Logan: finding faith in the chaos (w/Marebear)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I can make this thing stop, then I'm having fun.

(00:06):
Make my brain stop, because when the brain stops, there you are right in this moment.
That's why we listen to music.
Loads the brain into shh.
This is emotion art.
Yep, emotion because we're all made of emotions.

(00:32):
A personality is the sum of all the emotions it has experienced over a lifetime.
And a personality is therefore always changing.
But at its core, it is emotion.
And art, because everything we do, wants to be art.
Art happens when emotion is expressed through some medium, like paint, or music, or talking.

(01:01):
The more you express your emotional personality through whatever you're doing, the more joy
you're going to have.
The more it's going to feel like life fits you.
To me means that everything we do wants to be art.
Emotion art.
This is a conversation I had with Logan.
Finally, like four years ago, when I first really got excited about starting to interview

(01:28):
people, maybe starting a podcast, Logan was one of the, possibly the first person who
said, I'll record with you.
Luke did the same thing later on when I was ready to record.
Logan did it before I was ready.
I was just like, oh, I need to get microphones and I need to, like, this is so exciting.
I'm going to do all this stuff and I got to start like having conversations.

(01:50):
But what conversations?
Who do I have conversations with?
And I'm like, Logan, would you record with me?
And she was like, yes, I'll record with you.
I was like, okay, once I get mics, you're going to be my first interview.
It didn't happen that way.
But it finally happened and it was fantastic.
Logan, thanks for letting me record some of your stories so that people who are curious

(02:15):
can experience a little bit of life outside of their own worldview.
It's the coolest kind of gift.
Okay, Mary, thank you for co-hosting this one with me.
You're a fantastic co-host and I can't wait to do it again.
Mary has one or two other podcast projects she's working on that I'm beyond excited to

(02:36):
experience when it's time.
Buddy Anderson, as always, thank you for your music.
We appreciate you.
You make this podcast better.
Check out Buddy's music on Spotify from another mista.
His links in the show notes, actually, thanks to Angela and all of her editing magic, there's

(02:58):
links to just about everything we talk about in the show notes.
As she goes, she just looks things up that we talk about and she'll even put a Wikipedia
page link in there.
So, for those of you who like to check things out, if something catches your interest, thank
Angela.
And now, we explore Logan's worldview.
Welcome to EmotionArt.ic

(03:48):
A space for emotional art. Creative energy moving outward in conscious expressions.
Emotion art. An emotion art gallery.
This, this, this, this, this, this, this is emotion art.
You're welcome.

(04:11):
Loud and clear.
Hello.
Hello.
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
Did my head shrink because these things bigger than this ever felt?
You barfed your brains out.
Mary, you need to put your mic way closer to your face.
You know, I did.
Lift it, Mary.
I did it to fall.
I can't go. I can't go.

(04:33):
That's why I didn't tighten it enough.
Then you can go up and down and stuff.
That is correct.
It's very close to my face.
I can hear myself breathing.
My pug.
How's everyone's ear volume?

(04:54):
Pretty good.
Not the same as my foot volume.
Well, you know what they say about a foot.
What?
An inch is as good as a mile.
I don't know what that is.
Don't think anyone says that besides you.
Well, off with.
Off with you.
That's normal.
Off with?
Off with.
Off with.
Off with.

(05:15):
Off with.
OK, we recording.
Oh sweet.
Ever since the first episode with you,
I'm always going to hit recording before I tell you.
I know you get some gyms in there, man.
It's the best.
Jim.
Jim.
Jim.

(05:36):
Jim.
Johnson.
Jim.
There's a lot of gyms.
I can't think of any of them, but Jim Gaffion.
There's only one Jim.
Jim.
Jim Carrey.
Oh, you're right.
That's true.
You know Jim Carrey.
Whoa.
The pet detective?
Yep.

(05:57):
All right.
I actually think we were talking about the same thing.
We like Jim Carrey here.
Hi, Logie.
Hello.
Hey, Logs.
Hello.
And Mary.
Hi.
Hi, Michael.
We all made it here.
We did.
Yeah.
Me and Mary got here at the same time.
We did.
I'm so really stoked about that.

(06:18):
Yeah.
Did you get here at the same time because you came in the same way?
No.
I just happened to look at the clock and I was like,
I should go up to the forge.
And then I walked in and then Logie came in the other way.
She came in through the front door.
I always come in, if the garage is open, I always go through the garage.
So then I was like, did you get here?
Me too.

(06:40):
We met in the kitchen.
While all of this was happening, I was telling Angela that Angela was like,
oh, Mary's always late.
She's just going to be late.
So you can like take a rest.
And I was like, oh, that sounds so good.
I was like, I'm just going to go set my timer for 30 minutes.
Mary's going to be late anyway.
And then I was like, okay, I'm going to go do that now.

(07:01):
She was like, okay.
And then I walked out there and there you guys were.
And I was like, oh, my plan has just changed.
That was awesome.
I do like to think that I give people time to rest with my lateness though.
People should be appreciative of that.
Like my boss.
The thing I like about lateness is it's real.
Yeah.
I'm never late.

(07:22):
Am I not real?
You're not real.
I'm real.
You always like to be on time.
I'm always on time.
You're always on time.
That for you is real.
But there's a lot of people who are on time and it's a huge hassle for them.
They hate it.
And so I'd rather just be late.
It's okay.
Yeah.
And if you like being on time, be on time.

(07:45):
Yeah.
I like being on time.
Being late stresses me out.
Yeah.
I'm being on time.
Stresses me out.
The act of, oh no, I've procrastinated.
Now I have to get ready.
That stresses me out.
But I have like my whole life because I've been late so much.
I'm just like, oh well, people know.
Not even that is just like, I'm comfortable with that.

(08:08):
I don't even look at it as being late really.
If I'm 20 minutes late, I'm on time.
Like that's, I'm not even joking.
That's how my brain works.
It's weird.
Has it always worked that way?
Yeah.
My mom, my mom used to have to tell my dad that we had to be somewhere like an hour to
a half hour prior to the actual time so that we could get there on time.

(08:30):
So I think I get it from him.
It's crazy how different your experiences from your experiences, from my experience,
and what stresses you out may be like chill level one for Logie.
Chill level one.
Chill level one?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yet we all coexist and are most more or less friendly.

(08:56):
More or less.
Oh, that's so, that's good.
I love ASMR so much.
No, that was a good one.
I don't like most ASMR, but that's good.
Hold on.
Oh my gosh, here we go.
That just reminds me of the gym.

(09:17):
People get the metal mesh ones so they can drag it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So people put like Saran wrap over it and put glue.
That's a good one.
On the microphone?
That's pretty cool.
As more and more people get used to having an ability to video or record something and
post it, more and more weird stuff is starting to just come out.

(09:41):
Yeah.
Pretty great.
And TikTok's back.
Did it go somewhere?
It was banned for 10 hours.
Did it go?
It was back up.
Did it go somewhere?
It did go somewhere.
It actually got banned?
For like 10 hours.
For 10 hours you were not able to post on TikTok?
I don't post.
Or watch.
I think I posted like two videos.
But I like opened it at like, it was like 9.30.

(10:04):
And it said I was, it was like, sorry, this is banned.
We're like fixing the problem.
And then I didn't go on it.
And then this morning I liked and even checked because I was like, no, well it's gone forever.
Yeah, you're like this is indefinite.
10.30, I opened it and I was like, what?
And it worked.
How do you feel about that?
I'm excited.
I like TikTok.

(10:25):
Me too.
There's some stuff on there that you can't find anywhere else.
Like what?
Which is cool.
The things people make on TikTok.
It just like, or like the message, messages people send and just like the community that
it has is like, I feel like it's unique to a specific platform.
And I like it.
Yeah.

(10:46):
It's, it's, there's some really incredible things out there, like raising awareness for,
yeah.
And then there's certain like issues and stuff like that and just like the different things
that people can learn because they're, they're using this specific app that those people
wouldn't learn anywhere else.
Yeah.
You find community in TikTok.
I think a lot of people do.

(11:07):
I think that's why people were so upset that it was going to go not because it like was
social media kind of thing, but it was like because there's such a community building
aspect to it.
That people were upset that was going to go.
How important is it to you in your life that you have community?
Very.
And what part of the sense of community that you feel does TikTok make up?

