December 5, 2024 • 48 mins
What happens when the seemingly stable structure of family life begins to crumble? Join us as we navigate the emotional landscape of divorce through a child's eyes and uncover its nuanced effects on parents and children. I share my personal journey through the uncertainty of my own divorce and the fears that surfaced for my daughter's future, only to witness her incredible resilience and growth. Our special guest, Chris Pinkerton, enriches this conversation with her poignant story of growing up amidst the chaos of a controlling father and a mother overwhelmed by anxiety and alcoholism. Together, we unpack the challenging choices parents make to safeguard their children amidst turmoil and reflect on the inner strength that can arise from surviving such environments.
Our exploration continues with the harrowing events that led to Chris' parents' divorce, a tale marked by intense conflict and a violent confrontation that propelled a rapid separation. This chapter delves into the financial and emotional aftermath, a period fraught with personal sacrifice and familial tension, exacerbated by long-standing infidelities. Recognizing patterns of unhealthy relationships, we underscore the importance of supporting victims of abuse and the societal need to shift the narrative from questioning victims to holding abusers accountable. Chris and I also discuss the enduring impact of generational trauma and the dire need for strong support networks and understanding.
The closing chapter offers a hopeful transition from traditional coping mechanisms to holistic self-care practices, highlighting alternative healing methods. I recount my personal shift from medication to embracing exercise, yoga, and Reiki, finding solace and transformation in these practices. Chris and I examine the importance of personalized approaches to healing, advocating for individuals to discover what resonates with them, be it through support groups, therapy, or everyday routines that foster well-being. We invite you to explore these pathways to emotional balance, offering support and reassurance to those traversing similar challenges.
Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.
Sarah Thress
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah (00:00):
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and
Decide.
This week we are talking abouta subject that a lot of times
comes up when women and men, butespecially women, are thinking
about a divorce and they'rethinking about their kids.
And I know this was somethingthat was huge, that came up when
I was going through my divorce.
(00:21):
I was convinced that we weregoing to completely, you know,
fuck up our daughter, and it was.
You know, she was never goingto be the same and you know,
even though she was five when weseparated and all of that, and
you know, now she gets to see usboth be happy with other people
, you know she's thriving, she'sdoing great, um, you know, I
(00:45):
think obviously we all are worksin progress, um, but you know,
for um, for the purpose of this,you know, I think she's, I
think she's good, but regardless, I got into a conversation with
um Chris Pinkerton, who is umalso, um, my Reiki guru, um, so
she is absolutely phenomenal.
(01:06):
In fact, she'll be on a separateepisode talking about Reiki,
because if you're hearing thatword and you're going, what in
the world is that?
Don't worry, I did the samething, but we'll have her on a
separate episode talking aboutthat.
But she went through kind of acrazy situation with her parents
and has come out really strongand good on the other side, and
(01:29):
so I asked her if she'd bewilling to share her story so
that others could understandkind of the process that goes on
in your children's minds.
But also in case you've everbeen in a situation like this,
you can know you're not alone.
Chris (01:50):
So, chris, thank you so much for taking time to meet
with us.
Oh, you're welcome.
I'm happy to share what I can,so hopefully it helps other
people as well.
Sarah (01:54):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You, if I understand correctly,you were a little bit older, um
, when your parents divorced,but were they happy?
You know, all through yourchildhood, Like I guess, just
kind of walk us through likewhat did your childhood look
like, what was your parents'relationship, and then just kind
of what led up to everything.
Chris (02:14):
Yeah, I'd say as a younger child, yes, they were
happy.
Things seemed to be pretty,whatever you would call normal,
whatever normal is Right, right.
And my parents didn't actuallyget first until I was a senior
in college, but leading up tothat, I would say, as I got
older, probably in like preteenon up through like high school
(02:37):
years, they had a really toughrelationship, really tough
relationship.
A lot of fighting, a lot ofarguments.
My father was well, verycontrolling, very.
If I look back now I have morelanguage for it, right, because
we do know more about like highconflict people, toxic people or
(02:58):
, if you want to use that word,narcissistic, which is thrown
around a lot.
But looking back, he was verymuch like an overt narcissistic
person.
But he was a Cleveland policeofficer, so hence very, you know
, authoritative, lots of rules,very strict, but also really
(03:22):
emotionally, mentally, sometimesphysically abusive, and a lot
of that was directed moretowards my mom, but towards the
end of things, you know, morewas directed towards me and my
sister.
So I would say that at the timethis was a long time ago, so
(03:42):
I'll say, like I was, I'm in myfifties now.
So this is, you know, my.
They actually divorced in myearly twenties, um, so at that
time my mom was going back toschool, but she had been a stay
at home mom for a long time,right, and so she relied on my
father's income, and I feel likeback then, too, divorce was
(04:03):
even more stigmatized than it isnow.
Yes, even though we've comethrough a lot, right, and even
though we're in now it's 2024 aswe record this there's still a
little bit of stigma, I think,but back then there weren't that
many people going through adivorce.
So in some ways I really do feelthat my mom probably wanted to
(04:25):
leave a lot sooner than sheactually did, but she didn't
have as many choices, right, shedidn't have as much support,
she didn't have as equal of anincome, and I don't really know
what divorce laws were like backthen, but you know, at that
time what was it like?
1974 or something, before awoman could even get credit in
(04:48):
her own name, yeah, what thedate is exactly, but you know.
So they had a really volatilerelationship.
It wasn't always shown to mebut, as I said, as I got older
than it was, and I remembergrowing up and going on vacation
to see my grandparents thatlived in Florida and I remember
overhearing my parents arguingand my grandparents talking to
(05:10):
them, and hearing my grandfathersay something like you know,
you've got to promise me to keepthis together until the girls
are through school.
And so I feel like that's kindof what the agreement was is to,
and I thought it was highschool, but maybe they meant
college and I was the youngest.
So I kind of feel like that'swhat they were both striving
(05:34):
towards, even though both ofthem were miserable you know,
towards the end.
So fast forward to my senioryear of college and once I was
kind of out of the house I waslike woohoo, just because there
was a lot of tension growing up.
(05:55):
Obviously, as I said, someabusive things directed towards
me and my sister, but a lot moretowards my mom, and my mom also
developed a drinking problem.
So that worsened as we gotolder as well.
Sarah (06:13):
Was that probably like a coping mechanism for her?
Chris (06:16):
I think so.
I think there was a lot ofanxiety and depression that was
undiagnosed at that time on herpart, and so that was a, you
know, a way to cope with that,which a lot of people do.
Sarah (06:26):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Chris (06:28):
And she just was, I think , sticking it out Right.
So, fast forward to senior yearin college and I, you know
what's interesting is lookingback like I can remember a lot
about what happened, obviously,but then there's certain details
that I've blocked out.
So I feel like our minds dothat right To protect us.
Sarah (06:50):
A hundred percent.
Chris (06:51):
Yeah.
So I got a phone call and mysister, who's a couple of years
older than me, was still livingat home I was away at school,
which was about an hour away Gota phone call that you need to
come home right away.
We're having so-and-so driveyou home.
Mom is in the hospital and I'mlike what's, what's going on?
And she wouldn't really tell mea whole lot, but she's like I
(07:13):
just need you to get home.
I'm like, okay, is she okay?
Is she stable?
Yeah, she is, but we need to.
You know, take her home.
I'm like okay, is, but we needto, you know, take her home.
I'm like, okay.
Well, then it came out that, um,it was my dad that put her in
the hospital.
(07:33):
He pretty much beat the shitout of her.
Um, I don't know exactly thewhole story of how she got away
from him, because he was a bigman, she was very much more
petite, but apparently he was ontop of her and I don't know if
the phone rang.
I think the phone rang andmaybe it was even my grandmother
calling and my dad went toanswer the phone and my mom
(07:54):
somehow got up and went to theneighbor's house and they called
the ambulance to come and gether.
So dad fled and we didn't knowwhere he was.
So I'm basically then going tothe hospital to take my mom home
, to my sister, who lived awayfrom the family home, thank God,
(08:15):
but walked in, have my mom comeout in a wheelchair and like,
oh my gosh, like I couldn't evenrecognize, her Cheekbones were
broken.
The socket of when I was broken, I mean I would have passed her
in the street and didn't knowwho she was.
Right, it was just likehorrific.
So we had to then take my momback to my sister's place.
(08:41):
She had a little condo and I Iremember at the time this makes
zero sense now but my mom wantedsome of her clothes and things
from the house, but we stilldidn't know where my father was
and, mind you, he was a policeofficer.
Sarah (08:52):
I was going to say wasn't ?
Yeah, I was gonna say wasn't hea police officer?
So he probably fled, or I'mactually shocked that he didn't
just go.
Oh well, nothing's going tohappen to me, which I think a
lot of you know officers do,unfortunately yes.
Chris (09:07):
Well, we lived in a suburb of Cleveland, so we were
in.
Oh, okay, okay, it was adifferent city, um, so he fled,
but we had no idea where he wentand so I don't know, uh, bad
decision.
But we went back to the houseto get some things from my
mother.
Uh, walk into the house andboth my sister and I were like,
(09:28):
oh my gosh, there's just bloodeverywhere, like all over the
hallway, all over the carpet, um, just shocking, you know, yeah,
and went to gather some clothesand some personal things for
her and then, you know, got outas soon as we could, took her to
my sister's house and thenpretty much same thing.
Just, we weren't sure if my dadwas going to show up, if he was
(09:51):
mentally unstable, if he wasgoing to come in with a gun and
shoot us all.
