had that.
When you have the derealization, it's called DPDDR, depersonalization, derealization.
It's also called dissociation.
There's a whole other part of it is dissociation.
Because you go into these long periods of time where you are just going through the

(41:59):
motions and you're not thinking about anything.
And it's like, obviously everyone's like, well, I'll go through the motions the whole
day.
Right?
But it's not like you're just doing your schedule.
But it's that you're not there.
You're actually checked out.
You're completely checked out.
I've had whole half years of my life that I was just like, I didn't even think a single

(42:25):
time.
It didn't even feel like any amount of time.
Like this 13 to 16 has not felt anything close to what three years should be.
And you said you felt like Prozac actually exacerbated that.
Prozac speeded that up.
Just for that was four months.
So the 13 to 14-ish was like the fear.

(42:46):
I was like, oh my god, this is bad.
I need to like, what's going on?
And then I was like trying to figure it out.
And then the 15 to 16 is I'm trying to help it.
I'm trying to, I was trying to like, be like, okay, how am I going to be able to be happy?

(43:07):
How am I going to be able?
Because if you're not living your life, you're not happy living it.
Right?
The only time that you're actually present is when you're alone and you're just sitting
there like, what did I do all day?
What have I done?
What have I done on month?
What have I done all summer?
Where have I been?
Which with what you were describing of your personality of when you were eight, starting

(43:30):
to be like, I need to, you know, start learning all this stuff out of curiosity.
And then you said that's still with you today.
Right.
I still want to, I still want to learn.
And so now you're sitting in this place where you're losing time, not knowing what's going
on and you're feeling like you're not doing this learning thing that you really want to
be doing.

(43:51):
That's what I'm hearing.
Does that feel?
I feel that feels okay.
Yeah.
I still very much want to be a curious person, but it's so much more difficult now that it's,
now that everything is just, I'm losing everything.
So you feel like you're still like, or you're still experiencing derealization.
I'm constantly experiencing derealization.

(44:12):
I've never, there hasn't been a time since I was like, like a little, like it's like
11, like 12 where I haven't, where I've been for more than like a minute.
What totally present in here.
The only difference now versus when it was really bad is now I'm able to, I'm able to

(44:35):
tell myself that it's going to be okay.
And this is something I can work with and this is something I can do.
And it's very, it's helpful for some things.
It's like, if you want to like talk to someone you don't really like, you can just like talk
to them and you don't really need to think about it.
Or if you, it goes also into acting.

(44:56):
Like if you want to act, then if there's like nothing really there, you can just put whatever
you want there.
It's definitely helpful in some ways, but it also is very like depressing.
I don't know.
It's just something about it is so like spiraling into, into infinite darkness.
And in all of that, you're talking about the actual derealization.

(45:18):
Yes.
It can be very helpful in times for acting and stuff, but then it has this really dark
element.
It's, it's, yeah, it can be helpful for some few things, but for most things it's just,
it just makes it harder.
Yeah.
And I feel like the reason that I've, I've, I've tried numerous times proving to myself
that this is just something that like everyone like is dealing with.

(45:40):
But the reason I know that it's not is because people would talk about it.
Yes.
There was this one night when I was sitting outside and like, I was trying to talk to
you guys about it and you're just comparing it to like times when you've been, and I was
like, it's so different than that.
Yeah.
It's like a natural apparent thing where it's like, Oh, I understand exactly what that's

(46:00):
like and here's how you fix it.
Ah, so I didn't, I was, I was, it was terrible.
Yeah.
I remember the day that I came awake to how, what a toxic communication style that was
for somebody that is trying to talk about something that hurts inside them.
And then you're telling them how to fix it.

(46:21):
I never knew before that, that was where I learned you can't don't stop trying to fix
it.
I've learned many things from you when you're just finally come to the end of your rope
and you're like, dad, I don't even want to talk to you right now.
There have definitely been days when I'm like, I like just like talk to whoever I'm like,
Oh my God, my dad is being a total dick right now.

(46:44):
And I've appreciated that mirror.
Cause you get some sick pleasure out of it.
No, I appreciate being able to see that that's how it looks from your eyes.
Yeah.
That's the mirror.
You're a mirror.
Accurate.
Mirrors are interesting.
I mean, thank you.
Anyways, mirrors are interesting things.
They are.
I am, I really like mirrors.
I think mirrors are cool.

(47:05):
Are we talking about literal mirrors or still metaphorical mirrors?
I'm not talking about metaphors right now.
I literally love mirrors.
Like not just because like, Oh, I love how it looks, but also because I'm able to see
how I, my face like reacts to something.

(47:25):
And it's like, Ooh, this is interesting.
Why is it interesting to see how your face reacts to something?
I don't know.
Cause I feel like I always, I always like imagine nothing.
I always imagine you guys are just like talking to my eyes.
Oh, you're imagining what I know I have a face right now and you guys are totally like,

(47:49):
it's really interesting to try to imagine what my face is looking like right now while
doing this whole interview.
Cause I'm imagining like, Oh, he's like smiling and making that weird face that he's doing
right now.
His hair is covering his eyes.
I've been thinking about your hair covering your eyes for quite a few minutes now.
To see me.

(48:09):
Cause I don't think they'd understand.
Um, yeah.
I love that song.
Nailed it.
When we sat down and we started talking and I was like, wow, I didn't realize how long

(48:33):
his hair is in front of his eyes.
And then I was like, I wonder if he likes like their being in an obstruction in his
vision.
I wonder if you, if you just like that or it's mostly cause they don't like my forehead
exposed and it looks bad if I just have like a bull cut right there.

(48:55):
So that's it.
It's I mean, I just get used to the tear in the hair and eyes.
And I guess I don't, I don't realize it.
It's kind of nice to like have something to like kind of like dampen it.
Like like lights, not so bright, you know, what was that?
I have a theory.
I wonder if a lot of the things you do are for the sense of being alive that they give

(49:20):
you.
Anything that triggers your sensory like hair in your eyes or mirrors or standing in front
of a mirror or preening or looking in the mirror or that all of these things are all
touch points.
There are all sensory points for you to feel something that at least approaches proof that

(49:42):
you're, that you exist.
This I feel like is very accurate.
And I just didn't like, I wasn't really thinking about it when you were first saying that,
but this is very much accurate.
I, and this is also like, well, I've been doing sports like in these couple of years,
I've been doing sports.
It's for that sense of like adrenaline of like, oh my gosh, I'm alive.

(50:05):
It's like, I'm doing this and it's alive.
It's living.
What about performing?
Performing is also very much the same thing is I'm up on that stage and everyone's watching
me and I'm alive.
This is what I was meant to do.
And also the whole performing thing in that, in my head, I was tying that, I'm also tying
that back to the whole, the gallows is I'm not there in that dream.

