Laurel: questions of faith and morality

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This is emotion art.

(00:04):
Emotion is what we're made of.
Art is what we do.
Emotion art.
Welcome to a conversation with my sister, Laurel.
Spelled with two N's.
Laurel wrote me a letter with questions.
I love questions, so I asked her if she would be willing

(00:25):
to sit down with me and record.
See where the conversation goes.
And she was.
Thank you, Laurel.
I really appreciate your questions.
They are treasure in a polarized world.
It is such a treat when sovereign worldviews
can brush up against each other without a fight.

(00:48):
Shout out to Buddy Anderson,
who brings the sound magic,
the original music.
Check him out on Spotify from another Mista.
Thanks, Buddy.
And thanks to everyone who's been a part of this.
These conversations are wonderful.

(01:11):
They feel life-giving,
and they can only be co-created with other people.
So I wanna say thank you to everyone who's been a part,
who's a part now and who will be a part in the future.
It's the nicest thing anyone's ever given me.
I love you all.
And Laurel, you gave me this one.

(01:36):
Thank you.
Welcome to emotion art.
Emotion art, where we sit down and make art.
Emotion art.
Creative, creative energy,
moving outward in conscious expression of feeling.
Emotion art.
It's emotion art.
It's emotion art.
Emotion art.
Emotion because we are literally made of emotion.

(01:56):
Art because everything we do wants to be art.
Emotion art.
Feel, feel, feel, feel, feel.
Emotion art.
It's all beautiful.
It's emotion art.
Emotion, emotion art.
A space for emotional art.
Creative energy, moving outward in conscious expression.
Emotion art.
An emotion art gallery.

(02:18):
This, this, this, this, this, this, this,
this is emotion art.
You're welcome.
I can hear us talking.
You know, when you're on the phone with someone
and the phone call starts echoing
and all of a sudden you can't like think anymore?

(02:38):
Yes, Laurel, I do.
That's kind of how I feel.
That's how you feel right now.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I have some advice for you in that.
Enjoy it.
Every conversation starts in an uncomfortable space.
Unless you have hundreds or thousands of hours
of practice.
Yeah.
So you know what to expect.
You know what's gonna come out of your mouth,
but most people have never done something like this before.

(03:01):
So how could they possibly know what to expect?
But it's nice to have soothing tea
when everything feels awkward.
You have to be very proper.
This is for the record.
That's, that's okay.
It is.
Laurel, it is fantastic to see you.

(03:23):
It's great to be here.
And you are here, which means you're very brave.
I don't know about that.
Then I'm gonna tell you a story about it.
When I was first starting recording these conversations,
I didn't know how to start when I was on my own.
And anytime I tried to start an intro,

(03:43):
I didn't know how to find the place inside me
where I could just relax and be myself
and let whatever emotions I'm feeling inside me flow out.
So one of the first things I found
that helped me find that inner flow
of just whatever was in there,
that one of the words that wanted to come out,
the emotions that wanted to come out,
I would start my conversation by saying,

(04:05):
hey Laurel, then you were sitting in front of me.
Now the thing I'm trying to explain,
I'm explaining it to you.
Instead of just explaining it to the air,
to the microphone, I don't know how to do that.
You were my first muse.
And it's because you started getting brave real quick.
I don't know what the shift was.

(04:26):
Maybe we both got mature enough,
but you started speaking your mind
and that kind of bravery made it feel like the right person
to have sitting in front of me in my imagination
so that I could explain this emotion
that I was trying to explain.
You're a foundational element in this whole project.

(04:49):
Thanks, that's special.
And it's an expression of a deep appreciation inside me.
I think that what I'm saying is it's not a compliment.
It's just a truth.
Yeah.
Which is my defense mechanism
against somebody saying thank you.
Okay.
Welcome to How My Brain Works.
I take it as a compliment, but I get what you're saying.

(05:12):
Yeah, I'm just complicating it.
Yeah.
That's what I do.
So, how do you feel?
Right now.
I've had so many thoughts going through my head
for weeks now.
I play conversations in my head.
Yeah.
And now I'm like.
I do that too.
What was I gonna say?

(05:33):
When you say you play conversations in your head,
do you mean that, let's say you're walking down the street,
you see somebody walking across the road in front of you.
Is there a conversation in your head about that?
Is there a conversation about everything you notice?
No.
Okay, so what do you mean by you play conversations?
What do you mean by you play conversations in your head?
I'm a different person in my head.

(05:53):
Like the things that I say to people
and the conversations I have with people
are very different in my head
than they actually are in real life.
Okay.
I'll have a conversation in my head
and I will have like all these emotions.
Yes.
Whether it's anger or like passion
about what I'm talking about.
And then when it actually comes time to have a conversation,

(06:15):
sometimes I kind of just shut down.
Well, when we first started talking
about having this conversation,
you were unsure whether you even wanted to have it at all.
I don't know if that's true,
but I'm saying you were not immediately positive about it.
Yeah.
But you wrote me a letter in which,
I mean, basically you said,
hey, Michael, there's a lot of things that I have to say

(06:37):
and I don't know how to say them.
So I'm just gonna do what I see you do.
And I'm just gonna speak exactly from my gut,
the exact emotions I wanna come out
and not worry about what it looks like
or how it makes you feel.
Hopefully you take it for the love that it is,
something like that.
Yeah.
And then you proceeded to write
a extremely interesting letter.

(06:57):
Interesting to me because it felt completely honest.
You asked some questions in it.
Try and remember what,
it's really hard for me to remember specific things.
I remember the emotional feel of a thing.
I did ask a few questions.
A lot of the things that I said were
things that I think about you
that didn't necessarily need a response.

(07:20):
Are you saying that you weren't actually,
like you didn't expect a response?
But then I thought about it and I was like,
well, what did I,
cause it wasn't a super lovey-dovey letter, right?
Not at face value.
So it's kind of like, what are you supposed to say?
Hey, thanks for the letter.
Or were you supposed to say like,
there wasn't really questions to answer.

(07:42):
So when you emailed me and you're like,
I'm a lot better talking face to face.
I'm like, well, that makes sense.
I'm not sure what I was expecting him to say.
I just kind of was needing to tell you the things
that I was thinking and the things that were on my heart.
Yeah.
It felt to me like you were talking through

(08:04):
all the things you think about me or some of them,
not all of them, obviously.
How do you put that in one letter?
Yeah.
I felt like there were some good questions.
I felt like there was curiosity in it.
Like there was definitely judgment
and I don't mean judgment in any particular way.
I just mean you explaining,
what do I mean by judgment in that case?

(08:27):
Let me just put this out there.
I'm a Christian, which you know,
and I believe what the Bible says
and you know what the Bible says.
You have to know that I can't love you
without trying to help you to see Jesus.
That is how I love you.

(08:48):
And so in writing a letter like that,
it's not like I'm, I'm not judging you.
Okay.
I am loving you, but.
Are you hoping that it will be instructional for me?
I want you to know Jesus.
That's my ultimate goal.
Any conversation I have with you
or any interaction that I have with you,

(09:09):
I hope and pray that you will see Jesus through that.
No question.
I don't want to challenge you.
You can challenge me.
Okay.
I hope you feel comfortable to speak up
if you feel put on the spot.
You are never obligated to ever answer anything,
especially not in any way you think I want you to.
I'm only ever looking for what that gut reaction

(09:29):
you're having to whatever we're doing talking about.
But I'm wondering, you said something very confusing to me
so I want to understand it a little bit.
Just now or in the letter?
Just now. Okay.
I believe you said I can only love you
if I try to make you see or help you see Jesus.
I don't understand that.
I don't understand what you mean by that.
Are you saying that you're not allowed to love me?

(09:53):
Well, first of all, can only, why?
Why can you only love me?
Like, why is this?
Why does, why is this true for you?
And second of all, what does it mean?
Does it mean that if you are not able to convince me,
like the only basis you have for love,

(10:13):
which by which I'm assuming you mean a relationship
rather than a feeling, because I think that,
but I don't know, here's the thing is I don't understand.
Could you maybe state that in different words
and help me to stop talking in circles
about not understanding this?
Thank you.
Okay. Sometimes I just assume that you know
exactly what I'm talking about because

(10:34):
you were raised a Christian.
So maybe I just need to not assume that.
So I know Jesus and I have him in my heart
and I know peace and he's like my whole world
and my whole life.
And I also know that he's the only way
and that you are lost completely.

(10:57):
Like, I'm not trying to offend you, but you're-
You can't.
You're blind and you're lost.
You're not the first person to tell me these things.
Well, and I know this isn't the first time
I've told you it either.
And as long as you're willing to tell me,
I'm willing to hear.
So if you could kind of look at that from my perspective,

(11:18):
you're my brother and it's just incredibly sorrowful
for me to see you having to live your life
without knowing our creator.
You know, you probably believe something along the lines of,
I can believe this if I want,
and you can believe what you believe.
And it's all fine.

(11:39):
It's all fine.
Everything's good.
And we can have communion,
even if we don't believe the same thing.
But that's just not reality.
And that's not the truth.
The truth is that there is only one way
and you're not on the path.
And so how could I love you by doing anything

(12:03):
besides trying to help you to see the path
and trying to pull you out of the fire?
Does that make sense?
A little bit more?
You don't believe the same thing I do,
but you have to know that like,
that's what I desire for you.
It would be like as if you were walking with someone
towards their death and you knew that it wasn't for you,

(12:27):
you were safe, but you were just gonna walk with them,
hold hands and laugh with them and love them
without actually warning them
that they're on their way to their death.
Like how would that be loving them?
You couldn't do that.
I definitely understand that.
I remember that feeling of knowing the person
that I'm talking to is about to step off a cliff

(12:48):
and has no idea.
If you care about them, what do you do?
I remember that.
But you might remember it
from a different perspective than me.
I do, because you have a moral perspective.
Well, yeah, but I mean.
I've never seen the world the way you do.
Couldn't, not in any way.
Our whole foundation of experience
has been extremely different.

(13:10):
That's really the reason that I wanted to sit down
and talk to you because I wanna know.
I wanna know what it looks like,
because behind the eyes that I'm looking at right now,
there is an intelligence, there is an awareness.
Hopefully.
I mean, jokingly sure, but it's just true.
There is somebody in there
and they have their own view of the world

(13:31):
and no one's ever seen it.
And I can remember back to ways that I felt
when I was in various Christian environments.
And there are some people that feel
like I was never a Christian.
And there are some people that feel like I definitely was.
And I let them worry about that.
Yeah.
I can't go back.

(13:51):
I can't analyze my feelings then.
I can only experience my feelings then
through my feelings now.
So if I were to ask you questions regarding back then,
would you be able to answer them?
I would do my best.
Just that I have the awareness
that my answer is actually about me now.

(14:13):
More than it's about me then because I'm not there.
I don't know.
I only have, but I'm sure willing to try.
Okay.
So my question is, you said like Christian environment.
So back in the day when you went on the mission field
to India, went to the Amish,

(14:35):
that time in your life when you would have said,
I'm a Christian,
like did you actually have a relationship with Jesus?
Well, number one, you're talking about the most of my life
up until 10, 12 years ago.
So I'm actually specifically talking about
like around the time you went to India.

(14:57):
Oh, but you mentioned things that are in many other times.
Okay.
Okay, I got you.
In the context of the time that I went to India,
did I have a relationship with Jesus?
Yeah.
What do you mean by relationship?
Because I mean, surely that is experienced differently
by every single person.
So what are the, what like kind of,
what are the qualifications of that?
Because I would spend hours in intercessory prayer

(15:20):
and fasting, I was very passionate about Jesus.
I had a faith that no matter what else shook in my life,
there was this part of me that I held onto
like a life raft in a storm that knew
that no matter what happened,
the one thing that I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt

(15:43):
was I would never stop believing in Jesus.
End of story.
That was the final safety.
That was the thing that I would end up back at
when everything around me just felt terrifying and horrible,
which it did.
I mean, for most of my life in various ways
with lots of patches of sunshine, but I was passionate.

(16:05):
I would have done anything for being able
to feel something outside of myself
that I knew was Jesus, was the Holy Spirit.
Because I could feel tingles and like different things
that came in high emotional states,
but I was never able, like my brain always knew that-

(16:26):
You were missing something?
No, not that I was missing something.
To me, my relationship, like,
because I was raised in the Jim Roberts group.
I was raised in the circles I was raised in.
And the way I saw myself, not because I wanted to,
but just because I was raised this way,
I saw myself physically as something bad,
something evil, broken, sinful.

(16:47):
And all of my thoughts and impulses and urges
and just the crazy stuff that happens in my brain
was all accompanied with this feeling of flickering shadows
from firelight of hell.
Just that's how it felt to me.
And so I'm looking for something to save me
from this like way I perceive the world

(17:08):
as being so dangerous.
And to like, let me know that there's something
that's gonna rescue me, that's gonna save me.
And I don't know, dude, it's,
what I experienced is because of how I saw it.
So I'm not sure how to answer the question
because I experienced such a depth and such passion
and such belonging and such a craving, a desire to learn.

(17:31):
I went through the Berean School of the Bible,
like an intense discipleship school that you live there.
And it was my whole life.
And then, so really it's up to everybody's opinions,
what they wanna think.
The way, like if I were to answer that question
with my language, I would say I didn't know myself.

(17:52):
I thought I didn't belong.
I thought I was something bad, an outcast.
So how could I know somebody else,
be it Jesus or anybody, if I don't know myself?
Which is reverse, I know.
It's my worldview.
It's, but I don't, I don't know, does that help?
Like, or does that give you more clarity
for what you wanna ask?

(18:12):
I mean, that is kind of one of my questions is,
I just wanna figure out like,
if you actually had a relationship with him or not.
I wanna understand you better.
Do you wanna know if I think I did?
Yeah.
Back then, I thought I did,
abso-freaking-lutely,
but I had crippling imposter syndrome.

(18:35):
I thought I was tricking him into it,
because I'm so bad, like I'm terrible.
And I'm rationalizing way younger emotional thought processes.
So. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that was the first question I put in the letter,
was when you called yourself a Christian,
if it actually was real to you.
Yes, extremely.

(18:56):
Okay, so I- Viscerally.
I had a conversation with dad.
Now this is, I don't know how this is gonna go over,
because you remember things very differently
than dad probably does.
But let me pre-qualify since dad's coming up already.
When you speak about dad, you're speaking about yourself.
You're speaking about your perception of him,
not actually speaking about him.

(19:17):
And when I speak about dad, I'm speaking about myself.
How I perceive him, not about him.
I just want you to know that that's how I see
everything you say.
If you tell me something about me,
you're actually telling me something about yourself,
about the way you feel in response, sure,
to something you see in me.
Well, this is actually gonna get a little complicated.
Okay, perfect.

(19:37):
I'm gonna be telling you something about dad,
who is telling me something about you.
You say whatever you wanna say,
I'm just letting you know that that's how I look at it.
Okay.
He told me that when you got back from India,
he went into the room and you were in there
and you'd been praying or something,
I don't remember exactly what.
And you looked at him and you said,
dad, I just don't have a relationship with him.

(20:00):
I don't know him.
So I don't know if you remember that,
but I wanted to ask you, like what?
I've had lots of times of doubts and of just like,
I've gone through every possible roller,
mental roller coaster in my, in existence.
Like, I have a brain that is always thinking
and thinking and thinking and overthinking
and under thinking and thinking underneath that

(20:21):
and beyond that.
And it gets so confusing and it made life
really confusing for me for a long time.
But now I understand that it's just how my brain works.
And it's, I don't have to take any of it seriously.
I just let it happen.
And I know when there's something I need to watch,
look at.
Okay.
So yes, I probably said something like that.

