Moriah: from the cult - a voice that grew - this is emotionart

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This is emotion art.

(00:04):
The E in emotion is short for X,
the Latin root word for out or outward.
And motion is movement, movement outward.
Art is conscious creative energy.
Conscious creative energy in outward motion.

(00:27):
Emotion art.
These conversations have been sounding a lot better lately.
Thanks to Buddy Anderson and his mad sound engineering
and music creation skills.
Thank you, Buddy.
You've definitely taken the sound to a new level.
Check out Buddy's art on Spotify at From Another Mista.
We'll have a link in the notes.

(00:50):
Angela, thank you for your curiosity and your energy.
Thanks for making this a lot of fun.
And each one of you that sticks your neck out to
offer me some encouragement or criticism.
Thank you.
It's a trite saying,
but you don't know how much it means to me.
I try to tell you, but in case I don't tell you enough,

(01:14):
I really appreciate you guys just accepting me.
Those of you who sit down to record a conversation with me,
thank you.
It's a gift.
If you want to record a conversation
and I haven't reached out to you,
reach out to me.
The most important ingredient to a really good conversation
is just the desire to have it.

(01:34):
So wherever that desire exists, I'd like to explore.
And if you think you're not good at putting
your thoughts into words,
or if you're afraid you don't have anything
interesting to say, welcome.
We all feel that way all the time.
If you want to face your fear,
I'd love to face it with you.

(01:56):
Let's sit down and get comfortable,
turn on the microphones and find out what's in there.
Think about it.
And now welcome to a conversation with Mariah Avery,
my sister.
Mariah's my sister by blood,
but she's also my chosen sister.
Mariah and I have a deeply shared connection

(02:18):
in that we've experienced very similar stages
for the most part.
I feel like most of my growing up life
was spent doing the thing that Mariah had just done.
So it was kind of like I was following her
on a four year lag.
And she was in the Jim Roberts group for four years.

(02:40):
And then I joined the Jim Roberts group and she left.
And then she went to the Amish and then I joined her there.
Anyway, there's a deep thread of connection
in the similarity of the circumstances we experienced,
but we did not experience them together.
So in a super important way,

(03:00):
it feels like we didn't grow up together.
And I've kind of only gotten to know her in the past
maybe five to 10 years, and I'm thankful.
Mariah, this confusing life is starting to get really fun.
I can see that it feels that way for you too.
I just wanna remind you, this is just the beginning.

(03:25):
Just the beginning, just the beginning.
Welcome to emotion art.
Emotion art, where we sit down and make art.
Emotion art.
Creative energy, moving outward
in conscious expression of feelings.
Emotion art.
Emotion art.

(03:45):
Emotion art.
Emotion art.
Emotion because we are literally made of emotion.
Art because everything we do wants to be art.
Emotion art.
Feel, feel, feel, feel, feel.
Emotion art.
It's all beautiful.
Emotion art.
Emotion.
Emotion art.
A space for emotional art.
Creative energy moving outward in conscious expression.

(04:08):
Emotion art.
An emotion art gallery.
This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this,
this is emotion art.
You're welcome.
How's your ear volume?
It sounds good.
Great.
It's not like uncomfortable.
And I am pretty sensitive to sound.
So that's saying something.

(04:30):
How's your energy volume?
It's peaceful.
You feel peaceful?
Mm-hmm.
I like to just take a couple of minutes
to just bring my mind all the way inside my body.
How do I look with your pants on my head?
Sort of saintly.
In like an Eastern Orthodox sort of way.

(04:51):
There we go.
Like a halo?
No, like a burlap sack.
Hello, Maria.
Hi, Michael.
It's good to talk to you.
I'm excited.
I know some parts of your story.
You and I didn't really spend a lot
of time growing up together.
No.
We kind of missed each other in our growing up years.

(05:12):
I feel like I missed most of my siblings
in the growing up years.
I feel honestly like I was an only child
until I hit my 20s and got to know you guys again.
I'd like to see some of the breast strokes
of the painting of that only child.
It was pretty lonely.
Yeah.
Where were you born?

(05:33):
Corvallis, Oregon.
So I've been told.
I don't remember it, obviously.
Give me like a little intro story
of the life and times of Maria.
Where'd you come from?
How'd you get your start?
Well, I guess I can give you the story
that I give everybody when they ask me about my life.

(05:55):
It's pretty brief.
Or just tell me what are your earliest memories
of your childhood?
Or what do they feel like?
Or do you have any?
I don't have a lot.
I would say my earliest memory is a man with red hair
and a beard was holding me and dad was there.
And I remember being terrified of the beard.

(06:18):
I'm assuming that's a Jim Roberts group memory.
Probably.
Yeah.
How much do you remember of your early time
in the Jim Roberts group?
I have flashes.
You know, I remember playing with you guys.
What jumps out there?
Can you see one of the memories?
Yeah.
You were, I think you were sitting on a,
no, that wasn't you.

(06:38):
That was Shemaya.
Shemaya is my first memory.
And he was sitting on a, he had gotten sunburned.
He had blisters on his nose and he was sitting on a ball
and he fell off and he was crying.
And I saw the blisters had popped
and I just felt horrible for him because it was very painful.
I remember Nicholas had a really bad stomach ache.

(07:00):
It was another kid there.
And he was throwing up and I remember just feeling
really nauseous and empathetic.
Those were the earliests.
There's lots more, but.
Both of those memories share a category.
Oh, they do?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, the person in trouble
and you feeling really bad for them.
Yeah, I guess.
Do you have other types of memories

(07:21):
that pop right up from those early times?
Angela Dixon being super morning sick
with her pregnancy and really she threw up really loud.
And I remember being like, oh my God, the poor thing.
Thank you.
That's fantastic.
Oh my God.
I remember dad, he was carrying Isaac

(07:44):
and we were hiking in the woods and he snapped his knee.
And I remember his cry of pain.
And it felt like someone stabbed me
because I could just feel how much he hurt.
And I looked at him and I was like, oh my God, are you okay?
It sounds like you were a pretty sensitive youngster.
I think so.

(08:04):
I was always looking for fun though,
but it usually got me into trouble.
Unreasonably so, but still got me into trouble.
How so?
Well, I don't think as a kid,
your mind is fully aware of all the nuances
and rules that are imposed on you.
And so you think you're doing something right,
but you're actually doing something wrong

(08:25):
and then you get in trouble for it.
So I'm kind of reading between the lines here
and is it less that you were actually doing something wrong?
Oh, I wasn't doing anything wrong.
I just got in trouble.
Okay, okay.
Yeah.
I just wanted to go play or I would laugh too loud
or something.
Yeah.
I have another memory of,

(08:45):
I think mom might've been trying to teach me to be sober
and-
Like not drink as much?
No, like not laugh, not be loud, be like my head down.
And I remember feeling so frustrated and just crying
cause my neck hurts so bad from keeping my head down.
And every time I'd pick it up, she'd put it down.

(09:08):
And I was like, ah, this really hurts.
And I couldn't understand it,
but I also remember trying to learn fractions
from an old like 1800s book.
And I was just sitting on the kitchen floor crying
and mom sat down next to me
and she just really walked me through it and helped me.

(09:29):
And I remember feeling really grateful for that
because she always tried to take time to meet us
or meet me where I needed help to the best of her ability.
As is always the case with all of us,
best of our abilities.
I mean, what I'm envisioning is that
like the Zmarbich group sobriety was such a huge thing

(09:51):
and sobriety to them and not laughing or joking.
Being somber.
And shame-based-ness.
They felt that women should be looking at the ground.
And that's what I'm imagining.
I mean, how old are you?
I mean, you were young.
Mom and dad joined when I was four.

(10:13):
But I think that was probably,
I was probably more six or seven.
But anyway, in that range,
having your head be pushed down
to look at the ground constantly.
Well, I remember not understanding it.
I knew that's what they wanted me to do and I tried,
but my personality is very much like,

(10:35):
let me do this and then something catches my eye
or something, my thoughts cheer me up.
And so then I forget.
So, I mean, it sounds like this whole first part
of your life is really patchworky.
It is. Just spotty.
I mean, I have a lot more memories,
but most of them I've noticed as I've gotten older

(10:56):
are around a feeling of strong emotion.
Like whether it's really happy or scared or sad.
So are you saying that the memory itself
is just an emotion?
It's like the only memory that was strong enough to stick.
I see. Okay, okay.
So you're saying that the memories you have
are ones that are tied to very strong emotions.

(11:18):
Yes.
So there is a lot of patchwork because, you know,
most of my memories are sadly,
they're either me being punished
or me witnessing someone hurting or rebellion,
me starting to be like, no.
Does it feel like there's big chunks of your past
that you're missing?

(11:39):
Like, are you curious about what's between the gaps?
I would love to have more of a complete childhood memory,
but I feel like I got the highlights
and it could be completely wrong,
but it's from a child's point of view.
By the highlights, do you mean the memories
that are paired with intense emotions?

(12:00):
Yeah, there's enough of them through my years
that I know I was alive.
Yeah.
Do you believe those memories are lost forever
or do you think it's possible to somehow find them again
or some of them?
No one remembers everything.
They don't feel accessible to me.
Honestly, I feel worried that if I did therapy or whatever,

(12:22):
that it would maybe end up being something
that wasn't actually there, didn't actually happen,
but suddenly I make it that, so it might not be authentic.
Do you kind of make up realities for yourself
on a regular basis?
Have you done that before?
Real life realities?
No.

(12:42):
Something in your awareness, have you done this thing
that you're afraid of?
No.
Why do you think that would happen?
Because I don't have memories of these moments.
Have you been to therapy before?
Not really.
Okay.
Our family has an intense therapy phobia.
I actually would love to.
I have done very little of it,

(13:04):
but I have sat in some therapy.
What I do mostly is I read the books
that the therapist write, and it's changed my life.
Therapy is like real therapy.
I mean, there are people that are just out there
doing a career and they don't care.
I'm sure that exists, but if you don't resonate
with somebody, they're not gonna be your therapist.

(13:26):
You're gonna be like, whoa, this person,
they're giving me tools.
They're putting things in ways that I can understand,
and really a therapist's job is not to teach you anything.
It's just to help you get to know yourself.
Yeah.
I actually have a client right now who is a therapist.
I've bonded with her.
She feels like family, and I've talked to her

(13:47):
a little bit about it and told her that when we're done
with me selling her house and helping her buy one,
I would really like to explore.
She's my friend, so she can't, but she will be my friend.
I see.
And kind of support me.
Cha-ching, bro.

(14:07):
That's valuable.
Yeah, I know.
I felt really, really safe.
And you have a lot of people.
I do.
In your life who are a place to talk,
and that's really what therapy is.
And everybody feels a little bit of a different spot.
And that is something that I very much value.
Yeah.
So I have a feeling you are more familiar with therapy

(14:29):
than you might realize.
And I actually, I personally think that I'm really good
at helping people process things.
So I think that I would make a great therapist.
Just so you know, because I used to feel the same way
about therapists.
It's like when I was interviewing dad,
he was talking about somebody who had,

(14:51):
comes from a family of therapists.
And you could tell from the way he said it to him,
that was like a terrible thing.
Like, oh my goodness, this kid is just definitely
a ruined kid.
And it makes perfect sense from really fundamentalist,
Christian perspective.
I think the reason that someone is a good therapist

(15:11):
is because they have love, and they have support,
and they have the ability to make room
for that person to process.
Yes.
And I feel like I'm very equipped for that.
It's actually kind of a dream of mine
to get the credentials I need for that.
Really?
Yeah.
You want to get into therapy.

(15:33):
I am actually.
Yeah, I have for years I wanted to.
Like what modality or what branch?
I've always had a huge heart and passion for veterans.
So like, would that be like more of a behavioral therapist
or counseling type?
I honestly, I don't know the legality,
like the terms of it or anything like that.

(15:54):
You've just got a little baby dream, girl.
Oh, I've had it for years.
Hell, yes.
So before I got pregnant with Jacob.
Oh, I love this.
I was one semester from finishing
my bachelor's in psychology.
Lucky.
Yeah, well, I don't have it anymore
because it was a for-profit school,
and I couldn't finish because I was so sick.