(50:25):
I wasn't there because I did some terrible thing.
I wasn't there because it's been terrible thing.
I was there because I am a performer and I'm important.
And I, I realized that in this interview, a lot of the stuff I've said sounds very narcissistic
and I know you're, you're someone, some might disagree, but I feel like definitely some

(50:48):
of it has sounded quite narcissistic.
And I don't think I'm a narcissist because I definitely care about other people.
Well, if you were a narcissist, you wouldn't be questioning whether or not you're a narcissist.
All right.
Yeah, obviously I've definitely questioned many times if I'm a narcissist and I've been
like, my narcissist, but I don't think the way of the human, I truly don't think that

(51:09):
I'm a narcissist.
And I just think that in, in that dream, in that point in time, something is trying to
tell me or maybe just myself was trying to tell me that you matter and you're, you are
important now, like, not like you matter in the whole, like we're all unique kind of way.
But like, what part, what part do you think the gallows played?

(51:32):
My dreams are always just unsettling.
I don't know.
It just had to be unsettling.
I had like, I had like a year spell where the only thing I would dream about was like
holes with bugs filled in them.
Wow.
Dude, your subconscious brought you a dark landscape with gallows in it to, to give you
the message you're going to be fine.
Yes, it totally did.
That is incredible.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.

(51:52):
I love that.
I've never known how to describe that dream, how that, how it feels in my, in my heart
because everyone's always like, that sounds scary.
And I'm always like, I mean, yeah, I guess, but it's like, you're not, you're like, it's,
it's my subconscious is way of telling me I care about you and you, you matter and you're
important.
Wow.
Wow.
That's a very interesting.

(52:13):
Wow.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Good job on packing that suitcase guys.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mary.
I need to go to Florida next week, so I might need to pack it back up.
You're going to Florida next week?
Oh, I was like, what?
That's cool.
You just gotta get a genie lamp and you can go wherever you want.
That'd be so fun.
Dude, how fun would it be for you to play the genie?

(52:33):
In the Latin?
Mm hmm.
That's the best play the middle school is doing this year.
Are the, oh yeah.
Charlie might get it.
Oh my gosh.
Charlie, I love, okay, let me talk about Charlie for a little bit.
I love this kid.
Hold on, hold on.
Before we get away, I still have a couple of questions about de-erosion.
Okay, come on.
Then let's get back to Charlie.

(52:54):
Okay.
Okay.
What have you found that has helped you?
Pinching.
Pinching?
No.
Okay.
So I can show you you're real.
We just talked about sensory stuff.
So anything that gives you that sensory jolt or adrenaline jolt or endorphin jolt that says
you're alive, but what have you found in practice or in people or in organizations in any way

(53:17):
that has been any kind of a help either in learning or in actually getting relief?
If I stop and notice, it definitely is helpful.
If I stop and count all the little tiny pokies on the pine needle branch and if I stop and
notice and look at all the clouds in the sky, very recently me and Gwen, my girlfriend,

(53:39):
went up to Mary's Peak to see the sunrise.
And I was sitting there and I was looking at it.
And this is a time when I felt very real because I was seeing the raw beauty that I was meant
to see, that humans are meant to see.
We're meant to be able to look out, see the sunrise, see the whole rainbow on the horizon.

(54:06):
And the entirety of the Willamette Valley was overcast and I saw a sea of low clouds
and everything about it was just so gorgeous.
And so when I stopped to notice, then that's when I felt real.
So that's one of the things that helps me feel real.

(54:27):
But it's also, and then it's also hard because you can't always be stopping to notice.
Yeah, I was going to say with the pace of life that you live, do you have a system?
How do you actually do that?
How do you, do you build that into your days?
Like do you do that regularly?
Before I answer, I'm going to remember that Mary, you had something you were going to
say.
I was just going to say, what a beautiful thought as a human to see something beautiful

(54:50):
and think I was meant to see this.
I was.
I think that's beautiful.
Yeah.
Anyway, that was it.
That was it.
If you might want to move, just put an air, yeah, just a little bit between your chair
and your mic.
Anyways, yeah, so a system, a system for noticing that.
How do you do it?

(55:11):
Apart from you went to Mary's peak and apart from when the moments come, do you actually
do this thing that seems to be the most helpful to you on a regular basis?
No, I do not.
Okay.
I do it when I notice it.
Why don't you do it?
Like on a regular basis?
Yes.
What is stopping you?
If it's helpful.
As important as it is, as it is, it's not important.

(55:31):
In like the everything I have to do in a day, it's not something I think about.
And if I get into a place where I'm like really like depressed or really like something's
wrong, then I'll think, have you stopped to notice?
And so I'll stop and notice and I'll think it's going to be okay.

(55:52):
And I just go on with my day and it's hard to think about.
So it's not that you think about it, but don't do it.
The reason you don't do it regularly is because you simply just don't, it doesn't occur to
you.
Okay.
Have you thought about or played around with trying to get like figure out some sort of
a system to remind yourself or what kind of a schedule would you like?
If it was a schedule, it wouldn't work.

(56:14):
Okay.
That's the whole deal.
Okay.
Is the reason I do it when I remember it is because that's what it needs to be done.
Okay.
If I did it all the time, it just wouldn't work.
Okay.
So I just ask you, how do you feel about the balance you have in it right now, currently?
I feel like I have a pretty good balance with it right now.
You've mentioned that you haven't really heard about it.

(56:36):
No, nobody really talks about it.
Have you been able to find any professional resources specifically that has understanding
about this?
When I was talking to my therapist, she definitely like did research on it.
And it was the first she'd heard of it.
It wasn't the first she'd heard of it.
I would hope not if she's a therapist.

(56:57):
It wasn't the first she heard of it.
I'm trying to find out how rare is it?
How rare?
Yeah, it's just not common.
I think it was the first one that she ever helped.
Okay.
Okay.
But she was able to find...
So your therapist was able to find good material to give you these tools.
Oh, and so this is where you got these tools from?
The noticing.
The realization usually comes through childhood neglect or childhood abuse.

(57:22):
So I was the first person that she'd worked on that wasn't abused as a child.
Right?
Because obviously I wasn't abused or neglected.
I mean, both the word abuse and neglect are subjective to the user.
But to become derealized, it typically takes a lot of emotional neglect.
You're talking about intense acute trauma.

(57:44):
Leaving, yeah.
I got you.
Okay.
Yes.
You did not experience that.
I did not experience that.
Yes.
I mean, I was apparently holding a journal or whatever was supposed to be helpful.
And I tried that, but that never was helpful for me because it always just felt like it's
something I had to do.
And when it feels like something I have to do, it was never helpful.

