March 15, 2025 • 51 mins
Divorce and religious faith often seem at odds, creating painful dilemmas for people of faith facing the end of their marriages. What happens when the very community meant to provide comfort becomes a source of judgment? Where can spirituality and personal wellbeing intersect when relationships break down?
Two female ministers join us for a remarkably honest conversation about navigating divorce within church communities. Both have personally experienced divorce while serving as spiritual leaders, giving them unique insight into both sides of this complex issue. They challenge traditional interpretations of scripture that have been weaponized against people ending marriages, explaining how biblical teachings on divorce actually reflected concern for women's vulnerability in ancient patriarchal societies—not a divine mandate to remain in unhealthy relationships at all costs.
The ministers share their approaches to counseling couples in crisis, emphasizing safety first, followed by exploring whether restoration is possible, and supporting whatever path forward best serves everyone involved. They reveal the painful reality of well-meaning but harmful religious responses like "Have you tried loving him like Jesus would?" and contrast these with truly supportive approaches that honor grief while affirming worth.
Perhaps most powerfully, they offer liberation from religious shame: "Getting a divorce is not sinful. It does not make you unworthy in the eyes of God. It does not mean you can't be a leader, whether in church or anywhere else." For anyone struggling with reconciling faith and divorce, they suggest finding what nourishes your spirit and leaving behind interpretations that shame or diminish you—whether that means finding a new congregation or staying where you are while disregarding unhelpful messages.
Listen now to discover how faith communities can become places of healing rather than harm during one of life's most difficult transitions. If you're navigating divorce while maintaining your spiritual identity, this conversation offers both practical wisdom and emotional validation for your journey.
Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive
and Decide.
This week I wanted to reallyjust kind of talk about divorce
and church, because a lot oftimes people and we can't speak
for all religions here, so justa quick disclaimer for that but
a lot of times people tend tothink, think I can't get
(00:24):
divorced because my church willnot understand, my church will
shun me.
I have to go through all ofthese different things and,
again, every religion isdifferent and some religions may
make you go through a class tobecome divorced.
But I wanted to talk with somepeople.
I was raised in disciples ofChrist and I, you know it's just
(00:46):
a very more laid back faiththan others and I like that
because it allows us to kind oflive our authentic lives and,
you know, obviously followed bylike the basic things, like you
know thou shall not kill thingslike that.
But you know, other than thatit's really, it's more of like
an authentic life that you lead.
(01:06):
So I asked Kelly Becker and AnnaHubbard, who also happens to be
my sister, to come on herebecause they are both ministers
that I highly, you know, admireand I find very inspirational
because they live theirauthentic lives.
And when I talked to them about, when I talked to you guys.
(01:30):
But when I talked to them aboutthis podcast and you know how I
really wanted to help womengoing through a divorce, you
know to understand, you knowthat there is life on the other
side of divorce, on the otherside of a loss of a spouse, that
you know you can continue to goto church, things like that.
When I talked to them about itthey were like, oh my God, we
(01:50):
would love to you know kind ofshare, like our perspective.
So, kelly and Anna, thank youso much for joining me.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for asking usno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
You know just all the things.
You go first.
No, you go first.
I like it when you go first.
I like to just add in to whatyou say Perfect.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Perfect at scripture in terms of what it, the context
into which it was written andwhat was going on at that time
and try to figure out why it waswritten and perhaps who was
writing it and why they werewriting it.
And so what I believe aboutdivorce, based on what I know of
(03:01):
the Bible, is that you know,there are some passages that
talk about divorce in a negativelight, and I'm thinking of the
Sermon on the Mount.
When Jesus talks about divorce,I'm thinking about places in
the Hebrew Bible as well, buthere's the thing it was a very
patriarchal world, and, for themost part, women weren't allowed
(03:25):
to own property, and so a womanthat was in a divorce situation
was pretty vulnerable, and sowhen Jesus talked about divorce,
he was thinking about a worldin which a woman who didn't have
a husband was at great risk tonot have a place to be, and so
(03:50):
when he talked about it in anegative light, it was about the
idea of protecting women, andso it's not that he didn't care
if women were unhappy.
It's not any of that.
It was about for you to have aplace to lay your head, for you
(04:11):
to have food on the table, foryou to have all the things that
you need to survive and thrivein that world.
For the most part, you needed aman, needed a man, and so
obviously, that is not our worldtoday, although I am very aware
(04:33):
that there are women now who,for financial reasons, stay
married, for healthcare reasons,they stay married, and it's
scary to think about divorce,but we live in a world where not
but, and we live in a worldwhere women can own property,
where women can work full-timejobs and provide for their
(04:57):
families, and so I think we haveto be careful when we look at
the Bible and try to sort ofclobber people on the heads with
it and say, yeah, but Jesussaid no.
Jesus lived 2000 years ago andthe world was very different,
and so I think we have to lookat what Jesus was really talking
about.
And what he was really talkingabout was I care about the
(05:20):
health and wellbeing women, andthe best way to be healthy and
well in that world was for awoman to be attached to a man.
Yeah, what'd I?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
miss.
I don't think you missedanything.
The only other thing I justwould echo a little bit of what
you said is that there's so manyother scriptures, too right,
that aren't necessarily aboutdivorce but are about um worth
for women and just that.
Um, I mean, they're almost likethey're calling them into task
(05:54):
of like hey, you've committed tothis, and like because they
don't have a place, um, and so Iguess my the place that I go
when I think of this is whenchurches or or organizations
even are going to tell you thatyou can't get divorced and that
divorce is now going to defineyou and what you bring to the
(06:17):
community and how you get tooperate within that community.
And I think that we couldparallel a lot of other
scriptures to make a case thatthat is not what Jesus is saying
either, that we're not likethat, that we're suddenly marked
by this divorce and it meansyou don't get to be a valued
(06:41):
member within the community.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Yeah, a member, or even a leader.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I think.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So this is probably a good time to mention.
I am somebody who went througha divorce and I am an ordained
minister in our denomination,and so I think that speaks to
exactly what you were saying.
Is that, um one, you know,getting a divorce is not sinful.
(07:12):
It does not, um make you, umunworthy in the eyes of God, um,
it does not mean that you can'tbe a leader, um, whether in
church or anywhere else.
What it means is I mean quitesimply, what it means is I was
in a relationship with somebodyand that relationship ended up
(07:37):
not being sustainable for lotsand lots of reasons, and I
really do believe that God wantsus to be happy, and sometimes
we and safe and safe.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Absolutely.
I mean, I think that's theother piece to this is I'm
interrupting you, I'm sorry.
No, it's great, but that's theother piece to this is like the
cringe part for me as minister,saying you have to stay there
even though it's unsafe, becauseyou made this commitment in
front of God and in front ofthis group of people, and I
don't think God would call us tobe in situations in which we
(08:10):
are unsafe and aren't able tolive authentically as ourselves,
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, I totally agree with that and I love that you
all, you know, touched on thatand I know, kelly, I've talked
to you about you know doing aseparate podcast where you share
your story, because I'd lovefor you to you know share that.
But I really wanted to keep thefocus here on just kind of like
the church and you know, goingthrough it.
But again, I love that you area part of a, you know,
(08:41):
denomination that not onlyallows women to be ministers,
because that's not the case inall religions, but also allows
you to live that authentic lifewhere you knew that God would
not want you to stay in themarriage that you were in for
you know various reasons and youwere not living your you know
(09:05):
your authentic life.
You weren't, you weren'tgetting the love, the
appreciation, the support, youdidn't have the teammate that
God wants you to have you knowin in a marriage.
And so I love that you are partof you know a denomination that
accepts, that appreciates thatyou know.
Again, I love that you guystalked about scripture and you
(09:26):
know, sadly, there are a lot ofyou know quote unquote
Christians out there that willquote the Bible to you and
they're you know they're quotingsomething that was written
billions of years ago, that youknow that we don't know what
their context was.
Obviously, it wasn't billionsof years ago.
Like you know, it was written along time ago and we don't know
what their context was.
Obviously, it wasn't billionsof years ago.
Like you know, it was written along time ago and we don't know
(09:47):
what their context was, wedon't.
You know, it's like reading atext and going.
You know, I'm assuming negativeintent whenever maybe the
cinder meant positive intent.
So, again, it's just, you know,we don't know what they were
thinking, what they were meaning.
So again, that's what I've lovedabout being raised in the
disciples churches, it's verymuch.
You know, like you can read ascripture.
I can read a scripture.
(10:08):
You think it says one thing.
I think it says one thing wecan both be right in the way
that we, you know, kind ofinterpreted that.
So I feel like it kind of goesthe same.
You know, with divorce it'slike okay, like you know, we
accept you and we want to.
You know, these two people wantto get married.
Great, we're here to supportyou.
Oh, it didn't work out.
Okay, we're still here tosupport you.
(10:28):
We're still here to love you.
So I'd love for you to justkind of talk about, like if
someone in your congregation youknow cause I know that as a
minister you guys both end upbeing kind of a therapist um to
people.
So if someone comes to you andstarts talking about it, I'd
love.