(11:31):
Obviously, it would be impossible to answer that exactly, but I'm just wondering what
it feels like.
I just feel like no matter what you enjoy, there's thousands of other people that enjoy
it on there.
No matter what mood you're in or what you're enjoying at that time, you're kind of able
to find content about it, which I like.

(11:52):
It's like validating to your human.
Yeah.
It's like, I'm not the only one that, that likes this.
I also feel like it's just like a conversation starter.
Dude.
Between a lot of my friends, it definitely just like sparks conversation because like
things start trending and then you just like everyone knows about it, which is the source

(12:12):
of a lot of inside jokes.
It is certain phrases that you hear the boys say probably came from TikTok.
You feel a sense of community with your friends.
I take it.
Yeah.
Do you feel like you're able to be completely yourself with your close friend group?
Yeah, I'd say so.

(12:33):
What do you mean?
I'd say so.
I feel like I can be completely myself with whoever I'm with.
That's just like always been kind of a thing.
So as much as I let myself definitely, and the people I surround myself with are going
to be people that I like trust.
Okay.
I hear you saying that you are going to surround yourself with people that you can be fully
yourself with, but you are not ever fully yourself or?

(12:58):
I don't know what I'm trying to say because I don't think I ever let myself fully be myself
even when I'm like alone.
There are parts of me that I'm just like, I try to like shun away, which is definitely
something that I need to work on.
But the people I surround myself with are the ones that I feel like can be myself the
most with.
And then I can kind of talk about that.

(13:18):
So what I'm getting at with that is I'm wondering if the sense of community you feel from TikTok,
like you guys, it sounds like TikTok is a big deal in all of your lives.
And so it's a conversation starter.
So I'm wondering if there is- It's not necessarily a big deal in like all of our lives.
There are a lot of my friends that don't have it.
But like the ones that I do where it's like, it's just like a fun thing to talk about.

(13:39):
Okay.
I'm digging for something where there's nothing there.
Perfect.
I love doing that.
I wonder.
So, look at your mommy held your 16.
Okay.
You didn't remember that?
No, I just wanted to say.
Neither did I.
Okay.
So you're 16.
So you're, I feel like that age, like you're constantly evolving and learning what you
like and that changes from time to time.

(14:02):
And so I think it's hard to feel steadfast and then answer, like answering who, being
yourself because who is that, right?
Cause it's, it's still evolving.
I don't know.
For sure.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
I don't know how I would explain myself.
It's so true.
I don't know what like, I remember there was like a specific time.

(14:24):
It was like over the summer.
I think it was like at a party.
Maybe it was like Diana's wedding thing.
And someone asked like, they said that I feel like I know myself really well.
And they asked like, so who are you?
And I was like, I didn't know how to answer it.
I was like, I don't actually know, which I think opened a lot of doors for me and like

(14:45):
realizing that I feel like I was able to accept the change more.
I think it's cool that you didn't jump to, well, I swim and I play soccer.
You know, people tend to identify with the things they do.
Like they're big parts of me, but they're just like, it's like an outlet for part to
me.
It's not who I am.

(15:05):
Do you feel like you're mature?
I would say so.
Am I?
I think you are.
I think that you have the space to figure out who you are and to continue to figure out
who you are.
I don't know that could, that might not feel true.
I think it, yeah.

(15:26):
Yeah.
I think that anybody who answers the question, who are you with?
I don't know.
Any variation of that is somebody who sees themself pretty clearly.
Yeah.
That's what I was thinking too.
I remember the first time I met Gwen, like a lot of you guys answer that question that
way.
It just blows my mind.
No.
Okay.
I need to stop saying that because now I just have a picture of brains all over the

(15:51):
wall.
Shoot.
Half way.
Half way.
Shoot.
It just feels really good to hear a 16-year-old because that's the same thing Gwen said because
of course that's what I'm going to ask when, you know, I brings his girlfriend over.
I'm going to be like, so put yourself in a box for me.

(16:13):
Yeah.
How would you sum yourself up?
Yeah.
And she's like, confused.
I don't know.
Confused.
That's what she said.
And I'm like, I don't know why you're asking me that.
That was a shocking answer because I haven't been asking these questions for very long.
I've been too afraid to.
And so I was like, how do you feel about that?
She's like, I'm okay with it.
Nice.
It felt like the most satisfying, who are you interaction I'd ever had?

(16:35):
Satisfying that you didn't get an answer.
Yes.
Because the truth is, even though I am looking for something, the truth is that underneath
it all, no one actually knows who they are.
In this one moment, I'm a person wearing a whole bunch of colorful patchwork sitting
in a chair in front of a microphone talking to you guys.
That's who I am.
Yeah.
Totally.

(16:56):
So I love those answers.
And I have another TikTok question.
Oh, shoot.
Okay.
Let's say that it still was banned and now it's a week later.
Yeah.
And it's banned.
And you have tried to open it so many times and it still says banned.
Now what do you do?
Well, the other day in forensics, I was talking to my friend Katie.

(17:19):
We had a sub and we didn't do anything.
But there's this Chinese app called Red Note.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've heard of it.
I've heard of it.
Because TikTok is banned in China.
So we downloaded it.
What?
It is?
Yeah.
That's why it's so weird.
Oh, they banned it everywhere.
The plot thickens.
It's been banned in China for years.
It's like this app has been around and we downloaded it and it's basically just like
a Chinese version of TikTok.

(17:39):
So I was on that.
It like got banned.
So last night when I was doing my little nightly scroll before bed, I was on that.
So I had another thing, but it's like TikTok is TikTok.
Like where am I going to get my dopamine hit from?
Bro.
Leave it at Red Note.
It's part of my routine.
Like if TikTok goes away, all of you, your generation is going to just make another TikTok.

(18:01):
People are going to go back to Instagram for a bit, I think.
Definitely.
I don't know.
I'm not a big...
My Instagram reels and my TikTok are completely different.
Yeah, for sure.
And on Instagram reels, people can see what you liked and see who you follow.
I don't like that.
I don't like that.
I don't like that.
Why?
Invasive.
I have...
It feels like I'm airing out my business and I have...

(18:22):
I like some really weird stuff.
Of course you do.
You're weird.
Everybody.
And the things that you like...
I don't like the people who are...
Are there thousands and hundreds of thousands of likes on them already?
Yeah.
Oh, so you're not the only one that...
I'm the only one of the people that I follow in my school of 300 people that like that.
Okay.
So...
What if there are other people in your school that like it and just don't know because they

(18:47):
have never met somebody who's willing to...
Or they just...
They didn't hit the heart.
Definitely true.
They didn't hit the heart because they like it.
I just like when I can keep my business private.
Hmm, I see.
Would you say that you're a private person?
To an extent, yes.
There's definitely stuff I don't talk about that I like to keep to myself.
Such as?
Wow.

(19:07):
What?
What?
Just like...
I had the same question in my head.
I was like, talk about it now.
Yeah.
You said, just like...
No, just stuff that...
Either important things that I don't know how to describe yet or how they make me feel.

(19:29):
That's what I definitely keep private because I don't know how I would describe it.
Like I know it impacts me in such an important way and it like makes me who I am, but I don't
know how I would put it into words or even like a feeling of what it is.
So you're saying you keep the things private that you don't understand?
Yeah.
Interesting.

(19:49):
Because...
Until I understand them.
Like if I'm talking about something that's important to me, I want to be able to see the
whole picture.
My friend Anna said this really cool thing the other day.
She was giving her testimony in our Bible study and she said, hold on, let me find it.
Cool.
It's hard to see the bigger picture in the middle of the story.

(20:09):
So like I feel when I'm still processing things or still almost like angry about them or like
have such a strong emotion about it, I feel like I talk about it in an angry way.
I think that's a way of processing though.
Yeah.
Like it's a way of processing but then stepping back, I feel like I'm able to understand it
more and like find a reason why I made the decisions that I did if it's that kind of

(20:37):
situation or just like how I'm feeling about it and like how it impacted me.
You think a lot.
I do.
Too much, I would say sometimes.
What's something in your life right now that feels very important to you?
Something in my life that feels really important right now is definitely growing my faith.