(20:42):
Yeah.
And it was probably in a moment where I felt like
really discouraged because it's hard to live your life
with one foot out of your body,
not feeling like you belong in your own body.
That's how I grew up.
Not because of anyone made me grow up like that.
Just because that's how somebody who's in the circumstances

(21:03):
I was in as a kid is gonna grow up.
That things like me at least.
And the end of the story is I'm super thankful
because without all of those things combined,
I wouldn't be who I am now.
Yeah.
Do you think that maybe your perspective of who God is
and how your relationship was with God

(21:23):
was very heavily impacted by your relationship with dad
and who dad was to you?
Like you're saying my perspective of God back then was,
you're asking me if it was shaped by my perspective
of dad back then?
Yeah.
Like for some reason people, what's the word,
project their view of who God is based on their dad.

(21:49):
Their own father, their earthly father,
they see the heavenly father as their earthly father,
whether or not that's actually who he is.
That's a good question.
I would say partially.
And the reason I say partially is because
I wasn't actually with dad for a lot of my formative years.
He had the grace to let me go or the foresight maybe.

(22:12):
I don't know.
But I would say the people that come to mind,
you wanna know who comes to mind when you ask me
who influences my view of what God is?
Yeah.
The first person that comes to mind is a guy named Leonard.
He was one of the authority figures in the Jim Arborist group.
He was a very tall man with a very big beard

(22:33):
and a very coarse, a very severe demeanor.
Very severe demeanor.
Like you said that,
the first thing that comes to mind is Leonard.
Okay, because you might've had more
than one father figure back then.
The second thing that comes to mind is him telling me
that everything that I do is trash.
There's nothing that I can do that's worthwhile.

(22:55):
And in hindsight, I can understand what he meant by that.
That it's like from his perspective,
we're just broken humans
and only goodness comes from the grace of God.
Comes from God himself, not from us,
which is just an intensely like every Christian
is on the spectrum somewhere with
how they view God in that way.

(23:17):
It's just that Leonard was an extreme,
like that's how he saw humans was how I saw myself.
And I spent a lot of time with him
after I rejoined when I was 11, 12.
But it doesn't sound like this is very positive.
No.
Okay.
Not at all.
You're like almost smiling.
So I'm like, what is this?
This sounds not great.

(23:37):
But again, Laurel, everything that I see in my past
feels positive to me now.
Okay.
Because it all is a one puzzle piece
that makes up who I am now.
And so that's, I still have something to smile about,
even though at the time it was terrifying.
Yeah.
It was horrifying.
I mean, I can remember it with crystal clarity

(23:57):
and I have very few memories from back then.
But when I think of the influence that dad had in my life,
the first things that come to my gut are charity.
All charity all the time.
He just always talked about it.
Kindness, treat other people the way you'd want to be treated.
If you were in their shoes.
And he always like, he was just like,

(24:18):
people always forget that last part.
Treat people the way you'd want to be treated.
If you actually exist inside of their life instead of yours.
Well, what does that mean?
That's the journey of these conversations is
now that I understand what that means,

(24:39):
the thing that drives me most in life
that I feel most alive when I'm doing is I'm trying,
is when I am seeing what the world looks like
to someone else's emotions, what it feels like.
And what better way to put yourself
in someone else's shoes, but in a grass.
Yeah.
So you talk about the feeling of like condemnation.

(25:00):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, what about?
Back when you were a Christian,
like talking about like feeling like you.
I'm going to hell?
Yeah.
Every single moment, waking moment of my life,
and probably most of my dreaming moments,
there was a part of me that was aware of the reality
that there's every chance I go to hell if I die right now.

(25:21):
I'm just going to tell you now, that is not how it is for me.
I believe you.
I see the joy in your eyes.
I see that you don't have that same weight,
but how does that look to you?
Who is God?
It's a tremendous comfort and it's simple.
It's like the simplicity of the fact that like,
I don't have to make sure that I am being a perfect human

(25:46):
being every moment because Jesus has me covered.
Yeah.
I have him in my heart.
I know him.
I have like conversations with him and he teaches me things.
He guides me and it's comforting and it's peace.
There isn't this fear of like, well, if I die this moment,

(26:08):
like when I think about dying, I think about like the sorrow
that my family will have.
Like I don't have to think about,
and I don't have to carry that burden and that weight
of just like, what's going to happen when I die?
Because I know it does sound quite different
from your experience.

(26:28):
Well, imagine that you had the upbringing you had
with a lot of like conservative values,
very, very, very conservative values,
but also with people telling you things like,
everything you do is trash and equating all
of your natural desires with sin,

(26:49):
which they're equating with isolation from God forever
and hellfire.
And you're hearing this every single night in gatherings.
What I wanted to say when you were telling me that is,
because of the differences of influences that we had,
I missed that part.
That's everything though.
I know that.
You missed everything.
And so in thinking about that, it makes me aware

(27:10):
that from your perspective,
I never had a relationship with him, probably.
Because, and what I'm trying to do is I'm trying
to analyze the feelings that I have from your worldview
instead of my own.
Because from my worldview,
I very much had a relationship with him.
And I know that now, because again, from my worldview,
not only do I have a relationship with him,

(27:31):
it's a connection that just exists.
Same as me knowing that you exist.
And it isn't anything like I thought it would be.
Again, this is my worldview, my perspective,
but I'm trying to look at it from your perspective.
And the feeling that I feel now,
which is the freedom, the peace that you're describing.
That's what I actually feel every day,

(27:53):
every minute of my life.
Even when I'm driving to Portland at four o'clock
in the morning every day for work,
I feel this overwhelming gratitude,
joy to be alive, acceptance of all that is,
just acceptance that I belong where I am because I'm here.
And all of the things that I was looking for,
in all the wrong ways, I know that,

(28:15):
in hindsight, everything's clear.
All those things I was looking for,
I just didn't find them where I thought I'd find them.
But I didn't have them then.
How long have you had them?
How long have you had them?
That is such a hard question to answer
because there is not one answer for it.

(28:35):
Basically, I would have to tell you the whole story
of how I came upon my worldview now,
which is a very long story.
It has a lot of twists and turns,
a lot of stages, transition points,
where big changes happen and stuff.
It's a story I haven't sat down and looked at fully.
And it's a story that's still unfolding,

(28:56):
the truth is, but I would say
that when we moved into this property
was when everything got so uncomfortable
in my emotions inside me
that I finally, that the switch flipped.
Whatever the switch that needed,
whatever the channel that needed to open,

(29:17):
whatever it was inside that was blocked,
that main big block cracked.
And it started out as a trickle.
There was never anything that was like,
oh my gosh, this crazy amazing thing just happened.
Yeah, inside my emotions that happens sometimes,
but the problem is you have an emotional shift

(29:38):
and then it takes forever for your behaviors
and your habits to shift to catch up.
Then you learn and you learn
and you have different conversations
because different behaviors make different conversations
and you learn different things.
And then you have another emotional shift
and then it takes forever for the habits
and the physical things to catch up.
And it just cycles that go on and on

(29:58):
and slowly by degrees like dad talks about
coming out of the fog.
I could very well describe it that way.
And it feels like waking up.
It feels like the first part of my life
was spent in a nightmare, a dream
that was often a nightmare, but a dream
where I had a certain element of control
in that I literally was physically

(30:19):
in control of what I physically did,
but I didn't actually understand control.
I thought I had to do the work,
what I was supposed to do, what I was expected to do.
And I never questioned it.
I was just abstract faith, trust.
Another thing, that's probably the most valuable thing
that I got from all of these same situations

(30:42):
that taught me the fear was the trust.
Somehow I also got that.
Trust.
Just trust.
Just take no thought for the morrow, for the morrow.
Wait.
I think it's.
Take no thought for the morrow.
Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Is that right?
I think so.
Anyway, that kind of faith,

(31:02):
the faith of the flower of the field,
that literally doesn't worry about anything.
There's nothing to worry about
because you're held, you're safe.
That verse is talking about God.
Regardless, I'm talking about the emotion.
I'm talking about that place of trust.
If I put that trust in a person,
that feeling of trust inside me
is still gonna bring the peace that it brings

(31:24):
until the person fails me, of course.
Yeah.
To my worldview, I believe in God.
To me, who God is is just very different
than I ever thought.
It's just a completely different thing,
but that's how I see it.
So who do you believe God is?
I believe that.
Okay, let me try this on.
I used to think of God as like a cloud.

(31:46):
God being this being that's just a cloud of,
cloud of omni, everything.
So this, whatever it is,
and I only use a cloud because it's like amorphous.
It's just, it just is, it doesn't.
It just is.
And one of the infinite attributes of this isness,
it is infinite.

(32:09):
I've been reading a bunch of books
about what infinite means
because in that infinite power, energy,
beingness is the potential for everything that can be.
And out of that infinite beingness,
along with the potential,
comes the creation of the potential.

(32:29):
So in the beginning, God said that there be light,
and there was light.
Before that, all there was was God.
Now there's God and light.
Still, all there is is God.
God's doing what God can do, whatever God wants.
So God creates out of himself, out of itself,
however you wanna see it.

(32:50):
For me, it just doesn't matter, but.
So you think creation is like an outpouring of God, kind of?
I think that, I mean, yeah, you could say that.
I think that God is creation.
God, by being God's self, God creates,
and God creates out of God's self.
God is all.
Everything that is, is God.

(33:11):
And I believe that being part of God,
as in, I am literally substance that God imagined.
That's what I mean when I'm saying I'm part of God,
and God imagined it out of God's self.
So being part of God, the awareness,
the pure awareness that is looking out of my eyes,

(33:35):
that's God.
It isn't my thoughts and my emotions and my consciousness
and all that other stuff.
They're operating systems, but.
It's like your soul.
It's a love story.
God, creation is a love story,
is God experiencing itself, himself,
God experiencing himself.
It's a love story, and it's just all of the things
that I was trying to see back then,

(33:58):
now it just makes sense.
Oh, God is everything.
Like when I look at, I look at you, and I see texture.
I see a ribbed.
Shrug.
Yet kind of like muted burnt yellow sweater, knit thing.
I see jeans that have lots of texture

(34:19):
and some rips and tears,
and I see silky yet curly hair that's like auburn,
like has like a, in this kind of muted light.
I see skin that just like has this like slight reflection
of the light and just smooth.
Every texture is so different and so real right here.

(34:42):
Like I can actually feel it as I look at it.
Just all of the chair, the crushed velvet,
pink chair you're sitting on.
And yet there's a part of me that knows
that what I'm looking at is little tiny photons of light
that are spinning in this choreographed dance

(35:03):
with each other, but never touching
with space between them that is so vast
that it's more than the distance between stars
compared to their size.
Well.
I know that what I'm looking at
is pure energy spinning around nothing.

(35:24):
That's what you are made out of.
I know that because I read books about it.
I read books about all the different scientists
talking about explaining biology
from this other perspective there,
or instead of just really going down
like a lot of stuff on the quantum,
just things about stuff that's really small and really big

(35:45):
and the patterns just copy each other and stuff.
And so, like I understand that this body I'm looking at
is not permanent.
It's just little light particles
that are spinning around themselves just for fun.
Just because that's what they do.

(36:06):
What else would they do?
That's what they do.
And I know behind everything that I'm seeing here,
there is an ageless and an infinite awareness,
something that is aware.
You are aware, but there is something behind your awareness
that's a deeper than you can fathom, at least right now.

(36:28):
And one day I think that you rejoin that awareness.
It's kind of like a wave coming out of the ocean
and then entering back into it.
That's a very Eastern Buddhisty language stuff.
So, I don't know what that popped out of.
So you think that like that awareness is God?
I think that the sum of every single aspect of it,

(36:51):
plus everything that we can't even fathom is God.
Whatever the energy is that creates the photons,
it comes from the substance of God.
I know that because otherwise where did it come from?
But doesn't mean it is God.
If I find your fingernail on the ground,
does that mean that's you?
No.
No.
Anyway, so yes and no.

(37:13):
Okay.
What about like, I'm asking a lot of questions
because I actually don't know exactly what you believe.
Every time that I don't have something ready to say
and that I'm thinking and that I'm fumbling with my words
and all that stuff, you are giving me the thing
that I value most in life,
which is a chance to really look at something

(37:35):
from a different perspective and say,
what do I believe about that?
I appreciate it.
I also intend to try to poke holes in these beliefs,
but I am interested in hearing them.
So what about like, sin, good and evil?
Like, what do you believe about that?

(37:57):
If you can poke a hole in it,
that's a place I would like to look
because who wants to go walk around
with lots of holes in them?
Yeah.
And you don't know a hole until you see it.
Okay, you asked me a question about what I think of sin,
good and evil.
Good and evil, yeah.
What do you believe about good and evil?
Like the movie?

(38:18):
What is sin?
If we are all, this is all just God,
then what is sin?
Why isn't it all just perfect?
What is sin?
If we're all just God, what?
That is so, if we're all just God, then what is sin?
Why isn't it just perfect?
I think that it is the way it is
because this is the only way it could be
if a God beat itself, then this would be the outcome.

(38:42):
Everything belongs the way it is
because that's the way it is.
Okay, what is sin?
Okay, I'm just gonna start with the definition
that I give people of what I think sin is
because I actually have this.
Oh, I knew you had it thought through.
So far, I haven't.
Everything you've asked me so far,
I've been stumbling over and it's been fantastic.

(39:03):
Probably come back to some of it, who knows?
I think that sin is simply knowing
that you should do something and not doing it
or knowing that you should not do something
and doing it anyway.
Not believing, not believing, but knowing,
like emotionally having that gut feeling
that you probably shouldn't do this.

(39:24):
Not that your brain's telling you,
you probably shouldn't do this.
Here's all the reasons why, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's what brain to do.
My brain does that incessantly.
I'm slowly starting to learn how to listen to my brain
and my gut, my emotions, my thoughts and my emotions,
but not let my thoughts take over,
not let them cloud up my whole sky
so that that's all I can see is what my thoughts are doing

(39:45):
because guess what?
My emotions will then follow my thoughts.
My emotions have a different idea sometimes.
So I'm always try to make sure that they have space
to be different than my thoughts
so I don't take my thoughts too seriously.
And hopefully I beat that to death.
I don't know.
I feel like I just said the same thing
like three times in a row.
Well, so you define sin.

(40:06):
Simply when you act counter to what?
That deep, deep knowing.
It's just the knowledge that we just know.
Yes.
The scripture says it's written on our heart.
So you're talking about that.
That feels like language talking about the same thing.
The thing that is you just know, yes.
Okay.
So you do actually believe in good and evil

(40:30):
and right and wrong.
To me, if something is right,
that means that it's something that I know I want
or I know I wanna do.
Not that I'm convincing myself that I wanna do
for all these reasons when really I'm just trying
to cover up trauma and pain,
but I know deep down like recording conversations like this,

(40:50):
there is something deep inside my core
that craves to do this.
So I know it's right.
What about like the person that genuinely deep down
inside their core craves to molest kids?
Like, what about that?
I don't know.
I don't know.
That's not something like there's a part of me.

(41:13):
Okay.
I'm divided on this.
Somebody that's doing something like that,
somebody who kills, rapes,
any of the gross crimes against another person's sovereignty.
I believe that is an expression of trauma they have.
There is something that is hurting deeply inside them

(41:35):
in a way that is too painful for them to look at.
And they cover over those feelings with something else.
And so the part of me that sees it that way
believes that if they were able to look at
that part inside them that hurts,
that's trying to hide that by this other thing
that is taking away from somebody else's sovereignty

(41:57):
that is inflicting damage on somebody else.
And they feel like they have to do this
to keep themselves safe.
The person who rapes feels inferior.
They feel like they have to do this action
in order to be safe.
And they don't rationalize it like that,
but that's how I understand it.
And on the one hand,
I don't think it makes them happy to do it.