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Obviously don't disclose any personal details,
but we can just tell you whatKelly said to me.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, it's whatever you feel comfortable sharing,
you know, but I I would justlove for you to just kind of
talk about, like you know, ifsomeone comes to you, what is
your initial reaction?
Because I think, unfortunately,like you all mentioned, there
are some ministers that youwould go to and they'd be like,
oh yeah, you just need to tryharder or pray to God and you
know it's all going to work out.
(11:13):
You have to stay married, soI'd love for you to just kind of
touch on, like, what does thatlook like whenever someone comes
to you all with that situation?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
We can talk about that just real fast.
I want to say that my favoriteline was have you tried loving
him like Jesus would?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I did not say that to her, To be clear she did not
say that to her.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I know you would never say that and it just
because it's so cringy, like ithad to have been a man, sadly it
was a man.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
How did you know?
That's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, because that's a manly statement Like did you?
You know it needs to be lovedbetter, you should pray harder.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I want to.
I'm glad you asked thatquestion because, as we've been
talking, the other thought thatI had is because we really
jumped into the thick of likeyou still matter and we want you
to be you and divorce is okay,but like we also aren't part of
a church or a denomination thatdoesn't honor the covenant of
marriage and take that seriouslyand want and are going to root
(12:18):
for you Like.
So when people, when peoplecome to me with that, I think
I'm always asking questionsabout like how can we restore
this?
Is there a way to restore this?
Has something happened thatneeds forgiveness that you can
work together on?
Are you all willing to go totherapy that you maybe need or
could do?
(12:47):
And, at the same time, if thisis what is best for you and
you're already in this place,then it's how do we go about
this transition and make surethat everybody in the family and
in your immediate circle aretaken care of as you all move in
opposite directions oppositedirections, but kind of within
this community together?
(13:07):
So, um, it's really about howcan we be a support.
At least that's how I approachit.
I'm sure Kelly does it a littlebit different, but, like for me
it's how can we be a support tothe place that you're at?
I mean, I'm going to challengea little bit, but I'm not going
to.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And I think what you said previously.
I mean, the very firstassessment that we make is is
everybody safe?
Like, is everybody safe?
Because that is the first thing.
I mean.
There's lots of time later tofigure out, okay, where do we go
from here, but let's make sureeverybody is safe.
(13:46):
And I exactly what you said ourjob is not to make decisions for
people.
Our job is not to talk peopleinto doing what we think we
would do if it was us.
Our job is to meet people wherethey are and figure out how we
can encourage and support them.
And sometimes that's a littlebit messy in congregations
(14:09):
because, let's not forget, wearen't just the pastors of the
women or the one spouse, we arethe pastors of both partners
generally, and so we try really,really hard to let both people
know that this is still theirchurch, we are still their
(14:33):
pastors, we still love them and,no matter how it turns out,
we're going to keep on lovingthem, no matter what out, we're
going to keep on loving them, nomatter what.
And exactly what Anna said about, I mean one of the first
(14:54):
questions I will ask couples isbecause, even if it's clear that
they're headed toward divorce,counseling isn't a bad thing.
In fact, it's a pretty importantthing, and I think either
together or separate andsometimes both, even if you're
headed toward divorce is a goodthing, especially if there are
children, because we don't justas they didn't come with an
(15:16):
instruction book when they wereborn, we don't have an
instruction book to how toparent, co-parent and not be
living together, and so having acounselor on board to help with
that is so important.
And you know reminders alongthe way that the most important
(15:37):
thing as parents is to put theneeds of the children first and
ahead of all of the anger anddisappointment and sadness that
exists.
And and really you know divorce.
There is grief with divorce andand I think that's part of what
(15:59):
we do too is honor that.
Like, even if divorce is whateverybody wants and what
everybody needs, there is stillgrief in that loss, and to honor
that and to be able to talkabout that is important too, I
think.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, well, and I, I absolutely agree.
I think, um and I love that youall touched on that you know
this second that someone walksin um and says, you know that
their, their marriage is overand they're getting a divorce,
you're not like, oh, okay, cool,like great, Like you know.
You're like, okay, well, let'stalk about it.
You know, is there a way inwhich you could see yourself
(16:39):
forgiving what happened?
And you know, moving on, isthat going?
You know, because that is okay,you know, and not everybody's,
you know, divorce story is thesame.
Not everybody's marriage storyis the same.
Everything is unique and youknow, what one person could
forgive is maybe different fromwhat someone else could forgive,
and that's okay.
That's again that's what makesus all unique, you know, but I
(17:00):
think that is.
That's again that's what makesus all unique, um, you know, but
I think that is that's such agood point, though, because I'm
very similar when someone comesto me and says that I'm not like
, oh my gosh, I got divorced,it's so great, let's do this.
You know, like I'm not justlike I'm and I'm not a man hater
, I mean I'm remarried, like Ifound love again, you know.
So it's not that I'm, you know,over here like advocating for
(17:23):
divorce.
I just think that sometimes youknow, if you get to that place
where you tried everything, ittakes two to make the marriage
work.
If you tried everything, you'rethe only person making any
effort whatsoever, and you knowlike then it does become okay.
This is the best option for me,for my life, for my self-care,
(17:45):
for our kids, whatever.
And I love that you all givethat space for people to open up
and not feel judged and notfeel like, oh my gosh, if I tell
my pastor this, then God'slistening and God's going to
judge me and they're going tojudge me and I'm not going to
have my church family and thingslike that, because I do think
that sometimes there are somepeople they they may mean, very
(18:08):
well, I'm not, I'm not judgingthem because you know that also
is not Christian, but I'm notjudging those people that you
know like, feel like they haveto tell you their, you know
their opinions.
But you know, kelly, I thinkbefore we started recording,
like you mentioned a story thatI just it made me so sad for you
that that was the experienceyou had and I have to believe
(18:32):
that that church group that youare a part of must have, you
know, really influenced.
You know your path and you knowkind of how you you minister to
people now.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
So I don't know if you um, not to put you on the
spot but if you'd like to shareyou know, oh sure, um, so, uh,
when it became, uh, obvious tome that, uh, my ex-husband and I
were headed for divorce, um, I,I was part of a Bible study
group I was a youth minister atthe time part of a Bible study
(19:06):
group of women, and we had beentogether as a group for years
and we met every Monday nightand had coffee, and it was great
, and they were some of myclosest friends.
They were some of my closestfriends.
And so one Monday night it wastime we were asking one another
(19:26):
you know, how can I pray for youthis week?
And so I said, danny and I aregetting a divorce and so I'd
appreciate your prayers for usand for the kids and that kind
of thing.
And immediately the leader ofthe group came over and, you
know, she said we need to prayfor you right now.
(19:47):
And she started to pray and allof the prayer was about, you
know, give Kelly the grace toforgive and help her to remember
that marriage is forever.
And it was a lot of praying intoa situation that, quite frankly
(20:09):
, she didn't know very muchabout, and a lot I felt
completely and totally unseenand I did not feel cared about
what I felt like was that I gota sort of a short sermon via
(20:30):
prayer that I honestly, in thattime I didn't need Like.
What I needed was for myfriends to hug me and say this
is going to be hard, and we'reright there with you.
For my friends to hug me andsay this is going to be hard,
and we're right there with you.
And I never went back to thatgroup.
(20:52):
I still was very good friendswith one woman in the group who,
after I left, basically saidthis is not, what just happened
here is not okay, and so she wasout as well.
But it it is hard.
And I think think I said whenwe were talking about it before
recording what I know now thatperhaps I didn't realize then.
What I know now is that when wetell people whether they are
(21:17):
part of the church or not, whenwe tell people about things that
are happening in our lives thatare serious and things like I'm
getting a divorce or my momjust died or I lost my job or
you know, when we tell peoplebig things that are happening in
our lives that are painful andthat are causing suffering, very
(21:41):
often people don't know what tosay.
And because they don't knowwhat to say, they start to say
things either that they've heardor that they.
That are nonsensical.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Which is sad, because I feel like the reason they're
saying something is because theywant to be supportive.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yes, yes, and you know I've stuck my foot in my
mouth before too.
But so they start to say thingslike you know, my mom died
yesterday.
And they say, well, you know,god needed another angel in
heaven.
Not helpful, not helpful.
(22:24):
And the same with divorce.
You know I'm getting a divorce.
Well, let's pray that you willbe able to forgive, or let's
pray that you know.
And what people just really needto know is that they're not
alone, really need to know isthat they're not alone and and
(22:45):
we can't make decisions forother people, we can't possibly
know everything that is going onin a relationship and and I
recognize that as the pastor, Ican have both partners in my
office and they can be tellingme, you know whatever they want
to tell me, and I still don'tknow what's going on.
You know, I still don't.
I can, I just can't know whatthey're going through and what
(23:10):
they feel.
And and I think and I lead withthat a lot of times I, I lead
with, I am so sorry, this is sohard and I don't, I don't know
exactly what you're goingthrough, but I want you to know
that you're not going to gothrough it alone.
Yeah, that's what I can promiseyou is you are not going to be
(23:34):
alone.
And and boy, if that's whatthat group had said to me,
that's what that group had saidto me, that would have been a
gift.