(16:16):
And then when I went back, they said, no, sorry.
You have to pay all that.
And I said, well, I need to get a job to do that.
And they said no.
And I said, can you transfer my credits?
And they said, nope.
But anyway, my dream is to.
Oh, that sucks, though.
Yeah, it feels very unfinished.
Is there any way for you to get any of those lost transcripts

(16:38):
back?
So you have to start over from scratch?
I have a two-year degree that I can transfer.
But don't you have to have, like what do you have to get to?
Masters.
So I would have a good six years, I think.
Is masters the one above?
Bachelor's.
Oh, OK.
And that would be entry level.
Yes.
Then if you really want to go into a PhD.

(17:00):
Is there any part of you that feels like that
could be you someday?
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Do you intend to get your PhD, Mariah?
I want to.
As soon as Jesse and I have.
I just have chills right now.
This is crazy.
You know, work and everything together.
He's totally supportive of it.

(17:21):
Oh, I love this.
Because that's always been my passion.
It's what I feel like I'm instinctively good at.
And it comes naturally to me.
I don't have to think about it.
But I don't know all the tricks and the stuff.
So I feel like I have the basis for it.
But I need to learn.
You have the life experience for it.

(17:42):
Yeah.
You just need to learn the school part.
Yeah.
Great.
And I don't mind school.
Although giving a dissertation, I feel,
would make me very nervous.
Yeah.
Until you do it.
I guess.
You're a natural speaker, of course.
You know that.
No.
Oh, OK.
You'll figure it out.
Stage fright.

(18:04):
You know what another name for stage fright is?
Caring what someone thinks.
Imposter syndrome.
Well, I have that.
Yeah.
I got a great podcast for you then.
OK.
Art of Charm.
The Art of Charm is where I found out
that I have imposter syndrome.
And where I found out that I have nice guy syndrome.
And where I found out that I'm basically

(18:26):
a completely dysfunctional human.
And then these two funny guys that are just like, oh yeah,
we're like humans, I guess.
And we're trying to figure this out.
Like, oh, let's talk to this person.
Hey.
Oh yeah.
This is why this happens in relationships.
This is why you have this feeling when
that person talks to you like that.
Oh, wait a minute.
I just never learned any of that stuff.

(18:47):
I didn't know.
Art of Charm is where I started learning all that stuff.
OK.
Yeah.
They're great.
Nice.
Dude, especially their relationship one.
I think last year on Valentine's,
they did like a four part thing over Valentine's
on different relationship aspects.
It makes a simple sense in a way that I rarely hear.

(19:10):
Just made things much easier to understand.
OK.
Yes.
So how long, and when you say that it
feels like your memory started to resolve a little bit.
Like maybe even if you don't have all your memories,
they're still a little more fluid.
I would say about 16.
I have more of them.

(19:30):
But I don't feel like, I feel like I've trained my brain
to just remember highlights.
OK.
How about this?
In the beginning, you said, OK, maybe I'll just
tell the thing I normally tell people.
Yeah.
That sounds like a great way to start.
I'm just saying, I'm trying to practice putting less force

(19:51):
into conversations.
I actually appreciate it because.
Well, there's a balance though.
I'm trying to find my balance.
The canned version of me telling my life story,
it's just a sum.
But it also doesn't take very long, does it?
No.
Let's open that can.
Like let's just dig in there and just go
through it to the bottom.
Whatever it is that comes out of that stream of consciousness

(20:13):
there, start wherever you want and take us on a little trip.
OK.
Well, I was born in Corvallis, Oregon.
And my parents, when I was four, joined a cult, the Jim Roberts
group.
And I always have to say this because people are always
at that point saying, what?

(20:35):
A cult?
Oh my god.
Who is it?
Excuse me.
Can we keep the commentary from the audience down?
OK, you can continue.
I'm so sorry about that.
That's fine.
So I always say, well, you can go online and look it up.
Actually, you can.
Yeah.
And there's actually.
Diane Sawyer.

(20:55):
Well, not only that.
Ooh.
Jesse was doing, because he's a big researcher.
Sure.
Of course he is.
He was doing some research on it.
And he found a paper from Harvard
that someone had written on Jim Roberts.
And apparently, this is what he said.
Here we go.
Let's get some salacious stuff out here.
Apparently, Jim Roberts is linked

(21:17):
to people in all of the notorious cults that we've
known about, like Waco and all that.
The people that caused those had some sort of contact
or relationship with Jim Roberts that damaged them
and caused them to.
Anyway, it was a whole thing.
I can't find it anymore, but I did read it.

(21:40):
OK.
If it can be found once, it can be found again.
So number one, I want to read that.
I want to see it.
Number two, have you ever played the game Seven Degrees?
No.
Well, I just literally said everything
I know about it, because I haven't really played it.
But my understanding is you can basically
prove that you are connected in some way to any famous person

(22:01):
through Seven Degrees.
So it's like when someone says they were connected to,
I'm like, OK, but that could mean literally anything.
I'd be interested in reading it.
I want to find it.
I'm going to ask Jesse.
Does Jesse still know?
Can he find it again?
I don't know.
OK.
I haven't talked to him about it since.
There was a lot in that paper of things
that gave me an impression of the cult that we were up in

(22:24):
as being way worse than we were aware of and way bigger, way
bigger.
My thought was like a couple hundred people, 3,000.
There's just a lot that, as a kid, we didn't know.
And I don't even know if it's.
There's also a lot of people that
hated the Jim Roberts group, or still do,

(22:45):
because one of the things a cult like that does
is they find a kid on a college campus who just doesn't really
have any direction.
And maybe they just got broke up.
You know, life's going hard.
And they're in school.
And they're lonely.
And they're just like, hey, I have a way out of this pain.
It's just the same.
Everyone that wants to bring healing to the world,

(23:05):
the people that were out there on the streets,
they were genuinely beautiful souls.
And leadership, I mean, power corrupts.
That's just the way it is.
But these people really wanted.
They wanted to heal the world.
They wanted to bring.
But anyway, the point being that you go out to this kid,
and you're just like, we have hope for you.
And then this kid is like folded into this family,
in the warm, in the stew, and the we'll take care of you.

(23:29):
I remember them taking me to those places to witness.
And you can feel if someone's just trying to manipulate you
or genuinely feel something.
So yes, of course, seeing a kid and then seeing
people who honestly really believe it and have had
really good experiences, of course,
they're going to go for it.

(23:51):
And then once you're hooked emotionally, then it's like,
hey, these are the things that we're seeing in the Bible.
And these are the reasons that we know it's true.
This is what's coming.
It's this terrible, horrible situation
that we find ourselves in.
And we're part of something evil.
So burn your ID and social security card.

(24:12):
And I remember guys after they joined, brothers, being like,
yeah, I finally don't remember my social security number.
Because every time they think of it,
they add other numbers in to scramble it.
How weird.
Because to them, it's this whole new identity.
They found a family.
They found a place to belong and a place that gives them
this ultimate purpose, because it's
the purpose for the afterlife.

(24:33):
Yeah.
Dun, dun, dun.
Like nothing gets bigger than that.
That's the ultimate.
But on the flip side of that, just
with some people in our lives, it's crippling.
And it limits and gives so much worry.
And I don't know.
Yeah.
But these people, these kids, now you

(24:54):
have to give up everything you own,
because this world just ties you down.
And we have to free ourselves from this world
to be redeemed by God.
And so you give it all up.
And you cut ties.
You just leave home.
We'll leave wherever you are.
And you never go back.
And you live your life on the road.
And you just do whatever you're told to do.
And it's just this beautiful, connective family

(25:18):
that takes you away from everyone else who loves you
and wants to connect with you.
And so now all these people are just like, you're brainwashed.
And sometimes they'll write a letter home being like,
I'm doing what I want to do.
And the truth is, it's true.
They're doing what they want to do.
And they're being powerfully influenced emotionally.
I think the only thing that makes it bad

(25:38):
is that he was very good at playing people.
So these angry people, I mean, you see what you want to see.
Yeah.
I know that the Jim Arbush Group never had more than
two, maybe 400 at their absolute peak.
And I mean, I'm still in communication with people
who are part of whatever it has become now.

(25:59):
And it's just like, I have good relationships and stuff.
And I know a lot of people who know them.
There's a lot of people that are interested in.
I don't think it was.
They were never evil.
I don't think it was the group as much as that one person.
Jim Roberts? Yeah.
I mean, he had a penchant for wanting control.

(26:19):
He wanted to lead people and he found people
who wanted to follow and he was a broken,
flawed individual in his own ways.
But boy, I'd have a hard time believing that he was evil.
I mean, I couldn't believe it when he was reading that to me,
but I will try to find it and see.
Yeah.
What a epic sidetrack.
I know.

(26:40):
Jiminy Flapstake.
Okay.
Back to your story, please.
Wow.
Okay.
So I remember not ever really being with mom and dad
at the same time.
It was either one or the other.
And I remember not being able to play.
I mean, I remember playing with like sticks

(27:02):
and pretend and stuff,
but we'd have to be careful because, you know,
if they found out we were playing pretend,
that was not okay.
I remember after I left,
seeing people play with dolls and talking about that.
And I was just like, I had no idea.
Like I've never played with dolls.
I've noticed that when I say that,

(27:23):
people will just like their mouths drop open.
Just that lack of play things.
Yeah. Yeah.
I remember getting spanked for laughing too much,
never going to the doctor.
Like I remember getting like sores all in my mouth.
I don't know if I had drank after somebody,

(27:45):
but my entire mouth was covered with sores.
Mom said it smelled like a dead animal.
And I wasn't eating for like a week or drinking.
And they thought I was gonna die.
Wow.
And they were like, please,
can we take her to the doctor?
And no, but they prayed for me and I got better.
Thankfully.

(28:06):
I do remember that.
Do you know what it was?
That is one of my memories.
The only thing, embarrassing,
but I honestly think it was my first exposure to cold sores.
You know, it's not a fun thing to have.
Yeah.
And-
No, they're very painful.
Yeah.

(28:27):
And I know I was around six when that happened.
So I'm guessing I drank after somebody that had a cold sore
and it nearly killed me.
That's really embarrassing though.
I don't know why.
Interesting.
I would have said sidetracked you five more times now.
So I'm trying to just keep my mouth closed.

(28:50):
I want to just hear your story.
The sidetracks that are worthwhile, I'll remember.
Okay.
I remember being peed on by a lion.
Also when I was around six, we were at,
we had gone to Mexico and we were at the zoo
and there was this male lion and the enclosures
were not like super far away like they are in the US.

(29:12):
And I remember he was just staring at me.
And there was a lot of people around.
And I remember thinking, that's really weird.
Why is he staring at me?
And he just kept pacing in front of the fence
and then just like looking at me.
I was getting really uncomfortable.
I can imagine.
And all of a sudden he turns around
and there was like three or four lions in there.

(29:32):
It was just like, he turns around
and his tail goes straight up
and he just like shoots his pee or whatever right on my face.
Oh my gosh.
And I remember everybody around me just scattered
and I remember crying because I was like,
why are you picking on me?

(29:54):
Oh my goodness.
And I remember dad laughing and there was a hose
and he like sprayed me off,
but he marked his territory on me.
And I'm just like, that's not fair.
Like there was a hundred people around, why me?
But yeah, that's a memory I have.
Yeah, that's, you need therapy.

(30:14):
Thank you.
That sounds like trauma right there.
I would say the memories that have the most pain for me
are ones where I was disciplined
and I didn't understand why.
I didn't think I had done anything wrong.
And yeah, I feel like those are still like,
like when I talk about them,

(30:36):
I still feel some hurt about that.
But I have realized,
and this I only realized in my late thirties,
that it's okay to love my parents,
but to be angry at them.
Yes.
And it's helped me to let them go a little bit.
Like let that hurt feeling go
because it doesn't always have to make sense.