(21:00):
I am new to Christianity and it's like the majority of the rest of the family doesn't
believe in it.
So I feel like finding ways to grow it even surrounded by people that don't follow.
Like I have a really big community that does follow.
So just growing my faith and kind of understanding it more is big for me.

(21:24):
Yeah.
I would say that's pretty recent.
I kind of started going to youth group stuff every once in a while like freshman year because
that's when I met like my group of friends now and then definitely last year and this
summer is when it started to, I started to like understand it more and want to.

(21:48):
Like it definitely became more of a thing.
Resonating with you.
Yeah.
You're like, hey, this makes sense to me.
Yeah.
It's the longest time I was like, because I am gay.
That's also a big part of me.
And I feel like a lot of the time religion is taught in kind of like a disclusive way

(22:10):
or like it excludes people, which it shouldn't.
So I feel like I was really insecure about that.
But the people I met in the youth groups I go to and like my youth pastor Gemma is one
of like, I consider her like a big sister now because she was like just so kind and
how she taught it to me.
And like the people I surround myself fully like accept me.

(22:31):
So for the longest time I was like, I can't actually believe in this.
Like people won't take me seriously.
I was like really insecure about it.
So then when I realized like, oh, it doesn't have to be a shameful thing to be gay and
believe in God, then I feel like I fully started to let myself get into it because I wanted
to for so long.
But then you felt drawn to it.

(22:53):
What draws you to Christianity?
It's like really unconditionally loving, which I like.
It gives me a sense of security, which I like because I feel like for most of my life I
didn't feel that like I had people that cared for me, obviously.
And I had people that I was able to talk to, but I didn't really have something that made

(23:14):
me feel secure.
So I feel like that's really helpful.
I'm able to understand things more and know that like almost like there's someone in my
corner all the time, which I like.
Does it like, do you feel like it's like grounding?
Do you feel like it adds peace to your life or do I don't know?

(23:34):
Definitely both.
So I feel like that's kind of why I got into it.
Yeah.
So how did you get into it?
Did you, how did you, what's the first, the first time you went?
How did that happen?
Um, it was like a baking thing or like, I don't know, you get in a team and you bake something,
you have like a certain amount of time, like you go to the store and you make it.

(23:55):
Was that the Christmas, Christmas time thing?
Or is that something different?
I remember a baking thing not that long ago.
Yeah.
I think it was like that same thing, but it was like years ago.
It was like freshman or sophomore year.
And like I knew my really good group of friends with Christian, but I wasn't.
And they were like kind of planning like we need to introduce Logan to this because like

(24:17):
a big part of Christianity is spreading the gospel.
Like that's, that's part of it.
So they like plotted on it.
So like started bringing me to things.
And then I went on a retreat and the things they were preaching wasn't what I was expecting.
It wasn't, it wasn't nice.

(24:38):
It like wasn't good.
And like everyone who was there thought that too.
So at first when I heard the thing, I was like, what?
Like this is what it actually is.
And then we got back to our like little cabin thing.
I was in a group with like all my friends and the leader was like, that wasn't good.
Really?
Like you shouldn't take anything from that.

(24:59):
Whoa, that's so we kind of debunked it in a different way.
And then I was like, oh, this is nice.
There are people who believe in a nice way.
So then I started going to more youth group stuff and we started a little Bible study
with my good friends.
And then I went on another retreat.
So then I started like believing more.
And then the most recent retreat I went on was like groundbreaking.

(25:22):
It was like, I think it was November and in November.
There was this one night, it was the last night we were there and we were doing, we
had like Gemma spoke and she read some stuff.
And then we had like a worship thing.
I love worship.
So we were all singing.
And then I started crying because I was like, I just felt everything so much.

(25:45):
And then she like opened it up to like prayer and everyone was in there for like an hour
after that, just like praying.
And then all my friends came over and mean like surrounded me and we're all like crying
and they were like praying over me.
And it was like, it was such an important thing.
So so deeply connective.
Yeah, that's incredible.
And after that, I was like, Oh my gosh, I never want to not have this community with

(26:10):
me.
I've cold chills.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
It's awesome.
I mean, that's kind of what humans are after in the human condition is connection.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Gemma had set up this thing.
We had all, we all had notebooks that she made for that retreat.
And the thing was like, that's where you take your notes during devotionals and stuff.

(26:34):
And then in the back, people wrote notes, like little letters to each other.
Yeah.
So we could all have that connection kind of thing.
And we all kind of read them on the last day and a lot of people got like teary eyed
and like, it was really nice.
So having the connection was really cool.
You have a youth group after this, don't you?
I do.
I don't know if I'm able to go because I need to go walk chewy, but maybe we'll go for

(26:55):
half of it.
It's just game night.
Connection night.
Connection night.
Yeah.
You mentioned that there's not a lot of people in your family who are Christian.
Yeah.
I feel like it's not something we talk about a lot.
Practicing maybe.
Yeah.
And it's like not a topic that comes up a lot.
So I'm wondering.

(27:16):
I know that you used to be.
There's a foundation there for a lot of you.
Yeah.
Because I remember going to church a couple of times, but I just, it doesn't feel like
something that is continuing to be practiced in the house.
No, I don't disagree with you.
Yeah.
What my question is, is does it feel like you have the space to talk about what you want

(27:37):
to?
Is there, does that create any difficulty with trying to figure this whole, I don't know,
it's a new way of looking at the world.
It's a new way of experiencing yourself, I imagine.
And what's that like in your situation?
Do you feel like you have the space to talk about it?
I think so.
I'm still kind of getting used to it.
I feel like in the beginning there for a moment, it was almost like, I wasn't made fun

(28:01):
of for it, but people weren't expecting it.
And it was kind of like, what do you mean?
I didn't know if it was my place to talk about it, because I don't know very much.
And I'm still learning and figuring it out.
So I didn't feel like I had the right to talk about it, but I feel like I definitely do.
Like I'm talking about it now.
And I talked with mom, like when I got back from the retreat and it was like, I definitely

(28:25):
do.
I just don't know if I choose to a lot.
Sure.
And I can understand it would be scary, especially since you keep the things private that you
don't understand.
Exactly.
Like you're saying.
Like I don't want to talk a ton about it when I don't know a ton about it.
I mean, the problem is that that's how you learn, but where do you find the balance?
But it's almost like a subconscious thing that it's like, I can't bring it up.

(28:46):
Yes.
Well, I will say that I think I had some type of reaction towards you one time when you
mentioned youth group.
And I did in the kitchen.
And I can picture it in my head and now I feel really terrible about that.
And I'm really sorry.
No, I'm being serious though, because like what I think you were just mentioning that

(29:08):
you were going to youth group.
And I think my face, because my experience, right?
Is the exact opposite of yours as a game.
Which makes sense to have a reaction to that.
Totally.
But that judgment isn't fair, right?
Because you need to be able to have the space to figure that out.
And it's cool because you didn't grow up with it being shoved on your throat.
So you have a different experience and I think that's really awesome.

(29:30):
And I think the courage that you have, that you were talking about like being a gay person,
doing this thing whenever in your head you were like, well, I'm not going to be accepted,
but you did it anyway.
That takes so much courage, you know?
And like you did it anyway.

(29:51):
I don't feel like I ever got judgment from you, by the way.
Cool.
I just wanted to acknowledge that though, you know what I mean?
Because I think it's awesome.
You do so much.
You're like the busiest teenager I've ever met.
Well, Ike too.
Ike too.
Well, what about Ike?
Do you guys talk about, because he kind of...
Yeah, we have a little bit.
I know I always say we need to bring fidgets and then I forget to bring the fidgets because

(30:16):
it's like...
I should have run my rings.
Something to do with your hands.
Yeah.
But we have...
You can play with that chord.
We have talked a little bit about it.
I kind of just told him the same thing when I just told you, just kind of how it all worked
out.
He thought it was really awesome.
I feel like Ike is really supportive.
He is.

(30:37):
Yeah.
Me and Ike, some of my favorite moments with Ike is when we're alone on the back porch
and it's like, we don't have school in the morning.
It's like 11.30 and we have like Jesus and we just talk for hours.
And it's like my favorite thing.
Jesus' chat.
Jesus' chat.
Cool.
Because we have the best conversations ever about everything.

(30:58):
Because we grew up in the same way, but also so differently at the same time.
It feels surreal.
Yeah.
You're also going through certain life things together because you're the same age.
And really similar experiences and really similar ways of processing it and kind of
how it affected our life.