So I just think, and reallywhat I would say about all of
(23:56):
these things is it is reallyokay to say the words I don't
know what to say.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I am so sorry.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
There are not words like I don't know what to say.
I don't know what you need.
And that's yeah, and that'sreally okay.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
And for my own experience I don't think we've
talked about this on therecording, but I'm going through
my own divorce and so, likewithin the church and with
outside the church, the thingthat was most helpful Um and I
know this maybe isn't whatpeople showed up here for, but
what was most helpful is theidea that people just continued
to show up Like there was aschool family that like for all
(24:30):
intensive purposes, as soon asthey found out that we were
going through a divorce.
Any other family would have beenlike OK, we're going to sit
somewhere else at these peeweefootball games and not sit with
the Hubbards, like we're notgoing to do that anymore.
And instead they continued toshow up and save us a seat and
be like you're sitting righthere and just continued to act
(24:51):
like everything was normal andwe're civil and just like.
And it was the most beautifulgift they could give both Travis
and I, because what we neededwas for our kids to not feel
like things were different andso like the fact that there was
still that same seat for us tosit down in and to like watch
the girls cheer for the footballteam, like so that would be my
(25:13):
advice Not that anybody's askedfor that.
But like, how do we show up orwhat do we say?
We say we don't know what tosay and we just continue to show
up because that's it's thatwalking alongside that has meant
the most in this season of life, for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, I absolutely agree, cause I remember, you
know, when I started goingthrough my divorce, you know,
over a decade ago.
You know we were very civil andit was all about our daughter
and you know we would still goto all the all about our
daughter and you know we wouldstill go to all the things
together.
We still did all the holidaystogether.
We still did, you know,everything together, which,
again, my divorce story isunique.
Sometimes people are like Icould never do that.
(25:52):
Okay, that's fine, and I'm nottelling everyone they need to do
that.
You got to find your own thing.
We had some groups of peoplethat were like cool, like what?
We don't have to choose betweenyou and Kevin.
You know we can, we can be both.
And I'm like, yeah, likethere's no need to choose.
And then there were others thatjust did not.
And I think it has to do withyour own comfort level and your
(26:15):
own, you know, maybe experiencethat you've had or haven't had
with divorce, you know, becausethere are some people that you
know have been blessed to neverhave to deal with that or have
anyone in their family deal withthat or ever been near it.
So they just they're like, oh,this is scary, you know, and
it's not normal, you know.
I know Anna and Travis did thesame.
You know that that we did whereit was like it was all about
(26:43):
the kids and you know, justwhatever, whether it made us
uncomfortable or not to betogether, it didn't matter
because it was all about thekids.
And so I think that, again,like you said, you know, it's
just nice for people to meet youwhere you are, um and like and
to, if you have it in your heartto be able to be like.
Yep, I can see that.
You know, whatever you guys aredealing with is whatever you're
dealing with, but we're goingto all still sit together and
I'm not going to make thisawkward.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Even if it's not about sitting together and doing
all those things Like.
What I mean is like they didn't.
They knew us from school.
It wasn't like we had beenfriends a long time.
It wasn't like and I mean bothof them did this, but really the
wife continued to lean in moreLike, so she would reach out and
be like hey, we're going to thepark today.
(27:25):
Do you and the girls want tocome?
So it wasn't always like both,both of us had to be there, but
it was like an intentionality ofcontinuing to see what we were
up to and continuing to involveus into whatever they were doing
.
Because she knew that like anyform of grief, that like things
were hard, and so like let's,let's let Anna come hang out
(27:47):
with us and our kids so that fora family game night, she's not
doing kids solo this Fridaynight or whatever like.
And so she just continued toshow up in that way, and so that
would be my suggestion whetherthey have kids, whether they
don't have kids, continue toinvite to coffee, continue to
like just the same way you would, almost after a death of just
(28:07):
like oh, this is probably stillhard six months down the road,
like, let's, I haven't reachedout to them.
Let's see where they're at.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Let's well, yeah, because even if your spouse
hasn't passed, it's still adeath, it's still a loss, like
you're still grieving the lossof the life you thought you were
going to.
It's still a death.
It's still a loss, like you'restill grieving the loss of the
life you thought you were goingto have.
It's still death to thatmarriage, like you know.
So there is still grief in thatand you know everyone has their
own grief journey.
You know there is no blueprint,there is no, sadly, handbook
(28:38):
that we can just pass out, thatyou know.
Okay, well, you're going to gothrough this phase and then
check this off and then nowyou've got this.
Okay, now you're good.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Like you're healed, literally the only handbook I've
received is everyone sayingthat's the most difficult thing
I've ever been through in mylife.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yeah, yeah, and even for people who, who, who want to
reach a place where they thisis what I want, this is what we
both want it is still the mostdifficult, one of the most
difficult things to go through,and I think you know just that
realizing that you're not alone.
(29:12):
You're not the first person tohave these feelings and your
situation is unique.
And one of the things I wantedto touch on was I try to be very
upfront with couples that it isokay to decide one thing and
(29:36):
then change your mind.
I think sometimes couples think,you know, they come into the
pastor's office and they unloadall of the messiness of their
lives and say we're getting adivorce, we can't do this
anymore.
And of course I'm, you know,trying to help them sort out how
(29:59):
they're feeling and trying tosee how I can support them.
And then and I try to rememberto tell them, you know, no
matter what you decide, howeverthis ends, I'm here for you.
But then sometimes what I'venoticed is that people that
think that they were headed fordivorce then, upon further
(30:24):
reflection, or some other thingshappen and they decide we're
going to give this another try,for whatever reason not
everybody, but sometimes we'regoing to give this the other try
.
And then it's so interesting tome, because sometimes there's
shame around that even it's likeso I told you all this horrible
stuff was happening and nowwe're trying again.
(30:44):
And you must think I'm sostupid, or you know, and so I.
How many times have I said thatto you.
And so I just always wantpeople to know I don't.
I don't think you're stupid, Ithink you're trying to figure
out your life.
I think you're trying to makebig decisions and do the best
that you can and again, thereisn't a manual and all you can
(31:10):
do is make the best decisionsyou can with the information you
have at hand.
And the thing about life istomorrow you're going to have
more information.
And the next day, you're goingto have more information.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Well, and just the reality of it in any life,
questioning moments.
When you come to the pastor'soffice, we're not sitting here
going, well, they made the wrongchoice.
Like that's not our job.
Like our job is to walkalongside you and and life is
making the wrong choice, likeit's going to happen, um, and
(31:46):
we're not.
When you come back in andyou're like, well, that didn't
work out the way I'd hoped, Imean maybe if it were me, you'd
be like well, I mean I tried, um, but for real, we just really
aren't like.
We're like, oh, okay, well,like you felt led to do that and
that felt like what you neededto do.
And now you know.
And like what?
Now you have more informationand where can we go with this?
(32:08):
The other thing I keep thinkingabout is we were talking about
all of this grief and all of thethings that people are going
through when this is happeningand when their relationship is
in turmoil.
And where we started was theidea that churches, couples come
in to talk to their ministerand their minister is like well,
(32:28):
you have to stay marriedbecause you're sinning if you
don't.
And you're like that that's nothelpful when we're in a space
of grief, like and so like.
I just like it almost like camearound full circle for me as
you were talking, cause it'slike, well, how's that helpful
at all If?
If we're trying to struggle andmake these big life decisions
(32:50):
and we don't know which way's upand we don't know what the best
like feels, like exacerbatingthe situation instead of loving
(33:13):
people through it, becausethat's what life is.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I mean, I rambled a lot, sorry, and I think
sometimes, I think sometimes ourworld picks something in
different seasons and that's and, and that is the thing you know
like that is the unforgivablething, you know, whether it's.
You know, divorce is theunforgivable thing, or being gay
is the unforgivable thing, oror or whatever.
(33:39):
And the truth is that Godcreated human beings and God has
known all along that what makesus human is that we don't
always get everything right, butalso what makes us human is we
(33:59):
need each other.
Yes, and sometimes wedisappoint each other, but the
journey is what the journey isand we're all on it together.
We're just on different partsof it and we all make different
choices, and so our job is tojust love people where they are,
(34:22):
and my hope is always that whenpeople experience being loved
where they are, that they gofrom that place recognizing that
they'll get their turn atloving somebody where they are,
and I feel like that that isgoing to be what makes a
(34:45):
difference in the world, isgoing to be what makes a
difference in the world.
Yeah, in our own individuallives and in the world, when we
all kind of get the idea that wejust have to love people.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, and that's good .
I mean just being.
I mean, yes, I'm the ministerof this community, but even
being part of it, as I walk thisjourney myself, like there have
been days that are hard andthat there's hard decisions to
make and hard things to do, butbecause I'm being loved well by
(35:16):
her and the multitude of people,it was like, oh, even if I make
the wrong choice and have todecide something different, like
I'm good because I, it's finebecause there's this community.
And if you had had thatcommunity that said we're gonna
be with you, every single likethat's what would have saved
(35:37):
your.
I mean, that's what's saving mylife.