(30:58):
Sometimes it just is and it's what happened.
And another huge sadness in my life was,
well, you remember how dad told us about leaving the group.
I hate Denver to this day because I'm so sad.
Because of it.
Yeah.
I remember him taking us out and sitting us down

(31:19):
and saying, okay, I'm leaving
and they're trying to get rid of me.
So you can come with me and maybe see your mom again,
or you can stay with your mom and never see me again.
How old are you?
Nine.
That was really harsh for me.
I remember looking at you
and I didn't feel like you really got it.

(31:40):
Like that sort of a decision,
but we all went with dad.
And then the entire year that I lived in Portland with dad,
I was wracked with guilt over mom.
Like I had abandoned her.
She needed me.
She was not doing well.
So guilty.
And that's why I went back when I was 10.

(32:01):
And I stayed till I was 13.
And the bad memory for me is I walked out of the house
to go to dad's and you walked in the house.
And that is the only time we saw each other
in our entire childhood since we were like nine,
since I was nine.
And we didn't even stop.

(32:21):
Like we just walked past each other.
Yeah.
And that feels really like that was my brother
and I wasn't able to spend any time
or get to know him or anything.
You were 13.
Yeah.
And I was a brat.
I was like, this is crazy.
I'm not staying here anymore.
There's life to be had out there, but oh my gosh.

(32:43):
It took until I was 23 to learn how to live in society
after that.
Do you remember how it felt inside you in Denver
when dad was giving us that choice?
And what were the conditions?
Like we were like a block away from the house, right?
We weren't like across town.
And we were sitting on the sidewalk
in like the grassy area between.
Yeah.
And dad was really fair.

(33:04):
And he said, I will take you back if you wanna go back.
Yeah.
And he really did honestly give us a good fair choice.
Yeah.
But that's not fair to any kid.
The whole situation just kind of didn't feel fair
to anyone no matter how you look at it.
No.
I will admit I felt excited about not being in the group.
Yeah.
So you felt excitement primarily?

(33:26):
No.
Guilt and excitement.
And the excitement obviously went out for a year.
And then I was, the guilt was too strong.
And I remember sitting on dad's lap in the kitchen
after you guys had gone to bed in Portland.
And like when I turned 10 and I was just crying and crying.
And I said, mom needs me.

(33:46):
I just know she does.
Even though I hadn't talked to her.
And he was very understanding about it.
And he made it happen.
But that's not the kind of guilt that,
I didn't know what to do with it.
Yeah.
Now looking back, are you glad you went back?
That's not a fair question.
You don't have to answer that.
Because that's like a hypothetical question
about the past.

(34:07):
I think that it saved mom.
Really?
Oh, really?
Yeah.
But it didn't do anything for me.
Yeah.
So a wash overall?
No, not if it helped mom.
I think it was worth it.
Either way, it's what you did.
Yeah.
And if you hadn't, you wouldn't be the person you are today.

(34:27):
So good job.
You made a good choice.
Yeah.
Hey, man.
I just refuse to navigate the world this way.
What are you going to do?
Yeah.
Sorry, go ahead.
The year in Portland was definitely,
we went to private school, Foursquare.

(34:47):
And I remember really making friends with some people there.
And honestly, I'm still friends with them today.
Really?
Yeah.
We don't talk that much.
But we still stay in contact every now and then.
And Portland is where we went after we left Denver.
What do you remember about where we lived?
It was a bad neighborhood.

(35:08):
Still was a bad neighborhood.
Yeah.
I remember a lot of gangs.
I remember a lot of kids that were trying to influence.
And I remember noticing about myself
that I was being influenced.
I remember some neighbor kids down the street.
I was playing with them and they had to go home.
So I walked them.
And I remember their dad sitting on the steps.

(35:31):
And he's like, hey, Mariah, let me show you something.
And I was like, OK.
I'm so trusting.
And he's like, look at this.
And he pointed to the step.
And so I bent down to look at it.
And he's like, no, get closer.
It's really tiny or something like that.
And I did.
And he smashed my face into the cement step.

(35:53):
What?
Yeah.
And it hurt so bad.
I think it fractured my nose.
But the kind of person I am, I don't ever show that stuff.
So I laughed.
And I got up and walked home.
I don't even think I told dad about that my nose got hurt.
He didn't notice?
I don't know.
Who knows?
Dad worked all the time.

(36:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Why do you think he'd?
You know what?
You were just the memory.
Oh my god.
I just remembered another memory of Portland.
I think Don Shepard lived with us at the time.
And he had ordered a slinky.
And it was open.
And one of them said that you did it.
And I remember you getting spanked because you

(36:33):
said I didn't do it.
And I remember feeling just horrible for you
that you were hurting.
And then they found it somewhere else later.
He's like, oh, well, I guess somebody else opened it.
And I was like, it made me mad.
But I was very protective when someone would get hurt.
Sorry, another memory.
See?
The memories I have are always like traumatic ones.

(36:55):
And it's just very interesting for me
to watch the pattern through them.
Interesting.
Those are the things that grabbed your emotions.
You want to hear the funny thing about the nose getting
fractured when I was nine?
When I was 19, I was training a horse
to step up on something in the Amish.
It smashed my nose, went over to the side.

(37:16):
It was a bad smash.
Well, I was telling Jesse about it the other day
because we're still getting to know each other.
And he's like, that should have killed you.
The way that the horse hit me in the up position.
Sure, should have gone in instead of sideways.
It should have gone into me.
And he's like, was your nose broken before?
And I said, well, when I was nine,
I think it got fractured.

(37:37):
And he's like, that saved your life.
I was like, wow.
I look at that as something horrible that happened to me.
Yet 10 years later, it saved my life.
Wow.
Synchronicity.
Yeah.
I think that's cool.
That might be the wrong word for it, actually.
Just that whatever is happening, it's
never going to turn out the way you think it will.

(37:59):
It's always better.
And plus, that's just a good optimistic perspective.
That perspective makes life feel more joyful.
Yeah, it really does.
And honestly, I mean, don't get me wrong.
I'm a worrier.
I worry about stuff.
And it's something I work on.
But my instinct is always to look for the good, the happy.

(38:19):
What can we make out of this?
And I think that that is a very important thing
that everybody would have a better life if they could do.
Yes, I agree.
So yes, then 13, I was like, this is really boring.
I don't want to be here anymore.
I need to leave.

(38:39):
And that's when I saw you and then didn't see you again
till I was 17.
So like another several years.
Four.
Yeah.
We kind of followed each other in four year segments
for a little while there.
Yeah.
You were with mom for four years, then you went.
So then I went to dad's.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, that's true.
But I didn't fit in anywhere.

(39:01):
I didn't have any social skills.
I wanted to be like everybody else,
but dad wasn't there yet.
Dad was still very religious.
And you need to wear skirts.
And you need to separate from the world.
And he was married already and had little kids by then.
I just didn't feel like I fit in anywhere.
And I remember really making an effort

(39:22):
to try to fit in somewhere and make a life for myself.
And I remember there was a girls softball team in Bandon.
And I sat and watched them and then talked to them
and made friends.
And I wanted to join the softball team.
And I asked dad.
And he's like, no, he wasn't ready for me to wear pants.

(39:42):
And I was just like, well, shit, now what?
And the neighbor girl was like, I don't know how old she was,
14.
Maybe she was drinking.
And dad saw me start to hang out with her.
And he was like, you're so disrespectful to me.
I was.
I was a little shit.
We'll just admit it.

(40:02):
And he sent me to Arizona to grandma and grandpa.
And I stayed there for the summer.
And I just didn't know what I was doing.
There was nothing for me anywhere.
This was the summer after you and I traded places.
And then Angie Dixon, who I felt sorry for when
she was puking years before, she called me

(40:25):
because she had left too.
And she was like, Mariah, we're in the Amish community
in Tennessee.
You need to come visit.
And I was like, well, there's something to do.
So I went.
And I felt like I could build something.
And it was weird enough that I didn't feel like, oh, I

(40:46):
don't fit in.
This is too strange for me.
They were actually quite normal compared to my life.
And so after a couple of weeks, I called dad and said,
no, I'm not coming back.
And I'm like, is that OK?
Because you have to ask permission since you're a minor.
And he's like, yeah, that's fine.
So I lived there till I was 20.

(41:08):
How do you feel about dad allowing
you to do something like that when you're, what, 13, 14, 15,
14?
Well, I personally think that you
should support your kids and the adventures
that they want to have, especially at that age
because you're becoming who you are.
And I know that that was extremely important for me

(41:30):
to adjust to society.
So I think I would have done the same thing.
How do you feel towards him that he made that decision about you
at that age?
I don't have any negative feelings about that.
How do you feel?
What is the first feeling that comes to mind
when you think about that he did that?
Because I mean, I imagine being a dad.

(41:52):
He didn't have time for me.
I think dad wanted to, but he was busy.
And he had little kids.
I don't think that I felt ever in that time
that there was a space for me.
How do you feel now toward the man that made that decision?

(42:13):
That particular decision?
Or all of the decisions?
No, I'm saying that he would allow you to go to mom,
to go to the Amish, that he just facilitates it,
that he doesn't keep you at home while you're a minor,
you know, that type of thing.
I think I feel grateful for that.

(42:35):
I think that that is an amazing thing that he gave me.
Well, I think both mom and dad, always,
every decision they made, it was because they loved me
and they were doing the best that they could.
But sometimes it was kind of a flop.
You're saying that every decision they made in regards

(42:58):
to you, they made primarily because they loved you
and were doing the best they could for you.
With where they were in their life
and the convictions and knowledge that they had, yes.
OK.
Whether it came out that way all the time, not necessarily.
But I have 100% trust that that is where their hearts were.

(43:23):
Yes.
Which is why I love them so much.
But I'm also angry because they did flop a lot.
Yeah.
And I think that's fair.
You know, I'm sure Jacob will have the same with me.
Do you feel like they are aware?
Mom is.
I don't know that dad is.
Because dad is like me in that when I do something

(43:50):
and I hurt someone I love, I'm like, what?
My intentions were so pure and so sweet and so supportive.
How could I?
Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
How could you?
But I say sorry dad doesn't.
And so the way I see dad, the way I think I understand dad,

(44:12):
he knows where his heart was.
And his heart was good.
So why would he apologize about that?
Which I get.
I'm the same way.
I just have learned to be way more empathetic
and try to put myself in someone else's shoes.
So it's interesting to me because my question was,
do you think that he's aware?
And you say.

(44:33):
It's not a thing to him.
I don't.
Yeah.
And to you is like, well, he hasn't apologized.
Do you feel like because he hasn't apologized,
that's why you think he's not aware?
Or are those actually separate things?
Dad knows everything that happened in my life.
But the fact that he hasn't taken, hey, Mari,

(44:57):
I'm sorry about this or that, or I'm sorry if I, you know.
And not that I need it or anything,
but the fact that he hasn't done that
means that he looks at life differently than I do.
He looks at life, well, you make the best of what you have,
where you have it, you make the best decision that you can,
and you don't worry about it.

(45:18):
And that's fine.
I mean, I'm kind of the same way.
But I think I've learned to really care so much about how
someone else is doing, which is sometimes it's too much.
And then I care too much.
And then it hinders my responses.
So maybe if there's a balance between me and Dad,

(45:39):
that would be a perfect human.
Rather than any sort of an apology,
I wonder if the thing that would feel satisfying
or the thing that feels lacking is,
do you feel like he understands how hard it was for you?
No.
OK.
Because he was an adult.
And it's a lot easier as an adult to navigate all of that.

(46:01):
As a kid, you're like, you don't understand half of it.
And you don't understand why you're getting spanked,
where you can't even walk anymore because of something.
You know what?
Dad did apologize for that.
So I'll give him that one.
He also apologized for another spanking that he gave me.
So he has twice.
But I think the whole thing with giving us

(46:22):
the decision of, do you want to come with me?
Or do you want to stay with us?
That was just he had to get us out of there.
And that was the best he could do.
Why would he apologize about that?
And so our hurt about that, or I shouldn't say ours
because I don't know if you are.
But my hurt about that and my like, wow,
that was really horrible to go through as a nine-year-old.