(31:19):
But in every other way, so different.
Yeah.
It's insane.
It's crazy to think about.
You guys have the makings of some surreal stories.
One day, one day you're going to have a story to tell that's going to make people go, what?
I told Ophelia and Kat about it at Swim the other day because it was like a heat, the
500.
We had like eight minutes where we weren't doing anything.

(31:40):
And I just...
Just an eight minute glimpse into my life.
So it's like really fun to tell people the, like, not like the full story because that
would take years and all the layers.
So that little elevator pitch you give people, do you know, is that something you can just
pull out easily?
Like I want to hear, what do you tell people when you're just trying to get that?

(32:02):
You've got to have it down by now because I know you've had to do it multiple times.
I don't have it down though.
I feel like it changes every time.
But like for me, it was always like, oh yeah, I was born in Chicago, raised in a cult, joined
the Amish.
Like, you know, like you have a casual guy.
You have like a highlight reel that you give to these people.
That's just the little trunk, that little highlight.

(32:22):
Yeah.
I don't even know.
Cause sometimes I add other things that happen or sometimes I say other things that happen.
But generally it's open relationship, combination.
Parents got divorced.
We all moved in here, but there's more people, but there's like not as many people, but it's

(32:44):
like...
I don't know, cause I don't even know if I fully understand it.
Blended families.
I don't think any of us do.
Yeah.
Yeah, no one knows what's going on.
But I give like snippets of kind of how I happen to like growing up in a party household
kind of things I saw.
Oh, a party household.
From a young age.

(33:04):
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
From like eight.
Michael.
Like talk about that stuff a lot, but it's like definitely influenced me.
No kidding.
Yeah.
Dude.
Definitely going to my first house party from under 10.
I don't know.
I feel like it's part of why I'm so mature is the way our family was growing up.

(33:27):
Exposure too.
I mean...
Like me and I can, I feel like we got very mature from a very young age.
I'm not mad about it.
I think it's cool the way I grew up.
Definitely grateful for it.
Definitely affected me in a lot of ways, but...
I mean, you could have other weird trauma, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, everybody has that.
Yeah, dude.

(33:48):
Like pick you, you know, just like a suitcase.
You just open it up.
Like pick what you want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Something's going to shape you.
So you've gotten, you feel like you've gotten to the point where you look back and see it
in light of who you've become rather than the discomfort that you were feeling at the
time?
Parts of it.
Parts of it.
Parts of it.
I still am kind of angry about maybe or like I don't know how it's affected me yet.

(34:13):
I get into situations and then I'm like, oh, that makes sense of why I'm feeling that way.
Like kind of clicks.
So I kind of get that almost new.
Like every time I'm in like a hard situation, it's like that makes sense why I feel that
way.
I kind of make the connection.
So I feel like I'm slowly working my way through it of how things have affected me and like

(34:37):
the parts I can understand come slowly.
Who's your therapist?
Myself.
I was thinking about therapy too.
That's like usually decades of therapy.
I went to one therapist, but he stressed me out.
So I stopped going.
He was kind of weird.
Maybe I do new therapist.
Sounds like you're asking yourself all the right questions.

(34:58):
Yeah.
That therapist can't do more than that.
I kind of just gather what a ton of people say or like things I see online.
I'm like, oh, like that make me like have kind of a revelation moment or like make me feel
something and then I try to figure out why.
You should.
My legs are going numb.

(35:18):
Bless you.
I try not to shine a light on it when it's happening, but I cannot tell you how good
it makes me feel to watch you and Ike or any of you guys just connecting because there's
been so much intense chaos and it hasn't always been like that.

(35:48):
The connecting?
Yes.
I mean, I have been a mess for a long time.
We all have.
That lack of connection was like the thing that was the hardest for me to see.
I was always trying to push it and make it happen, which of course was just utterly disastrous.

(36:10):
Now I finally figured out that it's not my job.
I wasn't the one holding it together in the first place.
Never have been, still not.
Now I just get to watch it happen and it's just beautiful.
I love it.
I feel like as all of us are getting older, it's definitely coming more naturally because
I feel like for the longest time, as older three, had such a disconnect.

(36:32):
With each other?
No.
With the family?
With the rest of the family, I feel like.
Because I feel like it became opposite ends of the spectrum.
Me and Rit, matured real fast and the other ones didn't.
So I kind of felt like I wasn't able to have a real conversation with them unless I was

(36:53):
like playing a card game or like, I still definitely feel that way about some like Sawyer.
I feel like I haven't actually had like a real conversation with him ever.
Just because he's like 10 years old and I'm 16, there's a six year age difference and
we process things very differently.
Even like me at 10 years old and Sawyer at 10 years old.

(37:13):
That's not a bad thing.
And he's the baby of a chaotic family.
What a rough road he's had to walk.
And I don't want to like upset him.
He's an easily upset person, which makes complete sense.
Getting less and less that way.
He's changing by the day now.
Oh, it's crazy.
Yeah.
I think he's just starting to be, I think he's starting to be honest with himself.

(37:36):
Yeah.
He's tired of being a victim.
I think all of them are.
Oh yeah.
The change is crazy.
And they're watching you guys.
Yeah, they are.
And you guys are pretty good role models, dude.
Yes.
You are.
Seriously.
The best.
And you guys are doing exactly what you want to do.
Yeah.
You're pursuing Christianity.
And I have some questions about, like you said, how did you say it?

(37:58):
You're trying to deepen.
Yeah, deepen my connection.
Yeah, your connection.
I understand it more.
And I'm wondering, how are you doing that?
What are you doing to, I don't know.
Well, I can't really go to like morning services.
That's just a lot of driving on Sundays.
That's when I do everything.

(38:19):
But I read a lot of scripture, writing is the way I process things.
I write every night.
So I read scripture and I write about it.
And I go to Bible study.
I often go back over my testimony a lot, add things, take things out, look at like key
moments.
Like when you say go over your testimony, you mean the story?

(38:41):
The story of how I like, why I am the way I am and how I became, like how I came to Christ.
Oh, gotcha.
Okay.
So definitely scripture, definitely reading, talking a lot in Bible study.
I go on hikes a lot with Gemma.
Cool.
And some of my friends in just talking through things like that.
Because I have that community outside of family that has basically been rooting for me for

(39:04):
years.
And now they're like finally getting to see it become a thing.
And I know that's a big for them.
I can definitely tell.
And Gemma's told me a lot.
So talking and writing, definitely.
And worship.
I like the way you say worship.
Worship.
Worship.
Worship.
Earlier when you said it, I thought you said worship.
Worship.
You did what?

(39:24):
We bomb people.
It's called battleships.
With love.
With love.
With Jesus' love.
Jesus' love.
Jesus' love.
Worship is, definitely still has a very special place in my heart.
I'm a big music person.
Yeah, you are.
I love music.
So it's really cool to like, combine the two.

(39:45):
And there's just something raw and genuine about worship.
Where it's just people.
Worshipping in an entire room of people who are just crying and just like feeling all
of it.
It's like, you can't get that anywhere else.
You can't get that feeling.
I think that's why I love live music so much.
It's so raw.
That was definitely my favorite part about my Christian days.

(40:07):
Worship.
Oh, cool.
Being part of worship.
There's nothing like it.
And I was a worship leader.
Like, I mean, regularly in circles I was in, I would play guitar or drums and sing and
whatever.
That's what Maggie and Lucy do a lot of.
They're like beautiful singers.
They sing a lot of our worship.
Worship.
Worship.
I was in a band.

(40:27):
What?
Yeah, I was in a church band, you guys.
Would you play?
Yes.
Guess what our name was?
Worship.
No, dude.
Are you ready for this?
I don't think I am.
I am very ready.
We had t-shirts and everything.
We would play on Sunday mornings at my church.
Our name was Forgiven.

