November 20, 2024 • 59 mins
Can navigating a toxic relationship ultimately become a catalyst for personal transformation? Join us on Thrive and Decide this week as Jamie, our courageous guest, shares her harrowing journey through a marriage marked by manipulation and control. From societal conditioning that encouraged people-pleasing to the explosive outbursts of her ex-husband, Jamie opens up about the tumultuous path she walked. Her story isn't just about surviving—it’s about finding strength in vulnerability and turning painful experiences into a beacon of hope for others trapped in similar cycles.
Jamie doesn’t shy away from the complexities and emotional hurdles she endured, including an unexpected pregnancy and the heartache of parental alienation. Her candid reflection on these challenges reveals deep insights into the human spirit's resilience. We explore the psychological warfare of gaslighting and the heart-wrenching estrangement from her son, all while emphasizing the importance of familial support and self-discovery. Jamie's experiences underline the critical need for emotional healing and the reclaiming of one’s voice against the backdrop of toxic family dynamics.
Finally, our conversation takes a hopeful turn as we highlight the transformative power of therapy and supportive communities. Whether it's through the catharsis of journaling or the guidance of mental health professionals, the journey from survival to empowerment is paved with self-awareness and boundary-setting. Jamie’s story is a testament to overcoming adversity and nurturing a renewed sense of self-worth. Tune in for an insightful conversation that not only sheds light on the dark corners of narcissistic relationships but also inspires hope and healing.
Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive
and Decide.
This week, we are joined byJamie, who is going to share her
story.
You know, she's very graciouslydecided that she will share her
story, and what I love about itis that you know she dealt with
a situation that I think a lotof people out there are dealing
(00:23):
with, and you know, I justreally wanted her to come on and
talk about, you know, the toxic, narcissistic relationships she
went through, things she did to, you know, get through it and
to heal.
She now is, you know, thrivingand doing so much better, and so
I just really wanted her tocome on share her story so that
anyone out there listening thatmaybe is stuck in a relationship
(00:45):
like this.
You know you're not alone Uh,you're not the only person, um,
and there's no reason to feelshame or anything with this
relationship.
So, jamie, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I really appreciate it.
You're welcome.
I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So, um, I guess just I don'tknow where you want to start,
but if you'd like to share, youknow kind of how you met and you
know your relationship and howit kind of developed and you
know, I I highly doubt that thenarcissistic things were coming
out when you were dating or elseyou wouldn't have married him,
or maybe you would have, I don'tknow.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think that, and there's really a
pre-story to that that I havefound is, I know I was really
conditioned as a young female topeople please, to man, please,
to be that person that would bethe most attractive in every way
(01:41):
, which a lot of the times wasto not use my voice and to
shrink and just be small.
I watched my mother do it, Iwatched my three sisters do it,
and that was just the norm atthe time.
Yeah, my parents being the lastof four girls, my parents
(02:06):
weren't really engaged with atleast two of us and I get that
now because I couldn't have hadfour children, but it was my
sister just next to me in age.
We were kind of left alone alot, and all they really wanted
was for us to get married to agood provider.
(02:27):
Now my dad wanted us to go tocollege but, more importantly,
to marry a man that could handlethe finances, because the
message was we probably couldn'tdo that or do it as best we
could, and so that just kind ofbecame the goal for us.
We thought that was the end all, and so they really liked my
(02:52):
ex-husband.
I had dated other people thathad different religions and they
weren't okay with that.
They are very kind ofevangelical Christian people my
dad's no longer here but verykind of like this is the only
way and they need to be whiteAnglo-Saxon.
(03:15):
You know, that's my parents.
And so they thought he was great.
Plus, he owned his own business.
They thought he was going to bea really good provider.
So I'm like I guess I found itright.
I guess I found it, yeah.
And then you know, fast forward.
There were a lot of red flags inthe relationship and I won't go
into all of them, but lookingback now and I don't blame
(03:38):
myself, no, I think that this isso normal from talking to so
many people, and I want tonormalize it because when you
don't, it feels shameful.
And so we, especially women inthe society, have been
conditioned to believe thingsand to just go with the flow and
(04:01):
try to please, and that's whatI was doing.
So every time something didhappen and he would look at me
like I was weird and say you'rejust overreacting.
You know why are you soinsecure?
Well, I know now that wascovering for probably the other
things he was doing with otherwomen at the time, and I always
(04:22):
had those feelings the time, andI always had those feelings and
he was always kind of making mefeel jealous and it was hard,
but he made me feel like I wascrazy.
Yeah, so anyway, we got marriedand literally the honeymoon was
over the day we got back fromthe honeymoon, literally and
(04:42):
figuratively, because he was aperson that didn't use credit
cards.
A plus for that was there wasnever debt, right, that's good,
right.
But this was extreme.
And so I had a credit card inmy name and I had put our what?
Some of our wedding expenses onit.
So I came home and there was abill for $1,600.
(05:04):
He opened it and I he flew intosuch a rage and picked up a
kitchen chair and threw itacross the room and it
splintered into like five or sixpieces.
Wow, and I remember thinking Inever want to see this behavior
again.
I never want to see this.
It's just so scary.
(05:26):
And so he took my credit cardand he put me on a budget and I
had to start giving him all ofmy paychecks.
And I did that because Ithought he was taking care of me
, right.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Because you had been conditioned that that's what the
man does.
You give them the money and heknows what's best for us.
Yep, so he's going to you know,well, here's your money for
this, but oh no, you can't dothat Like.
That's how we were conditioned.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Absolutely, ugh yeah.
And so I mean I hardly hadenough money to buy my own lunch
, and every time I would buygroceries, he's like, well,
you're, you're not shopping atthe right places, this is too
much money.
I mean it was hypercritical.
Um, so uh, that was happening.
And then we had our first child, um, and I realized very
(06:19):
quickly there that I was goingto be the one doing the labor.
Well, it's women's work, somany women do.
I had an emergency C-sectionand the day I got home it was
hard for me to get out of bedstill, and so he slept with me
and the baby was there, and whenshe started crying he got mad
at me because he had to go towork, and so he left and went to
(06:41):
another room and I really justneeded him to help get the baby
to me because of my incision.
So there were things like that,you know, in the marriage and
the control increased.
(07:03):
And so I didn't have thislanguage back then, but it was
really financial abuse.
I stayed at home with the kids.
I had my second child they wereabout two and a half years
apart.
I stayed at home until my well.
I worked part-time after mydaughter was born and then I
stopped and I stayed at homeuntil my son went to first grade
and then I was very fortunate.
I knew I needed to work becauseI needed money, went to first
(07:25):
grade and then I was veryfortunate.
I knew I needed to work becauseI needed money.
There was never enough moneyfor me to buy groceries.
I often would be in a grocerystore in a wealthy community
putting groceries back, saying Ican't, I need to take off these
four things because I didn'thave the money to pay for it,
because he would always give mecash, wow.
(07:46):
So it's kind of doing like theprice is right all through the
grocery store.
Right, because it was reallyembarrassing.
Yeah, toting two small childrenaround saying I can't buy this,
I can't buy that, yeah.
So I'm like I can't do thisanymore and I started to become
the queen of workarounds, whichis good and bad.
Yeah, because when you are, youare enabling that person to
(08:10):
continue and increase theabusive behavior, mm-hmm.
So I knew by working I couldpay for my children's clothing,
groceries, I paid for theirextracurricular activities, any
kind of need that they have Iwas usually able to pay for.
(08:30):
And they were absolutely afraidto go to their father to ask
for money.
And I had them saying thingslike Dad will never let me get
another pair of shoes.
And I'm like, well, okay.
And so, in order to protectthem, I said we'll do this
(08:51):
together, right Again, enablinghim, yeah, but I don't blame
myself.
I was protecting my kids fromsome harshness and for some
trouble, you know, from sometrouble.
My daughter was diagnosed withautism.
I knew that, you know,something was up when she turned
around six and he was just indenial about everything.
(09:15):
Of course I wanted to dotherapies.
I was, you know, my head justwas down and trying to
understand what autism was andwhat therapies to do.
And he wouldn't pay for therapy.
He didn't think it wasnecessary.
So, again, I was the queen ofworkarounds.
(09:36):
I went down to the FranklinCounty Developmental
Disabilities Board and theyapproved her for a community
waiver for $5,000.
So now I had access to $5,000every year to do therapies and I
would get a list of providersand I would have to call them
(09:58):
and see if you know that wouldwork.
Yeah, so I ended up driving allover the city because it was a
list I had to work on, work from.
So that was really.
I mean, did I want to leave inmy marriage all the time?
Um, but I had my kids and I.
(10:21):
I I was like I'm trying to keepthis family intact.
I mean it was never intact.
But I was trying to keep itlooking that way, yeah, and all
the time I would feel likepeople couldn't find out about,
like if people saw what's goingon in here, I think they would
think that was awful.
But I never wanted to believeit because If I started to
(10:45):
really believe it, I then wouldbe unable to stop seeing it and
that would lead to somethingthat I didn't want in terms of
our marriage and separation.
So I didn't look at it.
Yeah, so a lot of financialabuse.
(11:05):
My ex-husband was actuallydiagnosed with narcissistic
personality disorder by one ofour therapists, but and another
therapist also also handed me anarticle about narcissism, and
so this one therapist said I, Ican't help you because your
(11:28):
husband actually doesn't knowhow to love you.
It's, it's part of this.
You know disorder, yeah, andI'm like of this.
You know disorder, yeah, andI'm like I didn't.
At that point I was 47.
(11:51):
I had become pregnantunexpectedly, oh wow, and I went
into a major depressive episode.
Yeah, because all the things Iwas trying to hold together just
collapsed, like my house ofcards just fell to the ground,
yeah, and I couldn't move and Ithought I cannot do it.
I cannot do this.
I cannot have another child.
I cannot be with him.
I was just a wreck.
(12:12):
Yeah, my sisters came around tosupport me.
My ex-husband thought it wascrazy and wanted to
institutionalize me.
What he?
That's what he told ourtherapist Wow, so, um, he was
obviously not helpful, right.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Cause, clearly, you're in this, like this crazy
situation where you know youweren't trying to get pregnant
and now you are, and now all thethings that you've been doing
to protect your kids into, like,you know, just one more day.
Just one more day.