(46:47):
That has nothing to do with him.
He was doing what probably every parent would do.
Yes.
So the best he could with what he had.
So when I talk about apology, that's
the little kid in me being like, why didn't you say sorry?
You just want him to
Acknowledge that it hurt and kind of fucked me up.

(47:08):
Yeah.
But it only fucked me up to the point
that I've now taken responsibility.
And I've been like, OK, well, this clearly is a problem.
So now what am I going to do about it?
Because I don't believe that you should live your life being
messed up from your parents' decisions, if at all possible.
That was kind of weird and judgy to say.

(47:29):
But that's how I treat myself.
Yeah, it's a difference between heaven and hell,
if you ask me.
But it's different between having a life full of pain
and having a life full of joy.
Right.
Just forgiving.
No, that doesn't mean it doesn't like flicker every now and then.
You're like, ow, that really hurt.
Well, and to what you were saying earlier,
that you can't speak for all of us getting hurt.

(47:50):
Exactly.
All of us were hurt.
That's just a fact.
But that's part of being human.
What is different is each of our journey through that pain.
Was different.
Was and is and will be.
But I just love how, as we've gotten into our 30s and 40s,

(48:12):
which 20s too, maybe some to a point.
But I just love how now we are a family.
Now we're just like, oh, yeah, I'm going to my brothers.
And I think some people don't understand.
Why are you one of the most important people in my life?
Everything in my life, I take into account my family.

(48:32):
And it's because I didn't have that as a kid.
So I'm very protective of it now.
It's almost like we're finding our family for the first time.
I mean, for the last 20 years or so.
Very slow process.
Yes.
And honestly finding myself too.
I don't feel like I fully started to really know myself

(48:53):
until I was 38.
Yes.
I'm horrible with math, but that's not that long.
I'm 45.
Well, you got me beat.
I really started to become aware of myself within the past five
years max.
I got to say, you've done a lot to help me with that.
And it's not intentional.
It's just watching you go through stuff and things you say.
I'm like, I take it home.

(49:14):
And I think about it for like three months.
I have to think about something you say.
And then I'm like, oh, you can tell someone something
until you're blue in the face.
But I think the trick to growing is actually
holding onto that nugget and just marinating on it
for like a long time.
For me, that's how I work.
And store those little nuggets.
And then all of a sudden, one day, one of them

(49:36):
will just click into place.
And you're like, oh, that makes so much more sense.
Yes, it absolutely makes sense.
That's how learning happens.
Because the truth is, you can't actually
learn anything from me.
No.
But the words I speak.
I can take those nuggets.
The words help to put a language to something that,

(49:56):
a knowledge that comes to life inside you
as you get the language for it.
You feel an emotional knowledge that you didn't notice before.
But it was always there.
That is very true.
Yep.
That's why every time I'm reading a book,
I'm just like, language, yes.
More ideas that I can put language to.
So I joined the Amish and lived there for five years.

(50:23):
Cookeville, Tennessee.
Cookeville, Tennessee.
I learned everything.
Baking, cooking, sewing, farming.
I think I was a little used there, too, work-wise.
But I learned a lot.
And I also feel like I have a lot of pain with that.
Because when Elmo the Bishop died, they split, ran.

(50:46):
They all went back to where they came from.
The whole community fell apart.
And I was just like, excuse me.
You guys just spent five years telling me
that I need to just work really hard.
And even though this is tough, now you're just leaving?
So I feel like it was, again, a familiar pain of loss

(51:07):
and rejection.
Yeah.
Being left, are you talking about the people leaving?
And it's like, you can never rely on someone
to always be there.
But I have since learned that change is always a constant.
And I didn't understand that.
Yes.
And so to me, it was like, and of course, they
invited me along.
But I was like, no, that's not the point.

(51:28):
Yeah, to another community somewhere,
I don't know, in Indiana or something.
Yeah, that's not the point.
So I went to India then for six months.
What is it called?
Body of Christ Ministries.
Yeah.
Glorious Children's Home.
And I taught there for six months and had a lot of fun.

(51:49):
Very controlling, though, which is probably for my safety.
Controlling where you go and what you do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can't go out.
I mean, it's in Rameshwaram, like, steep south
India.
Something probably would have happened bad
if I had gone on my own at all.
I would have stayed longer because, again,
trying to find my place in the world

(52:09):
just didn't fit in anywhere.
Yeah.
Wait, you would have stayed longer?
In India.
But?
Well, I had a work visa, I think.
Oh, you wanted to stay longer, but?
But I had to go to Sri Lanka to get it renewed.
And it was a small town.
And I was working at a Christian school in a Hindu place.

(52:31):
Sure.
And so there was a lot of people wanting to send their kids
to that school.
I was there.
All the kids in my class, I don't think any of them
had ever spoken a word of English before.
It was such an out in the boonies place.
And I think knowing that there was someone from America there
made a lot of the Hindus want to send their kids
for an opportunity.

(52:51):
Sure.
And I can see why that would cause
some chaos in the community.
Sure.
That makes sense, actually.
So they wouldn't renew my visa.
I mean, plus it's a Christian school.
Exactly.
Hindu, Christian.
They can't be having this advantage over the Hindu school.
OK.
Who knows why?
I went back to Bandon.
And again, just didn't fit in anywhere.

(53:14):
But I had gotten engaged.
You sound excited about that.
I mean, again, it was just all trying to find my place.
But his family didn't want me, didn't like me.
And he was defying them, like saying, no, well, whatever.
I'm going to marry her anyway.
It didn't feel right.
But I moved out to Florida because that's

(53:36):
where he was living.
But I broke up with him.
And then, ladies and gentlemen, I joined society.
And how old were you?
21.
21.
Wow, all this happened really fast.
Yeah.
You just went through these convulsions
to try to find someplace to fit.
Interesting.
I would say for the first four years,

(53:59):
I worked really, really hard.
There was a job I wanted as a costume designer at the Holy
Land Experience.
Theme park.
Which they have shut down since then.
But I would show up every day.
That's how I would get a job.
I would apply.
And then I would just show up or call every day.
It would annoy them so bad.
But I always got the job.
You are a persistent one.

(54:20):
Actually, Dad taught me that.
He's like, Mariah, if you want a job, just bug them every day.
They'll give it to you.
So I would.
And anyway, so I did that.
And every weekend, I would party.
And I really fully joined society.
I was a 21-year-old.

(54:42):
I didn't do drugs or anything, but probably
because I was just too scared.
I ended up having sex when I was 23.
So I was still trying to do the whole, that's how I was raised.
Don't do that.
And I finally was like, this is ridiculous.
And then I made up for lost time.

(55:03):
How did the transition feel?
Looking back, did it feel like it happened organically?
Or do you feel like you got ahead of yourself?
The getting engaged at 21, that was getting ahead of myself.
Because I did not even know myself.
Actually, my husband now is the first one in my entire life
that I actually feel like I chose.
And it was as someone who knows myself.

(55:26):
Good job.
But no, I think my air quotes, wild time, was pretty normal.
I didn't know a lot of things about being careful.
And so I had to learn that.
And there was definitely some trips to the health department
to be like, can you test me?
Never got anything, but still.

(55:48):
It's kind of scary to learn that way.
Yes.
And too many people do.
Yeah.
Honestly, I feel like there was a higher power definitely
looking out for me in that time, because I was just
as innocent as could be.
Didn't know anything.
I actually had two really good girlfriends in that time.
They were roommates.

(56:09):
We still get together sometimes.
Not that often, because one lives in Florida,
one lives in Nashville, and I live in Oregon.
But the relationships that I've made throughout my life
in those times when I was able to touch society a little bit,
I've kept them.
So you're living in Florida.
Yeah.
OK, so now I feel like we can just

(56:29):
kind of start talking about these things as stages maybe.
OK.
So we've got the stage where you're just searching.
Then it sounds like there was a transition point.
Ladies and gentlemen.
I just think I learned enough about how to act
that I was able to live.
So let's just say, how long does it
feel like that stage of existence

(56:50):
lasted just for the whole time you were in Florida?
Or was there transition points within that?
No, it was pretty much the whole time I was in Florida.
OK, and you were working at a theme park, designing costumes,
partying.
They put me on stage one time, because they were like,
you need to be on stage.
And I was like, do not put me on stage.
And they're like, oh, come on.

(57:10):
You can memorize.
And I'm like, no, I can't.
And so they put me on stage.
And sure enough, they were like, we're never doing that again.
I'm like, I told you, my mind goes blank up there.
Was that a traumatic experience for you?
Very.
How many people were?
Probably a couple hundred.
But I had warned them.
I said, you guys, I get stage fright.

(57:32):
My mind goes blank.
And I will forget my lines.
And then I walked off and I said, I told you so.
Have you ever been on stage since then?
No, I hate talking in front of people.
I can talk one on one.
I can talk when I meet with people.
But even a first time homebuyers class, cold sweats.
And how many have you taught?

(57:53):
One.
And the only reason I could do it was
because it was kind of a round table.
So it was like, hey, you asked me a question.
But if I have to sit up there and say, oh, do, do, do, do,
no, thank you.
Mariah, have you ever heard of or gone to,
what is that speech club called?
Oh, no, thank you.
Ho, the phone.
The mastermind, or not mastermind, but.

(58:15):
Toastmasters.
No, thank you.
Toastmasters.
OK, OK, hold on.
I have heard of it.
And I have been invited.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
That's like my nightmare.
Hold on.
OK, you're terrified of public speaking.
Yes.
OK.
How do you feel about being terrified of public speaking?
Are you OK with being terrified of it?

(58:36):
As long as I'm not put in a position where I have to do it.
Do you wish that you could do it?
No.
Do you wish that you weren't afraid of it?
Not that necessarily you could be good at it or anything,
but that it wasn't this claustrophobic feeling
inside you of the cold sweats as soon
as you're in front of anybody.
Do you feel like your life would be bettered without that fear?

(58:56):
I understand the question.
But I feel people's energy.
And I have to connect with them.
And like, I'm way better with one on one or one family
at a time.
That is what's important to me.
So it doesn't bother me.
I don't waste any time thinking about, oh.
But then when someone teases me and is like, oh yeah,

(59:18):
we're going to call first, then yes, I will panic.
And I will literally like, I'll walk away.
So maybe there's two different things going on.
Because if there's one thing I've learned,
it's that people aren't all like me.
Everyone's unique.
So that could just be completely the natural way
that you are, is you just prefer to connect one on one.

(59:38):
I don't like being looked at.
But having a fear, a fear of something detracts from you.
Not that somebody would be like, OK,
we're going to get you on stage.
And you're like, I literally don't do that.
So good luck.
The being on stage part is fine.
Or in front of people.
I've walked on stage and received awards and stuff.
Talking about talking.
That's totally fine.

(59:58):
Talking, another story.
So someday, do yourself a giant favor
and go to a Toastmasters meeting.
Just do it.
I felt the same way.
And then I went.
And I was like, oh my goodness.
In my first class, I learned so much about just the basics

(01:00:22):
of communication and how you use words to communicate.
And they have so many fun little games.
And it's this roundtable thing where some people there
are amazing at it.
And some people suck at it.
And everybody doesn't care.
They're just there because they want to better themselves.
And it's set up in a way that makes you feel so comfortable.

(01:00:44):
And they're going to throw you into very uncomfortable
situations.
But you're in a group of people who
are choosing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations
because they don't want to be afraid anymore.
Not that you want to become a public speaker.
And if you feel more comfortable continuing as you are, please.
I mean, I don't feel like anyone should just
want to continue being afraid.

(01:01:04):
I think I might.
It's incredible.
And it doesn't cost any money.
The problem is it's kind of easy to get hooked.
Nice.
And if you're into that type of thing, then you can go.
And there's all kinds of competitions.
I do think my work would be easier for me
if I could present classes and stuff.
Because I have a wealth of knowledge

(01:01:25):
in my head on this business and the market
and how to help people.
But I'll talk to you all day long one on one.
But I won't do a class.
Perfect.
Well, would you go to Toastmasters with me?
I'll go to one.
I'll go to a meeting.
Like, I can look it up and find out when the meetings are.
Sure.
And then we'll just go.
It's like Wednesdays at 6 PM or something.