(40:48):
Like with the number four?
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness.
That's so good.
Dude, yeah.
My aunt was my youth pastor and my cousin who I'm still very close with, who is also
gay.
Sick.
Yeah.
She is a really good singer and we like to sing together.
So it started out, I grew up in a super German Protestant church and so it started out like

(41:16):
my aunt would play songs and Kelsey and I would sing duets.
A few songs from a brother where art thou.
We were pretty good.
And then basically-
Man of constant sorrow.
It was when church band-
Yeah.
Oh man, that's a great song.
It was like when church bands started getting really big or Christian bands started getting

(41:40):
really big and so we were like, why don't we form a band?
Let's do it.
Yeah.
And the pastor's son played the drums so he did that and then we outsourced somebody
that played guitar who was not a Christian and he was a really angry guy.
But yeah, it's so funny to think back about that.
Our staple is the box drum.

(42:01):
Oh, wait, like a cologne?
Like the one that you sit on?
Yeah, cologne.
We are that in all of our things.
This is like box drum, piano and guitar.
Yeah.
And a singer.
Sweet.
Yeah.
I guess you guys all do it together then?
Or like, are there like two people?
Yeah, it's like on all of our retreats we have worship leaders.
You sing, everyone else is singing too, but like that's where the music comes from.

(42:24):
That's a great way to connect though too, like you're saying, like it's just, I don't
know, something about playing music with other people and singing with other people is-
And like seeing all of your best friends sing it is really cool.
Mary, I just found out something extremely interesting about you.
Oh, what's that?
And I'm just wondering, does Forgiven have any thoughts of a reunion tour or anything?

(42:48):
No, dude.
I want to see this.
You and your cousin could do it.
I wonder if we have any videos.
What did you play or sing or what was your part?
Yeah, I sang.
I could play the piano when I was younger, but I would get really nervous to like do
that.
In the band mostly you sang?
Yeah.
Kelsey and I sang.
I don't think I've ever heard you sing.

(43:09):
You haven't?
I think I have.
I've never even-
I've never like singing, like I've heard you sing but not like joking around singing.
Or do ballet.
I've never seen you do ballet.
Nobody's seen me do ballet.
Look at these ankles, they're permanently swollen.
There ain't no way I'm there in ballet.
Mary's just one big sprained ankle.
Here lies Mary.

(43:31):
Good album.
Sprained ankle.
Oh yeah, it's got me down on my memoir.
Oh, I've been super into Phoebe Bridgers lately, dude.
Yeah, I've been thinking about you.
I love Phoebe Bridgers.
Like just playing the Punisher album.
Oh my God.
Non-fucking stop.
It's insane.
It's so good.
Talk about worship.
It's so good.
I would worship Phoebe Bridgers to the day I die because she's awesome.

(43:54):
I know I'm behind that album came out a while ago but I thought about you.
I've heard that name.
Lucy Dacus is coming out with a new album.
Really?
Yeah, I love you.
He has a really good taste in me.
I do.
What's your favorite worship artist?
I don't know if I have one.
What's one you like?
I don't know.

(44:14):
What's one you like?
I don't know.
Artists.
Artists.
I just broke.
I don't know.
A lot of worship music.
You don't listen.
I made me a playlist and I just play it.
Oh, that's cool.
Yeah.
Oh, that's fair.
A lot of my own music I know the artists and songs of but I haven't done a deep dive
into other worship stuff.

(44:36):
What's your art?
Writing, I feel like.
I want to get into acting.
I'm too scared though.
That's been a big thing that I wanted to do for my entire life.
What are you scared of?
That I'm not going to be good at it so I just don't want to try.
Aw man, that's not like you.
I know and that's weird because that's something and if I've wanted to do something for a long

(44:58):
time, I'm going to make it happen.
So it's weird that I haven't tried it but Lacey also really likes acting so we're going
to take a class together.
Yeah, you said that recently.
That's cool.
I'm too scared to be in a school play.
I was going to do.
You would have so much fun.
I know.
I just get nervous because I can't sing.
I get nervous.
I can't.

(45:19):
I'm sure you can sing.
I can.
I have never actually tried so I'm scared to audition and sing alone in front of people.
Does every single person that is in the school play have to, even if they want to be part
of the chorus, they have to do like a.
I don't know if you have to but if you, I want to get a good part.

(45:39):
I don't just want to be a background dancer.
But what if you started there just to take the edge off?
I don't know.
I just want to go big dude.
You want to go big or go home?
I'd want to do screen more than.
So your stomach.
That was my stomach.
So I'm like a cat.
It is a cat.
Leonard?

(46:00):
Yeah.
I ate hymns.
I'm not really hungry.
Is there a virus coming back?
Yeah dude.
But I'd want to do like screen acting more than like Broadway or something.
Yeah.
Logie, I really want to see you act.
I do too.
You're like so bad dude.
So bad I can't even stand it.
I want to act so bad.

(46:23):
It's been a thing for forever.
This is one of the first things you told me about yourself.
But when you think of being in that place where you are acting, what's the feeling you
have inside?
I don't know.
It's just like all a ton of emotion.
I feel like everything all at once.
Everything ever all at once.

(46:44):
Is that how you want to feel?
Yeah.
And I want to make people feel emotion.
So our house.
Such a big part of why I want to act is because when I watch other people who are like having
an amazing performance of movies and shows, that's what I love.
I love movies and shows because it makes me feel such like a deep emotion inside of me.

(47:05):
And seeing the things you're feeling through another person's portrayal of them in a story
is like one of the craziest things ever.
And I want to make people feel that.
I want to make people feel all the emotion that's inside of me into them.
So you want to express the emotion that's inside of you through acting because you can't

(47:27):
make people see or feel anything.
No.
But if I put it into another person, that's me.
If you give people a window to look at it.
Exactly.
Because you can't decide what they see.
Yes.
But if other people see something, even if it's a completely different feeling inside
of me, if it makes something inside of them, that's like the best thing ever.

(47:49):
My question is, is the thing that you really want to create that window with the experience
in it?
Or is the thing that you want for somebody to look through the window and see what you
want them to see?
Which, what do you actually get satisfaction out of in this future world where you are
an actor?
I think just the creation of, just the art of it, I feel like seeing it all get put together

(48:15):
and seeing people.
I was like, you know how a ton of movies gain a lot of traction really fast because of how
good the acting is or the story?
I think the satisfaction would come from seeing it all get put together, knowing the process
behind it and seeing people enjoy it.
And seeing that I was able to help create that with a group of people that also love

(48:39):
doing the same thing.
Yeah, other people that are passionate about what you're passionate about.
Do you feel like that experience would be satisfying enough that it would make the experience
of creating something that does not stir that in people worthwhile?
Is it worth making the crap content?
Is it worth putting the things out there that you need to put out there to learn in

(49:03):
order to get to that place where people take a look and they say, whoa.
Probably yeah.
I just get too scared.
I mean, it is scary, right?
It is when it's not something that you've done fully yet.
So, yeah.
When you first...
I just feel like I get scared about everything.
Kind of annoying.

(49:24):
Like there are so many things that I want to do, but I'm too scared.
Well, it kind of makes sense because the things you don't understand, you're afraid to let
out and the truth is you're never going to fully understand anything ever because it's
always changing, right?
But when you first said that, it made me think of the podcast because that's exactly what
was wrong with me.
I don't know how to start and it's got to be good.

(49:46):
And then it was finally when I realized that it's time for you to start making bad content.
I literally went out to try to make bad content crap.
And I knew I was going to post it because I had to.
And it never has been because it's so fun to make even if everyone hates it.

(50:07):
And I don't have any listeners, like maybe six or 12.
The people who are on the podcast are the listeners of it.
And they're the ones that are supposed to be the listeners.
But I'm saying I'm not popular.
I'm not known at all.
And it wouldn't make any difference.
It's so intensely satisfying to just see what happens and have the conversation.

(50:30):
And even if it doesn't, like my conversation with my mom, I may never post that.
I don't know how she's going to feel, but I would never post something that someone else
doesn't come for with.
But I already got all the satisfaction I need out of it.
Anyway, that's what it made me think of because I know what will happen in what.
I know that look that's going to shine out of your eyes when you are acting.

(50:51):
And it doesn't matter how many people like you.
It doesn't matter how many people connect with you because that's how new art is born
is an artist that no one can connect with at first.
Like everything fits.
And so I just want to do everything I can to try to be like, Hey.
Hey, because I've signed up for like, I keep getting emails from like casting, calling

(51:14):
in Portland.
I just don't have time to go actually try to do anything with it.
Which kind of sucks.
I can make time.
I have another question now that I wasn't going to ask, but now I want to.
You really enjoy watching content on Tik Tok.
I do.
You love it.
You really appreciate that there are people out there who will make.