(58:08):
It was always just...
It always just became, I'm doing this for this person, not for myself.
Because I never feel like I have to do anything for...
I should never feel like I have to do anything for myself.
I feel like I want to because I care about myself.
I feel like a good resource is when if I make someone smile, and that always kind of brings
me that, brings me, grounds me.

(58:29):
I'm like, wow, I affected this person in a real way, which makes me real.
One more question.
I'm going to ask a binary question, but you do not have to give me a binary answer.
We didn't know about binary.
Like either or, black and white.
Okay.
Yes or no.
You're still in some part of a de-realization phase.

(58:52):
Do you feel like you're still fully in looking for answers or do you feel like you get it
and it's just the process of healing and finding yourself?
Because you've used somewhat used both language as you've described it.
I'm not something else altogether.
I'm not sure if this is something that I'm ever going to be able to escape because...

(59:14):
And I know obviously hard times, it always seems like there's no way out, but it seems
like if I was to fix this, my entire view on life would have to be changed.
Do you feel like you have the power to change?
Like that you're capable of it?
I do not feel like I have the power.
Do you feel like humans are capable of changing?
I feel like, well, yeah, I feel like humans are capable of changing, but I'm just talking

(59:37):
about this specific thing.
Sure, sure, sure.
But I guess what I'm wondering is why do you think you're going to be stuck with it forever?
Based on what?
Hmm, it's interesting.
It feels like something is always going to be...
It feels like nature.
It doesn't feel like, oh, like I got this sickness.
It feels like nature washed over me.
Are you saying that it feels like this is just like a natural...

(59:59):
It feels like a natural state of being for you?
Yes.
Like it doesn't...
This is very much a natural state of view.
Okay, okay.
Hold on then.
So you went through this entire traumatic thing and now you're still in it, but are
you saying it's no longer traumatic?
No.
At all?
No, I'm not traumatized by this derealization.
But it's still uncomfortable, at least in some ways.

(01:00:19):
It's always going to be, but it is...
So what about the parts that are uncomfortable?
So is it possible that there are parts of it that belong?
Parts of it that are just part of who you are and maybe it's totally different than
anything I could even imagine.
But what about the uncomfortable parts?
So you think that you're going to sit in these uncomfortable head loops for the rest of your
life?
I think uncomfortable parts is something that I'm going to be able to push through and fix

(01:00:44):
and help and get coping strategies for.
Gotcha.
But you're realizing that this is just the way my brain works.
I'm realizing that ever since whatever nature has washed over me...
Or injected into your neck.
No, nothing was injected into my neck.
It felt like...
Dad, I'm serious.
It felt like a sea.
It felt like a sea crashed over.

(01:01:08):
On that day when I was looking out onto the leaves, I felt like all of a sudden the sea
crashed over me and I was like...
It was so swift for a mental problem.
It wasn't a development.
It was so swift.
It was like a physical feeling.
Like it just happened.
The entire thing, physical, mental, emotional, everything.
Obviously it developed and got worse.

(01:01:30):
But that was the moment.
But that was when I was like, oh my gosh, something changed.
And it was intense fear.
Because I didn't know.
I didn't know what this was.
And now I know and I'm comfortable where I am.
And obviously I wouldn't like to be like this for the rest of my life.

(01:01:51):
I would love it if I was able to go back to being eight and being all happy and everything
is so clear.
But it's something that I feel like I can be very content with living with.
And I feel like I can definitely benefit so much from it.
But there was definitely a sickness part of it.
Like a part that was an injury.

(01:02:13):
But now I just have the scar.
Like maybe you came into the awareness a little too emotionally early.
Because if it's just who you are, then it can't be an injury to find out who you actually
are.
I don't feel like this is...
I'm not sure how to explain this.
Okay.
Let me try again.
It felt like whatever it...
When I was a kid, that's how I truly am.

(01:02:35):
And that's how I still am in just in my brain, behind my eyes.
I've said that phrase.
When you're a kid talking about the free, joyful.
Just free and joyful.
Free and joyful.
And also the like eight to 12-ish part.
That part too.
And curious and learning.
Yes.
Okay.
I feel like that is me.
I feel like I am that behind my eyes.
But something happened and it made everything else around me into something that I can't

(01:03:02):
reach.
And even though it sounds like it's not great and it's not good at all, I've come to learn
that it's not something I need to fear.
What do you mean it made everything around you something that you can't reach?
What do you mean by reach?
You can't...
I can't...
Because you can physically touch stuff.
I can't know.

(01:03:23):
I can't know that this is...
Okay.
So it made everything seem unknowable.
It made everything unknowable.
Yeah.
Unknowable.
Is that the it that you're talking about when you say, yes, I know what it is now?
Yes.
That is it.
Just what it is, is that everything is unknowable.

(01:03:43):
I'm trying to grossly oversimplify just to see.
I guess if you're trying to oversimplify it, then yes, that would be accurate.
Okay.
It's so much bigger and more complex than that.
Those are just words.
Obviously everything is more complex than that.
But that would definitely work as a simple explanation.
I'm just trying to get a sense of what it feels like.
Everything is...

(01:04:05):
Everything is unknowable, but in an intense and uncertain way.
Everything is chaotic.
Does it also feel like the same feeling to say that the realization is that you are completely
alone?
A big part of the realization is the singularity, the isolation.

(01:04:27):
I'm so alone in this.
When I'm talking to you, it's hard to not feel like I'm talking to an object.
Like an object and not a person.
Because I can't prove that you're not just something that someone made for me to talk
to.
Or that you made for you to talk to.
Or that I made.
Yeah.
I can't ever be sure that any of this or any of you or anything that I'm with isn't just

(01:04:51):
minerals in this simulation or whatever.
I really appreciate you chasing that down with me.
I feel like I have a much better understanding of...
Good.
I'm glad.
I'm very glad because I've never known how to explain it to you.
It's a very tough thing to explain.
It's so abstract.
It's very complicated.
We're talking about mental loops of people whose brains are particularly loopy.

(01:05:14):
Yeah.
I know.
I got all that loopy juice.
Welcome to it.
Loopy juice.
Yeah.
I can ask you questions all night.
I like it.
I want to also give this conversation room to breathe and be what it wants to be.
That's great.
I definitely wouldn't mind you asking more questions.
I really enjoy you being able to...
Excuse me.
You're excused.