(01:01:47):
OK.
Yeah.
I mean, I know Jesse would be happy if I did that because he
thinks I should get out there.
Well, I have no idea what the future holds.
So we'll see.
But it's on.
All right.
OK.
Wow.
This is the sidetrack night.
So Florida just primarily felt like one stage for you.

(01:02:09):
Yeah.
Making some friends.
Making friends.
Having some fun.
You know, I had my routines.
Visiting Disney.
And I'd go to Universal Studios every January
and do all the rides.
I'd go to City Walk on the weekends.
And honestly, I would go myself a lot
and just take myself to the movies.
Go out with friends sometimes.
Yeah, it was a good time of just being.

(01:02:34):
And you were doing what you wanted to do.
Yeah.
Looking back, I don't think that I felt balanced.
I didn't know myself.
I was just trying all sorts of different things.
I was trying all sorts of different relationships
and different explorations and, you know, just.
Finding yourself.
Yeah.

(01:02:55):
And then what?
And then I met my first husband.
One of my friends was dating someone
that worked at the restaurant that he managed.
And we went to eat or something.
And yeah, we met.
And I think I was like 26 at the time.
And we started dating.
He was seven years older than me.
Italian.
And we had a lot of fun.

(01:03:18):
But looking back, I realize it was just a lot about him.
Because I was still trying to figure myself out,
I just sort of like was about him.
He had a daughter up in Baltimore.
She was nine.
And after we were dating, we were living together.
He wanted to move up there.

(01:03:38):
And I was like, well, I guess I'll go up there.
So, you know, just kind of go with the flow.
So I moved to Baltimore.
And I hate Baltimore so much.
Don't like it at all.
Why not?
What do you dislike about Baltimore?
It was once a beautiful city.
But it is everywhere I went and looked,

(01:04:00):
it just felt like it was dying.
It just like depressed me really bad.
Again, that might be an energy thing, but I didn't like it.
Do you think it had anything to do with your relationship?
The situation you're in?
Or was it just purely about the city?
No, I don't think I was aware enough
to know that that was not a good relationship yet.
I think that it was just, I need living things.

(01:04:23):
Like whether it's the ocean or the trees or the mountains,
I need that to feel not depressed.
Even the rain makes me feel happy.
Amen.
And there just wasn't that.
Although I did have an adventure
when there was a really, really intense snowstorm there.

(01:04:46):
It snowed four feet in one night.
And I thought the world was ending
because I heard so much thunder.
And I was like, why is it thundering?
And then I looked it up when the internet came back on
and there's actually something called thunder snow.
There are some times when there's a snowstorm,
it will thunder.

(01:05:08):
Didn't know that, thought the world was ending
because the lights were all out.
There was no heat, no electricity, nothing.
And there was loud thunder in the sky.
First I've heard of that.
Yeah.
So the thunder snow is a thing.
How long did you stay in Baltimore?
Well, I was there for, I would say four years.

(01:05:30):
We lived together for about a year.
And I got a job as a nanny for the head OBGYN
at Johns Hopkins, her grandson.
And she paid me like 500 bucks a week.
And I took care of her grandson.
At that time, like 26, 27,
hadn't seen dad or any of them since I was 21.

(01:05:54):
So you were pretty disconnected from the whole family.
I didn't talk to anybody.
Ooh.
I mean, I talked to you and Bonnie a little bit,
but that's it.
And I remember thinking,
I really wanna go home and like, you know, see people.
And I remember talking to dad about it.
And he's like, well, you can't because you're not married
and you're living with your, what does he call them?

(01:06:14):
Paramore.
Yes, paramore.
And so I was like, well, you know,
I get something in my head, I wanna do it.
I wanted to go home.
So I'm like, let's get married.
And so we went to the courthouse and got married
because it wasn't like a serious thing to me.
And I didn't, I don't think I was at a place in my life
where I realized, oh, this is actually something

(01:06:34):
really serious that you do.
I mean, if you think about it, the kind of life I had,
why would it be serious?
You know, I just, I didn't know myself well enough.
And so then we got married and we were,
I don't think he took it that seriously either though,
because you know, it was big joke.
It was kind of a joke.
And then we went to visit and you guys met him.

(01:06:58):
What do you mean when you say because of the life
that we had?
I had never seen marriage.
I had never been taught about what marriage was.
And so for me, I just, it was just a piece of paper
that you did.
I didn't understand that it was like actually
like this whole partnership.

(01:07:18):
It was an abstract concept.
Yes.
Interesting.
Which I think that I just realized that right now, sorry.
Like I never verbalized that.
Because that's true that you, I mean, the Jim Arbish group,
there was almost no one married
and then you didn't stay home for very long.
Dad and Theresa got married,
but you didn't experience much of that.

(01:07:39):
You experienced marriage in the Amish community.
But I don't think I ever like understood it
or talked about it.
How the world was, families were families.
And that I think that's what I was trying to do.
Like with both of my marriages, I was like,
okay, this is how it's supposed to be.
Why is it not working?

(01:08:02):
But yeah, thankfully the one now is wonderful.
I was married to him for only a year.
And then I was like, that is not a good thing.
It was not good.
The relationship wasn't good.
Us together weren't good.
Okay.
He...
You guys had complimentary wounds?

(01:08:22):
Probably, that's a good way to put it.
Yeah, nice.
And so I just got divorced.
I still talk to his daughter.
I was trying to tell her about my husband now.
And I felt kind of weird saying,
I feel like I finally found my person.
And I was like, maybe that's kind of mean to say.

(01:08:44):
How old is she?
Oh, she's like 20, 29.
Probably not totally innocent anymore.
Oh no, she's married now.
Trying to understand how the world works a little bit.
I mean, if she cares about you,
she cares about how you feel.
She does, she does very much care.
And she gets it, I'm sure.
So when I divorced him, I moved in with the head OBGYN

(01:09:06):
and I was just her live in nanny.
And she was hosting baseball players
from the Dominican Republic.
And I started dating one of them.
And I was again, not self-aware enough
to realize red flags, like controlling mannerisms.

(01:09:27):
I texted you, why did you not text me back right away?
Like that sort of thing.
Like to me, that wasn't just, that was,
I didn't understand that at that point.
I was not emotionally mature enough to realize,
oh, this is not a good thing.
Did you feel like maybe it was your responsibility
to look out for some, for his feelings?
Oh my gosh, yes.

(01:09:49):
Didn't even occur to you that maybe his feelings
don't have anything to do with you.
No. Yeah.
And again, that concept never even crossed my mind
until I was 38 years old.
Yeah.
And at this point I was 30.
So you would say you had a pretty co-dependent relationship.
Oh yeah.
And I had always wanted to have a kid,

(01:10:12):
but I didn't wanna, like, I wasn't really like,
oh, I wanna be a mom.
You know, I've never been like that.
And he said he wanted to have a kid.
And I said, okay, fine, but I don't want my life to change.
So you're gonna have to take care of it.
Like literally that's what I said.
Wow.
Of course, when you have a kid after that,
that's not at all what you do.

(01:10:34):
Everything changes. You're like,
oh my gosh, my baby.
You know?
But I told him when he said he wanted to have a kid,
I said, fine, we can do that.
And I figured, you know, I'm 30 already.
I better crank one out to see what it looks like at least
before I get too old.
Oh man.
What a motivation to have a kid.
I mean, I figured I'd have a pretty cute one.

(01:10:57):
Anyway, I told him, I said, I'm going to Oregon.
You can come with me if you want,
but I really don't care if you don't.
And he's like, okay, I'll go.
So we came out here when Jacob was like five months old
and I got another nanny job.
And actually those people that hired me 13 years ago

(01:11:18):
are my clients today.
So that was a good relationship.
I guess I do kind of keep my relationships.
I didn't realize that.
Sounds like it.
Oh, and then dad was saying,
Mariah, you need to get married
because you know, my son was one by this time.
And he's like,
you're going to be condemning him to hell,
you know, teaching him like he's not going to be protected.

(01:11:39):
And it was a whole thing.
And I felt really like, I've always wanted to like,
oh, I think I want to please dad all the time.
You thought you had to do what was expected of you?
Yeah.
That's called codependency.
Okay, so codependent.
Great.
And I remember saying, telling dad,
dad, I want to break up with him, not marry him.
And he said, well, you have a kid.

(01:12:02):
So I married him.
So you're saying,
I hear you saying that you felt pressure.
Yes.
Do you feel like dad would remember that the same way?
No, not at all.
Crazy how that works.
That is so interesting to me,
how differently we can remember the same instance.
Well, because we decide things
based off of what's going on in our own head.

(01:12:22):
Yes.
And I think I've never had like, approval,
and I always wanted it.
Yeah.
And I think I still do,
but it's only recently that I've actually felt
strong enough or mature enough to be like, whatever.
But I think I still struggle with that.
But after that marriage ended in 2018,

(01:12:45):
I definitely went on a journey of
really getting to know myself.
And there was some failed relationships in that,
just trying to,
I think the best way to say it is,
my relationships always made me feel
like I was somebody's battery.
Like I was always supporting,
and I was always encouraging.
I was always helping them become something better.

(01:13:06):
And then it would leave me exhausted.
And then I would break up with them.
And then I just took a couple of years
to not be with anyone and really take those nuggets
and just think and think and think and think and think.
And I think that's when I finally realized,
I need somebody who needs me, but doesn't need me.

(01:13:30):
Somebody who wants you, but doesn't need you.
I like the sound of that.
Yeah, and then all of a sudden.
That sounds like freedom.
All of a sudden I found him, or he found me rather.
I was quite hesitant.
I actually told him no for four or five months.
Are you whispering so that?
He doesn't hear it.

(01:13:51):
I have a feeling he knows.
Yeah, he does know.
Jesse is one of the most pragmatic guys I've ever met.
He was like, okay.
Yeah, so we met in January.
Well, I mean, in the business that we're in,
we had exchanged emails and stuff about work back in 2017,
but I had never met him.
International smuggling, right?

(01:14:13):
Real estate, contracting, that sort of stuff.
How do you smuggle real estate?
I had never, he wasn't on my radar.
I didn't know anything about him other than,
hey, can you get me a bid for this?
Because he was a GC.
Yeah, but then in January,
I needed, there was a chimney that was falling over
and he's the guy for that.

(01:14:34):
So I got the bid and we were sending emails and stuff back.
And I guess somehow, well, he got divorced
and then I was on his radar.
Ooh.
And so he decided he was gonna meet me.
So we met in January and he says that in February,
he bought my wedding ring.
Wow.
Mm-hmm, which we didn't even start dating

(01:14:56):
until like the end of April.
So, interesting.
Someone's determined.
I have a man who knows what he wants.
I appreciate that.
And he was the first person that I really sat down
and did a life stages conversation with.
He has a lot more to share.
Oh, well, anytime.
Well, anyway, that's a conversation with him.

(01:15:17):
But that's a whole growth thing for him too,
of just learning how to share.
I am pretty sure that we'll end up recording again.
But he kind of jump started my emotions around my process.
Nice.
Like no one wants to sit down with me.
Not that anyone's saying it,
but I also don't know how to ask.
And I don't know like, I wanna have these conversations.

(01:15:38):
And then he's just like,
I'll have a conversation with you.
Yeah, sure, whatever.
I got nothing to hide.
Talk about whatever.
Let's sit down and talk.
I just really appreciate that.
There's been a couple of people that have done that for me.
It's really helpful to have people to just boost you forward.
Yeah.
What's that look like?
Yeah, I wasn't quite like that.
Sorry.
So you just, well, I'm really glad I don't live

(01:15:58):
in a world full of people that are all the same.
Yeah, that would be boring.
So right now the realtor
and the general contractor got married.
You guys taking over the town?
Do you have plans?
We work a lot right now.
We're both starting over kind of.
And that takes a lot of work.

(01:16:19):
But the goal is once that takes off
and can sort of sustain itself,
I would really like to go back to school.
And I feel like I have a lot to offer people that are hurting.
And I think that that is some of my failed relationships.
I was taking that and finding people that were hurting

(01:16:40):
and fixing them, but you don't do that in a relationship.
You do that as a friend or as just somebody that you know.
What do you mean by fixing them?
Offering them the support and the space
and the just listening to them talk about like something
that's painful or something that scares them or something.