Essentially is the idea thatlike, okay, well, still get to
show up here on Sundays andright it's gonna be okay.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Well and um, and I will say, in addition to to the
way that we are loving youbecause you're so lovable, um, I
will say too, I still, I stilllove Travis, I still, I am still
in relationship with Travis.
I, we message back and forthTravis knows that he can walk in
(36:08):
this office anytime he wants toand he'll have a sympathetic
ear and you know he has come toworship, you know, before and
since this, since this, yeah,and so, like I just think the
normalization of loving people,personalization of loving people
(36:34):
even when life is messy, is soimportant, and I think ministers
and faith traditions that can'tget that right.
I don't know how they're goingto get anything right.
We have to love people, that'sall there is to it.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, Well, and I love that, and I also love that
you know you are a part of a,you know a faith community, a
denomination that, like you know, even though you two are not
perfect, you don't have.
You know, like this causenobody's perfect but you don't
(37:08):
have this.
Like you guys are pretty closebut like, but you don't have,
you know, you don't have likethe church didn't go.
Oh well, you guys couldn't evenmake your marriage work, so I
guess you probably couldn't be aminister Like weird we still
get asked to do weddings, I knowit's weird.
Yeah, exactly so you know.
So I love that, that, that youhave that.
And, Anna, I love that you haveKelly, who I know has, you know
(37:31):
, loved you through all of this,given you tough love when
you've needed it, listened toyou when you've needed it.
You know, loves and accepts you, kelly, I wish that you had had
had that, you know, when youwere going through it.
But again, this is why I justthought this would be such a
great, you know, topic.
And actually it was an ideafrom Anna whenever I was
(37:53):
visiting last time, you know, Iwas like, hey, I'm going to be
doing these podcasts and youknow, I know your story is very,
very fresh, so I don't want toask you to share your story yet.
And she was like, oh, but Iwant to do a podcast.
What about the church?
Like I could help from aminister standpoint.
And I love that you broughtthat up because it really got me
(38:14):
to thinking like, oh, my gosh,like you know, I I have coached
several people through theirdivorces and like, been there,
just, you know, I'm always justlike I will listen to you.
It's a roller coaster.
You're going to have reallyhigh, you know, really great
days and then all of a sudden,your highs are going to get
higher, your lows aren't goingto be that low, but, like, when
you have a bad day, lean into itand cry like, cry it out, feel
(38:37):
all the feelings, you know, butlike, I just I loved the fact
that.
Um, you know, as I've coachedthose people through, sometimes
there have been people that say,well, my church will not accept
me if I actually go throughthis divorce, or I'm not
divorced in the eyes of mychurch, you know, and things
like that.
And so when Anna brought upthat topic, I was like, oh my
(39:00):
gosh, that is such a good one,because I think it's one that
people don't talk about thatoften, you know, like, because
we're all so lost in our shame.
And then, you know, if you're ata church where they provide
that extra layer of shame, likeGod, like not only does society
think I'm crazy and judge me,now God's judging me, now my
minister's judging me, you knowall of that.
(39:22):
So that's kind of what led ushere, and so I love the.
You know the stories that youall have shared.
Um, you know, and I'd love tohear, like, has there been
anything in like thedenomination, like outside of
the church or within the church,like where anybody has, you
know, like judged the fact thatyou have gone through a divorce
(39:43):
and you're also a minister andyou're also doing you know what
I mean Like do you think you'vebeen held to a different level
of like standard than thanothers, or treated any
differently?
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Um, I don't, I don't think so.
I think from outside the um,outside of our denomination,
honestly, less about my maritalstatus and more about the fact
that I'm a woman.
Yes, I mean the judgment thatwe live in Northeast Oklahoma
(40:20):
and buckle of the Bible beltthere, and before I moved here,
a friend of mine who I respectsaid to me, who lives in
Oklahoma, said I love you and Iwould love to have you closer,
but you need to know Oklahoma isa hard place to be a woman and
(40:44):
to be a pastor, and it is apastor and it is, and that's one
of the really, really positive,wonderful things about Anna and
I working together in the samechurch is that I have, you know,
we have a colleague right, weare, I am the only female senior
(41:09):
minister in town and we are theonly completely female led from
an ordained clergy standpointin town, and so I'm really proud
of that and our church isreally proud of that.
But also it's not easy, and soI think you know this podcast is
(41:32):
for anybody who is getting adivorce, and so I think probably
people who are experiencingdifferent ways of looking at
divorce and other faithtradition, at divorce and other
faith tradition.
Maybe their experience would bedifferent than ours, and I
(42:00):
guess what I wanted to say tothat is because I think that
that would be difficult to be inthe process of a divorce and to
also feel isolated or alienatedin the faith community that has
been so important in your lives.
And so I would say to that it'sokay to be part of a faith
(42:21):
community where you don'tbelieve exactly the same things
as everyone else believes andit's okay to get the things that
you can get from that communitythat enrich your life and then
encourage you, and then to walkaway from the other the parts of
(42:42):
it that no longer work for you.
And that that's okay.
Because I don't want I don'twant to leave people thinking I
can't stay where I'm at.
You know I can't stay in thechurch that I'm at.
You can and you can go.
If you need to talk to adifferent minister, you can go
(43:03):
talk to a minister at anotherchurch and still go to worship
at the church that you're at.
I just I want again it's likewith everything else you have to
do what's best for you.
If sitting in the samesanctuary that you've sat in for
the last 20 years is going tobring your heart comfort, even
if the minister is saying thingsin counseling or whatever that
(43:26):
you don't believe or that makeyou feel any kind of way.
If sitting in that sanctuarybrings you comfort, then sit
there.
Um be, be what you be where youneed to be, do what you need to
do to take care of you.
Yeah, um.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
I think that's such good advice and I I because,
yeah, you're right, like youknow, there it's interesting to
me because there have been somechurches that I, you know, have
gone and visited and I've satthere and I've been like, yeah,
this isn't, this'm like, oh, mygosh, like I'm at home, Like,
(44:08):
okay, you know, and I just thinkI one of the things, too, that
I've always loved about beingraised in the disciples church
is that you can find God andhave a relationship with God and
Jesus outside of church.
You don't have to be at churchevery single Sunday to feel
God's love and, you know, maybeyou being out in nature is what
(44:28):
brings you closer to God andthat's where you have your, you
know your conversations with God, or you feel the closest to
Jesus, or you know any of thosethings, and so I love that.
You know you're not that I everthought you would ever do this,
but I love that you guys aren'tlike you should always choose
disciples of Christ, likebecause we are just the best,
you should come to us.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Everyone should move to Northeast Oklahoma.
Right or watch us online Umbecause the problem is is you're
uprooting so many other partsof your lives, right?
Yes, Like.
One of the things I didn'texpect to have grief over is the
loss of like doing things as afamily unit and like and I'm
(45:08):
only saying that because, like,it was just like another layer
of things that I didn't thinkabout or wasn't prepared for
when it happened, and so mypoint is it's so multi-layered
that like to also change yourchurch in the midst of that is
problematic and could betraumatic, and so like,
(45:30):
definitely, save that for adifferent day.
I agree, if you're comfortablethere and you are around people
that love you, well then thenstay there and decide what you
believe about divorce on a daythat is further down the road.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, because some days everything is clear and
some days it's clear as mud.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Yeah, and I think this is true of all churches,
and maybe some churches would beunhappy to think that this was
true about them, but it's trueof all churches Not everybody in
the pews or the chairs agreeswith the pastor, and so the
(46:20):
pastor may have a stance onwhatever divorce.
but you know, half thecongregation may not agree with
the pastor, and so it really is.
You know, if you have a groupof people who are loving you
well in that church and thepastor is saying things you
don't agree with, well, don'tlisten to the pastor.
Listen to the people who areloving you, and I would say that
(46:44):
I'd say that here too.
If you know, if something I'msaying isn't making you feel
valued and loved and cherishedand enough, then listen to
somebody else, because that'show I want you to feel when
you're here is valued and lovedand enough.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
So yeah, I love it, but also not all, especially
senior ministers, want to bechecked on the fact that, right,
like you genuinely would wantsomebody to walk in here and say
that to you yeah, our peoplewould probably.
But like I, can see situationswhere, like I don't even want to
(47:26):
touch that.
I'd rather just do what you'resaying to do than just be in the
friend group.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yeah, but I love it.
I think, ultimately, themessage you know that you all
are sharing is to find thatplace where you feel seen, heard
, loved and accepted period.
So, but I, I love this so muchand I know you guys are so busy
(47:53):
and I really, really, reallylike, can't thank you enough for
taking time out of your busyday to hop on this podcast and,
um, you know, anna, I ameternally grateful to you for
coming up with this idea.
Um, kelly, I'm eternallygrateful to you for all that you
do for my sister and loving her.
You know, because we are so farapart, you know, physically,
(48:16):
not mentally.
Mentally we're, you know we'retied at the hip, but yeah, but
you know physically.
So I appreciate that.
But thank you so much forcoming on here, being so open,
being willing to, you know,share, like your experience,
share from the churchperspective, um, share from
God's perspective.
You know, I, I, just, I reallytruly appreciate it.