(42:18):
I think that it satisfies some deep broken thing.
I think that with time, they're going to start seeing.
Their awareness is gonna start shifting.
Problem is a lot of people die before that.
But I believe that it's a direction
that every human eventually goes if they live long enough.

(42:38):
And on the other side of the fence,
other side of the coin,
I have children, I have people that I care about.
I think there are certain wounds
that in order for a society to function,
it has to impose artificial controls
on the extreme things.
It just has to, society doesn't work other than that.

(43:00):
But I mean, if you zoom out a little bit,
human pain is so temporary.
If you zoom in, it's the most real thing that there is.
And it's what I live my life to be there for and to hold
and to make a space where it can find healing.
That human pain, it is agony in its ecstasy just exists.

(43:24):
It always has.
I'll be honest, I was expecting you to not actually believe
in right and wrong.
But I mean, those are just words
and we could talk around them in circles
and find lots of different ways to define them
that I might agree with or not agree with.
Well.
If you want to live in a society,

(43:45):
then you have the things that are right and wrong there,
but okay, there are so many examples
of cultural differences where another culture
is gonna do something that you feel
is absolutely 100% morally wrong.
And to them, it's just like,
how could you possibly think that?
How you see morality is almost entirely created

(44:09):
by how you were brought up.
And so how can I look at somebody who is doing something
and make a moral judgment for them?
Because I know that if you were raised in India,
you're gonna have an incredibly different moral standard
than if you're raised in the Western culture
or in Russia or in like,
and then start going back in time,
start going back to Aztec, to Incan,

(44:30):
to however far back you wanna go.
And the morality, what somebody felt,
truly felt inside them was moral and not moral.
There are some universal things that in every culture,
you're broken if you feel like, but then again, is there?
Because soldiers don't like,
they don't feel like they feel bad to murder and to kill.

(44:52):
And really it comes down to how you justify things
in your mind.
Like what do you believe is moral and not moral,
which is defined by your upbringing.
And so I am going to know that what I see right there,
that doesn't feel like something I would do.
That doesn't feel moral to me.

(45:12):
And if it's endangering my kids,
then I'm going to do whatever I need to do
to make sure that they're protected.
But other than that, it's just like,
you're hurting your own self, bro.
I'm not here to save the world.
I'm just here to try to figure out who I am
so that I can bring whatever it is
that I can bring to the world to it.

(45:33):
Yeah.
So to push back on the like,
morality is somewhat defined by culture.
I just think about like, for example, North Korea,
generations after generations have lived in that culture

(45:54):
where the government gets to do whatever they want,
say whatever they want.
The people have to worship the leader of their country.
And if they don't, they get put in camps and tortured
and their children get killed and they get starved
for the benefit of the leaders.

(46:14):
And that is their culture.
So does that all of a sudden then, do things change?
Does rape become, okay, torture, starving somebody,
killing somebody, like does anything like that
become okay then?
Does it become okay for me?
No, no, for them.

(46:36):
Does that become okay?
Like how do you, you might just say you look at that
and say that doesn't have anything to do with you,
but it has everything to do with morality
and like right and wrong.
Because if it is like literally just defined
by where we live and the time that we live in,

(46:57):
then it is actually kind of meaningless.
It's literally just an offshoot of culture.
So it's either something a lot deeper than that,
or it really is just kind of meaningless.
I'm sure there's lots of people who see it,
who understand and who hate it,
but I think that there's probably even more people

(47:18):
who don't even know how bad, how miserable they are.
No, they don't.
They probably think they don't understand
what it's like to live where they can.
What I'm saying is that I feel compassion for those people.
I feel like the dictators who are administering all of that

(47:38):
are part of a whole line of broken, hurting people
who feel like this is the only way
that they are going to keep themselves safe
and they tell themselves the people safe,
but it's really about them.
And I believe that they're honestly doing the best they can
with what they have and what they know.

(48:00):
I believe that.
And I believe that they believe
that they have no other choice but to do the things.
And they believe that the greater good outweighs
the individual good and all that.
I don't know, I don't know.
So does that make them then guiltless?
What I'm saying is, we're talking about how I see it.
I see, I have compassion for the people.

(48:23):
I would rescue every one of them.
I would just, I would go and just be like, save your,
like you guys don't have to live this way.
Right.
Just stop, because that's how those types of things work.
But I can't do that.
I'm not going to, I'm not going to beat myself up
for not being able to do that.
I can't save them.
They have to save themselves and eventually they will.

(48:43):
And I can't, I'm not the one that sits in judgment
of what happens.
I'm not, I'm not the, I'm not the,
the infinite knowledge and understanding
and awareness of God.
I have no idea, but I know that what it would take
in order to subjugate people in that way

(49:04):
is something that I don't know how somebody could do it
and live with themselves, look at themselves in the mirror.
Like, I just don't understand it.
But I also believe that in their mind,
they're doing the best they can with what they have.
Okay.
Here's another question kind of going off
on a different direction, but.
I mean, you are welcome to keep needling in,

(49:25):
like, cause you never know.
Well, something I'm finding is that I think.
That's a good start.
Good job.
I think I see things as like, it is true or it is not.
And you don't.
Black and white?
You see it, well, not necessarily black and white.
Cause I don't think, I think there are things

(49:46):
that are definitely not black and white.
On or off, yes or no?
It's.
I'm saying in regards to, in regards to good and bad.
Right. On, off, black, white.
No, I do think there are things that are kind of like,
I don't know, like kind of hard to figure out.
But not the same things that I see that.

(50:07):
Well, and I'm not even referring to just right and wrong.
I'm referring to everything.
You do agree that there is some sort,
some form of morality, like we do know in our hearts,
this is right and this is wrong.
Maybe it is somewhat defined by culture, maybe not.
So my question is, if creation is,
and tell me if I'm using the wrong words,

(50:28):
but like kind of an outpouring.
How could you?
Well, I'm, I'm trying to define what you believe.
So if creation is like an outpouring of God
and is actually part of God,
why then do we have that,
but other creatures don't?
Like, why are we different than animals?
Our brains are different.

(50:49):
Our brains have different parts.
What do you mean?
Well, hold on.
Are we going to get metaphysical?
I don't even know what that means.
Are we going to get into the things that are next
to the physical, like souls and spirits and all this other stuff?
We have a soul.
How do you mean different then?
We have a soul and a spirit.
We have a knowledge of right and wrong.

(51:10):
So why, why then is that not the case with animals?
If like, why are we different?
If everything is just.
Are you saying animals don't have a sense of right and wrong?
It's certainly isn't the same one that humans have,
but oh my gosh, have you never had a pet?
I mean, it's, it's consequences.
And every animal's sense of right and wrong

(51:32):
is very different.
And it's very much shaped by what their experiences were
in their upbringing.
And it looks different than humans,
but I would say that humans and animals are very different,
but a sense of right or wrong, like.
Like animals will.
Are you saying because theirs is instinctual and ours is not?
No, I'm just saying like animals will like mother and father

(51:53):
get together, have baby, father eats baby.
Like this is not morality.
And some animals father takes care of baby.
Yeah.
And mother leaves baby.
And mother leaves baby.
But it's instincts and like,
so you don't think that what we have is something
far beyond and different than what animals have.

(52:15):
Yes, I think it's very different.
I don't know what you mean by beyond.
I don't think there's levels.
I think it's very different.
I think that there is a similarity between us and animals.
I think it's a similar similarity to the similarity
between us and rocks and trees.
And black holes and each other.

(52:35):
There is a similar, there is a thread that runs through it,
which is the substance that it's made out of.
And that it reacts to the world around it.
If you tap a rock, it will resonate.
There is a reaction that happens.
Trees react to the seasons.
Animals react to lots of things.
Humans have intelligence.

(52:56):
From what I understand,
humans are the only species that humans know
that have self-awareness.
Actually, this is something I'm kinda like talking
about something that honestly, I still don't quite understand.
And we can shift to something else anytime you want.
No, I guess I just- It's very interesting to me
just because we're getting into the supernatural,
like the existential, you know,

(53:17):
and metaphysical and supernatural.
Metaphysical, is that the thing that,
I think that's the thing.
Okay, meta, so it's like, if you have a joke within a joke,
within a joke, that's meta.
But is it science that you're talking about?
Metaphysics, a metaphysic,
someone who is really into metaphysics

(53:37):
would probably say that it's science,
but somebody who is into science-
Would say it's spiritual.
Would say that it is, like a doctor saying,
homeopathy is quackery or whatever.
Okay, okay, that makes sense.
No, I guess I'm just trying to understand your perspective.
Metaphysical is anything that is beyond the physical.
So you do think that animals

(54:00):
have a knowledge of right and wrong.
I'm just saying they exhibit behaviors of-
So it's instinct with them.
They exhibit behaviors choosing between
what they feel is a yes for them
and what they feel is a no for them.
They choose, for instance.
Those kittens aren't gonna eat each other.

(54:20):
When they fight, they're playing.
And they know, like, they're not going to,
if the other kitten starts crying,
the other kitten stops, because, you know, whatever.
And yes, is it instinct?
I'm not inside their heads.
I don't know what it's formed out of and stuff,
but I know that a different upbringing,
it's gonna shift how they respond to things and stuff.
But is it a conscious awareness of,

(54:41):
they're not aware of themselves.
Animals aren't aware of themselves.
So how would they look with intelligence,
with consciousness on what they do to determine,
to judge whether it's right or wrong?
Yeah.
So no.
But I could be wrong.
Maybe they're tricking us.
No.
I'm just trying to remember where I was gonna go after that.
Okay.
I have a long list of thoughts.

(55:03):
Do you have it written out?
On my phone.
Can you get your phone out?
So far I have not had to reference it once.
Oh my gosh.
If it is a tool, use it.
I love that you made a list, Laurel.
Sometimes when I get talking,
my brain stops working.
Good.
That means that you're speaking most honestly
when your brain is working least over time.

(55:25):
Um.
I'm gonna cut that word out.
The um.
It's a filler word.
Okay, do you feel like on this topic of right and wrong?
Yeah.
I mean, how do you feel about that?
Do you feel like, okay, I just need to think about this more
or like maybe, I don't know.
How do you feel?
How do you feel about my answer
or where the conversation went?
It didn't go where I was expecting it to,

(55:45):
but I did, sometimes I feel like you kind of
overcomplicate things.
And then it's so overcomplicated that it's like,
I don't even know what to say
because I don't know what you just said.
Huh, okay.
Okay.
I appreciate that because one of the things
I'm working on right now is finding language

(56:05):
and finding simple language.
Like it's something that I became aware of
like maybe five or six months ago
that I have to figure out how to simplify my language.
So I appreciate you saying that.
And if it feels like it's overcomplicated,
ask me to say it in different words.
Ask me to sum it up.
What's the point?
Because the truth is I'm speaking around things.

(56:27):
Every question you're asking me,
every single question is one that I haven't spent
a lot of time thinking about
because I only think about the things that I'm talking about
or I'm reading about it or whatever.
Right.
I just let everything else happen in the background.
So.
Well, what I'm getting at,
what I'm asking you questions to try to get

(56:47):
to a certain point and I can't expect you to answer them
how I'm expecting you to answer them.
You're not gonna be able to lead me.
But what I'm getting at is that
there is something more than just instinct with humans.
There is right and wrong.
Okay.
And to deny that there's right and wrong is kind of,

(57:08):
I don't think someone could deny that
and be honest with themselves.
And so they're gonna live in pain,
the pain of living in sin
because they're going to be trying to tell themselves a lie
when they don't actually believe it,
but they're still trying.
So there is right and wrong.
If there is right and wrong,

(57:29):
but it's not for all nature.
Like it's for, so that's where you disagree with me.
No, no, no, no.
It doesn't matter if I disagree with you or agree with you.
I think that maybe what could be helpful here
is the nugget of the question that you're asking me
that you want to ask me, how would you answer it?
I truly do believe that it is the law of charity.

(57:50):
I also believe that it's the law of God.
It's-
What's the law of, can you give a simple nugget
of what the law of charity is?
Doing to others what you want them to do to you.
So you think the definition of sin
is if you're doing something to somebody else
that you would not want them to do to you.
I think sin is disobeying God.

(58:13):
Like some law that God has laid in our hearts,
disobeying that is sin.
And I do think that there are some things
that one person could do that is sin
that another person could do that is not.
But I think in general,
there's things that everybody knows
deep down inside their heart is sin.

(58:36):
And I think that pretty much all of those things
that are universal is breaking the law of charity.
That feels, I mean, that feels true to me.
Like I don't feel like I disagree with that at all.
But at least as I understand the words.
Right, and that's, to me, that's pretty, it's simple.
Like it's not overly complicated.
But I keep kind of going back to the animals thing.

(58:58):
The reason why I'm going back to that is because
if God just created everything
and everything is actually a part of God,
then why is it that it's not okay
for humans to hurt one another?
Like that's not right.
It's wrong.
We know it in our hearts that it's wrong,
but for animals, it's not.
Why is that not written on their hearts?

(59:19):
I think it is.
I think there are situations,
and there are certain species of animals
have more situations like this,
but there are situations where
it does feel okay for them to kill.
But why does it not?
We, so, sorry, I'm interrupting you.
Good.
But.
About time.
We kill and eat animals.
Yes.
So if it's- Delicious.

(59:40):
Yeah, it's amazing.
So if we were to say,
oh, it is written on animals' hearts,
they do feel right and wrong.
And we feel right and wrong,
then why don't we feel wrong about eating animals?
Do you have any pets?
No.
Have you ever had a pet that you loved?
Yes.
What was it?
Many pets.

(01:00:00):
One pet. Fish.
One pet. Mostly fish.
But what's the pet that you loved the most,
that you felt the most attached to?
I had this snail that was orange.
It's not even a bunny?
No, it's a snail.
It's gonna be a snail only.
I named it Yo.
Yo.
And I did love it.
And then Judah pranked me
by pouring black food coloring in my fish tank.

(01:00:23):
And the snail permanently turned black.
It was so depressing.
And then I went to Mexico and my family was like,
I don't know who's gonna take care of her fish.
And the whole thing went in the dump trailer.
Oh no.
It was very sad.
I loved that snail.
Oh no.
Oh my gosh. Yes.
How old were you?
I was an adult.

(01:00:43):
I really like fish and like little snails, amphibians.
I love them.
But I did have some rabbits,
but I didn't really, never really loved them that much.
Well, this might not work as much then.
Snails are edible.
I was raised without pets,
but the bond I was looking for was like a dog or a cat.

(01:01:05):
Yeah, I didn't really have that.
Yeah, I didn't either, but I do now.
Okay.
I do now.
Okay.
I think that the world that I eat, the kitty,
is, I just don't think I would.
So-
Like it would not feel right to me.
Right, and I get where you're going with that,
but this might be a completely pointless tangent,

(01:01:27):
but it is kind of interesting to talk about.
Then it's not pointless.
So your value for the cat
is what makes the cat's life have value.
In the context of eating it or not, yes.
Okay, so in the same way that you would be really angry,
well, I don't know if you'd be angry,
but I would feel like if someone loved a cat
and someone came and ate their cat, they would be angry.