You know, just like, just keepswimming, just keep swimming,
I'm going to get there.
(12:51):
And then, all you know, thishappens and it just blows your
world up and what you need iswhat your sisters were giving
you, which was the love andsupport and the help, and what
he was giving you was nothelpful at all by, you know,
making you feel crazy, makingyou sound crazy, talking about
institutionalizing you insteadof being like, wow, yeah, this
(13:13):
is not what we planned, but like, what, what can we do together?
How can I help you, you know,to get through this Right.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
There's none of that.
I mean even told my sisterswhat's wrong with her.
Why is she acting like this?
You know, and I was it wasmajor depressive disorders.
It was the scariest thing I'veever gone through.
Yeah, I felt like I was nevergoing to get better and it just
(13:43):
so happened.
You know, I'm 47.
So they did an ultrasound andfound that the egg never did
implant.
Oh okay, and so I had to have aDNC.
The egg never did implant, ohokay, and so I had to have a DNC
.
Um, and I was obviouslyincredibly relieved I hate to
(14:05):
say that, but that's just whereI was at the time Um, and um,
and I think that's okay, likethat's.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Another thing that I would like to make sure is
normalized is that there arethings that people have to make
a decision about and you makethe best decision that you can
with all of the details that youhave at that moment.
Yeah, and that's it, and you dowhat's best for you.
Um, so I think that's anotherthing that I would really like
to normalize is just that don'tfeel the shame around what you
(14:34):
did to take care of you and yourbody and your family, and it's
not like it was a viablepregnancy anyway.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, it wasn't.
I mean, it wasn't the.
Actually it had already passed,but they needed to do this for
medical reasons, for sure.
Which is where we are in ourcountry right now is backwards,
right, but I would have died ifI didn't have that Exactly, or
go on septic or something.
So anyway, so that was done,but he didn't come to the DNC
(15:06):
with me.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Oh, I hope your sister or somebody did.
My sister did, okay, good.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And it was so much better to have her there.
Yeah, it was so much better tohave her there, yeah, so you
know, then there was a lot ofjust psychological and emotional
abuse.
I didn't have those words backthen, but even my children, we
(15:34):
would be gaslit so much and theywould say why does dad do that?
Why does he always say thatdidn't happen, or I didn't say
that, or you know, just denyingour reality.
And again, we didn't know thatword.
But that's what was happeningall of the time.
Yeah, um, after I had thatmiscarriage, um, I decided to go
(15:58):
back into therapy and I hadbeen in and out of therapy for
years and, um, I decided that Iwas going to start using my
voice more good, and so I wouldstart saying no to things I
(16:18):
would.
His family was felt very toxicto me and I would take my own
car so I could leave when Iwanted to leave.
I started to do things to takecare of myself, but what I
(16:40):
didn't see happening was thegrooming of my children, you
know, in terms of how he wastreating me.
And later in the marriage,things started to get worse,
because I was starting to be myown person and realizing that I
abandoned some really corevalues when I was married to him
.
Uh, in terms of theconversation in my house about
(17:00):
other people and other peoplegroups, um, just the statements
that were racist andmisogynistic, yeah, I allowed, I
just put my head down and Istarted realizing that, like I
can't do this, yeah, I can't doit.
He didn't like that.
(17:23):
I was coming out of my littlebox.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
That was a big problem, and so things started
to get worse, as my husband, myhusband, god, it's such a habit
to say, like my husband, likewhen, especially when you go
back to like, share your story,because you almost go back to
that time and that's that's howyou knew them.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Right, well, I actually was going to say my son
.
That's why it was even weirder.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
And that's okay.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, yeah, um, he and I had a very close
relationship and you know hewould say things to me like Mom,
I'm so glad to have you,because I don't know if Dad's
ever really loved me or beenproud of me, and that's soul
crushing.
It was soul crushing, but Ididn't explore it with him.
(18:16):
It's one of my major regrets.
I didn't get curious.
I would say things like oh, Iknow he does.
You know I mean I would try toreinforce that he did and he
just acted in different ways.
And he even my son, even to me.
I started to, my depressionstarted to increase again and my
(18:40):
ex-husband was really again notpaying any attention to me
because he thought it was soawful and weird and he would
always say things like you'renot praying enough, you don't
have a good relationship withGod.
So the spiritual stuff wasalways a thing.
I was never good enough.
(19:00):
And so my son came to me and hesaid, mom, what's wrong?
And I said I'll be okay.
I think I just my depression isincreasing.
And he said, mom, you know youcan't talk to dad about that,
but you can talk to me aboutthat.
And the next day he came homewith flowers for me.
(19:22):
Now, I've never received flowersin my marriage, never received
a card, even though I asked timeand time again.
There was nothing he put intothe marriage and I hate to sound
so extreme, but I really have ahard time recounting things.
Yeah, yeah, there was one timewhen he was well, he was in a
(19:45):
Bible study because he was avery godly man.
Oh, clearly, yeah, yeah, and alot of those men would just
really prop each other up.
So they just decided to have achallenge, which now is so
hilarious to me.
Their challenge was to buytheir wife, their wives, flowers
on Valentine's day.
I'm like you really need achallenge.
(20:08):
That's the challenge.
Wow, right, wow.
So I got flowers and I'm likeyou know what's this?
And he said, well, it was achallenge.
I'm like mm-hmm.
But they were flowers thatweren't wrapped in anything,
they were just kind of flowers.
They weren't like there was nocellophane or bows and they
(20:30):
looked a little wilty.
So the next day they werecompletely dead and I said, you
know, look at these.
I said you might want to go getyour money back, yeah, and he's
like, oh, yeah, he took them,and that was it.
Like I didn't get new flowers,that was it.
(20:51):
So even you were calling a thingyeah, was never really a thing.
So you know, I could.
You know, marriages like thisare like really small and large
paper cuts until you're bleedingall over the place.
Yeah, you know, I could.
(21:14):
I could tell you things thathappened all of the time and
you'd be pretty shocked.
Um one time we were drivingacross the country and we
stopped at a place so I couldlook at some healthier options
to eat, because I didn't wantfast food, right, and it was
(21:35):
kind of like a truck stop, butthey had a place where you could
buy some groceries, if thatmakes sense, yeah, so I'm
looking for things and, um,they're, I think, in the car, my
phone's in the car, and I comeout and they're gone and I was
so horrified and embarrassed andscared that I just I looked at
(21:59):
people and then I just kind ofwalked back in and pretended I
was looking for things.
I looked at people and then Ijust kind of walked back in and
pretended I was looking forthings and I kept looking out
and about 20 minutes later thecar pulls back up and I come out
.
I'm like what just happened,right?
And he's like, oh, don't beridiculous, we wanted to get our
(22:21):
stuff so we could get on theroad.
I said my phone was in this car.
Why didn't anyone come in andtell me no, nothing, I mean just
this kind of stuff.
But it's always like you'remaking too big of a deal out of
this.
Yeah, you know.
So when, towards the very end ofmy marriage, um, my sister was
(22:44):
in transition, so she lived withus for about four months and
she came to me after about fourmonths and said I can't live
here anymore.
I cannot see what they do toyou, how they treat you, because
then my kids were also gangingup on me.
(23:06):
It was like three against oneand mom's the scapegoat, um, and
so things are really heating up.
Um, the money.
You know, I remember I I cookedfive nights a week and and one
time I'd run out of money.
(23:26):
I was completely out by about,you know, seven days before the
month was over and I asked himfor some money and he said you
know, we haven't had enoughmeals at home for you to be out
of money.
And it was just all those cuts,right.
I mean, it was so hard.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Well, yeah, because you hear that and you, being the
person that you are, youinternalize that and you're like
, oh my God, I suck, like Ishould have, I should have
gotten more groceries, like youknow, I should have made this,
or I should have done that, like, and no, none of that is your
fault and I hope that you'verealized that now that you know,
(24:05):
like that is not, that's not onyou, that is a reflection of
him and his narcissisticbehavior Right, gaslighting the
shit out of you Right, andalthough I do, because I I mean
it's my business now I am, Imean my therapist like know more
than most of my colleaguesabout narcissism and I can
(24:28):
intellectually know that, but Istill suffer from the
gaslighting.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, it's still hard for me sometimes.
I mean I had to ask my sistersfor permission to buy things
when I left my marriage.
I couldn't do it alone.
Marriage, I couldn't do italone.
But the crescendo to all ofthis was my son was.
He was a senior, I think, andhe we had a little place out in
(25:00):
the country and my husband wouldgo there every weekend and we
used to do that, but my kidsreally wanted to stay at home,
for sure they're teenagers, yeah.
And so he would always go, hewould always go without us.
And one time, you know, I wasgoing to a pre-party for my
son's prom was senior year andyou know how they take pictures
and everything, and so I wasgetting ready to go.
It was a Friday night and I Iasked my ex-husband.
(25:22):
I said you know, are you ready?
And he's like I'm not going tothat, I'm like it's his senior
prom.
He's like yeah, I went, nothingto do with that.
And he left and I went on myown.
I've come to find out.
I think there was somebodyinvolved with him and even my
son said do you think dad'shaving an affair?
Said, do you think dad's havingan affair?
Of course I'm like, oh no, Ithink he was.
(25:43):
Like I could look back throughsome records and I have some,
but I don't really even careabout that part, right?
Um, so I had planned my son'ssenior spring break with some of
his buddies.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It was the first time I wasn't with my daughter and I
love my daughter so much withmy daughter and I love my
daughter so much, but it couldbe stressful, of course, um,
anytime you have a child withspecial needs, it is, and that
is another thing.
We've found a lot of thingsthat we need to normalize here,
(26:18):
but it is normal to feeloverwhelmed and sadly, we as
moms and as women, we feel shameif we feel overwhelmed at
having to take care of our child.
But guess what?
It's normal, it's a hundredpercent normal.
I mean, my kids don't havespecial needs and I still get
overwhelmed where I'm like, ohdear God, like I just need to
(26:39):
run away, be in a hotel bymyself, oh my gosh, Like I can't
.
This is just too much Right.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yes, but I was told that I was being ridiculous.
Of course you were, and that Iwas weak.
Yeah, and you know, just again,you're not praying hard enough.
So and I knew being with thoseboys would be really hard on her
.
So I'm like we got on vacation.