I mean, it was just, yeah, itwas really bad.
So obviously that did nothappen.
He did not, thankfully, show up,but very long night, and then
(10:12):
we had to then accompany my momto court, and whether that was
the next day or a few days later, I can't remember exactly, but
my father was arrested by thatcity, by those police in that
city, and we had to go to thearraignment, basically at the
courthouse.
(10:32):
So I remember, obviously, my mombeing there still very much
hurt, broken right and again.
I don't remember a ton ofdetails about it, but I do
remember being so pissed offbecause we were in this hallway
waiting to go into the courtroomand me, my mother, my sister
(10:53):
were standing there, and then mydad was there too and they
allowed him to be around us andhe wanted to speak to my mother
and I basically stood in frontof them and just said no, you're
not speaking to her, andproceeded to scream at him in
the hallway.
I don't even know what I yelledat her, but basically it was
something along the lines oflike you almost killed her.
(11:13):
You do not get to speak to her.
You know, like this is done.
Yeah, um, get away from us, kindof thing, and I'm sure it
wasn't as nice as that, but yeah, you'd have to ask my sister,
because it's almost like one ofthose things where you're just
having like an out-of-bodyexperience, right Like there's
words coming out, but I don'teven know what they were.
Sarah (11:33):
Yeah.
Chris (11:35):
My mother didn't want to press charges against him
because he would have lost hisjob with the police.
Yeah, so she dropped thecharges, right, yeah, which was
a horrible mistake.
She drops the charges.
Uh, so he's been free to go.
(11:56):
But that was really the catalystto their divorce because even
though they had a horriblemarriage up until then, uh,
neither one of them obviouslyhad taken any steps to file and
to leave, and my sister and Iobviously knew that things were
really bad.
And after all of this was saidand done, we were like you know,
this should have happened, likeyears and years ago.
(12:18):
Maybe if that would havehappened, things would have
escalated to my mom almostlosing her life.
If that would have happened,things would have escalated to
my mom almost losing her life.
We still don't really knowexactly what happened between
them.
Obviously there was an argumentof some sort whether she was
drunk.
They were both drunk, I don'tknow.
We never really got the fullstory of what exactly happened.
(12:40):
Yeah, so obviously lots oftrauma surrounding all of that.
And then, as my mom went throughthe divorce process again,
because my father was so highconflict and so obviously
intimidating and she was stillvery afraid of him, obviously
because he almost killed her.
(13:01):
She really didn't fight forwhat she could have received.
So she gave up a lot.
Wow, she gave up my father'spension that he had yeah, so he
had been on the police force foralmost 30 years when he retired
and he had a ton of, obviously,back pay.
(13:22):
You know, overtime, all thethings and because my mom was
just wanting to be done and awayfrom him, she gave so much of
that up, which, again, hugemistake.
Yeah, so sad.
She was intimidated, she wantedto be away from him.
She just wanted to be done, butnot thinking about her
(13:43):
financial future, which, towardsthe end of her life.
Then she was on food stampswhile my father remarried and
had this beautiful home inFlorida.
So big, big inequity, right.
Sarah (13:56):
Yeah.
Chris (13:57):
And you know, after after the court um debacle, really
with my mom and just trying tohelp her through the whole
divorce process, I really didn'thave a relationship obviously
with my dad.
I went with no contact with himprobably for a good year at
least as I worked through thingson my own therapy et cetera.
(14:23):
You know, eventually I did kindof repair our relationship but
it wasn't obviously the same.
We had lots of big discussionsabout what happened and he
really never took completeaccountability for it and that
wasn't okay with me.
You know you don't lay hands ona woman, you don't.
I don't care what you're pushedto, you don't ever do something
(14:46):
like that.
So he never could quite admitthat he was fully responsible
for that whole, that whole thing.
So it was, it was very bad, itwas very traumatic.
So again, I wasn't a youngchild, but seeing them move
through what they moved through,and knowing what I knew as an
(15:09):
adult, like you know, thisreally should have been ended a
long time ago.
Sarah (15:13):
Yeah.
Chris (15:14):
Yeah.
So that's it kind of in anutshell.
It's there's more obviouslynuances to it, but uh, that was
the biggest thing.
And so then, after all of that,like the initial um time with
my mom, you know, I had to goback to college and finish.
I still had several weekswithin my time there to finish
(15:36):
and graduate.
So it was a blur of just tryingto finish up classwork and exams
and all of that.
Obviously, just my mom came tomy graduation.
My dad wasn't permitted to come.
So you know, for me, justpersonally, it was a lot to
navigate, because then I feellike also you and I talked about
(15:58):
this kind of before ourrecording that I really became
that rock confident support formy mother, which really wasn't
the healthiest thing for mebeing the child, even though I
was an adult child.
That was a lot to put on me.
She didn't rely so much on mysister because my sister just
(16:19):
wasn't really wanting to be partof the emotional part where I
was like, sure, I'll help you,of course I've got this, of
course let's do this, let's dothis we're going to, we're going
to get through this, Um, yeah.
So my sister obviously was there, but she just didn't really
want to be as involved, I think,as I.
(16:41):
I was and I wanted to bebecause I wanted to be there for
my mom, obviously.
So again now, as an adult,right in my 50s, I look back and
think, wow, that was just notgood at all, because it totally
put me in the midst of all oftheir, you know, division of
assets and arguing about thisand that and then bad mouthing
(17:04):
each other and just yeah, it wasjust not a good dynamic.
Sarah (17:09):
Yeah.
Chris (17:10):
So on top of that, or as part of the whole divorce thing,
my father was also having anaffair with a woman that he
worked with.
That was probably at least nineyears long at that point, if
not longer.
Wow, yeah.
So, as you can imagine, oncethings fell apart with my
(17:30):
parents, he went immediately.
Of course, Mm-hmm, so I'massuming he also went to her
place like the night of thebeating that he did to my mother
and yeah, mother and yeah.
And even with all of that, youknow, I just never really could
(17:51):
figure out how she was verywilling to harbor my, my
fugitive father Right, whoalmost killed his wife Right.
Sarah (17:57):
Right, like cause.
She had to have figured it out.
I mean she's a cop so she hadto have heard.
I guarantee they don't like nottalk about that stuff.
Chris (18:04):
She wasn't a police officer, but she was like uh,
administrative.
Sarah (18:08):
Oh well still, but yes no she.
Chris (18:11):
She absolutely knew what had happened.
But so, wow, it was.
It was a mess.
Yeah, it was a huge mess.
Wow, yeah, I know, wow, and so,and so I just look back on it
and go.
You know, first of all, yes, Icannot believe that my mom
(18:32):
survived that.
First of all, I don't know howshe got away.
It was by the grace of God, Iguess she had her angels helping
her, but just everything elsethat transpired.
So it was really dishearteningto see, first of all, her come
out with not much of anything 27year marriage and to see my
(18:53):
father living his best life ever.
Sarah (18:56):
Yeah.
Chris (18:57):
Um in Florida with his new wife and new house and all
the things, while my momstruggled.
Sarah (19:07):
Now, when you were going through that, I mean obviously
like that, like I can't evenimagine going through all of
that, cause I did help myparents through a divorce.
I mean I was in my forties, um,but still, like you know, it
was uh, actually no, I was in mythirties, but still, um, you
know regardless was actually no,I was in my 30s, but still, you
know, regardless.
So I understand how that is.
But you know, when you lookback on it, what do you, what do
(19:33):
you wish that maybe you couldhave done differently?
Or like, what do you wishsomeone would have done for you?
Because, really, like the ideabehind you know, like this
Thrive and Decide, I mean you'repart of the program and it
completely makes sense why youknow you want to be a part of
this group, helping women tocome out on the other side.
(19:54):
You know better because you'vebeen in it.
You didn't.
You know you weren't divorcing.
Know better because you've beenin it.
You didn't.
You know you weren't divorcingyourself, but like you've been a
part of it.
So you understand.
So I guess my thought is like,if you go back to that, you know
20 year old self, like, what doyou wish someone would have
said to you or done for you orlike been there for you or
whatever, so that maybe someoneelse that's listening to this,
(20:17):
that's so deep in it, can belike okay, there's the life raft
that I need to be able to getthrough this, or is there
anything that you could think of?
Chris (20:25):
Well, I don't even know.
You know again, this was so manyyears ago that I don't really
even know what resources wereavailable, like for my mom at
that point, and I really wishthat she would have had more of
a support team or advocates thatshe could have turned to, right
, I don't know that she reallyutilized any resources or what
(20:47):
was available, other than shewas in therapy.
Um, you know, obviously afterthat, maybe maybe before too,
but you know, now there arepeople that can, um, like um,
domestic violence shelters,right, like there's advocates
that they can assign to you asyou go through the court system,
(21:07):
right, there's people that arethere to help you with a safety
plan if you need that, andobviously that was something my
mother needed.
So if she would have tried totake the steps to leave my
father before getting the shitbeat out of her, she could have
had some things in place, right,she could have had some
(21:28):
financial help or, you know,again like a safety plan.
So I don't really know howactive, like the domestic
violence shelters were at thatpoint, but something like that
that could have helped her,obviously having more knowledge
about some financial thingswould have helped her and having
a support group, I do look back.
(21:50):
She did have female friends, butagain I feel like a lot of her
friends were also my father'sfriends.
So, having her own supportnetwork of women, female friends
, instead of relying on herdaughter to help her navigate
the divorce and to be hersupport.
(22:10):
To complain about my fatherinstead of complaining to me you
know like, even though I hatedhim at that moment, right.