(01:01:49):
It would just be a terrible thing.
It would, yeah, it would not be a pleasant experience.
Yeah, so that you could say the same thing, no.
I think I would also be like extremely curious,
like what the heck is going on here?
Why I need to understand this?
I think that's the feeling I would actually have.
Yeah.
I would also feel like I would just,

(01:02:10):
I would have that little part of me that would play a movie
about how sad it was for, you know,
I don't wanna pick on any of the cats
because I want any of them to get eaten,
but I would be playing a little movie reel
about how sad it was for it.
And I would be feeling sympathy and compassion for it.
You would be feeling very sad.
But if you were, let's say you were an artist,

(01:02:31):
I am not an artist, but I do love drawing on occasion.
And when I draw, I put my emotions into it.
It means a lot to me.
I draw it, I love it, I feel the drawing.
I will look back on the drawing
and like feel the same things I was feeling when I drew it.
You sound like an artist.
Well, it means a lot to me.

(01:02:52):
I do not do it very often.
I have a total of like maybe 10 drawings that I did
at like really key points in my life.
Why don't you do it?
Because I don't feel like I need to right now.
I've usually it's like hard times.
Do you feel like you want to?
Like what if you just did it for the fun of it?
I would love to be able to just draw for the fun of it.

(01:03:14):
Why aren't you able to?
I haven't had the time.
What keeps you from it?
I bought watercolor paints and watercolor paper.
And I have it, it's like new in the package.
And I'm every day, I'm like,
maybe tonight's gonna be the night
I'm gonna sit down and paint.
And I just, it just never happens.
I'm a mom.

(01:03:35):
You should do that.
I should.
Yeah, I should.
You can be a mom and also be yourself.
Yeah, that is very true.
But getting back to that drawing,
the book with my drawings in it, if somebody,
this is a weird example,
but if somebody took that and ate it,
I would be very-

(01:03:55):
Or burned it.
Or burned it.
I feel like burning is kind of like,
you literally were trying to, like,
I'm trying to use the cat example.
So somebody took your cat and ate it,
you're very sad about it.
Somebody took my drawing book and ate it,
I'm very sad about it.
And that's not right that they did that.
But the reason why it's not right is because it was mine

(01:04:18):
and I loved it.
And that's why it's wrong.
Do you see what I'm saying at all?
Like how-
I think I'm a little bit lost in the weeds.
Okay, you're lost in the weeds.
Let me simplify it.
I tend to kind of, okay,
so this is back to the,
we have the law of God written on our hearts
and animals do not.
So why then is it okay for us to eat animals?

(01:04:41):
I'm getting confused.
Okay, okay, okay, okay.
And you said, well, it's not because if somebody ate
your cat, that would be terrible.
And I'm saying that would be terrible
because you love the cat.
It's not because it's an animal.
Maybe we're talking about side topics
that don't really apply.
What is it that you are actually,
like what's the feeling inside?
What are you actually looking for?

(01:05:02):
What are you asking about?
There's a comparison between humans and animals.
What's the point of that comparison?
Like what's the nugget of where you're going with it?
We have the law of God written on our hearts
from your perspective, animals do not.
And I would say if by that you mean some version
of we are self-aware and we are able to look at ourselves

(01:05:23):
and say, does this fit me?
Does this feel like something that I should do?
Does this feel like something I want to do?
Does this feel like something that's going to be uplifting?
Whatever the standards I have for myself,
because it's different for everybody,
animals can't do that because they're not self-aware.
So therefore, if that's what you mean by
we have the law of God written on our hearts
and they do not, then I agree completely.

(01:05:45):
I just don't know what you mean by it.
Okay, I think I remember where we were at.
Super.
You were saying that you think animals do
have a sense of right and wrong.
I may have generated a rabbit trail there
because what I'm talking about is that a mother leopard
is not going to eat her cub.
Generally speaking, there's always exceptions to the rule.
And so it's probably a side trail

(01:06:05):
because we can both agree that that's instinct.
Even though it's affected by other upbringing
and stuff like that, still mostly it's instinct.
Okay, so to pull it around,
I believe that God created man in his image
and that he created us with a purpose.
What do you think it means?
Or you know what, I should let you finish, I'm sorry.
God created man in his own image and with a purpose.

(01:06:27):
With a purpose.
Animals do not have that purpose.
And I'm just trying to understand how your belief
of who God is could explain the differences
between how we are set apart from creation as humans.
How do you explain that with your beliefs?
I don't feel like we are.

(01:06:48):
My view on humans versus nature versus everything
has shifted so much.
I think that we're all made out of the same substance.
And I think that each of us play a different role,
whether it's humans or animals or whatever.
And I think that when the animal physically dies,

(01:07:09):
the essence, the energy, whatever it is
that was that animal, that echoes of that,
still exist in the universe.
Same with a tree, same with a rock.
It makes a difference in the universe around it.
And the echoes of that difference.
It's just nature.
The animal dies and it just is.
Okay.
Everything is nature.

(01:07:29):
Everything is literally is a part of nature.
Like we see humans as being this,
almost like we came from another planet.
Because it's like God made the earth and he made it all.
And then he packaged it up and he put a stamp on it.
Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.
At least this is how I saw it.
Then he's like, okay, now it's time for us
to ship some humans in there
to caretake this whole thing we made.

(01:07:51):
So in that perspective,
I saw myself as separate from nature.
Not even taking into account that I came into being
just in the same way that these animals came into being.
I'm just as much a part of this planet, this earth,
the cycles that is supported by and comes from
in whatever way you wanna say.

(01:08:12):
And I'm not talking at all about evolution.
I'm talking about just in here and now.
We eat food, you do the thing.
The sun takes water into the clouds,
clouds rain water down, the cycle.
The person eats, has sex, grows another baby.
That baby eats, has sex, grows another baby.

(01:08:33):
I'm just saying that I'm no different
than the animals in that biologically.
Yeah.
And so therefore,
I don't see myself as separate from them anymore.
But I do have awareness of myself
and I have an ability to observe them and to study them
and to think about them and to name them.
And that's cool.
Does that make me,
like, is that what you mean when you say in the image of God

(01:08:55):
is that self-awareness?
Because it can't be the biological parts.
Well, I think it's also that he breathes breath into us.
Like we have breath of God in us.
But you're not talking about physical breath
because animals also have breath.
No, no.
So you're talking about self-awareness.
Right, so I might be beating this animal to a pulp.

(01:09:19):
I'm gonna call PETA.
I guess I still just cannot comprehend
how you're talking about, like,
it's just kind of the cycle of life.
And it's all one thing.
But then why do we instinctually know
that it's wrong to kill another human
but it's not wrong to kill an animal?
Not everybody does.

(01:09:39):
And some people think it's wrong to kill an animal.
Some people instinctively know it's wrong to kill an animal.
A lot of people think that.
A lot of people think that a human that kills an animal
should get the death penalty just as much as,
or maybe not the death penalty, I'm being exaggerating,
but I'm just saying that's just how you see it.
And that's how I used to see it.
And to me, it's just like, there's a lot of reasons
that a human kills another human

(01:10:01):
that I have no problem with.
A lot of reasons.
And there's a lot of reasons I would kill another human.
I believe, I've never killed a human
and I don't know how I would feel,
but I feel like if it was in defense of somebody
that I loved that could not defend themselves,
well, I would joyfully do it.
I feel like I can't imagine having
a different response than that.

(01:10:21):
But I won't know unless I'm there.
But there's a lot of reasons that it would be the right thing
for one person to kill another person.
That doesn't mean it's the right thing for the other person.
The other person has a different worldview
and maybe their actions are completely justified
based on something that may be something erroneous.
Who knows?

(01:10:41):
But that's all they know.
They're still doing the best they can.
So, and again, this breaks down in certain situations
and works in other situations.
I'm not trying to make a ironclad rule for everything.
I'm just saying that there's a lot of reasons
to kill a human and a lot of reasons not to.
And there's a lot of reasons to kill an animal.
There's a lot of reasons not to.

(01:11:01):
Like to me, it is sin to kill an animal for no reason.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
It would be a sin to me because it would go against
what I know to be right for me.
Yeah.
I've seen lots of boys kill little defenseless animals
because it was fun to.
And in their culture, there was nothing wrong with it

(01:11:21):
because it's just an animal.
It's just an animal.
But I believe now that the same awareness
that is behind my eyes is also behind
that little bird's eyes.
It's not self-aware, but it's still made out of God.
It's still experiencing and having thoughts.
It's having some sort of thoughts.
I believe trees have thoughts.
They're not thoughts like ours.

(01:11:43):
You know, you can see what a tree's reaction time is
by watching how long it takes for it to react
to a temperature change.
Like they're just completely different beings,
but they're just as much alive.
And so why wouldn't they have tree thoughts?
And so when the tree dies, those tree thoughts,
now we're getting back into the metaphysical,

(01:12:04):
the soul of the tree, it the echo of the tree,
the effect of that tree existing,
which also I believe contains thoughts
because why wouldn't it?
That's a fantasy though, because who knows?
To me, it's just fun to see it that way.
And it makes sense to like to my emotions.
I'm not married to it though.
Yeah.

(01:12:24):
Well, I don't really know what to say about that.
Well, one thing that someone said to me recently is,
no, someone, one thing that dad said to me recently
is don't forget that you know my perspective really well,
and I have no idea what yours is.
So I was just like, actually, that's a really good point.
And I'm gonna keep that in mind.

(01:12:45):
Sometimes when you get to the end of a question
and you're not sure what the next question is,
it's just time, it's like you have all of the information
that you want on that.
And then as you think about it in the next days or weeks
or months or whatever, all of a sudden,
something will come to your mind and be like,
oh, what about this?
And that's just how conversations work.

(01:13:06):
Oh, I'm sure I'm gonna think about that.
I'm gonna listen to this.
I'm gonna be like, oh, I need to ask him that.
And no conversation is ever over.
So do you have more questions?
Oh, I do have another question I wanna ask you about.
In the podcast with Mariah, you were talking about relativity.
Relativity, in what sense?
Well, you guys were talking about the elephant

(01:13:26):
and the blind guys.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, perspective.
Okay, relativity perspective.
Yeah, the perspective that everything is relative.
And I just wanted to add, well, the perspective of...
The perspective that perspective is relative.
Yeah.
So anyways, I wanted to ask you, what do you think about relativity?

(01:13:47):
And like, I don't know.
I think that something either is or it isn't.
And I think that perspective is completely subjective.
Perspective is completely relative to the perceiver.
Everybody looks through a different window at the things in front of them.

(01:14:08):
Everybody has a different...
Their senses tune differently.
They have different experiences that explain these senses that they pick up.
The vibrations.
Vibrations in light, vibrations in sound, vibrations in physical matter.
All the different vibrations that our body picks up, we interpret those.

(01:14:29):
That only exists the way it exists to me because of all the interpretations that I've built,
what I see around.
For instance, somebody who is raised without square corners.
If you are raised and you never see a square corner in your life, and then you are introduced
to square corners, you won't be able to see them.
Your eye will not be able to make sense of it.

(01:14:50):
If all you've ever seen is round, that was something I read once about some super remote
African tribe that they didn't experience square things because they lived on planes,
had round huts.
I don't know if it's true or not.
And they literally couldn't see.
But what I do know is that in my conversations with people, I'm becoming more and more viscerally

(01:15:13):
aware that what you see and what I see is a slit through a fence.
And whatever we see going by that slit is only a part of what's actually out there.
Nobody can see anything fully.
I don't believe because our brains don't inhabit infinite space.
We can't, we live in a three dimensional reality.

(01:15:36):
I don't believe that God exists in a three dimensional reality.
I do believe that God also exists in a three dimensional reality because here we are.
But God does not only exist in a three dimensional reality.
And I know that my brain cannot fathom of anything outside of a three dimensional reality,
whether smaller or bigger.
I can try to.
I read a book called Flatlander, which is a super fun little tiny story about a guy

(01:16:00):
that lives in a two dimensional world and starts to have interactions with beings in
three dimensions.
And it's really interesting and it helps me like think about it in a different way, but
I, my brain can't actually comprehend of it.
And so I can only think about it.
So you think there is truth.
Yes.
But we can't fully know the truth because we can only see things from a very small point

(01:16:25):
of view and from our vantage point.
Therefore we can't know.
We can't know everything about anything.
No human knows everything, not even about anything.
There's always some aspect of it that is outside of our awareness.

(01:16:46):
That's, we are limited.
We're finite beings.
We cannot know everything.
So when you say, this is what this looks like to me, I trust that what you're describing
to me, you actually see.
If I look at it, it's probably going to look completely different because I haven't had
the same upbringing you have.
I don't have the same language.
I don't have the same experiences, the same biases, all of the things that make us, give

(01:17:09):
us a unique personality.
I still believe you're looking at something that's really there, something that is, you're
looking at truth and you're explaining it in the best way your emotions can understand
it.
And maybe you're looking at something that's way beyond anything you can ever hope to understand.
You're just doing the best you can.
And the more I listen to those stories, the more shape it gives me to the world around

(01:17:31):
me.
As long as I'm human, I will never know everything.
I will never, I will always be at the very beginning of understanding because I believe
that when we're not in a three dimensional biological existence, we're going to have
the ability to comprehend in different ways that we can't even imagine.

(01:17:51):
Yeah.
It makes sense to me that this isn't all there is.
It can't be.
When I step out of it, I'm going to be able to understand things in a way that I wasn't
able to understand before and then I still won't know everything.
Probably maybe, I don't know.
I know I can't, I know I don't know.
So to me, I see Christianity and like the things that Jesus said and I see these other

(01:18:14):
religions and I think those cannot, they cannot all be true.
They literally contradict each other on a level that's like beyond, oh, it's just a
different perspective, you know?
Yes.
So like, I mean, either you just believe that everyone is right, even though their beliefs

(01:18:37):
contradict each other.
Yes.
Or you believe that you're right or they're right.
Yes.
Okay.
And you're looking for what comes to me in response to that.
Yeah, it's not really how I see that.
Yeah.
I think I just have to say the same thing again.
I don't think that everything's right.

(01:18:58):
I think we're all looking at the same thing.
That's what I think.
I don't think everything's right.
I don't think you're right.
I don't think anyone's right.
I think that you're doing the best you can with everything you know, everything you've
seen, every experience you've had personally, everything you've been taught, all of it put
together, you are taking that full picture and you are being honest with it.

(01:19:21):
And you are saying, this is what feels right to me.
This is what I see.
This is what feels like truth and you're walking in that without looking back, without hesitation,
without guessing, second guessing yourself.
That's what I see.
And I believe you're looking at something that's real.
And I believe that the LDS missionary also is doing the best they can with everything

(01:19:45):
they've learned, as well as the Hindu priest, as well as the Germanic Raider of yesteryear.
I believe that everybody is looking at everything they can see to the best of their ability,
doing the best they can to figure out how they fit in and how they can be their best
self.
I don't believe that everything everyone believes is true.

(01:20:08):
Absolutely not.
I believe that most things that most people believe is probably partially true at best,
but we are doing the best we can.
Partially right, partially wrong.
That's kind of what makes sense to me.
What about, and I'm sure you've thought of this before.
Something always shifting, always trying to look at, what is it that I don't see yet?
I know you look inside yourself and say, what is it that I'm missing?

(01:20:31):
What do I not see here?
Help me, Jesus.
Help me see the thing I don't see.
I hope you do that.
Of course you do that.
I mean, in the like...
You're human.
How could you not?
Okay.
What are we missing?
Like I don't have that feeling.
In just my perspective.
You think that you know everything?
No, but I don't have a feeling that like there's something missing that I'm just not getting.