It was the first morning.
We're in a house with a pool.
(27:05):
I stepped out back with a cupof coffee.
I'm like, oh, I was ready tojust relax.
I sat down, he's on the phone,he gets off the phone, he looks
at me and he says what are wedoing?
I said I'm just having mycoffee and he said, no, I mean,
I want a wife that agrees withme politically and theologically
(27:28):
and this marriage is notsustainable for 20 plus years.
And I just again, that was thelast Jenga piece you know it was
like that was the last Jengapiece, you know it was like
tumbled to the ground.
Yeah, I was out.
Now, what he meant by those twothings was this is 2016.
(27:53):
And I was not going to vote forDonald Trump yeah, a personal
decision because of how hetreated women and folks with
disabilities.
Yep, so I was out and he wasvery angry at me for that and
embarrassed Because I would postthings about, you know, voting
for Hillary Clinton, right, andhe was so embarrassed by that.
(28:19):
And my nephew is gay and he wasgetting married and I was going
to go to the wedding and hesaid you should not go to that,
our children will not go to that, because you know, it was
sinful, of course, right, so Iwas going to go, and he was so
angry about those two thingsthat I started.
(28:43):
I really started to disassociate.
I think now that I understandwhat that means, I felt like
there was a I split, like therewas a woman inside me saying get
the hell out and start doingsomething.
And she was, and I felt theother woman, almost watching her
from above, a little bit Likewho are you?
(29:06):
And that was my shadow self.
That always helped me stay inthe situation and I know that
was a survival mechanism, right,yeah, just to dampen everything
, so I wouldn't leave.
And I just went forward, wentforward.
So I knew that we had money.
(29:30):
We had three houses.
I knew we had money.
Yeah, I never saw any of it,but I knew we had it.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Well no, you were overspending at the grocery
store.
Well, yeah, I was busy, that'swhy you didn't see it we were
having filet every night andcrab, of course, those lobster
tails crab legs.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
All that yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So I and I think this is also very normal for a lot
of women I never saw a financialaccount, never.
I never talked to a financialadvisor, I never signed a tax
return, I never saw anythingrelated to that and I thought he
(30:15):
was just taking care of me.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So again this is like several months before our
marriage ended he came to me andhe said you know you weren't
around and I needed somethingsigned to move some money.
And the bank says they don'tthink it's your signature
because I wrote your name, Isigned your name, so I need you
(30:39):
to talk to them on speaker withanother representative and tell
them that that's you.
And again, I had learned to usemy voice more and so I said
well, what do you mean?
I'm not around, I live with you, right, and it's not OK for you
to do that.
You can never sign my nameagain.
(31:00):
I'm really angry.
And again, he made very littleof it, of course, and so I had.
I was on a call with two banksand I said to him you know, if
they asked me if I signed it,I'm going to say no, but if they
asked me if I could, it's okayto move the money, I will say
yes.
And so they asked me if it wasokay to move the money and I
just said yes.
(31:21):
So I protected him.
Then, right, come to find out.
You know he's set up all thesefinancial accounts in my name
which I've never signed for, andI think he did that a lot, I
think, to protect his business.
You know there was any, youknow, so I get that.
But I all of the statementswere sent to his office with my
(31:42):
name on it, so he was openingthe mail and all of that.
So when we I'm like I'm done.
You know, we started talkingabout separating.
He sat me down and he said theonly way this will work is if
you take this much money anddon't get an attorney.
And I'm like what do you meanthe only way this will work?
(32:07):
Because I think it would beimportant for me to get an
attorney Right.
I don't know the full scope ofthings, I don't know what our
liabilities are, and he wasangry about that.
And I questioned him about theamount because I thought that
(32:29):
amount really doesn't seem likeit would be fair, right?
So then my kids were starting toadjust to the news and my son
came to me and asked me to go todinner.
He had just turned 18.
He was going to go off tocollege and he said to me at
(32:51):
dinner mom, I've seen thesettlement that dad's offering
you.
I don't know why he would see asettlement Right.
I mean he was just 17,.
Just turned 18.
Well, why would your child seethat?
And he said if you don't takethat and if you get an attorney,
I won't be able to talk to youuntil this is over.
(33:13):
Oh, and Sarah, I didn't believehim.
Yeah, you know, I'm like.
I'm like what are you talking?
Speaker 1 (33:23):
about.
Well, cause, you have to wonder, like who the hell like made
him think like that?
Or did his dad say, hey, yousee you, now that you've seen
this, like you know, if your momdoes this, like you can't talk
to her, or whatever, like heactually started to coercively
control my son and manipulatehim.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I'm sure he threatened him with not you know
many things Right.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Not paying for something, not doing something,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Not loving him anymore.
Yeah, and I was always the safeparent, so I just kept going.
I don't know what you'retalking about, honey, I will
always be here.
And he did it once again when Iwas in court.
Right after court, my sisterand I were in the car together
and he called and I had him onspeaker and he's like I know.
(34:17):
His father called him rightafter he left and so he said why
can't you just settle this?
Just take the offer.
Don't you think I want arelationship with my mother?
I'm like I said, honey, I don'tunderstand what you're saying.
You have a relationship with me, what are you talking about?
(34:38):
But he wouldn't go into it.
Yeah, so, um, anyway.
But he wouldn't go into it.
Yeah, so um, anyway.
I went through this and my songot angrier and angrier.
I mean, I saw him in fall whilehe was in college and by
christmas time he was reallypoisoned.
Yeah, um.
And when I found out what ourassets were, my ex was offering
(35:02):
me 8%.
Jesus, yeah, and full wellknowing I would be supporting
our daughter.
Right, she lives with me.
There's, you know, it's, it's,there's things associated with
that that I would always have topay for, and so it was a
(35:23):
two-year high conflict divorce.
My ex-husband would beintimidating during that time.
He would send me threateningmail.
He had put a gun in mydaughter's lunchbox and she came
(35:52):
home and opened it and ofcourse really freaked out For
sure and he's like you'reoverreacting.
I was just putting it there forstorage.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Right In her lunchbox .
In her lunchbox, I mean, that'swhere I store my stuff too, my
kids' lunchboxes.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, what?
Yeah, it was to intimidate me,of course, yeah, and so I got a
security person for a while.
That's when I found out aboutthis other woman that was living
at a place that he owned and,um, after I got one of those
properties, she left and went tolived at another place that he
(36:32):
had.
So you know, I'm like whatever,that means nothing to me, um.
So, um, then it was rightbefore trial, we were going to
go to trial and he was deposed.
And my attorney says to me laterI've never heard anyone say
this before in all of my time asa family law attorney, and she
(36:59):
did a lot of high conflictdivorce and she did a lot of
high conflict divorce.
So when he was being deposed,she asked him if he knew that he
was not supposed to come andtake checks to my front door
because I didn't have money andhe had to give me money every
month.
Yeah, so he would just comepeer in my windows, take the
(37:21):
check on it, and I was alwaysjust so anxious and scared.
And so he said, yeah, I'm awareof that.
And she.
He said, but she's stealing mymoney.
And she said did you saystealing?
And he said, yeah, she is, andI think right after that they
(37:45):
offered a different settlement.
I'm sure his attorney was likedude, you can't go on the record
.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
You can't say that.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
And if you say that to a judge, it's not going to go
well for you.
Yeah.
So we settled that weekend andI got about 40%.
I was going to say I hope formore than 8%.
Yeah, but it was funny as Iwould have settled for 30.
Yeah, but I think at that pointis Lori was like you want to,
(38:13):
if she's going to get 50, if youwalk in the courtroom, yeah.
And shortly after that my soncalled me and this is the sad,
saddest part of my story, themost confusing part of my story.
He told me that I had hurt hisfather so much.
(38:34):
His father was such a good manand he was not going to talk to
me anymore.
And it's been seven years.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Oh God, I'm so sorry, and you still haven't talked in
that entire seven years.
Oh.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
We emailed one time.
I mean I will say I still emailhim, I still text him, I still
send cards, I still text him, Istill send cards, I sent care
packages.
I will always be his mom, forsure, but he's still living with
his dad and now he's 25, fouryears out of college and I'm
(39:23):
sure it feels very beholden tohim.
Yeah, um, the one time heanswered my email was when I
wanted to say I wanted to buyhim a graduation gift and he
quickly said well, you can giveme money and you can Venmo me,
which, again, if you knownarcissism, it's.
Narcissists are so sly andstrategic and they build
(39:49):
narratives way before somethinghappens.
It's unbelievable.
Yeah, like they have thisplaybook of what they can do to
smear you and to make themselveslook like the victim.
Yeah, and so you know thenarrative was to smear you and
to make themselves look like thevictim.
Yeah, and so you know thenarrative was I was greedy, I
(40:16):
was cheating and I was a liar.
And actually I got threesettlement checks after that and
he would mail them to me and onon the envelope it would be
addressed to the dragon deviland on the notes section of the
check it would say liar cheatthief, and I would go to the
bank and deposit those for sure,and they would just look at me
(40:38):
like I'm sorry.
But the last one was reallyawful because it said all the
things and then there was apost-it note on it that said I
hope this was worth losing yourson over.
He just outed himself.
I mean, you know there'ssomething you may have heard
(40:58):
called parental alienation.
Yeah, there's something you mayhave heard called parental
alienation.
Yeah, no-transcript, but it'sreally just a set of behaviors
to coercively control your child.
(41:19):
Yeah, to not be with the lovingparent.
You'll always see the lovingparent on the rejection side and
the toxic parent on thealienating side.
Yeah, and there's differentdegrees of it.
This is pretty severe parentalalienation.
Yeah, different degrees of it.
(41:44):
This is pretty severe parentalalienation.
And now you know he has his ownagency.
I know that People talk aboutthat.
So I also know that there's aton of pathology and psychology
here for my son, because I heardit when he was growing up.
You know I heard how much hewanted a relationship with his
father and you know I thinkthere's a real attachment style
(42:10):
issue for my son and you know hewould never seek therapy.
His father thinks it'sridiculous to go to therapy.
Oh of course, such a waste ofmoney.
Yeah, so that's what's going onfor me, and my daughter still
lives with me, she's 27.