(51:34):
I know where this is going.
Yeah.
And that's why I wasn't going to ask it because it's so obvious.
But now that we're having this part of the conversation, I feel like I want to.
Why don't you make content?
I'm scared of judgment.
Same reason you don't act.
Yeah.
Yes.
Because that's where it starts.
Yeah.
The only people that follow me are all of my friends at school.
A lot of people at school don't, I guess just a lot of people in general don't know

(51:58):
that that's something I want to do with my life.
I feel like a lot of people don't expect it.
Maybe they do now that you're raising your hand like that.
No, I just thought I have another question.
I'm scared that people, I'm scared it's going to be bad at first and people are going to
judge me.
Maybe if I make a completely separate count and block all the people, I don't want to
see it.
But eventually I want them to see it when I'm good.

(52:20):
I want them to see that I made something of myself, I guess.
Okay.
Do you feel like you're nobody right now before that?
A little bit, yeah.
Come on, man.
Come on.
Aw, flake.
But hold on.
You said, well, the only people who follow me right now are just my close friends.

(52:42):
And then you said, but if I could just block everyone that I don't want to see, then I
would just make this.
It's not necessarily just my close friends, it's just people at school.
That follow me.
The crazy thing is that right now there's nobody to see your crap content.
I know.
And by the time that somebody, by the time there's somebody to see it, it's not going
to be crap content.

(53:03):
Yeah.
Oh, oh.
Okay.
He's spitting truths.
I'm going to leave that dead horse alone.
No more beating of horses right here.
Yeah.
I got to do something about it.
He's very light beating, Michael.
He's pretty good at it.
You do not have to do something about it, but I am so excited to see what you do when
it's time.
Yeah, same, totally.
It's been time for a long time.
Bro.
College could be the thing, dude.

(53:24):
I want to minor in film.
If I go to college, I want to do something in film.
Awesome.
I'm just too scared to major in it because I don't know if I could make something out
of it.
Talk to Mara.
I want to.
Yeah.
Did Charlie tell you he's going to submit, he's planning to submit a horror film to
the Portland Horror Film Festival?
He started making content like nine months ago.
Yeah.
Wait, separate from his trailer?

(53:44):
Because that thing was so sick.
So many, every single adult that saw that said some version of, I want to see that movie.
I lost my mind.
I was like, this is incredible.
And someone at work gave me, showed me the Portland Horror Movie, whatever.
What is it?
I don't know.
Well, we all have to go, obviously.

(54:05):
And they take submissions, you know, and so Charlie's like, I'm going to submit my
movie.
It doesn't mean it's going to get in, but.
You could be in Charlie's movie.
I could.
I could be in this first white blonde chick that gets axed.
No, I'm not even blonde.
Dude, close enough.
Come on.
Come here.
I'm sorry, I'm just kidding.

(54:25):
You can live to the very end.
You're blonde.
We have the same hair color.
We kind of do.
I prefer strawberry blonde.
Oh, right.
I'm a sandy blonde.
I'm a dishwater.
Dishwater blonde.
Dishwater.
That's what I was growing up.
That's what people would say, dishwater.
Dishwater, that's like maybe a Midwest phrase or something.

(54:47):
Dishwater blonde and mouse brown.
Mouse brown.
Those are terribly, terrible descriptive words for her color.
Thank you because in the sunlight, my hair is a beautiful, reddish blonde color.
I feel like I'm in the brownie, brownie blonde.
Brownie blonde.
It's a brownie.

(55:07):
It's a blondie.
Brownie blonde.
It's a blondie.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One thing that I love about Logie is all of her inside jokes that she keeps in her brain.
I have too many.
Just to write them out.
And a book.
Yeah.

(55:27):
Yeah.
On your phone.
Yes, the quote book.
The quote book.
There are some weird ones in there.
Do we get to hear one of your quote book quotes?
Yes.
I'm going to see what the most recent one was.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, dude, I haven't heard them in a long time.
I feel like I haven't seen you in a million years.
I know, we went a month without seeing each other.
Yeah, and then like three weeks.
Two weeks.
Oh, it was one from our conversation the other night where I said, there's a staple on the

(55:51):
table.
At least it's not a thumbtack on the ground.
At least it's not a chainsaw on Helen Keller's pillow.
Oh, what?
Who said that?
I remember that one.
I said that, Michael, because I was cleaning off the table after dinner and I said, there's
a staple on here.
And I had just stepped on a thumbtack like one minute before that.
Yeah.
And we were going through all the things that could work.

(56:12):
And so I said, well, at least it's not a staple.
And then our final one was at least it's not a chainsaw on Helen Keller's pillow.
Wait, I get it, because she was dead.
Because you couldn't see her here and not hear it.
Oh, she was blind too.
Yeah, bro.
It was just the...
It's been a long time since I've studied up on my Helen Keller.
You need to get to it.
That's the way jokes go in this house.
Yeah, dude, they're always like straight to it.
Me?

(56:33):
Have you ever seen her editory?
Yes.
Tony Collette, man.
Bro.
What an act.
I feel like I should.
I feel like I should.
Do you know the scene where she tries to burn her kids in paint thinner?
Okay, then I can tell why I didn't see this.
I don't think it's free, Michael.
I did.
I told him, we were watching it, I said, if you ever wake up covered in paint thinner
and I'm holding a match, just know it was on purpose.

(56:53):
Oh my gosh.
You guys love each other so much.
So that is a genre that you really like.
I do.
I used to hate horn.
You kind of like gore.
I do.
I don't get grossed out.
Yeah.
I think I have you seen Planet Terror?
Some movie I've been trying to remember the name for years and it just popped into my

(57:15):
head.
Oh, well, that's perfect.
I think it's like a kind of a cult parody almost like it's so over the top.
I don't get grossed out, which is a blessing because I feel like a lot of horror movies
and kind of gross movies, even like Game of Thrones, such good acting, such good storytelling.
That's why I like it so much.
Not because of the gore.
It's not that I enjoy the messed up things that happened in there, but the story of it,

(57:41):
like the underlying themes of all of it is just like I'm able to understand it so well
and the acting, seeing people just like true emotion when someone's getting like brutally
stabbed.
I think that's why I like it.
Not the act of seeing people getting hurt.
Yeah.
But you like the art of it, dude.
Yeah.

(58:01):
You liked Salt Burn.
I did.
I did.
I love fucked up movies.
So mid summer.
Oh, wow.
One of my favorite movies ever.
Horrible, horrible, horrible.
So good though.
You need to watch.
Florence Pugh.
Insane.
Okay.
Florence Pugh, great.
She's in Midsommar.
Everything else about it?
Horrible.
That's probably the first time I ever saw her then.

(58:22):
I mean, because that movie came out years ago.
That's the first time I saw her too.
Wow.
In Little Woman.
I don't think I've watched that.
What?
I know.
And I used to read those books in my home.
He's got to do with the shallower man, bro.
I love him.
I will try to watch your movies.
You're going to be a great movie maker and I'm going to try to watch your movies.
Dude, yeah.
You can act for a little bit.
I want to be in a horror movie so bad.

(58:42):
Just be a director.
Well, you and Charlie should freaking do it.
Seriously.
Come on.
I know.
You both want that and you like it.
Yeah.
Okay.
We could play siblings.
You could help write the script if you like to write.
I could.
I do love to.
Oh my gosh, we're writing and creative writing right now.
We're supposed to write a story based on a song.
Oh, what a good assignment.
It's my favorite thing.
I was falling asleep the other night.

(59:03):
It just kept coming to me.
I just wrote it all down in my notes.
That's how her brain works.
It's how my brain works.
You are an artist.
Well, everybody is, but you've like found that spot inside.
Oh my goodness.
That is so exciting.
That is super.
Great.
Great.
Great.
Great.
I'd write a script to a movie and star in it.
Yeah, obviously.

(59:24):
That'd be so fun.
Do you know who May Martin is?
I don't think so.
They are a queer comedian hilarious.
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Brilliant.
Brilliant.
Brilliant.
Yeah.
So they have a show on Netflix coming out and now the, of course, the title just like
literally left my brain, but it's supposed to be pretty good.
So I'll let you know.
Gosh, dang it.