(01:05:35):
Kill yourself.
Maybe.
You never know.
You never know.
What did you just say?
Now don't repeat it.
I didn't say anything.
Typical freaking humor.
The typical comment I have to deal with around here.
Yeah.
How many people tell you to kill yourself on a daily basis?
One.
Just me?
Okay.
All right.

(01:05:56):
All right.
Mary, you look nervous.
Do I?
Did that make you uncomfortable?
I meant as a joke, if it did.
I know you meant it as a joke.
You just don't know...
Putting that out there, it's such...
There's so many people that it's so real to...
There's certain humor that just doesn't hit with me.

(01:06:17):
Yeah.
And that's not funny to most people.
Accurate.
And it probably shouldn't be funny to any people.
It shouldn't be funny to anyone, obviously.
But I've learned that you can't...
When things aren't real, I mean...
Exactly.
You gotta find the humor where you can find it.
You know what I mean?
I was about to say, this is a concept that I've been thinking a lot about myself with,
is what is death?
Death is such a human concept.

(01:06:41):
People will try to see patterns in the universe, like stars die or stars change.
That's what death is.
Yeah.
And they shine bright to us even after they're dead.
Right.
But I'm also talking about us.
We die, but we just change from we breathe in and breathe out to we just don't breathe
in and breathe out.

(01:07:01):
Yes.
And we don't move.
We change from we can interact with our surroundings to we become our surroundings.
And this is...
Even deeper interaction with our surroundings.
And I feel like...
We become our surroundings.
Death is such a human concept because we can't fathom it.
Our neurotransmitters need us to be alive to...

(01:07:25):
Other people think they need us to be alive as well.
But we don't.
I know.
Are you afraid of death?
That's what I...
I'm not afraid of death, then.
In all of this I've traveled through, I'm not afraid to die, but I definitely don't
like being in pain, but like, who does?
Some people do.
Sounds like you're someone who's faced death.
I guess, yeah.

(01:07:47):
Niko death.
Yeah.
It's just as real as any kind of death, isn't it?
Yep.
Yeah.
And so I feel like the concept of death to humanity as not only something negative, but
also just like something important, it's just a change.
Okay, I'm gonna ask you a feelings question.
When you think about death, what is the feeling just at your core?

(01:08:10):
What is the feeling that you associate with death or one of them?
I used to feel a lot of resentment and like, not comfortable, obviously.
Yeah.
It used to be very uncomfortable.
Now my first feeling I feel is, I feel comfort when I think about death.

(01:08:30):
I just feel like when the time comes, when I'm old or when I get shot in my car or when
I am overdosing on my hotel floor.
Is this once you're a rock and roller?
I was literally like, are we?
No, that's not my plan.
I wanna join like 27 club, dude.
Does your comfortable relationship with death feel morbid?

(01:08:51):
No.
Just feels comfortable.
It feels comfortable.
I feel like-
I guess morbid's subjective.
Morbid is very subjective.
Yeah, but morbid has to do with a lot of innards, like the visceral.
It has a certain connotation.
Oh, okay.
Whereas what I hear him describing is a home.
He feels like Hallmark to him rather than Quentin Tarantino.

(01:09:13):
Yeah.
No, it's not like-
Oh my gosh, that was a really good-
It's not like I wanna die because this life is so bad and I just wanna feel something
different.
It sounds like you're happy to be like, you're coming to terms with your-
I love my life.
Yeah, you're a goddamn honor, dude.
But I would also-
Yeah.
I love-
Okay.
I also love lying and manipulating others.
Narcissist.

(01:09:34):
I don't see that at all.
But I guarantee you that each one of those categories, it's like-
Gallows humor.
You don't have to fulfill-
Gallows humor?
Oh my gosh.
Gallows.
That's like a new type of humor.
For real.
Dude, it's the oldest humor in the book.
Wait, is that a real term?
Gallows humor?
It's a real term, I think.
Or maybe I made it up, but-
I thought you just made it up.
Gallows is real.
Well, I don't know where I got it from.

(01:09:55):
I don't see where it's a real term.
Based on your dream.
Yeah.
I probably got it from my dad or something.
That's where I usually get those types of-
I've definitely read that somewhere.
I have a question.
I've been suffering for all of history.
And humor is how they get through it.
Mary, what are you going to say?
You're not wrong about that, my friend.
This is great.
I need to have Icon every one of them.
Yeah, seriously.
You're deep.
No, he's a moderator.

(01:10:16):
He's just like, Mary, you're up.
Speaking stick.
Oh, I like that.
Mary has a question.
This is the third time he's done it.
It's great.
Mary has a question and it's important.
I freaking love it.
And I like to see how long I can put it.
Okay.
So one of your one type of art that you do is to act and become a character or develop

(01:10:38):
a character or however you would like to describe it.
Do you like to do you like to write?
I do like to write.
I'm taking this creative writings class and we write poetry or stories or whatever.
And I definitely enjoy it.
I think it's really fun and it's very like humanizing.

(01:10:58):
I don't really have a whole lot to say about writing because once again, it's just another
intangible human concept.
But my brain feels good to like create this character or like portray this idea.
That's all that's like we're either creating a character portraying idea.
You're writing.
That's what we're doing.

(01:11:18):
Yeah.
Try to think of a different example.
I am trying to before you even suggested it.
I would love to read some of your writing.
I have my notebook inside.
Cool.
Well rendezvous in the kitchen.
Have you published anything or posted anything or do you have a?
I don't feel the need to.
Yeah.

(01:11:39):
Okay.
You're like, okay, I'm just writing this for myself.
Word.
If you were feeling compelled to write, is there a typical typical?
Okay, we are pausing game.
I'm not sure.

(01:12:00):
The sun is high.
I'm sapphire sky.
These grand small.
I'm the endless realm.
The circle of life.
Elton John would be so proud of you right now.
I wish I could meet that guy.
Me too, dude.
Maybe he'll see his pocket and be like, we could drive over to something.
Thank you, sir.

(01:12:20):
I will not move a butt muscle.
Okay.
What I was going to ask you is, do you prefer poetry?
Do you prefer pros?
Do you prefer short stories?
What I'm for poetry.
I like and not free verse poetry.
Oh, okay.

(01:12:40):
I like I'm a stand man as you dad had been like, it's not poetry.
It doesn't rhyme.
You got your dad said, said that to me sometimes.
So you like it to rhyme?
I do like it.
I like when it rhymes because it's like, it's not just like it feels as cringy.
Like when I read someone's poetry that doesn't rhyme, it's just like when we walk through

(01:13:04):
our life wishing that the birds would come down, I like there's no rhythm.
So you like slam poetry because they don't rhyme and slam poetry is fucking powerful.
Yeah, but not into it.
I just, I still listen to Shakespeare.
All right.