And you know, for a while itwas really hard for her to go
(42:37):
back into that environment andthen come home, because every
time she did I felt like sheneeded to go through a car wash
because of the toxins that wouldattach to her yeah, it's like
you needed to sage her.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Like the second, she walked in the door right and she
was struggling.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
I mean, autism helped her in the way that she has
very black and white thinking.
So she's like what you'resaying about your mom, my mom is
not.
So not true.
Yeah, like my mom is this, andso it helped her kind of go.
I'm not believing thatnarrative, but she still was
(43:15):
pulled in and so she's now tothe point where you know,
working with a therapist, thatshe understands what boundaries
are, she knows how to protectherself Things don't happen
nearly as much as they do butshe doesn't have a relationship
with her brother Because, youknow, her father would say, well
(43:40):
, you talk about your mother andhe doesn't want to hear about
that.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, so it's so heartbreaking and it's
heartbreaking to know that yourex-husband has so much hate
inside of him and so muchnarcissism inside of him that he
would validate and make it beokay that your son would not
(44:13):
talk to you Like it's.
It's horrible and it'sheartbreaking and I'm so sorry
that that's what you're goingthrough.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, I've been through a lot of therapy.
Yeah, I mean, for a while Ineeded to see her twice a week.
Yeah, I was a wreck, and youknow, I know.
Now, when I am just, I justneed to really go cry, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
When I think, you know, I was talking with Chris,
who's a mutual friend of ours.
I was talking with her theother day and I said you know,
that's one of the things thatyou know I really want women to,
to understand and to normalizeagain.
We're normalizing.
It's okay.
If you feel sad, throw yourselfthe damn pity party, have the
(45:05):
pity party, eat all the thingsthat make you feel good, cry it
out, grab the Ben and Jerry's,watch the shit television.
Whatever it is that you need todo to throw that pity party.
Don't shove down the feelings.
Don't say, oh, I shouldn't, Idon't have time to cry, nope,
you do.
No, take that day, feel all thefeelings, because then the next
(45:28):
day You're going to wake up andyou're going to feel Okay, now
I can, I can put my big girlpanties on and I can face this
day and and that's okay, thatyou know.
And maybe in the beginning youthrow those petty parties.
You know a couple of times aweek, or you know a few times a
month or whatever, and that'sokay and you know.
But you, just you have to honorthose feelings, cry it out and
(45:51):
move on.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yes, and it doesn't mean that you're weak.
No, it actually means you haveto allow your human body to have
what it needs, and so emotionsare things that should be
processed all the way out ofyour body, like through your arm
even, and that's why journalingis helpful, because it comes
(46:12):
out through your arm, right.
But crying, I mean, we werebuilt to cry for reasons and
it's to let all of that out, andso I know the way I feel, my
body when I need to cry, and alot of times I will listen to a
soundtrack that I've developedso I can playlist and I'll tune
into it, yeah.
(46:32):
Or I'll take a nap, yeah, youknow, and it's really helpful.
I know I'm a really strongperson.
I'm also on depression meds Imean my, and that's also in my
(46:59):
genetic profile, yeah.
So I don't, I'm okay with that.
I know people, for many validreasons, don't want to do that,
but for me it really works.
But I couldn't even receivetherapy until I was on the
antidepressant.
I couldn't even receive therapyuntil I was on the
(47:20):
antidepressant.
It was so, it was so.
I was so below the bottom, andso now that I'm not, I can
receive things and I can takesomething so hard and make
something out of it and that'swhat I.
I had a coach for a while whounderstood, understood
(47:41):
narcissistic abuse and it washugely helpful, especially for
the validation, because whenyou're gaslit for so long, you
lose the ability toself-validate and you
desperately need a validatingcommunity.
And you desperately need avalidating community.
I've seen it with each of myclients and it's almost like you
(48:06):
are in a dark tunnel and youcan't find your way out and
someone has to throw down theline.
And that's the validation,step-by-step to make it all the
way up through the tunnel.
And then I decided I loved thecoaching practice so much that I
(48:26):
wanted to do it.
I've had advocacy in my DNAsince I was in elementary school
, yeah, and obviously reallyhoned those skills advocating
for my daughter.
And I decided I wanted to dothat and I was.
(48:48):
So I was trained here through alocal program.
It was a 15 week program.
We had 12 people and we learneda concept of co-active coaching
, which is really a brilliantway to hold space for someone
and let them kind of put outthere what they want to look at.
(49:10):
And then we turn it all the wayaround and I ask a lot of
powerful questions that helpelicit a ton of awareness,
because really, the awareness isthe gateway to change.
Yeah, you know, this is notadvice.
Everybody's situation isdifferent in terms of their
(49:31):
level of awareness, and thatcould be just their
understanding of the situationor how they're looking at it.
Or you know something that'sabout themselves that's causing
them to have a barrier.
Could be just theirunderstanding of the situation
or how they're looking at it, oryou know something that's about
themselves that's causing themto have a barrier.
Um, and you know, once there'sawareness, you can then do
things like build tools right orstart to really move forward.
(49:52):
Um, but I love the process, yesand um, so I decided I was
going to do that and I built acoaching practice and I'm still
coaching.
I have my own website, and it'sfor narcissistic abuse and toxic
relationships.
I don't diagnose narcissism,obviously, that is not my lane
(50:16):
but you can always look atbehaviors and patterns, yeah,
and know what you're dealingwith.
Yeah, and that could be aromantic relationship, it could
be a familial relationship, itcould be a work relationship.
You know a manager or even afriend, yeah, and when you start
(50:39):
feeling things in your bodythat make you uncomfortable,
those are signals to you thatyou might want to stop and
really become aware of it.
Yeah, you know, and also tounderstand your part.
Yeah, because what I brought toit was I'm in a people, please,
mm-hmm, and I have high empathy.
So because of that, a toxicperson can just drain me.
(51:04):
Right, they're just energyvampires, and so I have to know
how to protect my energy forgood.
Yeah, for the highest use.
But I really feel like itdoesn't drain me to do this with
(51:24):
clients.
It actually empowers me.
Yeah, because I'm still gettingthe.
Actually, I'm writing a blogright now called the Upside Down
World.
Yeah, so when you're in theserelationships relationships
especially when your kids arestill in them it feels like you
live in an upside down world,like it's not, it's it's.
(51:44):
It's like you've capsized andyou don't know what normal is
anymore and you're looking atpeople like, okay, that looks
normal.
I wonder if they would thinkthis looks normal.
Can you do you see this, guys?
Does this look normal?
I also call it like theStranger Things portal.
Yeah, there's a show, strangerThings, and it was like the
(52:04):
normal little life here and thereally weird portal you'd go
through to see horror.
Yeah, and you're like doesanybody else see this, and so to
get yourself out of that is istake some work and some practice
, and so I still work on thosethings.
(52:26):
Like I'm feeling upside downsometimes, yeah, and I know what
I need to do when I'm feelingupside down.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yeah.
So that's I just gave you a lot.
I know I love it and thank youso much for being so brave, and
you know just so like I mean it.
It takes so much courage to toopen up and to share your story,
cause, even though you lived it, um, you know, talking about it
(52:54):
is something totally different.
Um, I guess my question to you,though, would be, when you were
going through it, what you know?
Cause if someone's listening tothis and they're like, holy
shit, she just said my life,like this is exactly what I'm
going through, um, you knowwhich, uh, you know, sadly,
there are people that will be,you know they're going to hear
(53:16):
this, and it's going to triggerthoughts of like Holy crap,
that's what I'm going through.
What do you wish people wouldhave done for you?
Like if you had a magic wandand you and you unfortunately
had to go back through thissituation.
Like, what do you wish thatpeople would have said to you or
done to you?
Cause I know like or done foryou, not to you, sorry, yeah,
(53:38):
because I know that you know,sometimes people wouldn't.
You know, I think, again,trying to normalize this, when
people start talking about, likeHoly crap, my husband won't let
you know, like I'm only allowedso much money, or oh, I'm only
allowed this, and that you knowpeople, their first instinct is,
like why the hell do you stay?
Then, like, what do you mean?
Like what do you mean?
You have a budget, you know,and those things are not helpful
(53:59):
.
Those are full of judgment.
Those are, you know, statementsof people that are not.
They're not putting themselvesin that situation Right, and I
know I've been.
You know, like I mean, I'vedone that before where I'm like
why would, why would you evenstay?
We all have.
But then, the further that I'vegone through this process and,
like, talked with people andlistened to people and I hear
(54:19):
their stories and, you know,just gone on a self-healing
journey myself, I realized thatwho am I to judge a situation
like that?
I've never been in it.
I don't know what I would do.
You know, you hear so-and-socheated and you know they stayed
.
Well, why would they stay?
Why, you know, why wouldn't youjust leave?
Well, you don't know, everyone'ssituation is different, and so
for me, I would think that thebest thing for someone going
(54:43):
through this is to have a friendthat is going to listen and
offer a safe space, but notjudge and not go.
Okay, seriously, you've told methis story 17 times now.
Like, when are you going toleave?
Like, oh, I hear that all thetime from my clients, yeah, yeah
.
So I just feel like that wouldnot be helpful.
So I guess my question to youis what would be helpful to
(55:05):
someone you know, maybesomeone's listening to this and
they're not dealing with this,but they know a friend that's
dealing with it.
How could they help them?
Speaker 2 (55:12):
That's a great question, um, and I can't think
of the exact Ted Lasso line, butit's a Ted Lasso line about
curiosity over judgment.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Oh, I like that.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
So I think curiosity is your friend and really, when
you're so severely gaslit, youstop believing yourself, like
you have to look to other people, like you look outward to see
if they believe, because you'renot sure you do anymore.
(55:46):
And so to tell someone Ibelieve you and then say, can I
ask you some questions, somequestions.
You know how does this feel foryou, how do you experience this
?
And really actively listen,because when you really and
(56:06):
that's what coaches are trainedto do and everyone's heard the
words actively listen, but itreally is a practice because
you'll hear things and then, byhearing them, you can say
something like okay, I heard yousay this.
Can you tell me more about that?
(56:27):
Yeah, can you tell me moreabout how you have responded to
that?
What are your emotions aroundthat?
It leads you to other questionsto allow them to feel safe
enough to continue to share,because they will bottle up at
(56:48):
the first sign of judgment ormisunderstanding or not being.