(01:20:52):
Like I do, I pray for...
But you have those feelings.
You have times where you say, what am I missing here?
This is so confusing.
Help me see.
Okay.
I do have times where I'm confused and I...
And you ask for guidance.
You ask for help.
And then your perspective shifts.
So what I'm saying is that we're all constantly growing and shifting.

(01:21:13):
We're all, every single person, that's honest.
And there are people out there that aren't honest, I'm sure.
There's all sorts and types, but I can't...
I have no idea about those.
I can't even relate.
And maybe I'll get to have a good conversation with somebody who's actually doesn't believe
what they're saying, knows they don't believe it.
I'd love to have that conversation because I'd love to get inside that brain and be like,

(01:21:36):
why then?
Why do you say it?
Like what would be the point of...
But most people, everyone I've ever talked to actually believes is actually doing the
best they can with everything they have.
And I believe was made in the image of God.
So to me, the God I know isn't trying to figure it out as they go.

(01:21:57):
They already know what to do.
It is creation.
It is love.
God is love.
That means something different to me than it's ever meant.
God doesn't have to figure out how to love.
God is love.
God doesn't figure out how to create.
God is creation.
God is himself and boom, creation happens.
God is itself and boom, love happens.
I know that when I want to do something, I do it without question.

(01:22:23):
And I'm honest with myself the whole way through.
I have my eyes wide open.
And when there's that thing inside that says, this isn't what you wanted to do, I say, oh,
I just learned something about myself.
I don't have any shame for it.
Even if it's yelling at somebody, even if it's screaming in one of the boy's faces because

(01:22:45):
I'm so angry because they're being so disrespectful and taking away from me.
And it's always about protecting myself, even as a parent.
That's what it actually comes down to.
But now, instead of being like, how dare you?
It's just like, oh, that's not what I want to do.
Oh, interesting.

(01:23:06):
I just learned something.
And it's just joyful.
It's all joyful.
Anyway, I don't know why I went into that.
I guess it's because it's a profound thing for me.
But we're all shifting and changing.
We're all doing the best we can.
That's how the world looks to me.
And I believe that a thing is true or not.
You look up at the sky, and it's the color that it is.

(01:23:28):
But at the same time, you can read a science journal at a child's level and find articles
that explain very simply how color isn't actually what we perceive it to be.
In fact, it's opposite.
So no, the sky isn't blue.
It just appears that way.
And if you want to call it something else, I don't care.

(01:23:49):
We're both still looking at the same thing.
And my purpose here is not to convince you that you're looking at what I'm looking at.
My purpose here is to get a peek at what you're looking at, because it's always beautiful.
So what are you looking for?
What are you seeking in life?
Now?
Yeah.

(01:24:10):
Presence?
I would say if there's something I'm seeking right now, it is having more of my awareness
in the present moment, wherever I find myself.
Thinking less about the future in the past, worrying less, just being more present, being
here now.
So what's the?

(01:24:30):
But I don't know if I'd call that seeking.
What's the purpose though?
Because the more I do that, the more joy I find, the more beauty I find, the more life
feels like dancing.
Joy.
Sure.
That feels fair.
Just simplicity and yeah, joy.
Yeah.
Connection, conversation.

(01:24:52):
I would say if you want to talk about what I'm seeking in a more doing sense, it's this
right here.
What we're doing right here, that's what I'm seeking.
And it's just happening.
And here we are.
But if you're asking me what I was seeking, I was seeking myself.
That's what I feel like.
I felt disconnected from myself.

(01:25:13):
I didn't even know.
I didn't think I belonged here.
I was a sinful, broken, physical manifestation of the fall.
So in trying to understand you, I...
Need a bigger box.
Well, I'd kind of been looking into different things and I was like, he's new age.
And then, and then, and then...

(01:25:33):
That's funny though.
And then I looked into it more and I'm like, no, he's not.
Oh my gosh.
Do you want me to try to put myself in a box?
Are you being sarcastic?
No, no, no.
I feel like maybe, maybe I don't know what would come out.
Okay.
Yeah, go ahead.
Because I used to think of myself...
The last thing I remember thinking I am this, because I just don't think that way anymore.

(01:25:56):
Yeah.
The last thing I remember thinking was, oh my gosh, you're not going to like this at
all.
I shouldn't speak for you, but it's fun to.
Neo-Pagan Christian.
A Neo-Pagan Christian.
That's how I saw that.
I would say, I don't think, I mean, is anything truly invented?
But I mean, it came from, I looked up the terms.
One time Angela and I were just looking up different definitions of different things

(01:26:19):
because I was like, I need to figure out who I am.
Because I've been on a mission to figure out who I am for a long time and it's been a mess
because I didn't know who I was.
But the words Neo-Pagan and Christian all had like, I was like, that feels right.
That was then.
I don't feel that way now.
Not at all.
Yeah.
I mean, what does the word pagan mean?

(01:26:39):
I mean, talk about a loaded word.
Yeah, I don't even understand.
There was a time where I started to like be attracted because I had such a strong religious
upbringing, not just in the Jim Roberts group and Amish and dad's home church, like the
fellowships, all the different fellowships and permutations of it, which by the way,
I list them in the same thing, but they're wildly different than either of those.

(01:27:04):
Jim Roberts or Amish, dad did it very differently.
And he was very much a part of a flow that was created by not just him.
He would be part of other people's flows.
And when those flows didn't work out or agree, he didn't try to control the flows.
He just let them be.
And then as things changed, sometimes he would lose people and so whatever.
And it's just as this constant shifting, changing thing.

(01:27:26):
Beautiful.
Yeah.
Really beautiful.
And shapes a lot how my social life is becoming in a lot of ways.
It's kind of crazy, but it's amazing how much we hold on to who we were raised to be.
Yes.
And the beautiful parts.
Yeah.
And for me, all of mine were not beautiful.

(01:27:47):
Yeah.
I mean, for everybody, that's true, but you know, we had such a different experience and
I actually like, I know we're having it like the point of our conversation is like the
fight.
I mean, I don't like it's not to fight, but it's like, I just, if you could hear my prayers
for you, like if you could hear.

(01:28:09):
And what would happen if I could hear your prayers?
Do you think I don't know what they are?
I think that you would understand.
I think you would understand.
Why don't I understand?
What would I understand then that I don't understand now?
What do you want me to see?
When we were first talking on the phone and I said, I'm going to pray that you'll see
the truth.
And you said, who's truth?

(01:28:30):
My truth or your truth.
And that sounds like something I would say.
And in my mind, I thought, in my mind, I thought the truth, like I'm not praying that you'll
see my truth.
I'm praying that you'll see the truth.
But I thought he didn't like that.
I don't know how to speak your language, but in my mind, I thought he didn't like that

(01:28:53):
I said, I'm praying that you will see the truth.
You expect somebody not to like that because it feels, it should feel condescending.
Like how could it not feel condescending for somebody to say, I'm praying that you'll see
the truth.
Yeah.
Like, what if someone said that to you?
You'd be like, good for you.
Right.
But I didn't feel that way at all because I know that you don't mean it condescendingly

(01:29:15):
at all.
It didn't bother me in the slightest.
I also don't mean it.
You also said something at the beginning when I was talking about how I can't love you without...
I see words differently than you do.
Sure.
Every human does.
I see value in every word and I believe that I think words actually do reflect what's in

(01:29:39):
our heart.
And when we say words, they actually carry weight and they are, I think will be held
accountable for the words that we say.
I don't think they're meaningless.
I agree.
So that's why I, like, I know you talk about like talking around things because you don't
feel like you can actually say what you're trying to say.

(01:30:00):
I don't think that words are adequate to express emotion, but they are the best we have.
Words are extremely valuable and extremely important because they are about things that
are real, which are emotions.
But there are no words that exactly express what you want to express because every word
means something different to each person.

(01:30:21):
Even between, say, you and Opal, any one individual word has at least subtle differences in how
you understand it versus Opal.
Much more me, much more someone that was born in Nepal and raised in Czechoslovakia.
Why did I pick those countries?
I don't know.
So...
But Laurel, this is important because there's a lot of people that think that I don't think

(01:30:45):
words are important, that I think words are meaningless.
I did think that.
But what I'm saying is, since you brought that up, that's not actually how I see it.
I don't think that words have the same meaning to everybody and therefore humans everywhere
are always just trying to do the best they can to communicate the emotions they feel
to the people around them.
And it's never perfect.

(01:31:06):
That's the problem with language is that words mean something different to different people,
not that they're meaningless.
In fact, it's the opposite of meaningless.
Any word can mean almost anything.
And even if you go by popular, it doesn't matter how you look at it.
It changes over time.
Who is the arbitrator of what a word means?
Therefore, who am I to decide what you think a word means?

(01:31:27):
All I can do is the best I can to understand the emotion behind what you're saying.
The actual word itself is just a collection of sound waves.
The actual word itself, bleh, blem, that's just a collection of syllables, of letters,
however you want to look at it.
It's the thing in my emotions that I'm trying to express to you is what gives the word value.

(01:31:52):
And so the word only has as much value as what I'm trying to express.
It means something different to you.
You hear the word, you interpret it differently.
You're always going to come to at least a slightly different place, but words are not
worthless.
Okay.
That kind of helps me to understand your perspective a little bit.
I appreciate that opportunity to kind of think through it in a nutshell.

(01:32:14):
Okay.
So circling back around, trying to circle back around.
And I was saying, trying to express to you how I feel about you and like why I'm trying
to get you to understand or to see the truth.

(01:32:35):
And then that's how I love you.
And you said-
That's not what you said.
You said, I can only love you.
You didn't say that's how I show you love.
That's the only way.
Yeah.
That's the only way I can.
And so, okay.
So that kind of helps me a little bit.
You asked me, you used the word, you're not allowed.
And then I think you stopped yourself, but that kind of made me wonder if you do see

(01:32:58):
it as a religious thing.
I'm a Christian, therefore I have to come and try to evangelize you.
And it's more of an obligation.
I would love to just sit down and chit chat and talk about other things, but I have to
talk about this one thing because I'm not allowed to talk about anything else because
I'm a Christian.
That's not what I meant.
Is that what you're asking me?
Is that how I meant that?

(01:33:19):
I'm just wondering if like...
No, not at all.
Okay.
I was just trying to understand if you felt like you are obligated, there is something
obligating you.
And then I was going to say, what is obligating you?
And it was a whole rabbit trail.
That's why I stopped myself.
I was just like, no, I don't want to do that.
That makes sense.
And no, I do not feel obligated.
I feel compelled.
Yes.
But I feel compelled.

(01:33:39):
Then you answered that because then we talked about how when you see somebody that's about
to step in a bear trap and they can't see it and you know what's there and you know what
happens when you step in that bear trap and they're literally about to step in it.
What are you going to do?
Are you going to exert yourself in a way that compromises their own sovereignty over what

(01:33:59):
their body does and what they do and force them?
Because then we start entering the morality thing of what's right and wrong.
And it's just like...
Well, you can't physically force someone to see something spiritually, but I do have a
question.
Okay.
You can physically force someone to not step in a bear trap and that's easy.
So it breaks down there, but you get...
Yeah.
I'm just going to use the spirit of what I'm saying.
So what would it take for you to believe that Jesus is God and that He's the only way?

(01:34:28):
It feels like you just opened up an entire topic there because what do you mean by Jesus
is God?
Because by the definitions I've been giving of God, I would also believe that Jesus is
God and you don't mean it that way.
And what do you mean that He's the only way?
Because now we're going to start getting into Bible and the place that we give the Bible

(01:34:49):
in each of us individually in our lives as whatever its place is.
And I'm super willing to go there, but that's where that question takes us because you're
describing an entire...
Like the entire core of Christianity and the Christian faith, which is multifaceted, which
is super in depth, which has a huge history for both of us and we see it differently.

(01:35:12):
And I believe the world looks the way I see it simply because when I open my eyes and
look around, it looks the way I see it.
So it would take me opening my eyes and looking around and seeing it differently to believe
that it's different.
And the way I see Jesus and the way I see God and the way I see the Bible and the way
I see prophecy and the way I see every hot button topic is because I opened my eyes and

(01:35:37):
I looked around and that's what I saw.
That's it.
I'm not trying to believe something.
I'm simply believing the truth of the world around me as I see it based on every experience
I've had from the day I was born until now.
So all it would take is me seeing something that shifted the way the world looks and then
the world would look different to me.

(01:35:59):
And that's why I have conversations because I'm always looking for that shift.
What's next?
Because the whole world looks so different now and I'm just like, I know from everything
I've seen, I know this doesn't just end.
This just continues.
No matter how much I learn about no matter what topic, I believe that I'm only at the
very beginning of what is potential to learn about that.

(01:36:20):
I think that learning is infinite, as infinite as the universe is, as infinite as God is.
How about that?
And if we want to get into something a little bit juicy just to see what happens to you
at what your reaction is, this is fun for me.
I believe that when we die, we are reborn because that's the pattern I see emotionally,

(01:36:41):
physically, in every way that I look.
My eyes open and I'm able to see some nature of what I'm looking at.
What I see is our cycles where you grow, you learn emotionally.
Emotionally is how I experience the world.
So that's what makes the most sense to me.
I grow and I learn and I learn and then things start getting really uncomfortable and I start
getting really uncomfortable and then I realize now that feeling, I know that feeling.

(01:37:05):
It's just that I see the world differently now and my actions don't line up with how
I see it and so my shell is too tight.
I'm like in a shell or in a cocoon.
I have to break it off, let go of how I saw the world and then it all shifts around me
and it's just like, oh my goodness.
All of these things that I believe are just a conglomeration of whatever makes sense as

(01:37:26):
I'm just opening my eyes and saying, I'm not going to choose to believe something because
I think I'm supposed to believe it.
I'm going to open my eyes and I'm going to look around me.
I'm not going to be afraid that I'm going to get it wrong.
I'm not going to be afraid that I'm going to go to hell.
I'm done living in that fear.
I'm going to open my eyes.
I'm going to look around me and I'm going to seek in each moment to bring all of my
awareness and consciousness to this moment, to where I am and how basically how what I'm

(01:37:51):
looking at is God.
Like really, that's what I do because I'm always thinking about this stuff and how the
atoms move and how the, and it's very spiritual to me.
I'm not at all an atheist.
I'm not at all, you know, to me, I'm just exploring God, God self.
I'm saying God self because I don't want to say itself or himself because himself is serving
you and itself is not, you know what I'm saying?

(01:38:13):
It's just like, I don't want to polarize it because to me, the, the, even to put a gender
to God is to, is to laughingly miss the point of the whole thing.
Yeah.
But it also isn't because it's very human because how do we see the world from a perspective
other than our own?
Yeah.
I just don't have that perspective anymore because I'm better than you.

(01:38:33):
Thank you for laughing.
I actually used to feel that way, believe it or not.
Not then you.
Oh, I never thought I was better than you.
Yeah.
But I thought we as a, I've, dude, I've always just looked at myself.
Christianity was still like stuck in this box that you like perceived as a Christian.
I was better than everybody else.
Oh, really?
I'm very much so.
Yes, Laurel, you have an idea.

(01:38:54):
Oh no, I shouldn't tell you what your idea is.
Are you telling me what I think?
I'm trying to.
It's not working, Laurel.
I hear plenty that there's a lot of people that believe that I was never a Christian,
that I never believed it.
I can tell you that that's just not true.
Like I was bought and sold.
I was, I was a zealot.