(01:13:24):
That's cool.
And I feel like this is the age of, of free verse slam poetry and like the age of rhyming
poetry has passed.
I think people like all of it.
I think there are people that like all the, but I feel like the movement, the current
movement is towards.
Well, slam poetry has been around for a very long time.

(01:13:46):
Like how long?
Like 1800s?
I mean, I don't know.
I feel like slam poetry is fairly new.
I'd have to, I'd have to googler it.
You guys are so cute.
Cause we're, cause neither of you have any idea and you're just having this little halfway.
I am curious if you've ever written a poem about the gallows dream.

(01:14:08):
I actually haven't.
That question is where all of my other questions are stemming from.
Wow.
Thank you for asking that.
Were you wondering that too?
No.
I'm more curious than I am now.
I would, I would totally write something about that.
I would love to write something about that.
I would love to read something about that.
Me too.
I'm like craving it and it doesn't exist yet, but, and I don't want, I mean, do what you

(01:14:29):
want.
I'm definitely going to be writing about that.
Do what we want.
No, I know.
Cause I'm now interested.
Cool.
Sweet.
Thank you.
I think that'd be beautiful.
I think one way to sometimes feel real is to create art.
I agree.
So that's why I was like, huh.
Like I feel like the best way to do it is like the best art for me is the theater.

(01:14:53):
Yeah.
I like music and I like doing it, but it's just, it's just not, it just has, has done
it, been doing it less and less for me.
That's why I'm not as like listening to music or what do you mean?
Writing music.
Oh, well, when you're writing music, when you're playing music, you're channeling your
energy.

(01:15:13):
And it's amazing.
But when you're on stage, you're channeling everybody's energy, who's watching you and
everybody's energy, who's acting with you.
And all of it blends into this crazy awesome.
Yes.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
And to your point, Mary, I think with my perspective of art, because I believe that humans are

(01:15:34):
made out of emotions that literally we are art and emotions are art.
And it's all this, just this inseparable mash of the same thing looked at from different
angles of prism that's constantly flashing different angles.
So what better way to be present, which is the thing that you're after for balance than
to express your emotions through the creation of art.

(01:15:58):
Exactly.
And that's why I, that's why I do it.
So I'm an artist.
Beautiful.
Have you ever done, cause I know you do the school plays.
Have you ever done the local theater?
The majestic or anything?
No, I haven't.
The only reason is cause I watch you do more.
The only reason is cause I don't have time.
I know.
I, I, as soon as I said that, I was like, I mean, I know you pretty well.

(01:16:18):
And I know that your burnout rate can, can get pretty.
Do you, for the class?
Well, yeah.
Yes.
Deacon.
Go ahead.
Who's the music?
I have my fingers crossed.
You have your fingers crossed.
That's now you have your middle finger up.
My middle finger, my, both my fingers are crossed.
What are you talking about?
In this, in this family, in the circle that we run in here, baby said you want to be gas

(01:16:43):
leaded.
Okay.
Continue.
Continue.
The crossed fingers of luck.
Okay.
In a conversation indicate that the person with crossed fingers has something to say.
Noted.
Does it?
You guys both know that.
Oh my gosh.
I feel like.
What the frick did you want to say?
Well, now I wanted to say that.
Okay.
Say your fricking thing then.

(01:17:04):
Well, the problem is that now I forgot myself what I wanted to say.
Well, I asked him about local theater.
We're all better for it.
We're all better for it.
And then he said he's too busy.
Oh, thank you.
You're welcome.
Oh my gosh.
There he was.
You do that.
Ike.
Yes.
I just heard you say that you're too busy for local theater.
Right.
I just heard you say that you're too good for, I'm just kidding.

(01:17:26):
Sorry.
This is something that you say a lot when you're talking to your brothers, when you're
talking to whatever.
It's just like, this is your go-to thing for, I can't do that because I'm too busy.
It's the American way, baby.
And yet I think that you're the only one structuring your life.
So I'm wondering why do you have the story that you're too busy when you're the one that's

(01:17:48):
setting up your busy so you could easily take one busy out and put another busy in.
So I can just not go to school and do the majestic again.
That's a choice.
I can just drop out of high school.
Well, and he's already acting in a school play.
Plays are also difficult.
They take up so much time.
They take up time, but also not only do they take up time, it's also that they're just,

(01:18:10):
it's hard to be doing a play like this past play.
I was like, this is the last one I'm going to do because the practices were so fucking
horrible because the director just was yelling at us all the time.
And I was like, I hate this.
That's weird.
Why?
I wonder if that-
Is that normal?
I mean, yeah.
But I wonder if going to like an actual theater, getting outside of school would be a completely

(01:18:33):
different experience.
I was like, it would.
And as soon as I'm out of school-
You'd be yelled at by a director.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm not, I don't have to live this-
Or as soon as you're done with one of your other extracurriculars or whatever.
Yeah, I got you.
Okay.
I also would like to have time of my day to spend time with my girlfriend and my family.

(01:18:54):
And I feel like if I had another thing scheduled like that, I would not have that time.
True.
What were you going to say, Mary?
I think you would be exceptional at ballet.
I'm serious.
I thought about this so much.
I wish that you guys would put me in ballet when I was a kid.
Instead of karate.
Instead of karate.
That was dumb.

(01:19:15):
My brain was thinking about how they do a lot of Shakespeare plays at the Majestic.
And then it went to you being in a Shakespeare play at the Majestic.
And then it went to Romeo and Juliet, the ballet done by the American Ballet Academy,
maybe.
Anyway.
And then I was like, oh my gosh, you would be-
I would have been great at ballet.

(01:19:35):
I would have been an amazing ballerina.
Ballerina, yeah.
Still could be.
There's still time, dude.
There's always time.
You're only 16.
Yeah.
I feel like I wouldn't put my heart into it.
Until you try it.
At this point.
You're like, oh, I'm so naturally good at this.
Do you think that you'll have, even if you don't get the time in this life, you think
you'll have an opportunity in another life to learn ballet?