And curiosity is your friend,yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Yeah, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you takingtime out and you know just being
so brave and authentic and youknow just sharing your story.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
So thank you, thanks for asking.
I appreciate it too.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yeah, of course, of course, and hopefully we can
have you um on another time andyou can tell us all about your
practice.
Oh yeah, that'd be, andhopefully we can have you um on
another time and you can tell usall about your practice.
I love that you've taken thishorrible situation that you went
through and turned it intosomething positive, in a way
that you're able to help othersyou know that are going through
this.
Speaker 2 (57:32):
Absolutely.
It's just a.
It's a gift to me too, yeah, sothanks so much for for all of
your great questions and yourspace that you offered me, of
course, Of course.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
Thank you so much and we will see you next time.
On thrive and decide Soundsgreat.
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive
and Decide.
This week, we are joined byJamie, who is going to share her
story.
You know, she's very graciouslydecided that she will share her
story, and what I love about itis that you know she dealt with
a situation that I think a lotof people out there are dealing
(00:23):
with, and you know, I justreally wanted her to come on and
talk about, you know, the toxic, narcissistic relationships she
went through, things she did to, you know, get through it and
to heal.
She now is, you know, thrivingand doing so much better, and so
I just really wanted her tocome on share her story so that
anyone out there listening thatmaybe is stuck in a relationship
(00:45):
like this.
You know you're not alone Uh,you're not the only person, um,
and there's no reason to feelshame or anything with this
relationship.
So, jamie, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I really appreciate it.
You're welcome.
I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So, um, I guess just I don'tknow where you want to start,
but if you'd like to share, youknow kind of how you met and you
know your relationship and howit kind of developed and you
know, I I highly doubt that thenarcissistic things were coming
out when you were dating or elseyou wouldn't have married him,
or maybe you would have, I don'tknow.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think that, and there's really a
pre-story to that that I havefound is, I know I was really
conditioned as a young female topeople please, to man, please,
to be that person that would bethe most attractive in every way
(01:41):
, which a lot of the times wasto not use my voice and to
shrink and just be small.
I watched my mother do it, Iwatched my three sisters do it,
and that was just the norm atthe time.
Yeah, my parents being the lastof four girls, my parents
(02:06):
weren't really engaged with atleast two of us and I get that
now because I couldn't have hadfour children, but it was my
sister just next to me in age.
We were kind of left alone alot, and all they really wanted
was for us to get married to agood provider.
(02:27):
Now my dad wanted us to go tocollege but, more importantly,
to marry a man that could handlethe finances, because the
message was we probably couldn'tdo that or do it as best we
could, and so that just kind ofbecame the goal for us.
We thought that was the end all, and so they really liked my
(02:52):
ex-husband.
I had dated other people thathad different religions and they
weren't okay with that.
They are very kind ofevangelical Christian people my
dad's no longer here but verykind of like this is the only
way and they need to be whiteAnglo-Saxon.
(03:15):
You know, that's my parents.
And so they thought he was great.
Plus, he owned his own business.
They thought he was going to bea really good provider.
So I'm like I guess I found itright.
I guess I found it, yeah.
And then you know, fast forward.
There were a lot of red flags inthe relationship and I won't go
into all of them, but lookingback now and I don't blame
(03:38):
myself, no, I think that this isso normal from talking to so
many people, and I want tonormalize it because when you
don't, it feels shameful.
And so we, especially women inthe society, have been
conditioned to believe thingsand to just go with the flow and
(04:01):
try to please, and that's whatI was doing.
So every time something didhappen and he would look at me
like I was weird and say you'rejust overreacting.
You know why are you soinsecure?
Well, I know now that wascovering for probably the other
things he was doing with otherwomen at the time, and I always
(04:22):
had those feelings the time, andI always had those feelings and
he was always kind of making mefeel jealous and it was hard,
but he made me feel like I wascrazy.
Yeah, so anyway, we got marriedand literally the honeymoon was
over the day we got back fromthe honeymoon, literally and
(04:42):
figuratively, because he was aperson that didn't use credit
cards.
A plus for that was there wasnever debt, right, that's good,
right.
But this was extreme.
And so I had a credit card inmy name and I had put our what?
Some of our wedding expenses onit.
So I came home and there was abill for $1,600.
(05:04):
He opened it and I he flew intosuch a rage and picked up a
kitchen chair and threw itacross the room and it
splintered into like five or sixpieces.
Wow, and I remember thinking Inever want to see this behavior
again.
I never want to see this.
It's just so scary.
(05:26):
And so he took my credit cardand he put me on a budget and I
had to start giving him all ofmy paychecks.
And I did that because Ithought he was taking care of me
, right.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Because you had been conditioned that that's what the
man does.
You give them the money and heknows what's best for us.
Yep, so he's going to you know,well, here's your money for
this, but oh no, you can't dothat Like.
That's how we were conditioned.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Absolutely, ugh yeah.
And so I mean I hardly hadenough money to buy my own lunch
, and every time I would buygroceries, he's like, well,
you're, you're not shopping atthe right places, this is too
much money.
I mean it was hypercritical.
Um, so uh, that was happening.
And then we had our first child, um, and I realized very
(06:19):
quickly there that I was goingto be the one doing the labor.
Well, it's women's work, somany women do.
I had an emergency C-sectionand the day I got home it was
hard for me to get out of bedstill, and so he slept with me
and the baby was there, and whenshe started crying he got mad
at me because he had to go towork, and so he left and went to
(06:41):
another room and I really justneeded him to help get the baby
to me because of my incision.
So there were things like that,you know, in the marriage and
the control increased.
(07:03):
And so I didn't have thislanguage back then, but it was
really financial abuse.
I stayed at home with the kids.
I had my second child they wereabout two and a half years
apart.
I stayed at home until my well.
I worked part-time after mydaughter was born and then I
stopped and I stayed at homeuntil my son went to first grade
and then I was very fortunate.
I knew I needed to work becauseI needed money, went to first
(07:25):
grade and then I was veryfortunate.
I knew I needed to work becauseI needed money.
There was never enough moneyfor me to buy groceries.
I often would be in a grocerystore in a wealthy community
putting groceries back, saying Ican't, I need to take off these
four things because I didn'thave the money to pay for it,
because he would always give mecash, wow.
(07:46):
So it's kind of doing like theprice is right all through the
grocery store.
Right, because it was reallyembarrassing.
Yeah, toting two small childrenaround saying I can't buy this,
I can't buy that, yeah.
So I'm like I can't do thisanymore and I started to become
the queen of workarounds, whichis good and bad.
Yeah, because when you are, youare enabling that person to
(08:10):
continue and increase theabusive behavior, mm-hmm.
So I knew by working I couldpay for my children's clothing,
groceries, I paid for theirextracurricular activities, any
kind of need that they have Iwas usually able to pay for.
(08:30):
And they were absolutely afraidto go to their father to ask
for money.
And I had them saying thingslike Dad will never let me get
another pair of shoes.
And I'm like, well, okay.
And so, in order to protectthem, I said we'll do this
(08:51):
together, right Again, enablinghim, yeah, but I don't blame
myself.
I was protecting my kids fromsome harshness and for some
trouble, you know, from sometrouble.
My daughter was diagnosed withautism.
I knew that, you know,something was up when she turned
around six and he was just indenial about everything.
(09:15):
Of course I wanted to dotherapies.
I was, you know, my head justwas down and trying to
understand what autism was andwhat therapies to do.
And he wouldn't pay for therapy.
He didn't think it wasnecessary.
So, again, I was the queen ofworkarounds.
(09:36):
I went down to the FranklinCounty Developmental
Disabilities Board and theyapproved her for a community
waiver for $5,000.
So now I had access to $5,000every year to do therapies and I
would get a list of providersand I would have to call them
(09:58):
and see if you know that wouldwork.
Yeah, so I ended up driving allover the city because it was a
list I had to work on, work from.
So that was really.
I mean, did I want to leave inmy marriage all the time?
Um, but I had my kids and I.
(10:21):
I I was like I'm trying to keepthis family intact.
I mean it was never intact.
But I was trying to keep itlooking that way, yeah, and all
the time I would feel likepeople couldn't find out about,
like if people saw what's goingon in here, I think they would
think that was awful.
But I never wanted to believeit because If I started to
(10:45):
really believe it, I then wouldbe unable to stop seeing it and
that would lead to somethingthat I didn't want in terms of
our marriage and separation.
So I didn't look at it.
Yeah, so a lot of financialabuse.
(11:05):
My ex-husband was actuallydiagnosed with narcissistic
personality disorder by one ofour therapists, but and another
therapist also also handed me anarticle about narcissism, and
so this one therapist said I, Ican't help you because your
(11:28):
husband actually doesn't knowhow to love you.
It's, it's part of this.
You know disorder, yeah, andI'm like of this.
You know disorder, yeah, andI'm like I didn't.
At that point I was 47.
(11:51):
I had become pregnantunexpectedly, oh wow, and I went
into a major depressive episode.
Yeah, because all the things Iwas trying to hold together just
collapsed, like my house ofcards just fell to the ground,
yeah, and I couldn't move and Ithought I cannot do it.
I cannot do this.
I cannot have another child.
I cannot be with him.
I was just a wreck.
(12:12):
Yeah, my sisters came around tosupport me.
My ex-husband thought it wascrazy and wanted to
institutionalize me.
What he?
That's what he told ourtherapist Wow, so, um, he was
obviously not helpful, right.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Cause, clearly, you're in this, like this crazy
situation where you know youweren't trying to get pregnant
and now you are, and now all thethings that you've been doing
to protect your kids into, like,you know, just one more day.
Just one more day.
You know, just like, just keepswimming, just keep swimming,
I'm going to get there.
(12:51):
And then, all you know, thishappens and it just blows your
world up and what you need iswhat your sisters were giving
you, which was the love andsupport and the help, and what
he was giving you was nothelpful at all by, you know,
making you feel crazy, makingyou sound crazy, talking about
institutionalizing you insteadof being like, wow, yeah, this
(13:13):
is not what we planned, but like, what, what can we do together?
How can I help you, you know,to get through this Right.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
There's none of that.
I mean even told my sisterswhat's wrong with her.
Why is she acting like this?
You know, and I was it wasmajor depressive disorders.
It was the scariest thing I'veever gone through.
Yeah, I felt like I was nevergoing to get better and it just
(13:43):
so happened.