Sarah (22:17):
Even though.
Chris (22:18):
I really didn't want anything to do with him.
I still didn't want to hearjust all of the character
bashing and all that.
Like that needed to be with afriend of hers or her therapist,
not not me.
Sarah (22:30):
Yeah.
Chris (22:31):
Um, and then really, for me too, as an adult, to have.
You know, even though I was,excuse me, a child, I was an
adult, but I don't, I didn'treally have any resources to go
to.
I eventually got myself intosome counseling.
But yeah, it was very.
It was obviously a huge traumaand nobody talked about trauma.
(22:54):
There were, you know,not-informed therapists that I
know of yeah um, so yeah, wewere very lacking in support.
I was very lacking in support,my sister was too.
Like we really needed to havesupport, because the other thing
that happens, especially whenyou're dealing with divorce,
(23:15):
we're also dealing with alcohol.
With divorce, we're alsodealing with alcoholism, and
then we're also dealing withabuse because, my father was
abusive as a family unit.
None of that was discussedeither.
You know a lot of that wasswept under the rug.
Sarah (23:31):
Yeah.
Chris (23:31):
Even with, like my grandparents, who knew what was
happening, a lot of theconversation about my parents'
relationship and about thingsdidn't occur until after all of
this had happened, where wecould have used some some
support from them.
Yeah, instead of not talkingabout it and keeping it a big
(23:52):
family secret, as many of otherfamilies do, it needed to be
talked about.
Sarah (23:57):
Yeah.
Chris (23:58):
And again the whole thing .
I've been hearing this a lotlately about women that are in
abusive relationships and youknow, instead of asking the
woman, why didn't you leave?
Sarah (24:11):
Right.
Chris (24:12):
Asking the man.
Why are you abusing?
Sarah (24:15):
Yeah.
Chris (24:16):
You know whether it's verbal, mental, financial,
physical.
You know why are you doing that, why are these behaviors okay
or they're not okay, but why isit being tolerated?
Sarah (24:30):
Yeah.
Chris (24:31):
Because women, you know, I think the statistic is it
takes at least 12 times beforethey leave, like attempts to
leave.
Sarah (24:38):
Yeah.
Chris (24:39):
And I feel like my mom probably did early on.
We just didn't really know itas young kids, but she felt
stuck.
Sarah (24:48):
Yeah.
Chris (24:49):
So I don't want any woman to ever feel like she's stuck
because she's not.
Yeah Right, it's just a matterof getting yourself the right
help and resources and supportand making a plan.
Sarah (25:04):
Yeah.
Chris (25:05):
Had my mom had a plan that maybe a lot of that could
have been avoided.
Obviously, had my not, had mydad not been an abuser Right,
they wouldn't have been wherethey were but again like they
were moving towards divorce.
That was just the huge,obviously catalyst that that
pushed it all into actuallyhappening.
(25:25):
Wow, which is horrible.
Sarah (25:28):
Yeah, I don't know if you've either read that Colleen
Hoover book it Ends With Us orlike seen the movie or whatever,
but something you just saidreminded me of something from
that book because I justlistened to it.
Um, because I, if if a moviehas a book, I want to read it
first or listen to it firstbefore I go, yeah, I like I
don't care, like even if it justcame out, I'm like I have to
(25:50):
read the book first, like yeah,so I just finished it.
But anyways, she was talkingabout in there and spoiler alert
.
Spoiler alert if someone hasn'tlistened to this or seen it.
But regardless, you know theytalk about how her you know the
main character her mom wasabused by her dad and she
continuously watched it and shenever understood, like why the
(26:11):
hell is she staying?
Why is she staying?
I don't understand.
And she thought her mom wasreally weak staying.
Why is she staying?
I don't understand.
And she thought her mom wasreally weak.
And then she goes into arelationship with this.
You know on paper and you knowin the first glance he's perfect
, absolutely perfect.
And then he started going intorages and like beating her and
you know she forgave him twice,and after the third time she was
(26:32):
like I'm just like, I'm done,thank God.
But it helped her to realize,okay, my mom's not weak, she
wasn't weak, she just literallylike didn't know what to do.
And men that are like that tendto also be just charming enough
to keep you, so they'll saythey're sorry, they'll promise
(26:54):
they'll never do it again.
They appeal to a woman's softside of forgiveness, which is
much softer than a man's side offorgiveness, and so then they
stay and then, unfortunately,something like what happened to
your mom happens, or worse, andyou know.
So I just think, I think that'ssomething I'm glad that you
(27:14):
know that's being talked aboutmore, um, because I think, again
, you know, violence, um,domestic violence, things like
that just weren't talked aboutbecause it was, you know, it was
embarrassing.
You felt, you know, ashamedthat you would put yourself in
that situation or you wouldallow it to happen, even though,
like, you're not allowing it.
It just that's the life thatyou're in right now and how can
(27:38):
we get you out of it?
Chris (27:39):
But yeah, absolutely, and you know, the thing with abuse
is that I did read the book tooUm, the thing with abuse is that
it starts really subtly andit's that whole um adage of have
you heard about like boiling afrog, like oh yeah, if you um,
(28:05):
if you boil a pot of water,basically, and you throw a frog
in it, they jump right outbecause it's boiling water,
right.
But if you place um a frog inlike lukewarm water and then
slowly bring the temperature up,they don't feel it and they
boil themselves to death.
And that's what abuse is likebecause, it starts off very
(28:26):
subtle, very, maybe not such abig deal.
Something happens that you know, you question, but you give the
benefit of the doubt right.
Like okay, and then if you getan apology, okay, well, that was
a one-off, uh, and thensomething maybe escalates later.
You know, it's like that wholeum, there's a wheel I remember
(28:46):
seeing like a power and abusewheel, and it's a cycle, right.
So sometimes there could belong stretches where everything
then is great.
So it does become the woman'ssecond guessing, like yeah, am I
making it more than it is?
Yeah, exactly.
And so I do feel like thatdynamic was playing out, and you
(29:07):
know, also with my mom, whichis for a lot of women too, like
financial resources weren'treally there or or access to
them.
Like there are some women too,resources weren't really there
or or access to them.
Like there are some women too,maybe, who do have the finances
to leave an abusive relationship, but they can't access it.
So there's all kinds of waysthat that whole abuse um dynamic
(29:30):
plays out and it's yeah, it'sscary and it's wrong.
And we need women to know thatthere are resources out there
for them, that they're neverstuck, that there is something
that they can do.
And so I think that's theamazing part of Thrive and
Decide too is that you've gotthis group of professionals, you
know, put together that canhelp women with any of those
(29:53):
facets, so that you're notalone and you know you don't
have to necessarily leave inthis moment, but you can start
making a plan for yourself, andthat's what I don't think my mom
had.
She didn't have a plan.
Yeah, her life blew up andforced her to react, and had she
been able to take her time andactually make a plan as best she
(30:18):
could, I think she would havehad a much different outcome
than she did like through thewhole divorce process.
So there's a lot there.
Obviously there's a lot tounpack, but it's also why I feel
so strongly in women andsupporting women and, you know,
(30:41):
allowing them to know thatthey're never alone and there's
always something that we can doand there's ways to support.
And they have to make thatdecision for themselves about
when they're ready to leave.
Right, and that's just it too.
Like that whole, I would reallypray that we can all support
women and stop saying if it's sobad, why don't you leave?
(31:04):
I just want that and maybe themovie.
It ends with us in the book.
Now that it's more out there,we'll be helpful with that too,
because it's just so damaging.
It's so damaging for women whoare struggling and who are
feeling shame and guilt aboutbeing in these relationships and
not being out Like they putenough on themselves.
(31:26):
Yeah, so let's support them andjust be.
Hey, what do you need?
What can I do to help you?
Yeah, what can I do to helpsupport you?
You know, what do you need inthis moment?
Sarah (31:37):
Yeah, is it?
Do you just need someone to sitand listen and you know, even
if it is the same story over andover again, like okay, it still
doesn't give the personlistening the right to say okay.
Well then, what are you goingto do about it?
Why do you say you know, likethere are helpful ways to say
okay.
So now you know like it soundslike this has become more of a
(31:59):
pattern.
Is there a plan that you and Icould create together to get you
out of this situation?
So like more of a positive wayof like how can I help you,
instead of like why the hellwould you stay?
Yeah.
Chris (32:12):
You know, yeah, pulling the judgment piece out of it.
Sarah (32:15):
Yes.
Chris (32:16):
And being the support, like you just said.
I think that's hugely importantfor women or anyone that's in
an abusive relationship.
Right, it could be men too, butI really just think we need to
do better when it comes to thosetypes of relationships, and
again, women supporting women,let's stop judging.
Yes, let's stop judging eachother.
(32:36):
I know we judge on the outfitsand all that kind of thing, but
you know, this is something thatwe need to do better at.
Sarah (32:44):
I agree I agree.
Now you um, so anyone that islistening now that maybe went
through something similar.
You know, like as a child theysaw this with their parents or
whatever.
And like I've known you for afew years and you obviously seem
to have like everything youknow, like you've you've done
(33:06):
really well, you've healed.
Obviously, as we've mentionedbefore, you know, healing is a
lifelong journey.
There's never, like you know,you don't just get, like your
certificate for passing grief,grief school.
There is no reason to feel anysadness about this anymore
because you've graduated Likeyou're good there's not, but
(33:27):
like I know that you, you know,have been on a lifelong journey
of becoming the best version ofyourself and things like that.