(59:45):
That's going to bother me.
Okay.
But I thought of you.
I'll look it up.
Yeah.
But they play in it.
So the reason I thought of that is because they write all the shows that they're in
and then they're usually like the show runner.
They are in it, but they're not like the main character.
Yeah.
So it's supposed to be pretty good.
It's going to be kind of sinister.
So I think it's like right up your alley.
Yeah.

(01:00:05):
Yeah.
Wayward.
That's what it's called.
Okay.
Wayward.
I'll keep an eye out.
That was probably unnecessary, but I just thought that you probably like that.
Mary, every second of this is unnecessary.
It is just for fun.
What are you most afraid of?
Judgment.
People hating me.
We should have known that, but we didn't.

(01:00:26):
We didn't.
Because I was like, what is this?
I was just most afraid.
I think she was going to answer very quickly.
I'm scared of failure.
Is failure even real?
No.
I've been thinking about that a lot lately.
Is judgment real?
It's not real, but it's like, to shay.
Judgment from myself or other people.
Yeah.
It's the same thing.
That's what I'm most scared of.

(01:00:46):
Do you think you've never been judged by anybody ever in your whole life?
Definitely have.
And you're still alive.
I am, but I do feel guilty about it.
About being alive?
I've never been judged.
About being judged.
Things that like, I guess.
Guilt or shame.
Both.
Same thing.
Different.
They're cousins.
They're cousins.

(01:01:07):
They're blended family siblings.
Different feelings.
You guys get that.
That was good.
Me and Ike.
We're guilty and shamed.
We kind of are.
We kind of are.
Guilt and shame.
I like that.
All right.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
I'm scared of being judged.
I'm people-pleaser.
I feel like I always have been.

(01:01:30):
You'll outgrow that, hopefully.
You are in the process of actively outgrowing that from everything that I can see and that
you've been saying.
Yeah.
Definitely working on it.
What's uppermost in your conscious thoughts these days, in general?
I'm just stressed right now.

(01:01:50):
I'm kind of scared of everything at the moment.
I feel like I'm in a constant up and down of feeling good and feeling really bad.
I guess I'm just kind of scared that that's going to be like that forever, which I kind
of feel like is the main thing, I guess.
A little bit worried about just staying in a rut.
Yeah.

(01:02:10):
Staying in a rut.
Not even that.
I know I'll feel happy.
I feel happy at times.
I go a long time while feeling happy.
Then when I do come down from it, it's always aggressive.
Then I always just feel so down for so long.
I'm scared it's just going to be that roller coaster up and down for forever.

(01:02:32):
I'd rather be in a long rut forever than have the up and down all the time.
You don't want to have the happiness to remember that there is an up out of the down?
You don't want to have to go through the extreme changes.
Yeah, I think it's just the extreme changes because I feel so much clarity when I'm feeling

(01:02:54):
better.
I feel like I'm able to understand things more without the impending doom.
I think it's just knowing that my brain can go from so happy understanding things so clearly
to just the complete opposite that it's like, I don't know why it does that and I don't
know how that works.
I don't like that.

(01:03:16):
I'd rather have understanding things in a depressing way than doing both.
Why did I have such a switch?
It's like, I don't know.
You're not alone, my friend.
If you had a global platform that you could just speak for a minute or just a few seconds

(01:03:40):
or something and everybody on earth would hear it, at least have a chance to hear it.
What would you say?
What do you think everyone on earth needs to hear?
What?
I can ask it in a different way if you want.
No, I think I'm understanding.
I just don't know.
I feel like, dang, that's hard.
If you were on your death bed and about to die and you could leave your friends and

(01:04:08):
family with one thing, what would feel like the most important thing to say?
There's too much.
Narrow it down to one thing.
Is that what you'd say?
I think so.
Your family.
There's too much.
I think I would say that life is precious.
It's really rare to be alive.

(01:04:30):
I feel like along those lines.
Why do you feel like it's rare?
The amount of semen that men have.
If I was conceived a day later and got a different semen, I wouldn't be alive.
I wouldn't be alive.

(01:04:51):
The simple act of that connection is so unlikely.
You are so funny.
Do you think if I got a different semen?
No, that's how it works.
If I was conceived two minutes later, I wouldn't be alive.
Me?
Me?
It would be different.
This guy?
This guy right here?
I don't understand how that works.

(01:05:13):
But it was you.
I know.
That's the rare part.
Way to send yourself into an existential crisis, dude.
No wonder there's ups and downs.
That brain is doing some work.
That's cool though.
It's cool to think about.
Semen?
But then it can go completely different ways.
I couldn't even be alive right now.
No one would even think differently about that because there was just another person.

(01:05:36):
Or if you were alive but you were like, Ike.
Right?
What if I was born into a different family?
I would be a completely different person.
Oh yeah.
Definitely different with this family.
This is the only family that a you could have any chance of.
I don't know.

(01:05:57):
Yeah, I know.
That's the thing I've realized is this is the only family that a me would be a me in.
It's really weird.
Very weird.
That is trippy to think about.
Or if something went different, like butterfly effect, that makes me.
What happens every minute of every day?
I know.

(01:06:17):
I've been in a movie for a really long time.
I always regret things or get mad about stuff that's happened in the past.
I wouldn't be who I am.
I wouldn't have learned from anything.
Yeah, that makes sense.
It's easy to look back at the past and be like, what if I would have done this and then this
thing would have happened instead.
But you don't even know that.

(01:06:37):
Yeah.
You know, but it's easy to get caught in that loop.
Like the big stuff I feel like you'd know though, with past friendships or relationships,
even if they're so heartbreaking when they end or they were so good, you're not able
to learn from them.
I feel like that's a big one for me.
I get really mad when I think about some stuff in the past that people have done to me.

(01:06:59):
But then I'm like, I wouldn't understand it otherwise and I wouldn't know how to avoid
it now.
Yeah.
So butterfly effect, it's rare.
Is that what that means?
No.
What is it?
What kind of it's like?
Explain that to me.
I think, I think it's like this thing happens so that this thing happens.

(01:07:23):
A butterfly to like cocoon somebody and then go through the journey of...
No, the nutshell concept is a butterfly flaps its wings right here and through the course
of events that that changes things, there's a hurricane around the other side of the world
somewhere else.
It's like one thing causes another thing to happen.
Like that one little tiny thing, just a flap of a butterfly wing triggered the series of

(01:07:44):
events that cause this whole giant thing to happen that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
And like that's a dramatic version of it.
So like a little tiny, like a little tiny...
Yes, that is.
Yeah.
Little tiny action.
Something small that happened caused all this other stuff to happen.
Or if that didn't happen, things would be completely different.
Or you say, you guys watch the movie.
Yeah, you say a word to somebody as you're walking down the street and that makes them

(01:08:06):
do something different so then they get hit by a car.
You know, just like...
Yeah, it's...
Or not, dude.
Maybe they just pay for somebody else's coffee.
Or maybe it was a bus.
Or maybe it was a moped.
It depends on what kind of butterfly it was.
Monarchs equal mopeds.
Ooh, good point.
Come on, Mary, you know this stuff.

(01:08:28):
Monarchs equal mopeds.
Yep, Monarchs equal mopeds in the butterfly effect.
Actually, is that part of the movie, you guys?
No, no, I've never seen the movie.
I just know what it is.
It's not even part of reality.
It's just like...
It's all made up.
Oh, it's not like...
It's like who's line is it?
It's genuinely like, it's like made up but it's also like a thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like things happen for reasons.

(01:08:48):
I'm saying the descriptions.
Well, yeah, I mean, the concept of it is obviously...
Yeah.
Is Ashton Kutcher in that movie?
I don't know.
I've never seen...
I didn't know that there was a movie about it.
Oh.
It's called Mothman.
No, it's called the butterfly effect.
I'm so confused.
There's actually a movie called the butterfly effect.
Oh my gosh.
The butterfly effect is just a thing.
Wait, really?
Yes.

(01:09:09):
It's like a placebo effect.
Oh my gosh.
No, dude, you have to watch the movie Butterfly Effect.
I'll watch the movie.
It's dark.
It's probably about...
You're gonna love it.
Yes.
You guys are both sick and twisted and demented.
Yeah, I know.
I've been told.
When Logie and I first became friends.