(01:39:17):
I felt it from the middle of my guts, just, just longing for Christ and this communion
with the Holy Spirit.
I definitely experienced that.
Okay.
And I still experience it now.
So I want to, I want to, I want to talk about that.
Great.
I just brought up a couple different topics that you can find out.
Yeah, I was going to go somewhere else, but now I want to talk about that.

(01:39:40):
I actually talked about this in the letter.
Do you think that maybe you did truly know the Lord?
What are you doing?
I'm having very like suspenseful eyebrows.
I'm sinking into the suspense of not knowing what you're going to say.
Okay.
No, that's okay.
I'm not going to do that.
No, it's fine.

(01:40:00):
You can do that.
I'm halfway playing.
Weird eyebrow twitch.
Okay.
So do you think that you did truly know the Lord?
You had him in your heart and that maybe you started serving sin rather than the Lord and
that that like that, that's what it does.
It separates you from God.

(01:40:21):
And then you started feeling this turmoil and like going through all this stuff, like
I can imagine someone that has the Lord in their heart, truly believes and they're walking
with the Lord and then they start sinning in a way that it separates them from God.

(01:40:43):
And then that would be agony because you would be living a complete lie.
Do you think maybe that's like what happened?
No, that's not what I think.
Okay.
That's not how it feels to me.
When I look back, instead of feeling the graph that you're kind of drawing of spirit, it's

(01:41:03):
almost like you're drawing a spiritual health graph where it's like, okay, you had a relationship,
but then something happened and you lost a connection with that relationship.
And because of the sin, you know, whatever it is, but that there's this graph and the
graph to me feels like starts out not aware, just reacting to everything that happens around

(01:41:25):
me because that's how my life started.
And everyone's life starts that way, but that was a very intense feature of my life was
that constant shifting and change where I was always under somebody's authority and
I was always being taught and being told what I'm doing wrong.
Like it's this constant thing and you take someone with a chameleon personality and it

(01:41:46):
just made it so that there wasn't even an awareness of anything other than you do the
thing.
You just do the thing.
I would have done very well in North Korea.
Thank you very much.
We've been a model citizen and those are filler words.
And I'm learning so much about how I talk.

(01:42:07):
You have, you are bringing an incredibly complicated conversation.
So I'm rambling.
No, it's, it's, it's so valuable.
Like it's, it's, it's a, it's a super deep compliment coming from me, but crap.
You lost your train of thought.
Of course I did.
So you were telling me how you don't feel like that graph.

(01:42:28):
Once I, once I start coming online with consciousness, with being like that flicker of it's like,
it's like, what's that movie?
I think it's soul where there's that first flicker and it's like the little sparkles
start coming.
It's like the little baby consciousness.
Okay.
I don't know.
Anyway, once that started where it's just like, Oh, I'm alive.

(01:42:52):
I'm here.
I'm me.
I don't have to do what everyone thinks I have to do.
Like what an incredibly glacially slow process that was for me to realize it.
But as I started to come to realize, come, come awake, the graph, the spiritual health
graph feels like it has been a bell curve, like flat agonizingly, slowly, slowly, slowly.

(01:43:16):
It started and I've learned cause I learned so many things that have stuck with me.
Faith, like just trust, just, just trust, profound abstract trust, charity, joy.
These are all things that were instilled through dad and many other people.
Yeah.
And so it's like a really gradual, actually, I'm the truth is I didn't really start to

(01:43:42):
come awake to that till maybe five years ago.
That's the problem.
Okay.
It's just so interesting to me, honestly, to realize that I was a full grown man without
even a flicker of consciousness of, I just didn't see, I didn't understand.
I didn't know that I could just actually be me and do whatever I wanted.

(01:44:02):
I didn't think that was part of the reality I had been born into.
I didn't get to, I had to believe this certain way.
I had to see the world this way.
Granted, it was all my stories, but I thought I was supposed to see them that way.
I didn't realize that words don't mean the same thing to everybody.
I didn't realize that, you know what I mean?
That when Leonard tells me that everything that I do belongs in the trash, I didn't know

(01:44:27):
that I had, that I had a choice to not see it that way.
I didn't know that what he actually meant was you have to look for strength beyond just
the ability of your thoughts and of your emotions.
You have to look for something deeper than that.
And I'm sure that's what he meant, but boy, howdy did he have a terrible way of saying

(01:44:48):
it to a 11 year old.
So you don't feel like, so you were-
I started to come out of that.
I started to, because the pain got so intense of just living my life every day, going through
the motions, being like, everything hurts.
I don't understand what's going on and I'm frustrated and I'm afraid and everything is

(01:45:09):
going wrong and nobody even gets me.
No one understands, no one knows what's going, like what the heck is going on?
And that pain becomes so intense that all of a sudden I start to say, oh, maybe I need
to be a little bit less afraid of what's going to happen if I fuck up.
Sorry.
Maybe I need to be a little bit less afraid of what's going to happen if I do the wrong

(01:45:32):
thing.
And I should start asking, what is it that I want to do?
Because I've never asked myself that question.
Usually we ask ourselves that question as a kid.
Yeah.
I've never asked myself that question.
Never knew that question existed.
I thought that was evil.
I thought it was selfish and sinful to ever ask the question.

(01:45:54):
So as I started to come awake, everything that I learned from my time in India, from
all of that stuff, all of the valuable parts of the world view, the worldview that I had
developed, started to fit in to the whole big picture.
And it started to make sense.
It's like, oh, living by faith, now I can start to understand this, the importance of

(01:46:18):
community.
Now I can start to understand this because I'm starting to understand myself.
Why do I react this way?
Why do I have these emotions?
Why do I blame my pain on the people around me?
I didn't know to ask that.
It obviously was their fault before and I didn't know that I was blaming it on them.
Just felt like being asleep.
Felt like just not being conscious.
I was unconscious.
As I have become more and more conscious over the past five years, I would say 12, somewhere

(01:46:45):
between 12 and 15 years ago was the day where I said, in order to ask the questions I need
to ask, I need to accept the reality that I might go to hell because it felt like betrayal.
It felt like walking away because that's how, imagine just right now choosing to say, you
know what?

(01:47:06):
I don't know if God's real.
I don't believe in God.
I'll believe it if I see it, but none of this has ever worked for me before and I don't have
any idea what's happening, where I'm going.
In order to figure this out, I'm going to have to shed everything that I know because
I didn't know where one stopped and the other started.
That's why I finally had to come to the point where I faced the reality that I may be damning

(01:47:30):
my eternal soul.
I may be blaspheming.
I'm not the type of person that, I don't want to blaspheme.
I don't want to do the wrong thing.
I just want to know.
I want to feel peace.
I don't want to be chasing something that I have no idea what it is.
So I just dropped it all.
And also another reason I did that is because as I started to drop the things, my understanding

(01:47:56):
of morality started to change and I know dad well enough to know because of past experiences
that he was going to feel like, let's say I was in a polyamorous relationship with more
than one person and saying I was a Christian, that would put him in a much more difficult
spot than if I was just like, I am not a Christian.

(01:48:18):
I don't believe it.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
And since that was partially true, it was very brief that I really let go of it because
as soon as I let go of it, that also didn't feel right.
It was just like Christianity is part of who I am.
It's part of what makes up my worldview.
So rejecting it entirely.
And then it's just been a journey since then.

(01:48:40):
But that was one of the reasons that I just made the break.
Also because of my personality, when I feel a need for a change, I do something big and
it makes change happen.
And then when the car's moving, then you can start steering.
But when the car doesn't feel like it's moving, you're just like, I need something, momentum
here.
So I would do things like throw away my entire CD collection or just things like that because

(01:49:04):
that's how my Christian life was.
It's just like, oh no, I'm a sinner.
I'm in sin.
I'm having all these evil thoughts.
I'm masturbating a lot.
And it's just like, I feel like I'm going to hell.
These are all things.
That's how the world looked to me.
And it's just like, I have to change.
I can't keep doing this.
And so I would just try to...
There was a time where I was starting to cut myself because I was just like...

(01:49:30):
It all felt mixed into that whole thing of this is when I was in the Jim Arbors group
as a young teenager.
And it was just like, I would write down all the things, just the things like I'm thinking
about naked girls.
I'm having evil thoughts.
They're evil thoughts.
I'm a young teenager.

(01:49:50):
And I believe that imagining a girl naked is evil because that's what I was taught.
And as a teenage boy, I can tell you every single teenage boy that has natural biological
functions is going to be pictured trying to imagine naked girls.
That's just part of being a teenage boy.
And so my sense of morality changed.

(01:50:12):
And wow, am I still trying to explain that thing that I started a long time ago?
This is interesting.
I'm very interested.
So anyway, those are some of the reasons that I did it that way.
But that's just what I was conscious of at the time.
I shouldn't say that.
That's what I remember now being conscious of at the time.
I'm also aware that my perspective, how I feel now can easily shift how I remember things

(01:50:38):
feeling.
So I'm doing the best I can.
That sounds terrible.
What does?
Oh, just the feeling of feeling condemned and feeling like you just have to stop, but
you just can't.
And therefore, you just know you're going to hell.
Yep.
And I read the Bible.
I memorized a good portion of the Bible.

(01:51:00):
I knew the Bible so well.
In the Jim Arbors Group, the only text I was allowed to read other than writings of Jim
Arbors Group brothers and sisters was the King James version of the Bible.
That's it.
I'm actually kind of jealous of like, I wish you could impart your knowledge of the Bible
onto me because I struggle with just reading something and learning it, memorizing and

(01:51:28):
absorbing it.
I learned by doing and telling other people about it.
What I was going to say about that is though, that is not Christianity.
What is?
What you described.
Oh, other than describing?

(01:51:48):
Yes.
That's like feeling, you're feeling the condemnation of your sin and you're feeling like, but Jesus
frees us from that bondage.
I've experienced that before, just feeling like, I just can't do it.
And the reality is we just, we can't do it in our own strength, but we can through God,

(01:52:12):
through Jesus.
But I kind of just had a, this is going to be really, I don't know.
I don't know how this is going to go.
I don't know how to put it into words.
Just start.
You can always give up and we can just chop a whole part.
Doesn't matter.
I guess I'm just wondering how much of you rejecting, well, I mean, now you're saying

(01:52:33):
like you do embrace part of it, but that's a whole nother topic.
I would say I embrace all of it.
I would say that I had to reject everything, but ultimately what I was after and what I
found is embracing everything.
I just, I don't understand how you can embrace everything, but reject things that, that Jesus

(01:52:56):
says that's contradictory to what you believe.
I don't understand that.
I believe that I'm going to spend the rest of my life learning and growing and changing
and shifting and seeing the world in new ways, more mature, more playful, more joyful, more

(01:53:16):
trusting, more kind.
That's just, that's the trajectory I'm on.
Do you think though that you're going to keep searching because you feel like you can't
be satisfied with something that doesn't allow you to live the kind of life that you want
to live?

(01:53:37):
What kind of life is that?
The life you're living.
So how can I not be satisfied if I am living the kind of life I want?
No, I'm just wondering, you said you were going to keep searching and keep learning.
No, no, no, no, no.
Cause you asked me about what I'm searching for.
So I was just, I was referencing that.
I'm saying if there's something I'm searching for, when we moved into this house is when

(01:54:00):
the final part of me coming over that feeling of coming awake inside me of being like, oh,
I'm responsible for my actions.
Everything that happens to me is a result of my actions, not the people around me.
They're doing the best they can.
I'm responsible for my actions.

(01:54:20):
And it no longer felt like that word responsible carried a weight of externally levied consequence.
So God's consequence, the judgment day, whatever that meant to me, that's how it felt to me.
So I need to rewind buttons.
I can remember where I was.

(01:54:41):
Where were we?
Okay.
I, I guess I'm just wondering if you left the faith because you wanted to live a life
that was contradictory to the faith.
Absolutely not.
What you call leaving the faith.
Or maybe I should just say, I mean, I just, it all feels different to me.

(01:55:01):
It doesn't feel like I left anything.
Well, I, I do see it as different.
I'm trying to answer the question you're asking.
That's why I'm trying to use your language.
I do see it as different.
There's when you came out and said, I am not a Christian anymore.
And I do see that as quite different than like that.
Those are two different things.
When I stopped, when I came out and said, I'm no longer a Christian, that was the beginning

(01:55:24):
of me learning how to say no to anything, to anything.
And in order to learn how to say no to anything, I had to pendulate all the way over to saying
no to everything, which looked like whatever it looked like.
Nothing's ever the extreme that you think it is, but I still had to go through that
internal process in looking back.
That's the best way I can describe it.

(01:55:45):
Dropping Christianity was the beginning of me starting to say no.
I never learned how to do that as a kid.
That's how it feels to me.
That's when I started that process.
And then I had to go through a long, painful agonizing, I call it the dying times of learning
how to say no, because it feels like dying.

(01:56:07):
It feels like renouncing your faith, renouncing your family, renouncing yourself, renouncing
everything.
That's what it felt like to me.
It felt like saying no to all the things that I'd always done because I thought I had to
do to them to keep myself safe.
So now I don't know what's real and what's me.
And so I have to start saying no to everything.
It's the beginning of it.

(01:56:27):
And then the end of that journey was around the time we moved, is around the time when
I started to really become comfortable with saying no.
Did somebody, and hurting their feelings.
I have to respect my boundaries.
I never did before.
And when you start respecting your boundaries for the first time and people don't expect
it, it really hurts their feelings because it hurts all their wounds.

(01:56:49):
You develop the relationship you develop because of the wounds you bring to it.
And in order to pull yourself out of that codependency of I am here to manage your feelings
for you and you are here to manage my feelings for me.
If you do a thing that makes me mad, then you have to give account for it and you have
to apologize.
And if I do something that makes you mad, then I have to give account to it and I have

(01:57:11):
to apologize.
And if I do something that makes God mad, well, I better do something about it or I'm
going to have to give account to it and apologize for it on judgment day and it's going to be
too late.
Or I'm going to go to purgatory or Christianity is not one thing.
Christianity, the way you see it is one thing.
The way dad sees it is one thing.

(01:57:32):
It may be surprisingly different than you think, but maybe not.
But Christianity as a whole big thing depends on who you're talking to.
And I was raised, I always believed that somehow I knew something.
I had a truth that nobody else had.
And I realized that that doesn't fit me.
It doesn't match up with the reality of the world that I see around me.

(01:57:54):
Everybody else believes what they believe just as surely.
They come to it just as honestly as I do.
What gives me the right to be right beyond them other than that I feel like I am because
I have the book and the interpretation of the book and the whatever.
That's just how it feels to me.
So then after we moved in here to the forge and I made just had made enough of a mess

(01:58:16):
in my life saying no, that I finally knew, started to get a sense of what I actually
wanted and didn't want and who I was and what I wanted to do and what felt like art and
what felt like playing and why I was so miserable at sometimes and joyful at sometimes.
And I've didn't experience that a lot before, but senses of like happiness, I guess, like

(01:58:41):
achieving its goal or getting something cool or something like that.
That's not joy, but I got to the point where I had such an intimate relationship.
I had an intimate enough relationship with no was saying no when I felt like saying no,
right, wrong or otherwise, that I started to know what I actually wanted to say yes
to.

(01:59:02):
I started to get a sense.
I started to see things and be like, I would really like to do that.
I think I'll say yes to that.
And I say yes and then I would do it and then it would suck or it would hurt people's feelings
and wreck the whole world around me.
And so I'd be like, oh, well, I guess I didn't want to do that.
OK, I found learning.
I found a new experience, a new little piece to add to my worldview.