So I just wondered if maybethere was a few things that,
like, if someone was listeningand they were like man, like uh,
you know I'm drowning ineverything that happened in my
childhood, you know you justmade me realize that I went
through this traumaticexperience.
What, what do you think reallyhelped you?
(33:49):
I know you mentioned having acounselor.
You know was there, was thereanything else?
Maybe that was like reallyhelpful for you, that you think
someone listening could couldreally benefit from.
Chris (34:00):
Yes, I've done a lot of different things.
Like you said, it's a work inprogress and I do feel like we
are all works in progress.
Right, and if you are on anykind of healing journey, again
it's, it's continuous.
Like yeah, it's just notsomething that you're, like you
said, done, I'm done Right.
So I would say, you know, afterafter all this happened with my
(34:26):
parents and the divorce, I wasin my twenties and I was dealing
with a lot of anxiety,obviously after that and I
started getting really bad panicattacks.
Um, and so I did seek outtherapy and for a while I was
medicated with like anti-anxietymeds and depression meds.
(34:46):
For me personally, my bodydoesn't do well on medication.
So, it really messed me up,numbed me out really bad.
So I kind of knew I needed tokind of seek out some different
things For me.
I also found exercise to be ahuge release for me when things
were really bad.
Going through the divorceprocess with my mom, I was
(35:09):
kickboxing a lot, becausethere's nothing like kicking and
punching things that you'reallowed to, uh, to get
aggression out.
So working out was reallyhelpful for me, just for my
mental health.
And then later on I discoveredessential oils.
So I was always really morebent towards like holistic, so
(35:30):
started using oils to support meemotionally, physically, and
then same thing with somedifferent multivitamins and
supplements and stuff like that.
Eventually obviously got off myum, my meds for anxiety and
depression, and then did things,things like yoga, started
dabbling a little bit inmeditation but wasn't like an
(35:52):
all you know everyday kind ofpractice, but then had a lot of
other different life eventshappen.
So now we're kind of liketowards the later part of my
last several years and a friendof mine suggested Reiki to me,
which I had no idea and I knowwe're going to talk about that
on our other episode.
(36:14):
But Reiki is gentle, touch,energy healing and I didn't know
what it was, but I'm like sure,I will try anything.
I'm just, I will try anything.
Sarah (36:23):
Yeah.
Chris (36:24):
So went to my first few Reiki sessions and had these big
emotional releases, to thepoint where I was sobbing and,
you know, walked in there notthinking that I was going to
have that response.
But that really took me bysurprise.
And I asked my Reikipractitioner at the time, like,
(36:44):
is this what Reiki is about?
Like, am I going to have abreakdown every time I come?
And she said, no, it's just,you have so much that you've
suppressed and trauma andnegative emotion, and it's
coming out now and it'sreleasing, which is what we want
to have happen.
And she was so right becauseafter, after I started having
Reiki regularly, my life changed, like I felt so much better and
(37:10):
not that I want to say therapyisn't important, because it was,
but I felt like I made greaterstrides in my healing with
energy, healing with Reiki.
Um, so I believe that it's acombination of whatever works
for you, you know, and to trydifferent things.
I also had, um, attended someAl-Anon meetings because of my
(37:33):
mom's alcoholism.
For me personally, I I didn'tfeel like that was the best fit
for me.
I probably should have triedsome different groups and I
might still go back to that, but, um, you know, I just think
there's so many differentmodalities out there that try
things right.
(37:53):
Try things out, see what worksand kind of customize your own
healing, your own healingregimen, basically.
So now also, just being out innature is huge for me.
You know, I do a daily walkbecause my dog won't let me miss
it, but even if I didn't haveher to go with me, that's a huge
way for me to just center andground my energy, start my day.
(38:17):
A lot of people have otherthings that they find really
calming and centering.
So I would say, just seek outdifferent things, be open to try
things.
Because, like I said, I had noidea what Reiki was and I'm like
, oh my gosh, it changed my lifeand now I'm a practitioner.
So, yeah, so many things outthere and again, there's just so
(38:40):
much more awareness.
You know, if you're just evenon social media now, you can do
different support groups andthings online.
So there's so many choices outthere.
Just seek it out, yeah, yeah,and take what you like and leave
the rest Right.
Sarah (38:57):
Yes, yeah, that's what I think is a really key takeaway
is there is no right or wrongway to grieve, there is no right
or wrong way to handle anythingthat's being thrown at you, and
there is no one-stop shop,there is no school that you go
to to get through grief or toheal, or to continue to grow and
(39:22):
become the best version ofyourself, and that's what you
know at the end of the day.
That's what everybody should bestriving for is just how do I
become the best version ofmyself?
How do I give myself the bestself-care?
And that doesn't mean thatevery single day, you wake up
and you do, you know, make hugestrides, Like that may just be.
You wake up every day and youmake sure that you're, you know,
(39:42):
taking your walk or you're, youknow, like washing your face,
like you know any of the thingsthat are self-care that make you
feel better, even just you knowa half percent better.
That's what you should strivefor each day.
Chris (39:56):
Yeah, it's all about feeling better and I would say
music is also really, yes, sound, even if you just listen to
different frequencies to helpsupport your body.
But music definitely, you know,obviously you can set a tone
for yourself.
Whether you really need to havea good cry.
You can have like a wholeplaylist of like this is my
(40:17):
crying music, right, or you canhave something really happy,
uplifting, energetic, um, yeah,so I really feel like music is
important too.
Yeah, so really looking at whatmakes you feel good.
Sarah (40:30):
Yeah.
Chris (40:30):
Right, and so maybe it's a mixture of things.
Yeah, maybe some people likeswear by therapy and speaking to
a therapist and that's great.
You know whatever works for you.
Sarah (40:41):
Yeah, I totally agree, I think I mean I I mean I've been
with my therapist for over adecade now and you know she was
a huge part of my healingthrough my divorce journey.
But you know I also am learningthat you know it now is just a
small part of it.
Now.
You know I've extended out intolike Reiki once a month and
(41:03):
like doing um, you know once amonth.
And you know like I make surethat I get my hair done every.
You know seven weeks and youknow, and some people are like
that is insane and I'm like,well, you know what?
Like these are the things thatmake me feel better, that help
me, you know, to continue tojust feel better.
But on the flip side, if youwake up one day and you're so
(41:25):
sad, throw yourself that damnpity party, yep.
Chris (41:28):
Totally agree.
Sarah (41:29):
Throw the fricking pity party, Lean into those emotions,
cry it out, eat all the junk,watch all the crap, do whatever
it is that makes you feel betterin that pity party moment.
And then the next day, becauseyou've honored those feelings
the next day, that's when youcan get up and you can try to be
a half a percent better.
Chris (41:50):
Yeah, I totally agree with you.
And because if you do somepractices like that, you're
honoring the emotion that you'refeeling and you're feeling it
and then you're releasing itRight, because I think where I
got stuck with all of my traumawas that I just pushed it down
Right, like I didn't necessarilyfeel things when I needed to, I
(42:12):
just pushed it down so I couldsoldier forward and keep going.
Sarah (42:15):
Yeah.
Chris (42:16):
Right, and so then that's when things come out sideways.
So, yeah, if you're having areally hard time, give yourself
that that day.
Like you said, the pity partycry, let that out.
That's crying is our way ofreleasing negative energy and
negative emotion.
And the first thing a lot of ussay, especially women, is if we
(42:37):
start crying, I'm sorry.
If somebody's around and it'slike no, please don't ever say
you're sorry, because that isour body's way of releasing that
.
We want it out, get it out, sofeel it and then release it,
right, yeah.
So I do the same thing If I'min a really down mood or I'm not
(43:01):
feeling great.
If I can, I make a whole day ofit, like you just said, and I
stay in my pajamas and I cry ifI want to, and you know all of
that Right.
Sarah (43:07):
But absolutely the next day I'm like, okay now, yeah,
we're gonna do something elsefor sure, because I learned
whenever I didn't honor my pityparty days, my grief grew and
grew and grew, to the point thatthen I would like lash out at
somebody over something reallystupid, or I would like yell at,
you know, addison, my daughter,like over something that was
(43:29):
stupid.
Crazily enough, even at fiveshe could call me on my shit.
Like she would be like yeah mom,did you have a bad day at work
today?
Because you're yelling aboutstuff you don't normally yell
about and I'm like, wow, okay,so, yeah, so I really did learn,
like okay.
And I'm like, wow, okay, uh, soyeah, so I really did learn,
like okay.
Like I can't, I can't justshove this down and just pretend
(43:51):
everything's great, like youknow, even if that means, uh,
you know, going through the daywith a smile on your face and
then you know, like, if youdon't have a date, that you can
just throw yourself a full onpity party.
Get through the day, put yourkids to bed, do whatever, and
then throw yourself a littlepity party, like whatever it is
that's going to allow you tofeel safe and feeling those
emotions.
(44:11):
Do it.
Chris (44:12):
Yeah, there's a lot of times when I go on my walks that
I cry through my.
My neighbors are probably likewhat is wrong with her?
Um, but a lot of times, youknow, that's again my alone time
.
I'm out in nature, I'm, youknow, kind of doing a meditation
in a way, and sometimes that'smy way to release my sadness or
my you know so yeah.
(44:33):
I mean or go, you know, sit bya lake or something on a bench
and have a good cry, yeah.
It's just, we try to move pastthat so quickly, right, we try
to, like not have those emotions, but we're meant to feel all of
the emotions that we have ashumans.
We're just not meant to sit init forever, right, right, so
(44:57):
that's the other thing about.