(48:37):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Well, thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, absolutely, and we'll definitely find time to
share your story, kelly and Anna, when you get to that point
that you um, you know you're ina different season and that's
okay, and so you need to stay inthat season and honor that.
But, uh, we'll definitely we'llget you on at some point too.
So, all right, thank you guysso much, and thanks so much for
(49:02):
tuning in.
Um, definitely, uh, make surethat you leave a review, because
feedback is the greatest gift,um for us.
Um, make sure that you leave areview, because feedback is the
greatest gift for us.
Make sure that you're sharingthis podcast with anyone that
you feel could use this message,because that is the greatest
compliment you can give any ofus, and just make sure that
you're subscribing so that younever miss another episode.
(49:22):
So see you next time on Thriveand Decide, all right.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Bye-bye.
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive
and Decide.
This week I wanted to reallyjust kind of talk about divorce
and church, because a lot oftimes people and we can't speak
for all religions here, so justa quick disclaimer for that but
a lot of times people tend tothink, think I can't get
(00:24):
divorced because my church willnot understand, my church will
shun me.
I have to go through all ofthese different things and,
again, every religion isdifferent and some religions may
make you go through a class tobecome divorced.
But I wanted to talk with somepeople.
I was raised in disciples ofChrist and I, you know it's just
(00:46):
a very more laid back faiththan others and I like that
because it allows us to kind oflive our authentic lives and,
you know, obviously followed bylike the basic things, like you
know thou shall not kill thingslike that.
But you know, other than thatit's really, it's more of like
an authentic life that you lead.
(01:06):
So I asked Kelly Becker and AnnaHubbard, who also happens to be
my sister, to come on herebecause they are both ministers
that I highly, you know, admireand I find very inspirational
because they live theirauthentic lives.
And when I talked to them about, when I talked to you guys.
(01:30):
But when I talked to them aboutthis podcast and you know how I
really wanted to help womengoing through a divorce, you
know to understand, you knowthat there is life on the other
side of divorce, on the otherside of a loss of a spouse, that
you know you can continue to goto church, things like that.
When I talked to them about itthey were like, oh my God, we
(01:50):
would love to you know kind ofshare, like our perspective.
So, kelly and Anna, thank youso much for joining me.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for asking usno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
You know just all the things.
You go first.
No, you go first.
I like it when you go first.
I like to just add in to whatyou say Perfect.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Perfect at scripture in terms of what it, the context
into which it was written andwhat was going on at that time
and try to figure out why it waswritten and perhaps who was
writing it and why they werewriting it.
And so what I believe aboutdivorce, based on what I know of
(03:01):
the Bible, is that you know,there are some passages that
talk about divorce in a negativelight, and I'm thinking of the
Sermon on the Mount.
When Jesus talks about divorce,I'm thinking about places in
the Hebrew Bible as well, buthere's the thing it was a very
patriarchal world, and, for themost part, women weren't allowed
(03:25):
to own property, and so a womanthat was in a divorce situation
was pretty vulnerable, and sowhen Jesus talked about divorce,
he was thinking about a worldin which a woman who didn't have
a husband was at great risk tonot have a place to be, and so
(03:50):
when he talked about it in anegative light, it was about the
idea of protecting women, andso it's not that he didn't care
if women were unhappy.
It's not any of that.
It was about for you to have aplace to lay your head, for you
(04:11):
to have food on the table, foryou to have all the things that
you need to survive and thrivein that world.
For the most part, you needed aman, needed a man, and so
obviously, that is not our worldtoday, although I am very aware
(04:33):
that there are women now who,for financial reasons, stay
married, for healthcare reasons,they stay married, and it's
scary to think about divorce,but we live in a world where not
but, and we live in a worldwhere women can own property,
where women can work full-timejobs and provide for their
(04:57):
families, and so I think we haveto be careful when we look at
the Bible and try to sort ofclobber people on the heads with
it and say, yeah, but Jesussaid no.
Jesus lived 2000 years ago andthe world was very different,
and so I think we have to lookat what Jesus was really talking
about.
And what he was really talkingabout was I care about the
(05:20):
health and wellbeing women, andthe best way to be healthy and
well in that world was for awoman to be attached to a man.
Yeah, what'd I?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
miss.
I don't think you missedanything.
The only other thing I justwould echo a little bit of what
you said is that there's so manyother scriptures, too right,
that aren't necessarily aboutdivorce but are about um worth
for women and just that.
Um, I mean, they're almost likethey're calling them into task
(05:54):
of like hey, you've committed tothis, and like because they
don't have a place, um, and so Iguess my the place that I go
when I think of this is whenchurches or or organizations
even are going to tell you thatyou can't get divorced and that
divorce is now going to defineyou and what you bring to the
(06:17):
community and how you get tooperate within that community.
And I think that we couldparallel a lot of other
scriptures to make a case thatthat is not what Jesus is saying
either, that we're not likethat, that we're suddenly marked
by this divorce and it meansyou don't get to be a valued
(06:41):
member within the community.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Yeah, a member, or even a leader.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I think.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So this is probably a good time to mention.
I am somebody who went througha divorce and I am an ordained
minister in our denomination,and so I think that speaks to
exactly what you were saying.
Is that, um one, you know,getting a divorce is not sinful.
(07:12):
It does not, um make you, umunworthy in the eyes of God, um,
it does not mean that you can'tbe a leader, um, whether in
church or anywhere else.
What it means is I mean quitesimply, what it means is I was
in a relationship with somebodyand that relationship ended up
(07:37):
not being sustainable for lotsand lots of reasons, and I
really do believe that God wantsus to be happy, and sometimes
we and safe and safe.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Absolutely.
I mean, I think that's theother piece to this is I'm
interrupting you, I'm sorry.
No, it's great, but that's theother piece to this is like the
cringe part for me as minister,saying you have to stay there
even though it's unsafe, becauseyou made this commitment in
front of God and in front ofthis group of people, and I
don't think God would call us tobe in situations in which we
(08:10):
are unsafe and aren't able tolive authentically as ourselves,
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, I totally agree with that and I love that you
all, you know, touched on thatand I know, kelly, I've talked
to you about you know doing aseparate podcast where you share
your story, because I'd lovefor you to you know share that.
But I really wanted to keep thefocus here on just kind of like
the church and you know, goingthrough it.
But again, I love that you area part of a, you know,
(08:41):
denomination that not onlyallows women to be ministers,
because that's not the case inall religions, but also allows
you to live that authentic lifewhere you knew that God would
not want you to stay in themarriage that you were in for
you know various reasons and youwere not living your you know
(09:05):
your authentic life.
You weren't, you weren'tgetting the love, the
appreciation, the support, youdidn't have the teammate that
God wants you to have you knowin in a marriage.
And so I love that you are partof you know a denomination that
accepts, that appreciates thatyou know.
Again, I love that you guystalked about scripture and you
(09:26):
know, sadly, there are a lot ofyou know quote unquote
Christians out there that willquote the Bible to you and
they're you know they're quotingsomething that was written
billions of years ago, that youknow that we don't know what
their context was.
Obviously, it wasn't billionsof years ago.
Like you know, it was written along time ago and we don't know
what their context was.
Obviously, it wasn't billionsof years ago.
Like you know, it was written along time ago and we don't know
(09:47):
what their context was, wedon't.
You know, it's like reading atext and going.
You know, I'm assuming negativeintent whenever maybe the
cinder meant positive intent.
So, again, it's just, you know,we don't know what they were
thinking, what they were meaning.
So again, that's what I've lovedabout being raised in the
disciples churches, it's verymuch.
You know, like you can read ascripture.
I can read a scripture.
(10:08):
You think it says one thing.
I think it says one thing wecan both be right in the way
that we, you know, kind ofinterpreted that.
So I feel like it kind of goesthe same.
You know, with divorce it'slike okay, like you know, we
accept you and we want to.
You know, these two people wantto get married.
Great, we're here to supportyou.
Oh, it didn't work out.
Okay, we're still here tosupport you.
(10:28):
We're still here to love you.
So I'd love for you to justkind of talk about, like if
someone in your congregation youknow cause I know that as a
minister you guys both end upbeing kind of a therapist um to
people.
So if someone comes to you andstarts talking about it, I'd
love.
You know.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Obviously don't disclose any personal details,
but we can just tell you whatKelly said to me.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, it's whatever you feel comfortable sharing,
you know, but I I would justlove for you to just kind of
talk about, like you know, ifsomeone comes to you, what is
your initial reaction?
Because I think, unfortunately,like you all mentioned, there
are some ministers that youwould go to and they'd be like,
oh yeah, you just need to tryharder or pray to God and you
know it's all going to work out.
(11:13):
You have to stay married, soI'd love for you to just kind of
touch on, like, what does thatlook like whenever someone comes
to you all with that situation?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
We can talk about that just real fast.
I want to say that my favoriteline was have you tried loving
him like Jesus would?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I did not say that to her, To be clear she did not
say that to her.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I know you would never say that and it just
because it's so cringy, like ithad to have been a man, sadly it
was a man.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
How did you know?