(01:17:04):
And then sometimes just offering
just a slightly different viewpoint.
And it's just amazing what someone will do with that.
Oh, offering the language.
Okay, yeah, there.
And so you want to offer the space.
The little nuggets.
You wanna offer space and support
for people to fix themselves.
Yes, that is exactly what I wanna do.

(01:17:27):
But you feel like that's not really appropriate
in a marriage.
I'm totally messing with you.
No, but I think that when I was trying to figure out
what I wanted in a relationship,
I was instead finding someone
that was just almost not functioning
and offering that and getting burned out.

(01:17:49):
But that's because it was always,
I was giving and giving and giving
and I wasn't getting back.
Do you feel like there's any element
that you were actually trying to fix people?
Oh, absolutely.
But I wasn't aware of it. I know that was my experience.
I wasn't aware.
I didn't realize you're attracted to these people
because you're fixing them.
Yeah.
I was just like, oh, they need me.

(01:18:12):
They need some love.
They need some help.
It's the same thing as when I was a kid
and someone was hurting.
It's that same attraction.
But then I matured a little bit in my head
and I realized that's not necessarily healthy.
Now I've separated a little bit from my own personal life.
You've started helping yourself.

(01:18:33):
Yes.
I took some time for myself.
Yeah.
You definitely have been growing.
Yes, it took two.
Well, I mean, it's been a lot of years,
but two years of just being by myself.
And when I say by myself,
I mean not in a serious relationship.
Yeah.
Of space and distance to find that.
So I feel like we're really into the present right now.

(01:18:57):
I wanna ask you a question about the past.
Okay.
It's a super awkward question.
Okay.
When you were telling your story
about getting cold sores when you were six,
made me think of how our oldest sister
believes that she remembers sexual abuse
in the gym, garbage group.
I don't know if it was all of us or some of us.

(01:19:19):
What I'm wondering is,
is there any chance that that is,
like that that's what that came from?
That there was something that happened
that you've blocked out?
Or how do you feel about that?
I've thought about it.
What do you think?
I think that if there was a memory that was blocked out,
there would be some sort of a feeling with that.

(01:19:41):
And I don't have that.
But I mean, I have thought about it.
I've wondered.
How does the thought of like some sort of a
memory retrieval like hypnosis,
like there's people that study this stuff
and their practices is to through like a hypnosis
or a meditative, whatever you wanna call it,
but through hypnosis to go back
and find some of the old memories.

(01:20:03):
Would you be afraid of what you would find?
I don't think I don't feel like I would be.
No. Okay.
That being said, I do think part of why our memories
or I think all of our memories are kind of spotty.
Dude, mine is exactly like yours.
And then I think it's trained our brain to be forgetful,
even in the present, which is frustrating to me.
And I try to practice like,

(01:20:26):
but I think that our brains are just like anything about us
that it protects us.
But I don't necessarily think it's
because of something traumatic.
I think that the forgetfulness for me
comes from just the constant moving.
I mean, we moved every two months.

(01:20:47):
The constant moving.
I didn't even know money existed until I was like nine.
The constant like hiding,
we couldn't go out during school hours.
The constant loneliness, the constant trauma
of being told to put your face down and not laugh.
Like that's what it feels like it comes from for me.

(01:21:09):
And every single connection you ever make leaves
or you leave them every time.
And that has a energy feeling with it.
But I'm not saying there wasn't sexual things
for other people,
but I don't feel like it was like that with me.

(01:21:32):
I'm guessing one of the sisters had a cold sore
and I kissed her or something.
I had a pretty loud mouth.
I'm pretty sure nobody would have been able
to do something without me blabbing to people.
That's a good point.
I'm pretty sure mom and dad would have known.

(01:21:52):
I'm actively searching for,
like I want to explore whatever people offer.
If I find someone that offers
some sort of a memory recall type thing,
like I trust my process, my internal process so deeply now.
Like I have come to know myself so deeply that,
yeah, I make up memories all the time

(01:22:14):
and I laugh at myself.
I just have fun with it.
It doesn't matter to me.
Even the things that used to terrify me,
it's just funny now because I understand how I work.
So I want to explore to see what I find.
And if it's nothing or if I don't know what it is,
that won't matter, but I am so curious.
So the memories that I do have, I know are real,

(01:22:35):
but I also know that it was from a perspective of a child.
So obviously it's not the full picture.
Yes.
That I am curious about.
I'm curious about like these memories that I have,
what actually happened?
Unfortunately, there is no retrieval system
for what actually happened.
Yeah.

(01:22:55):
I'd like to know more of.
I don't think that it would damage me or hurt me
to find out if something was lost,
even if it was horrible, because I am who I am.
And that's not going to change that.
Yep.
It'll be like, wow, that was another layer
of something that happened to me.
But I think that, and you taught me this,

(01:23:17):
when you get a cut, your body naturally,
if you give it light and air and cleanliness,
your body naturally heals.
Same with your emotions.
And that was so fundamental for me,
or foundational, I say, for me when you told me that.
I merited on that for a year and it just stuck with me.

(01:23:38):
I use it all the time with people.
But with your emotions, if you're damaged or hurt
or someone's abused you,
if you don't like make that your identity,
but you open it up and you're like,
okay, this happened to me,
your emotions and your body and your mentality
will naturally heal itself.

(01:23:59):
Yes.
And I think that the reason we are so level emotionally
is because we have allowed ourselves
all throughout our life to, okay, that hurt,
and instead of just hiding it.
I appreciate your inclusion of me

(01:24:20):
in this emotional levelness situation.
But I have become emotionally level in the past year, less.
Okay, I would agree.
Like six months.
I would agree.
I'm the same, like more and more and more, but.
I was a mess for most of my life.

(01:24:41):
But what I think- I don't know that I was though.
But Mariah, what I think of that I did do my whole life
is I never gave up.
I never gave up.
I always wanted to do the right thing.
I always did the best I could.
I was always like, I want the truth.
I wanna understand even when I didn't.
And when I was afraid to look
and dysfunctional in every way, I just never gave up.

(01:25:02):
You say truth, that was not my thought.
I never gave up.
I always wanted to live.
I always wanted life.
So for me, it wasn't truth.
I could hear less.
I could explain on truth, that's fine.
But-
I mean, I kinda-
Well, because truth is relative.
Is it?
Yeah.
Relative to what?
Whoever's seeing something.

(01:25:24):
Like, okay, example, and this is a very simple one.
I sit down with buyers and I'm like,
okay, what are you guys looking for?
Okay, now what about like, this is your price range.
So how much are you willing to do some work on the house?
And the, oh yeah, cosmetic repairs.
What cosmetic repairs, which is their truth,

(01:25:46):
can mean to one buyer and versus another
is vastly different.
Neither of them are lying, but it's relative.
Perspective is certainly relative.
Yeah, but it's also truth.
That's their truth.
Ah, their truth, yes.
That is another way to say perspective.
The concept of truth being relative

(01:26:07):
is such a hot button topic in our family circle.
I'm trying to find different language.
Because the thing that you're trying to say
is not that truth is actually relative,
but my perception of the truth
and your perception of the truth are equally valid.
And different.
And different.

(01:26:28):
One thing can be true and something different can be true
and seem like they're about the same thing,
seem like they contradict each other
without actually contradicting.
Well, and I think it also has to do with
your perception of the world.
This was actually something that Jesse and I
have had to talk about a lot.
He's very, this is what you said,
so this is what you meant.
And I'm very, this was the thought

(01:26:51):
and this was where my heart was.
So that's not what I meant.
His truth, my truth.
And it's been very interesting learning each other
and understanding that,
no, I'm not saying you're crazy.
And no, I'm not, you know.
Oh my goodness.
Because humans are made out of emotions.

(01:27:13):
Like all we are inside there is emotion.
And so you have to translate that emotion
into conscious thought.
Then you have to translate that conscious thought
into physical words, which have to be transmitted
to the hearing of the other person
who translates them into conscious thought,
which then translates down into emotions.
And by that time.

(01:27:34):
It's like playing telephone.
And that's what every, like that's as good
as communication can get is.
You can kind of get the idea sometimes if you're lucky.
That's why I don't know if you're the same,
but I talk around things.
I'm constantly talking around things
because any given word can mean anything.
So if I say it in five different ways in.

(01:27:56):
One of them will click.
It's just that you start to get the idea,
the emotion I'm actually trying to convey.
And that's why I'm starting to find language
so that I can actually speak coherently
so that people can actually understand sort of what I'm
trying to express as I read books
and listen to podcasts and talk to people.
I think that's why I come to you so much.

(01:28:16):
Because for me, the older I get, the easier it is for me
to just not share.
Yes.
To not talk.
It gets easier.
Because I don't know how to make what I feel inside heard.
Yes.
Because it's wonderful.
It's great stuff, but language does fail.

(01:28:41):
As soon as you start using it.
That's why this talk was really hard for me.
I mean, it's been a long time that we've been talking
about doing this because words don't.
Words are tough.
Well, they just don't, they don't cover enough.
They're collections of sounds.
They don't actually mean anything in and of themselves.

(01:29:01):
Yeah.
It's hard to paint a picture of the emotion
and the story behind where they're coming from.
They're inadequate, I think is the word.
Yes.
My typical experience in any conversation like this
is when I'm in this conversation,
I'm just slowing with the conversation
and experiencing whatever it is.
All the different emotions and feelings
and just going with it.

(01:29:22):
Afterwards, I don't remember what we talked about
or what we said. Me either.
And then as I'm editing it, I listen to it probably
all the way through several times.
By the time I'm done editing it,
that's just what ends up happening.
I'm slow, but I still am just hearing specific pieces
and words and doing things, whatever I'm looking for.
So I never actually hear what happens.
Then I release them on Sunday.

(01:29:44):
And then Monday morning when I'm driving to work,
I plug in my earbuds and I turn on my adaptive cruise control
so that I can have as much of my focus turned off
as possible.
And so as soon as I turn my focus off,
now I have this stream of words that are flowing
through my consciousness and my emotions
are just doing this dance.

(01:30:06):
Like it's just creating this whole world.
What it feels like to me is like an oil painting.
Just like the vibrant colors and brush strokes.
Oh, interesting.
That's a very good picture.
I like that.
That's why I call it emotion art,
because everything is art and everything is emotion.
It's just great.
And everything is relative.
And it's like the cat walking past the fence.

(01:30:26):
There's a little slit in the fence
and you can see the cat's head.
And then later you can see the cat's tail
and you can see different parts of the cat.
But you would never know unless the crack is wider.
It's like, oh, it's just one thing.
Yeah, this person sees a head and this person sees a tail.
That's what I think of.
And I think truth is relative.
We're all looking at the same thing.

(01:30:47):
It's just that we see different perspectives of it.
What's that saying about the blind men and the elephant?
Same thing, different story.
Yeah, we're like five blind guys come across an elephant
and they all just happen upon a different part of it.
So they're trying to describe it to each other.
Elephants look like, yeah.
Yeah, and then someone comes along and they're just like,

(01:31:09):
help us figure out this dispute
because we are gonna kill each other.
And he's like, you guys are idiots.
But they were blind.
So that's probably not a sensitive story.
Oh, oops.
Although.
It's an analogy.
It's an analogy for all of us.
We're all blind.
That's the point of it is that we're all blind.
So you're a realtor.

(01:31:31):
You're a damn good one too.
From everything I hear, everybody that talks about you.
And by the way, one of those people is me
because you have, I broke all my rules.
I know you did.
You were so against using family.
I wasn't gonna do it.
I was like, no, I'm not gonna ruin relationships
because you can't do that kind of stuff with family

(01:31:53):
or it's just always a problem.
Like you can't loan money and you can't go into business.
You can't do all of this stuff.
And then you were like, okay, well, just,
oh, there is this one place though.
You just freaking did it anyway.
And then I was like, oh, this fits me.
Someone who's just gonna do their thing
and we'll see what happens.