Like I have an issue with thewhole good vibes only and that
toxic positivity, like that'snot that's not real, sustainable
and it's not real.
Yeah, and we're not meant to belittle robots with smiles
plastered on our faces.
You're meant to feel, butyou're meant to heal too, right?
(45:21):
So feel it, clear it, releaseit and move on.
Yeah, however, you need to dothat.
Sarah (45:27):
I love it.
Chris (45:28):
I love it.
Sarah (45:29):
Well, thank you so much for taking time out to share
your story.
I really appreciate it.
Uh, it is very um brave to comeon and share your story and you
know, be uh, be that.
You know little light thatsomeone listening needs to hear,
so I really appreciate it.
Chris (45:45):
Thank you, sarah, love you.
Thanks for having me.
Sarah (45:47):
Of course I love you too.
We'll see you next time onThrive and Decide.
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive and
Decide.
This week we are talking abouta subject that a lot of times
comes up when women and men, butespecially women, are thinking
about a divorce and they'rethinking about their kids.
And I know this was somethingthat was huge, that came up when
I was going through my divorce.
(00:21):
I was convinced that we weregoing to completely, you know,
fuck up our daughter, and it was.
You know, she was never goingto be the same and you know,
even though she was five when weseparated and all of that, and
you know, now she gets to see usboth be happy with other people
, you know she's thriving, she'sdoing great, um, you know, I
(00:45):
think obviously we all are worksin progress, um, but you know,
for um, for the purpose of this,you know, I think she's, I
think she's good, but regardless, I got into a conversation with
um Chris Pinkerton, who is umalso, um, my Reiki guru, um, so
she is absolutely phenomenal.
(01:06):
In fact, she'll be on a separateepisode talking about Reiki,
because if you're hearing thatword and you're going, what in
the world is that?
Don't worry, I did the samething, but we'll have her on a
separate episode talking aboutthat.
But she went through kind of acrazy situation with her parents
and has come out really strongand good on the other side, and
(01:29):
so I asked her if she'd bewilling to share her story so
that others could understandkind of the process that goes on
in your children's minds.
But also in case you've everbeen in a situation like this,
you can know you're not alone.
Chris (01:50):
So, chris, thank you so much for taking time to meet
with us.
Oh, you're welcome.
I'm happy to share what I can,so hopefully it helps other
people as well.
Sarah (01:54):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You, if I understand correctly,you were a little bit older, um
, when your parents divorced,but were they happy?
You know, all through yourchildhood, Like I guess, just
kind of walk us through likewhat did your childhood look
like, what was your parents'relationship, and then just kind
of what led up to everything.
Chris (02:14):
Yeah, I'd say as a younger child, yes, they were
happy.
Things seemed to be pretty,whatever you would call normal,
whatever normal is Right, right.
And my parents didn't actuallyget first until I was a senior
in college, but leading up tothat, I would say, as I got
older, probably in like preteenon up through like high school
(02:37):
years, they had a really toughrelationship, really tough
relationship.
A lot of fighting, a lot ofarguments.
My father was well, verycontrolling, very.
If I look back now I have morelanguage for it, right, because
we do know more about like highconflict people, toxic people or
(02:58):
, if you want to use that word,narcissistic, which is thrown
around a lot.
But looking back, he was verymuch like an overt narcissistic
person.
But he was a Cleveland policeofficer, so hence very, you know
, authoritative, lots of rules,very strict, but also really
(03:22):
emotionally, mentally, sometimesphysically abusive, and a lot
of that was directed moretowards my mom, but towards the
end of things, you know, morewas directed towards me and my
sister.
So I would say that at the timethis was a long time ago, so
(03:42):
I'll say, like I was, I'm in myfifties now.
So this is, you know, my.
They actually divorced in myearly twenties, um, so at that
time my mom was going back toschool, but she had been a stay
at home mom for a long time,right, and so she relied on my
father's income, and I feel likeback then, too, divorce was
(04:03):
even more stigmatized than it isnow.
Yes, even though we've comethrough a lot, right, and even
though we're in now it's 2024 aswe record this there's still a
little bit of stigma, I think,but back then there weren't that
many people going through adivorce.
So in some ways I really do feelthat my mom probably wanted to
(04:25):
leave a lot sooner than sheactually did, but she didn't
have as many choices, right, shedidn't have as much support,
she didn't have as equal of anincome, and I don't really know
what divorce laws were like backthen, but you know, at that
time what was it like?
1974 or something, before awoman could even get credit in
(04:48):
her own name, yeah, what thedate is exactly, but you know.
So they had a really volatilerelationship.
It wasn't always shown to mebut, as I said, as I got older
than it was, and I remembergrowing up and going on vacation
to see my grandparents thatlived in Florida and I remember
overhearing my parents arguingand my grandparents talking to
(05:10):
them, and hearing my grandfathersay something like you know,
you've got to promise me to keepthis together until the girls
are through school.
And so I feel like that's kindof what the agreement was is to,
and I thought it was highschool, but maybe they meant
college and I was the youngest.
So I kind of feel like that'swhat they were both striving
(05:34):
towards, even though both ofthem were miserable you know,
towards the end.
So fast forward to my senioryear of college and once I was
kind of out of the house I waslike woohoo, just because there
was a lot of tension growing up.
(05:55):
Obviously, as I said, someabusive things directed towards
me and my sister, but a lot moretowards my mom, and my mom also
developed a drinking problem.
So that worsened as we gotolder as well.
Sarah (06:13):
Was that probably like a coping mechanism for her?
Chris (06:16):
I think so.
I think there was a lot ofanxiety and depression that was
undiagnosed at that time on herpart, and so that was a, you
know, a way to cope with that,which a lot of people do.
Sarah (06:26):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Chris (06:28):
And she just was, I think , sticking it out Right.
So, fast forward to senior yearin college and I, you know
what's interesting is lookingback like I can remember a lot
about what happened, obviously,but then there's certain details
that I've blocked out.
So I feel like our minds dothat right To protect us.
Sarah (06:50):
A hundred percent.
Chris (06:51):
Yeah.
So I got a phone call and mysister, who's a couple of years
older than me, was still livingat home I was away at school,
which was about an hour away Gota phone call that you need to
come home right away.
We're having so-and-so driveyou home.
Mom is in the hospital and I'mlike what's, what's going on?
And she wouldn't really tell mea whole lot, but she's like I
(07:13):
just need you to get home.
I'm like, okay, is she okay?
Is she stable?
Yeah, she is, but we need to.
You know, take her home.
I'm like okay, is, but we needto, you know, take her home.
I'm like, okay.
Well, then it came out that, um,it was my dad that put her in
the hospital.
(07:33):
He pretty much beat the shitout of her.
Um, I don't know exactly thewhole story of how she got away
from him, because he was a bigman, she was very much more
petite, but apparently he was ontop of her and I don't know if
the phone rang.
I think the phone rang andmaybe it was even my grandmother
calling and my dad went toanswer the phone and my mom
(07:54):
somehow got up and went to theneighbor's house and they called
the ambulance to come and gether.
So dad fled and we didn't knowwhere he was.
So I'm basically then going tothe hospital to take my mom home
, to my sister, who lived awayfrom the family home, thank God,
(08:15):
but walked in, have my mom comeout in a wheelchair and like,
oh my gosh, like I couldn't evenrecognize, her Cheekbones were
broken.
The socket of when I was broken, I mean I would have passed her
in the street and didn't knowwho she was.
Right, it was just likehorrific.
So we had to then take my momback to my sister's place.
(08:41):
She had a little condo and I Iremember at the time this makes
zero sense now but my mom wantedsome of her clothes and things
from the house, but we stilldidn't know where my father was
and, mind you, he was a policeofficer.
Sarah (08:52):
I was going to say wasn't ?
Yeah, I was gonna say wasn't hea police officer?
So he probably fled, or I'mactually shocked that he didn't
just go.
Oh well, nothing's going tohappen to me, which I think a
lot of you know officers do,unfortunately yes.
Chris (09:07):
Well, we lived in a suburb of Cleveland, so we were
in.
Oh, okay, okay, it was adifferent city, um, so he fled,
but we had no idea where he wentand so I don't know, uh, bad
decision.
But we went back to the houseto get some things from my
mother.
Uh, walk into the house andboth my sister and I were like,
(09:28):
oh my gosh, there's just bloodeverywhere, like all over the
hallway, all over the carpet, um, just shocking, you know, yeah,
and went to gather some clothesand some personal things for
her and then, you know, got outas soon as we could, took her to
my sister's house and thenpretty much same thing.
Just, we weren't sure if my dadwas going to show up, if he was
(09:51):
mentally unstable, if he wasgoing to come in with a gun and
shoot us all.
I mean, it was just, yeah, itwas really bad.
So obviously that did nothappen.
He did not, thankfully, show up,but very long night, and then
(10:12):
we had to then accompany my momto court, and whether that was
the next day or a few days later, I can't remember exactly, but
my father was arrested by thatcity, by those police in that
city, and we had to go to thearraignment, basically at the
courthouse.
(10:32):
So I remember, obviously, my mombeing there still very much
hurt, broken right and again.
I don't remember a ton ofdetails about it, but I do
remember being so pissed offbecause we were in this hallway
waiting to go into the courtroomand me, my mother, my sister
(10:53):
were standing there, and then mydad was there too and they
allowed him to be around us andhe wanted to speak to my mother
and I basically stood in frontof them and just said no, you're
not speaking to her, andproceeded to scream at him in
the hallway.