(01:19:56):
Interesting.
Do you think of reincarnation as, I'm flipping this interview on you, is reincarnation your
religious belief system?
Do you believe in reincarnation?
Do you believe that is the truth?
Yes.
Yes, you do.
But I believe no.
No?
Yes, I believe in reincarnation.
And I believe that it is a word that is interpreted differently by just about everybody I've ever

(01:20:21):
talked to about it.
So I ask a question like that because I am curious to see how it looks to you.
To me, reincarnation, like Aaron Stoll says, I believe in reincarnation because Jesus is
reincarnated in this, in when he, you know, or whatever we get reincarnated when we rise
again.
So, you know, but he doesn't believe in Hindu reincarnation, who doesn't believe in Buddhist

(01:20:41):
reincarnation.
Everyone believes in it differently.
But yes, I believe that when you die, that's not the end.
It is.
I believe that it's not the end, but I guess actually I believe in some kind of reincarnation,
but what do you think happens when you die?
I feel like in this life that I'm living right now, when I leave it, I'm going to go on to

(01:21:03):
something entirely different and I'm going to I'm going to do something or be a part
of something that is so, so different than what I'm doing right now.
So ballet, just write out.
No, yeah, ballet is not even close to important enough.
Okay.
Okay.
You should feel stupid for talking about it.
Yeah, I hated ballet so much, dude.

(01:21:24):
Did you do ballet?
Sorry, I brought it up.
No, I know.
Yeah, you did ballet.
You just make cigarettes.
Ballet was my favorite.
When I was growing up, that was my favorite, like form of art.
I was really good.
I believe you're talking about feeling like a narcissist because you say you're good at
acting, but I was really.
You seem like you'd be a great ballerina.
Yeah.
Can you jump really high?

(01:21:44):
Can you peer away?
Where split leaps were fantastic.
Yeah.
Double, double.
Oh, wow.
What does that even mean?
Sometimes a triple, but that's very rare.
I could do a double on point, but I couldn't do triple on point.
Probably ballet is the most painful sport.
Really?
Yeah, they did a study and ballet is the most painful sport.
Wow.

(01:22:04):
So you asked if people liked pain earlier.
Yeah, so that's you.
We all freaking choose it our whole lives.
It feels good.
It feels.
In certain ways it does.
In certain ways it's like worth it.
When I was your age, I was doing ballet and then I did start tennis.
Those are the two main things was ballet and tennis and ballet was a thing that I could

(01:22:29):
do that made me feel real.
Like you were talking about.
It's like, okay, I can feel this pain on my toes or my muscles getting stronger because
I'm sore from the workout we did in class, all that kind of stuff.
But yeah, I was just thinking there were never any boys in my ballet class and I was just
thinking, man, it would have been cool.
Because in professional ballet, like part of two partners, right?

(01:22:52):
Like lifting each other and all the beautiful.
They're like a guy and a girl.
Yeah.
I wish I did ballet.
Well, I'm what I'm hearing is that it's not out of the question.
It's your fault.
Different life.
He's not at the end of his life yet.
He still may come to the point where he's like, you know what?
I have space for ballet now.
I change my mind.
Boom.
Dad, you asked me if I would do ballet in a different life and my whole tangent about

(01:23:14):
everything is exactly what you asked me.
Close enough, I guess.
Okay.
Does your future feel very open to you?
Yeah, it feels like I'm going to I'm going to do what the fuck ever I want to do and
or I'll do what the fuck ever I need to do.
How does that feel?
It feels human.
You feel so you're saying you feel like a human.

(01:23:35):
Yeah, it feels human.
It feels it feels uncertainty feels human.
Oh, that's that's refreshing and comforting at the same time to hear uncertainty is human.
I know it is.
And it also feels human.
It's not only like that it is human because saying something is human is cliche, but the
uncertainty of our life and uncertainty of anything that could possibly happen is so

(01:23:59):
human.
So you can always know if you feel uncertain.
That just means you're alive and you're human.
Yeah, that you are.
And that's a good reminder.
What's big on your mind right now?
This hangnail kind of sucks.
What's hitting your personal your awareness as far as what's going on in the world?

(01:24:19):
What feels important or even known to you in the world?
Yeah, in the world.
I mean, there's a lot going on.
Oh, yeah, there's always a lot going on.
What feels big to you right now in the world around you?
Or what are you aware of these days?
Let me think about that.
Nothing is a fine answer.
No, nothing is also not my answer.

(01:24:41):
Okay, swear they and also.
They sure are intangible.
Whereas another thing that our mineral mineral surplexes of bodies just created.
And the reason that some people like certain words and some people don't like other words
is also very human.

(01:25:01):
Petrichor.
That's a word I like.
What does petrichor mean?
The smell after it rains.
That's a word.
Oh, that's my favorite word immediately.
I'm also a big fan.
How do you spell it?
Petrichor.
Petrichor.
I like the H. Petrichor.

(01:25:24):
I like that a lot.
Thank you so much for telling me that, Mary.
And it reminds me of the word crepuscular.
What is that?
That sounds like pus.
I don't like that a lot.
I just pictured a mollusk.
Crepuscular is a type of light.
Crepuscular rays are the rays that are shining from the sun through clouds and then the beam
that goes to the ground.
Yes, I love that.

(01:25:44):
When you're saying that, you're like, God is real.
Yeah.
So what was your word?
Petrichor.
Petrichor.
That's the word when you described that word, it made me think of that.
The smell after it rains.
Wow, Mary, that was very beautiful.
You're welcome.
Sorry that I told you to go back to eating your crayons.
That's okay.
That just kind of rooted me.

(01:26:06):
Also not politically correct, bruh.
Even at all.
I know.
I really need to moderate myself.
One time, speaking of crayons, I taped a bunch of crayons to a canvas.
The red one is the best.
And I tried to blow dry them so they would melt down the canvas.

(01:26:28):
Okay.
And it did not work.
Would have been cool art though.
It would have been really cool.
Yeah.
How are you going to try it next to achieve this result you're after?
I'm going to put them in a little pot and just turn it on on the stove and then pour
it on the canvas and make art with it that way.
Like in the oil diffuser?

(01:26:50):
Like in a pot.
Oh, you mean like on a cook stove in a metal pot.
Oh my gosh.
The crayons.
You even said that.
Wow.
It's okay.
I was saying it so calmly.
Well, I am imagining some intensely vivid colors and textures and I'm really looking
forward to seeing this when it comes out.

(01:27:11):
So.
You should sell it to the Museum of Natural History.
Please let me see it first.
Can I buy it from you?
I like color.
Vivid, dramatic color.
I agree with you.
Because that's what all that life is.
That's what emotion is.
Yep.
Are you sure?
And none of it is what it looks like because it depends on what prism angle it's at.

(01:27:32):
It's what you see.
That's true.
Everything just changes.
So great.
I'll challenge you on that.
Life and emotions is color.
Color is a different aspect of it.
Okay.
The prism rotated and now I'm looking through a lens that it's all color and then it rotates
and now it's all emotion again.
But it's still the same thing I'm looking through.
Interesting.