(01:59:26):
I may never experience that same situation again.
I just know something about myself I didn't know.
And then I'd be like, OK, so what do I want to do now?
Oh, I want to do that.
OK, I'm going to do that.
Do that.
Treasure.
That was fun.
That fits me.
That adds to my energy pool.
That adds to my joy.
And there was a point where I realized that I no longer have to say no to things.

(01:59:48):
There are times where I will say no, but I know myself.
I trust myself.
I know what I want.
And I know that I have no idea what I'm going to want in one minute from now.
But I know how to figure it out.
I know how to listen.
I know how to stop and listen to that still small voice, to that leading of whatever is
imprinted on my heart.
That always leads me towards connection, towards kindness, towards compassion.

(02:00:12):
And it always is held in joy.
There's always joy when I'm doing the thing that I want to do.
Not the thing that my wounds tell me I want to do.
Not the things that I think I want to do because I'm trying to mute out all the pain.
Because that's how I live.
That's how I operate it.
That's how a lot of people operate.

(02:00:33):
But I don't feel like I ever have to say no now.
There are times where somebody will put me in a position where I don't have the option
of saying yes.
But I'm always going to look for a way to say yes.
I don't know what's an example.
What's something that I should say no to?
Instead of saying no to that, I'm just going to say yes to something else.
How about that?
Okay.

(02:00:54):
And I really don't make plans.
I don't promise anything, positive or negative.
And that's a biblical thing.
Let's your yay be yay or nay be nay.
I'm just like, this is who I am right now.
I don't know how I'm going to feel then.
I don't know what's going to come up between now and then.
I can tell you what I'm most likely to be doing.
I can tell you if I have something on my calendar.
But other than that, let's see when we get there.

(02:01:17):
And that changes how people who don't have that concept, who don't see the world that
way, don't know what to do with that, then feel rejected and feel like avoided and stuff
like that.
And nothing could be farther from the truth.
But I also accept that me doing the thing that I feel like I need to do, like I want
to do, is sometimes going to make people feel like that's detracting from them.

(02:01:40):
And if it's true, then I'm going to learn something and be like, okay, well, that doesn't
fit me.
But if it's not true, and they just really want me to be a certain way, and I really
don't want to be that way, then that gives them an opportunity to look at themselves
and say, why do I feel this way?
Why do I feel all tore up inside because of how he responded?
And that's up to them if they do that or not.
And I don't worry about it.

(02:02:01):
I just be the best version of myself I can.
And realize that I see through a glass darkly, I see through a fence slit narrowly.
And one day, the fence of the limits of my physical sensory apparatus is going to blow
apart and I'm going to see the entire cat from whiskers to tail at the same time.

(02:02:21):
But right now, I'm going to enjoy the little sliver of it that I see as it goes by.
And I'm not going to worry about whether the tail causes the head or the head causes the
tail.
I'm going to appreciate the texture that I can see.
That feels like yes to me.
Yeah.
I don't have to say no, it's not a tail just because I only see an ear.
So I only see whiskers.

(02:02:44):
If somebody says, are you hungry?
And I am not physically feeling hungry, I'm not going to try to figure out a way to say,
yes, I am not hungry.
It's not a mind game.
It's a different way of looking at it where if somebody's like, oh, we want to go to the
beach and we want to do all this other stuff and I just don't feel like it, I don't have
to say, well, I don't want to go.

(02:03:04):
I can say, I feel like reading a book.
You guys have fun.
Like there's no no there.
Yeah.
But we feel like we have to say no.
Like that's how most people are taught to set boundaries.
And that's the way you have to start setting boundaries is by saying no, no.
But when you know yourself well enough, the no, although you may say the word no, the

(02:03:25):
feeling inside is really actually yes about something else because you're not afraid of
the thing you're saying no about.
I shouldn't say you because I'm speaking on me.
Right.
Thanks for listening to all that.
I don't know if I even stayed on topic.
You totally didn't.
But that's OK.
It was interesting to listen to.
I do have I have boy I don't know if what I do.

(02:03:48):
I do have a couple.
Yeah, I am.
But I do have a couple other questions.
I'm on your time.
So you do whatever you want.
OK.
So this is in regards to our other conversation we had on the phone.
And this is about spiritual stuff.
Sweet.
You like that topic.
Do you?
OK, so I see spiritual the spiritual world as light and darkness and good and evil, good

(02:04:12):
and evil.
From what I gathered, you do not see it that way to say that I do not see it that way would
be well.
But here's the problem.
So this is this is the problem.
If you want to understand my worldview, I have to talk from it.
And sometimes that's going to sound like I'm being intentionally confusing.
But I promise you I'm not.
I believe I see a joyful universe when I look around me.

(02:04:34):
I don't see anything to be afraid of physically, spiritually, emotionally.
None of it.
Even the scariest things I've ever seen.
They just don't look scary to me anymore.
And all of the fears that I haven't seen yet that are too scary for me to comprehend.
I'll let you know when I get there.
But the universe that I see isn't scary.
There is nothing.
But I'm not talking about scary because sometimes there is nothing evil.

(02:04:56):
OK, I thought it was a epic battle like fantasy storyline, epic battle between good and evil.
And that shaped how I lived my life.
I mean, what does it matter whether you enjoy this fleeting existence?
We have a a guts and blood battle we're facing on the spiritual realm of these forces of

(02:05:18):
darkness that are trying to take us down and deceive us and take us to hell, basically,
ultimately.
And we have to be vigilant and we have to fight and we have to keep oil in our lamps
and we have to like all this stuff.
This is what shaped it.
I don't see that anymore because I don't see it in the world around me.
And every time I talk to a bad person, give me enough time.

(02:05:39):
I'm going to find the gem of truth that's in there that's just hidden by so much pain.
That's what I find.
So that I'm not finding anything different than that.
As I experience the spiritual world through prayer, meditation.
Right.
I'm not finding any reason to see that the spiritual world is any different than that.

(02:06:00):
So basically you see it as it is all good.
But it's our perspective.
I actually wrote a little story about this.
Wait, you might have sent it to me.
Probably.
You probably sent it to me.
Yes, that was very interesting.
Hopefully I'm going to make that into a movie or like just a little, a little like I just
want to do something with it because that's how I see the world.

(02:06:22):
That's who God is to me.
That's who I am.
It's like in God's most basic elemental form where it is the infinite potential for everything.
And then in that potential for everything, God's creating and creates will because that's
what God does.
That's what God creates and there's a push and the push feels foreign.

(02:06:46):
And in order to have a push, there has to be a division.
And you can otherwise you can never experience the unlike anything else, texture of push
or of whatever it is that's more than or less than or inside of the pure infinite joy, the

(02:07:07):
pure infinite love, the pure infinite creation.
And that push forgot.
In that push, that exciting push, it just became everything.
And then the push became real and intense and scary.
And now we're fighting for existence.
We're pushing back against the universe, pushing against us.

(02:07:29):
And all the while, the universe, God is there holding us being like, it's okay, you're just
wrapped in the blanket.
You can hide and seek.
I'm just making up a story, obviously.
That obviously that's me, push is me.
I'm will, God is creation.
And then the moment came where I realized I'm pushing back against myself.

(02:07:55):
I'm pushing back against the natural course.
When I make decisions the way I've made them, of course, this is how my life is going to
shape up.
I'm fighting, but I'm just fighting myself.
And I've been taught my whole life that I have to be vigilant and gird myself with the
armor of righteousness and the shield of faith and the sword of truth and the breastplate

(02:08:18):
of righteousness.
So I'm in this pitched epic battle.
And then when I realized over time, I slowly realized I'm just fighting myself.
There's actually nothing to fight.
I've just been taught that there's something to fight.
Not even by somebody that was trying to teach me that.
That's just how I perceived everything.
That's the joke of it all is I'm blaming Leonard for believing that I'm trash for having crippling

(02:08:45):
imposter syndrome for most of my adult life.
But it's not his fault.
He did the best he could with what he had.
It's also not my fault.
I did the best I could with what I had.
I was a little kid looking for adventure.
I could have stayed with dad.
He never would have said that to me, but it didn't.
And that's made all the difference.
So I'm not in a battle.
Okay.
So I think I see what you're saying.

(02:09:07):
God is bigger than all that.
Because if evil exists, the way that I used to think about it was basically that Satan
is another God.
But really, the concept of evil cannot exist except that it is created by God.
It is also God.
And in everything else I see, there's two polarized sides.

(02:09:27):
And that's how balance works.
And so it's just like, that story doesn't make sense anymore.
Not with the world the way I see it, rather than the way I was trying to force myself
to see it.
So how do you, based on your perspective of what you think the spiritual world is, how
do you explain somebody that's demon possessed and manifesting foaming at the mouth and then

(02:09:48):
in the name of Jesus, they're delivered?
I believe that there are what appear to be external spiritual forces.
Maybe I shouldn't say what appear to be, but that's how I look at it.
They actually are external spiritual forces, but they also appear to be as they are because
they see themselves as they are.
For instance, I'm out in land I'm completely agnostic about.

(02:10:11):
I don't have firm opinions.
I'm just talking about what makes sense to me.
When someone dies, they go through, it's just one more cycle where you die and you're reborn.
I don't believe in reincarnation in the Western sense or in the Eastern sense.
That's a whole different topic.
That is a different topic.
That is actually very interesting.
But what makes sense to me is that if I die in fear, there's no reason, nothing that I've

(02:10:39):
ever seen anywhere shows me that I'm not going to come out and be reborn without the same
fear, without being in that same place.
So when I die, I'm going to experience waking up in a different dimension.
Call it heaven, call it purgatory, call it the fourth dimension, call it the galactic

(02:11:01):
enterprise of smasmar.
I'm going to wake up just like I have with every emotional death and birth, just like
I have, just like I watch a baby be born.
You wake up to a new reality and you start where you are.
To me, that's the only thing that makes sense.
And then I don't believe that my soul dies.

(02:11:21):
I don't believe my energy dies.
I believe that it just creation continues.
So you're thinking that that person maybe in their previous life died in fear and that's
what's happening?
When people die, it makes some sense to me that maybe their energy cluster, the cluster

(02:11:42):
of energy that is all of the experiences and emotions that they have, gets stuck in a place
that they believe.
Like, for instance, I believe that there are people that die and experience going to hell
because they believe in it.
And so that's what's created because they are creators.
We are all creators.
Everything we're doing, our emotion, we create with emotion.

(02:12:05):
You think and it happens.
Most often time.
What's visible to us is we make it happen with our hands or we encourage people with
our words and they make it happen.
But however you want to look at it, what humans are as creators, we create.
That's what we do.
Every one of us creates.
Some of us don't believe we can.
Some of us don't think we're creative.
Whatever.

(02:12:25):
But so I think that that's because we are pieces of God.
We are all part of the same substance and we can't help but create.
And so if you die and go into a metaphysical plane that is a different dimension, that
instead of being bound to this three dimensional laws of physics and stuff, that to me feels

(02:12:46):
arbitrary.
It feels like it exists because it exists, but it doesn't exist everywhere.
I believe there's more existence outside of the laws of physics existence.
And so when my consciousness leaves its tether to my biological form in this three dimensional
existence, my consciousness is then going to be in or wake up or be born into or back

(02:13:13):
into, however it looks, I don't know, a different dimension, a different plane, a different
quadrant, whatever you want to call it of existence.
And I'm going to be starting from where I left off, continuing the process of learning,
the growth.
And I don't think that ever ends because if it did, then I would have like, then what?

(02:13:36):
The idea of being in a static state rejoicing forever, joy doesn't exist without its counter
and everything.
Reed C.S. Lewis, he talks a lot about that.
So I think it's possible for one of those entities to somehow become entangled with
the emotional entity that is somebody else and take over and have this whole process.

(02:13:59):
Okay.
I'm so far out.
It's almost like an accident.
Like, oops.
It's like, it's like everything that people believe in exists somewhere.
And it's like, it's like a hologram because, you know, we, we hear people talk about this
as a hologram.
Oh, this is a hologram.
We live in the matrix and it's a hologram.
Well, in some sense, I actually believe that.
But in another sense, it's just as real as it seems.

(02:14:22):
But you could buy a hologram and you could create whatever you want.
It's not real to our perception from a three dimensional perception.
So from another perception, this also would just be a hologram because at the end of the
day, what I'm looking at right here is just little tiny particles of light orbiting around
nothing spinning around nothing at unimaginable speeds that don't even make sense.

(02:14:46):
Somehow we're able to start experiencing that and seeing that.
And we're even able to start working with it and read a little bit about quantum computing
or quantum teleportation.
Yeah, my husband is telling me about that.
Computers are about to change, bro.
That's a little bit.
I was like, I want to talk to Michael about that, but I don't know if I do want to.
A whole different topic.
We have a few different topics now.
Yeah.

(02:15:06):
Okay.
So I want to pursue, I want to think about all this stuff because I want to know too.
What do I think?
What does it feel like?
How about now?
So that doesn't really explain why they get freed in Jesus' name.
Why is it in Jesus' name they're delivered?
Why aren't there other ministries that are saying we're meditating them out of...
There are.
There are.
Okay.

(02:15:27):
But they describe them differently.
So I read a book called No Bad Parts, which is the textbook on internal family systems,
which is a psychotherapy model, which I had an aversion to immediately because I thought
psychotherapy was wrong.
Turns out it's just a way to try to figure out why your emotions and stuff works the
way it works.
But after the world that that showed me, the world that kind of opened up to me, it makes

(02:15:48):
sense to me that if you believe that the name of Jesus is going to heal you, it will.
If you have faith the size of a grain of mustard seed, you will be able to say to this mountain
move and it will move.
I believe that's true.
And I believe that it doesn't have some mystical thing to do with some magic God stepping in
and defying the laws of physics.

(02:16:09):
I believe it just simply is true because we are made in the image of God and our constraints
are that we don't see, we don't believe, we don't know.
We're doing the best we can with what we have.
The more we have, the more we're able to create.
So I think that if somebody believes that they're demonically possessed, whether or

(02:16:29):
not it's true, it's going to become true.
I know how strong the mind is and I know how strong it is when you have a crowd of people.
The reason that hypnosis, crowd hypnosis, trick hypnosis works is because the energy
that the people are giving to it makes it work.

(02:16:50):
The person knows how to form and shape that energy and they know how to suggest and they
know the triggers and different things like that.
They know how to manipulate the human emotions and stuff, but the person themselves is the
one that's hypnotizing themselves.
The crowd that believes and is giving all that energy, that energy is real.

(02:17:11):
It's actually like if we could see, if our eyes were able to receive different inputs,
you'd be able to see that energy surging and moving and you'd be able to see the whole
thing would look different because you'd be able to see someone that's dying on stage.
You see that there is no energy flowing to them, that's not the crowd's fault.

(02:17:31):
That stage needs to know how to pull that energy, but then they can use it to do real
things.
That's what makes sense to me, but I'm way out of school.
I don't know.
I would love to talk more about this stuff to kind of figure it out, but I don't believe
that there is an epic battle between good and evil because when I open my eyes and look
around, I don't see it in the world around me and I don't believe that something exists

(02:17:53):
outside of what I can see that is not in some way a reflection or patterned after something
I can see because that's not what I see.
There was a battle though.
It would be a pretty good strategy to convince people that there wasn't one.
If there was a battle between good and evil, wouldn't in every story, like let's look at

(02:18:14):
Star Wars.
In Star Wars, the authority is the Imperial army.
In Jesus days, the religious authority was the religious authority.
It was the religion of the time.
Well, in the spiritual world though, Satan is the prince of this world.
So it seems to me, I'm about to go way into blasphemy here.