I don't even know what I yelledat her, but basically it was
something along the lines oflike you almost killed her.
(11:13):
You do not get to speak to her.
You know, like this is done.
Yeah, um, get away from us, kindof thing, and I'm sure it
wasn't as nice as that, but yeah, you'd have to ask my sister,
because it's almost like one ofthose things where you're just
having like an out-of-bodyexperience, right Like there's
words coming out, but I don'teven know what they were.
Sarah (11:33):
Yeah.
Chris (11:35):
My mother didn't want to press charges against him
because he would have lost hisjob with the police.
Yeah, so she dropped thecharges, right, yeah, which was
a horrible mistake.
She drops the charges.
Uh, so he's been free to go.
(11:56):
But that was really the catalystto their divorce because even
though they had a horriblemarriage up until then, uh,
neither one of them obviouslyhad taken any steps to file and
to leave, and my sister and Iobviously knew that things were
really bad.
And after all of this was saidand done, we were like you know,
this should have happened, likeyears and years ago.
(12:18):
Maybe if that would havehappened, things would have
escalated to my mom almostlosing her life.
If that would have happened,things would have escalated to
my mom almost losing her life.
We still don't really knowexactly what happened between
them.
Obviously there was an argumentof some sort whether she was
drunk.
They were both drunk, I don'tknow.
We never really got the fullstory of what exactly happened.
(12:40):
Yeah, so obviously lots oftrauma surrounding all of that.
And then, as my mom went throughthe divorce process again,
because my father was so highconflict and so obviously
intimidating and she was stillvery afraid of him, obviously
because he almost killed her.
(13:01):
She really didn't fight forwhat she could have received.
So she gave up a lot.
Wow, she gave up my father'spension that he had yeah, so he
had been on the police force foralmost 30 years when he retired
and he had a ton of, obviously,back pay.
(13:22):
You know, overtime, all thethings and because my mom was
just wanting to be done and awayfrom him, she gave so much of
that up, which, again, hugemistake.
Yeah, so sad.
She was intimidated, she wantedto be away from him.
She just wanted to be done, butnot thinking about her
(13:43):
financial future, which, towardsthe end of her life.
Then she was on food stampswhile my father remarried and
had this beautiful home inFlorida.
So big, big inequity, right.
Sarah (13:56):
Yeah.
Chris (13:57):
And you know, after after the court um debacle, really
with my mom and just trying tohelp her through the whole
divorce process, I really didn'thave a relationship obviously
with my dad.
I went with no contact with himprobably for a good year at
least as I worked through thingson my own therapy et cetera.
(14:23):
You know, eventually I did kindof repair our relationship but
it wasn't obviously the same.
We had lots of big discussionsabout what happened and he
really never took completeaccountability for it and that
wasn't okay with me.
You know you don't lay hands ona woman, you don't.
I don't care what you're pushedto, you don't ever do something
(14:46):
like that.
So he never could quite admitthat he was fully responsible
for that whole, that whole thing.
So it was, it was very bad, itwas very traumatic.
So again, I wasn't a youngchild, but seeing them move
through what they moved through,and knowing what I knew as an
(15:09):
adult, like you know, thisreally should have been ended a
long time ago.
Sarah (15:13):
Yeah.
Chris (15:14):
Yeah.
So that's it kind of in anutshell.
It's there's more obviouslynuances to it, but uh, that was
the biggest thing.
And so then, after all of that,like the initial um time with
my mom, you know, I had to goback to college and finish.
I still had several weekswithin my time there to finish
(15:36):
and graduate.
So it was a blur of just tryingto finish up classwork and exams
and all of that.
Obviously, just my mom came tomy graduation.
My dad wasn't permitted to come.
So you know, for me, justpersonally, it was a lot to
navigate, because then I feellike also you and I talked about
(15:58):
this kind of before ourrecording that I really became
that rock confident support formy mother, which really wasn't
the healthiest thing for mebeing the child, even though I
was an adult child.
That was a lot to put on me.
She didn't rely so much on mysister because my sister just
(16:19):
wasn't really wanting to be partof the emotional part where I
was like, sure, I'll help you,of course I've got this, of
course let's do this, let's dothis we're going to, we're going
to get through this, Um, yeah.
So my sister obviously was there, but she just didn't really
want to be as involved, I think,as I.
(16:41):
I was and I wanted to bebecause I wanted to be there for
my mom, obviously.
So again now, as an adult,right in my 50s, I look back and
think, wow, that was just notgood at all, because it totally
put me in the midst of all oftheir, you know, division of
assets and arguing about thisand that and then bad mouthing
(17:04):
each other and just yeah, it wasjust not a good dynamic.
Sarah (17:09):
Yeah.
Chris (17:10):
So on top of that, or as part of the whole divorce thing,
my father was also having anaffair with a woman that he
worked with.
That was probably at least nineyears long at that point, if
not longer.
Wow, yeah.
So, as you can imagine, oncethings fell apart with my
(17:30):
parents, he went immediately.
Of course, Mm-hmm, so I'massuming he also went to her
place like the night of thebeating that he did to my mother
and yeah, mother and yeah.
And even with all of that, youknow, I just never really could
(17:51):
figure out how she was verywilling to harbor my, my
fugitive father Right, whoalmost killed his wife Right.
Sarah (17:57):
Right, like cause.
She had to have figured it out.
I mean she's a cop so she hadto have heard.
I guarantee they don't like nottalk about that stuff.
Chris (18:04):
She wasn't a police officer, but she was like uh,
administrative.
Sarah (18:08):
Oh well still, but yes no she.
Chris (18:11):
She absolutely knew what had happened.
But so, wow, it was.
It was a mess.
Yeah, it was a huge mess.
Wow, yeah, I know, wow, and so,and so I just look back on it
and go.
You know, first of all, yes, Icannot believe that my mom
(18:32):
survived that.
First of all, I don't know howshe got away.
It was by the grace of God, Iguess she had her angels helping
her, but just everything elsethat transpired.
So it was really dishearteningto see, first of all, her come
out with not much of anything 27year marriage and to see my
(18:53):
father living his best life ever.
Sarah (18:56):
Yeah.
Chris (18:57):
Um in Florida with his new wife and new house and all
the things, while my momstruggled.
Sarah (19:07):
Now, when you were going through that, I mean obviously
like that, like I can't evenimagine going through all of
that, cause I did help myparents through a divorce.
I mean I was in my forties, um,but still, like you know, it
was uh, actually no, I was in mythirties, but still, um, you
know regardless was actually no,I was in my 30s, but still, you
know, regardless.
So I understand how that is.
But you know, when you lookback on it, what do you, what do
(19:33):
you wish that maybe you couldhave done differently?
Or like, what do you wishsomeone would have done for you?
Because, really, like the ideabehind you know, like this
Thrive and Decide, I mean you'repart of the program and it
completely makes sense why youknow you want to be a part of
this group, helping women tocome out on the other side.
(19:54):
You know better because you'vebeen in it.
You didn't.
You know you weren't divorcing.
Know better because you've beenin it.
You didn't.
You know you weren't divorcingyourself, but like you've been a
part of it.
So you understand.
So I guess my thought is like,if you go back to that, you know
20 year old self, like, what doyou wish someone would have
said to you or done for you orlike been there for you or
whatever, so that maybe someoneelse that's listening to this,
(20:17):
that's so deep in it, can belike okay, there's the life raft
that I need to be able to getthrough this, or is there
anything that you could think of?
Chris (20:25):
Well, I don't even know.
You know again, this was so manyyears ago that I don't really
even know what resources wereavailable, like for my mom at
that point, and I really wishthat she would have had more of
a support team or advocates thatshe could have turned to, right
, I don't know that she reallyutilized any resources or what
(20:47):
was available, other than shewas in therapy.
Um, you know, obviously afterthat, maybe maybe before too,
but you know, now there arepeople that can, um, like um,
domestic violence shelters,right, like there's advocates
that they can assign to you asyou go through the court system,
(21:07):
right, there's people that arethere to help you with a safety
plan if you need that, andobviously that was something my
mother needed.
So if she would have tried totake the steps to leave my
father before getting the shitbeat out of her, she could have
had some things in place, right,she could have had some
(21:28):
financial help or, you know,again like a safety plan.
So I don't really know howactive, like the domestic
violence shelters were at thatpoint, but something like that
that could have helped her,obviously having more knowledge
about some financial thingswould have helped her and having
a support group, I do look back.
(21:50):
She did have female friends, butagain I feel like a lot of her
friends were also my father'sfriends.
So, having her own supportnetwork of women, female friends
, instead of relying on herdaughter to help her navigate
the divorce and to be hersupport.
(22:10):
To complain about my fatherinstead of complaining to me you
know like, even though I hatedhim at that moment, right.
Sarah (22:17):
Even though.
Chris (22:18):
I really didn't want anything to do with him.
I still didn't want to hearjust all of the character
bashing and all that.
Like that needed to be with afriend of hers or her therapist,
not not me.
Sarah (22:30):
Yeah.
Chris (22:31):
Um, and then really, for me too, as an adult, to have.
You know, even though I was,excuse me, a child, I was an
adult, but I don't, I didn'treally have any resources to go
to.
I eventually got myself intosome counseling.
But yeah, it was very.
It was obviously a huge traumaand nobody talked about trauma.
(22:54):
There were, you know,not-informed therapists that I
know of yeah um, so yeah, wewere very lacking in support.
I was very lacking in support,my sister was too.
Like we really needed to havesupport, because the other thing
that happens, especially whenyou're dealing with divorce,
(23:15):
we're also dealing with alcohol.