(01:27:53):
Okay.
Then that was not what I was thinking at all.
And I'm going to retract my challenge.
What are you most afraid of?
What am I afraid of?
Most afraid of.
I like how he interpreted it as what am I afraid of.
Because what am I afraid of?
That's the question.
What's...
Whatever it is that is inside that brain, I want to hear it if you want to share it.

(01:28:15):
The thing I'm probably most afraid of is Christianity being real because I'm definitely going to
hell.
And as I've stated before, I did not enjoy pain and I did not want to live in eternal
pain and suffering.
So that's probably what I'm most afraid of is Catholic Christianity being the truth.
Thank you for that clarification because I was about to ask a question in that loophole.

(01:28:36):
Definitely not all Christians believe in hell by any means.
Obviously.
The thing I'm most afraid of is Catholic Christianity being the truth.
Because also then everyone's going to hell.
Is there a chance that it is?
Obviously.
There's a 50-50 chance that anything is the truth.
I mean, this is not something I'm always thinking about.
Sure.
But if I had to choose something...

(01:28:57):
I don't live in fear.
I don't live in a state where I'm like, my God, I hope this doesn't happen to me.
I mean, I guess I don't want to embarrass myself, but that's just more like I'd be uncomfortable.
Do you have any plans once you're done with high school?
You asked me that already.
Did I?
Yeah.
Kind of.
I said probably just a list if I can't figure anything out.
You're right.
I was just asking the same question at every point here.

(01:29:19):
Sometimes I do that intentionally.
This time it wasn't.
Right?
Is there anything else in your brain that wants to come out?
I was going to talk about Charlie.
Yeah, we were going to talk about Charlie.
Good recall.
All right.
What do you have to say about Charlie?
I really like that kid, and I think that he is going to be great.
If any of us do something that changes the world, it would be him.
Wow, that is incredible.

(01:29:41):
If any of my brothers are listening to this, Charlie is not my favorite brother.
Okay.
Who is your favorite?
My favorite brother is Boston.
I'm just kidding.
Oh my gosh.
No, no.
Boston is so cute.
Boston is so cute.
I love all of them, and I'm going to tell you guys why I love all of them so much right
now.
You guys ready?
I'm ready.
I'm going to cry.
Okay.

(01:30:02):
We're going to start with Lucas.
I love Lucas so much because Lucas is a teacher.
Yeah, I saw your eyes get huge.
Lucas is a teacher.
When he puts himself out into the world, he's not going to fail.
He's going to teach someone all the things that we tried to teach him in such an amazing
way that they'll be able to relate to.

(01:30:23):
Lucas is kind and understanding, and he's a teacher.
Your eyes are tearing up.
Oh my gosh.
So cute.
Well, I mean, it's just to hear that language because I just haven't thought of it in that
language before, and you're so right.
He's a teacher.
Charlie is, I've said this before, Charlie's going to do something great.

(01:30:44):
He's conceptual.
He's intelligent.
He's also very creative.
I think that when Charlie goes out to do his thing, he's going to wake up and find himself
and he's going to be like, I'm going to motivate everyone I know today.
I'm going to create a good place because he wants that.
He wants that for everyone.
He wants everyone to be happy.

(01:31:05):
He's the people pleaser, but he's going to use the people pleasing to his advantage to
help society.
He's not going to be submissive people pleaser.
He's going to be an assertive people pleaser.
He's going to be like, I will fix this for you.
Boston is, he's such a kind soul.

(01:31:27):
I love seeing everything that he does.
When he grows up, everyone who interacts with him is going to say, I wish that I had spent
more time with that man.
Boston's going to grow up and he's going to be the light in the conversation.
He's going to be, he's funny.
He's uplifting and gentle.

(01:31:49):
He's gentle.
And when he has a, he has a relationship with someone, he's going to be the relationship
where they're like, I should never have lost him.
He's beautiful.
And I'm going to be astounded at what Sawyer comes out to be because I just, no clue.
Sawyer is such a, he's, he's, he's so changing.

(01:32:10):
He's such a changing person.
I've seen him grow up throughout the years and he's changed in so many ways.
But yeah, I would say Lucas is a teacher.
Charlie is a changer.
Boston is the kind soul and Sawyer is a learner.
I know that whatever situation Sawyer is in, he's going to adapt.
And being the baby, he doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks.

(01:32:36):
Right.
And I've had to learn that everybody has an opinion about him.
I'm starting to see his backbone straighten.
Nice.
Good.
Yeah.
What are you?
I don't know.
Someone else tell me that.
Well, didn't I ask you that question in the beginning?
Yeah.
And I had no answer.
I don't know who I am.

(01:32:57):
And the only person that's going to be able to tell me who I am is the people around me
because they're interpreting who I'm putting myself out to be.
And I feel like I'm someone who adapt and someone who change.
And besides that, I'm just minerals.
You know, you're just here.
I'm just here.

(01:33:18):
Mineral water.
You're present.
Yeah.
You see yourself as being present.
Yeah.
Mary.
So so dog.
So dog.
What's the thing that was most interesting that I talked about?
If there are multiple things, then just like pick one.
I think in the beginning when you were describing how you become a character, that's actually

(01:33:41):
your acting.
Yeah.
I thought that was really interesting.
Nice.
And what do you think was the most interesting?
What do you mean by interesting?
I have all of it was interesting.
What's the thing that you're going to be thinking about most when we're done?
End of the session, your openness that you are willing to sit here and just expose yourself

(01:34:02):
to this potentially really uncomfortable conversation.
You were very open.
But but to the nature of your question, definitely your perspective of your brothers.
Yeah.
I appreciate that you see them, that you take the time to see them.
And it's really interesting hearing you walk through where you're at in your head.
Because I don't know.

(01:34:23):
You're gone all the time.
I never see you.
And I'm just letting that be because I'm also learning to be.
Just be a human here.
Yeah.
And you've seen that process.
But I've seen you change a lot.
I've seen many times.
Yeah.
And you're just freaking along for the ride, just right into it.