That's hilarious.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, because that's a manly statement Like did you?
You know it needs to be lovedbetter, you should pray harder.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I want to.
I'm glad you asked thatquestion because, as we've been
talking, the other thought thatI had is because we really
jumped into the thick of likeyou still matter and we want you
to be you and divorce is okay,but like we also aren't part of
a church or a denomination thatdoesn't honor the covenant of
marriage and take that seriouslyand want and are going to root
(12:18):
for you Like.
So when people, when peoplecome to me with that, I think
I'm always asking questionsabout like how can we restore
this?
Is there a way to restore this?
Has something happened thatneeds forgiveness that you can
work together on?
Are you all willing to go totherapy that you maybe need or
could do?
(12:47):
And, at the same time, if thisis what is best for you and
you're already in this place,then it's how do we go about
this transition and make surethat everybody in the family and
in your immediate circle aretaken care of as you all move in
opposite directions oppositedirections, but kind of within
this community together?
(13:07):
So, um, it's really about howcan we be a support.
At least that's how I approachit.
I'm sure Kelly does it a littlebit different, but, like for me
it's how can we be a support tothe place that you're at?
I mean, I'm going to challengea little bit, but I'm not going
to.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And I think what you said previously.
I mean, the very firstassessment that we make is is
everybody safe?
Like, is everybody safe?
Because that is the first thing.
I mean.
There's lots of time later tofigure out, okay, where do we go
from here, but let's make sureeverybody is safe.
(13:46):
And I exactly what you said ourjob is not to make decisions for
people.
Our job is not to talk peopleinto doing what we think we
would do if it was us.
Our job is to meet people wherethey are and figure out how we
can encourage and support them.
And sometimes that's a littlebit messy in congregations
(14:09):
because, let's not forget, wearen't just the pastors of the
women or the one spouse, we arethe pastors of both partners
generally, and so we try really,really hard to let both people
know that this is still theirchurch, we are still their
(14:33):
pastors, we still love them and,no matter how it turns out,
we're going to keep on lovingthem, no matter what out, we're
going to keep on loving them, nomatter what.
And exactly what Anna said about, I mean one of the first
(14:54):
questions I will ask couples isbecause, even if it's clear that
they're headed toward divorce,counseling isn't a bad thing.
In fact, it's a pretty importantthing, and I think either
together or separate andsometimes both, even if you're
headed toward divorce is a goodthing, especially if there are
children, because we don't justas they didn't come with an
(15:16):
instruction book when they wereborn, we don't have an
instruction book to how toparent, co-parent and not be
living together, and so having acounselor on board to help with
that is so important.
And you know reminders alongthe way that the most important
(15:37):
thing as parents is to put theneeds of the children first and
ahead of all of the anger anddisappointment and sadness that
exists.
And and really you know divorce.
There is grief with divorce andand I think that's part of what
(15:59):
we do too is honor that.
Like, even if divorce is whateverybody wants and what
everybody needs, there is stillgrief in that loss, and to honor
that and to be able to talkabout that is important too, I
think.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, well, and I, I absolutely agree.
I think, um and I love that youall touched on that you know
this second that someone walksin um and says, you know that
their, their marriage is overand they're getting a divorce,
you're not like, oh, okay, cool,like great, Like you know.
You're like, okay, well, let'stalk about it.
You know, is there a way inwhich you could see yourself
(16:39):
forgiving what happened?
And you know, moving on, isthat going?
You know, because that is okay,you know, and not everybody's,
you know, divorce story is thesame.
Not everybody's marriage storyis the same.
Everything is unique and youknow, what one person could
forgive is maybe different fromwhat someone else could forgive,
and that's okay.
That's again that's what makesus all unique, you know, but I
(17:00):
think that is.
That's again that's what makesus all unique, um, you know, but
I think that is that's such agood point, though, because I'm
very similar when someone comesto me and says that I'm not like
, oh my gosh, I got divorced,it's so great, let's do this.
You know, like I'm not justlike I'm and I'm not a man hater
, I mean I'm remarried, like Ifound love again, you know.
So it's not that I'm, you know,over here like advocating for
(17:23):
divorce.
I just think that sometimes youknow, if you get to that place
where you tried everything, ittakes two to make the marriage
work.
If you tried everything, you'rethe only person making any
effort whatsoever, and you knowlike then it does become okay.
This is the best option for me,for my life, for my self-care,
(17:45):
for our kids, whatever.
And I love that you all givethat space for people to open up
and not feel judged and notfeel like, oh my gosh, if I tell
my pastor this, then God'slistening and God's going to
judge me and they're going tojudge me and I'm not going to
have my church family and thingslike that, because I do think
that sometimes there are somepeople they they may mean, very
(18:08):
well, I'm not, I'm not judgingthem because you know that also
is not Christian, but I'm notjudging those people that you
know like, feel like they haveto tell you their, you know
their opinions.
But you know, kelly, I thinkbefore we started recording,
like you mentioned a story thatI just it made me so sad for you
that that was the experienceyou had and I have to believe
(18:32):
that that church group that youare a part of must have, you
know, really influenced.
You know your path and you knowkind of how you you minister to
people now.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
So I don't know if you um, not to put you on the
spot but if you'd like to shareyou know, oh sure, um, so, uh,
when it became, uh, obvious tome that, uh, my ex-husband and I
were headed for divorce, um, I,I was part of a Bible study
group I was a youth minister atthe time part of a Bible study
(19:06):
group of women, and we had beentogether as a group for years
and we met every Monday nightand had coffee, and it was great
, and they were some of myclosest friends.
They were some of my closestfriends.
And so one Monday night it wastime we were asking one another
(19:26):
you know, how can I pray for youthis week?
And so I said, danny and I aregetting a divorce and so I'd
appreciate your prayers for usand for the kids and that kind
of thing.
And immediately the leader ofthe group came over and, you
know, she said we need to prayfor you right now.
(19:47):
And she started to pray and allof the prayer was about, you
know, give Kelly the grace toforgive and help her to remember
that marriage is forever.
And it was a lot of praying intoa situation that, quite frankly
(20:09):
, she didn't know very muchabout, and a lot I felt
completely and totally unseenand I did not feel cared about
what I felt like was that I gota sort of a short sermon via
(20:30):
prayer that I honestly, in thattime I didn't need Like.
What I needed was for myfriends to hug me and say this
is going to be hard, and we'reright there with you.
For my friends to hug me andsay this is going to be hard,
and we're right there with you.
And I never went back to thatgroup.
(20:52):
I still was very good friendswith one woman in the group who,
after I left, basically saidthis is not, what just happened
here is not okay, and so she wasout as well.
But it it is hard.
And I think think I said whenwe were talking about it before
recording what I know now thatperhaps I didn't realize then.
What I know now is that when wetell people whether they are
(21:17):
part of the church or not, whenwe tell people about things that
are happening in our lives thatare serious and things like I'm
getting a divorce or my momjust died or I lost my job or
you know, when we tell peoplebig things that are happening in
our lives that are painful andthat are causing suffering, very
(21:41):
often people don't know what tosay.
And because they don't knowwhat to say, they start to say
things either that they've heardor that they.
That are nonsensical.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Which is sad, because I feel like the reason they're
saying something is because theywant to be supportive.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yes, yes, and you know I've stuck my foot in my
mouth before too.
But so they start to say thingslike you know, my mom died
yesterday.
And they say, well, you know,god needed another angel in
heaven.
Not helpful, not helpful.
(22:24):
And the same with divorce.
You know I'm getting a divorce.
Well, let's pray that you willbe able to forgive, or let's
pray that you know.
And what people just really needto know is that they're not
alone, really need to know isthat they're not alone and and
(22:45):
we can't make decisions forother people, we can't possibly
know everything that is going onin a relationship and and I
recognize that as the pastor, Ican have both partners in my
office and they can be tellingme, you know whatever they want
to tell me, and I still don'tknow what's going on.
You know, I still don't.
I can, I just can't know whatthey're going through and what
(23:10):
they feel.
And and I think and I lead withthat a lot of times I, I lead
with, I am so sorry, this is sohard and I don't, I don't know
exactly what you're goingthrough, but I want you to know
that you're not going to gothrough it alone.
Yeah, that's what I can promiseyou is you are not going to be
(23:34):
alone.
And and boy, if that's whatthat group had said to me,
that's what that group had saidto me, that would have been a
gift.
So I just think, and reallywhat I would say about all of
(23:56):
these things is it is reallyokay to say the words I don't
know what to say.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I am so sorry.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
There are not words like I don't know what to say.
I don't know what you need.
And that's yeah, and that'sreally okay.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
And for my own experience I don't think we've
talked about this on therecording, but I'm going through
my own divorce and so, likewithin the church and with
outside the church, the thingthat was most helpful Um and I
know this maybe isn't whatpeople showed up here for, but
what was most helpful is theidea that people just continued
to show up Like there was aschool family that like for all
(24:30):
intensive purposes, as soon asthey found out that we were
going through a divorce.
Any other family would have beenlike OK, we're going to sit
somewhere else at these peeweefootball games and not sit with
the Hubbards, like we're notgoing to do that anymore.