With divorce, we're alsodealing with alcoholism, and
then we're also dealing withabuse because, my father was
abusive as a family unit.
None of that was discussedeither.
You know a lot of that wasswept under the rug.
Sarah (23:31):
Yeah.
Chris (23:31):
Even with, like my grandparents, who knew what was
happening, a lot of theconversation about my parents'
relationship and about thingsdidn't occur until after all of
this had happened, where wecould have used some some
support from them.
Yeah, instead of not talkingabout it and keeping it a big
(23:52):
family secret, as many of otherfamilies do, it needed to be
talked about.
Sarah (23:57):
Yeah.
Chris (23:58):
And again the whole thing .
I've been hearing this a lotlately about women that are in
abusive relationships and youknow, instead of asking the
woman, why didn't you leave?
Sarah (24:11):
Right.
Chris (24:12):
Asking the man.
Why are you abusing?
Sarah (24:15):
Yeah.
Chris (24:16):
You know whether it's verbal, mental, financial,
physical.
You know why are you doing that, why are these behaviors okay
or they're not okay, but why isit being tolerated?
Sarah (24:30):
Yeah.
Chris (24:31):
Because women, you know, I think the statistic is it
takes at least 12 times beforethey leave, like attempts to
leave.
Sarah (24:38):
Yeah.
Chris (24:39):
And I feel like my mom probably did early on.
We just didn't really know itas young kids, but she felt
stuck.
Sarah (24:48):
Yeah.
Chris (24:49):
So I don't want any woman to ever feel like she's stuck
because she's not.
Yeah Right, it's just a matterof getting yourself the right
help and resources and supportand making a plan.
Sarah (25:04):
Yeah.
Chris (25:05):
Had my mom had a plan that maybe a lot of that could
have been avoided.
Obviously, had my not, had mydad not been an abuser Right,
they wouldn't have been wherethey were but again like they
were moving towards divorce.
That was just the huge,obviously catalyst that that
pushed it all into actuallyhappening.
(25:25):
Wow, which is horrible.
Sarah (25:28):
Yeah, I don't know if you've either read that Colleen
Hoover book it Ends With Us orlike seen the movie or whatever,
but something you just saidreminded me of something from
that book because I justlistened to it.
Um, because I, if if a moviehas a book, I want to read it
first or listen to it firstbefore I go, yeah, I like I
don't care, like even if it justcame out, I'm like I have to
(25:50):
read the book first, like yeah,so I just finished it.
But anyways, she was talkingabout in there and spoiler alert
.
Spoiler alert if someone hasn'tlistened to this or seen it.
But regardless, you know theytalk about how her you know the
main character her mom wasabused by her dad and she
continuously watched it and shenever understood, like why the
(26:11):
hell is she staying?
Why is she staying?
I don't understand.
And she thought her mom wasreally weak staying.
Why is she staying?
I don't understand.
And she thought her mom wasreally weak.
And then she goes into arelationship with this.
You know on paper and you knowin the first glance he's perfect
, absolutely perfect.
And then he started going intorages and like beating her and
you know she forgave him twice,and after the third time she was
(26:32):
like I'm just like, I'm done,thank God.
But it helped her to realize,okay, my mom's not weak, she
wasn't weak, she just literallylike didn't know what to do.
And men that are like that tendto also be just charming enough
to keep you, so they'll saythey're sorry, they'll promise
(26:54):
they'll never do it again.
They appeal to a woman's softside of forgiveness, which is
much softer than a man's side offorgiveness, and so then they
stay and then, unfortunately,something like what happened to
your mom happens, or worse, andyou know.
So I just think, I think that'ssomething I'm glad that you
(27:14):
know that's being talked aboutmore, um, because I think, again
, you know, violence, um,domestic violence, things like
that just weren't talked aboutbecause it was, you know, it was
embarrassing.
You felt, you know, ashamedthat you would put yourself in
that situation or you wouldallow it to happen, even though,
like, you're not allowing it.
It just that's the life thatyou're in right now and how can
(27:38):
we get you out of it?
Chris (27:39):
But yeah, absolutely, and you know, the thing with abuse
is that I did read the book tooUm, the thing with abuse is that
it starts really subtly andit's that whole um adage of have
you heard about like boiling afrog, like oh yeah, if you um,
(28:05):
if you boil a pot of water,basically, and you throw a frog
in it, they jump right outbecause it's boiling water,
right.
But if you place um a frog inlike lukewarm water and then
slowly bring the temperature up,they don't feel it and they
boil themselves to death.
And that's what abuse is likebecause, it starts off very
(28:26):
subtle, very, maybe not such abig deal.
Something happens that you know, you question, but you give the
benefit of the doubt right.
Like okay, and then if you getan apology, okay, well, that was
a one-off, uh, and thensomething maybe escalates later.
You know, it's like that wholeum, there's a wheel I remember
(28:46):
seeing like a power and abusewheel, and it's a cycle, right.
So sometimes there could belong stretches where everything
then is great.
So it does become the woman'ssecond guessing, like yeah, am I
making it more than it is?
Yeah, exactly.
And so I do feel like thatdynamic was playing out, and you
(29:07):
know, also with my mom, whichis for a lot of women too, like
financial resources weren'treally there or or access to
them.
Like there are some women too,resources weren't really there
or or access to them.
Like there are some women too,maybe, who do have the finances
to leave an abusive relationship, but they can't access it.
So there's all kinds of waysthat that whole abuse um dynamic
(29:30):
plays out and it's yeah, it'sscary and it's wrong.
And we need women to know thatthere are resources out there
for them, that they're neverstuck, that there is something
that they can do.
And so I think that's theamazing part of Thrive and
Decide too is that you've gotthis group of professionals, you
know, put together that canhelp women with any of those
(29:53):
facets, so that you're notalone and you know you don't
have to necessarily leave inthis moment, but you can start
making a plan for yourself, andthat's what I don't think my mom
had.
She didn't have a plan.
Yeah, her life blew up andforced her to react, and had she
been able to take her time andactually make a plan as best she
(30:18):
could, I think she would havehad a much different outcome
than she did like through thewhole divorce process.
So there's a lot there.
Obviously there's a lot tounpack, but it's also why I feel
so strongly in women andsupporting women and, you know,
(30:41):
allowing them to know thatthey're never alone and there's
always something that we can doand there's ways to support.
And they have to make thatdecision for themselves about
when they're ready to leave.
Right, and that's just it too.
Like that whole, I would reallypray that we can all support
women and stop saying if it's sobad, why don't you leave?
(31:04):
I just want that and maybe themovie.
It ends with us in the book.
Now that it's more out there,we'll be helpful with that too,
because it's just so damaging.
It's so damaging for women whoare struggling and who are
feeling shame and guilt aboutbeing in these relationships and
not being out Like they putenough on themselves.
(31:26):
Yeah, so let's support them andjust be.
Hey, what do you need?
What can I do to help you?
Yeah, what can I do to helpsupport you?
You know, what do you need inthis moment?
Sarah (31:37):
Yeah, is it?
Do you just need someone to sitand listen and you know, even
if it is the same story over andover again, like okay, it still
doesn't give the personlistening the right to say okay.
Well then, what are you goingto do about it?
Why do you say you know, likethere are helpful ways to say
okay.
So now you know like it soundslike this has become more of a
(31:59):
pattern.
Is there a plan that you and Icould create together to get you
out of this situation?
So like more of a positive wayof like how can I help you,
instead of like why the hellwould you stay?
Yeah.
Chris (32:12):
You know, yeah, pulling the judgment piece out of it.
Sarah (32:15):
Yes.
Chris (32:16):
And being the support, like you just said.
I think that's hugely importantfor women or anyone that's in
an abusive relationship.
Right, it could be men too, butI really just think we need to
do better when it comes to thosetypes of relationships, and
again, women supporting women,let's stop judging.
Yes, let's stop judging eachother.
(32:36):
I know we judge on the outfitsand all that kind of thing, but
you know, this is something thatwe need to do better at.
Sarah (32:44):
I agree I agree.
Now you um, so anyone that islistening now that maybe went
through something similar.
You know, like as a child theysaw this with their parents or
whatever.
And like I've known you for afew years and you obviously seem
to have like everything youknow, like you've you've done
(33:06):
really well, you've healed.
Obviously, as we've mentionedbefore, you know, healing is a
lifelong journey.
There's never, like you know,you don't just get, like your
certificate for passing grief,grief school.
There is no reason to feel anysadness about this anymore
because you've graduated Likeyou're good there's not, but
(33:27):
like I know that you, you know,have been on a lifelong journey
of becoming the best version ofyourself and things like that.
So I just wondered if maybethere was a few things that,
like, if someone was listeningand they were like man, like uh,
you know I'm drowning ineverything that happened in my
childhood, you know you justmade me realize that I went
through this traumaticexperience.
What, what do you think reallyhelped you?
(33:49):
I know you mentioned having acounselor.
You know was there, was thereanything else?
Maybe that was like reallyhelpful for you, that you think
someone listening could couldreally benefit from.
Chris (34:00):
Yes, I've done a lot of different things.
Like you said, it's a work inprogress and I do feel like we
are all works in progress.
Right, and if you are on anykind of healing journey, again
it's, it's continuous.
Like yeah, it's just notsomething that you're, like you
said, done, I'm done Right.
So I would say, you know, afterafter all this happened with my
(34:26):
parents and the divorce, I wasin my twenties and I was dealing
with a lot of anxiety,obviously after that and I
started getting really bad panicattacks.