(02:18:39):
We can stop if you want.
It's actually what the world looks like to me and it's tongue in cheek.
I tell stories.
Life is just a fantasy story to me and it's just, I don't know, it's just beautiful that
way and it doesn't, it's just, I don't try to.
I stopped trying not to.
You're about to say things are the opposite of the way we think they are.

(02:19:00):
I'm about to say, if you're saying, wouldn't it make sense?
I'm like, okay, I thought of that too.
And wouldn't it make sense that you would have a propaganda campaign that makes everything
look to the people who don't know better, to the civilians, the innocent civilians that
makes it look like you're actually the victim when you're the one that's trying to fuck
everything that's trying to, that's true.
Anyway, this is something that I'm just like, if you really want to go there, it would,

(02:19:24):
it's so easy to make a case for that.
It and it's, I'm playing.
I don't actually believe that.
I don't actually believe that.
No, I see what you're saying though.
It's not a very good argument because, because you could argue it both ways.
So anyone can be tricking anyone.
And of course they're going to be.
And so to me, I'm just like, okay, you guys play your dumb games.
And if I burn in hell, then you need to figure out a better system for this because I'm going

(02:19:46):
to stop guessing.
And I'm going to start doing, I'm going to start bringing my awareness to this present
moment and I'm going to have a conversation with Laurel.
I'm not going to worry about what's going to happen to my eternal soul because I can't,
it's too confusing.
Yeah.
And so I'm going to leave that to the people who feel drawn to worry about that.
I do find it very challenging to come up with like arguments for what you believe because

(02:20:17):
your beliefs are very abstract.
And they kind of just, they change.
So I have a question for you.
Kind of going back to what you said in the beginning about love.
What if you can never make me see what you think I should see, whether it's true or not,
let's say you're right and you can never make me see it.

(02:20:39):
Are you going to be okay with that?
What are you going to do with that?
I would still love you.
Sweet.
I wouldn't be like, well, this is a lost cause.
So I guess I'm just never going to talk to Michael again.
No, I wouldn't do that.
But I, I'm not going to lose hope.

(02:21:00):
And can I ask you another question?
What if what I'm saying is true about how I feel that I feel all of the things I say
about just the clarity and the peace and the purpose and the relationship that I always
looked for and just the depth of communion, just all of the things that I feel personally.
What if I actually feel, what if that's how I'm really experiencing it?

(02:21:23):
I think that you probably are experiencing that, but you are basing everything that you
believe and experience on feelings and emotions.
What I'm asking is, would you knowing that, knowing that I lived agony and I found peace
and look at that, look at my life around.
I'm really, I'm really just asking, look at my life around me.

(02:21:46):
Look, my, my relationship with my kids is changing.
My relationships with everything and everyone in my life is changing.
Like this, it feels like the sun is starting to shine not only in my life, but out of me.
And it never happened when I was trying to make it happen.
It happened when I gave up and said, well, I can't figure it out.
So I'm going to stop trying.
And then all of a sudden everything I was trying to figure out just starts to fall into

(02:22:08):
place piece by piece.
What if that's true?
Would you really feel like you could tell me you're wrong?
You need to go back to Jesus.
You need to go back to whatever it is because we're using these words, but I feel inside
me that I have the relationship with Jesus that I always wanted to have.

(02:22:31):
I feel like it's the same relationship that I have with the person that I meet on the
street.
It's just a deep appreciation that that person existed, that that being, whatever they are,
whatever it looks like, whatever the world looks like to them, they existed, they did
the best they could, and they're no different than me because we both have the same awareness

(02:22:54):
that's staring out of our eyes and we both have the same essence that's making up the
physical, the spiritual, every part of who we are is literally exists in and subsists
of God.
That's it.
That is.
Would you really tell me to that?
How can you tell me I'm doing it wrong?

(02:23:14):
I have an answer.
I have an answer to your question.
I actually do believe you that you are at a point now where you're like, I've never
been like this before.
I've never experienced this before.
I believe that.
And I believe that time will tell.
You don't have to believe that.

(02:23:35):
Everyone knows that time will tell.
I know, I know.
Time will tell.
And the scripture says, you'll know them by their fruit.
And so we will see.
We'll see the fruit that comes of it, whether...
And you may believe that you see fruit that proves that I'm going off the cliff.
That's where your argument is so abstract.
But the thing is, that's the reality of the world.

(02:23:57):
You can believe that you see something and I can believe that I see something different.
But if your whole world falls apart, you lose everything.
That happens to Christians every day.
I know, but...
It happens to...
The rain falls on the just and the unjust.
If my world falls apart, I will look around me and I will see what I see and I will do
the best that I can with what I have.

(02:24:17):
And I will keep on going and keep on searching to be present in this moment and find joy
and bring that joy to the eyes of the people around me.
That's it.
What I mean by your world falls apart, I don't mean like you lose everything...
Then what?
...physical in this life.
I mean like your...
My belief structure is proven to be flawed?

(02:24:39):
No, I mean...
How else does the world fall apart?
I said it in a way more complicated way than I needed to say.
Welcome to the human family.
Simply, you lose the joy and the peace and the satisfaction that you find in your life
right now and what you believe.

(02:24:59):
You lose that.
When you find yourself in the dying times again, I would say that would be a pretty
good evidence that maybe this actually wasn't.
That there's something I need to see that I don't see.
That's what pain is, is it's something that's saying, look, there's something you need to
see.
And that's how it comes to us.

(02:25:20):
But what if you lose the joy and peace that you have?
What will that mean?
I need to come back.
If I lose the joy and peace I have, that's what it'll mean for me too.
I need to come back.
Whatever that means.
And I will.
That is the simplest way I could say that, that you'll know them by their fruits.
And you could just say, well, it depends on what you see as fruit.

(02:25:43):
Depends on your perspective.
So that's what I mean by your belief system is like, or system, your beliefs are so abstract
that they're really...
Everything I could say to refute what you believe and to try to poke holes in it, it's
like, well, that's your perspective.
Well, how do you...
Is that been my response though?
No, but it's...

(02:26:04):
No, it hasn't.
Eventually, it comes to that because when perspectives are different, you actually see
what seems like different things.
But if I lose the joy and the peace that I've found, that means that I'm doing something
different because you don't find it by accident.
Actually, I don't think that that's what's gonna happen.
Are you a prophet?

(02:26:25):
No.
I just wanna hear your guess about my future.
I mean, you're getting involved in some...
Are.
Like...
It's like...
It's okay.
It is fun to talk to somebody that...
Doesn't take it too seriously, hopefully.
No, it's fun to talk to somebody that knows, understands where I'm coming from.

(02:26:51):
But...
Laurel, I have my mother who is constantly sending me videos and trying to get me to
see how bad the darkness that I'm opening myself up to is.
And I have these conversations with her all the time and they're not unfriendly.
No.
Yeah.
It's...
It's okay to me that...
I'm used to being seen as somebody who's dark, as somebody who is a narcissist, as somebody

(02:27:12):
who is socially broken.
That's how most...
That's how a lot of people...
How I perceive a lot of people seeing me for the past long time.
Yeah.
I've been a mess.
But I'm okay with that because I have joy.
I didn't before.
I do now.
Did you go to the cave yet?
The darkness retreat?
Yeah.

(02:27:32):
I'm going to.
I'm on the waiting list.
Dude, they're booked out till 2027.
Wow.
Yeah.
I think that...
Sky cave retreats.
Oh, you know, I'm not a prophet, so I shouldn't speculate on what I think is going to happen,
but I don't think that it's gonna...
According to Ezekia Francis, I am a prophet.
In India, Ezekia Francis told me in front of a crowd of probably tens of thousands of

(02:27:55):
people...
Is that what he said?
He said...
I don't remember exactly what he said, but basically he said, you have a calling.
You are going to be a prophet.
Wow, your life's not over yet.
That's what's gonna happen.
Well, and it's something I actually think about because as these conversations start
to develop, it's definitely way different than any kind of stretch of the imagination

(02:28:16):
or prophecy I ever imagined because I couldn't be more wrong about predicting the future
every single time I ever try.
The one thing I know about the future is it's never gonna turn out the way I think it will
because it never has and it never does.
I don't think it ever will.
It's always gonna be a surprise and that is part of what brings me joy because I'm always
going to be anticipating what comes next because I never know.

(02:28:39):
I don't actually know much about Ezekiel Francis.
I've heard the name, but I'm not...
I just don't take anything like that too seriously.
I've heard Christians say regarding psychedelics that as a non-believer, they had these beautiful,
enlightening...

(02:28:59):
You know what?
I know what you're gonna say about this.
I'm not even gonna say it.
Oh, do you?
I already know what you're gonna say.
And then they become a Christian and then all of a sudden their experiences are just
tormenting.
Okay, what am I gonna say?
You're gonna say it's just their perspective.
It's just how they see it.
They see they're just what they believe, but you say what you're gonna say to that.

(02:29:24):
Well, it kind of goes back to...
You're not wrong.
You're tormenting it a little bit like over some...
Like it sounds a little dumber than...
But whatever.
But to me, it goes back to that same thing we were talking about, hypnosis, where I know
how powerful, how tricky the human mind is.
Like the Bible says, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

(02:29:46):
Who can know it?
That always confused me.
I didn't really think about it.
I think I wrote that verse down.
You wrote it?
I think that might be one of the...
Wait, I didn't know...
How old are you?
No, not like that.
But I do not give emotions the same value that you do.
Really?
Yeah.
You didn't start a podcast called Emotion Art?
No.

(02:30:07):
Oh, interesting.
It talks about that, that's kind of talking about emotions.
And emotions change and they're...
Here's the thing though.
What decides what emotions are?
Oh my goodness.
What?
What did I say?
You just...
You're like...
Okay, okay, okay, okay.
Okay.
Do you want me to just say what I'm thinking instead of trying to...

(02:30:27):
Yeah, just say it.
I mean, how do you even answer that?
No, I appreciate that because I do that way too often and I want to start being aware
of that.
I don't like that in myself, that leading stuff.
Okay, because I always have something to say.
If I'm actually curious, ask the question.
If you actually have something to say, just say it.
I think that emotions are caused by thoughts, are caused by emotions, are caused by biological

(02:30:49):
chemicals, are caused by emotions, are caused by thoughts, are caused by chemicals, are
caused by emotions, are caused by thoughts.
It's a circular system that it's like...
I think of the brain as hardware, the emotions as software, and the thoughts as firmware.
Okay, now I think I get what you're saying.
So the emotions...

(02:31:09):
It's like a...
So when you smell something and it's a smell that rings a bell, that's emotions.
It rings a bell, emotions.
Immediately thoughts are there, grabbing it, analyzing it, cataloging it, creating a new
chink in the puzzle.
Did you have a new experience?
You're having a new experience.
You're learning new things.
But it all start...
Like the emotions are the things that grab the data.

(02:31:33):
The brain takes the raw data and categorizes it, catalogs it, and puts it in the retrieval
system for quick recall in a snap when you need it.
And the brain is what decides that.
But it uses...
But it all happens with the emotions.
The emotions are the recall.
The emotions are the software.
The emotions are where the recall comes from, or where the learning happens, or where the...
But the thoughts are the things that make it and compile it and organize it and process

(02:31:58):
it and decide what the emotions are actually about based on everything that the brain has
learned, the structure it was taught through with culture and through whatever.
But where does one start and the other stop?
And the third and the fourth and whatever?
I don't know.
And there are probably other elements.
But when I read that verse now, I understand that it's talking about the mind.

(02:32:21):
The emotions, the mind is an infinite head game.
It never stops.
In waking moments, it never stops unless you learn how to meditate or pray or still the
mind.
And you can't actually still it, but you can rise above it in a sort of way where it still
happens but you realize that it's just thought.
It's just software.

(02:32:42):
It's just a system that's designed to watch for the movement in your periphery, keep you
safe from bears, remember where food is, know how to have a social whatever.
It's something that does a job.
And so my mind is really good at figuring some things out and is really bad at figuring
other things out.
So I just don't take it too seriously.

(02:33:03):
I listen for the still small voice.
To me, that's the emotions.
To me, that's where creation comes from.
But it's all affected by everything else.
So where does the one start and the other stop?
Okay.
Emotions aren't deceitful or not deceitful.
They just they're like little kids.
They just are whatever.
I don't know about that.
But as soon as your thought turns to something, your emotions immediately change.

(02:33:24):
They follow the direction of it.
As soon as you have a chemical, if something chemically happens in your body, like you
get pregnant, your emotions change, your thoughts change.
They all are independent and rely on themselves.
But to me, in my experience, the emotions are the raw, the abstract.
They're in your subconscious.

(02:33:45):
Your conscious mind feels them and interprets them.
So I mean, even if that is true, let's just say, for example, that that's true, that your
emotions are just they kind of follow your thoughts.
Your emotions are how the information from your senses arrives in your consciousness.

(02:34:05):
That doesn't really like, even if that is true, that doesn't really change the the the
legitimate or not legitimate sense, the wrong word, the that doesn't really change the value
that emotions have.
Well, I don't value is not the right word.
I don't know what the right word is.
Yeah.
This is kind of getting into a whole field, though.

(02:34:25):
No, you're totally right.
But what I'm saying is probably my fault.
What I'm saying is you view things through the eyes of emotion.
Correct.
How does that make how does that make you feel?
How does that make me feel?
And correct.
How do you view things?
And I just don't view things like that.
And yet here you are speaking into a microphone on a podcast called Emotion.

(02:34:48):
Oh, my goodness.
But I don't I I don't see things like that.
And I have a lot of emotions that I say, wow, that is some feeling that I have that is not
a good feeling.
And I am going to not act on that feeling.
And if that feels like what you should be doing, then perfect.

(02:35:10):
But I think that to base my whole belief on just how I feel, that's crazy.
Emotions.
They're how I experience the world.
They're not what I base my belief on.
If you're not basing what you believe on how you feel, then what are you basing it on?
I'm not basing it on anything.

(02:35:30):
I'm being in this moment and seeing what I see when I open my eyes.
But do you look at things and you say, what's true?
Is this true?
Is that true?
Or do you look at things and say, how do I feel about this?
That's what I mean by you.
You come to these conclusions based on how you feel.
I look at something and I say, is this true?
But how I ask that question is, how do I feel about this?

(02:35:52):
And then I start looking and it always just leads me to another question, because the
world I see around me is constantly changing.
So why would I not change with it?
Why would I seek to be something different than everything else I see around me?
It all depends on what zoom you're looking at.
If you're looking at a black hole, it's unchanging.
But if you zoom out, it's changing extremely fast and extremely volatile.

(02:36:18):
If you look at a mountain, a rock, whatever you look at, depending on your perspective,
it's either changing or unchanging in extreme ways.
Zoom in, zoom out, you get to see everything.
I do want to ask one more question, but I'm not going to want this on the podcast.
This is a good place to stop.
You just drove like what, four and a half hours?

(02:36:39):
Three, it's about three.
Three hours and then you're going to drive home tonight.
I really appreciate you coming number one, because I get to see you.
But most of all, I appreciate your willingness to face fear and your willingness to just
try to be honest, regardless of how confusing things are, has created a space of openness.

(02:37:01):
And we'll see where it goes.
I don't have any expectation, but I really appreciate you and I really like talking to
you.
I really like that you're not afraid to just call me out, challenge me.
And I want to encourage you to continue to practice because I would really like to continue
getting holes poked in my ideas.
Well, thank you for letting me challenge what you believe against what I believe.

(02:37:25):
It means a lot to me.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
I hope you find really good questions and the language to ask them.

(02:37:45):
I appreciate you.

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