(01:34:45):
And and I've just seen you become more and more and more present in line with me letting
go of trying to make force you to be present because I was actually trying to force myself
to be present.
I was trying to figure out how to be present myself.
And so I thought I had to force force.
I know the thankful moment's important, but just the way I went about doing everything.
Like, it's so important for me to try to foster an environment that brings everyone

(01:35:07):
together because that's not.
That's very important.
I know.
Anyways, that's not important.
What was I saying before you freaking sidetracked me?
Jesus Christ.
I know I get a taste of my own medicine.
It's great.
I don't remember.
No, it remembers it wasn't probably not important.
Well, nothing's important because it's all just whatever you're talking about for you.
One one thing that I was thinking about earlier, though, did I really lose that train of thought

(01:35:32):
to I'm just losing all the trends?
No, you didn't.
You didn't.
What do you think?
Is it the death thing?
Is that something that's probably the most most interesting thing that I thought I was
talking about today?
I really like to talk about death.
Death is a very intriguing thing to me.
But I also have to choose between pursuing the metaphysical in these conversations and

(01:35:53):
pursuing the emotional snapshot that only you can give.
Get to talk about the death all the time.
Yeah, whatever.
I guess it wasn't important, but it probably was.
We just forgot.
It's very human.
World's not going to end.
It isn't.
Not right now, anyway.
Well, guys, thank you so much for dragging me out here into this cold place where freezing

(01:36:16):
my feet off.
Yeah, you freaking need to put the socks on if you don't feel well.
I have needed to.
Silly.
I'm just a silly boy.
I'm a silly little dude.
If you were to die today, right now, and you had the opportunity to say one last thing
and you know how people remember last words and the impression it makes, it just held
a different weight than any other word you've said if it's recorded.

(01:36:39):
What would you say?
I would say I have love for all things because all things deserve love.
OK.
So you're out there on a dirt bike cruising the mountain and you go ripping around a corner
and catch some loose rocks and you slide out over the edge of a cliff.
Your GoPro on your helmet is live streaming.

(01:37:03):
Ah!
OK, that's the first thing you do.
Oh, fuck!
That's the next thing you do.
But now DMT kicks into your system.
What the heck?
Because that's what happens in a near death experience.
Oh, really?
Oh, I didn't know that.
Your system gets flooded with DMT.
That's that where you can experience your whole life flash before your eyes.
Yeah.

(01:37:24):
And so the DMT kicks in and what first thing it does is it slows time down.
You're like in this frozen moment where you're kind of replaying your life and you're going
to say, have love for all things.
Have love for all things.
OK.
I would, yeah.
OK.
What's more important?
I guess if we're all just neurotransmitters and like whatever, then nothing is important.
Have love for everything because why wouldn't you?

(01:37:49):
I know that's simple and a lot of people said that, but it's fucking important.
How do you feel like having love for everything improves people's lives?
When you love, you're more present.
When you love, more people love you.
When you love, you're more grateful.
When you love, you grow.
When you love your plants, they grow.

(01:38:10):
When you love your children, they become amazing.
When you love your wife, you grow a deep, deep bond with her that produces so much dopamine
and serotonin throughout your life.
It's like what could possibly be better than loving everything around you?

(01:38:32):
Love, love war.
Love the connection that conflict brings.
Love learning.
Love simplicity.
Love complex.
Love yourself.
Really, definitely love yourself.
Love what you do.
Because when you love what you do, when you choose to hate what you do, it fucking sucks.

(01:38:53):
When you choose to love what you do, it's great.
And when you love pain, then it's easier to get there and you're able to see why it's there.
Those are challenging words.
Are they?
I would say most people probably don't know how to love pain or maybe wouldn't even be able to understand what you mean by that.

(01:39:14):
Okay.
I hate pain, right?
I don't enjoy pain, but I do love it.
I love that our bodies have created such a fine, fine system for us to keep living that we have something that tells us,
hey, this isn't right.
You need to stop.

(01:39:35):
Oh, this all comes back to that same realization around derealization.
In my system, everything's rooted around derealization.
It has to be.
I can't have it in a way because that's all I know.
You're not saying love the pain itself.
You're saying love all of the aspects that make life work together, including this one we're looking at right here, which happens to be pain maybe or joy or...

(01:40:01):
Love Mary.
I do love Mary.
Love differences.
That's important also.
I feel like people are starting to finally get that.
You do?
People are starting to realize that we don't love differences and we need to.
It's interesting that people are starting to recognize that we don't love differences.
That makes me feel like get ready at least to love differences.

(01:40:23):
Because it's a pattern.
Every single time that people recognize something, it's always changed.
Beautiful.
It takes the mavericks who are willing to do the thing that no one else would dream of doing or be brave enough to do to make that change.
I have to catalyze that one little spark.
The lion.
The otter that catalyzes the change.

(01:40:45):
This is why I'm here, is to talk really deep and then also manipulate you guys.
Do you feel like you've been successful in manipulating?
Oh, yeah.
I feel like you guys totally think I'm smart.
You also think you're smart.
Yeah, maybe a little bit.
And for anyone out there that is going to be like, well, I actually love Hitler.
You should not love Hitler because Hitler is fucking dead and he's the ground and you should love the ground and the ground is great.

(01:41:09):
I love the ground.
I love that little walk around.
But the reason that Hitler did so many bad things is because he didn't have that love.
If someone did love Hitler, if Hitler was an abuse as a child, if Hitler's dad loved him, then yes, he should have loved him.
And also his grandfather.
What?
Hitler's parents were incestuous.

(01:41:33):
That's so fucking horrible.
I did not know that.
Oh, my God.
I'm pretty sure his dad was incest.
I'm pretty sure his dad was his grandfather because that's why his mom was abusive toward to him.
Incest is the only thing you should not love.
She blamed Hitler for.
I'm really fucking this up, but it's true.
Well, it's already fucked up, so you can't make it worse.

(01:41:55):
I'll have to Google it later.
Interesting.
Don't love Hitler, obviously, because he's bad and don't like being a Nazi.
But isn't he part of all of the workings of all of this?
Hitler was not a nice guy.
But he was part of all of what is.
Everything is.
Everything has been.
He was part of the tapestry.
And as that part, he is lovable as that part.

(01:42:19):
When looking back on to our history, you'll be like, I still know.
All right.
Anyways, I'm really trying hard to bring that one together.
Me too.
But no, I think I'm done with that one.
So love almost all things.
Got it.
OK, almost all things.
Thank you.
Thank you for your honesty.
Thank you for your bravery.
They get a medal or you can have all the metal you want.

(01:42:43):
There's probably plenty in the yard on the way back to the house.
Thank you, Angela, for letting us use your fantastic massage studio for this recording, which this is the first one.
First a lot of firsts here.
First time recording in at least kind of a studio.
Yeah, everyone, I'm introducing Mary.
My name is Trisha.
I quite super appreciate you being willing to do this.

(01:43:05):
And I appreciate, like your dad was saying, your openness.
Thank you.
I'm glad that I did do this.
I think it was really fun.
Good.
It's rare to me to kid your age that is as comfortable in their own skin as you are in yours.
Thank you.
Thank you for.
Existing.
Thank you for existing.
Thank you, then.
Mary.
Thanks for having me.
I'm stoked to be here.

(01:43:26):
And thanks for having me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're all great.
This was fun.

(01:44:01):
Yeah.

(01:44:31):
Thank you.

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