And instead they continued toshow up and save us a seat and
be like you're sitting righthere and just continued to act
(24:51):
like everything was normal andwe're civil and just like.
And it was the most beautifulgift they could give both Travis
and I, because what we neededwas for our kids to not feel
like things were different andso like the fact that there was
still that same seat for us tosit down in and to like watch
the girls cheer for the footballteam, like so that would be my
(25:13):
advice Not that anybody's askedfor that.
But like, how do we show up orwhat do we say?
We say we don't know what tosay and we just continue to show
up because that's it's thatwalking alongside that has meant
the most in this season of life, for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, I absolutely agree, cause I remember, you
know, when I started goingthrough my divorce, you know,
over a decade ago.
You know we were very civil andit was all about our daughter
and you know we would still goto all the all about our
daughter and you know we wouldstill go to all the things
together.
We still did all the holidaystogether.
We still did, you know,everything together, which,
again, my divorce story isunique.
Sometimes people are like Icould never do that.
(25:52):
Okay, that's fine, and I'm nottelling everyone they need to do
that.
You got to find your own thing.
We had some groups of peoplethat were like cool, like what?
We don't have to choose betweenyou and Kevin.
You know we can, we can be both.
And I'm like, yeah, likethere's no need to choose.
And then there were others thatjust did not.
And I think it has to do withyour own comfort level and your
(26:15):
own, you know, maybe experiencethat you've had or haven't had
with divorce, you know, becausethere are some people that you
know have been blessed to neverhave to deal with that or have
anyone in their family deal withthat or ever been near it.
So they just they're like, oh,this is scary, you know, and
it's not normal, you know.
I know Anna and Travis did thesame.
You know that that we did whereit was like it was all about
(26:43):
the kids and you know, justwhatever, whether it made us
uncomfortable or not to betogether, it didn't matter
because it was all about thekids.
And so I think that, again,like you said, you know, it's
just nice for people to meet youwhere you are, um and like and
to, if you have it in your heartto be able to be like.
Yep, I can see that.
You know, whatever you guys aredealing with is whatever you're
dealing with, but we're goingto all still sit together and
I'm not going to make thisawkward.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Even if it's not about sitting together and doing
all those things Like.
What I mean is like they didn't.
They knew us from school.
It wasn't like we had beenfriends a long time.
It wasn't like and I mean bothof them did this, but really the
wife continued to lean in moreLike, so she would reach out and
be like hey, we're going to thepark today.
(27:25):
Do you and the girls want tocome?
So it wasn't always like both,both of us had to be there, but
it was like an intentionality ofcontinuing to see what we were
up to and continuing to involveus into whatever they were doing
.
Because she knew that like anyform of grief, that like things
were hard, and so like let's,let's let Anna come hang out
(27:47):
with us and our kids so that fora family game night, she's not
doing kids solo this Fridaynight or whatever like.
And so she just continued toshow up in that way, and so that
would be my suggestion whetherthey have kids, whether they
don't have kids, continue toinvite to coffee, continue to
like just the same way you would, almost after a death of just
(28:07):
like oh, this is probably stillhard six months down the road,
like, let's, I haven't reachedout to them.
Let's see where they're at.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Let's well, yeah, because even if your spouse
hasn't passed, it's still adeath, it's still a loss, like
you're still grieving the lossof the life you thought you were
going to.
It's still a death.
It's still a loss, like you'restill grieving the loss of the
life you thought you were goingto have.
It's still death to thatmarriage, like you know.
So there is still grief in thatand you know everyone has their
own grief journey.
You know there is no blueprint,there is no, sadly, handbook
(28:38):
that we can just pass out, thatyou know.
Okay, well, you're going to gothrough this phase and then
check this off and then nowyou've got this.
Okay, now you're good.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Like you're healed, literally the only handbook I've
received is everyone sayingthat's the most difficult thing
I've ever been through in mylife.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yeah, yeah, and even for people who, who, who want to
reach a place where they thisis what I want, this is what we
both want it is still the mostdifficult, one of the most
difficult things to go through,and I think you know just that
realizing that you're not alone.
(29:12):
You're not the first person tohave these feelings and your
situation is unique.
And one of the things I wantedto touch on was I try to be very
upfront with couples that it isokay to decide one thing and
(29:36):
then change your mind.
I think sometimes couples think,you know, they come into the
pastor's office and they unloadall of the messiness of their
lives and say we're getting adivorce, we can't do this
anymore.
And of course I'm, you know,trying to help them sort out how
(29:59):
they're feeling and trying tosee how I can support them.
And then and I try to rememberto tell them, you know, no
matter what you decide, howeverthis ends, I'm here for you.
But then sometimes what I'venoticed is that people that
think that they were headed fordivorce then, upon further
(30:24):
reflection, or some other thingshappen and they decide we're
going to give this another try,for whatever reason not
everybody, but sometimes we'regoing to give this the other try
.
And then it's so interesting tome, because sometimes there's
shame around that even it's likeso I told you all this horrible
stuff was happening and nowwe're trying again.
(30:44):
And you must think I'm sostupid, or you know, and so I.
How many times have I said thatto you.
And so I just always wantpeople to know I don't.
I don't think you're stupid, Ithink you're trying to figure
out your life.
I think you're trying to makebig decisions and do the best
that you can and again, thereisn't a manual and all you can
(31:10):
do is make the best decisionsyou can with the information you
have at hand.
And the thing about life istomorrow you're going to have
more information.
And the next day, you're goingto have more information.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Well, and just the reality of it in any life,
questioning moments.
When you come to the pastor'soffice, we're not sitting here
going, well, they made the wrongchoice.
Like that's not our job.
Like our job is to walkalongside you and and life is
making the wrong choice, likeit's going to happen, um, and
(31:46):
we're not.
When you come back in andyou're like, well, that didn't
work out the way I'd hoped, Imean maybe if it were me, you'd
be like well, I mean I tried, um, but for real, we just really
aren't like.
We're like, oh, okay, well,like you felt led to do that and
that felt like what you neededto do.
And now you know.
And like what?
Now you have more informationand where can we go with this?
(32:08):
The other thing I keep thinkingabout is we were talking about
all of this grief and all of thethings that people are going
through when this is happeningand when their relationship is
in turmoil.
And where we started was theidea that churches, couples come
in to talk to their ministerand their minister is like well,
(32:28):
you have to stay marriedbecause you're sinning if you
don't.
And you're like that that's nothelpful when we're in a space
of grief, like and so like.
I just like it almost like camearound full circle for me as
you were talking, cause it'slike, well, how's that helpful
at all If?
If we're trying to struggle andmake these big life decisions
(32:50):
and we don't know which way's upand we don't know what the best
like feels, like exacerbatingthe situation instead of loving
(33:13):
people through it, becausethat's what life is.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I mean, I rambled a lot, sorry, and I think
sometimes, I think sometimes ourworld picks something in
different seasons and that's and, and that is the thing you know
like that is the unforgivablething, you know, whether it's.
You know, divorce is theunforgivable thing, or being gay
is the unforgivable thing, oror or whatever.
(33:39):
And the truth is that Godcreated human beings and God has
known all along that what makesus human is that we don't
always get everything right, butalso what makes us human is we
(33:59):
need each other.
Yes, and sometimes wedisappoint each other, but the
journey is what the journey isand we're all on it together.
We're just on different partsof it and we all make different
choices, and so our job is tojust love people where they are,
(34:22):
and my hope is always that whenpeople experience being loved
where they are, that they gofrom that place recognizing that
they'll get their turn atloving somebody where they are,
and I feel like that that isgoing to be what makes a
(34:45):
difference in the world, isgoing to be what makes a
difference in the world.
Yeah, in our own individuallives and in the world, when we
all kind of get the idea that wejust have to love people.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, and that's good .
I mean just being.
I mean, yes, I'm the ministerof this community, but even
being part of it, as I walk thisjourney myself, like there have
been days that are hard andthat there's hard decisions to
make and hard things to do, butbecause I'm being loved well by
(35:16):
her and the multitude of people,it was like, oh, even if I make
the wrong choice and have todecide something different, like
I'm good because I, it's finebecause there's this community.
And if you had had thatcommunity that said we're gonna
be with you, every single likethat's what would have saved
(35:37):
your.
I mean, that's what's saving mylife.
Essentially is the idea thatlike, okay, well, still get to
show up here on Sundays andright it's gonna be okay.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Well and um, and I will say, in addition to to the
way that we are loving youbecause you're so lovable, um, I
will say too, I still, I stilllove Travis, I still, I am still
in relationship with Travis.
I, we message back and forthTravis knows that he can walk in
(36:08):
this office anytime he wants toand he'll have a sympathetic
ear and you know he has come toworship, you know, before and
since this, since this, yeah,and so, like I just think the
normalization of loving people,personalization of loving people
(36:34):
even when life is messy, is soimportant, and I think ministers
and faith traditions that can'tget that right.
I don't know how they're goingto get anything right.
We have to love people, that'sall there is to it.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, Well, and I love that, and I also love that
you know you are a part of a,you know a faith community, a
denomination that, like you know, even though you two are not
perfect, you don't have.