You know, I'm 47.
So they did an ultrasound andfound that the egg never did
implant.
Oh okay, and so I had to have aDNC.
The egg never did implant, ohokay, and so I had to have a DNC
.
Um, and I was obviouslyincredibly relieved I hate to
(14:05):
say that, but that's just whereI was at the time Um, and um,
and I think that's okay, likethat's.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Another thing that I would like to make sure is
normalized is that there arethings that people have to make
a decision about and you makethe best decision that you can
with all of the details that youhave at that moment.
Yeah, and that's it, and you dowhat's best for you.
Um, so I think that's anotherthing that I would really like
to normalize is just that don'tfeel the shame around what you
(14:34):
did to take care of you and yourbody and your family, and it's
not like it was a viablepregnancy anyway.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah, it wasn't.
I mean, it wasn't the.
Actually it had already passed,but they needed to do this for
medical reasons, for sure.
Which is where we are in ourcountry right now is backwards,
right, but I would have died ifI didn't have that Exactly, or
go on septic or something.
So anyway, so that was done,but he didn't come to the DNC
(15:06):
with me.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Oh, I hope your sister or somebody did.
My sister did, okay, good.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And it was so much better to have her there.
Yeah, it was so much better tohave her there, yeah, so you
know, then there was a lot ofjust psychological and emotional
abuse.
I didn't have those words backthen, but even my children, we
(15:34):
would be gaslit so much and theywould say why does dad do that?
Why does he always say thatdidn't happen, or I didn't say
that, or you know, just denyingour reality.
And again, we didn't know thatword.
But that's what was happeningall of the time.
Yeah, um, after I had thatmiscarriage, um, I decided to go
(15:58):
back into therapy and I hadbeen in and out of therapy for
years and, um, I decided that Iwas going to start using my
voice more good, and so I wouldstart saying no to things I
(16:18):
would.
His family was felt very toxicto me and I would take my own
car so I could leave when Iwanted to leave.
I started to do things to takecare of myself, but what I
(16:40):
didn't see happening was thegrooming of my children, you
know, in terms of how he wastreating me.
And later in the marriage,things started to get worse,
because I was starting to be myown person and realizing that I
abandoned some really corevalues when I was married to him
.
Uh, in terms of theconversation in my house about
(17:00):
other people and other peoplegroups, um, just the statements
that were racist andmisogynistic, yeah, I allowed, I
just put my head down and Istarted realizing that, like I
can't do this, yeah, I can't doit.
He didn't like that.
(17:23):
I was coming out of my littlebox.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
That was a big problem, and so things started
to get worse, as my husband, myhusband, god, it's such a habit
to say, like my husband, likewhen, especially when you go
back to like, share your story,because you almost go back to
that time and that's that's howyou knew them.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Right, well, I actually was going to say my son
.
That's why it was even weirder.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
And that's okay.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, yeah, um, he and I had a very close
relationship and you know hewould say things to me like Mom,
I'm so glad to have you,because I don't know if Dad's
ever really loved me or beenproud of me, and that's soul
crushing.
It was soul crushing, but Ididn't explore it with him.
(18:16):
It's one of my major regrets.
I didn't get curious.
I would say things like oh, Iknow he does.
You know I mean I would try toreinforce that he did and he
just acted in different ways.
And he even my son, even to me.
I started to, my depressionstarted to increase again and my
(18:40):
ex-husband was really again notpaying any attention to me
because he thought it was soawful and weird and he would
always say things like you'renot praying enough, you don't
have a good relationship withGod.
So the spiritual stuff wasalways a thing.
I was never good enough.
(19:00):
And so my son came to me and hesaid, mom, what's wrong?
And I said I'll be okay.
I think I just my depression isincreasing.
And he said, mom, you know youcan't talk to dad about that,
but you can talk to me aboutthat.
And the next day he came homewith flowers for me.
(19:22):
Now, I've never received flowersin my marriage, never received
a card, even though I asked timeand time again.
There was nothing he put intothe marriage and I hate to sound
so extreme, but I really have ahard time recounting things.
Yeah, yeah, there was one timewhen he was well, he was in a
(19:45):
Bible study because he was avery godly man.
Oh, clearly, yeah, yeah, and alot of those men would just
really prop each other up.
So they just decided to have achallenge, which now is so
hilarious to me.
Their challenge was to buytheir wife, their wives, flowers
on Valentine's day.
I'm like you really need achallenge.
(20:08):
That's the challenge.
Wow, right, wow.
So I got flowers and I'm likeyou know what's this?
And he said, well, it was achallenge.
I'm like mm-hmm.
But they were flowers thatweren't wrapped in anything,
they were just kind of flowers.
They weren't like there was nocellophane or bows and they
(20:30):
looked a little wilty.
So the next day they werecompletely dead and I said, you
know, look at these.
I said you might want to go getyour money back, yeah, and he's
like, oh, yeah, he took them,and that was it.
Like I didn't get new flowers,that was it.
(20:51):
So even you were calling a thingyeah, was never really a thing.
So you know, I could.
You know, marriages like thisare like really small and large
paper cuts until you're bleedingall over the place.
Yeah, you know, I could.
(21:14):
I could tell you things thathappened all of the time and
you'd be pretty shocked.
Um one time we were drivingacross the country and we
stopped at a place so I couldlook at some healthier options
to eat, because I didn't wantfast food, right, and it was
(21:35):
kind of like a truck stop, butthey had a place where you could
buy some groceries, if thatmakes sense, yeah, so I'm
looking for things and, um,they're, I think, in the car, my
phone's in the car, and I comeout and they're gone and I was
so horrified and embarrassed andscared that I just I looked at
(21:59):
people and then I just kind ofwalked back in and pretended I
was looking for things.
I looked at people and then Ijust kind of walked back in and
pretended I was looking forthings and I kept looking out
and about 20 minutes later thecar pulls back up and I come out
.
I'm like what just happened,right?
And he's like, oh, don't beridiculous, we wanted to get our
(22:21):
stuff so we could get on theroad.
I said my phone was in this car.
Why didn't anyone come in andtell me no, nothing, I mean just
this kind of stuff.
But it's always like you'remaking too big of a deal out of
this.
Yeah, you know.
So when, towards the very end ofmy marriage, um, my sister was
(22:44):
in transition, so she lived withus for about four months and
she came to me after about fourmonths and said I can't live
here anymore.
I cannot see what they do toyou, how they treat you, because
then my kids were also gangingup on me.
(23:06):
It was like three against oneand mom's the scapegoat, um, and
so things are really heating up.
Um, the money.
You know, I remember I I cookedfive nights a week and and one
time I'd run out of money.
(23:26):
I was completely out by about,you know, seven days before the
month was over and I asked himfor some money and he said you
know, we haven't had enoughmeals at home for you to be out
of money.
And it was just all those cuts,right.
I mean, it was so hard.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Well, yeah, because you hear that and you, being the
person that you are, youinternalize that and you're like
, oh my God, I suck, like Ishould have, I should have
gotten more groceries, like youknow, I should have made this,
or I should have done that, like, and no, none of that is your
fault and I hope that you'verealized that now that you know,
(24:05):
like that is not, that's not onyou, that is a reflection of
him and his narcissisticbehavior Right, gaslighting the
shit out of you Right, andalthough I do, because I I mean
it's my business now I am, Imean my therapist like know more
than most of my colleaguesabout narcissism and I can
(24:28):
intellectually know that, but Istill suffer from the
gaslighting.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, it's still hard for me sometimes.
I mean I had to ask my sistersfor permission to buy things
when I left my marriage.
I couldn't do it alone.
Marriage, I couldn't do italone.
But the crescendo to all ofthis was my son was.
He was a senior, I think, andhe we had a little place out in
(25:00):
the country and my husband wouldgo there every weekend and we
used to do that, but my kidsreally wanted to stay at home,
for sure they're teenagers, yeah.
And so he would always go, hewould always go without us.
And one time, you know, I wasgoing to a pre-party for my
son's prom was senior year andyou know how they take pictures
and everything, and so I wasgetting ready to go.
It was a Friday night and I Iasked my ex-husband.
(25:22):
I said you know, are you ready?
And he's like I'm not going tothat, I'm like it's his senior
prom.
He's like yeah, I went, nothingto do with that.
And he left and I went on myown.
I've come to find out.
I think there was somebodyinvolved with him and even my
son said do you think dad'shaving an affair?
Said, do you think dad's havingan affair?
Of course I'm like, oh no, Ithink he was.
(25:43):
Like I could look back throughsome records and I have some,
but I don't really even careabout that part, right?
Um, so I had planned my son'ssenior spring break with some of
his buddies.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It was the first time I wasn't with my daughter and I
love my daughter so much withmy daughter and I love my
daughter so much, but it couldbe stressful, of course, um,
anytime you have a child withspecial needs, it is, and that
is another thing.
We've found a lot of thingsthat we need to normalize here,
(26:18):
but it is normal to feeloverwhelmed and sadly, we as
moms and as women, we feel shameif we feel overwhelmed at
having to take care of our child.
But guess what?
It's normal, it's a hundredpercent normal.
I mean, my kids don't havespecial needs and I still get
overwhelmed where I'm like, ohdear God, like I just need to
(26:39):
run away, be in a hotel bymyself, oh my gosh, Like I can't
.
This is just too much Right.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yes, but I was told that I was being ridiculous.
Of course you were, and that Iwas weak.
Yeah, and you know, just again,you're not praying hard enough.
So and I knew being with thoseboys would be really hard on her
.
So I'm like we got on vacation.
It was the first morning.
We're in a house with a pool.
(27:05):
I stepped out back with a cupof coffee.
I'm like, oh, I was ready tojust relax.
I sat down, he's on the phone,he gets off the phone, he looks
at me and he says what are wedoing?
I said I'm just having mycoffee and he said, no, I mean,
I want a wife that agrees withme politically and theologically
(27:28):
and this marriage is notsustainable for 20 plus years.
And I just again, that was thelast Jenga piece you know it was
like that was the last Jengapiece, you know it was like
tumbled to the ground.
Yeah, I was out.
Now, what he meant by those twothings was this is 2016.
(27:53):
And I was not going to vote forDonald Trump yeah, a personal
decision because of how hetreated women and folks with
disabilities.