(01:32:13):
But I think that's how I do it with all of my people.
Like, and I even tell them when I first meet them,
I want to meet you in person
so that you can see if you work with me
and I can see if I work with you.
Right, I feel like you put more work
into our home transition process than we did.

(01:32:34):
Well, of course.
It's my job to make my clients feel as little,
they will always feel stress,
but as little stress as possible
and still reach their goals in the timelines
they want, not mine.
You first saw every problem before it came up.
You were like warning me way ahead of time

(01:32:57):
so that when it came, then it was just so easy.
You'd be like, well, I did tell you that
and now here's your option.
It's like, you're ready for everything.
You always had an answer at every juncture.
Well, I have been doing this 10 years.
Yeah, but I've worked with other realtors
who've been doing it for a long time.
I've never experienced anything like what you bring.

(01:33:17):
That is definitely a mark of a good, no, I-
Did you give me special treatment?
No.
You didn't have any favorite people?
I know, I know you didn't.
I've seen how you work with other people.
I, not to harp on the cold sores,
but I hadn't had one in like nine years.

(01:33:38):
And then I got one when I was working with you guys
cause it was so stressful.
Yeah, well you took on a hell of a project.
You got us into a place we couldn't afford
because it needed a lot of work
and you helped to get that work done.
I mean, oh my goodness.
Anyway, I've never wrote you a review.
How dare I?
Well, you'll have to.

(01:33:58):
I'm gonna have to do that.
I keep saying I'm gonna do it.
I'll send you a link.
How, I mean, how long do you see yourself continuing
to be like in fully in real estate?
I don't see myself getting out of it,
but I'm definitely diversifying.
Like I'm starting to learn how to do handyman stuff.
I am going to get my property management license.

(01:34:18):
Like it's all part of real estate.
And those are all the pain points you run into.
So you're like, I'm just gonna do it myself.
And when I don't have to work so hard,
like right now I have to.
I mean, I've been a single mom for a long time,
not anymore, which is really nice.

(01:34:39):
I can see the joy in you.
But again, we're both starting over.
So that's gonna take some time.
But when I don't have to, have to always be on working,
I definitely wanna pursue that unfinished dream
of being a therapist.
I hope you do.
Me too.
You guys are both starting over in a lot of ways.
And I think that both of you have an incredible amount

(01:34:59):
off the world.
Both of you have a powerful healing story
that's just starting.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that it's really jumped
getting to know each other.
You guys have catalyzed each other.
Yes.
I think that we support each other
without meaning to in all the good ways.

(01:35:21):
I think you're done with masks.
You guys are ready to just be honest, just be yourselves.
Well, very much so.
It's a little painful sometimes
when we're so honest with each other.
Yes.
That's one nice thing about doing the handyman stuff
with him in the afternoons, we're together all the time.
So there's not a loss of connection.

(01:35:41):
And I really like that.
And one of my 500 very favorite sayings is,
speak truth and watch what happens.
And that feels like a powerful optimistic saying to me
because what happens is never what I think it will be.
And it is always better than anything I could have dreamed
up, speak truth and watch what happens every time.

(01:36:03):
Along those lines, I think one of my favorite things
about Jesse is that he doesn't apologize.
He's not like, if I'm like, well, this is how I meant that.
And this is what you, that was really mean.
He's not like, oh, I'm sorry.
Like he doesn't say, I'm sorry.
He's just, we talk about it,

(01:36:27):
but it's a huge relief to me that the words,
like I say, I'm sorry, because I want him to know,
well, I really didn't mean that to come out that way.
But I'm so used to in past relationships,
the minute I was upset, they would just be like,
oh, let's make it better.
Yes.
But Jesse doesn't do that.
And it is one of my favorite things about him.

(01:36:49):
That's how I learned I'm sorry as well.
I'm sorry that I'm the cause of your pain.
Yeah.
As if that's gonna fix it.
Yeah.
And now I'm trying to find different language
because I've learned, I'm learning to say I'm sorry.
But to actually say it without the words.
The problem is that, yeah, I have no use for the words
because every time I hear- The words I'm sorry are ugly.

(01:37:10):
Every time I hear like one of the boy's friends is over
and they don't know me.
And so I come out and I'm just like,
hey, come down here.
I wanna have a conversation with you.
Cause I treat kids like adults.
I'm just like, let's talk.
And would they all act like kids?
Like they don't know what's happening.
And I'm just like, cut the crap.
You know that I know, I know that you know.
So let's just have a real conversation.

(01:37:31):
Let's just dispense with all of the pretenses
and the excuses and all the crap.
I just wanna know what were you thinking?
Like, how did you actually feel?
Why is this happening?
I just wanna have a conversation
and you're not in trouble at all.
That's okay. We can fix windows.
Like it just doesn't matter.
Like I don't care about stuff.
I care about understanding what happened in there

(01:37:53):
and maybe who knows what we'll find.
And, but oftentimes kids that come over are like,
oh, I'm sorry.
I usually I'll say something like,
oh, I don't see you as sorry at all.
I think you're an awesome human.
But you know, just give you that different.
Cause what does sorry mean?
I'm sorry doesn't mean anything.
It doesn't.
It's a filler word that says

(01:38:14):
I'm responsible for your feelings.
Well, and not only that though,
in my failed relationships,
I would stick up for myself until I heard and I'm sorry.
And then I would let it go.
When I was having my alone time,
I realized that is, that's horrible.
Cause anyone can say, I'm sorry at any time for any reason.

(01:38:36):
But it's like, when I say you hurt my feelings,
when I say I'm hurting, when I'm showing that I'm hurting,
I don't want someone to say, I'm sorry.
I just wanna be seen.
Every human just wants to be seen.
Or just sit there and let me talk about.
I wanna be seen by myself.
Yeah.
That's it.
I'm having a pain inside.

(01:38:56):
That pain, it's like a headache.
When you take something to dull the symptom,
when the symptom is pointing to an underlying problem,
then just follow the symptom.
Oh, I need to drink some more water.
Oh, then the headaches will stop.
So it's like my pain, my wound says,
that person doesn't like me.
That person doesn't respect me, whatever.

(01:39:17):
But that's not actually what it's saying.
That's what my brain's saying because the shame I feel
because of this wound inside, what I'm afraid of,
it all comes down to fear.
Every single time is something I'm afraid of.
It's embarrassing.
I don't wanna look at it.
And this all happens subconsciously,
but I don't want people to say, I'm sorry to me.
I just, I want people to listen.

(01:39:38):
I want people to care.
I want people to hear or not.
I want people to be themselves.
I think for me, when I feel like somebody's mad at me,
that's when I say, I'm sorry.
And it's not, it's more of me apologizing that I upset
or that I did something to cause pain,

(01:40:00):
but I'm trying to get away from it
and just realize that it's okay to note it and be like,
that wasn't my intention.
And then just continue, kind of like dad does.
Hey, he did the best he could.
Yes, we got damaged, but we have since grown up

(01:40:21):
and become adults and been like, you know what?
We don't need to take that damage with us.
And I think that it's the same.
I make somebody mad and I'm like,
I wanna like, oh my God, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
But instead just listen, take it.
Okay, now I know that that is a trigger point there
and continue on with life.

(01:40:42):
But all that trigger point, I mean,
what I'm trying to do instead of saying, I'm sorry,
what I'm trying to do is say,
okay, I can hear that you're frustrated.
I can see that you're upset.
And I think that it's because you feel like I'm whatever.
Like I try to just say it back to them
because what does it hurt me

(01:41:02):
if the person is seeing me in the totally wrong perspective?
It's like, what, I didn't mean that.
Like I was trying to do something nice for you
and you feel like I dissed you.
Like what the heck?
But that response doesn't help anybody.
And I'm sorry, also doesn't help anybody.
But if I'm just like, okay, if I say,
I can see that your feelings are hurt.

(01:41:24):
I'm not saying I hurt them, but it doesn't matter.
The point is not that I am seen
or that I feel good about myself.
The point is that I generally care about this person
and this person is hurting.
And yes, I know I didn't cause that pain
and I know it looks like I did to them.
But that's how I make space for that messy humanness

(01:41:45):
is by saying, oh, I can see that I hurt your feelings.
Or I don't know, I'm still trying to find the language
as I go, because it's not something I can memorize.
It just comes in the moment as I learn.
And have you ever noticed that sometimes
certain type of language,
you can say it to someone and they get it.
But that does not work.
That same language does not work with the next person.

(01:42:07):
Yep.
It's the same in everything.
Because every person is a completely different imprint.
Yeah.
Because every aspect of their life was different,
even from their sibling.
But I think I'm good at finding what language,
no, that's not what I meant.
Because I'm not good with language when it comes to myself,
but when it comes to mixing the connection

(01:42:30):
that I feel with somebody.
And when I say connection, I can connect to anybody.
Chameleon.
Yes.
When I connect with someone,
I can feel what they're trying to say.
And then I can, from a different point of view,
supply some stuff that might be helpful.
Do you feel like sometimes you feel like

(01:42:52):
you know what they're trying to say,
and then you find out that you were dead wrong?
No.
Okay.
Actually, that's not true.
With you, that is the only person that I've ever experienced
that with.
I tend to be extremely honest about what's happening
inside me.
Most people aren't.
Oh, is that what that is?
Yes.
No human can unerringly know what someone else is feeling.

(01:43:15):
All I'm speaking from is experience right now.
I used to think I was intuitive.
Like I wasn't into it.
I could read emotion.
Well, that's interesting.
And let me tell you something, I am.
I can read emotions extremely well,
and I am often wrong.
Ha!
But I know, I can feel the slightest shift
in the flux of the emotion.

(01:43:36):
And when I'm clear, I'm usually in the ballpark.
Right.
I usually am following what's happening.
But the minute anything happens inside my emotions,
and I won't even notice it, like nothing noticeable,
but just a little twitch.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
A little twitch, just a little something.
And it doesn't change much,
it just changes one little thing here.

(01:43:57):
And that changes one little thing here.
And you don't even realize it,
but I am thinking that this person
is feeling something completely different than they are.
Oh, oh, that's interesting.
Yep.
That's fear.
I'm going to- Fear distorts-
Pay attention to that. Perspective.
Always, if you're afraid, if you're sad,
if you're feeling any of the feelings

(01:44:18):
that feel negative to you.
Because those feelings don't feel negative to me anymore.
Sadness is beautiful.
But sadness plus fear is terrible.
I think, I don't know that I know,
sadness is not something that is super,
I mean, it's part of life,
but it's not something that feels huge to me.

(01:44:38):
Fear, well, my perception of fear
and like the paralyzing effect of it,
usually when something scares me, I run right towards it.
But worry is my big one.
I just, I'm always stressed and worried.
And I have tried to tell myself a different story
and most of the time it works,

(01:45:00):
but especially when it comes to money and stuff.
Am I ever going to get out of this?
Yes.
And in my experience,
every emotion inside of a person that they feel is negative.
I'm making a super broad statement,
but I'm just saying in what my conscious experience is
since I've become a conscious adult,
when you look closely at that emotion,

(01:45:22):
that feeling, the circumstances around it,
always you'll find fear underneath it.
It's just-
I understand what you're saying.
Which makes me wonder, what are you most afraid of?
What's the first thing that grabs you
that pops into your consciousness?
What's Mariah afraid of?
That's a good question.
Failing, whatever that means.

(01:45:44):
What does it mean?
What does it feel like?
Usually in a fear,
there's some sort of like an example story.
Like there's images or there,
it's like a vision board.
What's on that vision board?
What are some of the pictures or feelings of failure?
I used to would have said,
it was all about being able to pay my bills

(01:46:06):
and being able to make sure to have some balance to travel.
But now I have a partner,
so I think it shifted a little bit.
And now it's sometimes when I get busy and like,
okay, I have an appointment here and I've got to do this

(01:46:27):
and I've got to make sure to have money to pay that.
And I forget to focus on my journey of growing.
And that feels scary to me
because I know that the minute I lose that,
my relationship with my husband and myself
will start to go like to deteriorate.