You know, like this causenobody's perfect but you don't
(37:08):
have this.
Like you guys are pretty closebut like, but you don't have,
you know, you don't have likethe church didn't go.
Oh well, you guys couldn't evenmake your marriage work, so I
guess you probably couldn't be aminister Like weird we still
get asked to do weddings, I knowit's weird.
Yeah, exactly so you know.
So I love that, that, that youhave that.
And, Anna, I love that you haveKelly, who I know has, you know
(37:31):
, loved you through all of this,given you tough love when
you've needed it, listened toyou when you've needed it.
You know, loves and accepts you, kelly, I wish that you had had
had that, you know, when youwere going through it.
But again, this is why I justthought this would be such a
great, you know, topic.
And actually it was an ideafrom Anna whenever I was
(37:53):
visiting last time, you know, Iwas like, hey, I'm going to be
doing these podcasts and youknow, I know your story is very,
very fresh, so I don't want toask you to share your story yet.
And she was like, oh, but Iwant to do a podcast.
What about the church?
Like I could help from aminister standpoint.
And I love that you broughtthat up because it really got me
(38:14):
to thinking like, oh, my gosh,like you know, I I have coached
several people through theirdivorces and like, been there,
just, you know, I'm always justlike I will listen to you.
It's a roller coaster.
You're going to have reallyhigh, you know, really great
days and then all of a sudden,your highs are going to get
higher, your lows aren't goingto be that low, but, like, when
you have a bad day, lean into itand cry like, cry it out, feel
(38:37):
all the feelings, you know, butlike, I just I loved the fact
that.
Um, you know, as I've coachedthose people through, sometimes
there have been people that say,well, my church will not accept
me if I actually go throughthis divorce, or I'm not
divorced in the eyes of mychurch, you know, and things
like that.
And so when Anna brought upthat topic, I was like, oh my
(39:00):
gosh, that is such a good one,because I think it's one that
people don't talk about thatoften, you know, like, because
we're all so lost in our shame.
And then, you know, if you're ata church where they provide
that extra layer of shame, likeGod, like not only does society
think I'm crazy and judge me,now God's judging me, now my
minister's judging me, you knowall of that.
(39:22):
So that's kind of what led ushere, and so I love the.
You know the stories that youall have shared.
Um, you know, and I'd love tohear, like, has there been
anything in like thedenomination, like outside of
the church or within the church,like where anybody has, you
know, like judged the fact thatyou have gone through a divorce
(39:43):
and you're also a minister andyou're also doing you know what
I mean Like do you think you'vebeen held to a different level
of like standard than thanothers, or treated any
differently?
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Um, I don't, I don't think so.
I think from outside the um,outside of our denomination,
honestly, less about my maritalstatus and more about the fact
that I'm a woman.
Yes, I mean the judgment thatwe live in Northeast Oklahoma
(40:20):
and buckle of the Bible beltthere, and before I moved here,
a friend of mine who I respectsaid to me, who lives in
Oklahoma, said I love you and Iwould love to have you closer,
but you need to know Oklahoma isa hard place to be a woman and
(40:44):
to be a pastor, and it is apastor and it is, and that's one
of the really, really positive,wonderful things about Anna and
I working together in the samechurch is that I have, you know,
we have a colleague right, weare, I am the only female senior
(41:09):
minister in town and we are theonly completely female led from
an ordained clergy standpointin town, and so I'm really proud
of that and our church isreally proud of that.
But also it's not easy, and soI think you know this podcast is
(41:32):
for anybody who is getting adivorce, and so I think probably
people who are experiencingdifferent ways of looking at
divorce and other faithtradition, at divorce and other
faith tradition.
Maybe their experience would bedifferent than ours, and I
(42:00):
guess what I wanted to say tothat is because I think that
that would be difficult to be inthe process of a divorce and to
also feel isolated or alienatedin the faith community that has
been so important in your lives.
And so I would say to that it'sokay to be part of a faith
(42:21):
community where you don'tbelieve exactly the same things
as everyone else believes andit's okay to get the things that
you can get from that communitythat enrich your life and then
encourage you, and then to walkaway from the other the parts of
(42:42):
it that no longer work for you.
And that that's okay.
Because I don't want I don'twant to leave people thinking I
can't stay where I'm at.
You know I can't stay in thechurch that I'm at.
You can and you can go.
If you need to talk to adifferent minister, you can go
(43:03):
talk to a minister at anotherchurch and still go to worship
at the church that you're at.
I just I want again it's likewith everything else you have to
do what's best for you.
If sitting in the samesanctuary that you've sat in for
the last 20 years is going tobring your heart comfort, even
if the minister is saying thingsin counseling or whatever that
(43:26):
you don't believe or that makeyou feel any kind of way.
If sitting in that sanctuarybrings you comfort, then sit
there.
Um be, be what you be where youneed to be, do what you need to
do to take care of you.
Yeah, um.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
I think that's such good advice and I I because,
yeah, you're right, like youknow, there it's interesting to
me because there have been somechurches that I, you know, have
gone and visited and I've satthere and I've been like, yeah,
this isn't, this'm like, oh, mygosh, like I'm at home, Like,
(44:08):
okay, you know, and I just thinkI one of the things, too, that
I've always loved about beingraised in the disciples church
is that you can find God andhave a relationship with God and
Jesus outside of church.
You don't have to be at churchevery single Sunday to feel
God's love and, you know, maybeyou being out in nature is what
(44:28):
brings you closer to God andthat's where you have your, you
know your conversations with God, or you feel the closest to
Jesus, or you know any of thosethings, and so I love that.
You know you're not that I everthought you would ever do this,
but I love that you guys aren'tlike you should always choose
disciples of Christ, likebecause we are just the best,
you should come to us.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Everyone should move to Northeast Oklahoma.
Right or watch us online Umbecause the problem is is you're
uprooting so many other partsof your lives, right?
Yes, Like.
One of the things I didn'texpect to have grief over is the
loss of like doing things as afamily unit and like and I'm
(45:08):
only saying that because, like,it was just like another layer
of things that I didn't thinkabout or wasn't prepared for
when it happened, and so mypoint is it's so multi-layered
that like to also change yourchurch in the midst of that is
problematic and could betraumatic, and so like,
(45:30):
definitely, save that for adifferent day.
I agree, if you're comfortablethere and you are around people
that love you, well then thenstay there and decide what you
believe about divorce on a daythat is further down the road.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, because some days everything is clear and
some days it's clear as mud.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Yeah, and I think this is true of all churches,
and maybe some churches would beunhappy to think that this was
true about them, but it's trueof all churches Not everybody in
the pews or the chairs agreeswith the pastor, and so the
(46:20):
pastor may have a stance onwhatever divorce.
but you know, half thecongregation may not agree with
the pastor, and so it really is.
You know, if you have a groupof people who are loving you
well in that church and thepastor is saying things you
don't agree with, well, don'tlisten to the pastor.
Listen to the people who areloving you, and I would say that
(46:44):
I'd say that here too.
If you know, if something I'msaying isn't making you feel
valued and loved and cherishedand enough, then listen to
somebody else, because that'show I want you to feel when
you're here is valued and lovedand enough.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
So yeah, I love it, but also not all, especially
senior ministers, want to bechecked on the fact that, right,
like you genuinely would wantsomebody to walk in here and say
that to you yeah, our peoplewould probably.
But like I, can see situationswhere, like I don't even want to
(47:26):
touch that.
I'd rather just do what you'resaying to do than just be in the
friend group.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yeah, but I love it.
I think, ultimately, themessage you know that you all
are sharing is to find thatplace where you feel seen, heard
, loved and accepted period.
So, but I, I love this so muchand I know you guys are so busy
(47:53):
and I really, really, reallylike, can't thank you enough for
taking time out of your busyday to hop on this podcast and,
um, you know, anna, I ameternally grateful to you for
coming up with this idea.
Um, kelly, I'm eternallygrateful to you for all that you
do for my sister and loving her.
You know, because we are so farapart, you know, physically,
(48:16):
not mentally.
Mentally we're, you know we'retied at the hip, but yeah, but
you know physically.
So I appreciate that.
But thank you so much forcoming on here, being so open,
being willing to, you know,share, like your experience,
share from the churchperspective, um, share from
God's perspective.
You know, I, I, just, I reallytruly appreciate it.
(48:37):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Well, thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, absolutely, and we'll definitely find time to
share your story, kelly and Anna, when you get to that point
that you um, you know you're ina different season and that's
okay, and so you need to stay inthat season and honor that.
But, uh, we'll definitely we'llget you on at some point too.
So, all right, thank you guysso much, and thanks so much for
(49:02):
tuning in.
Um, definitely, uh, make surethat you leave a review, because
feedback is the greatest gift,um for us.
Um, make sure that you leave areview, because feedback is the
greatest gift for us.
Make sure that you're sharingthis podcast with anyone that
you feel could use this message,because that is the greatest
compliment you can give any ofus, and just make sure that
you're subscribing so that younever miss another episode.
(49:22):
So see you next time on Thriveand Decide, all right.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Bye-bye.
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