(01:09:31):
The grape.
The grape.
The grape.
Yeah.
I threw a grape into Logie's mouth.
Yep.
From across the kitchen.
Across the kitchen.
And I was holding Gussie down.
So we didn't catch it.
It was like a butterfly effect.
Yes, it was the only...
I mean, at that point, the friendship, it just already is.
We could not.
Yeah.
But then we found out that we didn't like any of the same TV shows.

(01:09:53):
We didn't like any of the same things.
We were like...
We're not friends because...
No, we do now though.
We're actually realizing there's a lot of things.
We both are obsessed with no con.
We are.
My song concert.
Pretty, pretty cool.
Oh my gosh, those two songs that you showed me when we were driving to Dairy Queen with
Mia like months ago.
Listen to them all the time.

(01:10:14):
By him?
From his older...
Post behind in any way or something.
Two of my favorite songs.
Keep me in your tail you that.
He's incredible.
I think that we...
I'm sorry to interrupt the conversation about Rat Boy music, but...
Rat Boy?
Rat Boy music, yes.
What does that mean?
Is this another Butterfly Facts?
No, no, no, no.

(01:10:34):
We're talking about Noah Conn, right?
Yeah.
Why Rat Boy?
Well, because what I don't like, I'm going to put derogatory names on.
You don't like Noah Conn?
Do I have to?
Is it a prerequisite?
You don't have to.
I'm just judging you, judging you, judging you.
There's probably one Noah Conn song I like, but I haven't heard it yet.
Fair enough.
It can not be your type of music.
Speaking of darkness, I like to listen to him when I'm sad.

(01:10:56):
Me too.
Pretty, pretty fire.
What about Rat Boy music?
That was what I was interrupting to be like, we needed to sit down and record with Mike
Fourthchair.
Yes, he told me about that.
That was great.
I put a little bit of a kibosh on it.

(01:11:17):
Really?
Oh, for this time.
Yeah, I wanted you to have your own episode.
But Mary.
No, yeah, I appreciate that.
But that's why I...
Because I have all the ideas and half of them, at least 90% of them are bad.
Those two together would be insane.
Why do you think I...
I'm going to be sitting here like this.
The amount of inside jokes we have.
We don't even have conversations.
It'd be like people would listen to it and be like, okay, we're going to figure out what

(01:11:39):
they're saying.
It's a different language.
It's code.
Maybe you won't even know.
You'll never know.
The army is going to recruit you guys for encoding messages and stuff.
Because of Russian spies.
Uh-oh.
No, because you have a language that no one knows.
Communist.
And it can't be cracked.
Like wind talking.
What's wind talking?
Wind talkers.
I mean, I have people that are apparently supposedly in my bloodline that were wind

(01:12:01):
talkers, I think.
What is a wind talker?
They...
Maybe not.
I might be making that up.
Is a wind talker when somebody talks as a gust of wind is coming and then their message
gets sent where it's supposed to be?
My understanding...
Can I love that idea?
My understanding of it, and it's a really sad story actually, but it's really also really
cool, is that during World War II, one of the huge deciders of the war was who could

(01:12:24):
communicate in a way that no one else could understand.
Everyone was coming up with these new encoding machines and trying to...
This family.
Yeah.
Wait.
No, for real.
Like when I first met you guys, I was like, I need to bring a fucking notebook next time.
You can go book.
Anyway.
This family.
So anyway, what the US came up with was Navajo.

(01:12:46):
Because apparently the Navajo language was...
If you didn't know it, you could...
Nobody could crack it.
Nobody could figure it out.
The problem was it required native Navajo people to go and communicate.
And so it was just...
There's books about it, but I don't think it ever was ever cracked in the wartime, and

(01:13:09):
no one else knew it.
And it was such a niche thing.
So wait, the US soldiers were taught this language?
No.
They actually had Navajo tribal people that would travel and relay the messages.
And those are the wind talkers?
Yeah, those wind talkers.
Okay, cool.
Yeah.
Now I need to go research it to make sure that I'm not making this all up.

(01:13:29):
But I've read a lot...
In my past life, I've read a lot of World War II stuff.
So yeah.
That's fascinating.
And apparently...
Apparently I've never been on live television before.
Never ever, never ever, capetato been on live television before.
You guys are quoting stuff you watch on TikTok?

(01:13:51):
Yep.
YouTube.
His name is also Noah, and he's not a rat boy.
No.
He's ginger.
He has no soul.
What?
Logie?
Michael?
Mary?
Mary?
Mary's exiled.
Thanks for doing this.

(01:14:12):
Of course.
And please start making bad content.
I will.
I would dearly love to see it.
I will follow whatever it is.
If you want, we can judge you first.
No.
I will judge you as perfect.
And then...
I just want to see it.
This is cool.
It's fun, right?
I was kind of scared.
I don't talk about myself a lot.

(01:14:42):
You don't.
You did great.
I learned a lot about you.
I was also scared.
Why?
I've never had this conversation because I knew you were.
I don't know because I haven't done this.
You were scared because you knew I was scared.
I was scared.
That's really cute.
I don't want it to be...
Because what if I don't have...
I can't think of one question to ask you and can't think of anything and then we sit
here and then you're just like, well...
What the fuck am I doing?

(01:15:02):
I don't know.
Fear is all made up inside of a person's mind.
But I really appreciate that.
You did it.
I was excited.
Thank you.
What's wrong with you guys?
I liked it.
I was stoked.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
I feel like I definitely got into it.
At first I was scared, but then I settled into it.
Mary?
You did great, dude.
Thank you.
Yeah.

(01:15:23):
You seemed pretty relaxed the whole time.
Yeah.
Good job, Mary.
Thanks.
You did fantastic.
Thanks for having me here.
I'll be here all week.
You have my full, full support.
Actually, I won't be here this week.
Girl, I don't even live with you.
Girl, I don't even live with you this week.
Oh yeah, you're moving this week.
What?
You'll be back.
You move every week.
Oh, I was like, what?
I'm going to Florida again.
I've never been to Florida.
Oh.

(01:15:43):
Don't go.
I don't want to.
Road trip someday.
One day.
I'm going to Florida.
Road trip someday.
One day.
You do.
Florida, there's some cool spots, but you can skip it.
Yeah, I know.
Because why not?
Is there anywhere you want to travel?

(01:16:03):
Europe.
Cool.
Is Italy the top spot?
I also want to go to, I don't know if it is.
I think Spain would be cool.
Scotland.
Yeah.
Italy's the type of rice in India.
What?
I also want to go back to a tropical spot.
Yeah.
I am myself on an island.
My freckles are back.

(01:16:23):
Did you say you are yourself on an island?
I feel like I am.
Wow.
Not like true.
I'm bringing things out in people, dude.
Just like being, I feel like I'm, I don't know.
I don't know.
I liked it.
It's good.
Go chase that feeling.
I will.
Thank you for being your beautiful, playful, amazing self.

(01:16:45):
Of course.
That was great.
Keep on keeping on.
I will.
Trey.
Trey.
You're welcome.
I will.
Just, if you don't remember anything else of the advice that we're giving you right
now, start making good content.
I will, I will, I will.
Maybe I'll make it like another account.
I'm just going to push you just enough to piss you off and then I'm just going to laugh.

(01:17:08):
At least start making them and putting them into drafts.
Hey.
Honestly.
Then when I get one, then I'm, this is, this feels good.
That's a good idea.
Because it'll have all the shit content together, but it doesn't mean I have to post it yet.
By the way, Amanda from my work, she worked for a fashion magazine.

(01:17:29):
She's like a design.
She is somebody that you need to meet and eventually you will, but she's going to be
a resource for any questions that you have.
As soon as you have questions or start having questions and you want another resource, Amanda
is it.
So.
You have resources.
I do.
Yeah.
I know Mariah knows a guy.

(01:17:49):
Yeah.
She probably does.
Mariah knows a lot of people.
Yeah.
Great.
You guys are great.
Ditto.
And break.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Thanks for traveling another world with Emotion Art.

(01:18:14):
If you enjoyed the conversation, please let us know.
You can email me at Michael at this is emotion art.com.
Your feedback helps build our momentum, which is just going to bring you more stories from
other worlds.
So let us know what you think.
Good, bad or otherwise.
And yes, please.

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