Um, and so I did seek outtherapy and for a while I was
medicated with like anti-anxietymeds and depression meds.
(34:46):
For me personally, my bodydoesn't do well on medication.
So, it really messed me up,numbed me out really bad.
So I kind of knew I needed tokind of seek out some different
things For me.
I also found exercise to be ahuge release for me when things
were really bad.
Going through the divorceprocess with my mom, I was
(35:09):
kickboxing a lot, becausethere's nothing like kicking and
punching things that you'reallowed to, uh, to get
aggression out.
So working out was reallyhelpful for me, just for my
mental health.
And then later on I discoveredessential oils.
So I was always really morebent towards like holistic, so
(35:30):
started using oils to support meemotionally, physically, and
then same thing with somedifferent multivitamins and
supplements and stuff like that.
Eventually obviously got off myum, my meds for anxiety and
depression, and then did things,things like yoga, started
dabbling a little bit inmeditation but wasn't like an
(35:52):
all you know everyday kind ofpractice, but then had a lot of
other different life eventshappen.
So now we're kind of liketowards the later part of my
last several years and a friendof mine suggested Reiki to me,
which I had no idea and I knowwe're going to talk about that
on our other episode.
(36:14):
But Reiki is gentle, touch,energy healing and I didn't know
what it was, but I'm like sure,I will try anything.
I'm just, I will try anything.
Sarah (36:23):
Yeah.
Chris (36:24):
So went to my first few Reiki sessions and had these big
emotional releases, to thepoint where I was sobbing and,
you know, walked in there notthinking that I was going to
have that response.
But that really took me bysurprise.
And I asked my Reikipractitioner at the time, like,
(36:44):
is this what Reiki is about?
Like, am I going to have abreakdown every time I come?
And she said, no, it's just,you have so much that you've
suppressed and trauma andnegative emotion, and it's
coming out now and it'sreleasing, which is what we want
to have happen.
And she was so right becauseafter, after I started having
Reiki regularly, my life changed, like I felt so much better and
(37:10):
not that I want to say therapyisn't important, because it was,
but I felt like I made greaterstrides in my healing with
energy, healing with Reiki.
Um, so I believe that it's acombination of whatever works
for you, you know, and to trydifferent things.
I also had, um, attended someAl-Anon meetings because of my
(37:33):
mom's alcoholism.
For me personally, I I didn'tfeel like that was the best fit
for me.
I probably should have triedsome different groups and I
might still go back to that, but, um, you know, I just think
there's so many differentmodalities out there that try
things right.
(37:53):
Try things out, see what worksand kind of customize your own
healing, your own healingregimen, basically.
So now also, just being out innature is huge for me.
You know, I do a daily walkbecause my dog won't let me miss
it, but even if I didn't haveher to go with me, that's a huge
way for me to just center andground my energy, start my day.
(38:17):
A lot of people have otherthings that they find really
calming and centering.
So I would say, just seek outdifferent things, be open to try
things.
Because, like I said, I had noidea what Reiki was and I'm like
, oh my gosh, it changed my lifeand now I'm a practitioner.
So, yeah, so many things outthere and again, there's just so
(38:40):
much more awareness.
You know, if you're just evenon social media now, you can do
different support groups andthings online.
So there's so many choices outthere.
Just seek it out, yeah, yeah,and take what you like and leave
the rest Right.
Sarah (38:57):
Yes, yeah, that's what I think is a really key takeaway
is there is no right or wrongway to grieve, there is no right
or wrong way to handle anythingthat's being thrown at you, and
there is no one-stop shop,there is no school that you go
to to get through grief or toheal, or to continue to grow and
(39:22):
become the best version ofyourself, and that's what you
know at the end of the day.
That's what everybody should bestriving for is just how do I
become the best version ofmyself?
How do I give myself the bestself-care?
And that doesn't mean thatevery single day, you wake up
and you do, you know, make hugestrides, Like that may just be.
You wake up every day and youmake sure that you're, you know,
(39:42):
taking your walk or you're, youknow, like washing your face,
like you know any of the thingsthat are self-care that make you
feel better, even just you knowa half percent better.
That's what you should strivefor each day.
Chris (39:56):
Yeah, it's all about feeling better and I would say
music is also really, yes, sound, even if you just listen to
different frequencies to helpsupport your body.
But music definitely, you know,obviously you can set a tone
for yourself.
Whether you really need to havea good cry.
You can have like a wholeplaylist of like this is my
(40:17):
crying music, right, or you canhave something really happy,
uplifting, energetic, um, yeah,so I really feel like music is
important too.
Yeah, so really looking at whatmakes you feel good.
Sarah (40:30):
Yeah.
Chris (40:30):
Right, and so maybe it's a mixture of things.
Yeah, maybe some people likeswear by therapy and speaking to
a therapist and that's great.
You know whatever works for you.
Sarah (40:41):
Yeah, I totally agree, I think I mean I I mean I've been
with my therapist for over adecade now and you know she was
a huge part of my healingthrough my divorce journey.
But you know I also am learningthat you know it now is just a
small part of it.
Now.
You know I've extended out intolike Reiki once a month and
(41:03):
like doing um, you know once amonth.
And you know like I make surethat I get my hair done every.
You know seven weeks and youknow, and some people are like
that is insane and I'm like,well, you know what?
Like these are the things thatmake me feel better, that help
me, you know, to continue tojust feel better.
But on the flip side, if youwake up one day and you're so
(41:25):
sad, throw yourself that damnpity party, yep.
Chris (41:28):
Totally agree.
Sarah (41:29):
Throw the fricking pity party, Lean into those emotions,
cry it out, eat all the junk,watch all the crap, do whatever
it is that makes you feel betterin that pity party moment.
And then the next day, becauseyou've honored those feelings
the next day, that's when youcan get up and you can try to be
a half a percent better.
Chris (41:50):
Yeah, I totally agree with you.
And because if you do somepractices like that, you're
honoring the emotion that you'refeeling and you're feeling it
and then you're releasing itRight, because I think where I
got stuck with all of my traumawas that I just pushed it down
Right, like I didn't necessarilyfeel things when I needed to, I
(42:12):
just pushed it down so I couldsoldier forward and keep going.
Sarah (42:15):
Yeah.
Chris (42:16):
Right, and so then that's when things come out sideways.
So, yeah, if you're having areally hard time, give yourself
that that day.
Like you said, the pity partycry, let that out.
That's crying is our way ofreleasing negative energy and
negative emotion.
And the first thing a lot of ussay, especially women, is if we
(42:37):
start crying, I'm sorry.
If somebody's around and it'slike no, please don't ever say
you're sorry, because that isour body's way of releasing that
.
We want it out, get it out, sofeel it and then release it,
right, yeah.
So I do the same thing If I'min a really down mood or I'm not
(43:01):
feeling great.
If I can, I make a whole day ofit, like you just said, and I
stay in my pajamas and I cry ifI want to, and you know all of
that Right.
Sarah (43:07):
But absolutely the next day I'm like, okay now, yeah,
we're gonna do something elsefor sure, because I learned
whenever I didn't honor my pityparty days, my grief grew and
grew and grew, to the point thatthen I would like lash out at
somebody over something reallystupid, or I would like yell at,
you know, addison, my daughter,like over something that was
(43:29):
stupid.
Crazily enough, even at fiveshe could call me on my shit.
Like she would be like yeah mom,did you have a bad day at work
today?
Because you're yelling aboutstuff you don't normally yell
about and I'm like, wow, okay,so, yeah, so I really did learn,
like okay.
And I'm like, wow, okay, uh, soyeah, so I really did learn,
like okay.
Like I can't, I can't justshove this down and just pretend
(43:51):
everything's great, like youknow, even if that means, uh,
you know, going through the daywith a smile on your face and
then you know, like, if youdon't have a date, that you can
just throw yourself a full onpity party.
Get through the day, put yourkids to bed, do whatever, and
then throw yourself a littlepity party, like whatever it is
that's going to allow you tofeel safe and feeling those
emotions.
(44:11):
Do it.
Chris (44:12):
Yeah, there's a lot of times when I go on my walks that
I cry through my.
My neighbors are probably likewhat is wrong with her?
Um, but a lot of times, youknow, that's again my alone time
.
I'm out in nature, I'm, youknow, kind of doing a meditation
in a way, and sometimes that'smy way to release my sadness or
my you know so yeah.
(44:33):
I mean or go, you know, sit bya lake or something on a bench
and have a good cry, yeah.
It's just, we try to move pastthat so quickly, right, we try
to, like not have those emotions, but we're meant to feel all of
the emotions that we have ashumans.
We're just not meant to sit init forever, right, right, so
(44:57):
that's the other thing about.
Like I have an issue with thewhole good vibes only and that
toxic positivity, like that'snot that's not real, sustainable
and it's not real.
Yeah, and we're not meant to belittle robots with smiles
plastered on our faces.
You're meant to feel, butyou're meant to heal too, right?
(45:21):
So feel it, clear it, releaseit and move on.
Yeah, however, you need to dothat.
Sarah (45:27):
I love it.
Chris (45:28):
I love it.
Sarah (45:29):
Well, thank you so much for taking time out to share
your story.
I really appreciate it.
Uh, it is very um brave to comeon and share your story and you
know, be uh, be that.
You know little light thatsomeone listening needs to hear,
so I really appreciate it.
Chris (45:45):
Thank you, sarah, love you.
Thanks for having me.
Sarah (45:47):
Of course I love you too.
We'll see you next time onThrive and Decide.
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