Yep, so I was out and he wasvery angry at me for that and
embarrassed Because I would postthings about, you know, voting
for Hillary Clinton, right, andhe was so embarrassed by that.
(28:19):
And my nephew is gay and he wasgetting married and I was going
to go to the wedding and hesaid you should not go to that,
our children will not go to that, because you know, it was
sinful, of course, right, so Iwas going to go, and he was so
angry about those two thingsthat I started.
(28:43):
I really started to disassociate.
I think now that I understandwhat that means, I felt like
there was a I split, like therewas a woman inside me saying get
the hell out and start doingsomething.
And she was, and I felt theother woman, almost watching her
from above, a little bit Likewho are you?
(29:06):
And that was my shadow self.
That always helped me stay inthe situation and I know that
was a survival mechanism, right,yeah, just to dampen everything
, so I wouldn't leave.
And I just went forward, wentforward.
So I knew that we had money.
(29:30):
We had three houses.
I knew we had money.
Yeah, I never saw any of it,but I knew we had it.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Well no, you were overspending at the grocery
store.
Well, yeah, I was busy, that'swhy you didn't see it we were
having filet every night andcrab, of course, those lobster
tails crab legs.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
All that yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So I and I think this is also very normal for a lot
of women I never saw a financialaccount, never.
I never talked to a financialadvisor, I never signed a tax
return, I never saw anythingrelated to that and I thought he
(30:15):
was just taking care of me.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So again this is like several months before our
marriage ended he came to me andhe said you know you weren't
around and I needed somethingsigned to move some money.
And the bank says they don'tthink it's your signature
because I wrote your name, Isigned your name, so I need you
(30:39):
to talk to them on speaker withanother representative and tell
them that that's you.
And again, I had learned to usemy voice more and so I said
well, what do you mean?
I'm not around, I live with you, right, and it's not OK for you
to do that.
You can never sign my nameagain.
(31:00):
I'm really angry.
And again, he made very littleof it, of course, and so I had.
I was on a call with two banksand I said to him you know, if
they asked me if I signed it,I'm going to say no, but if they
asked me if I could, it's okayto move the money, I will say
yes.
And so they asked me if it wasokay to move the money and I
just said yes.
(31:21):
So I protected him.
Then, right, come to find out.
You know he's set up all thesefinancial accounts in my name
which I've never signed for, andI think he did that a lot, I
think, to protect his business.
You know there was any, youknow, so I get that.
But I all of the statementswere sent to his office with my
(31:42):
name on it, so he was openingthe mail and all of that.
So when we I'm like I'm done.
You know, we started talkingabout separating.
He sat me down and he said theonly way this will work is if
you take this much money anddon't get an attorney.
And I'm like what do you meanthe only way this will work?
(32:07):
Because I think it would beimportant for me to get an
attorney Right.
I don't know the full scope ofthings, I don't know what our
liabilities are, and he wasangry about that.
And I questioned him about theamount because I thought that
(32:29):
amount really doesn't seem likeit would be fair, right?
So then my kids were starting toadjust to the news and my son
came to me and asked me to go todinner.
He had just turned 18.
He was going to go off tocollege and he said to me at
(32:51):
dinner mom, I've seen thesettlement that dad's offering
you.
I don't know why he would see asettlement Right.
I mean he was just 17,.
Just turned 18.
Well, why would your child seethat?
And he said if you don't takethat and if you get an attorney,
I won't be able to talk to youuntil this is over.
(33:13):
Oh, and Sarah, I didn't believehim.
Yeah, you know, I'm like.
I'm like what are you talking?
Speaker 1 (33:23):
about.
Well, cause, you have to wonder, like who the hell like made
him think like that?
Or did his dad say, hey, yousee you, now that you've seen
this, like you know, if your momdoes this, like you can't talk
to her, or whatever, like heactually started to coercively
control my son and manipulatehim.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I'm sure he threatened him with not you know
many things Right.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Not paying for something, not doing something,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Not loving him anymore.
Yeah, and I was always the safeparent, so I just kept going.
I don't know what you'retalking about, honey, I will
always be here.
And he did it once again when Iwas in court.
Right after court, my sisterand I were in the car together
and he called and I had him onspeaker and he's like I know.
(34:17):
His father called him rightafter he left and so he said why
can't you just settle this?
Just take the offer.
Don't you think I want arelationship with my mother?
I'm like I said, honey, I don'tunderstand what you're saying.
You have a relationship with me, what are you talking about?
(34:38):
But he wouldn't go into it.
Yeah, so, um, anyway.
But he wouldn't go into it.
Yeah, so um, anyway.
I went through this and my songot angrier and angrier.
I mean, I saw him in fall whilehe was in college and by
christmas time he was reallypoisoned.
Yeah, um.
And when I found out what ourassets were, my ex was offering
(35:02):
me 8%.
Jesus, yeah, and full wellknowing I would be supporting
our daughter.
Right, she lives with me.
There's, you know, it's, it's,there's things associated with
that that I would always have topay for, and so it was a
(35:23):
two-year high conflict divorce.
My ex-husband would beintimidating during that time.
He would send me threateningmail.
He had put a gun in mydaughter's lunchbox and she came
(35:52):
home and opened it and ofcourse really freaked out For
sure and he's like you'reoverreacting.
I was just putting it there forstorage.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Right In her lunchbox .
In her lunchbox, I mean, that'swhere I store my stuff too, my
kids' lunchboxes.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, what?
Yeah, it was to intimidate me,of course, yeah, and so I got a
security person for a while.
That's when I found out aboutthis other woman that was living
at a place that he owned and,um, after I got one of those
properties, she left and went tolived at another place that he
(36:32):
had.
So you know, I'm like whatever,that means nothing to me, um.
So, um, then it was rightbefore trial, we were going to
go to trial and he was deposed.
And my attorney says to me laterI've never heard anyone say
this before in all of my time asa family law attorney, and she
(36:59):
did a lot of high conflictdivorce and she did a lot of
high conflict divorce.
So when he was being deposed,she asked him if he knew that he
was not supposed to come andtake checks to my front door
because I didn't have money andhe had to give me money every
month.
Yeah, so he would just comepeer in my windows, take the
(37:21):
check on it, and I was alwaysjust so anxious and scared.
And so he said, yeah, I'm awareof that.
And she.
He said, but she's stealing mymoney.
And she said did you saystealing?
And he said, yeah, she is, andI think right after that they
(37:45):
offered a different settlement.
I'm sure his attorney was likedude, you can't go on the record
.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
You can't say that.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
And if you say that to a judge, it's not going to go
well for you.
Yeah.
So we settled that weekend andI got about 40%.
I was going to say I hope formore than 8%.
Yeah, but it was funny as Iwould have settled for 30.
Yeah, but I think at that pointis Lori was like you want to,
(38:13):
if she's going to get 50, if youwalk in the courtroom, yeah.
And shortly after that my soncalled me and this is the sad,
saddest part of my story, themost confusing part of my story.
He told me that I had hurt hisfather so much.
(38:34):
His father was such a good manand he was not going to talk to
me anymore.
And it's been seven years.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Oh God, I'm so sorry, and you still haven't talked in
that entire seven years.
Oh.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
We emailed one time.
I mean I will say I still emailhim, I still text him, I still
send cards, I still text him, Istill send cards, I sent care
packages.
I will always be his mom, forsure, but he's still living with
his dad and now he's 25, fouryears out of college and I'm
(39:23):
sure it feels very beholden tohim.
Yeah, um, the one time heanswered my email was when I
wanted to say I wanted to buyhim a graduation gift and he
quickly said well, you can giveme money and you can Venmo me,
which, again, if you knownarcissism, it's.
Narcissists are so sly andstrategic and they build
(39:49):
narratives way before somethinghappens.
It's unbelievable.
Yeah, like they have thisplaybook of what they can do to
smear you and to make themselveslook like the victim.
Yeah, and so you know thenarrative was to smear you and
to make themselves look like thevictim.
Yeah, and so you know thenarrative was I was greedy, I
(40:16):
was cheating and I was a liar.
And actually I got threesettlement checks after that and
he would mail them to me and onon the envelope it would be
addressed to the dragon deviland on the notes section of the
check it would say liar cheatthief, and I would go to the
bank and deposit those for sure,and they would just look at me
(40:38):
like I'm sorry.
But the last one was reallyawful because it said all the
things and then there was apost-it note on it that said I
hope this was worth losing yourson over.
He just outed himself.
I mean, you know there'ssomething you may have heard
(40:58):
called parental alienation.
Yeah, there's something you mayhave heard called parental
alienation.
Yeah, no-transcript, but it'sreally just a set of behaviors
to coercively control your child.
(41:19):
Yeah, to not be with the lovingparent.
You'll always see the lovingparent on the rejection side and
the toxic parent on thealienating side.
Yeah, and there's differentdegrees of it.
This is pretty severe parentalalienation.
Yeah, different degrees of it.
(41:44):
This is pretty severe parentalalienation.
And now you know he has his ownagency.
I know that People talk aboutthat.
So I also know that there's aton of pathology and psychology
here for my son, because I heardit when he was growing up.
You know I heard how much hewanted a relationship with his
father and you know I thinkthere's a real attachment style
(42:10):
issue for my son and you know hewould never seek therapy.
His father thinks it'sridiculous to go to therapy.
Oh of course, such a waste ofmoney.
Yeah, so that's what's going onfor me, and my daughter still
lives with me, she's 27.
And you know, for a while itwas really hard for her to go
(42:37):
back into that environment andthen come home, because every
time she did I felt like sheneeded to go through a car wash
because of the toxins that wouldattach to her yeah, it's like
you needed to sage her.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Like the second, she walked in the door right and she
was struggling.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
I mean, autism helped her in the way that she has
very black and white thinking.
So she's like what you'resaying about your mom, my mom is
not.
So not true.
Yeah, like my mom is this, andso it helped her kind of go.
I'm not believing thatnarrative, but she still was
(43:15):
pulled in and so she's now tothe point where you know,
working with a therapist, thatshe understands what boundaries
are, she knows how to protectherself Things don't happen
nearly as much as they do butshe doesn't have a relationship
with her brother Because, youknow, her father would say, well
(43:40):
, you talk about your mother andhe doesn't want to hear about
that.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, so it's so heartbreaking and it's
heartbreaking to know that yourex-husband has so much hate
inside of him and so muchnarcissism inside of him that he
would validate and make it beokay that your son would not
(44:13):
talk to you Like it's.