(01:46:50):
And that scares me.
Okay, I'm gonna put that in different words
and then just let me know how it feels to you.
Okay.
Do you feel like you're afraid
that you've found a clarity inside yourself
that you might lose, that you could lose?
Are you afraid of losing a clarity or an awakeness
that you found inside yourself?

(01:47:11):
Not losing it.
I don't think you can lose when you lose
you can lose when you get, but life is so busy
and it's so like the days are long
and I feel like getting distracted from it
can like put it on a back burner
and that I don't think is good.

(01:47:34):
And then if it's on a back burner,
the reason that's not good is because it'll damage
the good things that you found.
Yes.
And so what does working on your journey look like to you?
Honestly, just thinking about it, thinking about it,
talking to my partner about it or husband.

(01:47:55):
How do you think about it?
What does it look like to you?
Cause it sounds like a practice or it sounds like,
and when I lose focus on my journey,
when you are focused on the journey,
which you're saying is thinking about it,
what does that look like in practical terms?
A big picture view so that I can see the past
of where I've come from, the present and then the future.

(01:48:20):
But that's all abstract.
How do you do that?
How do you make space for that in your life?
How do you make sure that you're not losing
your focus on that?
What do you do practically to keep yourself in your journey?
Just honestly- Or what do you wanna do?
Just dwell on it.
Just think about it.
To me, that's how I process things.
That's how I grow is just thinking.

(01:48:43):
Just having it in your awareness.
Thinking, yeah.
Like when you're driving or working or-
Yes. Okay.
And then also more recently,
it's talking to my husband about it and just like,
hey, I had this thought today.
And honestly asking him about his journey.

(01:49:05):
There's some pretty powerful stuff that comes up
and I'm just like, how did you figure that out?
I'm, and I get a little jealous sometimes.
I'm like, he's a very quick processor.
And I'm not, I mean, I can make last minute
instant decisions in an emergency or something,

(01:49:25):
but when it comes to like a decision or growing,
it's a pretty slow process.
I wonder if it's because we were raised to play
such complex head games with ourselves on so many levels.
And it's like, Jessie's just like, A is A.
That is that.
It's just that simple.
Walk from the one thing to the next thing.

(01:49:47):
Oh, your feelings are hurt.
Okay.
Like there is never a shadow of nuance
or other things behind it.
It's so simple and so clear.
And so-
Yeah. That's not my mind at all.
I remember when I was 21,
having a conversation with somebody about a decision
that I was needing to make.
And I remember telling them, I'm sorry,

(01:50:10):
I cannot make this decision quickly.
I need about a week because,
I don't even remember what it was,
because there is something in my brain
that whenever there is a big decision to be made,
it literally shuts down.
Yeah.
And honestly, the older I get, the less that is that way.

(01:50:31):
But I very distinctly remember in my 20s,
being so frustrated.
Yes.
Because I wanted to make a decision,
but my brain was like,
it's kind of like if you just go to like,
when you go to sleep and you just like that,
uh, that's what my brain does.
It's just, um.
That is not helpful.
That is not helpful while I'm trying to make decisions.

(01:50:54):
But I think I've kind of grown out of it a lot,
but it's still sometimes it's like really quiet in there
when I need it to not be.
Cause everyone freezes up,
because you have to go through so many different processes
to make the simplest decisions.
It's exhausting.
Yeah.
I believe that I can train my brain.
Oh yeah.
The brain is the most powerful thing in the world.

(01:51:15):
That's what I'm working on.
I want simplicity.
I'm simplifying everything in my life right now.
But honestly, Michael, I think that the quiet
that we feel is just like a,
I think that is just your brain being like,
oh my God, just shut the fuck up.
Well, sometimes it is,

(01:51:35):
but I know when it's a wall, when it's a block,
it's like you're stuck in the mud
and you spin in your wheels.
Like there's nothing there.
There's no contact.
And then I know I'm learning to know
that still small voice that is saying shh.
When that happens to me,
and honestly, I don't remember,
I don't can't remember the last time it's happened to me,

(01:51:57):
like in a big way.
But when that happens to me,
I have to just walk away from the decision or the whatever.
And my brain finds its way back in a less overwhelming way.
I guess.
And you can always just fall back on the full fuck yes.
Is it a full fuck yes?
Well, I think that's why-
Then I'm not gonna do it.
I think that's why I haven't been running into that

(01:52:20):
as much as because I,
like I think three years ago,
I was like, I sat down and had this whole thing
where I was gonna say yes.
I even have it hanging in my car window,
the little stones that I put, like they're rose quartz.
Like I'm gonna say yes.
And I feel like ever since I did that,
it hasn't been as overwhelming.

(01:52:42):
So that is a good point.
Say you're so smart.
I know.
You put words into things that I'm just like,
this was an abstract thing that I don't know
why this happened, but it's okay now.
Charlie called me off brand Jesus, like from wish.com.
Okay.
I have no idea what any of that means, but-

(01:53:04):
Charlie's humor, cause I'm so smart.
He doesn't buy it.
He's like, you're just weird.
Yeah, I mean, we all are weird.
I think that's kind of something that goes with our family.
If you were to describe yourself, like,
who are you right now?
Who are you?
What would you say?
What comes up for you?
I am a happy, satisfied person who really enjoys

(01:53:28):
working hard for my family.
I don't wanna like darken the mood at all,
but I wanna know if you were to die right now,
what is one thing you would want to just say
to whoever cared what you had to say?
Let go of things.

(01:53:48):
They're not worth holding on to.
And honestly, the biggest thing I feel
that I would want people to remember
is take responsibility for the damage
that other people did to you.
Grow up at one point and be like,
oh, I'm not a kid anymore.
I'm not gonna live in that.

(01:54:08):
I'm going to take responsibility for how I act now
and how I let my past and my childhood affect my life.
Take responsibility and let go.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
If I were in the market for a realtor
and I did not know you, how to contact you,

(01:54:30):
if I didn't have your phone number,
how could I get ahold of you?
Or how could I look, find out who you are?
Facebook, Google. Facebook.
I'm everywhere.
Oh yeah.
Just what is the, where would I go?
What would I type in?
Type in- Oh, Mariah Avery.
Best realtor.

(01:54:50):
No.
So you're on Facebook as Mariah Avery.
For now, but I got married.
So I'm gonna do a slow transition to Mariah Bryant.
Great.
But yeah, I don't know.
Contact you.
What's the new business?
Do you have a name for it?
For now, it's Pre-List Services

(01:55:13):
because a lot of the work needs to be done before you list.
So, but we do it for anybody.
Okay. One last question.
What's your art?
Sewing.
I love to sew.
That's another little dream of mine.
I want to, I love sewing costumes.
Why sewing?
Why? Okay.
So I'm here making costumes.

(01:55:33):
I am extremely creative,
but not with paint or dance or anything like that.
I am creative in, okay, here's a piece of material.
Okay, here's a picture in my head.
Let me just pull that out and make it.
Oh, and also baking.
I love baking pies and gingerbread houses.

(01:55:55):
Do you have any plans to get into costume
or clothing making?
Not clothing, but yeah, costume.
I am planning to, when I retire.
When you retire.
Yeah, when I open a costume shop.
How do you feel about waiting till then?
I don't want to,
but there's just not enough time in the day
for all the things I want to do.

(01:56:15):
What if somebody was like,
I want to facilitate someone who wants to design costumes
and I wanted to do this side of it.
Like there was just a situation that came
that someone wanted to kind of like try a,
like a little exploration in it with you.
Would you be just like, nope, no time.
Yeah, I would do it.
Okay.

(01:56:35):
As long as I could support myself still.
Yeah, no, I'm talking about like a passion thing.
Just like, I have this vision for art.
I have this vision for art.
Let's do, let's see what happens.
Oh yeah.
You would not hold that off till retirement necessarily?
Here's the thing about me.
I am not a starter.

(01:56:55):
I need somebody to get me started.
So if somebody came and said,
oh, I want to do this, let's start this.
But I am a finisher.
If there was that type of a collaboration,
what would you be doing?
The making part.
So you want to take someone else's idea and make it?
Is that what you're saying?
Well, a lot of people that sew are really like,

(01:57:17):
they take classes and they're really into,
this is how you cut it.
This is how you do a pattern.
This is, I don't know any of that stuff.
Okay.
I literally can take scissors,
cut something out in this shape.
I know some basics and then make it.
Sewing doesn't have to be follow a pattern
and make sure that it's exactly like this

(01:57:37):
and the stitches are exactly like that.
It's just a creating thing.
Like you sew from a creative place.
Yeah.
Wow.
All right.
That's got my wheels turning.
It's not at all like baking.
Now I love baking, but baking is a science.
You have to be very specific
and if you are off, it's fucked.

(01:57:57):
Except that if you were somebody
who felt that way about baking,
you'd be like, what are you talking about?
You just follow your gut.
That very well could be, but I'm a good baker.
But I feel like it needs to be, and this is pumpkin pie.
Then you triple the seasonings always.
But all the other ones,

(01:58:18):
it has to follow the directions.
And not every recipe is good,
but you have to be able to read
all these different recipes and be like,
hmm, which one sounds,
this one sounds like it would work well.
For you, it's sewing.
For you, it's sewing.
You can throw out all the recipes
and you can just make that thing happen.

(01:58:38):
That is so cool.
All right.
Fantastic.
Anything else that comes to your mind
or anything else you wanna say or how do you feel?
Like there's gonna be some people
that know some stuff about me
that probably nobody wants to know.
How do you feel about that?
A little bit awkward.

(01:58:59):
Whoa, it's after 10.
Oh my God.
I feel tired.
Yeah, me too.
Okay.
Well, thank you so much for just freaking doing this
and being like, well- Thanks for just talking to me.
Whatever, we're just gonna record a conversation.
I appreciate you.
I appreciate you. And I cannot wait to see-
Honestly, Michael, I have,

(01:59:20):
you have been so very foundational in my journey,
getting me started on it.
And I appreciate that.
Thanks.
That's my mission.
I wanna connect people with themselves.
I'm okay that we are having our family time as adults
instead of as children.
I really, really appreciate who I've become.

(01:59:41):
Me too.
So I equally appreciate everything that has brought me here.
Yeah, because you're not holding onto it
and being like, well, this happened to me.
No, thanks.
Yeah.
Not anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I appreciate every minute of it.
All right, well, once you guys get all your business,
crazy adventures, it's tamed down a little bit

(02:00:03):
and you start like looking around
and all of a sudden you're starting to explore your art.
We'll be back here again.
Oh, yay.
Or if you ever decide you have something else you wanna say.
I'm always open for any conversation.
We could just dive into journeys, like process.
And honestly, I feel like these sorts of discussions

(02:00:25):
are an ongoing, like every time you sit down,
it's another layer and more that you can share.
And quite frankly, sitting here talking to you helps me.
I think I've realized three different things about myself
and please don't ask me what they were because.
What were, oh, okay.
Because I won't be able to just say them.

(02:00:47):
No, I know.
My brain doesn't work that way.
But there was three different realizations about myself.
Sweet.
That I realized or connected and I knew them about myself,
but I connected it because you verbalized
something about it.
That does not make any sense, but it made sense to me.
Well, no, having that outside,
just having someone who's actually listening.

(02:01:09):
I'm trying to understand the emotions you're trying to give
and then I'll ask questions back just to help me understand.
I think that's what you're talking about.
I'm just trying to figure out.
Totally.
I'm just, every place I find myself in the world.
I feel humbled though.
I really do feel humbled because I think there was some
thoughts about myself and who I am

(02:01:31):
that perhaps weren't entirely how they were.
Like, especially with like understanding people.
Yes, I know what you mean.
And being more mindful of that and more humble with that,
I think that's a good idea.
Well, I really appreciate that you're open
to just being honest and looking inside yourself.
So thanks for giving, and you've always just been

(02:01:54):
very patient with me as I've challenged this day.
I've just got this crap out of you.
And just gone through all of my trying to figure out
how to communicate and not just tromp around
in my boots on everybody.
So.
You're great.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you.
Humble tough.

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Moriah: from the cult - a voice that grew

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Moriah: from the cult - a voice that grew