It's horrible and it'sheartbreaking and I'm so sorry
that that's what you're goingthrough.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, I've been through a lot of therapy.
Yeah, I mean, for a while Ineeded to see her twice a week.
Yeah, I was a wreck, and youknow, I know.
Now, when I am just, I justneed to really go cry, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
When I think, you know, I was talking with Chris,
who's a mutual friend of ours.
I was talking with her theother day and I said you know,
that's one of the things thatyou know I really want women to,
to understand and to normalizeagain.
We're normalizing.
It's okay.
If you feel sad, throw yourselfthe damn pity party, have the
(45:05):
pity party, eat all the thingsthat make you feel good, cry it
out, grab the Ben and Jerry's,watch the shit television.
Whatever it is that you need todo to throw that pity party.
Don't shove down the feelings.
Don't say, oh, I shouldn't, Idon't have time to cry, nope,
you do.
No, take that day, feel all thefeelings, because then the next
(45:28):
day You're going to wake up andyou're going to feel Okay, now
I can, I can put my big girlpanties on and I can face this
day and and that's okay, thatyou know.
And maybe in the beginning youthrow those petty parties.
You know a couple of times aweek, or you know a few times a
month or whatever, and that'sokay and you know.
But you, just you have to honorthose feelings, cry it out and
(45:51):
move on.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yes, and it doesn't mean that you're weak.
No, it actually means you haveto allow your human body to have
what it needs, and so emotionsare things that should be
processed all the way out ofyour body, like through your arm
even, and that's why journalingis helpful, because it comes
(46:12):
out through your arm, right.
But crying, I mean, we werebuilt to cry for reasons and
it's to let all of that out, andso I know the way I feel, my
body when I need to cry, and alot of times I will listen to a
soundtrack that I've developedso I can playlist and I'll tune
into it, yeah.
(46:32):
Or I'll take a nap, yeah, youknow, and it's really helpful.
I know I'm a really strongperson.
I'm also on depression meds Imean my, and that's also in my
(46:59):
genetic profile, yeah.
So I don't, I'm okay with that.
I know people, for many validreasons, don't want to do that,
but for me it really works.
But I couldn't even receivetherapy until I was on the
antidepressant.
I couldn't even receive therapyuntil I was on the
(47:20):
antidepressant.
It was so, it was so.
I was so below the bottom, andso now that I'm not, I can
receive things and I can takesomething so hard and make
something out of it and that'swhat I.
I had a coach for a while whounderstood, understood
(47:41):
narcissistic abuse and it washugely helpful, especially for
the validation, because whenyou're gaslit for so long, you
lose the ability toself-validate and you
desperately need a validatingcommunity.
And you desperately need avalidating community.
I've seen it with each of myclients and it's almost like you
(48:06):
are in a dark tunnel and youcan't find your way out and
someone has to throw down theline.
And that's the validation,step-by-step to make it all the
way up through the tunnel.
And then I decided I loved thecoaching practice so much that I
(48:26):
wanted to do it.
I've had advocacy in my DNAsince I was in elementary school
, yeah, and obviously reallyhoned those skills advocating
for my daughter.
And I decided I wanted to dothat and I was.
(48:48):
So I was trained here through alocal program.
It was a 15 week program.
We had 12 people and we learneda concept of co-active coaching
, which is really a brilliantway to hold space for someone
and let them kind of put outthere what they want to look at.
(49:10):
And then we turn it all the wayaround and I ask a lot of
powerful questions that helpelicit a ton of awareness,
because really, the awareness isthe gateway to change.
Yeah, you know, this is notadvice.
Everybody's situation isdifferent in terms of their
(49:31):
level of awareness, and thatcould be just their
understanding of the situationor how they're looking at it.
Or you know something that'sabout themselves that's causing
them to have a barrier.
Could be just theirunderstanding of the situation
or how they're looking at it, oryou know something that's about
themselves that's causing themto have a barrier.
Um, and you know, once there'sawareness, you can then do
things like build tools right orstart to really move forward.
(49:52):
Um, but I love the process, yesand um, so I decided I was
going to do that and I built acoaching practice and I'm still
coaching.
I have my own website, and it'sfor narcissistic abuse and toxic
relationships.
I don't diagnose narcissism,obviously, that is not my lane
(50:16):
but you can always look atbehaviors and patterns, yeah,
and know what you're dealingwith.
Yeah, and that could be aromantic relationship, it could
be a familial relationship, itcould be a work relationship.
You know a manager or even afriend, yeah, and when you start
(50:39):
feeling things in your bodythat make you uncomfortable,
those are signals to you thatyou might want to stop and
really become aware of it.
Yeah, you know, and also tounderstand your part.
Yeah, because what I brought toit was I'm in a people, please,
mm-hmm, and I have high empathy.
So because of that, a toxicperson can just drain me.
(51:04):
Right, they're just energyvampires, and so I have to know
how to protect my energy forgood.
Yeah, for the highest use.
But I really feel like itdoesn't drain me to do this with
(51:24):
clients.
It actually empowers me.
Yeah, because I'm still gettingthe.
Actually, I'm writing a blogright now called the Upside Down
World.
Yeah, so when you're in theserelationships relationships
especially when your kids arestill in them it feels like you
live in an upside down world,like it's not, it's it's.
(51:44):
It's like you've capsized andyou don't know what normal is
anymore and you're looking atpeople like, okay, that looks
normal.
I wonder if they would thinkthis looks normal.
Can you do you see this, guys?
Does this look normal?
I also call it like theStranger Things portal.
Yeah, there's a show, strangerThings, and it was like the
(52:04):
normal little life here and thereally weird portal you'd go
through to see horror.
Yeah, and you're like doesanybody else see this, and so to
get yourself out of that is istake some work and some practice
, and so I still work on thosethings.
(52:26):
Like I'm feeling upside downsometimes, yeah, and I know what
I need to do when I'm feelingupside down.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yeah.
So that's I just gave you a lot.
I know I love it and thank youso much for being so brave, and
you know just so like I mean it.
It takes so much courage to toopen up and to share your story,
cause, even though you lived it, um, you know, talking about it
(52:54):
is something totally different.
Um, I guess my question to you,though, would be, when you were
going through it, what you know?
Cause if someone's listening tothis and they're like, holy
shit, she just said my life,like this is exactly what I'm
going through, um, you knowwhich, uh, you know, sadly,
there are people that will be,you know they're going to hear
(53:16):
this, and it's going to triggerthoughts of like Holy crap,
that's what I'm going through.
What do you wish people wouldhave done for you?
Like if you had a magic wandand you and you unfortunately
had to go back through thissituation.
Like, what do you wish thatpeople would have said to you or
done to you?
Cause I know like or done foryou, not to you, sorry, yeah,
(53:38):
because I know that you know,sometimes people wouldn't.
You know, I think, again,trying to normalize this, when
people start talking about, likeHoly crap, my husband won't let
you know, like I'm only allowedso much money, or oh, I'm only
allowed this, and that you knowpeople, their first instinct is,
like why the hell do you stay?
Then, like, what do you mean?
Like what do you mean?
You have a budget, you know,and those things are not helpful
(53:59):
.
Those are full of judgment.
Those are, you know, statementsof people that are not.
They're not putting themselvesin that situation Right, and I
know I've been.
You know, like I mean, I'vedone that before where I'm like
why would, why would you evenstay?
We all have.
But then, the further that I'vegone through this process and,
like, talked with people andlistened to people and I hear
(54:19):
their stories and, you know,just gone on a self-healing
journey myself, I realized thatwho am I to judge a situation
like that?
I've never been in it.
I don't know what I would do.
You know, you hear so-and-socheated and you know they stayed
.
Well, why would they stay?
Why, you know, why wouldn't youjust leave?
Well, you don't know, everyone'ssituation is different, and so
for me, I would think that thebest thing for someone going
(54:43):
through this is to have a friendthat is going to listen and
offer a safe space, but notjudge and not go.
Okay, seriously, you've told methis story 17 times now.
Like, when are you going toleave?
Like, oh, I hear that all thetime from my clients, yeah, yeah
.
So I just feel like that wouldnot be helpful.
So I guess my question to youis what would be helpful to
(55:05):
someone you know, maybesomeone's listening to this and
they're not dealing with this,but they know a friend that's
dealing with it.
How could they help them?
Speaker 2 (55:12):
That's a great question, um, and I can't think
of the exact Ted Lasso line, butit's a Ted Lasso line about
curiosity over judgment.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Oh, I like that.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
So I think curiosity is your friend and really, when
you're so severely gaslit, youstop believing yourself, like
you have to look to other people, like you look outward to see
if they believe, because you'renot sure you do anymore.
(55:46):
And so to tell someone Ibelieve you and then say, can I
ask you some questions, somequestions.
You know how does this feel foryou, how do you experience this
?
And really actively listen,because when you really and
(56:06):
that's what coaches are trainedto do and everyone's heard the
words actively listen, but itreally is a practice because
you'll hear things and then, byhearing them, you can say
something like okay, I heard yousay this.
Can you tell me more about that?
(56:27):
Yeah, can you tell me moreabout how you have responded to
that?
What are your emotions aroundthat?
It leads you to other questionsto allow them to feel safe
enough to continue to share,because they will bottle up at
(56:48):
the first sign of judgment ormisunderstanding or not being.
And curiosity is your friend,yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Yeah, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you takingtime out and you know just being
so brave and authentic and youknow just sharing your story.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
So thank you, thanks for asking.
I appreciate it too.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yeah, of course, of course, and hopefully we can
have you um on another time andyou can tell us all about your
practice.
Oh yeah, that'd be, andhopefully we can have you um on
another time and you can tell usall about your practice.
I love that you've taken thishorrible situation that you went
through and turned it intosomething positive, in a way
that you're able to help othersyou know that are going through
this.
Speaker 2 (57:32):
Absolutely.
It's just a.
It's a gift to me too, yeah, sothanks so much for for all of
your great questions and yourspace that you offered me, of
course, Of course.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
Thank you so much and we will see you next time.
On thrive and decide Soundsgreat.
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